Maybell XI - DivorceBusting.com

Nothing new to say, just opening the space.

Maybell X

Nothing new here either just saying hi Maybell!

Welcome to the new space maybell.

Is it possible to avoid talking to him anymore? S6 wanted to talk to him today. When he was done he handed me the phone and I had to talk to H. He's out seeing the sights. Didn't ask if things are ok here or anything.

I know not to expect this but it HURTS to be so utterly disregarded. He doesn't care at all about dumping this all on me and going off to have fun in a city I'd like to visit. And yes, I know he's having fun, he's off sight-seeing, he told me what he was doing.

I am struggling not to hate him and beginning to lose the fight. But then again, I'm crying... So obviously I'm hurt and disappointed as well. Is it so much to ask that my HUSBAND should at least appreciate everything I'm doing here? I think I am starting to hate him. He is so selfish.

I tried a ALL the 5LL on him during the beg&plead period and for a long time before. He told me none of it was important because HE didn't need people to feed him. Nothing I do touches him. So why do I try?

I believe his saying he wanted to spend time with me was just a selfish ploy to make him feel better and nothing at all to do with caring about me. Which HURTS.

How do I harden my heart against him? I do not want to live like this any longer.

Spending today letting the kids recharge while I catch up loads and loads of laundry and get the house ready for the coming week. I'm taking the kids out to a new restaurant for dinner. Basically, I'm spending today being a grown-up.

I deserve to be loved by a partner who thinks I'm worth getting excited about. I AM worth getting excited about. Eight friends yesterday made me feel cared for. He is not right about me. I am worthy of love and care.

Originally Posted By: Maybell

Is it possible to avoid talking to him anymore? S6 wanted to talk to him today. When he was done he handed me the phone and I had to talk to H. He's out seeing the sights. Didn't ask if things are ok here or anything.

Yea, it is possible. Just stop. Once your kids are done talking, just hang up. When my W and I have to let the other facetime, I started off not saying a word, or even being in the video. After a month or so, my W would start putting herself in the video when I was talking to the kids. I am going back to the no talking bit at this point. Try it out.

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I know not to expect this but it HURTS to be so utterly disregarded. He doesn't care at all about dumping this all on me and going off to have fun in a city I'd like to visit. And yes, I know he's having fun, he's off sight-seeing, he told me what he was doing.

I know it hurts. It hurts really bad. But that is why we detach and GAL. Detaching takes the sting away from knowing they are off doing something without us. GAL makes it easier to detach, as we begin to have our own things we are doing and are concerned about, leaving less time for us to think about what our spouses are doing.

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I am struggling not to hate him and beginning to lose the fight. But then again, I'm crying... So obviously I'm hurt and disappointed as well. Is it so much to ask that my HUSBAND should at least appreciate everything I'm doing here? I think I am starting to hate him. He is so selfish.

You cannot think of his as your Husband right now. He is not. He is really not even a friend to you right now. And of course everything he is doing is selfish. It is how they are during this. There are things my W does which if I saw a stranger do, I would never give that stranger the time of day. But...she is not a stranger, and nor is your H a stranger to you. So here we are...

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I tried a ALL the 5LL on him during the beg&plead period and for a long time before. He told me none of it was important because HE didn't need people to feed him. Nothing I do touches him. So why do I try?

Remember, believe none of what you hear.

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I believe his saying he wanted to spend time with me was just a selfish ploy to make him feel better and nothing at all to do with caring about me. Which HURTS.

No you are mind reading and the conclusion you came to is what hurts. Why not approach it as a positive, even if only a small one. Then it does not hurt, it feels good.

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How do I harden my heart against him? I do not want to live like this any longer.

Detach and GAL. I know it is such an easy thing to say, but harder to do. However, it really does help.

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I deserve to be loved by a partner who thinks I'm worth getting excited about. I AM worth getting excited about. Eight friends yesterday made me feel cared for. He is not right about me. I am worthy of love and care.

You do, and you will again. When you are ready. Maybe it will be with H, maybe someone else, but it will come.

Keep at it!

Thanks for the pep talk, pilot. You're right.

Maybell -
I have been following your stitch almost nightly. I'm not sure if anything has changed much in the past few days but a couple of nights ago you were discussing standing or not standing. I just got a chance to get on my desktop and,
I had a screen shot of this post saved on my phone to remind myself.

Actually all of the posts on that thread are filled with wisdom that we can all learn from. I am no vet, and feel like I get this DB thing wrong all.the.time But, this helped me and maybe it will help you too.

: Melissag XII - getting divorced [Re: 2ndTimeHurt]
mustardseed Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 152

I think that rather than getting rid of hope, perhaps you should just replace it with faith. Hope keeps you focused on the fantasy you want, faith allows you know that things will work out in the way that will be best--even though you can't know what that is right now. I found that being hopeful often meant lying to myself about what was really happening in an effort to make things be how I wanted them to be. Having faith, however, allowed me to let go of my ideal situation and as a result made detaching feel freeing.

Think of it right now as a road trip. He decided to go a different way, and for the past few months--even though you hated the route he chose you continued to follow him. That road never felt right to you, and even though you were following him down that road you were still alone in that journey. He was speeding along in one car while you were desperately following in your own hoping to catch up and share the ride again. In that car you could play your own music, have the temperature the way you wanted it, drive a speed you were comfortable with (all of you GALs), but you were still following his road, not yours.

Now he told you he doesn't want you to follow him anymore. That doesn't mean you won't end up in the same place later on. It means, take a path that feels more comfortable to you. Take a path that will make you feel better about being alone in that car. When you take this turn, have faith that you will be satisfied with where you end up. Then let go of the destination and enjoy the ride. Let his choices play out for him however they will and don't be concerned with it. Now it is time to do what you need to do.

Thank you Sam, that's really helpful.

You are worthy of love and care, Maybell.

You deserve better -- we all do.

Maybell - I feel like I understand how you feel today (as evidenced by my own post)... it can be so much easier if you just don't have to interact with them or hear about them at all. Out of sight, out of mind. It's hard to love or stay "in love" with someone given these sorts of circumstances.. it's probably healthy that at some point we don't really feel that in the same way anymore (otherwise we'd be stuck loving someone years after D and that's not good either!). I do think sometimes about how much it's really worth it to be in limbo. Our situations are a bit different given you have kids but I do ponder how things would change if we did D and get everything settled and then we would not have to ever talk to each other again.

I was also thinking about your prev. post about letting go and standing and what that means. For me, at least, it means that I'm just living my own life and letting H live his, while being open to the possibility of R. Whereas not standing would look more like "screw you! You don't want to be here? Fine, I'm divorcing you." Or doing something antogonistic or petty or mean that would be very difficult to overcome (post something on facebook about what a cheater and a liar he is, tell him to F-off and never talk to me again, etc.). Basically moving on with your own life but keeping the road home paved and smooth in case they do ever reconsider. I hope that makes sense. I just got back from a college football game so the sun and drinks get to me a little

KGirl, makes sense.

I made things worse by telling him he wasn't a romantic candidate. But the way he'd acted on Monday and him just assuming I want him to just come back were each quite hard to swallow. Perhaps I earned this pain I'm in.

I like what Sam said about faith and two cars. That's an image I can work with.

Que sera sera.

Originally Posted By: KGirl

Maybell - I feel like I understand how you feel today (as evidenced by my own post)... it can be so much easier if you just don't have to interact with them or hear about them at all. Out of sight, out of mind. It's hard to love or stay "in love" with someone given these sorts of circumstances.. it's probably healthy that at some point we don't really feel that in the same way anymore (otherwise we'd be stuck loving someone years after D and that's not good either!). I do think sometimes about how much it's really worth it to be in limbo. Our situations are a bit different given you have kids but I do ponder how things would change if we did D and get everything settled and then we would not have to ever talk to each other again.

I was also thinking about your prev. post about letting go and standing and what that means. For me, at least, it means that I'm just living my own life and letting H live his, while being open to the possibility of R. Whereas not standing would look more like "screw you! You don't want to be here? Fine, I'm divorcing you." Or doing something antogonistic or petty or mean that would be very difficult to overcome (post something on facebook about what a cheater and a liar he is, tell him to F-off and never talk to me again, etc.). Basically moving on with your own life but keeping the road home paved and smooth in case they do ever reconsider. I hope that makes sense. I just got back from a college football game so the sun and drinks get to me a little

I have same sitch as you no joint kids, but settlement feels like fu!

We don't have to have any r, once that's done. H is dragging his feet. Words say done finished actions with r are done. Yet with settlement he appears to be holding the rope, he expects me to know hs decision telepathically, while talking opposite of what he really means.

Even the med was totally confused.

Hi there Maybell,

No real advice to offer these days (going through a crazy roller coaster week of my own), but just wanted to send some hugs your way. The ups and downs of this are jarring to me sometimes. I am almost a year into this situation, and still break down into tears at least once every couple of weeks (this week, every couple of days!).

And, I think it may even have been you that said that growth often comes right after a period of chaos and struggle. Maybe that's where you are.

Claire, are you prescient?

Was thinking tonight about my part in this week, both with my H and with my parents. What Labug said about MLP learning her relationship skills from addicts has really stuck with me and here are the pieces I've put together:

- made myself vulnerable and invited H over at his request. The day was largely "more of the same" behavior on both sides, with him not engaging much and me being hospitable and chatty and feeling ignored.

