Onto another square - DivorceBusting.com

Originally Posted By: Sparky

Going dark is the chance to work on you and to allow the spouse that left you to go through the journey they need to go through. If you start butting into that when they have made it clear that they don't want to be with you, then you come off as someone who is not honoring their request. You are short-circuiting the journey they have to go through to work out what is going on inside themselves.

There was obviously something very wrong that made them decide they wanted out in the first place. Oftentimes, it is probably the case that they are depressed and they have lost faith that anything can ever change. That patterns are set and are not reversible. It's a sign of depression to feel this kind of hopelessness.

One thing they knew for sure was that they did not want you in the picture. When people are depressed and confused about their identity like many people who request separations are, they become cognitively disorganized and impulsive in their choices. And when you are coming at them trying to make them stay with you, it just feels bad and like there's a pressure there to stay where they were.

And they don't want to stay where they were. They are wanting big changes. And if you stay the same as you always have been, and are unwilling to allow them to go on the journey that they need, or you are setting agendas about how they need to be, you just look like a controlling wench or [censored]. You become a representation of what they were trying to get away from.

As long as you keep pressuring them, you don't stand a chance. You will remain the embodiment of those bad feelings they are having. You will be something to avoid. You will make it very easy for them to continue to project or blame you for the bad feelings that reside inside of them.

If they are alone with those bad feelings still lingering inside, and you are nowhere in the vicinity, then perhaps they will begin to see that the pain they were feeling was really about something unhealed inside of them rather than something about you. You need to cut that link between bad feelings and you.

If you want there to ever be a future between you and your spouse, I believe you have to let your spouse take the journey that is rightfully theirs, even if they way they are communicating that to you [censored]. Even if it hurts like nothing else you've ever felt. If you love them, you have to let them go through that.

And you can't keep looking over to see if they are done yet. It's suffocating. Instead, this is your chance to learn new things. Walk around in your feelings and see what is unhealed in you that makes it so easy for you to feel crazy about this crappy situation in which you find yourself.

You have the gift of time now, and the focusing energy of pain. Don't feel all of this pain without getting your money's worth. Surrender to what is really happening. Face it head on. Summer in the MLC area says that you should stay dark UNLESS your spouse initiates a contact.

For me, there have been two main contacts. First, he called me several weeks ago, and we ended up talking for over an hour. Then, he told me that he wanted to meet with me to tell me some "news." At first, I did not meet with him, because I was not ready to feel more pain. I knew the news wasn't going to be good. But last week, I finally decided to recontact him and tell him that I was ready to meet to hear his news.

His news was that he was seeing the woman I had at first feared he was seeing. But I met when I was good and ready, and it was actually a really productive and authentic contact. I was ready to be calm and not plead and hear his news. And I think that even though he is with another woman, this contact was a good one, even though it was about painful stuff.

When I allow my husband to be the initiator, then he has to know that he wanted to see me. And from being dark, I, Sparky, have actually become a bit mysterious to my husband - which is hilarious, becase I'm the least mysterious person you will ever meet. And he was intrigued. And I liked it. And I'm going to keep doing this because I thing that not only is it "working," but I'm using all this time to grow as I never thought I would.

The worst thing that ever happened to me has been the best thing that ever happened to me. And even though I still feel a lot of pain, I mean that sincerely.

Here is the link to my first thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...983#Post2462983

I found this post which I found helpful and hope that other newcomers will find helpful as well. Going on two months of DBing now and yes, it has gotten easier. The shock is starting to wear off but the pain--ever so real and inescapable--persists. I'm in a better place now than I was two months ago.

Currently in San Diego and going on week 4. I've decided to extend my trip another two weeks. No, my H did not take the news well. The space I've created between us has been the best decision I've made thus far. I had no idea what to expect being this far away. Well...actually, I expected the worst. I'm glad I left though because I truly needed some space to think things through. Not being around him helped with the pulling back.

I was struggling with defining which behaviors lead to my cheeseless tunnels and which behaviors needed a 180. It turns out that being away has helped me "go dark" so to speak. This was completely unplanned and a happy accident at the same time. By being away, I learned to focus on my feelings and really feel through them. Each day I would reflect on the things he told me that was wrong in the M. It required an immense amount of humility and prayer to step outside myself and into his shoes but I did it. I discovered there were and still are many things that I need to change about myself. I'm focusing on these changes and little by little I'm gaining back my confidence and I'm not so reliant on my H reactions.

GAL has been a catalyst for going dark. If I didn't get out and do something then my mind would fixate on the pain. Of course being in a beautiful city with almost always perfect weather made the transition easier. At first, it sucked doing things without him but I pushed myself anyway. Slowly, my mind would shift from him to what I was doing and I was okay again. The more I did this, the easier it became to do more of it. Before I knew it, I was having a life. A real one. One without my H. It took the focus off my failing M and my H undesirable/unpleasant demeanor and onto taking care of myself.

We still have a joint account. So he gets to see all of my expenses while I'm here. I've gotten a couple of phone calls reprimanding me about my expenses. Mind you, this is the money he left for me as part of easing his own guilty conscience for taking 75% of what was in our joint and his direct deposit onto his newly opened account. No matter how unfair it felt to me at that time I did not lose my cool but reassured him until he calmed down. Then, I pulled back some more.

The more I pulled back the more he initiated contact. Even when it's just to yell at me about something as small as not answering my phone right away. Finally, the man who has been so cold and distant was starting to show some softness. Yeah, his yelling was not the response I would have liked but it did reveal a lot more about his current state of mind than maybe he wanted to. He let his guard down, gave in to his emotion and I got to witness it. It felt good to feel a little bit in control of things again without having to exert any pressure on him. I gave him enough rope to hang himself. How about that?

