Old thread locked before getting feedback on my email response to W, so I've posted it below. Also links to previous threads...
Trying to stay patient Trying to stay patient- part 2 Trying to stay patient- part 3 'W, I appreciate you being open and honest with me regarding your feelings. I can imagine that it's difficult for you to open up right now to anyone, especially with me. I understand how you must feel hurt when the kids don't want to go with you and agree that they would probably refer to stay in their 'home'. Do you have any thoughts on how to handle it? Maybe having a set schedule would help, especially once school starts. I'd love to hear more about what you've been going through and how you feel.
(Not sure if I should include this section as it's more just me venting about the situation she's put me in. Feel free to strike through) This has been difficult on all of us. I'm sorry that you feel that I have it all right now, but I hope you realize that it's a struggle for me too. Staying at the house is great, but I also get to deal with all that comes with it- cleaning, groceries, bills, maintenance, meals, etc...However, as difficult as this situation has been, it's also given me the opportunity to step up and be the leader of this family that I wasn't for the past 15 years.
That's great to hear that you're doing well at the new job- I'm proud of you.'
For reference, here was W's email to me after D10 told W she did not want to go with W when she stopped by to pick up the kids...
'I know that D10 was just being- D10, but it doesn't feel good when she doesn't want to come with me...It hurts. It s*cks because I totally understand. They want to be at their house, with their things, and their pets and friends...I hate that I have to stress about picking them up and taking them home. I feel like my life has completely turned upside down and yours hasn't. Now, I know that's not true. I know that you feel completely distraught by me leaving the marriage/home, but In terms of our assets and routines and "home"...you have it all...Just my feelings. I'm trying to get better at sharing those and let you know where I'm coming from.'
So I sent this email, expecting no response...
'That's great to hear that you're doing well at the new job- You may not believe it, but I'm proud of you. This has been difficult on all of us. I appreciate you being open and honest with me regarding your feelings. I can imagine that it's difficult for you to open up right now to anyone, especially with me. I understand how you must feel hurt when the kids don't want to go with you and agree that they would probably prefer to stay in their 'home'. Do you have any thoughts on how to handle it? I do think we should create a set schedule once school starts. As you feel comfortable, I'd love to hear more about what you've been going through and how you feel.'
W responded with this...
'Thank you. I'm trying. I'm still going through a lot of depression and feeling defeated, but feel like I'm working towards something. I had a good talk with my mom last night about business and life in general. She knows how down I've been and how hard I've been working.'
Cryptic much?! What's the 'something' she's working towards?! The positive is that I've spoken with her mom (divorced when W and her brother were young and doesn't speak with exH) a few times since BD and she knows what's going on. I'd say she's in my corner, but I'm sure wants W to be happy, so...
^^^^ Mindreading. Don't do it. IL parents will often be in your corner, but WAS won't listen to 'you should go back' coaching. So likely MIL won't keep saying that to her at this stage. I would tend to think the 'something' would just be generic. Take the fact that it was a friendly response and don't dig for meaning.
I'd say she's in my corner, but I'm sure wants W to be happy, so...
Exactly. Do NOT bank on blood being anything other than thicker than water here, Tar.
Starsky
I agree. MIL is not afraid to tell W how it is, but I was more pleased in the fact that W emailed back than the contents of it. Seems like she's opened up to me a little more recently.
Don't get me started on the in-laws. Whew.
Slow and steady, Tar. Slow and steady. My fingers are crossed for you!
Feel like all I'm doing is posting emails, but here's what I received today. Explains why she was talking to her mom (that's who she's going with)
'I'm leaving tonight to head down to Florida for a few much needed "mental health days"...
I don't know why I procrastinate telling you these things.. Communication...One more of my crazy a** flaws...I've been dreading telling you for fear you'll be mad, or I'll be "in trouble". I told you I feel like you're my dad sometimes...Another thing I don't understand about our relationship.. I'm sorry for that.
On one hand I feel like I owe you an explanation for everything I do, and on the other I feel like I don't owe you anything since we have lived apart for almost a year.
We are in a weird place right now and I struggle with knowing what to do and how to act.
I also struggle with a huge amount of "mommy guilt"..I hate that I'll miss S10's orientation, but you're a great dad and more than capable of handling it all. But, if you need any help, tell me and I can call (best friend).I'll be back Weds night.
I hope you're not mad at me for going. I hate when you're mad at me.'
I just responded with 'Thanks for letting me know. Get some rest and have a good time!'
Tarheel,
I think your response was a good one. Nice, short, and to the point.
Feeling so messed up today- found out W did not go with her mom to FL, but instead with OM.
W and I text last night after I found out (she wouldn't answer my calls). Long story short, she claims that there are 15 of them there and she is not 'with OM'. She went to clear her mind and think about things. She's been going to church, praying for an answer, reading things...I have no idea why she was there, what she's been doing, it's not what I think it is, but she's tired of having this same conversation.
I'm so fed up and ready to just make the call to start D today, but then I have that little voice in the back of my head that continues to give her the benefit of the doubt- I don't know why. I don't know where to go from here....
Tarheel,
I am sorry to hear this.
How about the boundary issue we've talked about here? What would you like to do here?
Starsky, myself, Bond, and others are standing by ready to assist you. Just holler whenever you're ready. Take your time in processing this new information.
