Links to prior threads...
Part II,
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...519#Post2464519Part I,
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...465#Post2451465Saw W and kids off at the airport this morning. House seems empty without them already. Reminding myself how fortunate I am that this is merely a week-long vacation for them, given that just a couple of months ago W was saying she was moving out. For all I know she's still planning to, but she hasn't left yet so... Where are we now? W has said she wanted stay in the house while she got accustomed to the new me and while she worked on some things herself, to see if either would lead to a change of her heart/mind.
I've definitely seeing some positive signs... some displays of affection here and there, occasional comments that pertain to us still being together in the future. W has definitely been running hot/cold (actually, more like warm/cold but warm is just fine right now!), so I've been learning to accept what she gives when she's warm and reciprocate, and to give her all the space she seems to want/need when she's cold. We've been having some really good times going out together and here at home with friends/neighbors, which has been a big 180 in our relationship.
I hadn't talked about it in the days leading up to their trip, but I did tell her last night when we were in bed that I was going to miss her a ton when she and the kids were gone. She said she was going to miss me too, and then curled up next to me and later asked me to massage her to sleep. This morning I saw her and the kids off at the terminal curb, where we hugged and kissed and told each other "I love you". We've said that a couple of times in the past week... first time in months. Just going to take it at face value though...a good sign, but not one that means she's changed her mind or that I can start resting on my laurels...not by a long shot.
In addition to the stuff I'm doing to keep myself busy while she and the kids are gone, I think one of my goals for the week should be to not be the one to contact W but rather to let her be the one to contact me if she wants to while they're gone. Part of me already wants to text and see how the flight went and how everyone is doing (particularly as this was the kids' first time flying), but I figure if she wants to hear from me she won't hesitate to get in touch, and I know she'll encourage the kids to call me if they start missing me or getting homesick at any point, so I'm guessing the best thing I can do is lay low and focus on myself here at home.
Can't say I'm not hoping that this week apart will give her an opportunity to miss me...
You seem to be doing well and handled yourself well for the send off. Keep it up. I would definitely let her do the contacting. She will miss you, so let her be the one to reach out.
Good luck!
Thanks! I appreciate the good vibes. I've definitely had some slip-ups and setbacks, but overall I think I've been doing pretty well... definitely positive changes in my life are evident even if in the end W doesn't change her mind and I can't save our marriage.
I'm slowly arriving at a place where I'm no longer concerned too much about myself; much more concerned about how the kids would handle things... On good days I feel pretty strong and know that despite some dark days I would ultimately be ok if W and I can't make this work. But I sure as heck wouldn't want to put the kids through the wringer. Hoping as long as I keep keeping-on it won't come to that.
^^^I would have guessed that to be a bikini top.
Got a brief phone call from W when their plane landed in the evening yesterday. Kept it short and sweet. Asked how the kids handled their first flight (they loved it!) and how long of a drive until they reached the "luxury cabin" where they're staying (a two to three hour drive on top of the flight they just took, ugh!). W said she'd have the kids call around bedtime and we left it that, ending with "I'll talk to you later". Got a few texts from W during their drive, with pics of the mountains/scenery.
Didn't hear from W or the kids later that night, but I'm assuming with the jet lag/time difference, a super long day, and all the hustle and bustle involved with having all the relatives around, everyone was probably pretty wiped out and/or caught up in the fun of having so much of the family together in one place, so I'm not taking it personally. I of course always want to hear from the kids, but I'm just going to give W and them all the time and space to have fun and do their thing while I'm at home doing mine.
I've been thinking that although W has initiated some affection here and there, the couple of times we've said "I love you" to each other in the last two weeks it's been initiated by me. Thinking about DBing and the babysteps/small signs of positive change, I think I should lay off saying "I love you" and just continue to let my actions speak for themselves. W knows I love her, and I think a positive sign for me will be her initiating saying it to me.
Don't overthink
Have no expectations.
Don't take anything personally.
Try to do that while she's away and see if it makes a difference in you.
Don't overthink
Have no expectations.
Don't take anything personally.
Try to do that while she's away and see if it makes a difference in you.
Once again...words to live by.
One thing I've noticed I do when I'm not "minding my mind" so to speak, is that I will think along the lines of "Well, if W loved me she would _______ " or "If W wanted to be with me she would _______". Then I fill in those blanks with the things
I would do or say to let someone know I loved and wanted to be with them, without taking into account that those aren't necessarily the same things W would do to show those feelings. And what's more, they can just as easily be things about which I've never said "Hey, these are the things that I like and that I take as signs of your love/desire to be with me." There's just this inaccurate assumption along the lines of "hey, this is what I like and they're pretty common sense so if this person loved me it would just come to them naturally."
We (or at least
I) can so easily attribute inaccurate feelings and thoughts to another person's behavior. People really do speak their own languages when it comes to how they give and receive love... and we all (or at least
I) use our own "coding scheme" when we're trying to decipher someone else's feelings and behavior... I think this is where so many of us (or at least
I) can run into trouble...
The frustrating thing is, how else are you supposed to figure out what's going on with someone else? I think that's one of the places where "Don't overthink. Have no expectations. Don't take anything personally." really shows its value. That, and learning not to spend too much time trying to figure out what's going with someone else in the first place. Learning how to foster open communication and mutual respect is probably more key than trying to get inside someone else's head...
You've got it!
We do all look at the world through our particular lens based on all our past experiences and that's what leads us down a lot of those cheeseless tunnels.
Stumps, I'm new to your thread and haven't read your whole sitch yet, but talking about reading someone else's language for giving love... My H has been making dinners for me a lot of weekends when he's in town. For a long, long time I saw that as a kind of criticism -- that he was doing it because he didn't like the way I cook, or that I was inadequate because I didn't make the kinds of meals he prefers. But now we're separated I've come to realize that he was doing those things when he didn't HAVE to. Out of generosity. So I appreciate it a lot more and don't see it as a criticism. And that opens me to the possibility that he's doing it as a gift. Which leads me to see other things without expectations, also as acts of generosity. And so now I see him just a little bit differently than I did before. This isn't about associating him making me a meal with the idea of reconciling... just recognizing that he did something he wasn't required to do, just because he wanted to do it.
Does that help?
It does. I think I'm pretty keenly aware of the dynamic... I did all sorts of stuff for W to show my love and affection, the problem was it wasn't the
right stuff. She appreciated that I did my fair share of the housework and child care for example, or that I maintained her car and did house repairs. These were all things that I did thinking it showed her how much I cared about her. But what she needed was for me to set aside time for just the two of us, to make plans for date nights, etc. She appreciated all the stuff I
did do, but she had a whole other set of "love needs" that weren't being met. And because I did all that other stuff, W tried to tell herself that the unmet needs weren't that important...that she should be thankful for what she did have and not ask for anything else. The end result of that was a bunch of stifled discontent and resentment that she kept to herself until it metastasized. Those unmet needs have been the big "relationship 180s" I've implemented in the past few months.
The expectations thing has been a bit harder to wrestle with. It's definitely difficult not to let the "If W felt _____, then she would ____" type of thinking set in.
