I'm new to the boards, looking for encouragement. After BD, I had a couple days of the typical crying, pleading, reasoning, trying to understand before coming to my senses and realizing that I needed to put some healthy distance between me and H and started DB. Which got a lot easier because he rented a place just two weeks after BD (and announced the news to D14 that same day).
We had what I thought was a wonderful marriage, and he rarely raised any issues, so I was blindsided. He had always been loving and devoted (so I thought). But he had a health crisis last year that I think affected his thinking and put him in MLC.
At BD he said he was confused, needed "space," not sure if he wanted this marriage in his future. I suspect EA at the least, and probably PA, but he denies, even though I told him that I would understand if that were the case. I have reasons (his travel and evasive GPS location deletions) to suspect otherwise. The reasons he gave for leaving, when I was still asking for reasons, were nonsensical (I don't host enough parties, for instance) -- things he had never mentioned as issues in the past.
I asked for MC and he didn't want to go because he wanted to decide if he wanted to continue in the R before deciding to work on it (!). But he went to a couple of sessions with me anyway, to support me accepting his leaving, but told MC that he wasn't there to work on R. So that was useless, and I discontinued the sessions, telling him that if he did decide he wanted to work on R we could restart the sessions. When I confronted him in MC and told him that he should just tell me if he didn't love me anymore and if he wanted out, he said he just didn't know. He couldn't say for sure, which is why he needs "space" to figure it out. He is also seeing an IC, but who knows what advice he got, as he moved out quickly after having had a few sessions.
But before he moved out, he initiated intimacy with me a couple of times, which left me confused from his mixed messages. He also had a crying fit and declared that he loved me so much (but apparently not enough to stay, I guess).
I guess I will probably never understand why he is doing what he is doing, so I'm focusing instead on GAL and helping D14, who is having a hard time with the changes. I've been happily "dating myself" (hiking, movies, music, dinner out), and have appeared cheerful and helpful to H when we do interact. He even invited me to join him and D14 for dinner once, which I had to cut short to go hear some live music, which I think intrigued him, as he mentioned it the next day and also said that he missed my cooking. I wish I knew what was going on in his head, but I know better than to ask.
Also, I'm really turned off by him right now, and it's difficult to imagine WANTING to be back with him, after all that he's putting me and D14 through, but I guess I'm just not the kind to throw something away quickly, especially with a kid involved. I struggle with being patient, with accepting the "not knowing" what's behind this all, and with whether or not I even want this relationship to continue. Would welcome any advice or encouragement!
M: 43 H: 39
M: 15 years
D14
BD 6/19/14
S 8/1/14
Welcome to the board
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what he says and half of what he does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Your H is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
So today I ran into H at daughter's school event. He is all smiley and chatty as if nothing is wrong, so I present the same back to him. Am friendly when we trade off our daughter, helpful, but I am adhering to a "don't ask, don't tell policy" when it comes to personal matters. I've been asking him to let me know how he wants to divide up the Xmas holiday time, putting the ball in his court (he's already said I could take daughter to visit family for Xmas, but I'm waiting on specific dates). In the past, I would have set the dates myself, so giving him this decision is a 180 for me. He will have daughter for Thanksgiving, and I already booked myself a trip to visit family so I won't get sucked in to helping with that, or wind up alone on the holiday. We're waiting until Jan. to decide whether to dissolve the marriage, but it seems like a long time to wait. It feels so phoney to be around him. He is presenting a very happy and normal self to the world right now, and who knows? Maybe now he truly is "happy" and feels "normal." But I think he's avoiding emotions. He never asks our daughter how she's doing (so she says), because he doesn't want to know (so she says). She doesn't want to tell him anyway, because she's afraid she will cry and then he will hug her, and she doesn't want him near her right now. She also says she's afraid to date boys in the future because she might not trust them -- or herself. She's afraid she will be like her father (fickle). This makes me tremendously sad. Any advice for what I can tell her to help her with these feelings, while staying out of the situation between her and her dad?
Went for a Meetup hike last night and met some awesome people. People who actually were courteous of others and knew how to engage people in authentic conversations (not just about themselves). It made me realize how much of that was missing in my past relationship. Is it weird to feel like I don't love my H after such a short amount of time (just a couple of months)? I am standing until he calls it quits, but truth be told I don't want him anymore. Is this the right thing to do -- keep waiting, on the off chance I won't have an advantage in divorce court, or go ahead and put the nail in the coffin, even though I think if we worked on the relationship it could be good again (for our daughter's sake). How could I ever trust him again? Do I want to live the rest of my life wondering when the other shoe will drop (again)? This stinks.
H has D14 this week, and when he came by the house to pick up something, he tried to pawn her off on me the next night so he could go out. He thought I might be able to take her to the football game (since he has better things to do). I already had plans, so I declined, and then he started asking if one of the neighbors might take her. (I reminded him that they don't attend, so no.) It makes me sad that he continually chooses his own happiness and social life and work over taking time to connect with our daughter and do things with her that she would like. I told daughter I would take her to the game the following week. This is the second time H has tried to pawn her off on me because he wants to do something social himself, and he's only been switching weeks with me for a month now. It makes me sad.
Yesterday was hard because my father is having some health issues and may need a biopsy for possible lymphoma. I am sad to be so far away and terrified to lose him. In the past, I would have my H to hold me and reassure me, but I feel like I can't share this with him, that it wouldn't make a difference. He might console me, but only as a "buddy" not as my H. I say this because I have my annual MRI (benign brain tumors that I have to keep track of) in November and he usually comes with me for moral support. When I asked him (early after BD) if he wasn't planning on coming with me this time, he offered to come "if I needed a buddy." Please. How insulting. So I'll be doing that on my own. My family is far away -- I moved to this state because of his job four years ago (sacrificing the benefits of my own job, although I continue it on contract). Now I'm sad that I'm stuck here when all of the people I love are so far away. It is a lonely feeling. That's why these boards are helpful. Is anyone out there?
Is it weird to feel like I don't love my H after such a short amount of time (just a couple of months)? I am standing until he calls it quits, but truth be told I don't want him anymore. Is this the right thing to do -- keep waiting, on the off chance I won't have an advantage in divorce court, or go ahead and put the nail in the coffin, even though I think if we worked on the relationship it could be good again (for our daughter's sake). How could I ever trust him again? Do I want to live the rest of my life wondering when the other shoe will drop (again)? This stinks.
Ahoy, I posted a very similar question the other day. And for now I have decided to wait it out, to not initiate D myself. I do think that if H ever wanted to put some effort into the R, it could be truly amazing, we have a pretty good R now (believe it or not) but with some opening up on both our parts it could be really great. I don't really think that he's ever going to put any effort towards that, but I'm ok with waiting for now. To me that means getting my own life, but not making any decisions that would exclude H, such as a new man.
And it's also to my financial advantage to wait it out. We have an informal separation agreement that says finances will stay exactly the same during the four-month separation, which hasn't even started yet. The longer this drags out and he continues to pay, the longer my kids stay in their house and that's important to me.
Thank you, rppfl! I do feel that it's the right thing to wait. Things are just changing too fast already -- how can I trust his emotions and my own? Especially when I see myself going through the phases of grief, anger, denial, etc. Time will tell. But since he no longer lives at home, I feel emotionally distant from him, which brings me peace, but at the same time it makes it easy for me to see my (happy) life without him. And I wonder if he feels the same. I worry that this time will allow him to put even more emotional distance between us, from which there will be no return. I guess that's out of my control, so I can't fixate on that. There is that quote I return to: If you love someone, let him go, if he comes back to you, he's yours, if not, he never was. But what about "if you hate someone, just throttle him"? Ha! Just kidding, but still. It's strange to observe the dramatic shifts in emotions during this crazy time.
It's strange to observe the dramatic shifts in emotions during this crazy time.
I think that's another reason why I wait. What I feel today may not be what I feel tomorrow and I don't want to do something I'll regret. He hasn't even moved out yet, I don't want to "drive the nail in the coffin" when I don't even really know how I feel about that. I'm OK with it today, I may not be so pleased on moving truck day.
Ahoy,
I'm sorry you find yourself here. This board is filled with wonderful people dealing with difficult situations. The good news is that it gets sooooooo much better!
That's terribly stressful regarding your health challenges and your Dad's. I hope his biopsy yields good results and that your MRI goes smoothly. I'm sorry you have so much on your plate. When it rains it pours so grab a cute umbrella and some snazzy rain boots!
Can I make a suggestion? I'm no expert although please don't look at this as waiting. You will get incredibly frustrated if that's the way you refer to it. Life is going to continue for you and your D whether your h is there or on another continent. You only have one to live so now is the time to start thinking about what you want to do. I know you want to R, however just keep the focus on you and D.
Hang in there!
