Wife dropped the bomb; doing in house separation

I am new to the forum, have read DB.

My basic story:

Married over a decade. My first marriage, my wife's second. She got married straight out of college to a guy who turned out to be mentally ill and emotionally abusive, so she divorced him. I met her a few years after her first divorce.

I had a tough home life growing up, divorced parents, emotionally abusive parents, etc. I ended up as a very guarded person, basically a lone wolf who decided the only way to be safe in the world was to be detached and unemotional. I just stuffed everything, denied my wounds, and focused on achievement.

Not surprisingly this was not good for marriage. W says she probably was attracted to me because of my detachment, after her bad experience from her abusive first husband, but eventually she felt alone and abandoned in our marriage.

We lost our first child soon after his birth due to unforeseen birth defects. Obviously a very tough experience, wife still takes it very hard. But it also started to crack the wall I had built up around my emotions, brought me to God, etc. we started going to grief counseling together, that turned into marriage counseling and individual counseling. For a year or two the focus was on me and getting in touch with my issues. Took a long time, I really wasn't fully aware of all my issues and how much I had walled myself off. I laugh when I remember the counseling hearing my childhood story and asking what emotions I had about it, and me replying "I don't know; I really don't feel anything about it." Which was true. And when he tried to explain intimacy, I was was genuinely confused and knew the term intimacy but really wasn't quite sure what it was! Looking back it is hard to believe how walled off I was.

After a while I finally made some progress and had some breakthroughs, started getting in touch with all the emotions and wounds I had buried, started a real relationship with God, etc. became determined to break out of the "cave" I had walled myself into and to start exploring intimacy with wife, kids (we needed up having twin daughters and a boy). But I did come out of my cave pretty wobbly and needy. I have a very "insecure attachment style" due to my childhood, so my thinking was "Ok, I am going to take this risk and come out of my cave and risk intimacy and connection, even though I know it is risky and I have been hurt in the past by people. So here goes!" My assumption was "I have been the problem in this marriage due to my fear of intimacy. W is very emotionally healthy and loving and had a better childhood so she is ready for this, I just need to reach out to her and everything will be great."

That is not what happened! I started reaching out and being vulnerable and loving and intimate. I know I was pretty needy and smothering and uncertain and insecure in the way I did it. But the response was still pretty startling. W really started withdrawing, closing off. Suddenly she started withdrawing sex, always blaming it on something I had done that day or recently that irritated her. That really set me off, I didn't take it well, it hurt and I complained and was needy.

She then shocked me by saying "I see that you are changing, but I think it might be too late. The first part of our marriage I was so lonely, and eventually a couple years ago I pretty much gave up hope on our relationship being fulfilling. My heart basically died to you and I am not sure it can come back." As you can imagine this was a shock and devastating, it felt like my world was crumbling. Like my greatest fear coming true. I come out of my cave and risk intimacy and this is what I get?! It felt just like my childhood all over again: rejection, abandonment, etc.

A few months into that and W said she had started recovering vague memories of having been sexually abused by a family friend, or coach, or someone (she wasn't sure) in early childhood. She started seeing a female counselor on her own to start understanding and working on recovery for that. Part of me was very caring and compassionate about that, and proud of her for being brave enough to face some very unpleasant issues. But unfortunately part of me just wanted to get her"fixed". Especially when she announced, fairly coldly, that we wouldn't be having sex anymore, at least for a long time. The insecure selfish part of me was devastated, in seemed like she was just slowly pulling away from me and would never come back. So of course I complained and pursued and tried to fix, which only served to push her away more. She pretty much shut down from me emotionally, when we would try to have R conversations she would basically freeze up, couldn't even talk. Which set me off more. I was a mess.

One night a couple years ago I got upset, packed an overnight bag, and stormed out to a hotel. The next day I knew that was a dumb move, but when we met with the MC my W said she wasn't ready for me to come back, and shocked me by suggesting a separation. I felt like my guts were spilling into the floor, I was devastated. I existed but eventually moved out for what ended up being 4 months. It was the worst experience of my life, and probably also one of the best, it made me face some big issues and grow, and grow closer to God. The first month or two I pursued a lot, en finally gave her space and that helped. (I didn't read DB back then but would have benefitted.). Eventually she invited me back home, but it wasn't a very joyous or romantic homecoming, I was still pretty insecure and controlling (although slightly healthier), she was still going thru her recovery and still pretty half-in-half-out in terms of her commitment to our marriage. T least in my opinion.

We would have stretched were we would start up a sex life, then she would stop again. And withdraw emotionally too, and stop going to MC or participating much when she did go. I was slowly working on my issues and getting healthier emotionally, but I was still very emotionally dependent on W, so when she withdrew I would get very sad and moody. This out a lot of pressure and strain on her.

A few months ago she same back from a faith retreat and expressed a new commitment to our marriage, she had realized that she was very afraid of intimacy and had not really been committed to it in our marriage due to her big fears of always being hurt. For a couple weeks I saw good signs of a new commitment, but it tapered off pretty quick. But I thought things err generally getting better.

Then in June she came into MC and dropped the bomb. "I have tried but I am coming to accept that my heart did die for you and it is not coming back. You are a good man and father and you have made amazing changes to yourself, and you deserve to be with someone who loves you the way you deserve to be loved. I would like for you to move out sometime soon and for us to start working thru a divorce." I was stunned and hurt, and didn't have much of a response at the moment so I just said I loved her and didn't want a divorce and we left it at that. On use drive home later that day I stopped and looked at apartments nearby. When I got home I did some of the pleading and pursuing and crying routine. She said well, maybe you can move out and we can just separate for several months to a year and see if that helps. The next few days I did other type of unproductive pursuing, like calling her parents and some folks in our church to try to get them to talk to her. Not real helpful I now realize.

A few days later after a lot of good conversations with my counselor,and good Christian friends, I realized that my moving out into an apartment was a very dumb idea from a lot of perspectives (including legal) so I calmly told her "I love you and I want our marriage to work, so I am not giving up. But I am not going to move out of our house, if she need to leave this marriage then you cam leave." She was pretty stunned and pissed but didn't have much to say. She moved out of the bedroom and went pretty quiet. We had some chats with the counselor about different separation options. W eventually proposed that we continue doing what we had started doing, basically an in-house separation, where we trade weeks in the master bedroom, the other spouse staying in the guest room. It is a pretty weird and tough situation. We spend a lot of time together with our young kids (7,7 and 5) and are pretty cordial together with hem, and we even chat at night about a variety of topics, we just don't have any R conversations.

She says she wants to do this until school starts back up, and then "reappraise" at that point. She is actively planning going back to work, after having been mostly a stay at home mother for 7 years. I know she has looked into rental homes in our neighborhood. I think part of her is preparing for divorce by getting a job lined up so that she can move out and support herself. I have made it pretty clear that I will want 50% physical custody of the kids.

I am hoping that part of her is still wanting to reconcile and keep trying in our marriage.

After that initial week of pursuing, I am pretty committed to doing DB best practices. I haven't pursued at all in several weeks, haven't tried to bring up R conversations, haven't complained at she has stopped coming to Counseling, have been trying to GAL, hang out with the kids on my own or go out with friends, exercise more, dress better, focus on my continuing personal work and emotional health. I think she must be pretty shocked that I am not pursuing, that is very different than in the past.

As far as I know she has never talked to a lawyer, but who knows. Neither I nor our counselor believes she is involved in any type of affair, but who knows.

I imagine that in a few weeks when the kids go back to school we will have some type of conversation where she states what she wants next. Part of me cannot believe she will actually go thru with divorce. But part of me can't imagine her having a turnaround and recommitting to the marriage either.

I have all the typical emotional swings. Some days I feel pretty strong, and am coming to grips with the fact that even tho I do not want divorce for me or my kids, I and God can handle that if it happens, and that there is indeed life after divorce that would still be good. Other days I feel like I will crumble and blow away and life will be ruined.

My personal focus is on regaining my sense of self, and self-validation instead of validation from W. It is becoming very clear how codependent, emotionally fused/enmeshed etc I have become. This is unhealthy and unattractive. It has smothered my wife and driven her away. I like the book Passionate Marriage and what it says about the need for "differentiation." The need to have a strong sense of self before you can have a healthy intimate relationship with someone else.

I also know that she has contributed to our issues, I am not the only one at fault although I do like to put all the blame and shame on myself. I am finally accepting that I cannot fix her and that she will have to work thru that stuff mostly on her own.

My DB strategy right now is detachment, trying to find the healthy balance where I am detached and happy and doing my own thing, but not being too cold in my daily interactions with her. The inhouse separation thing is tricky.

My greatest hope is that our marriage can be saved. Actually strike that, my greatest hope is that I can be a strong, healthy happy person with a strong relationship with God. I also hope that my marriage can be saved.

Thanks in advance for good guidance and support as I work thru this. I have already benefited from reading other peoples stories.

Welcome to the board

Get out and GAL.

DETACH.

Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.

Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.

USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

Got some time away from home on a 4-day business trip which I think is good right now. Enjoying interacting with folks and not obsessing about M all day.

I would live some good advice from anyone familiar with DB'ing during an in-house separation, with three young kids. I think I am doing ok, I try to be happy and upbeat when I am around her and interacting with this kids. I am not pursuing her or initiating any R talks at all, for several weeks now. I also stopped talking to her family or friends about our issues. After the kids go to bed, I pretty much giver her space (like she asked for in our last big convo) by going to my room, going out to meet a friend, etc. I typically let her start conversations, which she does fairly regularly, just on everyday topics like kids, etc. I have urges to pursue, and fears that if I am so detached she will just spin away further - these urges tell me "you need to do things to show her you love her, you have changed!" But I know from this board that those efforts will likely backfire.

Focusing on GAL and finding that challenging. But I know it takes time and patience.

W is taking the three kids on a vacation to Colorado to visit her relatives, without me. Pretty depressing to hear that, but I am dealing with it well and did not protest or react, just said Ok, sounds good.

I have a good Christian counselor, he started as our MC but gradually W stopped going so he is basically my counselor now. He keeps nudging me toward making some type of decision, like he wants me to throw in the towel and announce I am ready for D. Maybe he is just testing my resolve, or preparing me for the worst. I know he wants to make sure I am strong and detached in case W does go forward with D. He also mentions that when a LBH finally demonstrates that he is acting as if the M will end and that he has come to grips with it and knows life will go on, that is sometimes when WAW finally turns back to H.

I get this feeling from counselor, my parents and sister, and certain friends that they all think I am a pushover and have been putting up with too much from W from too long. They all think it is time for me to make a more concrete move, like moving out or even filing for D. Like I am stuck in an endless rut with W and that I need to "take control" and start steering the ship more. My inclination is to just keep DB'ing and being patient, detaching and GAL, improving myself and my happiness, etc. while giving W the time and space to see my changes, miss me, and perhaps have a change of heart. Not sure what it would help for me to "push things" right now in terms of moving out or filing for divorce.

Having the same struggle as others on this board. Trying to detach and doing a pretty good job of it. Just worried that it will drive her away, or make her think I have given up on M just like her so why bother? But I have trust in DB so am going to stick with it.

It think mostly she needs to see and believe that I am not so dependent on her, since that had made her feel so pressured and smothered. If she sees me really living as if I have accepted the M might end and I am prepared to go on and live a good life, that might make it easier for her to file for D. But it is also the only thing I can see as possibly being a 180 that might make her think twice.

At the risk of mind/crystal ball reading, I feel like where we are is that my W is just using the time in in-house separation as a time for her to get her ducks in a row to file for D. Line up a job, look for a house etc. she said "let's do this until the kids go back to school and then reappraise" but i don't think her heart is really open to reappraisal in that short a time frame. I am expecting that at the end of the summer she says she is ready to move forward with D.

On the other hand, I know that the D process can take a long time, especially when she is getting on her feet financially, and I am not Daddy Warbucks. So there is time there for things to change.

I am working on changes. Although most of the time I feel like I am just working on staying alive, I feel like I am walking around with my gut split open and dragging along the floor. I feel wounded and in shock, so it is a real challenge to, at the same time, focus on GAL and making 180s, etc. but oh well no time like the present.

I will keep making changes and getting a life. And will be prepared if in a few weeks she says she is ready to move forward with D. From what I gather, the proper detached response to that will be " I don't want to get divorced, but if you feel that is what you have to do then I guess that is what you need to do." ???

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Interesting night. Got back home after 5 nights away for work. She seemed very cold and distant when I got home, but I stayed calm and happy playing with the kids, and at family dinner. Through the evening she seemed to warm up and pursue a bit, at least conversationally. When she initiated confiscations I would respond and validate.

I also stood up for myself a bit. Her dad's 70th birthday is this weekend so a bunch of her relatives are coming into town and staying at our house. We are trading weeks in the master bedroom and this is my week our of the master,. Typically I take the guest bedroom, so this weekend she wanted me to share it with one of her male cousins, so that she and her aunt could share our master bedroom.

Ali in all I am dreading this weekend, as I know that some if not all of the relatives know about H's stated desire to get a D. It just seems like it will be a very tense and non-fun weekend for me in general.

