I've started a new thread as this one was getting long. (I hope this works)
Link to old thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2474180#Post2474180Thank you
everyone for your ear, mind, and voice.
Here goes another evening of acting as if. At least it keeps the kids happy. Make dinner, eat dinner, clean dinner, off to separate corners. I've been getting out in the evening (little things like biking or walking the dog. Not social things but it's good to get out of the house.
Last night it was similar. W will tell me about work, I listen, say uh huh and oh really (but really do listen). She doesn't ask me anything about anything. But I guess it's cordial and we are not fighting or completely giving each other the cold shoulder. Sometimes my impatience gets to me and I feel like this could could go on forever this way. It's hard not to wonder what's going on in that head.
The not asking anything about anything is totally mind boggling, isn't it?
No advice, I just totally recognize that.
The not asking anything about anything is totally mind boggling, isn't it?
Been there done that.
I think I can count the number of questions she asked me in the last 5 months on 2 hands. She doesn't seem to really want to know anything about how I feel. But that could be because I was telling her anyway.
Well not now - no pursuing. no expectations.
How about this one though. The other day I got an e-mail from W asking if I would be open to going to her bosses vacation cottage for the day sometime in August. I said I would be open to it. Then she says that OM was invited by the boss too (and probably OMW too.)
I don't think I can handle that, but don't think I should stay away. It will probably be the most awkward thing that has ever happened to me.
Thoughts?
Ouch U-turn! But I am a little confused. Did W ask you if you if you would be open to going with her to boss' vacation cottage? Don't you think this should be a boundary for you that will not be in the same spot while OM is there? It would be torture for me, but I'm not walking in your shoes. You have to draw your own boundaries though.
Hi u-turn. Just checking in on your sitch.
I get how hard it is not to know what's going on in their head. I don't remember the context of the conversation (it wasn't about R), but I made a remark about trying to figure out what H was thinking. He told me I didn't want to be inside his head ... that it was a scary place.
Not asking anything about anything makes you feel as though you don't quite know what to do next. It's kind of maddening.
Just keep db'ing. We're all rooting for you.
2T2M
wet - absolutely a boundary. This has never come up before. I'm not sure why she even suggested that it would be a possibility. I am completely taken back by the thought of the day. Smile and ignore. don't put any drinks in me. I don't think it would be good for anyone.
The other day I got an e-mail from W asking if I would be open to going to her bosses vacation cottage for the day sometime in August. I said I would be open to it. Then she says that OM was invited by the boss too (and probably OMW too.)
I don't know if your presence is or is not important to her job security, but if not, I would politely decline and say I have other plans. Wet is right. That should be a boundary.
thanks 2t2m
She says she doesn't know what's going on in her head, and not even just about this. She has been forgetful lately which is not like her at all(that is upsetting her too).
U-turn, do you think is a good opportunity to open up a discussion with her? Perhaps asking her why she wants you there, might open up what she is thinking. 2T2M brought up a good point, if she needs you there to help her for her work, maybe she thought this could be appropriate. I don't know, it still seems weird...
It's good for discussion to find out what the heck she is thinking I suppose. I don't think it is going to open up anything new though.
I have the so many different scenarios: all sit around and have a good laugh about it (probably not). Dual to the death (unlikely). Probably me staring him down all day and feeling sorry for his W and watching my Ws interaction with everyone. Yikes sounds like hell.
I have a feeling it would look good to act like a real stable family for the boss (who is unaware of the A). Great day for an "outing" if I was feeling a little destructive. (sorry just a little ramped up right now). Just trying to keep some humor in everything - it helps me get through some times.
U-turn, first thing that came to my mind about the cottage trip was boating accident. But that's just being mean. It certainly would be awkward, especially is OMW was there too. Too many triangles to deal with. But the opportunity for a good heart to heart with OMW would certainly liven up the visit. I don't know if I would be able to handle that situation. Maybe best to set boundaries - if OM is going you're busy elsewhere.
I was in a similar sitch during the last days of my first marriage. We hung out with another married couple where the H was having an EA with my W. It got very uncomfortable sometimes. I thought it was just a phase she was going through and had no idea about DB, DR or SBT. Ended in D. Now my 2nd W is a WAW. But DBing has helped. Sandi has helped. The A is over but WAW is still at arms length. No reconciliation yet. Still working through a bunch of things. It's been 8 months since D-day. I want her back so bad it hurts, but need to stay detached and keep DBing. It take such patience that I find it hard not to grab her and hug her every so often. Not constructive at all but it feels good for me. Not for her. Sets me back a week or two. So you see having patience and letting things unfold on their own is actually the faster way to get to a new M. Very counterintuitive, but very true.
I'm not going to stress about the cottage thing until I know more now. Thanks everyone.
Last night, I don'think I was detaching enough. The kids were all in separate places with friends (their own GAL I suppose which is good for them). W resents a little that now they only tell me where they are going. S20 doesn't tell W anything about his whereabouts now. She did get mad about that last night and I listened to her, acknowledged that I heard her, but didn't offer any suggestions of what to do (to either of them). I feel like I didn't help.
So without the kids, we decided to go out to dinner to one of our favorite places. We sat, ate, had regular minimal conversation, went home and off to separate corners. Doesn't seem productive.
I still fight the urges to bring up what I would consider deep and meaningful conversations about life. But no - that usually ruins the evening. So I didn't. I am still waiting for her to say something, or ask something.
Sometimes it really gets to me when she acts as if everything is normal, like this is not affecting her. Has she forgotten about the issues? It's like she is using my methods. That's what makes me want to break DB and talk about us. Not about pizza or work, about what it's going to take to move this in a direction.
I get really impatient toward the end of every week (thur, fri).
u-turn, I know you've heard this a thousand times, but be patient.
I go through the same frustrations as you do. You have to understand that her mind is caught in the fog of the affair. The OM consumes her thoughts. I think at this point, any discussions about the situation will either be one-sided (if you don't argue back), or turn into an argument. You just have to stick it out.
She's already starting to see signs of her life crumbling around her (e.g. relationship with her kids).
On one hand, these things could work towards your advantage as she begins to second-guess her A.
On the flip side, she could completely blame you for it. And if it comes to that, I know it would be extremely tempting to fire back, "Well that's part of the consequences of your infidelity". Don't go there!
Regarding thoughts of breaking DB -- don't do that. I made that mistake early on, as I was applying different "methods" and executing them at different times without giving any one method sufficient time to work (or fail). It wasn't until two Wednesdays ago that I fully committed myself to DB.
Dawgy:
I physically assaulted my wifes OM . I was snooping and caught them together . He was in my wifes vehicle passenger seat holding hands with her but they had the doors locked when I pulled up . I could see the fear in both of their eyes . I punched the side window out of the car and dragged him out through the window and pummeled him mercilessly . It was all in a flash and it happened so quickly . The only thing that saved him was her screaming that she was going to pack and leave if i didnt stop . So i stopped . He was well battered and bloodied . This did me nooooooo good . She didnt leave but actually started seeing him more . It worked in his favor . It was a major screw up on my part but i was so full of emotion i just burst .
So guys/ gals , let this be a lesson > Confronting OM /OW will not do anything but put you in a bad light . And if your as emotional as I am you may do something as foolish as assault . Which I was lucky i didnt severly hurt him and get charged .Nothing good can come out of snooping and spying . DONT DO IT . DETACH . It works for your self and your marriage . It may not save your marriage but it will save you .
______
I know it was and still is hard to know what to do, and sometimes it still feels like I want to "handle" things, it wouldn't do me any good, it wouldn't make me look stronger to my wife, it wouldn't teach my kids how to be a good person. (though sometimes it feels like I'm living in a blues song, I don't have to react in the same way).
