So I've been lurking here for a couple days, decided to register as it looks like so many people here have gone through what I am going through. Long story, but I will try to get to the point of where I am as quickly as possible.
WAW and I have been together 24 years, married 14 with one child. She left in November ... took till January to admit there was a OM which I suspected but she denied constantly. I really wish I would have found this site the day after she left I think I would have avoided so many mistakes I made .... but over the past couple months I have actially been doing alot of the DB suggestions not knowing it at the time through the help of some friends and my IC.
Since she left me I have done some good things with myself, I changed jobs and have done very well with my new one, type of job I dress well every day, better hours with alot more freedom to take time off for my son ( Never had that before). I found myself ... found God and have been going to church and reading the bible, giving my worries to Him which has helped me ten fold, take my son every time and she has actually been going with us .. she was more religious than I was but not anymore. I've been working really hard at being patience ... its so difficult for me but baby steps I am improving in that area. I am getting my motorcycle license in the next couple weeks... something I always wanted to do but never wanted to deal with that fight with her.
We hit a bit of a turning point a couple weeks ago. I had discovered through an innocent talk with her sister, that back in April/May when the WAW and I were going to MC (Was not working and we stopped after only 3 sessions after WAW had a blow up with the MC *red flag here).... anyways the sister told me that the OM was nothing like the man I am, he is self centered and all about himself ... told me he forgot her birthday and mothers day and that upset the WAW ... also upset me because she had told me he was out of the picture and she had not seen nor spoke to him which later I discover was all a lie. Anyways I was upset/betrayed (again) and set some pretty firm boundaries (IC idea) ... which upset her and we had a fight. I am not one to yell or name call ... but that day I did ... I actually felt good about what I called her, I know it hurt her but its like I needed to say it ... as far as I was concerned the marriage and relationship were over and I chose to start living my life for me at that point. That night I told her I just wanted to get through the D peacefully and be done with it. She had started the process back in March but stopped after I was there for her during a medical issue she had (We had not had sex in 3 years over what we were lead to believe was a medical condition ... turns out she is all better and has had sex with him ... something I am still trying to come to terms with) .. making her want to try to save our marriage back in April and May (Little did I know the OM was still in the picture).
Currently it feels like she is on the ropes, she has been making contact texting me throughout the day .. sharing her day and thoughts .. I have been polite and positive ..even supportive and avoiding at all costs any R type talk. When I drop off our son she gives me a nice hug. She tells me she is alone (I don't buy it .. I know the OM is still in the picture I just think he is not as available as she wants). She will text/call me late at night ... she cant sleep I will text back but not really engage in any R talk. She asked me a couple days ago if I was ok .. I told her I had a rough therapy apppt and am still trying to deal with some things (Its hard to hide anything from a woman who knows you in and out), but bottom line I was sorry for everything I put her through in our marriage ... sincerely apologized and told her I just wanted her happy. She replied that she isn't happy because the R she has with the OM "Isn't complete" ... I took this as a win .. baby steps .. through out the past 8 months she leaves little cracks open like this that I used to jump at ... I just left this one alone and told her I hope she had a nice day and I left. She has a habit of using me emotionally and once she feels all better she casts me aside, I get frustrated with that but have started to really detach so its helped.
Anyways thats where I am at currently... the limbo kills me .. I do find myself obsessing over her constantly but I do not engage in contacting her... I have been good about that. I have issues with the affair and what she has done ... but I would love to work this marriage out, just took me a long time to realize she needs to come back on her own .. me manipulating her will not result in anything long term.
So reading here ... and I really like to say what a great forum this is, people are positive and seem to be truly pro marriage and its refreshing as all the things I have gone through I know it would be a quick reaction to say run and start your life, I just dont want a life without my family, her , and my son ... but I know I can not say that aloud
So today she texted me ... apologizing for last night, I really didn't think much of it but looking at the exchange it seems the OM somehow disappointed her or something happened. She seemed to be trying to take it out on me and I deflected and basically wished her a good rest of her night and left it at that. She told me this morning that "Its my personal life I'm tormented by, I just need to get away alone" I didnt engage and wished her a good day. We have our free consultation with the mediator tomorrow, I know its been wrecking her as this is as close as we have been to actual divorce talks. I dont think deep down she wants this ...
Some back ground so you Vets can possibly shed some light. Her mother was diagnosed Bi-Polar, as was her sister .. reading up on this she is right at the age .. 42 .. so that mixed in with a little MLC and I have been on one hell of a ride .. factor in I was not always engaged emotionally with the increase of fights over the past couple years.
I have spent the time we have been seperated working on me, I lost about 20 lbs ... better job, I DJ'd 3 nights a week (Thurs/Fri/Sat) and I dropped all but the Friday nights ... still paying off some bills with that gig (This was a sore spot as it left her alone alot ... I have apologized for this and know it was a mistake to be gone)
So now I have taken a stance to not apologize or engage in talks about the past .. she loves to rehash ... and I just dont see the point. she has been texting me all day telling me about her work, the stress she is under and I have replied with the validation tips from this site.
I will keep adding as we go as that seems to be the way things work here .. thanks for the site and the ear.
Hey, Cali,
Welcome though I'm sorry you find yourself here. It's a great place and it seems like you're on the right track. It's hard but stop trying to analyze every little thing. Get out, GAL, do awesome things with your son, hang out with old friends, volunteer at your church... Basically, take care of you. This helps a lot with the pain and allows you to take deep breaths again. Stop being so available. You're busy. Get a life. You'll feel less like you're in limbo but you will still need patience (something I'm having trouble learning).
Others will have advice about handling the OM, I'm not experienced in that dept. you're amongst friends so post often.
See ya around.
Ss
Welcome to the board, Caliguy! Have you read DB or DR yet? If not, get on it asap.
Looks like you've got a decent start on detaching. Pat on the back. This is by far the trickiest part to navigate through. How the heck does one try to detach lovingly and GAL when one is desperately trying to hang on to what little he/she has left of the M? You try and then you try some more. It feels counter intuitive but detaching also known as pulling back or going dark gives your W the space she needs to get a taste of what life is like without you--even if it means she's spending all her time with the OM. Yeah, this $ucks big time but if she is absolutely determined to see it through then...
I've yet to confirm if my H is having an A but I suspect it. What other motivation(s) do spouses have for wanting to leave a M in such a hurry? So, even though I haven't confirmed it, I act "as if' he is. This way there's no surprises. It helps me mentally prepare myself for the worst so all those scary emotions that come with the "what if's" are already dealt with. There's no need to react with fresh pain every time I learn something new about my H good/bad.
I am sorry that she couldn't be up front with you about OM and that you had to ask her repeatedly when you kind already knew. I think i'm on that road myself except mine takes in interesting twist. I can't wait to talk with my DB coach tomorrow because my hope tank is dangerously low. If you can definitely check out the DB coaching. Use them for R advice and use your IC for working on you.
A few things: be best friends with limbo otherwise it will eat at you every waking minute. But, don't think of it as limbo. Rather think of it as time she has given you to work on yourself. Not her; you. If you're sincere about working on your M then change has to first start with you. Are you ready to do some deep soul searching? What are your flaws/short comings? What were her complaints about you in the M? What are your 180's?
Read. Read. Read. Learn as much as you can about yourself, your M, communication skills...etc. Check out the following books: "DR/DB or both but DR is more current", Gary Chapman's "The Five Love Languages", and if you're the spiritual sort there's James Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough", Ed Wheat's "Love Life for Every Married Couple, John Eldredge's "Wild at Heart" (this one is more for you.) If you're really ambitious check out Travis Bardberry's "Emotional Intelligence 2.0." The info on some of these books may appear to conflict with each other or even with DR/DB. So, it is up to you to take what you can from each and ditch the rest. The same applies for the advice you receive from others here. While we share a common misery each of our stitch are unique and therefore it's not a one size fits all kind of deal. Read Sandi's rules and Wonka's Validation cheat sheat. Use these as quick guidelines for help on daily encounters.
Keep all the positive changes going. Being a fantastic father to your S, taking care of yourself (look and smell good always), trying something new...basically be a man only a fool would leave. Remind her who you are and have always been--the man she fell in love with. Remember that guy? Bring him back. Who knows, you just may get a few stares that you'll actually enjoy.
The resounding message evident in GAL and detaching is putting the W on temporary hold while you work on you. This does not mean you have to stop feeling for her or accept that there's no hope for the M even though it may be a possibility. It means literally, friend zone her while you figure your stuff out. Let her initiate contact unless it's about your S.
I hope I've covered most of your important areas of concern. I like to be thorough but that can get really long. And, I'm in Cali too (just visiting) but I'm still on east coast time. Meanwhile here are a few posts from seasoned DBers that may provide a glimpse of hope.
This one is about going dark.
Going dark is the chance to work on you and to allow the spouse that left you to go through the journey they need to go through. If you start butting into that when they have made it clear that they don't want to be with you, then you come off as someone who is not honoring their request. You are short-circuiting the journey they have to go through to work out what is going on inside themselves.
There was obviously something very wrong that made them decide they wanted out in the first place. Oftentimes, it is probably the case that they are depressed and they have lost faith that anything can ever change. That patterns are set and are not reversible. It's a sign of depression to feel this kind of hopelessness.
One thing they knew for sure was that they did not want you in the picture. When people are depressed and confused about their identity like many people who request separations are, they become cognitively disorganized and impulsive in their choices. And when you are coming at them trying to make them stay with you, it just feels bad and like there's a pressure there to stay where they were.
And they don't want to stay where they were. They are wanting big changes. And if you stay the same as you always have been, and are unwilling to allow them to go on the journey that they need, or you are setting agendas about how they need to be, you just look like a controlling wench or [censored]. You become a representation of what they were trying to get away from.
As long as you keep pressuring them, you don't stand a chance. You will remain the embodiment of those bad feelings they are having. You will be something to avoid. You will make it very easy for them to continue to project or blame you for the bad feelings that reside inside of them.
If they are alone with those bad feelings still lingering inside, and you are nowhere in the vicinity, then perhaps they will begin to see that the pain they were feeling was really about something unhealed inside of them rather than something about you. You need to cut that link between bad feelings and you.
If you want there to ever be a future between you and your spouse, I believe you have to let your spouse take the journey that is rightfully theirs, even if they way they are communicating that to you [censored]. Even if it hurts like nothing else you've ever felt. If you love them, you have to let them go through that.
And you can't keep looking over to see if they are done yet. It's suffocating. Instead, this is your chance to learn new things. Walk around in your feelings and see what is unhealed in you that makes it so easy for you to feel crazy about this crappy situation in which you find yourself.
You have the gift of time now, and the focusing energy of pain. Don't feel all of this pain without getting your money's worth. Surrender to what is really happening. Face it head on. Summer in the MLC area says that you should stay dark UNLESS your spouse initiates a contact.
For me, there have been two main contacts. First, he called me several weeks ago, and we ended up talking for over an hour. Then, he told me that he wanted to meet with me to tell me some "news." At first, I did not meet with him, because I was not ready to feel more pain. I knew the news wasn't going to be good. But last week, I finally decided to recontact him and tell him that I was ready to meet to hear his news.
His news was that he was seeing the woman I had at first feared he was seeing. But I met when I was good and ready, and it was actually a really productive and authentic contact. I was ready to be calm and not plead and hear his news. And I think that even though he is with another woman, this contact was a good one, even though it was about painful stuff.
When I allow my husband to be the initiator, then he has to know that he wanted to see me. And from being dark, I, Sparky, have actually become a bit mysterious to my husband - which is hilarious, becase I'm the least mysterious person you will ever meet. And he was intrigued. And I liked it. And I'm going to keep doing this because I thing that not only is it "working," but I'm using all this time to grow as I never thought I would.
The worst thing that ever happened to me has been the best thing that ever happened to me. And even though I still feel a lot of pain, I mean that sincerely.
Here's Sandi's rules.
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patient on your behalf.
21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
And finally, WOnka's Validation Cheat Sheat.
"Sorry I interrupted you, I value what you have to say, please continue."
"You may be right." For surprising information: "Wow, you think (my computer time was detrimental to the kids)?"
For new info: "Gosh, I didn't realize you thought (I was neglecting the family)."
"I hadn't thought of it that way"
"I can see how it would feel that way"
"I do care. Tell me more about what you're going through"
"I am gonna have to think about that a little more"
"Hmmm, so you are saying xxx. Let me think about that"
"I can see you're really serious about this"
"I see this is important to you"
"I'd like to respond to you when I'm feeling a little less emotional about this"
"I understand why you might feel that way"
"Gee, I'm so sorry that made you feel unloved. I never stopped loving you, but I guess I didn't express myself well enough."
"Gee, it must have felt terrible to think that"
"I am sorry that you feel that way"
"I appreciate you being so open and honest with me"
Try and use "Would, will" statements. Do not say "should, could" if you can!!