The new information is that I'm done. We talked over the phone for about an hour this morning. Started out rough, but smoothed out. Her biggest sticking point was wanting me to move out of the house a few days during the week so she could stay with the kids once school starts. Said my answer right now was no, but we could discuss options. She proposed we go out Fri night.
After we talked, I couldn't let it go and text her about who she was sleeping with in the bedroom (some girl) and if 'that' had ever happened with OM. I needed to know going forward. Her response- 'Do you really want to know? Why would I want to hurt you? The answer is yes. Not here.'
I know I should probably take some time, but that's always been my line in the sand. I can't imagine ever being able to overcome that. I've left a message at the attorney's office. Feeling defeated....
Finding out that it was a full blown PA makes this feel like BD all over again. I always struggled with detaching, as evident by how much this hurts. I will never understand how someone who claims to care about you can hurt you so much.
A lot of you on here warned me that it was a full blown PA, but I refused to believe it. I feel like such a fool.
Tarheel,
I am sorry that this is such a blow to hear a confirmation that W is continuing her A with the OM. We all have been where you are and it is not the end of the M. As you can see, we have recovered from it.
Not sure why you are filing for D with the L if you still want to save the M. In order to protect the M, you're going to have to instill strong boundaries for your W.
Tell her that you're not willing to live in an open M and her conducting an affair is utterly disrespectful. I'd suggest that you visit Dev's thread in Infidelity to gain some pointers on how to achieve it.
It's time to get some backbone and put your foot down!
No more waffling and dithering on taking this very important step if you are still interested in saving your M.
Tarheel, I am so sorry to hear your story. I am trying to deal with the detachment and last night felt like I cannot go on doing it.. just want it over. I struggle with the thought of W not loving me after 25 years of M and it makes me ill. You are in my prayers.
Tar,
Only you can decide if a PA is a deal-breaker for you.
If it's NOT ultimately a deal-breaker (it wasn't for me), then I stand staunchly by Wonka on her advice up there. This is the *perfect* time for you to switch gears and grow a backbone with W.
A man with courage, conviction and confidence is attractive.
I've been convinced that it was a deal breaker all throughout this process. I've read numerous threads on here where the PA is common knowledge and even flaunted in front of the LBS and I've always wondered how someone could tolerate that.
However, maybe it's second thoughts? Maybe it's foolishness? But this morning I've really been thinking of sending W one last email- either commit to the M right now or I'm fully prepared to proceed with D. I know, it's an ultimatum, but I think I'm being told from 'above' to give it this one last chance. And at this point, I'm fully prepared for her decision either way.
I don't know if I'd ever be able to overcome what W has put me through and what I've discovered, but I'm putting that aside for right now as I debate sending this last email.
I won't give a "yay" or "nay" on an e-mail. HOWEVER, if you plan to send one, post it here first, won't you?
The vets here have been giving you INCREDIBLE advice all along. And now you, yourself, see how it's easier for *us* to see things clearly, looking in from the outside.
So, yeah, grow that backbone, bro. But heed the advice given here about how to tactfully do it. Deal??
'Although what you told me yesterday was somewhat suspected (so didn't come as a total surprise), it still was incredibly painful to hear and will be for as long as I can envision.
With that being said, I've been dead set on proceeding forward with a divorce since hearing it. However, I think you know that I've been going to church on a regular basis for the past year. Throughout this process, I've looked to God to provide me answers and signs on what I should be doing, how I should interact with you, etc. I know you've mentioned you've recently begun doing the same. I prayed yesterday and asked questions that I don't know the answer to, but I believe that I've received yet another sign that I shouldn't be proceeding with a divorce just yet.
Because of that, I'm asking you this question- Are you willing to end all contact with OM immediately and begin to take the necessary step to build a new relationship with me? If you are not, I'm fully prepared to go ahead with the divorce.
I don't know that either one of us will ever be able to overcome the incredible hurt we've put on each other and eventually we'd need to address that. I can't guarantee that I can ever get the thought of what you confirmed out of my head, but I believe I may be able to put that aside for now if you're 100% committed to working on us.
I know this may seem like I'm forcing a decision from you, but I think I'm being 'told' to offer this last chance....Think about it and please let me know either way by tomorrow afternoon.'
Tarheel,
It is very obvious that you are writing the email based on your emotions over what you
just learned yesterday about W and the OM.
First things first...set the letter aside until this Friday. This is not a real emergency and does not NEED to be sent now. You want to be deliberate and thoughtful in approaching this.
I tell newbies all the time to post their draft emails/texts for feedback and input. Not because they cannot do it. It is because they do not YET have the proper DBing tools on how to write one based on DB principles.
What I advise around here when writing emails/texts is the following tips:
-KISS (Keep It Short and Sweet) Short, concise and relevant
-STFU about blaming, resentment, self-righteousness, and moralizing
So Tarheel...take out your Sharpie pen and re-work this draft. Word of warning..there may be 2 or 1,000 drafts before you reach the final version. 'Kay?
For some tips on how to do this, you might want to visit Dev's thread. We worked with Dev on the no-OM boundary email to his wife.
I will be away all the rest of the afternoon for a work commitment and will return in the evening. Myself and other DBers will be happy to assist you through this writing process.
