Original Thread You need to start a new thread.
BTW, the thing with DB is that you need to change your strategy based on your situation. In your case LRT wouldn't necessarily work because YOU were the one that had multiple affairs. She has no reason to "miss" you or want to be with you because of that.
I see. What would you suggest MrBond? Maybe a little pursuit wouldn't hurt in this case. My DB coach even said a little pursuit is OK, because it would be a 180. If I just sprinkle it in gently (after multiple consecutive "good" days), it could help.
Her love language is acts of service. Thinking back, I realize that the more I give, the more she wants to give back (even now). Thoughtfulness is repaid with thoughtfulness. My love language is physical affection. She does not know about 5LL and I don't think I should tell her about it (way too soon) until she's hinted at possible reconciliation.
Original Thread You need to start a new thread.
BTW, the thing with DB is that you need to change your strategy based on your situation. In your case LRT wouldn't necessarily work because YOU were the one that had multiple affairs. She has no reason to "miss" you or want to be with you because of that.
I see. What would you suggest MrBond?
Maybe a little pursuit wouldn't hurt in this case. My DB coach even said a little pursuit is OK, because it would be a 180. If I just sprinkle it in gently (after multiple consecutive "good" days), it could help.
Soooooo, Your DB coach said some pursuit is OK b/c it would be a 180...and you want to know IF that's a good idea? IF YOUR DB COACH MAKES A SUGGESTION, TAKE IT. Don't shop around for disagreement with your coach.
All we ask is that you not "edit" what your coach says and to tell your coach the same things you tell US, so we are all on the same page. But we defer to the coach, when there is actual dispute. I don't think there is.
In fact, I think we've been saying similar things the whole time!
You're the one who wants to insist that you "must" go LRT ---- b/c SHE had an affair. (nothing about your prior affairS...just her single one).
I continue to dispute that in your situation. I think you are looking for a method that requires the least risk to your ego. Seems to me with your past infidelities, your ego is probably the underlying cause of a lot of your problems today, and in the past.
Plus, you have NOT tried other approaches with consistency OR enough time to justify going LRT on her at this point.
I don't see "Too much pursuit" as being your problem. Too many attempts to control her, YES, but not genuine changes in you, not sincere outreach to her, not deep reflections....
lots of resistance and lots of defensiveness in you. That's what I'm picking up, and the elephant in the room of course, the hypocrisy of your double standards.
Her love language is acts of service. Thinking back, I realize that the more I give, the more she wants to give back (even now).
That^^ is called SUCCESS....OMG, follow up on that!!Thoughtfulness is repaid with thoughtfulness.
Yes, that ^^ is how it usually works. Maybe not when you were having your escorts but I'm sure you'll agree the escorts were about you, not your w. So, being kind is met with kindness. Minds, does that surprise you and if so, why do you believe that it was a surprise? What was your parents marriage like?
How was forgiveness modeled in your childhood and family? My love language is physical affection. She does not know about 5LL and I don't think I should tell her about it (way too soon) until she's hinted at possible reconciliation.
I agree that you should NOT tell her about YOUR NEEDS now. I suspect she knows them b/c I think you've told her in so many ways that she failed to meet them (unless you agreed that your affairs were about YOU and your ego, and not about her)
But assuming she knew, still, it's VERY hard to believe that a woman would feel sexual or affectionate if she believes a man is cheating on her, let alone repeatedly.
And though you may believe she did not know of the multiple affairs, I can say with certainty that she picked up on your "outside interests" at the very least.
I am personally positive that she was neglected and felt that way, as every woman with a cheating h has so informed me. (Yes, every single one. No w has said "Oh h met all my needs and WE were so happy so I was shocked to see him cheating". She may be shocked b/c she thought more of her h, but I've never been told by a betrayed wife that the reason she was shocked was due to how "kind and attentive" her h was)
Safe to say that feeling neglected is no recipe for a woman to feel "in the mood".
Underlying trust in our mate, increases our libido by 1000%.
Or to put it another way, doubting that our spouse has been or is being faithful to us, puts a dagger into the "loving mood" we might have had just hours before.
Sometimes it's fatal. Sometimes it's just a damn deep wound that festers, and sometimes, when we are lucky AND when we work very hard, it's a wound that heals...
**Keep doing your work. And that includes having a lot more patience.
You said your affairs went on for about 5 years, right? OR they ended 5 years ago?
Are you saying that 6 months or one year of her having an affair is "too long" for you to work on yourself? That You "must" file b/c she is cheating? What does your DB coach say about that?
I just want to be clear on your parameters. I don't really understand them at this time.
25 - Regarding the previous question about the LRT -- I reviewed the section in the DR book again last night. The heading is "REREAD THE LAST-RESORT TECHNIQUE" which immediately follows the section titled "WHEN S/HE WON'T END THE AFFAIR". This in on pages 215-217.
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but it seems to me that MWD is clearly suggesting to follow the LRT under this particular situation.
My DB coach said a little bit of pursuit in the right circumstances (i.e. after consecutive "good days") is OK as long as I'm careful and very mindful of her reactions. The LRT specifically says to avoid pursuit. So this is where my approach differs from a "pure" LRT.
I continue to dispute that in your situation. I think you are looking for a method that requires the least risk to your ego. Seems to me with your past infidelities, your ego is probably the underlying cause of a lot of your problems today, and in the past.
While I agree with you about my past, I'll have to disagree with you regarding the present. If you had said this to me even a couple weeks ago, you would be correct. However, at this point, I have completely set aside my pride and ego. I just want to do what works.
I don't see "Too much pursuit" as being your problem. Too many attempts to control her, YES, but not genuine changes in you, not sincere outreach to her, not deep reflections....
lots of resistance and lots of defensiveness in you. That's what I'm picking up, and the elephant in the room of course, the hypocrisy of your double standards.
Agreed. I am working on that. I think I've actually made vast improvements just in the last 5 days.
That^^ is called SUCCESS....OMG, follow up on that!!
Yes, that ^^ is how it usually works. Maybe not when you were having your escorts but I'm sure you'll agree the escorts were about you, not your w. So, being kind is met with kindness. Minds, does that surprise you and if so, why do you believe that it was a surprise? What was your parents marriage like?
How was forgiveness modeled in your childhood and family?
I think part of the problem is that I know how smart she is. Because of this, I get suspicious about everything she does. "What is she trying to do here?" is a question I ask myself every time she seems to be extra nice to me, or wants to spend time with me, etc. However, with that said, perhaps most of that is in my head, because
I'M actually the person who is calculated and manipulative here, and I may be
assuming that my wife also posesses those traits because of how smart and successful she is, how well she can read people, and how she always seems to be thinking three moves ahead with regard to everything in her life. It took a lot of calculated deception and manipulation for me to pull off 5 years of selfishness to fulfill my sexual addiction. I'm assuming the same with her, when historically speaking, she has never shown any proof of such.
I agree that you should NOT tell her about YOUR NEEDS now. I suspect she knows them b/c I think you've told her in so many ways that she failed to meet them (unless you agreed that your affairs were about YOU and your ego, and not about her)
I have told her exactly that (recently) -- that it was about me and not about her.
You said your affairs went on for about 5 years, right? OR they ended 5 years ago?
Are you saying that 6 months or one year of her having an affair is "too long" for you to work on yourself? That You "must" file b/c she is cheating? What does your DB coach say about that?
I just want to be clear on your parameters. I don't really understand them at this time.
It went on for about 5 years (2006-2011).
I am not saying 6 months to a year of her having an affair is too long to work on myself. I have no intention of filing.
"Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but it seems to me that MWD is clearly suggesting to follow the LRT under this particular situation."
No you are misinterpreting. Just because the section follows another, doesn't mean that you follow those steps in that particular order. 25 has been here awhile and you seem to enjoy thinking YOUR interpretation is correct.
" If you had said this to me even a couple weeks ago, you would be correct. However, at this point, I have completely set aside my pride and ego. I just want to do what works."
Just those last two sentences show how little you've learned and how much your ego is very much there. "I" just want do do what works" ... how selfish is that? You are still trying to figure out how to manipulate your W into loving you. You still haven't addressed HER hurt despite everything you say.