So I told her I needed to have some privacy during the several nights all her relatives are here, and that I would prefer to stay in the master bedroom. And that she was free to spend the nights in the bed with me if she wanted. Or she could take the sofa bed with her aunt, etc. she did a bit of huffing and puffing, saying I was being unreasonable and selfish, but I just stayed calm and said I needed some privacy during the week and that bunking with her cousin all week didn't really appeal to me. And I finished by saying calmly that if she preferred I'd be fine with getting a room at the nearby hotel so that she and her relatives had more space. She just looked frustrated and the conversation ended.

Of course it is impossible to know what is going on in W's mind. But one possibility is that maybe she hasn't told these relatives, and she was wanting to put on a front that everything is fine, and I am messing that up for her.

After the kids went down I went straight to my bed to read, she came by to tell me something pretty inconsequential, seemed like she was pursuing a bit but who knows.

Sometimes when she reaches out like that I feel hopeful, other times it irritates me because I imagine that she is just friend-zoning me, basically trying to maneuver us into the "we are divorced but really good friends" BS.

As always I worry that I am detaching too much and missing opportunities to connect and pursue, but overall I still believe strongly that calm, kind GAL-ing detachment is what is called for, for a good while longer. Like months probably. She needs me to take the pressure off, to demonstrate over a long period of time that I have come to grips with her D desires, and have decided to be healthy and happy regardless of what she does.

My 180's right now are being more present and fun with the kids, and also of course not pursuing her.

In the GAL category, I am taking opportunities to do short trips away from home that work provides. Trips that are fairly social and fun and keep me around a lot of people I know. I am not a huge fan of work travel but right now I feel these short trips away are really helping me stay sane and work on detachment. Headed out for a two-day trip tomorrow.

Also in GAL, about to pull the trigger on scuba lessons here in town. Really looking forward to it. Doing it for me, but I imagine she will be fairly surprised.

Had a down day yesterday, but really feeling calm and positive today. Still don't want a D, but feeling today very strongly that I can still be happy and a good father even if that happens. Hopefully will feel positive tomorrow too!

Curious if anyone has any thoughts on in-house separations, specifically sleeping arrangements. We have a 3 bedroom house: Master, room for the twin girls, room for the boy. So no real guestroom.

When she first dropped the bomb and asked that I move out to an apartement we both stayed together in master bedroom for two nights. Then when I said I wasn't moving out of the house but that she should if she wanted out, she moved to the sofa for a few nights, then started sleeping with the kids.

(She said a few weeks back that we needed to have a conversation with the kids "Daddy and Mommy are having a hard time loving each other right now, that is why we aren't sleeping in the same bed, etc, etc.". She was pretty adamant about having that conversation with the, but never has. Of course they are young but not that young, am sure they know something is up. So far W just says "we are doing a lot of slumber parties this weekend.")

Then our MC suggested to me that it would be kind if I offered to trade weeks in the master bedroom with W, so I did. When I am out of the master I take over the girls room to myself, because I want privacy and because I don't think adults need to sleep in the same room as kids that much. I just put the girls in with the boy - he has a huge multilevel bunk bed with a trundle that can sleep 4 kids easy. When W is out of master she usually leaves the girls in their room and she goes and sleeps in boy's bunk bed with him.

I get sick of the weeks when I am out of our master, but suppose i can live with it. But does anyone see anything I can do better here? Anyone think it would be better for me to move back full-time into the master and tell W she us free to join me or not?

I wouldn't tell her she's free to join you. That almost sounds like you're inviting her (i.e. Pursuing). Some of the vets could speak better on that than I can, but that's my feel.

I'm doing in-house separation too, and I sleep in the master, and she sleeps in our daughter's room. It was easy because that's been the sleeping arrangement for the most part over the past year or so anyways (and was probably detrimental to our marriage).

I find that the key to living under the same roof is to be mindful of her space. If you share the same master bath, give her the privacy and make sure you leave the room when she's changing/showering. If you're changing/showering, and she comes in, then leave that alone (i.e. don't call her out for invading your privacy). But try to time those when she's not there or during times you know she's elsewhere in the house.

Here are some of the things I'm doing, and it may apply to your situation as well:

Don't follow her around the house. Don't initiate conversations with her unless necessary. Let her say "good night" and "good bye" to you first.

When she's watching TV, don't join her on the couch. Don't ask what she's watching.

When she's spending time with the kids in one part of the house, don't "jump in" to what they're doing. Allow her (or your children) to invite you in.

Thanks mindsin, appreciate your feedback. I think I am doing those things right so far.

I get nervous that I am being too shut off from her, but I guess if I can be detached but still cordial and happy that is what we are shooting for at this point.

Headed home today after another business trip, this one has been 2 nights. Haven't communicated with her at all on this trip. All her relatives are in town for her dad's bday, so that will be an interesting situation to parachute into.

I imagine I need to text her on the drive home, to figure out the sleeping arrangements. Something to the effect of

"Hi hope you are having a good day. Will be home tonite. What did you decide on sleeping arrangements? Let me know if I need to get a hotel room. I don't mind."

I have totally different situation, so no advice...

BUT - I wouldn't go too crazy worrying about detaching too much. My .02 would be detach but be sure that you're being pleasant. Be the kind of man she would want to be with. Look nice, smell nice, be nice, but don't pursue.

Definitely tough when she's pushing for different sleeping arrangements, but I think holding your ground is smart (and shows that you're NOT being a doormat).

Careful with the counselor pushing for divorce...I might even ask the counselor why they keep pushing that agenda. Just a thought.

Hi HT,

First off, your situation is not hopeless. Remember to beleive nothing that you hear from WAW and only half of what you see. That was my mantra for a long time. This can change, and they often do at the drop of a dime, when you least expect it. That's what happened to me.

You remind me of me. I am a codependant with childhood abandonment issues as well. Those issues have created many issues in my relationships.

Have you read Codependant No More by Melanie Beatty? I highly suggest you do.

I would also caution you on the Christian based counseling. I too am a Christian, however the advice I have seen given to copendants from such counselors can border on codependancy itself.

My best advice is to start thinking about the guy you were when you first met WAW. Not the closed off, emotinally absent guy. I'm talking about the fun, adventorous, spontaneous guy. Scuba diving lessons is a great idea.

What attracted your WAW to you in the first place? What is different about you now? Being codependant, you probably lost yourself in this relationship and forgot who you really are.

Recognize the things that DO NOT work: pursuing, crying, begging. Have you noticed that those things have NEVER worked and only made things worse? DO NOT allow yourself to fall back into those behaviours, EVER. DO NOT kiss her ass, you are a man full of confidence and charisma. Fake it if you have to.

Recognize the things that DO work: detachment (she already seems to have responded to this), smiling and happy with the kids, GAL. Keep doing more of these things. The results will not come quickly. Your goal is to slowly allow WAW to feel comfortable with you. The more positive interactions you have with her, without falling into negative behaviours, the more likely she will slowly start to increase interaction with you.

I know how devestated you feel. I remember those feelings very vividly. Your sitch is far from over. But YOU are going to have to put in the work. Dont expect squat from her right now.

Consistency is going to be key here. Anytime you are about to do something you are not sure about, post it here first. Never shoot from the hip, because 99% of the time, you will be doing the wrong thing.

In my sitch, I took the vets advice each and every time. It was BRUTAL for me. My feelings were telling me I was going to lose her everytime I took their advice. My feelings were lying to me.

It's going to hurt like hell, but I can do it, you can.

Quote:

As always I worry that I am detaching too much and missing opportunities to connect and pursue, but overall I still believe strongly that calm, kind GAL-ing detachment is what is called for, for a good while longer. Like months probably.

If you don't mind, could you explain how you see detaching?

In the meantime, let me say this from the viewpoint of a WAW. Do not look for opportunities to pursue her! Pursuing a WAW does harm to the M.....so remember that every time you have the urge.

In reading your thread, it seems you are the one in the MR that needs the emotional connection. It sounds as if you could be co-dependent. I can see why she would feel you were smothering her. You look for reasons to connect and pursue!

You are completely over-thinking the sleeping arrangements. Why are you so hung up over the master bedroom and needing your privacy? And why would leave your own home to get a hotel room? (BTW, I read what you wrote.)

You've talked about your changes. Can you list them? What goals are you working on at this time? What are you doing to GAL?

I think this is simple. You live in the house, and you sleep in your room. She is welcome to sleep wherever she wants.

One of the things that I struggled with is accepting the fact that this is her journey. You need to let her take it, without letting her journey dictate how you lead your life.

Stay in your home and in your bed. Yes, this will create conflict, but don't be naive and think that conflict will not happen. You cannot avoid it.

What Rock says.

Conflict needs to happen.

(Hello, pot? This is kettle...you're black...I've just smacked MYSELF in the head with a big 2x4. Awesome. LOL)

Thanks guys, this is all really good feedback, and I appreciate it greatly.

Thornton, I ordered Codependent No More and will read it, thanks.

I am committed to DB'ing, regardless of how long it takes or the negative signals she sends, or the negative steps she takes, even if her next step is to move forward with filing for D. I am "lucky" in the sense that I have spent almost 2 years pursuing and trying to control, and so I am now very very well educated (finally) that it simply does not work. DB'ing mg not work either, in the sense that it might not save my M. But I know that it is the only strategy that might work, and it will also keep me sane and help me grow into a happier person regardless of what W does.

The silly "weekend sleeping arrangements" issue worked itself out, W ended up texting me that I could have the master while her family is in town. She even slept in the bed with me, but it wasn't much of an event as I went to bed earlier than her and slept in later. Wasn't a big deal in the end, but all in all I feel good about setting a boundary and sticking up for myself a bit. I think it was a small piece of detachment.

Sandi2, I am trying to look at and achieve detachment the way it is described by veteran DB'ers on this board, ie, it is having your own life and emotions but NOT being totally isolated and cold. This is definitely a struggle for me, in the past I have swung from being totally emotionally cut off from W in our early years of M, to then being totally codependent/fused. My sitch is painful, but it am also trying to see it as a great opportunity to finally find the healthy balance, where I am my own person but can also be in a relationship. (I really recommend the book Passionate Marriage, it is great in explaining "differentiation."). It is really interesting for me to watch myself in my interactions with my W. I still feel that urge to pursue and connect, but now I can finally control it. It turns out it is not an irresistible urge I have! I can be my own person, and be strong and happy (most of the time) even when my W is rejecting me and thinking about D. Who knew?!

My changes I am working on are:
Detachment, not pursuing
Positive mindset (reading Happiness Advantage), becoming a more calm and pleasant person instead of a moody/anxious/driven one
More engaged with kids
Dressing better
Continued and improved physical fitness

GAL:
More time with friends
More engaged in work activities and work trips
(This might not seem like a positive change for most H's, but I think it is for me. Over the past couple years I have been so enmeshed in W and e relationship I have somewhat coasted at work. Being a bit more focused on work is helping me detach)
Looking into scuba lessons, dance lessons.

Two questions for the vets:

As for sleeping arrangements, for the past several weeks we have been trading weeks in the master bedroom. Would there be any point in me just saying "I am moving back into the master full time, you are free to sleep where you want?" I would much rather sleep in my own bed full time, obviously. Just not sure is would be a good idea or not.

I am considering stopping going to my counselor, at least for a while. He is a good counselor, I think. He is the MC we have been seeing jointly for about a year, although W gradually tapered off until he has basically become my counselor. I think the reason I want to stop at least for a while is that I just feel like I am in a rut there. I have been in psychotherapy/marriage counseling for several years now, and it has been a great journey, but I think it has also become a bit of a crutch. Like I can't handle life or decisions on my own without a counselor to talk to. I think it has kept me in a mindset where I feel like I am broken and incapable in life and relationships. I think I might needs some time away from therapy to just experience doing life and making decisions on my own for a while. It might also be a little bit of a 180 for my wife to see. With good reason, she has viewed me as a bit addicted to self-help books, fixing the relationship, fixing her, etc. I think it would definitely be a change for me to stop going to counseling, at least for a while. I would def continue my personal journey, reading, posting here, talking with friends, etc., just not with a regular counselor. Thoughts?

"As for sleeping arrangements, for the past several weeks we have been trading weeks in the master bedroom. Would there be any point in me just saying "I am moving back into the master full time, you are free to sleep where you want?" I would much rather sleep in my own bed full time, obviously. Just not sure is would be a good idea or not."
:
Do whatever makes you feel more like a man! Honesy, why are you back on the sleeping arrangements again? I thought you said you laid down a boundary about if. I didn't see it. I saw your W tell you.

Originally Posted By: HopeTex

I am considering stopping going to my counselor, at least for a while.

What does your counselor think you should do?

I like the way you think Sandi. There is some chance my moving back into the master will set the W off and she will threaten moving forward with D, but actually I don't really care if it does.

Nettles, I will ask the counselor his opinion, but in the end the while point is that I need to make the decision for myself, instead of thinking I can't make a decision without a counselors stamp of approval. I actually think the counselor will be supportive of me going my own way for a while.