Sorry that's confusing:
This is a response to Dawgy's post on my first threat.
Just to clarify.
Thanks
U turn ! Dude do not go anywhere with her if OM is gonna be there . Seriously . Read the last post from me on your old thread . What I wrote about can happen to you . You may think you can have control but your emotions WILL get the best of you in that sitch. i totally agree with 2+2 , politely decline and say you have other plans . But also if it was me i would ask her reasoning behind why she wants you there ? There must be some sort of reasoning for asking you such a bizarre thing > Just to see in her mind what shes thinking . Maybe she thinks its not a big deal or maybe she is testing you to see how much you can handle . Anyway I would want to know why she asked you . Dawgy
I usually have pretty good self control, but could not guarantee anything in that setting. I would have to decline.
It seems like there has been a lot of testing to see how much I can handle. It's like she is a completely different person that I've ever known. She could be trying to hurt me on purpose - she's never done that.
IMO, you should not go. She only wants you there for appearances. It is so disresptful to OMW and you to expect you to be there while WAW and OM make goo goo eyes at each other.
Disrespectful-I agree. I think that would be another place where I'd make more mistakes and more back sliding.
Maybe the thought of normalizing our lives is what she is thinking seeing that there is not really an intention of them getting different jobs or anything that would separate their lives.
Can it work if they continue to work together? I don't know this and neither does she. Nobody can see into the future. It seems that something would have to happen to make them actually dislike each other.
At some point I would like to make a strong suggestion to get a different job. Right now she would take that as stripping away her personal victories.
The chances are slim. I cannot remember a case where the affair partners saw each other every day and have a great marriage. They are addicted to each other, so think about trying to get off drugs while taking them every day. Does not work.
So there's a dilemma. I can do all of this fixing of myself (which will be a plus for my future). But the likelihood of the A ending is dim. Even if she wanted to - she wasn't strong enough to resist it when it started, how can she be strong enough now that she's addicted to it?
I guess that I will know when to bring this topic up, but when do you think I should talk about the reality of the A being an addiction that she may need help kicking and maybe the fact that she should find a new job. But then really - that may not even end it if she doesn't want to (I guess I'm thinking too far ahead)
You're still trying to control things. She's 'in love' with the OM right now and the more you impose your own beliefs on her, the more she will want the OM. It's like a kid in a candy store who can't get the candy she wants. When she's denied it, she wants it more.
Make yourself the better candy.
And that's also, from what she tells me, the trouble she's been having so far. She knows and admits that the A is not right, not fair, and not what she thought she was ever capable of doing. She said she has told him "that's it" several times. But she keeps going back. Now - that could be because of my mistakes in handling myself at home (pre DB). So this is what I'll keep doing and not backslide into what I was doing.
MrBond
I see that now and really get the not pushing the issue with the OM. and truly don't with her anymore.
I like this place because I can let what's been in my head out and not feel like I have to talk to her about it (the way we have in the past). I can release it here and then it's gone. Prior to finding DB, I would keep this all bottled up until I just had to talk to her about all of my feelings (and that never - ever worked).
She called it my circular pattern - I would be ok, not emotional, not dwelling on things, for 1 or 2 weeks. Then I would have the NEED to talk and pursue and explain and ask questions. She said I kept going back to square-one. It was driving her crazy. She said with this pattern she could see that I could never heal from this and I should just run.
I feel in a much better place now - and actually have direction.
She called it my circular pattern - I would be ok, not emotional, not dwelling on things, for 1 or 2 weeks. Then I would have the NEED to talk and pursue and explain and ask questions. She said I kept going back to square-one. It was driving her crazy. She said with this pattern she could see that I could never heal from this and I should just run.
LOL...are you sure we don't have the same wives? She called my behavior an "oscillating fan".
I usually have pretty good self control, but could not guarantee anything in that setting. I would have to decline.
It seems like there has been a lot of testing to see how much I can handle. It's like she is a completely different person that I've ever known. She could be trying to hurt me on purpose - she's never done that.
[color:#FF0000][/color]
I was listening to a sermon today ( Yeah .. all this I ended up finding God and its helped me more than I can say) ... anyways the guy said something that hit home for me as my WAW is someone I dont even feel I know at times .. with what she has done .. things she has said .. purposely trying to hurt and destroy me. .... anyways he said "Hurt people, hurt people." The message was instead of reacting to the words/actions .. look for the hurt they have rather than the hurt they are trying to inflict, I seen it as a wounded animal, she doesn't want your help because she is scared so she kicks at you and fights you regardless of your good intentions. ... not sure if that helps you or not .. but I found it to be enlightening
CaliGuy,
Thank you so much for sharing that.
2Times2Many
Thanks CaliGuy,
That is very helpful - what a good perspective
Just an update and questions about detaching:
Normal friday night dinner - pizza in the park with S20 & W
today - yard work and W wants to help.
It doesn't seem like being detached is actually different in many ways. It's almost like business as usual.
My weekend 180 is to not start any conversations about us. That's a tough one because it is so much on my mind.
She seems to be unaffected by this.
I'll keep it up.
It's almost an exercise in stay happy and dumb because it doesn't cause stress at home and maybe someday she will see the light.
or
stay happy and dumb so she can continue on with living the double life because everyone is happy.
So how long are you willing to live in an open M?
Well there's the issue. I'm not willing to. But I am confused now by the DB method. Don't talk about our R. Act as if. Be the husband she'd be crazy to leave. But how do I fit stop the open marriage into that without slipping?
I've got a question and I don't know how to handle specific situations yet.
So - W & I are having a normal and good day. Worked together in the yard, went to a quick lunch, plenty of small talk, we come home and she plants a big long kiss on me. not a peck, a kiss that wanted more. I kind of held back and wanted to say
"whoa - after not talking much for 2 weeks, this confuses me and is sending me mixed signals. What is it that you want?"
I went along with the kiss - it felt weird so I feel like I was a little cold. She then wants to go out tonight. I'd like to, it feels normal, but I'm always after the talk first. I know it wreck the day though.
So, is this what cake eating is about? Is this something that I should just go with? Is this something that I stop with a conversation?
A 180 would be to say that I don't want to go with her tonight.
Input?
Sorry I'm chiming in a little too late. I hope you went out with W and had a good time. I would have recommended it, but no R talk. If she wants to talk about your M then tell her no R until the A is over. (Sandi's advice - and it works). If she later starts talking about R, ask is A over. If not then say, then there's nothing to talk about.
Yeah could be cake eating. But going out with her and showing you best side can't hurt as long as conversation is kept light. Humour helps too.
Well. All didn't go as originally planned. W saw on my face that I was unsure about going. Then it happened. She asked whats wrong. I should have kept quiet but I said "I'm unsure about going because of the mixed signals fro this week to today". Didn't go well after that. No concert. More talk.
I was a little ramped up because of a conv. Sandi and I were having on a different thread(sandi I hope you follow me over here. I really appreciate your words. And they helped me tonight).
Now I'm sure this is a backwards step. But I feel we weren't at a good starting point anyway.
I will check on the fallout in the morning I guess.
You can not talk your way out of this. You can not talk this into a reconciliation. You cannot talk your way out of D. You cannot fix this by talking about the MR. So until you get TALKING out of your head, you will not make progress. You will continue to backside until you back right out the door!
So if you can't talk, what can you do? If you can't control her, who can you control?
You have to enter into a different mode of operation until the A ends and she is ready to make the M work. And when she is ready.....then you can talk (maybe).
