Old dog seeks new trick 3 - DivorceBusting.com

Old dog seeks new trick 2

And so thread number 3 kicks off on a positive note.

I've been rockin' a solid PMA all day today.

My wife and kids returned from their long weekend away, I was super happy to see them, gave them all a hug and asked about the time they had and how our friends are getting on.

Trying to think of her as my sister after DB coach Chuck's suggestion. Loving detachment.

Made me and the kids some food (my wife wasn't hungry).

We have a house that we rent out to another family and we rent somewhere else (it's complicated), but my wife brought up the subject that house prices are going up and maybe we should think about selling. We always said we wanted to keep/transfer our mortgage as we're on a good rate.

I told her about a house nearby I'd had my eye on for months - yeah I know, future plans, big no, no: it just came out - but she didn't say wait a minute buster we're splitting the cash. I kept schtum after that though.

It doesn't take much to knock you of you perch does it.

I'm selling a car and just had someone who wants to come and view it on Sunday so I asked my wife if she had any plans this weekend.

Yes, she's going to her mother's on Sunday (there's a school reunion party going on) and has next week off as well.

She hasn't told me about the party or taking next week off, they're not on our calendar, and she didn't mention the party just now either, but I saw it in the diary she keeps in the kitchen. It's not a secret diary, just a planner but it's hers, I don't record things in it. I didn't mention I know, but I did say I haven't seen your parents for a while which I probably shouldn't have - I don't know if she's told them. I don't know if she's told our friends who she visited last weekend either

Just a little reminder that I'm not uppermost in her thoughts anymore. Oh and while we'e on the subject, they brought back 3 beer glasses from their long weekend away. Yes 3. There are 4 of us. Sigh!

On a brighter note, I am going to go to a tech meet up this evening in a nearby city. I haven't been to one before. I'm hoping to network with some people and maybe put some feelers out about a new job in the local area. There's a while to wait after my jury service finishes and the meet up begins: it's probably not worth coming home, so I may go to the cinema or read 5LL some more.

Old Dog xx

Hi Old Dog, it's so true that sometimes it is the little things that knock you down. Weird and irritating. Try not to worry about it too much.

Great to hear you are going to a meet up and are going to network. I think you'll have a good time and enjoy yourself. Going to the cinema or taking some time to read in a pub sound like good in between activities.

Also thanks for your replies to me about the 5LL on your previous thread. I love talking so I'm not the best listener sometimes, although I am pretty good at connecting with my friends so I guess they feel I listen to them just enough

When asked what my H would like to do on a random Saturday, he would often just say "spend time with you". I guess for him Quality Time was mostly about being together doing whatever, sometimes just being in the same room doing parallel things. He felt comfort having someone around. I do not share this need, so I didn't get it. I could have been a better listener though, just another 180 to add to the list I guess!

Hope you have a good day!
Hugs, Lisa

Slight update about weekend plans.

This weekend is bank holiday weekend, but my wife is planning to go to her mother's on Sunday for I don't know how many days leaving me alone at home again.

I was hoping we'd all do some family activity. We can on Saturday, as far as I know, but come on it's bank holiday weekend! I was alone for 4 days last weekend. She's got next week off, she can go then, it won't be so bad as I'll either be in court or discharged and have to go back to work.

It definately feels like she is avoiding me and at the same time depriving me of the kids too who help me keep a PMA. I feel quite frustrated and a little angry about this.

Just read somone saying on a different thread "keep your eyes on the prize". The long haul then.

Her school reunion is the next weekend. I don't know if she'll make that.

And the meet up I went to this evening wasn't so good. Started off OK, chatted to a few people but when the presentations started (it was super tech stuff), it was way over my head. And it took so long that by the time I got home, W was in bed and I had to immediately round up the kids and get them into bed. Waste of an evening really. Hey ho.

(Not so) Old Dog xx

Uh oh. We had a conversation just now. More later. I'm really glad the forum is back.

Just made the dinner and have to thank the onions I chopped for disguising my tears whilst cooking.

So this is what we discussed. I have jotted it down as quickly as I could so I could remember as much as I can.

She does not seem to have shifted at all in her decision.
She has told her mum we�re transitioning.
She now wants something more concrete to say to people about our situation so we don�t have to pretend everything is OK.
She has told a couple more people. Her mum and another old school friend.
What is our aim, what are we trying to achieve? Well my goal is certainly different to hers.
She wants this to be as amicable as possible.
She wants me to be OK. So does her mum so she says.
She has noticed I�m trying really hard.
She doesn�t want to hold out any false hope.
We have an �unconventional relationship� where we are still living together and sharing the same bed but not as a couple with no intimacy.
She says this has been OK while I�ve been working away during the week, but isn�t sure it would be all right 24/7 when I find a job locally.
I said I�m going to start looking for another job near home: she welcomed this. as it�ll be good for the kids to have their father around more.
She says I will have to get used to doing things on my own, with the kids and sometimes as a �family unit�.
She says when we tell the kids, we should say they would lose nothing, they would still have two loving parents. I think it will have a long lasting and more profound effect on them than changing schools which was the reason why we moved here and decided to stay for the duration of their schooling.
She wanted to go and spend a week alone with her old school friend to get away. This was not possible so she will take the kids from Sunday - Thursday.
I said I felt really alone last weekend when they were all away for 4 days.
We talked about selling the house we own, giving our tenants first choice to buy.
What would we do with the money? We live in one of the cheapest areas of the country, so it won�t buy much elsewhere.
She said she was thinking of buying somewhere in the bigger town nearby as the small town we rent in doesn�t have much going for it. This is what we first wanted to do when we moved to this area but it is much more pricy. If we bought together, we could maybe get a half decent house, but splitting the money would only buy a small house.
We don�t want to uproot the kids from the schools they are in so we don�t want to move further afield.

I stayed cool calm and collected throughout this conversation. Although I did admit to feeling lonely last weekend when they were all away and was disappointed she wants to go away next week with the kids leaving me on my own again. I am at home for 2 weeks and have enjoyed coming back to the family home, but if they�ve all gone I�ll be sad and lonely again.

I feel really down about how she doesn�t seemed to have shifted at all in her decision to get out of this relationship. I so much wanted to say we should do everything we possibly can to save our marriage. We should leave no stone unturned. If we split up, even if everything is as amicable as possible, it will still have a lasting effect on the children. For their sakes as well as our own we should explore whether we can rekindle the love.

I wish I could get her to read DR and 5LL and understand that you can fall back in love. I Have learnt so much in the past 3 months and would be an awesome husband. But right now, I don�t think I�ve ever felt quite as low.

What do I do now?

Oh Old Dog,

I'm sorry that was such a bummer of a conversation and I wish I had some useful advice to give. Instead I will use this opportunity to bump you back to the top of the thread (where someone wiser may weigh in) and also say that it certainly sounds like you have been doing just about everything right and I'm sure you will continue to do so.

Best wishes and hugs

Thanks raliced

Not feeling so good right now. As it's now nearly 2am and I can't sleep I'm going to do my own bump.

I know working on myself is for me, detaching is for me, GAL is for me, counselling is for me. And it's important to continue to do these things to become a better and more rounded and capable person. But at the end of the day, we're all on here to try and do something that will encourage our spouses to see the light.

I feel my wife has revaluated her life, set herself a goal and put blinkers on. And no matter what I do, she's not going to waver.

Collaborating to keep you near the top of the thread.

I think your description of your wife having blinkers on is very apt. Despite all the hard work you have chronicled here, you are still competing with the fantasy of what she thinks life could be like. Maybe it will take the reality of those changes not being what she hoped to knock those blinders off. I've read through so many of these stories the last two weeks and it just seems very improbable to me that the vast majority of our spouses won't have some sort of second thoughts. I guess it's all in the timing.

