Part 1 Part 2I had a setback this morning. I reached out to my wife feeling sad and lonely.
Here is our text message exchange:
Me: Hi. Just feeling really down today and wanted to reach out. That's all.
W: Why do you feel that way? Do you need carbs?Me: LOL, no. I'm just really sad this morning.
W: Why?Me: A combination of things...just everything that's going on in my life. I was very upbeat since I came back [from vacation]. This morning it's like I got hit hard with a big stick of depression.
W: Is it because of the job situation? I know that must have been a big disappointment, especially after they really gave you the impression otherwise.Me: Maybe part of it.
W: OK. How are you feeling about our situationMe: I also really miss you. I know you don't want to hear that. I've locked myself in a bathroom stall for the last 30 minutes.
Me: Sorry. I don't mean to dump my emotional problems on you this morning. I'll be OK.
W: That's alright. I rather you talk to me than to some stranger, or feel really depressed and do something that isn't good for yourself or for us.W: What brought this on?Me: I'd rather talk to you too. But sometimes, I feel the more I try to talk to you, the harder it is on me. And you probably don't want me to burden you either. You want to be left alone and you want to be given space right now.
W: I am actually fine if you want to open up.W: We can talk tonight after the kids are in bed if that helps.Is there anything I should take away from that conversation? Should I accept her offer to talk? One of her complaints about me in the past is that I never communicate to her and open up about my feelings. She doesn't like that I bottle things up and don't share things with her. But doing that now seems possibly detremental to my DB efforts.
Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.
Just bumping this.
No further R talks or anything regarding my feelings, etc., since the text exchange.
I did tell her that I needed a couple days to myself this week. One of the days conflicted with her weekend outing with the OM, but she was accommodating.
I was so stupid
I just had an argument with the W.
Apparently, we both booked something for this coming weekend and neither of us are budging. We're essentially double-booked with nobody to watch the kids.
I made a stink about it, noting that she's been spending a day every weekend with the OM since BD, while I play stay-at-home-dad with the kids.
It eventually led to a conversation about what we were doing on that day (she didn't tell me before). She initially refused to tell me because she said she wanted to "spare my feelings".
I told her that there is nothing she can say to me at this point that would be worse than what she's already done to me.
OOPS!
She chuckled at that, and didn't reply.
And what do YOU have planned for that day?
wow. she chuckled.
i have no words.
It sounds like she was chuckling because you are just starting to understand the pain she went through when you had your multiple A's.
Sometimes chuckling is a defense mechanism or a sign of discomfort, too. Or, perhaps she thought you were being a bit melodramatic? Could she be thinking, Gee, if he really missed me so much and was so heartbroken over me, maybe he wouldn't be so stubborn over accomodating my plans for the weekend.
And what do YOU have planned for that day?
I have an outing in the city with some friends I haven't seen in a while.
I spoke to her later in the day (when I was much calmer) where I explained where my anger was coming from. I pointed out again that she's been spending every weekend since BD and I have never made a stink about it. I ask for one day, and it creates a mess.
I also apologized for some of the things I said and told her that I personally recognize that I sometimes use words as a weapon (e.g. passive aggressive remarks). I told her that it is something I'm working on to improve about myself.
She replied saying that she doesn't mind me taking time off and agrees that I need some time off.
She validated by saying that everyone needs to make improvements in their life, and that she thinks that I'm right on about my own assessment.
It turned out that she had a change of heart on her original idea to accommodate the scheduling conflict. That's where our fight stemmed from.
In the end, she stuck to the original plan and now there is no conflict.
Regarding my R with the woman I met online
It turned out that she had gotten attached to me emotionally and was hoping we could connect on a romantic level. After I had told her that I had no interest, she told me she was hurt and that she would cut off contact with me. I wished her good luck in her life.
I told my wife what happened and she replied sarcastically and condescendingly, "So she was just counseling and sharing her experiences with you -- at least that's what you communicated to me. Riiiiiight"
OM moved back home with his W
I spoke with my FIL a little while ago and he sat me down to have a talk. I have told myself that I am going to stop having deep conversations about the situation with him, but he wanted me to hear what he had to say. I mostly listened.
He said that the OM's father called him (the OM) and told him to move back to the house. It turns out that the OMW is spending a lot of time with her own sick father and needs help with the kids. The OM didn't want to move back in with his W, but his father somehow convinced him to.
My FIL thinks this is good news for my chances, but I think he's being overly optimistic.
Last night, I went out with a friend to watch the NFL game at a local sports bar. My W went out to dinner with our two kids.
This morning, she sends me a text saying that she hopes I had a great time out last night. She said that she had a great time with the kids.
Then she goes on to say that I should go out more often or get involved in a sports league. She says she is thinking of joining a tennis league.
...continued...
I let her text sit for hours while formulating a response. I told her,
"Sorry for not getting back to you right away. I had a very busy work day."
"I think you should do it. I want to get back into tennis too."
Later on, she sends me an e-mail regarding this weekend.
She suggested that I stay over my brother's place since I will be home late. At the same time, she said that she will be spending the night (with the OM) tonight and tomorrow. Previously, it was supposed to be just tomorrow.
I am starting to think that her encouragement for me to get out there, away from the family, is perhaps to make her feel better about having done the same (and continuing to do so). I think she may feel sort of "let's her off the hook" in a way.
I don't know. I'm mind-reading here. Bad, bad, bad!
Just bumping, hoping for a fresh response.
Thanks.
I sent an e-mail to my W this morning thanking her for being so accommodating to me (Sunday). I continued and said that she has always been a good wife to me in that regard, and has always been accommodating to my needs (which isn't exactly true, but she believes it is).
I then went on to say that I should have communicated with her better but didn't because I was avoiding potential conflict scenarios, and I assumed (mind-read) what her responses would be. I said I recognized that this was not her fault and was very unfair to her.
Awaiting her response...
Mindsin, is she actually saying " mindsin, I am staying overnight with OM tonight and tomorrow"? Or is she saying something else and you are hearing that she must be staying with OM because the only logical explanation? I'm just asking because for a while, I was hearing the same thing, when actually I was jumping to conclusions and mind reading.
bdub, she actually tells me that she is "spending an overnight" or "staying overnight". Nowadays, she never mentions his name, or where she's staying, etc. I assume that it is with the OM, and I never ask.
I am virtually certain that it is ALWAYS with the OM because when she spends days with her friends, she is very detailed about who she's going to be with, where, and what time, etc.
OK, so you dont know for sure she is with OM. She sounds very similar to my W. Vague sometimes and very specific other times. I found out that when my W was being very specific, THATS when she was with OM. Might be something to think about. Maybe try having a PMA. Instead of assuming she is with OM, assume she is with a dear friend, or the people she hangs out with the most. It is sort of burying your head in the sand. But, is that any worse than assuming and mind reading? I dont think so, PLUS it will make you feel a LOT better, and allow you to focus more on 180, detaching and GAL.
Full disclosure : a week or so ago a mutual friend confronted my W about OM. Prior to that I had laid down a boundary stating I would not tolerate her treating me like that, and if she did I would not allow her to live in the house and I would not cooperate with her in working through our dissolusion. My action and that of our mutual friend caused my W to end her OR.
I'm sorry you are going through this situation. I certainly understand a lot of your frustrations and emotions. If you decide to work on the boundary make sure you do lots of research and practice your technique. Boundary setting can be very difficult and can really sound controlling and be very destructive if not done properly the first time.
I think in my W's case, she is simply trying to spare my feelings. In fact, she said exactly that when I made the mistake of asking where she was going on Sunday.
She said, "I don't want to tell you because if you knew, you'd say that it's something you would have wanted to do [with me]"
I told her, "Try me".
After she told me, I said, "See. I am OK with that because I have come to accept the current situation and I promised you that I'd give you time and space."
This morning, I didn't ask her about her day on Sunday. Instead, she volunteered information to me.
She said, "It turned out that we got there too late so we missed the event. We're probably going to reschedule it to another day."
Wife's response to my e-mail...
"I am glad you had a good day off yesterday. You certainly deserve it. The past few months has been tough on all of us. I am really stressed out so I can relate to how you are feeling. I am thinking of taking a few days off before I start my new job, which is why I asked you if you can hold off planning the boys' getaway until I get work situation settled.
Thanks for trying your best to communicate openly and effectively with me. I know it wasn't always easy between us, for whatever reason, but I am glad that we are now able to start becoming better communicators."
FYI - The "boys' getaway" is a little weekend trip I had planned with my close friends, which I rescheduled to accommodate her.
Do you really feel as though you are becoming better communicators?
Haven't been attached to your thread, and I'm not really the best person to suggest this, but you don't sound terribly detached.
Hang in there. I'm in a similar-ish situation. I also need to work on boundary setting.
MLP - thanks for chiming in.
Well, I do think we are becoming better at communicating more effectively. For example: we have the right conversations regarding our children -- where as before, they were simply negative verbal exchanges. A lot of that has come from me, as I've approached conversations with a more solutions-oriented approach (tip from DR).
I'm not terribly detached, but I am MUCH better than I was initially. I have been extremely dependent on my wife since the beginning and just to get to this point is a milestone for me. There are two things -- acting detached and being detached. I'm still struggling on the former.
I get it. I'm still working on that myself.
Good luck!
Just done with DB coaching session #6
Key takeaways:
- Be patient. I am only 2.5 months into this.
- There are some positive things lining up for me (OM moving out of state in 3 weeks, W starting new job next month, 9-day family trip in November). Just let it play out. Don't get excited. Don't try to push the issue. Stay the course and don't pursue during this time.
- Feel free to express how I feel regarding her spending nights with the OM while I play "stay-at-home dad", but do so w/out presenting consequences. Make it about my feelings ONLY.
- Do not bring up upcoming birthday and 15 year wedding anniversary.
- If she continues to respond positively to a little physical touch (holding hand, hugs), continue. Back off if she shows even a little apprehension.
Ouch, I celebrated W's 40th birthday and our 15 yr anniversary. Oh well, not a LOT of damage done, the anniversary was awkward but we got through it and we actually had fun with the boys.
Then why in the heck are you in ANY contact with her? I mean, having an interest in her would be worse, I GUESS but the thing is, you must be testing your wife or trying to annoy her or help your fragile ego.
I don't get why you'd be in touch with ANY woman at this moment in your m!
No excuse for it.
What are you trying to prove? Your neediness? Have you NO friends to talk with? Y
ou know, MALE friends or female relatives?
Geez....this is ANOTHER example of something she'd never be "allowed" to do without you having a tantrum.
But you do it and expect her to have no response OR you want her to be jealous.??..and you seem to be hurt/pouting that she's not jealous. Hey buddy, you wore out the whole "jealousy" thing with your wife years ago. If she were the jealous type & didn't adapt to your reality (e.g., the escorts) - she'd have gone off the deep end long ago.
Sheesh....
25 - that was my previous thread you replied to, so I'll quote your response and answer it here.
First, I no longer have any contact with that woman. That stopped last week. Since then, my wife has asked me on two occasions whether I'm still talking to her.
Next, I think you're way off base with regard to my thoughts and feelings regarding this woman I was speaking to. I wasn't trying to prove anything, and no, I don't have that many friends that I can talk about my situation to (in fact, only two friends, and they give me advice which is in contrast to DB).
I don't know what you mean by "this is another example of something she'd never be allowed to do w/out me having a tantrum". You totally lost me there.
And jealousy plays no part in any of this.
My contact with that woman (actually she contacted me 1st) was 100% platonic and it was simply somebody to talk to who had gone through a similar event in life. It would have been no different had she been a man.
