It looks like my original thread hit its limit;
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...450#Post2461450In any case, I would still love to find more information and any advice.
Meanwhile, there seems to be a prevalent assumption here that I'm simply still doing something wrong. I don't know how to convince anyone on that, and ironically I'm not even sure if my wife could either, no matter how close to the truth it might be.
Maybe it's because if you were doing everything
right, you'd be getting better results?
DBing is all about "Do what works," at its core. So the corollary to that would be "If it's NOT working, do something different" . . . no?
Starsky
Exactly. Because it's her end, right? I mean, isn't that the point?
Let's put it bluntly; my wife is happy with our marriage except that she doesn't have a libido, and that's my only real concern as well.
The trick isn't to say that I'm not giving enough x or showing enough y, I get the argument except that I can't convince some people that I'm doing enough of those things, and otherwise it becomes, "if you were doing everything right she'd have a stronger libido than you."
That's just not it. And not even based on what I say, but on what she says, which is at least as important if not more important.
So again, just take it at face value, is it even possible to assume everything is good and I'm not drastically missing one of her basic, important needs? All I want to do is figure out how to deal with the stress of having a sexless marriage, no matter how temporary (because it can be difficult every day), and now I also want to figure out how best to bring up anything I could talk to her about for her to LEARN what she might need to do to get back whatever it is she's missing.
For example, what if a book, any book including any of Michele's books, could have a profound revelation for my wife, good or bad? My best assumption is it would be good, but it would at least be something, right? And something does help.
But I obviously can't say, "hey, here's this book I think you'll like..."
She might like it. She might love it. But I can't get her really interested in trying without making it feel like I'm pressuring her. I get that, so I stay out of it, but she's not internally motivated to really look online, or read, or ask around, or see another doctor, or anything that might give her more knowledge about what's going on and perhaps how to address it, even if it's to tell me she understands that I want to have sex and to communicate why she can't or doesn't want to. See, it's not simply about sex, it's just that the evolution of our relationship seems stalled on her end, not even through any deliberate choice but perhaps through naivety.
I mean, I can't help but imagine, especially when I'm awake at night feeling alone, what it might be like IF we both could talk about any of these books that I've done so much reading and research on and that she is all but unaware of, does that make more sense? At least then we'd both know more, but instead I have a hard time bringing it up at all (no, I don't ever come out and say or ask why we're not having sex since the first time I asked well over a month ago) because I am afraid it will feel like pressure BECAUSE I think we both know everything else is ok------think about it, what IF all her needs actually are being met, and all of mine but sex are being met? Just assume it's possible---------so then when she starts investigating this issue, how can she NOT feel like she's being told simply to have sex with her husband? Michele even says it herself, and it's not that I think it's bad advice, it's that IF there are no other issues and not having sex is an outlier, the realization of that point instantly gives sex a stigma all over again, doesn't it?
Does that make more sense why I'm afraid I'm not even supposed to talk about anything? I'm making her dinner tonight and I've planned us to talk, not about this, but JUST to talk, for at least an hour, just us, then we're watching a movie called "Enough Said." I called her today on my way back to work from a meeting, which she loves. She used my credit card to buy gas this afternoon. I'm not EXPECTING anything, I just want to make sure it's clear that 1.) I'm doing the best I know how (and I sincerely believe meeting all of her needs from my end) and 2.) I'm still keeping quiet about it.
I just have a hard time and don't know how other people deal. Like, the more books I read, the more I realize things I don't just already know, but things I've already been doing so long that they're good habits, including romantic affection and time. And as I read more, I realize how unaware she must be of the things I'm reading about, only I can't deliberately introduce to her, right? It's so tricky, all while struggling with a desire to ML with my wife.
It's interesting to think about how people would respond if she was here to put in her point of view. But she's not depressed. Let's start with that.
Talked to her more last night just about that part, it does have more to do with her diabetic pain, plus other diabetic issues she's pending for seeing an endocrinologist to address the hormone side.
Of course, they can't see her for at least another month.
I'm just going to state this again to see if it holds, just for the sake of the argument to see what the next step I need to take should be; Our marriage is very good, my wife is very happy, she just doesn't want to have sex. She's too tired, now from Cymbalta adding to it much worse, for example.
So she is taking an antidepressant and you are saying she is not depressed?
How do you know this?
I am with goatgal on this one, go back and re-read her post it was excellent I thought.
Don't brush that off.
It's interesting to think about how people would respond if she was here to put in her point of view. But she's not depressed. Let's start with that.
Talked to her more last night just about that part, it does have more to do with her diabetic pain, plus other diabetic issues she's pending for seeing an endocrinologist to address the hormone side.
Of course, they can't see her for at least another month.
I'm just going to state this again to see if it holds, just for the sake of the argument to see what the next step I need to take should be; Our marriage is very good, my wife is very happy, she just doesn't want to have sex. She's too tired, now from Cymbalta adding to it much worse, for example.
So she is taking an antidepressant and you are saying she is not depressed?
How do you know this?
I am with goatgal on this one, go back and re-read her post it was excellent I thought.
Don't brush that off.
No, I'm saying exactly what she told me, and what her doctor said.
Yes, she's taking Cymbalta now, but no, not explicitly for clinical depression, not at all. She's taking it for physical pain (among other pills for the same pain). The doctor said it would have a "side effect of a mood enhancer," but that it was prescribed explicitly for her foot pain in particular, both as a result of cancer 5 years ago and diabetes.
Brushing people off? Is that how I sound? I apologize; I certainly don't mean to be rude, merely I want to make sure I'm getting the point across when I leave something out and the conclusion results in being different from the actual circumstances.
I'm not trying to be defensive by saying she's not depressed, but rather I'm trying to make clear what the situation is. I'm not sure if she and her doctor both saying here that she's not depressed would change anyone's mind simply because he precribed her Cymbalta but, well, here we are.
If anything else, the negative side effects, particularly sleepiness, so far seems to be doing more harm than good. Nothing ever really eliminates her foot pain----most of the medicine is just to keep it at bay (if she forgets it for too many days, like on vacation one weekend, the pain is crippling). Cymbalta is a non-opiate and I think that's one of the reasons it gets looked at, particularly for this specific type of pain.