Keep the faith.

Old Dog, I don't have a lot of wisdom but I'm weighing in with warm thoughts.

Have you given any thought to what you'd want your single life to be like?

How is the detaching going?

If your W is going to be gone again, rather than being lonely and sleepless, give that time some purpose and work on those two things. It's really hard to detach when you still share a bed.

It's the nature of a WAS to have blinkers or distorting glasses on when they interact with the LBS. It is reassuring that she noticed your changes. I keep getting reminded of the importance of patience. I've been running this course a lot longer than you, and if I'm still in the race you can be too. Just be ok if things get worse before they get better.

Rooting for you!

Detaching has a way to go I fear Maybell as I'm back to square one in the emotional wreck situation though hiding that to the best of my ability. She will have noticed I was up in the night though. 6am and awake again. Not much sleep at all. Still waking up and feeling the hand of dread on my heart, but it's tighter thus morning.

My wife is up though, and has been for a while, so what is it that's on her up mind? In week 2 she said this was really hard for her as well as she could make it all right for me by saying, let's give it another try. I refrained from saying 'oh poor you'. Obviously she quashed those thoughts.

Maybe she having similar thoughts or maybe I'm mind reading like a noob.

Yup. Mind reading like a noob. She was looking up a recipe and chopping vegetables for a girls night out tonight which is another thing she hadn't told me about.

She's going out with people she's got to know here, going away for weekends, getting a life. Whereas my life was my family: I know no-one here apart from one person who I barely know at all.

She doesn't seem at all bothered by all this. She seems completely detached and keen to move on. She said last night she had given me space and time to process this but it is still as raw as ever for me. How can she just throw 21 years down the pan without trying everything?

My life is **** and it just feels all too much right now.

Old Dog, I bet my H could have written that post you just wrote. Except it was his choices that got him there rather than mine.

However, if I could have detached while he was in the house, he may not have left. He didn't have the momentum to go without my beating him over the head with my frustration and fear every day.

Detachment and GAL are key for you. Don't try to eat the elephant, just focus on the things you can do on any given day and it will be easier.

Once I accepted that the things I feared were going to happen and started seeing the blessings that remained, I started sleeping through the night. It made a huge difference.

Maybell, the silly thing is, I know all this. It's been almost 3 months! But here I am back at square one. And now, on her way out the door she says she won't be back until tomorrow morning.

It absolutely killing me. I just can't get it out of my mind. I'll have to look at my own Resources for feeling better thread.

I'm considering phoning my wife's mother. When my wife told her about our 'transition phase', she was apparently supportive and non-judgmental, wanting both of us to be OK.

I just wanted to say that this is not my idea, I love her daughter just as much as ever, despite this, but think she is making a big mistake. And of course it will effect our children more than she realises.

I would suggest that my wife is perhaps going through an MLC, re-evaluationg everything but situation is not beyond hope.

I would also ask her NOT to disclose that we ever had this conversation. I feel she would be supportive of our saving our marriage and could be a useful ally.

Tell me, on a scale of 1 - 10. How stupid is this idea because I can't think straight?

10.

Don't involve her family. You're setting yourself up for a tongue-lashing for trying to turn her family against her.

There you are you see. I told you I wasn't thinking straight.

Although it wasn't my intention to turn them against her, just let her know there is another option. But point taken.

I was thinking a 10 too.
Just because it may not have the outcome you are expecting. Though you think it could be helping you, it could turn out to be used against you.

I had the same thoughts of talking to someone my W confides in (a friend of both of ours) to get a temperature check or a how long should I keep holding on check - but I keep telling myself no. It would likely not help the situation. "Do what helps"

Originally Posted By: Old Dog

I know working on myself is for me, detaching is for me, GAL is for me, counselling is for me. And it's important to continue to do these things to become a better and more rounded and capable person. But at the end of the day, we're all on here to try and do something that will encourage our spouses to see the light.

I feel my wife has revaluated her life, set herself a goal and put blinkers on. And no matter what I do, she's not going to waver.

you said you are doing this for you, then said no matter what you do she does not waiver. realize that you doing for you. being a happy guy that helps around the house and friend until the D makes her see what she is missing. I finally realized two weeks ago that I am moving forward, it is her choice if she wants me...not mine. Either way I got it through my head that I have tobe the man I want to be. Her loss. I am here for her, but do not offer any conversation about us and only help her when she asks. I clean-up, cook, workout, stay well dressed, smell good, and even put a few drops of shower gel in specific places so when she showers.....she smells me

Do this for you! JOIN me in keeping this focus.

Hi Old Dog, just checking in to say Im sorry things have seemingly taken a turn for the worst. I know what you mean about your wife seeming to have blinders on and like she is happily moving on. To me it seems you will have to be in this for the long haul as it might take her seeing the grass is not greener in order to wake up.
It sounds like indeed you are competing with the fantasy of a fun singles life as opposed to any problems or boredom with your M. She will have to find out for herself that you are the better option but it seems you'll need to let her go so she can come back on her own.

I suggest trying to be as cool as you can about the situation and set her free from the cage. Seem like you are enjoying your single life as well if you know what I mean. Try new activities, make new friends. Maybe that will give her second thoughts.

We are all wishing you the best and are here for you!
Hugs, Lisa

Thanks for the encouragement folks. I do have to re-focus NewB3. I need to get back to bring busy. But, having said that, masses of 'acts of service' seem to be like water off a ducks back to her. This is obviously not her love language, but one that I just hammer at anyway as it keeps my mind away from misery most of the time and this stuff still needs doing anyway.

One if my problems at the moment Lisa us that no, I most certainly am not enjoying my single life. I don't have a social life at all. Virtually nothing. My life is my family at weekends only. All my friends live miles away and I hardly ever see them. I only have one recently made friend at home and he's just come out of hospital from an op' and is doped up on morphine.

My wife, however, has made work friends locally as she lives and works here and has made the decision to get more involved with them. Part of moving on. All her long term friends also live far away and she's also made efforts to visit them as well at weekends leaving me with the kids or taking them with her.

So getting a life has been extremely difficult for me. I don't think I've managed it very well.

I want to explain to my wife that I don't agree with her assessment that our relationship is over. That there is another option - to work on it and forge a new improved relationship that will work for us. I think we owe it to our children and ours 21 years together to try our best. I've held back from saying this as it's talking about the relationship and the future which we're not supposed to focus on as the LBS is not a big part of that.

I think the past two and a half years, while I've been working away from home, have been especially damaging and sealed her decision even though she says she wasn't happy before. She doesn't want to go to marriage counselling. She has made her decision and thinks I just have to accept it.

When we talked the other day, we did approach future plans, what are we going to do with our house for instance, but she now wants some movement for this part of her plan where we transition into. ... what? I certainly don't want to sell up and split the money. That means neither if us has enough to buy anything decent to live in.

Enough for now, I have to get some sleep.

Old Dog- Would this be a new conversation or one that you have already had previously?

The first part about there being another option would be new.

I did express my belief about the damage caused by my working away from home before in week 1 & 2 which is when she said she has started thinking about how this wasn't enough for her.

Touching on future plans is new. We has a brief conversation last Thursday about it but no decisions were made.

Jus thinking about this again and the reason I feel the need to do this.

During week 1 & 2 when I was pleading not break up and go to marriage counselling again, I didn't know about DB and SBT counselling. Since then, We have not discussed our relationship until last Thursday.

She knows that I considered my previous regular 'past issues focused' counselling unsatisfactory, as although I did learn about myself, it didn't offer any solutions and I came out without feeling 'fixed'. The same is true when we went to marriage counselling about 4 years ago.

So, I have not mentioned that I think we should leave no stone unturned to try and reconcile and I have also not mentioned SBT style counselling and it's forward looking approach.