He became curious and friendly but unsettled. He began to probe...asking what was going on and why he feels like there's something I'm withholding from him. His insecurity was very transparent. Finally, I said in a calm tone that I was needing more time away to see if I can find a job here and a place to live. This confirmed his suspicion and his tone got softer and solemn as if I had just given him the worst news of his life.

I'm not sure if by doing that I had verbally dropped the rope. We continued to talk and it lasted a good 35 minutes. We finally discussed how to broach the topic with the children once they return from summer vacation. I told him that I would be there as a support for my kids. He got upset and voiced that he did not arrive at this place on his own. I wanted to argue back but didn't. He was telling the truth about that part but he still refuses to see that I was explicit about salvaging the M. And yes, it took him calling my divorce bluff for me to see that things needed changing.

We're still on differing opinions about how we got to where we are in the M and he still refuses to accept that I want to stay and work on our M. A couple of questions...

1.) I know not to bring up R talks unless he initiates but when he does it's not productive. He's still doing the finger-pointing and not really accepting his part in the problem. How do I handle this? I was thinking of saying "I will be glad to discuss this with you in a neutral environment where we can both feel safe and open to share our thoughts and feelings. But, it will not happen outside of the counseling office."

2.) When he starts to ask questions about what my plans are (moving on, S, and D) how much info is good enough and how much is too much? Is honesty the best policy while being dark?

3.) Can/should I maintain a cool interest while in the dark period?

I found this post on another DBer's thread about WAW and friend-zoning their LBH. Most of what she says is really giving men a peek into a woman's mind and she's spot on. W want/need to respect their H as a leader in the home. If she demotes him then she has lost respect for him. Why would a H settle for anything less than what he already has a right to...by her choosing to marry him in the first place?

Anyway here's the the post.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Quote:

quick question though on the indeffrence.... ive never turned down her request to talk, should I shut it down, no more talking with her unless its about the kids...not be there for her emotionally until things change?

It depends on where you are on this journey. And also, everyone's stitch may vary just a bit. For example, if the couple are still living together, and the W starts talking at the dinner table or whenever the family are gathered together, I would be careful about cutting her off (as long as she's not being disrespectful and the subject matter is not about the R or inappropriate for the kids). This time with the children should be pleasant and gives you an opportunity to shine.

If living together, or not, and she begins whining, playing the victim, being disrespectful, b*tchy, demanding, bossy, etc., then you shut her down right then and there. If you don't know how to shut her down.......then you immediately leave her presence. But you do not tolerate her giving you a cr@p bath.

If not living together, and she calls to just talk about herself, or try's to manipulate you into doing something for her, end the conversation. (If it becomes a habit with her, You could even give a slight hint of sounding bored at her self centerness. ). After all, she gave you up, remember. You don't owe her. The only thing you have to discuss is about the kids, and if need be....you direct the conversation back to the subject of your children.

If she initiates the conversation, and as long as she is speaking politely and softly, and being civil, I think you should listen. (As long as it doesn't get to be all about her life and her problems too much, or not getting nosy about yours). If you see it is about to take a wrong turn and her emotions are getting ugly or it gets on the R, then change the subject or use the nosy neighbor method. If she makes a "request" to talk, be cautious. It usually means a R talk, or something serious. Just be on your toes till you can see what it's about. Use common sense with this.

It teaches her how she can talk to you and what you will not not tolerate. If she starts asking questions about you (especially if you are separated or she's brought up D)....she learns she is trespassing into your private territory. She doesn't get the answers she was after. It frustrates her how you can just smile, or give your little low chuckle and say goodbye or turn and leave her hanging.

She learns she gets no place with horsey behavior. She has to act like a lady before you give her the time of day. She can't dictate or boss you around. She can't even complain about you, b/c you don't linger around to listen to it. If she gets mad and throws a fit, she has to do it privately b/c you won't be her audience. She also learned she has to live with the circumstances of her choices and not go crying to you (of all people) and expect sympathy. Which really surprises her.

Yes, she gets frustrated, but what really gets her is how you just keep standing tall, and in control. She can't seem to ruffle your feathers regardless of her behavior, even when she starts spewing,, you call her out about how unattractive that behavior makes her look and then you leave her standing alone.

When she gets to the point she can talk nicely, respectfully, and politely, you seem patient and not in a hurry to end the conversation. Heck, you even validate some thongs she says! So, when she starts thinking of a possible reconciliation, she will approach you in the right manner/attitude. Funny how all this has changed her outlook of you as a man. She had doubted your strength. She wasn't attracted to you. She sure didn't respect you b/c she used to be able to speak anyway she wanted and you just took it like a beaten down dog. But no longer! And now she finds herself beginning to not only see you differently, but her own feelings seem to be changing.

Now this is all from the woman's POV, of course. Women have always used their mouth as a weapon. They expect men to be stronger. That's why they lose respect for the man they can beat down by the words they speak.

Does this answer your question?

Is there a male version of Sandi out there to chime in for the other team...seriously? What about when a WAH wants to friend zone their W. Does this quote apply? I mean there's definitely a difference in thought processes, right? Or, am I incorrect in this?

Can anyone bring Sandi in? I'd rather not hijack Oad's thread anymore than it already has.

Okay, so we finally submitted all the documents needed for final loan approval. I forwarded him my documents so that he could attach his and send it all at once. I was hoping that before he sent the docs to the lender that he would CC me on it thus showing that he has nothing to hide but he didn't. No surprise there.

I think I may have blown it the other day when he asked why we couldn't talk about my plans. It confused me at first because we haven't set any boundaries. We went to counseling so he could vent and let his decision (it's not working out, he doesn't feel the same way for me, he no longer wants to be married...etc.) be officially known to the C. Then I packed my bags and left for my trip the next day. We haven't talked about the S papers or me signing them or D until the other day.