Hang in there! You've got tons of DBers ready to lend you support and assistance here.
Tarheel,
It is very obvious that you are writing the email based on your emotions over what you
just learned yesterday about W and the OM.
First things first...set the letter aside until this Friday. This is not a real emergency and does not NEED to be sent now. You want to be deliberate and thoughtful in approaching this.
I tell newbies all the time to post their draft emails/texts for feedback and input. Not because they cannot do it. It is because they do not YET have the proper DBing tools on how to write one based on DB principles.
What I advise around here when writing emails/texts is the following tips:
-KISS (Keep It Short and Sweet) Short, concise and relevant
-STFU about blaming, resentment, self-righteousness, and moralizing
So Tarheel...take out your Sharpie pen and re-work this draft. Word of warning..there may be 2 or 1,000 drafts before you reach the final version. 'Kay?
For some tips on how to do this, you might want to visit Dev's thread. We worked with Dev on the no-OM boundary email to his wife.
I will be away all the rest of the afternoon for a work commitment and will return in the evening. Myself and other DBers will be happy to assist you through this writing process.
Hang in there! You've got tons of DBers ready to lend you support and assistance here.
Great advice, Wonka.
^^^ I third Wonka.
2nd draft...
'Over the past few days, I've been doing a lot of soul searching and honest reflection of our marriage and specifically, these past 11 mos. I've looked to God for answers and believe that I'm being told to continue fighting for us.
However, with that being said, I refuse to continue living in an open marriage. Should you decide you are unable to end contact with OM and commit to building a new relationship with me, I will move forward with initiating a divorce. We will continue to have a relationship with respect to the children that is civil, but I would like to cease all other communication.
So, are you willing to end all contact immediately and begin to take the necessary steps to build a new relationship with me?
Please take time to think about this and let me know either way by Monday morning...'
Tar,
Before doing anything at all really try to separate emotion from true feelings. If I ever find out my WAW, was involved with OM, I am not for sure how I would react. I have a feeling she is and my emotions are all over the place. I want to text and just ask, and other things. However, does it help the current situation, if I want the M to be better someday does it help? I haven't been apart from W as long as you, but it sure seems like it. So I can't answer what's right it wrong.
Take some time, think about what you really want. Get out and try(hard I know) to have some fun. Maybe there is a way to make it all work, maybe you can still continue to work. My heart goes out to you though, try and stay strong!!!
Tar,
Before doing anything at all really try to separate emotion from true feelings core beliefs.
I would change that slightly -- but importantly (see above).
"Emotions" and "feelings" are the same thing. These BIG decisions in life should be made on what your non-negotiable core beliefs are, with a whole bunch o' prayer mixed in in my opinion!
Starsky
Thanks Starsky good call.
Starsky,
Would you mind taking a look at my threads? Maybe any advice week received.
Tarheel,
Let's dissect your second draft, buddy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
'Over the past few days, I've been doing a lot of soul searching and honest reflection of our marriage and specifically, these past 11 mos. I've looked to God for answers and believe that I'm being told to continue fighting for us. I would suggest to leave God out of this. It could come across as sanctimonious to your wife...whether you intended or not. It is what it would look like from her POV.
However, with that being said, I refuse to continue living in an open marriage. Should you decide you are unable to end contact with OM and commit to building a new relationship with me, I will move forward with initiating a divorce. We will continue to have a relationship with respect to the children that is civil, but I would like to cease all other communication. ..'but I would like to' ...comes across as weak. As you know, inserting 'but' usually negates the preceding sentence.
So, are you willing to end all contact immediately and begin to take the necessary steps to build a new relationship with me? She's not willing. You might want to re-think this approach and make it a bit stronger. She needs to see that by not ending things with the OM, this...that...will happen. "are you willing"...suggests cooperation rather than making a decisive decision.
Please take time to think about this and let me know either way by Monday morning...' how about closing this a bit stronger? Please take...gosh! Just say, you have until Monday at noon to get back to me with your answer.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I would also work something in there that you are willing to work on the M alongside with W if she elects to end the affair with the OM. No where in the letter do you say this. I think it is very important to communicate to her that you are willing to do this. She needs to see and hear it from you.
Make sense?
'Over the past few days, I've been doing a lot of soul searching, praying and honest reflection on our marriage and specifically, these past 11 mos.
With that being said, I refuse to continue living in an open marriage. Should you decide you are unable to end all contact with OM and commit to building a new relationship with me, I will move forward with initiating a divorce. We will continue to have a civil relationship with respect to the kids and that will be all.
I'm asking that you end all contact immediately and begin to take the necessary steps with me towards building a new relationship.
Should you decide to work on our relationship, know that I am more than willing to put in the necessary work with you to establish a new, better marriage going forward.
I will look for your response by Monday morning on your decision...'
Wonka approved??
I'm on my phone and get thumb-tied trying to type more. But I would encourage you to give a specific hour on Monday (noon?) for her to respond. That will eliminate wiggle-room for her ... and anxiety for you.
On a positive note, I *feel* strength and resolve coming from this draft. Anddddddd I *like* it!
Draft #3:
I will say that this is much improved from the first one..no?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
'Over the past few days, I've been doing a lot of soul searching, praying and honest reflection on our marriage and specifically, these past 11 mos.