You were painting her horribly, but that's NOT how she said it at all. Why not say, word for word what she said and not put any spin on it?.
Good point.
Also, the mind reading and projecting is tiresome for me. I keep having to remind myself about how you assume the worst of her based mostly on your own past behavior, which is SO unfair. You assume she's doing what you did to her, scheduling the trysts and all.
I'm not basing any of it on my past behavior. I am not assuming she's doing what I did to her. It's different.
so the "fact" that she's with OM is actually IN FACT, just your assumption? Oh Good grief...she 'never actually mentions him"....! How can you keep this game of victimhood up so well??
It's an assumption much like the assumption that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. She waits until the kids are asleep and waits until 10:00PM or later to leave the house. I am 100% certain the overnights are spent with the OM. If she is going anywhere else (e.g. out with friends), she always tells me the details.
I don't. Just Stop it. If you cannot see what YOU are doing here, I can. At worst, she's having an A-- but she is NOT throwing it in your face which you have made her out to be doing. I ASSUME you do this to make you look like a victim and her the worst of all cheaters...but I really don't know.
No, she is not throwing it in my face. But she's having an A, for certain. I'm not sure why you're trying to suggest otherwise. I would LOVE if it was otherwise!
To me, She seems to be TRYING to get along with you.
She's giving you the truth about where she's going - and showing you her calendar to prove it, so you can check it (not that you should) and that is why SHE is being transparent with you!
Agreed, she is trying to get along with me. I used to be consumed with wondering the reasons why she is doing so. Is she stringing me along? Keeping me sane so I don't hurt her, her career, or the OM? Is she genuinely concerned for my feelings and well-being? I stopped playing that guessing game long ago.
"And jealousy plays no part in any of this."
Actually it does whether you intended it to or not. Based off of your past track record, you've shown that you can't be trusted one on one with women. At least that's what your W sees.
And your denials of no interest in this women falls into the same patterns that you had with the other women you had affairs with.
How do you think you would feel if you were your W? She would just see your relationship with the OW as the same old mindsin.
Very good point MrBond.
Also, I should mention that this morning, she once again asked if I was dating. I said no. She said that I should.
I said that I don't think it's a good idea.
"If by chance you come back to me, I wouldn't want to be stuck in a relationship with another woman. That's a situation I don't want to be involved in."
I continued, "...Besides, I wouldn't know what to do anyways (dating)"
She replied, "You did pretty good with me."
I said, "No I didn't. I didn't know what I was doing back then."
She laughed, "Yeah, you really didn't."
You said you "had a backslide" when you reached out to her with your neediness. That's a fair assessment. But you kept on going...each time you contacted her was a step backwards - it's as if you were intentionally Undoing the DB work.
And now you seem upset and disappointed in the results. That's what baffles me. Why are you surprised? And please please do NOT forget the past!
bdub, she actually tells me that she is "spending an overnight" or "staying overnight". Nowadays, she never mentions his name, or where she's staying, etc. I assume that it is with the OM, and I never ask.
SIGH...at least state that you are doing this. Instead, You continue act as if she has TOLD you that she is "with OM tonight and tomorrow night' but she has never said that. And you have never asked her who she'll be with. But you paint her here, as some nastily slut who brazenly throws OM in your face.
Also I'm curious about what she called you after the 3rd or 4th time she caught you in an affair? (IF Anything) I think you called her a Wh--- or sl--. when you found out about the OM.
What about the first time she found out you paid for OW? Did she cry in front of you?
What did you tell her then, about the other women? Did you promise not to do it again? Did you blame her for not meeting your needs, or what? How did it "resolve" each time?
And didn't you just say this OM went back to his wife? How can that Not be a good thing? It sure isn't bad.
I am virtually certain that it is ALWAYS with the OM because when she spends days with her friends, she is very detailed about who she's going to be with, where, and what time, etc.
Then ask her, or don't. But until you KNOW, at least admit you are assuming. Meanwhile, what are you doing to become the better catch?
Tell me how you treat her and why she'd choose you over OM, as you are today.
And the 180s and the GAL? Any NEW subjects or topics or skills coming up for you? Career growth?
Did you look into the workshop in Philadelphia called "Essential Experience"? I think you'd benefit by an intensive 3.5 day workshop that forces you to look at yourself without rehearsing your answer, and figuring out how to change your life, regardless of what your w does/says/plans.
IT's very profound. Check out their website. Many other DBers have attended and all have said it's Life changing. Definitely faster than therapy once a week b/c that is good BUT can be fragmented.
I'm really concerned that you continue to be blind to your behavior as you seem unaware of the previous damage to her, which you caused.
Nothing your wife is doing, is being done in a vacuum. Put it all in context.
It'll make a lot more sense then, I think.
That's it for the moment. Good luck!
Regarding my R with the woman I met online
It turned out that she had gotten attached to me emotionally and was hoping we could connect on a romantic level. After I had told her that I had no interest, she told me she was hurt and that she would cut off contact with me. I wished her good luck in her life.
I told my wife what happened and she replied sarcastically and condescendingly, "So she was just counseling and sharing her experiences with you -- at least that's what you communicated to me. Riiiiiight"
Do you see why she said this? Do you understand that to HER< this is more of your old self?
You say you don't "Love" the OWs, so um, I guess you just like having them around you like before....
So all she sees is more of the same, (except now you throw in your indignation about HER "cheating" with OM),
whom you assume she's cheating with, while YOU Post online to other women.
This is so wacky....
Ouch, I celebrated W's 40th birthday and our 15 yr anniversary. Oh well, not a LOT of damage done, the anniversary was awkward but we got through it and we actually had fun with the boys.
I don't mean to undermine what a DB coach said, but I feel somewhat strongly that if the marriage produced children, that should be acknowledged. I think the kids feel better about their existence
b/c I KNOW my oldest two kids both asked if I felt that having them, was the reason for our marital strife.
TO which I replied, "God no. Having you guys is why we work at trying to stay to together!"
Anniversaries are reminders for them of the positive impact they've had on us. Truly, if the only way I could have those children in my life, was to go thru this entire ordeal, I'd do it all again in a heartbeat. Like sending a picture of them with a note saying something along the lines of "It's still worth remembering", or "we did something right!" etc. And nothing romantic in it (that's pursuit).
Just food for thought.
I sent an e-mail to my W this morning thanking her for being so accommodating to me (Sunday). I continued and said that she has always been a good wife to me in that regard, and has always been accommodating to my needs (which isn't exactly true, but she believes it is).
Why are you pursuing her like this? It's obvious that you are pressuring her for more R talk. IT's not crucial information about the kids or finances.... You don't even believe what you are saying so how on earth are you helping things?
I then went on to say that I should have communicated with her better but didn't because I was avoiding potential conflict scenarios, and I assumed (mind-read) what her responses would be. I said I recognized that this was not her fault and was very unfair to her.
but you still mind read and it's still unfair.
Are you going to stop it, or just talk more about how you "recognize it"?
Awaiting her response...
BINGO!...You are blatantly "awiating her response"
That is NOT what you should be doing with your time!
And what is there for her to respond to? It's MORE about you discussing your changes...(as opposed to making the changes)
Detach....
You said you "had a backslide" when you reached out to her with your neediness. That's a fair assessment. But you kept on going...each time you contacted her was a step backwards - it's as if you were intentionally Undoing the DB work.
And now you seem upset and disappointed in the results. That's what baffles me. Why are you surprised? And please please do NOT forget the past!
I am certainly not intentionally undoing the DB work. You're right -- each time I contact her is a step backwards. But I'm caught in a bind a lot of times. I don't want to "go dark" on her. One of the major complaints she had about me in our marriage was the fact that I "clam up" and "shut down". I never share my thoughts and feelings with her. Even now, she hints to me that she wants me to open up to her. It's hard finding that balance. I struggle with it every day.
SIGH...at least state that you are doing this. Instead, You continue act as if she has TOLD you that she is "with OM tonight and tomorrow night' but she has never said that. And you have never asked her who she'll be with. But you paint her here, as some nastily slut who brazenly throws OM in your face.
Also I'm curious about what she called you after the 3rd or 4th time she caught you in an affair? (IF Anything) I think you called her a Wh--- or sl--. when you found out about the OM.
What about the first time she found out you paid for OW? Did she cry in front of you?
What did you tell her then, about the other women? Did you promise not to do it again? Did you blame her for not meeting your needs, or what? How did it "resolve" each time?
And didn't you just say this OM went back to his wife? How can that Not be a good thing? It sure isn't bad.
There is absolutely no way on God's green earth that it could be anything else than spending nights with the OM. Trust me on this. But you know what? Whether or not that's the truth is
irrelevant because regardless of where she's going or who she's with, I
should not be focused on that.
I did not call her a wh--- or sl-- when I found out about the OM. She did cry in front of me the 1st time she found out. Yes, I did tell her I wouldn't do it again and I did blame her for not meeting my needs. It never really resolved any of the times. We never fixed it. We simply let time pass and just didn't really talk about it. We were both so focused on raising our children. It seemed secondary. Obviously, that was the wrong approach.
The OM went back to live with his wife at least for that week when I was away. I don't know if it's temporary. I don't know if he's still there or not. I have no additional knowledge of their situation at this point.
Then ask her, or don't. But until you KNOW, at least admit you are assuming. Meanwhile, what are you doing to become the better catch?
Tell me how you treat her and why she'd choose you over OM, as you are today.
I think I treat her well. I respect her space and privacy and respect her time. I am very accommodating to her with regard to making sure the household is kept up while she works long hours and even when she spends days with the OM. My thought is simply that I am responsible for my household. I am more communicative and have become a better father -- paying close attention to the children's needs as well as their day-to-day (e.g. school, etc). I got a new haircut, which my wife complemented me on, and I am more physically fit/attractive than I was a couple of months ago.
At this point, I can't answer why she'd choose me over the OM, other than the fact that I am a great father to her children. She knows that I will do anything for them, and doesn't see the same with the OM with his children. He reluctantly moved back home with his W to help take care of the children while she tends to her ailing father. I don't know how much stock she puts into that, but if anything, I don't think it works against me. If it were me, I would have moved back home immediately. Children come first.
And the 180s and the GAL? Any NEW subjects or topics or skills coming up for you? Career growth?
Still the same 180s and GAL as before. I didn't engage in anything new. I really have no interest and time, to be honest. The only things that I'm thinking of considering is joining some kind of sports league (basketball, tennis). The job prospect that I thought died on the vine has actually come back into the realm of possibility as I received an e-mail from their HR just a few hours ago.
Did you look into the workshop in Philadelphia called "Essential Experience"? I think you'd benefit by an intensive 3.5 day workshop that forces you to look at yourself without rehearsing your answer, and figuring out how to change your life, regardless of what your w does/says/plans.
IT's very profound. Check out their website. Many other DBers have attended and all have said it's Life changing. Definitely faster than therapy once a week b/c that is good BUT can be fragmented.
I'm really concerned that you continue to be blind to your behavior as you seem unaware of the previous damage to her, which you caused.
Nothing your wife is doing, is being done in a vacuum. Put it all in context.
It'll make a lot more sense then, I think.
That's it for the moment. Good luck!
I did not look into that workshop, but I will definitely check it out. Thanks.
I don't mean to undermine what a DB coach said, but I feel somewhat strongly that if the marriage produced children, that should be acknowledged. I think the kids feel better about their existence
b/c I KNOW my oldest two kids both asked if I felt that having them, was the reason for our marital strife.
TO which I replied, "God no. Having you guys is why we work at trying to stay to together!"
