I need your guys help and advice discussing the OP with my W and some challenges that happened last night.
I've been working through the process of detaching, including traveling to the new town for the past couple days checking out neighborhoods and getting comfortable with the new city. It turns out that I absolutely love the new city and am really excited about living there.
While you can see on the board that I am cycling, I have been making real progress on dealing with things. This trip was actually key to that. I keep feeling that everything is out of my control, and I need to keep getting my life back on track.
So here is my question. My W still hasn't admitted that she is in a R with the OP. She has been hiding that, and a couple other things from me, her family and our friends.
The last couple interactions with her she has been very tense, including the lunch she invited me to yesterday where she was visibly grimacing at the beginning.
Last night, she called me up furious because my MIL thought I insulted her (she is watching the kids, I came home and found my D16 smoking weed, and my S8 watching it and seeing MJ edibles out on the counter. I told the MIL that I didn't think that was appropriate and took the stuff and threw it away. My MIL called the W telling her that I demeaned her and was talking to her like a child).
The W calls up furious, demanding that I apologize to the MIL. I defaulted into the afraid of the W's anger and placating. I should have just stayed quiet and took it, though this was the first time that the W has outwardly been hostile angry since the first week or two after separation.
One thing I noticed is that as the R with the OP gets more serious, the tension from the W gets higher and higher. Knowing my W very well, it's because she is guilty and afraid. She tends to withdraw and get very angry at me when she is hiding something. (and she is currently hiding credit card she opened (and blew up) as well as the R with the OP.
So, the advice I am looking for.
I want to tell her this -
I've known about known about the OP, and the CC. While I am not happy with a couple things, We both have a right to find happiness in whatever way we choose.
I choose to show compassion, and have empathy. I choose not to control her, because it only hurts me. I choose to remember the 14 years of friendship, and act as a friend first.
It's been really hard for me to find the confidence to go out alone, to start to be at ease with myself. If I was in her situation (a beautiful woman, in a new town without many past friends), I probably would have broke and found someone to hold me on those lonely nights.
The bottom line, we both deserve happiness, we both deserve the chance to find ourselves. I don't want either of us to have the added stress, and worrying about what will happen when the elephants in the room finally comes out. Lets just get it out, accept it for what it is and move on to working on our co-parenting skills and each of our personal happiness.
## end proposed W talk ##
So, is this a good way of dealing with it? I don't feel I should avoid it. As her R with the other person has heated up, she has both withdrawn from me (which is fine and appropriate, and will happen anyways) but more importantly has become a bit more hostile.
Looking for advice here before I act.
So yes, I don't like it. It hurt when I found out. I'm worried about how it will affect the kids. But being all stressed about it doesn't help anyone or anything.
I've been working through the process of detaching, including traveling to the new town
How is that detaching? Read this:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/14712-developing-detachment/My W still hasn't admitted that she is in a R with the OP. She has been hiding that, and a couple other things from me, her family and our friends.
So is W supposed to tweet "I'm in an R with OP!"? And you seem to know a lot about what's going on with OP. Is this from social media? If so, is W really hiding it?
Last night, she called me up furious because my MIL thought I insulted her
Practice looking at things from other's POV on communication. There are two components, content and delivery. The basic content sounds valid, but how was the delivery? Is it unreasonable to think that a rational person would have been insulted? Could delivery be an issue you have? I recall an admission about how you handled W's weight.
I defaulted into the afraid of the W's anger and placating.
Yeah, I've been down this sorry road of blaming other factors. I started to recover when I thought of the phrases "I choose to" and "I choose not to". I control me. You control you. Whatever your reaction to this was, it was your choice.
One thing I noticed is that as the R with the OP gets more serious, the tension from the W gets higher and higher. Knowing my W very well, it's because she is guilty and afraid.
Sorry, but you don't know that. That's mindreading.
she is currently hiding credit card she opened (and blew up)
I assume you have proof and that isn't mindreading. You need to protect yourself ASAP. Have you talked with a L? I can give you the name of shark or a collaborative L in Austin if interested.
I want to tell her this -
I've known about known about the OP, and the CC. While I am not happy with a couple things, We both have a right to find happiness in whatever way we choose.
I choose to show compassion, and have empathy. I choose not to control her, because it only hurts me. I choose to remember the 14 years of friendship, and act as a friend first.
It's been really hard for me to find the confidence to go out alone, to start to be at ease with myself. If I was in her situation (a beautiful woman, in a new town without many past friends), I probably would have broke and found someone to hold me on those lonely nights.
The bottom line, we both deserve happiness, we both deserve the chance to find ourselves. I don't want either of us to have the added stress, and worrying about what will happen when the elephants in the room finally comes out. Lets just get it out, accept it for what it is and move on to working on our co-parenting skills and each of our personal happiness.
And what results from this discussion?
I have not had the discussion yet, I am getting advice from people. I am focusing on doing things "the right way" at least with positive outcomes. Part of that is thinking before I speak and act.
Also, me going to the new town was a mental thing for me. Early on she had sad she decided that she was moving to the new town (1800 miles away). I had been feeling like the tip of the whip, and I needed to be cool with the move personally.
The only way of doing that was to go out exploring neighborhoods, meet up with some friends there, and have a PMA about it. It turns out that I love the town, and I think i'll do really well there (I am lucky enough that I can work anywhere in the world).
And yes, I have a credit card statement that made its way to the house. This has been an ongoing issue over our marriage, compulsive spending. Basically W was never content with anything, always wanted more. Always compared herself to others vs being confident in the life we built and what we had. It is a sickness, and I supported it. I have a huge responsibility in creating that monster.
Now, she wants more young life, or more OP, etc etc. Regarding the OP she was getting very sloppy on social media, and posting stuff. She also got onto live TV while on dates, and multiple checkins during a weekend getaway. At this point, now that it is confirmed, i'm in live and let live mode.
She has a right to do what she can to help her find happiness, and so do I. At some point she may come out of this stupidity. Either way I have to focus on continuing my healing and growing through this. That is exactly what I have been doing.
I have unfollowed her on all social media
My question wasn't what happened with the discussion, it was what is the point of having that discussion? What do you hope to accomplish with it?
That great that you unfollowed her. Now how often are you going to go look? You don't have to follow to see her stuff I bet. And OP? How often do you look at his stuff? And please tell me you aren't following him.
The point of having the discussion is to get it out on the table. In the past W would get really really really angry when she was hiding stuff. The guilt that she felt would turn into resentment towards me. If I get it out and address it, she will blow up in the short term, but then at least just have her behavior, and not the anger from the guilt.
As for the OM I just had to check, I just unfollowed him (though now I just realize that he is apparently at the same conference as the W and me.
It looks like
1. No drinking at the conference
2. On avoidance plan for a bunch of different people
3. Just make it through every day without getting dragged into their crazy BS.
Hey nettles, how do I contact you offline? I'd like to ask you some questions privately about your experiences
No idea on how to do anything privately, and I'm not putting any personal identifying info on here. Sorry, but you can ask away here or on my thread. I have nothing to hide. If it is to tell me to bug off, just do it. Just trying to help.
If it is about my experiences, they are here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...758#Post2443758You'll note that there was no OM in my sitch. Easily could have been though. And that isn't a comment on W, that is a comment on what I did and the way I treated W and the R.
So re: OM, I'm really at the limits of what I can offer. I do think you need to think through having that convo.
I'd suggest looking at posts from Starsky (vanquished OM) and MrBond (vanquished OM and provides tough love for those that want to be victims) and Sandi (gives a perspective you and I don't have).
Nettles, I have nothing negative to say about you at all. You have been super helpful. I was just looking for a good divorce focused IC contact info in the Austin area for me, but didn't want to post it publicly.
Day1 complete of attending a conference with the W and the OP.
My plan was / is
1. Have a txt discussion bringing the affair and the debt to a discussion between us so W wouldn't be all defensive around me.
2. Work out
3. Avoid drinking to much (I did have a beer before an evening run)
4. Make sure to surround myself with friends
We has a good txt convo about the secrets. She knew that I already knew (I had mentioned it to her mother in conversation a while back)
W agreed bases on my text of working on our friendship no matter what
W said she doesn't trust me with her emotions, or that I had her best interests in mind. And that she guess's that will take time.
W also said that she questions my "big changes" and that will take time.
When I finally got confirmation from her that she is in a R with the other man it hurt. In my heart I felt like that was a confirmation of the failure of the M. My head kicked in and logic told me that the OP is nothing she would normally like, that these affairs are shallow and don't last.