I understand the idea that depression might be why a wife would lose libido, and I don't mean to sound abrasive, but my wife is not depressed. I'm not sure I could ever really change anyone's mind here on that, but take my word for it just for argument's sake to see if there is any more advice or solutions we can work on in the meantime.
I can tell you that I have been depressed for years and hiding it pretty well from people because I disagreed with taking Paxil which had sexual side effects. I had to go to the doctor recently to get this treated and he prescribed Wellbutrin. Its an anti-depressant with a great side effect for you 2. It also increased libido which I can attest to. Im told that Zoloft does something similar too. Just throwing that out there.
On another note, if you want her to read a book of some kind, why dont you just order one and read it yourself. So you can understand what might be going on. If she wants to read it or sees that maybe youre learning from it maybe she will read it too.
With that being said I would agree that it sounds like you might be a little overly concerned with sex instead of your wife's health. Im not trying to put you down, just saying that it isnt a life or death thing not having sex for a bit.
Gray, I had typed this up and then the thread locked, so I hope it's not something repeated. , We hear the frustration in your posts. Please don't feel under attack b/c people here want to help you.
I'm not trying to be insensitive, but I have to ask......did you really think through what life may hold by M an older woman? Plus, these particular physical issues (Diabetes, hysterectomy, cancer, etc.) ages a woman much faster than one who doesn't have it.
Cymbolta does not affect everyone with low libido. From what I've read, only about one percent of female patients experience it. It is usually prescribed for people who live with pain every day. If I had to choose between suffering with neuropathy or having a lower libido, I would take the Cymbolta. In fact, I did.
I really hope you can get your focus off the AD med, b/c the problem was there before she started taking it. And, she's just recently started, right?
My suggestion is that she go to a specialist in hormone balancing. It is much, much more involved than checking her lack of estrogen. They can do test to see exactly what her body is deficient in, instead of guess work. It could be anything from not enough thyroid hormones, adrenal fatigue, fibromyalgia.....just to name three I know about that all which have symptoms of low energy and fatigue. They can help with low libido, too!
I have heard it puts a lot of pressure on a woman being M to a much younger man. She may not feel comfortable discussing some things. She may fear it would drive you away, IDK. Just as a guess, she probably is wondering why she's changed and feels this way, and concerned how you could see her in the near future.
You told of a recent night of LM and how great it was. But it didn't seem to help. You count the days or weeks, but aren't you leaving that night out? IDK, maybe I missed something. If there is not anything physically causing the problem, I think you have little option except to question your own smothering methods. We women love romance, but frankly, I wouldn't want my H to just keep on and on with the touch-feely stuff, following me around wanting my undivided attention (especially sexually) or trying to please me every minute. Not every single night! The romance starts to fizzle when you over-kill. That is why it was suggested backing off and getting involved in something besides her. Or hang out with her, but don't make it be this love-slave scenario.
Each of you need things independent from each other & work. You said you basically gave up your friends and your activities for hers. But it may not be so attractive to your W if she feels you are co-dependent. If you announce that you're going somewhere so she can have space, it will make you even less attractive, so just truly find something to enjoy part of the time. Then when you try to be romantic, her fires will be lit more easily.
You know, most of us love sweets. But we need to include other things or it can make us very sick after a while.
"GG,
I see you are an 9 year age gap with you the younger. I was wondering how that is working out and if there is any points of contention?
Thanks.
For all the sexless my only question is when you are near your deathbed, do you want to look back on your life and realize your spouse or long term relation partner "blocked" you from X years of a descent sex and intimacy in life or not?"Not to hijack Grey's thread, but here's my answer.I tolerated almost 30 years of a less-than-satisfactory sex life with my older husband because I LOVED HIM and took the good with the bad.
I knew he had "issues" that had nothing to do with me, and accepted that he had a lower drive, and some problems with being emotionally available on an intimate level.
One of the reasons I come off so angry here at times is that I found out that he has had a long-term relationship with porn SINCE BEFORE WE EVEN MET, which he preferred to indulge rather than being with me. My needs came second. This was hard to accept.
On top of that, when I would no longer submit to his "pornified" version of non-emotional lovemaking, saying that I was completely available to him, but that I didn't want to be treated like a blow-up doll or some porn actress one minute longer,
he completely shut down on me, eventually finding some needy young woman who was willing to be used by him in that way.
(At the time, I didn't realize that was what was happening, I assumed all that he told me, low testosterone, stress at work, the usual excuses. And I didn't push the issue. I was going through menopause and often ML was the last thing on my mind, not because I didn't want to, but I was tired, sweaty, didn't sleep well, irritable. Like PMS all the time. That is mostly over now. But at that point I needed more than just the "same-old" that passed for ML for so many years. He wasn't willing to give that and I wasn't willing to keep trying.)
All the while I was loyal, loving, and put my desires on the back burner out of love and loyalty. I finally gave up. He didn't want to talk about it and he didn't want to deal with it.
Why that's relevant is because I felt I had a good marriage even with the sporadic and often unemotional sex. We had other things that made up for that. (I thought.) I felt like I was the one who made all the concessions while he had all these "rules". (When, where, how, how often....)
I could have lived the rest of my life not knowing that he cheated on me, or turned his back on me to visit Pornland several times a week, while leading me to believe he just had a "low sex drive" all these years.
And he waited until I went through menopause to mention how "unhappy" he was and how he felt I was "never attractive" to him. (Really? Why did he go out with me for six years, then eventually marry and stay with me for 22+ more?)
Love can overcome a lot of things.
I accepted it. I accepted who he was.
I believed he was DOING THE BEST HE COULD.
What upset me was not that he couldn't do BETTER, it was that he was NOT giving me what I deserved as his wife, and he was lying to me about it.
If it was really a case of sexual dysfunction over which he had no control, I would have been OK with that, as I have been all these years. Again, I love the guy. That's why I keep getting on Grey's case!
PS: Don't believe that porn doesn't destroy marriages when it takes over. It absolutely DOES.--GG
I think the best thing you could do, Grey, is step back from this site, put down all the books, stop thinking about trying to get her to change, and just roll with what is happening. For a good long while, like 6 months. See where it goes, let her set the pace or lack thereof, and plan on probably having no sex for 6 months.
Your anxiety seems to be driven by looking ahead to predict the future. If you can just let it go for 6 months, maybe that will give her the space and comfort to relax and figure things out.