This is the hardest part for the LBH to get in his head!
Agree with this and agree that I can only change myself.
This is very difficult as everyone says.
After a little GAL for me this morning, when I got back and sat down W sat across and started
W. you will never trust me
M. blank stare then, I hope to trust you again
W. I told you that you would never get over this
M. blank stare
W. What do you want with us
m. I don't think we should talk about us until we address ourselves
W. You will never get over this
m. I have told you that I feel that I can move past what has happened but cannot begin to work on us until it is over
W. There is no (OM) he will never leave his family
m. That doesn't change the situation, only the permanence of it
W. I deal with this every day
m. It must be very hard
W. you keep bringing this back to the square one (she walks away)
Well - I don't think that went very well. I remained calm as usual, she said there was no A - (I don't think this is the case, I don't believe what she is saying, but it doesn't matter what I think, I cannot control that.)
I do need to stop trying to talk. I heard it from you and her today.
Re-building trust is going to be very hard, but I guess that is too far ahead to worry about either.
Back to loving at a distance.
By the way - she was very annoyed by the fact that I was not engaging in conversation very much lately - she noticed and did not like it. But she just took it as I no longer want to talk to her. I don't think I was doing it correctly.
Much work and improvement is needed
Thanks Sandi!
Positive DB things that happened in that exchange?
-I didn't tell her that I didn't believe her about the A being over
-I didn't bring up past evidence (prior snooping - which I have stopped and that has saved me so much grief)
-I didn't try to stretch the conversation as I usually do
-I acknowledged that I have a hard time not discussing our problems
-I listened to her without interrupting. Kept my responses short.
negative?
-blank stares probably are not very productive - not validating
-I did tell her that I wanted to work on us only after the affair was over (don't talk about the A)
-(forgot to mention this - this could be bad, in this exchange I told her that I cared for her and still have love for her but I don't need her. I don't depend on her to give me happiness (I KNOW STFU))
When she says things like...
"W. you will never trust me"
Stop her and tell her that she is not you and that she has no right to "assume" what you can or cannot do. Tell her that trust is something that is earned and you can trust her as long as she's honest with you. That you two can heal as long as the honesty is there. So that is up to her. Not you.
I have told her in the past that she does not know what I am capable of (when talking about trust). She seems to rehash this point a lot.
I did tell her that we both need to work on building trust again at some point - I'm sure she has lost trust in me when I have told her that I looked at her phone and such.
I chose not to say anything about what I thought it would take to build my trust in her again. I think it is way to early for that.
Thank you for the tip (I sure can use them). Now that moment is gone and I don't think I should try and talk any more about this today (not re-open the conversation).
So is the A over? She said there is no OM. Is there also NC. Is the OM out of her head completely? I doubt it. That takes time.
In order to rebuild trust she will have to be completely transparent with you. That means letting you see her phone and allowing you to explore all the text messages and phone call records in it. And it means telling you where she is at any time. This doesn't mean you're controlling her - she can go where she wants and do what she wants - it's just that there should be nothing to hide, and until you rebuild trust there will have to be a phase where you are checking on her to verify her whereabouts and activities. Once trust is re-earned then the checking will diminish as you'll feel no need to.
Not sure if you want to explain that to her.
As for forgiveness, you can tell her that forgiveness will also be a process. You need to forgive her. She needs to forgive herself. She needs to forgive you for anything that you did in the M that drove her away, and you need to forgive yourself for that too. Do you have that clearly defined?
Also you must realize that the marriage you had is over. You are now at a point (provided the A is over) where you need to build a new marriage.
Totally agree Peter - I don't think it is time to do all this with her yet. I will remain detached or regain detachment first to see what happens. I do not want to push too hard too fast as this has usually been my problem.
The transparency thing is going to be a sticking point as this is completely against the freedom she is trying to get along with the rest of the MLC symptoms. She will see it as controlling at this point.
I know even if the PA is over the EA is there and will be hard to end. I don't really know if she wants to end it or realizes it is a problem.
I know I have it in me to forgive and move forward. In my soul searching, I have discovered much about myself and my flaws. I know what I can do better, I know what I will not give up, and I also know that I cannot change the past. I hope she has the ability to forgive herself, she does bring up my past faults a lot these, I believe to try and justify her actions. I have read that this will happen.
We are not perfect and I am at peace with that.
Thanks PeterV
Question to all:
Do you validate even if you know what is being said is a lie?
my guess of the answer:
maybe - depends on the situation.
Sometimes - I hear what you are saying
Sometimes - I hear what you are saying but I see it differently
Never - I don't believe what you are saying
Never - I don't think that is the truth and here's the proof.
Hopefully someone will have a better answer.
Thanks
The answer she gave about no OM (b/c he will never leave his family) must have hurt you. Not exactly her saying it was her choice! But that may be close to the truth as you will have for the moment. Seeing OM at work will feed her EA.
It always baffles me how the LBH feels a strong need for his WAW (who is having an A) to be able to try to trust HIM! She was the unfaithful S, and the one who has to earn YOUR trust. If you start turning it around, she will continue to feel justified. She was the one hiding the truth from you!
Don't worry about how she felt toward you not saying as much as usual. It was good that it made her feel uncomfortable.
Fwiw, you learned on the board what it means to loving her but not needing her. But She didn't.
(
Oh it hurt. She has said this before. It doesn't even tell me that it's over, just that they will never be a permanent item.
The EA thing is going to be a huge issue that I can't do anything about - and she will have a nearly impossible time with too.
The trust thing. I'm asked to dig deep and figure out what problems I brought to the marriage. In doing so, now I have the fact that I have not been trustworthy (looked at phone, e-mail etc). That is something that will need to be forgiven (by myself and her) for us to move on. I do not bring this up to her - I try not to beat myself up over my mistakes any more (a problem that I have had in the past) and I am trying to improve.
I know she should be the one that is trying harder - but she's not and that concerns me.
She was actually content about the fact that I said that I didn't need her. I think it released some pressure.
I think the transparency plan should come from her, but likely it will have to come from me unless she is truly back in (I can't feel that at all right now). I think I have to be patient and wait to re-establish trust. (right?)
Back to teaching today will be very busy again with this. I have a new PMA outlook for this too. I am trying to be positive with everything in my life right now. I wasn't sure that I was going back this year but it will probably be good for me. Lots of interaction with lots of people (it will keep my mind busy and focused).
Thanks all!
U Turn i think going back to teaching is of the utmost important thing for you right now . That will definitely keep you distracted and detached . Theres alot going on in your life and teaching will keep you from dwelling on the negative .
My detachment is working wonders with me . Im feeling better than i have for months . We talk very little and frankly if she was to leave tomorrow i would say have a nice life . Ive come to realize theres alot more life out there than to spend time with a woman who treated me so , so badly . I do forgive her but only for me . She doesnt deserve my forgiveness . Maybe Im bitter towards her now but I didnt do this . She could have done alot of things different rather than be a cheating sl$!t .
I do still love her immensly but getting harder every day to imagine staying together for ever . I think the damage is done . And I agree with Peter , if we do stay together it will be a completely new marriage . But honestly theres many , many beautiful women out there to start over with . And some of them really understand you because they ve been through it too .
Dawgy,
I am sorry you are in this situation and feel the need to move on. I do not have those feeling right now. Sure I am angry, but am not hostile. Sure she has been/is cheating, but something is not right with her. For 20 years she has not acted like this and now she is. I have to give it time before I would rush into calling it quits. I have to figure out if she is going to stay like this or realize that this is not who she is.
