Hello,
I have not learned all of the abbreviations so I apologize.
In a nutshell- H told me he was having an A on Mothers' Day.
Moved in with OW. In his deceased parents home. (They were killed in a car accident in 2009) He's drinking again after being sober for several years-
she drinks and parties. She's married.
Several years of him not coming home stopping at bars. Missed many dinners with me and our two children. H complained that he didn't feel wanted. His work day ended at 3. He wouldn't come home until 7 or 8. Then go to bed. Some weekends he would be out all night.
I told him I don't want a divorce. I want to work things out. H says, he's not sure.
Doesn't attempt to see our kids (18 and 14). Really has no contact with them at all. Says they mean the world to him.
On Sept. 11 will be 4 months. Money is tight so I haven't signed up for phone counseling. Will they help with making a payment plan?
Would appreciate your input.
Hi secondt,
Welcome to the best place to be, during this challenging time in your life.
Thank you for your post in my thread. I realize that in my last post in my thread, there are some parallels in our situations. At the beginning of my situation, I was the LBS. One thing that I can have you reference, is my timeline. Bring your patience.
You will read over and over on the forums to detach. For me, that was key and it isn't a skill that comes naturally. It is a learned skill. It was for me at least.
There are a lot of things that I can say, however this journey begins with you. It begins with you making changes. It begins with you becoming the best you that you possibly can become. Go out there and GAL(Get a life). Live life, because it does not await anyone. This is for your own good. Imagine the perfect partner, then go out there and become that person.
Sometimes our situations/life will knock us down to the point of emotional paralysis. That is normal. However, you have a choice to stay down or to keep fighting. You only control one person, and that person is you.
I realize how much going through this suks, however I am grateful for the experience. It has changed me for the better. You can learn more from one storm, than a thousand days of sunshine.
In your original post, the focus was mainly on your H. Tell us about yourself. What areas in the marriage can you identify where you can improve?
Thanks LITB- I appreciate your response.
I have been given that advice from many- to take care of myself and concentrate on myself. I am trying.
You are right it is hard to detach sometimes, especially when you miss your spouse so much.
The area I think I need the most improvement on is communication. I need to communicate my needs better. I need to communicate my feelings better and not wait until they boil over.
I need to communicate better with every day issues, like bills and schedules because I would keep all of that to myself and become so overwhelmed with what I was taking on and never giving some of those responsibilities to my H.
And then the resentment would kick in. The next step would be giving my H the cold shoulder and ignoring him.... this mixed with the fact that he wasn't coming home some nights or not coming home from the bars until 3-4 hours after his work day ended...... He felt like I didn't respect him...and frankly I didn't feel like he respected me either....
So ..... how do I move forward from here?
I can relate to you on the communication (passive-aggressive behavior). It is something that I am working through myself.
There are plenty of things you can do to move forward. I suggest reading The Divorce Remedy by Michele Wiener Davis to start with. Also, on the home page of this site, you can read the articles under "Free Advice". Along with reading and posting to other threads in the forums.
Google, "Livestrong Developing Detachment". I referenced this often. It helped me understand what detachment meant. Other great material to reference on this site:
Tools for coping The main thing, focus on getting yourself through this mess. My situation changed twice, when I was living my life as a single father.
What I am say, is that if/when you do the work, you will be better for it no matter the outcome.
LITB,
So... I am beginning the work...
But I guess my biggest concern is that he is living with this woman. I feel as though I don't have much of a chance when he is with her constantly.
I am reading "Divorce Busting" and reading threads..... I know I have things that I will change--- what things did your wife do that made you take notice and took your attention away from your GF and give your attention to your wife?
H spends all weekend with her. Has yet to try and spend time with our kids.....
I called him today and asked if he would like to come over to dinner this week- making one of his favorites- so that he could spend time with the kids.... he did accept- so we'll see....
I've only been following DB for a couple of months, so I'm no expert or vet yet. But I would not try to win him back while he's with OW. He is just going to cake-eat. He gets to have exciting weekends with his GF and then get a nice home-cooked meal on occasion from his W? That's a WAH's dream. It would only prolong the A as his EN's (emotional needs) would be met in spades - no reason to change anything. It might even feel like you approve of the A.