But get busy during the 6 months, being an independent interesting person who is not consumed by thoughts of how to be uberhusband and how to get her to change her libido. RELAX.
The grip you have on this issue is probably going to hurt you in the long run.
In 6 months, if you haven't brought it up one single time, and if you've been interesting and independent and fulfilled, then I think you could ask if you could listen to each other about the topic of sex and see how each other feels about it.
I think the best thing you could do, Grey, is step back from this site, put down all the books, stop thinking about trying to get her to change, and just roll with what is happening. For a good long while, like 6 months. See where it goes, let her set the pace or lack thereof, and plan on probably having no sex for 6 months.
Your anxiety seems to be driven by looking ahead to predict the future. If you can just let it go for 6 months, maybe that will give her the space and comfort to relax and figure things out.
But get busy during the 6 months, being an independent interesting person who is not consumed by thoughts of how to be uberhusband and how to get her to change her libido. RELAX.
The grip you have on this issue is probably going to hurt you in the long run.
In 6 months, if you haven't brought it up one single time, and if you've been interesting and independent and fulfilled, then I think you could ask if you could listen to each other about the topic of sex and see how each other feels about it.
6 months?
I don't think not WANTING to wait 6 months to have sex again means I don't love my wife.
Maybe you're right. Maybe what we had before we were married with all the sex was an illusion and I can't handle it and we weren't meant to be together-------no matter how happy she is, and she truly is, I still want to have sex with my wife and she doesn't want sex now that she's married. Kinda makes me wish we just kept dating forever instead of marrying now when you put it like that.
Grey,
I don't think Adinva meant that you should stop "wanting" it for six months.
That ain't gonna happen!
I think what she meant was---and I agree--- all the things you're doing to "fix" it HAVE NOT HELPED.
You don't even know what the problem IS.
You're very fixated on your own needs, no matter what.
Now it sounds like you're ready to hang it up based on PURE SPECULATION on your part.
The fact is, you have NO IDEA what your wife is really thinking or going through.
And until you calm down enough to allow her to open up to you,
YOU ARE MAKING THE SITUATION WORSE.
If you want to believe you're "not meant to be together" because your wife is going through something and you guess that it was just "getting married" that broke your awesome sex life prior, then go ahead and base your actions on that.
I'm pretty sure you'll regret that one.
That is, if you really love your WIFE, not just what she does for you or how she makes you feel..
--GG
Grey,
I don't think Adinva meant that you should stop "wanting" it for six months.
That ain't gonna happen!
I think what she meant was---and I agree--- all the things you're doing to "fix" it HAVE NOT HELPED.
You don't even know what the problem IS.
You're very fixated on your own needs, no matter what.
Now it sounds like you're ready to hang it up based on PURE SPECULATION on your part.
The fact is, you have NO IDEA what your wife is really thinking or going through.
And until you calm down enough to allow her to open up to you,
YOU ARE MAKING THE SITUATION WORSE.
If you want to believe you're "not meant to be together" because your wife is going through something and you guess that it was just "getting married" that broke your awesome sex life prior, then go ahead and base your actions on that.
I'm pretty sure you'll regret that one.
That is, if you really love your WIFE, not just what she does for you or how she makes you feel..
--GG
But I haven't done anything to "fix" it.
You have to understand, I brought it up once. ONCE. After feeling so incredibly lonely and losing sleep every night for weeks.
In the meantime, everything I was doing right as a partner I've been reaffirmed or adjusted to be even better at thanks to the books I've been reading and my own therapy.
I don't understand. I'm not "fixated" on my own needs so much as I come here for support and advice for the one need that is incredibly important to me that I can't talk to my wife about because she doesn't want it and feels "pressured" when I did bring it up once. I mean, I don't understand the logic--------forget my needs? I CAN'T stop wanting sex. I wish I could.
But that seems inherently unfair. After all, I'm not stopping doing my part to meet her needs, even exceeding them. I'm not a jerk about MY NEEDS not being met, but I have to accept that marriage isn't 50-50 and keep being nice about it? Is Michele really that wrong about people wanting to have sex with a partner who had plenty of sex before they married?
I don't think it's fair to say I have "NO IDEA" what my wife is going through. We talk about it, and she's seen doctors, and I at least have SOME idea what she's going through.
We were out this weekend, again out past 3 AM which she finds the energy for when she wants to "party," and a friend of ours, a psychologist no less, is going through menopause. She was having hot flashes. We talked about what it's like and how it affects her and how long it's been going on. To say that my wife doesn't experience any of the symptoms of menopause (as a result of already having gone through it) has to mean I have at least some idea about what my wife is or isn't going through.
And meanwhile, what am I going through? I keep hearing my needs don't matter, that's all it sounds like. I can't imagine anyone ever asking any one of my wife's needs to "wait for six months because you love him anyway," know what I mean?
I DO love my wife. And not being wanted to have sex HURTS. It hurts. It [censored]. Six months of being happy without sex and suppressing my needs for sex (and praying every night I don't have another wet dream) sounds like changing the marriage to a permanently sexless marriage. After all, what happens if I bring up sex in six months? That's a very long time----I can't imagine the pressure that would put on her just to bring it up. "Hey honey, Christmas is almost here, remember how I like sex and promised not to have sex with anyone else ever again? Our first anniversary was 12 weeks ago but I waited this long to ask anyway."
I'm frustrated. I come here, ONLY here, to talk about my wanting to have sex with my wife. I DO NOT let it affect my actions at home. If nothing else this place is my outlet so that I don't have to worry about doing any/all of the things I know NOT to do from Michele's books, like be resentful or mean or stop doing all the good things I do just because I feel unwanted as a result of my wife losing sexual interest in me. When people say I need to calm down or I'm making it worse at home, not only do I have to disagree, but I feel compelled to explain that my wife would argue our marriage has gotten BETTER in the last 8 weeks because of my actions, not worse. Try to think of it that way, then try to understand my position.
Again, I can't do anything, that's what it feels like. I have to supress my desires and put on a happy face. I can do that. But six months? That makes it sound like I'm agreeing to getting used to a completely sexless marriage. I wish I could say I can make myself not want to have sex with my wife, but not only do I think that's not possible, I don't even think that's healthy.