Feeling pretty crappy tonite. We are hosting my father in laws 70th bday at our house tonite. I had a really good day with the kids, took them to a friends pool party, had a great time. Came back for the big party and did well for a while. Then just felt like an outsider, just didn't have it in me to hang out and laugh and drink with everyone. Said I was tired and said good night and headed to bed. Now just sitting up, listening to everyone having fun and carrying on downstairs. Feeling hopeless, rejected, lonely. Don't feel like I belong here. Wife doesn't want me. Feeling like I want to call it quits and move on to something new that isn't so painful. I felt so good and strong and detached earlier today. Not so much right now. Ouch.

Hey HopeTex, I had a terrible day yesterday. My mind just wouldn't let go of negative thoughts and I was welling up every half hour.

But tomorrow is another day. I expected people to say hang on in there on my thread and they did, and I will, and so can you. I think this stuff is cyclical and you will feel better about it soon enough.

Thanks Old Dog. Feeling better today. Just glad that even though I had some really bad thoughts last nite, I was able to control my behavior. I didn't do anything stupid to ruin the DB progress I have made. I felt the wave of bad feel he and politely and nonchalantly removed myself from the situation.

I think W would prefer that I like hanging out more with her parents and family members. I am struggling with that, they are all nice people but in my humble opinion we spend too much time with them, and for me it just gets very old and repetitive. They are very nice but not particularly interesting, so I get really bored and stir crazy seeng them so much and having the same mundane conversations over and over. I am trying to manage this better. Instead of getting restless and sulky about it, which my wife picks up on, I have just started limiting my time with them a bit, by finding other things to do when I am not in the mood to hang out with them. For example, if I am not up to going over to their house for Sunday dinner (after we have already seen them at kids sports Saturday morning and church Sunday morning and lunch after church...) I will instead take one if our kids on a "daddy date." W doesn't seem to mind this too much. Wish I could magically do a 180 and love spending every spare moment with them, but don't think that is possible. So instead I just set this new boundary and do what makes me happy here.

I think I have a hard time making these type of decisions about what I want and what makes me happy. I always over analyze it and basically do whatever I think I am "supposed" to do, and what will make W happy, even if it ends up making me grumpy and unhappy, which isn't attractive to W in the end.

"What will make W happy"

You are exactly right, you struggle with these decisions because you are obsessed with healing your relationship, and everything else in your life is a lower priority. I have been there, so I completely understand.

Here is the truth - NOTHING you do will make your wife happy. She has to figure out the roots of her unhappiness and fix them herself. Right now, she blames you. If only she were free, she could solve this problem.

The first thing you need to do is give her this freedom.

Personally, I was not able to do this while living in the same house. It was a nightmare I would not wish on anyone. It took physical separation and eventually a divorce for me to be able to do this. Regardless, this is what needs to happen.

For now, I think you should live as if you were divorced and there was no possible future with your wife. Your decisions should be %100 about what moves you forward into a healthy single person the quickest.

Originally Posted By: HopeTex

At the risk of mind/crystal ball reading, I feel like where we are is that my W is just using the time in in-house separation as a time for her to get her ducks in a row to file for D. Line up a job, look for a house etc. she said "let's do this until the kids go back to school and then reappraise" but i don't think her heart is really open to reappraisal in that short a time frame. I am expecting that at the end of the summer she says she is ready to move forward with D.

You may be correct. But then HT, so what?

I mean, none of those^^^ things are "destructive" to the m, per se. And most of it actually would help you, in the event of a divorce. Last but not least, what choice do you have?

You want to act sadder? You want to "stop" her from doing any of this (Which you cannot do effectively anyhow)?

A LOT of this will depend on your attitude about it. And about your future. is it an upbeat future with positive possibilities, or more of the same? YOU Decide.

And btw, I have 2 family members who divorced...and later, remarried their exes. So Yes, it happens.

On the other hand, I know that the D process can take a long time, especially when she is getting on her feet financially, and I am not Daddy Warbucks. So there is time there for things to change.

I am working on changes. Although most of the time I feel like I am just working on staying alive, I feel like I am walking around with my gut split open and dragging along the floor. I feel wounded and in shock, so it is a real challenge to, at the same time, focus on GAL and making 180s, etc. but oh well no time like the present.

Most of us recall this ^^ ordeal rather too vividly. But the question "what healthy choice do I really have?" Helped me stay on track, often.

I will keep making changes and getting a life. And will be prepared if in a few weeks she says she is ready to move forward with D.

If you are prepared in a few weeks, I'd be amazed but impressed. I guess you have had SOME time...but just keep your focus oN YOUR LIFE and your kids. Not on her or HER next move, HER next mood or act or plan, etc.

She is likely confused herself. And even if she weren't. what she feels today may not be what she feels next week or month, ESPECIALLY if she sees that your changes are lasting. And let's face it, if your changes last a few months this time, that will be new data for her to take in, won't it?

Now, back to YOU...

From what I gather, the proper detached response to that will be " I don't want to get divorced, but if you feel that is what you have to do then I guess that is what you need to do." ???

Pretty darn close.

"It's not what I want, but I won't stop you." That also means you don't have to help her either.

Again I say, now, back to YOU....what NEW GAL are you up to these days? I really do harp on GAL a lot. But only for one reason...

it freaking works. And without GAL - I don't know how one can detach. So what are your GAL and some 180s? Can you name 2 of each? 3?

Later I'll post to you something about GAL and detachment.

And As long as you are reading a ton of books anyhow, try "Co-dependent No More" b/c I have heard a lot of folks are helped by that.

Hang in there. IT's not over , and the more she sees you lovingly interacting with your children, the better. It's great for the kids too, plus, No woman is unmoved by that. Frankly it's a turn on. And the kids could use it, right?

Finally, your growth sounds pretty in depth and I think you have one of the highest chances of long term "personal" success around. That means personal success as in YOU will end up a better, happier man down the road. I don't know if that means your m will be saved but it's rare for a man to look within as bravely and honestly as you have

That's a great thing and it will ultimately be a gift to yourself. You'll be loved again and you will love again. And you will laugh and be happy, etc.

Takes time and growth on HER end, and you don't have control over that. So focus on YOU, & creating a more fulfilling life for yourself and your kids.
Let go of the past, and try hard to go "from this day forward" (like the vows say).

((( )))

Originally Posted By: HopeTex

Two questions for the vets:

As for sleeping arrangements, for the past several weeks we have been trading weeks in the master bedroom. Would there be any point in me just saying "I am moving back into the master full time, you are free to sleep where you want?" I would much rather sleep in my own bed full time, obviously. Just not sure is would be a good idea or not.

I am considering stopping going to my counselor, at least for a while. He is a good counselor, I think. He is the MC we have been seeing jointly for about a year, although W gradually tapered off until he has basically become my counselor. I think the reason I want to stop at least for a while is that I just feel like I am in a rut there.

I have been in psychotherapy/marriage counseling for several years now, and it has been a great journey, but I think it has also become a bit of a crutch. Like I can't handle life or decisions on my own without a counselor to talk to. I think it has kept me in a mindset where I feel like I am broken and incapable in life and relationships.

I think I might needs some time away from therapy to just experience doing life and making decisions on my own for a while. It might also be a little bit of a 180 for my wife to see. With good reason, she has viewed me as a bit addicted to self-help books, fixing the relationship, fixing her, etc. I think it would definitely be a change for me to stop going to counseling, at least for a while. I would def continue my personal journey, reading, posting here, talking with friends, etc., just not with a regular counselor. Thoughts?

I so relate to this^^^ about therapy and "addiction to fixin' "...

Evem when it's with a good counselor, (never mind the mediocre ones) therapy can feel a bit self indulgent.

Have you considered a long weekend retreat or a personal growth workshop sometime? Maybe not this month, but soon? Here's why I applaud SOME of them.

Even in useful but weekly therapy, I could make a breakthrough - but then have to leave & go get the kids or go back to work.

So The next week, I'd have to start all over again, so the progress was at best very "fragmented".

But a good intense workshop gave me continuity to see a problem or issue from the past - to now - and on hru to the solution - so that at the end of the weekend, I had an action plan and some decisions had been MADE.
This workshop is called "Essential Experience" (aka "EE") and it's in Philadelphia.

Every few years, I have gone back to do "team" and help other participants, and it's like a free refresher course. (Make sure you research the correct one, b/c there are other things with similar names but very different emphasis).

EE is INTENSE and exhausting and hard, and you know what else is?

Giving birth. I mean, it felt like a 3 day Labor, but afterwards, OMG I was elated.
It was life changing for me and later on, for my h as well. I felt better about myself than ever before. To an extent, that feeling has never left me.

FWIW, I never expected my h to go. But when he picked me up at the airport from doing EE, he told me he saw a change in me right away. He said that it touched him.

A few months later, to my surprise, he went to EE too, and later told me it was the "Best gift anyone had ever given [him]". A few years later we went back together and did "team," and wow that was a truly deep bonding experience.

EE is different from the other workshops b/c It's a lot deeper and it's "Experiential", which means instead of a lecture format, in which someone tells us information and we try to process/digest it, there are exercises designed to help us experience & discover things about ourselves.

That way, people who usually "edit" our answers or rehearse how we sound (which I have done) ARE confronted with truly unexpected insights.

I really discovered some new things about myself that I did not know or admit to, before. That's powerful.

For me it was like 2-3 years of therapy in one LONG hard weekend. My h said the same (and so did the other DBers).

By far, EE is the best, deepest and most profound. It also consists of a community of participants and graduates who stay in touch and are a part of your life if you want. Other DBers have gone, if you want to ask around. Each said they found it life changing.

It was easily the safest and most supportive emotional environment I've ever been in. There is no "guru" there, and although I personally found it very spiritual, there is no religious dogma shoved at anyone.

I think someone with baggage, insights and a brave heart gets the most out of it, and you fit that bill.

You are willing to dig deep, and you know the real journey in life is an inward one.

EE can speed you along your journey so you can get where you want to go, sooner.

Okay now I don't want to sound like I'm pushing you onto something (or selling it!) I just think it gave my life clarity and intention and did that for my h, who is NOT a workshop type of guy.

So just check out the Essential Experience website, and see what you think.

I have no idea where you live or how far it's from Philly, but I have flown in from as far away as Alaska (& Texas) to do "team" - when friends of mine did the workshop. Totally worth it...

Again HT, hang in there. I have a feeling that your life is about to get a whole lot better, right around the corner.

Thank you RockJC. Good thoughts.

You guys are all great and I appreciate your insight and support.

25years:
I am reading Codependent No More. Ouch, see a lot of myself in that. That is why detachment has been so painful for me. It really amazes me as I realize how emotionally fused I am to the W. For the past couple years I really decided I could not possibly be happy if she was not happy with me. At least I have woken up to that fact; now is just the slow steady deatchment from her and rebuilding of my own identity, self-validation, etc.

Also listening to some Mindfulness podcasts, really like the focus on the present moment and finding inner peace.

GALs:
About to pull the trigger on some scuba lessons. Hope to follow that up with a solo trip somewhere to actually dive.
Wife schedule a vacation on her own with the kids to visit relatives in Denver next week. I scheduled a trip for me and the kids to a fun waterpark resort once they get back.
Going out with friends more.
Always wanted to learn to dance (two-step), will get lessons soon.

180's:
It feels like it is taking all of my energy and willpower just to detach. And I am doing pretty well at that.
Also trying to be a positive and upbeat person, especially around W and kids. I have a lifelong endency to get sullen, moody, negative, obsessed, etc.

I am TOTALLY with you on experiential weekends, trainings, etc. I have done Wild at Heart and also a bunch of stuff with a group out of California called Reinvent Ministries. http://reinventministries.org/ It has really changed my life over the past few years. I will look for another one to attend soon.

Random thoughts/Journaling:

I am slowly gaining more peace and detachment. There are still waves of pain and fear and codependency, but they are shorter and less-consuming.

I had a good conversation with my counselor today, and discussed my thoughts about needing a break. He was totally open and supportive of whatever I need to do. It led to a good general conversation about where I am and where I want to go. I think I will stick with this counselor for now, and just take a more active role in guiding my own life and guiding my counseling: not that I won't let the counselor do his job, but I need to decide what I want to improve in myself, not just show up for counseling to wallow in emotion or sit back and let him drive the train.

Not going to bring up a "sleeping arrangements discussion" with the W right now. I think i wanted to do that just as a way to poke at her and get some type of read on the R, her plans, etc. It would be thinly-disguised pursuing. I am fine for now with trading weeks in the master bedroom and will STFU.

I really have no clue where her mind is right now, and altho I don't like it I am much better at accepting that than I used to be.

So for right now I am just trying to be at peace with where the R is, live day-by-day, work on my own personal happiness, etc.

This forum is helping me stay sane, thanks guys.

She shows some positive signs, but nothing huge:
Smiling at me,
initiating non-R conversations about kids, etc
asking how my day was
calling me "babe" once in a while (accidental slip-up? who knows?!)
Not filing for D!

I notice them, but don't obsess on them.

She hasn't shown any particularly negative signs recently, but she is not a very expressive person anyway. I guess the negative signs are just that she is detached and not pursuing me and not wanting to reconcile, but that is very much to be expected right now.

Just booked the vacation for me and the kids at the waterpark resort. Mixed bag. Sad that my wife and I are doing separate vactions with the kids. But the sadness and pain isnt as extreme as it has been in the past. Good bit of peace in there too, and strength knowing that life will go on and I will have a good strong relationship with my kids regardless of what W does with our M.