"Agreed. I am working on that. I think I've actually made vast improvements just in the last 5 days."
5 days? That's laughable. No habit that you've accumulated over a lifetime of doing, changes in 5 days.
"I'm assuming the same with her, when historically speaking, she has never shown any proof of such."
AGAIN it shows how little you've learned. You see it as "manipulation" on her part. Bottom line is that she wants a guy who treats her with respect. Being with someone who has had numerous A's in 5 YEARS shatters her self respect. You don't seem to understand the severity of that. You say you do and will still argue with us that you do, but it's obvious you don't.
"I am not saying 6 months to a year of her having an affair is too long to work on myself. I have no intention of filing."
But you seem to have every intention of implying she's a "slut" for wanting to be with someone who respects her. You seem to downplay that alot in your posts. Let's face it. That's how you view her right now because she has OM.
No you are misinterpreting. Just because the section follows another, doesn't mean that you follow those steps in that particular order. 25 has been here awhile and you seem to enjoy thinking YOUR interpretation is correct.
From page 215 in DR...
"In Chapter 6, I wrote about the last-resort technique. Re-read that section (page 124), because everything I wrote there applies here as well."I'd like to know
your interpretation of that ^.
Just those last two sentences show how little you've learned and how much your ego is very much there. "I" just want do do what works" ... how selfish is that? You are still trying to figure out how to manipulate your W into loving you. You still haven't addressed HER hurt despite everything you say.
I'm selfish because I want to follow a system that will improve my mental state and self-esteem, and also potentially get my wife back and keep my family intact?! You lost me there.
5 days? That's laughable. No habit that you've accumulated over a lifetime of doing, changes in 5 days.
I said "I'm working on that" and that "I made vast improvements". I didn't say "I changed". I still have a long way to go.
E-mail exchange from this morning
Me:
I just wanted to let you know how proud I am of you after getting that raise. Admittedly, I had mixed feelings when you told me on Monday due to our current circumstances. But deep down, I wanted nothing more than to give you a big hug and kiss!
It seems that you are finally calling the shots in your career and are poised to really take off. After everything you had to endure in your final years at [her old company], you deserve this.
Her Response:
Thanks honey. I feel the same about your prospect [at the new company I'm about to accept an offer from]. I hope August is a good month for us, despite everything.
"Admittedly, I had mixed feelings when you told me on Monday due to our current circumstances."
More of your control. She got a raise. Be happy for her. Period. You didn't like it because she would be more independent of you and your control.
You can't seem to get rid of that.
Just a little while ago, my WAW e-mailed me suggesting an overnight stay in a nearby tourist island (small beach town) for Labor Day weekend. I assume she meant with the family (+ 2 kids), but she wasn't specific. I highly doubt she meant just the two of us.
10 days ago, we had a conversation regarding an already-booked week-long vacation coming up in a couple of weeks. She said she didn't want to go for two reasons. First, heavy workload. Second, she feels weird given the circumstances and noted that she would feel uncomfortable being around my brother and SIL (they booked the same trip with us). She knows this was a trip that I was looking forward to, and she felt bad about not going. I was very understanding about her decision, and she thanked me for that.
More of your control. She got a raise. Be happy for her. Period. You didn't like it because she would be more independent of you and your control.
You can't seem to get rid of that.
No. I didn't like it because the person who gave her the raise is the OM.
Btw, she makes nearly 2X the money that I do and has always had an inter-dependent relationship with me, where as I had a very dependent relationship with her.
While she is still cordial with me, I sense a bit of her giving me a cold shoulder this morning. Nothing really changed. I think maybe I'm overreacting/over-analyzing.
I made her dinner on Monday night. Tuesday night, I asked if she's coming home for dinner. Wednesday night, I did the same. This time I told her what I'm making and asked for an ETA. She replied that she's having dinner with her team but will have a little of what I made when she comes home, and will pack it for lunch tomorrow. She came home after 8pm and did have a piece. Told me it was delicious. This morning, very cold to me. No friendly "good morning" like yesterday. I know that she didn't sleep well. She has developed a cough and our kids woke up a couple of times in the middle of the night, disturbing her.
Part of me thinks I may be doing too much (i.e. pursuing) by preparing food for her. But she's been coming home late from work and doesn't take time to eat dinner sometimes (she's trying to lose weight). She's 5'7" and 120 lbs.
Again, I may be overthinking the situation here.
Previously (several weeks ago), my WAW has made it clear that she doesn't want me attending any of her family's functions. She thinks it would be awkward/uncomfortable. She even made mention that she will be bringing the OM to the annual X-mas party (on her family's side), which I've been attending for 18 years straight.
One of her cousins is hosting a birthday party for her young daughter this weekend. Last week, she made mention of this and said that she will be taking our two kids to this party (insinuating that I won't be coming).
Just a few minutes ago, I asked about this weekend's schedule/plans and noted the birthday party for her cousin's daughter.
She replies, "I'd like for you to come on Sunday, if you'd like to. We can grab dinner afterwards. Let me know."
I reply, "OK, sounds like a plan."
Progress? Maybe. Can't get too excited.
Baby steps, Mindsin...Baby steps...
She's mentioned that she's going to bring OM to her family X-mas party? Haha - THAT sounds like someone who has just recently started an affair. Tuck that away and see what happens in Dec. As my IC says - don't throw everything into the kitchen sink yet.
W is 5'7" and 120 and trying to lose weight? YIKES. That sounds a little destructive. I wouldn't talk to her about it if I were you, but scary...
I think it's great that she invited you along to the birthday party. Do you want to go? Would it be a 180 if you didn't go? What if you had something else to do that day? I'm not saying you change your plans if you've already told her that you're coming, but that's an option.
Don't worry about the cold shoulder. Ride the waves. Detach.
I do want to go, because I enjoy spending time as a family. She knows this so I don't see any real reason for me to try to act any differently (IMO). It would certainly be a 180 if I told her I didn't want to go.
In the beginning (after the bomb), most of my crying and begging centered on the break-up of our family unit (how we will not be going on vacations together anymore, etc). There was Less focus on actually losing her as my wife, until later on.
I know I'm only 6 weeks in, so speaking in terms of "beginning" and "later on" may sound absurd to most people here.
You're new. It takes a long time to sort this stuff out. But even six weeks in there is a beginning and later on.
Not absurd. We were there once.
In the beginning (after the bomb), most of my crying and begging centered on the break-up of our family unit (how we will not be going on vacations together anymore, etc). There was Less focus on actually losing her as my wife, until later on.
Although I didn't actually do any begging, much of my thought process has been on the breakup of the family unit, how it will affect the kids, etc. Much less on the loss of a H, even now. Hmmmm.....something to think about.
25 - Sorry, I didn't see your final post in the old thread. I'll respond to that shortly.
Just reading your issue with dinner. ... stop calling her and pursuing asking when .. ETA ... all that .. just cook, if she makes it home and eats great .. if not pack that stuff up in the fridge and let her help herself if she is hungry. that would be a good 180 for you IMHO
I know its hard ... I cooked for the family for years with her gone it removed that issue, I made alot of those types of mistakes early on and wished I would have found this place, the books, and all the advice 7 months ago I might be much further along than where I am now, I had windows to pull some strong positives but did not have the tool box ... you do ... USE IT
Good Luck.
So what 180s and other approaches and techniques have you tried for long enough to monitor, and know they failed?
I didn't see ANY.
To be honest, I've been looking at various different approaches (including DB) to deal with my situation from day 1. I've been torn by extremes (one site recommends to "blow up" the affair at her workplace, to all her family, etc. in an effort to "shock" her into getting out of her fog).
It wasn't until the middle of last week that I became 100% committed to DB. Wednesday, July 30, to be exact.
There was only one 180 that I did consistently since day 1 -- Helping out around the house (chores, etc) in an effort to give her more free time to spend with the kids, herself, and yes, even the OM.
Her reactions -- Some positive, some negative.
The negative comes as a result of mistakes I've made (arguing, passive-aggressive words/behavior, controlling, etc.). During one argument, she said, "don't think I'm going to come back to you just because you're doing a bunch of chores now".