Then again, feeling alone and rejected for another six months isn't healthy, either.
Listen, I've gotten better about not feeling so rejected by a sexless marriage. It's true, believe it or not. I don't stay up the entire night worrying about how painful it is. And it's only been 3 months. After 9 months of working on it like I have been, won't I just be conditioning myself to abandon my wants and needs? Is there any point where I am ok to ask for my needs to be considered? What if that need was going to church every week? I'm sure asking my wife to church would make her feel pressured because she doesn't want to go, but I don't know how selfish people would see me as for that versus my passion to be physical with this gorgeous woman who was so physical for so long until all of a sudden it stopped.
My wife makes me feel good, to answer your question. But sex is healthy. It's good for you. I want it. I'm the only LTR she's turned down for it and that exascerbates the pain of it vanishing after marriage, only I keep it completely inside and only even think about it when I'm here writing. It's not wrong for me to want a sex life any more than it would be wrong for my wife to want flowers once in a while or a hug every day before leaving for work or a husband to cook and clean.
I haven't even read all of your response.
I got stuck on "I'm not trying to "fix" it."
Maybe you did only brought it up with her once.
But you have been going over and over it here, trying to find a way to "fix" it.
IT'S THE SAME THING.
You're fixated on this in a way that doesn't seem good for you, for her, or for your marriage.
I'm not saying you don't love her, not at all.
What I am trying to do is to get you to think about what that love REALLY MEANS and how it can be EXPRESSED if you have to put your sex life on hold.
(NOTE: I did NOT say, "Like like a Monk." Though from what I've read, some of those Monks found a workaround too.)
But I feel like I'm swimming upstream.
Every time advice or suggestions are offered, you find a way to explain them away or justify/defend how you're going about it.
Think about this ^^^ and look within.
Maybe this is not all about "fixing" her and your sex life, know what I mean?
I keep hearing about you and how neglected you feel and how hard it is for you.
I am going to read back and see how many references I can find that talk about how hard this might be FOR HER.
(Meanwhile, just because you "go through" menopause, doesn't mean that the symptoms and changes are not ongoing.)
Do yourself a favor and read about it more.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but you're just not hearing us.
I agree that not being able to share a great love life with your W is painful, and you do NOT have to accept a sexless marriage.
But right now the best thing you can do is do some serious soul-searching on your part.
What is a "Marriage" really?
-------------------------------
Stop focusing so much on her, what you want her to do, and how you can get her to do it.
It's all DBing anyway.
WE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT OUR SPOUSES DO!
The less we stop trying to manipulate them and the situation, the sooner things will make themselves clear.
---GG
PS: BTW, six/eight/twelve weeks does NOT a "sexless marriage" make.
(And as I recall, you had an encounter with her recently. I guess that didn't count?)
And since you haven't actually GONE six months without sexual contact, I wouldn't get too worked up about it. Even if you do, that's still not the end of the road.
Sh*t happens. Sometimes in a marriage, sex gets put on hold for a whole bunch of reasons.
No one ever died from it yet, especially if they have the love and affection and commitment from their spouse, which is something MOST of us here DO NOT.
In addition to no sex. FOR YEARS. Yup.
Sheesh.
Grey,
I feel for you, man -- really, I do. But I think you have to decide whether or not you can live like this, and if so, for how long. Because there's a very real possibility that this is "the new normal" for your wife.
There's an old joke that goes "I want sex 6-8x per month and my wife wants it once per month, so we compromised . . . we have sex once per month."
There's a lot of truth in that. The low-drive partner will always dictate the pace (or lack thereof) of the marriage's sex life. Each partner needs to decide what they can abide, and what they can't. Unless there's an underlying medical cause, or other marital problems impacting the SL, rarely do these things change much, in my experience.
But as I've said before, I may be the cynical "low test score" you want to throw out on this subject.
For the record, I don't think you're being unfair here. If your wife's primary LL was, say, "quality time," I don't think anyone would fairly suggest that she "just get over it" if you withheld quality time from her for six months.
Starsky
I do agree with Starsky that if it's just a case of mis-matched libidos, then that's something you need to decide that you can live with, or not.
My H and I were mismatched that way, him on the lower side, but I loved him and decided it was something I could live with because there was so much more to our R than that.
(There is more to that story if you want the gory details in my thread.)
My point is only that there may well BE an underlying physical cause considering her history, something she is unwilling to share right now for whatever reason.
(I have gone through some physical "female" issues myself and I did NOT want to share these with my H because I felt it would be a turn-off. It made for some weird times.)
I'm still waiting to see if she shares something with you when she feels it's safe to do so.
I hope I'm right because perhaps it will be something transient and fixable by medical means.
----GG
I haven't even read all of your response.
I got stuck on "I'm not trying to "fix" it."
Maybe you did only brought it up with her once.
But you have been going over and over it here, trying to find a way to "fix" it.
IT'S THE SAME THING.
You're fixated on this in a way that doesn't seem good for you, for her, or for your marriage.
I'm not saying you don't love her, not at all.
What I am trying to do is to get you to think about what that love REALLY MEANS and how it can be EXPRESSED if you have to put your sex life on hold.
(NOTE: I did NOT say, "Like like a Monk." Though from what I've read, some of those Monks found a workaround too.)
But I feel like I'm swimming upstream.
Every time advice or suggestions are offered, you find a way to explain them away or justify/defend how you're going about it.
Think about this ^^^ and look within.
Maybe this is not all about "fixing" her and your sex life, know what I mean?
I keep hearing about you and how neglected you feel and how hard it is for you.
I am going to read back and see how many references I can find that talk about how hard this might be FOR HER.
(Meanwhile, just because you "go through" menopause, doesn't mean that the symptoms and changes are not ongoing.)
Do yourself a favor and read about it more.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but you're just not hearing us.
I agree that not being able to share a great love life with your W is painful, and you do NOT have to accept a sexless marriage.
But right now the best thing you can do is do some serious soul-searching on your part.
What is a "Marriage" really?
-------------------------------
Stop focusing so much on her, what you want her to do, and how you can get her to do it.
It's all DBing anyway.
WE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT OUR SPOUSES DO!
The less we stop trying to manipulate them and the situation, the sooner things will make themselves clear.