I told him I had an appt. and would be available to three way call to the insurance company for a homeowner's quote after my appt. He asked what the appt. was for but didn't respond to his text. Later that day he asked what the appt was for again so I told him that I just had to take care of something. The following day he called frustrated (probably from things piling up at work) and flat out said "I feel like there's something you're not telling me." and it's something big and I'm gonna be hit on the head with it with no warning." So I admitted that I was looking for a job here and possibly a place to live.

I can't remember how we got to the topic of D but we did. As I began to share a little bit of my tentative plans I realize I was discussing the future but without him in it and I was using phrases like "once the D is final this is what I will have to..." He remained quite but attentive and acquiescent. Even though the topics were not the ones I wanted to talk about, it felt good to get it out in the open. Perhaps this was my "opening the cage door" attempt and it worked...I hope. My DB coach says to show him a cooperative, non-controlling, compromising CMF. Since he's been on my back about signing the S papers, I opted for this route until I can speak w/a attorney about the S papers.

Oh...I got sidetracked. This is where I think I may have pushed him away. After I shared my plans he asked why we couldn't talk just talk about it. I wanted to scream "because you're not sharing anything about you and your plans j@ck@ss! So, why should I let you in on mine?!" They were just thoughts and that's where they stayed. The best thing I could muster was "I'm doing my best to honor your space and privacy and was hoping there would be reciprocity in that." He said "Oh, alright" in a "I guess, whatever attitude."

Yesterday he texted me to let me know that our dog is back safely in the shelter. I said "thank you" and he replied with "you're welcome." And then I tested the waters with the close-ended text "was work okay today?" to see if he would respond and maybe expound. He answered with "same as it has been."

Now that we have no excuse to remain on joint accounts, I've been thinking about moving my money into my individual account but I'm uncertain on how to best approach this. Should I just move it without telling him or should I give him a heads up before doing so? Before he opened up his own acct and transferred money in there and redirected his paycheck he did tell me that's what he was going to do. I don't plan to remove my name from the joint quite yet since there are still outstanding charges that need to clear. However, I would like to be able to spend my money without him monitoring me.

What's would be the best way to communicate this? I feel by calling him I'd be pestering him. We've communicated just about every other day this week on the phone. If I text then it may set him off and initiate a phone confrontation from him. By emailing, he may glance over it and not look at it again. He hasn't responded to any of the emails I've sent personal or business. He claims that things have been so busy at work that by the time he gets home he doesn't have the energy to siphon through his emails.

Thoughts anyone?

Maybe an FYI email: FYI, I will be moving the money from the joint account into my individual account soon. I'll make sure to leave enough to cover the pending transactions, then I'll move the balance after they've cleared. I appreciate that we can communicate about these steps so no one is caught off guard.

I mean, he knows this is happening, so just do it. He may be upset but if he is that's good for two reasons. One, it means he is still emotionally engaged. And two, it gives you a chance to showcase your ability to validate and respond in a confident, detached, calm, sensitive, and compassionate tone despite his reaction.

Keep it going. Don't pursue but don't slam the door shut either!

Thanks Zues! I appreciate your response and insight. It's amazing how much clearer my head is after receiving insight from others on here.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

I appreciate that we can communicate about these steps so no one is caught off guard.

Great validating statement! I had not thought of it.

One of my biggest pitfalls is validating and empathizing. I can get so caught up in doing what I have my mind set to that I don't consider how he may feel/respond to it. So one-tracked mind...it's a bad habit but I'm training.

Hope that you're sitch is going well or at least that you are doing well. Detaching without trying to slam the door is tricky but we can do it! Thanks to the help from our fellow DBers.

Yeah I have moved out of square one alright and it's some scary stuff!

It's looking like some big changes coming up in August. We're closing on the new house, my 14 year old has decided to live with his biological father, and I'm considering on staying in CA.

I was wondering what the opinion is on making major life changing decisions. I think I read somewhere and (I don't know which book because I've read so much in the past two months) not to make any major decisions right now. However, from what I understand my actions are what H will be paying attention to and not my words so...

I fly back to VA the second week of August. I have a three week window to get my son packed and off to his dad in NH before school starts. And then, I can take my daughter and drive across the country back to CA. We can stay with family until I find a job and my own place to stay. My motivation for moving back? Well, it would be a move back to my home state and be closer to my bro. I won't mention all the small stuff because they're just the icing on the cake.

My only reason for staying in VA is so that my son can finish off high school in one school. I would stay just so he can continue on to high school with the rest of his friends. I wanted to afford him the opportunity to stay in one school instead of jumping from school to school (like I did due to the military) but he seems excited to be with his other family. So, I want to give him that chance.

Should I stay in VA and hold out for reconciliation or is there a possibility for reconciliation after I move away? It seems like the answer is right under my nose but I'm having a hard time with this one. Would this be perceived as running away or perhaps closing the door shut? I've shared with H my plans to find a job here and a place to stay. He has not expressed any opposing thoughts. As a matter of fact he makes it a point to ask each time we talk how the job search is going.

Is this something I should share with him to see what his opinions are? I mean it would be a 180--I think. He told me once that I just go out and do whatever I want and not consider him or his feelings. I'm not sure if now would be a good time to apply this. It feels as if I'd be asking for reassurance somehow and I know that's a no-no. Prior to leaving I was thinking of handing him the S papers signed. This is another 180 that my DB coach had suggested. Again, it feels as though I'd be adding another nail to the coffin.

I'd appreciate any insights from the vets.

Okay, this is going to take forever to read through. I want you to understand why I said what I did about knowing the truth. It's not about catching him in an A, but to know if he is still lying to you. Has he been lying throughout the M? Has he continued in some sort of A's all this time?