I have a PI investigating a possible A by my WAW. If I get confirmation, here will be my course of action:
- Expose the A. OM's family (W, mother, friends, whoever I can talk to), WAW's family, my family. I've seen that this can help expedite the ending of the A as it eliminates the fun of secrecy and causes lots of other problems for the two in the A.
- Demand that the A end immediately and that all contact permanently cease.
- If WAW does not agree to that in a short time frame (1 week), I will cut off all direct contact with her until the A is over. All necessary communication (daughter) would go through an intermediary.
Secondt, I'm no expert, but it seems that the A is almost always bound to burn out relatively quickly. Work on you, he'll probably notice.
Card29...you may want to see what some vets think of your plan. Exposing the A does very little to make you look good. Really the exact opposite. Check w/ vets who've dealt w/ As before.
I think I would at least expose it to OM's W. Maybe not nuclear exposure.
It may only drive them closer. Of your W to a 2nd OM. You need to get some vets to weigh in.
LITB,
So... I am beginning the work...
But I guess my biggest concern is that he is living with this woman. I feel as though I don't have much of a chance when he is with her constantly.
I am reading "Divorce Busting" and reading threads..... I know I have things that I will change--- what things did your wife do that made you take notice and took your attention away from your GF and give your attention to your wife?
H spends all weekend with her. Has yet to try and spend time with our kids.....
I called him today and asked if he would like to come over to dinner this week- making one of his favorites- so that he could spend time with the kids.... he did accept- so we'll see....
secondt...I realize that you want this to resolve quickly, however there is no magic bullet. It took a lot of time for your marriage to get to this point and it is going to take a lot of time to get to the other side.
Remember I was originally the LBS, so I can probably relate more to you, than to your H. My W was in the midst of an affair, which lasted over a year. I did not know about it for about 9 months. Probably didn't want to believe it to be more accurate. She filed for D, moved 1200 miles away, and eventually I was ordered to send my children to her by the judge.
The biggest mistake I made, was to allow FEAR to be my navigational guide. It cost me a lot of money and time with my children. Looking back, I enabled a lot of her behavior. That was a big revelation to me. I would have done things differently knowing what I know now.
Why do I tell you this? For two reasons:
1. It wasn't until I detached and dropped the rope that things changed in my situation. See, I wasn't looking at what my W was doing or not doing. As long as my kids were being cared for, it didn't matter. I just knew life wasn't as bad as I had feared. Quite frankly, I was beginning to enjoy and embrace my new life.
2. I highly suggest that you set boundaries. For example, not having dinner with him or spending time as a "family" while he is involved with OW, otherwise you enable his behavior.
You can read the last few post in my thread to get an idea why I chose to work things out with my W.
I've only been following DB for a couple of months, so I'm no expert or vet yet. But I would not try to win him back while he's with OW. He is just going to cake-eat. He gets to have exciting weekends with his GF and then get a nice home-cooked meal on occasion from his W? That's a WAH's dream. It would only prolong the A as his EN's (emotional needs) would be met in spades - no reason to change anything. It might even feel like you approve of the A.
I have a PI investigating a possible A by my WAW. If I get confirmation, here will be my course of action:
- Expose the A. OM's family (W, mother, friends, whoever I can talk to), WAW's family, my family. I've seen that this can help expedite the ending of the A as it eliminates the fun of secrecy and causes lots of other problems for the two in the A.
- Demand that the A end immediately and that all contact permanently cease.
- If WAW does not agree to that in a short time frame (1 week), I will cut off all direct contact with her until the A is over. All necessary communication (daughter) would go through an intermediary.
Card,
I agree with the first part of your post. I disagree with exposing the affair to anyone, other than letting your W know you are aware of it if that is what your P.I. discovers. Starsky is really good with how to handle this type of situation. Read some of his posts.
I think exposing it to others will cause more damage than you hope. To be frank, it portrays you as manipulative and controlling.
Card29-
My H is the kind of person you can not tell what to do. I have read other material that makes agrees with your suggestion of forcing H to end the affair or cut off all ties.
I know my H personality and if I were to do that- he would say forget it and not even try. He would think that I am pulling away and not wanting to commit to my marriage. I tried not communicating with him for a couple of weeks and he became very frustrated and angry with me- and ready to pull the plug. Is that supposed to be the effect of ending communication???