---GG
PS: BTW, six/eight/twelve weeks does NOT a "sexless marriage" make.
(And as I recall, you had an encounter with her recently. I guess that didn't count?)
And since you haven't actually GONE six months without sexual contact, I wouldn't get too worked up about it. Even if you do, that's still not the end of the road.
Sh*t happens. Sometimes in a marriage, sex gets put on hold for a whole bunch of reasons.
No one ever died from it yet, especially if they have the love and affection and commitment from their spouse, which is something MOST of us here DO NOT.
In addition to no sex. FOR YEARS. Yup.
Sheesh.
Yes, because I thought it was something that could be fixed or changed, albeit after listening to Michele and reading her books.
Then I came here and the advice I get is don't change it, wait 6 months then either you'll be ok with a sexless marriage or you should leave your wife you selfish creep.
think about what that love REALLY MEANS and how it can be EXPRESSED if you have to put your sex life on hold.
I've done that. I do that. I LIKE doing that.
I also LIKE sex. It still feels like an allegation that my wife's needs aren't being met, or that my needs simply aren't as important, regardless of whether or not my wife's needs are being me to any degree including in abundance?
I'm not trying to be confrontational but I think that's how it's being taken, that's all. I just don't understand the logic. Michele says it's ok to want to have sex, but I don't want a sexless marriage no matter how much my wife and I love each other.
You keep saying how hard this must be for her.
I want you to listen to this part very closely. I'm afraid the assumption will still be that something is "missing" and I'm doing something inherently wrong, but I'll try anyway; my wife is happy.
I know, I know, OF COURSE I can't say that. And I even understand that I can't expect anyone to believe it when she says it to me or in the ways we show it to each other. With that said, when you ask if I can imagine "how hard this must be FOR HER," I feel compelled to ask you to at least try to consider IT'S NOT HARD FOR HER.
I think she thinks I just got over it, like the advice makes it sound here (go weeks/months/years without your need {sex} and without bringing it up) because I don't show that I want anything and I haven't stopped meeting her needs, spending time with her, listening, and putting my needs in the closet for now again.
It's not hard for her because on her end everything seems cool and on my end I'm not telling her anything about sex because everyone says not to. She doesn't know this is a problem for me because I don't tell her or ask her for sex. She
won't know this is a problem because I need to wait another six months before even thinking about mentioning it again.
It would be hard for her if I resented her, or acted any differently, or begged her for sex, or if we were having sex but she didn't think I was being passionate enough, or if I was ignoring her needs, or if I was being clingy, or if I didn't have my own life and friends and hobbies, or anything else I read from anyone else here and in books, etc.
I've read about menopause. I've talked to my wife. I've talked to doctors. You can't hide hot flashes, but it feels like nobody can imagine my wife isn't going through crazy changes despite not being in menopause. Either she's outright lying to me AND I'm blind to it or I'm at least partially right. Again, I don't mean to be confrontational, it just feels like I keep getting told the only answer is I'm wrong about her changes.
And it all ends with "wait six months" again. I don't get it. That just stinks. It doesn't feel like it's the answer because I can't imagine not fulfilling any one of my wife's needs for six months and her NOT CARING about that. Then again, my wife wouldn't want that to happen to me if she knew, just as I wouldn't either with any of her needs. Isn't that the point? She wants to know, but does she really?
It feels like the ultimate catch 22---------I can't talk to her about it because then that makes "pressure" to meet a need only I have, and I can't hope to be ok with a sexless marriage because I can't PERMANENTLY take away my desire to have sex with my wife (I've DRAMATICALLY reduced my sex drive, believe it or not, as a result of not wanting to pressure my wife to have sex just because I want to have sex).
So six months. K. I guess I'll try that and hope for the best.
Grey,
"Then I came here and the advice I get is don't change it, wait 6 months then either you'll be ok with a sexless marriage or you should leave your wife you selfish creep."I don't think this is what anyone has said AT ALL.
And I certainly never called you a "selfish creep".
Not anything I would ever say. (Except to my H and that's a different story.)
I think you are a husband who loves his wife and is scared and frustrated with a situation he never planned for and is unprepared to deal with.
I'm just trying to give you a different perspective.
Believe it or not, I am trying to help you.
Sorry if we're getting our signals crossed.
The flip side of not trying to find a way to fix this by your actions/inactions is not just waiting six months to see if anything changes and then hanging it up.
There is a middle ground.
I think what most posters have been saying is, try and chill out a little.
Take the focus off sex for awhile, look at what's right between you.
I feel tense just reading about your frustrations... really I do.
It's too much, too frantic and it hasn't abated at all since you started posting.
Meanwhile, figure out what you can and can't live with.
Make sure you have ALL the facts before you make an irrevocable decision about your future with your W.
But--- please don't put words in my mouth.
I've got my foot in there most of the time anyway, so there's no more room.
---GG
Grey,
I feel for you, man -- really, I do. But I think you have to decide whether or not you can live like this, and if so, for how long. Because there's a very real possibility that this is "the new normal" for your wife.
There's an old joke that goes "I want sex 6-8x per month and my wife wants it once per month, so we compromised . . . we have sex once per month."
There's a lot of truth in that. The low-drive partner will always dictate the pace (or lack thereof) of the marriage's sex life. Each partner needs to decide what they can abide, and what they can't. Unless there's an underlying medical cause, or other marital problems impacting the SL, rarely do these things change much, in my experience.
But as I've said before, I may be the cynical "low test score" you want to throw out on this subject.
For the record, I don't think you're being unfair here. If your wife's primary LL was, say, "quality time," I don't think anyone would fairly suggest that she "just get over it" if you withheld quality time from her for six months.
Starsky
I think that's what I'm really afraid of. How much can I take? I don't think it's sex twice a year, that's all. Michele (and everyone else) suggests sex less than ten times a year or so is sexless.
And I don't want that.
And I can't handle that.
It's not that I'm unwilling to change or understand that libidos drop as we age or other things, but yes, sex is very important to me.
I knew sex was important enough to me that it had to be part of my partnership. I knew I wasn't willing to take the risk of a sexless marriage by being with a partner with no sex drive.