Example of positive -- I asked if she could watch the kids for a whole day so I could spend a day with my friends. She responds, "Yes. You need a break and deserve some leisure time with your friends."
Since my commitment to DB, I've added the following techniques/approaches:
1. Drastically reduced the amount of communication I initiate (phone calls, texts, e-mails).
2. Completely eliminated all talk of the OM/OMW.
3. Completely eliminated all talk of our relationship/marriage.
4. Shown little to no interest in her whereabouts or her life outside of me or the kids (e.g. Asked nothing about her visit to her cousin or friend over the weekend).
5. Never showed anger, despair, or hurt in front of her.
6. Approached conflicts/disagreements with a very "solution-oriented" approach. Example: When she got fed up the other night because she couldn't get her daughter to sleep (the night when the OM returned from a 5 day out of state trip, she was very anxious to go see him and spend the night in his hotel room). She basically "dumped" our daughter on me and left the house. I didn't criticize her. I said nothing. The very next night, I told her that I was going to try a different approach to get our daughter to sleep by herself. I simply took action, without blaming or criticizing.
So you are saying YOU don't need to try the other approaches b/c of HER affair...how convenient for you to get to skip steps the rest of us had to slog thru...
See, it doesn't really matter to ME that you found a sentence or two that MAY support your strategy, (but I'd sure like to see the context of that remark)
b/c I just read the whole section on LRT, and it did not even mention affairs making a difference.
So I doubt that having an affair "mandates" skipping the steps of DBing and going right to LRT.
I could be wrong of course. But I think there is always an argument FOR trying what works for everyone else, and NOT insisting that your situation is so unusual that the rules don't apply to YOU.
I'm slogging through it as we speak. It's only been a week. Btw, I don't think the LRT is a shortcut anyways. That's not how I read it at least. Also, please refer to page 215 in DR.
"In Chapter 6, I wrote about the last-resort technique. Re-read that section (page 124), because everything I wrote there applies here as well."That ^ to me, tells me that in a situation where your spouse won't end the affair, use the LRT.
The only unusual thing about your situation is your personal history of infidelity AND how hypocritically you have approached your wife's single affair.
I would love to see some progress in that area, b/c otherwise I don't hold out much hope that you will turn this around.
I'm not sure what you define as "progress". I've already expressed remorse for my infidelity. I'm dealing with my wife's single affair because that is the current situation we're in. Am I supposed to simply ignore the fact that she is
actively cheating on me right now? I'm approaching it no differently than anyone else whose wife has betrayed him. If you want to tag me as "hypocritical" due to my past, then fine. But I'm not the one who is engaging in infidelity
right now.
I respect your wisdom and advice, but we clearly don't see eye to eye with regard to infidelity. Maybe it's because you're speaking from a woman's PoV and can see things from my wife's perspective in a way that I'll never be able to. I don't know. But it seems to me that you think two wrongs make a right. I disagree wholeheartedly.
Just reading your issue with dinner. ... stop calling her and pursuing asking when .. ETA ... all that .. just cook, if she makes it home and eats great .. if not pack that stuff up in the fridge and let her help herself if she is hungry. that would be a good 180 for you IMHO
I know its hard ... I cooked for the family for years with her gone it removed that issue, I made alot of those types of mistakes early on and wished I would have found this place, the books, and all the advice 7 months ago I might be much further along than where I am now, I had windows to pull some strong positives but did not have the tool box ... you do ... USE IT
Good Luck.
Great suggestion CaliGuy. I appreciate it!
With me though, I've rarely cooked dinner for the family. I started doing so as a way to show her that I appreciate the long hours that she's working to help support the family and she shouldn't have to worry about what to eat when she comes home at night.
You're right. I should simply tell her that I'm making [whatever] tonight. If she doesn't come home in time, then she has leftovers she can take to work for lunch, etc.
"Am I supposed to simply ignore the fact that she is actively cheating on me right now? I'm approaching it no differently than anyone else whose wife has betrayed him. If you want to tag me as "hypocritical" due to my past, then fine. But I'm not the one who is engaging in infidelity right now."
This part stands out. The issue is that alot of this stemmed from your infidelity which you seemed perfectly fine with when you were in it. The problem is that you seem to come down 10x's harder down on her for this one affair with a guy who she feels respects her, when you had multiple A's and she didn't go after you with the same intensity as you are now.
It really does seem like you have a do as I say and not as I do attitude when it comes to her A. Unlike your A's, you pretty much pushed her into her one by sweeping things under the rug and not truly understanding her POV.
This part stands out. The issue is that alot of this stemmed from your infidelity which you seemed perfectly fine with when you were in it. The problem is that you seem to come down 10x's harder down on her for this one affair with a guy who she feels respects her, when you had multiple A's and she didn't go after you with the same intensity as you are now.
But the key factor here is timing. I had an addiction to escorts/massage parlors, which I ended three years ago.
If a former gang member warns younger kids in his neighborhood about joining a gang, does that make him a hippocrite?
She didn't go after me with the same intensity? I'm coming down 10x harder? How do you know that?
Besides, the difference is, I showed remorse after each time I got caught. I told her I would stop. I never had intentions of leaving my wife or breaking apart my family. I was simply cake eating. I still wanted to be her husband and I wanted desperately to stop. I just didn't know how. I didn't realize the amount of pain I was causing her. In no way am I excusing what I did though.
She's saying, "I'm in an affair, and I'm not going to stop. If you don't like it, too bad." Do you not see the difference, because it's clear as day to me.
You could certainly say that my past actions led to her current action. That's fair. But at the end of the day, engaging in an affair and deciding to continue the affair is a conscious adult decision.
It really does seem like you have a do as I say and not as I do attitude when it comes to her A. Unlike your A's, you pretty much pushed her into her one by sweeping things under the rug and not truly understanding her POV.
You mean, "do as I say, and not as I
DID". Big difference.
While I agree that my past led to her having this affair, it was still her choice to make.
You seem to believe that affairs are excusable. They're not -- not hers, and certainly not mine.
I've apologized for my past mistakes. I'm not asking for an apology from my wife. Maybe I was before, but not anymore. I'm done playing the blame game. I've accepted the circumstances as they are and I'm moving forward.
Presented with an awkward text message
During lunch, my W texts me:
"Some college guy just tried picking me up. Haha. Still got it, I guess"
Ok, I was stuck. I literally was sitting there for 5 minutes staring at my phone, formulating a response. My first few choice responses would have been reactionary, passive/aggressive, sarcastic, snarky, etc. Not good.
Maybe I should just respond with something like "Haha" or "LOL". Keep it light-hearted.
Then I thought, what if I just don't respond? But then, in this case, even silence says something.
Then I texted back: "Yes. My wife is very beautiful."
Ugh! Mistake? I don't know. She hasn't responded back yet.
Presented with an awkward text message
During lunch, my W texts me:
"Some college guy just tried picking me up. Haha. Still got it, I guess"
Ok, I was stuck. I literally was sitting there for 5 minutes staring at my phone, formulating a response. My first few choice responses would have been reactionary, passive/aggressive, sarcastic, snarky, etc. Not good.
Maybe I should just respond with something like "Haha" or "LOL". Keep it light-hearted.
Then I thought, what if I just don't respond? But then, in this case, even silence says something.
Then I texted back: "Yes. My wife is very beautiful."
Ugh! Mistake? I don't know. She hasn't responded back yet.
Tough one ... I received a text a few weeks ago from WAW who was having issues at work and said something along the lines, "Well if they fire me atleast I am wearing this cute little black dress" .... my wife is very attractive, I replied well later with something small like a LOL or a Yeah? type thing ... but did not take the bait.
Look at it this way, maybe she was fishing for a compliment from her H ... that's good, leave it at that and take the positive. if your first response would have been snarky, this is a 180 for you ... another good ... baby steps .. keep at it.
It would only have been snarky because of my situation. My mind is going nuts right now wondering how she let the young guy down.
"Sorry, I'm married."
"Sorry, I'm involved with someone else."
"Sorry, I'm taken."
Ahhhhh!!!!!
More family time
Wife asked me if I wanted to have dinner tonight (w/the kids). She seems to be very interested in spending family time as of late.