We purposely decided not to move out of this area during the kids secondary education to avoid turmoil (this happened to me, I had 3 different schools). I have also not mentioned how I think it would be much more damaging to the kids if we were to break up so they'd lose the family unit. She thinks they would be OK as 'we' would explain that they wouldn't be losing anyone, they'd still have a mother and father who loved them.

Maybe I could do with a vet's advice (no disrespect to everyone else, you know you're all wonderful) but I don't seem to get any on my thread.

Rats! One of the reasons I'm finding it really at the moment is that I have realised passive aggression has reasserted itself. I'm never far away from tears if I let my mind wander and my heart is aching something chronic. This can spiral out of control. It's not just grief about loss it's feeling sorry for yourself and wanting someone else to fix it for you.

I'm also finding it hard to get motivated. This is what passive aggression does. I'm waiting for something to happen, putting things off, making excuses to myself about getting started. Not all the time, but certainly some of the time.

I phoned a friend yesterday and offloaded and cried and was a mess. He was urging me to get out, don't come back home so often as it's making me miserable. I can see his point, but this is my family, my kids are here, my wife is here. I can't just run away. I need to face up to this and be the best I can be, but man when your own psyche tells you your not good enough, it's damned hard.

I am still managing to put on a brave face around the house, but I am quite rather than acting happy and feel really alone when one of my 5LL is quality time. I'm going to be alone for the next few days as well.

I was determined to kick this behaviour into touch. Watch for it and prevent it taking hold and it's crept up on me. Well I see you now, you scumbag. I have made a new to do list and I'm going to beat you. I don't want you in my life, you ruin everything.

Old dog-

I'm sorry to see you are having a rough time. I haven't read your entire sitch but just wanted to stop by. I am by no means an expert at all but just wanted to pop in a few things that have already been told to you but just thought I would reiterate them

My H recently has been trying to R for a little over a week. We have spent a TON of time talking about things. Do you know what helped him stop looking at me so angry or shutting me out? Me moving on. Me GAL. He said when I would come dressed up to our boys basketball games and pay him no attention he wondered where I was going, who I would be with, if I was seeing someone, why I was so happy and smiling and didn't ask him for months about working things out. He said I displayed myself so strong and independent and it made him want to know what I was doing. Funny right? If only he knew I was dying on the inside! Well for the first few months I was. Towards the end I had accepted what would be would be. I started to enjoy myself when I went out and did things with friends instead of going through the motions

So that is my advice to you. I know it has been only 2 months for you and it seems so soon and like an eternity at the same time. But trust me going dark she will notice. It will help you. Going dark will help you stop getting drug into an emotional response when it's something she has to say that you don't want to hear. H told me he would test me to see how I would react to things to see if I was putting on a show or not.

I hope this helps, best of luck to you

I hope things look up get out and do something.

Old Dog,

I am not a vet but I will tell you having that conversation with your W regarding your belief your M is not over and can be saved if you both work at it, even with a SBT will get you nowhere but on a backslide. Right now your W does NOT want to be in a relationship with you and nothing you say will change that. Period. The sooner you accept this the sooner you will be able to work on getting yourself in a better emotional state. The key is not convincing her to stay with words this week, but convincing her to reconsider her actions over a period of time through your actions. Think about it. Look at how you are around the house and how you act in front of her. Is this a man she would swoon over? Now GAL, show some PMA, and be mysterious. She WILL notice. Even if she does not show it right away, she WILL. And human nature will have her wondering just what has gotten into you. If you have done your 180s she will see this while her attention is shifted towards you.

It is not an overnight fix, but then again, there is not one. It took time for her to get to where she is, and it will take time for her to return. The best course of action for you is to be the guy she fell in love with all those years ago. She has to WANT to come back to you. And what people want most is what they cannot have. GAL with PMA just may pull that off for you.

Best of luck buddy

Thanks for dropping by. I know you're right. I was just having a bad time and if my passive aggressive script sees that, it jumps right in and has a whale of a time causing untold misery. It's so hard to fight it.

We had the first relationship conversation since week 1-2 last Thursday, which sparked off the recent slump in my PMA, in which my wife said she had noticed I had been trying hard but then reiterated saying she didn't want to build up any hope.

My DB coach, Chuck, advised me to act as if she is my sister which I will try and do to the best of my ability. It's easier if the kids are around, the elephant in the room doesn't like them it seems.

My fear is that she won't fall in love with 'the guy I was all those years ago' because she knows all my shortcomings and won't give me a chance. I can't allow myself to think of that. Long haul it is then.

I'm now in two minds over whether to tell my mum. It would upset her terribly which I'd obviously don't want to do, she's 84 after all, but is this an excuse I'm using to cling onto what I gave t got any more?

Old Dog, just wanted to say hello and give you some words of encouragement. I know things seem dark right now. But you need to focus on the future. I know this is easier said than done but I have faith in you!

Try to think of ways you can get out and make new friends and find some new activities. If at first you don't succeed, just keep plugging away. Join an exercise group, a photography group, whatever you like or have any tiny interest in. Maybe you could volunteer to help the needy or animals. You need to at least appear to be having a life of some kind. I know, believe me, that it hurts and the last thing you want to do is get out of the house away from your loved ones. But you MUST.

I used to travel for work 5 days/week. At the time I had a relationship and it started to fall apart and he wanted to split up. I recall telling him that we just weren't spending enough time together due to my work travels, but he said that wasn't the problem. I couldn't see how spending more time apart, splitting up, was going to solve our troubles. But I moved on and GAL and guess what? In a few weeks he was begging to get back together. I thought it could never work because we already only saw each other for a day or so per week. But GAL works!

Make GAL your focus and try not to worry too much about all the rest. This is key for you right now in my opinion.

Good luck! Hope the vets show up for some helpful hints soon! Hugs, LisaB

I'm sure your right Lisa. It's something I need to focus on. I have been saying I'm going to do this and that but haven't really made enough commitment and effort.

I got an reply from a yoga teacher today though, so tomorrow I will be enrolling in my first yoga class starting in early September, and I'm looking forward to it. The funny thing is, my wife, until recently used to work for a yoga governing body and none of the people there did yoga.

So my wife and kids arrived back late this afternoon. It was lovely to see them again, but ealier on I had noticed she had already written on the calender that she was planning meeting some of her friends again this evening for dinner. OK, another evening out then. But as she walked out the door she then told us she won't be back tonight but late tomorrow morning. This just keeps happening again and again: springing another surprise on me and it delivers a fresh wound each time.

What I have a hard time with is not the fact that she is making the effort to GAL herself, but that she is not telling me when it impacts my life and the kid's lives. For instance, we only have one car. If wanted to go somewhere tomorrow morning I'm now reliant on public transport which in rural England isn't very good.

It's as if she's deliberately trying to avoid me: I told her it felt like she was doing this when we spoke a week ago which she denied but here we are again. I'm afraid it's got my goat and now you get to hear of it.

Hate to hear about your recent troubles. Her GAL may just be her attempt to help detach from you. And yes, she may be trying to get away from you, for one or many reasons. Not all of those reasons have to be negative towards you, but more of something about her. But if you guys only have one car, and her GAL interferes with you and the kids, then something needs to be worked out. Otherwise, you can GAL before she does and dominate the car for a few days/weeks. Ok, maybe you should not play games like that. However if being stuck at home with no transportation is an issue, it should be addressed.

Yes, it should. Now there's another thing to address: conflict avaoidance. Ho hum.

I can add finances to the list of things to discuss as well now. I recently noticed her input into our joint bank account, from which we pay all our joint bills has been sod all this year. OK, the first part of the year she was only part time, but I reckon the ratio is approaching ten to one! If we were still a happy family, I wouldn't bat an eyelid, but now ... sheesh, talk about cake eating: it's a whole flippin' patisserie.