I am being patient because she's that important to me. I do know that we would start from the beginning, but don't feel like I have much to lose by being patient right now.
Dawgy, I also feel better now that I have found some things for myself, getting busy again. Teaching will be good for me again.
Detaching definitely helps me, I don't know what it it doing to her, but it is giving her space and time to sort herself out. I hope she does eventually.
S20 is a wreck - had another sitdown with him. He doesn't want to try and work things out with his mother any more and feels controlled by her. It's tough. I don't want to step in and try and fix things. I gave him some suggestions of how to approach the conversation with is mother. I don't know if this is the right thing to do, as this adds family stress to her.
S20 was very upset that she blamed me and the kids for not being supportive to her and that is the reason for the problems mom and dad are having (her way of redirecting the problem as she does with me).
The way I see it, I married her for better or for worse and it can't get much worse than this. Hopefully with time it gets better.
I heard someone say once, there's no situation so bad that you can't make it worse. So by sticking to Sandi's rules, at least I'm not making it worse. Even keeping it in the current status quo of limbo just means I need patience to accept the current condition and let things unfold as they will.
I do know that there are things I can do to shift someone else's thinking - instead of pushing the buttons that deteriorate the sitch, I'll choose to push the buttons that improve it.
I look for the improvement buttons too, but don't want to feed into the "cake-eating" that I hear about. Is she cake eating or doesn't know what she is doing?
She wants me to hold her hand. she said she likes when I say good night to her. These are tiny things that I think can improve us, but I don't know if it can change us.
I don't know if it matters if she is having a MLC or not. If she is, does the level of detaching need to change?
I'm not sure I am detaching enough to make a difference. I can more easily show her that I love her, with small things like this. It is how we always acted toward each other.
Sandi, my thought process doesn't work as quickly as some people's, I have questions about this from a couple days ago.
The answer she gave about no OM (b/c he will never leave his family) must have hurt you. Not exactly her saying it was her choice! But that may be close to the truth as you will have for the moment. Seeing OM at work will feed her EA.
(
Sandi-
I don't know what to do about this. Do I dig further? Do I ask what she means by this and what she is committed to? Do I question this not being a decision that she made only circumstances? Do I ask about ending the EA.
I think the answer to these are NO. But then you ask "how long are you willing to be in an open marriage?" and I say I don't accept it.
I'm conflicted with the DB techniques and my situation.
39. If there is an OW/OM in the picture, don't focus on them. BE the better choice, which means being a spouse only a fool would leave.
Does the mean don't focus or don't bring up the topic? Let the topic sit in silence and be patient? Wait for her move? Continue Limbo?
Is it a matter of only detaching and PMA and GAL and patience right now or is there something I am missing?
U-turn, you are asking the same questions that I asked myself for months. And I don't have good answers.
I think that this whole process takes time. My understanding is that there is not one thing that we can do to alter the affair. It's got to run its course. So - fine. You've said you won't be in an open marriage (I did, too). But - I never gave a firm boundary of, "If you're in a relationship with this woman, then I will [fill in blank with boundary.]"
I know a lot about this man. I've known him since he was 21 years old. I know how important integrity is to him. And I suspect that at some point that is going to be eating him alive, if it isn't already.
Just the other day he said to me, "For the most part, I am a good person." He was looking for validation, desperately. I simply mirrored what he said to me. "For the most part, you are."
It was the truth. And the truth hurts. And it keeps him awake at night.
So...who knows if I'm doing this right. I'm only 9 months in and this could take a long time (yyaaaayyyy....). But - I've totally stopped any conversation about OW. It's been 8 weeks since we talked about her. I've stopped talking about our relationship. He on the other hand sent me a note the other day about MY merits. I don't know if he wanted a list of his merits back (I didn't send him one).
The boundaries are to protect you. If you feel okay with the boundaries that you have, then I guess that's fine. If you feel badly about the boundaries that you have, then adjust them.
I told H in no uncertain terms that I did not want to be in an open marriage, that I wanted a marriage based on honesty and fidelity. He's awake a lot of nights now, and quiet. I see him struggling. But I'm still avoiding relationship talks for my sanity. I've really got to work on GAL because that would be good for me anyway. I'm hopeful that at some point we will get to a place where he will say, "I've wrestled that demon to the ground, I think we should talk about our marriage, I'm sorry for what we've gone through..." But I don't think that's going to happen soon. I think he's got a lot of crap he's got to work on in himself first. I've got my own crap to work on.
So - am I willing to be in an open marriage? No. He knows. Honesty and fidelity - those are my goals. We are a long way off from those goals, but I have hope that I'll recognize the right time to talk about them.
I'm totally not helpful - but I'm empathetic to your pain.
I don't know what to do about this. Do I dig further? Do I ask what she means by this and what she is committed to? Do I question this not being a decision that she made only circumstances? Do I ask about ending the EA.
This is your choice, we can't choose for you. Could you be honest to yourself without been affraid?
I mean, when you start dating people the person you like "chooses" you so why would you ask for somebody to choose you? Let her choose whatever she wants despite the fact that you might or not feel good about her choice. Whoever is with you has to be with you because they love themselves enough to share that love with you
I guess my questions were more about DBng and less about what I want to do. The way I would have handled this prior to DBng, would be to find out more, try to get a time line, tell her what I want.
Then with DBng, now it's about time and space and detaching. I can't make her do anything. Don't pressure her because it will surly drive her further away.
I know I might sound like a broken record, but I am feeling confused about the methods. I know it is my choice, I am just trying to understand what I am up against.
If I said I opened up a conversation with W to talk about the boundaries with the OM that she has just told me wasn't a factor, I will likely get a backlash from her and probably others here. I am trying to get that backlash here before I do this. Believe it or not, I am taking the advice here to heart and do follow it.
I know what my goals are and what I want.
And I know that my goals and what I want may ultimately be much different than her goals and what she wants.
Well there is no an instructions book for this, only a couple of rules, Sandi rules.
Other than that you can't do anything else, dont worry about sounding like a broken record, hehhehe all of us have gone trought that and me sometimes I still asking nonsense questions to my sisters
Its normal, you are human and you have feelings.
The thing is that you have a long time in front of you to start feeling better despite how this ends.
Look this world its full of great people and not so great people, choose a side and stick to that side, and hey if you ended D no problem, its not under your control.
A few months ago I will give everything for my W to come back, today I see many woman in this forum fighting for their marriage and that shows me that there is still a lot of people who believe in marriage
so one day I will share my life with a person who her goal is to spend her life with me, I will not have to beg her to be by my side and keep up with a bunch of insecurities, all of us we have insecurities but we work on them with time, and with a friend and lover compasion.
Partners who keep
A few months ago I will give everything for my W to come back, today I see many woman in this forum fighting for their marriage and that shows me that there is still a lot of people who believe in marriage
so one day I will share my life with a person who her goal is to spend her life with me, I will not have to beg her to be by my side and keep up with a bunch of insecurities, all of us we have insecurities but we work on them with time, and with a friend and lover compasion.
Partners who keep
Ye this is a nice thought. I met H when I was 22 and now I'm approaching 50 so I've been with him longer than I wasn't. It's hard to believe that I could have a real relationship after H. But you are right, there could be someone great out there.
To be fair ye21, you said your W left because you never supported her in wanting to be and actress and you lied to her in the past. You're not going to find someone who is just going to follow you and do what YOU want to do all the time. It takes two. And you didn't figure it out until she was leaving.
Yes MrBond, thats what I wanted to believe when she left, that I didn't supported her, in fact I dont believe that anymore, specially after been treated for emotional abusse for the last 6 months, getting divorce its an option, blaming your partner for your unhapiness its completelly a different path that I dont believe in today.
