How quickly part 4 came and went...
Trying to stay patient Trying to stay patient- part 2 Trying to stay patient- part 3 Trying to stay patient- part 4 Last post in my previous thread was that W and I agreed to try to work things out. W asked that I set up MC session and agreed to drafting no contact letter as well as handing over passwords, phone, etc.
Last night we had D10's bday party at a nearby park. A couple of W's friends stopped by- I'm not sure if W has mentioned anything to them or not. W spent the night last night (on the couch). We seemed to get along fine, by I admit it seemed kind of awkward at times. Just along the lines of how to interact with her now. Trying to be friendly, but not overwhelming. Although we've been apart for almost a yr now, at times it felt like old times. Several times, W talked about things 'we' needed to do around the house.
W left this morning for work. I called after she left to discuss when D10's friends were being picked up and we talked about her plans for the weekend. She's going to a baseball game tonight with her old work group (asked me if that was ok) then taking the kids tomorrow to some caverns. She asked if I wanted to go, I told her I'd like to, but struggle with what (if anything we should tell the kids right now. Not fair to them for us to all of a sudden start hanging out as a family and not let them know what's going on, but it's also way too early to get their hopes up that we can work things out. Thoughts?
Talked briefly about setting up MC session for this week. My IC gave me a recommendation and they have a couples program. I think the no contact letter needs to be drafted and sent soon, just struggle on how to bring that back up with W- email her some templates to get started?
I look to everyone out there that's been through this on how to navigate these next steps...
She's going to a baseball game tonight with her old work group (asked me if that was ok)
You DO realize this is a red flag already don't you?
It was only a couple of weeks ago the following happened.
She used her mother as the excuse to see OM that time, right?
Be WISE here Tarheel.
This could be another cover for seeing the OM, sorry to say.
So the whole work group is going without their spouses? IF other spouses are going, why not you?
Or All women? To a baseball game?....
I say red flag again.
Here is what happened only a couple of weeks ago.
She lied then and she could be lying now.
Doesn't pass the smell test.
'I'm leaving tonight to head down to Florida for a few much needed "mental health days"...
I don't know why I procrastinate telling you these things.. Communication...One more of my crazy a** flaws...I've been dreading telling you for fear you'll be mad, or I'll be "in trouble". I told you I feel like you're my dad sometimes.
Feeling so messed up today- found out W did not go with her mom to FL, but instead with OM.
W and I text last night after I found out (she wouldn't answer my calls). Long story short, she claims that there are 15 of them there and she is not 'with OM'. She went to clear her mind and think about things. She's been going to church, praying for an answer, reading things...I have no idea why she was there, what she's been doing, it's not what I think it is, but she's tired of having this same conversation.
Tarheel,
Checking in....wassup? How are you doing?
Doing good Wonka.
W and I have done a few things as a family the last few days and are planning on doing something Monday with the kids. Nothing just the 2 of us yet, although we talked about possibly this weekend. W came over for dinner last night and is planning on coming over tonight and staying over.
MC is set up, but still almost 2 weeks away. She has a couples program, which I believe is based on the Gottman theory, so I'm looking forward to that.
W and I did have a phone conversation last night, just talked about how we're unsure how to interact right now- how often we talk, go out, spend time together?? I welcome any advice on that. I think she's feeling some pressure from me to jump right back into 'normalcy'. I'm trying to back off as I know we need to go slow, but do I send simple texts like 'how was your day?'
I also asked her to start the no contact letter last night. She did admit that she's given OM the heads up that we're working on things and they can no longer talk. Should I insist all contact ends immediately or is that better left for the MC session?
Trying to keep expectations low, but feel good about things so far. Communicating a lot more recently. I'm still validating and asking a lot of non R questions.
Now that she's agreed to MC and working on things, I do find myself questioning if this is really want I want. Will I be able to overcome and forgive? I use the analogy of wanting something because you can't have it, then you finally get it and question why you wanted it. I think MC will help me through that.
Other than that, I welcome any feedback on how to interact with W on what I consider this pre - piecing stage. I need more time (and action) before I'd consider this piecing.
Thanks JCred, I'm aware of what the baseball game deal is, so wasn't concerned with it. This was the night after we agreed to work on things and the mgr gets tix ahead of time, so it didn't bother me. I am keeping my eyes open though!
She's going to a baseball game tonight with her old work group (asked me if that was ok)
You DO realize this is a red flag already don't you?
It was only a couple of weeks ago the following happened.
She used her mother as the excuse to see OM that time, right?
Be WISE here Tarheel.
This could be another cover for seeing the OM, sorry to say.
So the whole work group is going without their spouses? IF other spouses are going, why not you?
Or All women? To a baseball game?....
I say red flag again.
Here is what happened only a couple of weeks ago.
She lied then and she could be lying now.
Doesn't pass the smell test.
'I'm leaving tonight to head down to Florida for a few much needed "mental health days"...
I don't know why I procrastinate telling you these things.. Communication...One more of my crazy a** flaws...I've been dreading telling you for fear you'll be mad, or I'll be "in trouble". I told you I feel like you're my dad sometimes.
Feeling so messed up today- found out W did not go with her mom to FL, but instead with OM.
W and I text last night after I found out (she wouldn't answer my calls). Long story short, she claims that there are 15 of them there and she is not 'with OM'. She went to clear her mind and think about things. She's been going to church, praying for an answer, reading things...I have no idea why she was there, what she's been doing, it's not what I think it is, but she's tired of having this same conversation.
Starsky
Feeling a bit frustrated at a lack of progress, but I know I'm just being impatient.
W had mentioned staying the night on 2 separate occasions this week, but didn't either night. And we've yet to do anything just the two of us yet, although we've had a few good phone conversations. Just work related or about things W would like to redo at the house. Which is funny considering she's not staying here. She's planning on coming over tomorrow to do some things around the house, then we're taking the kids hiking on Monday.
I haven't pushed the no contact letter because I'm not sure if I should or if I should address it in MC, but I have a feeling she's still in contact.
Still trying to GAL- have a few things planned for Sunday. Kept it vague when W asked about my plans. Watching the 'Yes Man' right now- seems to be a pretty strong GAL movie!
Tar,
We've been through 2 to 3 threads on the NC letter and no OM contact.
What's stopping you from pulling that trigger?
Because.....
I am ___________________
She agreed to it and mentioned the other night that she'd start it (I know, should take all of 5 mins to write), but I think Starsky had recommended I wait for MC (post got deleted).
Why would my post be deleted???
I noticed a couple posts from my thread were deleted when the forums went down...
W just dropped the kids off and stuck around to chat about tomorrow- she's coming over to work on the house. Talked about all kinds of plans - redoing bathrooms, painting, planting new bushes, etc.
Thinking of shooting her a text asking her to send me the letter so I can send it tomorrow
Tar,
No. You do not send the letter. It is your W's responsibility to send it to the OM after you've read it and approved it.
You and W must extricate yourselves from the OM completely after the NC letter has been sent out. And be on the high alert for OM's attempts to suck W back with his begging, pleading, or covert attempts to contact/communicate with W in any way.
-Do not agree to meet with OM anywhere (either W alone or together)
-Do not respond to OM
-Do not acknowledge any of OM's texts, emails, phone calls or smoke signals
I'll start with the *bad* then go to the *good*..
Sent W an email late Fri night saying I was frustrated with her lack of urgency in drafting a no contact letter. Asked for her thoughts on when it would be complete as well as when she would be prepared to share passwords, etc. No response, other than texting me on Sat saying she was tired from work and was going to her girlfriend's sisters for a cookout. Originally she had talked of coming over to the house.
Sunday she came over and spent all day cleaning house, scrubbing floors, making a list of all the things we need to do around the house (interesting considering she doesn't live there right now). Anyways, at one point I brought up the email and we had a chat- basically she feels that I'm being controlling with all of my 'demands'. Told her I could see her point as one major complaint she had about our M was that I came across as her 'father' and here I am saying 'do this, share this, etc.' Slippery slope, so I may wait for MC to discuss further. She admitted that she still goes back and forth on trying to work things out, mainly because she's finally feeling good about herself and fears I'm going to ask A details. Once I find out everything, I'll shame her and bail and she'll be left feeling terrible again. I can see her point. She thinks I'm going to be so focused on that, that I wont address any of our previous M issues.
Conversation ended on a positive note- I won't use the word 'cuddle', but she laid in my arms for a few mins, admitted she missed my friendship and we talked about going on a date this week.
W spent the night (in D10's room) and we went to the zoo yesterday as a family. Plenty of positive interaction and good times. She went to leave last night and we talked about the week's plans. She's planning on coming over Wed night for dinner and may stay the night. She also mentioned her and I going out on a date one night this week.
My goal- in about 3 weeks, I have a friend's wedding near our favorite vacation spot. My hope is that W and I will be in a good enough place that we can go together, make it a long weekend and just enjoy each other's company for a few days. I've mentioned it a couple times to W and she seems interested, but I haven't outright asked her. Will probably be a last minute decision based on how things are going.