A quick summary of what I can remember of the conversation with WAW and I had just now.

She got up, got dressed and went out for about an hour. I don�t know where she went: too early to see a counsellor and I don�t know if she still sees one. Maybe just a walk to prepare for this conversation as when when she came back she started to talk about how we move forward. She is good at marshalling her thoughts: I am not so good.

She broached the subject of our house and what we should do with it. We both thought we should try and sell it. I will contact the tenants and arrange to go to see them and the house next weekend. Then we will get a few of valuations and perhaps offer the tenants first refusal. This would be good as no estate agents need be involved.

We discussed what we would do with the money and rather than say split it, she said we should buy somewhere else, transferring the mortgage. the nearby town was raised: it has advantages - nicer place, more things happening: but also disadvantages - further away, more expensive.

I then asked that if she had any plans like last Thursday, when she went out for the night taking the car, that she should tell me as I may have needed it. I validated her need to go out and have some fun and said I felt bad that she said that she had felt guilty about wanting to go away at the weekend when I returned home.

This the led on to a deeper conversation about our relationship sparked off by the communication issue and how I felt we had been bad at it especially in the last two and a half years. She reiterated her belief that it is over, that she had felt stifled for two and half years and need to be released. She needed to do her own thing and so did I and we wouldn�t necessarily both be at home at the same time at the weekend.

I said I was disappointed with her decision, she said it wasn�t a decision. I said I had read a lot recently and was trying to improve myself, be the best that I could be and had come across people who had been able to work on their relationships and save them. I said I was not looking to go back to the past, but move forward and I was doing the things I�m doing for me. I said I felt its never too late and asked her to be open to the suggestion that we should leave no stone unturned.

She said she does not want to work on it, she does not want to be in a relationship with me any more; it has run it�s course. She said she had said this to me before three months ago, given me time to grieve and get over it but is getting frustrated and irritated that I was clinging to some hope that she would change her mind. She said that it was indicative of our relationship that neither of us felt the need to communicate with each other whilst I had been working away from home.

I brought up the issue with the kids and that the fact that we wanted to keep them in the same school during their secondary education to avoid disruption, but I felt that this would be a worse thing to happen. She said they�re already partly used to it as I work away from home during the week. I said yes, but this is already a bad situation for them, I can tell, and it would be worse. We both agreed we need to do what�s best for them, but she said that if she was trapped and stifled, she would be a worse mother to them, she needs to be released.

She said it has been hard for her. She recognises this has hurt me but has given me three months to get over it and we now need to move on. She is struggling with her mother giving her guilt trips over not being a good enough mother to S14 (he needs to go to hospital for an issue) and she doesn�t need me glowering at her. I said I�m sorry, I didn�t realise I was glowering to which she replied, well staring intently then: I thought I was just focusing on what she was saying.

Throughout all this I stayed calm, listened to what she said, tried to put my point of view, checked my emotions were restrained and didn�t raise my voice at all. There were a few pauses whilst I tried to collect my thoughts, but I tried to stay focused and keep a PMA. All to no avail.

I read other people�s situations and see how much worse off theirs is compared to mine and then I read DB or 5LL or some other book and have hope that we can work it out, but she is just not willing to try at all: she is so resolute, it feels hopeless. I don�t want to give in, she was my soulmate and could be again. Oh, I have to stop now - welling up.

I guess I go back to loving detachment, act like she�s my sister, work on self improvement, be strong, try and get a life - this will be the hardest when I eventually move back home as I only know now person where we live; and he�s just come out of hospital so is out of action for a while.

And wait.

Hope can be a gd and bad think old dog but you still gotta have it. Otherwise why put yourself through everything the way you are. I think you really can't do much more than you're doing so make your you detach and GAL.
I'm concerned my sitch may go the way your last convo went ie giving my WAW time but if we bring up R she'll say the same things. My thoughts are with you my friend!

Old Dog, I'm sorry. I can hear your pain. FWIW it sounds like you did a fantastic job keeping your cool and getting your thoughts together for this conversation, hard as it would have been. Hang in there. I think you'll find yoga very useful.

(Not so) Old Dog, I'm sorry. I have nothing to add, I just want you to know that I'm following your writings and I know the pain that you are in. Stay strong.

Hi Old Dog,

I hate this for you. I was thinking about your comment that your situation is not as bad as some others. I'm not so sure. My H walked out abruptly, turned into a stranger overnight and I just caught him in another whopper of a lie regarding our kids. I think in someways its actually easier to feel like the WS has snapped or gone temporarily insane because for the most part there's no where to go but up. After the shock wears off, it certainly makes it easier to detach as well. A situation like yours, where there's lots of civility and a fair amount of contact seems like it would be a long slow burn and would take a lot longer to resolve, one way or the other. So I don't think there's anything "better" about what you're going through (although it does seem like it would be a little better for the kids).

Thinking of you!

Thank you everyone for your empathy. Here's little bit more of today's story for you.

A little later on in the day I really got in touch with my emotions. After a spot of unstoppable grief shut away in the bathroom, I began to feel real anger. WAW and S12 had gone out, S14 was upstairs out of earshot when back in the kitchen, I caught sight of the 'present' she had bought for the boys to give to me on father's day.

I don't hold with father's day anyway, but this was a glass jar labelled 'adventures with dad'. It had a few cards in, some prefilled and some you write yourself. When I first received it, shortly after bomb day, it felt like a stab through the heart then: 'here you are, go off and enjoy yourselves ... on your own'.

It made a pleasing sound as I hurled it with all my might onto the stone kitchen floor.

Well worth the 20 minutes it took clearing up millions of shards of glass. I finished just in time before WAW and S12 returned.

Shortly after, I took the yard broom back to the shed and passed WAW seemingly deep in thought on the little wall outside the back door. I've seen her sitting there before thinking about things (I presume). As I passed I casually asked 'thinking about our marriage vows?' and went inside. Agh! Did I say that aloud. Yes, I did. I'm angry aren't I? Yes I am, I can't stay here right now.

I got a few things together and as she came back into the kitchen and said 'no actally', I replied 'no, didn't think so. I'm off to my mum's as I don't feel so good'.

Listened to my mindfulness podcast on the way and ranted at the speaker and spent the rest of the day at my mum's feeling utterly defeated.

I'm back at home now and apoligised for my snide comment. Infuriatingly she was very calm and said it's expected, you were angry. We never really had huge rows: disagreements yes, sometimes heated, but not huge rows. I don't know if I want a huge row now or not. Probably not: counter productive I think but I hate what she has done. Hate! Still angry bah!

And to cap it all, she usually hides away upstairs texting or reading and falling asleep on the bed while I'm downstairs on my own. This evening, I actually want to watch something on TV and she's decided to sit on the sofa and fall asleep there instead.

This past three months has been the worst time of my life and today has been one of the worst days of that period.

Onwards and upwards my fellow DBers. It's a long hard slog to who knows where. Put me down for extra detachment lessons. I think something in my psyche has shifted today.

(Not so) Old Dog xx

Old Dog, hate to hear about your day, and completely understand. Yea, you really do need to work on detaching and GAL. I know it is hard to detach when living together, and as much as I like to tout my own detachment, I do not think I could have done it while under the same roof. GAL is probably difficult as well but you HAVE to do it. It will do WONDERS for your mind and emotions. It will also help prevent outbursts like today. You need a place to vent those emotions building up inside you in a positive manner. Otherwise the only outlet you have is with your W, and as you know, that will do you no good.

Keep at it buddy, I know you can do it.