At the very beginning (6 weeks ago), she wanted to make sure we spend one day a week as a family. We even took a mini weekend trip to an out-of-state theme park. Since the numerous mistakes I've made over the following days and weeks, family time has become less and less of a focal point for her. She'd rather spend time by herself with the kids than the four of us together as a family. She's shown this in her actions as well as bluntly telling me this one day.
Since I committed 100% to DB (9 days ago), she has almost completely shifted her attitude with regard to this. I always allow her to initiate suggestions regarding family time. I never bring it up.
- Going out more often (on her suggestion)
- Weekend getaways (Labor Day weekend)
- Invitations to her family's events (change of heart on me coming to cousin's daughter's b-day party)
I'm going to stay the course and see where this leads. Keep doing what's working. I have a long LONG road to travel, but I'm starting to like the way this path is looking.
"But the key factor here is timing. I had an addiction to escorts/massage parlors, which I ended three years ago."
This is a point that you seem to refuse to acknowledge. It DOESN'T MATTER that it ended just three years ago. I can tell you as a victim of an A and ask anyone else here for that matter, that the effects of an A are felt for MANY years after.
You just want to keep sweeping that fact under the rug. It doesn't matter why you had them. The fact of the matter is that you betrayed her trust multiple times. PERIOD.
No one is bringing up that fact to rub it in your face as you keep suggesting. The posters are bringing it up because that is an important action that deep down affects your W and needs to be addressed by you by re-establishing that lost trust slowly. Because you adamantly refuse to acknowledge or want to sweep your A's under the rug because YOU find them painful, you don't acknowledge that pain. You still talk about yourself and YOUR pain when your W is the one who has been hurting for years.
MAJOR Setback
Yesterday, my wife and I enjoyed a nice dinner together -- just the two of us. I tried my best to avoid conversations about my feelings, and about the situation. She kept trying to bring it up. It was almost as if she was interrogating me.
Afterwards, I found out why.
It appears that she's been snooping through my phone since last week (not sure which day). I'm not sure how she got the password, but no matter. She went through my text message and e-mail history.
She learned that:
1. I've been speaking to a woman I met online. She too is divorced and going through the same thing (WAS). We've been sharing each other's stories and providing each other emotional support. I have no romantic interest in this woman and we're both in situations where we want our spouses back.
2. I've looked through her phone call records. Her line is under my account. This explains the visit to the AT&T store last Sunday to get the account switched over.
She was furious about both things. She said that she gave me chances to "fess up" during dinner. It explained why she was interrogating me.
During her blow-up, she said, "I told you I'm ok if you dated. In fact, I encourage it."
I'm NOT dating anyone! She's insinuating that I am because I've been texting with a strange woman. I can see how she would come to that conclusion, but she came to that conclusion on her own without talking to me about it.
She's angry that I invaded her privacy, but she has no problem invading mine. Even looking back (after BD), she always asked me about the conversations I had with my best friend and my family. When I tell her that I want to keep that conversation to myself, she gets upset. Yet, I never asked her regarding details of her conversations to the friends/family that she spoke to. It was only last night at dinner that she offered the information.
I am mostly shocked about how she was able to carry on like nothing was wrong for 10 days and decided to blow this up in my face only last night. All the nice days we've shared, the enjoyment of family time, the nice words that were exchanged on a day-to-day basis. Were they all a lie? Were they all a ploy?
I'm totally stunned and I'm not sure what to do next.
I'm going to keep following DB because I can't lose focus of my primary goal -- mental health. Getting my wife back is secondary, especially now.
Not exactly sure what you're "shocked" about. She checked up on you because you kept insisting that you had changed, yet she wanted to be sure because of your prior A history. Lo and behold, she found out that you were sharing intimate secrets with another woman. This is just a consequence of your inability to understand how your W feels.
She never trusted you again since your A's. You don't seem to get that. Yet you are shocked and feel violated that she would look at your phone when you went out of your way to contact the OM's W and expose your W.
You still refuse to see how you are causing all of this.
Wow...are you for real?
Mindsink, you are indeed causing all of this, blindly oblivious to our warnings.
You ignore Bond's advice at your peril.
The good news is you could POSSIBLY change course.
Just b/c your wife did not leave you years ago, there is no excuse for how you treat her now. You are still Not being a good or truly faithful h.
Last WEEK You
wanted to date OWs...b/c after all, you said "there is no guarantee" (that your wife would return to you, so why bother trying? B/c being kind to her is so...HARD???)
Do you remember last week? We do. You keep covering your bases w/OWs, so there will always be a Plan B for You, (b/c God knows you must have a back up woman at all times... to make you feel....what??)
I remain stunned by your apparent need for female attention at all times --and as soon as it wanes or ebbs,then you cheat, or you date -or you post online, and or you want to do all the above.
(Granted, you cheated on your wife even while you were getting attention so there's that. Oh wait, you said that's b/c you had an addiction, so never mind.
Mindsink, Have you ever been alone? Was being alone a nightmare for you?
It sure looks as if you just have to have a woman on your arm...which does not appear to be very secure.
And it's not the way to get AND KEEP a woman.
Here again is a letter a WAW wrote to a man on these boards.
That man was an LBS. He could not understand why his wife would not return to him,
since he had made a number of changes within (which we all applauded) AND he could not grasp why his w would still give the OM a second look...
So here is that letter for you to read in the waning hope that you will SEE YOURSELF in this letter --
and turn this thing around while there MAY still be a chance. But I worry that you may have pushed your wife too far this time...AND remember that you have been in this situation a mere 6 WEEKS and "committed to DBing" ("
committed" to DBing WHILE having yet another inappropriate R with OW...)
SMH
SIDENOTE: I'm sincerely asking, Do you know what is not appropriate for you with OW? B/C I honestly don't think you do.
How did your parents interact and how was their m? Think about that.
FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….
When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.
I even got chills when she talked about OWs, because I've been there and done that. Of course, my H cheated, then left, adding an extra crunchy layer of goodness to my sitch.
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.
Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.
So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.
Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.
And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.
Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.
You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.
And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "WIN".
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to "win".
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
_________________________Mindsink,
I do not believe you are a "mean" man. I think you may have pushed your wife too far this time. WE know and you probably admit, you have been a lousy h. I Can't speak to your fathering skills, but I pray none of your kids know about the prostitutes you hired and "interacted" with, for years....
But I DO think you have hurt your wife exponentially more than you can or will admit.
Til you can do at least that, how are you going to get anywhere with any of this?
BTW, you never mentioned that you were talking to an OW. If you were and had been open about it here on the boards, we would have warned against it which would have prevented this latest blowup.
Also, after your A's, did you give your W FULL transparency in that she was allowed to check your email and phone any time she wished? If not, then you don't understand what her insecurities were. The fact that you are "shocked" by this shows again that you are unwilling to address her pain of the past. That is the key to your situation. If you continue to argue here about what the point is of doing that (because it's hurtful TO YOU - selfish reasons), then we can't help you any further.
25 - Everything in your post is spot on. The part about being alone particularly struck a chord. I literally went from living with my parents to living with my wife. I've never been independent. I've never been on my own.
There is really nothing else I can do at this point except bow my head in shame.
You have exposed my inner self in a way that I, nor anyone else in my life has ever been able to. I thank you for that.
Also, after your A's, did you give your W FULL transparency in that she was allowed to check your email and phone any time she wished? If not, then you don't understand what her insecurities were.
I never explicitly gave her full transparency, nor did she ever ask for it.
Also, after your A's, did you give your W FULL transparency in that she was allowed to check your email and phone any time she wished? If not, then you don't understand what her insecurities were.
I never explicitly gave her full transparency, nor did she ever ask for it.
Why not? You sound like a little boy who points the finger at someone else crying.. "he hit me first!"
Idiot.
I cannot stand this tit for tat.
But you are confusing people with your spin (and maybe a desperate need to be declared the "victor" here, but I am not in a contest with you)
No you are misinterpreting. Just because the section follows another, doesn't mean that you follow those steps in that particular order. 25 has been here awhile and you seem to enjoy thinking YOUR interpretation is correct.
From page 215 in DR...
"In Chapter 6, I wrote about the last-resort technique. Re-read that section (page 124), because everything I wrote there applies here as well."I'd like to know
your interpretation of that ^.