"Wow, that's a lot to deal with"
"That sounds discouraging"
"That sounds like it would really hurt"
"It sounds like you are really feeling xxxxx"
"It sounds like xxxxx is really important to you"
"I can see that you are really upset"
"Would you like to talk about it"
"That really bothered you, didn't it?"
"How did you feel when xxxxxx?"
"What bothers you the most about it"
"What would help you feel better"
"I can see you are really uncomfortable about this"
"I can understand why you would be upset"
"So, you really felt insulted (or whatever emotion), is that it"
If H/W talks, just listen. Keep your questions impersonal.
WAS: I saw our friend Bob yesterday.
You: Oh? How is he doing?
WAS: I went out to that bar last weekend.
You: Did you have a good time?
WAS: I'm going to Tennessee this weekend.
You: Ok, I hope you have a nice time.
If H/W asks you questions, answer but be vague--don't launch into huge details.
WAS: How was your weekend?
You: Great, went out with some friends and had a good time.
WAS: Where were you last night?
You: I was at the gym.
WAS: What are you doing tonight?
You: Probably going out to dinner.
Validate his/her feelings, let his/her know you agree with him/her when that is true, but avoid criticism when you don't agree. you don't have to pretend to agree if you think he/she's wrong, but you can say it in a diplomatic way, like "I think differently, but I understand your reasons for feeling that way." (and then don't continue to argue about it.)
So there. This should be enough info for you to mull on for the next couple of days. Post often and hang it there. You're not alone!
Cali,
Being new here, I feel I don't have much to add except, I feel for you and understand that the limbo part of this is the hardest.
I feel the same way - but understand that it is giving us time - and maybe time is hope.
SO much great advice and for the most part I do feel like I am on track. I have not read the book yet, ordered it a few days ago so look to have it soon. This weekend she is taking my son up to see some of her family, just as well as I have signed up for a motorcycle course.....she does not know this I only told her I have plans all weekend. I had our S last night and as always he and I have a great time together, he feels safe with me plus the fact that shortly after she left me she made play dates with the OM and his kids, my son I think seen right through it.
Last night S calls his mom to say goodnight ... we do this every night when he is with the other. She sounds really down, after he said goodnight she text'd me and asked me if we could talk if I didn't she would understand, I replied once I put him down I was open to it. The past few days seems something is really going on with her. So I am sitting there and she called I told her I would call her right back (I didn't want to talk and have my son listen or hear). So I took my time and gathered myself, prayed, found center and called her back 15 minutes later.
Talk was ok, nothing pressing at first I was detached keeping things light... told her I took a 1/2 day just for me and went to the beach ... she was shocked. I did get a chance to tell her she has held onto the bad in our M and was re-writing our history.
Our Mediation is later today and I thought that might be bothering her but is didn't seem that way. She continuously said she is alone, worried she will die alone, like I said before I think the OM is still in the picture but just not as available as he once was ... maybe he is getting a taste of life with her .. she admittedly is not easy to be with all the time. She did probe a bit with me... I dropped a hint I am looking to rent a house with a friend ... she asked right away if it was a female and I told her yes ... seemed to bug her, told her I work with this person and its a mutual want that we would both like a house and I wanted out S to have his own room .. but nothing was there as far as a romantic level with this person. She did not like the fact I was "guarded" during the conversation, I did not really address it... told her I refuse to rehash the past nor fight with her. She is still upset over the name I called her a couple weeks ago and hung up the phone crying. Thing is ... I know its bad .. but seems that after I called her that, seems she started really thinking about what she wase doing ... I do not know if she is going through a Bi-Polar Manic phase, MLC, or what .. I did tell her that as a friend I thought she should really see a IC, her work is very stressful and will be till Sept and she says she doesn't have any time ... she doesn't talk to anyone during work or after (I don't buy it) ... she asked how I cope with being alone. I simply told her I have been staying busy and working on myself and left it at that.
This morning I dropped of S and she looked tired, was not ready for work as she usually is ... I asked if she was ok .. she nodded (not convincing) and I resisted the urge to press nor give her a hug even though it looked like she wanted/needed one .. just told her I hope she had a nice day and I left.
Sorry to find you here, but I second this is the best place to be if you need the strength, resources and even a chance to win your marriage back.
She did probe a bit with me... I dropped a hint I am looking to rent a house with a friend ... she asked right away if it was a female and I told her yes ... seemed to bug her, told her I work with this person and its a mutual want that we would both like a house and I wanted out S to have his own room .. but nothing was there as far as a romantic level with this person. She did not like the fact I was "guarded" during the conversation, I did not really address it... told her I refuse to rehash the past nor fight with her.
You really need to read DR. The question we always ask is " Is what I am doing driving my WAW closer or farther away from me?" Letting her know you were moving in with a female friend is childish and tit-for-tat. If your goal was to get her wall up again and shut down when she was looking to find someone to validate and listen to her and STFU then you failed. You need to reestablish that you are a safe place and remind her why she married you in the first place....that OM is not even an option in this area. This in DB forum's is called getting a 2x4 to the head...I have had the vets here give plenty of bruises so just know I am being hard here cause I want you to win. Next time I would just be "yeah I am moving in with someone" and then drop the conversation...she can find out later on but at your chosing.
If I can do it you can do it. GAL do the shocking 180s like you taking 1/2 day off to go to the beach....things that would suprise your wife but also bring health into your relationship. For me, I just started to do things around the house quietly....I used to announce everything so she would KNOW I did it for her...Then all of a sudden the lawn was mowed and two days later she notices and is genuinely touched. oh and detach away. going to the gym or anything physical is excellent for this.
Ok in your corner keep us posted
Yeah rayzzz I have been thinking about the conversation .... trying not to obsess with the thoughts but have regrets letting to much out, I know her lease is up in November and in a way I wanted to put some pressure on her to want to fix us by then .. I know all this is wrong and I need to focus on me, and not worry about what she is doing nor her plans. Seems her A is not all its cracked up to be, she is very needy especially when she goes through these emotional roller coaster rides and I have always been able to calm her and get her out of the funk .... making it harder for me to detach because when its bad she knows she can call me.
I am not going to talk about the house hunting ... just letting it go
As far as the GAL ... I have been doing well ... I have the S 3 nights a week, during the week I plat softball, I have been jogging , Saturday nights church and I rarely miss.... Sunday mornings I play football. All the physical activity I dropped close to 20 lbs, she bought me a shirt for fathers day and said its the first time she had to go down a size ... a little win and baby steps.
I struggle with the detaching part, I have stopped asking about the OM or bringing up the A ... but I see how badly she is hurt and struggling, she has said the past few days she feels totally alone (I used to tell her that was her choice not mine). REading all this here I have it on my mind and will continue to work on it .... I have detached some .. but not to the point I think I need to ... I asked her if she was ok this morning knowing she wasn't ... I should have just wished her a good day and left it at that.
So reading here ... and I really like to say what a great forum this is, people are positive and seem to be truly pro marriage and its refreshing as all the things I have gone through I know it would be a quick reaction to say run and start your life, I just dont want a life without my family, her , and my son ... but I know I can not say that aloud
So today she texted me ... apologizing for last night, I really didn't think much of it but looking at the exchange it seems the OM somehow disappointed her or something happened. She seemed to be trying to take it out on me and I deflected and basically wished her a good rest of her night and left it at that. She told me this morning that "Its my personal life I'm tormented by, I just need to get away alone" I didnt engage and wished her a good day. We have our free consultation with the mediator tomorrow, I know its been wrecking her as this is as close as we have been to actual divorce talks. I dont think deep down she wants this ...
Some back ground so you Vets can possibly shed some light. Her mother was diagnosed Bi-Polar, as was her sister .. reading up on this she is right at the age .. 42 .. so that mixed in with a little MLC and I have been on one hell of a ride .. factor in I was not always engaged emotionally with the increase of fights over the past couple years.
Just so I am clear, are you suggesting she may be bi-polar? OR are you saying she's at the age for MLC? OR both? And also, how does that affect your choices in this situation?
In other words, is the A more understandable to you if she is bi-polar? (I know some bi-polar women act out that way).
Would the "diagnosis" change your course of action?
I have spent the time we have been seperated working on me, I lost about 20 lbs ... better job, I DJ'd 3 nights a week (Thurs/Fri/Sat) and I dropped all but the Friday nights ... still paying off some bills with that gig (This was a sore spot as it left her alone alot ... I have apologized for this and know it was a mistake to be gone)
So one difference if you were to reconcile, would be that Her love language of time together, would be "spoken" more b/c you'd make more time for her?
And you feel certain you have communicated this to her?
So now I have taken a stance to not apologize or engage in talks about the past .. she loves to rehash ... and I just dont see the point.
I hear you and a lot of MC's just rehash and then cement all the problems in one's head. But the Spouse who was unhappy enough to leave to have a PA, needs some reassurances that if they return, the marriage will not revert to what it was.
They won't come home unless they believe the marriage they left, can be better/different than before.
So how are you demonstrating that?
Also, next time she brings up the past, you can adopt one of the following "mantras" that tends to help things, without escalating. Just some suggestions.
Example 1 is when she brings up something painful to HER, which may have at least a thread of validity in it.
"W, I'm sorry I hurt you. IF I could do it all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."
Example 2 is for when she brings up something you do not recall at all, or very differently.
"W, wow I don't recall it that way at all - but I"m sorry you were hurt. If I had it all to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."
Example 3 is when she brings up something that you have discussed ad nauseum and which you are certain you have already apologized for AND worked on changing...(so she can feel assured it will not happen again, which is a legit desire of hers)
"W, I know we've discussed this before & I've said I"m sorry about that. But I am happy about the changes I've made and now I'm just working on creating a better present and future. How are YOU doing these days?"
she has been texting me all day telling me about her work, the stress she is under and I have replied with the validation tips from this site.
Good for you. Some will advise differently about what approach to take when an OM is around, but read the Div Busting/Div Remedy books and find what is authentic for YOU to do with this.
My DB coach said to "Listen like a lover" (validate/support, show interest) and I found that it helped A LOT.
Granted, if the topics had been inappropriate, like h complaining about OW, I would not have done that.
But when h shared about work or interpersonal family issues, I definitely wanted to bond with him. And I did and it did help. He felt more relaxed around me and in time, we built on that.
I will keep adding as we go as that seems to be the way things work here .. thanks for the site and the ear.
Keep up the good work.
I am going to post a letter next, and you see IF any of it resonate with you.
It may not, but reflect on it, okay? It's just to help you see what role you played in this, if any.
Here is that letter I referred to, and it's from a WAW to a h who posted here. They were not married to each other, but the letter's author relates to the wife of the man posting here, and HE had made a lot of changes within,so.....make sense?
Okay...
FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET, AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….
"When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.
Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.
When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.
Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.
And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.
Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.
And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to WIN.
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to "win".
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell."
_________________________
Just give it some thought. And keep posting here!!
Welcome CaliGuy.
Just another vote that you read DR. Seriously saved my sanity, and will hopefully save my marriage!
Glad you've found this group. It's great.
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Just so I am clear, are you suggesting she may be bi-polar? OR are you saying she's at the age for MLC? OR both? And also, how does that affect your choices in this situation?
In other words, is the A more understandable to you if she is bi-polar? (I know some bi-polar women act out that way).
Would the "diagnosis" change your course of action?
I think its both honestly, but even if it were one or the other .. even neither... it does not change how I feel nor what I would do. At this point I can not control what she does, nor will I ever be able to, I can only worry about me and try to be the H she would be foolish to let go.
I have spent the time we have been seperated working on me, I lost about 20 lbs ... better job, I DJ'd 3 nights a week (Thurs/Fri/Sat) and I dropped all but the Friday nights ... still paying off some bills with that gig (This was a sore spot as it left her alone alot ... I have apologized for this and know it was a mistake to be gone)
So one difference if you were to reconcile, would be that Her love language of time together, would be "spoken" more b/c you'd make more time for her?
And you feel certain you have communicated this to her?
I dropped 2 nights when I was under the impression we were trying to reconcile (OM still in the picture and I didnt know) I have told her all those nights I was away thinking I was giving her the $$ she wanted when all she really wanted was me there is one of my biggest regrets. So I think I have been fairly clear on this.
So now I have taken a stance to not apologize or engage in talks about the past .. she loves to rehash ... and I just dont see the point.
I hear you and a lot of MC's just rehash and then cement all the problems in one's head. But the Spouse who was unhappy enough to leave to have a PA, needs some reassurances that if they return, the marriage will not revert to what it was.
They won't come home unless they believe the marriage they left, can be better/different than before.
So how are you demonstrating that?