Originally Posted By: raliced

Hi Old Dog,

I hate this for you. I was thinking about your comment that your situation is not as bad as some others. I'm not so sure. My H walked out abruptly, turned into a stranger overnight and I just caught him in another whopper of a lie regarding our kids. I think in someways its actually easier to feel like the WS has snapped or gone temporarily insane because for the most part there's no where to go but up. After the shock wears off, it certainly makes it easier to detach as well. A situation like yours, where there's lots of civility and a fair amount of contact seems like it would be a long slow burn and would take a lot longer to resolve, one way or the other. So I don't think there's anything "better" about what you're going through (although it does seem like it would be a little better for the kids).

Thinking of you!

I think your right raliced. It feels like I'm heading for a long slow death. In theory, my situation is good. Classic WAW syndrome, but I'm still around to demonstrate the loving detachment and change etc. But at the moment, I do feel it will be in vain as far as reconciliation is concerned. The blinkers are well and truly stuck on.

What makes you feel so hopeless? Even if things get worse before they get better doesn't mean they can't get better.

Maybell, you're right of course, and as I mentioned, I think something has shifted in my psyche and just maybe I'll be able to learn to detach a little better, not have any expectations and ride it out.

The devil on your shoulder is the guy that says it's hopeless. He has a loud voice.

He does. But it seems to me that the loudest shouting is generally for the poorest arguments.

What are you doing to GAL today?

He does. But it seems to me that the loudest shouting is generally for the poorest arguments. smile

Darn right!

I was hoping to watch la Vuelta d'Espanya but WAW is in front of the TV - it's 10pm here in Blighty now. Not very ambitious i know. I spent most of the day at my mum's.

GAL at home is difficult as I only lived in this small town for two months before toddling off to work 180 miles away. I only know one person here and he's just had an op for two slipped discs. I went to visit him the other day though - took him some flowers (rockin' that feminine side :-) - so it's more of a support thing than GAL.

I did find out about a Kempo Jujitsu class in the city 30 mins away on Saturday afternoons I may go to. The only thing about that though is that it'll break the day up.

Breaking the day up can be a good thing.

I live in a smallish town too but we have a wine shop that offers classes and other events. The public library has book clubs and speakers. School & sports events for the kids always welcome volunteers and it's easy to get to know people that way.

It's harder to GAL before you know people but totally possible. You just have to get the nerve to do it. I only lived in this town a couple of months before bomb drop and I've found a ton of things to do, sometimes just from web searches. Get your head around it, you'll feel so much better.

Yes, you're right. I just need to find something.

I thought I might try and find somewhere to teach me about cooking because I hate it and I may need to become better at it you know. But I'm a veggie, and I still hate it ;-)

Hate is probably too strong a word but I thought it was funny.

I also only get here Friday evening at 8pm (if my wife still considers it worth picking me up from the train station, 9pm if not) and leave for work again at 4pm on Sunday afternoon.

Not much time to have fun and be with the kids and tidy up the mess that they all leave - maybe I should just leave the mess.

None of this sounds positive does it. I know you're trying to help. I don't want to be Mr Negativity, that's a 180. Woohoo!

Mind you I never thought I was Mr Negativity anyway. At heart I'm a happy person and my glass has a measured 50% of water in it.

Leave the mess, it isn't yours!

Can't you GAL where you work? If you took a weeknight cooking class you could still practice cooking on the weekends.

2x4: quit making excuses and go make your life better. You're worth it.

Donk!

Ouch! That 2x4 was made up of pure procrastinadium.

Yup, gonna do some GAL at my work home. I live with two lovely people who run AA & NA groups. I asked if I could go along to one.

I've also signed up for yoga and I contacted a guitar teacher about improving my axe wielding.

THAT sounds like some good GALing.

Well done, Old Dog!

The AA and NA groups are interesting actually...My IC thinks that affairs are essentially another addiction. I've been interested in going to a meeting or two, but have been steered away by the AA folks who don't want me unless I have an alcoholic to deal with. (I get it, but I still think it could be valuable!)

I brought up the finances issue this morning. How this year she had paid very little into our joint account, missing five months including nothing in the past three months.

I said I had always trusted her implicitly but felt like I was beginning to feel like a mug. She has been going off at weekends visiting friends, having girls nights out, took the kids abroad for a long weekend, buying new shoes and clothes. She got very irritated at this and went on the attack, taking issue with my saying I felt like a mug and saying she has had a lot of bills to pay recently and ended up saying OK you�re right then we should document everything as you don�t trust me any more. This took me by surprise.

I said there was no need to document everything, I understood you had bills, I do trust you and maybe my wording was a bit too strong. I said I wanted to bring this out into the open so as not to harbour any resentment as I don�t want to do that. I said we have always paid money into our joint account to pay joint bills such as a lot of these were.

She explained that with me asking if she was thinking about our marriage vows yesterday and her mum getting on at her for being a bad parent to S14 in her eyes, she is feeling got at. She said she is finding it very hard at the moment, thinking about S14�s problem (for which we have a hospital appointment) and how we are to move forward.

I said I didn�t want to tiptoe round the house walking on eggshells and this was an attempt to try and improve communication between us, reduce the tension and get on together. I said I wanted to bring this out into the open rather than harbouring any resentment and told her it was quite a big thing for me to do something like this. And its true, it has solved that issue, so I think I got away with it.

In the middle of the conversation we diverged a little onto our past relationship. I was disappointed she now wouldn�t try to work on it now that I know how to have a go at it. She said had tried to to tell me before to which I said yes, you did but I didn�t know what to do I didn�t have a manual, I don�t know how to work on our marriage. I said I could always talk to you about anything and everything you are - were, she corrected - my soul mate. And then she said we were never soul mates, there were just too many differences. I said that didn�t matter, everyone has differences. I�m really sad and frustrated she won�t do this, but I need to shut up about that now.

Maybe I should have thought about what her reaction might have been, but that�s not like me, I was caught up in my own world of analysis. This was quite a big step for me (a 180) to take as I tend conflict wherever possible. I was lying in bed this morning wondering what to say and having a mild panic attack about whether I could come out with it. in the end I didn�t say half of what was going on in my head, which was a good thing as it wouldn�t have helped and probably made matters worse.

She then broached the subject of how were going to move on. Whether I want to live with them in the future but on the understanding that I should have no illusions or hope that any of my improvements will make any difference what so ever to her decision to end our relationship. I said yes I want to stay with my kids: I have missed them and they�ve missed me for the last two and half years and they need me. She also wants to tell the kids saying they will still have their mother and their father but this is how it�s going to be from now on.

Well sorry love, I still have hope, but expectations are dwindling fast. I will go back to acting as if she is my sister. Next weekend we�ll be seeing the tenants in the house we own to tell them we want to sell. If we can be civil to each other, and I'll give it my best shot, we will buy another house where were living now or in the bigger town nearby. I expect we�ll have separate bedrooms then.

Old Dog, you shouldn't have any expectations, remember?

It really doesn't matter if she wants to work on it or not. You can move her without her realizing it just by making your 180s to be healthier and more like the person you want to be, GAL (I'm beating that horse, aren't i??) and giving her space. Job posted a book recommendation, The Solo Partner, on the MLC page that you might want to check out.

I SO wouldn't buy a new house together. While you might be willing to live like roommates at the moment, that's not a viable long term situation. You can have access to your kids without living wight your W. Especially if you succeed in finding a more local job.

I feel like you're letting her run over you. Have you been hearing from Mr.Bond or Starsky? You need heir input. Another book (usually applicable to infidelity situations but maybe helpful for you too) that might help is titled so ring like No More Mr. nice Guy. Apologies if that's already been recommended to you.

I'm pulling for you, not-so Old Dog.

No I don't have any expectations. She's made that perfectly clear. Not sure why I wrote that.