And that's the rub-------I made sure that wasn't the case and that my wife liked sex often and didn't have any weird hang-ups that might signal she would not have a sex drive. My wife loved sex. To me, that was great. I can handle her past sex life and previous marriage. Frankly, it helped reinforce that the need for sex
I knew I had before proposing marriage was more than just ok---it was a mutually beneficial part of our relationship.
And then we married, and now it's not a mutually beneficial part of our relationship, I'm looking a sexless marriage and I'm afraid the reality is I can't do it. I love her. She loves me. And I can't live in a sexless marriage.
I guess that's something I have to think a lot more about over the next six months. I like the joke, but having sex once per month is too little for me. I know that now. I don't know what that says about me, but I'm afraid I do know what that says about us.
(I have gone through some physical "female" issues myself and I did NOT want to share these with my H because I felt it would be a turn-off. It made for some weird times.)
I'm still waiting to see if she shares something with you when she feels it's safe to do so.
I hope I'm right because perhaps it will be something transient and fixable by medical means.
She's shared a lot. Even I have been surprised, but she does and I love her for that. She felt safe enough to sit down and talk to me about it, only what she said wasn't that she feels bad or lost her sex drive or needs x or doesn't get enough y, etc. I wrote about some of those times before just so we know we're on the same page about her ability to talk to me. I sincerely, truly believe she feels she can (and does) talk to me about even her medical issues. Also, she's more comfortable and aware than most about people about having physiological conversations, probably a result of the cancer.
A caveat, I grew up in medicine, studied medicine, worked in clinics and hopsitals but abandoned medicine in 2001 for my art career. No, that doesn't mean I know everyithing about women and menopause or anything my wife is every going through, but between what I've learned, what I've seen, what I've been told, and observations about my wife, I don't think it's illogical to at least suggest my wife is not having female problems or physical changes that would be a turn off for me.
"She's shared a lot. Even I have been surprised, but she does and I love her for that. She felt safe enough to sit down and talk to me about it, only what she said wasn't that she feels bad or lost her sex drive or needs x or doesn't get enough y, etc."
So---what did she say, exactly? It doesn't sound like she said she lost her sex drive...
Also, for the record, I do appreciate your help, GG & Starsky, et al. I do. I'm 99% of the time ok--------it's only when I think about sex or come here to think about the situation that it's a problem and I feel frustrated and scared. I can't pretend I'm not afraid the ultimate result could be that she wants a sexless marriage and I would have to leave because sex is too important to me. I can admit that sex is that important to me, but I can't pretend I'm ok labeling our divorce as a result of me simply wanting sex more than a sexless marriage by definition. All of a sudden I'm the bad guy if that's what happens------"he left me because I wouldn't have sex with him as much as he wanted" is what it feels like.
"She's shared a lot. Even I have been surprised, but she does and I love her for that. She felt safe enough to sit down and talk to me about it, only what she said wasn't that she feels bad or lost her sex drive or needs x or doesn't get enough y, etc."
So---what did she say, exactly? It doesn't sound like she said she lost her sex drive...
No, she didn't say she lost her sex drive, but that doesn't mean she didn't. She just...lost it. Like, doesn't think about it to say she lost it, know what I mean? And
I can't be the one to ask about it because that would add pressure.
She said her neuropathy had gotten worse, she talks to me before and after every doctor visit, she is getting another regular ECG scan again soon, she is having a specialist/endocrinologist test her blood next month because she's so tired (she's a diabetic but she loves sweets and pasta and bread and hates vegetables). She talks about being tired and wanting to fix that. It's kinda frustrating because I think she's not doing anything to fix it, such as eating right, excercising, and she'll still stay out way past midnight if she's partying. But I do what I can like letting her sleep in late on the weekends, I get up every day with the dogs so she can get more rest and I don't take it personally when she goes to be before me every night or passes out in the middle of doing, well, anything.
Grey,
I believe strongly that you need to have a good old fashioned "heart to heart" talk with your wife. You need to spill your guts on what is eating at you. If you think you have already had one, then it is time for another. Pronto.
Do you know what is seen over and over on this site?
It is when the betrayed comes on here and is in shock and disbelief that their spouse "suddenly" wants out.
Do you know what the BS often says to people on here?
Why didn't they tell me they were unhappy? If they would have told me I would have done anything to change.
Having a heart to heart talk when a spouse has already decided to leave is usually not wise, however that isn't the case here.
Opening up and having a deep talk to your spouse about an issue as important as this one is to you is sometimes not only necessary, but REQUIRED.
Your wife NEEDS to know and hear how you REALLY feel.
If not you are a prime candidate for an affair somewhere down the road. If that would happen, then you will be using the excuse of "you wouldn't have sex with me".. she will then wonder why you didn't just tell her so that she had a chance to make it right.
Just my honest opinion.
Grey,
Can you give more details about other conditions in your M?
Who does most of the housework, employment, who is the higher wage earner, what were you doing when you met, when you married... etc.
She has some health issues; does that mean you pick up a lot of the slack as you said above (with the dogs). Does she work full time?
Does she have an EX, kids?
What are things like with your families?
Everyone happy about your marriage, considering the--prejudice-- about younger men and older women? (Unfair, but real.)
Any other stressors?
Think about what ELSE might have changed, you know?
---GG
Now I catch myself in "fix-it mode" so I'm going to stop.
This is stuff for you to think about and process.
Share if you like.
Grey,
Can you give more details about other conditions in your M?
Who does most of the housework, employment, who is the higher wage earner, what were you doing when you met, when you married... etc.
I think we both do “fair” housework. I do more housework, but that’s because I like the house cleaner. She’s just naturally more messy. We earn about the same financially and we were doing pretty much what we’re doing now when we met (same jobs).
She has some health issues; does that mean you pick up a lot of the slack as you said above (with the dogs). Does she work full time?
Yes, and I understand she needs more rest. One of the first things in one of Michele’s books talks about making sure your partner with the lower libido gets plenty of rest because being tired (regardless of the reason) doesn’t help anybody want to do anything. I don’t take it personally when she falls asleep early or wants to sleep past noon on weekends. She does work full time, 40 hours a week.
Does she have an EX, kids?
Yes, but he was mostly invisible (rather than outright abusive), they don’t talk at all, and they divorced 17 years ago. One kid, 23, male, he’s great, works a lot, we barely see him but they’re about as close as can be and he was the first person I went to when I was thinking about proposing. He's definitely a mamma's boy, doesn't see his dad but maybe twice a year. The ex is not part of any drama at all in our marriage whatsoever, barely exists to any of us, really.