[color:#009900]I have changed, temper is better, not completely as I slip here and there but its been better and me going to IC was a big part of showing her I am trying to change me ... without broadcasting it. I go on saturdays and she usually asks me how it went, what we talked about .. I don't really let her into this part much and just tell her I am working on things and its not an overnight fix. (Alot of my IC is about how to find the identity I lost .... the anger thing seems more her fabrication as I allowed her to press my buttons and had no exit strategy .. I use that tactic now and its helped
Also, next time she brings up the past, you can adopt one of the following "mantras" that tends to help things, without escalating. Just some suggestions.
Example 1 is when she brings up something painful to HER, which may have at least a thread of validity in it.
"W, I'm sorry I hurt you. IF I could do it all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."
Example 2 is for when she brings up something you do not recall at all, or very differently.
"W, wow I don't recall it that way at all - but I"m sorry you were hurt. If I had it all to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."
Example 3 is when she brings up something that you have discussed ad nauseum and which you are certain you have already apologized for AND worked on changing...(so she can feel assured it will not happen again, which is a legit desire of hers)
"W, I know we've discussed this before & I've said I"m sorry about that. But I am happy about the changes I've made and now I'm just working on creating a better present and future. How are YOU doing these days?"
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Wow, GREAT advice and something that I will start using NOW ... this forum is what I really needed, just wish I was here months ago .. may be to late but I am not throwing it in just yet.
she has been texting me all day telling me about her work, the stress she is under and I have replied with the validation tips from this site.
Good for you. Some will advise differently about what approach to take when an OM is around, but read the Div Busting/Div Remedy books and find what is authentic for YOU to do with this.
My DB coach said to "Listen like a lover" (validate/support, show interest) and I found that it helped A LOT.
Granted, if the topics had been inappropriate, like h complaining about OW, I would not have done that.
But when h shared about work or interpersonal family issues, I definitely wanted to bond with him. And I did and it did help. He felt more relaxed around me and in time, we built on that.
I will keep adding as we go as that seems to be the way things work here .. thanks for the site and the ear.
Keep up the good work.
I am going to post a letter next, and you see IF any of it resonate with you.
It may not, but reflect on it, okay? It's just to help you see what role you played in this, if any.
[/quote]
Thank you 25yearsmlc , that letter did touch home and one I will need to read a few times ... this thick skull of mine, hard to unlearn all the bad traits that have piled up over the years.
I do and have taken responsibility for my part in this .. even told her as much last night ... interesting part of that conversation .. and a topic she has brought up a few times as of late. I think she has noticed mt 180's ... she stated last night as she was starting to get upset that now I have fixed some of the issues that someone else gets to reap those benefits that I learned at her expense .... I used to firs back "That could be you" but I have long since stopped saying that and just let it go. I read somewhere here the WAW doesn't really want me but hates the idea of be being with someone else ... I did assure her there was no one as I am concentrating on me and still have alot of work to do but I am happy with my progress so far.
Great stuff and letter. I can relate. My WAW for the last 6 months or so of our marriage would complain about the things that were lacking, flowers, romance, love notes, etc. I would do those things and then fade off. She shared when she left that I would do those things just so she could get close enough again, only to then have me stop doing them once she got close. So I see the logic and how the heart can harden with time.
I can say that I can't say that I felt blindsided by her dropping the bomb that she wanted to separate. A part of me had been drifting away by some of my needs not being met either. I found reasons in myself to blame her for me withdrawing (seems pretty common) and it was justified in my eyes at times too.
When my wife and I separated, I went on a full court press to win her back and while it worked initially, a wise female told me that it was actually doing more damage because those were the things she wanted all along.
In many ways, I tried harder when I lost her and I could see how females can look at it as a game. Gaining that trust back and willingness to give it a chance unfortunately won't happen until she is ready no matter what we do. The more we push, the faster they run. It hurts like hell because even detached, most of us LBS want nothing more for reconciliation.
TO answer ... I ordered the books and am awaiting them .. not so patiently .. seems God has really been working on me developing patience ...lol
I was doing well today, happy with wishing her a good day and leaving and not engaging. She had been texting me around lunch for the past few days (Just sharing work talk and I was validating and doing well) ... today nothing till about an hour ago asking if I was going to be at the free mediation consultation at 6. (Phone call last night was not wonderful but I did not slip and argue with her) I guess deep down I was hoping she was going to text me telling me she cancelled the appt. I wonder if the call last night was her way of wanting me to talk her out of it ... I know I know .. I am thinking about it to much. I only replied that I had one errand to run, pick up our S and I would be there at 6 .. her reply was a "Ok Thanks" Ugh
I am going to need some help to get through this mediation thing with a cool head ... I know they are set up like a fast food chain and couldn't care about the lives that are being destroyed as long as they can sell their flat rate fee. I will put on the poker face and get through but I hope the finality of it all gets to her. She seems to be on the fence a bit lately ... but her pride will hinder her actually admitting she is making a mistake.
Detaching won't happen over night. It's a skill that needs to be fine tuned with experience. So, don't be so hard on yourself when it's not coming or happening as you'd like. They'll be slip ups but just get right back on the saddle and continue.
I agree with Rayzzz that flaunting your idea to move in with a female friend did nothing to help your cause. It may have boosted your ego to see her reaction to it but then what? You only reinforced that you are not a safe spot to land. We don't do things to purposely get a reaction from them like making them jealous, especially. You're a friend that's respecting her autonomy and freedom to make up her own mind not an enemy who's taking every opportunity available to jab at her. Next time you want to say/share something consider if it will bring her closer to you or push her away. If you find the urge to blurt something out of feelings, check yourself because it may be resentment trying to make it's way to the surface.
Consider going to a counselor if you haven't/don't already. Work out your issues in a safe, productive manner. And definitely, definitely start on DB coaching to get solid advice from the experts. I just had another one today and it had been three weeks since my last one. A lot of negative stuff crept up and made a home in my head in those three weeks. Talking with Chuck help get me back on track. Even with the possibility/reality of OW he was able to get me focused and solution oriented again. I use him for R advice and I see my IC for me.
Settle in for the winter...
Thank you 25yearsmlc , that letter did touch home and one I will need to read a few times ... this thick skull of mine, hard to unlearn all the bad traits that have piled up over the years.
WHILE it's hard to "Unlearn" bad habits, it's also harder to do it if you have no positive role models. Do you have any? If you do, talk to them! IF not, find some. It's so much easier to make the changes stick when you know what TO DO, as opposed to just knowing what Not To Do, (which many of us learned as kids when we saw our parents fight, retreat, not communicate and NOT resolve conflicts,)
...so a lot of us know what NOT to do, but what we all need as much, is to learn how to handle things that come up in life, with a healthy loving approach.
Life throws more curve balls at some couples than others; and some couples are subsidized financially or emotionally, by their families, in ways that greatly lessen the every day tensions.
So it's not how many conflicts we face, but how many we resolve, that matters.
I do and have taken responsibility for my part in this .. even told her as much last night ... interesting part of that conversation .. and a topic she has brought up a few times as of late. I think she has noticed mt 180's ... she stated last night as she was starting to get upset that now I have fixed some of the issues that someone else gets to reap those benefits that I learned at her expense ....
Understood^^. NO WOMAN is going to enjoy the idea that her mate has, for instance, finally decided to "make time" for a r, but not with HER...and IF she believes the changes are real AND that they will last, it'll be awfully difficult not to wonder about her choice to leave. (And you want her to wonder...a lot.) Being annoyed at the start, is no reason she won't second guess her choice to leave and you want that second guessing!
I used to firs back "That could be you" but I have long since stopped saying that and just let it go.
You can express understanding of her frustration. Your words herein were self deprecating and that's not a bad tone to take. You can say "Well, better late than never...??" OR "I wish I'd made these changes earlier too, b/c I LIKE who I'm becoming, but all I can do is go from this day forward..."
and then drop it. But validating her commentary seems appropriate, b/c it sounds valid, don't you think?
I read somewhere here the WAW doesn't really want me but hates the idea of be being with someone else ...
Wow, Stop mind reading. How can someone apply a clause like that in the statement above, ^^^ and project it onto other couples? Yikes! I've never seen such a sweeping and dangerously negative presumption here.
WAWs' don't generally want to see their h's with OWS, but we don't KNOW if they want their h's back or if they want their h's back changed, or what.
EACH situation is different - even when they have things in common, there are NO "one size fits all" generalizations.
I did assure her there was no one as I am concentrating on me and still have alot of work to do but I am happy with my progress so far.
I suggest you not even bring up the concept of OWs. Just stay in your sandbox working on you, and monitor for results.
Sounds as if you have had some positives in your situation.
I regret letting the possible female roomate out of the bag .. she asked and I told her ... I think I am not going to move for other reasons and will try to atleast slip it into a conversation just to try to remove that nugget.
I have been seeing an IC and its been going well, she is helping me deal with finding my own identity and stopping the overthinking things out of my control.
So we went to the free mediation appointment (I just got home actually) I actually will chalk this up as a minor victory for me. I arrived early as usual with my son ... she was there a little early for her but appeared visibly nervous/on edge. I actually printed out the 37 rules and was reading them just to get myself in a more controlled state given the circumstances. She asked what I was reading and I just told her something I need to read and left it at that, then I put it away and asked her how her day was .... she was short and out of habit but not really looking like she wanted to talk asked me how my day was .. I told her it was a good day and shared a pretty funny story that had happened .... she was taken back .. I think she expected me to be hostile during the meeting and I was actually being pleasant .. not overly happy .. but just in a good place and content. Meeting went as I thought ... just some basic info and rates and what to expect ... and we left. I put my son in the car and turned to her and told her goodbye and to drive safe ... she gave me a weird reaction then said "What we are not going to talk about this?" I calmly replied ... "Not right now I need to get our S home, fed and showered we can discuss later" and off I went .... She was mad ... not sure why .. I think she may have been looking for a fight to justify the separation ... how knows .. I was not going to let it get to me.
Baby Steps
Wow, you did very well. A+ for the day!! 
So last night I had S call to say goodnight as usual .... she sounded very chipper and happy which kind of bugged me but I let it go quickly keeping in mind I can not let the bad thoughts fill my head.
This morning I dropped off S with her as usual and she looked a touch stressed, I said goodbye to my S and wished her to have a good day, she asked why I have been so cold as of late ( Detaching I think is what she was referring to) I simply said I have not been cold in fact I have been pretty happy and nice with her, and it seemed she was being cold with me. I gave her a hug and went to leave and she asked me what I thought about the mediation appt. Not wanting to really get into it I replied that I honestly had not had time to think about it much, after we left I grabbed dinner with our S and we finished watching our movie, went to bed and then up and at it this morning and I would give it more thought today at work. She then asked me if it was what I wanted (A little hope here possibly? Maybe she is rethinking it? baby steps) ... I used the validation tip and told her no its not what I want, given the chance I would have done alot of things differently ... I have been making some progress and changes in my life that I am happy about, and left the topic at that.
So she started becoming upset ... a little background ... I had never completed my degree ... I was close but never seemed to have a chance, we bought a house, I was remodeling that, then we had our S ... then she lost her job for almost a year and I picked up more gigs on the side .. I busted my ass but was not ever enough it seemed. She is very career and driven ... I was in the same steady decent paying job for 17 years and DJ'd on the side for more and that was a big issue in our marriage. Since the separation I found a new better job... I was promoted within 4 months to GM. , only DJ the friday nights currently. The DJ thing I enjoy and it pays nice, I would drop it if we were to reconcile, but with ths amount I still give her plus my bills and expenses I do not want to let easy money go just yet.
This being said, the mediators talked about the child support and spousal support ... truth is I give her a good amount of money every month, if we were to go through with the D ... she would in fact be paying me and that drives her nuts. She seems to want me to keep paying and reward her decision to D and keep her high lifestyle, while my quality of living is significantly less (my punishment I assume) and I had told her in the past I will not be taken advantage of that way.
I have started getting myself into online courses so I can finish the degree ... have not made any mention to her something I am doing for me and my son.... however I do have a testing appt that I needed to switch days with her on so she does know that I am pursuing this though I kept it very short and low key, the classes are expensive but its the way I can get my degree complete without sacrificing time away from my GAL approach, paired with my resume I will be better off in 5 years no doubt.
I said goodbye to her this morning as she was starting to get angry and yelling at me ...I detached/went dark .. did not pick up the phone after she immediately called twice nor did I respond to the nasty text.
Hope I handled the sitch correctly .. that Book can not get here fast enough ... lol
She is going completely nuts on me right now ... throwing everything at me via text .. 20 hateful vicious texts .. told me they got into an accident so I would call .. I call and realize she only did it to get me to call ... I said goodbye and hung up.
I have not replied .. times like this I have little to no hope.
25, that letter is hitting home for me, too. Thanks for posting. I'm in it for the long haul.