I feel I have turned some corner though and want to get on and GAL, change up, get positive, kick some bad negative habits etc. I haven't heard of the Sole Partner book, I'll check it our. Thanks for the nod. I've started to have a quick look on the MLC page recently. I'll have to spend a bit more time checking it out.

I've been a weekend dad for two and hard years now though and it's really not good. They miss me, especially S12, I miss them and now S14 really needs both parents as he's having problems at school.

I hear what you're saying about the house. If we sell up and split the money, neither of us can afford to buy anything other than the smallest pokiest hovel in town. If we transfer the mortgage, we'll keep the good rate we're on. It's a big decision though. My DB coach has advised me to act as if she's my sister, so I figured I'll go along with that, keep on working and if it doesn't work in a year, 2 years, who knows but there will no more relationship talk.

Mr Bond was here early on in my story, but I have had a vet here for ages. I'll have a look for No More Mr Nice Guy as well. I am Mr Nice though so that would be a MAJOR 180.

Thanks for your kind words Maybell, I find your story inspiring.

(Not so ) Old Dog xx

Hi Old Dog, I just wanted to say hello and echo what Maybell has been saying. The best thing you can do is focus on yourself and get out there and GAL. Looks like you are taking steps toward that, great!

It will really help you to take your head out of this mucky crappy situation you are in and enjoy life a bit more. You deserve it!

You sound like a really kind and wonderful person. Your W has to go on her journey now. Go along on yours too and I think it's possible you can both meet up when the roads converge. Right now there is nothing you can say or do that will make her wake up and see how terrific you are. Baby steps right now.

Good luck Old Dog! You are doing great!
Hugs, Lisa

I have finally come to realise this. I knew it all along of course but something (below) was blocking the process. I think I have come to terms with it and am ready to get to work properly rather than just talk and pay lip service to it.

The passive aggressive at play is not a pretty sight. I told myself early on in the game that I don't want to play that game anymore but it is hard to shift. I can recognise some traits early and correct them but some others creep up on you.

I am a wonderful person and now I'm even better having read so much about relationships on here and books. Did you spot the PMA there?

In a years time women should be queuing up for a slice of that nice action I reckon.

I keep saying thank you to people turning up to support me, but I really do mean it. I wish I could meet you all and give you a hug. I'm not so good at imparting such wisdom to others but at least I can offer encouragement every now and then.

(Not so) Old Dog xx

This also means I'm feeling like it's week one again.

I was extremely saddened to have to leave home yesterday to come back to work. I cried a little (in private) on the train.

My flatmates always bring me round and did so again when I arrived at the work flat. Unfortunately, they're going to be away all wek so I'm on my own again.

I spoke to one of them about the house plan and she advised to wait as I'm obviously not in a fit state of mind to decide something major like that.

I could do it if I'm detached: I have great staying power and can put up with a lot. I put up with WAW withdrawing emotional support since last November. OK, I was also stupid enough to play my pathetic games as well, but I can wait until the cows come home. But I'm not detached, so it wouldn't be such a good idea.

Being at work was hard today. It's never far from my mind and the constant ache in my heart never lets me forget. Held it together in the office and told them about my juror experiences last week, but I felt really low all day.

Tomorrow is a forced GAL day. Some of us from work are spending the day doing charity work at a nearby farm. I'm really lookingforward to it and it looks like it might even be a nice day.

Today's 3 positives:

I have ordered No More Mr Nice Guy & am just about to win The Passion Trap on eBay (no sniping now you lot)
I have discovered Marriage Advocates & Marriage Builders websites
I am still alive, fit & healthy, much leaner now due to my WAW crash diet

Hi Old Dog! You are terrific! You seem so kind and nice. It sounds like tomorrow will be a good day for you, something different.

Keep looking forward into the future, plan some fun activities that you can get excited about. And don't worry too much about those sad moments. We all have them so just experience them and know you will feel crappy at times and better at times. Soon you will be feeling more better times and fewer crappy times.

Sometimes I am happy as a lark and sometimes sad, and often I can't even really tell what made me suddenly sad or upset. I am trying to roll with it and know that the sad moments also pass.

Being alive, fit and healthy sounds super amazing! Keep up the good work Mr Dog!
Big hug to you, LisaB

Positive update

Lisa says I'm terrific :-)
I did 'win' The Passion Trap for 99p + P&P
And I'm going to try some of the positivity tips in Feel the fear and do it anyway

Oh, and one more.

My wonderfully supportive flatmates had to go away for the week, but they left me a whole chocolate cake to cheer me up.

Old Dog - I never have too much to add to other's threads, but I do find a lot of inspirational things that I hear from you. Keep your spirits up. Sounds like it's a new perspective for a new day.

chocolate cake always helps too.

Happy Labour Day?

Thanks u-turn. I find my spirits are up and down like a ... rollercoaster. Has anyone used this analogy before? :-)

Gradually pulling up that climb again.

haha we should come up with a new analogy!

Yummy, chocolate cake sounds good!

My positives for today

I spent a really enjoyable day with work colleagues at a care farm project for people with learning difficulties. We hauled logs, skinned/stripped bark, burnt brush and I taught my colleagues how to catch and hold a chicken (what a skill :-). I was the oldest there and I think I left quite an impression on some of them. I worked hard all day. I was at the forefront of any activity we did and was more than handy with an axe and a sickle.
I got back early enough to nip down the bike shop and buy a new mudguard. Always difficult when you work the same hours as they do and you can't get there in your lunch break.
I had a nice soak in the bath when I got back to ease my not so aching joints: I must be so fit :-) We'll see how they are tomorrow though.
I phoned home and was thanked my WAW for posting something to me that I had forgotten to bring with me. I also expressed my joy at the family iPad being found. She and the kids thought they had lost it on their extended weekend trip. Turned out S14 had hidden it in his bedroom to play with after lights out and forgot about it.
I also spoke to S14 about having a positive can do attitude when he goes back to school tomorrow and to help WAW, not hinder her when she is trying to get his act in gear.
And now I'm off to bed early.

Yeah old dog, there is huge therapy in being a pyromaniac I've done it a few times this winter.

Oh and nothing like buying new clothes to make you feel good!

even if it is jeans that make you walk funny, talk about acting "as if" my thread will fill you in.

Hey GG, sorry your having such a hard time. I'm sorry all of us are. Just watching a fire is fascinating, although we were all so busy yesterday, we didn't do much of that.

I've bought a couple of pairs of jeans using the advice from a friend. Apparently what I needed to be fashionable is selvedge jeans, so now I'm quite a dandy ... apart from the fact that all my clothes now hang off me as I've lost so much weight :-)

It's also happy shirt Wednesday and I'm going to be rockin' my new coourful stripey shirt at work today.

Stil awake a 5am though thinking not quite as positively as I'd like. Managed not to drench the pillow this time but 'coming back to the breath' every now and then.

I was just sitting waitng for the shower at work after cycling in, and I felt a little low so I was trying to think of something positive rather than get caught up in it.

I thought of the day I spent helping out at the charity farm yesterday which I enjoyed when I suddenly realised that throughtout the whole day I was hoping someone would notice my hard work and say what a good job you are doing.

I did say I thought I'd left an impression on them in a post above, but now I remember actually thinking it during the day. I did get a compliment from one of my colleagues when I hauled some logs into a better position to skin them and really set work on them. She asked if I'd done this before and thought I was a natural.

Maybe I should bump up words of affirmation as one of my LL. Now I have realised this, I realise I've always done it.

My self discovery journey continues.

(Not so) Old Dog xx

PS Rockin' a mega happy shirt today. Let's just see who comments on it when I go into the office. Fishing for compliments again see.

Old Dog you sound positive! I'm happy to hear it!!! Keep up the great work!

Big hugs, LisaB

Old dog, the journey is up and down.

Last night sobbing same as you after med, but tonight, man! Omg so much good today. It's amazing.