Funny side story- was at a friend's get together on Sun talking to a girl I had just met when she asked if I was single or had a girlfriend (for a different reason than you think). When I told her actually I was married, I noticed she immediately glanced at my ring finger. She probably thought I was the guy who takes his ring off to go to a party and hit on girls!
Tar,
I think her stalling at sending the no-contact letter is a problem. When is your MC appt?
My wife did the EXACT same thing, and I never wavered on it. If you back down on this, she's going to see that your "dealbreakers" and core boundaries are really more "geeIwishyouwouldn't's."
Starsky
I think her stalling at sending the no-contact letter is a problem. When is your MC appt?
A week from today. I waffle on it because I do want to stand my ground, but I also see how it comes across as controlling. And if she's not 'there' yet, I fear it may push her away further. But I also wonder if she's lumping the no contact letter and sharing of phone, passwords, etc into 1 package deal. She even mentioned this weekend that she knows I would just look back into past emails looking for something to harass her about. I'd be constantly digging for something.
Do I offer to postpone the sharing until we discuss in MC, but insist on the no contact letter now? Or just wait for next week for all of it?
Let me put it another way:
Either this letter really WAS something you needed in order to feel safe in the marriage again . . . truly a core boundary/"dealbreaker" for you . . . or it wasn't.
If it WASN'T, then the very fact that you demanded that she send one WOULD be "controlling" and just more of the same, would it not?
And if it WAS, you wouldn't waver on it.
It's all in the TONE of how you say it (and I wouldn't recommend email for this reason). If you lovingly say "Look, if I were you I wouldn't want to send it either, but I'm afraid it's a dealbreaker for me. I really do need this in order to feel safe in the marriage again." (or something very similar)
There are really two different (but both very important) issues here: one is your wife conveying in no uncertain terms to her OM that their affair is OVER, that she is working on her marriage with Tarheel, and he is not to contact her -- ever again.
The other is some willingness from her to give you what you need here. Particularly if the words "I'm sorry" are not going to be coming from her lips anytime soon, ACTIONS such as these are all the more important. It's a sign that she "gets it," and is willing to "do whatever it takes" to work on the marriage again with you.
Make sense?
Starsky
I think her stalling at sending the no-contact letter is a problem. When is your MC appt?
A week from today. I waffle on it because I do want to stand my ground, but I also see how it comes across as controlling. And if she's not 'there' yet,
I fear it may push her away further. Like I said in my two previous posts, this really IS a dealbreaker for you . . . or it isn't. But you need to DITCH THE FEAR. If you were afraid that insisting your kids not keep drugs in the house would push them away from you, would you simply acquiesce? Or is it a core boundary?
If it's only a week, I would save it for MC,
provided you know ahead of time what the MC's position is going to be on it. In fact I'd strongly recommend you have a conversation ahead of time to make sure he/she has your back on this.
Starsky
Tar,
-Waffling is not being a leader.
-Being afraid is not being a leader.
-Giving W too many chances makes you look weak.
She's got you under her lil' thumb. I find it very interesting that she's throwing the "being controlling" card at you knowing that you'd back off and go back to your cowering self. Attractive? Not so much.
This is a very standard operative line that the WAS throw at us when we set a boundary on no-OM/OW. They throw out "you're being too controlling."
It is not at all that different from a 2-year old stomping his feet and telling you "I hate you!" when told not to do certain thing(s).
There is a part of me that is niggling at me with some concern that W is still in touch with the OM in some fashion.
Do I offer to postpone the sharing until we discuss in MC, but insist on the no contact letter now? Or just wait for next week for all of it?
Postpone both the sharing and the no contact letter until the MC... According to your discussion with her when she agreed to the MC and no contact letter, I don't see where it states that you agreed to a day or time for her to write one.
You gave her an out by not agreeing to an actual deadline.
Not only that, but you BOTH agreed to wait on difficult topics until MC. (backed yourself into another corner) So I would say that you should wait until MC.
Here is the conversation you said you had a couple of weeks ago regarding these issues. I don't see where there was a day or time deadline for the no contact letter. You can't hold her to something that wasn't agreed upon. (mistake on YOUR part for that)
It looks like she agreed to no contact, but not WHEN... Right away? Tomorrow? After MC? Next month?.....
Get it? You gave her an out because a deadline wasn't agreed upon, plus you also BOTH agreed to wait to discuss difficult topics until MC. Now she can use your asking about the no contact letter as controlling. Pressuring people doesn't work. You are pressuring her. Most people fight AGAINST pressure.
Good timing- W just left. We agreed to try to work on things. Conversation had its ups and downs. We'd start going into difficult topics, but then would agree that we should probably wait until MC.
So W asked me to find a MC and set that up. She also agreed no OM contact. I told her that involved writing a letter for me to approve and send as well as both of us sharing emails, passwords, etc. She was fully on board, which really surprised me. W left and we hugged goodbye. Family bday party tomorrow and we talked about trying to go out on some dates upcoming.
She even mentioned this weekend that she knows I would just look back into past emails looking for something to harass her about. I'd be constantly digging for something.
Could you say something like 'I'm not interested in your past emails etc, I just need reassurance for the future'?
Best take advice from Wonka & Starsky about this first though.
There is a part of me that is niggling at me with some concern that W is still in touch with the OM in some fashion.
I agree that there is probably still some contact between the two, however I have a *feeling* that it's now only occasional. Call me naive, but some of W's actions from when I knew they were in frequent contact have changed recently.
Regardless, we're 6 days away from MC- so I either wait and let MC assist me with it, or force it now and risk W bailing from MC.
She even mentioned this weekend that she knows I would just look back into past emails looking for something to harass her about. I'd be constantly digging for something.
Could you say something like 'I'm not interested in your past emails etc, I just need reassurance for the future'?
Excellent!
Could you say something like 'I'm not interested in your past emails etc, I just need reassurance for the future'?
I tried telling her that- even that she could delete any old emails before sharing access with me, but she's convinced I would search and search. 'Even if delete it, you'd find a way to dig it up.'
That's why I pretty much dropped the subject and plan on waiting til MC. There's nothing I can say that will get her to trust me right now (ironic, huh?). This conversation is one reason I posted my 'Recovering from A' post in the Infidelity forum- up until this point I've given her every indication that I would 'need' details. I think she obviously would be more comfortable if I didn't. Would also be a 180 for me...
I'd be careful not to over-promise her, Tar. Even if you decide NOW that you never need to know the answer to something, what if you change your mind later?
Bottom line, SHE needs to be reassuring YOU at this point -- IF she is serious about wanting to reconcile.
I'd be careful not to over-promise her, Tar. Even if you decide NOW that you never need to know the answer to something, what if you change your mind later?
Exactly- I haven't said anything to her on my reconsideration on needing to hear details and don't know that I ever would, should I decide that.
W stopped over last night for dinner, then ran S11 to a doc appt while I ran to the grocery. When she left for the night, we planned a date for either tomorrow night or Sat (depending on her work schedule).
While at the grocery, I look down a long aisle and see OM and his son! That's the first time I've ever seen him in person. He headed down a different aisle and didn't see me. A few secs later we almost crossed paths again, but he didn't see me that time either. I seriously don't know how I would have reacted should we have made eye contact or passed each other. I rushed through the grocery on high alert because I had so many emotions running through me.
Tonight I'm heading over to 2 of W's friend's house to chat about the email I sent a while back (questioning our friendship after hearing they were out with W and OM). I had text them a few weeks ago asking if we could get together and just hear each other out. I expect it to be an 'agree to disagree' conversation. I have no intent on blaming or arguing- this is more to just hear each other out so we can put it behind us and move forward regardless of what happens with W and I. Although I felt the talk was necessary, it's especially important should W and I continue to work towards a possible R.
I would also suggest if the MC does not agree with NC with the OP you should find a new MC.
Tonight I'm heading over to 2 of W's friend's house to chat about the email I sent a while back (questioning our friendship after hearing they were out with W and OM). I had text them a few weeks ago asking if we could get together and just hear each other out. I expect it to be an 'agree to disagree' conversation. I have no intent on blaming or arguing- this is more to just hear each other out so we can put it behind us and move forward regardless of what happens with W and I. .. .
A friend or family member will often try to play the "I'm not taking sides here" thing to artfully get out of you trying to pin them down. What I've seen be effective is to say something like "I'm not asking you to support either
me or
(wife's first name); what I'm hoping you would do is support
the marriage."
Talk with W's friends went well. They don't agree with how W has handled things, but said our talk tonight was more than they've got from W in the past 11 mos. Backs up W's claim that she doesn't share much with them. That's just her personality- to keep things bottled up, where as I've had IC, this forum, friends, etc.
Overall, all 3 of us were glad we ironed things out. They were impressed as to what all I've done for the kids during the S and how I've basically been a single dad. Meant a lot coming from them.