What are things like with your families?
She only has her brother and sister left----her brother lives very far away and they love each other but aren’t super close. Her sister lives here in town, love her, we don’t see her too often but we’re all close. My family lives here, she loves them all and they love her, we do dinner at my parents’ house about twice a month, sometimes more.
Everyone happy about your marriage, considering the--prejudice-- about younger men and older women? (Unfair, but real.)
The age part is truthfully better than a non-issue----it’s actually a good thing. We both like it, in fact. I always knew I did, but it’s actually pretty amazing how that part worked out.
Any other stressors?
Think about what ELSE might have changed, you know?
This is the trickiest part. I've tried to think and I can't come up with anything and that's what really bugs me. I've asked and that didn't really bring up anything. If I had done something really bad or wasn't meeting one of her needs as best as I can tell, I'd at least have something I could clearly change.
I moved my art studio home several months ago, but I wasn't spending as much time in the studio at the time anyway; it's just about the only thing I can think of. Money isn't flowing in like a river, but it also isn't that much different than before (we owe more after the wedding but finances are rarely an issue).
She turned 50 in April but barely noticed, and if anything she seemed to enjoy it with lots of events and stuff.
I take it back, one thing has changed-----puppies. We got two puppies in March, the same day I bought her the first new car she ever had. They were born on her son's birthday.
All three of our dogs died within 3 months of each other, 1 during our engagement) and we had to wait until the time was right to get dogs again, meaning time to train them and spend time with them, but we knew that would be after the wedding.
It was the longest either one of us had gone without a dog in the house.
We both wanted two dogs and we're very happy with them. She loves them so much. I wonder if I've been replaced by them somehow? At first I thought she was more tired because of getting up with the dogs, so I eliminated that part and I let her sleep in every time now (after all, I'm 15 years younger and non-diabetic, I have more energy by nature so it's ok).
Me getting up with the dogs and making her breakfast while she sleeps in hasn't really seemed to help her sleep (or our sex life) at all, but it probably helped the marriage out some from her perspective.
They don't sleep in the bed with us (I could feel that question coming!). They're good dogs, very loving, a good size for us rather than being too big and too energetic.
I'm afraid this might sound insensitive, but I have a question for a woman's point of view---------would having new puppies in the house have any effect on a woman's libido? For example, do women feel more motherly and less womanly (?) due to preparing food and nurturing a small animal?
I'm a good dad to the dogs, which I thought would also be a nice turn-on for my wife as a side effect. I can't say for sure if the puppies have anything to do with this (the problem existed before we got them), but it hasn't helped and it's the only outlying major life change I can think of for either one of us.
Well last night she went to bed without kissing me. Fun. SHE is the one that usually really likes that. I hadn't slept right in a few days and I was sure I would sleep last night.
Instead I couldn't sleep and couldn't help but feel completely alone. Six months isn't going to happen.
I feel so alone.
I can't FAKE it for six months. I am fine most of the time, believe it or not, but when I can't sleep I am sitting there next to this person who doesn't want me and it IS awful------it's not that I can't handle not having sex, it's that I hurt and feel unwanted and I can't even talk to her about it without "pressure" being the #1 word.
But six months? I can't stand ONE NIGHT without sleep feeling like this. It affects me. It DOES make me less wanting to buy flowers and cook dinner and all the things I continue to do to make it look like absolutely nothing is wrong and not resent her or get mad or ask for sex or care about my needs or how I feel.
So I come here, not because I feel like I'm going to get a revelation in advice but because I can't just keep it inside. I can't tell my best friend, my wife. I told her this morning in a text I feel unwanted and alone and humiliated to tell her yesterday she can text me or sending pictures makes me feel good and that I can't tell anything anymore and I'm afraid to talk to her about anything I have ANY needs for (like why any time she takes off any clothes or has a piece of junk mail or napkin it always all ends up on the floor or the countertops, etc.)
Wow . . . needy much?
And I say that as a SSM guy myself, who gets it.
Sorry, but "dirty clothes on the floor or counter" doesn't qualify as a major love language, or even a "need."
Wow . . . needy much?
And I say that as a SSM guy myself, who gets it.
Sorry, but "dirty clothes on the floor or counter" doesn't qualify as a major love language, or even a "need."
I didn't say it did.
What I said was I can't TALK to her about it without it becoming "pressure."
And no, I'm not needy. If anything, she is. And I don't mind giving her what she needs------in fact, I enjoy it.
But what if what she needed was what I'm here for? Am I still the jerk? That's all it feels like-------I FEEL upset and alone, and all I hear is "wait six months." I don't think just because anyone has been in a "worse" situation means I have to purposely put myself in that position before it's ok to feel things I can't help feeling.
Screw it, you're right Starsky, if sex is important to me I should just start thinking of how to leave. I don't want to but I think you're right about this and if it is me being "needy" then I married the wrong person to meet my needs, simple as that.
Screw it, you're right Starsky, if sex is important to me I should just start thinking of how to leave. I don't want to but I think you're right about this and if it is me being "needy" then I married the wrong person to meet my needs, simple as that.
I never said that you wanting a healthy sex life with your wife was being "needy."
I characterized your above post and reaction to the last 24 hours as coming across as needy.
However, based on your patience for dealing with the SSM issues and a woman turning 50 and whatever else she may have going on, I tend to agree that you have neither the patience, temperament nor empathy for working thru it with her. If you cannot place your own needs on hold for even 24 HOURS without needing to cling to her, then you probably have no hope of doing the hard work necessary to find a potential solution to this.
Starsky
"However, based on your patience for dealing with the SSM issues and a woman turning 50 and whatever else she may have going on, I tend to agree that you have neither the patience, temperament nor empathy for working thru it with her. If you cannot place your own needs on hold for even 24 HOURS without needing to cling to her, then you probably have no hope of doing the hard work necessary to find a potential solution to this."
EXACTLY!
Oh and a friendly warning. The next person you end up with whom you think is "perfect" may develop this same thing. The decision for you is if you are willing to keep going through a string of relationships to fulfill your sexual needs like you did in your past.