Thank you both, rppfl and Georgiabelle, I really value the feedback and encouragement. To say it has been a difficult past few years is an understatement (brain tumors were diagnosed two years ago). I feel as if I've been doing okay overall -- and you're right to tell me not to think of it as waiting. I have been working hard on GAL and focusing on daughter, and was really doing okay until I got the news about my dad. Now I'm just trying to breathe and be in the moment. I'm going out with some girlfriends tonight -- chances are I will run into my H and D14, since we have the same friends and are going to the same events (even though he told our MC we had "different friends" early after DB -- when I asked for examples, he got defensive and said "it's not like I have secret friends" -- very suspicious). Anyhoo. I'm gearing myself up to look great and have fun (for my own sake, not for his benefit), in spite of feeling like a puddle. The rain boots will improve my outlook, I'm sure!
Speaking of health issues, my H had seizures about a year ago that I think might have tipped him into MLC, and is on meds that also affect mood. When I've asked (in the past, when I was still asking questions) if he should talk to his doc about the mood shift, he dismissed it. Part of me wants to believe he is legitimately off his rocker due to brain changes, so that's another reason I wait. Love is patient, right?
rppfl, the moving day is hard. I hope you never have to experience it. We divided up stuff before I left town to visit family with daughter, and he moved out while we were away. It was hard to walk into a half empty home, but you can have fun redecorating it, making it more of your own. (My H's office is now a fun music room that I use with my daughter.) It's actually much easier to DB and GAL with him away, so even though it seems like a terrible step away from what you want, in other ways it is easier not to have the day-to-day tension of dealing with someone in emotional chaos.
Me again. Had a difficult day a couple days ago. H dropped by with D14 to pick up some stuff from garage. I brought out some mail for him, and he initiated a hug, said "I miss our friendship." I gave him a sad smile because I couldn't think of anything useful to say. (What is the right response to that?)
Then he said, "I know, I'm the one who's doing this." (accepting responsibility for the distance between us). Then he asked how I was doing. I told him I was fine but dealing with family stuff -- I tell him about my dad's health scare, and he said this is what he felt he was missing out on (personal stuff happening in my life).
I then asked him how he was doing (is that a mistake?) He said he was holding it together for the start of the semester (he teaches), but that obviously things aren't okay or he would be back home. He says he has to "figure out his head." I just nod with understanding. (What am I supposed to say -- I really need help validating things like this!)
I have been asking for a couple of weeks for him to let me know how he would like to handle the holidays. He gets Thanksgiving, and I get Xmas, he gets New Years, but he hadn't set exact dates for Xmas, and I wanted to give him the opportunity to do so (since I've always been the one to organize this stuff in the past). I told him that with my father's situation, that's why it's important to me to go ahead and set those dates so I can get good tickets -- that I'm not trying to nag him, I just have other family stuff to attend to. He said he understood, but then that night he STILL didn't send me the dates. Sigh.
So after he leaves I spiral into sobbing depression. Talk to my parents a bit, then force myself to go out to listen to a polka band -- because who can be depressed when listening to polka. Unfortunately, the venue was hosting not one but TWO 50th wedding anniversary parties, so that was kind of a dud. I ate pretzels by myself and then drove the hour back home. The music was good though, I guess.
So the next morning I email him the dates that D14 is out of school and ask which of those days he would like. He sends back a schedule, which we are able to tweak a bit to give me more time to travel to see family. Overall, working well together on the co-parenting thing so far.
Anyway, I think what sent me into tailspin was the whole hug/I miss our friendship thing. Obviously, he is not missing ME as his wife, but he wants to be "friends." This is mind reading on my part, but I am having a hard time shutting of the analytical part of my brain. I have been revisiting that conversation nonstop for the past two days now, and it's driving me nuts, causing me to lose sleep.
Last week, I felt like I could care less about him, and now that he's doing the hugging/opening up a bit thing, it throws me back into doubt (I know, detach, GAL).
Also, he still hasn't admitted to an A, but everything he has said and done fits the script. I don't want to snoop (can't anyway now that he's moved out), but I do wish he would be honest with me -- it would help me move on emotionally, and explain better why he is doing what he's doing. I guess it doesn't matter since the outcome is the same?
Would love some advice to some of the questions above. Especially what to say when he asks how I've been? I've tried hard to be upbeat and friendly towards him, but I admit I was teary when telling him about my dad's situation. In his email about the holiday dates, he did say that he was thinking of me and my dad a lot and to let him know if there was anything he could do.
How about come home and be my husband again? How about don't abandon your wife who supported you as a stay-at-home dad for two years then put you through grad school for three, then sacrificed her career twice over so that you could advance yours? Sorry, venting here...
My daughter complained that he had told her that if she broke anything at his house that she'd have to pay for it. Then she said to me, "I wanted to tell him: "Well, you broke my heart, are you going to pay for that?!" Clever, but sad.
So... just got back from a funeral. The adult daughter of my neighbors (who are in their late 80s) was murdered. I had told my H that I was attending the funeral to support them (I check on these neighbors a lot and count them as dear friends). Of course, H did not offer to go (he's consumed by his own selfish needs and probably feels guilty showing his face since they know he left me). So there I am, thinking about family, life, death, and meaning at this funeral. I'm trying to console my friends, who are also trying to console me, and it's just a mess.
What is the point to all this sadness?
I know joy will come, that this will pass, but it's so hard to sit here with my father ill, with a head full of brain tumors, stuck in a state far from family, and with a WAH. I know I should instead be grateful for the things that are good (the tumors are benign, I have a home, finances, family, friends, my daughter), but sometimes the universe feels like a pretty overwhelming place.
Also, it seems that more pain comes with getting older, and I'm tired of losing the people I love -- to death or abandonment.
I guess I just try to practice gratitude and being in the moment, but right now it's all so overwhelming.
Okay that sounded a little pathetic.
It's a beautiful day, I have my daughter with me this week.
Tonight we're going to Zumba and maybe bike ride.
So overall, life is good.
Does anyone have good advice for keeping one's mind off of WAH? I'm trying to stay busy, but my mind keeps straying, trying to solve the unsolvable issue . . .
Does anyone have good advice for keeping one's mind off of WAH? I'm trying to stay busy, but my mind keeps straying, trying to solve the unsolvable issue . . .
The only answer I can give you is Detach= GAL + time. The more you find yourself enjoying yourself/life, you'll find that in time your mind won't wander to those thoughts as often.
Thank you, Tarheel. I really appreciate the response. I need to take more time doing things I enjoy (not fixating -- or even spending too much time on the forum probably). Your story gives me hope, even though it's a long row to hoe. . . I admire your patience.
Ahoy, it takes practice, but "thought stopping" - where you literally imagine a stop sign whenever he enters your mind - is probably the most immediate task.
I also find that organizing my to do lists, planning my calendar & grocery list, reading a great mystery novel, etc., occupy enough of my attention that time will go by without me spinning and then I'm so grateful for the respite that I keep going.
Best to you!
That is terrific advice! I really like the mental stop sign, and the redirecting of attention. The hardest part is when I wake up in the middle of the night and start rehashing -- there are no distractions then to stop the flow of thoughts. I'm sure it will get easier with practice. It's been 3 mo. since BD and only just over a month since he's moved out. I'm grateful he's out of the house because then it would REALLY be hard to stop the thoughts. At least now he is out of sight, so I can work on the "out of mind" thing without going out of my mind...
Thank you so much, Maybell, and best to you as well.
Okay, I have an urgent question.
I have been pressuring my H to set dates for the holidays so I could book a flight to visit family for Xmas, precipitated by my dad's health issue and the fact that I'll need to book the flight early to get seats and a decent price.
He stalled, but finally set the dates this past weekend (I explained the urgency to him).
Now I'm wondering if he thinks that my decision to spend the holidays without him means that I'm done.
Previously, we had considered the possibility of spending the holidays together with daughter, depending on how things were going.
I'm supposed to drop by his place tonight to pick up some papers for daughter's school, and I wondered if I should say something along the lines of:
Thanks again for setting those dates with me so I could book the flights. I know we had discussed possibly doing the holidays together, but with my dad's condition, I am feeling anxious to spend time with family. I don't want you to feel excluded, but I know that visiting my family isn't something you can commit to at this time, and I needed to do this for myself. Of course, you're welcome to join us if you feel like it when the time comes.
Or should I just keep my trap shut at the risk of him thinking that I am planning to move forward with D and have no hope of restoring M?
HELP!
No. He doesn't think you are done. I'm so sorry, Ahoy. This is such a tough spot to be in. I know it is difficult to comprehend, however your old R is done. Over. And your h was gone long before BD. I'm not saying that to be harsh- just honest. You've been clear that you love your h and don't want it to end. He knows that. He does. No big proclamations of why you decided to book trip necessary. If you feel you must, you can say "thanks for working with me on the dates. I really want to spend some time with my Dad."