They did not know about us agreeing to MC, so it pretty much confirms W is not 'all in' as I suspected.
Date with W tomorrow! We had originally talked about going out tonight, but W has a long day of work then is taking the kids for the night. I text asking if she'd rather go tomorrow since she was going to have a long day (was hoping she would since we'd have more time). She replied yes, and asked if I wanted her to plan/pick dinner (to which I said yes). Encouraging that she voluntarily took an active role in planning the date and not just going through the motions.
Great new Tarhell, I hope it goes well!!
Tar,
That's a positive. Remember to keep expectations at zero level.
We don't want to see you get disappointed and hurt.
Hope it goes well tomorrow!
Hey Tarheel -
I am following along with your stitch. It seems we have very similar situations. Except I have a WAH. My H & I are working on piecing. I guess. He has said he wants to work on the marriage and the issues before he told me things were over. He has said & done a lot of similar things as your wife. Balks at transparency - because that means I'm controlling. He still can't believe I went thru his phone & the invasion of his "privacy". And the PA which my H won't answer questions about right now. I originally thought would be a deal breaker, I'm trying to leave it alone until we meet with MC.
I don't have much to add but I think you are getting some really great help here.
Hope your date goes good tonight. Good Luck!
Thanks Sam (and others)!
Overall date went pretty well, although a little shorter than I was hoping for. I had been hoping we'd find something to do, then go to dinner, them maybe a bar to watch football, but we ended up just doing dinner.
W called me on the way to the house and had 2 different restaurant ideas. Normally I'd say it didn't matter and she could pick, but instead chose 1 then mentioned finding a bar afterwards. W revealed that she actually had pre existing plans to meet up with her new work group.
Dinner was good- lots of talking and laughing. I made sure to maintain eye contact and ask lots of questions, even though football was on in the background. It was actually pretty natural though to keep the conversation going.
On the way home I asked if she cared if I went with her to meet up with her friends (I know a few of them), but she said she'd rather not have to explain and was probably just going home anyways (she did).
She helped put the kids to bed, then initiated a hug and thanked me for dinner. I asked if she wanted to do it again and she mentioned maybe the other restaurant tomorrow or this week. I offered to sleep on the couch if she wanted to stay over, but she said she didn't know what the rules were right now and is hoping MC will help with that.
As she left, I asked if she wanted to go to church with me tomorrow and she said she'd try to make it. She's also going to join us for a kids event tomorrow.
You're getting played. Sorry to say.
How sad you can't see it.
Easaaaasy there, big fella. I counted no less than FIVE places there where you were in total PURSUIT mode. Can you spot them?
Starsky
^^^^^^^^
Yes. Slow your roll! I have not been in your sitch, however I saw a lot of pressure and pursuit in that post.
Yeah, I see it now too.
I definitely struggle with how to treat W right now. Wanting to show my changes and continue the positive interactions, but not scare her off.
Point taken. Will try to be more patient. Looking forward to MC in 2 days. Hopefully that will be a first step in defining an action plan going forward.
Laughing today at the difference in communication compared to mos ago. W has text me several times this morning unnecessarily. Asking about when something is due (she has the form with her), then asking what time our MC appt is (it's on our shared calendar). Even simple 'ok' responses when I provide answers. Maybe I'm just on her mind today?!
Far from piecing, but it's definitely a night and day difference.
Nervous, but anxious for first MC session tomorrow night. I struggle getting through everything I want to say with my IC, let alone sharing time with someone else!
Train/Starsky/Wonka/anyone else- I'd love to hear advice on how to treat W right now. Feels like it's somewhere in between a friendly neighbor and a girlfriend?? Or am I still in friendly neighbor mode?
Still in friendly neighbor mode, until she agrees to be fully transparent with you (hopefully) at the MC session tomorrow.
^^^ Second to Starsky....
Down boy, Tar. I know you'r feeling really good...but gotta keep your guard up at all times UNTIL everything is on the table. Not too sure yet as I am wary of W's shell game.
Count a "third" in for me.
Not only do you ONLY act like a neighbor, you also CONTINUE to act strong, confident, decisive, convicted, assured.
I soooo wish, as a woman, I could spend one day in the brain of a man. And that y'all could spend a day in the brain of a woman.
If you were to spend a day in the brain of a woman who is attracted to men, you'd see we are attracted to men who are (first and FOREMOST) confident, competent and strong. That is very possibly the VERY FIRST thing we see. (I could go on a tangent here about the psychology of many women's "bad boy complex," but I'll spare you. I WILL say I think it has something to do with women finding a strong, confident man practically irresistible. But I digress ...)
Now that you seem to have somewhat re-attracted W to your M, it's time to focus HARD on re-attracting her to the man she fell in love with.
Remember: even if you pursued her when y'all were dating, she was already smitten. Your role NOW is different: it's starting from scratch. In other words, you have to help influence her to be SMITTEN.
Is that making sense?
Be cool. Be strong. Be confident. Be irresistible.
No more pursuing!
Can't wait to hear about MC!
Just got back from first MC session. Not too much accomplished since 1/3 of the time is dedicated to insurance/forms/program overview. MC will meet with each of us individually next week, then back together, then 4 weeks of solution based therapy should we decide to proceed.
Just talked about the basics- our history, current status, how we got to where we are now. We both seemed pretty honest about things and i felt like we both understood where the other was coming from. W said this was basically a last ditch attempt and that she feels a lot of 'mommy guilt.' OM was brought up (by W) as a current hurdle and the seriousness of their relationship, but I didn't want that to be the main focus, so no contact letter was not addressed. I did say that I didn't feel they could be friends if we were trying to R.
W did start to cry a couple times. She expressed anger at me for moving back to the house, so I briefly explained my reasoning behind it (wasn't my idea to separate, wanted to be with the kids). We agreed that our approach right now was trying to build our friendship since we had gone on so long without much positive communication. MC indicated we had some positives working in our favor, especially giving this a shot after being S for a year.
As we left (drove separate) we talked about this week's plans. W mentioned coming over Thursday for dinner and possibly staying over. Not sure if I feel worse or better about things. On one hand it was painful to hear W say she was not attracted to me right now and had gotten used to being S, but on the other hand she showed emotion, is sharing her feelings and seems to be giving an honest attempt. Suppose that's how MC starts, huh? Patience continues...
it was painful to hear W say she was not attracted to me right now and had gotten used to being S ...
^^^. This makes me feel even more confident in what I just wrote up there.
Tar, you have it in you. Pay attention to your backbone now. No wet noodles.
Tar,
No less than five or six times you put off painful -- and necessary -- boundaries with your wife, deferring them to your upcoming MC session. Now that none of that was addressed . . . what is your plan?
Starsky
Tar,
No less than five or six times you put off painful -- and necessary -- boundaries with your wife, deferring them to your upcoming MC session. Now that none of that was addressed . . . what is your plan?
Starsky
Yes, I was thinking about that last night as I lay in bed. I'm going to have to re-address the no contact letter and full transparency. I don't feel that she can 100% commit to R while still in contact (however limited it may be) with OM. MC did seem to agree with my side on that, but didn't go into specifics to put in place.
I can't go another 2 weeks until we meet with MC together again to address.
One thing I didn't mention from MC that's been on my mind quite a bit is that W said she first started questioning our M 8 years ago. 8!! Hindsight is 20/20, but I can't help think how things could have been so different had I had the tools and resources I've had this past year back then.
8 years of unhappiness and resentment built up and I expected changes in W overnight or after one conversation....Just goes to show how much patience and time is needed to turn some situations around.
*If* that's true, then yeah.
Hi Tarheel,
This is just my opinion, but I would question the timeline. I think when you end up in this situation, it's natural to go back to the first time you had serious questions about the marriage, but it doesn't necessarily mean those questions have been ongoing or consistent.
For example, I remeber going through a bit of a rough time shortly after the birth of D6, where I was really hurt by some things that H said and they bothered me for months. Now 6 years later, if I was the one going through a MLC, I would probably say that the problems started 6 years ago - even though there have been many, many good times inbetween.
We had plenty of great times within the past 8 years and I'm sure W went back and forth plenty of times as far as how she felt, so by no means do I think she's been unhappy for the past 8 yrs straight. Just frustrating that I/we had all that time where changes could have occurred within our M.
She also mentioned remembering our trip to Ireland years ago and how she should have been so happy to go, but wasn't. Sure I wasn't the greatest company to be with at the time as I had a ruptured appendix the week before and wasn't my normal active self.
I know I'm going to get a big 2x4 for this pursuing move, but I emailed W this morning asking if she wanted to join me for an out of state wedding next weekend. I've mentioned it to her before, but hadn't actually asked her. She knows the wedding group and I'm going regardless, but think it would be a great opportunity to hang out and reconnect at our favorite vacation spot. She hasn't replied yet- I told her to take a few days and think it over. I'm not counting on her going, but it would say a lot about her effort in R should she decide to.