With that being said, I refuse to continue living in an open marriage. It is extremely disrespectful to me, to our marriage and family. You have some decisions to make here. Should you decide to work on our relationship, know that I am more than willing to put in the necessary work with you to establish a new, better, and improved marriage going forward.
Should you decide you are unable to end all contact with OM and commit to re-building a new relationship with me, I will move forward with initiating a divorce. We will continue to have a civil relationship with respect to the kids and that will be all. We will not be friends.
Please let me know your thoughts by Monday morning at 9 am on your decision...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am sure Starsky, Bond, Sandi, and others have some ideas here.
Sit on this one for a while. Sometimes the next day, we have a fresh set of eyes and may think of other things that did not occur before. I usually do this when writing business correspondences etc.
Thanks for the support and advice. This version is definitely less emotional than my first draft.
I can't believe I'm sitting here even willing to give W one last chance considering that only 12 hrs ago I was firmly committed to filing for D. Wow. I'm still trying to block out the PA and will definitely need a lot of work on that should we decide to reconcile.
For what it's worth, I fully expect W's response to be along the lines of 'I've been doing a lot of soul searching...trying to find the right answer...this isn't about OM...I'm not able to commit to us right now.'
I take that back. Her response will be 'OM and I are not together, but whatever...I'm too broken..we're too far gone...go ahead and start the process...'
Planning on sending today with a Sun night deadline. That should allow her enough time to make a firm decision.
Tarheel,
No mindreading. Don't go there.
Sent the email about 5 hrs ago. Gave her a 10pm Sunday deadline. On a somewhat positive note, I haven't received a 'whatever, go ahead and file' response yet
Tarheel,
Now we sit and wait. Put on your spew jacket, kelvar helmet and be prepared for anything that comes from her foxhole.
We've got your back, Tarheel!
We wait right beside you ...
Saturday morning and still no response. W text me yesterday asking if I could drop the kids off, but that's been the only communication since I sent the email. She has the kids all weekend, so I'm really not expecting any response until tomorrow night (10pm deadline).
What's going to be difficult is sticking to my boundary should I receive a wishy washy response (or no response at all). If she doesn't reply in a black or white, yes/no type of way, but instead an 'I need more time...let's maybe try dating...or I'm not sure how I feel.' I know I may struggle with moving forward with initiating D should I receive anything but an 'I'm ending OM contact, let's work on our R' response.
On a separate note, I'm proud of the father that I've been throughout this past year. I've always been heavily involved in my kids' lives, but I've taken on the typical 'motherly' activities during this time as well- grocery shopping, meals, cleaning, back to school shopping, etc. Took the kids go kart riding and to mini golf yesterday before school starts on Tues and we had a blast. When I dropped the kids off of W's place last night, I could see the sadness in D10's eyes- she hesitated when getting out of the car and gave me a hug before going to the door. I can honestly say when I look back on this 'mess', I'll hold my head up high in the father and leader I've become for them.
Tarheel,
It's inspirational to me how you are handling this - very strong. I feel like this may eventually be the path that I will have to take.
Keep your head up.
Don't you think you were in denial about the PA? B/c you always said
that would be the deal breaker....and yet you knew if you were faced with the truth about the A, you would be backed against the wall. As long as she would not admit it was PA, you could go on believing it wasn't.
What's going to be difficult is sticking to my boundary should I receive a wishy washy response (or no response at all). If she doesn't reply in a black or white, yes/no type of way, but instead an 'I need more time...let's maybe try dating...or I'm not sure how I feel.' I know I may struggle with moving forward with initiating D should I receive anything but an 'I'm ending OM contact, let's work on our R' response.
Reacting on your emotional state and sticking to what you tell her has been your biggest problem since the beginning. You have to stop being wishy-washy Tarheel. She has learned over years how this works with you, so she bids for more time by not giving black & white answers. And honestly, I think that's why you know her well enough to bank on her response to your deadline Sunday. You know each other well.
Get your big boy britches unpacked. You may need several pair.
(Btw Wonka, thanks for writing about the usage of the word "but" and how it negates what we previously say in a sentence. I have probably been guilty of misusing that little conjunction many times. This reminds me to be more aware of my but.
)
Sandi, you're correct. I was in denial of a PA. I knew the clues added up, but refused to believe that this person that I cared about so much would do something like that to me. I don't know why I thought my situation was any different than others on here.
On the flipside, I feel like finally discovering that it was a PA has put me in a position of being able to back up my boundary. I had problems sticking to my guns in previous situations because I wasn't 'there' yet. With what I know now, I'm 'there.'
I don't know why I thought my situation was any different than others on here.
It's understandable. Most of us want to think our stitch is different.
(Btw Wonka, thanks for writing about the usage of the word "but" and how it negates what we previously say in a sentence. I have probably been guilty of misusing that little conjunction many times. This reminds me to be more aware of my but.
)
But it's never too late for that, Sandi!
Hey, Tar!
What's the skinny, bro?
You're on my brain.
10pm has come and gone with no response from W...Suppose that's all I need to know.
Was trying not to mindread, but saw that she has talked to a friend quite a bit the last couple days, including texts at 3 am this morning. This friend is D'ing her H. W told me the other day that she had been trying to avoid talking to her because she was just telling W to go forward with D.
I'm going to be the bad person and mind read...