I chose to out myself first. I took a drive down do the coast, walked (and cartwheeled) down the beach. Sat on a log and wrote. Cried at the loss, and tried to focus on being me, not us.
Good or bad, I'm doing my best to live my life.
I have to sit and think about her replies, I think that her being honest with not trusting me with her emotions is a good step, and that her cutting off the OP (which for her is most likely a crutch for her self esteem) will be the last to go.
Nettles, to answer your question, I have been doing pretty good at not looking. At first I was wondering if I was overthinking, and maybe they were just friends.
I had to much hope, now I know that they are in a Relationship. I know that they are going to be doing stuff, having fun together, living the life. I know that looking at that only hurts me.
When I want to check, I just repeat "If I truly loved myself, would I do this to myself" and the answer is consistently no. So I haven't been. It's been pretty empowering.
Contact update
The W txt's me back after I brought the OP, he debt and the school refund to light.
And said that she would like to work towards friendship as well.
She said she didn't trust me with her emotions or best interests. And that she guesses that will take time.
And she questions my big changes. Saying had they are placating
I Waited a day and told her that I can seen how she would feel that way, but these changes are for me, that is irrespective of what "we" look like.
She responded with a note - glad your happy, have a good one.
I had to call her about something later in the day, and she was actually pleasant again. Not sure if there is a correlation. But I'll take every small step forward I can get.
On a personal note, I haven't been checking up on her social media, snooping etc. I've been surrounding myself with supportive fun people. There ups and downs still come, but I am working through them.
Baby steps.
What did you have to "call her out on?"
Have you separated the accounts and taken your name off her credit cards? If so, then simply forward that statement to her and let her deal with it. If it doesn't affect you, it's her business.
I really see no progress made in you having the OP discussion with your WAW. She has separated from you, and unless/until she attempts to make a move toward reconciling....I don't think it will benefit you.
What I see is you wanting to let her know that you know about OP. Clear and simple. What will that accomplish? If anything, it could make matters worse since you have a problem of fearing her anger. Informing her that you know....and yet can do nothing, just makes your position seem weak. It's like saying, "You can rub it in my face, but I won't do anything...just wanted you to know I am aware of it". What good will that do?
I think men have some desired expectation from telling the W he knows. He wants her to know she isn't fooling him. And I can see that point. But it will not solve anything. I believe it could be to your advantage not to let her know the information you have, at this time. Does anyone else know about it?
She is going to do what she wants to do, and if she feels you are trying to pressure her....she will not respond how you want.
If you want to live there to be close to the kids, make a life apart from her. There should be a discussion about the A before attempting to live together again. She has a history of keeping things from you, and that would need to be addressed as well.
Oh, and stop talking to her about your changes! And stop finding reasons to contact her.
Sandi2, Labug. I brought up the those items (the OP, the debt, the refund) for a couple reasons.
We work in the same in industry (at the same conference right now, which has it's challenges. In the circles we are in it was becoming common knowledge, however she had been casual about it. Then recently cleaned up any evidence online after I had mentioned it to her mother (bad move on my part, I am not not talking about anything to the MIL). I felt like I was looking weak (I felt weak) by not acknowledging it. I am taking back some power. I am drawing a boundary here that I will not accept negative interactions based on hiding lies. I'd rather address them and show compassion. That is my choice on how I want to live my life. This is also a big 180 from earlier in our relationship. I used to be the worst at passive aggressive behavior about these things. While she learned the hiding and lying from her mom, my actions in our marriage just made it worse.
It's not that I accept it, it's that I understand. Our marriage wasn't working well. We both had problems. Our communication sucked. We had all sorts of challenges over the past couple years. I have made the decision that this is going to be a year apart. Even if tomorrow we choose to reconcile (which is very unlikely to happen) I want us to live in different houses for this year. To date, work on therapy, and build the rest of our lives the right way. But most importantly, I'm doing really good with my changes. Yes life is super hard, but I am growing so much. I don't want to shortcut this growth. I need it for me, I need it for the family, and no matter if we end up back together or not, I need it to be fair to my W.
Up to this point, past the fires of the original break up she has been pretty nice when we talk on the phone or in person. Last week when i was in the new town looking for a good neighborhood to live in she found out I was there. And asked me to lunch to give me some packages of mine she had forwarded.
I could tell she was being eaten alive waiting for me to say something. She was grimacing, and frankly a bit mean. In our marriage this same pattern would happen. She would do something "bad" and then hide it and feel guilty. That would escalate into a pattern of negative interactions on her part towards me.
I just wanted to nip the negative interactions in the butt. Also, it was just eating me away inside. I have chosen to be compassionate. To not control her. To stand firm in my own life and break the habits of co-dependancy (I have a hard time, but get better every day).
My hope was that by brining this stuff to light, we could at least address the elephant in the room and work towards continuing the positive interactions. We are both adults, and parents, and we were friends for so many years. I know that she needs to go work this stuff out, and I am busy working myself out too.
Sandi2 - thanks for the advice to stop talking about my changes.
She did give me a text that she doesn't trust me with her emotions, and she doesn't believe my "big changes" because of the difference from what she hears from others. I guess at the end of the day she just has to see them consistently right? Even if she doesn't though, I am really starting to sink in that these are for me.
I am not trying to pressure her, though I caught myself getting drawn into her parents demands that I control her and fill their roles as parents. I pushed back by reminding them that they needed to parent her, not me. Honestly though, I just need to avoid them. Nothing good ever comes from my interactions with them.
Great point about keeping a separate life. When we first split, I was broken. She wanted us to get apartments in the same complex. I agreed back then, but changed my mind. At lunch I told her that I was not going to live in the same neighborhood. That I was going to live in a place that fit me. it was funny while talking to her though, that I had explored more of the new town and met more new people then she had. And she has been out there for three months. I take that as a win for the changes I have been making. My social anxiety is starting to wane. I can walk up to a group of people and talk to them just fine. I am pleasant and outgoing most of the time now. I feel me coming back.
My life is becoming better as I disconnect and gain my self respect back. I am getting more and more visibility into our mutual challenges that led to where we are today. I am keep oscillating between the sad moments, and the happy moments. But every day a bit more of my true self creeps back in. And most importantly I'm doing it on my own vs just falling into the arms of another person. I am not perfect, but I am proud of myself. I want to keep this ball rolling.
And now Ashley just reached out for coffee and lunch. We had coffee and lunch. I was getting some interesting signals, but really have to look into my heart.
I'll post more when I think about it more.
So, she reached out via phone. I got back to her a couple hours later. She suggested we go get coffee, I suggested offsite so it would be private.
We found a little place and sat down. She chose a table where the seats were close vs across the table and sat with her toes pointed towards me.
The conversation went ok, but then went into talk about an issue that had happened with the D16, and the MIL. It got a little tense, her body language changed. I remembered the 27 rules and that the MIL / Daughter issue was R talk.
She kept pressing if I was having sex with anyone. Which I thought was odd since she keeps saying she doesn't care. I have kept with my mantra that I am working on me, and that just isn't something I care to do.
She said that the OP was a "serious friend" and that they hang out and smoke weed, and then after a bit more discussion said that he was something more then a friend, but less then a boyfriend. (after I brought up colorado).
I realized what was happening and said, hey this is super serious, lets not talk about serious stuff and pinky swore on it.
I was feeling pretty sick this morning,
My thoughts, the OP is not here right now and she is lonely, so now she wants attention from me. Just my thoughts. The talk was good though. She also shared that she kicked all of the pills that the dr's had her on, and now her kidneys are fine. I was so happy to hear that she was healthier. I had been scared for so long.
She came with me to lunch, where I grabbed a salad and did some active listening. I also tested her reception by the pinky swear, and then she said that she may be breaking out, and I touched her face to check and she didn't pull back.
We then went to her booth on the floor here and met with the girl she wanted to introduce me too. I proceed to challenge the girl to a cartwheel contest.
The only bad thing is that she needs money for her new place, she did bring it up. I may be being manipulated. I just don't know. I don't trust my heart, I don't trust my head, I don't trust her. I want to rebuild trust but this is super hard.
Also, I need to do better at listening to everyone here. When I get in person, it goes so fast it is hard to do what I am supposed to do. (this is only the 3rd time I've seen her in 3 months) hopefully it gets easier over time.
I honestly wouldn't be giving her money outside of any legal agreement, despite how much you care for her.
I haven't agreed to anything. I don't trust myself to make decisions like that right now. I just want to be kind, caring and compassionate but protect my own interests.
Good morning Everyone,
Last night was a success. I survived being a the same industry party as the W. I was there first, talking working the room and talking to people. I did a good job of focusing on my conversations, and putting me as a priority.