Go on the trip and enjoy your family. I'll use a little reverse psychology on you for a moment. If your h booked a trip without you, at this particular juncture, would you truly believe he was done? Take the focus off him and worry about you.
It gets so much better! Hang in there:-)
For a newbie, I think your explanation is pretty spot on. You left the door open for him to join if he'd like, but not pressuring him one way or the other.
Don't put much thought into what H will think or how he will respond right now. You need to be more focused on YOU and what YOU want to do.
Thank you both SO much, Georgiabelle and Tarheel, for responding quickly before I did something dumb and counterproductive. I really needed to hear that. It's just so hard to believe that the R is over, even though I know in my heart that it is. I want to keep the road smooth for him to return, but he will have to make that choice on his own. And I must, as you both noted, move on and do things for myself, regardless of his mindset.
I think I was just having doubts because of his "I miss our friendship" proclamation from over the weekend. I really should know better than to read anything into that.
Argh!
It's just so hard to believe that the R is over, even though I know in my heart that it is.
Ahoy, this was one of the first things Georgiabelle told me. It was hard to hear but I knew she was right. And the further I've traveled down this road, the more I've come to see that not only is it over, it needed to be over for both our sakes. That doesn't mean that H and I can't build a new R someday. And that's why I'm standing, not for the old R, but for the possibility of a really great new one.
It is a hard truth -- but a truth nonetheless. It's good to hear you say that you needed it to be over for both your sakes. I didn't see that before (I had thought everything was fine, that he was just stressed from work), but now I see that I was in a relationship that was being neglected for whatever reasons. And so yes, for both our sakes, it's best that it's over. I just wish I had been given an opportunity to work on these issues, and that he hadn't made the decision on his own and without working with me on them first.
But there's no point in dwelling on the past, since nothing can be done about it. I hope everything goes okay when you talk to your kids, rppfl. That is a difficult conversation. I will be thinking of you.
It is a hard truth -- but a truth nonetheless. It's good to hear you say that you needed it to be over for both your sakes. I didn't see that before (I had thought everything was fine, that he was just stressed from work), but now I see that I was in a relationship that was being neglected for whatever reasons. And so yes, for both our sakes, it's best that it's over. I just wish I had been given an opportunity to work on these issues, and that he hadn't made the decision on his own and without working with me on them first.
But there's no point in dwelling on the past, since nothing can be done about it. I hope everything goes okay when you talk to your kids, rppfl. That is a difficult conversation. I will be thinking of you.
Thank you, Ahoy, about the kids.
And I could have written every word of this post, how I thought everything was fine, how I used work stress to excuse behavior, how he had made up his mind before I had any idea what was going on. But the five months we've continued to live together after BD has given me a relatively stable platform to analyze our past R, and see him as he is now and not who I thought he was or who I wanted him to be, and especially not who I thought he was going to be when we were old. And it's opened my eyes. I wish the same thing for you.
Thank you -- yes, there was a lot of projecting going on. I was projecting positive qualities onto him that just weren't true. And perhaps he was doing the same to me. The scales have definitely fallen from my eyes, although it's hard to let go of the illusions of the past at times.
I thought I'd share a funny thing with you to brighten your day. H always went overboard on Xmas presents for me -- he is not a planner, so he would wait until the last minute, and then end up getting me something expensive and useless out of panic/guilt.
So this past Xmas he got me a kayak.
Without a paddle.
Perhaps that was a metaphor for what I could have expected in the coming year: being up sh*t creek without a paddle?
Anyway, I ended up getting a paddle and have been enjoying kayaking -- part of my GAL strategy.
It's just sometimes you have to get your own paddle if you want to navigate through the sh*t.
Ahoy, that kayak thing is a great analogy.
You're going to go through a LOT of emotional phases, but keep the focus on yourself & your kids and you will be great either way. It's not easy but it's worth it.
I want to say more but at the moment that's all I've got, so just know I'm thinking of you.
Thank you, Maybell! I'm trying to push through the emotional cycling and recognize it for what it is. It's helpful to know that I'm not alone in this process. I am so grateful to you and the others on this board. There's only so much my family and friends can take, and I know I can sound like a broken record at times...
Best line ever: So after he leaves I spiral into sobbing depression. Talk to my parents a bit, then force myself to go out to listen to a polka band -- because who can be depressed when listening to polka.
About the 50th Celebrations, not all of those are happy marriages. Just sayin.
Leave your H to his journey. You can't change it anyway.
About dates for the holidays, maybe try something like "I need to make my reservations by <date>" If he doesn't have an answer, make your reservations. Don't keep bringing it up.
Now I'm off to listen to some polka! Roll out the barrel...
I should have read on but I got caught up in the polka. You did fine iwth making the reservations.
So this past Xmas he got me a kayak.
Without a paddle.
It's just sometimes you have to get your own paddle if you want to navigate through the sh*t.
Love this! Made my day.
Glad I can provide some moments of well-deserved levity! I find that it's good to seek the humor in these otherwise crazy circumstances. I do think polka is a natural anti-depressant! And 50 years doing anything is probably too long, so no rose-colored glasses there. Feeling better today, thanks to all the guidance!
Also, my H is color blind, so how does he know if the grass is REALLY greener?
Anyway, I love that expression: The grass is greener where you water it.
Wish everyone saw it that way!
How about... the grass is greener where you don't pee on it??
Love that!
So I have another funny story. Last night I started having sharp stomach pains, went to bed, but woke up 7 hours later in the middle of the night still having the pains. I called the nurse line and she said it's either gas or appendicitis. I panicked a bit because I didn't want to take myself to the ER and leave my daughter, because if I did need emergency surgery then my H would have to pick her up. (We've been living separately for just over a month.)
So I call him and tell him what's going on. I really don't have anyone else here that I can call in the middle of the night to help with things like that. He said he would have reached out to me in similar circumstances. He comes over, takes me to ER, and waits with me (although I try to encourage him to go get some sleep). After three hours of waiting, my stomach feels better and we give up waiting to be seen.
It's a bit embarrassing that I dragged my H out of bed across town to sit with me for three hours with GAS at the ER, but there you have it. He was nice about it, and we actually had great friendly conversation during that time.
He mentioned that he was enjoying his new place -- being "a big boy" and doing his own laundry, but that of course he loves and cares about me. (I am not mistaking this for romantic love. He later said that he will always care about me because I am his "baby momma. And I'm sorry but I couldn't help myself, I burst out laughing and said "that is so lame!" before correcting course and saying, "Of course, I'll always care about you as the father of our daughter."
AND, I'm sorry but I also did mention the holiday plans and that I wasn't trying to exclude him, just needed to make plans for myself (I couldn't help it! I know!!!!). But I felt like he was reaching out for a friend, and he had been feeling excluded by our other friends.
There was also some nice friendly hugs, but nothing romantic.
Anyway, the good news is that I felt that we were establishing a connection as friends. And maybe that's all it will ever be from here on out. I don't want to have a fraught relationship with him, as we will need to work as partners with our daughter for years to come. Although I miss his companionship, and obviously still need him for support in some ways (hello ER), I could see a world in which we are just friends, and that was okay.
But I felt like he was reaching out for a friend, and he had been feeling excluded by our other friends.
Don't try to solve his problems.
I hope you can have a friendly R with him because it's best for everyone involved but steer (that'll be hard as you don't have a paddle) away from a friendly codependent R.
You are right, of course!!! It's hard to turn off the compassion toward him, especially when he was doing me a huge favor.
He had complained that none of his friends had come by his new place (although I know of two who have), and was jealous that our friends had asked me to dinner, invited me to birthdays, etc. One of his complaints in MC (the two times we went) was that we had different friends (which is bizarre because it's not true, although it is true that I have more and deeper friendships, and he complained often that he didn't).
Regardless, you are right! I was trying to validate (and contradict) his statement about not having friends, and trying to be a friend to him since he was being friendly to me. It's hard to be detached and mysterious when you are having gas pains in an ER waiting room! ARGH!
Validate: "That must be difficult."
It gets easier.
So I was listing to The Moth podcast today, which was about relationships, and happened to include this quote from Winston Churchill:
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Seems fitting.
H has been extra friendly since the whole "gas emergency at the ER" incident.
The next day (last night) we had a tornado warning, so we texted back and forth to let him know we were safe in basement at my place.
Then today, he emailed me a photo of daughter and friend at the park from last week (he also copied this friend, who I think he is afraid has chosen sides -- she calls him a 'poo-poo head' though he doesn't know this).
I think he's happy because it seems that I'm okay with just being friends and coparents. And maybe I am, I guess. I mean, why would I want a partner like him who behaves in this way, and how could I ever trust him again? So maybe it's for the best. Still, he will have to initiate the D because I still don't see the reasoning behind it. Although I suspect it's some kind of affair. No way to know without snooping, and that does not interest me in the least.