"Yes MrBond, thats what I wanted to believe when she left, that I didn't supported her, in fact I dont believe that anymore, "
Actually from what I saw, you convinced yourself of this as time went by. I noticed you were taking less and less responsibility for your own actions and making it all her fault. We're not talking about your W's unhappiness. It was her need for your support. Two different things. I don't think you ever understood that.
Sorry to hijack the thread u-turn.
Well I am divorced and surelly I already deal with enough issues however this is an important text for you RPPFL because again I think up to today the most important person is you, you came here asking for help and here you have something that I hope will help you:
When you're not the one who is divorced, it's easy to say, "just pick up and move on." But sometimes the emotions you go through when a divorce is settled can be overwhelming. One feeling that unexpectedly can creep up on you is guilt. Dealing with guilt after a divorce is an important step so that you can finally get around to the "moving on" part.
But until you deal with the guilt, that's just baggage you're going to be carrying around with you throughout your life, whether alone or in other relationships. All that baggage can really start to weigh you down. This visualization can help you lose it.
Why feel Guilty?
There was a time when you were in love with someone enough to swear a sacred oath to be together for better or for worse, till death do you part. When a marriage goes downhill and finally ends, guilt can well up because you feel like you've dropped the ball somewhere along the line. You may feel bad about things you did, or things you said.
Dealing with guilt after a divorce is an important step so that you can finally get around to the "moving on" part.
You might feel bad about the things you didn't do or didn't say. You might be beating yourself up over how you handled the situation-- should you have tried harder? Could you have been more understanding? The kind of thoughts that can enter your head in a time of distress are seemingly endless.
Be Realistic
You can't berate yourself over "maybes" and "should haves" so get those out of your head; maybe you did everything right, maybe you did what you should have done given the circumstances, and it still was not enough. Don't get stuck on "what might have been"; you have to accept what "is". Marriage is hard and sometimes it just doesn't work out through no fault of anyone in particular.
If you feel you have to apologize or make amends for something you did do that was out of line, place a phone call or write a heartfelt letter. Realize, then, it's in your past and out of your hands. Seek forgiveness, if not of your ex-spouse, then of yourself.
Bury the Guilt
One great exercise for getting rid of the guilt is to meditate and visualize yourself 'burying' it somewhere. Creative visualization can be a way to change your attitude and your feelings on an issue, and can help you release such feelings and become more positive.
Just close your eyes and relax; envision yourself somewhere packing a bag. It can be a suitcase, or a grocery bag-- whatever you like. Pack it up and imagine what your guilt would look like-- heavy, dark blankets? Ropes and chains? Black tufts of cloud? In your visualization, pack it up.
Close the bags and seal them shut, then go for a walk down a road-- a road to your new life. It may start desolate and barren. Look around, and you'll come to a deep, deep hole in the ground. Envision yourself throwing those bags of guilt right in there. Notice how free you feel without them, how light and happy. Pick up a shovel and begin scooping dirt on them to bury them for good-- and with each shovel full of dirt, imagine yourself feeling lighter and better. Imagine the sun getting brighter and the air getting fresher.
When you're ready, envision yourself walking down the road-- which gets more scenic and picturesque by the moment. Your new life lies on the horizon ahead, and you feel better and better as you draw closer to it.
Do this as often as you need to—once per day if you like—and you’ll find those feelings of guilt beginning to transform into optimism for the future.
"
Sorry to hijack the thread u-turn.
Please continue - I learn a lot from others interactions and stories
I have a lot to learn.
In the last 25 years of our relationship I haven't thought about our relationship as much as I have thought about it in the last 6 months. (if that makes any sense). I read others stories (successes and heading toward successes) and see what I am up against and what my goals really need to be and what mistakes to try to avoid.
I still have my eye on my goals but have realized that "I" need to be the focus of my goals.
This has nothing to do with what has been said on this thread recently, but just spouting off.
"Bury the Guilt"
This is the worst bit of advice I've seen on here for a long time. You don't "bury" guilt. You learn from it. You understand your role, you take responsibility for it and you become a better person. You don't let the guilt define you, but there's always enough fault to go around.
ye21 never did understand the impact that his lying and non-support of his W did to the relationship. He changed from accepting responsibility for his part to it being his W's fault for not sticking with him. But if you don't change, why would the other person want to still be with you if the problems that drove you apart are still there?
You can't control how another person CHOOSES to live, but they have a right to live the way they want to same as you or I. The only person you can change is yourself.
U-turn bro , i can see you are starting to question the DB way . Dont do it . I did the same thing . When I didnt feelthat DBing was giving me the results i Wanted then i started to question it . Howerver , Mlp is right ( I agree with alot she has to say )this is a time issue . Keep up with your DBing it does work for you especially > Its really starting to work for me after a couple months .
Having said that I like Sandi s list but i have tweaked it a little for my own sitch . I also believe that you should tweak the whole DB strategy to fit your own personal sitch . The hand holding , if she wants it ,give it to her , say goodnight to her just nothing more . These things in my opinion are not against DB practices but rather in sync with DB . They are showing her you care and still love her and are open to making things work
i think your doing a great job. But look after yourself too bro because shes not going to . Not right now anyway . Also dont think I have written off my Marriage because ive been talking and spending time with other women , it has actually been theraputic for me and i haven t cheated
U-turn - I give you Chapter 36 of the Tao de Ching:
If one wishes to shrink it
One must first expand it
If one wishes to weaken it
One must first strengthen it
If one wishes to discard it
One must first promote it
If one wishes to seize it
One must first give it
This is called subtle clarity
The soft and weak overcomes the tough and strong
Fish cannot leave the depths
The sharp instruments of the state
Cannot be shown to the people
So much of this doesn't make sense. Like you - I didn't give much thought to my relationship in the first 21 years. Then the bottom fell out and I had to look at what I had. (The answer is: a mess. Who knew?)
I think the thing about DB is DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY.
My H is in MLC - I feel very strongly about this. Part of his problem is with validation. Never in my life have I heard someone say so loudly and clearly, "PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO ME AND SHOW ME THAT YOU LOVE ME!!!" And part of me wants to tell that childish part of him, "DUDE, if you want attention, then you have to play nicely in the sandbox!" But...oddly....since I haven't really been that great at validating him WITH WORDS in the past, that's what I've been called to do. Step up to the plate, and tell the man that he is awesome when he is awesome. Sit on the couch with him and watch soccer with him. Spend time with him when he's home rather than ignoring him. So - it's not DB to a tee, for sure....because it definitely feels like pursuit. But he's shifting to me and I see a big difference in his behavior. Whatever it is, it's working, I think. The whole thing takes time and work and is strange. In the meantime, I am still setting boundaries. I noticed last night that I stopped him from having a conversation (he wanted to talk about boobs. Seriously. He's like 15 years old.) that I didn't want to have. He got sullen and quiet, but I saved my sanity. Boundaries are good.
If you didn't used to hold your wife's hand and she likes it, then do it.
Helpful?
Like you - I didn't give much thought to my relationship in the first 21 years. Then the bottom fell out and I had to look at what I had. (The answer is: a mess. Who knew?)
I think the thing about DB is DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY.