Anniversaries are reminders for them of the positive impact they've had on us. Truly, if the only way I could have those children in my life, was to go thru this entire ordeal, I'd do it all again in a heartbeat. Like sending a picture of them with a note saying something along the lines of "It's still worth remembering", or "we did something right!" etc. And nothing romantic in it (that's pursuit).
Just food for thought.
I can certainly see your point. In my case, I have made a lot of effort (early on) to point out to my W of what damage D will do to our children. "Think of the children!"
Also, she feels that one of the primary reasons why she didn't leave me earlier in the marriage was because of the children.
If sense that if I go that route (sending her a photo & note), it may backfire for two reasons.
1.) It will just be a painful reminder to her of the period in her life while her H cheated on her as she was tending to her young children.
There was one time she pointed out that she was at home, 8 months pregnant with our 1st child, and she was in pain. She called and texted me to know where I was, why I wasn't home yet, etc. In the back of her mind, she had a hunch that I was out with an escort. I called her back and gave her some BS excuse of where I was, what I was doing, etc. This hurt her deeply.
2.) It will simply be "more of the same" -- me trying to manipulate her into staying in the marriage for the kids' sake.
"I have made a lot of effort (early on) to point out to my W of what damage D will do to our children. "Think of the children!""
The problem with you telling her that is that it made you the biggest hypocrite. Your situation is different from the others on here because of you were the one who betrayed her repeatedly and you were blessed to have her not leave you. You just didn't want to see it.
That's why you can't apply the same techniques the majority of posters on here are using.
What Bond said^^^...
Now that I reflect more, and based on your comments/Bond's I retract my advice about mentioning the kids. IN your situation, with the history you have, it's better not to remind her of how long her needs were unmet and how often she was lied to.
Back off from making so many demands and bringing up the R. It's way WAY too early for that. And your thread title about "seems like an eternity", well, look at MY signature block and you can probably imagine what I think of your timeline.
But maybe you can't....so I'll say it directly. 3 months is nothing. I've heard that for every year of misbehavior/misconduct, it takes one month of consistently different new behavior, to get your spouse to entertain the concept that you have changed.
So you have a ways to go - and I'm not sure you've really begun acting consistently different. So I'm not sure you can say the clock is yet ticking.
Make sense?
MrBond, 25,
I agree with what both of you are saying.
Interestingly, the day the OM leaves out of state this month (26th) will mark the 3 month anniversary of BD. I know 3 months is nothing and I have a long LONG way to go.
My W never mentioned what she will do when he moves away. She has no intentions of moving down there with him (she says). For all I know, he may fly back every weekend just to see my W.
I know I'm supposed to not focus on the OM and that my W's decision to leave is independent of the OM. But it's just so hard to accept that concept because logically speaking, I know how much more the odds are stacked against me with OM in the picture.
Something my W said to me about 6 weeks ago may be worth noting -- "I know that you say there are solutions and that our marriage can be fixed. And maybe if [OM] didn't come into my life, I would have tried to fix it with you. But you have to understand, I'm really in love with [OM]. You have to believe me."
MAYBE, maybe she is...and then I'd tell myself, "so what?"
Feelings change all the time. If they didn't, then not many people would divorce.
Of course, do NOT argue about her feelings with her. Do not tell her that her feelings will change.
No matter how tempted you are, that will push her into his arm MORE...so don't challenge that. It just forcers her to defend it. Do you get that?
mindsin - I have a similar situation as you, but maybe twice as long now. I have gotten impatient and have thought the same things as you - I'm sure.
At about 3 months in, she said the same things - I love him, I didn't think it was possible to love 2 men......
I was pushing at the time - thinking that was the right thing to do - we went to MC and everything. It didn't "fix" anything and it probably hurt the situation and timeline. Later she said, she just wasn't ready to change things, deal with it, even though she said she knew she wanted to. She was just not in the right mind frame.
I believe if I was giving her the space and time to work through things back then - as I am trying to now, we may be in a better place. The pressure was just doubling the problems and I really didn't understand or believe there was nothing I could do about the A. Only become a better person for me and potentially for us.
No matter how tempted you are, that will push her into his arm MORE...so don't challenge that. It just forcers her to defend it. Do you get that?
Understood.
mindsin - I have a similar situation as you, but maybe twice as long now. I have gotten impatient and have thought the same things as you - I'm sure.
At about 3 months in, she said the same things - I love him, I didn't think it was possible to love 2 men......
I was pushing at the time - thinking that was the right thing to do - we went to MC and everything. It didn't "fix" anything and it probably hurt the situation and timeline. Later she said, she just wasn't ready to change things, deal with it, even though she said she knew she wanted to. She was just not in the right mind frame.
I believe if I was giving her the space and time to work through things back then - as I am trying to now, we may be in a better place. The pressure was just doubling the problems and I really didn't understand or believe there was nothing I could do about the A. Only become a better person for me and potentially for us.
Yup. You, me, pilot, and one other person here have almost identical current situations, but my past is very different in that I betrayed her multiple times by my selfish acts of betrayal to meet a need that my W was not fulfilling.
I have a tall mountain to climb.
I am certainly not intentionally undoing the DB work. You're right -- each time I contact her is a step backwards. But I'm caught in a bind a lot of times. I don't want to "go dark" on her. One of the major complaints she had about me in our marriage was the fact that I "clam up" and "shut down". I never share my thoughts and feelings with her. Even now, she hints to me that she wants me to open up to her. It's hard finding that balance. I struggle with it every day.
--
She did cry in front of me the 1st time she found out. Yes, I did tell her I wouldn't do it again and
I did blame her for not meeting my needs. It never really resolved any of the times. We never fixed it.
Look at your wording here^^^..."She did cry"...."WE NEVER FIXED IT"....and "Yes I did blame HER for not meeting MY needs"..."IT never really resolved any..."
There is nothing in there saying that YOU wronged her and YOU did not resolve it or fix it. You blamed HER for YOUR actions, and then you lumped her in with you, for not resolving it, as if you Both were supposed to stop You from cheating...
see a pattern?We simply let time pass YOU simply let time pass and hoped she wouldn't leave you.and just didn't really talk about it.
We were both so focused on raising our children. It seemed secondary. Obviously, that was the wrong approach.
Mindskin, I doubt VERY seriously that it "Seemed secondary" to HER. I mean, Notice how that^^ comment lets YOU off really lightly. Maybe if she had cracked down earlier you might not have killed so much of what she felt.
Dang, I do feel badly for you b/c I think this woman really loved you & you probably loved her a lot too. I do worry that you put her thru he11 and I hope very much that her love for the kids will lead her to want to repair things with you.
But you're not in much of a position to throw that in her face, b/c you really did a number on her...well, we can try to go "from this day forward" like the vows say. Just don't let your recall be too self serving again, or she'll really flee into OMs arms.The OM went back to live with his wife at least for that week when I was away. I don't know if it's temporary. I don't know if he's still there or not. I have no additional knowledge of their situation at this point.
--- until you KNOW, at least admit you are assuming. Meanwhile, what are you doing to become the better catch?
Tell me how you treat her and why she'd choose you over OM, as you are today.
I think I treat her well.
You might not be the best person to assess that accurately.
I respect her space and privacy and respect her time. I am [b]very accommodating to her with regard to making sure the household is kept up[/b]
as opposed to what? Leave aside OM for a minute.
What else would you do, mess up the house while she's working and then expect her to clean up when she gets home?
Hey I'm not trying to bash you; I just want to show you that the self serving bias you have isn't really serving you well. You overstate your contributions to the marriage, and gloss over the devastating blows you have landed on her.while she works long hours and even when she spends days with the OM. My thought is simply that
I am responsible for my household.
yes you are
I am more communicative and have become a better father -- paying close attention to the children's needs as well as their day-to-day (e.g. school, etc).
This^^^ is good and it's meaningful. It matters. It's the "upside" of this ordeal and I mean that. I got a new haircut, which my wife complemented me on, and I am more physically fit/attractive than I was a couple of months ago.
Good for you. Taking care of yourself is key in many respects. You'll feel better at a time when your ego could use it.
And I think IF you keep up these changes, treating her WELL, there's a good chance that when the OM leaves, and she sees you interacting lovingly with the kids, she could come around.
But do Not feel as if she owes you that, okay?
B/c YOU telling her to "think of the kids", is something which you did Not do all those years, and is probably too hypocritical for her to hear.
It could infuriate her ( if I were in her shoes, it would irk me to have you throw anything in my face about cheating being bad for the family etc) The longer it takes you to understand that, the worse for You.
At this point, I can't answer why she'd choose me over the OM, other than the fact that I am a great father to her children. She knows that I will do anything for them, and doesn't see the same with the OM with his children. He reluctantly moved back home with his W to help take care of the children while she tends to her ailing father. I don't know how much stock she puts into that, but if anything, I
don't think it works against me.
I also doubt it works against you.
But then, maybe she'll recall how you left her alone to cheat on her when she was pregnant, and not feeling well. When pregnant women are sick, often the baby is endangered... and that didn't get you home b/c you didn't even answer the phone when she called and texted you,
so if she AND the baby had been dying, you would not have even known, let alone been there for her or the baby.
So She may not see much difference between OMs "reluctantly going home to his children" (how do you know how he felt?) and you Not being available to her when you were with OWs. (OR she may see OM in a better light)
And just so you know -b/c I don't think you realize this-but historically speaking, (in this country at least)-
when men cheat on pregnant wives, it is seen as a serious betrayal, terrifying to women at our most vulnerable times and is the behavior of a "Cad"...
the closest thing to it to men, is like when soldiers go off to fight in wars, and their wives cheat.
It's just NOT done by honorable people, you know?
I I just wanted you to take that into consideration b/c it's a psychological blow to a woman's need for security AND fidelity from her partner. Security is not just physical security (but it's that too,) the need to feel safe.
And how can a woman feel safe if she can't find her husband when she's carrying his child and she's ill? It's not a safe feeling at all. She is at her most vulnerable. Add to that, the other strong need women have of their men -- fidelity...it's easy to see how her love tank became empty...
you are on thin ice, so you really have to be careful. Do NOT lose your temper. Do NOT bring up OM. (Read the Newbie Rules again if you have to, but stop all the obsessing about him, and work on YOU and keeping things at home NICE)
Keep up the fathering activities and take up some GAL soon. Bring something to the table that is interesting. A new passion or hobby or language or maybe even something SHE likes, that you'd also like to learn.
Dance lessons might be a bit much now, but in time...?? I don't know her or you, (but I DO know I fell in love with my h on the dance floor on our first dozen dates.)
Tennis, art classes, woodworking, anything you would like to do that is new and stimulating and gets your mind off the marital situation, etc.
If it were me, I would have moved back home immediately. Children come first.
Not so fast....i mean it's easy for you to say NOW -- but like I just said, when she was carrying your child and she/they were sick, she could not reach you by phone...
See, there are things all of us have done that we want to forget...but when we DO forget them... that's NOT good or helpful to us. It's also not fair to those whom we've hurt.
And the 180s and the GAL? Any NEW subjects or topics or skills coming up for you? Career growth?
Still the same 180s and GAL as before.
I didn't engage in anything new. I really have no interest and time, to be honest. The only things that I'm thinking of considering is joining some kind of sports league (basketball, tennis).
I will post about this^^ b/c I think you are really missing out on something very important. Plus you sound depressed and that is NOT appealing, even if it's understandable.
Realize one thing: The reason GAL is hammered so much here is simple; it works.
It helps you detach (I'd argue that you CANNOT detach without GAL), and it helps you grow and it helps you Change.
You become more interesting and inerestED in others. Those are valuable gifts
and you ignore this - at your peril.