In other news, I have many GAL plans for the coming week. A jazz bar on Saturday with a girlfriend, a Meetup group movie and dinner on Sunday, hiking group Monday, live music on Tuesday, yoga and gym on Wednesday, and a potluck barn dance and hayride on Saturday. So there's that!
How do I add my stats at the bottom of my posts?
How do I add my stats at the bottom of my posts?
Hiya
fairly new to the forum but I can answer that one
go to "my stuff" above then edit your profile and put it in the signature box.
All the best
Edz
I have another question. (I think I already know the answer, but am wanting to confirm.)
Because my H has followed the script (ILYBNILWY, moving out, taking off ring, says he will be "dating"), I suspect that his bomb drop was precipitated by PA or EA.
When (pre-DB) I asked him if that were the case, and that I would understand if it were (it would make more sense than the lame excuses he was offering), he got angry and accused me of "fishing." So it seems that he must feel guilty (otherwise, why the anger). So he denies that something is going on, but my gut tells me otherwise.
So it seems that when PAs or EAs are exposed, sometimes that makes things worse -- gets the WAH to file for D; and sometimes is makes him come to his senses sooner, since he has to face the music.
I know for my own sanity it is probably best not to pry and not to know, right?
I haven't been asking questions or making demands of him, and from everything I've read it's best not to.
So I just need confirmation -- it's best to leave this alone, right? and not press for answers to whether or not there is OW?
Also, since he will be dating, should I? I feel that it's wrong, that daughter would be unhappy about it. But I also don't want to regret wasting time not having fun, not keeping the door open to other romantic possibilities if this M doesn't work out.
I've been going to Meetup groups, and am getting interest from guys. My instinct is to make friends, but keep any new relationships platonic until after D (assuming that happens). That would be the right thing to do, right?
I know for my own sanity it is probably best not to pry and not to know, right?
Continuing to pester you H for answers is not going to work. He'll continue to deny and will only find your behavior as needy and clingy, which will turn him away from you. As far as snooping to determine if H is having an A, I think you'll find different opinions on here. Some say not to snoop, while others (I believe Starsky) say that it's better to know what you're up against. I favor that approach because I think it changes your game plan should you know there is an A ongoing. That's up to you though.
Also, since he will be dating, should I? I feel that it's wrong, that daughter would be unhappy about it. But I also don't want to regret wasting time not having fun, not keeping the door open to other romantic possibilities if this M doesn't work out.
Also a personal decision, but if your goal is to re attract and eventually R with H, it's probably not a good idea to get involved with another man. You're basically saying you don't want H to be involved with someone, yet it's ok for you to do it.
Ahoy, would it make any difference, to you, if you knew? In my case, I know there is an OW. But outside of the initial question of does she exist and are you sleeping with her, I have not asked a single question about her, I have no idea who she is, where they met, how old she is, where she lives, if she has kids, when he sees her. She is beneath my curiosity level, and I don't want my brain polluted with details that I will have to try and forget later.
My personal opinion on dating is that I won't do it as long as I am M, that's not right for me, and I don't want my kids to think that married people should be dating others under any circumstances. I also don't think it's fair to the person you are dating. What would you do if you really liked him and then H decided to work on your M? How is that any better than what our WAS are doing to us? I know others may not agree, totally fine, but that's where I stand.
Thank you for that, Tarheel and rppfl. You've confirmed what I've been thinking all along. You're right -- it would do me no good to try to get him to confess to OW, and the less I know the better for my own sanity. Part of me would like to know, of course, because it would make it easier for me to detach, but I could easily end up fixating on the OW, which would not be healthy. It just bugs me that H is lying to all about what's really behind his sudden move because he doesn't want to look like a bad guy. I'm sure his speedy exit is because he want to sleep with someone else in "good conscience" (not while home with me). Oh well.
And you're right about dating -- it would not be fair to that person, does not fit with my morals, and I'm definitely not in the right place for that, nor do I think it's right to date while M. However, my H has made it clear that he will be dating, so that is hard. I guess I will go out with people as part of my GAL plan, but make it clear that it will be only platonic, as I'm still M.
Tarheel, just wondering -- in what way would knowing about an A change my game plan? I wonder if there's something more I should be doing... He lives in a different town now, and I'm doing LRT (although I did have to ask for his help with the whole ER situation earlier this week, and we talked for 3 hours, which was definitely not part of my plan).
I'm not instigating contact, but responding in a friendly, lighthearted way to his calls, texts, emails. I'm not initiating opportunities to meet, I try to be first to end calls and meetings. I'm GAL and he knows it. I'm doing 180s (not checking up on him, as I constantly did in the past, not asking about his health, not asking what he's doing, where he's going, not asking about R or M or D or the future), focusing only on D14 issues. Looking good when he sees me.
Is there anything more I can or should be doing if I suspect an A that will make a difference?
Gathering intel, aka snooping, is a pretty grey area. If you do, you have to be strong and detached so it does not alter the way you are acting. I know personally I tried and I just could not handle it. It triggered anxiety, fear and anger. As Starsky has mentioned on other threads, having that intel can be a powerful tool.
I'm going to give you the Starsky speech and ask you a question- Are you ok with living in an open marriage?
If the answer is yes, then it does no good to snoop or ask questions about a potential OW. Continue to GAL and wait it out, hoping the 'possible' A dies a natural death.
If the answer is no and you're able to snoop (may be difficult since he lives in a different town) and find concrete evidence of an ongoing A, you give the 'I'm not willing to live in an open M' speech to H. Buuuut, you have to be willing to back up those words with the appropriate action. Trust me, it does no good to make that 'threat' if you're unwilling to back it up.
^^^This falls in line with what advice Starsky gave me, but only you can make the decision.
Ahoy,
You ask a lot of the questions many of us did when we first got here. I will try to answer them the best I can, but by no means am I the absolute final source for answers
On confirming the OW side. Do you NEED to know? By that I mean is your H having an OW a deal breaker? If so, then yea, you probably might as well know now. If not, then leave it alone. Right now your emotional state is extremely fragile, and the details of OW are going to really play havoc. Truth be told, IF there is OW in your Hs life, there is really nothing you can do about it right now anyways. Exposing him if he is having an A usually does not go the route of setting him on the path to redemption. It usually sends them in the opposite direction due to shame, guilt, and more often than not, the LBS reaction to the affair.
On dating, again, that is a personal choice. The advantages are it helps as a bandaid over the hurt and loneliness you are feeling right now. The disadvantages are it prevents you from dealing with the issues right in front of you, as well as working on yourself. It also is not fair to anyone you would date because you are not emotionally available. You are sending the wrong message to a spouse who may want to work things out, but is scared they may have done too much damage. Trust me on that one...I think I am at that point right now myself.
I am not up to date on your situation as I type this. However, since this is relatively new to you, I would hold off on the dating. There is no problem with you making a new group of friends. Even friends of the opposite sex. But believe me, your H will notice, and your H will assume you are dating, even if you are not. Your H will want to justify his actions, and even if your H is having an affair, they will accuse you of being the one who is unfaithful to the marriage. I know, it makes no sense. In some cases, it can snap the spouse back to the person they walked away from. In others, it can create a case of one-upsmanship where they now believe it is ok for them to do openly what they have already done in secret. And that will most likely cause you more hurt than happiness you will get from a rebound date.
Just my thoughts.... Good luck!
Thank you all so much! I have a lot to think about now.
I guess the bottom line is that I should leave it alone for now. I think (mind reading) the reason he's not admitting to the suspected A is that he wants to leave his options open in case it doesn't work out and he wants to return home. So me finding out and confronting would jeopardize that, and probably push him into her arms further.
pilot -- that is an interesting dichotomy. For some, the WAS gets jealous if the LBS is dating, but that does seem like game playing to me -- something that has NEVER interested me. But I do want friends, so I guess if I want to hang out (in a platonic manner) with someone of the opposite sex as part of GAL, I should just do it discretely so H doesn't read anything into it? It feels sneaky, though.
The problem is that all my friends are coupled up or have families and can't go out regularly. And the people who approach me at Meetups as potential friends are guys (who, let's be honest, are probably looking for more). I wonder if it would be appropriate to go out with them as friends if I make it clear that I am in no way interested in a romantic relationship while still married?
Basically, my H wouldn't say that he wanted a D right away, but all signs pointed in that direction (he was looking into buying a house on his own a week after BD). I told him I wasn't interested in getting a D this year, and that I felt we should take our time. I told him, however, that if he didn't want to be in this R, I wasn't going to try to force him and would grant him a dissolution as early as January if that's what he decides he wants.
Now he thinks of me and treats me like a friend, tells our daughter he thinks of me like a family member (sister or mother), even though we ML twice after BD! (Not doing that again -- boundaries, and don't want an STD, thank you.)