I felt exactly like your wife. Appreciating what H does isn't about ignoring my unmet needs; it's about putting myself in a position to assume love so I can be more constructive about explaining my needs.
I felt exactly like your wife. Appreciating what H does isn't about ignoring my unmet needs; it's about putting myself in a position to assume love so I can be more constructive about explaining my needs.
Hmmm... I'm kind of surprised you weren't the WAS in your situation then! Or that you hadn't thought about it at least. There was some other stuff at work in my sitch, but the main one for my WAW seems to be that she went so long trying to accept what she was getting and ignoring/not asking for what she truly wanted that it ended up poisoning her entire view of the marriage.
Now we're in a situation where I more fully understand her needs, and she is more able to articulate them. Our communication is so much better, and we're both doing what we can to meet each other's needs as we understand them. The "unfortunately" in my situation is that despite this progress...despite what my wife describes as our marriage being "all but perfect" the past couple of months, there hasn't been much change in her emotional state...there is an emotional aspect/connection that for her got killed and has yet to return, although in the weeks leading up to the trip she is currently on those feelings seemed to be coming back a little bit.
Journaling a little bit here... I am wrestling quite a bit with "expectations"...and hope/fear. Regarding this trip my W is currently on, things between W and I had been going so well in the weeks leading up to it that I allowed it to feed into my hopes and fears about what would happen when she was gone. My hope was that she would go on this trip and miss me, helping her to realize that ending this marriage isn't truly what she wants. My fear was that she would go on the trip and not miss me at all, helping her to realize that ending the marriage is what she wants. This leads me to engage in all sorts of mental gymnastics as I look for evidence one way or the other... evidence that could only be gleaned from what have only been two very brief phone calls that we've had since she's been gone. But the self-defeatist, negative part of me says "see, she hardly wants to talk to you, she's being cold and distant on the phone, she's realizing she doesn't miss you and doesn't want to be with you...".
To my credit, W knows none of this line of thinking on my part because I've managed to keep it to myself. But whether she's aware of it or not, I know it's not doing me any good. It's falling into that trap of "If W felt/thought ______, then she would be doing/saying ______". The rational part of me knows I have no idea what she is thinking or feeling...certainly not based on our brief phone interactions. But the irrational part of me chimes in with "if she was missing you she would say so, if she loved you she would tell you".
On the up-side: I haven't been contacting W at all; I'm letting her contact me while she's gone and will continue to do so. Our calls have been short, I've been upbeat during them, and I've been keeping busy while she and the kids are gone so W knows I haven't been sitting around twiddling my thumbs in her absence.
I've done a great job of keeping my mental battles hidden from W... I think where I need to make some real progress is in not engaging in those battles in the first place. The outward appearance of peace of mind is great...but I need to develop some real inner-peace of mind for my own sake.
It sounds kind of cheesy... but I read somewhere else on these forums someone saying they kind of imagine what would James Bond do or say in a given situation...and that oddly enough has been some help to me... I've never really given the guy much thought before, but he's the epitome of the cool, calm, stoic man that seems to view so much with a sort of mild bemusement. One could do worse than to adopt a demeanor/outlook like that.
Journaling...
So I ask myself... "What am I afraid of?"
And the answer is, "I am afraid my W will return from this trip with the realization that she did not miss me while she was gone, thus re-affirming in her mind that separation and divorce is the right path for her."
This is the fear.
James Bond was also alcohol-dependent with little to no respect for women. So while I get cool, calm and collected leave the rest.
(no offense Mr Bond)
About the rest of your post-when your mind starts giving you doubts, turn it off. You know how to do that. Our minds give us lots of false messages, the problem is we believe the negative a lot more than the positive. Remind yourself of that. Live in the now.
I think it might be nice if you texted her at some point just asking how things are going in a very honest and heartfelt way. I don't remember what they're doing but going on a trip with a 10 and 8 year old can be a challenge, no matter what they're doing. There's always drama.
I think marriage vows should include "taking care of our home and children is not about what I do to help you or what you do to help me. It's what we do as an act of love for our family."
James Bond was also alcohol-dependent with little to no respect for women. So while I get cool, calm and collected leave the rest.
(no offense Mr Bond)
LOL! Indeed!
I think it might be nice if you texted her at some point just asking how things are going in a very honest and heartfelt way. I don't remember what they're doing but going on a trip with a 10 and 8 year old can be a challenge, no matter what they're doing. There's always drama.
W traveled with the kids and her mom to a semi-family reunion--her mom and her mom's sisters get together once a year. Sometimes assorted other family members attend but it's a very female/matriarchy/sisters-oriented type of thing. I thought about doing something like you suggested... I guess what has held me back is that there has been so little contact from W (and what contact there has been was very brief...almost curt) that I don't want to appear as pursuing if she is pulling back a little bit. During the good times of our marriage, when W went away on a trip I would typically get a phone call each day from her just to check in and say hi and catch up on the day. There hasn't been any of that this time and while I know this is an
assumption on my part, I guess my sense has been that she is using this trip as an opportunity to get some distance from our sitch... and I guess I've been wondering if there's a little bit of a test in there for me...to see if she can go away and I can be on my own without having to keep in "constant" contact.
I guess what it boils down to is
fear again. The fear that she doesn't want to hear from me, the fear that she doesn't want to have to get in touch or respond.
But I guess if I act from a place of loving kindness, with no expectations, than how she interprets it and how she chooses to respond/not respond is on her.
So what if I texted something like "Hey, just wanted to check in and see how everyone was doing. I know even with all the extra help you have at your disposal, being with the kids full-time for a week straight can be a handful! Looks and sounds like everyone is having a great time though. So happy you guys were able to take this trip! Give my regards to everyone...and if you think to, I would love it if you said an extra thanks to Ingrid for me for flying the kids out there. I'm so glad they were able to do this."
Thought about adding at the end "Miss you guys" and/or "Can't wait to see you all when you get home." But maybe just leave that out?
I think marriage vows should include "taking care of our home and children is not about what I do to help you or what you do to help me. It's what we do as an act of love for our family."
Agreed, 100%!
What a lovely time that must be!
Only text if you can have ZERO expectation and that a less than effusive response from her won't send you in a tailspin.
"Thinking about you guys, miss the kids, hoping they're making you proud," or something in that vein.
Nothing that she has to respond to.
And don't do it if it doesn't feel right to you.
Yes, I'm sure they're having a great time. Her family is a ton of fun to hang out with...albeit a little overwhelming in large doses.
So I texted "Thinking about you guys. Looks and sounds like everyone is having a great time! So happy you guys were able to take this trip! Give my regards to everyone, and if you think to I'd love it if you said an extra thanks to Ingrid for flying the kids out. I miss them a ton but I'm so glad they were able to go!"
So... no expectations. Any response is fine. No response is fine too, since nothing I wrote requires a response.
I have to remind myself that one of my meditations these past couple of months has been "what is the kind thing to do...what would a considerate person do?" It isn't about what I get in return, it's about what type of person I want to be. In fact, in a way, no response or a less-than-effusive response shows that I can be kind and considerate even when I don't get something out of it, so...all the better.