The job prospect that I thought died on the vine has actually come back into the realm of possibility as I received an e-mail from their HR just a few hours ago.
that's good news! I'll keep my fingers crossed!
Did you look into the workshop in Philadelphia called "Essential Experience"? ---
---
Nothing your wife is doing, is being done in a vacuum. Put it all in context.
It'll make a lot more sense then, I think.
That's it for the moment. Good luck!
I did not look into that workshop, but I will definitely check it out. Thanks. [/quote]
I hope you do. Keep on keeping on, and hang in there.
Please don't overlook the importance of GAL.
Like I said, it helps you detach which You simply have to do.
It's also good for you; makes you more well rounded, sets a good example for the kids to see their parents taking an interest in the world around them, (not being couch potatoes) and or taking care of their bodies or contributing to the community, or having FUN doing something purely for the joy of it. I can't imagine living with someone who had no hobbies or outside interests other than work and family.
Even though GAL isn't done FOR the WAS to notice, it's hard to overlook it. thing, Doing or learning new things demonstrates change in you. Think about that symbolism.
For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. Back then, I had 3 kids including a baby (so you know I don't want to hear about how you are 'too busy' to GAL).
Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.
I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.
I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).
I auditioned for community theater and met some Very fun creative people. I got cast in shows, too.
I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.
I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.
I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.
I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.
Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.
I went skydiving! I Loved it so much I did it again! And I plan on doing it again, soon! Very very cool.
Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)
I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. Found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs.
(Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly cold of the LONG winters).
In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.
Saw a therapist and for some months, I went on ADs.
Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).
Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.
(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)
Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking
There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot.
Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.
it'll do you well to look into doing something new/healthy and or Different.
It really will help.
Holy s---!!! Where did you find the time for all of that??? You must have been completely transformed!
And thanks again for your words of advice. Yes, now that I see your analysis of my words, I do see how self-serving I am. I feel like there is a key to unlock myself from this mode of thinking. Maybe if I focus on the thought that NOTHING that is happening right now can be criticized because ANYTHING that is criticized will be laced with hypocracy. I think that may be a place to start.
I have to get it in my head that it's not about being right or wrong. If I approach it that way, the competitive side of my personality will always try to "win".
With regard to GAL - both my wife and I are interested in playing tennis again. We used to play together all the time, but it's been a couple of years since. Would you advise that I approach her about playing?
"Hey. How about we hit some balls together after work one of these days? We're both rusty and could use the practice before joining a league."
Do you think that's too much pursuit?
Another point I want to make is that my after-work schedule is very busy. When I take the kids home, between homework, bathing, reading, etc., it is a full evening. I'm afraid that if I start engaging in other hobbies or activities, it will take that valuable time away from my children.
Weekends are also tough because my W typically spends one day every weekend with the OM, and the other day with the family. I cherish my family weekend days. When my wife is out with the OM, I am left with the kids. I could certainly leverage my in-laws (who live locally) to watch them, but my W doesn't like that. That was the source of our scheduling conflict last week. She wanted her parents to rest on the weekends and didn't feel it was OK for me to drop them off there while I spend a day with my friends.
25years--
I'm also very curious how you fit in time for those activities while home by yourself with young kids. Did you work outside the home? Did you have sitters? Can you give a clearer picture of how you balanced your life?
I struggle to fit in time for my day to day stuff, and am reluctant to give up time with my D, or pay for sitters. I have some time on the weekends that I use to see friends or run errands or frankly, catch up/rest.
Thanks!
At this point, do NOT invite your wife to YOUR GAL activities.
Read about GAL more in the book, b/c for you to suggest that as a GAL, with her, is really missing the point
It's not a bad idea for a future activity as a couple (but if you are that competitive then maybe it is a bad idea)
but for GAL, you do NOT invite your wife.
More later...
Please don't overlook the importance of GAL.
Like I said, it helps you detach which You simply have to do.
---
Even though GAL isn't done FOR the WAS to notice, it's hard to overlook it. thing, Doing or learning new things demonstrates change in you. Think about that symbolism.
For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. Back then, I had 3 kids including a baby (so you know I don't want to hear about how you are 'too busy' to GAL).
Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.
I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.
This was a volunteer job that meant two-4 days a month. There was day care at the shelter.
I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).
For this^^ My h or son watched the baby when we had games/practices and occasionally I hired a sitter. Other parents also helped b/c I was coaching for free and they wanted to help. FWIW, you might be surprised to know how many other women or families (or single dads) will trade ONE day/evening a week with you and watch your kids. Granted that means ONE of your days/evenings is devoted to their kids, but since I had kids of my own, it tended to mean that one afternoon or evening a week, I'd have kids that my kids could play with, over at the house. And that was a win win.
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).
I don't recall this ^^ volunteering as a problem b/c many of the parents helped out when we had meetings. I don't remember if there were times I needed to hire a sitter but if I did, I did.
I auditioned for community theater and met some Very fun creative people. I got cast in shows, too.
THIS^^^ required the most planning. I made a "deal" with my family in advance and each year, that if I got a part, which meant 8 weeks of 3-4 evenings a week, they'd have to agree ahead of time. They almost always agreed. Over the years I average one show a year (8 weeks of 52).
In terms of demands on them this was the hardest, but they seemed to like me being on stage, or maybe they enjoyed MY delight in it.
There were times I had to hire a sitter for this, but it was pretty predictable if it came to that. Also more than once I had roles with one of my older kids also in the play. Notably, both of them majored in theater and film and are now in the industry. They began doing theater after watching me do it. Meaning, it affected their career goals (for better or worse).
I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.
Stand up comedy prep work is mostly done at home or with a fellow comedian as a colleague.. The performances themselves are less than an hour. Not a big deal compared to having to prepare for it. Always a weekend.
I usually did my comedy "buddy" work with another comedian, by phone, and tweaked the material as much as I could before going on stage. Stage time itself was not a problem. I'd return in 2 hours. Not many jobs let you return in 2 hours.
I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.
I'd sometimes do this with the kids right after school let out. Either one would come with me and the other would watch the baby, or I'd go alone for an hour when the kids got home.
In the last winter there, their arrival home usually meant almost the end of daylight so I had to hurry outside if I wanted to get some sunlight. I would take the snow machine and go to the target range. It helped me get OUTSIDE in the winter - which was vital for feeling sane.
I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.
This^^ was usually done with family members. Arrangements were made to go deep sea fishing with my son, hunting was done with all, and we each enjoyed skiing. By the third year, the baby was a toddler who liked to sled when I went skiing.
I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.
I did this^^ as often as possible. Refreshing, invigorating, and fun for them too.
Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.
This^^ cost money but was a long held dream of mine. H also did it, and because of that it was not hard to arrange child care for each of us to trade.
I went skydiving! I Loved it so much I did it again! And I plan on doing it again, soon! Very very cool.
^^^My kids came and watched, and my oldest d22 joined me. (The first time It was my birthday!) The second time, h and I had reconciled and he went and jumped too.
There is something very symbolic about skydiving. Maybe "taking the jump/risk" and then having the chute open, is just such a powerful empowering experience. Hard to explain but really wonderful. I Highly recommend it.
Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)
^^^This was work I did from home. However part of the pay was a big game hunt I did a year later, and by then H wanted to join, as did our son.
We got our limit and it was a reverent experience. I'm glad I did it and got a caribou for our family, but I don't think I need to do it again. H loves hunting. The editing work continues and is done mostly from home.
I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. Found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs.
This^^ was done at a gym with daycare sometimes available. Sometimes I'd hire someone or have the older kids watch the baby if it was in the day. H also supported my getting in shape enough to help when pressed. After the work outs if I had it planned in advance, I'd have a drink or light meal with the friend and it helped me get out of the house and usually NOT discussing h or the marriage.
(Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly cold of the LONG winters).
Losing weight with a newborn is not easy. I had to exercise AND diet and that was new for me but it's just the truth. I think the effort was worth doing so the kids could SEE that it does happen. Meaning, you can gain weight and you can get rid of it, if you make enough effort, you can do it.
I made a weekly plan and tried to stick by it, and involved them in making it at times. At least once a week I hired a sitter (sometimes it was a neighbor who traded childcare with me; it did not always involve money) and did something with my older chidden. Ideally if you GAL, your spouse will notice in a positive way and may try to help out. I say, depending on the activity, let them.
In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.
^^^Not terribly time consuming...I don't recall how the childcare worked.
Saw a therapist and for some months, I went on ADs.
Same thing, not very time consuming. On one occasion or two, I brought the baby.
Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).
That ^^was weekly for 6 weeks. Not a big deal but I still have the vases and fruit bowls and coffee mugs. It's cool to make something of your own that you can use. I enjoyed it more than I expected. Don't recall having childcare troubles with it.
Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.
(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)
This ^^ turned into a real social asset. My two friendships from there saved my sanity, and when I have fond memories of those years, those women are usually in them. I'm so grateful for that. Also, it helped b/c a lot of us needed childcare help and were able to trade it around more. So that was another byproduct of joining.
Joined a writer's group
Did a lot of writing at home and then did the readings twice a month. Later some of the writings (the ones with scripts) were produced in a play festival. I don't recall any conflicts with childcare.
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking
These classes^^ were once a week, and I did not take them concurrently. It's not that hard to take ONE night a week to go to a class. But it sure carries over and makes you feel pretty good.
There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot.
Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.
it'll do you well to look into doing something new/healthy and or Different.
It really will help.
You don't have to do these all at once. Knowing you WILL do them, often helps. I did these GAL things over a 3 year time period.
I also wrote a lot of columns for the newspaper- but that came up when some issue riled me enough, and when that happened, I'd take an hour or 2 to get fired up and write when the baby slept.
Also, housework was NOT a priority to me when it came time to trade off something to balance out my life. Then again, hiring a housecleaner also reduced marital conflict a LOT...when I worked outside the home, I hired one. When I stayed at home that was a rarer event, but now and then you just have to have someone else clean your house and let you SEE IT DONE and then enjoy it.
Other than a few of these^^, the real "cost" was trading child care or paying for it or sacrificing some time with your other kids. But my kids did not feel burdened by their sibling care or at least they don't say so now. I also know the kids are all very close despite a gap in their ages (the oldest is 12 years older than our youngest but they're very close). And there is a lot of value in your chldren seeing you as a person NOT just there for them...not just cooking their meals and caring for them but also as an individual with interests outside of them.
Not to sound selfish but to be healthy. Plus, don't forget, the alternative to a lot of these activities was to be depressed and inert, which is what I was sorely tempted to do. I had to set an example for them of an active person, not a spectator. In places like Alaska where the winters are so harsh, many people retreat in those months. I just could not emotionally afford to do that.
I do LESS now, b/c I'm in a sunny warm place and don't have the same need to go outside just to survive, if you know what i mean.
I can tell you one thing I'm positive of; it was worth it.
.
Thanks 25. This is really helpful. I'm still figuring out how to balance career/motherhood and GAL... while also getting enough time to rest and recharge (I'm an introvert... so while I enjoy going out with people and socializing, I do need down time afterwards...
You've given me lots to think about in terms of how to fit stuff in with a little one.
25 - can you give me advice on what to say or do here (if anything)?
I found out today that they're making me an offer. I'm very excited!
I shared this news with my W, and she was very happy for me. She suggested we should go celebrate tonight. I didn't ask her what that means. Dinner? Just the two of us?
She followed that up with her schedule for this weekend. She is basically spending the weekend with the OM, staying over Fri, Sat, and Sun nights.
She talked about that canceled event from the previous Sunday that they've rescheduled this sunday. She's also explained that they are going on a sunset cruise sunday night, which is why she will be staying over sunday too.