No response means she is "confused." She doesn't want to be the one to end any possibility of going back on her decision.
HOWEVER, this doesn't mean that she's planning on reconciling. She probably doubts her decision and your letter brings that doubt to the forefront. She's not ready to handle that. It brings up GUILT.
So going back to your deadline, if you don't keep to your promise you will come off like a push over.
if you don't keep to your promise you will come off like a push over.
Agreed.
It sounds like you're feeling a little defeated tonight, and I can fully understand why you would feel that way, Tarheel.
If I could offer you just one little piece of "advice," it'd be to put fear behind you and operate, instead, from a place of confidence and strength and resolve ... even if it takes everything you've got to put on that front.
It's not over 'til it's over.
Let W see - through your actions - that you say what you mean and mean what you say.
No fear.
I agree too.
So if I call atty in the morning, do I give W the heads up? Ask her why she didn't reply? Just go ahead and follow the atty process??
Just start the attorney process. You're not committed to anything but the retainer by doing it. She'll see you mean what you say. It's actually reassuring to do it because you'll be dealing with known variables.
On the off chance she's calling your bluff, you should do it.
I'm sorry you're in this place. Best to you.
Agree with this ^^^.
You only stand to weaken your stance if you tell her what you're doing and/or ask why she didn't respond. That, to me, looks like you're grasping at straws to give her one.last.chance to reconsider. And that looks weak and desperate and "grabby," and she won't respect it.
Have you been to a L at all through this process, Tar? Just curious.
I agree too.
So if I call atty in the morning, do I give W the heads up?
No. Your email (with a specific deadline), was the heads-up. She blew it off.
Time for the consequences to kick in.
I'm sorry, Tar -- I know you wanted her to have some sudden "epiphany" here but sometimes it takes the shock of being served divorce papers for them to turn around (it did for my wife). Others NEVER turn around.
As they often say around here, "this is HER journey." All you can do is keep and enforce your own healthy boundaries now, and pray for her.
Starsky
You only stand to weaken your stance if you tell her what you're doing and/or ask why she didn't respond.
I'm fighting that urge right now- to ask why no response. I know how that will come across though. Still difficult...
Have you been to a L at all through this process, Tar? Just curious.
Yes, I had a consultation mos ago. I called him last week and left a message(after I found out PA), but have yet to hear back from him. Looks like I'll need to follow up today.
You only stand to weaken your stance if you tell her what you're doing and/or ask why she didn't respond.
I'm fighting that urge right now- to ask why no response. I know how that will come across though. Still difficult...
Yes, this is difficult. Very difficult. But it can be done, and it's necessary.
Starsky
Just got off the phone with atty. Financially, I don't think there's anyway we'll be able to afford a contested D, so our other option is an agreed upon dissolution. Which means W and I need to start discussing/negotiating.
I need to start thinking on how to handle telling W that we need to do that- do I send W an email today informing her and providing time/date/location to meet?
You don't know yet that she'll contest what you ask for. I would ask your atty to have her served, drawing up precisely everything (reasonable) that you're seeking, and then do so. If she contests it (and she probably will), you can go from there and do what you can to keep costs down (like mediation).
Starsky
I think ANY contact from you to W right now will make you look like a wet noodle.
How about having your L send her the letter? On letterhead.
THAT screams: "I meant business, sweetheart."
I think ANY contact from you to W right now will make you look like a wet noodle.
How about having your L send her the letter? On letterhead.
THAT screams: "I meant business, sweetheart."
Hi Tarheel, I'm sorry that it's come down to this for you. I would start the divorce papers right away, in my state its a Divorce Summons and Complaint. If she does not respond within 30 days you get the relief that you ask for in the Complaint. The disadvantage is, you would be the Petitioner. The advantage is you are backing up the line that you've drawn. But just by getting it started does not mean that you cannot also settle together on the issues down the road, to keep costs down. It sounds like your L is not giving you the different options that can take place, so you may want to speak to someone else.
A little late, but W did reply to my email. Basically said she's just scared- scared of the work involved to R, scared it won't make a difference, scared things will get better for a while but then things will be right back to where we are now and then the kids have to adapt and go through it all again.
I suppose that's her way of telling me her answer, but not telling me, huh?
The process moves slow like a glacier. Plenty of time for her to get unscared.
I've read so many posts with WAS's saying ambiguous, confusing, and conflicting things. All I remember is one vet saying that no one allows the love of their life to leave over a misunderstanding. She'll tell you if she wants to take that risk.
Probably not what I would have been recommended to do, but I replied to her email with 'so what's your decision?'
She responded back- if I wanted to give it a chance, would MC be the first step?
I said yes, and I'd need to insist on no OM contact.
Tarheel, I don't want to be a downer, but keep the L stuff moving till you're satisfied this is real.
In the future, rather than saying "what is your decision?" -- which hands her all the power -- you might say something like, what are your thoughts, or how would you like to change things? This gives her a say but not all the power.
Good luck.
Tar,
Be careful of W's shell game. She's now attained a Black Belt status in this. Wow she's really good at this! She's trying to buy time with this MC talk and not really putting real work in it by drop kicking the OM to the curb.
I've seen way too many WAS go the MC route and then say "Well, I've tried."
I'd move forward with the D.