Listen, I have very personal, up-close and life long experiences with chronic liars and physiological liars. I'm talking about living with each type and experiencing the pain their lies inflict. If he is either one, you need to know what you have on your hands. If he is a serial cheater, you still need to know. B/c honestly, I would tell anyone to get as far away from it as possible. I won't say they can't change, but they don't want to b/c it works for them. I have not seen it happen in the ones I know personally.

So I see you are getting the advice about not snooping, etc. Usually, I agree. But this is finding out who and what kind of man you have married! At this point (and I have not read all your threads yet) I just feel it is more involved than a resent or present affair. It's about knowing what is truth.

Truthfully, I have no idea who he is right now and I have been questioning all the other times I suspected something but decided not to act on it.

If he is having an A and has been throughout the M then he's a darn good liar. I tried to move on from the first lie about the girl he never disclosed. I thought it was odd that he chose to never talk about her...at all. And then there's the credit card thing. Oh and one time I saw a couple of hangers in the closet I didn't recognize and confronted him. I cant' remember his response but the issue was diffused. I didn't really want to get into a big blow out over stupid clothe hangers. I sure had moments when I started second guessing my own memory.

Things did get better after a while but I still had a hard time trusting him. Yeah, I'm sure my previous bad experiences didn't help with the trust thing. But, I let it go. I would mention the issue every now and again until eventually I stopped talking about it.

He did change his phone number and left his phone out in the open. His time away from home was accounted for. But, whose to say that there isn't a friend at work? He brought us to the office once for family day. I got to see his desk and pictures were there. He invited me to one of their quarterly lunch outings. It seemed harmless. My intuition tells me he's still withholding info but there's nothing I can do about that. I chose to stop snooping because it did drive me crazy. Do I want to find out if he's been lying the whole time? I do. But then a part of me is thinking "to what extent" and if I did confirm it and he decided to turn things around whose to say he won't revert back to his old self. Then what?

I'm not totally discrediting his character. He's a good guy. At least, part of what he shows me tells me he wants to be a good guy. I mean there were a lot of moments that were sincere. That's when our communication was good and so was the physical part. We spent a lot of time driving 4 hours to see his family. He became really involved with my children and things were smooth.

Come to think of it the only time we argued was when I was feeling insecure and suspicious. Our biggest issue, IMO, has been his reluctance or apprehension about starting a family together. I would bring up the topic and we agreed that we both wanted to have kids together. But then nothing would happen after that. So I'd bring it up again and of course again...we were in a holding pattern. I have a health issue that could only worsen with pregnancy. My doctor said it was not impossible but that sooner would be better. He knew this and was there at my appt. with me. Still, he didn't budge.

Finally, I grew tired of being put off. There was something crucial he wasn't telling me. At this point I was thinking about leaving but I resorted to seeing a MC. I did several sessions by myself and H eventually joined me. We went for about 6 weeks and things were getting better. So, i thought. Then we started to looking into a house. Planning for another child meant more space so I took this as his effort to show me that he was in on the baby thing. I was happy. We found a house. Signed a contract. Picked out our upgrades. Worked hard with the lenders to get the financing thing rolling. We got approved. Throughout all this I sensed something wasn't settling right with him. I would ask from time to time how he felt about it but he never shared how he felt. Only what he thought. So I took it as me being insecure again and didn't question it any further. I thought he was just anxious about how to deal with all the finances that come along with it.

Still, I grew increasingly worried to a point where I said "we don't have to go through with this. I'd rather stay in this school district for the kids instead of be happy in a beautiful house while my kids are miserable in their new school" and "I'll just have to get over it." He said okay. But then we found out getting out of the contract was gonna cost us. He left for his business trip and that's when he dropped the bomb on me. And here I am trying to figure out WTH?

Now that he knows I'm on to him; how do I catch him in a lie? Wouldn't this only justify his wanting out if I get caught or confront him with the evidence?

I did not see where you had started this thread before I posted several long posts on the last one. Hope you will look back on your previous thread.

They are excellent liars! And a phschologial liar gets where he believes his own lies. A chronic/habitual liar knows they are lying, but it won't stop doing it. It is so maddening!!

Just find out who this guy really is. And, please.....don't take his word for it. Don't even let him know you are checking it out, b/c he will try to destroy evidence.

I read your posts on my previous thread, thank you! They're unanimous in their message..."find out if he's still lying." Oh, I know he's still lying. I have no proof right now since I'm thousands of miles away but there's that gut feeling that just won't go away.

Right now he's being super friendly. I'm in the friend zone and I hope I'm responding the right way. He's being cooperative and suggesting that we do another three-way call to the bank to separate our stuff. I told him that was something he could do himself and that I didn't need to be in on it but he insisted. He said "I know, but you've had more experienced with them and I would appreciate your help." This sounds almost too good to b e true. It feels manipulative somehow because now I'm not resisting and have clued him in on my plans.

I know after the convo with the bank that he will want to pry a little bit more. How should I respond?

I'm having a difficult time today and need a little encouragement.

I'm starting to believe that my H is a pathological liar. It would make a lot of sense especially his haste to get out of the contract for the new build and then just turn two-faced on me.

I snooped today and logged into our home security system account online. Under the history tab shows the date and times the door was opened, closed, and when the alarm was armed or disarmed. It made me sick to my stomach as I got to see his daily traffic behavior since I've been gone. One thing that stood out was a repetition of an event almost every night. The door would open and close and then the alarm would be set to armed. Then a few hours later the system would disarm and the door opened and then closed. Then it would set to no motion meaning no one is in the house. About 15-20 minutes later the door would open and close and then set to armed for the remainder of the night.