Joe1981-
This A has been going on almost 5 months now. They live together... I pray everyday that God will end the A. GF is married too. I am concerned with Card29's comment that he will think I approve of the A- or that it is okay that he have a GF.
I am working so hard on changing how I interact with him and try to stay so positive and not induce drama- I don't mention the A or go anywhere near the topic. H has told me GF is insecure... I am sure GF is clinging to him with everything she can....
This is so hard
Secondt
LTB
I appreciate your perspective.
So- do I un- invite him? My purpose in having him come to the house for dinner is to see what he is missing. To spend time with the kids. To have a positive interaction with us....
Now I am not sure what to do...
Don't uninvite. Be the absolute best you possible, w/out being over the top. Then, don't be so hasty to invite in the future.
If you think he thinks you're ok with the A, and talks about it or the OW at all, be absolutely crystal clear that you will have nothing to do with that. Don't freak on him, but just make your position known. You will not be his sounding board about the A or the OW.
If/when it is all over, it may become time to talk about it, until then...you want to hear none of it.
My 2 cents.
Thanks for you 2cents because I was feeling that I had made a grave mistake.
When I have been around my H lately I haven't even acknowledged the A. This I guess is my form of detachment.
Rightly or wrongly.
I really appreciate your help- please continue to give me your 2 cents!!
Joe gave you some sound advice. Go with the plan and make the best of this opportunity.
You didn't make a grave mistake. You are just trying to find your way.
From what I gather, you are trying to get him to snap out of his fog. I did the same type of things. Looking back, it felt like walking on eggshells, trying to be perfect and monitoring every little action of my W. Looking for any little sign of hope in her reactions. She knew that I wasn't going anywhere. Subconsciously, she kept me at an arms length. She was able to continue to live in her fantasy, because it didn't motivate her to make a change.
What motivated her to make a change, was when I accepted my life as a single father and began living my life accordingly. Which was without it. I had a realization that it wasn't as bad as I had feared. The beauty of that epiphany is that we have that choice.
To be clear, I was genuinely ready to move forward without her. It wasn't a trick to get her back. That's why you have to focus on yourself. Use this as an opportunity to grow and become the best person possible.
Hope this helps.
Yes, LITB your comments do help. I am focusing on me and my kids.
I know we would get along just fine (except financially) without him. I feel I have changed in the past several months.
But I had decided that I would continue reaching out to my H to assure him that I am not giving up hope, not giving up on him, not giving up on us and our family. At first I did feel as though I was walking on eggshells, but once I made the conscious decision to ignore the A and work on reconnecting.
Last week he said that he's trying to figure things out... I don't really know what that means and I don't want to get my hopes up- so I just didn't say anything back to him.
Baby steps for sure.
I know my H personality and if I were to do that- he would say forget it and not even try. He would think that I am pulling away and not wanting to commit to my marriage. I tried not communicating with him for a couple of weeks and he became very frustrated and angry with me- and ready to pull the plug. Is that supposed to be the effect of ending communication???
I didn't read this post this morning. I want to touch on this part.
You said that you know your H's personality. Has he been in this type of situation before? Curious to know if you have something similar in his history to reference.
See, you conveyed your concern that he would feel that you are pulling away and giving up on your marriage. It is a common fear to have and to operate from, as a LBS. You will find that in most situations on this forum.
You asked if him being frustrated and angry is the effect of you stopping communication. Of course he is gonna get frustrated, because you aren't going along with his plan. I am gonna be honest with you. You are enabling him. He is in the middle of an affair that you are aware of. You are allowing him have his cake and eat it too. There isn't a whole lot in your situation to motivate him to make a change.
Now, I would go with the dinner as planned, however I wouldn't continue doing those things.
One thing that doesn't get mentioned much, is that us LBSes are in our own emotional fog early on. We operate in fear of pushing our WASes further away. The reality is that they can't be pushed much further if they have walked out the door or are already in another relationship. Just some food for thought.
"You said that you know your H's personality. Has he been in this type of situation before? Curious to know if you have something similar in his history to reference."
Yes, he has had a couple of friendships where things have gone bad and he has tried to reconnect, but the other people don't respond. So he has just given up.