She is going completely nuts on me right now ... throwing everything at me via text .. 20 hateful vicious texts .. told me they got into an accident so I would call .. I call and realize she only did it to get me to call ... I said goodbye and hung up.
I have not replied .. times like this I have little to no hope.
Our progress is not linear, just so you know. You can have very low times, and then things can be better. Seriously, I know what i'm talking about on this.
In 2006, i told my sisters I'd give my m a "10% chance of making it", and I meant it. Sometimes you have to expect a divorce to face what it would really be like.
As for this^^ episode of crying wolf, and not calling her back, I don't get it.
I'll need to read what happened earlier to learn why you didn't call her back or text back. Did she have son with her? Why didn't you call or text her back? What were you trying to prove? (I will read your other post I guess to find out)
Before I say anything more or know more, I will say "don't play games for games sake" or to "win". There are no "winners" and "losers" in this. Okay?
The only person you are trying to "beat" here, is the old you, not your spouse.I can't tell if you are working on you to 'spite her' or to please yourself, or to help the m be restored or what.
And I don't know why you are not telling her SOME of your changes so she'd know that the old marriage isn't going to return. which she surely fears.
I can't tell what of her complaints you think you should work on or if you are just on your own path that she is not part of, etc. Which of her complaints, if any, did you find had some validity?
And now I'll just ask you,
What is YOUR goal here? And it's okay to have more than one.
So last night I had S call to say goodnight as usual .... she sounded very chipper and happy which kind of bugged me but I let it go quickly keeping in mind I can not let the bad thoughts fill my head.
This morning I dropped off S with her as usual and she looked a touch stressed, I said goodbye to my S and wished her to have a good day, she asked why I have been so cold as of late ( Detaching I think is what she was referring to) I simply said I have not been cold in fact I have been pretty happy and nice with her, and it seemed she was being cold with me.
So instead of exploring what she meant OR validating her perception, you dismissed them. You said they are not "real" AND THEN you did a tit for tat and said "no, YOU are"...what's that all about?
Didn't you just get some tips on how to validate and how to get MORE INFORMATION about what your spouse feels, (which you are supposedly interested in getting) instead of telling them they are wrong to feel that way?
You blew that.
I gave her a hug and went to leave and she asked me what I thought about the mediation appt. Not wanting to really get into it I replied that I honestly had not had time to think about it much, after we left I grabbed dinner with our S and we finished watching our movie, went to bed and then up and at it this morning and I would give it more thought today at work.
maybe asking her if she wanted to discuss this further "at a better time for both" would have been a better response. Your answer starts out fine but then you gave her nothing to go further with. You said you "would give it more thought" but I guess a better response would be "and then we can discuss it".
You ended your commentary with why you had NOT thought about it, and then gave her no lead as to when you would think about it or talk about it. Not a terrible answer, but just sort of goes nowhere.
So why would she believe you two could communicate better, IF this is what she's getting from you now?
I'm not clear about what your 180s are, other than not losing your temper.
She then asked me if it was what I wanted (A little hope here possibly? Maybe she is rethinking it? baby steps) ... I used the validation tip and told her no its not what I want, given the chance I would have done alot of things differently ... I have been making some progress and changes in my life that I am happy about, and left the topic at that.
THIS PART IS FINE^^^^....assuming you had a concerned (b/c you take this seriously) tone and a contrite one (b/c you realize you did make mistakes and this is not all about her and how wrong SHE is for having an affair, etc.)
So she started becoming upset ... a little background ... I had never completed my degree ... I was close but never seemed to have a chance, we bought a house,
The background is fine (as background) but I don't get what the background or not finishing college has to do with her being upset---Here^^^, SO why is this relevant?
I was remodeling that, then we had our S ... then she lost her job for almost a year and I picked up more gigs on the side .. I busted my ass but was not ever enough it seemed. She is very career and driven ... I was in the same steady decent paying job for 17 years and DJ'd on the side for more and that was a big issue in our marriage.
IF I were to take her POV on this, maybe it's this way:
HER love language was "quality time together" and it was not filled, by a long shot for nearly 2 decades and your whole marriage. And that's b/c YOU chose a job you enjoyed (and justified -- b/c you needed the income ---but which you obviously could have gotten elsewhere if you had only tried), and that gig took you away on ALL weekend nights and another night,
so she'd get zero time with you (with no end in sight, right?) and NOW that you are sep, NOW YOU suddenly are able to find a job that allows you free time,
b/c now that she is with OM (whom she believes she would not be with had she not been so lonely for so long, which was all b/c of your unilateral choices to make her alone all that time....)
and NOW you make these changes AND don't want to discuss them with her...yeah, I can see why that upset her.
Can you?
Since the separation I found a new better job... I was promoted within 4 months to GM. , only DJ the friday nights currently. The DJ thing I enjoy and it pays nice, I would drop it if we were to reconcile, but with ths amount I still give her plus my bills and expenses I do not want to let easy money go just yet.
Dig a little deeper and see if "her POV" (above) might have a lot to truth in it...
This being said, the mediators talked about the child support and spousal support ... truth is I give her a good amount of money every month, if we were to go through with the D ... she would in fact be paying me and that drives her nuts.
Not sure what this^^ means, and or if you are mind reading. Can you explain?
She seems to want me to keep paying and reward her decision to D and keep her high lifestyle, while my quality of living is significantly less (my punishment I assume) and I had told her in the past I will not be taken advantage of that way.
aside from MAJOR NEGATIVE mind reading here^^^,
isn't it possible she feels you were under-employed in the marriage b/c you were not that ambitious until she left, AND OR you simply enjoyed DJing (which you admit) and You didn't want to quit, plus SHE worked hard and made enough money for you guys....and now that you are sep, YOU are suddenly able to both increase your income AND free up some time for "someone",
and so, you are assuming she wants you to "reward" her decision to divorce you...which puzzles me greatly. How did you arrive at that leaping conclusion? Based on her being sad??
I have started getting myself into online courses so I can finish the degree ... have not made any mention to her something I am doing for me and my son....
why not let her know? I mean, is it a GAL or a 180 or both? You don't have to trumpet it, you can just let her know b/c you want to share SOME of your life with her IF she asks...
you know, I'm getting a really competitive vibe from you now, and that does not feel like you want to restore your m. Or not as much as you want to be "right".
What's your reaction to that? Again, what is your goal here?
however I do have a testing appt that I needed to switch days with her on so she does know that I am pursuing this though I kept it very short and low key, the classes are expensive but its the way I can get my degree complete without sacrificing time away from my GAL approach, paired with my resume I will be better off in 5 years no doubt.
I said goodbye to her this morning as she was starting to get angry and yelling at me ...I detached/went dark .. did not pick up the phone after she immediately called twice nor did I respond to the nasty text.
what was the nasty text? Why did she get angry at you or yell at you? I'm confused. You went to the mediators and both got some information. Then when she asked for feedback from you, you blew off her request to discuss it, b/c you "had not had time to think it out" and then what? What is triggering her anger? Be honest here. Why are you shutting down?
Hope I handled the sitch correctly .. that Book can not get here fast enough ... lol
Not sure you handled it correctly b/c I'm not at all clear on what the situation is.
I don't see progress though, if that's the question. What is really going on and can you just state facts without spin?
I mean, don't make the assumptions you are making and DO tell us which of her complaints might have had some validity.
I keep hearing you refer back to the affair and again going to how she "lied" about OM, but I don't know why a woman who was happily married would do that in the first place.
And we both know she was not happy IN the m (hence the letter). So let me ask you this:
The letter I posted on this thread (I think) from the WAW, you said some of it resonated with you.
Which parts?
What are you DOING to make your wife believe marriage to you now, would be better/different than before?
Hi Cali,
So sorry you are here. I hope the DR book arrives soon. It has so much good info and guidance.
I wanted to follow up on 25's post, although I am no where close to a vet around here.
One of the most valuable lessons I have learned here and from my IC is to ask WAS to clarify. Whenever my H throws out an accusation or asks a question like "why are you being so cold?" (I've never gotten that one, but the principle still applies), the response I would have is "I'm sorry you feel like I'm being cold. Can you explain why you think that?" And when they answer, the response should be something along the lines of "I'm sorry you thought that because it was never my intention to give you that impression." This validates what they are saying and it gives you insight as to whether you DBing techniques are taking you in the direction you want to go. It also lets them know that you are listening and that you heard them.
I take H's response seriously and look inside myself to see if my actions/words are bringing him closer or pushing him away. I question whether what I said or what I'm doing is truly DBing? Is what I've said or done going to make me someone they want to come home to? The last thing any of us want to do is anything that they could construe as justification for walking away.
So far, it seems to be working well and has opened up some little bit of productive and positive communication with him.
Like I said, I'm not a vet and I have a long way to go in my own sitch. So take away what you will.
Anyway, I wish you all the best. All of us here want the same thing ... a restored M that is happy and healthy. I hope that yours is one of the success stories.
2T2M
Sorry to intrude on your thread CaliGuy, but to 25yearsmlc, Maybelle said to seek you out to take a look at my sitch. Thanks and sorry again CaliGuy.
Sorry to intrude on your thread CaliGuy, but to 25yearsmlc, Maybelle said to seek you out to take a look at my sitch. Thanks and sorry again CaliGuy.
will do. If not today, then this weekend.
Hi,
I am very new to this forum and have been reading posts. For some reason this post really stood out for me. I have been reading the replies from 25 years MLC and others. Wow! They are so incredibly helpful! I bookmarked them and will come back and reread.
CaliGuy... sending you strength... I know this is the hardest thing we have all been through. :-)
Take care.
2t2m No worries at all, we are all here for help and 25 has already shown me how far off I was when I thought I was on track.
I have both books on the way, seems I am having difficulty with the detaching/validation combination. Seems its a fine line to walk , GAL but still try to connect and get more information.
Looking back on the marriage I took on the extra work because I felt she wanted the money, she always stressed about that regardless of where we were .. .turns out she wanted me there more, this is something I have talked to her about and have openly regretted.
The 180's I have made:
I have opened up the weekends, I dropped the Saturdays when I commeted to our relationship (I did now know OM was still in the picture as she was not honest about that)... so with this new time I have been availible for us doing things as a family .. or I have done things with my son while she did her thing (I did make sure never to ask with who or where and got to a point it just didnt matter as I was working on me)
I have gone to church on a regular basis ... not one of her big issues with me, but one I actually pursued on my own, I have become increasingly more spiritual since losing my family.
I lost a good deal of weight ( however gained a few back recently so I need to get back on that)
I have done alot better not getting angry, using a softer voice and talking calmly to her.
So today she texted me about our S ... and apologized for "Being a B" ... but then pretty much said its because I walked away and would not pick up the phone, in a sense saying sorry but its your fault. I did not really engage, we made small talk via text but nothing deep... she took S up to her family and I told her to drive safe and have a good time, its been pretty quiet since.
I was at my motorcycle class all day so I felt good about my stride in the GAL department. Wish the book would have arrived today I have a good deal of time I could spend reading. So I will read here and try to learn / improve more.
2t2m No worries at all, we are all here for help and 25 has already shown me how far off I was when I thought I was on track.
I have both books on the way, seems I am having difficulty with the detaching/validation combination. Seems its a fine line to walk , GAL but still try to connect and get more information.
Looking back on the marriage I took on the extra work because I felt she wanted the money, she always stressed about that regardless of where we were .. .turns out she wanted me there more, this is something I have talked to her about and have openly regretted.
I know you have said this^^ before. But you also ENJOYED the work and admitted elsewhere that you in fact could get a better paying regular job and thus would have more free time for her. I just feel as if you are still defending your decision and then saying you regret it, but defending it, again.
When you make a mistake, admit it and don't bother defending yourself. The only time you can offer an explanation (not an excuse) is when she asks, but merely repeating that it was a mistake "BUT..."...the more you just sound as if you would do the same thing again with the same facts.
You are trying to show that it's NOT the case, right? So don't defend it so much. Admit the error, correct it, and move on.
I heard a therapist say once "A problem being handled, is no longer a problem." I like that.
The 180's I have made:
I have opened up the weekends, I dropped the Saturdays when I commeted to our relationship (I did now know OM was still in the picture as she was not honest about that)...
why is OM relevant to your choice to open up your weekends? You keep going back to HIM as a topic, but what's the point here? You made a needed change "but I did not know OM was..." Well so what?
The change was needed, right? So OM does not matter. OM is a symptom of problems in the marriage, not the cause of problems.
so with this new time I have been availible for us doing things as a family .. or I have done things with my son while she did her thing
Good^^...
(I did make sure never to ask with who or where and got to a point it just didnt matter as I was working on me)
also good ^^^
I have gone to church on a regular basis ... not one of her big issues with me, but one I actually pursued on my own, I have become increasingly more spiritual since losing my family.
I'm happy you are finding comfort in your faith. It can be such a great tool to help us learn what truly matters.