Easaaaasy there, big fella. I counted no less than FIVE places there where you were in total PURSUIT mode. Can you spot them?
Make that six . . .
But there has to be some pursuing, right? I agree that the other night was excessive- I didn't realize that until it was all written down in front of me. But someone has to lead this train and I think it's clear it's not going to be W. MC even agreed that MC couldn't be the only actions we were taking towards R.
W has known about the wedding for a while now and I had mentioned it to her a few times in passing and she expressed some interest. I didn't want to invite her too early though, afraid that it was pursuing too soon. And maybe this is too soon, but logistically (taking time off work, sitter for the kids) I was running out of time.
With all that said, I do see your point and will be scaling back my pursuit in general. Just wanted to explain my point of view.
Tarheel,
I'm no expert and you get great advice from Starsky, Wonka, and Train. Something leapt out to me about your post. I hope I'm wrong , however something about your W doesn't feel *all in* yet. I mean as to working on things. I don't say that to be hurtful-just my observation. You can't be do afraid of losing he that you don't set some reasonable boundaries and I disagree in that you have to pursue at this point. I don't see how that is going to benefit anyone at this juncture. Chasing someone who appears to be unsure they want to try won't yield good results. Your wife knows you want to be with her so barraging her with invites that might be more appropriate down the road could seem desperate on your behalf. I don't want to sound harsh. Friendly neighbor approach is still best.
I'm with Train about the being swapping minds with the opposite gender. That would be oh so enlightening.
Thanks Georgiabelle. I agree that she is not 'all in' right now. Mindreading, but I get the feeling this is more of a 'let's try MC, family time, increased communication to see if my feelings come back' as opposed to 'I want my feelings to come back, so let's MC, date, etc'.
Maybe that's why I struggle with balancing pursuit vs continuing to treat her like a friendly neighbor. I'm not trying to question vets advice, but if I don't pursue a little and give her opportunities to see the new Tarheel, will she want to continue towards R? Take our date the other night for example- I made sure to look her in the eyes, validate, ask questions...I could feel that it was helping her open up and feel more comfortable in sharing with me. Almost a year into S and I think W has initiated 1 on 1 time less than 5 times. Maybe that's telling me something...
But like I said, it's clear now that I've been over pursuing this past week, so need to step back.
Tarheel, I'm a simple man, so I'll put it simply.
If it were me, continued contact with OM would be a dealbreaker. It was in my sitch, and you have said it is likewise with you.
If it were me, I would (and did, in my sitch) insist upon a no-contact letter being sent and full transparency from my wife in order to verify no-contact and to rebuild trust as we pieced. You have said likewise with you, and in fact communicated to your wife that you NEEDED that.
She's done nothing in that regard.
You put it all off until your MC appt., and then never addressed it.
Now you're asking us why you shouldn't pursue your wife.
Can you see why I say no? If you were your wife, what message would you receive from all of the above?
Starsky, because my W feels that sharing access to her email, phone, etc is coming across as controlling, is it a fair compromise to request she send the letter, delete all electronic friendships/connections and dispose of all letters, gifts, etc in exchange for waiting until our next MC session (probably 2 weeks) to discuss full transparency?
I know that she should be willing to be fully transparent right now and that I should refuse to accept anything less, but the truth is she's not 'all in' right now. The controlling aspect has been a big hangup of hers, even prior to our S. Does this insure all OM contact has ended- of course not. But it does show her that I'm willing to compromise and work with her while letting MC dictate what should happen in regards to transparency.
You have it precisely BACKWARDS, Tar. Until she IS transparent, she's very likely not going to maintain no-contact.
And until she maintains no-contact, she's not going to have her feelings for you return.
And she's using her feelings for you as her benchmark as to whether or not she wants to be "all in".
Look, you're looking for a way out of this, because you're FEARFUL. I GET IT -- I was too! But until you're MORE concerned about doing what it takes to separate the addict from the source of her addiction, and LESS concerned about your wife throwing the (common, 100% SCRIPT) "controlling!" accusation at you . . .
. . . you're going to get nowhere.
You need to just rip this Band-Aid off, and when your wife gives you the whole "YOU'RE SO CONTROLLING!" thing, push back with "I understand you feel that way. I would find it uncomfortable too. But I told you I needed this, you AGREED to do it, and I'm afraid this is a dealbreaker for me."
IF, of course, it really is a dealbreaker. Only YOU can decide that.
Starsky
DBing is like parenting: no one goes to their deathbed saying "I wish I would have been more lenient with my kids."
Nearly EVERYONE who comes back here who's been unsuccessful says something along the lines of "I wish I would've insisted upon 'X' much sooner," or "I wish I could have laid out strong boundaries at the outset," etc.
You CAN'T let your "what's working" barometer be "Does it make her mad?" It's gotta be "WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO IN EVERY SITUATION? WHAT IS THE THING THAT GOD HIMSELF WOULD HAVE ME DO, IF HE WERE STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME?" . . . and let the blowback chips fall where they may.
Until then, you're being reactionary and just spinning your wheels based on pure emotion.
C'mon Tar. You know Starsky's right on this. You can compromise after she's all in and agreed to NC and transparency.
To compromise before that just says your boundary isn't a boundary, and she'll use that to whatever advantage she wants, and you'll be wondering where you stand.
You have it precisely BACKWARDS, Tar. Until she IS transparent, she's very likely not going to maintain no-contact.
And until she maintains no-contact, she's not going to have her feelings for you return.
And she's using her feelings for you as her benchmark as to whether or not she wants to be "all in".
Look, you're looking for a way out of this, because you're FEARFUL. I GET IT -- I was too! But until you're MORE concerned about doing what it takes to separate the addict from the source of her addiction, and LESS concerned about your wife throwing the (common, 100% SCRIPT) "controlling!" accusation at you . . .
. . . you're going to get nowhere.
You need to just rip this Band-Aid off, and when your wife gives you the whole "YOU'RE SO CONTROLLING!" thing, push back with "I understand you feel that way. I would find it uncomfortable too. But I told you I needed this, you AGREED to do it, and I'm afraid this is a dealbreaker for me."
IF, of course, it really is a dealbreaker. Only YOU can decide that.
Starsky
Tar - you and I are in somewhat similar situations and Starsky's post above is a perfect summary of where my wife is and likely where yours is as well. The difference is that (as opposed to a week ago) my wife is no longer willing to maintain NC, let alone transparency. I told her it was a dealbreaker and I am working towards finalizing our D next week. I have been lenient enough. Don't make the same mistake.
I would even make an additional point about this:
No-contact (accompanied by a solid, mutually-agreed upon transparency plan) covers TWO things:
1) It protects the betrayed spouse against the spouse who is unwilling and/or deceitful; and
2) It protects the betrayed spouse (and helps the wayward spouse) when the wayward spouse is WILLING, but UNABLE (weak, too nice to end it with OP, etc., etc.).
Again, just think of the alcoholic, or the person with the gambling addiction for your analogy. Yeah, some of them are just morally bad people who have zero intention of stopping what they are doing, but there are also plenty who truly WANT to stop . . . but can't.
I see so many betrayed spouses on these forums say something along the lines of "I believe her," or "He's sincere -- I can tell, I KNOW him . . . " etc. Well, just because they WANNA, doesn't mean they CAN.
It's not a guarantee -- nothing is. But a unequivocal no-contact letter sent, accompanied by a STRONG transparency plan, plus MCing with a MC specifically trained to deal with infidelity . . .equals your BEST chance of success!
Starsky
You aren't just pursuing. You are PUSHING!!!! Do you know how I treated guys with similar behavior....(when I was single, of course)? Very badly! B/c they turned me off so much I couldn't stomach them. It was the cool guy who wasn't constantly panting after me and sniffing my skirt tail. The guy I had to get his attention and flirt with to get
him interested in
me. The guy who would stand back and just grin at me....and I wouldn't know for sure if he was interested or amused. I was the one who was interested. It was "that" guy who kept me watching him. He was cool! He didn't pursue and push, b/c he didn't have to beg and convince a girl to go out with him. And that what you are doing with your W.
It wasn't enough that you went to dinner on the date, you kept pushing for more! You pushed her right out the door, instead of leaving her wanting more of you. Why do persist in acting so desperate?
Maybe that's why I struggle with balancing pursuit vs continuing to treat her like a friendly neighbor.
Really? How many neighbors do you pursue? It should not be any balancing act at all. Just don't do it. Now, that was simple, wasn't it?
. (Seriously I know what you mean, but I had this funny image in my mind of you chasing your neighbor around the block.)
I'm not trying to question vets advice, but if I don't pursue a little and give her opportunities to see the new Tarheel, will she want to continue towards R?
Yeah, you are questioning. You have wanted to pursue since day one, and the fear is causing you to question it.