She came up an tapped me on the shoulder, saying she was going to a specific bar. (she did grab some friends that I had plans to go out with.... a bit of mind games I guess) I was cordial, smiled and said ok and then went back to my conversation.
Positive interactions - Check
Didn't take the bait to pursue - Check
Confident, popular, desirable - Check
Smiling, and actually happy - Check
Not talking about separation in depth to friends - Check
Going now to re-read sandi's 27 rules. I broke a few of them over the past couple days .. but I am doing better then I thought I would.
Sandi2,
I just re-read your post. This is good advice. Thank you for putting it out there.
I am reading signals, but it is sooo soon for anything to happen.
"If you want to live there to be close to the kids, make a life apart from her. There should be a discussion about the A before attempting to live together again. She has a history of keeping things from you, and that would need to be addressed as well."
That is great advice. Me getting to the point of knowing, believing and wanting to take things slow has been huge for my PMA. It is me taking control of my life. I feel great abut it. Hearing people like you say this helps me stay strong.
Nice work. Onwards and upwards
Thanks unbidden. Each day is one step closer to something right?
Had a new awkward moment. Went to go walk into a session. So the W sitting up front (her back was turned, but her hair sticks out).
Just turned and walked out. Avoiding the perception of pursuit and any drama. Because it was unexpected, seeing her in that room. It kind of threw me back on my heals.
Question,
I was talking through the situation with one of my friends and he pointed out a behavior that the W was showing.
First, when we sat down she found a flaw on my face (a straight hair on my beard and asked if she could pull it). From what I can tell this is what is called a "neg" to break down confidence and pull the power of the conversation towards her.
Later that night, when she came into a party I was at, she grabbed one of my friends and had him "summon me". I promptly ignored that and continued the conversation I was in.
Question to the board. Does anyone else see these behaviors in their WAW / WAS? I am learning more and more every day about body language, and things like a "neg". It is helping me to better understand that games that the W would play with me. I was hoping that someone had more perspective.
She has done nothing out of the usual behaviors of a WAW, that I can tell. However, one your biggest challenges will be for YOU to not make more of her actions than it is really is.
Many men get into analyzing his WAW and before you know it, he's obsessed with every movement and trying to figure out what it means.
The WAW in an A is very unstable. Their emotions are on a wild ride! As you said, it is much to early, and I think it would be in your best interest to just accept at surface value what you see from her. She's like a school cafeteria menu....."subject to change".
If you are watching which way her toes point when she is sitting with you....I have to wonder if you are watching a bit intently. And if you are....she notices. So back away from that temptation to study every movement b/c it could become a mental wear & tear on you.
This is a long road and you need to take care of yourself mentally/emotionally, as well as physically.
Sandi2
Thanks for the clarification. I did notice her body language change throughout the meal. Though, the only reason I noticed her foot direction was because I was surprised by the table choice, and how she let me break her physical boundaries. I hadn't been looking for it, just a friend of mine brought it up a couple days before, and I looked down and noticed.
Question
Does the WAW in an A journey parallel the stages of MLC?
Also, my W was bringing up all these 180's she had been making. Getting promoted at work, kicking a bunch of pills the Dr's had her on, not working at night. I know I shouldn't be fishing for signs, but in our past relationship that would be her looking for me to acknowledge her changes.
I was thinking about shooting her an email later today acknowledging the changes and telling her that I know it is hard and I am proud of her. Do you guys think that is a good idea? Or should I just keep on no-contact?
Again, I really appreciate the guidance from everyone here.
Mac,
You might try Nicole Stover if you are going to be south or Rebecca Hayhurst if north. But there should be no shortage of quality counselors in town.
Big Mac, I'd be cautious about that. I don't like to initiate communication with a friendly tone unnecessarily, let her control the amount of 'strokes' exchanged and leave her a tiny bit hungry for more. Besides, she might be trying to show off how well she's doing without you, etc.
What I would do is have that as a casual 'talking point', so next time you see her IF the situation permits or the conversation allows you could drop a phrase like "glad you're doing well". Or if she sent you an email you could reply with something similar, "It's good to see you doing well". But keep it really brief, casual, and off the cuff, worked in around the response you give to whatever conversation SHE initiates.
That's just me though. I really feel like letting them control the frequency and friendliness of interactions is better than trying to 'edge in' or 'warm things up'.
Take care bud!
Thanks Nettles,
I'll be in SoCo / South Austin. I'll reach out to her.
Does the WAW in an A journey parallel the stages of MLC?
The symptoms are very similar.
Sandi2 - so what are the differences? Timeline, motivation,
Should I expect the progression through stages to be similar too?
Zues126 now that I am on a laptop vs my little phone screen I saw your note.
I've been playing with different contact methods. The more I well, detach the less I care about not reaching out to her as a strong and fast rule. There is a bunch of moving business that has to get done.
I was so afraid of her reactions, that I would have anxiety about reaching out. Now, I am starting to clearly understand that a WAW in an A is basically driven insane by her conflicting emotions. Some days she's good, some days she's bad.
There is absolutely nothing I can do to make her like me, make her happy. She has to work through that on her own. All I can do is just keep finding my true self. My happy, confident, loving, big hearted (even while broken) self.
For the longest time, I was so hung up on why I didn't feel that she loved me. I think both of us just didn't love ourselves. How could we love each other. I'm starting to love me just a little bit more now. I'm actually being kinda happy with the me that I am turning out to be.
Thanks everyone.
Good for you Big Mac! I'm there with you bud. Funny you say that, I've had a similar experience.
I initiated an email exchange (at the advice of my DB coach though) that was a teeny bit more open than we had been for a while. Not emotions about her, but just how I was a little scared of taking on more parental responsibility at a time when my kids are going through so much, how I know it's a sensitive situation and I don't want to mess it up.
Then, she asked me if I could watch the kids for her next Sunday a little early so she could go to a baby shower. She then mentioned a trip she was taking and how she wasn't sure if she was taking the dog because she got car sick, but wasn't sure what to do. I told her I'd be happy to come early and that I love spending time with the kids. I went on to say it's nice we can be flexible so if there's something cool going on I want to take my son to we can discuss it, and likewise if she wants to go out some evening to consider letting me have first option of watching them. Finally I mentioned that if the dog was left behind I'd be happy to help take care of her (I didn't say stay at the house full time, I left it vague).
Again, it seemed a semi tone more friendly, but it wasn't invasive of boundaries, had no expectations, and had nothing to do with feelings towards each other. I felt ok with it because it was very laid back.
And FINALLY (here's where this is not a total hi-jack) I am starting to feel the same way. I'm starting to like who I am and the life I have. I'm not desperate or needy, or on pins and needles about how she'll react. I'm just being myself in a way that I feel represents my BEST self. And since I was reasonably detached I felt it was no biggie. You're right...at some point going to the extreme of NEVER initiating a call is just abnormal in life and communicates that you're either pissed off or playing a game. I just think it's a good guideline in general because it's easy to rationalize pursuit and hard to mess up no contact.
Keep going Big Mac, I'm celebrating your growth and each day it gets easier to be strong!
Sandi2 - so what are the differences? Timeline, motivation,
Should I expect the progression through stages to be similar too?
I believe it was in Divorce Remedy.
Had a contact yesterday. I am working out of the new town this week. This time when I was in town I told her since I am a little less uncomfortable with dealing with her.
I also noted that she had said that she only had two pairs of pants when she left (there are probably 30 pairs of jeans in her closet at home). Being a nice guy, I packed a couple pairs of her jeans in my cary on. Though, I figure that she was lying as the CC bills I saw were full of Nordstroms purchases. Either way, I thought I would do something nice and bring a few pairs along.
The odd thing is, I brought it up that I had them in the car, and she didn't want to grab them (excuse was time). But suggested we get together the day after.
We ended up making loose plans to have coffee yesterday. Though yet again she was stringing me along and not being very respectful of my schedule. I finally called her up and nailed down a time / location.
This was all business. I put together a proposed agenda so we could stay on topic. She was very uptight, and carrying so much resentment. I know she must be going through a lot, but it is very exhausting to have treated her with compassion at every moment over the past couple months and to have her treat me like some evil person.
I did bring up a list of things I wanted to do with the kids, segregating phone bills and insurance. Basically putting a reality check in front of her. She wants to be separate, she wants to date other men. Well, then she can be an adult paying for her own bills, dealing with her own emergencies.
She was a bit miffed that she had to pay for her own deposit on her rental home, and said that she "Asked" me. All she did was hint, and I advocated for my own needs. This came up, and I reminded her that I have been working on myself, working on the co-dependant behaviors that were very destructive in our relationship.