Quote:

I think i wanted to do that just as a way to poke at her and get some type of read on the R, her plans, etc.

We call it temperature checking (as in checking where she is emotionally in the R at that moment). Not a good thing.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Quote:

I think i wanted to do that just as a way to poke at her and get some type of read on the R, her plans, etc.

We call it temperature checking (as in checking where she is emotionally in the R at that moment). Not a good thing.

SO not a good thing. I read somewhere that "nothing cools the temperature of a M more than constantly taking its' temperature."

Plus, it's another way of showing how UNdetached you are, b/c you did something to get a reaction from her (or to get info).

That's a form of manipulation and attempted control, if you think about it.

I'm not saying I never did it. Half the reason we're here is to help you avoid our mistakes. And I did learn to stop. I hope you will too.

Food for thought.

Just booked my first session with a DB coach. (And booked my scuba lessons; and looked into dance lessons; busy day of GAL!)

I have read some good posts on this forum about this topic, and I will def ask my new DB coach: the balance between healthy detachment and beging cold/isolated. I worry about the W viewing my detachment as me becoming cold/isolated again. Our basic R history is that I was pretty cold/isolated early in our relationship, then started going to therapy and dealing with internal issues and went to the other extreme (needy, pressuring, controlling, pursuing).

I know I need to practice and achieve healthy attachment. I am just worried that W will see it as me just totally cutting off from her again, as me basically giving up on R and emotionally moving on. Like I am only capable of either being smothering or isolated, with no in-between.

I suppose there is no easy answer to this dilemna. I absolutely have to pursue and achieve detachment, that is probably the most important thing for me right now. But I suppose that if I achieve truly healthy detachment, she will also see me connecting to her and validating her if/when she does reach out to me?

News Alert! W just texted me:

"Are you feeling ok? You sounded sick earlier."

That means she has totally changed her mind on D, she wants to reconcile, and I should immediately pursue her romantically, right?!

Just kidding. Gotta find my laughs where I can.

Ha tex. we have the same sense of humor, see my last thread post.

Anyway, yeah, I think detachment makes it EASIER to be a good H. Like when your attached your constantly aware and preoccupied with her REACTION and how it will make YOU feel. When you're detached you can focus on HER.

I'm having little breakthroughs about this. By being ok on my own I'm better able to be civil and treat her with consideration. I feel like we were drowning in the ocean. I can't pull her out if I'm still drowning. All I can do is keep her down. But once I'm out I can compassionately hold out my hand. And if she rejects it I won't feel shunned, just sad for the pain shell feel by staying in a negative state of mind. Of course, even then I'll pray she gets the next boat

Originally Posted By: HopeTex

News Alert! W just texted me:

"Are you feeling ok? You sounded sick earlier."

That means she has totally changed her mind on D, she wants to reconcile, and I should immediately pursue her romantically, right?!

Just kidding. Gotta find my laughs where I can.

And she's ready for LOTS MORE kids!

A sense of humor for this situation is essential. Period.

Good job

Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)

I. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.

When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, �I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.�

It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.

We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).

We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)

PART II Detachment (found around here)

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."

IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -

We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.

A couple thoughts -

I Love the 2-step, it is my favorite dance. Dancing brings Joy and is a great way to take your mind off what is going on in your personal life.

Detachment is extremely hard. The bible talks about the two becoming one. I believe people are wired for personal intimacy. Your entire life is wrapped up in that person. You share children, finances, dreams for the future. There is no light switch that you can hit and become detached. Detachment is a slow and difficult process.

Personally, what helped me the most was getting a formal custody agreement that allowed me to live a single life %50 of the time. During the in-house separation, my wife was living like she was single, and I was living like a single parent. GAL was difficult and I always felt guilty for not spending time with my kids.

If I could have a do-over, I would have formalized a custody arrangement with my W and started building my single life right away. Note, that would not include dating. It would include getting out of the house on my days without kids to do something, anything. The sooner you move forward with this part of your life, the easier it will be to detach.

One other note, nobody around here 2-steps anymore. All the young people Salsa. Salsa is nowhere near as fun as 2-step. But, "when in Rome...."

Thanks for the thoughts RockJC. I guess I am in a slightly different situation. We are still living under the same roof, but she has been the "stay-at-home-home mom" for 7 years and I have been the "working husband." And that situation continues for now.

So I have a good bit of flexibility to do things during the day and after work when I choose. Typically I am planning things to do out of the house one or two evenings each workweek. The other evenings I am home having dinner with wife and the kids, helping put them to bed, etc. After kids go down I might visit briefly with W if she seems to want to chat, but pretty soon if she is not initiating conversation I head to bed. Last night we sat together for about an hour folding laundry and watching TV. Not much conversation.

W will occasionally plan something to do in the evenings like go out with friends, go to bible study, etc. but not as often as I do. I would guess this is just because she is fairly comfortable (and worn out) in her life as mom, maybe it is a good thing that she isn't out trying to desperately GAL, if she was I'm not sure if that would be a good or bad sign in terms of the prospects for our M. Who knows.

She hasn't reacted at all to my scheduling the thee day trip to the resort with the kids (which will occur after she returns from her trip with the kids to Denver). We communicated by text about my trip with the kids, no in-person conversations. I wonder if she feels as sad about our separate vacations as I do....

RockJC Fortunately I live in Texas, so here the Romans 2-step!

I have always enjoyed country music and going to hear good live country music. And it has always been a real point of frustration for me that I never learned to two-step. My wife went to a college in rural Texas so she learned to two-step pretty well. Occasionally after a few drinks I can get out there and fake it and dance with her, but it always feels awkward and embarrassing. The other night I was on a business trip and we needed up at a country bar with a great band and a great crowd of dancers. And t really pi$$ed me off that I don't know how to dance!

A couple years ago I went and took several private lessons, as a surprise for W. I learned a little bit. I then invited he to a lesson with me and she was impressed and pleased with the effort I put into it. But then we just never followed thru with it, never made time to go dancing, etc. and I stopped doing the lessons.

So I plan to pick up the lessons again soon and stick with it. Hopefully if things improve in our M I can dance with W. If things don't work out I still want to be able to dance.

I mentioned to W the other day that I was thinking about scuba lessons. She seemed kind of surprised. "What made you think of that? I thought you said a long time ago that you weren't interested in doing scuba? You know, I am certified and used to do scuba [before we met] right?"

I don't want to mind read, but she seemed surprised about the scuba, and i think she will about the dance lessons too. She probably views me (for good reason) as stuck in my ways and not interested in trying new things, especially things I am not already good at.

So scuba and dancing might double-count as both GAL and 180's.

You live in Texas and don't know how to 2-step? you definitely need to fix that. I am off to Chicago this weekend for the Chicagoland country/swing dance festival. I will get my fill of 2-step.

One of these days I need to head down to Texas.

Ok, we have some movement. Wife just texted me:

"Want to do a check-in conversation either tonight or tomorrow night."

I respnded:

"Sounds good. Either night works for me."

So good chance that tonight we will have our first real R conversation in about a month. Fortunately I have my first call with DB coach Laurie this afternoon, maybe she can help me "prepare."

Would love some thoughts and support from vets today.

I plan to go in with an open mind, with a healthy sense of the detachment I am slowly growing, and with no "agenda" for the conversation.

My goals are to :

Listen intently to what she says.
Validate her in my listening.
Stay calm and detached (in the DB sense of the world).
Do not pursue or temperature check.
Do not push an agenda; rather let her guide the conversation and leave the onus on her to propose a change in the current situation; Keep the mindset that I am a happy person with a life, even in the current M situation; I am not in any desperate need of an immediate change in the R situation to "make me happy".
If she asks whether I am still committed to the M, I will respond simply that I am.
If she asks about positive changes she is seeing in me, I will give a brief answer that I am continuing in the personal development I started a few years back, and my recent focus is on realizing that I am responsible for and capable of my own happiness.
I will not inquire about where she is with R, what she is working on personally, etc.
I will not inquire whether she is "commited to working on the M."

My hope is that she is seeing positive changes and she is feeling less pressure and more space due to my increasing detachment and GAL. My hope is that she will not want to move forward right now with a formal S or divorce, but rather will want to continue with what we are doing for a while longer (in-house separation, giving each other space, etc) or perhaps even begin to reengage in working on the R in some way. (That is a hope, but not an expectation; and I do not need that progress with W and R in order for me to be a happy person.) If she does express an interest in reengagement/reconciliation I will express my interest in that, but I wont rush in and over-pursue.

There is some chance that she will say she is ready to move forward with S, or even D. My plan is to simply listen to what she says and validate her. Stay calm and detached and self-validated. Be curious. In terms of responding to her, I plan to stick with "I am still committed to the M, and to continuing to make positive changes in myself that make me a happier and healthier person."

If she pushes a particular plan and pushes for a response from me (ex: "I want us to go talk to lawyers next week, will you do that?" or "I want us to physically separate for a year, with me getting a job and moving into a rental house nearby, etc.") I think I will just validate her and make sure I understand her proposal, and tell her I will consider it and get back to her after I have had a chance to think about it. That will give me time to think and get feedback from the DB Vets before I say or do something counter-productive.

Would love any feedback.

Wow, that was not very fun at all.

I will try to give a good play by play of the conversation. We sat on the sofa in the living room after the kids went down. W was pleasant all evening, making small talk, etc. so I was feeling pretty positive.

She started by asking how I thought things were going, how I felt about the current arrangement (in-house separation, trading weeks in the master bedroom). I said I was doing pretty well, that it wasn't a dream come true but that I was good with it for now, that I have been making some good progress in personal development and feeling happier. And that I am still committed to the M.

She said "this is not working out for me at all, I am very uncomfortable with the situation, it is not good for me or the kids. When you were out of town last week for several days it felt so much better, getting to sleep in the bed and the kids all getting to sleep in their beds, D7 especially slept so much better. I can't do this anymore. Right now I cannot live under the same roof as you. I will suggest again that you move out and live somewhere nearby, that I stay her in the house, and we do a Real S."

I was obviously disappointed, but I stayed calm. "I am story to hear that. I am still committed to the M and I want it to work. But I have already decided that I am not moving out. If you need to then I will be sorry but I will respect that decision."

W:"But I don't understand why you draw that line in the sand, it seems like you are just being stubborn and trying to prove some point. Like maybe you really want a D but don't want to be the one to file so you are pushing me to the brink where I have to file for D? Don't you understand that your moving out and letting me and the kids stay here is what is best for the kids? Their world revolves around being with me and being in this house. Whatever happens with the M, I will still be the one picking them up from school and spending the afternoon with them, so my having to move out of this house will rock their world more than anything."

Me: "Having their father move out will also rock their world."

W: "oh I know that. Please know that whatever happens I think you are a great father and I value and will def protect you relationship with them, that is so moorland to me. Sorry if it seems like I am not valuing that. But can you please explain why it is in the kids best interest for you to stay here and for me to move out?"

Me: "it is just a decision I have made. I am committed to the M. I have no interest in moving out of my house, where my family lives. If you need to move out you can do that."

W: we are in this together. We are both in this R, and we both made it what it is and got us to this point. So you can't just push everything onto me.

Me: I totally agree, we both contributed to the difficult place this R is in right now. But I am still committed to the M. If you are in a different place and want to make a different decision that is up to you.

W: "But i am telling you that it is my decision that I can't live under the same roof as you right now, and that the only way we can move forward is with a S, and it is in the best interests of the kids for you to move out. Basically you are not willing to discuss a S, so you are just forcing me to have to file for D. Do you want to have some big nasty D fight over the house, that will cost a bunch of money in legal fees?"

R: I have no interest in D. And if you choose to file for D I have no interest in a nasty fight.

W: will you please at least consider again in the next few days whether it would be better for you to move out?

R: I am sure I will consider it some more, but I can assure you that I will not change my mind.

W: but you aren't explaining why.

Me: I am sorry, I don't think I am going to be able to give you an explanation that will satisfy you.

W: do you understand that you are leaving me no choice but to file for D?

R: I am just making my decisions, you have to make yours.

W: Ok then. [She starts playing with her phone; I get up and say "ok" and head up to my room. A few minutes later she texts me that she is heading next door to hang out with her best friend for a while.]

Some general thoughts.

That sucked. But on the other hand I felt pretty calm and detached, whereas a few months ago that conversation would have really wrecked my world. I am sure I will have some waves of despair in the next day or two, but all in all I am proud of my own emotional health and how I handled the conversation. At times I got a little bit tense and defensive/agitated, but all in all stayed calm. Calmer than her.

I didn't expect 80% of the conversation to revolve around the I Am Not Moving Out (IANMO) issue. We really got stuck on that, and I feel like maybe I missed the boat there by allowing us to get into a round and round on that. My palm was just to listen and validate what she had to say, and if she made any proposals for a change in the R then I would just calmly say "Let me think about that and get back to you." But she asked it pretty directly so I just gave her the same answer I gave her two months ago, and off we went. Maybe instead of giving her that response I could have just asked her more questions about her proposal, to learn more about what she was thinking. "So you are proposing I move out. I assume we would have to negotiate a custody arrangement, what are you envisioning there? How would this work financially? Are you going back to work to help pay for these extra expenses? Are you thinking you would go to work full time, or are you planning on staying home a bunch still and having me carry the financial weight? Would we go ahead and separate our finances, as if we were D"? Anyway, the conversation went the way it did and we got stuck on the IANMO issue. She can always reopen the conversation later if she wants.