I tried the method of telling him that I wasn't going to communicate with him. That if I needed something I would contact a mutual person to let him know there was an issue with the house, or with the kids and then have that person contact him. I also told him that if he wanted to see the kids he could contact our older son and find out about them through him. Thus, all contact with me would cease. He got really pissed. Saying that no matter what happened we would still need to have mutual communication since we have children and property. He told me that my plan was BS.
Yes, I am worried about pissing him off and then pushing him to the point that we won't communicate at all.
He told me the other day that he is trying to figure things out.
We have gotten together twice to just sit and talk and have a couple of drinks and not discuss the affair- to just connect again. I don't want to lose that.
Do I make him change by pissing him off????
So, how do I walk away? What do I say?
Okay, I realize this is all overwhelming right now. Let's slow down and breath.
I empathize with your anxiety of pushing him further away. Been there, done that. Let's rewind a little bit. In your first response to me, you said that you needed to learn how to communicate your needs better. That takes us to what we are dealing with at this point. You are paralyzed by the fear of pushing further away...or completely away altogether. Let's call it the LBS fog of fear.
First, you will need to overcome this fear. It takes times. This is something I had to overcome myself. Even during my marriage, before the mess. Instead of saying no to things, I would go along with my W to avoid disagreements. Later they would boil over and I would become upset. Now, I will say no to certain things. The right delivery makes a world of difference.
I tell you this, because I think you may have been the same way in your marriage based on your responses.
So to answer your questions. It isn't your job to change him. People change, only when they choose to change. Now, you can influence change on him, by first changing yourself. Like you already said, you need to learn how to communicate your needs to him. That should be your first assignment.
You asked, what do you say? As I mentioned above, delivery makes a world of difference. You can always communicate in a loving manner without being rude or defensive. When you are ready, you can say something like, "H, you know that I love you and want to work things out, however, I cannot continue with a third person in our situation. We need to operate independent of one another, with the exception of the kids or house(whatever else requires contact) only." Then walk away or if it is on the phone, let him know that you have to go. Don't wait for his response. Don't get caught up in his anger. That's not for you to worry about. You own your part and address your issues.
You have to be ready to do that. It has to be genuine. It isn't a trick or game to get him back. It took me a long time to get there. I'd guess about 14 months. I confirmed the affair 12-13 months in.
Also, journal your feelings, thoughts and things you might say. It helped me to remember what I planned on saying and with my delivery.
How are you doing secondt?
LITB
Thanks... I haven't had the opportunity to talk with H.
Funny but you hit something dead on. I have always had to temper
what I said to H if I wanted to voice my opinions or frustration
about anything. So that I wouldn't bring on arguments. Often I
would agree with him, even though I really didn't just to keep
peace. I know I should have never started our relationship
like that.
Next week he is taking her to the beach for "Bike Week".
Something we have done as a couple for the past several years.
I am sick to my stomach about it. I told him that I was hoping
we could have worked things out by now so that we could go
together. That I am disappointed about not going. His response
was he didn't think I had a very good time last year. I told him
I enjoyed getting away with him and spending time with him...
No response to that.
I guess LITB that I have been so glad we have had a couple of
really good times together- and I want to still see him.
But- as you said before then I am enabling the affair. I am
also "accepting" his sin and his relationship. I know I
shouldn't do that. I guess I'm fearful of H choosing her
over me. Oh how I hate all of this!!!!
LITB
Thanks... I haven't had the opportunity to talk with H.
Funny but you hit something dead on. I have always had to temper
what I said to H if I wanted to voice my opinions or frustration
about anything. So that I wouldn't bring on arguments.
was there something in your delivery that triggered arguments? What would HE say to that question?
Often I
would agree with him, even though I really didn't just to keep
peace. I know I should have never started our relationship
like that.
Next week he is taking her to the beach for "Bike Week".
Something we have done as a couple for the past several years.
I am sick to my stomach about it. I told him that I was hoping
we could have worked things out by now so that we could go
together. That I am disappointed about not going.
Have you read the Div Busting book(s)? They offer some good advice about not bringing up the OP and strongly advise against exposure.
Also these comments to him are pure pursuit; is that a choice you are making to pursue him now, or did you not see it as such? I'd urge you to hire a DB coach b/c even though they seem pricey, they are cheaper than divorce is, and they cost about the same as most mc's do who are not on my insurance plan.