Well, no response from W...but that's ok. No expectations. It was a nice gesture on my part no matter what.
It is funny though, looking over our text history from the past couple of weeks, there is an unmistakable contrast between then and now. In the past couple of weeks her texts are full of "Can't wait to hang out with you" "Miss your company" and kissy-lips emojis. Now... nothing.
But to quote a saying I'm not to fond of, but find myself repeating a lot these days... It is what it is.
What does have me feeling a little wonky though is what I found today as I was submitting our counseling statements to the insurance company. W apparently forgot (or maybe she wanted me to find it) that on the back of one of hers, her therapist had written for her what was essentially a script on how to break it to the kids that we were getting divorced. It was dated about a month and a half ago, which would have been after W said she wanted to stay in the house and work on her stuff and get used to the new me, and pretty much at the height of things going well between us.
I'm not even sure it's the script itself that bothers me... I think it's more the fact that it was written by her therapist. In the 8 years W has been seeing this therapist, the therapist has done almost nothing to offer practical advice or resources for W to work on her issues (W has identified codependency as chief among them). Her therapist hasn't even recommended a book to read or anything, and W has commented on and complained about it several times, lamenting that her therapist is a good listener but doesn't do much to help her address and "fix" her problems the way my therapist does, and my IC has even done more as far as offering reading suggestions and support groups etc for W. So... it bothers me. Bothers me that her therapist is apparently a sympathetic ear but has barely lifted a finger in other regards, yet here she is writing out for W what she should say to the kids.
The other thing that kind of knocked me off center today was a conversation I had with our neighbor. She currently has a friend of her husband living in their basement apartment. The friend is going through a divorce himself, and when I asked her how long he was planning on living with them she said "Hopefully not too long, for his sake. Not if he's planning on moving on and dating again because I don't know any woman that would want to date a 40-something year old man who was living in the basement of his friend's house." Kind of hit me in the gut, because that's basically the prospect I'm looking at if I want to continue living near the kids...particularly if I want to stay in their school district. This city is so god-d@mn expensive I could never afford to live here or even near-by on my own. Realistically, if I want to stay close to the kids, I'm looking at renting a room in someone's house. Otherwise, to afford my own place I'm looking at moving pretty darn far away.
Move back inside your head
Move back inside your head
But but but... It can be so scary in there...
Honestly... what I need to do is remind myself that there is only so much I have control over. Just my behavior and my mind.
I'm not much of a "believer", but I need to remember that for the most part, unless I start engaging in some kind of self-destructive behavior or something, things will play out and work out the way God/the Universe/the Flying Spaghetti Monster intends.
I've been given an opportunity to better myself, and have taken advantage of that opportunity. No none would have been happy in the long term--not my wife, not my kids, not me--if things had continued on the way they were in my marriage pre-bomb drop.
Yes, letting go of the idea that we control "something" is so hard but when we can do it, it makes everything so much easier.
I get constant reminders of this, as we're now dealing with a situation with our S21. As much as I'd like to swoop in and save him, it would be counterproductive. He has to save himself.
Journaling...
Picking up W and the kids from the airport tonight. Can NOT wait to see the kids. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't eager to see W too... Despite keeping busy, I've missed her a ton. However, I think I've pretty successfully DB'ed in her absence. GAL'ed all week, and only spoke to/texted W after she got in touch with me first...and always waited a while before getting back in touch with her. If her intent was to get a break from our sitch and do her own thing this week, I didn't do anything to jeopardize that.
I figure there's a good chance W used the week to sort out her feelings, and may have come to a conclusion about our marriage. That is, of course, an *assumption* on my part...but a conscious one.
It will be interesting to see her demeanor when I pick them up. But I can say this, she will be coming home to a clean house, a well-stocked fridge/pantry, a bed with freshly-washed linens, and an intelligent, good looking, in shape man with a positive attitude and a good heart who endeavors to do what's right and kind and always improve himself.
If that's enough for her, that's on her.
Good job. Just be careful about setting time lines. Things happen on her schedule, not yours.
Good luck!
Good job. Just be careful about setting time lines. Things happen on her schedule, not yours.
Good luck!
Thanks! Agree re: the time line. Sometimes living in limbo gets to me, and I fantasize that any decision on W's part, whether it's to stay or go, will bring relief. Or that deciding to end this myself will at least bring certainty back to my life. But then I think about what that would mean for our kids, and how happy they are with us all together... and how much happier I would be if we can pull it together... And the fact that certainty is always a bit of an illusion anyway.
All of that helps me remember that this is really an open-ended process... And even if W decides to stay and states so explicitly at some point, DBing is an ongoing endeavor.
Well, vacation homecoming went about as well as could be expected. Great enthusiastic welcome home with the kids. W was decidedly cooler, but warm enough given our sitch. She mentioned a few times how good it was to be home... that's good enough for me. Got a couple of hugs in there too, and W remarked how thoughtful I was for bringing food to the airport for everyone and for keeping the house clean etc. while they were gone. Got another nice hug after we crawled into bed too. Seems kind of weird to be doing inventory like this...but I'm always looking for signs that I'm on the right path and this type of accounting helps so...
It seems like we are pretty much in the same place we were before W left for vacation. I'll take that. Her spirit/demeanor don't seem to suggest an impending 2nd bomb-drop so...I'll take that too.
One interesting development... W has been talking non-stop about getting a dog since she got back and we spent a good part of last night and this morning looking at potential adoptees. Apparently someone at the vacation house had a dog there for the week, and it really got W into "we need a dog" mode. It's the way she is talking about it that I find interesting...saying things like "we could take her hiking, and to the beach" etc. Definitely seems to be a "we" thing. I'm all for it. I grew up with dogs and love them more than humans in many (if not most!) cases. But I feel about it sort of the same way I feel about bringing babies into the world...it might not be such a great idea if the relationship ain't too solid... like, if we're not going to stay together, who gets the dog? Are her parents going to let her have it at their house if she moves in with them. Will I be able to find a place where I can have it if I have to get my own place? Basically, how will it be taken care of if we're not in a situation where at least one of us will always be around?
So, I'm not sure if I should discuss all of this with her... or just say to heck with it and let all of that sort itself out if it comes to it. I feel like this is a delicate situation... I don't want to put a damper on her enthusiasm or rain on her parade or anything, and I would love to have dog. But I don't want to be playing around with another being's life either. I think too many people enter too lightly into pet ownership...and I 100% do not want to find myself in a sitch where we're having to give up a dog that we committed to taking care of because we split up and neither one of us could keep it.
I don't know...maybe talking about my concerns with W would provide an opportunity to gauge where she is with "us". That's something I've refrained from doing so far. Not sure how to proceed here...
I was wondering about how things went. Glad to read that the only development is she wants a dog.
A dog is a lifelong commitment and everything you say is correct.
Open up a conversation with her about it, no agenda (your concerns)other than finding out what having a dog means to her. Information seeking.
Then take time to think about it and ask more if you need to.