I lost a good deal of weight ( however gained a few back recently so I need to get back on that)
GOOD news!
taking care of your health and your appearance are two visible ways to GAL and do some 180s that are consistently appealing. And healthy! (obviously.) It shows self restraint, and self respect and some discipline as well.
It's attractive, although I know you're doing this for YOUR health and appearance, and her finding it appealing is simply some gravy...
I have done alot better not getting angry, using a softer voice and talking calmly to her.
That is good to do. Any new behaviors that are positive? I mean it's great you are NOT doing the "losing temper" thing, or getting too angry AND using a softer voice.
Are there any 180s or things you can do or say that would be in HER love language or would fuel her "love tank"?
What are HER love languages? And yours?
I do suggest you read The Five Love Languages when you get a chance. It's not a hard dense book, it's an easy read but the information is a great reminder to me to accept and welcome the love my h shows me, even when it's not "wrapped" in the paper I would have chosen, if you get my meaning.
Do you get what I mean?
Anyhow, good luck!
Ok .. another book I need to pick up ... Thank you so much for all the advice, starting to see things a bit clearer ... baby steps
And yes I realize the OM is a symptom of the issues we had and its pretty much how I have viewed it ( when I was not so hurt and upset about it) the only reason I brought it up was that I feel like a fool for thinking we were working on us and he was still in the picture when she had told me he wasn't .... once I came to the realization it didn't matter if her were 10 inches or 1000 miles away all I could do was work on me ... I have been in a much better place and seems in the past few months that relationship has lost the luster.
My S called (As we agreed he would regardless of who is is staying the night with) ... she took him up to her parents for the weekend. I chatted with him and I always enjoy our talks .. she has him do it on speaker, always has ... so I make sure I am happy, asked about his day and he asked about mine, I told him all the things I did and that I just got home, she actually talked to me a bit ... just light stuff. Then after asked me about my schooling via text ... was a nice talk .. baby steps
Today so far was a good day, finished up my motorcylce course, felt good to get out of my shell a bit. W texted me a pic of our S I replied back with a positive about our son ... I continued with my GAL attempts .. ran some errands and am currently doing doing laundry and cooking. Fighting the urge to text her, I did find the 5LL online and can kindle it so I loaded that up and will start to read it today.
She just texted some more about our son, I am not sure how to take this ... I am concerned about being friend zoned ... I have not replied as of yet. Might wait till I am finished with the things I need to get done today.
W dropped off son, she seemed ok, we had absolutely no connection ... kinda wish something was there but atleast there was not a fight either. Just seemed very business like she was in a hurry so she could get to the store and back to her place. Hold true and keep my eye on the prize I suppose.
Dropped off S this morning with her, she invited me in, very buisness like ... son showed me his room, he had hung up some posters and was very proud, I noticed 2 pictures that W and I had bought in Costa Rica, Pointed them out and mentioned it was a nice fun trip. Talked to W for just a bit ... failed to cut it short and be the one who walked away .. She mentioned she might have a work dinner I offered to take S (Didn't buy its a work dinner but honestly it does not matter either way). She asked if she could give me a hug or joked and offered a handshake (This bothered me .. almost like being freind-zoned) During the hug I told her I hoped she had a good day as I knew she was worried about her job and didn't like it very much, confirming to her that I have been listening and care about her troubles at work.
I do not consider this morning a positive, just felt there was no to little connection there, just deflating and I know I can not give up ... but today its just hard.
So the W texted me on her drive to work, first about our S then about her Job and then her brother ... in the past I was not always open to talking .. reading the 5LL I think this was one of her issues with me, so in fear that it hurts my detach .. I feel if I can just listen and validate with these talks it builds small positives. Felt like we were at least talking and connecting somewhat up till she got to work. totally quiet and dark after that, she did just txt telling me she needs S trunks and goggles for swimming.
Guess I will take this morning as a positive .. baby steps ...
About 1/2 way through the 5LL I really feel like a fool... reading this forum and that book (Still waiting on DB and DL) I know I could have avoided this mess 2 years ago .. but here I am praying its not to late to salvage it all. I miss her and my family more than I thought possible
Don't feel to bad about the 5LL. I read and did those last July. My WAW had apparently long checked out and actually had me stop doing them. It was a fools errand.
Don't feel to bad about the 5LL. I read and did those last July. My WAW had apparently long checked out and actually had me stop doing them. It was a fools errand.
I get that ... but her LL was more about affirmation and quality time .. however mine is physical touch and affirmation .... things I am now trying to use without chasing ... I thanked her today for setting up S dental appt and I had told her a month ago I would take the day off to take him (180 here) the fact this new job I have alot more freedom to do things like this and attend school activities for my son is a huge and much appreciated 180 for me ... I have always wanted to do these things but couldnt and she resented me for that.
Tonight took my S to buy cleats and guards for his soccer season, took him out to dinner and sent her a pic via text ... as she did for me this weekend. She is going out to dinner (Sales Team) not sure if I buy the with who .. but does not really matter honestly .. I had a eureka moment in the car today asking myself am I more upset over losing her .. or losing her to another guy ... I can not control the OM issue so all I can do is make changes for the better for me regardless of what she does. .... baby steps and keeping a PMA
Had the S make the call to WAW as is the normal, we always have it on speaker ... she said she had just got home from the dinner, sounded a bit tired but at peace. Asked S about his day and he told her what we did and she sounded happy. I am actually a really good father ... one of the things I have never had an issue with so thats always been something I can hang my hat on. Family is important to her and I know if there is a shot for us working through this .. that may be the lighthouse in the storm, now just to try to clear up the weather I have control over and avoid hitting the rocks.
Nervous about tomorrow morning ... just hope for a positive ... been so deflated since Thursday ... we did however plan a movie as a family on Saturday and I invited her to church that evening ... she was not clear on if she accepted so as I have read I just let it go .. if she goes great .. if not ... nothing I can do I will go as planned.
So I woke up early this morning, just one of those mornings I was up and ready to go 30 minutes earlier than normal. I dressed for work, a little more so than normal just to feel good. I woke up S and got him ready, combed his hair and had him all set to go early. Drove to W place ... she noticed right off he was happy and chipper (We were goofing on the way) commented his hair looked good , also commented that I was dressed up and asked if I had a meeting up north, I told her no, she also noticed the necklace I bought my son .. (Was a cross I picked up last night at the Christian book store, just happened to be next to the restaurant we had dinner at) I have been wearing the same one for a few months and she thought I gave it to him but S informed her we both have one now ... you know little boys .. anything to be like Dad is a plus. SO I took that to make an exit, and told her I would let them two go, she dropped the clothes I gave her and gave me a hug, not a great one ... so I told her have a good day and a soft kiss on her forehead and left. The kiss on the forehead may be perceived as pursuing but for me its a way to show her I care about her (staying out of the friend zone), without saying it ... just felt right and was innocent enough ... not like I went in for a real kiss. She seemed like she was in a good mood, and I was happy I did not do anything to alter that ... small positive, baby steps.
Glad you feel like it was a positive morning!
Try to keep your expectations down.
Today so far was a good day, finished up my motorcylce course, felt good to get out of my shell a bit. W texted me a pic of our S I replied back with a positive about our son ... I continued with my GAL attempts .. ran some errands and am currently doing doing laundry and cooking. Fighting the urge to text her, I did find the 5LL online and can kindle it so I loaded that up and will start to read it today.
She just texted some more about our son, I am not sure how to take this ... I am concerned about being friend zoned ... I have not replied as of yet. Might wait till I am finished with the things I need to get done today.
2 things.
First, GAL is crucial. You cannot detach without GAL --and you cannot protect your heart or even function well, without some detachment.
PLUS GAL is needed to help you not be so co-dependent.
But you counted GAL as doing laundry and cleaning, and it's really NOT. That is housework, and doing that means you got off the couch. I mean, that's needed, but it's NOT GAL.
I'll give you some ideas about what GAL is, (like getting OUT of your comfort zone, pursuing something you always wanted to do, meeting NEW people and or reconnecting with old friends, doing a NEW activity, going somewhere, learning something new or exploring something new, etc.....and it's all for YOU and your spouse need not even know about it ---but if you are enjoying yourself, that will show from the inside.
And chances are your spouse will learn of the GAL indirectly, or by asking where you were sometime and you can be vague but once she hears you were "out dancing" or "at a Spanish class working on my degree", she WILL take note.
But again it's for YOU. NOT for her and not as a tactic, but to have that sense of good living, within you. Once there, it radiates outward and that happens to be attractive.
If it helps your r to reconcile, that's great. If not, (we know GAL does not hurt your r), then you'll still be way better off than if you had not GAL so it's a Win Win.
Secondly, seems you are noticing positives in the interactions... so now you want to STOP those? Why?
You think BECAUSE there are positives, you must be in the "friend zone"? You are not understanding the friend zone then.
Do NOT worry about that anyhow, at this point. Right now you need to HAVE some decent, non explosive non escalating interactions - and a whole lot of them for a long time ----BEFORE you worry about being in the "friends only" zone.
And fwiw, my DB coach said when h reached out to me, to "listen like a lover" which meant to validate, support, LISTEN, applaud loudly for the 1% of positives, (very hard at times but also, very effective), and this can be done without pursuit.
She said "do not to cut him off".
OKAY NOW Sure, if he'd talked to me ABOUT an OW, that would be so wildly inappropriate, that it would be immediate friend zone and I'd have cut it off -- b/c it's cruel and insensitive.
But your w is simply sending you kid related pics and texts, right? Maybe a joke or neutral comment now and then? Okay, so Build on that. Don't blow it or confuse friendly interactions with something bad or think "she's taking advantage of me". That's nonsense.
Build on pleasant interactions - without increasing YOUR expectations. Do Not stop the pleasant interactions.
Sure, Go ahead and be a bit less available if you want to appear to be GAL, but don't worry about friend zoning at this point. IMO, It's very premature to worry about.
RE GAL:
IMO Solo activities are generally not true GAL, other than those for your health...For instance, a lot of folks think taking a walk is GAL, whereas it's really just a healthy way of letting off steam. It's a good thing to be sure, but it's not really GAL in my book.
Working out is great, but is it GAL? IT's taking care of yourself and is a must in my book. But true GAL? I don't want to quibble, but it's just not a real 180 GAL in my book. Then again, for some maybe any exercise is such a 180 that it is a GAL...
Some of this is my opinion obviously, but you can double check in the DR/DB books about her suggestions.
I define GAL generally, as exploring/learning/doing/meeting/going
to a NEW place/topic/place/people.....= GAL.
For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, (where temperatures are at their most extreme) even in the winter.
And btw, I had 3 kids including a newborn baby (so you know I don't want to hear about how you are 'too busy' to GAL).
Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life.
IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.
I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.
I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (our son wrestled). Both activities helped my kids too, but got me in touch with community people and other parents.
I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.
I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv in Hollywood. It went very well. Also write jokes for other comics.
I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.
I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.
I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding it.
Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license. (Long held dream of mine and an amazing adventure for me.)
Went skydiving, another long held dream. I loved it so much I did it again ( and will do it again this year! Just Yesterday I watched another DBer jump for her first time. JOY!!)
Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)
I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. Eventually I found a work out partner and socialized after working out.
(Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly of their long LONG cold winters).
In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression.
Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.
Took a pottery class (very unlike me to do, but I really liked it a lot).
Maybe a wood working class exists where you are, or some other crafts thing or an automobile repair class would appeal??
I Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of H or me being active duty.
(Wish I had joined sooner!!! I met two women who became life long friends and were SO helpful to me there. We are still in touch and I count them as close friends).
Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking
There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot.
Other than pilot training & skydiving, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.
Hope this ^^ gives you some ideas...
25YMLC First off Thank you so much for all your advice and input .. I will try to respond just so I am clear .. so hard via the written word sometimes. And your GAL suggestions really do help me on understanding all this.
Ok, I think the GAL thing was a little misunderstood .. I was not doing laundry and thinking that's GAL .... my latest GAL activity was taking a motorcycle course last weekend, was an all weekend event, I passed and walked away feeling really good. I have always wanted a Harley and am thinking about buying one in a few months as a B day present to me (180 I never spoil myself) however fearful though that will upset the WAW ... but at this point ... its for ME not her however I am uncertain at this point if that will create some issues between she and I ... with the financial issue she is having post the mediation blow up .... she will see it as money I should be giving her)
My other GAL since the separation are Softball on Wednesdays and I had quit playing football on Sundays in order to work on us .. I started back up after that failed as I realized I was doing things for her and not for me. I hope to take this Church class for 2 hours on Tuesdays but having my son may interfere with that....I also run 3 miles about 3 times a week, this is when she picks him up (Mon/Wed/Fri), we make the exchange and am all set to go, say goodbye and start running... (like you said .. maybe a 180 but for me and my sanity it feels just as good as a GAL .. .and I lost 20 lbs)
Ok .. noted on the friendzone ... hard pill to swallow there, but I understand the logic behind it.