I know there can be many different explanations for this but would it be really bad to just say he has someone visiting the house on a nightly basis? I feel tempted to call my neighbor and ask if they've seen anything suspicious. The kids and I have been gone for almost a month. Someone has got to be asking questions.

I feel like maybe I've been lied to throughout our entire relationship. That our relationship started out as a lie because he was still with the undisclosed girl. And as he was growing attached to me he was leaving the other. I found evidence that he was still in contact with her while he and I were just dating. I started to snoop after I discovered the text message she sent him. I confronted him about the ticket stub that showed he was at a show with her one evening...it had her name on it! He said he was just being a friend because her parents fell ill to something and just showing support. So I let it go because we were engaged and I thought that meant something so why bother with the past. He was committed to me now. I know this is a very dark road I'm on but I'm willing to travel down it to find the truth. I don't want to be married to someone who can't /won't be honest with me. Being lied to is...a whole different animal.

Now, I'm afraid to go home. I don't want to have to look him in the face as he continues to lie to me. I feel disgusted knowing that I loved this man, pledge my life to him, and yet I'm not really sure who he is.

I normally don't advise this, but if you could hire someone to do investigate, it could save a lot of future heartbreak. I mean, he could have another wife somewhere, for all you know! Not trying to give you more to worry about, but just saying, we hear about this happening to others b/c the liars are so convincing! They leave on "business" and go to the OW. The wives are never the wiser. (Of course, that's just a scenario.)

Maybe his past is not that important to you, but if there's something that affects the present situation, or could put you in a dangerous position, you need to know....and protect yourself legally, financially, etc.

I'm truly not trying to plant things in your mind. It may come across as sounding as if I am. I'm very concerned for you and I don't think you have the usual stitch that comes here to the DB board. That's why I am saying that in your case, I think you need to find the truth about who you M.

Thanks for you concern Sandi. I appreciate your candidness regardless of how it's coming across. I don't think you're planting things in my mind. As a matter of fact I feel somewhat relieved that someone has validated a nagging concern of mine. I wasn't sure if I had enough ground to pursue it. Most people just don't plan for this kind of stuff.

What's ironic is that this happened to a close family member. She didn't know her H had a completely different set of family and life until 15 years after they were married. They're divorced now but I would bring this stuff up to my H each time I felt insecure. I can't recall if he ever said anything to reassure me that I had nothing to worry about.

On the other hand I feel like I've just fallen back a thousand steps. Correct me if I'm wrong, vets but are my DBing efforts now in vain? I don't recall a remedy for this kind of stitch. I'm so lost...

I texted him today to see if we could set up a time to plan when we will finish splitting our stuff. I said "when you get a chance today I'd like to discuss how we can proceed with accomplishing the items we discussed last week." He called me back shortly after I sent the text. He claims that it would be his only opportunity to talk today. So I told him that it did not need to happen today but we can agree on a date that will work with both our schedules. He suggested tomorrow evening but I told him that I have plans to go out. His response was "oh, with your brother?" I said "oh no just with my friends." Then I said that maybe Saturday would be best if he didn't have plans. He agreed.

The convo took a surprisingly positive turn. We discussed some stuff about the kids and my son living with his dad. H says he'd like to talk with my son's dad so he can exchange info and his experience. It was a perfect opportunity to validate and so I took it. We ended on a lighter note today and for now it's enough.

One "bone" to pick with you is b/c I posted a lot to you on some other thread, and now, here I am and I cannot find it. How many threads do you have?

People, You really must stick to ONE thread....there, I'm done with my bone picking...

Originally Posted By: Paz2014

I had another coaching session with Chuck today and it was well overdue. I postponed it for three weeks out of hopelessness and impatience. In those three weeks a lot of negative thought patterns returned and sought refuge in my head.

I choose to act "as if" until I find out otherwise. Yeah, there's overwhelming evidence but there's also just as much stuff to counteract them.

I support your DB coach's advice (and would not openly disagree anyhow, but I really do agree with Chuck) about dropping the "pathological liar" stance.

Mainly b/c of the reasons you listed, BUT ALSO b/c I don't see you at risk for something MORE than you already are.

Meaning, it's not as if you are now deciding IF you should have a baby together ...and you ARE going to see a lawyer at some point, right?

So, what is the added risk right NOW, if you act as if? I see no added risk.

As for moving out west, imo, there are reasons for it --family is a big one--- but one of those reasons is NOT fighting For your m. B/C moving away will not help you there.

It still may be the right thing to do, but yes, I see it as a big "moving on step"...away.

And btw, unemployment here in most of California, is higher than in VA.... And if you are in northern VA, unemployment there is among the lowest in the nation (b/c I guess the feds in Washington DC are always hiring someone,). Food for thought.

I also believe his questions about your work prospects are at least partly fueled by his financial concerns with or without a divorce.

Those are legitimate concerns I think, either way it goes (together or not) b/c HE is affected, right?

This is tough because we're nearing our closing date and I'll be back home in just 5 short days. I haven't seen the house since they started on the construction and I'm almost certain it's complete. Oh my double wall oven that I may never get to use.

Trust me, There will be other double wall ovens in other houses...and it's a THING, not a R...

Plus, I have one ( it came with the house.) It was VERY pricey and very unreliable!! and so darn expensive to fix ---every time something beeps on it...So you see? you are saving yourself stress!

Truly it's a "Dacor" double oven, the most expensive oven we've ever had, by far AND by far, the least reliable. Bad combo...!

I texted him today to see if we could set up a time to plan when we will finish splitting our stuff. I said "when you get a chance today I'd like to discuss how we can proceed with accomplishing the items we discussed last week." He called me back shortly after I sent the text. He claims that it would be his only opportunity to talk today. So I told him that it did not need to happen today but we can agree on a date that will work with both our schedules. He suggested tomorrow evening but I told him that I have plans to go out. His response was "oh, with your brother?" I said "oh no just with my friends." Then I said that maybe Saturday would be best if he didn't have plans. He agreed.