I know I shouldn't be, but I'm sort of angry about this. She just assumes that I have nothing better to do on my weekends. This is the first time she will be spending 3 nights in a row.
Should I say anything back to this? It was in an e-mail. I was thinking of simply ignoring and not responding. But I also want to make it clear that I am NOT ok with this.
As crazy as this might sound, I almost feel like she thinks I'm supportive of her affair and will simply accommodate her schedule at all times, which I have been with little to no objection.
I was thinking of this as a response:
"When you spend nights with [OM], it makes me very sad, and at times, makes me feel taken advantage of.
I'm not asking anything of you, and I'm not looking for a response. I'm simply expressing my feelings.
That's all. I hope you enjoy your weekend."
I was thinking of this as a response:
"When you spend nights with [OM], it makes me very sad, and at times, makes me feel taken advantage of.
I'm not asking anything of you, and I'm not looking for a response. I'm simply expressing my feelings.
That's all. I hope you enjoy your weekend."
I'm not 25yrs, but at first glance, I would suggest you not use the above example as a response. Not that I am great with wording anything, but as a WAW, she may see this as sounding weaker than you intend it to be. It isn't really answering her subject of celebrating (if I understood it correctly) and you may choose not to reply at all. I would just not tell her how sad and taken advantage she makes you feel when she's with OM. Also, are you sure you want to say all of that and turn around and tell her you hope she enjoys her weekend? Isn't she spending it with him? Sounds a little wrong to me.
Just my thoughts.
25 - can you give me advice on what to say or do here (if anything)?
I found out today that they're making me an offer. I'm very excited!
This ^^ is wonderful news. Congratulations!
I shared this news with my W, and she was very happy for me. She suggested we should go celebrate tonight. I didn't ask her what that means. Dinner? Just the two of us?
She followed that up with her schedule for this weekend. She is basically spending the weekend with the OM, staying over Fri, Sat, and Sun nights.
See, MY problem with this^^ is that I, 25, am NOT sure she's going to be with OM. I have to trust that you are right on this, but I'm not at all sure you are.
IF you are not right and you blow her off, then you're really blowing it.
But let's assume you are correct in your assumption that she will be with OM (so tell me why she lies to you about it?)
See if she were throwing him in your face, declaring that he is THE ONE for her, it'd be something you have to confront.
But do you ever wonder if she is 1) NOT seeing him, and that's why she makes such an effort to explain where she'll be, and never mentions him, OR 2) she is trying him out and seeing if your changes are real?
I'm not saying either way, but I sure don't like making choices in a vacuum.
She talked about that canceled event from the previous Sunday that they've rescheduled this sunday. She's also explained that they are going on a sunset cruise sunday night, which is why she will be staying over sunday too.
I know I shouldn't be, but I'm sort of angry about this. She just assumes that I have nothing better to do on my weekends. This is the first time she will be spending 3 nights in a row.
So you are angry that she assumes you have no plans for the weekend? IF it were me, I'd be angry that she was with another man, even if I knew I'd shoved her that way.
Have you ever told her that you REALL GET IT NOW, that you must have hurt her a lot b/c you now know how it feels?
Should I say anything back to this? It was in an e-mail. I was thinking of simply ignoring and not responding. But I also want to make it clear that I am NOT ok with this.
IF your assumption about her being with OM is accurate, there's NOTHING to say. There is no way she thinks you are okay with being with him. It only serves to weaken your position to have to say anything about it, AGAIN, as if you are clearing up her perception of you as her bff... I am with Sandi on this. Say nothing. Plus if you are not going to DO anything about it and she knows how you feel, it's wasted words...not appealing.
IF you are really SURE of this^^ OM issue, please ask your DB coach about what action to take, if any, but do NOT tell her the above.
As crazy as this might sound, I almost feel like she thinks I'm supportive of her affair and will simply accommodate her schedule at all times, which I have been with little to no objection.
Maybe you should make some plans. In fact I would and I would not mention them specifically to her. Be vague but excited about what YOU will be doing while she's on her sunset cruse (and tell me what her job is that a sunset cruise is part of the deal.)
I was in the Army and we had one of those, but that was the week before we were being deployed so I can't say it was all that rich feeling...
This ^^ is wonderful news. Congratulations!
Thank you, and thank you for taking the time to reply to this. I read it just in time before I said anything back to her.
See, MY problem with this^^ is that I, 25, am NOT sure she's going to be with OM. I have to trust that you are right on this, but I'm not at all sure you are.
IF you are not right and you blow her off, then you're really blowing it.
But let's assume you are correct in your assumption that she will be with OM (so tell me why she lies to you about it?)
She doesn't lie to me. In fact, she has made the point on several occasions that she has been 100% truthful in everything since she told me about [OM]. She simply doesn't point it out nowadays in order to spare my feelings. She's even told me that the reason why she doesn't tell me where she's going with [OM] is because just that -- to spare my feelings. She said this to me last week.
See if she were throwing him in your face, declaring that he is THE ONE for her, it'd be something you have to confront.
She's not throwing him in my face, but she did in fact declare that they are "soulmates", etc. She has previously told me that she considered just leaving me and NOT saying anything about the OM. In fact, one of her best friends suggested just that. She decided otherwise because she said she felt it was best to just be honest and up front about it.
But do you ever wonder if she is 1) NOT seeing him, and that's why she makes such an effort to explain where she'll be, and never mentions him, OR 2) she is trying him out and seeing if your changes are real?
I'm not saying either way, but I sure don't like making choices in a vacuum.
1) No chance. There is no way that she would simply be playing games with me just to get me to change or to see if I can change.
2) Possible. All the talk about being soulmates, etc., is typical WAW talk. I know.
So you are angry that she assumes you have no plans for the weekend? IF it were me, I'd be angry that she was with another man, even if I knew I'd shoved her that way.
That's of course a given. She knows that. She doesn't need me to tell her that I'm not happy that she's with another man.
Have you ever told her that you REALL GET IT NOW, that you must have hurt her a lot b/c you now know how it feels?
In the beginning, yes. Several times, both verbally and through e-mail.
IF your assumption about her being with OM is accurate, there's NOTHING to say. There is no way she thinks you are okay with being with him. It only serves to weaken your position to have to say anything about it, AGAIN, as if you are clearing up her perception of you as her bff... I am with Sandi on this. Say nothing. Plus if you are not going to DO anything about it and she knows how you feel, it's wasted words...not appealing.
IF you are really SURE of this^^ OM issue, please ask your DB coach about what action to take, if any, but do NOT tell her the above.
Ok, I won't say anything. I will not focus on her and her activities. I will only focus on me.
Maybe you should make some plans. In fact I would and I would not mention them specifically to her. Be vague but excited about what YOU will be doing while she's on her sunset cruse (and tell me what her job is that a sunset cruise is part of the deal.)
No, this is has nothing to do with work. She is spending the day in the city with the OM going on a food/cultural tour, then spending the evening on this cruise around the harbor. She spelled this out in the e-mail.'
I could make plans, but I'm afraid she might think I'm doing it out of spite just to interfere with her plans. She would be forced to ask her parents to watch our kids, and she may be uncomfortable doing so. "Hey dad, I'm going to spend the day with [OM] so can you watch the kids"? I don't think that'll happen. Her parents object to the OM and my W knows it.
Mindsin,
This situation strikes me as really difficult-- you are not separated... but not in a monogamous R either. It doesn't seem ok for a spouse to just simply say, "I'm taking off this weekend" or even for individual days/nights on a regular basis. I don't think I could handle that.
I'm no vet, but I feel like you guys need to establish some kind of parenting schedule. Because if you are operating out of fear that she will be mad:
She would be forced to ask her parents to watch our kids, and she may be uncomfortable doing so.
how is that getting her to respect you? She can't just walk away from her parenting responsibilities...
what happened when you were with your OWs?
I know about the time she tried to reach you when she was pregnant and you were with an escort ( and that hurt her etc)
but what about these types of things? Did you just leave her to handle the kids?
In other words, what "customs" did you guys have then?
25 -
I will answer your questions, but first let me give you a bit of back story.
My "hobby" started in 2006 and I remember the 1st time I got caught. It was a simple text message that I sent asking for a girl's hourly rate. She saw it on my phone. I said that I was simply curious but I never actually did anything.
The next couple of times I got caught was a similar thing (text or e-mail), except I confessed that I've been going. I lied about the frequency and the details.
The final time was in 2011 when she saw an e-mail thread I had with an independent escort negotiating services. There were words said in that thread that were very hard for her to read.
The below section may sound like I'm blaming my wife, but please keep in mind that I'm simply telling you what my thoughts and feelings were. Regardless of what I was feeling, infidelity was not and is not an excuse. Much of this (or all of this) could have been prevented had I simply been able to communicate better with my W.
Rewind back to 2005. My wife spent much of the year living in Asia on a business assignment. I was home alone. For the first time in my life, I was responsible for myself and my home. All the responsibilities required to keep up a houshold fell on my shoulders. I feared the thought of it, but after a while, I felt good about it. It even got me motivated enough to start losing weight (I was heavy my entire adult life). I lost about 60 lbs that year. I looked and felt great.
We never had a good sex life. In fact, there was one period where we went almost a year w/out having sex. Her reasoning was that she is not a very sexual person, and doesn't really care about it. She said she's also not the kind of girl to initiate intimate contact. This is what she said, but deep down, I felt that maybe it was because she wasn't attracted to me physically.
So after my wife came back from Asia, I was so excited to show off my new self. While she was happy for me and thought I looked great, nothing really changed in our sex life. My W herself is someone who seemingly is obsessed with her physical appearance so I thought that was the answer. It was not.
I've learned recently that my love language is physical touch. All I wanted was for my W to touch me, without me being the initiator. Just once, I wished I'd come home from work, and she'd greet me at the door and just put her arms around me and kiss me. Things like that just never happened.
I don't really remember the 1st time, but I do remember it was at a local massage parlor (you know the ones with blacked-out windows and a single neon sign that says "open"). I don't know what it was that made me walk into those doors that fateful night. But I remember feeling incredible during the hour I spent there, and guilty and confused on my drive home. I was hooked after my 1st visit. Massage parlors soon turned into escort services.
2007 was a milestone year. My grandmother (who raised me from birth) passed away and later that year, our 1st child was born. To this day, it kills me that she was never able to see my son. I thought that I would be able to stop now. But I simply couldn't, and I didn't have the courage to talk to my wife about what was going on. I was living a lie. This is the way it went on until 2011, after she found that e-mail. Back then, she said she was leaving me, but never followed through.
Over the next few years, the elephant in the room was never really talked about. She started occasionally, and then frequently, poking comments (usually in a sarcastic manner) at me about my past. "Well maybe one of your massage girls would like that". "I guess that's kind of like when you were seeing escorts". It got to a point where it was almost friendly joking banter. For example, she would make one of her remarks, and I would reply, "Wow, are we really going there?" She'd reply, "Oh yes my dear. I've got more where that came from."
I hope that back story gives a little more insight to our marital dynamic.
what happened when you were with your OWs?
I know about the time she tried to reach you when she was pregnant and you were with an escort ( and that hurt her etc)
but what about these types of things? Did you just leave her to handle the kids?
In other words, what "customs" did you guys have then?
They were usually done in 1-hour sessions. Before we had children, it was easy. After our 1st child was born, I had to find more creative ways. I'd usually take time away from work (calling in sick, etc). It was in the middle of the work day. My wife was usually at work (or traveling), and my son was staying with her parents (who are retired) during the day.
I kept my double-life very well hidden from her. I never spent evenings or nights (or overnights). When my wife came home from work, I was almost always there. The time I told you about when my wife was 8 months pregnant and calling me -- that was a rare occasion.