I hear LBH'S ask the same question about "how will she see the new me if I don't give her opportunities?" Well I call that LBH script! It is hogwash! In the first place, I wonder if those changes have really stuck and if they aren't more like future intentions of what you will do if you get her back. It's when the LBH is "changing" just for her that causes him to want to "show" her how much he has improved. It's just another attempt at convincing her to reconcile. Know what happens if they do reconcile? Those "changes" of his fall by the wayside. It wasn't really for him. He was just doing them to get her back. Once she's back....it's over.
Listen, if you have to do that much to convince her to reconcile......she's not ready, and you
will go through all this heartache again.
I know that she should be willing to be fully transparent right now and that I should refuse to accept anything less, but the truth is she's not 'all in' right now. The controlling aspect has been a big hangup of hers, even prior to our S
That is pure BS!! She is unwilling b/c she has something to hide......not b/c you are controlling! Change that song already, it's old.
Want a truth dart? You show your controlling nature through the way you push.....push....PUSH!
That is controlling. Not the transparency issue.
She controls
that....by her own actions. Sure, you can view certain things, but she is the one really in control. Since she is not willing to even pretend to be transparent .........it pretty much tells the ending of the story, doesn't it?
Does this insure all OM contact has ended- of course not. But it does show her that I'm willing to compromise and work with her while letting MC dictate what should happen in regards to transparency.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Transparency does not insure all contact has stopped, that's why I said she is the one in control. What are you talking about compromising? The only way I see you compromising everything you believe in.....is to romance her, wooing her back, chasing & pursuing while she is still in an A.
The WAW in an A is not attracted to a LBH who will accept her back home
knowing she is bringing her OM with her. It is one thing when a woman has deceived you.........but when you have your eyes wide open and choose to compromise with her deceit.......then what? She was the one who did wrong, and yet you go chasing after her to plead for another chance. Women see that as weakness and simply are not attracted to it.
It is not standing or fighting for your marriage. It is compromising with her desire for OM.
Tar,
Let me paint a clear picture of what's happening in your sitch.
You are Pepe Le Pew
Your W is Penelope Pussy (the cat trying to get away from him)
Need I say more here??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I want to make a comment about WAW throwing back this line to the LBH who makes a plan to put in place a boundary on no OM, "that's controlling!".
That is classic line of turning the tables against the LBS so he'll back off which will allow her to continue with the OM or even take the A further underground.
I've seen you burn your shoes on the ground full stop every time W throws that line at you, Tar. Why's that? Because you are too afraid of the blow back from W.
So what! Let W blow her gasket....until she's blue in the face. Because you're not moved at all by her histrionics and stand strong & firm like The Thing from Fantastic 4.
I'm in a similar stitch but I know the more i've pulled back the more my W has stepped forward. With that being said, last night W again said she can't do this to S. i listened, validated but told her as long as she continues contact with OM their can not be a R but we are moving forward. W is in control of the direction based our her decisions which I can not control. If she wants to be with me their can not be any contact with OM. But continued contact is a deal breaker for me. That is not control, that is me doing what is best for son and me. As I said to my W you can do what you want and I want you to be happy, however I'm not willing to be in an open M. The choice is theirs, we are not controlling. We are only responding or acting based on their continued behavior. Don't believe a word of it.
Trust the advice your getting and I know it seems bassackwards. But it works and the longer you let this play out the weaker your position becomes. I'm still hopeful my M will turn around but I need to have some love, respect and honor for myself whether she comes back to R or not.
Let her go and find yourself. I've gotten to the point that I don't want the women she has become. Will the women I M ever be back? I don't know and neither can you. Do what you know you need to do - you are worth it.
FEAR is False Evidence Appearing Real
I truly do wish only the best for all the people here fighting for what's right and standing for their M, holding strong to their vows. When we allow the WAW w/ OM to control us and continue to cake eat we are only prolonging the bitter end. They will never get better as long as they know they can do both. Dig deep and do what you know you need to before it's to late.
If I'm wrong I hope the vets smack me around until I get it right because I've got a great memory but it's short.
Keep up the great work and let's take this to the next level together!
W just left the house. I told her that 3 weeks ago that she had agreed to a no contact letter and full transparency. She asked why I hadn't brought that up at MC because she thinks some rules/boundaries need set. Not sure what she means by that, but I told her I wasn't interested in any past communication, I just needed to insure it wasn't occurring going forward if we have any shot of R.
She agreed to write a letter or email and give it to me tomorrow. She still feels like I'm bullying her into it, even though she said she told OM we were going to work on things and rarely talks to him anymore. She also asked for what the letter needed to include.
I also told her that I needed passwords (and would share mine), her to defriend OM on all social media, and for all gifts/cards/etc to be thrown away.
I know this was the right thing to do, but it still felt more like pressuring/pestering than asking W to a wedding. Why do I feel 'needy' rather than strong?
I'm in a similar stitch but I know the more i've pulled back the more my W has stepped forward. With that being said, last night W again said she can't do this to S. i listened, validated but told her as long as she continues contact with OM their can not be a R but we are moving forward. W is in control of the direction based our her decisions which I can not control. If she wants to be with me their can not be any contact with OM. But continued contact is a deal breaker for me. That is not control, that is me doing what is best for son and me. As I said to my W you can do what you want and I want you to be happy, however I'm not willing to be in an open M. The choice is theirs, we are not controlling. We are only responding or acting based on their continued behavior. Don't believe a word of it.
And THAT, folks, is the difference between "controlling/ultimatums" and "strong loving boundaries." It's the difference between making it about THEM, and making it about YOU. It's "you can do whatever you want, but only outside of my circle. If you want to be in MY circle, this is what I allow inside of it. You decide."
Exceptional post, Cnfused!
Starsky
Why do I feel 'needy' rather than strong?
Because much of DBing is counter-intuitive, and because taking such a strong stand goes against your "pleaser" nature, Tar. It did for me too (I come from a long line of co-dependent pleaser/rescuers!)
Ya done good . . . proud of you!
Now
LET IT LIE, and see how your wife responds.
Starsky
I believe you made the mistake of agreeing to MC while at the same time "insisting" on a NC letter and a host of other requirements.
On the one hand you are trying to come across as "strong" by insisting on NC and you won't share, while on the other hand, agreeing to MC.
Those two things would need to go hand in hand to really show her that you mean business. It would have been far better to tell her no counseling, no nothing UNTIL you have written the NC letter and such....
Then AFTER that is complete, you go to counseling....
Agreeing to and attending counseling is the same thing as saying you WILL share her.
This is what this whole thing is sounding like to me. Imagine how it sounds to her. No wonder you are confused.
" WS, I insist on NC or it's over between us, however, let's go to counseling to see if we can save this marriage while I wait to see if I can force you to write the NC letter and a host of other demands so that I can feel secure. Please don't call this controlling because I know I can't force you to do anything. Do you want to go to that wedding I mentioned a month or so back? What about a date on Saturday, do you want to go to dinner?
Oh, and one other thing, did you write that NC letter today that you promised? What about all of your passwords? Did you throw away all letters from OM and gifts yet? Please don't take this as pressure or me being controlling. If you don't write that NC letter today, then how about tomorrow, or should I wait until the next MC session?"
Good move, Tar.
Fwiw, I'm in full agreement with Starsky here, and sandi's post was amaze-balls. I was silently applauding after each sentence.
Trust us on the strong/confident stuff.
Women like it, even though we might stomp our feet and huff and puff a little at first.
Controlling Schromolling. Every WAS says that dumb crap.
Yesterday came and went and still no no-contact email/letter from W. I know she had a 'busy' day yesterday and has the kids this weekend, but really? It would take like 5 mins to draft the letter and about 5 secs to unfriend him on social media sites. Frustrating...especially since she claims she has no problem writing it and agreed to it.
That's because you have the backbone of a wet noodle, Tar.
So do I just tell her I'm canceling MC because I refuse to work on R while they remain in contact?
Tar,
I wouldn't go that far. I think it is important to keep MC appointments.
What we all have suggested is to state your no-OM boundary and reinforce your stance that you will not live in an open marriage. What this entails are the following action steps:
1) W will need to end all contact with OM immediately
2) W will need to write NC letter and send to OM after you've read the letter and approved it
3) W will give you access to smartphones, laptops, computers at your request ...including her passwords
4) Restate this to W in front of MC so the MC can be supportive of this process
5) No "happy family" activities while W is still involved with OM
If W balks at or refuses to do ^^ all of these action steps, then I would step away from MC with her and continue with IC for your own benefit
This information isn't new at all...we all have said this in previous posts to you.
Understood, and I've communicated all of this to W, who has agreed yet not taken action.
I should have brought it up in our first MC session this week, but didn't want W to think that was my primary focus. Our problems pre S should be our primary focus. So our next joint MC session is in 2 weeks.
Family time has continued and MC seemed to be in favor saying we couldn't only rely on MC for us to R. However I'm going to scale that back and not initiate any further dates/family time until we have a chance to discuss this topic in MC.