My H is in MLC - I feel very strongly about this. Part of his problem is with validation. Never in my life have I heard someone say so loudly and clearly, "PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO ME AND SHOW ME THAT YOU LOVE ME!!!" And part of me wants to tell that childish part of him, "DUDE, if you want attention, then you have to play nicely in the sandbox!" But...oddly....since I haven't really been that great at validating him WITH WORDS in the past, that's what I've been called to do. Step up to the plate, and tell the man that he is awesome when he is awesome. Sit on the couch with him and watch soccer with him. Spend time with him when he's home rather than ignoring him. So - it's not DB to a tee, for sure....because it definitely feels like pursuit. But he's shifting to me and I see a big difference in his behavior. Whatever it is, it's working, I think.
MLP I can so relate to this. I'm glad to hear it's working for you. It gives me hope.
I'm conflicted with the DB techniques and my situation.
Many LBH's reach that place of confusion. I think one reason is b/c when he reads DB/DR, it translates or forms a picture in his mind of how that would look in his stitch. He likes it and decides to follow the DBing path. (Sadly, some people believe that DB is even suggesting a doormat style to saving one's M.)But each person forms their own opinion when they read.
As he begins reading more and more posts here on the board, he often will see some terminology that isn't quoted from MWD's book. He reads where some board members encourage the LBS to take a swifter approach/harder stance, while others believe a softer one works best. There are times the board members disagree. So, yes, I can easily see why anyone could get confused!
I also have learned that many people do not seem to realize that as time passes that some "techniques" or 180's (your plan of action) may need adjusting or revised b/c the stitch may not be exactly as it was the first day you arrived here.
Everyone here has different personalities. How some people decide to deal with their stitch.....other people would not, or could not, do at all. By reading your posts, I see a man who readily agrees he doesn't want a M with three people. You have a lot of questions, and that's good. You want to think about all your options and see what worked for others. That is good, too. It tells me you are not narrow minded.
On one hand, I think your emotions are wanting to press her for some answers, and to act really hardcore. However, I just don't quite see you being the kind of man who will actually draw the line in the sand b/c you fear she will ignore it...or step over the line and dare you to do anything about it. You avoid conflicts. You internalize your thoughts/feelings. And b/c you have known about this A for some time now and don't know how to deal with it. You absolutely need a more specific plan of action, or your frustrations will cause you to give up on DB and walk away from the board.
My suggestion is this: Get paper & pen and make two columns . Start jotting down some DB words that seem to contradict each other. For an example, take MWD's "act as if" and what it means. Then take "cake eating" and what that means. (I can't actually remember that term being used in her book, but IDK.) I know it is used a lot on the board. This one may or may not appear contradicting to you, but it is for some people. It's just an example.
Once you complete your list, see what fits your personality. You know your nature better than anyone, right? And if you're not sure about some term, ask us and we'll try to give you the answer.
39. If there is an OW/OM in the picture, don't focus on them. BE the better choice, which means being a spouse only a fool would leave.
"Be a spouse only a fool would leave" is advice from a DB Coach to 25yrs. She has passed that along to others, and it's great advice. To me, being a H that only a fool would leave....might not be the same definition as other women would have. I think you also need to realize that when you are in a M where there was, or still is, an A....you may not be able to a few things as effectively as when the MR was healthy. The mindset of your W is not the way it once was....before the OM. But I'll get back to that point in a minute.
If there is another man, don't focus on him/affair. That must be extremely difficult. It's easy for me to tell you to just forget about OM, but I have not been in those shoes. I can only forward what I have learned through observation and information. You can obsess about the other guy until it destroys the man you
are....or would like to be. So don't let that happen to you. Take action now to see that it doesn't change "you" for the worse.
"Not focusing" means not to bring him up in conversations with your W. Don't make references to OM with some snide remark, etc. Don't ask questions about him. Don't do anything that may appear as if you have him on your mind. B/c it will take away from what you want to accomplish. You may not see it, but I promise you it
does leave a bad mark if you can't find a way to release the negative affect and lean how to cope....in spite of the A. (And I don't suggest you internalize b/c that isn't healthy.) For you, it is probably very hard to keep a PMA while reading their messages to each other, right? That's b/c it causes you to focus on their A.
I don't want to stop right here, but I have to leave. I'll be back to finish.
Thank you Sandi,
It will take me a while to digest this, but I think you are spot on with much of this (it's like you know me).
Sometimes it seems like I need to take a hard stance and push a little, but acting "as if" says a different thing.
I definitely keep my snide remarks in my head about the OM (I hope they don't even appear some day)
Thank you - reading this helps - I must not be the only one that feels this way
Getting back to having a plan of action and being a man only a fool would leave.....you could give a lot of time and breathing space to your W. If you show her your confident male strength (emotional/mental)and have no clingy, needy, smothering ways toward her,....then shine brightly during the times you are together, in time (a
lot of time)she just might start to see you as being the better choice for her....since she says OM will never leave his family. In time, she may get tired of of playing second fiddle to OMW, IDK. You can't be demanding, controlling, questioning, spying, and those types of things. B/c you will have to let her go. She will need to
feel that she is free to do whatever without giving you an account. You can still have boundaries and when she breaks them.......you tell her she's disrespecting you and then remove yourself from her presence immediately.
Many men prefer this way b/c they feel they do a better job of showing her their charm & winning personality,good times, interesting conversations, validation, a PMA, respond in her LL, plus all the other positive behavior acts that men usually think is making him the man only a fool would leave. Oh, and don't forget housework. Most men add in the housework when they start thinking of improving the MR.
I think the weak spots would be the tendency for him to slip into a position to follow instead of leading (which the M and family really him to lead). I could see how he could start displaying old habits/behaviors, begin compromising, cease to GAL, and feel his dignity slip away. I'm not saying the M can't be saved. I think it would take a lot out of a LBS b/c of the long length of limbo. However, if there are small children involved and the man can be both mother & father in her emotional absence....he may prefer this plan of action.
Another way (but a lot with what I said above merges with this)
does requires her to be transparent, respectful, and willing to
earn your trust again. IMHO, the best way this plan will work to save the M is either the W has to be willing and agree to the conditions he gives, and/or he has to be prepared to issue the consequences of her dishonoring his boundaries.(read that part carefully or you'll misunderstand). The M is saved due to her
cooperation and his tough--no nonsense proactive plan. Basically, she has to learn the hard way.....or they split. But a lot of men say they regained their dignity by standing up to the WAW and calling her out whenever she tried to use him like her doormat. I believe he can still be the man only a fool would leave (and show all those characteristics described above) but he has to perhaps exercise a tougher exterior and not put up with her craziness. This is actually attractive to a lot of women b/c he takes that stance and she respects it. However, some men simply are too afraid of the W leaving, and won't this route. It takes courage to go the tougher way.
I have hit very
few highlights. I'm sure it's quite obvious the path I believe in more strongly. Maybe b/c of the experience of being a WAW and knowing the mindset & emotions that are attached. You couldn't begin to know how many books I have read down through the years on the subject of improving a MR. But NOTHING I had read came close to the reality of being an over-the-hill WAW who was in personal crises and having an A. That is, until I read DR (and since then, some other books on the subject of infidelity). There is a tiny little line in the DR that many folks seem to miss when they read the book. MWD says that if the WAS
refuses to end the A (after you have really tried to DB) then get a lawyer and file for D! It is up to the individual LBS how long they can endure the stitch.
But let me add this b/c I don't want you to misunderstand me. Some people believe this tougher stance goes
completely against the DR book. I agree that you don't see Michele tell you to stand up to the WAW, call her out on disrespect, etc. (At least I can't remember it at the moment.) I don't think the term "transparency" was ever used. I'm not sure I remember her talking about boundaries, etc. (Guess I need to go back and read it again to refresh my memory!) So again, it's up to you which pathway or plan of action you choose to take. There should be no division, but I think there certainly is here on the board....partly due to their own experiences, the individuality of each stitch, and people's viewpoints about it. When all is said and done, I believe the center theme of DBing is to
do what works.