Mindsink, I actually went back and read it again and I stand by my take on it.
Look at the quote right there^^. "...everything I wrote there applies here as well..." and "there" means the earlier pages, and in those pages she says you must
exhaust the other approaches FIRST --BEFORE you go to LRT...even if there is an A, and even if the spouse does not want to end it.
That is why the LRT stands for "LAST resort" not "first resort", or 3rd or "approach when you feel frustrated..."resort
She also says NOT to mention the OM at all. Stop thinking/talking or referring to him. Period. (Including in the pages you cite above, she says Not to do that).
So there should be no confusion remaining in you about mentioning him or discussing him with anyone again....don't.
Just those last two sentences show how little you've learned and how much your ego is very much there. "I" just want do do what works" ... how selfish is that? You are still trying to figure out how to manipulate your W into loving you. You still haven't addressed HER hurt despite everything you say.
I'm selfish because I want to follow a system that will improve my mental state and self-esteem, and also potentially get my wife back and keep my family intact?! You lost me there.
5 days? That's laughable. No habit that you've accumulated over a lifetime of doing, changes in 5 days.
I said "I'm working on that" and that "I made vast improvements". I didn't say "I changed". I still have a long way to go.
Mind,
3 questions.
1. Does Either family know about your past with the prostitutes?
2. How have you changed, and can you please list specific behaviors or actions that you have changed?
NOT things that you "won't do again" but that you have already stopped doing AND OR changed.
And
3. how have your attitudes or opinions changed? Have they?
"I never explicitly gave her full transparency, nor did she ever ask for it."
THIS is a BIG reason why you're still in this mess. Didn't the two of you go to C after your A's were discovered? The NUMBER ONE thing that she needed from you was FULL transparency. That would have helped to heal things faster and re-established trust. You should have allowed her full access to all of your emails and cell phone when ever and where ever she asked for it.
If you didn't do this, you didn't understand what she needed to heal.
Are you willing to let her do that now?
Why not? You sound like a little boy who points the finger at someone else crying.. "he hit me first!"
Idiot.
Because I didn't understand trust, let alone how to rebuild it.
Are you willing to let her do that now?
Yes. I don't think I have anything left to hide at this point, unless I start doing something new to hide behind her back.
Well, that's not entirely true. She doesn't know about DB, or my postings here. I don't know if it's something I should share with her.
THIS is a BIG reason why you're still in this mess. Didn't the two of you go to C after your A's were discovered? The NUMBER ONE thing that she needed from you was FULL transparency. That would have helped to heal things faster and re-established trust. You should have allowed her full access to all of your emails and cell phone when ever and where ever she asked for it.
If you didn't do this, you didn't understand what she needed to heal.
We went to one session of C after the 3rd time she caught me. It was mildly productive. I remember being very defensive, very self-righteous, and not truly making an effort to understand her feelings. (Kind of like now, unfortunately)
Mind,
3 questions.
1. Does Either family know about your past with the prostitutes?
2. How have you changed, and can you please list specific behaviors or actions that you have changed?
NOT things that you "won't do again" but that you have already stopped doing AND OR changed.
And
3. how have your attitudes or opinions changed? Have they?
1. People who know: Both sets of parents, my brother, my best friend, two of her friends, one of her cousins.
2. Things I've changed:
- Much more thoughtful with regard to sharing workload around the house, especially to give her more free time to herself and w/ the kids.
- Stopped criticizing her A, the OM.
- Much more thoughtful and respectful to her parents.
3. In the beginning, there was a lot of fear and anger (towards her and the OM). The anger has been almost completely eliminated, but the fear has not (entirely). I'm fearful of a future without her by my side. I'm fearful of the effects this will have on my children. I'm fearful about the inevitability of losing my house, and possibly being forced to relocate 2000 miles away from home away from my family, my friends, and the place I called home for 37 years.
Regarding Trust
Wife made it clear to me that she doesn't care that I trust her, nor does she care to trust me.
She said: "I only trust you as the father to my children, and that's all I need from you at this point. I hope you never prove me wrong in that area."
If that is true (and not just her speaking out of anger)...
Then what could I possibly do to rebuild trust, especially hers? How do you get someone to even begin to trust you again, if that person doesn't give a crap about trusting you?
Are you willing to let her do that now?
Yes. I don't think I have anything left to hide at this point, unless I start doing something new to hide behind her back.
Well, that's not entirely true. She doesn't know about DB, or my postings here. I don't know if it's something I should share with her.
Yes you do know. The DB books say NOT to share them. They are for you and would make your 180s or change appear to be "tactics" to get her back, not real changes in you.
"We went to one session of C after the 3rd time she caught me. It was mildly productive. I remember being very defensive, very self-righteous, and not truly making an effort to understand her feelings. (Kind of like now, unfortunately)"
THIRD time she caught you?! You seem to have left out alot in your situation. How can you not see her reasons for not trusting you?
By the time she told you ... ""I only trust you as the father to my children, and that's all I need from you at this point. I hope you never prove me wrong in that area." you were dead to her. She removed all trust she had in you and just cared about your interactions with your children.
If you want to re-establish that trust, one BIG thing you can do is to apologize for your communicating with other women and recognize that it was a violation of her trust and tell her that you would like her to trust you again and that you leave it up to her to do so. And to show your willingness, tell her that you will give her full access to your emails and cell phone. That she can check them at any time and you will respect her decision to do so.
That would be a start.
MrBond - I do see the reasons why she doesn't trust me. I realize that my reaction to her snooping on my phone was, well...reactionary. I didn't see big picture.
Regarding your suggestion in your last paragraph -- I think I will do just that. However, I'm afraid her response will simply be, "I don't care."
I think I need to let it cool down for a couple of weeks before even attempting to bring that up. Establish a couple of weeks of friendliness. Don't start any new crap behind her back that would further erode whatever trust remains. In 5 days, I am going on a 10 day vacation (out of state) with my children, brother and SIL. This was a vacation that my wife booked and she was supposed to come with us. Understandably, now she doesn't feel comfortable going.
This will be good for both of us, I think. Of course, I'm going to fear that they will basically be living with each other during those 10 days, but there's nothing I can do so I have to stop worrying about that. What I also think about is the possibility of her bringing him to our house. However, that is a boundary that has been agreed upon, and I trust that she won't break it.
"However, I'm afraid her response will simply be, "I don't care.""
So what? She hasn't cared in a LONG time because you kept breaking that trust.
The time to tell her what I advised is NOW.
You putting it off is just you acting the same way you had in the past. Sweeping it under the rug because YOU are afraid and not caring about your W's feelings AT ALL.
Look how that turned out for you.
MrBond - Good point. I will tell her when I get home tonight.
There's one other problem though...she may ask for access to my credit card accounts. I purchased my DB coaching sessions through my credit card. She's going to see that and ask. Ugh!
If she asks, just tell her that it is part of your ongoing therapy which was to learn why you did what you did in the M. Be honest.
MrBond - Good point. I will tell her when I get home tonight.
There's one other problem though...she may ask for access to my credit card accounts. I purchased my DB coaching sessions through my credit card. She's going to see that and ask. Ugh!
That's ^^NOT a problem. It's not even in the same GALAXY as the OW behaviors. Not even close. It's much more like the total opposite...
AND IF IF she discovers the DB coaching--
and do NOT mention it to her--
but if she learns that you are paying someone to help you become a better husband to her,
(Not that you are trying to manipulate her get her back or control her, but
how you can be better for/to her...
I'd bet my pinky finger she won't get "mad" at you. Note that she cannot see it as something you're doing to get her back, to control or manipulate her, but b/c you want to know HOW to be a better husband.
There is a huge HUGE difference between "My control lessons" and
"studies on how to be a loving husband", which has to be your focus.
At worst, she'll scoff b/c of her doubts and how long it took or all the times before when you claimed to be working on the m (& she may well believe it's too late) but all things considered, you can handle that.
Mindsin, don't look for reasons to keep doing the same old thing, but somehow hope for a new result.
Remember, ^^that's an example of "true insanity". (=
doing the same behavior repeatedly ----but expecting a different result). FWIW, here's something I saw about men that seemed "instructive" for a lot of people.