Positive, negative, positive, negative, positive, negative. STOP NOW!

I keep thinking especially when I wake up at night, about WAW's analogy (which she repeated lst weekend) about a car that never had it's oil changed, and how one day it'll stop working never to go again.

Or in other words, how her love tank was slowly drained and not topped up.

There are mechanics who know how to fix cars and there are marriage counsellors who can fix broken marriages but she wont consider it. It is so unfair.

But enough of that. Continuing with my recent postive posts theme:

Today I took part in a mass 'ice' bucket challenge with colleages from my company. The ice is in quotes as we didn't have any, but that doesn't really matter, it's making the effort and contribting that counts.
My friend phoned up to see how a I was. Last time I spoke to him was during one of the worst times and he urged me to spend more time away. Those times will probably return periodically, but I feel I must face up to them as well rather than run away.
I'm up to date with La Vuelta. It's huge pity that Quitana has had to pull out .. and Morobito too although he wasn't a GC contender.
I had an exta hour's sleep last night after going to bed at 11pm instead of my customary midnight. I meant to do it again tonight but I'm 15 mins late already. This is always happening.

Your wife has a good analogy going with the car there - I would just argue that the car will in fact go again - you just have to rebuild the engine!

Originally Posted By: raliced

Your wife has a good analogy going with the car there - I would just argue that the car will in fact go again - you just have to rebuild the engine!

And that's a lot more work than getting a new car BUT the sense of accomplishment of finding all the parts that don't work, replacing them and putting it all back together piece by piece is totally worth it.

Great analogy!

It's such a pity she want to scrap it. It makes me feel sad, bitter, hopeful, hopeless, angry, determined and many more emotions.

And to think our poor litle car is so battered and bruised because she keeps bumping into things. Luckily all her mishaps are at low speed - well apart from the 4 speeding fines I think she's up to now.

The 2am blues are here.

Sleeeeeeep ... pleeeeeease. I'm trying to focus on the breath - well: when I'm not venting on here. Time to have another go.

My yoga teacher used to have us intentionally scrunch up our bodies head to toes, and then carefully go through each part unclench ing and breathing light into the newly opened space. Hopefully you've put away your bright little screen and are settling into sleep, but on the off-chance you're not....

Sweet dreams.

I did put away my bright little screen and did get some more sleep thanks Maybell. Not the best sleep, woke several times but managed to stay in bed until 10 mins before the alarm went off.

I'm starting yoga on Monday - least ways, I think I am, I've sent the money but not had confirmation yet. I'll have to chase that. I've never done it before and I'm really looking forward to it ... as long as I don't have to wrap my legs around the back of my head on the first day.

Today's positives

I managed to get an iteration of the company's website out the door today. It's getting harder each time. We're supposed to be agile, but I think they just missed the 'fr' off the front of the word. I think I just ruined that positive item.
I went to see my counsellor and although it was my last session with her (company insurance rules) I came out feeling better able to cope again.
My wife actually called me ... on the phone ... and spoke to me. OK it was about logistical stuff tomorrow, but I managed to get in a bit of chat. She must be reading the same manual about hanging up first though, although to be fair I think it was bedtime for the boys soon.
Today was national cycle to work day in merry England. I didn't know until I found a queue at the shower. It was good to see more people trying it out.

I have a car analogy, too, since my H is a car nut. I told him that this has felt like he took his race car which requires high octane gas and put either regular or diesel in it. Killed the engine right dead.

But - I agree that the engine can be rebuilt. Hey - rebuilds sometimes make the engine stronger! Woo!

Cycle to work day! How fun!

Enjoy yoga. Give it a few classes. I found the first one incredibly intimidating, but over time it has come to be a real safe haven for me. Oh - and I've gotten really strong doing it, too, which is a nice bonus!

Originally Posted By: MLP

But - I agree that the engine can be rebuilt. Hey - rebuilds sometimes make the engine stronger! Woo!

Oh yeah! Upgrade those components.

Oh FFS!

WAW's best friend posted a pic on facebook of some flowers her husband bought her saying he's not one for doing this sort of thing and it cheered her up on crappy day.

WAW posted a message saying 'good lad'.

How about your own husband then? Have you forgotten everything I did for you in the past 21 years? I think quite possibly.

Vent vent. Grrrr! How does this detaching thing work? I can't get the hang of it.

OK calm down. She 'liked' my ice bucket challenge pic - only liked though, didn't comment.

There is way too much mind reading in FB posts - I have to stop myself from looking there too because all of our inter-meshed friends won't let me escape seeing what she has liked or commented on.

Detaching is so hard when you just want to be able to fix the things you can see now.

I heard "keep on keeping on" from a co-worker yesterday - thought of you.

Keep on Truckin'

It's kinda difficult to find a positive today. S14 will have to undergo major surgery in a few months we learned today.

Listing half a day off work doesn't really make me feel positive.

The complaint is irreversible. The surgery will artificially correct it but leave some metal work behind for the rest of his life. I guess the 'correct it' bit is positive and there are testimonials we read from others who lead normal lives afterwards.

It's certainly better than doing nothing and as we're in the UK, it costs us nothing thanks to our National Health Service instead of �80,000 to go private.

WAW said, while bolstering him up, that he will be fine as he has the same fortitude as she does and compared childbirth and how she nailed it. He is taking it in his stride at the moment. Really brave.

Now for the selfish bit. I didn't really want hear how she has such fortitude and resolution. I know that. It's one of the things I found attractive in her, and one of the things that will stand in the way of ever rekindling our relationship.

Bah! Why am I surprised by this sort of thing.

We're in the living room. Im trying to get the internet TV working so we can all watch Dr Who but the gadget had packed up. There's some sort of quiz nearing the end, it just so happens to be on that TV channel. I notice there's a comedy programme with one her favourite comedians on the other side starting in a minute, I inform WAW who wants to see the conclusion of the quiz first. No problem.

When the time comes, I turn the channel over. She gets up and goes out of the room and upstairs. I pause the programme waiting for her to come back down. After about 10 mins of waiting she still hasn't appeared so I record it and watch something else I recorded earlier.

I just finished watching it went upstairs and she's gone to bed. Not a word. Just went to bed.

Earlier in the day I was in the garden clearing up a massive pile of branches and leaves. WAW asks if I'd like a drink so I say yes and she makes me a coffee and brings it outside to where we then sit and drink. We dont have anything to say to each other. I can't think of a single thing.

How sad is that? My mind is completely numb from this experience.

My big positive for the day is that I know S14 will be in the best possible hands when he comes to have his op. It's sad that he has to have it, but when it's done he will be able to live his life without really noticing the metalwork in his frame.

I think not being able to think of anything to say is the hardest part. Too many subjects seem inconsequential or off limits.

Best wishes for your son.

You're right Maybell. I really miss talking with my wife. And thank you.

I really miss physical contact as well. I was desperate for a snuggle last night but knew I couldn't have one. I turned over once and accidentally brushed her arm. She immediately turned over to the other side of the bed. I used to give her a shoulder, back or even all over massage quite frequently. She went to have a massage yesterday morning complaining of aches and pains, putting it down to getting older. Hello! You could get one of those for free every weekend if you could see sense lady. I could even learn to do it properly although I think I was still pretty good at it. Used to imagine what I would like and do that.

Physical touch is one of my primary love languages I think but she never wanted to reciprocate and when I did ask it was always half hearted: nothing like the quality or time spent on her.

OK let's have a positive. Late yesterday afternoon I suggested we go to the pub in the evening. S14 had gone to a friends for the night and S12 could come with us. After a brief discussion between the three of us we went to the local Indian restaurant where S12 had his first Indian meal. We all had a lovely time and chatted throughout. I am of course ware that we were using him as a conduit: most of the conversation was centred around S12, but it was so good to have a 'normal' conversation and take an interest in his new school year. WAW also said it made her forget about S14's operation for a while.