Talking to my IC ... she had suggested more social type things for me, I admittedly lost my identity after being with her for 24 years, I have been forcing myself to accept invitations to parties, I typically bail on that but as of late I have been going, have another coming up soon. For me its a time thing, I do have my son often and when I have him we do things together, come to think of it we were looking at Kayaks yesterday, its something he and I did last year and he loved it, maybe I just pull the trigger and buy it and can do things with him and the GAL .. something different type approach as well. I will think about this one this week.
I think right now the hardest thing is detaching, GAL , and not jumping at any self percieved bone she throws, and finding me again regardless if we R I know I must do this. Just heard a sermon saying in relationships during conflict you almost have to do the opposite of the impulse you feel ... pretty much spot on for me.
Ugh
So after Thursday mediation consultation and her Friday blow up (Coming to terms finacially she would end up being worse off) nothing was brought up at all. Everything was quiet today until just now, she TM me and asks if I had read through the information they gave us, I told her I had in fact read it all over the weekend. She wanted to get together and discuss finances ... this will be a fight no question. I give her a huge chunk at the moment and if we D and go 50-50 custody she will end up paying me, sure financially that's in my benefit but nothing I have ever brought up to her ever. So I told her I thought if this is what she wanted we should mediate, told her I do not want a divorce. That I thought it was a mistake. She told me she made her decision (after the last big fight 3 weeks ago) I reminded her that just after that she gave me her word and promised to try also (I took that at face value as it changed 4 days later) I told her I just did not think Divorce was a good idea, but if that's what she really wanted then mediation was most likely the best solution, let them run the numbers and find a middle ground.
She is close to starting her period, she always starts getting really confrontational around this time, I know in a few days she will be very emotional and with the fog it doesnt help much. Nothing I can really say or do here it seems but not let my frustration show and just be calm. I just do not know sometimes .. I read others stories here and know its never over, but this is the longest kind of pain I have ever known and just so hard and exhausting with no end in sight
I did not sleep well at all last night, up twice with her in my thoughts.
Yesterday she was fishing for a fight ... I did not engage (usually hard for me). For the past few weeks she had mentioned how alone she was, we were connecting ... then the free consultation mediation meeting seemed to trigger something in her, feels like OM is again back in the picture, I know its a symptom .. but still stings .. I have not mentioned it at all, nor intend to ... just wish it would play itself out .. seems she bounces from him to me and all I can do is become someone she would be a fool to leave, knowing when she is really low and down its me she calls .... not sure if being there is a good idea but it does feel that its not something that pushes her away so I take those as positives.
In the TM when she is like this she always brings up a different shortcoming for a reason why she can not come back, alot of these things I have addressed but in reading threads/stories .. its taken years for her to get here and she most likely does not trust I have actually made these changes, possibly upset it took this long.
I am a bit deflated, but trying to stay positive .. at this point I just don't know, I love her but feel she needs to work through all this ... Even if she decided to give our marriage a shot I know she would never agree to any transparency agreement ... she is the type who has to control everything and for a long time I let her as it was easier than the fight. Does one make the D easier?? .. I know she will not agree to the financial terms and part of me thinks that's my gift of time, I am going to try to not think about it or her today (180 on a personal level type stuff) ... focus on work for the rest of the day and stay dark, easier said than done.
Hope you all are well and I pray for positives in your life today.
Hey Cali. Don't assume what she would or wouldn't be willing to do. Look at the mountains we on this forum are willing to move to change and grow. No guarantees, but if the day comes she decides she wants to make it work to the same level you do she might be different than she is today.
Zues ... thank you ... you are right, man I seem to have a problem thinking for her, need to work on that.
So today I held true, buried myself into work, she TM me that the pharmacy contacted her that my prescription was in and she did not know what that was about or what it was for .... I did not reply seeing no need as it was not something that needed to be addressed right then. Around lunch as I was out she TM asking "Are you there?" I finished my lunch (I have a bad habit of replying right away and am working on this) and then later replied That I was, been busy and I would pick up the prescription and have them change the number .... she then proceeds to invite me to dinner with our S ....Small positive ... but I am nervous she wants to hash out the $$ issue that I know will be a fight but like I just said .. I can not think where her head is at, I will take a chance at dinner in hopes I can just be happy and positive and it leaves a plus in the good side column.
She also confirmed Saturday that she will drop off her car, and us 3 go to the movie the S wanted to see, and Mass Sunday morning (To me the Mass is huge positive)I told her both times work for me and left it at that.
Sunday Mass I typically go Saturdays, but I am free this Sunday so I think it will be a good thing for us ... I will take S afterwards and probably go kayaking, give her the invite and see what happens ... she usually does her own thing on Sundays but I must just accept that for what it is and worry about me ... baby steps.
Good job CaliGuy. Baby steps. GAL. You're doing 180s.
Keep up the good work.
So had the dinner tonight, I was a little nervous she would bring up the $$ but she didnt, not sure why she invited me, may have had something to do with my son finding the coupons and maybe he brought it up as it is a place we have gone for dinner lately just the 3 of us. I kept things light, engaged in conversation and made it a point to really look at her and listen as she talked. It was a nice dinner, no connection but nothing negative (baby steps), I told her after church in the morning I was planning on taking S kayaking and she was welcome to go ... she informed me she already made plans so I said ok, thats fine and told my S that I was looking forward to it (180 not asking about her plans, nor getting upset about it) .. she also told him he was going to have alot of fun. I know she has plans with OM ... it stung a little but I have just accepted this thing will run its course or wont .. its out of my hands regardless ... and the fact we were out at dinner, going to go to the movies Sat ... church Sun ... I just figure I am getting more time to make good impressions and intend on making the most of it. I ended dinner and left as S was eating desert as I had to get the family dog his food before the store closed, thanked her for dinner and promply left ... chalking today down as a small positive, knowing I need to string thousands of these together along with performing my 180's and GAL to get where I want to be.
So today was really little to no contact. Looking back last week we were doing well till that free mediation consultation, seems from that point on she withdrew. I have not pursued ... tonight is my night with S and we always call at 8, around 7 she asked if he could call now, she was going to the store and just finished her jog ... pretty sure its a night out with OM and I was a little upset but just had S call and decided not to focus/obsess on it ... Huge 180 for me, she mentioned she was having a bad day and I only told her I took care of S camp (180 me taking care of something like this) and hoped her day got better and left it at that.
Some things bugging me, TM a few days ago over the $$ she stated something like I need to just let her go she gets that I am still in love with her, I have not said the ILY for some time, refusing as the last time I said it months ago her reply was "I know" that one stung alot ... along with other things she has said the past few months .... all MLC type stuff as I am learning, not sure how long this ride is going to last but I have just tried to pray, stay centered and have tried to give it to God.
Today I focused on work and actually had a good day, played with S ... at peace for the most part other than the small hiccup stopping myself quickly before I got upset and obsessed.
Ok feel like a fool, she just texted me asking me if I feel like talking after S goes to bed. I know I am not detached as I can feel the anxiety already.
I will need to pray, review the golden 37, and avoid any R talks which may be hard .. how do you side step that land mine without causing more issues?
Say you're not prepared to talk about the R, it's late etc. or that you'll think about X and get back to her.,.
So the call last night was short, she was tired and I told her after playing with her son I was too, we talked some, I used m soft voice and was positive, but not overly upbeat .. but mwe mostly just about our S (He was off all day, just kind of grumpy and I asked him what was wrong, he didnt want to open up with me which caused me concern as he always tells me whats up ... I asked if he wanted to be with his mom, and he told me he wanted to be with both of us at the same time, I reassured him and let him knw we both love him and this has nothing to do with him, its something between her and I. I did not tell the WAW this because I know it adds pressure and guilt and looks like I am using him to get her back... I was guilty of doing this before and have refused to make that mistake again) ...we had no connection on the phone, she did have a long pause and typically I would ask what was wrong and we would go into the R talk, I did'nt pry (180 for me ... progress) and just left it at that. This morning I dropped off S , had him all ready, hair combed, fed ... she did not notice as she was running late, no hug or connection I told her to have a nice day and left to fight traffic.
I find I am detaching a bit better but need to work on the expectation aspect, the book should arrive today (tracked it last night...4 days late) so this weekend I will dive into that and have actually been considering the coaching sessions once I read the book. Funny, how I know I need to detach, but seems in the last week her and I have lost that connection again... she was telling me about work and yesterday she had a bad day there but did not want to share, I asked but did not pry after she told me "bad day but its over" (its been an on again and off again feeling for me) and it bothers me ... but all I can do is stay positive, GAL and continue my 180's
Her asking me if I want to talk, not sure if thats her reacing out, feeling lonely .. I was in the mindset she was going out with OM and just accepted it.... the fact she called me I take as a small positive though I know ... no expectations .. so we will see what the weekend brings.
This roller coaster is ... ughh .. not something thats fun
So dropped S off this morning as I mentioned, get to work and dive into it (helps me not obsess and over analyze) she texts me to call her. its right about the time she gets into work (we have chatted in the past during her commute) ... so I call thinking the worst but ... just go with it, she was having an issue with her car .. ends up she accidenly left the dome light on, she was stressed about work and started telling me all about it. I listened, even remarked that the guy she was talking about was the same she had told me months ago pissed her off, I was supportive, validated, almost tried to fix her problem but stopped myself and just listened (Huge 180) ... as I got off the phone I wished her to have a better day, told her go get em... and let the guy have it (another 180) I got off the phone and was happy .. baby steps, she shared her work issues with me, connected, and I was able to just stay quite and listen, made progress.
Now she is texting me about $$ and how much I am putting in, if I have taken my car off the insurance, ... I have yet to reply, but will ... just frustrating how one second you are connecting, the next you are treated like a customer ... alas if it were perfect I would not be knees deep in this trying to change and save my marriage.
Roller coaster is tough but typical. You're doing it right. Ok to respond in a friendly way, but don't charge in or try to take up ground as then she'll be more hesitant to get closer in the future. I know cake eating is a concern and no one wants to be friend zoned, but you aren't doing anything for her you wouldn't do for a neighbor and I don't think that's your biggest concern right now. My DB coach thinks that's an overused fear, friendly connection in many cases is a good step.
And yes, do the DB coaching with or without the book. It has been TREMENDOUSLY helpful for me. I go from hopeless and confused to confident and poised every time we chat and it has made a difference.
I am glad that you found our online community and are taking steps to improve your personal situation. I know that you would benefit greatly from our Divorce Busting Coaching sessions. Divorce Busting Coaches help you focus on your goals and come up with a plan to get your marriage headed back in the right direction. Call me to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004.
I know cake eating is a concern and no one wants to be friend zoned, but you aren't doing anything for her you wouldn't do for a neighbor and I don't think that's your biggest concern right now. My DB coach thinks that's an overused fear, friendly connection in many cases is a good step.
Yup. My DB coach said the same thing. Don't concern yourself with the "friend zone". Besides, it's far better than the "A-hole husband" zone.
[quote=Zues126]
Yup. My DB coach said the same thing. Don't concern yourself with the "friend zone". Besides, it's far better than the "A-hole husband" zone.
Ok that made me laugh and yes you have a very good point.
I feel like I dodged a bullet today ... things between her and I seemed good but once the mediation thing hit .. seems her fog rolled back in and OM is back in the picture a little bit (not sure .. speculation, but she has plans on Sunday and typically thats always meant her and him ... I did not ask)... so we started talking $$ .. I have been putting less in the past few months ... now if we D this number is going to dramatically decrease according to all I have been told. She asked how much I am putting in, why the difference, I explained these are the numbers I have, she made mistakes in that I was paying all the car insurance, not just mine .. and other items etc, that I was open to discuss and did not want her strapped.
Placing a nugget in her head that she is going to have to take a hit financially and not live this life she is now, she has a condo near the beach ... and she cant afford that and our son in the private school along with the nice car she has aswell. I am not pulling the rug out, offered if she needed help this month I would put a bit more in.
Might be wrong, but the way I see it , she needs to realize (hard I know with the fog) that the life she thought she might have, is not exactly what is going to happen .. OM or not ... at the least it may make her rethink it a bit ... not that this is how I want to save my marriage ... I just see it as a way to get more time ... delaying her filing for D at the least. ... I may be wrong in this line of thoughts I am not sure.