Wife invites me to dinner again
She texted me just a little ago saying that she is proud of me (regarding my new job) and wants to go celebrate.
It will just be the two of us.
Since BD, every time she wants to go to dinner with me (w/out the kids), there is usually something up -- To go over details of controlled separation agreement, To grill me about the OW I was talking to online, etc.
This time, I feel there is no "agenda" and she simply wants to spend time with me. I'm going in with that exact mindset. I'm going into this with no pressure. I will not pursue. I will not engage in R talk, or talk about our future (or at least try not to).
On the drive up, she was excited for me to tell her about the job offer. She was disappointed when I told her the salary. When I told her about the offer and my counter-offer, she was sort of irate that I didn’t ask for more. She felt that I sold myself short, and I think she was upset that I didn’t consult her before making the counter-offer. Perhaps what she doesn’t realize is that this is MY job opportunity and I’m not asking for her help. She’s no longer my mother, and I no longer lean on her. My career is my decision – an adult decision that I should be steering my way – not steered her way. In the end, she said, “it’s your life”, as if to free her hands from me. Good. That’s what she should be doing, and that’s what I want. I didn’t feel that I needed her advice in this situation. It’s my career that’s on the line, not hers.
We had dinner at a nice restaurant. Our food, drinks, and conversation was great. I think this is the first dinner we had where there was no agenda. But, she did bring up the situation a few times, and I tried to deflect as best as I could.
She asked me, “When you see me naked or changing, I notice you turn your head away. Why?”
I said, “Well first, you’re very beautiful, and I don’t want to get myself excited. Second, I want to be respectful and don’t want you to think I’m gawking at you.”
She had this saddened, emotionally-pained look on her face. It’s the same face she had the night when I apologized to her about Victoria and offered transparency on my phone. I’m not sure what it means, but I know I’ll drive myself crazy trying to analyze it.
She also asked how I’m doing overall (with regard to the current situation). I said, “My feelings haven’t changed since the beginning, how I choose to deal with it, has.”
She interrupted, “But you went back and forth a lot in those e-mails (about whether I truly loved her or not)”.
I said, “I know I did. Back then, I was over-analyzing – searching for answers, and trying to provide you with an explanation and conclusion. What I realize now is that my feelings haven’t changed at all. It’s the same as it was a month ago, a year ago, 10 years ago.”
Again, she had that saddened look on her face again and said nothing.
We somehow got into a conversation about Ray Rice and domestic abuse. She said that she was never able to relate to women who would stay in abusive relationships, but after what she went through with me, she can. She realizes that she stayed for three reasons. First, because she was in disbelief that this was happening. Second, because she wanted to protect me. Third, because she didn’t want to expose the shame of being in that situation to her family and friends.
She went on to say that she talks to her cousin every couple of weeks. Her cousin checks in on her to make sure she’s OK. She has told her that she needs to periodically assess three things. One – make sure she is talking to someone about the situation. Two – make sure the kids are taken care of. Three – Be sure that it is worth it (her decision to leave me). That third part was hard to hear. When I asked her “make sure it’s worth what?” she simply said “This – what I’m going through”.
She says her two other friends tell her the same thing. I simply replied, “They sound like good friends”.
She will be spending three consecutive nights with OM over this weekend. That was initially painful to me, but I feel that now is not the time to say anything about it. I know that she is living an open double life. I know she is taking advantage of me, and is borderline being a negligent parent. I have been advised (by my DB coach, as well as her father) not to push the issue.
Even last night, I’m the one who has to “hide the kids from mom’s late night trysts”. I almost wanted to say, "If they hear you leaving and ask where you're going, then that's your problem."
It’s like I’m supporting her A. I want to do anything but.
New exercise program
Wife just bought a new exercise program (via infomercial), received it today and asked if I wanted to do the program with her. We just did our first workout, and we both feel good. It's a 10-week program which should finish up right before we go on our cruise.
Shortly, we'll be heading out along with her parents to celebrate her birthday. She wanted to do it tonight because she's busy next week on her actual birthday. She didn't say what she will be busy doing and I'm not going to ask.
25 - anything you can offer here is appreciated. Thanks.
Signs of things turning around?
My FIL revealed to me yesterday that he had a recent conversation with my W, in which my W told him that she has given the OM an ultimatum with regard to divorcing his W, and devoting himself to my W. The OM is currently hesitating to file D, because of his W's father's health situation.
My FIL gets the feeling that my W is starting to realize that she is the 2nd woman in the OM's life.
I know that I'm not supposed to be focusing on the OM/OMW and their situation, and that even if things don't work out between my W and the OM, it doesn't mean she will run back into my arms. I will always keep that in mind.
In other news...
The OMW contacted me last night. She sent me a txt saying, "can we talk"? I'm very tempted to engage her, but history tells me that every time I do, it gets back to my W and things turn ugly.
I want to do the honest thing and simply tell my W that the OMW contacted me. However, the OMW might be trying to work things out with the OM, and if the OM is anything like my W (My W says he is exactly like herself), he will not be happy that she reached out to me. If I tell my W, then my W will tell the OM, which means I could indirectly be dealing a negative blow to their chances at getting back together.
I know little to nothing about their current situation, so I'm simply guessing here. But I'm trying to weigh my options. My gut tells me that I should just be honest with my W, and let the chips fall where they may.
I don't know where it fits in on a DB scale, but what's wrong with speaking to the OMW? You're both in the same situation and can support each other, tough noogies if the cheating spouses don't like it. They're making choices -- which they're free do to -- and these are the consequences. Surprise!
I watched a movie last night called The Other Woman, in which a man's girlfriend discovered he was married and she and the W ended up becoming bosom buddies and getting through the situation by leaning on each other. You get your support where you can find it, in my opinion -- even if it comes from sources you didn't count on.
Two Sided Coin,
"but what's wrong with speaking to the OMW?"
Because that is what got him into this problem in the first place. Plus it's hypocritical because of his past numerous affairs.
I suggest you read back on people's histories before commenting on a post.
I don't know where it fits in on a DB scale, but what's wrong with speaking to the OMW? You're both in the same situation and can support each other, tough noogies if the cheating spouses don't like it. They're making choices -- which they're free do to -- and these are the consequences. Surprise!
IF you read the DB books, the answer to why you do Not do the aboe^^^ is in both books. Mindsink has outlined them above as well. Just b/c something is tempting does not make it the smart thing to do. It's RARELY if ever, helpful. It's not our job to "teach lessons" to our spouses; it's not our job to "show them the consequences" of their choices. LIFE DOES THAT FOR THEM and already minksink sees his wife struggling along with her choices.
He need not add to the trauma of it all.
Define your goal and ask yourself if talking to OM's w is going to push you closer towards it or farther away from it.
You can also ask your DB coach for their reasoning. Since you're not the one reaching out, it's slightly better I guess, but I think your (ie. mindskin's) analysis of what his wife's reaction would be, is probably accurate.
I watched a movie last night called The Other Woman, in which a man's girlfriend discovered he was married and she and the W ended up becoming bosom buddies and getting through the situation by leaning on each other. You get your support where you can find it, in my opinion -- even if it comes from sources you didn't count on.
Why not get support from your kids or their kids? OH, b/c it's inappropriate to lean on them or involve them and it will hurt THEM? Yes exactly that.
Same for this situation so no, I don't buy the "get support where you can find it" but again, Two Sided, you'll have your answers when you read the book
Til you do read them, maybe you can hold off a bit from advising things that go against the books, b/c they form the basis of this site's approach to marriage and divorce. OFTEN we must resist the urge to punish or expose
(even while we pretend it's something else like "just being honest", we must be honest with ourselves about what we are doing and why)
When the OW's baby daddy revealed the A to me you can be absolutely certain he was the very last person I wanted to turn to for support. Nor did I have any desire whatsoever to support anything about his $&@ of a girlfriend. I was 100% in kill the messenger mode. Just the sight of his name made me nauseous. In fact I don't like to say that name out loud anymore, even when it refers to someone other than him.
I say now that he may have done me a kindness by letting me know. But I'm not sending him chocolates for doing me such a dubious favor.
Follow MWD. Just because something makes sense from your perspective doesn't make it the right thing to do.
On the drive up, she was excited for me to tell her about the job offer. She was disappointed when I told her the salary. When I told her about the offer and my counter-offer, she was sort of irate that I didn’t ask for more. She felt that I sold myself short, and I think she was upset that I didn’t consult her before making the counter-offer. Perhaps what she doesn’t realize is that this is MY job opportunity and I’m not asking for her help. She’s no longer my mother, and I no longer lean on her. My career is my decision – an adult decision that I should be steering my way – not steered her way.
In a healthy marriage, discussing these ^^^^matters is normal. It's not her being your "mother"; it's her being your partner. She and the kids benefit/suffer from your choices.
As a Lawyer, I do a lot more negotiations work than my h, who is medical and does zero negations. So he often asks me to handle car purchases and, on occasion how to word something at a new job, when they ask him compensation questions. I see nothing wrong with that (except that your m is in a weird status)
but your reaction seems defensive. Is it the present circumstances or would you usually react this way?
Are you embarrassed that she wasn't more proud? Are you a bit taken aback that she expressed the belief you should have held out for more? Is it a done deal?
Are you reading into her words or did SHE SAY she thought you could have gotten more etc? Is the real reason it bothers you, b/c down deep she might have a point? How do you feel about the talk, now?
Do you see how earning more would affect your family? Have you had financial problems in the past?
In the end, she said, “it’s your life”, as if to free her hands from me. Good. That’s what she should be doing, and that’s what I want. I didn’t feel that I needed her advice in this situation. It’s my career that’s on the line, not hers.
We had dinner at a nice restaurant. Our food, drinks, and conversation was great. I think this is the first dinner we had where there was no agenda. But, she did bring up the situation a few times, and I tried to deflect as best as I could.
She asked me, “When you see me naked or changing, I notice you turn your head away. Why?”
I said, “Well first, you’re very beautiful, and I don’t want to get myself excited. Second, I want to be respectful and don’t want you to think I’m gawking at you.”
Mindsink, do you have any sense as to why she asked you this^^ question?
To me, it's a clear (glow in the dark) she feels she is NOT attractive to you. That also explains to her, the escort services....PLUS you told her you did Not love her and never did! Yes,
sure you "retracted" that comment but it's still out there. Just b/c WE SAY "I take it back" does not mean it's not still hurting her.
There are some words that are a lot harder to take back and some things, one cannot simply "take back"...the "I must never have really loved you or I would not have been with other women so much" is one of those lines that stings for a darn long time.
So she has cause for deep pain and good cause to doubt your feelings for her. Even now your answers seem too vague and as if you won't blurt out anything risky. Saying "I feel the same as I did"....well that sounds like "I'll treat you the same".
IF you are asked a direct & emotional question, and IF you decide to answer it, answer it fully and answer it well. Maybe --
"I love you very much. The single upside to this whole ordeal is that I realize how incredibly lucky I was to have you as my mate; you're gorgeous and sexy and so smart and have been such a good mom to our children. I want to grow old with you and I'm excited about the changes I'm making to become the h you deserve"...now, that is an answer she'd recall.
It is pursuit but like I said, IF you are going to answer a direct, important emotional question at all, then do it right and with full honesty. It's alright to tell her you are concerned that if she knows how you really feel, she'll flee b/c it sounds so passionate and intense (which is appealing!!)...
Also note that in your backstory you DO blame your wife for your choice to see OWs.... You say "she didn't like sex" and maybe that is true...but did you ever ask her WHY?