So I realized regarding the dog W wants to get, I pulled a 180 without realizing it. I had texted W's father (a contractor) to ask him how much it would cost to put in a couple of sections of split rail fence around the house. He ended up coming up to the house to talk to us about exactly what we wanted and why we wanted it. When W told him it was for a dog, she made him promise not to tell her mother, and when he asked why W told him it was because her mother is always negative about everything and would point out all the reasons it was a bad idea. W said she hadn't even firmly decided we were getting a dog, but she wanted to enjoy entertaining the idea without someone telling her all the reasons she shouldn't get one. When W said that, I immediately thought to myself "Hmmm, that's what I typically would have done... I would have felt the need to be the voice of reason and discuss all the realities and considerations that needed to be taken into account..." But this time I didn't. I just let W have her fun looking at dogs and thinking up names and imagining what it would be like if we got one.
In other news... this morning W started talking about how she realized while she was on vacation that what was important to her was getting healthier, getting back into yoga, and spending time with her kids and husband and the rest of her family. She said she realized how sucked into an unhealthy lifestyle she was and that working in an environment with people mostly 10-15 years younger than her was fun at first, but she sees the detrimental effect hanging out with what are essentially college kids has had on her. She brought up the fact that she hasn't been wearing her wedding ring (I noticed but said nothing), and wanted me to know that she doesn't consider herself any less married and it doesn't change her behavior, but that she doesn't want to wear that ring anymore because it represents a failed marriage. She said if and when we are more fully reconciled she wants to get a new ring to represent a new marriage. Notably, she said she feels like it's more likely a matter of "when" rather than "if" because she feels good about how things have been lately and where we are headed.
So...this is all good stuff. Just going to keep up DBing, tread lightly, take it slow, and see how things continue to develop.
I was wondering about how things went. Glad to read that the only development is she wants a dog.
A dog is a lifelong commitment and everything you say is correct.
Open up a conversation with her about it, no agenda (your concerns)other than finding out what having a dog means to her. Information seeking.
Then take time to think about it and ask more if you need to.
I posted before I saw this labug. It's funny, I learned another good lesson about assumptions and expectations, as what I had assumed/expected from W upon her return was nothing like what I actually got!
stumps, that's one of the best life skill I've learned in this process, asking open-ended questions without an agenda. I use it on an almost daily basis.
The minute I feel my defenses rising about something, I ask myself "what's going on here," and then I know I need more information about whatever has triggered my response.
The question can be as simple as "Tell me more about that" and then just listen. Only interject if you need clarification. The difficult part for me is, I want a answer/decision/resolution NOW and you often won't get that.
Become comfortable with first, validating what you're hearing and then taking time, let's think about this more, or I need some time to think, or can we talk more about this tomorrow?
I decided to add "Piecing" to my signature info because W used the phrase last night when she was relating to me a discussion she had with her mom about our sitch. MIL was asking about what was going on with us, and W told her we were slowly piecing things together.
Kind of funny, but W also used the phrase "180", saying she wasn't sure if she could do a 180...meaning she wasn't sure if she could go from feeling like she wanted a divorce to feeling like she wanted to stay married, but she hoped that she could and felt like that was the direction she was moving in. In my mind, I liken it to turning a cruise ship. It's not going to happen on a dime.
Slowly but surely, things do seem to be moving in the right direction. I have been sticking with my work--the 180s and GAL. W has mentioned several times that although her guard is still up, she is warming to the idea of a future together. She is definitely interested in renewing a year-long lease on our house, and has been tentatively discussing other future plans--e.g., potentially buying the house we are currently in or maybe moving elsewhere together as a family.
Just have to keep the hard-earned changes going...
You're definitely not in Piecing yet.
Piecing is only when your W definitely says "okay, let's get this marriage fixed" and ACTIVELY does things to do that such as making appointments to the MC, reading books, etc.
I decided to add "Piecing" to my signature info because W used the phrase last night when she was relating to me a discussion she had with her mom about our sitch. MIL was asking about what was going on with us, and W told her we were slowly piecing things together.
Kind of funny, but W also used the phrase "180", saying she wasn't sure if she could do a 180...meaning she wasn't sure if she could go from feeling like she wanted a divorce to feeling like she wanted to stay married, but she hoped that she could and felt like that was the direction she was moving in. In my mind, I liken it to turning a cruise ship. It's not going to happen on a dime.
Slowly but surely, things do seem to be moving in the right direction. I have been sticking with my work--the 180s and GAL. W has mentioned several times that although her guard is still up, she is warming to the idea of a future together. She is definitely interested in renewing a year-long lease on our house, and has been tentatively discussing other future plans--e.g., potentially buying the house we are currently in or maybe moving elsewhere together as a family.
Just have to keep the hard-earned changes going...
This all sounds great.
Go slow, think, be open, trust, let go of the past...
Well, despite fulfilling all of MrBond's requirements for piecing, it seems I was too confident about the state of my marriage. I have been sticking to DBing and GAL, but over the last couple of months W has been flip-flopping back and forth over where she stands and what her feelings are. She went from telling me she was confident we were on the path to a new and better marriage and wanting to see a marriage counselor to help ensure we would achieve that goal, to telling me that she no longer thought her resentful feelings about the past would change and she was no longer willing to put forth the effort to see if they would.
It's kind of weird though because the whole time she has still been wanting me to rub and massage her after work, and we have still been hanging out and doing stuff together. It's just very strange to me.
At any rate, she just told me about an hour ago that she's going to move into her parents house next Monday. I guess the plan for the time being is for the kids to stay in our house with me.
Not really sure on how to proceed as far as demeanor toward W. I mean, I'm being pleasant enough with her... But I'm guessing now just keep all interaction short and sweet? This all just so bizarre to me. She came home from her vacation with the kids all full of hope and promise about the future, and now she has moved in the complete opposite direction...but is still kind of acting like she didn't just drop another bomb with me. I'm in the bedroom and she just came in from the living room and asked if I would watch a movie with her and rub her shoulders...WTF???
I guess what I'm going to have to figure out is, do I continue doing all the stuff
that W and I do together (and all of the stuff that I do *for* her) now that she says she's leaving? She seems to have this vision that despite the bomb she just dropped, we will still just kind of carry on as normal...hanging out as friends. Frankly, I'm not sure if doing that is going to help or hurt my cause. It would almost be easier to know how to proceed if she seemed sick of me and didn't want me around. But as it is she still kind of acts like I'm her best friend.
Journaling...
Watched a little tv this evening, and when the show was over I got up and went to the bathroom to brush my teeth and take out my contacts. W called out to me from the living room, asking if I was getting ready for bed. When I said yes, she replied "weren't you even going to let me know?"
This. This is the puzzle. This is the thing I find interesting. And it is a dynamic that I have seen present itself in various ways in our relationship. My W can tell me that she is not in love with me and that she is moving out...and yet still feel slightly wounded that I would get up prepare for bed--perhaps even go off to the bedroom and go to sleep--without letting her know.
The mind of another person is a vast unfathomable place, the depths of which are best left unplumbed.