- IC and two friends asked if I'd just said how disappointed I was in that reaction. I thought I had, but in fact I:
- got quiet and less cheerful by the end of the afternoon
- told him he wasn't a romantic contender
- asked him not to take stuff out of the house when I'm not there

- my dad said in a martyred voice "I'll just get over it" which is a phrase I've heard many times, whenever one of my parents thinks they've been done wrong.

- my parents both dodged my calls

- my mother is angry with me for not falling in line with her ideas about what to do with my marriage/husband

- all growing up, I saw my mother doing whatever my dad wanted and then complaining about it.

- my entire life I've resented my dad's career because he was never around and he always treated us like employees (and I thought he wasn't a great boss)

- as the only girl in my family, I was rarely invited to participate in family outings that were traditional "boy" events, like sporting events or fishing trips. I was also kept out of home improvement projects. My role in the family was to be picked on.

Now, I know a lot of my behavior this week was pretty passive-aggressive. I don't know if I've always been like that or if this is in response to my feeling not allowed to talk to H and so I resort to these stupid tactics because he's inaccessible. Either way, they must stop now.

My lawyer may not be working out for me, I am not sure what to do about that. My H is in an unreachable place. I don't know how to deal with this stuff with him off in Lalaland.

I don't know why I even give this brain space, but... It worries me to even consider taking him back. What would it do to my kids to have him in with the uncertainty that will always go with that? And yet, I look at Train and T0324 and I think... Who knows?

I don't think he'll turn around like that. But it's possible I've been misreading everything and he could.

Those are problems for another day. Sleep well, friends.

Yes, maybell who knows. It's all gunna end up where it ends and no one really knows what is around the corner.

Truely. Who knows?

It's only game over when your dead. Maybe next time you invite you act casual and let him talk and see where that gets you.

I'm not sure I can be around him. At all. Without going cuckoo. Is it ok to do nc for self-protection indefinitely? DBing and smiling and acting like this doesn't hurt is like chewing off my own arm.

There is nc in my r, because he chose it and now I can't stand it with ow in the pic.

I still don't think I could see him snuggling with her, or holding hands. Or anything really.

I was thinking I was paranoid about suddenly seeing him every where, know what he's like and knowing he's more than likely up to something. Is making me odd.

Although others have met her, seen her locally but to me she's a ghost. Thank god.

Hi Maybell,

Wow, what tremendous insight you have. So... maybe you are putting the pause on your DBing this particular M for the moment (not much to do while he is away anyway...)... but it is a perfect time to work on the changes you can/want to make in you. P/A behavior, as I'm sure you know, is a recipe for disaster. So, that sounds like something to work on.

And while genetics and conditioning may lead us to act like our parents, we DO have control over ourselves, especially if we are mindful and self-reflective and have the desire to change.

We can only control ourselves, but we CAN control ourselves. You can do this Maybell!

Talk through your latest interactions with your parents and your H with your IC. Maybe think through how YOU could have acted differently even if they can't change. Because that may just change how you feel in a big way. Do you see how any of your control issues are popping up in your interactions with your parents? Re read your thread and notice places where you could have DBd your parents...

I'm typing on my phone so I apologize for the brusqueness of this message. In case it sounds clunky like I'm hitting you with a 2*4...it's a foam one, wrapped in a big hug.

:-)

So Maybell, the thing that keeps coming up for me in your writing is, Maybell hasn't found Maybell yet.

Maybell is busy filling out all the roles she's been groomed to play. Whoever you are right now, I'd hazard a guess you're not real crazy about you. It's almost impossible to take care of ourselves when we think we don't deserve it.

Figure you out, truly take control or your life, the rest will come easy.

It's a process but once you begin to see and feel how worthy and intelligent and engaging and OK and OMG! witty, you are, things like your dad's P/A remark might stop you for a moment but then you'll say to yourself "Dad being dad. I'm sorry he can't communicate his feelings to me honestly but I can't fix him. I can love him but I can't fix him." Or about your mother's unhappiness, "Sorry Mom that you lived a life that wasn't happy for you but you made choices, I can't go back and change those for you. I can love you but I can't make you better." You can validate her feelings, but it's her life.

That's about setting internal boundaries. Love doesn't mean being enmeshed.

You made a statement earlier to the effect that your son hurt you because he didn't want to talk to your H, is that what you meant?

Your H is in a romance with a lover that you can't compete with so don't try. That lover doesn't ask for anything, requires no conversation, accountability or emotion. And it makes him feel oh, so good...for now. Leave him to it. You don't have to D him, or stop standing or stay standing. Just gently and lovingly, back off. You don't have to say anything but the thought process may be something like, I love you (and you do, at some level) but you have things going on that I choose not have in my life right now. I have plenty to work on myself. May you be safe, may you be healthy, may you live with ease.

I subscribe to some interesting stuff and this came today.

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When things don't go as we had hoped, we either look outside ourselves for someone or something to blame (instead of reflecting on what we could have done differently), or we go too far in the other extreme and blame ourselves too much.

There is a happy middle-ground wherein we consider possible outcomes if we had done things differently, but we don't call ourselves failures or losers just because we didn't have all the facts right off the bat.

It's very easy for us to spot these extremes when we see other people go off on a tangent about everything that went wrong except for what they could have done differently, but the trick is to catch ourselves when WE do it.

We reason with ourselves so we can feel better about what happened, but even if we walk away from that experience feeling justified, we don't necessarily walk away from it any wiser if we don't hold ourselves accountable.

And when other people beat themselves up about doing EVERYTHING wrong, we naturally steer them in the other direction, reminding them about other factors that were at play... so why can't we do it with ourselves when we feel like complete losers?

I guess that's why having honest friends is so important. They tell it to us like it is (whether we want to hear it or not), and, if we're wise enough, we take all the comments into consideration, learn, grow, mature, and try again.

Leave him to his journey and put your energy where it will do some good, your journey.

You're on the cusp. The first step is the hardest.

This morning as I was getting ready for church I let my brain roam free and a sentence I read about separation in cases of infidelity being useful for helping the injured party heal. And I realized I had never really taken the time to do that. I went into panic mode after I found out, and then I went into fix-it mode, and as much as I said I did, I really never came out of that mode. I've been in fix-it mode for fourteen months now, and have achieved only some success, and it was demoralizing. On top of that deep wound of the affair and all the lying.

So I'm not calling it letting go. I've lost so much it's hard for me to think of voluntarily letting go as anything other than just bowing to outside forces. So I'm stepping back to heal for a while. I'm taking that action to gain something, rather than just to acknowledge a loss that has already occurred.

It was nice to have that realization. Because right after that I got a couple of texts from H... and I didn't feel like I wanted to deal with him. He even was friendly (ish) and I didn't grab onto it like I usually have been doing. I'm stepping back to heal. And it's kind of a relief. Also impossible to argue with if I feel like I need to tell him specifically if he starts inviting me out again. It will be a while before I accept any invitations. I'm stepping back to heal.

You made a statement earlier to the effect that your son hurt you because he didn't want to talk to your H, is that what you meant?

One of the things I've really been trying to be aware of is how much my children struggle with my H's choices. To the extent I can, I'd like to be able to mitigate that. Of course, my ability to protect them that way is pretty limited, but it still hurts when I see them drawing away from him. I feel like I made them a promise when they were born, that they would have a certain kind of family and a certain kind of childhood and that I'd do my best for them.

I'm realizing that I'm limited in my ability to keep that promise. I've revised it to promise as best I can to give them the skills to deal with difficult people in their life, including me and their father. I can't do that if I'm behaving dysfunctionally myself.

Thank you for sharing so much helpful information with me. I'm slow to process, but it gets in eventually. I'm getting there.

I'm stepping back to heal. I look forward to how that will feel.

So it wasn't your son that hurt you, you felt <something> because the expectations you had for their lives haven't panned out.

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I'm realizing that I'm limited in my ability to keep that promise. I've revised it to promise as best I can to give them the skills to deal with difficult people in their life, including me and their father. I can't do that if I'm behaving dysfunctionally myself.

Simply, yes. And we are all limited.

Expecting more than that is what keeps us in the cycle of unhappiness. Can we grow? Sure, but it's a process. Be gentle with yourself.

Yes. You'd think having kids I would have let go of the expectations a long time ago.

One full day of serenity. Feels good.

Needing to remember today that I am stepping back. I've been fixating a little bit and I don't want to be. I can't fathom him coming back from this. He has wine with lunch and an Irish coffee for dessert on a weekday, at least with me. I don't see him acknowledging that could be a problem. So I need to step back and heal. This isn't on me. Labug said:

Quote:

Your H is in a romance with a lover that you can't compete with so don't try. That lover doesn't ask for anything, requires no conversation, accountability or emotion. And it makes him feel oh, so good...for now.

I can't change that. But I am sad to know that's what he's doing to himself.

Stepping back. Stepping back. And remembering that healing isn't all about serenity, though it's nice to enjoy those moments.

I have things to do today, I'm off to start those. He's on my prayer list, I can't do much more than that.

Maybell, I too struggle with the reality of the life I feel that I promised my daughter and the reality of what we now face. (see the end of my latest post) But I also tell myself that this is an opportunity for growth for both of us. I have the opportunity to be a role model in how to handle adversity with grace and dignity. She can learn from that, and also will learn the hard lesson that life brings changes, some of this unexpected and disappointing, but that life goes on -- and in the meantime all we can do is take care of ourselves and others while weathering the storm, knowing that it will one day come to an end.