Make of it what you will. (I am not sure of the author)
"Here’s to all the REAL MEN out there.
Boys play house, Men build homes.
Boys shack up, Men get married.
Boys make babies, Men raise children.
A boy won’t raise his own children, A man will raise someone else’s.
Boys invent excuses for failure, Men produce strategies for success.
Boys look for somebody to take care of them,
Men look for someone to take care of.
Boys seek popularity, Men demand respect and know how to give it.
Food for thought.
Conversation with wife
So I had a talk with my W last night. She was tired, but was in a good mood. I sat her down and opened up like this (not verbatim):
"I thought a lot about what happened over the weekend and the conversations that took place. I've had a couple of days to really digest and reflect. First and foremost, I want to apologize for divulging intimate family matters with another woman. I also want to apologize for doing so behind your back.
Next, I want to apologize for getting angry at you snooping through my phone. I have no right to demand such privacy after my repeated breaches of trust over the years."
She replied, "Why the change of heart"?
I said, "I came to the realization that I have a lot of work to do in addressing my past betrayals. Until I can address that, I have no business trying to address what's currently going on. I have no business demanding ANYTHING from you at this point."
I continued, "Despite the fact that you may not care, it is important to me to rebuild at least a little bit of trust back from you. I think the first step to doing that is giving you full access to my phone. I have changed the password on it (I told her the password -- something she can easily remember). I am not asking you to check my phone. I am simply providing you transparency and accessibility. You can feel free to ask me anytime, even if you see me on it. Just say 'can I see your phone' and I will hand it over no questions asked. I'd like to start taking baby steps to earn back some of your trust, but I will leave it up to you to do so. Ok?"
She simply nodded and said, "Ok." (with a little grin/smile)
While I was talking to her, I saw her eyes swell up a little, but she did not cry.
We then segwayed into a conversation about our day and about the kids. It was short and friendly. We then said good night and she left to go sleep on the couch.
Another question:
During that week (after she 1st snooped on my phone), she basically dropped clues and hints to see if I'd confess.
She was testing me to see if I changed, and came to the realization that I haven't.
Is there anything I should take away from that? (good, bad, or indifferent)
The thing that I'm still struggling to understand is: Why would she even care if I changed or not? If she simply saw something on my phone and was upset about it, why not just call me out on it right away? Why go through a week of dropping hints and clues?
Any thoughts?
She probably has some insight into your nature but I think the bottom line is this:
She was testing me to see if I changed, and came to the realization that I haven't.
My takeaway would be, "Am I living the life I want to live? If not, either I change or I don't. The choice is mine."
Mind,
I'm proud of you for your courage in speaking with your W about some of your issues. That is an important first step toward re-building trust in the M. Keep going!
^^ agreed! And, while we hold out hope to repair our M, the honest truth is that it may not happen that way. But the silver lining is that, if you do the work on YOU, you have a much better chance of having a successful R in the future-- hopefully with your W, but if not, with someone else.
DB may or may not save your M, but as I was told (and have experienced), it WILL save you.
Keep on this upward path!
" Why would she even care if I changed or not? If she simply saw something on my phone and was upset about it, why not just call me out on it right away? Why go through a week of dropping hints and clues?
Any thoughts?"
It's what we've been telling you all this time. She WANTS honesty from you. She may not want a M with you, but the trust is a big thing. You have to start establishing that first before anything else.
Good job on FINALLY opening up to her.
See what happens when you STOP thinking of yourself and start thinking of her? See what happens when you STOP RUG SWEEPING?
That was probably the most honest she has ever seen you been.
Yup. Thank you MrBond (and 25). I'm finally starting to understand the point you two are trying to get across to me. (Starting to -- I'm still not all the way there yet. It will take time.)
I really hope the "Believe none of what she says and only 50% of what she does" is true, because she's said some really scary and absolute things to me on Saturday. I have to maintain perspective and realize that those things were said in the heat of her recent discovery of my latest breach of trust, and my thick-headed defensive stance that followed the next day.
" Why would she even care if I changed or not? If she simply saw something on my phone and was upset about it, why not just call me out on it right away? Why go through a week of dropping hints and clues?
Any thoughts?"
It's what we've been telling you all this time. She WANTS honesty from you. She may not want a M with you, but the trust is a big thing. You have to start establishing that first before anything else.
Good job on FINALLY opening up to her.
See what happens when you STOP thinking of yourself and start thinking of her? See what happens when you STOP RUG SWEEPING?
That was probably the most honest she has ever seen you been.
THIS^^^^^ MAKES SENSE TO ME....^^^ AND IT's NOT COMPLICATED...so,
Stay the course, Be Honest and
have Zero expectations of her, for now.
A sense of normal
Last night, we were behaving like a happy family. I know deep down that it can be like this ALL THE TIME if I do my part as a good man and a good husband. At the same time, I know that she has many wounds that never healed which she carries with her (and has been carrying with her for years).
What I've also learned over this time is that we are great domestic partners and great parental partners. It's a shame that it has come to this. I can sense the clock ticking. These are the final days of us as a family in this house. Very sad.
I made breakfast for her this morning. She was happy about it. We both wished each other a good day and left.
She's also spent the last two nights at home. I was happy about that, but it could simply be due to circumstances (e.g. if OM is traveling) and I'm not going to ask.
Occasionally, she's asked me, "if [OM] hurts me, what are you going to do?"
I always reply, "I'm gonna kill him (jokingly)". We've exchanged this friendly banter off and on again since BD. I think in some way, she still sees me as someone who will protect his W and family.
My W worries about the OMW trying to destroy her career. I try to validate her feelings, but at the same time, tell her that if she had that intention, she would have done so by now (she is friends with her H's boss -- who doesn't know the situation). She has e-mail records, chat trascripts, and hotel receipts that provide evidence of the A. She's had this evidence since late May. She could easily go to her (H's boss) and spill the beans.
I have bigger fears -- physical threats/violence, extortion, kidnapping, murder. I don't know what OMW (or any of her friends/relatives) are capable of doing. I'm not sure if I should share these fears with my W. She might think I'm crazy myself.
Just my opinion here,
I still care about my W and if her OM ever hurt her I would have a problem with it of course but she isn't asking those type questions of me.
If she did my response, I think, would be something along the lines of "why are you asking is he hurting you now? If you have to ask that question why are you with OM? It is your choice to be with who you want so there are consequences to all choices, I hope all will be fine but I have no control over the choices you have made."
Again with OMW worries, your W made a choice and must now live the consequences of that choice.
I understand having some fears about threats but you have no control unless those threats start to be against YOU. Till then don't say anything to her about these fears.
just my 2 cents
Again with OMW worries, your W made a choice and must now live the consequences of that choice.
Except she blames me for the OMW worries. She has said, "We had her under control until you lit a fire under her".
It makes me wonder, is that the same thing she's doing to me? Keeping me under control? I suppose it only makes natural sense that she doesn't want me interfering in her A.
And this is another example of why one shouldn't try to mind read in situations like this.
"Is she being genuine, or is she trying to manipulate me?"
I could go nuts trying to micro-analyze her every move.
Then don't analyze.
The "we" she is talking about is not you and W, it is her and OM.
She can't control you, You made to choice to expose so now you are living with it(not necessarily in a bad way).
She will blame you for everything so who cares if she is worried about OMW? are you?
Then don't analyze.
The "we" she is talking about is not you and W, it is her and OM.
She can't control you, You made to choice to expose so now you are living with it(not necessarily in a bad way).
She will blame you for everything so who cares if she is worried about OMW? are you?
Yup, her and the OM.
I am
not worried about the OMW, but I have played out various scenarios in my head. My mind tends to go wild like that (with most things, not just this).
I know I do the same things sometimes, not as much anymore but sometimes.
I do my best to let it drop. because it won't turn out like I thought it would anyways.
Hang in there!!
"Except she blames me for the OMW worries. She has said, "We had her under control until you lit a fire under her"."
Well she is correct. You were the catalyst that got the OMW all riled up with your self-righteousness. There are ways of handling things without the slash and burn approach that you did. You "fearing" for her safety because of what the OMW might do is your fault. That's another hurdle you'll have to overcome in order to earn her trust.