The convo took a surprisingly positive turn. We discussed some stuff about the kids and my son living with his dad. H says he'd like to talk with my son's dad so he can exchange info and his experience. It was a perfect opportunity to validate and so I took it. We ended on a lighter note today and for now it's enough.

Count that^^^ as a positive. When you go home, be UPBEAT. Act as if you really have had an wakening and you know you are going to be FINE with him...or without.

And please find my post to you on the other thread (don't recall which one) b/c it's a tad long to go find now.

But I just hope you will continue to work on YOU, no matter who or what your h is.

Your children are watching you more than you know.

(((( )))

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Originally Posted By: Paz2014

Wounded,

It's a moment of weakness. I woke up and it began with one negative thought that spiraled. I did surrender to prayer and yes it helped. So, thank you!

I feel like he's leaving me in the dark. What am I saying...of course he is! I made it very clear to him that I will not tolerate infidelity in our M. If I did find evidence it would relieve the burden of failure on my part.

Wow, what an interesting way to view infidelity. So if he had an affair, you did nothing wrong and made no mistakes in the marriage?

In sum, it'd mean it's all him, AND You were a perfect wife, (whom he inexplicably left for OW?)?

Is this^^ something you still believe? Dig deep...

Then I can prepare myself mentally and decide if I want to continue fighting or if it's time to throw in the towel. No, I would not be happy about it. It would be devastating. Except, now the truth is out. It will provide some kind of closure. Of course, [b]my staying would greatly depend on how willing he is to work on things.
[/b]

IF he is having an affair currently, there's little chance he'll SAY or KNOW that he wants to work on the m b/c he's too busy justifying the A and your anger is fueling his reasons (which is why showing the WAS anger, does NOT HELP YOU).

You have to BE the better choice, and that's much easier if you do NOT snoop, so you can stay focussed on yourself.

IN fact, the single biggest reason I advise against snooping (and so does DB), is b/c it would take my focus off of MY own work and MY ISSUES, which are my responsibility.

I fear I'd just be blaming my h or OW instead of working on me.

I've read many success stories from marriages that have survived affairs. While I'm hopeful for those, it would take a miracle or a sincere effort on his part to keep me from leaving. I've lived that part in my first and second marriage and have watched my mom go through it. It's no picnic and I will not put my kids through that again.

I'm confused. THIS^^ is different from what you said just before. Be very clear with yourself on this issue and whether you'd entertain the idea of trying to work thru it, or not, or what your timing on that would be etc.

IF you KNOW w/100% certainty that him having an Affair would mean it's over for you, for good, and you'd file for divorce for sure -then maybe you should snoop away and if you can verify, you are done. NO saving this marriage...no working on forgiveness, etc.

FWIW, I do not sense certainty in you about this, at all as you admit others have successfully stayed married after an A, but then you say you won't put your kids "thru that again"...thru WHAT again? Another divorce or seeing forgiveness or what?

But here are some questions you may want to ask yourself....

Since this would be at least the 2nd time you have married a man who was unfaithful to you (and b/c you were also unfaithful earlier),

then what have YOU learned about yourself OR changed in yourself?

How was marriage modeled for you, growing up?

How was forgiveness shown in your family? How are YOU at forgiving others,

and how are you at asking for forgiveness?

What kind of legacy do you want to leave your kids?

Hang in there, we are all rooting for you.

25,thank you for your response and verbal prodding.

Wow, what an interesting way to view infidelity. So if he had an affair, you did nothing wrong and made no mistakes in the marriage? In sum, it'd mean it's all him, AND You were a perfect wife, (whom he inexplicably left for OW?)?
Is this^^ something you still believe? Dig deep...

-I accept my part in the deteriotion oh my M. All my self-protective stance that I adopted from previous hurts/disappointments was perpetuating the same negative patterns in my M. I didn't know. I did the best with what I knew at the time and it wasn't much compared to now. It's a shameful thing to admit that even when we think we're acting out of other's best interest that we're really just looking out for number 1.

I guess my question is: does he have to justify it with an A? It seems so cowardly to me. Looking back now I realize that's what I did when I had an A. My H then had an A so I justified his A with my A. And then I married the guy I had an A with. Some crazy, immature sh!t back then but I regret it. I regret my foolish actions. I regret the hurt I caused. I could never do that again nor put anyone through that kind of pain.

IF he is having an affair currently, there's little chance he'll SAY or KNOW that he wants to work on the m b/c he's too busy justifying the A and your anger is fueling his reasons (which is why showing the WAS anger, does NOT HELP YOU).

You have to BE the better choice, and that's much easier if you do NOT snoop, so you can stay focussed on yourself.

IN fact, the single biggest reason I advise against snooping (and so does DB), is b/c it would take my focus off of MY own work and MY ISSUES, which are my responsibility.

I fear I'd just be blaming my h or OW instead of working on me.
I'm confused. THIS^^ is different from what you said just before. Be very clear with yourself on this issue and whether you'd entertain the idea of trying to work thru it, or not, or what your timing on that would be etc.

IF you KNOW w/100% certainty that him having an Affair would mean it's over for you, for good, and you'd file for divorce for sure -then maybe you should snoop away and if you can verify, you are done. NO saving this marriage...no working on forgiveness, etc.

FWIW, I do not sense certainty in you about this, at all as you admit others have successfully stayed married after an A, but then you say you won't put your kids "thru that again"...thru WHAT again? Another divorce or seeing forgiveness or what?