Regardless ... I did a nice 180 as far as the tTM talk on the $$ , remained calm and patient and did not get upset nor say anything that upset her ... baby steps .. we always have fought about $$
So last night she was TM about our son, I took an oppurtunity earlier in the day to thank her for always making arrangements, (dental appt that I volunteered to take the day off and take him - 180) and getting his school supplies and that sort of thing, just a positive, I know I do not think her enough. Later that night she returned the geture and thanked me for taking him to soccer, and asked me to give our dog a kiss on the nose as she missed him (When she left I made sure to find a place I could keep our dog, we had lost the other one just prior to the BD and my S was crushed) So I sent her a pic of the dog on the bed and she remarked that she was shocked I had made the bed, I told her that being cleaner (Big issue with her and I) was the first thing I worked on after our split ... and kept it light hearted and fun .. .something like "Don't be so shocked, I know you might think it was photoshopped but I assure you I make my bed every morning
)
This morning I picked WAW and S up at the mechanic and we went to the movie, she told me S was sad about the dog we had lost last year ... a German Sheppard ... in his mind that dog kept our family together and once he died so did our family (She does not know he feels this way, and I haven't told her as I don't want the guilt thing to work against the sitch) so I get there and he asks me how much a GS puppy costs, I was happy and positive till that moment and just walked him outside as she was talking to the mechanic and talked to him, my heart broke a bit but I promised him one day we will get another GS, just can not do it right now.
At the movie I felt no connection, she makes a point to have S between us and I seen her phone had several TM on it ... I know .. no expectations, and no idea about the TM nor can I do anything about it .. but sitting there I realized how much I miss her, how many mistakes I made over the past 9 months and even before then, was hard not to be sad about it .. thankfully I could get away with it watching the movie .... after she still had 40 minutes till her car was to be done and offered lunch, I declined ( personal 180 for me .. detaching the best I can) ... told her I had things I need to take care of and wished them a good day, told them I would see them tomorrow morning at mass. Killed me but I did it .. baby steps ... not that I GAL ... just decided to come into work and catch up on a few things.
Bottom line today ... I just miss her and our family,... I didn't show it .. .but I do, I know I need to be patient and prayed for strength, hopefully I can get some sort of positive sign soon just to hold on to that sliver of hope we all seem to chase, for now I just wait, GAL, and pray.
Ok .. home after just going out and doing some things ... Thank goodness the DB book finally arrived, time to read read read and hopefully start turning my sitch around.
So WAW texted me pic of our S with his friends, I made a comment about our son looking so big, she complained her throat was killing her (her health has always been an issue and one ov ther reasons she told me she left) so I suggested she try some tea and honey, seems like she has a minor cold starting maybe but I just tried to be sympathetic .. she asked if I could watch S tonight so she could sleep .... kind of upset me as she told me she had plans tomorrow ( I assume with OM ) so I am looking at the phone like why would I ?? I typically would do this just to do something positive .. however 180 I told her I had plans with friends ( true but I could have easily taken S along) we will see how it plays out, our typical 8:00 call did not happen .. I TM at 8:30 and asked if he was calling ... she said "I thought you siad you were busy .. He is calling now" I talked to S ... on speaker as usual and told him I had a great day .. was tired because I just got home .... detach .. 180 .. baby steps
Ugh
She just TM me this morning, said they just woke up,and she will get him ready, she said she will go to the later mass, I offered to go .. but then she said she was not feeling well.
Disappointed but I am going to take S as planned ... guess its for the best as much as I would like for us to attend as a family, seems wrong that she goes when she plans to be with OM later that day, thought maybe through God her fog would lift a bit... I am sure the guilt must be brutal. This [censored] .. but nothing I can do .. PMA and keep working on me in hopes she figures it out.
So, this weekend went well, not so much R wise, but me wise. I just feel good, I realized I need to let go of expectations ... which I did sitting at church. I picked up S and was not in a rush (180) partly because I have really focused on my issue with patience... and partly a blunder .. I typically go to mass Saturday evening .. thought it was at 9:30 this morning .. but was at 9 ... was a little late which I hate .. again .. did not let it bother me PMA was in full sail today. Went with S kayaking had a great time, WAW TM and I replied in short, sent some pics and she commented how happy he was.
S7 and I had some talks ... turns out he looks at her phone and sees she texts OM, WAW commented a few days ago he is always asking her who she is TM ... she made the mistake of having OM around within a month after our sep .... I had no idea he was OM till 2-3 months after. She used "playdates" with his kids as a cover, something I was furious about after I discovered what really was going on ... I have since let it go but S7 is pretty smart and knows OM is not daddy. So I just told him he should not snoop in moms phone, and left it at that. This does explain his change towards her and the fact he prefers to be with me, not that I am without fault in all this ... just a tragic casualty in our situation, and one I hope she can somehow mend with him someday ..... I will however not speak a word of this ... no positive can come from it ... she most likely knows S seen the OM texts .. if not she should just be more aware.
Anyways (had to let that out somewhere) .... so I have gone dark since ... not by choice, I washed my phone ... I did email her to just let her know there would be no call .... she finally emailed me back about an hour after he would have called asking if he was ok, I told her he was great as we had a terrific day and then promptly said good night.
When we got home I was reading the DB .... about half way in and looks like I am about to get to the nuts and bolts... the butterfly effect did touch a nerve, I know I have much more to learn and to go .. and it got me thinking about typing up my goals .. something I would have never thought of... I also think I may start a new part II thread as I just kind of dove in without the scuba gear on ... had no idea what I was supposed to do. And if I can see any shadow of hope for my M, some kind of progress and positive ... and a chance for R I am going to go for the counseling sessions. I have my IC appt next Sat, along with being invited to a 40th Bday party, Sunday softball prctice for the new season .. so GAL is in progress aswell
All in all , I feel better tonight, PMA and not all strung out on her and what she may or may not be doing.
I dropped off the S this morning ... I gave her all his uniforms as we discuseed plus some other items (I actually remembered .. this is a small but important 180 for me remembering the little things I was asked) .... she thanked me for the items. She has been fighting a cold/sore throat all weekend, and said she wasnt feeling well, I said goodbye to our S and told her I hoped she felt better and promptly excused myself.
Little history about that exchange, over the course of her A .... when she was depressed/not feeling well/in the hospital I dropped everything and helped her, was like I mended her wing and once she was better ... felt like a thanks/screw you / and off she went. So me just wishing she was feeling better rather than hug her and console her was a HUGE 180, as I closed her screen door I seen the disappointment in her eyes, felt like [censored] .. but I know I needed to do this. I always helped her feel better, always there for her ... even in the most impossible circumstances that I am not going to air here.
Been dark all day thanks to no phone, she emailed me around 9 asking when I would get my phone, and said she felt sick ... asked if S was with me tonight as she "was not feeling well nor thinking straight" I informed her it was her night and hoped she felt better again cutting it short. She emailed me later in the day asking if I could take him as she was leaving work early .... my impulse was to 180 here and refuse .... but she is sick and he enjoys being with me so I figured in this case he and whats best for him is more important than me DBing at the moment.
Dropped of S this morning, short exchange with the WAW, asking when I would get the phone. brief exchange and I cut it short and wished her a good day and told her I hoped she felt better (She told me she was working from home today)
Feeling like I am detaching, but really wish that I would see some signs here... I know .. expectations, patience, all that. I am about at pg 150 or so in the DB book .. I miss my family being together, miss her .. keep reminding myself this was not my choice and I have little say in the matter .. all I can do is focus on me and become better, some days this is easier than others. Still no phone .. focus on work and pray for some little miracles along the way.
I wish I could give some comfort. I find I am still holding on to the expectation that my H will come to his senses. It's hard to let that go of that and focus on the future without him.
I do not know how people with young children get through this. I have a lot of admiration for how you've been handling her irrational behavior. Not sure if I could've done it.
Nitty,
It's because of the young kids we get through it. They need the best and proper us in order to feel like they are okay. I have 2 young D's, and Everytime I think I can't move on, they remind me that there are more important things to do.
I wish I could give some comfort. I find I am still holding on to the expectation that my H will come to his senses. It's hard to let that go of that and focus on the future without him.
I do not know how people with young children get through this. I have a lot of admiration for how you've been handling her irrational behavior. Not sure if I could've done it.
Thank you Nitty, it has not been easy and I have done/said things that I regret .. especially after reading here and the DB book ... but I can not undo the past, I can only focus on me, just wish I would have done it all sooner.
Nitty,
It's because of the young kids we get through it. They need the best and proper us in order to feel like they are okay. I have 2 young D's, and Everytime I think I can't move on, they remind me that there are more important things to do.
I agree , I hate to think where I would be without my S , was because of him I took the high road many times..slipped a few .. but I wanted him to have a good father, I have always been pretty good and involved, but now I am all about being a father, making sure his emotional needs are taken care of. W always comments to him "Why don't you hug/love me like that?" when she sees him hug me and run towards me .... It does keep me going, knowing regardless if we can save our family ... he knows I will do what I can for him and his happiness as well as guide him along the way.
Caliguy
Your S will truly be a guiding light for you and you can take solace in the fact that your relationship with him is fantastic. Good job!
After reading your thread, the thing that jumps out at me, probably because I'm guilty of it too, is assuming what she is doing with her time, and worrying a bit about the OM. I noticed you judging whether she saw him after mass and how that was inappropriate. Unfortunately, you need to not worry about that. We have no control over the OM and our WAW R.
I have the same concerns and fears with you re friend zone. Unfortunately I am currently in the A hole husband zone
Be consistent as you are doing, have really zero expectations, and keep GAL. Detachment is not going to be easy. Don't be too hard on yourself. You've been together 24 years, you can't switch that off immediately
Also, I noticed lots of focus on the mediation meeting and how things turned from that point. Was there anything else that happened at that point?
I'm sure your W is concerned about the finances, as you should be. I think you've handled yourself very well. It's a tightrope act, that required delicate balancing. That balance is much easier when you are balancing for you, not someone else.
Keep up your battle, and as you say....baby steps
Dev
Dev ... thanks for taking the time and reading and giving me input .. its a huge thing for me.
You are absolutely right about the OM ... I know I need to let go of that and have been working on it .. easier said than done.
The mediation thing .. she had set up the appt after a small fight we had ... that fight it seemed she was pushing for and it very well could have been a big fight but I did not take the bait. Up till that point we were really getting along much better, she was sharing her work days texting me and things were actually going well .. then BAMM .. that meeting and everyhing flipped.
Since we have been getting along, but it feels so non connected. It kills me though I dont show it and would NEVER talk about it as I know there is no good that comes from it.
SO today I get my phone activated after the swim it took, I let her know and ask if she was taking S today, she confirmed and offered to pick him up which I was happy for as I could run errands and work a bit later. She TM me around 5 asking if I was ok and telling me she made him cookies I thought .. hmmm ok .. strange her asking if I was ok .. I replied about an hour later (180 as I usually reply right away) that I was good, just leaving work and told her she always made great cookies, our S is a lucky boy. and left it at that. Later she tells me S's sty is back and asks if we can take him on Saturday (Again .. strange, she wants us both to go) ... I told her she had a hair appt she told me about and I have my IC ... but I would reschedule and take him so she could still get her hair done (180 for me to offer and take S giving her time). She told me no .. I figured I atleast offered and left it at that.
Now the kicker and its bugging me ... about an hour later she TM me
WAW "Whats the best way to describe me when I have PMS, Don't choke be honest"
I looked at that and was like .. hmmm
ME "Why?"
WAW "why do I ask? because I know I'm a pain in the ass but I also know that they shift quickly...you know it best and I'm trying to understand. So I know the trigger points"
So yeah .. her PMS tantrums are of legend .. I could never figure them out, now alot of times not to bad knowing what to look for helped me avoid the mines .. but the past few years she would go on really good ones.
Not really knowing what to say ... and in my head (I know I know .. mind reading and let the OM go) ... but I am thinking .. why ask... so you can warn OM and he can benefit from this info ... or is this something she is working on .. or maybe its her way of admitting it was a problem in our M ... I just have no idea with the fog and the rollercoaster of where this is headed.
Me"Its not easy to describe ... I guess over the years I just accepted the pattern and tried to realize is was part of who you are"
WAW "describe it while taking out the emotion"
Me" Like I said I dont think I can describe it, its not the same every time, its usually different month to month, sometimes you are really irritable, other times its the depression that sets in ...never could figure out what would set one off over the other"
I am not sure I handled it correctly .. or not .. just strange she would ask that, no reply as of yet but she has not read the last text either ... letting it go and going to take a walk and focus on not obsessing ... an issue I have fought with for far to long.
her PMS tantrums are of legend ..
but I am thinking .. why ask... so you can warn OM and he can benefit from this info ...
CaliGuy, I have to say this is the first thing that popped into my head. Yes, it's mindreading, so let it go. But even if it's for OM, that still means she recognizes it as a problem which could be applied to any R she's in, with OM or with you.
My WAW also had violent PMS. She was on AntiDepressants for it and went cold turkey before she abandoned us. (Me D16 and S8)
I can empathize how hurtful it is to have your W flip on you, go "crazy" based on the same behavior that you had the day before.