I think having two weeks of down-time with little to no contact initiated by you sets you up perfectly for your next MC session, at which point you will look like a million dollars and smell incredible. And (if W has not by then, on her own accord, removed OM from social media and drafted a NC letter) you will sit up straight with a spine of steel and deliver your non-negotiables - with conviction - in front of MC. And MEAN them.
I'd usually advocate not repeating those non-negotiables at all. But I'm going to agree with Wonka about you delivering them in front of MC.
No fear. No BSing. No empty threats.
Don't coddle your W any further. She has no more excuses. And don't let her pull you around by the nose anymore, Tar. You're better than that. And she IS losing respect for you the more you set boundaries and then let her plow over them.
Step 1 is NC with OM. Your M cannot begin to be healed without W completing that very "simple" first step. MC - and working on pre-A problems - is absolutely pointless if she cannot or does not complete this task.
Haven't spoken with W in a few days- just feeling bitter about everything right now. Tonight is S12's bday dinner, so we'll see each other then, but she just sent the following email. Any advice on a response??
'Are you still going to the wedding this weekend? I can't get the time off work. Already getting crap for taking off Thanksgiving and am being told it will be unpaid. I also have concerns about us being alone together for 4 days.
You haven't spoken to me since Thursday. I understand. I haven't done what you asked of me. I've done a lot of asking myself why. And why I got so angry with you when you pushed..not sure.not sure I am able to give up control of my life that I have built over the past year.'
My immediate reaction is to just say I'll cancel MC if she's not willing to give up the life she's built this past year....
I will admit that I am crap at setting boundaries, but canceling MC due to her hesitation sounds an awful lot like a threat to me.
I see her trying to work through conflicting emotions in her email. If you push, won't she feel justified in NOT giving up the life she's worked to build over the past year?
The no contact letter needs to happen, but I think it should be presented to her more like, "I am ready to work on our marriage, but I cannot do that unless the door to the OM is completely closed." Firm but loving, you know?
My 2 cents -- I've read your thread but I'm not in an A situation so I may not have a clue what I'm talking about . . .
"Yes, I'm still going to the wedding. Sorry you can't make it, it should be a blast!!"
Danggggg, Tar. W's message just spiked my blood pressure a little.
I will be looking forward to Starsky's advice on this.
Meanwhile, I think Elsa has a great point about pulling MC off the table right now. I think it would be too reactive of you. I also like the response Drew pitched; that would be advocating a STFU and KISS stance, pretty much ignoring all the other garbage she threw out there.
She is REALLY stringing you along, isn't she? What arrogance!
I also really found JCred's response from the other day insightful (somehow I missed it then), and it raises a great question:
I believe you made the mistake of agreeing to MC while at the same time "insisting" on a NC letter and a host of other requirements.
On the one hand you are trying to come across as "strong" by insisting on NC and you won't share, while on the other hand, agreeing to MC.
Those two things would need to go hand in hand to really show her that you mean business. It would have been far better to tell her no counseling, no nothing UNTIL you have written the NC letter and such....
Then AFTER that is complete, you go to counseling....
Agreeing to and attending counseling is the same thing as saying you WILL share her.
This is what this whole thing is sounding like to me. Imagine how it sounds to her. No wonder you are confused.
" WS, I insist on NC or it's over between us, however, let's go to counseling to see if we can save this marriage while I wait to see if I can force you to write the NC letter and a host of other demands so that I can feel secure. Please don't call this controlling because I know I can't force you to do anything. Do you want to go to that wedding I mentioned a month or so back? What about a date on Saturday, do you want to go to dinner?
Oh, and one other thing, did you write that NC letter today that you promised? What about all of your passwords? Did you throw away all letters from OM and gifts yet? Please don't take this as pressure or me being controlling. If you don't write that NC letter today, then how about tomorrow, or should I wait until the next MC session?"
How are you telling W that you won't live in an open M or share her ... but also going to MC to work on the M before she has committed to transparency and giving OM the boot off her social-media accounts? At this point, while W is being such a brat, I don't know that MC is going to do you any good; in fact, it could HURT matters.
Still, I wouldn't yank it off the table now because it'd be just too dang reactive and, yes, would provide her with justification.
I'd still go with what was discussed earlier. Deliver your non-negotiables in front of MC. Stick to them. You could even tell W in front of MC that you're not willing to make further appointments until W agrees to transparency and NC. (But as for responding to her most recent message, maybe punt her a response like Drew pitched, ignoring her spew altogether.)
Then again, this is a bit of a tricky situation for me to figure out - boundaries, strength, etc.
and MC when W hasn't committed - so I'm definitely anxious to see the responses from others.
Starsky? Where art thou?
I can see both sides of it. Yes, I made the mistake of not having W send the no contact letter prior to counseling. We both agreed it needed sent and she stated she had no problem with it, so I 'assumed' she was starting to write it. My fault. I really think she's not as concerned with no contact with OM as she is with how does she handle that new circle of friends she's made going forward. She's wondering- do I have to give them up too? She knows I don't like them and why would I? They basically encouraged her A.
I re-read her last line of being 'not sure I'm able to give up that life' and can't help wonder if that's a cry for help in giving it up or her way of saying she's not 'willing' to give it up. And what a sweet life that is- sharing a 2 bedroom condo away from her kids/animals.
Part of me agrees with the above advice to ignore her spew and just address it in MC, but I'm also just fed up with her continued delay in all of this. 3 weeks ago I gave her the choice of working with me or we're done- and I meant it. Yet here we are still discussing her lack of cooperation....
So I have 2 responses drafted- 1 following the above advice and 1 basically saying MC is a waste of time if she's not willing to give up that life, we'll start discussing D after I get back from the wedding (and we're not going to dinner tonight as a family).
... and 1 basically saying MC is a waste of time if she's not willing to give up that life, we'll start discussing D after I get back from the wedding (and we're not going to dinner tonight as a family).
Lots of pressure there. She's made her bed, I'd just let her sleep in it for awhile.
Be strong, confident, happy, and moving on with your life. And look DAMN good at the wedding!!
Tarheel
I can somewhat relate to your sitch, when my W and I went to MC back in may I was under the impression OM was out of the picture ... turns out W only wanted MC so we could communicate better, but had no intentions of R .... I then realized why I was having difficulty connecting and making any progress with her. So in MC I called her on it .... our MC was very good and basically fired a ton of truth darts at W. She blew up and walked out ... as I apologized to my MC she told me, W has to fix her, and out M would never work until she did that , and committed to it .... as she told W ... she has never seen a M work with 3 people.
Reading that line where you W is not sure she is ready .... well as ugly as it is... its her choice, she can live that life (Seems a rather empty and shallow one at best) ... or she can try to work on your M ... you have told her what needs to happen, she has been dragging her feet. I think you need to stay strong, continue LRT ... they have brought you this far, something in your W seems to want the M, but do not allow her the cake eat opportunity. I, like you set a boundary a couple weeks ago and she talked me into a "trial" that is quickly about to expire, I have done all I can, I have changed, and at some point I am enough for her or I'm just not. I am willing, but I refuse to be the only one running into the burning house to save it for someone who cant get away fast enough ..... lets face it, we all are here in a spot we don't want to be in, and its going to take alot of work from both to get to where we need to be.... you can not do it alone.
I also have concerns about us being alone together for 4 days.
You haven't spoken to me since Thursday. I understand. I haven't done what you asked of me. I've done a lot of asking myself why. And why I got so angry with you when you pushed..not sure.not sure I am able to give up control of my life that I have built over the past year.'....
My response would be "Then I guess I have my answer. Because at this late date, no decision IS a decision as far as I'm concerned."
And then I would show up for the MC session, ask her in front of the MC if she is willing to send the no-contact letter and be fully transparent with you and come back and work -- REALLY work -- on the marriage . . . and if she wasn't . . . I'd be polite, thank the MC for their time, and I'd say "Then I guess I have my answer. Thanks -- I'll leave the rest of our time for you two." And I'd leave.
Starsky
The no contact letter needs to happen, but I think it should be presented to her more like, "I am ready to work on our marriage, but I cannot do that unless the door to the OM is completely closed." Firm but loving, you know?
Tarheel has done that. 3x, by my count. His wife has given him her (non-) answer. For Tar to continue to restate his boundary would only serve to WEAKEN it.
I wouldn't much care how anyone would perceive me canceling MC. If she's unwilling to kick the 3rd person out of her marriage that she's unilaterally invited into it, and take the steps necessary to work on the marriage with Tarheel, then the MC sessions are a charade and a waste of time at best, and are going to be used as a platform for her to exit the marriage at worst. Either way, I wouldn't be much interested.
Starsky
I'm fed up with the games. I responded that I had my answer and that it didn't make sense to continue MC with a 3rd person still involved. She responded 'what time for dinner? or am I just taking the kids?'
Really?! She then responded again saying not to make her unwillingness to change all about OM.
I sent her one last email saying she can either send me the letter and unfriend him tonight or I'm cancelling MC. Maybe I should have waited to address at MC, but she's been dragging her feet too long...