Sorry that I can't use fewer words. "I can't seem to help myself". (Isn't that what the LBS says?)
ye21 never did understand the impact that his lying and non-support of his W did to the relationship. He changed from accepting responsibility for his part to it being his W's fault for not sticking with him. But if you don't change, why would the other person want to still be with you if the problems that drove you apart are still there?
Easy to say that without knowing the hole story, you are not the first one to think so however I am a victim of emotional abuse despite the fact that I changed many things about by myself.
Now back to the post of U-turn and continue in the same dinamic, work on DBing for you and be honest with yourself, all of us do things that have consequences, but walking in eggshells its not a sign of a healthy relationship.
You both have to improve things, and you cant take over your shoulders all the responsability of what happened, because will you really change what you can't control? Would you change what you like about you in order to have someone by your side?
I havent posted my whole sitch here but check this out, today I am sure that happiness is a choice and not a mood, you have to go through hell to be able to appreciate the changes you do in your life. Change what YOU dont like in your life but for you, not to have your S come back because it will not make you happy at the end.
Its fine to struggle with all this situation its actually a natural proccess but you are not alone, to love another person its fine and be with that person its great as well, not a good move if to be with that person you have to stop being yourself
ye21, you're twisting things around like you did in your own situation. When everyone was trying to help you, you disappeared.
"You both have to improve things, and you cant take over your shoulders all the responsability of what happened,"
No one said that he had to take ALL of the responsibility. Just his part.
"because will you really change what you can't control?"
Actually you can change things that are not in your control. That's what the whole basis of DBing is all about. Change yourself to change the dynamic of the situation. Sometimes your changes affect negative reactions as well as positive ones.
"Would you change what you like about you in order to have someone by your side?"
NO ONE said that he had to change what he liked about himself. No one is perfect. He was just being encouraged to change the things that his W had issues with that may have been bad habits to begin with. For example, if a wife complains that her husband doesn't spend enough time with his kids, then you spend more time with the kids. Simple as that.
You didn't understand those basics. You may think this is picking on you, but the fact is that you are giving out the wrong information that will lead others to potentially fail in their situations.
Mr Bond, I think I get this.
She didn't like my lack of self confidence and dependence on her.
I am actively changing this - finally realizing how this has taken a toll on me and her. Even as things are I'm finding that this PMA thing works and makes me really feel good and is contagious.
She also complained that I didn't give her support with her new career. I have definitely changed this and she has acknowledged this.
She has complained that I didn't handle special occasions very well (b-days, holidays). I will have to prove this to her at some point. I have told her that I regret these things but will show her positive changes.
Other than these things she never complained about me - about things that I didn't respond to and address.
I think changing things that I actually like about myself wouldn't be good because these were also things that she liked about me.
With my positive changes, I feel better and I hope she sees a better me. (And makes a decision)
"I think changing things that I actually like about myself wouldn't be good because these were also things that she liked about me."
EXACTLY! See, things DO change that aren't in your control.
Now whether or not those actions translates into getting your W back, there's no guarantee. But you've got a better chance of it now than before.
Sandi, again thank you for spending so much time with me today.
I see your point and know this is going to take time to get through.
But I look at it this way - I basically am not married to her right now. She has not indicated that she wants to work on our R. She has not "picked" me. She has not offered any movement toward me, but she still wants to try and have normal conversations, act normal and sometimes hug or hold my hand, say goodnight and have a good day.
I always have felt that I can love my way through the relationship with my W. I feel like I could try this again until I see that it is going somewhere or nowhere.
In either case that you stated, she has to earn my trust back. Currently I don't think she feels that way or cares.
Thanks again - I am going to re-read your comments X20. and try and digest them
I am actively changing this - finally realizing how this has taken a toll on me and her. Even as things are I'm finding that this PMA thing works and makes me really feel good and is contagious.
It really does! Whenever I am around an enthusiastic person it seems to pep my own energy & interest. Same is true with people who are in a good/happy mood. It can be a challenge when living in a stitch like your, but that's why the PMA has to come deep within. You can't allow your mental attitude to function as a reactor to her moods or actions. Think of your PMA as a role model for your family. Your children, especially, need to see the correct way an adult conducts himself in the face of tension/turmoil in his personal life. Your W may respond positively or she may try to something else.......but I find it to be self defeating to be in a bad mood around a pleasant person.
I think changing things that I actually like about myself wouldn't be good because these were also things that she liked about me.
Well of course you shouldn't change the good to worse.......only to better, if possible.
So who has the next birthday? Was she referring to just her BD or the kids too? Did you join in with working their parties, or left it all to her? What would she usually do for your BD or other holidays?
We always did things for the kids together without issue, birthdays christmas, special occasions. But then we downplayed each other. We didn't get each other christmas presents (we felt it was for kids). We didn't do much of each other's birthdays. Mothers day is important to her and I did drop the ball there in the past.
S16 birthday next
W birthday in October - Is it buying gift, buying love, if I get her something for this year's birthday?
I want my changes to be real and feel real to her.
I know through our history that I should have focused more on her (and not just providing and not just the kids) I can't change the past. We were kid focused, but I do feel we were getting better doing things for ourselves as the kids were getting older.
Maybe all along she really wanted gifts (she never said that). I like giving gifts (get a little stressed out finding gifts)(I've been known to be stressed about spending money too).
It's definitely a 180 that is absolutely achievable, but maybe in the too late category because she is so focused on the negatives of the last year.
It's definitely a 180 that is absolutely achievable, but maybe in the too late category because she is so focused on the negatives of the last year.
and not committing to our M. Just existing right now. no movement.
As I write more, it always seems like it was just a fizzling out of us - not neglect, just going coasting. Nothing too much wrong, but nothing excitingly right. And then she found the distraction (OM). Now it may just seem to be hard for her to come back and find the excitement back in us even with my improvements.
Im telling you Turn your and my sitch are virtually the same . When you describe your wife it is exactly mine . Like MLP says there is a script they follow . Not written one per say but a subconcious one for sure. Forgive my spelling . Anyway i have to go to a wedding on Saturday . So we have to make all nice and be the happy family in front of everyone . Its gonna be a tough sell for me . Not for her though , she thinks every thing is fine and its only an affair , not the end of the world . She does nt understand why we cant live in a open marriage . Some days its like old times and other days its like another world shes in > Very bizarre
u-turn...
What's the 180 for the birthday? What have you NOT done in the past?
Do that.
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MLP
usually nice dinner, cards or gifts from kids, extra nice.
Now if it's all that plus gifts from me - could that be seen as buying love? or pursuing. It's a ways off so I hope things are different/better by then and it will be more clear to see.
Day by Day
I think you should not try to make a decision right now about her birthday, and see how things are when it gets closer to that time.
Oh I know - it's too early to think of that.
PMA is a little down today which seems to happen toward the end of every week (thur, fri). I can't exactly put my finger on why it is that way. I have to think that I just run out of the fake it till you make it steam. Weekends recharge it though (but that might be the cycle W complains about). and that might be because W puts in just enough effort to keep me from making a move.
I end up thinking more about limbo towards the end of the week for some reason. This makes me want to push and ask "come-on W, what are your plans, what are you going to do? lets stop this dance." Totally against DB and probably bring me back to square one.
Sometimes it seems more productive to just do what tarheal did. At least something would happen.
too early?
So back to patience and detachment.
That PMA is sometimes tough to keep up, all part of the learning and healing I think. And patience is right there with it, sometimes its hard to resist the urge to push back, kid gloves and baby steps man .. hang in there.