She seems to really resisting filing for D, even though two months ago she said that was what she wanted. It seems like she doesn't necessarily want D, she wants to live under separate roofs but still have the same life otherwise: same house, living same life with kids, not working full time, but with me out of house.

I am glad I didn't attack her on this, but it is pretty ballsy for her to pull the grenade pin on our M, with all the devastation that will cause for the kids, and then criticize me for not "thinking of the kids best interests" by moving out and letting her stay in the house. Wow. Really wow.

She seems to envision still spending tons of time at home every afternoon with the kids, even if we S or D. I am not sure how she figures she could do that financially, or custody-wise.

And I am not sure how she thinks she could afford to live in this house on her income, especially if she is not going to be working full-time.

Is it too much of a mind read to surmise that she expects that I would supplement her finances and allow her practically full custody so that she can stay in this house, work part-time, spend every afternoon with the kids, etc.? That scenario would also involve me living in a pretty crappy house or apartment, as I am not Daddy Warbucks.

I am not sure she really views the S as a route toward possible reconciliation. She didn't talk about that at all. Like literally nada. She didn't even lay it out as a carrot, like "Come on honey, agree to the S, maybe all we need is some time apart and then I can try to rekindle my love for you." At the extreme risk of mind reading, that does not seem anywhere in her thoughts right now.

Maybe this is the wrong perspective, but I look at her S Proposal as a dead end road that just heads to D. But I also do wonder if I am making a mistake at holding to the IANMO line.

Would love to hear from the Vets on my IANMO stance. I feel like it is an important stance in terms of standing for the M, standing up for myself, and not catering to all of her destructive whims even if I cannot control her. And I feel like my stance allows her to join in and experience more of the consequences of what she is pursuing. Finances, custody, moving out of home. And she actually has to make the decision. Instead of me moving out and making things easier on her, she actually gets to make that decision and move out, file for D, etc.

Hard to say what will happen next. Obviously lots of road ahead. Even if she files for D tomorrow, she doesn't have the $ to move out anytime soon. Unless she moves in with her folks (9 miles away). Should be pretty uncomfortable around the house tomorrow! Probably a good thing that she is taking the kids on a 5-day vacation to visit relatives in Denver starting Friday. They get back Tuesday, and then I take the kids Friday through Sunday to a watermark resort. Then the kids go back to school the Monday after.

I am still reeling a bit, not surprisingly. Although in some ways nothing much has changed. She was WAW before tonight's conversation, and still is in that space. She seemed pretty calm and cold and rational at the beginning, which is the way she typically presents. Obviously there is a lot more chaos going on under the surface, that she isn't showing. At the end of the conversation she did seem pretty flustered, frustrated and stuck.

I have to admit, after a conversation like that part of me has had enough and wants out. I guess that is the constant struggle, and the recurring question. Am I still willing to fight for this M, to put up with all of this when there is no guarantee that the M will survive? I suppose the answer is that you just do what you need to do to be happy, to be as good a husband and father as you can be, and you let the chips fall where they may.

I need to stay calm and continue DB'ing, just as before. Calm, happy, detached, GAL.

Just heard wife come back in from visiting her best friend next door, she went straight to bed.

What a ride.

HopeTex, I'm so sorry, she was just bad, bad, bad.

Your responses seemed calm and non-combative to me, affirming her feelings but firmly setting your boundaries. I doubt I could've been as steadfastly patient as you were.

Of course, you have every right to stay in your own home. She has no right to expect you to leave just because she decided you needed to leave. She was unwilling to work with you; she was threatening you. It seemed like she was projecting her thoughts on to you, especially here:

Quote:

Like maybe you really want a D but don't want to be the one to file so you are pushing me to the brink where I have to file for D?

(I just got the "you pushed me to file" bit, too. Very sucky.)

She certainly seemed to expect that you would roll over and do as she said. Perhaps she hoped for a scene but you didn't give her that satisfaction. Bravo. You handled it like a man: strong and gentle.

Maybe some of the old-timer pros here will weigh in with a different opinion--I am just a newbie at all this-- but I think you handled this awful conversation just fine.

Thanks Nitty.

I am wondering if it might be a good idea to suggest to W that we go see some type of D Counselor. Someone who can help guide us through a basic discussion of what D would look like. So that W would start to see so e realities about custody, finances, etc.. Just a thought.

Originally Posted By: HopeTex

I am wondering if it might be a good idea to suggest to W that we go see some type of D Counselor.

I don't know. She might find some D counselor who encourages her to set herself free no matter what the cost. I mean, I know there are good ones out there, right? But if they are D counselors, then they are geared up for D, right?

Unless you guys are affiliated with a church? One that has a marriage ministry? They might be more oriented to saving the marriage.

I'm looking in the yellow pages right now at counselors focusing on D and all they talk about is "conscious uncoupling." They don't sound like they are willing to try save marriages, just make D less stressful.

I am so sorry you are having to go through this. It must be awful.

Try to keep in good spirits. Regardless of what happens with your marriage, there is light at the end of the tunnel. You will find joy again.

For what it is worth, here are my thoughts -

1) Live your life without thinking about how it makes your wife feel. This should start with sleeping in your own bed and ending this timeshare arrangement.

2) You need to recognize that your marriage is over. Maybe, one day, you will have a new marriage with your wife. Maybe not. But as of now, it is over. You need to talk to a lawyer and start working through some separation issues. This includes both finances and child custody. Right now, your wife is a stay at home mom, fully supported by you financially with %100 custody of the kids. If you were to get divorced, would you want this to change? You should be thinking about how you would manage partial custody of your kids and how finances would work. Your wife may need to start looking for a job. TALK TO A LAWYER!

3) You have the attitude that divorce is not an option. First, you may not have a choice. Second, if your wife is not willing to respect any boundaries you put up, divorce may be your best option. You should start thinking about this.

Again, these are just suggestions. It is your life. Your wife has put you in a tricky situation. It is your life. Don't let anyone make you feel bad for the choices you make. This is tough.

Quote:

She seems to really resisting filing for D, even though two months ago she said that was what she wanted. It seems like she doesn't necessarily want D, she wants to live under separate roofs but still have the same life otherwise: same house, living same life with kids, not working full time, but with me out of house.

Bingo!

Had a really good weekend. Travelled to a conference with a big group I am a member of, a bunch of smart and fun people. Lots of fun activities and parties. W is on her trip with the kids to Denver.

I did a good job of focusing on enjoying the weekend, being present and having fun, and not obsessing on the M.

It was a good GAL experience. Really reminded me that there is a big big world out there, full of fun people and experiences. I still don't want a D, but the trip was a good reminder to me that there is plenty of life out there to be lived even if D happens. I know when I get into depressed mode thinking about D, I think in terms of scarcity and negativity: "If D happens I will always be miserable and alone. D will be proof I am not capable of a good R. No one else will ever want me. I won't be able to handle the pain of D. Etc etc.". Weekends like this remind me that life is abundant, there is a world of life and fun out there you just have to open up to it and know you are worthy and capable of dealing with and thriving in life whatever obstacles get thrown your way.

A couple of very attractive and intelligent women displayed very strong signs of attraction to me. I know those are dangerous temptations and now is not the time for anything like that. But I just took it as a nice reminder that life and love is ahead of me whatever happens in my M.

Heck, yeah, HopeTex.

Came over to say, hello, thanks for posting in my thread and got drawn into your saga.

One thing stands out. Your sig: "You move out, or I will file for D" 8/14/14. Manipulation and divorce attack 101. Go back to DR and look over some of the items on protecting yourself. A common theme around here (that you seem to have heard Loud and Clear) is Don't Leave Your Home. It's there for good reason.

RockJC has taken a hard line and I don't necessarily disagree with him. If you can discuss an uncontested divorce w/ your W it might be best for you AND your children. Lawyers don't deserve any of our money (or as little as possible.) So maybe show cooperation with the mechanics of the D while GAL'g like crazy? That's my current plan, since my W filed on Friday. Then, maybe, if a year down the road she still looks at me with a bit o' love I can try to rekindle.

I'll do a little mind-reading for you. Your W doesn't want to file for any number of reasons, but one thing is certain. If she does, she will be the petitioner, and the kids will know someday. If you leave before she petitions, she can tell the kids anything she wants to about "why" - even if it is 10 years from now.

I AM NOT A LAWYER ALERT. While Texas doesn't really care much about who is in the right, they do get serious about spousal support. So look into it for your sitch. (I have been married over ten years. The amount my spouse is entitled to is more than Child Support for 2 kids. For 5 years. ASTOUNDING! But she doesn't want it, hence, uncontested.)

Thanks Shakspr.I am starting to accept that this will probably go to formal Sep or D first, and that any type of reconciliation is probably way down the road if ever.

I am open to a formal Sep, but not a wihy-washy undefined one like she seems to be hoping for: I move out and find and apt and keep paying for everything and we just see what happens down the road. If she wants a Sep it will have to be a formal one with a written agreement that defines finances and custody. I predict that if I insist on that, she will see that she is not going to get everything she is wanting and will just opt for D instead. We'll see.

Quote:

I am open to a formal Sep, but not a wihy-washy undefined one like she seems to be hoping for

I wish I had pushed for this in the beginning.

The informal S we wrote up and agreed to has allowed some minor financial issues to turn into big, honking arguments because he interprets it to mean he gets to make all final decisions about $.

And our agreement about not spending marital assets on other women turned into him having the option to date. Our agreement that OW would never, ever again set foot on any property with my name on the deed... he broke that one, too.

A formal S, especially with kids, seems like it would be critical in this situation.

Picking up W and kids today from the airport as they return from trip to Denver. Interested to see what W has in store next in terms of conversations about Sep, or D.

Good luck, Hopetex. Decide what a positive interaction will look like, and visualize it. DB Coach Laurie told me a funny thing...a conversation that starts well, even if it gets ugly in the middle, tends to end well. The inverse is also true.

Well, a little drama tonite.

Picked the W and kids up at the airport, they had a good trip to Denver. W was generally pleasant and friendly. We all went to lunch then went home, W and one D7 watched a movie upstairs while I hung out with other D7 and S5 downstairs. Then we cooked and ate dinner, and the kids had their baths. All pretty standard.

Then it was time for bed. As I have mentioned before, my wife and I have been trading weeks in the master bedroom. When my W is out of the master she bunks with my soon in his huge 3-bed bunk set. When I am out of the master I take over the girls room and the girls bunk with their brother. I like to read and watch movies, etc at night so I want a full room to myself. Plus I think the sharing beds and rooms with kids is not real healthy, and that has been an issue in our marriage IMO. Ie, wife always letting kids sleep in our bed with us.

This has been a topic of conversation in my sitch where I have been tired of having to be outside my bedroom, and waffling over whether to put an end to that.

During our last conversation when W asked me again to move out, one reason she cited was that the girls did not like sleeping in their brothers room with him.

This is W's week in the master, now that she is home from Denver. As bedtime approaches, W comes up to me and whispers "You need to talk to them about sleeping arrangements." I said "What do you mean?" She said "If you want to sleep in here you need to tell the girls they are sleeping with in their brother's room."

So I announced "All right girls, I am sleeping in yr room tonight, you will be in with your brother." Instantly the girls start complaining and crying about how they hate sleeping in their etc. they had never had this strong emotional reaction before. I really can't know for sure, but my instant thought was that W had somehow orchestrated or prompted the performance. They are whining and crying and W just walks out of the room, leaving me to deal with it. I tried a couple "all right guys, please stop complaining, this is just the way it is, sorry" but that didn't work.

As it went on, I started feeling a little angry, but I think mostly just plain fed up. With everything. With W. I just didn't care anymore what the W would do. I said in a calm but firm voice "All right guys, change of plans, Daddy is sleeping in his bed, you girls can sleep in your room." Out of the corner of my eye I could see W's reaction, it looked like she was surprised and PO'd. Same look as the two times I told her No, I am Not Moving Out. She kept her distance as we got the kids down. I went directly to the bedroom, she headed downstairs and got on the phone, I would presume to call whatever girlfriend she confides in these days.

I walked downstairs to get some water and she was sitting texting with the same look. I said "Sorry, didn't mean to spring that on you, it just came up. But it is something I have been thinking about for a while, and I am going to sleep In the bedroom from now on. She can sleep where you want."

Her: (Eyeroll) Thanks! (Sarcastically)

Part of me is telling myself What are you doing?! Don't rock the boat and make her mad, you will drive her away, and make her file for D!"

But the other part of me, that is growing stronger every day, is telling myself: Good for you. Sleep where you want to sleep. This is your house. You are a man who works hard and provides for his family. Sleep in the bed for crissakes. You aren't driving her away, she is already away on her own. So what if this helps her decide to move out and file for D? More and more it looks like that is an inevitability. Probably need to detach and get the M farther down the D road if there is going to be any chance of change and progress. Right now we are just stuck high center in a pretty miserable sitch that isn't going anywhere. I need to show her I am ready to get on with life with or without her. And I need to really believe and walk that out too. If a stupid dispute over sleeping arrangements is what it takes then so be it. I am tired of cowering in fear over the thought of D and losing her.