Tar,
Be careful of W's shell game. She's now attained a Black Belt status in this. Wow she's really good at this! She's trying to buy time with this MC talk and not really putting real work in it by drop kicking the OM to the curb.
I've seen way too many WAS go the MC route and then say "Well, I've tried."
I'd move forward with the D.
Starsky
Tar,
Be careful of W's shell game. She's now attained a Black Belt status in this. Wow she's really good at this! She's trying to buy time with this MC talk and not really putting real work in it by drop kicking the OM to the curb.
I've seen way too many WAS go the MC route and then say "Well, I've tried."
I'd move forward with the D.
X3 ... I did MC thinking we were trying and for some reason could not connect with W ... turns out OM was still in the picture pursuing her. Lesson learned and now I have things in place to protect myself from that happening again.
CaliGuy, what things are in place?
For future reference, and to help Tarheel.
Thanks!!
I will not commit to MC without 'no OM contact' (and proof) being part of the deal. She knows that is my biggest stipulation should we try to reconcile.
Per her email, she fears (as do I) that the first step would involve a lot of pain- talking right now when we are both upset with each other and having to be honest about our feelings. But I understand that that is part of the process in order to achieve a new, better relationship in the long run, so I would be willing to take that step.
I want to be clear that I am fully aware of her buying time tactic right now. I'm going to continue to draw up everything I would be seeking should we D. I *hope* that tonight she will respond to last night's email regarding the first steps, however if she does not, I will be prepared to proceed with D.
I'm sorry you're in that place, Tarheel.
I want to be clear that I am fully aware of her buying time tactic right now. I'm going to continue to draw up everything I would be seeking should we D. I *hope* that tonight she will respond to last night's email regarding the first steps, however if she does not, I will be prepared to proceed with D.
She already did respond to your email. What more do you want, Tar? Just more foot dragging on your part...it is how I see it here.
CaliGuy, what things are in place?
For future reference, and to help Tarheel.
Thanks!!
I am not where Tarheel is ..so my sitch differs a touch... as far as the D and all that. But I have put into place boundaries, I am DBing, GAL .. all that and told her before there was any chance at MC or R ... I would need full transparency plan that OM was out of the picture, with the NC letter that I would send via email/TM. I have been mislead about him twice now and even though she says its over (which may be the case and that's all fine and dandy) ... but I know before MC and R she needs to go to her IC and get herself together, and then she knows that I will need hard evidence that OM is officially gone if we are going to try and salvage the M.
FWIW I think Tarheel is doing the proper thing, seems he can see through the BS and and I get the hesitancy, but I do feel that after the deadline passed he does need to take action. If we don't set our own personal boundaries with conviction, we will be forever walked over.
I want to be clear that I am fully aware of her buying time tactic right now. I'm going to continue to draw up everything I would be seeking should we D. I *hope* that tonight she will respond to last night's email regarding the first steps, however if she does not, I will be prepared to proceed with D.
She already did respond to your email. What more do you want, Tar? Just more foot dragging on your part...it is how I see it here.
I wouldn't have an issue with Tar laying a "best and final offer" in front of his wife, that included:
1. Marriage counseling, with an MC who specializes in dealing with infidelity issues;
2. Wife sends a no-contact letter to OM, the content of which is to be approved by Tar, and he also delivers/mails it immediately after she signs it (so that nothing may be added or subtracted). (we can help you draft that, Tar);
3. FULL TRANSPARENCY plan put in place. Your wife changes her cellphone #, and the new #'s detailed billing comes to YOU. New email address. All emails and passwords, you get a copy of and you can access them at any time. She leaves her phone unlocked and available for you to look at any time you feel you need to. She shares her daily schedule with you, etc. And I would strongly recommend that YOU, Tar, have at least ONE method of intel in place that is UNKNOWN to her;
4. Anything else to add here? In my sitch, it was that my wife needed to quit her job (as a personal trainer at a gym), since that's where OM was and where they had partially conducted their affair. Only something MAJOR should be added here, as this is not meant to be some long impossible "laundry list" but rather a very short list of "dealbreakers."
And you let her know that if ANY of these are violated (especially contact with OM), you will file for divorce immediately.
Look, her FEELINGS are going to take awhile to come back -- 6 months to 2 years, I hate to say. But it is truly a DECISION as to whether or not she is willing to do the above and come back and work on the marriage with you. And there's no reason why that decision shouldn't take more than 24 hours. If her response to THAT is more equivocating, stalling, etc., I would have her served immediately and without notice.
Starsky
She already did respond to your email. What more do you want, Tar? Just more foot dragging on your part...it is how I see it here.
I just keep giving her one last chance after one last chance, huh?
Yes, actions speak louder than words. Yes, she appears to be buying time. But the fact of the matter is that this is as close as she has come to giving me any indication that she's actually willing to put in work. In our phone call last week, I felt like we both spoke honestly and I felt positive about our discussion. Finding out PA obviously threw a wrench into things for me.
So I either disregard our phone conversation and her asking about MC and proceed with D, hoping that she'll snap out of it and protest profusely OR I see if she responds to my MC/no contact email before taking any action.
I think Starsky is spot on ... OM and full transparency plan is the only way its going to work. It *is tough* to say, but at the least she has to respect the No More BS attitude being laid down here. It makes it her choice, she can chose to do the right thing, or look at the consequences.