So, it was a bit tense. She was getting ready to go on a date with the OP. But I held my ground. I set the tone of the meeting. I was firm, but compassionate. I put on a bit of heat about the reality of the situation. I think I did good.
It looks like we are getting together tonight after her work, this time just to hang out (I mentioned that in one of my communication courses that a 5/1 ratio of just BS to hard talk is necessary to maintain positive interactions). This time we have a pinky swear just to hang out. I'm hoping it should be fun. Or it may be a giant disaster, either way it is a step forward.
Sandi2 - I'll have to re-read that chapter in DR. I'm on my 3rd time reading through the book. I seem to learn something new every time.
IMO, you are giving mixed messages. You go pack her jeans and take to her, saying you were being the nice guy. You said even though she was lying, you thought you would do something nice for her. So you have no qualms about that?
The odd thing is, I brought it up that I had them in the car, and she didn't want to grab them (excuse was time). But suggested we get together the day after.
How she responded was not odd for a WW. What you did was odd, IMO. You were trying to make points, and it failed. She could have cared less that you went out of your way to pack her clothes.
We ended up making loose plans to have coffee yesterday. Though yet again she was stringing me along and not being very respectful of my schedule. I finally called her up and nailed down a time / location.
Look at your own words. You are pushing her and she is stringing you along. "We" (But I bet it was you pushing) "ended up" (meaning she finally agreed) "loose plans" (nothing definite) "called her" (chasing) "nailed down" (persistence and not getting the hint she didn't want to go).
This was all business. I put together a proposed agenda so we could stay on topic. She was very uptight, and carrying so much resentment. I know she must be going through a lot, but it is very exhausting to have treated her with compassion at every moment over the past couple months and to have her treat me like some evil person.
What you see as compassion in yourself, may not be what she sees. When you pursue and push to be with her, do things for her.....she doesn't see compassion there. She's not looking for compassion from you. Can you understand that? She resents you and wants away from you. It is smothering to her. She may not intentionally stringing you along, but rather just tries to get out of spending these times with you. She should be more blunt and tell you to forget it, but maybe you won't take no for an answer.
She wants to be separate, she wants to date other men. Well, then she can be an adult paying for her own bills, dealing with her own emergencies.
Yes, she needs to put her big girl panties on! No more playing Mr. Nice Guy stuff.
Then your last paragraph goes back to mixed messages. You just said she wants to separate and date OM. You said she needs a reality check and be an adult. But then you say this:
It looks like we are getting together tonight after her work, this time just to hang out
This time we have a pinky swear just to hang out.
I'm hoping it should be fun. Or it may be a giant disaster, either way it is a step forward.
You want to hang out and have fun with a person who has clearly stated she wants to leave you and date OM. Then you do a real "adult" action of sealing with a pinky swear.
Maybe that was from her, IDK. But regardless of how it goes, you see it a step forward? Why? B/c spending a little time with her, in your opinion must be a step forward?
Sandi2 - Thank you for the 2x4. So for tonight, l am going to let her call me. If she doesn't call me I'm going to ignore her.
The plans for coffee were to go over a long laundry list of items necessary (we are parents, moving house, etc). I tried to stay away from R talk.
The point of "pinky swear" is to avoid talking about R. Just to deal with what we have to deal with and work towards some sort of friendship that will allow us to mutually parent our children.
Honesty wise, she did confuse me with being honest about receiving child support payments for D16 for the last 14 years, and not sharing them with the family. It just left me to pay for everything. So, she is being honest with this is a huge step.
The "Step forward" is establishing some sort of communication. I have a hope, though it is probably wrong that she is wavering. Either way, I want to be able to have a friendly relationship with the Mother of my son.
I think I need to not call or contact her tonight. Let her call me, and if it doesn't happen that is fine. Back to the LRT in full swing.
Getting together is just to build some sort of working relationship and trust. My gut feel is she is wavering, but I need to not screw it up. I really appreciate the advice and perspective here.
Sandi2 - you nailed it. W bailed on tonight. I'm about to throw her clothes in the trash. So sick of her crap.
I got an update for everyone.
The night W bailed, I called her. I was calm at the time, but basically said WTF, you aren't being very considerate. She said she was expecting me to call her, (I know, you can't listen to anything she says.
I said I still had her clothes in my trunk. And agreed that I would drop them off at her house after my dinner was done.
I end up calling her after my dinner, and she started saying that is was to far out of the way for me to drop them off, and I became very frustrated about being jerked around (I think this is my codependancy coming through). Our discussion turned sour and I should have just stopped the conversation there.
It escalated with both of us using control talk, me just trying to give her the jeans, her just not wanting to deal with me.. I just wanted to do something kind vs all the pain that has been inflicted on both sides. It was short sighted on my side.
My last button got pushed, and I told her to stop, she is ruining my life. shortly after I hung up on her. This is the first time since the separation I have verbalized to her any affect of her actions on me. It felt good, but I did worry that it will have a negative affect.
(I'm going to post the conversation of yesterday into the next post)
So, the day after I give her a call. And she txt's back that she can't talk right now because she is too emotional.
I respond back saying I can understand that, and that I am pretty emotional too right now. I told her that I am trying to be kind, that we have caused each other enough pain, and we don't have to do it anymore.
I told her that I want to be kind to each other, and I believe we can do that. (The topic of me bringing her bunny out with me instead of her sending it to the breeder was what we were talking about).
I told her that I was being compassionate and kind for me. That I am tired of hurting, tired of being resentful, tired of being angry. That I want to be that happy kind of person, not someone consumed by divorce.
I told her we can be friendly and still be apart. We can do kind things for each other and still have separate lives. We can do this for ourselves, and also the kids.
(this above was all in txt in the morning). She did not reply, but I am sure she read it.
Later that evening, I gave her a call. We ended up talking for 44 minutes, it actually went really good. She expressed a bit of her frustration and fears of me "pretending" to change, her taking me back and then a month later being in the same pattern.
I responded by telling her the truth. I haven't mentioned this for a couple months now, but I did tell her that I still love her, that I will always love her, that I've talked to people who have gone down this road 15 years ago, and they still love their ex's.
I told her I wanted to still live apart. While I am open to the idea of reconciliation, I need more time and space to work on me, and I need to see that some of the changes she is making are permanent too.
I told her that this has been the hardest thing that has ever happened to me, and that there have been days of sadness, despair and pain. That for the past 4-6 weeks or so I have been working through things, and finding myself. That I am still in that process and I need time. That I don't want to slip back into our old patterns.
I was using some better communication methods of acknowledging her feelings ("I can see how you feel that way"). I was just being open and honest. I was being a bit vulnerable. I was demonstrating empathy.
I also took a huge risk, I told her that if I was in her position (hot blonde surrounded by male options) that I probably would have broken down and hid in someone else's arms for a while. That I would have wanted someone to hold me and tell me it was all going to be all right. I wasn't giving her an excuse, I just acknowledged how hard it is.
I did also follow up with the fact, that not falling into someone else's arms was the best thing for me. It helped me find strength in myself vs others. That I am glad I didn't because I would just become dependent on someone else.
So, yes. I broke a bunch of the rules yesterday. For the first time W was open about some of her feelings, and expressed why she was angry (a little bit) vs just being angry about something.
We actually had a dialogue about a couple things, which for her is epic. She normally just bottles stuff up and expresses anger.
Now I am going to go back to the rules. I am not going to pursue. I am going to be kind and compassionate, though aside from transporting her bunny with me and my son to Tx I am not going to go out of my way to do anything for her.
Sandi2 nailed it. She doesn't want me to do anything, she is avoiding me. I agree she does feel pursued. I am just going to continue taking care of my boy and myself. That's all I can do.
Journaling
I'm having one of those no hope days. I have my son with me again, so I don't let him see me down.
I gave 30 days notice on the house that we rented (well, I've been living her without her since February, and officially since May. I'm moving the kids out to Austin where she moved to.
I have to say, this is shaking me to my core. In one of the co-dependancy books the author talks about "in-between times" My job changed (company got acquired) the day that W left and never came back. My W has been gone, and I'm processing through that, I'm losing my home of the past 3 years and having to find a new place in a new town.
I'm scared. Very fundamentally, I'm scared. I wish that I could believe that this world was a safe place. I wish I could believe it will all work out. But lets face it. It hasn't been working out so swell for us so far.
I am losing patience, I am losing hope. There have been minor positive changes in our communication, but ever since the OM heated up she has been angry. I wish I could see the light at the end of the tunnel. I know when I got married, I said for better or worse, sicker or poorer till death do us part. But I struggle being the only one holding onto those vows. I never thought that working towards reconciliation would feel more alone then being alone.