I do struggle with how long I want to stay in the storm, though, feeling unempowered. But my uncle reminded me that "smooth seas don't make good sailors." So I try to look at this whole experience as a learning opportunity, a chance to embrace change and see what might come of it, hopefully for the better.

Well, my mother is still ignoring my calls. I didn't send a card because they've moved while they build a new house and I don't know the address, but I guess I'll send one with an apology to the old house and just let it get forwarded. I was supposed to stay with them for my brother's wedding but I guess I'll get a hotel instead.

I think I have a lot to heal from here. Guess it's going to be a day for acknowledging sadness and figuring out how to cope with all this hurt.

Maybell, sorry you are having a particularly hard time right now, chaos with your parents on top of everything else. Wishing you peace for today.

My mother finally called back. So silly - all over a Facebook post.

Ran a couple of errands with my good friend today. She asked about my status and I realized... I'm just tired of talking about him. Tired of thinking about him. Tired of wondering what he's doing and why he's making these choices. I'm not feeling serene like yesterday but it is nice to not feel so utterly invested anymore.

I hope he finds his way because he and my kids deserve for him to be healthy. I don't even want to think about what it would be like if he and I came back together. I'm too tired of the drama to imagine it. I'm interested to see how my life evolves from here.

God grant I can persist in this place after he returns from his trip. That's my greatest desire at the moment.

Maybell,

I hear you. I told friends and my family that I absolutely do not want to discuss stbxh. If I want to, I will let them know. Not much to chat about. It is exhausting with the questions.

Focus on you, Maybell. You sound like a great mom and a wonderful person:-)

Another person who is just tired of it all, so I totally get what you mean.

I don't want to talk about it with anyone. Not my H. Not my IC. Not my friends. No one.

I'm just flipping pooped.

Wow. This is contagious. I was just thinking yesterday that I'm so exhausted. I was feeling sick, and the thought of having to out on my best self, my PMA, worrying whether the house was clean enough or whether I had done whatever D3 related tasks I was supposed to do in order to show that I am someone only a fool would leave...

I felt tired of doing that. I felt like, I don't give a rat's tush whether he thinks the house is a mess or that i look a little cranky. That's life. He wants a perfect life? I wish him well in finding it. I want a partner who will accept me and stand by me, warts and all. I want someone who sees my value and will work just as hard as me to create happiness together. Someone who is at least willing to talk about it and take steps together as a team to fix it.

I've totally hijacked you, Maybell. I'm sorry. This struck a chord with me, obviously!

You didn't hijack me, you read my mind. Cheers to us!!!!

Hi Maybell, sorry to hear about the continuing drama with your parents. You don't need that nonsense right now.

I hope you can hold on to your serene place when your H returns from his trip.

Sending good thoughts!
Hugs, Lisa

Maybell,

Just to chime in about parents. Boy, I hear you. The very first thing my parents said when we sat down to talk after I told them H left was... well, sufficient it to say was NOT empathetic or helpful to me.

I've been DBing my family, too! PMA, boundaries, validate concerns, detach. It has helped A TON. They get to feel how they feel. And how they feel or what they say does not have to ruin my day. (Easier said than done, yesterday was a real test, especially when my blood sugar was low!!)

It's a full moon, people

We're all going mad.

Maybell, just re the wine + Irish coffee with lunch. I'm not saying it ISN'T a problem, but my parents regularly will have a couple of drinks with lunch, and I don't believe they have a problem with drinking. Unless there is more info you're excluding, like what the drinks do to his mentality.. I'm not sure that I would see that as a huge issue...?

I don't think a couple of drinks with lunch occasionally is a problem, but it's every time I see him. And I'm absolutely certain he's having several drinks per evening, too, and I know from the credit card what he's buying. And his dad drinks in a way that is beyond worrisome.

I'm not a prude about drinking. I've never been comfortable with how much he drinks, but I hadn't been troubled by it till the last couple of years.

Right, I see why you feel the way you feel, then. My ex was certainly drinking more than I thought reasonable, but in May he mentioned he had cut down. His father was an alcoholic, so I was pleased he had taken that step.

I hope you don't think I was accusing you of being prudish.

It's all good.

Maybell, I meant to tell you that I used your tag line ("all will be well, etc.") last night to redirect thoughts of H, and it was incredibly helpful. Thank you for that!

Originally Posted By: Maybell

I'm not sure I can be around him. At all. Without going cuckoo. Is it ok to do nc for self-protection indefinitely? DBing and smiling and acting like this doesn't hurt is like chewing off my own arm.

Yes.

But...let go of the black/white, either/or thinking if you can.
NC is for self-protection and it's for today. When you wake up tomorrow, you can decide what you need to do for that day.

You're attempting to live far in the future when all you really have is today.

About the amount of drinking, I want to say this because I think many people avoid getting support for themselves by thinking "X doesn't drink THAT much." "X isn't an alcoholic."

The defining factor, is the drinking a problem for YOU? Does it affect your R with that person? Does it make you uncomfortable?

Do you need support?

Ahoy, I'm glad my tag line helped. It helps a lot... When I remember to use it.

Labug, yes, his drinking is a problem for me, though I tend to second-guess myself because I come from a family where drinking was seen as a stupid waste of money and a sign of moral weakness, whereas H comes from a place where it was a thing to do in itself. Where is reasonable? I don't know but the question causes me anxiety.

I've reduced my contact with him and the space is helpful. There is a major kid event on Saturday that will mean I have to be around him, or at least in his vicinity and possibly a celebration lunch, but this space is helpful for getting me in a place where I can handle that.

He has said a couple of things in the last few days that I would have jumped all over earlier this week, about how he can't wait to get home, am I doing ok, etc. they are just rolling off my back. And today I feel happy. There are so many things in my life that are good, or exciting. I have so much potential in front of me. If everything were perfect I wouldn't know how blessed I am.

Oh, and I'm sure you will all be thrilled to hear I'm scheduling a pedicure for this week.

Where did reasonable come from?

YOU are allowed to decide what's working for you and what isn't? That's a new concept for you, I'm thinking.

Don't worry, it was for me to, in all areas of my life.

You can get past that.

Have I mentioned Brene Brown to you? Google is your friend on this one. (TOS)

Labug, I've been hearing Brene Brown from you and also from a real life friend who has been going through a lot the last few years. I guess the universe has to whack me pretty hard to get my attention.

I'm hitting the library in a couple of days, I'll put her and Pema Chodron on my list.

One thing, though... Growing up, you learn a certain kind of reasonable from your family. When you have a family like mine, with parents who are extremely insular, suspicious, and rigid, you find yourself emerging into adulthood and learning that the world is very, very different than you were taught. Since late high school, I've been on a program of trying to figure out what I learned that is valuable, and what needs to be discarded. I married fairly young, so in many ways I swapped my FOO normal for my in-laws' normal... And theirs doesn't work for me either. So it's true that I don't entirely trust my own judgment because I'm not yet sure what is mine. But I'm working on it.

Maybell -

I think you and I must be related.

Growing up, I thought my normal was pretty good! Then I met H and he came to family things with me and his reaction was, "Whoa! This group totally cuts everyone down ALL THE TIME!" And it's true. Holy cats. My normal not so nice or normal.

H's family, which is very supportive *of the family*, has its own knee-deepness of crazy. MIL would say to me, "Don't hold your crying babies! You'll spoil them!" and was awesome at really crapping on the toddler boy when he was little. Different family, different crazy.

Really really would love to break the cycle and raise two well adjusted kids. Whoops.

I saw a mug a few years ago that said "The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well."

One of my mentor moms said her goal was to raise her daughters well enough that they could pay for their own therapy.

My goal is to raise my kids to have communications skills that give them at least a fighting chance of having great relationships with everyone they encounter.

I love "holy cats." I think I'm going to adopt it.

Haha - I say holy cats all the time. I think I got it from my Grandfather, a presbyterian minister who did not swear.

Ah....I used to think I had great relationships with people. LOL. Gah.

So - in the GAL column (hijacking? Sorry?) I'm maybe joining a bible group that will start next week. What do I have to lose?

Last night I got a text at 1:30am from H saying he hoped he didn't wake me but he was sending his flight information. And he hoped everything was OK at home.

Why couldn't he have sent that as an email? Is he wanting to disturb me? Or is he just that inconsiderate?

So he gets home this afternoon and so far as I know there is no plan for him to see the kids till he takes them for the weekend on Friday.

As D11 left for school this morning I said "I love you" and she said "Meh." That's been her thing this week and as much as I know it's in the nature of a kid that age to be unkind to her family, I'm getting pretty sick of it. She knows she's hurting me and she's doing it on purpose. Her character is in many ways like my H's and it makes it VERY DIFFICULT to cope with her sometimes.

This morning was rough and I'm feeling angry again that he decided to just dump our life on me and bolt, even though he wouldn't have dealt with one single one of the things that was a problem today, or been in any way a support to me when I dealt with it. So I'm torn between wondering why I would even consider wanting him back and feeling exasperated that he's left this all to me and off living his selfish little life in his selfish little bachelor pad and sending me bleeping texts at 1:30 in the morning.

It's getting harder to read other people's stories that include any kind of cheerfulness or friendliness with the WAS. I want that... and also I am so angry with him for choosing this stupid selfish route that I have no desire at all to attract him back. IC is one of the things on my list for today so I suppose everything I've been able to turn away from is floating to the surface in anticipation of that.