What a tough sitch, HT. It sounds like you called her bluff with the "You move out, or I will file for D". That takes courage. Recognize that.

I don't think it's good to displace the kids anyway during times like these. Divorce is enough of a family adjustment, throwing in that the kids have to sleep in strange places to accommodate their parents and THAT sounds unhealthy to me. Consistency and predictability is so important during this time with the kids.

So I admire your tenacity with sleeping in your own bed. It might have been better if you'd had a convo with W first before announcing that the girls could sleep in their own room but meh, it happened how it happened.

Here are perhaps some other thoughts:

1. Is there an option of getting an air mattress and pulling that out each night maybe in the family room or on the floor of one of the kids rooms?

2. Can you watch TV on a laptop with earphones and sleep in your son's room?

just ideas because if she comes at you super angry then you have things to fall back on to make you seem flexible without being a push over. I don't know. Up to you.

I can tell you're tired of cowering. I don't blame you.

Hang in there, man.

Originally Posted By: HopeTex

Wow, that was not very fun at all.

I will try to give a good play by play of the conversation. We sat on the sofa in the living room after the kids went down. W was pleasant all evening, making small talk, etc. so I was feeling pretty positive.

She started by asking how I thought things were going, how I felt about the current arrangement (in-house separation, trading weeks in the master bedroom). I said I was doing pretty well, that it wasn't a dream come true but that I was good with it for now, that I have been making some good progress in personal development and feeling happier. And that I am still committed to the M.

Much to say in too little time. (More later. But a quick comment here and there, okay? NOT to say this did not sukk, b/c it did. But I cannot talk to HER so, we can only help you.

In THIS^^ scenario try hard to think of a car negotiation or a job interview. LET HER come up with the specifics FIRST, as in HER suggestions or HER thoughts about money. Do NOT put a number or opinion out first, let HER take that risk if she is so sure. IT's a tactic but in THESE types of discussions, (as opposed to honest attempts at restoring a marriage) tactics are useful.

She said "this is not working out for me at all, I am very uncomfortable with the situation, it is not good for me or the kids. When you were out of town last week for several days it felt so much better, getting to sleep in the bed and the kids all getting to sleep in their beds, D7 especially slept so much better. I can't do this anymore. Right now I cannot live under the same roof as you. I will suggest again that you move out and live somewhere nearby, that I stay her in the house, and we do a Real S."

I was obviously disappointed, but I stayed calm. "I am story to hear that. I am still committed to the M and I want it to work. But I have already decided that I am not moving out. If you need to then I will be sorry but I will respect that decision."

Good enough.^^^ Considering, actually darn good of you.

W:"But I don't understand why you draw that line in the sand, it seems like you are just being stubborn and trying to prove some point. Like maybe you really want a D but don't want to be the one to file so you are pushing me to the brink where I have to file for D? Don't you understand that your moving out and letting me and the kids stay here is what is best for the kids? Their world revolves around being with me and being in this house. Whatever happens with the M, I will still be the one picking them up from school and spending the afternoon with them, so my having to move out of this house will rock their world more than anything."

QUESTION, IS ANY OF THIS ^^^ TRUE? If so, don't deny. Concede that and THEN add in your other views...otherwise you will seem more in denial or out of touch or stubborn...

Me: "Having their father move out will also rock their world."

W: "oh I know that. Please know that whatever happens I think you are a great father and I value and will def protect you relationship with them, that is so moorland to me. Sorry if it seems like I am not valuing that. But can you please explain why it is in the kids best interest for you to stay here and for me to move out?"

Me: "it is just a decision I have made. I am committed to the M. I have no interest in moving out of my house, where my family lives. If you need to move out you can do that."

Saying "it's just a decision" is like saying "just because"....fwiw

The part about not wanting a divorce AND not wanting to leave the family home makes sense. ITs your family.

W: we are in this together. We are both in this R, and we both made it what it is and got us to this point. So you can't just push everything onto me.

^^^^"THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I CANNOT MOVE OUT"...(unless she wants to alternate, b/c otherwise only YOU are paying the price for what you BOTH created...)

Me: I totally agree, we both contributed to the difficult place this R is in right now. But I am still committed to the M. If you are in a different place and want to make a different decision that is up to you.

W: "But i am telling you that it is my decision that I can't live under the same roof as you right now, and that the only way we can move forward is with a S, and it is in the best interests of the kids for you to move out. Basically you are not willing to discuss a S, so you are just forcing me to have to file for D. Do you want to have some big nasty D fight over the house, that will cost a bunch of money in legal fees?"

R: I have no interest in D. And if you choose to file for D I have no interest in a nasty fight.

Did you say you are in Texas so there's no point in a legal sep? What about an informal sep? Sorry if I forgot why you can't, but to me it's LESS than a divorce and clearly lving under the same roof is hard for HER so....what is the immediate goal here? ( know the ultimate goal is restoring the m, but for now, what is the immediate solution to all the tension? Why can't you two alternate in and out of the house and let the kids remain?

Just an idea. Shows some flexibility AND commitment to the M.

W: will you please at least consider again in the next few days whether it would be better for you to move out?

R: I am sure I will consider it some more, but I can assure you that I will not change my mind.

NO need to project zero movement. Express your willingness TO CONSIDER her request and then do so. Don't predict you will never change your mind b/c that sounds a LOT like you "will never change", period....

I think this is important.

W: but you aren't explaining why.

Me: I am sorry, I don't think I am going to be able to give you an explanation that will satisfy you.

W: do you understand that you are leaving me no choice but to file for D?

R: I am just making my decisions, you have to make yours.

W: Ok then. [She starts playing with her phone; I get up and say "ok" and head up to my room. A few minutes later she texts me that she is heading next door to hang out with her best friend for a while.]

She sounds resolute and even more convinced you are just being stubborn. You did not do a lot to counter that although thank God you remained calm. But Any time you can undermine that stubborn (to HER it will =controlling) attribute, you ought to try,

not to be a doormat but to look as if you really are CONSIDERING her requests. Remember your earliest posts in which you conceded a lot of these problems are not 50/50 but more like 95/5 with you having the bulk of the work to do.
Today, I'm sure you see it more realistically but it still remains that you DO have some issues she will have to see in a new way

that means you changing and somehow revealing the changes MORE. I don't think scuba and stubborn will be a good enough mix. Scuba and "new behaviors" will...

make sense?

Thanks for the feedback and ideas Sso6, appreciate it.

She came into the master bedroom and got her pillows. Said "Good night" and headed to S's room.

Thanks 25' you have given me a lot to think about.

Originally Posted By: HopeTex

Thanks 25' you have given me a lot to think about.

She always does.

Quote:

Part of me is telling myself What are you doing?! Don't rock the boat and make her mad, you will drive her away, and make her file for D!"

But the other part of me, that is growing stronger every day, is telling myself: Good for you. Sleep where you want to sleep. This is your house. You are a man who works hard and provides for his family. Sleep in the bed for crissakes.

HopeTex, I don't know what the vets will say on this one because I'm getting more confused about the subtleties of DBing without turning into a doormat (thanks to 25 for those clarifications) but your declarations of independence made me cheer.

You have every right to sleep in your bed. She is the one who has broken her vows. You were faithful, she was not. She has no right to push you out. I'm so glad you stayed.

You were not punishing her, she was welcome to sleep in the bed, too, but she chose not to. I don't know why I feel so glad for this little victory, but I do, probably because I wish I had some little victories in my life right now, too.

Good for you. Like I said earlier, there is no way to avoid conflict.

I think this thought "Don't rock the boat and make her mad, you will drive her away, and make her file for D!" is very natural. But, it is not accurate. It is important to set legitimate boundaries. The truth is that these boundaries reduce conflict and if consistent will improve the relationship.

The biggest issue I see is that this was an emotional response to the conflict with your children, rather than a deliberate boundary that you rationally set. It also blindsided your wife.

It would have been better if you could have sat down with her calmly before she went to Denver and explained that it is unreasonable to ask you to sleep in a different room. That when she returns, you are going to start sleeping in the master bedroom. That, she needs to decide what her sleeping arrangements are going to be when she gets home.

The key to setting boundaries is making sure that they are reasonable, that you are consistent, and that they are done solely to support your personal needs.

There is a tendency to use conflict like this to control and manipulate your spouse. That will just create more conflict and drive her away.

Oh, and don't fall for the "I am taking the high road, and am the victim" act that your wife portrayed by calmly getting the pillow.

The choice to end the relationship and move out of the family bed was hers. She could have made different choices, but this is the one she made. You should not feel any guilt for allowing her to make this choice.

She doesn't have the right to tell you were you have to sleep. You get to decide where you sleep, she gets to decide where she sleeps. It is that simple.

Just had a very interesting conversation with the W. �It followed a pretty tough nite, for me, tossing and turning and questioning. �

She came into the master to get ready for the day and I asked if she had some time to chat. �I told her that I was sorry that she was hurting, and that I didn't want a D but it was pretty clear that she did. �I said that I did not want her unhappy and so if she really wanted a D I was willing to discuss that with her and to help her move toward that. �I said I might not agree to everything she wants, but that does not mean that I will be stubborn and try to stop the D. �For example, I am not going to just move out of the house right now without some type of agreement in place, but that does not mean that I am not willing to discuss a million other things on the table.

She focused on the moving out issue, and insisted that I was not being honest with why I had that position, she said I must have gotten that from some conversation with somebody since I changed my mind so abruptly a couple months ago. �I repeated that one reason is that I am committed to the M so I am not going to leave, but then I did also explain to her that many people did talk to me about the legal downfalls of a H moving out, and that is also part of my rationale. �I said I wasn't going to move out without some type of legal agreement in place related to financials, custody, etc. �

I suggested that the next logical step was for her to find a D counselor, D mediator, or D lawyer to help her gather all the needed financial info and begin to put together a proposal. �I mentioned I had a Divorce for Dummies book with lots of good guides and forms for thinking all of that through. �I said that if she did all of that work on the front end and we could come up with a basic agreement, we could save $ on lawyers. �

At the risk of mind reading, as we talked she seemed to soften and get a little sad.

I told her that I wasn't going to stage a big fight for me to stay in the house, I explained that I just didn't know all of our finances well enough to know what was going to be possible, and I wasn't sure whether either of ous could afford to keep the house. �She said she thought that she could afford to stay in the house, she vaguely mentioned that she thought that if she got a job she could afford the house, and also mentioned something about letting me have our savings in exchange for her keeping he the house. �As I have mentioned before, I am skeptical that she can afford to stay in the house without a huge ongoing subsidy from me. �But I didn't question her about the details of what she is envisioning financially in a D settlement, I figure those type of details and assumptions will be tested as we move forward in looking at the numbers and discussing proposals.

When I mentioned that I was still committed to the M, she somewhat criticized that as just a story I was telling myself and others, that I wasn't facing up to reality, that I was miserable too and that I want out too. It was clear she doesn't like being seen as the one ending the M. �She said "You are miserable too." �I calmly said that yes, I have been unhappy, but that I still think there is a chance to work things out, but that I can understand if she doesn't think so. �I told her that I had done a lot of soul-searching in the past several weeks, and that I can see even more clearly how I have contributed to some of the problems. �She seemed somewhat interested in that but did not inquire.

She said she had heard from our mutual family and friends that I was telling people that I was committed to M and that she was the one who wanted out. �She expressed that that was somehow a fantasy story, and that her real fear was that I would tell our kids that. �I told her that it was not a story, it was very true that I did not want out of the M even if I have indeed been unhappy too. �But I assured her that I know full well that that is not what you tell young kids, that you tell kids that it is a mutual decision. �She seemed relieved.

I validated her by telling her how even though I personally don't think D is the right answer, I have done a lot of thinking recently and can understand how she has come to that conclusion after so much time in pain. �I told her that I knew that she was doing what she thought was best, even if I didn't agree with her conclusions. �I told her I wanted her to be happy and that I knew she was doing what she thought was needed to achieve that. �At that point she got very sad and said "I want you to be happy too. �I just want everyone to be happy."

Then the kids woke up so the conversation ended there.

So how we left I suppose it is that I will get her the Divorce for Dummies Book and she will start compiling the financial info. �I think she will probably work on that for a while and have discussions with me before consulting with a L. �I am going to be cooperative but also will let her do the work.

This is very fresh so I am not entirely sure if I am doing the right thing here. �But it does feel right. �It feels good to have things out on the table, to not be totally in the dark worrying about what she is going to do next legally. �And it did seem to open her up and get her talking and sharing. �I think she feels more seen and accepted. �And now she can start delving into the financial realities of D, which might give her pause. �

I am not real optimistic that she will change her mind prior to D, but I think that me being detached, cooperative, validating and "acting as if" probably provides the best chance, and it will also increase the chances for a decent working relationship post-D.�

I am feeling pretty good right now, although I imagine a wave of sadness and/or fear about moving forward to this next phase will hit me sometime soon.