Starsky, I was typing while you posted, but wanted you to know that I am in FULL agreement and on board with everything you wrote.
One question I do have in regards to full transparency- does this apply to her having access to my 'stuff' as well? I don't know that I've ever seen that addressed on here. I know that she was the one that had the A and that it's about rebuilding my trust in her, but does it come across as punishing if I have access to her email, etc, but she doesn't have access to mine? For what it's worth, I don't have an issue with being open with my phone/email. Just curious.
Starsky, I was typing while you posted, but wanted you to know that I am in FULL agreement and on board with everything you wrote.
OK, great. Let us know how it goes; we're here to help you!
Just be prepared, she WILL try to stall and "split the difference" with you, and grab the power back. She's learned how to do it, and she's learned that it's EFFECTIVE with you.
Starsky
One question I do have in regards to full transparency- does this apply to her having access to my 'stuff' as well? I don't know that I've ever seen that addressed on here. I know that she was the one that had the A and that it's about rebuilding my trust in her, but does it come across as punishing if I have access to her email, etc, but she doesn't have access to mine? For what it's worth, I don't have an issue with being open with my phone/email. Just curious.
When I suggested to my wife that I would need "proof" she remarked something back to the same effect, I looked her straight in the eyes, unlocked my phone and handed it to her. Doing this showed I was serious, also proved at any given time ... even after almost a year of being separated I have nothing to hide. So in my opinion, I think its fair, if trust is the issue .. it does go both ways as far as I am concerned ... sure DBing is GAL and being mysterious ... but its not like I had 30 women TM me either, I choose activities that I can enjoy, ones I would not be ashamed to include her or my S in later.
One question I do have in regards to full transparency- does this apply to her having access to my 'stuff' as well? I don't know that I've ever seen that addressed on here. I know that she was the one that had the A and that it's about rebuilding my trust in her, but does it come across as punishing if I have access to her email, etc, but she doesn't have access to mine? For what it's worth, I don't have an issue with being open with my phone/email. Just curious.
I would share everything with her other than your legal moves, and maybe the support you get on here. Sure, no problem -- like what said above, "Here's my phone, dear -- I have nothing to hide."
PRIVACY in a marriage is good; SECRETS however, are not.
Starsky
One question I do have in regards to full transparency- does this apply to her having access to my 'stuff' as well? I don't know that I've ever seen that addressed on here. I know that she was the one that had the A and that it's about rebuilding my trust in her, but does it come across as punishing if I have access to her email, etc, but she doesn't have access to mine? For what it's worth, I don't have an issue with being open with my phone/email. Just curious.
When I suggested to my wife that I would need "proof" she remarked something back to the same effect, I looked her straight in the eyes, unlocked my phone and handed it to her. Doing this showed I was serious, also proved at any given time ... even after almost a year of being separated I have nothing to hide. So in my opinion, I think its fair, if trust is the issue .. it does go both ways as far as I am concerned ... sure DBing is GAL and being mysterious ... but its not like I had 30 women TM me either, I choose activities that I can enjoy, ones I would not be ashamed to include her or my S in later.
I like your style, CaliGuy.
Starsky
Checking in, Tarheel. How are things in your world?
Thanks for checking up with me Train.
Several email exchanges in the past couple days, but basically here's where things stand...
W asked about coming over last night to hang with the family (cake eating). Told her I would not 'play house' while she took baby steps to see if her feelings would return. Told her they would not unless we took the necessary steps (MC, no OM contact, etc). She did not come over, but instead used that as an example of why she's upset with me (I'm not willing to work with her). Told her this was the final time I was asking her the question of how she'd like to proceed and any attempt to change the topic, avoid it or not respond would provide me her answer.
W responded saying that she did want to work on things and she would have no problem giving up OM contact, which is why she had asked me what the first step would be. However, our email exchange (me not being willing to budge) was giving her 2nd thoughts again (shell game continues). She's planning on picking the kids up tonight, then after we get them in bed, asked if we could talk.
So a decision WILL be reached tonight. Any lack of commitment on her part when she walks out the door tonight will reveal her true feelings on R and I will be prepared to start D process. If she wants to work on us, I have a list of marriage friendly MCs ready and the no OM contact plan prepared.
I still get the feeling she feels 'pressured' into working things out- financially, family obligation, living arrangements, etc, but I seem to recall Sandi saying she felt similar when she first came to this board.
W responded saying that she did want to work on things and she would have no problem giving up OM contact, which is why she had asked me what the first step would be. However, our email exchange (me not being willing to budge) was giving her 2nd thoughts again (shell game continues).
Your answer to this position should be "I understand; this is very difficult on all of us. But this is what I need in order to feel safe in the marriage again following your affair." (and do not budge)
Starsky
I should have clarified- me not willing to budge on 'allowing' her to come to the house and hang out as 1 big happy family. I knew her motive behind it (see the kids and animals, not me) and what would happen if she did (she'd leave without bringing up any R talk). I simply wasn't having it.
Starsky, not to put the cart before the horse, but so that I'm fully prepared, I'd love to take you up on the offer of helping draft the letter W would need to send to OM.
Unless you have a template, my high level thoughts are basically W needs to tell OM that she has decided to work on her M with me and will need to cease all communication immediately. This includes phone, email, facebook, etc. She can't include any 'I'm sorry..' statements. Anything else??