I'm trying to step back to heal. I've done a better job of not spinning out of control, especially during the night, and H is no longer my first thought in the morning. I'm sleeping better and I actually ran yesterday, which was great. For today, I'd like to rediscover my PMA and my sense of humor and get more job searching done.

God help me, how am I supposed to do all this when I have a full time job as well as everything else I'm responsible for? Where am I supposed to find the patience for all the curve balls and behavior? I don't even know how I would ask him for help because he's so unavailable.

Some people have said that resentment is when we are angry at someone for not meeting needs we decline to meet ourselves, but seriously... I have the NEED to have a partner who lives up to his responsibilities and I don't think it's unhealthy to be angry with him for walking away.

I wish I hadn't heard from him. I was doing so well.

Maybell,

Sheesh, I remember being where you are right now. It's unpleasant, at best.

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Why couldn't he have sent that as an email? Is he wanting to disturb me? Or is he just that inconsiderate?

Well, as someone whose kid is on the east coast and I'm here, I have this dynamic sometimes. I either turn my phone on silent when it's up in my room or I keep it down in the kitchen when I sleep. I get the texts when I come down. They send the texts because they don't want to wake you by calling. So kinda rethink that one and give him the benefit of the doubt?

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So he gets home this afternoon and so far as I know there is no plan for him to see the kids till he takes them for the weekend on Friday.

Maybell, I'm not swinging a 2x4 but I need to tell you that you absolutely *have* to find a way to engage him so that he owns up to his responsibility. Get a parenting plan! Until you get one that is legally recognized, you need to tell him that he has to step up to the plate when he's home. And hold him to it. Because it has a direct correlation to this:

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As D11 left for school this morning I said "I love you" and she said "Meh." That's been her thing this week and as much as I know it's in the nature of a kid that age to be unkind to her family, I'm getting pretty sick of it. She knows she's hurting me and she's doing it on purpose. Her character is in many ways like my H's and it makes it VERY DIFFICULT to cope with her sometimes.

This is your cue to realize that your kids are being affected by this situation. They need clarity. They need consistency. And they need both of their parents. On that note...

... what I'm saying might come across as a 2x4. Again, it's not. She's telling you that she needs you to be the go to parent. Perhaps she's angry with you for being emotionally messy. This is when I got my then D9 into counseling. I had to put her in for a few months every year or so just to keep her moving along. She needed a safe place to vent to someone who could understand exactly where she was emotionally. She didn't feel that her dad or I were in a position to put aside our own feelings to help her deal with hers. She felt we'd be too defensive.

On that same subject, she's 11. You've got to get tougher skin. If you think this is tough, wait until she's 16-18. If there is anything worse in this world than a 17 year old girl, I haven't encountered it. I'm not saying you should be allowing disrespect or a blatant disregard for the feelings of others in the family. If she's disrespectful. calmly call her on it. Let her know it's not acceptable. But you have to know that if you are holding everyone to that standard, you have to do the same. And that means not allowing YOUR feelings to enter the parenting equation.

I'm not saying it's easy, Maybell. It isn't. But your children are small and they need to know that the one person who will *always* have their backs is you. I can see you saying, "but I do!" We know you do. Truly. But it's your actions and how you wear your emotions that sometimes put up those caution or stop signs. So learn how to completely fake it around them.

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I'm torn between wondering why I would even consider wanting him back and feeling exasperated that he's left this all to me and off living his selfish little life in his selfish little bachelor pad and sending me bleeping texts at 1:30 in the morning.

What helped me when I started feeling like this was to verbally remind myself that I had choices too. It was always an option for me to file for D and get some clarity, answers and direction. So if you choose to live in this state, you're going to have to force yourself to acknowledge that you have choices.

It won't take away your anger at the situation, nor will it miraculously get you the help you need. But if having no answers is the part that gets you absolutely wiggy and unhappy, know that you always have the option to exercise that right too. Nobody would think less of you for needing some stability - for yourself and more importantly, for your children. It just might be that the courts will have a better chance at forcing your H to be a parent to your children. I know it's true for a friend of mine (both are my friends). The H always made excuses for his work. To his credit, he works a job that is his true passion. But he was never around for his daughter. All that changed when they got divorced. He's a really great dad and finally had to follow the court's plan for being present.

Too bad it took that drastic measure to get him to do the job. But in the end, sometimes people do what they need to do when they're forced to do it. I realize your H travels. The courts will take that into consideration - even if you don't file for D - in a support formula. It would allow you to schedule a sitter or nanny to help you out so you don't lose your marbles. I only had 2 kids - you have 3. You have to take care of you, Maybell.

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God help me, how am I supposed to do all this when I have a full time job as well as everything else I'm responsible for? Where am I supposed to find the patience for all the curve balls and behavior? I don't even know how I would ask him for help because he's so unavailable.

LOL, this was me too. I don't know how. But I did it. I prayed for serenity and for a peaceful life. It had bumpy roads, but in the end, my girls and I are all very close. Well, except for that 17 year old blip on the radar.

Okay, here goes my true whack:

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I have the NEED to have a partner who lives up to his responsibilities and I don't think it's unhealthy to be angry with him for walking away.

It's up to you to figure out how to get him to agree to live up to them. If he doesn't, what's plan B? If he were dead instead of off in la-la land, what would you do?

Put this anger to use, Maybell. Anger is the call to do something different. Some things are in your control. So figure out what your plan is and then execute it. You have to be fluid and flexible sometimes, but have a game plan.

And if I were you, I'd also call a family meeting. Let the kids know that you know this is hard on them too. Ask for their patience and understanding with you and offer yours in return. And let them know that you expect them to be helpful to the household when they can and that from here on out, you want to work on having a peaceful house with respect.

It might sound like it's crazy, but I can tell you it really worked for me. My D20 became a very responsible person, and she realized that she had some power in the emotional thermostat of our house. For the most part, she didn't act out. She figured out that I was a whole lot more inclined to give her my trust and benefit of the doubt when she acted like she deserved it. Again, there were bumps in that road. But I laid the ground work when they were young, and I stuck to it. I had consistent consequences for actions because I knew if I chose the lazy route, I'd pay dearly later. I learned how to weather the tantrums and the no I love yous. Occasionally, I heard how mean and strict I was. Instead of feeling guilty, I'd answer back, "Good! Then I'm doing my job!" She'd huff off and give me the silent treatment for awhile. Now that she's in college, she tells me all the time that she appreciated the consistency.

So hugs for having to deal with these feelings. I know how awful they are. But it really helped when I reminded myself that I always had choices. They may not be great or what I wanted, but I had them. And when I wasn't okay with where I was and needed his cooperation, I forced that conversation.

So what are your goals to make it through?

Betsey

BTW, Brene Brown is awesome. Google her TED talks and listen. It was my first assignment when I put myself into IC earlier this summer. There's a lot there. It might help you refocus and concentrate on your own feelings. I know it helped me.

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I have the NEED to have a partner who lives up to his responsibilities and I don't think it's unhealthy to be angry with him for walking away.

The anger isn't unhealthy, it's what you do with it and what you expect it to do for you that can be unhealthy.

This is the rest of the above post.

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I have the NEED to have a partner who lives up to his responsibilities and I don't think it's unhealthy to be angry with him for walking away.

The anger isn't unhealthy, it's what you do with it and what you expect it to do for you that can be healthy or unhealthy.

Holding on to it creates unhealthy resentment. Using it to show you where you need to grow and change is healthy. Allowing it to show us our boundaries is healthy. Feeling it when someone has overstepped our boundaries is healthy.

About your D, and this is going to sting a little, usually the people who evoke the most emotional response from us are those who have traits we share, traits that we don't like in ourselves.

Your D11 may be very like you (and she's the firstborn) in that she likes order, she likes to know what's coming next, she likes her ducks in a row. And now all she sees is chaos and the 2 adults she thought had it togehter, don't.

She's hurting and she's getting your attention in the only way she knows how. Kids act out for a reason.

Check out some kid's therapists. She does need a safe place that's just about her. Be proactive.

I big breath-stopping hug is being sent to you. These situations shake us to our core, and make us look at things that we've been hiding from for a long time. And when we think we've finally peeled that onion, there's another layer.

Keep peeling. We're here to support you.

OK, I'm fresh back from IC and a few things got teased out there that are worth putting here for context.

My biggest frustration at the moment is the house. It's large, it's complicated, it's my responsibility. We were just barely moved in when I learned about the affair, and at that point everything kind of froze. Pictures sat on the floor for months waiting for me to hang them. Papers from the kids' old school were never sorted. Stuff that didn't have a home still doesn't. I'm unfrozen now and working to catch up, but because so much time passed but life didn't stop, I'm neck-deep in backlog and feeling overwhelmed. On top of that, winter will be coming and if it's as rough as last winter...

So IC has an organizer who will help me go through it all, purge, and get some systems in place so that it all works more smoothly once I go back to work. That will be huge. That solved most of my tears right there.

WRT my daughter... I know. This is a tough age. I realize that, which is why I vented about it here rather than complaining to her when she said it. For context, she's had a sore throat and stuffy nose the last two days and isn't feeling well (but well enough to go to school) and had kind of sort of destroyed her backpack while trying to wash it because she was too impatient to wait for my help. So I know not to take her snottiness too personally. She's been really helpful, not to mention a touch clingy, most of the time the last few months. She did ask me the other day if I was spending Thanksgiving with them and when I said I didn't think so, she flinched.

Probably counseling would be good for her. I try to be available to talk about things, but something about me isn't working for her. I've gotten advice from my IC about ways I could approach her that would help her open up and have had kind of limited success. I just want to offer counseling in a way that avoids the problem my friend described, that he wanted his parents to talk to him, not some stranger.