One thing that I noticed made my W worse was that if she was guilty, or hiding something that month the PMS was considerably worse. I am assuming your W had the same pattern. It may be worth communicating that one right there, the value of honesty = sanity.
She may be warning OM. She may not be.
I know that OW asked my H what his faults were early on. He turned to me and said, "She wants to know what my faults are. What would you say?"
Mind. Boggling.
Oh, the script of an MLCer. Ca-razy.
rppfl, Bigmac ... thank you for the replies.
CaliGuy, I have to say this is the first thing that popped into my head. Yes, it's mindreading, so let it go. But even if it's for OM, that still means she recognizes it as a problem which could be applied to any R she's in, with OM or with you.
rppfl Oh I know its mind reading, just impulse feelings I have to let go of, putting them out there and realizing what I am doing is a way to try and stop that behaivior in myself.
One thing that I noticed made my W worse was that if she was guilty, or hiding something that month the PMS was considerably worse. I am assuming your W had the same pattern. It may be worth communicating that one right there, the value of honesty = sanity.
Yes she does ... she revisited the text later that night and into this morning, she is on one of her episodes, and the guilt she has I think is eating her up, I suggested she see an IC, but I have learned a soft suggestion is as far as I can go, not pushing leading to the volcanic explosion is what has worked.
So as I mentioned .. she TM me later that night and I was not really comfortable talking about her PMS issues, was nice to know (like rppfl said) she is at the least aware of it and the impact it has on those around her ... she admitted this morning our S wants nothing to do with her and he is scared of her ... more the latter, he loves his mom but has told me he is scared of her at times .. if anything I would hope she could get help for him.
During our TM convo last night she said something to the effect "Its ok, I'm not your problem anymore... goodnight" ... that statement hurt a bit .. I almost sent no reply, but replied with "You were never a "problem" ... night". Then she went on to say she was good till the PMS, she picks a fight and then gets depressed and asked me how many years she has been doing that cycle. I confirmed, and told her its been some time and has increased in intensity over the last couple years ( This was with the added stress that I did not bring up,miscarraige in 2006 seem to start it off.. my father passing2012, her brother in prison2013, her mother left her father for a year2013 - and the family drama she considers normal, and her work-3 different jobs in 4 years that she has not been happy with since she was laid off-off for over a year- and we lost the house in 2009)
So I tried to dodge all this.. makes her feel like its her fault and I have never felt that way, just unfortunate circumstances and validate, telling her I understand she is having a hard time and asked how I could help ... obviously times like this she does reach out to me, part of me would like to 180 here and make her see what its like without me, but I just can not be cruel, right or wrong I feel that does not add into the love bucket and would be cruel ... so I feel this is my chance to put in positives, she replied that "you walk away every morning I see it, your guard is up, I know its ok I've hurt everyone" I jus ttold her it was not that I am walking away, I am just working on me ... she said "good for you, Goodnight" then went on to say "Its ok, I need to learn to be alone, I have S here in bed with me" .... I did not want to touch the alone part, just told her to watch out for S's right hook and left it at that.
She TM this morning still emotional and depressed, I asked her if she would let me help her, get her at least an IC .... told her its helping me (figured share a little vulnerability maybe she would atleast think about it) Told her between IC and reading its helped me. She then asked what I was reading ... I was not going to tell her DB ... lol .. I told her books my therapist suggests, and I read the bible everyday (180s here for me that I have stuck to) .... then she replied "You don't have to boast, I know you are on the right path and I'm not" ... guilt talk here, I just replied .. I was not boasting just telling you what I read, then I sent her a pic of our dog changing the topic and tone feeling the fight brewing ... Thanks to MWD for that in the DB book about changing our pattern in a fight ... see I am reading and applying
For the most part, I am just holding onto the positives here, I was starting to be a little frustrated, I know we are not to have any expectations, but in a way .. I expect to save this marriage, I realize its a long process, but you do kind of need little flashes of hope that things are improving and getting better. This exchange does make me feel that in a way she does need me, when she is at her dark stages, and if I can plant some seeds ... maybe when the sun comes out they will grow and take root. I resisted every chance to tell her .. the guilt is eating at her, stop doing what you are doing ... but the statement of her needing to get used to being alone, I actually agree with, no OM, no me even .. she needs to get right, get out of the fog, and then maybe she will want the strength of our family to lean on as she continues her battle with the demons.
So update
so today I was reading the DB book, read a few threads and came out of it with a new perspective. I have basically been allowing WAW to have her A .. not bring it up .. and jsut be the #2 optn and she knows it.
So today I did a GAL 180, she TM that she would be working a little late, its her night with S ... I told her that was fine, so when she showed up 30 minutes later I was dressed and leaving at the same time. She wanted to talk so I asked her what was up ... she asked why I am treating her differently (the detaching thing I assume) I told her I did not feel I was treating her differently .... then she asked if we could be friends and I took a deep breathe .. paused and she started reacting ... I asked for a moment and told her I could not be friends ... she made a choice to have the A, and as long as she intended to do that I felt it was disrespectful to me, out marriage, our family, our son, and her family ... I then said I need to go as I made plans (Just going to a friends for a redbox movie)
WOW did this set her off .. TM she told me to go sleep around, brought up old garbage, and went into her usual rants ... I validated, told her I have already apologized for my part in this M, and have made some changes in my life and it was at this point all I could humanly do ... and left it at that
I hope this was a correct way to handle it ... putting on the spew jacket
She may be warning OM. She may not be.
I know that OW asked my H what his faults were early on. He turned to me and said, "She wants to know what my faults are. What would you say?"
Mind. Boggling.
Oh, the script of an MLCer. Ca-razy.
Sorry MLP, I missed your comment .... and yeah ... this MLC WAW script is mind boggling, I thought I was just dealing with my own unique crazy, reading here ( I have read so much) made me realize its not just me .. which is comforting .. but more importantly is there is actually a way to try to get through this and somehow be better for it .. regardless if the M stays intact
So yesterday, I was reading the DB, and read Devs sitch .. all 4 volumes ... reading some advice he had as his sitch has some similarities of mine. I sat and thought about it ... I've allowed her to cake eat. Her and the OM have been on again and off again ... I could start predicting where they were by her actions towards me. Like many .. sure I want my M and family back, sure I love her ... but I do not want to be choice #2, I chose to take this gift of time and be a better version of me .. someone a fool would leave ... so I sat and thought .. since Nov what have I done (Alot of these I did before reading DB)
I have:
Found God
Attend church on a consistent basis
Joined a softball team
Rejoined my football team
Lost 20lbs
Got a much better job, one I am happy at
Promoted, and a raise (may have another raise in a month)
Made it a point to dress better
Regained confidence
Planned outings on the weekend with my son
Took an all weekend motorcycle riding course (Bucket list item)
Got control of my temper
Realized my mistakes in the marriage, how I could have done things differently
Become WAY more social
I have other things I am working on but decided to reflect and realize I am not the person she left.
She TM me her spew yesterday (me dressed up and appearing to go out rattled her badly ... not my intention but it did feel nice to have that mysterious vibe going .. even if it was just a redbox movie)She was bringing up past issues -typical for her justifying to herself her A and then brought up that I called her disrespectful earlier.... I clarified what I said via TM so atleast she could read it and not rewrite that conversation as she has our history..I told her how I felt it was disrespectful to me, our marriage, our son, family for her to have an A and try to be my friend. She went on to give me the business some but I watched the movie instead of replying.
So early this morning she TM me, telling me that I don't have to worry about her being with anyone anymore ... I misread the TM ... was early and I was not quite awake and she does do the suicidal talks ... especially when she is PMSing like this. So I asked if she wanted to talk ... she called. She tells me its over .. he broke up with her ... I stopped her and told her I was not going to discuss him, she hung up on me. Through TM she is upset I am not there for her, she needs support, I always walk away(<-this one is a biggie for her... I walk away when I realize a fight is going no where and it makes her furious) ... I calmly validated her feelings, told her I know she is hurting, I understand the pain she must feel. ...(however to call your husband after your OM dumps you ... even in a fog you must see that's wrong...then again .. WAW Coo Coo Lingo 101 tells me its not al that uncommon)
So I get S ready and drop him off ... not knowing what to expect ... times like this .. (has happened twice now) I was guilty of scaring the squirrel... thinking ok OM is gone this is my chance ... Thankfully I have learned ... she told me that she is alone, scared of being alone, does not like who she is, hates that our S is all happy with me but once with her he withdraws, just basically giving me the self pity party. I calmly told her she is a good person, however I think she actually needs to be alone, take the time she now will find herself with and figure out what she truly wants out of life, what makes her happy without anyone whispering in her ear luring her to what they want... and that means me too. She was crying telling me she could not get through this alone, I told her she did not have to, I removed my necklace and placed it in her hands (Its a cross) I told her now might be a good time to start new. She was more religious than I but is angry with God over all her issues and really pulled away when her brother was convicted.
She told me she needs to stop blaming, she wants to learn to be happy with herself, she wants to trust again, she wants to trust God, me, but does not know how. I told her trust is hard .. you do have to have a little faith and atleast give Him a chance ... you have to take the first step and start building.
She took a few steps back and told me I have changed, she asked how ... I told her alot of reflection, reading, and refusing to do things that made me miserable. I told her small changes can effect your day so much. Explained the Butterfly Effect that I read in DB (I did not tell her about the DB book though she asked and was VERY interested in reading more). She finally agreed to get some IC ... this conversation was worth that if nothing else stuck ... she does need IC badly. Baby steps
So I left, no expectations for once, she needs to go on this journey alone still and I need to let her figure things out while continuing myself.(I realize she will have a withdraw period .. provided it is actually over between her and OM) Sure I have hopes that this is the beginning of a chance at a new marriage .. I know there is more work than I want to admit that would need to be done. Who knows if OM is truly out ... and it has not really mattered to me... she told me I should be happy he is gone and I calmly replied that it really had no effect on me (180 here ... and one that took her offguard). It was actually true for the first time since I found out about the A ... reinforcing that I have made progress detaching.
I would appreciate thoughts/advice ... as of now I am going to stay the course, keep reading ... learning ... DB experimenting if you will. I know she will make a huge play to spend family time, its where she regains her strength ... not sure if providing that is good at this point or not.
Finished the DB book last night. WAW asked if we were still on for dinner at her place, she was running late and would not be home till 7 "Its up to you" ... SO I explained by the time we ate I would have to get S ready for bed it would be to late and declined. She TM me a little but I was with S and not really in the mood to talk.... knowing OM is out of the picture and now she wants to talk irritates a bit .. I know it does not help my cause but still stings.
So this morning I drop off S and she asks me to come in, I was wanting to detach and just go to work but I came in .. she gives me a hug and asked if I slept and I told her I didn't, she asked why and I told her I have alot going on and really did not want to share, this set her off and she started her spew a bit .. rather than just letting her spew I made the mistake .. backslide a bit .. told her she was the one that pulled away, now that its over with OM she should not expect me to open up right away and I wish she appreciated that ... she went off a bit more, blaming me for her being mentally screwed up ... (MLC script here .. .) I told her the sooner she started taking responsibility for what she has done and stops blaming me for her [censored] up life the faster she will get over it. (Mistake ... but its what I said) ... this upset her and she started crying .. I stayed long enough to calm her down ... told her she has pushed me away for the past 9 months and even before that, she said something that she needs me and our S and I told her she needs to show it ... actions not words (DB believe none of what she says and only 50% of what she does), I know this sets back some of the progress I made, she had made a remark that her life was fine before she met me ... 24 years ago ... I was like WTF>? hell I don't recall either of us having our [censored] together that long ago .. but in her head I can not imagine how twisted it all mus be.
So back to dark .... I received a large raise today, one that I will not tell her about .. she was worried she would have to pay child/spousal support ... and with this increase it may just be even enough that she pulls the trigger ... hard to say. But the raise was a huge boost, I was actually in a great mood .. and I sit her looking forward to the changes I can make and have made ... regardless if she is in my life I know I am going to be ok... I have God to thank for that.
Wow, what a turnaround! I hope she reclaims her faith, that might help her. That was a touching moment, you hanging the cross on her neck.
At this time I would be full of hope and expectations, and then devastated when she pulls away again, because that seems like the cycle, right? Dance forward, dance back, come in for a closeup, and then pull back. Throw out hope, and then run away.
This should be a cautious time, I think. I am rooting for you to stay as detached as possible. And congrats on the raise!
From your posts, I know that you are trying to use the methods from Divorce Busting, in addition to the advice from others. However, once again I am suggesting that you speak to a Divorce Busting Coach to help you make sense of your most recent encounter. Please call me to discuss our Coaching program.
303-444-7004.
CaliGuy- so many encouraging signs. You have had to really be patient to get this far. Sending good vibes for continued progress.