Did you ever ask her how you could please her more and do it? You just wrote it off to her not liking sex, but the thing is, she must like sex now, or she would not be with OM.
I know that's ^^ hard to thnk about, but if you do reconcile, it may mean you have more to work with, in terms of intimacy. Sounds as if she is different now, or maybe she always was, and now you know. It could be a win win later on.
She had this saddened, emotionally-pained look on her face. It’s the same face she had the night when I apologized to her about Victoria and offered transparency on my phone. I’m not sure what it means, but I know I’ll drive myself crazy trying to analyze it.
It means she was hurt!
She also asked how I’m doing overall (with regard to the current situation). I said, “My feelings haven’t changed since the beginning, how I choose to deal with it, has.”
She interrupted, “But you went back and forth a lot in those e-mails (about whether I truly loved her or not)”.
She's asking you if you are really committed to being with her in a new or different (BETTER) way. She's still hurt from how you negated the marriage to her, (right when she'd just met OM. I wonder if it was your pride talking to tell her more or less "So what? I don't care"..???)
Mindsink, Remember the letter I posted to you from another WAW? You never commented much on it, but that letter could have been written by your wife. Did you see that?
I said, “I know I did. Back then, I was over-analyzing – searching for answers, and trying to provide you with an explanation and conclusion. What I realize now is that my feelings haven’t changed at all. It’s the same as it was a month ago, a year ago, 10 years ago.”
Again, she had that saddened look on her face again and said nothing.
You need to work on that answer...it is underwhelming and unconvincing
We somehow got into a conversation about Ray Rice and domestic abuse. She said that she was never able to relate to women who would stay in abusive relationships, but after what she went through with me, she can. She realizes that she stayed for three reasons. First, because she was in disbelief that this was happening. Second, because she wanted to protect me. Third, because she didn’t want to expose the shame of being in that situation to her family and friends.
What did YOU say in reply to ^^ that?? It's pretty significant.
She went on to say that she talks to her cousin every couple of weeks. Her cousin checks in on her to make sure she’s OK. She has told her that she needs to periodically assess three things. One – make sure she is talking to someone about the situation. Two – make sure the kids are taken care of. Three – Be sure that it is worth it (her decision to leave me). That third part was hard to hear. When I asked her “make sure it’s worth what?” she simply said “This – what I’m going through”.
She says her two other friends tell her the same thing. I simply replied, “They sound like good friends”.
well, what did they tell her?
She will be spending three consecutive nights with OM over this weekend. That was initially painful to me, but I feel that now is not the time to say anything about it. I know that she is living an open double life. I know she is taking advantage of me, and is borderline being a negligent parent. I have been advised (by my DB coach, as well as her father) not to push the issue.
Then abide by their advice, which I'm pretty sure also says Do NOT JUDGE her, let alone as a mother right now, and the "taking advantage" of---2 thoughts.
1) this is temporary, b/c at some point she will end things with you OR Om as she is not content to live this double life and that's obvious. IF not, YOU can end things so worrying that this "is your life forever" is unreasonable. You do have choice.
and 2) Due to your history I think it's hypocritical to discuss how SHE is taking advantage of You. Again you are saying things SHE could say about you just as well.
Lose that scorecard (b/c among other reasons, you are still NOT ahead on it).
Give the DB approach a real chance & Listen to your DB Coach.
And don't talk to our FIL about your wife's visits to OM....that has to be a bad bad idea...
Even last night, I’m the one who has to “hide the kids from mom’s late night trysts”. I almost wanted to say, "If they hear you leaving and ask where you're going, then that's your problem."
It’s like I’m supporting her A. I want to do anything but.
See above. I'm sorry for your pain, I hope it will make you into a more empathetic partner in the future. I also hope you'll discuss with your coach some possible ways to respond to her future inquiries.
I feel strongly that her attraction to OM is at least partly due to feeling attractive to him.
Next time she asks you a question that reveals such a vulnerable side to her (when she's naked is about as vulnerable a time that exists) please be more affirming and clear and specific.
Why you are attracted to her and what about her physically and emotionally and mentally, etc.
NOT the 'I love you so much b/c you are loving"..(which is like saying "I love you BECAUSE you love me" which makes no one feel special)
..be specific with the compliments, remark about traits and qualities in her that you admire or love. Can you do that if she gives you the chance again? She wants to know she'll be treated better and that you won't change back if she returns.
I felt sorry for her when I read that question.
Good luck MS, you are working hard and making changes that I truly think will benefit you more than you can tell at this point.
but your reaction seems defensive. Is it the present circumstances or would you usually react this way?
It's the present circumstance. I normally am very receptive of her advice. I think part of my reaction also had to do with the fact that I'm working really hard to be independent and I felt she was undermining this.
Are you embarrassed that she wasn't more proud? Are you a bit taken aback that she expressed the belief you should have held out for more? Is it a done deal?
No. I knew she would have a neutral to negative reaction when I told her the offer (which is more than what I'm making now, but probably much less than what she thinks I should be making). Yes, it is a done deal. I told her that I was OK taking a little less because this is such a great opportunity and will really turbo-boost my career. I told her there was value in that which supercedes my initial salary. She hesitantly agreed.
Are you reading into her words or did SHE SAY she thought you could have gotten more etc? Is the real reason it bothers you, b/c down deep she might have a point? How do you feel about the talk, now?
She actually said it. She said my counteroffer should have been higher. She 'might' have a point, but it was a chance I was not willing to take. Anytime a counteroffer is made, there is a chance that their 2nd choice candidate looks attractive enough to rescind the offer and move forward with the other guy.
Do you see how earning more would affect your family? Have you had financial problems in the past?
We didn't have financial problems, but I have contributed negatively to our finances -- most significantly the money I spent on the escorts. I was also fired from several jobs over the last 10 years and she sees me as someone who is a failure in my career.
Mindsink, do you have any sense as to why she asked you this^^ question?
To me, it's a clear (glow in the dark) she feels she is NOT attractive to you. That also explains to her, the escort services....PLUS you told her you did Not love her and never did! Yes,
sure you "retracted" that comment but it's still out there. Just b/c WE SAY "I take it back" does not mean it's not still hurting her.
That is very hard to believe. Through the years, I've always been very physical with her (a little too touchy-feely, if you ask her). I always tell her how beautiful she is and rebut anything she says to the contrary.
So she has cause for deep pain and good cause to doubt your feelings for her. Even now your answers seem too vague and as if you won't blurt out anything risky. Saying "I feel the same as I did"....well that sounds like "I'll treat you the same".
Ugh! You're absolutely right.
IF you are asked a direct & emotional question, and IF you decide to answer it, answer it fully and answer it well. Maybe --
"I love you very much. The single upside to this whole ordeal is that I realize how incredibly lucky I was to have you as my mate; you're gorgeous and sexy and so smart and have been such a good mom to our children. I want to grow old with you and I'm excited about the changes I'm making to become the h you deserve"...now, that is an answer she'd recall.
It is pursuit but like I said, IF you are going to answer a direct, important emotional question at all, then do it right and with full honesty. It's alright to tell her you are concerned that if she knows how you really feel, she'll flee b/c it sounds so passionate and intense (which is appealing!!)...
Good stuff, 25. But the reason why I held back is exactly that -- because I felt it was too much pursuit.
Also note that in your backstory you DO blame your wife for your choice to see OWs.... You say "she didn't like sex" and maybe that is true...but did you ever ask her WHY?
Did you ever ask her how you could please her more and do it? You just wrote it off to her not liking sex, but the thing is, she must like sex now, or she would not be with OM.
You know what though...if I put in the effort to be intimate with her, she almost always responded positively. It was just MY desire for her to initiate. She wants to feel wanted, and so did I. I felt like I was doing all the work, so I wasn't sure if she wanted me, or was just doing it to "get it out of the way" so I'll leave her alone. I never had that deep conversation with her though. I was such a fool!
She's asking you if you are really committed to being with her in a new or different (BETTER) way. She's still hurt from how you negated the marriage to her, (right when she'd just met OM. I wonder if it was your pride talking to tell her more or less "So what? I don't care"..???)
I don't think I ever gave her that impression (so what - i don't care). I sure hope not anyways.
Mindsink, Remember the letter I posted to you from another WAW? You never commented much on it, but that letter could have been written by your wife. Did you see that?
Yes I do. I actually showed it to her a while back and asked if this is how she feels (probably not smart). She said yes.
What did YOU say in reply to ^^ that?? It's pretty significant.
I didn't say anything really. I only listened. I simply looked at her in the eyes and nodded the whole time.
well, what did they tell her?
They told her that she is not the right girl for me, and I'm not the right man for her. She said that her friends made her realize that we're incompatible with each other.
And don't talk to your FIL about your wife's visits to OM....that has to be a bad bad idea...
He asks me. "Has she been staying home?" "Where is she going this weekend?" I feel comfortable telling him. He has seemed to make a much more enthusiastic stance in trying to save my marriage lately (since I came back from my trip). Why do you think this is a bad idea?
See above. I'm sorry for your pain, I hope it will make you into a more empathetic partner in the future. I also hope you'll discuss with your coach some possible ways to respond to her future inquiries.
I feel strongly that her attraction to OM is at least partly due to feeling attractive to him.
Next time she asks you a question that reveals such a vulnerable side to her (when she's naked is about as vulnerable a time that exists) please be more affirming and clear and specific.
Why you are attracted to her and what about her physically and emotionally and mentally, etc.
NOT the 'I love you so much b/c you are loving"..(which is like saying "I love you BECAUSE you love me" which makes no one feel special)
..be specific with the compliments, remark about traits and qualities in her that you admire or love. Can you do that if she gives you the chance again? She wants to know she'll be treated better and that you won't change back if she returns.
I felt sorry for her when I read that question.
Good luck MS, you are working hard and making changes that I truly think will benefit you more than you can tell at this point.
Thank you very much.
Question -- I was thinking of writing her an e-mail to sort of revisit some of those questions she asked me the night we had dinner. You noted that I inadequately answered or addressed several of them, and I agree. I want to make it known to her that she is the most beautiful woman in the world to me and that this whole ordeal has made me realize just how special she is. The love I feel for her now is stronger than I ever remember it being. I also want to address the comparison she made to a physical abused woman. I want to let her know that I understand why she feels that way and apologize for making her feel that way.
Do you think it's too late at this point? Maybe I just need to answer better next time I get the chance to. I feel like I hold back on a lot of my responses to her. I'm not being 100% honest because I fear so much that I will say too much, or sound too desperate, etc.
Read carefully what 25 commented to you. In many of your responses, your pride still shines through.
That's why your W hasn't been trusting in your changes. Plus, you never mentioned that you lost so many jobs. Like the escorts, it does seem like it was a matter of you doing what you want and not considering a woman's basic need for security (incl. financial security) of her and her children.
MrBond - you are right.
I will confess -- this will be the first time (since the start of my career) that I will be leaving a job on my terms (not getting laid off or fired), and it feels great. Tomorrow I'll be resigning and I'm VERY nervous about confronting my manager.
Last night, my W gave me some very good advice on how to talk to my manager and manage the logistics of this transition. I am thankful for that.
Birthday
Her birthday is tomorrow and I'm starting to get anxious. I found myself wanting to get her a card with some heart-felt words from me. My DB coach suggested that I simply get her a card and gift "from the kids".
After her appreciation of the cake I got her on Saturday (birthday dinner with her parents and our kids), I'm starting to think that she is perhaps more receptive to my acts of thoughtfulness than I had thought, even though they technically qualify as pursuit.
On Saturday night, she thanked me for the cake. I played it off by saying, "well our son did a great job picking it out".