Heh Big Mac. You'll get through this. I know those 'no hope' days. Had a breakdown last week. But you'll get through this. Detach. Act as if even though you're angry and hurting. You can do it my friend!!!
Bashy,
The detaching is weird. I find that anger and frustration comes up from unexpected places. Especially when I look at my S8. He misses his mom so bad. He has seen her less times then you can count on two hands since Feb, and then since May hasn't seen her at all.
I'm sitting in the household that we built, our entire adult lives spent creating and raising a family, theoretically building something that will last the ages.
And yes, I am lonely, so lonely. I am doing the "right" thing and being a good dad. I am there for my S8. I have not abandoned him. He gets sooo sad when both of us are gone. And he is sooo happy when I am here.
Earlier in the separation the W had taken the kids away (her D16 that we both raised since she was 1 and our S8). It broke me further then I was already broken. D16 is so angry at me (I think she's been talking to her mom) she just wants to stay with the grandparents. And frankly, I don't have the energy to deal with the never ending D16 drama (she is sooo her mothers daughter).
So I am sitting her, without a support system (I don't even have day care....) Trying to be the best dad I can be for a lost and broken little boy (I fall into that category too). I am trying to take time for myself too. I figure when the kids get to Austin, and I can finally find a place things will be easier for me. The W and I can start splitting parenting responsibilities (vs me and the in laws who are a 250 mile round trip away).
So yes, I am in a dark place. My W is in R with another man. I am left alone to clean up the mess of our past life, and try to craft something of a sustainable future for me and the kids.
So yeah, I'm in a dark place. I'm a little scared. Hell, I'm a lot scared, and many times a lot alone. I'm still in a much better place mentally then I was a couple weeks ago, and in a much better place then I was a couple months ago. But I still find myself crying... I still find myself feeling.
I wish I hated her, I wish I didn't love her, I wish I couldn't find it within myself to forgive her. This would be so much easier.
Contact log
This morning, I get looped into a conversation on twitter scheduling a poker game. I have to give my standard reply "W and I are separated, we have been best friends for 14 years, and I hope to be best friends for the next 14"
W then follows up with a text to me asking a favor, for me to bring some of her jewelry, clothes and camera's with me when I drive the car out this week. I reply to her that I don't think there will be space. (setting boundaries, and not giving gifts .. thanks Sandi2)
A couple hours later she calls me while I am at the store, asking me to rent a room in the house next door (the place she has been renting from). I told her I would think about it, but I think I want something a bit closer to downtown and then chit chatted about the bunny and trip. Then told her I had to go and hung up.
So, question. My gut feel is that I don't want to see her every day. But then the room is closer to the kids. I was thinking about renting it for a couple weeks, just so I don't have to worry about having a room in town, and then bouncing to a better place when I get it lined up.
Thoughts? Is this her wanting me to close, controlling me? testing boundaries? Actually being nice?
Any thoughts on renting a room in the house next door? My gut feel is that I need the boundaries, although it does get me a place to live in Austin for the first month until I can find my permanent place.
Any thoughts on renting a room in the house next door?
It would be a big mistake, IMO.
Thanks Sandi2, I really appreciate your guidance. (I don't trust my brain to steer when my heart is involved).
Curious, what is the reasoning.
My reasons that I come up with
1. She has me under lock and key
2. I get locked into the "friend" zone
3. My boundaries are being violated
4. I have not space to retreat to if I feel like I am slipping
5. I have to see her every day, hard to detach
6. I am sleeping literally in the bed that she slept in for months when she left me (and possibly the OM)
Anything i'm missing?
Hi BigMac, there is something about a WAW who wants to be close to you. My W recently moved 10 miles closer to me, and that is close enough (she is still 15 miles away from me.)
Can you imagine if she brought another man to her place, and you have to see that? If you think that you are emotional now, just imagine the pain that would cause. Give her space, stop talking so much to her. And detach, detach, detach. My 2 cents worth. Good luck
I'm with everyone here, I don't want to take the room. It would kill me to see her every day.
I think she has plans to loop me into a "kept man" position similar to a friends Ex that lives in the same neighborhood. While I am happy to be friendly, I want to be able to maintain my own life. It would suck to get stuck watching S8 while she stays overnight at the OM's house.
Yeah, that would suck. I think living downtown would be much more fun
So, I made the drive out to tx with S8 and w's bunny.
When I get here, she is late, crushing my little boys heart. He was just saying how he can't count on her to do anything, and how she loves him less because he is not a baby.
We didn't have the best interaction then. I know she is full of guilt. But holy hell, please stop hurting our son.
Journaling,
I'm in one of those dark times when it is hard to push through. My life is in between. I am packing our house up next week, with no where to live yet in the new town.
I am taking Sandi2's advice and avoiding renting the room in the neighborhood with a 10 foot pole. The emotional turmoil from going out there last night was to huge. I think this is the 3rd time I've seen her in 4 months now. It hurts much less, but wow my emotions deep inside go crazy.
Especially when she isn't being a good mom. It just kills me. And all she does is lie and get defensive
Of course, times just get harder. She is going to come to California to help consolidate the house. I wish I was stronger.
Contact report.
The W, S8 and I had ice cream yesterday. It was after the first day and night of W and S8 being together in a couple months. W had broken her toe, and was in a bit of pain, but it was cordial.
I felt like she didn't want to be there, but S8 had a great time. If anything she was putting in an effort to coparent. That in itself made me very happy.
Baby steps right?
I felt like she didn't want to be there
Mac, you can't read her mind. Why are you still trying to?
If W wants to destroy relationship with S8, that is unfortunate, but her decision. You can't control that.
But you can control being there for S8 and picking up the slack. And that may start with picking a S8-friendly place to live.
Thanks Nettles,
I'm having a really hard time. Change in Jobs (company got acquired), change in marital situation, moving. Combine that with s8 telling me that his mom (w) loves him less because he isn't a baby anymore just crushed me. Absolutely crushed me.
It [censored] and is horrible, but it is her choice. She'll have to live with it for the rest of her life.
You might want to see Nicole from the list I gave you. She can help you with how to handle S8. Time to put your pain aside and do whatever you can for S8. Detach for him.
Glad you decided not to move next door. Beside you seeing everything going on over there, she would be watching your place, too!
You are right, she would take advantage of you being so handy. It would be as if trying to live under the sane roof.
It is hard to explain the WAW. Her mind is so preoccupied with the A/OM until it consumes every area of her life. She is no longer the same person. I think I should warn you that when she finally comes out of this, she may not remember things correctly. Abd how could she? She is stumbling around in this bazaar new mindset that has no logic, takes no responsibility, is emotionally unbalanced, abd suffers severe memory loss of the true history with her H.
Nettles. The councelor you recommended is on maternity leave. I lined up another one for this Friday. Hopefully it can help
Sandi2. I'm actually having to rent that room (it's in the same neighborhood, not next door) for a week or so, I still don't have a place to live in TX. Luckily I travel a bunch for work, so I will be gone most of September.
Another complication, W says she is coming to help consolidate the house, and move stuff over this next week. This will mean that will be both staying in the house, boxing stuff up, and then she I think will be loading it off to Austin.
I will basically be down to a couple items and a suitcase to live of. Honestly I don't trust that she'll come through with actually getting her stuff. But that is another story in and off itself.
So, I'm not grounded. A bit scared honestly. But trying to stay present and make it through these "in between times"
A bit scared honestly. But trying to stay present and make it through these "in between times"
Sometimes that's all you can do.
Labug
You nailed it. Being present is the one thing that I can control. For example, this week I'm up in Vail speaking at a conference. I'm with a bunch of friends, I have my son with me. There are great activities that are funded through the conference organizers.
Earlier this weekend we were horseback riding. Something that is magical and amazing, climbing vail ridge through the Aspens. I found myself getting sucked into my fear, my thoughts, my self doubt, and not intensely enjoying the fact that I am surrounded by amazing people and doing amazing things.
I wasn't Present. I was wallowing in my own guilt, and self loathing. I was letting my fear of the future interfere with enjoying how awesome today is.
Yesterday afternoon I was so done with that. I had a talk with a friend of mine here that new be before and after W left. She had a great perspective. While I had my fair share of the blame before W left, I have been the only one working on myself. I have been the only one there for the kids. BigMac2.0 is a good person, a person who improves himself. BigMac2.0 is a good person who doesn't need to be held back by the guilt of the past. BigMac2.0 is doing everything he can to be strong in the future. BigMac2.0 should be proud of who he is becoming.