I found mine to be a Godsend.
His response
was he didn't think I had a very good time last year. I told him
I enjoyed getting away with him and spending time with him...
No response to that.
Is there any reason he might feel you did not enjoy it last year? Think hard about it. Be brave and do some digging.
Did you complain, or sigh a lot, or argue? Why do YOU think he said that you did not seem to have had a good time?
I guess LITB that I have been so glad we have had a couple of
really good times together- and I want to still see him.
But- as you said before then I am enabling the affair. I am
also "accepting" his sin and his relationship.
I seriously doubt he thinks you are fine with it. I'd bet anything he knows exactly how you feel. And calling it a "sin" to HIM or the kids, will be a huge turn off as he'll say you are judgmental and critical, and that you broke the vows by not cherishing him, and all the rest, etc. So be mindful of your word choices. Besides, it cannot help your PMA to say that about him anyhow, right?
Remember you want to counter his negative views of you, which he used to justify as his reasons for leaving, with new positive behaviors that show him his "data" about you is either false, or no longer true.
What are your 180s?
I know I
shouldn't do that. I guess I'm fearful of H choosing her
over me. Oh how I hate all of this!!!!
\
OF course that is your biggest fear.
So, since we know that WASs' will Not return to a marriage they left,
unless
they believe the marriage can be different/better than before....
what are YOU doing to SHOW him that?
(Not words but actions and behaviors that are new and different in you)?\\\
Becoming a woman only a fool would leave, will benefit you no matter what he chooses. Do you get that?
I'm not sure what to do-
I have met my H once a week for the past couple of weeks, for a
drink and we chat about work, the kids, politics, etc... But I
always stay positive and never mention the A. I enjoy spending
this time with him- and he seems to enjoy it as well. However,
yesterday when I spoke with him on the phone, as we concluded
our discussion, I said to him, "Will we have a chance to get
together next week?" He said that he might have time Tuesday
or Wednesday. I said, why are you only free those days. He
told me it's because the OW works late one night a bowls the
other night. I said, "So, I guess she doesn't know that you
have seen me these past couple of weeks..." He said, "No, and
I'd like to keep it that way." Am I an idiot? Should it be
okay for me to see him with the OW not knowing? I can't believe
I am even saying this!!! Spending this time with me, I hope
lets him see a positive me, trying to be a "happy, together
woman" that he would wish he hadn't left.... Is it okay to
spend this time with him????
Maybe let him be the one to ask you out for a while. Don't initiate asking.
Also, don't ask questions about how he spends his time. You don't benefit from knowing.
You already know that he's in an A.
Put some healthy distance between yourself and him.
Even though you may enjoy spending time with him, and maybe even enjoy the fact that he is "cheating" on OW by spending time with you, is it worth the emotional energy you spend after the fact trying to figure out what he's thinking.
You said yourself that you are enabling the A.
Sounds like he is cake-eating.
Some people say that he has to think that he might be losing you to feel differently.
Maybe don't make yourself so available to him all the time, as difficult as that may be.
(I am also guilty of jumping to say YES every time H invites me to do something.)
Ask yourself this: Are you detached yet?
If the answer is "No" then it's time to put more energy into being your own person, independent of whatever happens in your R with H, and GAL.
Thanks for your thoughts....
He called me this morning and asked to get together after work. And--- I went. We spent 2 1/2 hours together. Talking, laughing and yes, I did a some flirting...
When we left, I gave him a big hug and a few kisses and told him that I love him dearly and that I am praying for our marriage. He smiled and then he said, "I just don't think I can commit to anyone right now." And then, "I'm not ready to be romantic with you." So.... I'm not sure what this all means.
If he can't commit- does he want a divorce?? Of course he can continue with the A because he doesn't have to commit to her, she's married too... and he gets to have his physical needs met and has her to go here and there with... " That really hurts.....
secondt...this H of yours is running a game on you AND the OW.
He is teasing you with thoughts of a romance that should be yours alone. I don't know DB (the book), I only have DR, but the DR chapter on infidelity is your guidebook here.
He is eating two kinds of cake and his smugness about it is the ice cream on the side.
It is despicable, dishonorable behavior.