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Maybell, I'm not swinging a 2x4 but I need to tell you that you absolutely *have* to find a way to engage him so that he owns up to his responsibility. Get a parenting plan! Until you get one that is legally recognized, you need to tell him that he has to step up to the plate when he's home. And hold him to it.

That's not a 2x4. I just don't know how to do it. My lawyer has pretty much punked out on me so I'm going to have to find a new one and start from scratch, so that's more time. And the agreement as it's written right now (which H hasn't even seen yet anyway) says "every other weekend and weeknights as practical." The time he's supposed to return them on weeknights is an hour later than the time he'd be picking them up, and I'd be keeping them for all the hard stuff anyway. So I just really do not know how to implement a weeknight visit/responsibility from him. The extent of his responsibility before he left was to come home and have dinner and then EITHER clean the kitchen OR put the kids to bed, and then go sack out in his throne and play xBox. I don't know what I would ask of him. The ONE time in the last five months that I forced the issue he took them out to eat and brought them home 90 minutes later and asked me to go along as well (I didn't).

If you have suggestions for how to do this I welcome them. I know that once I'm employed I'm going to get an afternoon babysitter for all three kids and then these issues will be moot. Though they still won't have an active dad.

I KNOW the kids are being affected by this. I can tell. I also can tell that except for the 11yo snottiness, which is normal, that they know I've got their backs. I can see it in the way they lean on me, in how my D11 asked me to help with her homework (which she didn't need), in the way they share their interests with me. But I don't know how to make it better for them.

I am learning to let things with H roll off my back better so I think from here I will be doing better for them myself. It's getting easier.

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If he were dead instead of off in la-la land, what would you do?

When I saw that I wrote that I NEED a partner, I realized I sounded like a spoiled brat. Of course I don't NEED a partner. I wanted one, we made a number of choices based on our partnership, and the burden of living with those choices without the partnership that was supposed to make them work made me angry.

I think I have to 1) get the help my IC suggested with getting the house under control and 2) acknowledge that this year is going to be tough. But manageable tough. If he had dropped dead, I would be taking this year to get the house under control so I could sell it in the spring. Which is my plan for this year anyway, so I'd might as well just embrace it and carry on. I am just so sick and tired of the work of selling houses when I just want to LIVE IN THEM.

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And if I were you, I'd also call a family meeting. Let the kids know that you know this is hard on them too. Ask for their patience and understanding with you and offer yours in return. And let them know that you expect them to be helpful to the household when they can and that from here on out, you want to work on having a peaceful house with respect.

I actually did this about two months ago, and it did work. I guess it has to be a renewable thing. (I had a "talking stick" we had to pass to have permission to talk -- it's a naked Barbie, the first thing that came to hand -- the kids thought it was hilarious.) Thank you for reminding me of something that I had forgotten works.

Well, you ladies must have sent me some great vibes because the attorney just called with hours for me and I get to have my meeting to move the legal stuff into place. I'm going to ask her to put language in there providing that he MUST take charge of the kids some amount midweek. I'm scared and reluctant to take this step.

I can't tell if this is a good idea or not... but when I put the legal separation agreement in front of him, I'd kind of like to say "I don't want to take this step, but I feel that the way things are going I don't have enough support or security from you to do without it. If you can commit to the responsibilities outlined in this document without our having to formalize it, it would simplify both our lives. Here's what I need from you to avoid taking this step."

The things I would list would be:
1. The increased presence in the children's lives and responsibility for them, laid out with whatever specificity I can manage.
2. A notarized document stating that it is his intention to not change anything about our finances without my prior knowledge and consent.

Failure to do both those things would trigger implementation of the legal separation.

Thoughts?

Thank you both so much for the interest you've taken in me.

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I try to be available to talk about things, but something about me isn't working for her. I've gotten advice from my IC about ways I could approach her that would help her open up and have had kind of limited success. I just want to offer counseling in a way that avoids the problem my friend described, that he wanted his parents to talk to him, not some stranger.

For context, you aren't turning your back on her or ignoring her and just shipping her off to a counselor. You're giving her another outlet. As you have trouble being vulnerable, so may she.

About the H stepping up\, if someone else wrote that paragraph, what would you say?

I'd probably dodge it.

So in addition to the other areas I need to work on, learning to be vulnerable makes the list? I hadn't identified that one yet, but I can see how that's true.

Maybell, your daughter probably feels safe to be snotty with you, which you could take as a sign of her trust. She knows your love is unconditional, so she can be free to express her (sometimes difficult) emotions in that way. My daughter shares her sadness (but also her snotty teenage angst) with me, but not with H because she doesn't feel safe sharing her feelings with him.

Maybell,

Just my paltry 2 cents. That additional paragraph sounds a bit antagonistic to me. The "step up" or else bit. Here is the deal. I don't know if you and your h will R. However, regardless of what happens, you do share kids. So while I get your frustrations, I don't think saying "step up" or I will take legal action will be the best course of action. You can't *make* your h be a better father. Yes, he should pull his weight, however, ultimately his R with the kids is his.

Oh duh

Thanks.

I do not want to have a legal separation. I was looking for a way to finish writing one up and put it in front of him without having to actually advocate for executing it.

Sorry for ever-posting. H just sent a text asking if I'm mad at him and I don't know how to answer.

Maybell,

I'm glad you took the post as it was meant.

FTR, we were not legally separated when we went to a mediator to hash out a parenting plan. It fell under a Memorandum of Understanding. They were "rules" that the court would order if we were filing for legal separation or divorce (in Colorado, it's one and the same). I wasn't feeling the pressure to initiate legally, but I wanted something that we could use so that we'd know what to expect going forward either way.

My girls were 8 and 5 (almost 9 and 6) when my XH moved out. So we had a pretty similar plan as the one you said. He took them to dinner or back to his place for dinner on M & W evenings and every other weekend. As they got a little older and we were in the swing of things, it turned into overnights on M and W for my youngest and some of the time for my oldest. Her schedule dictated that, and her dad totally understood. But she also understood that I wasn't cooking dinner on either of those nights, so if she thought otherwise, I reminded her.

She was at least 15 then, though. Anyway, make it so that you can work out or get a massage or go to dinner with friends while he's in charge (and in town).

Our mediator told my now XH that it would factor into the child support formula, so if he consistently bagged on me, I could reapproach and ask for more $ to accommodate having to parent. My XH isn't one to dodge his kids, so he didn't need the financial threat to keep his word with them. But I have several friends who only got this because of the threat.

Just so you know where your leverage is, in those days whenever he had to travel, I asked for "reimbursement" for weekends that were my scheduled weekends. It wasn't that I didn't want or love my girls. I did and do. And I missed them. But I clearly knew that I needed my own time too. Even if I didn't get quid pro quo, he understood from the get go that he would have to give to get.

In our session with the mediator, we also set holiday/birthday schedules, the days that the kids had off from school, breaks and vacations. Those are all specified in that MOU that was eventually converted into our D decree. And we don't use any of it anymore.

The first year we followed it to a T and were all miserable. The next year, one of us raised the white flag and we started to make some changes. But it was really important then to have something in writing that the court would enforce if things went awry. I needed it, Maybell. And I needed the kids to know that I was going to make every attempt at keeping their dad in their daily life to the extent I could.

I won't lie... in the beginning, he was a real a*hole. But I just let it slide off my back, I didn't react, and as he could see the girls move toward me, he stepped it up and decided to be nicer about everything. I think he realized that he was being a childish a$$ and decided he didn't want the girls to see me act nice and him like a butt.

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She did ask me the other day if I was spending Thanksgiving with them and when I said I didn't think so, she flinched.

Maybe you could come back to her and say something like, "I know you want things the way they used to be. I'm not sure if that's going to happen. But let me and Dad see what we can do." And leave it at that? Let her see your efforts to create something that will work best for her and her siblings. (Believe me, I know that you can read that it probably won't be what YOU want, I get that.)

I'll tell you personally that the first year, I had TG and he had Christmas. It was AWFUL. We were all collectively miserable. I'd go so far as to say pathetic. Pathetic with a capital P. And you add me being really angry that I wasn't spending Christmas with my girls, and you get a mess. (I spent it with my friend and her family and it was fine and fun in the grand scheme.) Whenever he brought the girls back home, he waved a white flag. He told me that my now D20 cried all day, had a difficult time eating, and didn't enjoy opening up her gifts. My youngest sulked along with her. And while he was trying to be festive, they got sulkier. LOL. From that point forward, we started sharing holidays as a family again. And we never went back. It was so much easier on all of us. There's hope for everyone. I realize it might not work for other folks, but we both realized it was so much better for the girls to put up with our own discomfort.

BTW, you didn't sound bratty to me. I got it. And I fully understand and agree that this isn't what you or I or any of us here wanted.

Try to take the path that is least likely to be interpreted as combative. And maybe even vulnerable! I, too, have issues here. And the funny thing is that now I can clearly see that those issues are directly correlated and due to my trust issues. Go figure.)

Ok, time to work.

Hugs,

Betsey

Maybell,

Your h knows you aren't happy with the way things are. It could be a bit of bait ot perhaps he's feeling guilty. That's all mind reading. However, he knows you aren't thrilled with the arrangement.

There isn't a right answer in my opinion (but what do I know). You can either say "I've just been busy" (honest). Bigger question is how do you think you should respond?