Had a good chat with my DB coach Laurie just now. She was supportive of me dropping the rope, and the way I did it.

Laurie liked the empathy I showed in validating W, Laurie thinks this serves to release pressure and allow W to relax and open up to me, instead of feeling that I am always angry and judgmental about what she is doing. Laurie suggested I should look for signs of this, and also look for ways to validate W again. Not for me to initiate R conversations where I validate what she is doing in our R, but just me looking for ways to validate/affirm W if I see her doing some good with kids, for example. When W sees me validate her on something "small" like that, it gives her a clue that I am no longer spending all my time and energy being hurt and angry at her. I can accept and care about W even if I disagree with what she is doing to our M. It shows that I have moved to a new, detached, GAL phase. I may still strongly disagree with her current desire to end M, but I have evolved into acceptance and detachment. Shows that I can still care for H even when she is making decisions that hurt me. Laurie says that his type of mindset is Healing, Hope-Giving and Attractive to a W. Much more so than when I just am Angry and Judgmental.

Laurie says that this is NOT giving up on the M. It is just Trying in a New Way, for a new season and phase of our R. Hopefully now that I have dropped the rope:

I will feel better and stronger
I will be more attuned to W
I will no longer be so much of an anger target for W
I will be more attractive to W.

Even if she decides in the end to D, she will be divorcing a person she is more attracted to and feels much better about.

Laurie says to keep an eye on how fast W moves forward with her D work. It could be that now I have dropped the rope, it removes the battle W was fighting with me. Now that I have given a green light, W has to face and ponder the reality of actually going thru with it. Just a new world for her to grapple with. Her actual behavior will tell much more truth than any words she has said.

Laurie suggests that I give W the D workbook but then let W do the work, I just sit back and provide input if W requests. My most realistic optimistic goal is for W to dawdle and delay and have second thoughts, so my strategy is to do everything to make that possible. In other words, I will not nag her about Where are We on this D Stuff? But if she initiates D conversations then I need to participate and be cooperative.

Gotta run and GAL! Movie premiere with friends!

Love you guys.

Very profound stuff, HT!

Laurie is my coach too and I love her to pieces.

I guess I don't fully understand what "dropping the rope" actually means. I thought it meant that you were in favor of a D at that point, that you were no longer "pulling for reconciliation". Is that wrong?

Thanks for sharing your coaching notes; I just copied them for my own reference.

I am spending so much money on legal/financial fees right now, I'm wondering if adding coaching fees will matter. I'm lost at sea right now, wishing I did have a coach.

I'm also wondering how it will affect H to see Divorce Busting coaching on my list of expenses now that we are in D proceedings. I wonder if him seeing those expenses would appear that I am pursuing.

HopeTex, your sitch and mine have a lot of parallels. Here's a little hope for you - my wife rushed to file, etc., quickly. Once I began "Acting as if" the divorce was a decision she had made and I had to cope with as an adult, things HAVE softened. If we ever reconcile this marriage, it is probably 50/50 before/after the actual divorce. Once I realized that, GAL'g, etc., have become much easier. I did, like you, refuse to help her with paperwork or filing, or any of that crap. She can dismantle the marriage. I won't be a part of that.

When she softens, enjoy those moments. Create an environment that her memory can't deny as "good." Don't fear the inevitable pulling away and negative backlash. Those are signs that the good times WERE REAL! My wife has said that part of the reason she is doing this is because I have been miserable, too. Negative emotional cycling, little sex life, and no passion, no love. She's right about those things and I can validate. However, it isn't hard for me to say I have done a lot of reflection and soul-searching, and when she is willing, I can tell her all about how I see those things now.

She is responsible for herself, and controls the divorce process. But this is all she controls.

I refuse to give up until/unless she remarries or 3 years pass. (I graduated West Point. I can take the pain, By God!)

I won't tell anyone about this until absolutely necessary (thus making it easier for her to change her mind.)

I remain committed to becoming a better man and a better father. Therefore, as day follows night, I will become a better husband.

Hang in there!

[quote=HopeTex]Had a good chat with my DB coach Laurie just now. She was supportive of me dropping the rope, and the way I did it.

Laurie liked the empathy I showed in validating W, Laurie thinks this serves to release pressure and allow W to relax and open up to me, instead of feeling that I am always angry and judgmental about what she is doing.

As always, ^^^ great advice.

Laurie suggested I should look for signs of this, and also look for ways to validate W again. Not for me to initiate R conversations

I want to emphasize this^^^ b/c the first thing I thought when I read your post was "WHY?? WHY THE R TALK??" and I really hope you'll stand by that...

Good work

-

25: I think the conversation I initiated was a bit of a backslide for me. According to DB rules I probably shouldn't have initiated it. That being said, I think I did minimal damage, by at least not actively pursuing in a "please don't leave" sense. But I do now need to hold strictly to NOT initiating R conversations.

Rock JC: totally agree that I picked the wrong way and timing to make the sleeping arrangements decision.

Ss06: you might be right, I might be misusing the "drop the rope" term, night not apply to what I did. Maybe vets can chime in on what they refer to when they use that term.

Shakspr, I like your perspective on things and yes we seem to be in similar sitches.

Got back tody from my little two night vacation with the kids at the watermark resort. We had a really good time, I am exhausted but proud of being able to handle three little ones all on my own.

Have had some really difficult nights though, tossing and turning and dreading. Afraid of what might be coming. Fear that there is no hope for our M. Fear that I cannot handle things, can't handle the pain of D, can't handle the loneliness, can't handle the kids when I have them on my own, just can't handle. Really negative thinking straight from the Enemy. My God it is terrible when I go through nights like that. Today it broke a bit and I am back on more level ground.

This afternoon and evening I have been engaging the W in conversation about our kids: who their new teachers will be, what their individual challenges are, how our one daughter's gluten situation is going, etc. One, I am trying to be more engaged as a father in general. Two, I really need to be more engaged if we end up D and I want to be able to handle joint custody. Three, it seems like a good safe topic for W and I to discuss, and it is a 180 for her to see in me.

Just wanted to check with the vets and see if initiating this type of conversation was ok, or if it hurts somehow.

I'm not a vet, at all, but as a WIFE, I think it's imperative that you know details of your kids lives. It matters. Their teachers, any projects they are working on, friends on the playground, bullies, how their reading is going, play math games with them (marshmallows and raisins work great here!), take them to the pediatrician for their well-visits, be the "park dad"... this is incredibly sexy and, even better, your kids will see that all that matters to you and not just mom!

Keep that up. Only good can come out of it.

Welcome back everyone! Nothing too new here. New challenge is that suddenly things are a bit shaky at work with some changes that have me concerned that I might have to find a new job. As if I didn't have enough to stress about right now! It has given W and I something to chat about though, she is being very kind and supportive.

Just checking in, HT. I know that work problems/uncertainty hit a man right in the gut. Use this time to get ahead of the problem. Update your resume now, get your things in order, and start looking before your company has to lay you off. Thank God you are in Texas - at least there are jobs here.

Even if things work out, you'll be in a better mental state while you wait.

Thanks S. It is actually a missed blessing, giving me something else to worry about besides the M.

Pls pray for me tonite. W texted me earlier that she wants to "revisit our last conversation" where I refused to move out and we discussed her talking to a lawyer. Will be interesting to see what she has to say. I am going to stay firm on not moving out, but otherwise try to be opeminded and validating. And will try to let her lead the conversation.

Prayers transmitted. God hears us. He has lifted me up throughout the day today, and has put people in my life who respect me and are doing whatever they can to help. I am so thankful that none of the inner circle have made suggestions like I have heard on other threads. Someone telling me to get out there and date would receive a knuckle sandwich. Strangely, my struggles - and my response to them at work - have been a blessing to others, inspiring them to work on their own marriages. Several have commented that my attitude is unbelievable, considering the facts. My truth: God + DB'g = Hope

Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.
�Joshua 1:9

Thanks S.

Well. She filed.

We sat down at the kitchen table and she gave me the paperwork. I didn't really have much to say. Stayed calm. Was in a little bit of shock but overall I am surprised at how calm I felt. Think it is somewhat of a relief in a way. We didn't talk much, I just told her I would find a lawyer. She talked a while about wanting it to be as cordial as possible. I agreed.

She still wants me to move out and claims her lawyer said they could somehow boot me legally. Not so sure about that.

Now I need to find a good lawyer and pronto. Working on that now.

I'm sorry, HT. What a tough thing to face tonight. (((hugs)))

I do find it comical that as soon as she finished the sentence about being cordial she informed you that her attorney is planning to "boot" you legally. How very cordial.

Stay the path. We're here.

I am so sorry, HopeTex!

I know that must've been awful.

Things look dark now, but have faith.

Found a good lawyer, we had a short chat and will meet next Tuesday. He said to stay put in the house for now, he says that at some point they could get a judge to order me out of the house, but that would only be in conjunction with a broader temporary order on how to handle custody, finance etc. between now and the final decree. As I have read before husbands need to stay in the house until that temp order is negotiated and ordered. If you move out before, you are showing the judge you don't care about the house and don't care about the kids, the judge sees it as a type of abandonment. The judge says "What is the current situation? H is out of the house and W is taking care of the kids? Ok, well if that is what is working now we will leave things that way in the temp decree. ". The big problem is that if the final divorce details are decided by the judge, the judge might say "What is the current situation?" Etc etc. this is a big reason why husbands should not move out until there is some type of order making them,and also setting out other details.

Really looking forward to the meeting with L, I am hoping it I'll answer a lot of questions that keep me up at night. Even if the answers aren't great. Like: what % custody is realistic for me to get in Texas?

Will write more later....

Press for expanded visitation 60/40. I will get 1/3/5 extended weekends with my kids - picking them up Thursday at 6 and taking them to school the following Monday. Get a strict geographic restriction and stay close! If she still sees you as a good dad, this should be doable. Or maybe she wants u to be the custodial parent?

She def wants to be primary parent. She is a very good mom, and that is her main priority. But I will push for 60/40 (me with 40). And I will stay close and push for geo restriction.

I think she sees me as a good dad. If she objects it will prob be based on "Our kids are too young, it is too unstable for them to have to move between houses so much." Personally I believe the inconvenience is outweighed by the benefits of having the dad be more involved in parenting the kids. Not sure how that debate usually plays out in Texas.

I could be wrong but I predict that she won't be able to afford to stay in the house like she wants. If she wants to stay in the house she needs to refinance in her own name and get me off the mortgage. Not sure how she can do that with no real income history for the past 7 years. But we'll see. If she can work that out that is great, would be nice for her and kids to be able to stay in house. I just don't plan to make that happen financially on my back, with her staying in the house while I can only afford an efficiency apartment.

Anyone have any experience with that situation? When is the D process does that issue come up?

Hopetex. I truly hope you have a good lawyer. I AM NOT A LAWYER, but here is what I have learned. In Texas, if you have been married 10 years or more, she is entitled to spousal support for up to 5 years. I don't claim to know the formula, but if she hasn't worked, she can get up to 20% of your gross. Plus 25% of your net for the kids (2+ children) until 18 or HS graduation. THIS IS WORST CASE, so don't freak out yet. Community property, (house, cars, debts, 401K), is divided, so you may be able to deduct the equity in the home if you leave her the home. It ain't good to be a man except the fact that the courts here DO believe in fatherly involvement in the children's lives. So you can't be cut off there, and if she tries, she will be on the wrong side of the law.

Bottom line, mediate or do a no fault divorce, uncontested, if that is an option. Lawyers get less, and there is more opportunity for reasonableness.

Told the W this morning that I had found a lawyer and would be meeting with him Tuesday. That started a long conversation about what we envisioned the D looking like. It was very calm and cordial. We discussed how we want to be good cordial cooperative co-parents. Started talking thru finances in a general sense. She thinks she can afford the house and is willing to buy me out by giving me retirement accounts, etc, and knows she needs to refinance, maybe with her dad's help.

I spent yesterday evening hanging out with a buddy at the apartment complex in the neighborhood, he is divorced with three young kids. Nice place, three bedroom three bath, it gave me a picture of what life would look like, not my fantasy but still a good life.

So today I told her I would probably plan on living there if we did get divorced and she was able to buy me out if the house and get me off the mortgage.

We talked a bit about custody schedules, she is proposing something like 70/30, I said I would talk to my lawyer but that I planned on more 50/50. She didn't get angry, just grimaced and said she thought that would be too disruptive for the kids. I left it at that.

I feel very lost right now as to whether what I am doing is good DBing or not. She is very determined right now about moving forward with the D. I am trying to be detached and non-argumentative. I am letting her do all the work on the D, but also cooperating when she asks me for financial info, etc. and I know I have to go meet with a lawyer and get a gameplay ready to protect myself and my relationship with the kids. But I feel like maybe I am giving up and being too cooperative by telling her about my plan to move into the apartment if we D and she buys me out of the house. Am I making things too easy for her, or is this good because it is no trying to fight her on the idea of D?

It feels right now like she is a freight train barreling toward D and there is no stopping it. Over the last day or so I have been in a mindset of "Oh well. I guess the D is inevitable so it is time to get ready to negotiate the details and plan on where I am am going to move, and do it all in a kind, loving and respectful way that protects my working relationship with the W for the benefit of the kids going forward." But am I missing some other DB perspective I need to be holding to?