And then... As I lay in bed, eyes half shut, doing a bit of pre-sleep mind clearing and some meditations on the good things in my life despite this current adversity, W at my side says "do you think you could rub me? I'm having bad anxiety and can't fall asleep." And I say "sure", but what I think to myself is "hey, let *me* tell *you* about anxiety, and what might cause it... like... having your spouse change her mind literally from one day to the next about how she feels about your marriage, and her commitment, and whether or not she loves you."
But I of course don't say this, because I am DBing. And I am outwardly cool, calm, and collected to the greatest extent possible no matter what I am feeling inside.
But I can't imagine that I would ever tell my spouse that I was done, that I wanted out, that I was indeed moving out, and then turn to her and ask her to comfort me.
Journaling...
W asked me not to come with her and the kids to family dinner at her parents tonight (our Monday night "ritual") so that she could talk to her parents about moving in and arrange a day for doing so. When the kids asked me if I would be coming with them, I just told them I had some extra stuff to do for work and wouldn't be able to.
Part of me feels like the carpet has been pulled out from under me. Two months ago W was so positive we were on our way to a better marriage. Now she is just as positive that all is hopeless. And although she had identified some things that would help her deal with her resentment and negative feelings, and that would help us build that better relationship, she now says she doesn't want to do them... that she is tired, and that she has done enough, and she doesn't think her feelings will ever change. The extent of her vacillation was something I was not prepared for...although I guess I certainly should have been.
Texted W while she was at her parents last night to let her know I was going out for a bit and probably wouldn't be home when she and the kids got back. When I did get home the kids were already in bed and W was on the couch surfing the web watching the Os/Toronto game. I know she doesn't like getting into "stuff" when it's later in the evening, so I was only half-surprised that she didn't bring up any discussion with her parents about when specifically she was planning on moving in with them. In keeping with DBing, I certainly wasn't going to bring it up...although I have to confess I definitely did want to ask if she had talked to them about it and what had been decided. Instead we just hung out watching the game for a bit and then went to bed.
Thought it was interesting that as I was lying in bed and as she was getting prepared to join me, she started talking about doing 30 days of "getting healthy"... starting to eat right, exercising/doing yoga, and--most importantly--reducing (if not quitting altogether) the amount she has been drinking and going out/partying. This last thing has been a huge issue...I'm realizing there is a substance abuse issue at play in our sitch. I'm not sure the exact nature of it...if she could be called an addict or not...but she definitely uses alcohol as a coping mechanism, and it's been 2, 3, 4 nights a week sometimes of drinking and going out to bars...particularly notable because she is on two meds, neither of which should she be drinking much while taking. All of these things, the getting healthy/exercise/reducing partying-drinking, were things that she said she was going to do back when she first dropped the bomb on me in March. Back then, she had said that she owed it to herself, and the kids, and me and the marriage to do them before making any final decisions. But... they just never happened.
So, it was good to hear her say last night that she was once again planning on doing them...whether or not any of them actually happens remains to be seen. Of course this time she didn't say them in the context of doing them before deciding for sure to move out. I wanted to ask, but didn't. I think it's best to assume that her goal is to do (I hope) all of these healthy things not INSTEAD of moving out, but in addition to moving out. Her parents are both pretty big drinkers though, so I don't how much moving in with them is going to be conducive to a reduction in drinking, but... I wish her the best.
Yet again, just as I was drifting off to sleep last night, W asked me if I would pet her head to help her fall asleep...and this morning she asked me to massage her back before I started getting ready for work. Hope that's something she misses when she moves out...
Here's a question... One of Sandi's rules is to not schedule dates together...but what if the WAS contacts the LBS to do something like see a movie, or go to dinner, or attend some kind of event? Should the LBS accept? It would seem on the one hand a good sign that the WAS wants to do something with the LBS...but on the other hand, is the LBS being too available if he/she accepts the invitation? Would the proper tact be to accept some, but not all, invitations? It would certainly seem to be not in the LBS's best interest to have the WAS looking elsewhere for someone to invite to do these type of things...
I guess I'll cite Sandi, in response to your questions of late.
15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
Some new words I have been carrying around:
Nobility
Lift
Joy
Life
Class
Responsibility
Deliberate
Stinky (because, too serious is never the right answer all the time)
I would say that approaching you in bed for a rub when you're already asleep might be a good time for you to say "Please ask me tomorrow when I've had some rest, or before I'm already crashed."
I told my wife when she attempted to bait me into solving a problem for her (that she could then argue about) involving lawyers that when we were married, her problems were mine, her hurts were my hurts. But now, she is leaving me, and she has taken that responsbility with her. After blowing up at me, she came back hours later to apologize.
As for the date...I would respond with some open ended questions. "Tell me more about what you have planned." And be prepared to say "No, thanks" if she wants anything other than childcare discussion or some other necessary convo. No romanticism. We're talking Denny's here.
My two cents, anyway.
And I appreciate them!
W had suggested that after she moves out, we would agree not to see other people (I don't know that I would necessarily trust her to keep up her side of that deal, but that's another story...), and that we continue going out with each other once a week (something we had been doing for the past few months as a "date night") and think of it as a way of checking in with each other to see where we each stand.
I'm not too sure how I feel about that, to be honest.
I just jumped in on your thread, but I can't get over the idea that her mixed signals are not a healthy response for either of you.
I would be very tempted to tell her that date night is off for the time being. She'll push, of course. I would simply say that you are willing to discuss anything and everything about the children, but now that she has moved out, you need time to sort things out and think them over.
So another day has passed and still no mention from W about her discussion with her parents about moving in with them or a firm move-out date. Obviously I'm not going to ask or even bring it up.
W did have a session with her IC tonight. I learned a long time ago to ask nothing about those too, so when she got home I just played a board game with the kids while she relaxed on the couch. After putting the kids to bed W asked me to sit with her on the couch, and then said that it was late and she didn't feel welll so she didn't want to go into it in depth, but that she had a good session with her therapist and she wanted me to make an appointment as soon as possible with the MC I had previously arranged for us to see via a referral from my own IC. So... I will do that tomorrow and then...I'll see where this goes.
Journaling...
Called MC to make an appointment... from talking to her she seems like just the right person for W an I. Unfortunately...she only accepts payment upfront, rather than handling billing the way my IC does (my IC gives me a receipt, I submit it to my insurance company, and then the insurance company sends my IC a check for the billed amount). The MC wants $230 upfront for an initial 1.5 hour session. It would be money well-spent for sure, but I just don't have the cash on hand right now. With school having just started for the kids and all the expenses related to that, plus gearing them up for fall and winter... It would be almost literally taking food out of my kids mouths to fork over that amount upfront right now. Has me a little stressed out. Not sure what to do other than speak to my IC, who works within the same practice as the MC, and see if she can talk to her about handling billing the way my IC does.
Stumps, $230 is crazy expensive! Is that the norm where you are? I'm in an expensive metro area and my MC is only $140 (previous one was $120).
Stumps, $230 is crazy expensive! Is that the norm where you are? I'm in an expensive metro area and my MC is only $140 (previous one was $120).