I said "It's hard to explain." He agreed to leave it at that. He invited me to lunch on Friday and with him & the kids on Saturday. I told him I'd think about it and came back here to lay out my case when I realized I was trying to punish him for circumstances rather than actual problems. I realized that was counterproductive so I accepted the Friday invitation, but said I wasn't sure about Saturday because of a GAL thing I have that day.

I'm not sure how to conduct myself on Friday. I could practice vulnerability... But that lays me open in ways I'm uncertain about. I could be businesslike but friendly, but then I'd have a hundred barriers in place and the lunch won't be enjoyable.

Guess I'll treat him like any old dad from school.

Maybell,

I am so sorry with all you're facing lately.

I love that you have a solution to help with the house. I've always wondered about organizers. I hope that goes well and eliminates a big weight off your shoulders.

Kids. I think you're handling yourself very well given everything you all are facing. I LOVE the talking stick (naked barbie - LOL!!!) and I think I'm going to implement that into my day with D. She's a chronic interrupter and is NOT LEARNING. God knows we have enough naked barbies lying around.

I just wanted to pass on my encouragement and support.

As far as dinner on Friday... what has NOT been working? I don't think you need to be outwardly vulnerable if you're not ready. Why not "act as if" as a way of being vulnerable. Start acting like you and H are on better terms than you are. You know? This will require you to be open because you could face some rejection at first but you could also confuse the crap out of him and leave him thinking. Not a bad thing, huh?

Treat him like any old dad from school but have fun with him. I don't mean flirt or go overboard. I just mean, act like he's an interesting sort of fun old dad from school.

Can you do that?

I would say quit trying to 'plan' how you will act and just be your best self. Be at your best. Look your best, smell your best, and act your best. Act like you did when you two first fell in love. Be a reminder to what he used to want. Remember, he is a guy. He is more primal than you women. You are worried about being vulnerable. He is motivated by your beauty, by scent, by his desire to be with the hottest and best 'catch' in the room. Be that catch!

I'm on the fence about this lunch. I have been thinking about what kind of person cheats and the fact that my H doesn't seem to care at all about how much he hurt me. I'm thinking about times when I think he probably lied to me before the affair, and wondering if he's just a self-absorbed narcissist and there's no point in trying. I'm thinking about the time I caught him looking at porn when our daughter was 4 months old, and the way he made such a point of asking me to stay out of the basement (where the computer was at that time) during that period of our marriage. About the time I left for a ten hour drive to work on my graduate thesis and he wasn't even planning to wake up to say goodbye to me that morning. I'm wondering why I would want to attract him back when he has made so little investment in our relationship over the years. I don't want to divorce, but I don't want to spend the rest of my life with a jerk, either.

Originally Posted By: Maybell

I'm on the fence about this lunch. I have been thinking about what kind of person cheats and the fact that my H doesn't seem to care at all about how much he hurt me. I'm thinking about times when I think he probably lied to me before the affair, and wondering if he's just a self-absorbed narcissist and there's no point in trying. I'm thinking about the time I caught him looking at porn when our daughter was 4 months old, and the way he made such a point of asking me to stay out of the basement (where the computer was at that time) during that period of our marriage. About the time I left for a ten hour drive to work on my graduate thesis and he wasn't even planning to wake up to say goodbye to me that morning. I'm wondering why I would want to attract him back when he has made so little investment in our relationship over the years. I don't want to divorce, but I don't want to spend the rest of my life with a jerk, either.

Maybell, our H's seem so similar. I can look back at times I totally blew off warning signs, receipts for jewelry and lingerie I didn't get, the porn history on the computer, the emails to my best friend. He went on the offensive each time, I backed off and moved on. Each incident didn't seem like that big of a deal in the scheme of things but when I think back on the whole picture now I must be the biggest fool in history. And I'm pretty sure I don't actually want him back, this separation will be the test of that.

(((Hugs))) to you today.

Maybell, Go to your luch. Right now you are experiencing the same doubts we all feel from time to time. Sometimes more often than not! It is easy to dwell on the negatives. But remember, our S have their own list of negatives about us, and we are doing EVERYTHING we can to try and get them to forget about our negatives and focus on our positives. So we at least owe them the same courtesy. I think it is easy for the LBS to focus on our WAS negatives because it makes it easier for us to accept them not being around anymore. But I promise if you spent the same amount of time focusing on all the positives, you would be a tearful mess right now missing the most wonderful H the world could have known. So I get the focusing on negative aspect.

Go to your lunch. Put on your PMA. Be the best Maybell you can be. Be the Maybell he fell in love with. Worry about HIS negatives IF you get to a point where HE is willing to address/work on them. It happens!!

Do you want to have lunch with him? And I mean really?

If you don't, don't go. Let him know you're just not there, yet, if ever.

(your concern about his "are you made at me" text is telling. Are you mad at him?)

DB can do many wonderful things for us. But we need to know where we want to go.

And right now, it seems you're unsure. Work that out. Take your time. It's a very important question.

I believe that sometimes we have to do difficult things but we also have to listen to our gut, our intuition. If your gut is screaming at you "don't do this," then don't. At least not right now. Your H left but he's seemingly stuck, still doing things that make you uncomfortable and make him not the partner for you. At least not right now.

You've grown, changed, wrestled with some very difficult questions, with more to come. You're just beginning to see what might be possible.

About vulnerability: "Staying vulnerable is a risk we have to take if we want to experience connection.�

Being vulnerable includes being open to your needs.

Be kind to yourself.

No, I don't really, really want to have lunch with him. I want to step back from all this and I haven't had enough time away from him while actually concentrating in myself. The thought of *trying* to attract him back right now makes me queasy.

I guess that's my answer. I'll go when I actually want to spend time with him.

We've had a couple of email exchanges in which he offered to take the kids more and I took that opportunity to ask him for a specific weeknight with the kids that they could count on when he's not traveling. He said we could discuss that.

I guess I'll go to discuss the kid stuff. I'll just be myself. I seem to be engaging enough for everyone else I know. If I'm not enough for him, then that's an answer too.

So wait, are you going or not going? It seems you talked yourself right back into it.

Lol. Going, but not making a big deal about it. I need to get the kid thing straightened out and that's better done in person than electronically.

Well, we're all waiting to see how this all turns out!

I think when we're feeling particularly annoyed with them for whatever reason (past acts, present weirdness, or just for the unfairness of where we find ourselves) it's really hard to keep up that PMA and be friendly and pleasant, just "all business".

There are so many undercurrents going on on both sides. He's got expectations, too, and although you're not responsible for them, they still cloud his communication and reactions to you.
Even though it's about the "kids", there is a subtext of the R, future, trying to DB to the best of your ability.

It always feels like there is so much on the line.
And we can't really rely on them to understand just how much is at stake and how their actions affect us.

Kind of sad that we can no longer "just" have a conversation, because there is all this stuff churning beneath the surface. Like juggling ten balls at the same time.
Takes practice, skill, nerves of steel, and the ability to keep trying even if you get discouraged.

Treading that fine line between friendly and paving the way, vs. standing up for what you need and establishing some boundaries...well, Maybell, good for you for being brave enough to meet that challenge!

Just another practice session for your DBing skill set.

---GGG

So as I learned from Mach1, use your anger as a shield not a sword.

I have a good attorney, her busy-ness notwithstanding.

As hard as I tried I couldn't figure out how to make it through the meeting without crying, and she said I clearly wasn't ready to take the steps we had been discussing, so we worked out a couple of alternative steps that would give me the security I'm looking for without going further than I was comfortable doing.

She observed that I seemed super sensitive to my H's moods and even asked if I had ever been hit. I haven't. She suggested I need more space away from him to figure out what I want so I can proceed in a way that is good for me.

I cancelled the lunch. The sense of relief I felt at doing that proves it was the right move for me. I know I'm on a "save your marriage" forum. I know that's what I ought to want. I'm sorry if I'm a disappointment to all of you who had greater patience and confidence in the rightness of the relationship to stick it out. But I do need to take time to know for sure that I'm fighting for what I want or not.

Maybell,

Don't apologize to us!! We want what you want, whatever that is. You knowing that you need time and space and that is a good think to know about yourself.

Take this time. Do what you need to do. Figure out what you want. We're behind you all the way.

All of our situations are different. Someone standing while you may choose to fold does not mean that they have greater patience or confidence. It's just different. Know that in your heart.

We're here for whatever you choose for YOU.

((( )))

You need to find you.

No apology needed for that at all.

You apologize for a lot of things. We have no dog in this fight other than wanting you and your kids to be OK. Let go of the misplaced sense of responsibility to us.

It's hard to know what we want because there is no magical crystal ball to consult about the future. Will we be happier with our MLC/WAS or without them in the long run? Certainly they seem to be making us pretty miserable right now, so it's hard to see a happy future with them. It can happen, but it's a gamble. One that many are prepared to make -- whether because they stand by their vows, or because they truly still love their partner and want to keep trying, or for the kids. But it is a risk, and it may not work out in the long run.

There was a great article about MLC in which a woman said she cured her husband by ignoring his MLC as if he were a toddler throwing a temper tantrum. It worked. He came back. People circulated the story as evidence that it could be overcome.

Then, a few years later, she had to write to clarify that actually they ended up getting divorced a few years down the road.

So even if we do make it through this phase, it doesn't mean that it will last.

The idea that a reconciled relationship will be smooth sailing from that point on is probably not very realistic. There will always be sore spots, trust issues. Maybe some people can get over that, but I'm not sure in my case.