Positive steps?
So W and I had another talk last night. She first asked how I was doing. I told her that I'm feeling pretty much the same as I did weeks ago and I'm continually trying to sort things out internally.
She acknowledged and understood and replied, "This is a real emotional toll on me as well." I validated by saying, "I can understand that must be hard on you."
She then opened up a conversation regarding the situation without actually going into the details of it.
She says, "You know me. I'm a planner. But for the first time in my life, I really have no plan for this. I'm surrendering myself to the spontaneity of the situation. Every day is a challenge and my feelings change. I have no idea where my relationship with [OM] will end up. Sometimes I think it's just too much and I feel like giving up."
She continued, "I told [OM] the other day, 'let's just have the four of us (meaning, me + W, OM + OMW) sit down and discuss this like adults so we can all be on the same page. Just lay everything out on the table."
I replied, "You know that can never work."
She says, "Yeah, [OM] said the same thing. He says you will always hate him and she (OMW) will always hate me."
I continued, "I'm scared of what the future will hold. But all I know is that I care for you deeply, and I will give you all the space and time you need for you to go on this journey and find out who you are and what you want out of life. By doing so, it will allow me to sort out the same. Unlike yourself, I am not a planner, I very much embrace the spontaneity of this and I will let it take me wherever fate decides to take it."
She also talked about future family (her side) gatherings and said, "I don't want to end up like [cousin & his ex-wife]. I see no reason why you can't attend at least some of my family's gatherings." Her cousin and ex-wife divorced last year and it was VERY nasty (and still is).
This was a different tune than what she said to me weeks ago about how I will never see her family again and that I won't be invited to any of her family gatherings.
She then segwayed into talking about some relationship advice she heard on a radio talk show. She said, "the key to sustaining love is to set aside your own notions of happiness, and directly ask your partner what makes them happy. Go into specifics, and then take action. Be very prescriptive about exactly what you want your partner to do and be completely open and honest about it."
She continued, "I've been telling you for years what I wanted."
This is true, and I rarely delivered, allowing my ego get in the way. I also realized that most times when I tried telling her what I wanted, she would reject the idea. I didn't go there, and simply listened.
She then went on about a conversation she had with her friend. "[Friend] told me, 'I've known you for a long time, and no offense, but you can be a b!tch sometimes and you're a really hard person to get along with. Don't take this the wrong way, but you're not the right girl for him (me)'. I think we're really incompatible."
I replied, "Think about what you're suggesting. You're the type of person who will disown a friend if they ever wrong you. Yet, you've stayed with me for 19 years. It took you two decades to decide we're not compatible? Besides, compatibility is something you look for when you're dating -- not when you've been with someone for 19 years. It's those very things about you that you see as incompatibilities that I fell in love with. I think everything that happened in our marriage has a solution. It's fixable. The only thing that may not be fixable is the trust that I've broken through my infidelity."
She replied, "I will always hate you for what you did to me, but I will always love you for the person I shared half my life with and for the wonderful father you are to my children."
She continued, "I'm not perfect. I think a lot of my character traits were incompatible with yours, and I may have pushed you into the wrong direction."
Note: This is the FIRST time she's ever even come CLOSE to acknowledging that she had a hand in contributing to the demise of our marriage.
She then left to go spend the night with the OM. About 20 minutes after she left, she sends me a text message "Thanks, my old friend".
Mind,
Are you okay with seeing W going off to OM's??! Seems you are okay with living in an open marriage.
Wonka - I am not OK with it. But I'm not going to push her. I need to let the A take its course.
Mind,
You know you can set a boundary on the no-OM affair. Setting boundaries is for your own protection.
For me, it was not talking about the OW or even acknowledging her at all. Also stated very clearly that she was not permitted to be around or come in the house.
You don't want to become your wife's gay boyfriend.
I know what you mean Wonka. I nearly fell into that trap early on where I felt I was starting to become her "gay boyfriend". She shared with me A LOT about him, his family, and their relationship.
I cut that off shortly after and established the following boundaries.
1. No texting/e-mailing/calling in front of me or the kids.
2. No bringing OM to the house.
3. No discussions about the status of her relationship with the OM (I don't want to hear about it). Of course, if she has been hurt or is in danger (and the OM is involved), let me know.
4. No exposing our children to the OM.
After another DB coaching session (yesterday)
I got my DB coach up to speed on the latest developments. Here are the key takeaways:
1. She thought the apology on Monday night was a fantastic step in the right direction.
2. If she shows positive response to making dinner/breakfast for her, continue. But don't smother her. Keep doing what works. It's OK to let her know that I'm trying to win her back. She would expect nothing less anyways, so don't try to pretend I'm not.
3. Do not mention any concerns about bringing OM to the house while on vacation. Do not ask when I return. Show her trust.
4. No "I miss you" or anything of the sort while on vacation. Focus on how good of a time I'm having and the kids are having.
5. Stop having "deep" conversations with her FIL. Language barrier has led to misunderstandings. Despite what I think he may be telling me, his allegiance will always be with his daughter first.
Need advice on splitting finances
My W has previously suggested that we maintain our joint account for family-related expenses, but also open our own accounts for our personal spending.
I thought a lot about this and want to tell her that she is free to setup her own account. I am not going to. I will continue to deposit 100% of my income into our family account. I will watch my spending accordingly and I'll give her full transparency to all of my credit card accounts.
I consider this another step to earning back trust, but I don't want to appear confrontational either.
Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Optionally, I can agree to the personal checking account, but give her my username/password to offer transparency.
I never did reply to her e-mail regarding the bank accounts, and she didn't bring it up again. She can probably sense that I am uncomfortable taking any forward actions towards separation or D.
This morning, I sat next to her as she was just waking up on the couch and initiated conversation. That probably wasn't a good idea. She looked so beautiful just lying there and I felt I needed to be near her. I know, bad BAD BAD!
We made some friendly small talk (about the upcoming vacation, etc) then our daughter woke up and sat on my lap.
I realize that was a bad move on my part. Detaching is really hard for me, especially with her living in the same house and acting (on most days) like everything is normal.
Well, I'm off to have dinner with the W and kids (on her suggestion), and then I'll be away on vacation for 10 days.
This will be a good chance for me to take some positive steps forward in detachment.
I plan on simply saying goodbye to my W, wish her well, and maybe a kiss on the forehead (I'll play that one by ear).
25, MrBond, if you could scan through my past several posts and offer any additional words, I'd appreciate it.
Otherwise, I'll hopefully post again on the other side of 10 days from now. Hopefully between now and then, there will be no real major developments which would entice me to post here.
Thanks everyone.
Back from the trip
It's been 12 days since my last post. Here is a summary of updates.
1. While I thought for sure that she'd spend as much time as possible with the OM while she's alone, evidence is to the contrary. I'm not sure why. Also, no evidence to suggest the OM was at our house. She did spend quite a bit of time with her parents.
2. We kept in touch daily (often many times a day). It was mostly so she could talk to the kids. I sent her photos regularly and always received positive responses.
3. She got a job offer at another company and she will be leaving her current job shortly.
4. The OM will be leaving out of state (2000 miles away) to start his job in 4 weeks.
5. The OMW contacted her to basically thank her. She believes strongly in fate and her husband's A with my W indirectly led to an early detection of cancer in her father which she is grateful for. This was all that my W told me about their conversation, and I didn't ask any other questions about it.
6. When I returned from the trip, she appeared genuinely happy to see me, although she did not give me a hug or anything like that. She did say good night to me and touched my hand. I know, small body language gesture, but I'll take what I can get.
7. She also said to me that the cruise that we booked for November is still on. Days after BD, she said that the OM will be going on the cruise with her. Weeks after, she said we will be canceling it. Now she's backed all the way to saying that we're still going on it, as originally planned 8 months ago. When I asked why she changed her mind, her response was, "I haven't gone away at all this year (on vacation) and I need a break."
That interaction with the OMW is weird. Sorry. But it is.