I game my friend the biggest hug (she and her husband took me in for the first couple weeks after the separation where I was totally destroyed. That night (last night) I was sitting with some of the top minds in my industry actually being me again. Enjoying great company, and smiling and laughing. It was great.
I need more of this. I can't wait until my life is more settled (I have a place to call home, something that resembles normalcy). I can't wait till this is the rule, not the exception
Make it happen, Big Mac. You have the power.
I'm trying. Trust me, I'm trying with all my might
So, contact update,
W txt'd me monday night. Apparently when I saw her last week I gave her a cold. I did a little banter, and apologized for getting her sick.
I'll see her tonight (she is supposed to pick me and S8 from the airport). Fingers crossed that I haven't gotten her that sick (we just hugged).
This next week (i'm hoping she makes it out on Saturday) she is supposed to fly to our old home and help pack stuff up, and move most of our stuff into her new place.
I'm firmly in the "in-between" times. It's scary, i'm trying to stick with my 180's (though I haven't been sleeping at all since she left). While I am not looking forward to leaving the home we built behind, I can see somewhere on the horizon the possibility of starting to GAL again. Fingers crossed.
Contact update
Made it into Austin, W picked me and S8 from the airport. Apparently the cold that she caught from me is on pretty strong. She was sick as a dog.
She was pretty nice to me, wasn't pulling back from contact. I smiled, was funny, was interested in what she was talking about.
She did drop the OM's name saying he hurt her rib when he hugged her, and told S8 that OM wasn't happy that her cat that she is keeping at his place has flea's.
One thing that was weird, is that in the past I would just flush with emotion when I heard his name, or saw her mentioning him. Now, I just heard it and continued with the conversation.
When I landed, I mentioned that I needed to find a room. She offered to have me sleep in the same house as her (on the air mattress in the room next to hers).
I thought about it for a bit, then told her that while I appreciated it, that I wanted to get a regular bed, and rented a hotel room down the road. (only accept some offers right .. sandi's rules).
One other thing, since I am just going to have a small room, W offered to let me use some closet space in her place. I am trying to keep a distance, but at what point is she trying to let me in, vs trying to keep me close and under control? How do I tell the difference? I have been doing the LRT a couple months now... could it be working?
I did do something sweet though, she was really really sick and didn't have any muscinex, so I went down to the drug store and got some for her. I'm not sure if that is supplicating, but that was something that I would normally do to take care of my W. I hope I didn't screw it up.
After I dropped that stuff off I went out with some friends and watched Indiana Jones in the park, and then hung out. Operation GAL in the new town in full effect.
BigMac ... Sounds like you have a few positives there!! As far as the muscinex, I would have done the same, its just compassion and not something I would see as pursuing ... something maybe deep down in her she can take as a token of you caring. Just my .02
I hope they are. I do worry though. I am sure the OM and people around her are poisoning her mind.
I don't know is this is normal, but it seems my world is consumed by fear of divorce, and the impact it will have on me and the kids.
It's very normal, BigMac. I am consumed by those same fears.
What I've been doing to cope is to already assume divorce. For example, start googling some articles on how to raise kids after a divorce. Once you accept that reality and get a handle on the logical and tactical things you can do to make the best of life post-divorce, then you set your mind to be better prepared for the worst case scenario.
Prepare for the worst. Hope for the best.
Thanks Mindsin.
I'm trying. I'm trying so hard. It is just killing me though
Journaling
I'm back at the old house, getting stuff ready for landlord to show it, and packing a bunch of stuff alone. That is the hardest part of this entire process, the being alone. Hopefully once I get to the new town, I can stop being alone, stop having to constantly travel. Just be somewhere and be me.
BM yeah I can relate to the alone thing, one of the issues my IC is trying to help me with .. forcing myself to get out and be social ... I would honestly rather just stay in the room I rented and watch a movie by myself .... but thats not helping me be better. Even after outings .. I come home and its just me ... the silence is deafening. I have learned to accept it .. and have started to enjoy my own company, I guess over time all I can tell you is it gets easier ... I am going on close to a year now.
Damn. You're right CaliGuy. It's beer o'clock.
People came by today looking at the rental I'm in. I'm picking up boxes to start packing up alone.
Nothing like two of the top stressors in life stacked on each other. I sometimes think that I'm crazy for feeling sad. But I guess these waves are normal in these situations.
For me the biggest challenge has been no sense of normalcy. I am at the house for the first time in a week and a half.
I showered in my own shower (for a week at least), with my own shampoo and conditioner (my beard has been pretty rough this past week).
I went to the post office, paid some bills (no martyring, practicing self care). I threw some pork in the crock pot when I got home last night, and went to the grocery store and shopped for some vegetables.
I had to have one quick call for work, then I watched some TV and took a short nap. I have been pushing so hard, with getting sick, driving the car and the W's bunny across america, Vail for 5 days and then Tx for 2.
Finally, for a short time, I'm in a "safe place" where I can feel grounded. I hope when I get to Tx I feel this grounded. I want to feel like I am at home.
But for now, I am packing a house up alone. The worries and stresses of life dominating my focus. Just trying to get my mind off the hard stuff for little time, to be refreshed.
Luckily I hear my S8 giggling in the background. Thank god for his laughter, it is amazing to hear.
Hey Bic Mac, well I can tell you this. My WAW dropped the bomb on me the end of April in the apartment we lived in for 17 years. So once she moved out, and I was left alone in there...with blank walls, boxes everwhere, stuff disassembled, etc...it was torture. But because our lease wasn't up until the end of June I had to stay there for two months...and all of this was fresh to me back then. Now at least nothing phases me...I figure it can't get any worse than it is now. But I can relate. It's almost symbolic how the home we built together was being disassembled. It was awful having to live there.
Now that I've been in my own place for a little over a month...I will say it is a bit easier but it still hurts. The memories don't stay in the dwelling, they come with you. Of course my WAW left me everything...from forks to all the furniture and everything in between. So there's memories all over the place. Even worse, she's actually been here a few times and spent the night here a few times. In a way I draw some sort of weird comfort from that though. I guess that's just what a broken-hearted person does, seek comfort in anything.
So I don't want you to think it's smooth sailing once you're away from the marital home...there's still many nights I cry myself to sleep. However it is a bit easier because you do develop your own routines and things...it's just hard to do them when every damn things you see, smell, and hear everyday reminds you of WAW. Of course this is still new to me though too, only just over a months here so I'm sure it will keep getting easier. Hang tough my friend, you are not alone in your heartbreak and gut-wrenching sorrow.
ItHurts - Thanks, it's nice to know that I'm not alone (and I'm sending positive thoughts your way). It looks like almost all of "our" stuff is going to her new place. I'll be renting a bed nearby, and hopefully finding a small house to rent in a month or two.
I'll be pretty much starting over fresh, with nothing of my own (maybe a comforter and pillows). The house we built will be in her new house, with the kids.
Thats another thing that has me a bit off. I've been a single dad since Feb. I've spent so much time with S8. He is my best little buddy. We do everything together, and he is a great little guy. It is going to be weird not having him around ALL the time. Though I am sure that W will have no problem with me coming over at night to throw the frisbee or football with him, or letting him come over to play xbox.
So, the future is up in the air. But I do have something to look forward to (throwing the football with S8, and practicing volleyball with D16).
Now, I am off to my todo list. Write some more, read a bit. Eat a good breakfast and then continue packing up.
Contact log
Had to hunt the W down today to get info on what day she is flying back in to help pack and move.
Covered a couple things, empathized about her being stuck doing reports instead of being at the hackathon that she wanted too.
She hasn't booked a flight back yet, and seems to be more focused on her self (selfish streak is strong in this one). I can see how she feels this way though. She spent 14 years "taking care of others" (though the last couple years it was the other way around... though I don't think she will see this for a while).
We talked a little about work, it is funny she commented how she doesn't make as much as me (I've been in my field for 17 years, and this is her first actual job in the industry). I told her to give it time, and she will do just fine.
She is still bouncing around trying to get her place nailed down. Apparently she won't leave until getting the keys (instead of getting the keys when she shows up)..
I get the feeling that she is living moment by moment lately, balanced on the tip of exhaustion and burn out at work. She has been depressed and burnt out like this since the end of her school in March. I wish I could do something to help her, but she has done this one to her self. Me rescuing won't help her one bit.
The call ended fine, I wished her a great day, and she replied with the same. It's nice to be at least cordial in our responses. That is an improvement from a month or two ago.
I was just going through paperwork cleaning my office (packing).