I feel lost vets, please advise as to how I should handle this new phase!

To put it another way, I feel like what I am doing is good in terms of structuring a healthy relationship with a soon-to-be ex wife. I am just not sure if I should be doing something to different if I want to ALSO improve my chances of her changing her mind and wanting to be my W, either before or after a D.

I have to admit, my mindset the last few days has been that this is over and there is no hope left, ever. It is still painful inside, but outwardly I am just calmly discussing things with her like who gets the couch, or the entertainment center. I am not even sure I am DB'ing right now. I am just accepting the D and negotiating out the details with her and finding an apartment, etc.

Granted, we may have some conflict when it comes to deciding some financial issues and the custody, but ibasically right now we are cooperating like a healthy divorced couple. And that feels good, but it also feels terrible.

Quote:

If you move out before, you are showing the judge you don't care about the house and don't care about the kids, the judge sees it as a type of abandonment. The judge says "What is the current situation? H is out of the house and W is taking care of the kids? Ok, well if that is what is working now we will leave things that way in the temp decree. ".

Exactly what I've heard, too. Never let the spouse order you out of the house. Never leave unless you feel physically threatened.

Quote:

We talked a bit about custody schedules, she is proposing something like 70/30, I said I would talk to my lawyer but that I planned on more 50/50. She didn't get angry, just grimaced and said she thought that would be too disruptive for the kids. I left it at that.

If she didn't want to disrupt the kids, HELLO, she could actually try to save her marriage instead of blasting it all to hell. She just wants everything her way.

My heart feels for your sitch, HopeTex. I'm hoping more veterans will help you out.

I don't have to worry about minor children in my impending D. (Thank you, God, for that!) And even though you and I do not want to D, we still have to be cooperative with our STBX. So I'm not sure DBing can be done any more than you are already doing.

You are protecting yourself and your family from the fallout as best you can, while being respectful, calm and strong. I admire that, it shows strength of character, and it shows the world that you are a man she is a fool to leave.

She is such a fool.

Thanks Nitty.

My W is taking the washer, leaving me the dryer. Makes sense - she's been starting things for 14 years that she expects me to finish. :-)

Keep pushing hard to take care of those young ones. I know you will.

I've been reading a lot of the old threads in anticipation of "the purge" and have been finding some helpful posts, like this one, written by "Coach." It made me think of you and your situation.

Quote:

LBS creed -

I can handle anything thrown my way. I am responsible for my actions, thoughts and happiness.

I will respect my WAS and let their problems be their problems. I am fun, confident, interesting and capable. I am attractive. I am interested in others' well being. I choose to thrive regardless of my circumstance.

I am a warrior.

I'm praying for you, HopeTex, and your W. I know the night seems very dark right now.

For what it is worth, here are my thoughts on your situation:

//I predict that she won't be able to afford to stay in the house like she wants.//
Stop predicting. The key outcome of a divorce is that her problems are her problems and your problems are your problems. You need to start thinking that way right now.

// I planned on more 50/50//
You need to start planning. I have 50/50 and I can tell you being a single parent is tough. How are you going to do that? Financially supporting 2 complete households, getting kids to school and after school activities, and the countless other things that being a single parent entails. You really do need to start planning. For me, it means accepting that I cannot do it alone and reaching out to friends and family for help. You should really start having those conversations now, so you have a real plan when the topic comes up in front of a judge.

//is good DBing or not.//
At its core, good DBing is accepting that your wife is a grown adult and has made a decision. It is giving her the freedom to make that decision and live with it�s consequences. You do that by separating from her and moving forward with your life. You need to accept that she is gone and start building a new life without her (yes, I know how hard that is to actually do). Maybe one day she will join you in that new life, but that is up to her.

//Am I making things too easy for her, or is this good because it is no trying to fight her on the idea of D?// You are not doing anything. She has made a choice. It sounds like that choice is Divorce. Follow the advice of your attorney and move through the process as efficiently and quickly as you can. Don�t do ANYTHING with the intent of manipulating her into returning to the marriage. NEVER act out of spite. You really just want to move through this as quickly as possible, protecting your rights and doing as little damage to your relationships as possible.

//do it all in a kind, loving and respectful way that protects my working relationship with the W for the benefit of the kids going forward." But am I missing some other DB perspective // No, that is what you need to do. Well said.

//I want to ALSO improve my chances of her changing her mind and wanting to be my W, either before or after a D.// Focus on building a life without her, not improving your chances. If she likes the life you build, and hates the life she built for herself, she may change her mind. But, this thought should not occupy any of your time or energy.

Again, these are just my thoughts; one opinion of many. I really am sorry you have to deal with this.

This is very very helpful JC, thank you so much for taking the time.

Life is just a blur right now, having to face a lot of changes and make a lot of decisions. And battling fatigue and sorrow. What a ride.

RockJC - keeping it real in 2014. Thanks for that. My D is looming 10/20 and I need to remember to do what works - and the only thing that is working right now is building pleasant memories and not engaging in conflict. So, divorce it is. Doesn't mean I'm quitting DB'g - just means she is pursuing a course of action I don't agree with and can't stop.

Long week. Met with lawyer, which was a surreal experience. Lots of those right now. Sometimes I feel ok like I have accepted the reality of what is going on. Then an hour later I can't believe this is really happening and it is terrifying and sickening. I think the worst moment is always when I wake up in the morning, there is a strange wave of doom and terror that floods over me, and a cold sweat.

Talks with the wife over D details are very cordial and productive. Hopefully we will get a lot of the details agreed to with out the lawyers having to help.

We are working together at deciding which of our furniture I will take, she is also helping me find good used furniture on the neighborhood computer boards. She is taking an Interest because she wants the kids to be comfortable there I suppose. Storing it in the garage for now. 3-bedroom apartment will be ready for mov-in at end of month. It is weird, I am glad we are working productively together on the D, even tho the D is the last thing In the world want. Part of me is being friendly and accepting the D, the other part is saying NO NO NO.

I should be happy that she is not crazy or mean. But in some ways it is harder when she is so calm and decided. No second thoughts there, at least that I can mind read.

We have t told the kids yet, I imagine that will be in the next couple weeks. Dreading that.

Having trouble sleeping, got a prescription. Helps a little but not much. Nest time I go to the gym I will be curious to see how much weight I have lost. Little appetite.

At this point I probably spend as much time mentally panicking about work as about the D. Still in the dark about what my employer wants to do about my department since my boss left. I have a lot of obsessive negative visions about being unemployed, living under a bridge. I am good at that type of stinking thinking. But I am doing what I can to protect current job, and starting to poke around for other options as well. So hard to exert energy of that work stuff when the D stuff has me so tired and down. God really seems to be throwing it all at me at one time.

Really finding it a challenge to get ready to take over my own finances. Been letting my wife handle everything for over a decade.

HopeTex - can't offer much except to let you know I'm pulling (and praying!) for you. Cordial is better, though it makes things very surreal.

Get some exercise. If you can't run, walk a long way. Your appetite will return. Mine has, now I'm running and swimming to get good endorphins in my system.

There is one thing I've been doing. Pondering one aspect of this mess at a time while visualizing laying the rest at God's feet. He keeps picking up that bundle and smiling at me, as if to say "Thanks for letting me do what I said I would do."

Quote:

Part of me is being friendly and accepting the D, the other part is saying NO NO NO.

I'm so sorry. I know this feeling. It's so awful.

Just keep asking God to give you what you need to get through today. Or to get through each hour.

The job will sort itself out. You won't end up under a bridge. You will survive this and be better for it, no matter how it turns out.

Glad to hear you are moving forward. I remember those feelings. They don't last forever, but they do last longer than you would like. don't be surprised if the cooperative relationship you and your wife currently have changes. Divorce is inherently adversarial.

Are you a member of a local church? Mine was a big help. I 2nd the recommendation to exercise. Wishing you the best.

Originally Posted By: HopeTex

Long week. Met with lawyer, which was a surreal experience. Lots of those right now. Sometimes I feel ok like I have accepted the reality of what is going on. Then an hour later I can't believe this is really happening and it is terrifying and sickening. I think the worst moment is always when I wake up in the morning, there is a strange wave of doom and terror that floods over me, and a cold sweat.

Talks with the wife over D details are very cordial and productive. Hopefully we will get a lot of the details agreed to with out the lawyers having to help.

We are working together at deciding which of our furniture I will take, she is also helping me find good used furniture on the neighborhood computer boards. She is taking an Interest because she wants the kids to be comfortable there I suppose.

IF you are going to mind read, at least do it this^^ way b/c you are not assuming the worst. But if you do get 50% custody, why are you the one with the "used" furniture? Without being petty, make sure you watch out for yourself.

Div Busting is partly about saving yourself, (improving and becoming the man you were meant to be), partly about saving your marriage as a result, AND partly about being smart in the event a divorce does happen. Separate the issues b/c one of these issues is about business. Take care of your "business", okay?

Storing it in the garage for now. 3-bedroom apartment will be ready for mov-in at end of month. It is weird, I am glad we are working productively together on the D, even tho the D is the last thing In the world want. Part of me is being friendly and accepting the D, the other part is saying NO NO NO.

Understood...very relatable description.

I should be happy that she is not crazy or mean. But in some ways it is harder when she is so calm and decided. No second thoughts there, at least that I can mind read.

Be glad for the NO batchit crazy mean stuff. But recognize you both had some deep seated issues about intimacy and trust and huge fears of abandonment. You were needy to the point of her probably feeling drained. She needs to see you strong and competent and like a man she could lean on, not one always leaning on her. Do you get what I mean?

Also, you have NO idea whether she has second thoughts. (What woman who sees a loving father with their children, would not have questions?) But she knows or fears that if she shows you the slightest doubt, you'll pounce on it and want more or some "Clarification" which would commit her in some way. That's why you must NOT bring up any R talks with her.

We have t told the kids yet, I imagine that will be in the next couple weeks. Dreading that.

Having trouble sleeping, got a prescription. Helps a little but not much. Nest time I go to the gym I will be curious to see how much weight I have lost. Little appetite.

At this point I probably spend as much time mentally panicking about work as about the D. Still in the dark about what my employer wants to do about my department since my boss left. I have a lot of obsessive negative visions about being unemployed, living under a bridge. I am good at that type of stinking thinking. But I am doing what I can to protect current job, and starting to poke around for other options as well. So hard to exert energy of that work stuff when the D stuff has me so tired and down. God really seems to be throwing it all at me at one time.

Really finding it a challenge to get ready to take over my own finances. Been letting my wife handle everything for over a decade.

Running out now but will post more later. Hang in there!

Thanks so much 25yearsmic, appreciate your thoughts a great deal.

I am taking a good amount of our furniture with me, so not being a pushover there.

I am struggling with it, but what I need to do, and what I am slowly doing, is taking more ownership of the process and being more of a man about it. It is hard because I am still in a lot of shock and grief, and still some denial at times. But I am gradually regaining my strength and direction at least temporarily, and when I feel strong I try to make progressn taking control: opening my own bank account, choose an apartment, putting to get her a list of D items for us to discuss, etc.

I have had some realizations that I have been adrift for a while in certain parts of my life, basically just letting my wife handle things. Finances is one. Need to take back control of that, that will def be a 180.

Originally Posted By: HopeTex

Thanks so much 25yearsmic, appreciate your thoughts a great deal.

I am taking a good amount of our furniture with me, so not being a pushover there.

I am struggling with it, but what I need to do, and what I am slowly doing, is taking more ownership of the process and being more of a man about it. It is hard because I am still in a lot of shock and grief, and still some denial at times.

Understood....So, can you now see that regardless of HER course of action, these^^^ are things you need to do, anyway?

But I am gradually regaining my strength and direction at least temporarily, and when I feel strong I try to make progressn taking control: opening my own bank account, choose an apartment, putting to get her a list of D items for us to discuss, etc.

^^^all things a grown mature man does...not trying to insult you at all. Just hoping you can see that the areas for improvement are in some ways pretty clear. And they're beneficial to YOU, as well as others. Those are the changes we most want to make, i.e. ones that we benefit from AND that help us in all our r's. Make sense?

I have had some realizations that I have been adrift for a while in certain parts of my life, basically just letting my wife handle things. Finances is one. Need to take back control of that, that will def be a 180.

^^^well said. There are books on personal finance that can start you from where you are, i.e. beginner, intermediate, or advanced, Good advice about how to invest and not put all your eggs in one basket, etc. It'll be great for her to see that b/c as you know, ONE thing women find attractive in their spouses is "security" and by that they mean not just physical security (like their man can stop a 'bad guy' or open up a pickle jar') but also that their man can help keep a roof over their head and food on the table. It's part of being a good provider. The more she sees you handling money well, the more she'll ---well---"value" you. And that's not shallow of her when you think about it from a mothers point of view.

When we have children I think a biological event happens. We fear for them, and we fear that if WE, the mothers, are injured or cannot provide, we want to KNOW that our mates can take care of our children (not to mention take care of us if we are sick or injured) . I know several women who stay married BECAUSE their husbands are good providers for their children, and or good fathers.

Good luck!