It is weird, but based on what little I know about the OMW through our few conversations that we've had, she was questioning whether or not she wanted her H back about 6 weeks ago. I think she may have reached the point where she's finally letting go. Of course, this is just me taking a guess. For all I know, the OMW could have reached out to my W just to get a temperature check on their A, and to get a feel for my W's personality. This is the first time they have ever spoken.
The whole "I'm calling to thank you" bit may have simply been to get my W to put her guard down.
Don't mindread the OMW's motives. No sense in trying to make sense of nonsense.
The change of heart on the cruise really struck me though. If she just needed time off or time away, why not just go away by herself or with the OM? Going on a cruise with me and our two young kids wouldn't exactly be a relaxing time. It certainly wasn't when we went on our last cruise 2 years ago. Every day will be filled with activities + the challenges that come with traveling with young kids. I don't get it.
It's your W's decision to do what she wants to do.
It's not your job to try and "get it".
My W wanted to talk to me last night. She said that she just wanted to check in and see how I was doing emotionally. I told her that my feelings really haven't changed, and that I'm still trying to figure things out in my head. I added that I'm continuing to try to make myself a better person and learn the things I need to do to be a better husband.
She then asked if I'm still talking to the woman I met online. I told her yes (and I am). I said that I am getting good words of wisdom from someone who has gone through this very path before years ago (WAS/OP situation). I told her a little bit about their situation without going into too much detail.
She then told me of the upcoming nights she will be staying over (with the OM). One was last night. She said that she had to be at work very early and it's a much easier commute from where she'll be staying. She showed me her calendar on her mobile to show me the early morning meetings she has lined up. She then said she will be spending the day out of state on Sunday and it will be a late night. Because of that, she will be staying over on Sunday too.
At the same time, she asked me what time we should leave Saturday morning (for our day trip), and we shared ideas about activities we will do that day. We also talked about some of things we'll be doing on Monday.
I found it interesting that:
1. She did not mention the OM at all regarding Sunday but she told me where she will be. I'm assuming she'll be with the OM, but she didn't feel the need to explicitly tell me.
2. She tried to lay out the reasons why she is spending those two nights (have an early meeting, will be back late). She does not need to justify to me why she is doing so. She certainly didn't in the past. I would not have questioned or asked her why she is spending the night. It almost seems as if she is subconsciously seeking my approval, even though she does not need it, and made it clear in the past that she doesn't need my permission (and she's right).
"She then asked if I'm still talking to the woman I met online. I told her yes (and I am)."
And you're not interested in this woman at all? This is what got you into trouble in the first place. I don't see how this is helping you.
MrBond - It's helping me because she is someone I can use for emotional support and advice. My W already read through my text message thread with her. It is clear that there is zero romantic interest from either side.
Speaking of which, since I gave her transparency on my mobile phone, I don't believe she has checked it even once. It seems she just doesn't care anymore, which doesn't bode well for me unfortunately.
So we're going on a day trip tomorrow (me, W, S6, and D3). She asked if I'd take charge of all the day's plans, so I did. That's something she normally would do.
It seems as the days and weeks pass, our day-to-day lives have been slowly reverting back to pre-BD levels. I don't know. Maybe it's because I've been living this "new norm" for 2+ months now. Maybe it's because I've become numb to the thought of my wife being loved by another man, and spending nights with him 2 to 3 times a week. She schedules things around her trysts, as if it's just another normal event on her calendar.
"Oh honey, can you take the kids to the Johnson's BBQ lunch, I'm going to be out with OM".
Yeah, and she still calls me "honey", and I do the same.
This is the new normal, and it doesn't seem to faze me much anymore.
"Oh honey, can you take the kids to the Johnson's BBQ lunch, I'm going to be out with OM".
Are you okay with this type of convo, Mind???!! She's talking to you like you're her best gay boyfriend.
Wonka, I was being a little cheeky with that. The truth of the matter is, she approaches me somewhat cautiously whenever she tells me of her plans to spend time with the OM, and she never actually mentions him.
For example, she recently said "I'll be spending the day in the city and will be staying overnight because it will be very late by the time I come home".
I know it's obvious who she's spending the day with.
"Except she blames me for the OMW worries. She has said, "We had her under control until you lit a fire under her"."
Well she is correct. You were the catalyst that got the OMW all riled up with your self-righteousness. There are ways of handling things without the slash and burn approach that you did. You "fearing" for her safety because of what the OMW might do is your fault. That's another hurdle you'll have to overcome in order to earn her trust.
How is this^^^ Not Obvious? It's basic.
I mean, others may have missed out on the "Scorch and burn" approach you used in your knee jerk anger, but it's the same thing you did when your wife caught you for the 3rd time in an affair.
Remember? You went to MC and she confronted you about your numerous adulterous affairs with paid escorts
YOU were "self righteous" and YOU were "angry" and YOU were "defensive"....it was an amazing piece of hypocrisy that seemed to know no bounds.
Your wife never did that to you when you had multiple partners and affairs with your "escorts"....but it's your first line of reaction, (i.e. attack).
BTW, was the risk of STDs anything you considered? I'd think it must have scared your wife, especially if she were to get pregnant. You DO know that STD's cause miscarriages and birth defects? How would you have felt knowing that your "affairs" hurt or killed your own child? (Can you see what it must do to how a wife feels towards her h?)
Anyhow, if you continue to make progress, that's great. If not then that's that.
But please stop pretending it's ALL the "consequences of HER actions" b/c it AGAIN ignores your behavior, and you have done that for years....to the great detriment of your marriage and your wife's self esteem.
I'm very sorry she's having an affair, let alone with a married man.
But maybe the OM's wife's goal is trying to save her marriage, and NOT to hurt her h.
Besides, getting her h fired doesn't help HER or her children...geez, this is a mess partly b/c you keep hiding from your role & NOT changing yourself.
Please keep the self improvements focus on yourself and not your wife. Build up trust and build from that. When you feel critical of her, get out a mirror and work on yourself...she needs positives from you, which would be a marked change.
Does this make sense to you?
Then why in the heck are you in ANY contact with her? I mean, having an interest in her would be worse, I GUESS but the thing is, you must be testing your wife or trying to annoy her or help your fragile ego.
I don't get why you'd be in touch with ANY woman at this moment in your m!
No excuse for it.
What are you trying to prove? Your neediness? Have you NO friends to talk with? Y
ou know, MALE friends or female relatives?
Geez....this is ANOTHER example of something she'd never be "allowed" to do without you having a tantrum.
But you do it and expect her to have no response OR you want her to be jealous.??..and you seem to be hurt/pouting that she's not jealous. Hey buddy, you wore out the whole "jealousy" thing with your wife years ago. If she were the jealous type & didn't adapt to your reality (e.g., the escorts) - she'd have gone off the deep end long ago.
Sheesh....
Wonka, I was being a little cheeky with that.
That^^ is Not what I'd call it. You were painting her horribly, but that's NOT how she said it at all. Why not say, word for word what she said and not put any spin on it?.
Also, the mind reading and projecting is tiresome for me. I keep having to remind myself about how you assume the worst of her based mostly on your own past behavior, which is SO unfair. You assume she's doing what you did to her, scheduling the trysts and all.
As Dragnet man said, "just the facts please".
The truth of the matter is, she approaches me somewhat cautiously whenever she tells me of her plans to spend time with the OM, and she never actually mentions him.
so the "fact" that she's with OM is actually IN FACT, just your assumption? Oh Good grief...she 'never actually mentions him"....! How can you keep this game of victimhood up so well??
For example, she recently said "I'll be spending the day in the city and will be staying overnight because it will be very late by the time I come home".
I know it's obvious who she's spending the day with.
I don't. Just Stop it. If you cannot see what YOU are doing here, I can. At worst, she's having an A-- but she is NOT throwing it in your face which you have made her out to be doing. I ASSUME you do this to make you look like a victim and her the worst of all cheaters...but I really don't know.
To me, She seems to be TRYING to get along with you.
She's giving you the truth about where she's going - and showing you her calendar to prove it, so you can check it (not that you should) and that is why SHE is being transparent with you!
25 - Please see my newer thread. I'll reply to your last post there. Thanks.
25...just chiming in to say that I'm going to reread my own latest post, with your voice in the back of my head. WW25S (what would 25 say?!)
:-)