On one of the other threads I read that it was helpful to think of yourself as already divorced in order to really detached, and I think that is where the questions about dating come from . . .
And let's be honest, it would feel great to have those emotional and physical needs met, and exciting to have them with someone new, even.
Anyway, when H said he would be dating, I told him in response that I planned to be "social," but was not looking to replace him, find a soul mate, or ML because that would be adultery.
He agreed vehemently that he would not be ML to others also, "because that would be illegal!" He said it in a crazy amped up way that made me think he was guilty... Sigh.
I really appreciate all the feedback.
I was bad about following advice before, so the extra push to stick to the plan is VERY helpful.
Ahoy,
It's pure speculation although it's possible your h isn't having an A. However, he may be idealizing someone already in his mind and he is looking to pursue that.
That's the thing. At BD, they look at it as their official proclamation they are single even though they left emotionally quite a while before.
Take care of yourself. Have some fun this weekend:-)
Tarheel, just wondering -- in what way would knowing about an A change my game plan? I wonder if there's something more I should be doing... He lives in a different town now, and I'm doing LRT (although I did have to ask for his help with the whole ER situation earlier this week, and we talked for 3 hours, which was definitely not part of my plan).
I'm not instigating contact, but responding in a friendly, lighthearted way to his calls, texts, emails. I'm not initiating opportunities to meet, I try to be first to end calls and meetings. I'm GAL and he knows it. I'm doing 180s (not checking up on him, as I constantly did in the past, not asking about his health, not asking what he's doing, where he's going, not asking about R or M or D or the future), focusing only on D14 issues. Looking good when he sees me.
Is there anything more I can or should be doing if I suspect an A that will make a difference?
I think this is a great plan and if his being involved in an affiar isn't a deal-breaker, it doesn't change anything. (especially as you said later you're no longer having sex with him)
On dating, again, that is a personal choice. The advantages are it helps as a bandaid over the hurt and loneliness you are feeling right now. The disadvantages are it prevents you from dealing with the issues right in front of you, as well as working on yourself. It also is not fair to anyone you would date because you are not emotionally available. You are sending the wrong message to a spouse who may want to work things out, but is scared they may have done too much damage. Trust me on that one...I think I am at that point right now myself.
Great advice, Pilot.
Thank you, Georgiabelle! I do have fun plans for this weekend and next, thank goodness. I find that I have to make plans for the week when my daughter's away so I don't get mopey.
And I do think it may be a situation where he is idealizing someone else, but I suppose it amounts to the same thing -- at least the result is the same.
Can I ask -- what was the breaking point for you (I see that you filed)?
Was it a single event, or just the cumulative effect of everything? Should I be posting this on your thread instead (sorry, being a newbie, not sure of protocol...)
Wow, GB, I wasn't aware of the filing. That's what happens when you live in a different neighborhood.
I'll have to visit.
Thank you, labug. Surprisingly to myself, I don't think A is a deal-breaker. I do think people make mistakes (having made some myself in past relationships). So I guess I'll just stick to my boundaries and see how the next four months pan out. Then wait and see if H initiates dissolution talk at that time.
I am so grateful for all the guidance!
pilot, when you say you are at that point right now, do you mean you think your own dating damaged the possibility of reconciling, or do you mean you're at the point of considering dating? If the former, I'd be interested to know how it caused damage. (Don't worry -- I'm following your advice and not dating, just trying to make sense of it all!)
Hi Ahoy,
I have as slightly different take on this (there is an OW in my case).
I would actually just assume that there is an OW (regardless of whether it is physical, emotional or just idealized as Georgiabelle mentions) and deal with those feelings now rather than live with the "is there or isn't there limbo". In my case, after I had some time to process the BD, it was actually a relief to know, because so many more things that had happened previously finally started to make sense.
In regards to dating - I feel pretty strongly that it's a bad idea. I will admit that about 3 days after BD - in a moment of craziness, I joined a dating website for about 12 hours (it was a little alamrming - all the guys seemed to be toothy triathletes).
I don't worry about how H would react, that's on him. But I do know that no matter how well I try to deal with this situation, I am the very definition of vulnerable right now and that is a recipe for disaster.
Just my two cents.
The disadvantages are it prevents you from dealing with the issues right in front of you, as well as working on yourself.
It does no such thing. What, a person can't deal with issues or work on yourself while dating other? That's just not true.
Of course people can.
raliced, you are so right. And I have assumed all along that there is someone else in the picture, one way or another. It just doesn't make sense otherwise. No illusions there!
I am glad for your advice about dating -- I'm in way too vulnerable of a place to make good decisions right now. And dating website are terrifying!
I know I need to learn to be happy and independent on my own. I think I can enter a healthy relationship (whether with H or someone else down the road) if I am happy with myself and not in a place where I feel needy and am looking for someone to "complete" me.
Then again, I wonder... if H comes back to work on R, will I always resent that he had his fun, and I didn't when I had a free pass? Would I be more willing to recommit knowing that we both allowed ourselves to see what life might be like with others, and decided against it? Or would it open my eyes to the fact that I actually might be better off with someone else -- someone who wouldn't abandon me like this?
These are the questions that I'm dealing with, even though I'm committed to not dating at this time.
Then again, I wonder... if H comes back to work on R, will I always resent that he had his fun, and I didn't when I had a free pass? Would I be more willing to recommit knowing that we both allowed ourselves to see what life might be like with others, and decided against it? Or would it open my eyes to the fact that I actually might be better off with someone else -- someone who wouldn't abandon me like this?
These are the questions that I'm dealing with, even though I'm committed to not dating at this time.
I've had those thoughts too - and for me, I guess if we reconcile, I would probably take more solace in the fact that I dealt with the situation with strength and dignity rather than worry about missed opportunities.
BTW - I wouldn't completely discount dating- if we're a year out from now and still haven't resolved anything - I would probably be more open to it - but I think a significant amount of time would need to have passed since BD and my GAL would need to be fully developed.
Our timelines are pretty similar, raliced (my H moved out in August, but we were both traveling prior to that so were apart from mid-July onward).
You're right of course about maintaining dignity. And I wouldn't want to do anything that I'd have to keep secret forever, or that I wouldn't be comfortable sharing with my daughter if she asks.
I'm definitely not discounting dating in the long run -- and I'll certainly be open to it post-D. I guess I'll know when the time is right. I wish you the best!
pilot, when you say you are at that point right now, do you mean you think your own dating damaged the possibility of reconciling, or do you mean you're at the point of considering dating? If the former, I'd be interested to know how it caused damage. (Don't worry -- I'm following your advice and not dating, just trying to make sense of it all!)
While I am by no means for certain about where my W is emotionally at this point, it would seem she might be one of those who believes the pathway home is too much trouble, and therefore not worth the effort to even try. She may feel there is too much damage done, too much 'moving on' going on, and the easy path for her might just be to keep moving on.
Recently I was getting frustrated with the limbo...the stagnant nature of where things were going. So I pressed the 'idea' around her that there 'may' in fact be someone else for me right now and I may just be moving on. For me, I think this may have backfired, as looking back at my entire story, I realized adding all the small things together, coupled with the past few weeks, my W may really think I HAVE moved on and there is no reason to even consider R. So now I am trying to undo all of that by painting a smoother road home.
Bottom line is unless you really are ready to move on, do not move on.
Wow -- that is good to know, and good advice.
It's tricky because one of the "rules" is to be a bit mysterious and don't talk about everything you're doing to WAS.
I did that, but I could tell H was suspicious of what I was up to (going out to hear live music -- by myself, though he didn't know that last part).
Then I worried it was pushing him away, giving him further justification for his actions. How are you working to make the road home smoother for her?
Hi Ahoy, weighing in on the dating thing.
For me, the dating debate is a personal decision that you have to make based on the situation.
My H is actively dating/having sex. And there is also a special OW. So I feel if he is going to hump every woman in town then I feel fine in dating myself as far as the moral part of it is concerned. And I also feel that whole potentially missing out unbalanced adventure thing you mentioned.
However, the key for me is that my WAH can wonder if I am dating but at this point he shouldn't be SURE I'm dating. Basically he should be thinking "oh crap, someone else might get my W!" but not actually see the evidence at this point. I say this because of what happened in my story a few weeks ago.
Maybe in a month or so things will change (for the worse) and it will be fine for me to show off publicly that I am dating someone else. But for now, I feel if I want to date or flirt I can do it only where WAH won't find out directly. Because I think if you throw it in their face it makes them jealous but then they also might close the door they had opened a crack. They may think it is too difficult to reconcile or they may shut down to protect themselves.
A little mystery is good though.
I also agree with you and others that I may not be ready emotionally to date now anyway. At this point I am really only flirting, not dating.
That's my two cents on dating.