Yeah, seems super expensive to me too, but I have no idea where it falls on the scale around here for MC. My IC bills $140 an hour though... And I live in one of the most expensive parts of the country for sure. I'm also of the understanding that the initial MC session would be longer and therefor more expensive than the ones to follow. Still seems like a huge chunk of change...But my IC has been absolutely stellar, and so highly recommends this MC that I would really like to find a way to make things happen with her. Especially because I've experienced disastrous results in the past after just picking an MC "out of the book".
Journaling...
I decided to call the MC back to day and plead my case... I convinced her to bill us--at least initially--and then accept reimbursement from my insurance company rather than making us pay upfront. So we have an appointment on Monday. I have to confess, I'm a bit anxious about it...although I'm not sure why. Hopefully it will be a growth/learning opportunity no matter what the outcome. The MC specializes in Imago therapy...although I'm not sure that's what she'll be conducting with us.
W still hasn't said anything more about the discussion she presumably had with her parents about moving in with them... nor has she mentioned in any greater depth what made her last visit with her IC so particularly "good"... but if the outcome of that session was her agreeing to MC rather than feeling like there was no point...well, I'll take that.
Journaling...
Not sure what's going on with the "Read Only" announcement here, but it seems others are still posting. I suppose if this post gets lost it's no big deal.
W and I have our first MC session today. I'm trying to keep a "beginner's mind", but it's hard not imaging what it will be like and how it will go. Particularly keep thinking about what W will have to say. I'm not even sure she suggested we go because she's interested in saving/fixing our marriage...the last time we went to MC a few years ago it was so she could tell me she wanted a divorce in a controlled environment.
I'm reminding myself to go into this, at least initially, in listening mode. My goal is to listen...responding as necessary of course. But I think it would be smart to begin this process, no matter how long or short it ends up being, by hearing what W has to say rather than taking it as an opportunity to get everything off my chest. I definitely have a bit of a "thin ice" feeling.
Also, and I feel kind of bad about this, but W is going to visit her very old/invalid grandmother before our appointment today. This never puts W in the best place emotionally, and I hate to confess this but it has me worried that it may cast a pall over out session today. I know I shouldn't make that assumption...but it's hard not to.
Well... First MC session went about as well as could be expected. It's pretty clear how/why W went from her post-vacation mindset of "We're not there yet but we're on the right track" to "I'm done and don't think I'll ever be 'in love' with you again". She has a TON of resentment and anger (I dare say rage) and hostility about the past...the first 6 years or so of our marriage during which she felt like she was working and working to have a good relationship while feeling like I was doing nothing.
Not sure if MC is going to fix this, but at least she's willing to go to session #2. Unfortunately that's until week after next.
I've been reflecting a lot upon our first MC session. W made a point of noting during it that she didn't believe anything was going to change her mind, but that she was there because she had reluctantly agreed that if there was the slimmest chance MC would change anything then she "supposed it was worth it."
W's "homework" for our next session is to compose a list of all of my transgressions during the course of the marriage...all of the things that she was hurt by, angry about, and resentful over so that she could communicate them to me. I gather this is because there is a lengthy list of items, some of which I'm aware of but some I am undoubtedly not, and one of W's issues is having bottled all of this stuff up until it metastasized. W said in the session she doesn't allow herself to feel anger and instead bottles it all up, and I read a great description from one of the vets here on the boards about what happens when a person does that.
Absent in this first MC session was any discussion of the things that W had done that I was hurt by/resentful over. Certainly didn't seem the right time to start addressing that. I'm not sure what the right time for that will be--if there really will be a right time at all...my tact has been to let go of the past and focus on our present behavior. At the very least I think it would be wise for the time being to focus on W's "complaints". I certainly don't want to get into any tit-for-tat type of disagreements. So I primarily listened to and validated what W had to say, and owned my "stuff". W did admit to contributing to our problems by being conflict-avoidant and not letting me know how hurt/angry she was by any given thing that I did. But man... she was bringing up stuff from like 10 years ago that I thought we had addressed and put to bed.
It's weird though, the nature of the wall W has built up around her. As I've mentioned numerous times, she went from being sure we were on the path to reconciliation to being sure we're completely done and that nothing will change her mind...and yet...she will still come to me and ask me for comfort... Two or three times yesterday evening she asked me to come hug her, she wanted me to massage her when we went to bed. I don't know if that's some form of cake-eating, or if she's just getting what she can while she still can, or if I'm just not fully understanding whatever battle she might be fighting in her head.
Journaling...
Been thinking a lot about our 11-year anniversary, which is coming up in just a couple of weeks. Funny, at this time last year I thought we were on the right track and well on our way to a solid future together. We usually go away to a cabin in the woods each year to celebrate, but I guess we'll be skipping that this year...I certainly didn't make the arrangements this year...didn't seem like it would be wise.
W hasn't had anything to say about our MC session or her "homework" assignment, and I haven't asked.
W came home from work last night in a good mood. Said it had been slow all day but that she'd had a good time because she worked with a friend that she's not usually scheduled with. She gave me what she calls a "jump-up hug" when she came in...you know, jumped up into my arms and wrapped her legs around my waist, and said "let's have date night at home tonight," which for us means making dinner and hanging out on the patio together while the kids entertain themselves. Sounded great to me and I said "sure", but I'm not really sure what to make of it since two days earlier she was saying she was done and that she doesn't think anything will change her mind. I guess what I need to be vigilant about is taking things at face value and not assigning any deeper meaning to them.
W mentioned this morning that it was getting to feel like Ren Fest weather (she's a huge Ren Fest nerd, one of the things I love about her), and without really thinking about it I said we should go weekend after next. She responded "Definitely...It's a date." Again, seems great that she responded so enthusiastically...but seems weird in light of what she last had to say about her feelings regarding the M. So yet again, face value etc etc. The day we go to the Ren Fest will be a couple of days after our anniversary, so I guess if we were to celebrate it at all, that would be how...but I'm not confident I should be framing it like that...either to myself or to her.
Not sure how to handle the upcoming anniversary really. From a DB perspective it almost seems like making as little note of it as possible is the way to go...but knowing my wife, that could actually work against me. I had already bought her a small but sentimental gift a while back, before things fell apart. I think it might be best to get her a card and give her the gift, and treat her to a day at the Ren Fest. I don't know...I'm going to have to think about how to best navigate this.
Recapping for myself to help give me a lay of the land...
W told me about a week and a half ago that despite previously feeling like we were on our way to reconciling, she now felt like she was never going to feel in love with me again and that she planned on moving out, at least temporarily, to clear her head and be away from me for a while.
Two days later, W came home from her IC session and without any in-depth discussion told me that it was a good session and that she wanted me to make an appointment with a MC we had been referred to by my IC.
Just under a week later we had our first MC session. During this MC session W said she was there because she felt like if there was the slimmest chance that it might help then it might be worth it, particularly because of our kids, but she also said in her heart she didn't really believe MC was going to change her feelings about being done with this marriage.
Also in our MC session, W said she sees the work that I've done and that she truly believes my changes are real and permanent, but that it's just too late. She said she is happy for me, because she sees the benefits my changes have bestowed upon me, but that it also makes her VERY angry that it took her being done and wanting a divorce for those changes to happen.