I feel you u-turn. I usually have down days at the end of the week too.
Last nights exchange:
I was look at this site on my phone when my W walked up behind me and my reaction was to turn my phone over. She was taken back by this and said "you can do what you want" I asked what she meant and she said "you need to do what you need to do". she then left.
I texted her a message that said
I am actively trying to improve myself, look deep and improve my faults. So I can become a better person. This is something that I want For myself and hopefully us. This is what I am doing.
If you think that I am hiding something or telling you lies, you are mistaken.
Just ask me.
(I didnt send this but it is my draft yet (probably wont send):
and by actively, I mean digging deep into what I feel that I am or was lacking, researching, and following a program for self improvement. I am making real changes in myself that I can feel and I am proud of.)
I probably shouldn't send that one. maybe just leave that alone. thoughts?
Later in the night she came home and sat by me
m: what did you mean by I need to do what I need to do?
W: if you want a divorce you are free to do that
m: I know
m: that is not what I ultimately want.
m: is it what you want?
W: No
m: You are free to make your own decisions too. You are not trapped
W: I know I am not trapped
m: Something need to happen though
W: I know
This may not seem like much to anyone else, but this type of conversation hasn't happened.
I don't know where it will lead, but I will step back a little now. I don't think it is good.
I am actively trying to improve myself, look deep and improve my faults. So I can become a better person. This is something that I want For myself and hopefully us. This is what I am doing.
Look, you can't have those conversations with her. You can't be explaining how you are working to improve yourself. Let her think whatever she wants to think about you turning your phone over. Certainly do not come back later to discuss or ask why she said what she did and quickly assuring her where you stand.
It helps if the LBH has an air of
some mystery. It would be a good thing if she was interested enough about your phone activity to "wonder" about it. Even MWD says to be a little mysterious sometimes. I'm not saying to lie or try to deceive her to think you are having an A or something. But why do you feel you have to explain what you do? This seems to be common among several LBH's when they first arrive, so hopefully you will stop explaining your actions to her.
Your WAW should see her LBH having a carefree attitude about her statements, instead of making a big deal about it. B/c when a man make a big deal out of something like that......it makes him appear like a Jr. High School drama queen. He needs to be cool and not affected by what she might be thinking about his actions. That is a sign he has detached, when these little things do not bug him....and he doesn't feel the need to justify himself to her.
Sandi-Thanks
Right. Sometimes hard for me to shut up.
Likely she's thinking that I'm getting my ducks in a row for planning a D. She seems to have hinted at that at times. Probably doesn't matter what she thinks though.
Sandi-
Sometimes I think it would still help if I were to be completely transparent to show her what I would want. I have never cared if she looked at my phone or e-mail or anything. she could ask me anything and I would tell her. I never had anything to hide.
That is probably where the thought of explaining what I was doing came from
But that thinking is probably flawed now. I can't make her do anything, follow my lead, convince her that there is a better way.
Sometimes I think the same thing u-turn, especially since I came across a page in a notebook she journaled in.
Thinly disguised link to my Old Dog thread
I feel a little dumb that I have made mistakes that some of the vets have warned me of. I think this is due to fact that I may be acting like I am detaching instead of actually detaching. I am not giving up. I don't have any other ideas.
I still have a very hard time letting go of the feeling that I am waiting for this to end and we can start over. I am usually a person that completely plans for (and almost expects) the worst to happen so I am usually pleasantly surprised that something positive happens. It's how I get through most of my stressful times (it helps me focus and work harder).
This weekend's goal, though it seems small. keep a pleasant look on my face, PMA, do not engage in any conversation with W about us or her or me. That's it - baby steps for me.
It will seem like I am just playing her game, because that is exactly what she is doing (act like there are no issues, pleasant look, no conversation about anything except work, weather, blah blah).(funny - in ways she seems to be doing a much better job at DBing than I am). I've read in other posts that there is "mirroring" and I see this to a point.
Thanks for everyone's help
Had a WONDERFUL dinner and night with the entire family. W, kids, kids friends.
It was so good.
WTF
I don't know why it has to be so F'd up! I don't understand!
Sorry for venting.
Dinner last night was great. Showing her how good things were and could be again - I don't feel she is getting it. I thanked her and said I had great time and she responded that it was good and it's been a long time.
Just a quick question to anyone:
I don't feel like she's conflicted at all by this and really hasn't been. She is either really good at hiding what is going on in her head or she really doesn't care that this is happening.
Is it possible that someone can change into a totally different person, a person who only cares about herself, in such a short time? Is it possible that the other person is gone and this is the new person?
Hi U-Turn,
No - I don't think it is possible to change so completely in that time, at least not permanently. That being said- I'm going through something similar with my H and I sure find myself thinking "who is this stranger?" an awful lot. So I hear you!
I think the much quoted line about not believing anything they say and only what they half of what they do (or how they behave)is what you have to hang your hat on.
Hey U-Turn buddy . I dont even need to post anymore . You are saying it all for me . Our sitches are virtually the same and your wife sounds like a clone of mine . That being said , you can clearly see you are not alone in this . There are many many people out there crossing the same bridges as you . My wife has me so messed up , its not funny.I do truly believe they are hurting badly too and it seems they cant help themselves from inflicting the pain on us in which carries over to them .
Detachment is the only way to feel better . If your like me ,you want to be around her a lot but when you actually are it hurts and is uncomfortable . When you are away and detaching you feel better in many ways but yet you long to be with her at the same time. Actually GALing makes me feel better than detaching . But then again GALing is detaching lololol Im a mess this morning dude . Anyway chin up , we can do this
I made it through the weekend without back-stepping (I believe). Succeeded at my small goals. Pleasant, PMA, no talking about us or her or me. I guess it went pretty well according to plan, she just seems annoyed that I am not being her best friend right now. I think this is ok and I shouldn't try to figure out what she is thinking.
I have to say that it does make me feel a little better to detach - not natural but a it feels like I'm more removed from the troubles. Sometimes I think that things could be better right now if we weren't in the same house - this may have to happen.
I don't get emotional any more, I don't get angry, but sometimes I still get impatient. But I'll keep trying to control that - I have to keep my mind on the big picture. I know the ball is in her court but she doesn't want to do anything with it.
I think I am not completely detached yet, I am sometimes affected by the music she plays and the books and magazines she is reading these days (they have a whole new meaning when I know it is not me she is relating them to). I don't say anything about them and try to let it go. It's a struggle.
She did ask me again if I was ok going to her bosses cottage next weekend with her and the kids. I did ask who would be there . She said just us. (No OM or OMW will be there). I told her I'd be ok and asked if she would be too. It may be an opportunity for me to shine a little in front of her - be social with her boss, have a good time with the kids. I still think she just wants to look like a happy family in front of her boss.
I would definitely go to the cottage bro if she says OM is NOT going to be there . Its fine if she just wants to look good in front of her boss . She is proud of her family obviously , which includes you .This a positive thing the way I see it . You are doing a good job my friend . I know exactly where you are and how you are feeling about your sitch . Sometimes it helps me to look at my sitch and just laugh at it and say stop being so serious dude . We never really know whats around the corner for us . I feel your pain Turn but it is an exercise for you and I and countless others on learning to not need to control things or people . Because the feeling of needing to be in control is extremely hurtful when you dont have control. Let it go and relax , what will be will be no matter what you do or say . I dont know if this helps but It works for me quite a bit . I can tell you are a person who likes to have control and so am I and its one of the reasons we are hurting so bad . Stop trying to control and GAL > It really does help