Tar,
Since you sent that last email response to W, I'd suggest that you go pitch black dark and not have any family events with W. Make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that you will not live in an open marriage. Period.
From here and on, only have polite exchanges about the logistics regarding the kids.
Aren't you and W still living under the same roof? Just double checking here.
How you holdin' up, Tar?
Give us an update when you can!
Hey Tarheel - checking in to see how you are. Anything new?
Thanks for checking in on me- I decided to take a self imposed break from the boards as I was becoming pretty obsessed with waiting for responses to my thread as well as reading every story on here. I found it was becoming difficult to fully detach when I was constantly on here.
So to pick up from where I left off, W and I exchanged several texts after my email that day, including 1 where she said she was 'done.' We went back in forth in a conversation that would have earned me some major 2x4's, but the end result was that she was unsure if she was going to her MC session. I left it at that and a few days later left for a friend's wedding 8 hrs away.
Had a great time catching up with friends and ended up staying a couple days with my brother and his girlfriend, who live near the wedding site. It was so nice to get my mind off things and just enjoy time away.
W stayed at the house with the kids while I was gone for the first time since March. The MC emailed me that W had cancelled her appt, but then rescheduled (she went earlier this week). Our next session is this upcoming Monday, where we'll read our homework questions to each other (What are the problems? How have each of you contributed? ...etc)
I hadn't talked to W since our text exchange. She had sent me a text the morning I left for the wedding asking if I wanted to take her car and that she'd bring it over, but I didn't respond as I was heading out the door. We text once I got back and I asked if she wanted to do anything for her bday (this Sunday). She responded that she didn't want to do anything as she was feeling overwhelmed and was even thinking of cancelling her plans with her friends. I got the old 'life svcks' text and how much she misses the kids. I'm guessing her MC session combined with 'playing house' while I was gone is probably hitting her hard now that she's back to reality.
After W dropped the kids off last night, she text me asking what we should do for her bday. She wanted to do something with the kids, but wondered if I wanted to do something just the two of us later in the night- so that's the plan for now. With MC scheduled for Mon, I'm not pushing the no-contact letter/transparency deal until then. I made it clear in my MC session that that would be required, so MC knows where I stand and possibly already addressed it in W's session.
Don't you get dizzy going in these circles?
I'm not pushing the no-contact letter/transparency deal until then. I made it clear in my MC session that that would be required, so MC knows where I stand and possibly already addressed it in W's session.
And yet you're taking her out on a date for her birthday.
Tar, your WORDS may tell your wife that youre not ok with this, but your ACTIONS clearly say something very different.
Starsky
Feeling conflicted..
I'll start with yesterday- W's bday. As a family, we went to lunch, then a corn maze. W and I then went to dinner. Overall a positive day- I don't recall any negative interactions during the day. I felt like the roles were reversed as W spent the day asking me plenty of questions- about the wedding, the trip, what I did, etc. At one point she even asked me a few questions about fantasy football. I don't think she would have asked about that even pre S. I couldn't help wonder if that was 'homework' from her MC session.
So MC session today where we spent the hour reading our homework answers to each other. W's weren't as thorough as mine, but for the most part we seemed to agree on what led up to this point, how each of us contributed, what needs to change, etc. MC seemed to be on my 'side' most of the session, especially when I explained my reasoning behind moving back to the house and that it was my decision and W had her own to make. Felt good that MC backed me, but I could see it angered W.
Now we come to my confusion....I had told MC about the no contact letter and full transparency in my one on one session and although she wasn't aware of that approach (and DB in general), she seemed on board. However, tonight when I mentioned that I would need access to email, etc to help rebuild trust, MC was against it. She's definitely pro-marriage and wants us to work, but I was taken back by her recommendation. Basically she said that W giving me all her passwords would cause the opposite effect- more resentment. I explained the difference between privacy and secrecy in a M and that I needed to feel secure that OM contact wasn't ongoing. MC asked W if she'd be willing to close her facebook account (their method of communication), to which she said yes. She then asked me if I'd be willing to go along with W when she hangs out with the OM circle of friends. W said she'd be willing to take me along, but acknowledged it would be awkward at first. MC said it would show solidarity in our M to show up together. I told them that I wanted no part of 'hanging out' with OM.
We had to move on as time was running out, but that really threw me for a loop as it's opposite of the advice I receive here (and other places) and seemed so strange coming from a MC. I know the feedback I'm going to receive as a result of this post, but I want to sit on this 'compromise' for a few days to process. I'm really just shocked at the moment.
I could go on about what else was discussed- me doubting feelings would return when OM is still in the picture, W noticing my increased confidence in myself, MC asking W to commit to the M 1 day at a time, but this post is already long enough. Our next session begins solution based therapy.
On one hand, W and I do seem to be getting along better and she seems open to several things MC recommended or asked of her that display a willingness to work on our M, but on the other hand- is continued OM contact (and interaction) something I'm willing to live with?
Has she admitted that OM is still in the picture?
After a couple days of reflecting, I can't help wonder if MC proposed this option as a result of W's one on one session. A lot of mind reading here, but I know W struggles with separating OM and this new group of friends. Her view- we've been apart for a full year and in that time she's formed new friendships and created a new life for herself. I get that. Me asking her to give up OM contact in her mind is asking to give up this circle of friends, otherwise she would always have to find out if he was going to show up (this much she told me).
I still need to think on this and it definitely needs discussed further in MC, but if I was to decide to go this route, the minimum required would be- some type of communication to OM (and friends) that no one on one contact occurs (email, text, etc) and that it's clear W and I are working on MR, all gifts/texts/emails destroyed, facebook either shut down or he's blocked, she agrees to notify me of any contact... The question is- is this enough to make me feel confident in rebuilding trust in W??
Has anyone seen a case of this being successful when OP is not removed completely? MDU's sitch is the only one I see remotely 'similar', although that's more out of necessity (work).
Sandi- W has told me in MC that they still talk occasionally, but really not that often anymore. That she's told him that her and I are working on things. If facebook remains their primary mode of communication, I believe her as I rarely see her on there anymore. I used to see her on, then off, then on again, which to me meant they were texting. haven't seen that in weeks.
Has anyone seen a case of this being successful when OP is not removed completely? MDU's sitch is the only one I see remotely 'similar', although that's more out of necessity (work).
No, I haven't. And I would contend that mdu's sitch is NOT working, because:
a) mdu herself remains extremely anxious about the daily contact (it doesn't work for her) -- she does not feel safe in the relationship. And
b) After 7 months, her husband still professes to having feelings for OW. Had full no-contact happened, "hard withdrawal" would have taken only a couple of weeks, and his feelings for OW most likely would have been gone by now, in my experience.
It's a chemical/physiological thing, Tar. As Yogi said, "You can look it up." Continued contact (even NEGATIVE contact, btw) resets the wayward's withdrawal "clock" to 0:00:00 upon each contact.
Starsky
Tar,
I am interested to hear where you end up on full transparency vs. working on building back the trust. I totally understand the need for full transparency and why people on these boards advocate for it. But as a total novice at this, I also can see why the middle ground as a staring point might work. The former is a "rip the band aid off" approach while the latter is the "slowly remove the band aid" approach.
Tar,
I am interested to hear where you end up on full transparency vs. working on building back the trust. I totally understand the need for full transparency and why people on these boards advocate for it. But as a total novice at this, I also can see why the middle ground as a staring point might work.
How so?
Here is my thinking...not knowing the background of Tar's sitch...his W made a huge mistake. She knows it or at least we all hope so. But for whatever reason she is not ready to hand over her phone and provide full access. But perhaps she is willing to do things to show we is moving in the right direction. Canceling her FB account, for example? Providing more and more transparency every day until full transparency is there. Again, I am the novice but trying to keep an open mind.
But, I do agree that she should not continue to socialize with him and his friends. That frankly is a slap in Tar's face. If you are an alcoholic, you don't go to bars. Same here for his W's friends and the OM.
Has anyone seen a case of this being successful when OP is not removed completely?
NO! OMG, do you see what you are doing
now?
Has anyone seen a case of this being successful when OP is not removed completely?
NO! OMG, do you see what you are doing
now?
This isn't being asked as an excuse- it's a question I'm looking for an honest answer for. If our pro marriage, solution based MC hadn't recommended it, I wouldn't even be considering it. I've been asking myself if it's an option I should even be considering. I'm looking for more info before making any type of decision and that would involve discussing the logistics in our next MC appt. And to Starsky's point, I do have serious concerns about W regaining feelings for me while OM has not been removed completely and I stated that in MC.
The fact that she said (in front of MC) that she'd be willing to shut down FB and bring me along when she goes to meet up with those friends does show me that she's willing to move in the right direction. For what it's worth, I would venture a guess that W hangs out with that group maybe once every 2 weeks, if that. She's a sub for their volleyball team (which ends this weekend) so sometimes plays or watches. So it's not like she's with them every weekend (she usually has the kids). Are there other ways to remain in contact with OM? Of course, but that would be the case whether full transparency existed or not.