W is also still VERY angry abouy a whole laundry list of things that have happened over the course of our marriage. Most (maybe even all) of them we have discussed at one point or another, but the anger and the pain and the unhappiness are all still there and apparently pretty fresh for her. She said she truly believes I am not the same person that caused her that pain anymore, and that for the past 6 months or so I have been the husband she always wanted, but that her wall is up and she just isn't in love with me any more, and she doesn't believe that wall is ever coming down. She said the marriage has been too much work and she is exhausted and tired of trying.
The sort of...irony...here is that we get along great. Probably better now than at any other point in our marriage. We've gone out more, we've had people over more often, she confides in me and I in her...we have a relationship that is seemingly closer and friendlier than those of the people around us who ostensibly are not having marital problems, and yet... W says the love, the romantic love, just isn't there for her. And I know she has been in touch with a lawyer, although I'm not sure in what capacity.
And yet, she still does and says things that by most accounts would seem like good signs. She still wants some physical contact (although certainly not sexual), she wants to spend time together, she comes to me for hugs and comfort all the time (I initiate NONE of that these days). I in fact have been working under the assumption that she is going to leave any day now...that's been my assumption since March when she told me that was her plan. She just hasn't. Yet.
So, two things (at least) that I've noticed I'm dwelling on, that I need to take steps to change (change the fact that I'm dwelling on them that is).
One is that W said she is moving out...that she MUST move out to get some distance from me and clarity regarding our sitch, but nothing has been said about actually moving out since then. I have to fight the urge to ask her what's going on regarding that.
The other is that I know she has been speaking off and on with a lawyer, and when she first apprised me of this (she came home from an IC session and said her IC had suggested she contact one and had given her some contact info and that she had indeed called) she said she would keep me in the loop regarding what she was discussing/legalities in order to keep our split as open-book and amicable as possible. Since that initial call however, W hasn't mentioned any of her ongoing contact with the lawyer. I only know about it because she apparently discusses it with her father, who for better or worse typically clues me in on what W tells him. He doesn't tell me particulars (and I don't ask), but he'll say things like "I saw W and she told me she spoke with the lawyer again today..." So I've been fighting the urge to ask W what's going on regarding that.
There is a part of me that is making the HUGE assumption that W deciding she would go to MC and not having moved out yet are merely legal maneuvers. I don't like that I'm thinking that way... I feel like I shouldn't be focusing on that at all... but the past couple of days it's been hard not to. Definitely something I'm struggling with.
One thing I need to keep reminding myself... that I need to be vigilant about, is that whatever negative thoughts or emotions I'm having at any given time, they will pass. Maybe not right away, but eventually, and I must not act on them.
Well, against my better judgment I allowed myself to have a little bit of a relationship talk with W today at her request. Nothing too heavy but she did want to "check in" and see where I/we are. I was kind of surprised because she almost never initiates this type of conversation (of course neither do I these days), but apparently since neither of us has discussed the MC appointment over the past few days since we had it, she was wondering what I thought about some of the things she had to say in the session. I tried to keep it short and sweet and said that while I felt like I was aware of most of what I had done to hurt her during our marriage, I obviously had not realized the depth/extent of that pain, and for that I was sincerely sorry.
Probably shouldn't have taken the opportunity, but I did try to do a little fact finding and asked her if she had had any further contact with the lawyer she had told me her IC had put her in touch with. Kind of bothered me that she lied and said "no", but I didn't let on that my FIL had already told me she was in semi-regular contact with the lawyer. I guess the real point is to not ask questions like that in the first place.
And so it goes...
For months upon months I've been feeling like there is a piece to this puzzle I'm missing. W has admitted several times that she often behaves like someone who is having an affair, but has sworn up and down in the past that she's not and never has. Perfect example is I caught her in a lie a few weeks ago...well, I didn't exactly catch her because I didn't really do anything... W called me to say she had just gotten off work, but what she didn't know is that her boss had texted me two hours prior to say that W had left work without her phone and wanted to let me know so that W would know where her phone was.
Well, last night, the pieces finally came together. A coworker of hers accidentally blew W's cover and it turns out that for the past 7 months or so W has been blowing our money on cocaine. Going out to the bars several times a week, meeting up with her dealer (feels so weird writing that), getting drunk and wired and then coming home after I've gone to sleep. Got confirmation from W herself after she first denied denied and denied it some more. Certainly makes a lot of things make sense now. Not even sure how much of the truth I know, because looking back I can now see that W has often covered up one lie with another one. For all I know she's b@nging this guy in addition to buying coke from him. She's already on meds for depression and anxiety and isn't even supposed to be drinking while on them; throwing coke on top of that 3 or 4 days a week sure can't be good.
Meanwhile her IC and her lawyer have been advising her without either knowing anything about all of this.
Don't see much on the boards here about drug abuse/addiction...didn't even see too much about in the DR and DB books.
Really not sure how to proceed...
And she's been cheating on me for the past 10 months too. Yay! The fun never stops!
Man... the hits just keep coming. Turns out she's cheated on me with 6 different people over the course of our entire marriage. Had to drag it out of her after confirming the most recent affair. Ex-boyfriends. People she's met at bars.
She always swore up and down that she was a "good girl" when she went out and that she never has and never would cheat. Now she's saying she's never been faithful to anyone in her life and this is just what she does in every relationship she's ever been in.
Not sure I want to bother trying to save this marriage anymore. I'd be damn certain if there weren't two innocent kids involved.
I really don't know what to think anymore. My entire marital history...my entire world...has been redefined. It is not what I thought it was.
We are now up to 9 people my wife has cheated on me with dating back to the first year of our marriage up until September of this year.
Everything...almost everything I thought I knew about our relationship has turned out to be a lie. All the nights she was going out to bars, promising that she wasn't doing anything when I wasn't there that she wouldn't do if I was... Lies. 9 people she has cheated on me with...and admits to countless others that she made herself available to. Going home with them. Sex acts in their cars. We actually went to one of the small corner bars together where she had become a regular and was meeting some of these guys, and I know now what the looks that I was getting from the 2 bartenders meant. They knew what was up. They knew she was married and what she had been doing and they couldn't believe she was in there with me, the husband.
I don't know what to think anymore. This is a level of insanity I was never prepared for.
She has a problem that has nothing to do with you would be my guess.
So sorry, stumps, so so sorry.
Wow, stumps, that's a hard thing to find out. I'm so sorry.
Thanks... To her credit (I suppose), W admits as much herself. That there is something wrong with her. Something deeply wrong.
Amidst the devastation...and I am indeed devastated, there is a small sliver of another feeling... almost...relief. Relief that I'm not nuts...not paranoid...that what I sensed all along has turned out to be true.
But the level of lying and deceit and manipulation to keep me in the dark and complacent...it's almost too much to wrap my head around.
I don't want to make any long-term decisions right now, that's for sure. But W says she is remorseful and full of regret and doesn't want to leave/separate/divorce any more. Things got so bad a week or so ago that I had to call 911 and she was taken to the hospital for a psych evaluation.