Oh and also if you suspect an A of some kind whether PA, EA or just crush, I would say be extra careful of the fog. The A puts a heavy confusion on the WAS that clouds their feelings about you. They can't think about anything but the A until they get over it. So hold on since the ride might be a long one waiting for that to be over.
Hugs, Lisa
That is wonderful advice -- keep him wondering, but don't give him any ammunition.
I went back and re-read your thread and realized you were talking about the party-kissing episode, which threw him into a tizzy and made him angry.
It's so hypocritical for him to be doing what he's doing and then get mad when a guy makes a pass at you -- but then again, does anything they say or do make sense right now? No.
I'll be honest, I'm enjoying the attention I'm getting from other men, even though I'm nowhere near being ready to act on it.
But I'm also keeping my creep antenna up since I know I'm vulnerable. One guy from the hiking meetup messaged me a couple of times to go hiking just the two of us. He is married, and I just thought it was creepy and inappropriate. Plus, he could be some weirdo waiting to get me into the woods alone!
But there are others who are just nice guys. It's been so long since I've allowed myself to be friends with guys (was always protective of my marriage in the past).
Ahoy,
I'm sorry if this hijacks your thread, however I wanted to respond to your question. This board helped me tremendously post BD and I was pretty fortunate to find it just a few days after that.
An A was not a deal breaker for me. However, my xh turned into a man that I never imagined he could. It was one thing to be hurtful to me, however his behavior towards the kids was very difficult for me to comprehend. He has become the person he always spoke so horribly about. I occasionally feel embarrassed for him, although now I have a sense of pity. There was no particular event-just the totality of certain events and behaviors that told me I truly needed to let him go. I commend people who stand for years or who R their marriages after much time apart. This is not what I ever imagined for myself and I have a vivid imagination. I do hope he finds a sense of peace for himself.
You will learn what you want as this journey progresses. The only solid advice I have is to conduct yourself in a way that you can look back and say that you did what you could and handled yourself with grace in the process. Regardless of the outcome! My children were watching and I wanted them to see that you can laugh and be the rock in very challenging circumstances. This process taught me (and boy did I struggle) that it's not my job to teach him life lessons-God, life, and the universe will handle anything and everything. That's just my perspective.
Georgiabelle, that is one of the best posts I've read. Thank you for that, and for answering my question.
I need to print this out and post it on my wall to remind me that everything I do right now I should do for my own benefit, and that I should conduct myself with dignity and grace -- at the very least for my daughter. I do want to be proud of how I handle the situation.
I commend you for knowing when the time was right for you to be done. You are practicing self-care, which is the best thing you can do for yourself and your children.
Big hugs.
Ahoy,
Jealousy is a cruel tool. The whole concept of revenge dating just can't help.
I feel if I want to date or flirt I can do it only where WAH won't find out directly.
The assumption should be that it
will be found out, because it always is. Don't do anything you wouldn't be willing to explain to your parents/friends/family.
My W was in another town, flirting with a guy. When I later found out about it, she was absolutely perplexed as to how I could possibly know the guy. He wasn't from the area. Well, he was someone I worked with a decade ago, and the connections were all still in place, and gossip travels faster than physics allows.
I'm with Georgiabelle - you're the example. Dignity and grace. High road all the way.
Thank you for the back-up, zew. I agree. The more I think about it, the more I feel that I need to take the high road and be the better person in this situation (to borrow a few cliches). At least I will feel good about myself, even if I don't feel good about anything else that is happening (the things that are out of my control anyway).
True zew, true. Gossip and information does have a way of getting around. The high road is a good road to take and when in doubt err on the side of caution.
It depends on your situation, too. No one would fault me for flirting when my H is openly sleeping with and dating multiple women and says he is completely done with our relationship and has no interest in me. But still, any of that behavior on my part does complicate the situation and start making me the problem rather than him. Although that is a nice change of pace in a way...
But still it is better to only seem happy and content like you might possibly be dating than to be found out actually doing it.
Good luck Ahoy!
Hugs, LisaB
Ahoy, sorry for the hijack here.
No one would fault me for flirting when my H is openly sleeping with and dating multiple women and says he is completely done with our relationship and has no interest in me.
LisaB,
Ya see, I
would fault you. And I'm trying very hard this year not to learn not to judge people by
my moral standards. My W is doing exactly what your H is doing, but I'm keeping mine in my pants, even though it would be easy enough not to.
You know that is wayward spew he's talking.
I'll rhyme off all the maxims:
Bad behavior is no excuse for bad behavior.
Why let him off the hook by letting him say you were doing the same thing.
I'm married until I'm not.
I want to be able to give the kids a good example of how to behave while married. (My D is NOT blind to any of this.)
I have a core set of values, that if I stick to, allows me to sleep peacefully at night. My W, on the other hand, has abandoned hers, and needs sleeping pills to get through the night, and AD's to get through the days.
But still, any of that behavior on my part does complicate the situation and start making me the problem rather than him.
But still it is better to only seem happy and content like you might possibly be dating than to be found out actually doing it.
And there you have it. Things are plenty complicated enough. A period of celibacy while you figure things out isn't that tough.
Although, I am reminded of a Tom Waits line:
I'm so G-D horny, the crack of dawn better be careful around me.
Feel free to hijack --- it's a good discussion, and one that I need to hear. I feel all the things that Lisa is feeling and have all the same questions, but I do think I should wait to even entertain the idea of romantic dating. Just this evening my daughter was asking me what my plans were for the week ahead and who I was doing them with. I could tell her in good conscience that I was meeting new friends in groups, but not dating, even though that's what her dad intends to do (she has to be prepared for that). She asked me if we were separated (um, yes, he doesn't live with us anymore), if it was permanent (I don't know, it's up to dad), and if we were going to get a divorce (ditto).
Sigh. I'm glad I can at least be honest with her. This confirms that I'm on the right path.
Yes, being able to be honest with your kids is worth more than you know.
You have D14, I have D13 - they are at a critical time. I'm home now with my D -- W left two hours ago with nothing more than "I'll be back." It's all making an impression. I'm not claiming superiority over W - I'm very careful not to do that, I don't want the kids to have any ill will towards W. It's tough to raise kids, and she doesn't need any disadvantage from me.
In the end, though, all truth comes out; it always does. I just want to be on the good side of that.
So when I'm out GAL, it's always on the up and up, with the thought that eventually, I'd like to bring my W along with me to any of the things I'm doing, and if that happens, nobody will be in an awkward position.
pilot, when you say you are at that point right now, do you mean you think your own dating damaged the possibility of reconciling, or do you mean you're at the point of considering dating? If the former, I'd be interested to know how it caused damage. (Don't worry -- I'm following your advice and not dating, just trying to make sense of it all!)
While I am by no means for certain about where my W is emotionally at this point, it would seem she might be one of those who believes the pathway home is too much trouble, and therefore not worth the effort to even try. She may feel there is too much damage done, too much 'moving on' going on, and the easy path for her might just be to keep moving on.
Recently I was getting frustrated with the limbo...the stagnant nature of where things were going. So I pressed the 'idea' around her that there 'may' in fact be someone else for me right now and I may just be moving on. For me, I think this may have backfired, as looking back at my entire story, I realized adding all the small things together, coupled with the past few weeks, my W may really think I HAVE moved on and there is no reason to even consider R. So now I am trying to undo all of that by painting a smoother road home.
Bottom line is unless you really are ready to move on, do not move on.
This is similar to my wife she has even said that if she decides she does want to come home and make a go at a R she won't because it would be unfair .
How crazy is that ?
zew, yes, my D only gets one father, and I don't want her to have father-issues as she gets older. I want them to have a good relationship, for her sake, but I also can't control his choices or how she feels about them -- and at her age, I feel that she deserves and can handle honesty about the situation. (I didn't realize for instance that she wasn't sure if we were separated.)
South -- your wife saying that it would be "unfair" -- that is just an excuse for her not to return. Don't believe anything she says! GAL, 180, PMA. Repeat.
Zew - I also have D14, and she is the tricky one through all of this.
S20 feels (what the he!! is she doing? - I'm out of here)
S17 is more like (Hey dad let's get out of here and go fishing - Don't worry about her).
D14 is quietly observing and doesn't comment on much. She gets defensive if I ask her what she is thinking or why she looks sad. It concerns me so much that she will un-learn all of the good things our family had and what husband and wife are supposed to be.
I also try keeping the peace at home for the kids and tell them to give their mom time and don't pick sides. I don't tell the kids specifics or even that she is right in the way she's behaving. I just tell them to try showing her their best.
I just quietly do my best for them - and I have a feeling they know it. It sounds like you are doing that too.
I can't speak for zew, but for me, I'm trying to do all the same things for D14 that you're doing for yours. However, she can see when I'm sad and angry. I try to keep that from her, but at the same time, I see her pushing her own emotions down and not processing them. She doesn't want to see a counselor.