I came across some interesting stuff which sets a timeline
2010 - 100 lbs dropped (both of us)
Jan 2011 - Lazy Eye fixed.
May 2011 - Boob job
June 2011 - I change jobs to a high stress high travel job
Jan 2012 - Knee issue, can't run anymore
Aug 2012 - Kidney failure (single kidney)
Jan 2013 - Partial recovery from kidney issue
Feb 2013 - my best friend falls in love with W, she denies anything happened (EA in my opinion)
Fall 2013 - Job hunt, keeps getting to final interviews and turned down
Nov 2013 - Trip to HK and Vietnam, she is completely stressed the entire time
Feb 2014 - W has to move to SF (45 min away) for school
March 2014 - Something snaps (big depression at school)
April 2014 - Gets new job, never comes back
May 2014 - Separation
Basically my low self esteem wife, that I loved dearly (but didn't know how to show love). Went through so many life changes, while I was stressed, depressed an away. I wish I would have known better, and been there for her. Changed myself earlier.
It's funny how hindsight is 20/20
Yeah ... Had that discussion today with WAW about hindsight, how I would do so much differently now that my own fog has been lifted ... reading the DB book I do think I hit a point where she has seen I have gone through an awakening without me verbally telling her so
Its good you reflect back, it will help you cope with how you got here .... rather than that dazed look we all had when we swore that a Semi Truck just rolled through our living rooms
Keep at it ... Pray her fog lifts and she can see that good version of you that you are now working on!
Journalling -
More introspection as I await the WAW to fly back tomorrow to pack up her stuff.
In the past I was
Codependant
Controlling
High Anxiety
Needy
Insecure
Mean / Passive agressive
Not the best dad.
I didn't care about her needs, only my own
I could only find fault in her, not me
Over the past months she has been gone, I have changed. I hope she is ready to see it.
Hey Big Mac, it is a big step to show your WAW your changes and she will notice them in time if she hasn't already. My WAW has seen all of mine now, everything from my appearance, to my changed behaviors, to the rekindled passion she thought long dead.
However as much as we are inclined to make these changes to "get our WAW's back," as many will tell you, you have to make the changes for you yourself...they need to be something you do for you and your life, not just to get back your WAW, that happens on its own and is part of it, but shouldn't be the purpose. That is my only saving grace in my sitch, that I actually have a life without WAW now. People were saying "fake it til you make it" and that really does work. Of course I am sad and heartbroken, just as you are, but making changes for yourself as DB'ing helps you do really does make the difference...it's like a safety net when things go wrong with WAW, you have your own life without her to fall back on. Not only that, but you don't want to bring your problems into a possible new relationship with someone else either...you don't want history to repeat itself. That's another reason to really work on yourself. I try to whenever I can and if I backslide you just dust yourself off and carry on.
Thanks ItHurts.
She has been 1800 miles away, I'm not sure she even has the opportunity to notice. At the start of this, I was changing for her. But through it, well.... I have been alone three months now. I have been broken, started to rebuild myself, I've been there for the kids as much as I can, and I've been there for myself.
I've started living again, though bouts of fear and anxiety still overwhelm me at times. I'm down about 15 lbs (I wish I was down more, but considering all the stress and travel... I'm good with that). I've cut out caffeine, hard liquor (I rarely drink even a beer anymore).
The most important thing, I got treatment for some Trauma issues I had as a child, and then as a Marine. I'm 1000 times calmer now. Hell, I am handling separation (and the fear of divorce), job change (company got acquired), and moving without breaking down.
In the past if I was in this situation I would have an anxiety attack and just freak.
And now, I am picking up the W a the airport tomorrow at 10:30. She is coming over to pack stuff and drive a uhaul across America to Tx. I am hopeful that we can continue to improve our relations, though fearful that the OM I believe is in the picture may be top of her mind.
My hope is that she is using him as a buffer, a temporary toy to keep her busy. One of our friends called him a "Beta". Easily pushed around, not strong willed, not driven. Basically the opposite of me. I hope that when she see's me strong that it will trigger something in her.... hoping...
Well it's funny how you closed out that post Big Mac because my WAW, when she confessed to the entire ordeal with OM when she was here for two days...she did mention something about the OM being the complete opposite of me...and that she somehow craved that at the time. So maybe it's no coincidence that your WAW's OM is the opposite of you. Just a guess on my part and not based in fact. Yeah it is hard for WAW to see your changes when she is far away. I was fortunate that my WAW kept contacting me and making "pop in" appearances after she moved out. However you are with your WAW now so perhaps she will get an eyeful of your changes today! Good luck and keep your chin up...you are not alone as I keep telling you. The pain is awful, I know, almost unbearable at times...but hang in there.
Update after 2 days with the WAW.
I am on my best behavior, being calm and kind. This is the first time she has seen me for any length of time in months.
I did slip while driving with her and talk about R. She says how happy she is, and how low stress her life is (I have had the kids, every bill, etc. She has her new job which is pretty stressful and her OM).
I am being kind and compassionate, and we are teaming up to move stuff.
We got into a bit of R talk, and she basically said she hasn't talked to me at all this summer and is so happy. I know they say to not listen to anything she says, and 50% of what she does. But it still hurts to hear that she isn't interested in even thinking of me, or working on anything (when she first left, we were supposed to start therapy 30 days after a break... then OM came...)
So, here I am. I gave everything up for her and the kids. I am trying to hold it together... Luckily I know to walk outside if I am feeling emotional, phone a friend, etc.
A couple interesting things though
1. Last night she fell asleep in our bed for a time (after saying that she was going to sleep in D16's room). She did wake up around midnight and move into her room which woke me up. I got up and told her sweet dreams.
2. This morning I told W that I was going to the local breakfast place, and that she could come if she wanted. She agreed, and we had good conversation. An interesting thing that I noticed as I was walking out - She had already had a bowl of cereal. I think she went for my company
.
3. We are having to have conversations around division of stuff. I am being pretty cool about letting her take whatever she wants. The area's that there were conflicts around we were able to agree to share, or let the other borrow.
I like this new interaction, where we are being kind to each other. I wish we would have been like this before the split.
Also, the conversation came up about her going cold turkey on Antidepressants and ADHD meds 2 weeks into school. This event triggered a breakdown for me, as she completely changed. I had no clue what happened. I did tell her that I wish I would have known. I would have had more empathy.
She blames me for having to take Antidepressants, she may be right.
Either way, each day is a new day. I'm afraid that her new life is so great that with me in the same town, along with the kids there that I am going to get the blame for everything getting stressful again. But, all we can do is live in the present.
On a positive note, I got a call from one of the leaders at work. I had been really worried that my absence from work was going to affect my career (it did affect one promotion already). Apparently though someone higher (I'm actually starting to get my faith back again) is looking out for me.
It looks like I may be chairing a committee at work for a massive transition. This is a huge thing for me, and while not an immediate promotion, it provides the opportunity to transform engineering across a 23,000 person company. Before some of my life changes from this horrible separation I don't think I would have been mentally ready.
I'm not perfectly sure I am ready right now. But I am working in the right direction.
Fingers crossed that the WAW doesn't do anything crazy after the move. I'm worried that it will take me down.
Well, i'm out her in Texas now. Still have to go back to the old house and pack a few more things
... yet another 2,000 bucks to spend moving her stuff.
My frustration levels are high. She only see's me as a bank account to fund her new life. Now that she has the kids, and most of her stuff. Well, she has what she wants. (not me)
Funny,
I just flipped through a folder I had named "happy couple pictures" I noticed that they were all from over a year ago...
So, update for everyone.
I am in Austin now. The W is her too. Her life (at least financially) is a train wreck.
She is dealing with a huge amount of anxiety, and having attacks. It is weird, for this entire time, I thought I was the crazy one. Maybe I was, but I've spent so much time working on me so far, that I am not right now.
She has progressed down to Divorce paperwork. So, DB'ing didn't do any good so far, but hey what is the hurt of keeping up the work.
Myself, after seeing a divorce petition I felt kind of free. I was sooo afraid of that moment, that when it came.. well I was numb to the pain and the fear.
I can honestly say that I have been doing everything I possibly can to save my marriage, and she has done absolutely nothing. Even if our marriage doesn't work out at all I can look back at my own self through this summer and be proud.
Heh big mac. I've been following your thread for a while now and honestly my friend you are doing brilliantly well. Your focus and determination is to be congratulated. Btw remember, it's a marathon and not a sprint so even though you are were u are right now with W it sounds like her life isn't to great after all, whereas you are doing well. Trust me, she will have noticed that!! Keep strong!!
I hope she notices.