I too have to abandon hope in order to move forward. Maybe I'll be surprised, but I think it's up to each of us to find our own happy endings, and provide them to ourselves, independent of others.

I honestly have no idea what I want wrt this spouse. I am honestly taking the time right now to understand myself and my boundaries.

I don't expect a reconciled marriage to be happily ever after. I'm not even thinking like that. Really what I'm doing is spending time seeing what others seem to see so clearly, how thoroughly I've lost myself and who I really am. For the attorney to ask if he hit me... That kind of shocked me. I see a lot of patterns in my life and in my H's life that are troubling and require examination.

H at the moment doesn't fit into my picture, but I'm clearly not done so I'm just setting him aside till I'm ready to tackle him.

In any case he hasn't told me about any move to start counseling and if he came begging for a reconciliation tomorrow I wouldn't believe him without it. Probably would only half believe him with it.

Infidelity is the stinky, moldy, tarry pits.

But let it be known -- I am MAYBELL, and I will THRIVE. I'm just taking some overdue me time.

Ok, Maybell.

Here I go. This comes with lots of love, even if my stuffy nose and exhaustion prevent me from selecting my words as carefully as you!

I was a bit confused by your back and forth over the lunch... because recently you had mentioned you were stepping back, taking time for yourself. And then, suddenly there was a lot of deliberating over sharing a meal.

You have such clarity and compassion for others-- and it seems harder for you to speak to yourself with that compassionate voice. I wonder why that is.

It is totally reasonable for you to say (to yourself, and to him) that you don't want to have lunch with him at this point. It's totally reasonable for you to say that you aren't sure you want to reconcile, even if that opportunity presented itself.

I think that the term "DB" is really best used in the larger sense-- there are strategies we can use to make an ok/starting to go downhill turn around and be/stay strong. But I think when you're in our position-- he's GONE-- it's kind of a different story. I'm here for a few reasons:
1) Maybe my H will change his mind. I'm certainly not counting on it, and I'm not at all sure that's what I want (he'd need to make some changes too, hello). I'd like it to be my choice, so that is another reason why I'm here.
2) But probably the bigger reason I'm here is to become the best ME-- on my own and definitely in my next R. And this forum is filled with people experiencing similar feelings and situations-- I don't have a group like this IRL.

So, Maybell, don't you dare apologize! This is a pretty safe place to express thoughts like, "I'm not sure I want to be married to my H who cheated on me."!! There is no judgment here.

We're all rooting for you, whatever you choose.
xo

I'm not sure I want to be married to my h who cheated on me.

That sums up most things, why should you be sure? Why should you do all the lifting?
Why does it need to be now?
Why can't he do some work show some actions first?

All my thoughts and I suspect yours too. Hugs maybell.

Spot on, Ggrass, thank you.

Maybell, it's how I think on my h, our stitches are so simlar it just seemed to make sense.

He had his return email last Wednesday which he hasn't replied to. He talks of wanting things done, but yet isn't doing them. They need to sort them selves.

Hi Maybell,

You are more than due for some "me time" and there is no pressure that you need to reconcile or focus on your H. Take this time for yourself to focus on you and see what you want and how you feel. You may even go back and forth.

And as others have said or hinted at, DB is not about staying married. It is about handling this crappy stuff in the best way possible. And through that process becoming the best person you can be. In the end you may realize that the best thing to do is to split up. That's fine too!

We all are here to support you!
Big hug, LisaB

Originally Posted By: Maybell

I honestly have no idea what I want wrt this spouse. I am honestly taking the time right now to understand myself and my boundaries.

I don't expect a reconciled marriage to be happily ever after. I'm not even thinking like that. Really what I'm doing is spending time seeing what others seem to see so clearly, how thoroughly I've lost myself and who I really am. For the attorney to ask if he hit me... That kind of shocked me. I see a lot of patterns in my life and in my H's life that are troubling and require examination.

H at the moment doesn't fit into my picture, but I'm clearly not done so I'm just setting him aside till I'm ready to tackle him.

In any case he hasn't told me about any move to start counseling and if he came begging for a reconciliation tomorrow I wouldn't believe him without it. Probably would only half believe him with it.

Infidelity is the stinky, moldy, tarry pits.

But let it be known -- I am MAYBELL, and I will THRIVE. I'm just taking some overdue me time.

I AM MAYBELL! Hear me ROAR!

I used to bite my tongue and hold my breath
Scared to rock the boat and make a mess
So I sat quietly, agreed politely
I guess that I forgot I had a choice
I let you push me past the breaking point
I stood for nothing, so I fell for everything
...
I got the eye of the tiger, a fighter, dancing through the fire
'Cause I am a champion and you�re gonna hear me roar
Louder, louder than a lion

With homage to the Helen Reddy version of the same sentiment.

Are you OK?

Yep, all good. H's turn to keep the kids this weekend, but they have a big sports thing so I've seen him all morning. First time he's seen me with my ring off. He didn't say anything but I saw him check and he looked startled. I've been friendly but remote, not sitting next to him. He sent several texts yesterday, one with a flyer to a concert "I can't go because I have the kids that weekend but you might like to" and a Facebook post that referenced something I've been doing with the kids. He's tried to catch my eye a couple of times and when he does I return his smile. I feel a great relief of the pressure to attract him. If it happens naturally we'll see what happens but for the moment it's nice to not be focused on him (even though that whole list makes it sound like I have been).

I have a job interview on Tuesday and a few other things that are very encouraging have been happening in that area too. I'm not excited about the Tuesday one and was worried about what I'd do if offered the job, which made me aware of how weak my boundaries are. So that will be a practice in a couple of ways.

All good things!!

I want to clarify this: You apologize for a lot of things. We have no dog in this fight other than wanting you and your kids to be OK. Let go of the misplaced sense of responsibility to us.

That was rather inartfully stated.

You aren't responsible for our my feelings or anyone else's, here or IRL. If I would feel disappointed in a choice you made, that's about me and my need to control, or feelings or superiority or god complex, whatever. those feelings are mine, all mine, rising from my stuff.

There's only one person you need to answer to, you.

If you take a situation and really tease that out, it can bring so much relief and clarity.

Labug, I hear you. That was part of my realizing my weak boundaries -- that I apologize for making the choices that are best *for me* almost every time I'm bold enough to do it. That also was a big part of my dissatisfaction in my marriage, that I resented my H & my kids for ignoring boundaries that I didn't have the nerve to hold firmly. Also that I am excessively outward-motivated, rather than from within. That's my priority area for growth/180, whatever you want to call it. A lot of things will fall into place for me as I start making progress there.

Wherever that fear came from, I'm a big girl now and it's time to take responsibility for myself.

Just that^^^

You are worthy just as you are.

Maybell,

Thinking about you a lot. Your compassionate and clear wisdom have been a true godsend to me these last few months. And it hurts my heart to think that it's hard for you to have that same compassion for yourself.

I was spending some time last night wandering around the MLC boards. (Don't ask why-- just went down a black hole!). But I realized that the tone on this board is much more my style-- let go of anger, work on yourself, be the best YOU you can be without analyzing or worrying about every little thing our crazy WAS do or say. We can't control them, or anyone else (especially adolescent daughters-- and I can give you plenty of pointers on that if you are interested!). But we CAN control ourselves.

I'm totally rambling right now, and I'm not responding in particular to something you posted, but just wanted to reiterate what the wise labug said-- focus on YOU YOU YOU. Your H is a wackadoodle right now (maybe forever??). And there is no sense trying to make sense of that.

It's so hard to not be hyper-tuned in to what they say and do (boy am I one to talk!), but the more we can tune it out, the easier this will all be and the stronger we will feel. I don't know if you or I can Bust our Divorce. But we CAN kick a$$ at life, no matter what gets thrown our way. We are here for you, Maybell. You are a rockstar. Go ahead and ROAR! (i have a story about that, too, by the way).
((( ))))

Here's my Roar story, by the way:

On the morning of my H's BD, we went as a family to a Halloween event. D3 was dressed as a lion. H took a GREAT pic of me and D3 that day (on my request, of course). I look great, she is adorable and roaring.

Then, we came home, put her down for a nap, and he told me he was leaving.

I look at that picture often. I am smart, beautiful, a great mom, and self-aware and STRONG enough to change for the better. (because g-d knows it takes a heck of a lot of strength to dig deep and change). Shortly after, I posted that pic on FB (before I even found DB), with the caption, "You're gonna hear me roar". To those who didn't know what was going on, it was a cute pic of my D. But to those who knew what was happening, I imagine they realized the double meaning. I made a promise to myself that I would survive this and come out STRONGER than ever.

And you know what? I think I can finally say I have ROARED, and it's been heard. He is a fool to leave me. And that will be his cross to bear should that be the end result.

Because us mama lions? We are going to WIN this thing called life in the end. You got this, Maybell-Lion.

You betcha, Claire! And I love your story.

I'm getting there. Starting to feel more like myself, and very interested to see who I'm turning out to be. The idea of having strong boundaries that protect me really appeals. Taking off my ring and not hanging on my H's every glance, being my sunny self and having a life, and realizing I could be that person FREELY even though my H was in the room (during the long kid event today) -- that felt like a roar. I felt strong boundaries, "I will not feel inadequate because of your selfish choices," and it was such a relief.

Tomorrow, church and a small religious study that I'm interested in, an impromptu brunch with friends to celebrate the gorgeous fall weather, and I'll cap off the evening with a spy movie (finishing the book tonight). And I feel like myself.