True or not, W has told me (and MC) that she has no problem giving up contact with OM as it was never about him. Not excusing it, but I get that- we've been apart for a year and it did not become a 'relationship' until after we were S. Is it an A if you date someone while S from your spouse? I have my own personal beliefs on that, but that's not a black and white answer for some. However, she's stated her issue with full transparency is more of a control thing. Her feeling like I act like a dad to her was a big hangup in our M. She thinks I'll drive myself (and her) crazy looking for 'something' I can use against her. I admit the old Tarheel probably would have done that.
For what it's worth...
You can put all the rules, regulations, no contact letters, no facebook, get rid of old love letters, pictures, and on and on and on and on into hoping your wife will come around......
The fact will always remain that unless your wife WANTS to willingly by choice do those things (and they WILL do them by choice willingly without prodding when you let go completely).. you are just wasting time trying to make her do things to prove something...
Tarheel.....
In my opinion you can't force or pressure someone into doing something and have it last if it isn't really what they want to do....
This is being proven again by you vs the vets trying to advise (pressure) you to do what they think is correct.....
I think we need to let you go and do it your way because that is quite honestly what you are doing anyway.... You are doing the same thing to the vets on here that your wife is doing to you.. Promising one thing and doing another....
Just sayin...
Tarheel, I have to imagine that at *some* point eventually W would get over OM, even with continued contact. I can't imagine that there's any research that says that the chemicals that Starksky and others reference go on indefinitely. Just doesn't make sense to me, that would mean that no one gets over a broken up relationship if they happen to have contact with that person. What does that say for all the divorced couples who have continued contact due to kids? They never get over each other? Granted, I get an affair is a bit different because of the intensity of it. But I don't think that an affair creates any different 'in love' chemicals than any other relationship. H and I had a very intense courtship, I doubt he's feeling anything different with OW than he felt with me. Has someone really proven that there's a special affair chemical that never, ever dies as long as there's contact?
Having said all that, I think the core issues are twofold: 1). I believe continued contact will drag out any reconciliation attempts. The feelings will take longer to die and that leaves less space for feelings for you to grow. Just like any break-up, if you continue to be around the person it's much harder to get over. 2). There's definitely a HIGH risk that they will fall back into a relationship as long as they are in contact. Feelings will likely continue to linger for a longer time than if they had no contact. And as long as their are feelings there's high risk for things to reignite.
So the question is, are you willing to live with likely a much longer reconciliation and take the very real risk of her getting reinvolved with OM? Only you can answer that, obviously. As you can imagine, I'm grappling with the exact same questions.
Tar,
What is your truth? Be true to yourself...in a real & authentic way.
For me, I KNOW without any question that I have zero desire to have ANY type of contact or communications with Ms. Wonka's OW. You can see that clearly in reading my thread over in the Big D forum.
What is it, Tar?
This isn't being asked as an excuse- it's a question I'm looking for an honest answer for.
No, I have not seen a successful reconciliation as long as OM was in the picture.
I have been active on the board for a little over seven years, and I can honestly say I do not remember ever reading of a stitch where a WAW who was in an A gradually eased out with OM b/c her feelings for the LBH were stronger than for the OM. I
have seen cases where the A eventually fizzled out. But let me say this to you and to the others who thought maybe it might work out after the A fades out over enough time. Just b/c an A ends does not mean the WAW will want to have anything to do with the LBH who waited around to get whatever leftovers he could. She will have a big issue of lack of respect for him.
First of all, she doesn't respect him b/c she had an A. Secondly, she doesn't respect him if he repeatedly compromises his integrity to get her back. And when she doesn't respect him, she is not attracted to him.....and therefore will likely not return to the M out of love for him.
Tarheel, how many times has your W "said" something that never transpired? How many times have you been set up, just to have another heartbreak? It is easy to tell the MC she's willing to do this & that, but come show down.....it will be a different story. She won't deliver.
Yes, I support transparency b/c I know how easy it would be to backslide into that secret place again. I know the temptation, the depression, the loneliness, missing the thrill & connection with the OM.....while feeling nothing for the H. Sure she could find some way to contact OM but if she's sincere about ending the A, she will work with transparency. The transparency is not just to assure the H, but to help the W stick to her resolve. Giving an account, as it were, goes a long way when one is
truly trying to turn things around in their life. If she is being truthful and really has ended things with OM, she won't protest to transparency, and in fact, should welcome it in order to prove she has nothing to hide. As long as she wants to keep her "privacy" and have her little secret life apart from you.....it can't be successful.
This isn't being asked as an excuse- it's a question I'm looking for an honest answer for.
No, I have not seen a successful reconciliation as long as OM was in the picture.
I have been active on the board for a little over seven years, and I can honestly say I do not remember ever reading of a stitch where a WAW who was in an A gradually eased out with OM b/c her feelings for the LBH were stronger than for the OM. I
have seen cases where the A eventually fizzled out. But let me say this to you and to the others who thought maybe it might work out after the A fades out over enough time. Just b/c an A ends does not mean the WAW will want to have anything to do with the LBH who waited around to get whatever leftovers he could. She will have a big issue of lack of respect for him.
First of all, she doesn't respect him b/c she had an A. Secondly, she doesn't respect him if he repeatedly compromises his integrity to get her back. And when she doesn't respect him, she is not attracted to him.....and therefore will likely not return to the M out of love for him.
Tarheel, how many times has your W "said" something that never transpired? How many times have you been set up, just to have another heartbreak? It is easy to tell the MC she's willing to do this & that, but come show down.....it will be a different story. She won't deliver.
Yes, I support transparency b/c I know how easy it would be to backslide into that secret place again. I know the temptation, the depression, the loneliness, missing the thrill & connection with the OM.....while feeling nothing for the H. Sure she could find some way to contact OM but if she's sincere about ending the A, she will work with transparency. The transparency is not just to assure the H, but to help the W stick to her resolve. Giving an account, as it were, goes a long way when one is
truly trying to turn things around in their life. If she is being truthful and really has ended things with OM, she won't protest to transparency, and in fact, should welcome it in order to prove she has nothing to hide. As long as she wants to keep her "privacy" and have her little secret life apart from you.....it can't be successful.
Inconvenient TRUTH, right there. ^^^
Starsky
Tar, I don't have any advice, just words of support. It must be a confusing time for you. On the one hand, it's great that she's agreed to MC and to working on relationship with you, on the other hand, it's clear she hasn't totally moved on in her heart from OM. The only thing that will make a difference is time.
My only advice is to give her space. Pushing too hard too soon might drive her away. Know that she will have to make this choice on her own.
I know that if my H returned wanting to work on our M, I would have a hard time demanding transparency because he would see it as controlling (one of the issues that likely drove him away in the first place).
What I would have to say to him is, "I'm not sure what can be done to rebuild my trust, but I'll be open to any ideas that you have." This would put the ball in his court, and let him know that if he wants the M he has to do the work to rebuild the trust -- it has to be worth it for him.
That being said, I would totally want a post-nup.
Anyway, keep doing whatever you were doing that got you this far along in the first place.
Thanks everyone for all the feedback and honesty. Looks like I'm going to have to start yet another new thread!
I've tried not to put a whole lot of thought into how to navigate the OM/circle of friends issue until we're back in MC on Wed. I have absolutely 0 desire to ever talk to or be in the vicinity of OM, however I do understand that some compromise may be required on my part as far as the circle of friends are concerned. 1 day at a time.
W and I just got back from a 'date' earlier. I had planned on rock climbing for something a little different, but apparently didn't pay close enough attention to the hours. W mentioned maybe us taking S12 another time. So we ended up getting dinner then the movie 'Gone Girl.' I figured she wanted to see that with her girlfriends, but she suggested we go see it. Tomorrow she asked about her and I taking the kids to a movie. Our interaction seems to be going well lately. We both seem interested in what the other person is saying and don't just talk about kids and bills, like in the past.
Ironic that I ran into one of W's best friend's H last night. They seem to be heading towards a D and quite a few people 'blame' my W. They're both verbally abusive to each other (mainly him) so maybe D is the right choice. Anyways, we only talked for a few, but I could sense his anger (his W proposed the S). So this morning I get a call from his W asking what he told me. We haven't really spoken in a while, mainly because I didn't want to involve one of W's friends, but we ended up talking for an hour and a half about each other's situations. I think it was good for both of us. She's part of the 'circle of friends', but I knew her before that.
Oh, almost forgot- W told me tonight that she closed her FB account last night (yes I double checked). Definitely a positive step and one taken without my nagging.
We haven't really spoken in a while, mainly because I didn't want to involve one of W's friends, but we ended up talking for an hour and a half about each other's situations. I think it was good for both of us. She's part of the 'circle of friends', but I knew her before that.
As long as you realize everything you said to her will be repeated to your W. Never confide in your W's
best friend!