I see a pattern here. She basically ran out of money, maxed out her cards, has kids in her life instead of just living a single care free life.
So, every time there is a casual interaction there is something she "needs". And I keep pushing back. I'm tired of the financial extortion. I'm tired of the escalation of control talk to "lawyer up".
So, i'm trying to nip that crap in the butt. I guess being a bit firmer with her that I have had to be when she was on her "summer vacation".
On the plus side, I feel really really really detached right now. I'm in a new town, meeting new friends, and really liking it.
Is it bad that life is better without her in it?
Contact update,
W txt'd me today, telling me that S8 wanted me to see her new cat. Saying I could come over if I wasn't passive aggressive or argumentative.
So, when I stand up for my boundaries. When I remind her that she is a big girl, and responsible for her own decisions and don't just throw money at her she thinks I'm being argumentative.
I've spent an ungodly amount of money. I've put my career on hold, I've moved across the country just so the kids can have two parents.
Am I being passive aggressive by saying I need to think about an expenditure?
Challenging interaction
The WAW got her first taste of friends ostracizing her for her behaviors. Of course she blamed it on me. I had to explain to her that most of our friends disagree with her behavior.
She is starting to get the point that people in our community don't agree with her behavior. And that there are consequences to her actions.
Of course this is "all my fault"....
Ok, need some advice.
Got in a txt conversation with the WAW. I may be reading into something, but I think that the affair with the OM has fizzled. She got a place down far away from him, and has had the kids so she can't stay over.
She mentioned in a txt conversation that "she has no one". She also mentioned that I have been going out and getting a life, and that she has none.
So, question to everyone. What is the protocol when the relationship with the OM fizzles?
Keep doing what you are doing. She has to come to you and WANT to work on the relationship. You cannot go running to her.
Thanks Pilot,
I'm trying to be strong and consistent. It has been only a week since seeing her for a couple days packing up the house. The interactions this week have been tumultuous to say the least. I am getting the full brunt of her emotions. I have been strong. I have been a good dad, a good person.
And I went completely dark labor day weekend and just was me.
I do like that she has been seeing me get a life, and feels that she isn't getting a life. I do have a coaching session scheduled tomorrow, hopefully I can pick the coaches brain even more.
I keep oscillating back and forth, but maybe I have a shred of hope.. or maybe its all going to hell in a handbasket.. who knows.
It's been over a week since I last posted.
Current status is that the W is more angry then ever. Me and the kids moving into the same town as her, and her taking the kids part time is really amping up her stress levels.
Also, with the kids around it is has put a slight hamper on her ability to interact with the OM.
Every time she interacts with me it is with extreme anger, with minor exceptions. I honestly have no clue what the hell is going on in her mind.
The lies continue, about random stuff. I will always love her, but she is insane. I don't see how people stick this out for years. It wears on my soul and on the kids health.
So, question to everyone. What is the protocol when the relationship with the OM fizzles?
You continue doing what you have been doing. Just b/c the A ends does not mean she wants to go back to you. But it is a necessary step in that direction.
Try this on for size. When you see her extremely angry and lashing out how your life is great and hers isn't .........it's actually a positive sign. Her life is not going as she imagined it would if she left the M. She is tasting reality, and she wants to spit it out!
Step One: End Affair
Step Two: Anger
Step Three: Going Through Withdrawal (depending whether or not she gets through withdrawal without contacting OM again will decide if she moves to next step)
Step Four: Depression
She will have her own personal "stuff" to work through. Hopefully, at some point, she will begin to pull out of the fog and make logical decisions.
Thanks for that Sandi2 I get so freaking confused.
I am the owner of Divorce paperwork as of a coupe weeks ago, and she maxed out all of her credit cards (so she says). I did see the OM at her house, so I'm not sure if it ended, but I know for sure that she isn't staying over at his house every night.
And apparently from what I hear from friends is that he doesn't want to be involved with the kids and doesn't have a habit of staying in relationships long.
It may have ended and then they are re-engaging, I am not exactly sure. I do know for sure that she is acting completely vile towards me right now. And seems to be very angry at me all the time.
BigMac,
I am not completely caught up on your sitch, but I believe from what I read somewhere it is possible your W could be lashing at out you because her OM is noth working out. If in fact that is the case. Regardless, just keep your chin up and keep being your awesome self. Always try to be that person she fell in love with. It will be hard for her to hate that version of you.
Keep up the good work!
Thanks Pilot.
To be completely honest, it has been super hard to be that person. For the past 4 months she has been gone, out of my life.
It took a while, but I was able to detach, create a support system and move on with my life.
The past month or so has been a whirlwind of moving, paperwork, having to have increased contact with her. Honestly it threw me in to an emotional whirlwind. As I finally get my own place again (getting keys to the ground floor of a 100 year old victorian home downtown on Sunday), get settled into my new surroundings and town I'm starting to find myself again.
Frankly, I like it more when she is in her own space creating her own messes. When I get lumped into it my body gets into this fight or flight response and I get dragged into her crazy reactions.
Loving getting on with my own life, maybe one day she'll come out of her fog, though at this point I really doubt it.
Regarding the OM. They work together in a pretty small company. Knowing her she will pull the siren card to continue to re-engage. Knowing her, and other people have confirmed, she is terribly afraid of being alone. So I think the OM will be in the picture in some fashion for a while (at least as a FWB)
I would not even try to make assumptions regarding OM and how he may or may not be a part of your W's future. That is just going to eat at you and cause you heartache for no reason.
Believe me, if you two have had a long break and are just now having increased contact, she is most likely having the same emotional whirlwinds.
Pilot, thanks for the perspective.
What is weird, after meeting the OM in person for the first time, and seeing how much of a mousey loser he is. I see that she just found someone to stop her from being lonely. It has really helped me to detach.
Though I will say, that many times I feel that since she is the one who left, she is the one who made the choice to destroy our marriage that she isn't feeling anything.
After seeing her in person, I see that she is a hot mess. Mood swings, Anger, having to actually take care of the kids, herself, and a job is turning out to be to much.
Her life with me was a really good life. She has to hate that I'm starting to thrive without her.
What is weird, after meeting the OM in person for the first time, and seeing how much of a mousey loser he is. I see that she just found someone to stop her from being lonely. It has really helped me to detach.
Just try not to discount him too much. Remember, SOMETHING about him drew her to him. Something she was missing from you. Figure it out, and you CAN be the better choice.
Pilot -
He is a recruiter at the "startup" that the W went to work for. He was the guy, in the party town showing her all the fun things. He embodied the culture of the startup and "rescued her" helping her through the process to get a job. He was witty and had good banter, and was there.
I can see the game that was played quite clearly. She was extra flirty and played the siren card pretty hard. And also was tired of people identifying her as my wife, and wanted to make a name for herself (low self esteem + over compensating ego).
Now I am the guy with the place downtown. I am the guy doing all the fun stuff. She commented a couple weeks ago that she "has done nothing" in the new town.... and that I am out doing everything.
The reality is she has been hanging out in the luxury malls, running up her credit cards and then sleeping over at losers place. She hasn't experienced anything in this new town.
What was missing from me was that I was super depressed. I had lost my mojo (my self confidence) and absolutely was not attractive mentally.
That has passed. What is crazy, is that even though life is super stressful right now, I am happier now then I was before she left.....
Case in point,
I'm in San Francisco for work this week. It is a vibrant city with great night life. I pinged an old friend of mine to meet up for late afternoon coffee. We ended up ringing some more friends moving down to a wine bar, then to an amazing little restaurant. Had great conversation, met some new people, and had a great time.
This was the me before I let my W intermesh herself into my independent life. Once she got in her mental games and manipulation separated me from my friends and I started to believe that I had low self worth.
Now I'm back. I'm charming, approachable, connected and fun. I'm living life in the best way that I can.
Divorce
Death in the family
Job change
Move
I have all of those going on right now. And I'm not cracking.
I'm back. Life can be rough sometimes, but hey. I'm a survivor.
Here is an update for everyone
I am in my new place in Tx, she has almost everything from the house, I am sleeping on an air mattress until I can get new furniture. This is the great restart in my life.. it's funny how she leaves, abandons me and the kids. Yet I am the one who has to (or gets to) restart.
The first day I am in my place the WAW was away for work, she text's me asking if I could send her wedding ring to the jeweler so she can get it remade into something new.
This hit me like a 2x4 to the head. Every time I detach, something like this happens. It's almost as if she is trying to screw with me on purpose. Thankfully pretty soon I get to grab my stuff out of her garage and put some more distance between us.
I wish this process was easier, its as if we are going through the separation process 4-5 months in.