I have been on the fence. There are days that I'm certain that I want to save it regardless of what he does but then there are days when I don't. I'm not sure how I'll feel once I discover an A. Devastated for sure but what will i do about it? What if he doesn't want to end it and is professing his undying love for the OW? I don't know if I will have it in me to endure to the end.

I think this is where I'm stuck. I feel the need to apply conditions for wanting to save it and I'm not sure if that's setting a healthy boundary or if I'm reverting to a self-protective stance. I don't want to lose my M but I don't think I can sit around and wait for my H to see his A through before he decides he wants to come home. Is this selfish thinking?

But here are some questions you may want to ask yourself....

Since this would be at least the 2nd time you have married a man who was unfaithful to you (and b/c you were also unfaithful earlier),

then what have YOU learned about yourself OR changed in yourself?

I've learned that A are no playing matter. That's some serious sin that I don't ever want to be entangled in ever again. It was the most selfish thing I've ever done and I wish I could take it back. I understand now why M is so sacred in the eyes of God and why it's important to protect it. I've done a really poor job and I can't take back the things I did that contributed to this point but I know what I can do differently.

How was marriage modeled for you, growing up?

Very poorly. I have had at least three stepdads of which two had an A and my mom walked away from the M. While I don't want to be like her and just give up, I truly don't know if I have what it takes to walk through it. I have never had to harness that kind of courage and I'm not sure if I'll have it until I'm there.

How was forgivenesths shown in your family? How are YOU at forgiving others,

Again, poorly. We don't or have never had to ask for forgiveness in our family. This wasn't a thing my mother taught us. We were taught not to mess up so there wouldn't be a need to forgive. If we did mess up then we were expected to know and realize the burden on those mistakes on our own...it was never brought up again.

and how are you at asking for forgiveness?

Probably not as good as I could be. I realize that forgiveness is part of a skillset that must be learned. The learning part however, is what's hard. I fall off...a lot. I want to forgive and do my best to forgive those who have hurt me but I've never learned how to heal from them. I'm okay until I get triggered and then all the emotions that come with past hurts and disappointments resurface and I become even more guarded.

What kind of legacy do you want to leave your kids?

Definitely not one of D. I want to break that cycle but I feel hopeless in doing so in my current stitch. It's like all I can focus on in my mind is him saying "Oh finally! Now, that I'm walking out the door are you getting it and wanting to make changes to save the M?" That's what I would be thinking if the situation were reverse. It's ruthless.

Hang in there, we are all rooting for you.

Thank you! It helps a lot to hear that. I know I will have many more moments like this. Yay.

I also know that it may take a lot longer than I'd like to undo and redo what's taken 33 years (of negative patterns) to develop.

So I'm back home. He picked me up from the airport and it's been a friendly evening but I feel like I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

After being gone for a month it feels odd to be in the house again. The bedroom is just as I left it. Most of everything in the house is just as I left it and yet it all feels unfamiliar to me. Foreign somehow. The bedroom walls and dressers are bare of our wedding pictures. It was my choice to remove prior to leaving for my trip because I didn't know how I would feel coming back home to them still in their place as if nothing had happened. They are still in the corner where I left them. The rest of pictures in the house are still up. This was comforting as it provided a bit of normalcy.

I almost slipped (or maybe subconsciously I wanted to) today by almost acting as if everything was okay between us. I almost called him honey and I almost wanted to sit down on the couch next to him and watch our shows together. Since I was focused on being on friendly terms I got very relaxed and comfortable. For a moment it felt like we were okay again and that I could tell him that I love him again. I didn't but I almost did out of habit. Would have been interesting to see his response.

He did spend at least 20 mins or more in the bedroom with me tonight. I engaged him in a convo about work and he was happy to oblige. While it felt good to be on pleasant speaking terms with him again it still felt awkward. It felt like we were dancing around the big elephant in the room. While I know this is a step towards a positive direction, tonight it doesn't feel like it's enough. I'm back in our bedroom sleeping in this big king size bed alone while he's sleeping in the next room over. Putting all things aside all this seems rather silly.

Tonight, it's just too painful.

I forgot to mention that he was still wearing his wedding ring. While this may seem like an insignificant matter at the moment it meant a lot to me. Then again whose to say that he didn't/hasn't taken it off when I'm not/wasn't looking? Truly, I don't know but the point is he still wears it. I haven't taken mine off since the last time I took it off to get a reaction out of him. Which I did btw and that was him handing me the S papers.

UPDATE

I just learned from a neighbor that H had been bringing a girl over while I was away. It turns out that it's the same girl he lied about in the beginning. Neighbor confirmed it by the picture I showed him. I'm totally crushed. All those times I was feeling suspicious was NOT unfounded.

I feel like my whole world is crumbling again and even though I have prepared myself for the possibility, it's still not any easier. I'm questioning the authenticity of everything that has happened in the past 6 years...it hurts to my very core. I feel hopeless of any reconciliation and I can't even begin to forgive an offense that he has yet to confess.

What do I do? Please help...

More details from neighbor that H has been bringing different girls home and not just the same one. Great, so it may be an addiction? I don't know which is worst.

I haven't confronted H since I'm still waiting on more solid evidence. It's gut wrenching though as I watch him lie to my face everyday. He still makes an effort to call me from his desk phone to let me know that he will be working late. Of course, he doesn't call me to let me know he's about to step out of the office and that he's on his way home. That's at least 2.5 hours of unaccounted time.

Since I've been home our interactions have been positive. Despite the info I learned from neighbor I have been playing it safe and acting "as if." I let him vent his feelings and I validate and empathize as much as I can. Even though our convos are about the unpleasantness that has occurred in the M, we still end on a productive note. At least in my mind I feel as though we have been able to share and feel heard that our convo drops off naturally. I know this is positive but it is incredibly difficult for me to remain positive right now after learning that my H is involved with multiple women. Please leave my heart on the floor because it hurts too much to have it back in my chest right now.