I hope I can keep this up. Over drinks & dessert with friends tonight I felt a twinge of missing my actual husband, the charming guy I used to be married to. I hope that fella turns up and meets me someday. We would make a cute couple.

Great post, MB!

But beware of this "I hope I can keep this up." Don't go there. Of course you won't be sunny delight 24/7 but stay in the moment. Some minutes, hours, days will be great, others won't. No matter what, you know that emotions change all the time.

Sounds like a full day. What movie?

Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. I finished the book this morning. Highly enjoyable but super tough to follow.

I'm still ok but lonely for my family. Missing my kids and the good husband, and feeling like it's hard to do the right thing. But it's still the right thing.

Onwards!

Doing the right thing is often hard, no?

Yes... The hardest part is remembering that I'm stepping back for my own well-being (and therefore should continue), rather than stepping back to make a point (and thus should stop).

I *am* doing this for me! to keep from losing myself in him.

Interestingly, he just posted a news article on Facebook showing that alcohol is the most damaging of the major drugs. I wonder to what that was apropos.

Originally Posted By: Maybell

Yes... The hardest part is remembering that I'm stepping back for my own well-being (and therefore should continue), rather than stepping back to make a point (and thus should stop).

It's funny how we sometimes have to remind our selves why we made certain decisions. LOL

What you said above is something I actually have to remind myself about H. He is stepping back to take better care of himself, something I don't think he's ever known how to do. EVER. I think there are some days he is actually doing it to make a point and those are the days he's short and aloof.

Anyway, I find it interesting that we often need to remember WHY we are doing what we're doing. Good for you, Maybell.

And like Claire, I have had a few ROAR moments. I think it's hard NOT to when all this stuff is going on and you have kids. Our natural instinct is to protect and preserve at ANY expense.

Keep ROARING. You're doing beautifully.

Here's another interesting discovery... I'm not thrilled about the job I'm interviewing for Tuesday and when I asked my friend if I should cancel the interview, she gave me language I'm comfortable with to not let myself get pushed into something I don't want. It was that simple! Why couldn't I have done that for myself?

Originally Posted By: Maybell

Here's another interesting discovery... I'm not thrilled about the job I'm interviewing for Tuesday and when I asked my friend if I should cancel the interview, she gave me language I'm comfortable with to not let myself get pushed into something I don't want. It was that simple! Why couldn't I have done that for myself?

Maybell,

Do you believe in yourself? Do you know you're smart? Beautiful? Dynamic? A good mother? A good friend? When do you feel you are at your most confident?

When it comes to stuff like being assertive (such as developing language to help you not get pushed into something you don't want) it sometimes takes a specific mindset. A mindset that doesn't come naturally for me but I am relatively good at faking it until I make it. I DO, however, need to bounce this stuff off my BFF because she sees things I don't. That's what friends are for.

Being able to ask someone something you could have done for yourself doesn't mean anything other than you might be an external processor (this has nothing to do with being introverted or extroverted). You might need to bounce things off others just to get your thinking started and then you're good. I'm the SAME!

i'd love to hear you speak more positively about yourself. To accept yourself for exactly who you are and what you stand for today! I know that's not an easy thing to do but it's another part of faking it until you become it.

Also, consider a power pose before the interview. It works!!!

A million reasons why. Who cares? It's often so much easier to have clarity and perspective on others' situations. How many times has someone given me advice, and I've said to myself, 'Well, duh."

Originally Posted By: claire7

A million reasons why. Who cares? It's often so much easier to have clarity and perspective on others' situations. How many times has someone given me advice, and I've said to myself, 'Well, duh."

Right? Or "huh, that's an easy solution" when all I can come up with is complicated and messy. Outside perspective is EVERYTHING sometimes. Perhaps that is why detachment is so helpful. Viewing things from a distance may help us help ourselves as if we were viewing it from outside.

Hmmmm...

And that's just one of many reasons why this forum has been so important to me. This is the ONLY place (besides a DB coach) where I know that the feedback I'll get follows the same basic philosophy and principles that I am trying to follow.

Yay for DB.

I don't know why I am how I am. Sometimes I feel like there's a really important part of me that's missing, that I'm core-less and made up of reactions. The person you all praise so much is somebody I built on purpose so the reactions I get from others would match my preferred idea of myself. Is that me? I guess so, because I built that self on purpose with specific values in mind. But I don't KNOW it.

But I can't get all those pieces. I can get the compassion, I can get the clearly, closely watching others, and I do sincerely care that what I say is helpful. I can't get the parts where I feel like I'm as smart as I "ought" to be -- because "smart" is one of the stories other people tell about me that I feel can't be true or simple things would be simpler. Also I know of myself that I am smart in some ways and that I have a really hard time with other kinds of smart... So of course I devalue what I have. Which I guess is kind of human.

It is HARD to get rid of the idea of "ought." It's not serving me, so it's got to go. I just need to figure out what to replace it with.

I wish I could delete that. ^^^^^^^ it's overly dramatic and silly.

Do I believe in myself? I need to think less about "ought" and more about "am." There's nothing wrong with me being who I am. Humans were built to live in community for this very reason. Talk about overthinking....

Have you read "Mindset"? Please do. It will knock that "I'm smart" vs. "I'm not smart/enough" wonkiness right outta your brain. At least, it did for me. And that's been one of the most powerful lessons I've learned in the last (almost) year.

Google the Janelle Monae clip from Sesame Street: "The Power of Yet". Growth mindset for the wee ones. Awesome.

I've started using that phrase (yet) with my D3. If she says, "I can't, Mama," I reply, "Maybe you can't YET." But you can get there if you try.

Oh, and another thing about "smart": ALL of our brains are stronger in some ways than in others. Even geniuses are stronger in some ways than others. (And btw, most people we would consider "geniuses" are not very 'people-smart'.

What does "smart" mean to you, anyway? What are the areas in which your brain has strengths? What strengths can you use to accommodate or strengthen the areas of weakness?

As a teacher, I am completely fascinated by brain science, if you couldn't tell!

Remember those Stuart Smalley "daily affirmations" from SNL? As hokey as it sounds, I think it might help you (us) develop your sense of self and self-worth. Can you name three things you feel proud of doing each night before you go to bed? Like, specific to that day.

(And btw, Maybell, in case you didn't realize, much of what I write to you are things that I am also telling myself!!!)

Claire, I laughed so hard when you mentioned Stuart Smalley because I say "daily affirmations" into the mirror as often as I can remember and I always complete them by saying "and doggonit, people like me!"

It makes me chuckle when I say it but affirmations really are evidence that thoughts are things. If you believe it, you will create it. It has definitely worked for me.

I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and dog gone it, people like me.

Yes, I looked pretty nice today. I threw together a nice brunch and was a thoughtful hostess to the families that joined me today. I explained some obscure historical facts about the various Christian denominations to my friend -- geek ing out on history makes me happy.

I will follow your good advice and make a practice of doing affirmations daily. Thanks!!

Wait... We're not together... Yet?

How'd i do?

ROAR!!!

I love the daily affirmation idea! Why are we ladies not all in the same state where we could actually get together? It would be so much fun to GAL with others who are going through the same thing...

I agree, Ahoy. It'd be a hoot!

Did I just say "hoot"?

Originally Posted By: Maybell

I don't know why I am how I am. Sometimes I feel like there's a really important part of me that's missing, that I'm core-less and made up of reactions. The person you all praise so much is somebody I built on purpose so the reactions I get from others would match my preferred idea of myself. Is that me? I guess so, because I built that self on purpose with specific values in mind. But I don't KNOW it.

But I can't get all those pieces. I can get the compassion, I can get the clearly, closely watching others, and I do sincerely care that what I say is helpful. I can't get the parts where I feel like I'm as smart as I "ought" to be -- because "smart" is one of the stories other people tell about me that I feel can't be true or simple things would be simpler. Also I know of myself that I am smart in some ways and that I have a really hard time with other kinds of smart... So of course I devalue what I have. Which I guess is kind of human.

It is HARD to get rid of the idea of "ought." It's not serving me, so it's got to go. I just need to figure out what to replace it with.

Great stuff here, you're getting closer to your core, you're finding Maybell. This is reactions I get from others would match my preferred idea of myself is important, I think.

We all tend to mold ourselves some of it's good, some of it's not so good. I've learned to be very aware of my facial expressions. It was a way I learned as a child to try and get what I needed or wanted without asking verbally. It was early manipulation. But if I hadn't really asked and didn't get it, it seemed less painful. I could lie to myself that it wasn't really important and no one knew because I hadn't really asked for whatever it was.

That progressed to showing displeasure in the same way, rolling the eyes, the "you are so stupid you're not worth my time" look, boredom, ignoring. When someone calls you on it you can always say,"Oh you misunderstood, that's not what I meant." Yeah, right.

So I never learned to ask for what I needed but I learned to devalue myself. I learned that my needs weren't important, in fact I learned that I shouldn't have needs.(I don't think it's normal to devalue ourselves) I created P/A ways of trying to get what I wanted or needed because I didn't value myself, so why would anyone else.

Fear, all fear, of rejection, not being good enough, smart enough, fast enough, not loveable. W put up lots of walls to protect that tender core. Our vulnerable self.

As I pay closer attention to those small things, I see other ways in which I'm projecting a false self to the world.

This may not related directly to what you wrote but it clicked in my head.

Take what you can use and leave the rest, as we say in AlAnon.