Sunday morning, she took the time again to thank me via text.
"I want to thank you for getting me the birthday cake. That was very sweet and thoughtful (and obviously unexpected from my PoV)!
I simply replied, "You're very welcome".
Hey mindsin-I like the idea of the cards and gift coming from the kids. It allows you to be thoughtful as you want, it allows the kids to get attention, and it is understood where it all came from - you.
My kids are older, but I would still try to redirect these occasions back to them.
I blew it this morning
So I sent a text to my W thanking her for her advice in how to handle my resignation. I resigned from my job this morning.
She replied that she's always been my biggest supporter and is proud of me. She asked if it felt good.
(Here's where it went downhill...)
Me: Feels good, but to be honest, it's a little bitter sweet because of what's going on with us.
W: I understand. Sometimes life takes us on unexpected twists and turns. I believe everything I go through is a learning experience.
Me: Up until 3 months ago, you have always been my lighthouse. Just know that I will always be yours.
Last Friday at dinner, I said that my feelings for you have never changed. I was wrong.
My love for you is stronger now than it has ever been. It flows through my soul like an energy that serves as a driving force in everything I do. And it kills me every day that I can't express this love to you. I am trying as best as I can to give you your space. It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
Ugh!!! Did I do a lot of damage to myself here???
MrBond - you are right.
I will confess -- this will be the first time (since the start of my career) that I will be leaving a job on my terms (not getting laid off or fired), and it feels great. Tomorrow I'll be resigning and I'm VERY nervous about confronting my manager.
Last night, my W gave me some very good advice on how to talk to my manager and manage the logistics of this transition. I am thankful for that.
This^^ is good stuff!
Don't burn bridges with your present boss. You want to leave on good or at least decent terms. Saying the new job will give you the chance at more responsibility than you believe you'll get where you are now, and or more room for advancement and a better salary/benefits etc MAY make your boss want to compete with them.
Be ready to be resolute, if you really are.
Also as a side note, here are some things about the salary negotiations in the future that I learned b/c I had great mentoring from a headhunter's corporation on this issue.
You will NOT get passed over for a job b/c a counter offer is too high IF You word it in a way that isn't stubborn or a "take it or leave it" way. I've never heard of that. I HAVE heard of idiotically worded counters that get rejected but it's not the number that got them rejected; it was their arrogance.
You can also counter with something like 'you offered 'x' and I think that's pretty far from the number I had in mind, based on what I bring to the table and how good a fit we are with each other.
So, Is your first offer a 'final offer"?
(It's VERY rare that a potential employer will only give you one offer. They are almost always prepared to move upwards, with the only exception to that being a government job. Even there, I've been able to get step increases to meet my needs in the event that the "rank" is only such and such. I have been given that "rank + years of experience" to make it right even if the years are not exact.
I've also said "so is your first offer your final offer" and never been told "yes".
I've tried not to counter too specifically b/c I want them to come up with the numbers, but I'd again point to my potential or past contributions (e.g. "raising their 3rd party recovery by 30% in 6 months", etc).
When I've accepted what I thought was a bit low b/c of other advantages, which it sounds as if you are doing, I've also said "well, I think that's a bit low given what I expect to contribute - so how about I accept your offer and you agree to review my salary in 3/6 months, rather than waiting a full year"? That way they can better assess your value.
SO far, every time I've said that,^^ they have agreed
and every time I've gotten the 6 month review, I've gotten a substantial raise. Usually something like 25-33% more than the starting salary.
My last job offered me a very decent acceptable amount, but I paused to swallow a little water and to process it. In those few seconds, the employer increased it by A LOT, just b/c my silence sounded like a rejection, I guess.
That was the Most "profitable STFU" moment of my life... 
Just food for thought. I learned that from Challenger, Gray & Christmas which is a great headhunter's corporation. Good training. ANYHOW, I digress...
Good luck at your job(s).
I blew it this morning
So I sent a text to my W thanking her for her advice in how to handle my resignation. I resigned from my job this morning.
She replied that she's always been my biggest supporter and is proud of me. She asked if it felt good.
(Here's where it went downhill...)
Me: Feels good, but to be honest, it's a little bitter sweet because of what's going on with us.
W: I understand. Sometimes life takes us on unexpected twists and turns. I believe everything I go through is a learning experience.
Me: Up until 3 months ago, you have always been my lighthouse. Just know that I will always be yours.
Last Friday at dinner, I said that my feelings for you have never changed. I was wrong.
My love for you is stronger now than it has ever been. It flows through my soul like an energy that serves as a driving force in everything I do. And it kills me every day that I can't express this love to you. I am trying as best as I can to give you your space. It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
Ugh!!! Did I do a lot of damage to myself here???
We can't tell b/c you didn't say what her reaction was. But drop it now. You also need to take your DB Coach's advice MORE, not less.
How'd you handle the birthday?
My DB coach must be the busiest one of the group. Yesterday, I scheduled one session a week away. That was her earliest availability.
I simply said happy birthday to her this morning. She later sent me an e-mail saying that she suspects that I and/or the kids have something in store for her (we do).
She said she will be having dinner with the OM, and come back home for a couple of hours. Then she'll be leaving again to spend the night.
Read carefully what 25 commented to you. In many of your responses, your pride still shines through.
That's why your W hasn't been trusting in your changes. Plus, you never mentioned that you lost so many jobs. Like the escorts, it does seem like it was a matter of you doing what you want and not considering a woman's basic need for security (incl. financial security) of her and her children.
THIS^^^ IS GOLDEN advice Mind's.
Feeling secure is mandatory for a woman to stay in a marriage.Some women stay in mediocre marriages
solely b/c the man is a good provider.So taking that security away or undermining it, by losing jobs or mismanaging money, is a deal breaker for many. Add to that, the escorts and you can see her point of view a bit more, yes?
Here was her reaction (via e-mail):
I feel today is a really special day. Other than it is my birthday, I feel we have much to celebrate. It is a monumental step you took to be the one give notice, and landing on a really good position. I really do hope you take this job opportunity seriously, and not treated like everything else in your life in the past, that it is a given and you don't need to work too hard to maintain it.
That said, I also understand our situation adds a layer of complexity and sadness for you. I appreciate your messages this morning. I really do. I understand it as well. For the most of the past 8 years, I have fought really really hard to keep us intact. I did everything, or at least I thought, to make you happy. I thought loving someone, is to keep their happiness above yours. So I understand what you must be going through by giving me my space right now.
I think you should look at today as the beginning of a new chapter in your life. I will always be here supporting you, as long as you will have me, and as long as we maintain an amicable relationship.
Read carefully what 25 commented to you. In many of your responses, your pride still shines through.
That's why your W hasn't been trusting in your changes. Plus, you never mentioned that you lost so many jobs. Like the escorts, it does seem like it was a matter of you doing what you want and not considering a woman's basic need for security (incl. financial security) of her and her children.
THIS^^^ IS GOLDEN advice Mind's.
Feeling secure is mandatory for a woman to stay in a marriage.Some women stay in mediocre marriages
solely b/c the man is a good provider.So taking that security away or undermining it, by losing jobs or mismanaging money, is a deal breaker for many. Add to that, the escorts and you can see her point of view a bit more, yes?
Absolutely I do. Even with this new job, she fears that I just treat it like my old jobs (more of the same - negative).
I think her wording was more about an over all attitude and not only jobs. She said
"...not treated like everything else in your life in the past, that it is a given and you don't need to work too hard to maintain it..."
Which means she felt badly treated and taken for granted, Inside the marriage.
But you already knew this, right? So nothing really anything new is here, and she seems to have taken what you said in a positive way.
Still, don't keep SAYING these things, just DO them. Words are so cheap.
Remember that she caught you 3 times having affairs, & after each painful discovery, you promised to stop.
But you went back on your word all those times.
So if she treats your words with doubt, be understanding of that.
You must begin to view these interactions as opportunities for you to BE YOUR BEST SELF.
But you really need to back off the expectations. Meaning, when you MUST communicate, be your best upbeat self, and show her the commitment you now feel towards the family, the joy you get from that, and that you expect nothing back from her.
Truly, expect nothing from her. If you get anything more than a civil response, be grateful.
This would count as a double 180 - b/c you'd be kind and upbeat towards her, without an expectation, and you would not be reactive to her not giving you more. You'd take it in stride.
THAT^^ would show change.
So, NO more pressure from you.
Make sense?
More OMW trouble (I screwed up again)
The OMW called me yesterday. I immediately put up my defenses and said that I had nothing to say to her. She only wanted me to listen, so I did. She thinks that her H is coming back to her, and pointed to several new developments in their lives that indicate this is true. The OMW was very upset over the phone because she feels that her H is still lying to her, despite the things he has said and done recently to indicate that he is dedicated to his W. She was so upset that she ended up leaving the house that night with the kids to stay at a friend's house. Her H was confused by her behavior and I think he suspected that she reached out to me. This of course reached my W while the two of them were having dinner celebrating her b-day.
Later that evening my W confronted me and asked if I've been talking to the OMW. I told my W that she called me today. My W asked me what was said. I told her that she was asking questions and I deflected (which is true), and that she told me things that's going on in her own marriage. My W was curious.
I told my W, that it's not in anyone's best interest at this time to reveal further details about our conversation. I told her to just realize that the OM could be lying to you in order to get what he wants.
If what the OMW is telling me is true, then he is playing both women to keep them close because he is on the fence.
My W, of course, was irate that I wouldn't tell her more.
I told her that she's in no position to believe me anyways. I said that she trusts a man she barely knows more than her husband of 15 years, and she'll do anything to defend and protect him.
She said, "If you believe I'm being deceived, then tell me."
I said, "I can't, because whatever I tell you will be relayed to [OM] and he'll go back to his W, which then breaks her trust in me. She will no longer tell me things at that point. I want her to keep feeding me information."
"As long as you put him first, I can't tell you. I'm on your side. Until I feel you're on my side, I can't tell you anything more."
I said, "You're free to continue believing everything about [OMW] through one person's PoV -- a person who is trying to convince you that he loves you more than his W of 14 years and the mother of his children."
"Also, I never asked to be dragged into this mess. You're the one who brought this drama into our family. I'm trying to actually distance myself from all this crap. I don't need it. I have enough going on in my life."
Her reply:
"Here is where my head is. I actually no longer care if [OMW] reaches out to you. It dawned on me that by her doing that, then you talking to her, then me finding out, and talking to [OM] -- nothing good will come out of it. I have decided that I will not ask you to tell me what she said, etc. I don't want to get into the 'he said, she said'. I am an adult who is extremely intelligent and capable of distinguishing lies vs truth. I will manage my relationship with [OM] on my own terms. I don't need outside factors. I never needed outside validation one way or another. At home, I will continue to concentrate on our two beautiful kids. I am starting a new job and I will focus energy on that as well. I will not waste energy on her anymore."
Me: "That's very sensible. I'm proud of you for taking that approach."
"Just like I no longer focus my attention on [OM]."
"The only time I will intervene is if I feel you're in danger."
Her response: "I only ask one thing of you. Don't tell her anything about me. Job, social plans, etc."
Me: "I never have, never will. Promise. I've got your back. In time, you'll see."
mindsin -- I don't see how you screwed up -- it sounds like you handled a difficult situation very well! You're giving your W support and reassurance (at the same time planting a seed of doubt about her R with OM).
At the same time, maybe it's best not to get involved too much with OMW's conversations, as it does set up an adversarial situation (the two of them against the two of you), and might draw them closer together in opposition. Even though it's tempting to get information, I'm not sure it helps in the long run, and it definitely seems to complicate them in the short run.