The question is...what do I do with this info? I feel like I need to confront him but I'm afraid I'm not armed enough to do so.

Paz, I'm so sorry. I don't know how I can help other than to say I am praying for you during your darkest hours.

It may be an addiction. It may be temporary insanity. But there is one thing I don't believe is that is has anything to do with you. I have been reading a lot about porn. I have used it my entire life up until 6 weeks ago. I read about it again tonight because I feel like my M is completely over and it seems like the stupidest time to quit when I'm totally by myself and feeling down. But the point is that at times like this I read about the addiction instead to remind myself why I am stopping.

The fact is that it is a form of self medication. That's it. It has nothing to do with how good of a W you are, how beautiful you are, etc. I never cheated on my W but I'm sure there is a rush you get from feeling attractive enough to seduce other women, etc. But in the middle of it is a deep hole, a lack of self worth, insecurity, loneliness, misery, and the need to cover it up. We grab anything when we fall.

That doesn't make it ok, mean you should forgive him, trust him, or be willing to give him another chance. I have no idea when to confront him, or how to walk that fine balance between being empathetic and giving him a chance to course correct vs. setting boundaries. I don't know. It's tough.

I just want you to detach, rise above, realize it has nothing to do with the wonderful person you are, and that it's similar to him binge drinking at the bar or having a gambling problem. Maybe that's a good way to think of it. If it was a gambling problem how would you treat it? That makes it easier to see past how it makes you feel and instead look at him compassionately. Doesn't mean you'd lend him money or sign on a credit card, or even stay with him. But I hope it makes it easier to feel good about your growth. You have given so much to me and others on this board I hope you know you are special, and deep down your H knows it. I pray it will come to the surface.

Thank you Zeus for your kind and uplifting words. Compliments in this house are scarce these days so it means a lot to me. I'm waiting for the emotions to kick in but instead I just feel more determined to fight. Call me crazy. Today would be our three year wedding anniversary. I'm not expecting anything but I am in mourning today.

This is some scary sh!t I'm walking into. I hope it's temporary insanity and not something that has been covered up all this time. I don't know this man and frankly I'm not sure if I want to. I'm back to questioning reality and my own sanity. I feel like I'm going crazy. He's more cunning than I gave him credit for. I saw him as this kind and gentle creature incapable of deceiving me and yet it all seems like a fa�ade. But then all those feelings I felt--they were real. All the memories we shared--they happened. I felt his love for me--it was solid.

Could it really be completely unrelated to me? It can't all be purely physical, right? I'm having a hard time with that. He's lying about everything under the sun. I don't quite get why. I mean he's the one wanting a D. Why go through such lengths covering sh!t up? Just to think that one of the girls is just the next building over. I'm utterly disgusted. What kind of woman is she or are they to get involved with a married man? I mean I know at least one of them is like 25-35 lbs heavier than me and she's not very pretty. Here I am barely 5'2 and 109 lbs. I stay in shape and eat healthy. What do they have that I don't? WTF?

I think it's time for some anxiety meds or something because hyper alert that I can't sleep when I should and then sleep when I shouldn't. I'm attuned to every bit of squeak and creek in the house. My mind is on overdrive. I'm thinking there's someone in the other room with him and they're doing it right under my nose. I don't think this is really happening but it all feels very real.

How the heck has anyone been able to get through this without completely losing one's mind?

Hi Paz-
I don't really have any advice. I'm new here also. But, I just want you to know that you aren't alone. I have some good evidence that my H is a serial cheater as well. I am interested to see what help you get from vets. I will keep checking back on you.
I'm sorry you are going thru this, but you aren't alone.

Hugs!

Thanks, Sam! Feels good to know that I'm not alone in this. As things unfold, I feel as though my stitch is taking a unique turn--one that does seem to be addressed in DR. At least IMO. I suppose it could fall under addiction but I don't remember reading how to identify and approach serial cheaters. I'm hoping that it's just self medication rather than something too permanent where there is limited to no help.

How are you dealing with your suspicions? I have another coaching sesh tomorrow and I'm curious as to how my coach will suggest I tackle this.

Hugs to you too!

Paz. Just wanted to check in. Haven't heard from you for a while. Hoping you're doing ok. Whatever is going on please know you've been a lot of support and comfort to those on this site and in your life.

You can catch up on my thread if you'd like. I've been posting more about what I'm going through, and referenced 'sexualcontrol.com' and it's free online pdf book 'the most personal addiction'. I really like it's common sense approach to sexual addiction, and the underlying issues of facing reality and uncomfortable emotions. I'd encourage you to check it out because it also talks a lot to the spouse of that person. I pray you'll have a chance to use in an R. If nothing else I hope it helps you understand your role in the situation. Namely that nothing is because of who you are, but that there are some common dynamics that can occur.

Anyway, hope to hear from you soon. Hang in.

PS- I've been curious about the user name change. Is there an explanation you can share? No big deal. Just nosy

Hey Zeus,

I appreciate you checking up on me. I'm still hanging in there. I will check out that reference, thank you!

I've stopped posting because of all the conflicting info i was receiving. While some helped, others made it more confusing in my head. I've decided to rely on IC and coaching. Still working on myself and i'm def in a better place.

I changed my username because I was not thinking when I created it--it was just too obvious!

I was not careful enough and now all that info is out there. As of now H is in his own room. I revealed what I had learned form the neighbors and he neither confirmed nor denied it but I know better. From the sound of things he is texting back and forth--i'm guessing with the OW. It has been a nightly thing. I hope you are doing well in your personal journey.

I will limit my contact on this site to just PM because it eliminates the public audience. Feel free to reach me there if you're comfortable.