I'm aware that she needs me to approve and send it.
Looks like you are holding ground .. good for you!
Starsky, not to put the cart before the horse, but so that I'm fully prepared, I'd love to take you up on the offer of helping draft the letter W would need to send to OM.
Unless you have a template, my high level thoughts are basically W needs to tell OM that she has decided to work on her M with me and will need to cease all communication immediately. This includes phone, email, facebook, etc. She can't include any 'I'm sorry..' statements. Anything else??
I'm aware that she needs me to approve and send it.
Tar,
You can google
infidelity affairs "no-contact letter" and get several good templates. It should be brief, to the point, and CLEAR. Something like:
"Dear _______,
I am writing this to tell you that from this point forward, I need to end all contact with you. This includes not only in person, but any phone, email or text messages. I've decided to try to work on my marriage with Tarheel, and I know that our affair has been very hurtful and disrespectful to him and our family.
I would ask that you respect my wishes in this, as my husband and I have a lot of hard work ahead of us if we are to repair these wounds.
(Wife's first name) -- no "Love," "Sincerely" or anything else.
But that's just me. Do google other templates and find something you think is appropriate. The important thing is that it NOT contain anything like "While I enjoyed our time together, I now realize . . . " or "I will always remember you fondly but . . . " -- nothing like that. I purposely used both your first name and the "my husband" part and the "a-word" in order to be painfully honest with the man about his contributions to the damage to your family.
Starsky
I purposely used both your first name and the "my husband" part and the "a-word" in order to be painfully honest with the man about his contributions to the damage to your family.
Is it not a good idea to add the other 'a-word' too?
I was thinking more in lines of another name for a donkey...
I wish I'd had this site a year ago. My H's "no contact" (ha!) letter was practically a soliloquy of "farewell my love" and included a reply in the same vein. No wonder I ended up where I am.
Keep fighting the good fight, Tarheel.
I am liking this new-and-improved Tarheel!!!
THIS is a man who lovingly commands respect.
Bravo.
Stay strong!!
Fwiw, Tar, our NC letter is in my thread titled, "Looking up at the mountain ahead," I believe.
I'm not on my computer. If someone else is and can easily find it and link it here for Tar, that'd be great. But it was pretty standard. Very short and sweet.
Fwiw, Tar, our NC letter is in my thread titled, "Looking up at the mountain ahead," I believe.
I'm not on my computer. If someone else is and can easily find it and link it here for Tar, that'd be great. But it was pretty standard. Very short and sweet.
Ask, and ye shall receive:
OW,
As I've already explained, our relationship is over. It was a mistake, built on lies and deceit, and it hurt my wife and children very much. I am committed to Train and my children and to repairing my relationships with them.
Do not contact me any more. I will also not be contacting you.
I have committed to being fully open, honest and transparent with Train about my affair with you. To that end, any attempts on your part to contact me – if you choose not to respect my wishes of no-contact - will be immediately shared with my wife, just as I've openly shared with her the texts you've sent this week.
Sincerely,
H
Any update tonight Tarheel?
Good timing- W just left. We agreed to try to work on things.
We had family dinner, helped kids with homework, then got them in bed. W started yawning and complaining about how much she had to do tomorrow, so I thought for sure she'd leave without talking with me. But she sat down and asked if I wanted to talk.
Conversation had its ups and downs. We'd start going into difficult topics, but then would agree that we should probably wait until MC.
So W asked me to find a MC and set that up. She also agreed no OM contact. I told her that involved writing a letter for me to approve and send as well as both of us sharing emails, passwords, etc. She was fully on board, which really surprised me. W left and we hugged goodbye. Family bday party tomorrow and we talked about trying to go out on some dates upcoming.
Now the hard work begins- discussing some very difficult topics. My biggest hang up will be with OM, where as W will be more focused on the past 15 yr dynamic. With all I've read and learned, I feel confident in addressing how I contributed to the M failure.
Feeling good about tonight, but am well aware of the possible starts and stops, so trying to control my expectations.
Good timing- W just left. We agreed to try to work on things.
We had family dinner, helped kids with homework, then got them in bed. W started yawning and complaining about how much she had to do tomorrow, so I thought for sure she'd leave without talking with me. But she sat down and asked if I wanted to talk.
Conversation had its ups and downs. We'd start going into difficult topics, but then would agree that we should probably wait until MC.
So W asked me to find a MC and set that up. She also agreed no OM contact. I told her that involved writing a letter for me to approve and send as well as both of us sharing emails, passwords, etc. She was fully on board, which really surprised me. W left and we hugged goodbye. Family bday party tomorrow and we talked about trying to go out on some dates upcoming.
Now the hard work begins- discussing some very difficult topics. My biggest hang up will be with OM, where as W will be more focused on the past 15 yr dynamic. With all I've read and learned, I feel confident in addressing how I contributed to the M failure.
Feeling good about tonight, but am well aware of the possible starts and stops, so trying to control my expectations.
Tarheel,
So happy for your recent developments. Your doing great. Keep up the good work!
Dev
Ask, and ye shall receiveStarsky, you're the best!
Now the hard work beginsAnd it *is* HARD work, Tarheel! But it's worth it.
Keep us apprised!