Usually once a week when she's at my place she breaks down in tears about the situation, and then we're able to have a productive conversation about what she's feeling, but I have to wait for her to open up on her own terms.
She needs to know that it's okay to have those emotions (and that I have many of the same emotions as well), but that it's okay to love her father even if she disagrees with the choices he's making.
Of course, he thinks she's doing great and that everything is hunky dory with her, since she doesn't open up to him about her emotions. I wish he could hear the things she says about him and the situation, but I know that if I shared that with him it would be a betrayal of her trust and just make him angry at me (as the bearer of bad news, and I'm sure he would assume that I'm turning her against him, even though I'm working very hard to do the opposite and demonstrate compassion and patience).
Ahoy - Great Job!. It is a shame that they don't realize the impact that they are having on the kids.
I think where I see the problem is coming from - D14 will not open up to me, but would to her mother. I think that she feels that I would not be able to handle or take care of her emotions and feelings, so she contains them. I wait and don't push too hard, but I think that she will break down - hopefully d14 will trust me with herself.
I don't know what a teenage girl's feelings about what a father's abilities are. I don't think that they know what we are actually capable of.
My boys and I have had good conversations about all of this but they cannot "get" to their sister either. They give up easily though.
I too feel like I am trying to teach them with my compassion and patience but it may come across as weakness to my kids (because they do not know the whole story).
I addressed zew in that last post, because (I believe) that they are all living in the same house yet (I may be wrong). Same in my situation. It is still a lot of hiding as much as possible from the kids. They don't have the daily reminder because of a separation yet. I'm sure it changes the dynamics when that happens.
Don't worry about compassion and patience coming across as weakness. In time, the kids will understand and respect you for it.
I say this because I've been asking a lot of questions of friends of mine whose parents divorced. They all say that in time they came to understand and respect what the LBS did to make the process easy for them.
However, one friend mentioned that she was sad that her mom (an LBS) didn't GAL for herself.
So keep that in mind! They need to see you be a strong person in and of yourself, pursuing your interests and enjoying what life has to bring.
Your D will open up in time. Just be sure to give her opportunities. Sometimes I ask my daughter how she's feeling and she says "I just don't want to talk about it." And I say, "No problem. I totally understand. It's difficult. I'm here if you ever do feel like talking."
As long as she knows that you're there for her, that's enough.
Had a bad moment. After church the minister shook my hand and said with a smile -- I heard H moved into my neighborhood! (She obviously didn't have the whole story -- just the happy BS that my H is feeding everyone). So I said, "Yes, H left me" and teared up and had to go. She said she'd love to meet up for coffee.
I hate him. I really do. Why does it still hurt so much. I should be glad to be getting rid of such a selfish jerk.
Also, my daughter seems to have adjusted to the situation this past week and no longer seems upset. I should be happy for her, but part of me is upset that she seems to be over it so quickly while I'm struggling. I know that is unfair of me, but there you have it.
So I'm glad my husband is so freaking happy with his new life, I'm glad my daughter is adjusting well, I just wish I didn't feel like crap.
But last night was really fun, and I have to remind myself that when I'm GAL I'm actually quite happy without H. And I don't miss living with him AT ALL.
Went out to dinner then to a jazz bar with a girlfriend, then dancing to awesome Texas swing music. Had a good time. I need to remember how I feel in those moments.
Hi Ahoy, glad you had a fun night last night. I totally get what you are saying that when you are GAL you don't miss your H at all. I am the same. I mostly feel happy to be single when I am out GAL. And I also don't miss living with him, except when something breaks or I can't reach something on a high shelf.
Keep on holding on to those good, strong moments!
Hugs, Lisa
Thank you for the encouragement, Lisa! H came to pick up daughter after a rough day (for me emotionally), and then I went to a movie with a Meetup group, then dinner afterwards.
H doesn't even bother to ask me where I'm going (perhaps he doesn't want to know, or feels that if he asks me, then I might ask him in return).
Anyway, that helped lift my spirits significantly. I am happy to be single in those moments! I hear what you mean about not being able to fix things or reach things. I joined a local time bank for just that purpose -- although I have yet to use it! Hugs to you as well, and thanks again. I needed to hear some encouragement after the day I've had...
labug, I think you asked me on a different post why I need to clarify the situation to others. I too asked myself if that was necessary. Here's why I think it is:
1. It's important for friends and family to know that H left so that if he does open up to them for support, they will understand the situation better. He may not open up, but I suspect he is going through a depression, and I want our friends to understand where he is so they can support him through this time. I do want him to be happy, with or without me, because it will make him a better father to our daughter.
2. I told the minister because my daughter is in a program at church about relationships, and her home life situation may come up, so the teachers running the program should be prepared to assist her. (This is on my minister's recommendation.)
3. It's important for me to be truthful. Sure, I could go along with H's statement that we are just amicably separated, or "uncoupling" or what have you, but then when they ask further questions as to "why" the truth will come out anyway, so I might as well be up front about it.
4. It's part of my processing what is going on. I have to look at the situation honestly: For whatever reasons, some of which I likely contributed to, my husband has left me. I need to come to terms with that, and being open and honest about it is personally helpful to me. I don't want to cling to a narrative, but understanding this narrative helps me to better understand the situation.
I am not a victim, nor to I want to be perceived as such, as it's not an attractive or fun position, and sympathy wears off over time. I want my friends and family to know what's going on and know that I am trying to handle it in a way that gives us options moving forward amicably either way, with compassion.
So there you have it. Maybe these are just excuses?
Anyway, in other news, my H texted to see if I could take D14 after school tomorrow. I said sure. Then he texted again to see if I wanted to go on a walk. This is something he expressed interest in doing prior to S (going on a walk every couple of weeks), but had yet to initiate it. He will be coming over today, and now I have DREAD. Perhaps it will just be a friendly walk, where we keep practicing interacting as mere friends; perhaps he will announce that he is done with the marriage for sure and that we should proceed with D; perhaps he will say he wants to work on things. It's hard to keep my mind from racing with the possibilities.
Someone talk me down!
Ahoy,
Can I tell you that when I type that I think of the ever delish chips ahoy blizzard at DQ????:). Relax. Regardless of what your h says or doesn't say, you will be fine. Know that much.
Thank you, Georgiabelle! Trying to breathe... Update to come post-walk!
Okay, so the walk was really lame. He just wanted to vent about D14 and her overuse of technology (just like his own). So I validated, was my happy adjusted self, didn't ask any questions. Then at the end he asked if he could borrow the weed-eater. Apparently his rental doesn't have lawn service after all, as he had thought. I told him to take it since I don't even know how to use it anyway. He can't accuse me of not being generous. I wonder now if his request to go for a walk was just a pretext for borrowing the weed-eater all along. So lame. He could have just asked and I would have given it to him. I could care less! Anyway, it was a good interaction for me because it made me realize that I'm not attracted to him at all right now, and that I might be okay with just being friends and co-parents after all.
I know I swing back and forth on that point. Some days I still mourn the loss of the relationship that I thought I had. I do know that if he decides to come back, I'll be willing to work on the R, but no guarantees on my part.
Anyway, feeling much better and stronger than I did just a couple of days ago -- even better than I did this morning.
Also, he mentioned that a friend's daughter was playing music at a coffee shop on Friday and he would be taking our daughter to hear her. He invited me to join, but I said I already have plans (he didn't ask what they might be). And I DO have plans -- to go hear a band with a meetup group. So glad I lined that up! I wonder if he's even curious, or just relieved that he's off the hook if I've found someone else (even though that is not my intention and certainly not the case).
Anyway, it was a good interaction for me because it made me realize that I'm not attracted to him at all right now, and that I might be okay with just being friends and co-parents after all.
I know I swing back and forth on that point. Some days I still mourn the loss of the relationship that I thought I had. I do know that if he decides to come back, I'll be willing to work on the R, but no guarantees on my part.
I feel that way too. I hope that my husband will eventually decide to work on the marriage for the sake of our children and because in my rational mind, I know that we once had a loving, worthwhile marriage, and it seems worth trying to save. That being said, I am miles away from having loving feelings towards my H right now, and actually have a hard time visualizing what a reconciliation would look like. I have no idea if he can ever be that partner again, if this MLC/affair fog (or whatever he's going through) will change him permanently, or for that matter, if I will be changed permanently by all of this. Who knows? I guess only time will tell, but on my good days, I am certainly going to use that time for myself and for my girls.
Good to hear from you, raliced. It's weird to stand for a relationship that you're not sure you want to save, right? But I do feel that it's the right thing to do. At least for now.