I see us talking about the kids a lot more to each other, especially when they are in front of us. It does give us something to talk about, gets us off of each other, and the kids like the attention.

It does seem like sometimes we are trying to out super-parent each other. W is on a baking kick for the kids. I think it's a positive thing, and I think the kids deserve it. I pull back when they seem to be smothered by it though and let their mom take the lead and credit(I've been doing it all for a while now and it's good to see that she's interested). Maybe it will help her fog clear a little (maybe not).

wishing your son well.

Thanks for your wishes u-turn.

I have a couple of things to report.

I have an interview for a job back home on Friday. I have to fill in a application form tomorrow. It's quite an unusual one: more like some of the questions you'd expect during the interview itself. I've been thinking and writing notes for it this evening.

And, I went to my first yoga class today.

How did you like yoga???

And good luck with the job!

Yoga was good thanks. Relaxing.

I managed to fill out the application form just now. One advantage to waking up early I suppose.

I did something try and help myself today.

I registered as a temporary patient in the town where I work and went to see a doctor there.

I explained my situation and came away with:

two weeks supply of anti-depressants - I was hesitant at first, but then tought why not I'm here for help
a referal for CBT counselling to be arranged - my previous counsellor cannot see me again due to the rules of the work benefit agreement
details of a local mindfllness group session each Wednesday evening
another appointment in two weeks time.

I call that a result.

I went to my first mindfullness group session after work today. There must have been almost 20 people there, all of whom were regulars.

I took part and volunteered my experience - which is not something I'd normally do - when we followed a 'story' and imagined a walk in a forest picking up symbolic items, although we didn't know that at the time.

Back at home to go to an interview. Not having very good sleep doesn't help. It seems like every half hour I woke up: and half of those, she was stirring also. And when you're half awake, just lying there, your mind is able to go crazy: imagining all sorts of ridiculous scenarios. Luckily, I am now aware of mindfulness and 'come back to the breath' ... for a while at least.

Once, it must have been around a year a half ago now, she told me she slept better when I was at home. Now, we share the bed with an elephant.

Wow, that's one big bed you have old dog if it really can hold and elephant!

I'm sorry you're in this place. Better days are coming. Good luck on your interview.

Good luck at the interview Old Dog! And I know what you mean about those sleepless nights, try to push through!
Hugs, Lisa

Thanks everyone. Trying to psyche myself up for it.

Being at home though is such a draining experience. The friends of ours who WAW and kids visited about a month ago just announced on facebook they got married in secret - like we did - and WAW has posted congratulations.

Why can't she tell me this news? Why can't she talk to me? Why does she scuttle off somewhere else when I'm around? And why does it always seem she is so short with me? How is this helping the situation?

Oh and why and who is she contantly texting? I'm pretty sure there isn't an OM, but it I feel completely excluded now.

Well I didn't get the job. They had two posts either side if my experience / skillset. When they called I hoped they would have relaxed one set of criteria or or be prepared to go for a higher grade on the other. In the end it looks like I wasted a precious day off. Bah!

On a positive note, I went to a gig with S14 the same night. W and S12 didn't want to go, but I decided I would go anyway and then S14 said he'd like to come and we enjoyed it. However, right at the end I nearly fainted. For some reason, my body got really hot even though there weren't that many there, and I had to go and sit down at the back. I had S14 get me some water and then we went home. I have now realised that I have been feeling slightly dizzy quite often recently. I'll have to speak to the doc about that next time I see her.

Yesterday we all went out and had an enjoyable time at the space centre but on the journey there was an opportunity to start the day on a sour note.

I checked the route there before we set off but on the way there I was presented with an unexpected junction and didn't know which way to go. I guessed wrong and realised fairly quickly, but being a man driving a car, it's hard to admit to mistakes. W suggested the satnav, so I got it out but couldn't program it as I didn't know the postcode/zip code. I got a little frustrated, but actually recognised this and pulled back. W then managed to find the postcode and get the thing working as I finally recognised where we now were and I thanked her for doing that. Oh and I braked too late for her comfort once which I also apologised for.

Not such a riveting story but it might have, in the past, ended up in a stupid argument about inappropriate anger and justifiable frustration. I feel pleased that it didn't and we could enjoy the day.

I even had a better nights sleep. I long to hold her though and shed a few tears when she got up grabbed her phone and went downstairs.

Talking of her phone, she just can't put it down. On the way back yesterday, she litterally picked it up every two minutes to check on something. I know her football club was playing at the time but it's not just that, there seem to be massive conversations going to and fro and I've no idea about any of them as she doesn't tell me. I know: detach, but crickey it's hard not to ask.

One thing she did let out of the bag though was that she told the kids, not me mind but as I just happened to be there I heard, that she'd phoned her best friend in America this week. So now her friend knows and I guess her husband, who was a friend of mine before we all met, will know as well. And to further complicate matters, I've arranged to go with this friends brother (who is also a friend) to visit another old friend next weekend. Does that make sense?

It's all beginning to come out.

Hi Old Dog,
Good for you on the 180 in the car!

Sorry to hear about the phone frustrations. I get that. My H is always checking his phone too. I think he has always done that but now after BD every time he looks at it of course I think OW. Even though that is probably not the case. Also he does it while I am speaking to him. Does your W do that? I find it incredibly rude. I have been testing out stopping speaking when he looks at his phone. I think he looks at it unconsciously... or maybe trying to send a message? Who knows. I get your frustration!

I hope you have a better day today! Sorry about feeling dizzy. Are you eating enough?

Hugs, Lisa

Originally Posted By: LisaB

... now after BD every time he looks at it of course I think OW. Even though that is probably not the case. Also he does it while I am speaking to him. Does your W do that? I find it incredibly rude.

I hope you have a better day today! Sorry about feeling dizzy. Are you eating enough?

Hugs, Lisa

Hi Lisa

I'm sure she was checking football scores yesterday - they lost. A bit of a surprise there. And the other times I'm sure it's just friends and family she is texting.

It is incredibly rude Lisa. At least my W recognises the importance of listening to someone when they are speaking. In fact she used to pull me up on not replying immediately to the kids if they asked a question thinking I was ignoring them. I never was, and told her so, just contemplating the answer, but obviously not quick enough in her eyes.

Eating. Maybe not. That's what I thought as well. I'm not losing any more weight though. Stayed the same for the last few weeks now.

I hope you're doing well. I've been absent from the forum for a couple of days.

Returning some hugs to you. (((Lisa)))

(Not so) Old Dog xx

My wife just had to make sure I didn't have any false hopes about our nice day yesterday. While she conceded that we all had a good time, I need to understand that she cannot be expected to always be there or come with us.

She asked if I had any plans today and then said she needs to get away on her own today for some 'me time' and she needs to do that every weekend at some point: she can't be there always on call 24/7. I validated, and even touched her foot in an affectionate way, saying I understood and asked what she might do, go to the shops perhaps? Yes, there are a few things that we need, and she might visit a friend. At least she asked if I had plans and then told me rather than just take off which is something a I brought up a few weeks ago.

She also mentioned my plan to go and visit friends next weekend and is glad I'm going. I said I was as well, it's some 'me time' for me but also I felt bad that I won't be here: that my time here is valuable to me as I'm away for most of the week.

A couple of weeks ago, my sister in law said they were thinking of taking my mum on a weekend break, as she hasn't had a holiday this year, and we would be welcome to come as well. This was before they knew of our situation. My W thinks this would be nice for me and the kids, but she wants to be released from having to go. She feels it wouldn't feel right and be awkward I suppose.

Well that brought me back down to earth with a bump. Not that I'd got off the ground anyway.