We are still in MC, and she is seeing a new IC that specializes in EMDR therapy. W says she is disgusted with herself, that she feels like a monster, that she knows what a liar and a manipulator she has been not only with me and but for pretty much her entire life and that she doesn't want to be that person any more. It all certainly seems genuine...but how to tell? Is this just more manipulation? How could I ever be certain? Or ever trust her again?
I know I love her... but I don't know that I could ever recover from this. Do couples ever come back from something this extensive? I have no experience with anything as deep and dark as this. This goes beyond "run-of-the-mill" cheating/infidelity. MC and IC have suggested possible sex addiction and/or attachment/personality disorder. I have no idea if these potential diagnoses (assuming they're even accurate...maybe W is just an @ssh0le and I've been duped for 12 years by her) can be overcome within the context of a relationship/marriage. Am I crazy for even wondering?
Part of me says run and don't look back. Part of says I meant my vows when I made them... and the biggest part of me wants to figure out what is best here for our children.
Just be patient. Her willingness to seek therapy is a good step, and seems genuine from an outside perspective. You dont have to decide how you feel forever, today.
Wondering if anyone here has any experience with/knowledge of sex addiction. Not sure what to think about this potential diagnosis... Reading the descriptions, a lot of it certainly seems to describe my W. The double life, the rationalization and manipulation and sense of entitlement particularly.
W does seem genuinely upset/disgusted/remorseful/guilty. She said me busting her is the first time she has ever had to confront who she is and what she's done, and it's been earth-shattering for her. I'm afraid that no matter how genuine she is, if this is truly sex addiction (which seems a bit of a misnomer for her, because it seems less about the sex than the attention), than as with any addiction I may be in for more lying/manipulation/covering up even if we stay together and work on this both in IC and in MC. Or that this is just how W is wired sexually, and that sex in a committed relationship will never be able to satisfy the urge to act out sexually... that the taboo of cheating and illicit sex is just what gets her off... That sex in the context of marriage and kids and bills and life stress will never compare with the fantasy bubble of "hooking up".
Just don't know where to go from here yet.
Stumps, I have no first-hand knowledge of sex addiction, but I am friends with a woman whose H has been diagnosed as a sex addict. He is a pediatrician and was having sex with the mothers of his patients for years. It's been a year since the whole thing was revealed and somehow they are still together. I do know he's said some incredibly hurtful things to her (I wish you had died in that car accident), and yet they carry on. It's possible, but whether it's what you want or not is an entirely different story.
I do know he's said some incredibly hurtful things to her (I wish you had died in that car accident), and yet they carry on.
Uh...Wow... I guess it's not entirely relevant, but any idea what that's about? Did he say that (and the other hurtful stuff) after his diagnosis, or was that how he was before? My W has never said anything like that, that's for sure.
My W has said she is terrified I won't be able to get over her betrayal, and that even if I say I'll stay now, she knows I might wake up months from now and say that I just can't do it. She says she knows she would deserve it, but that she is committed to changing no matter what because she doesn't want to live that way anymore...for herself and for our kids, even if she can't save our marriage. She said me catching her was a blessing in disguise, because she can't imagine continuing to live her life the way she was living it and in fact could picture herself winding up dead if she doesn't change.
I don't know... It's not even that I necessarily doubt her sincerity (although part of me does)...I just worry that no matter how sincere she is, if this is truly an addiction than it will have all the hallmarks of an addiction--which means I have to plan on relapses, and continued deception...having to be on my toes all the time. I love her... but I don't know if I have it in me anymore to be and do what it's going to take. I want to be there for her, if she's being for real about her guilt and wanting to change, but I'm not even sure what "being there for her" looks like anymore.
He started coming out with all the nasty stuff after he got caught. I really don't know how one recovers from hearing your H wishes you had died. But then again, I'm in no position to talk.
Despite 10 years of infidelity and what amounts to almost one illicit partner for each of those years, I have decided for the time being to stick things out. W says she has been humbled and believes I am the strongest man in the world, and that she now sees what true love is. She acknowledges that I may wake up weeks or months from now and realize that I just can't do it anymore and decide to leave.
My friends all think I'm crazy for staying, or for not making W leave. W's parents think I'm an amazing man. My MIL told W that she always loved me but in light of how I'm handling this and my decision to stay she loves me even more now, and that while W's father (who W always put on a pedestal) is a great man, W needed to bear in mind that I am just as good if not better.
Our MC thinks we are amazing in that we can even be in the same room with each other, never mind being committed to working this out. She said 99.99% of couples would have been easily undone. MC asked me how I was able to come to the decision that I had, and I told her this: For the past few years of my life I have been on a spiritual journey (not to sound too cheesy). I am committed to getting "this" right..."this" being life in general and everything in it. I don't have the existential doubt that I used to have. I know what the meaning of life is, for me. And that is to always try to act from a place of love, no matter what. I have seen a massive transformation in my own life and in all of my relationships as a result of this endeavor and the proof is in the pudding that it is the right path for me. If I give in to the anger and hostility and self-doubt cause by my wife's infidelity it would be ruinous... Instead I continue to choose to act from a place of love, with my eyes wide open. I am no dummy; I know the road ahead will be rocky and difficult at times, but I will walk it with love and see where it takes me and my family. If I walk it with pain and anger and fear and resentment...well...I know where that leads, and it's nowhere good.
Thank you, so much. It's funny... I have less doubt about my own ability to move past this and "fix" what I contributed to the mess of our "old marriage" than I do about my W's... She knows she is dealing with a deep compulsion to act out sexually and that lying and manipulating and, perhaps most importantly, dissociating herself from her actions, had become completely normal for her.
But, like I said... eyes wide open, with love.
Journaling...
I am proud of myself that in the midst of this betrayal and profound hurt...and sometimes anger...that I feel, I am still able to find sympathy/empathy for my W.
Because she gave her therapist permission to do so, W's therapist has revealed to me some of the information that has come out about W's past, particularly in regard to her sexual behavior. W disclosed that during her sophomore year of high school she slept with at least 25 people and was promptly branded the school slut. Later, during a period in her late teens/early twenties when she worked at a hotel catering banquets and weddings, she said she had sex with so many random people she met at the events that she had no idea what the tally was, but she estimates it in the hundreds.
When W and I discussed it, she said she slept with someone new pretty much every weekend, sometimes more than one person in a weekend, so that could easily be 200-300 people that she's had sex with during the time she worked at the hotel and over the course of her life. That is staggering to me. And she has had sex with almost as many people during our marriage as I have in my entire life before meeting her.
I do not judge her for her sexual history. I honestly do not. I feel bad for her. She seems tortured by it at this point. She has admitted that hers weren't the actions of a sex-positive person who merely enjoyed sex and meeting people or whatever positive spin you could put on her behavior. She says that at the time she told herself it was empowering, but that she sees it now as the behavior of someone who was lost and empty inside, and trying to fill the void with drugs and alcohol and sex.
For as much pain and anguish as I continue to experience at times due to the revelation of my W's infidelities, I wouldn't trade places with her for the world.