You know, lately I find myself fixated on what like post divorce would be life far in the future: kids graduations and weddings, having mutual grandchildren together, deaths in the family etc. All of that seems like it would be just a lifetime of forever awkwardness. At the moment, I find that more motivating to try and salvage the relationship, but that's just today :-)
Good to hear from you, raliced. It's weird to stand for a relationship that you're not sure you want to save, right? But I do feel that it's the right thing to do. At least for now.
I think most of us on this roller coaster have those thoughts often .. I know I am there right now. I have found some sense of normal amid the storm, and at the time being I am ok alone ... and wouldn't ya know it .. once I get to that spot here the WAW comes making efforts to try and communicate ... time will tell I suppose.
You know, lately I find myself fixated on what like post divorce would be life far in the future: kids graduations and weddings, having mutual grandchildren together, deaths in the family etc. All of that seems like it would be just a lifetime of forever awkwardness. At the moment, I find that more motivating to try and salvage the relationship, but that's just today :-)
This. 100 times this. I wanted my marriage to be the stable one. To be the Grandparents our children deserve.
And that's why I won't give up on my M, even post-D, for quite a while.
Thanks for this - I think of this all the time. (another time here that I realize that I am not alone)
I have thought through a"new version" of my lifetime (separate) and it is not even close to what I want (and not what we have planned for in our past 20 years for our 40 more).
I am not giving up.
CaliGuy, you are so right! Some days I am THRILLED not to be in a relationship with him (because he is selfish, a slob, disorganized, etc.), and then some small thing will happen in our interactions, and it puts me in a tailspin of despair and wishing I had my husband back. But I have to remind myself that I'm just mourning the death of a relationship AS I PERCEIVED IT. The happy marriage I thought I had just didn't really exist -- it was my experience, not his, apparently. So best to let go of that illusion. Today I feel good about being just friends with him.
raliced, I too think about the future and weird interactions. (I think about him walking D14 down the aisle one day and it makes me want to barf.) But we really can't predict how we will feel at that point. If we have moved on and are happy either with ourselves or with someone else, then maybe we won't feel the need to cling to bitterness. I know that I, for one, don't want to hold on to those negative feelings. I want to let him go knowing that life will go on, and that I will have peace either way.
I have to remind myself that I'm just mourning the death of a relationship AS I PERCEIVED IT. The happy marriage I thought I had just didn't really exist -- it was my experience, not his, apparently. So best to let go of that illusion. Today I feel good about being just friends with him.
I like this, and it's true for me as well. Except I'm not ready for the friend part, I will be his W for as long as I am, the mother of his children forever, but I am not to the friend stage yet. Maybe someday.
Hey, Ahoy, I'm just checking in so you know I was here, because you're always so generous about responding to me. I don't have any wisdom to impart, except to note that your situation is still really new, and there's a lot of processing left to go. Hold on to your PMA as tightly as you can, it's your lifeline.
Hugs to you!!!
Thank you Maybell and rppfl! It helps to feel not so alone. Yes, I do have a lot of processing left to do, and I can see my emotional ups and downs. Today I feel strong and ready to be done with the M, but a few days ago I was an emotional sobbing wreck. I know that more ups and downs are coming my way! I'm trying to enjoy the peace I feel today, and I hope that with time, the stretches of peace are longer -- although I know I have some major hills to climb if we do go through the dissolution process.
GAL plans for tonight: Going to listen to 20s jazz! Hooray for PMA!
I hope you both are holding up okay as well! Wish we could all hang out together in the real world.
My issue is how long do you wait .
Surely different circumstances could mean waiting for years is pointless .
Like if they are with another person . How long do you give it until you move on .
I understand myself that I would have her back tomorrow but in a few months I'm not sure how I would feel ,but then I feel bad that I may feel that if in months to come she decided to come home that I may not want that and I'm not sure how I would deal with that scenario.
Aaaaggghhh it makes my head spin thinking about it
"My issue is how long do you wait .
Surely different circumstances could mean waiting for years is pointless ."
No really.
"Like if they are with another person . How long do you give it until you move on."
That's up to you. My W took 3 years before she started even being friendly again.
"I understand myself that I would have her back tomorrow but in a few months I'm not sure how I would feel ,but then I feel bad that I may feel that if in months to come she decided to come home that I may not want that and I'm not sure how I would deal with that scenario."
Well the marriage vow that YOU made was for life. So it's up to you. If you can't handle it, then file the papers now and move on. Simple as that.
"Aaaaggghhh it makes my head spin thinking about it"
Then don't. There's no timeline on this.
Hi South,
I hear you regarding confusion about when to move on. If you asked me a couple days ago, I would have said "never"; but if you asked me today or last week, I might have said "today"! It varies with my emotions and what I'm dealing with at the moment.
What this shows me is that I'm having a lot of conflicting and confusing emotions as I'm dealing with this situation, so I shouldn't trust my feelings right now. And that, my friend, is why I'm taking my time.
In my case, I told my H that he should tell me when he's "done," and that I'm not interested in getting D this year, but if he wants that, I won't stand in his way, and we can discuss it in January. He said I would have to move on with my life at some point. I told him I already had a life, and that it was worth it to me to be patient. I told him that if he was still uncertain in January, I would wait as long as August (when his lease is up). Beyond that, I don't think there would be any benefit to staying. But I do think it should be him to initiate the process because I do stand by my vows and feel that we could work through the issues if he chooses. I'm setting boundaries (deadlines) for him to decide what he wants to do, which is for my own self preservation.
Now if he honors that and doesn't file for D before then remains to be seen...
I watched the movie "Stuck in Love" last night on a friend's recommendation. It's about WAW -- and WAS in general, and about waiting and being in limbo. It was hard to watch at times, but I recommend it. It made me feel like I'm doing the right thing, even though I can't honestly say that I'm "in love" with my H right now.
Did I mention he grew a beard? (Part of the MLC process and to spite me because I always hated his facial hair -- it looks terrible on him and is very sharp, so no fun to kiss, not that that's happening anymore). I've decided that if he returns and keeps the beard, I will grow out my own hair where the sun don't shine and see how he likes it!
Ahoy, you made me laugh this morning!
So I have a question. Next time he wants to go for a walk, just to be friendly and ramble on about his own life, should I agree? I feel like I should, to demonstrate that I'm open and friendly, but at the same time I don't want to be available to him all the time, especially if he's just seeing me as a friend and nothing more.
I'm confused about Sandi's rules on this point. She says to be friendly, but also mysterious. She says don't arrange dates with spouse at this time, but also that it's okay to invite them along to things as long as it's friendly and there are no expectations or pressure.
If I want him to miss me, then I feel that I shouldn't be available to him all the time. But I also don't want to miss out on opportunities to connect and be friendly -- even if all that does is lay the groundwork for an amicable dissolution of the M.
Any advice?
I definitely wouldn't be available all the time. Maybe 50/50. That's available enough to be "friendly" but also maintain that sense of mystery.
Thank you, raliced! I will work on that -- it's hard not to jump at the chance to see him (even though I don't enjoy being around him much these days). It's a weird dichotomy!
Honestly, I think it's great that you are positive enough to want to jump at the chance to see him - even if you don't enjoy it. I'm filled with dread every time I have to see mine.
Oh, trust me -- I am FILLED with dread before these exchanges. I want to jump at the chance because I want to get direction or closure (without pushing, which is why I don't ask questions, just validate). I just put on a happy face. One thing that I've found helps is, immediately before he comes over, I throw myself a little dance party. I put on some awesome music and dance around to get myself in a good, lighthearted mood. Sometimes your body can trick your brain into happiness!
So, H was late for music lesson for D14 and never made it to lesson. Didn't bother to tell me, even though he was supposed to pay (from joint account) for next month's lessons and schedule dates for next month. I called the teacher later to ask if the payment had gone through and was informed they didn't show up or pay or anything. So I rescheduled for my week. No word from H about any of this. Then I see (online) that my daughter got a haircut. She's entitled to a hair cut and I'm happy for her, but I would have liked it if he had told me (I've always cut her hair in the past). If I was taking her to get her hair dyed or cut in a mohawk or ears pierced, I would give him the head's up. Am I being petty? Also, he hasn't been in touch to let me know when he's bringing her home today.
I am doing a lot of legal research and feeling better each day about moving on, if that's what's called for. Also, people have bigger problems. I was in a grocery store today, and saw an elderly lady stocking up on free samples. She was obviously hungry (and her cart was bare of any groceries -- just free sample cups). This is in a very ritzy part of town. No one seemed to notice, and it made me sad. I asked if I could buy her lunch (I got her a cookie too but didn't tell her). Life is bigger than my crazy H. There are good and meaningful things to be done in this world, and my life doesn't have to revolve around a single, self-interested individual.
Not sure I want to stand for this marriage anymore.
I know the kind of person I want to be, and he doesn't really factor into that. I can find meaning elsewhere, in helping others and getting on with my life. I won't hurry the process along, but I'm at peace with being apart.