Really youre crying about something that most of us on here dont even have dude. You live with your W right now and it isnt like she is all the time angry with you. Youre just mad because you cant have sex with her. Thats pathetic. I wish that was my only issue. Im sure most people on here do. Now youre ready to run when you havent even been doing this for a month yet??? I have to be excited when my W agrees to go on a date with me this weekend. You are looking past all of the positives that you have. Youre a pathetic person in general.
Screw it, you're right Starsky, if sex is important to me I should just start thinking of how to leave. I don't want to but I think you're right about this and if it is me being "needy" then I married the wrong person to meet my needs, simple as that.
I never said that you wanting a healthy sex life with your wife was being "needy."
I characterized your above post and reaction to the last 24 hours as coming across as needy.
However, based on your patience for dealing with the SSM issues and a woman turning 50 and whatever else she may have going on, I tend to agree that you have neither the patience, temperament nor empathy for working thru it with her. If you cannot place your own needs on hold for even 24 HOURS without needing to cling to her, then you probably have no hope of doing the hard work necessary to find a potential solution to this.
Starsky
I think you're misinterpreting my patience.
I can (and have) gone much longer than 24 hours without feeling alone or upset about having a sexless marriage, without bringing it up, without pressuring her, without expecting her to change or care about my needs. Give me at least SOME credit because I've worked hard at it and our relationship has gotten even better as a result.
But at some point I can't
completely forget and not feel lonely or unwanted ot not think about sex. Hell, even when I thought I was able to, I had a wet dream. It was horrible, crushed my ego, felt like a secret I had to keep.
For example, last night I couldn't sleep. I was exhausted, but couldn't fall asleep. It wasn't that I couldn't sleep
because I felt alone and upset about my sexless marriage, but it is that crazy or "impatient" of me that it happens?
Hell, sex MAKES me sleepy--------did you know when men have sex it releases a chemical that makes them sleepy? Women don't have that, but it's a physiological truth in men. It's like, not only do I want/need sex, but nobody would say I don't need sleep, and here next to me is my beautiful wife who doesn't want me to lose sleep but doesn't want to have sex with her husband. Can you not see how that doesn't make me feel BETTER?
Like, you're telling me to forget about my need of sex. HOW?! I've tried; it's not like I haven't tried, and most of the time
I've gotten very good about it, but I KNOW in six months I won't be able to stop myself from having feelings of doubt and rejection and hurt. I didn't plan on feeling that way last night------
it just happened and it hurt, not because I'm not patient.I'm a good looking guy and I'm nice-------women flirt with me, or at least it feels like flirting because it feels so good in a way I miss getting from my wife. I don't reciprocate, I am afraid to say anything to most women now, but when someone says "hey handsome" or something like that I can't help but feel like I wish my wife actually thought about me that way.
Really youre crying about something that most of us on here dont even have dude. You live with your W right now and it isnt like she is all the time angry with you. Youre just mad because you cant have sex with her. Thats pathetic. I wish that was my only issue. Im sure most people on here do. Now youre ready to run when you havent even been doing this for a month yet??? I have to be excited when my W agrees to go on a date with me this weekend. You are looking past all of the positives that you have. Youre a pathetic person in general.
Thanks for your help?
Oh and a friendly warning. The next person you end up with whom you think is "perfect" may develop this same thing. The decision for you is if you are willing to keep going through a string of relationships to fulfill your sexual needs like you did in your past.
Has anyone read any of Michele's books?
Why is she the only one saying it's ok for people to want sex and people have sex into their 90's instead of their 40's?
I was meeting my wife's needs. I adapted to meet them better, both before and after marriage, both before and after the marriage became sex-starved. Michele says it doesn't matter if it's the man or the woman and that you don't just quit or be the ultimate patient person while not just hiding your pain but lying about it and spending more money and time and everything BUT physical touch on your partner.
I don't get it. I thought what Michele said made a lot of sense.
Like, you're telling me to forget about my need of sex. HOW?!
By focusing on your wife, and her current needs, unconditionally, for whatever period of time you feel you can do that.
You know, the same thing pretty much everybody has been telling you,
ad nauseum.Starsky
I think I should stress that your M is NOT sex-starved. You haven't had sex in a couple of weeks and you think it's the end of the world. Rather than working on her needs right now, you're just thinking of your own. I'm sure the health scare for her is more important than you getting your rocks off.
That's what everyone has been stressing to you. That M is for "in sickness and health". She's dealing with alot right now and you don't want to.
I think I should stress that your M is NOT sex-starved. You haven't had sex in a couple of weeks and you think it's the end of the world. Rather than working on her needs right now, you're just thinking of your own. I'm sure the health scare for her is more important than you getting your rocks off.
That's what everyone has been stressing to you. That M is for "in sickness and health". She's dealing with alot right now and you don't want to.
Rather than working on her needs right now...
This is the part that bothers me. Nobody is listening to that part. I work on her needs. I do. Her needs are met. She IS happy. I HAVE changed. I was good before, now I'm even better AND I don't bring up my needs, no matter how bad they hurt.
Most of the time,
I have been able to change myself to want less sex. But sometimes, there it is, whether I want to feel bad or not, and I can't help it. How can I meet her needs when she's asleep and I can't sleep, for example? It's not like I don't try to do other things, or that I'm asking for a magic pill to make her want sex again,
And by Michele's very definition, yes, the marriage is sex-starved (not to mention it's been more than a couple of weeks, but I understand the frustration with the people who have waited years being unhappy). By Michele's definition a sexless marriage is one where sex is an average of less than 10 times a year, and
I am hurt by the lack of physical affection we had last October. Same for women, right? Starving children in Somalia doesn't mean I don't or can't hurt from not being wanted, know what I mean? I know people have it worse, just as much as I hope this can be better.
So you've got experience, but you also weren't meeting your wife's needs it sounded like before. What did you do when you DID feel bad, in a way that my wife doesn't feel and wouldn't want me to feel? You worked on meeting your wife's needs, correct? Are there or were there any times where you WANTED or NEEDED anything, anything at all, but you were only focusing on your wife's needs and, if so, what did you do at those times and for how long? When I'm up at night and all of a sudden
I feel alone, what would you suggest I should do?
"This is the part that bothers me. Nobody is listening to that part. I work on her needs. I do. Her needs are met. She IS happy. I HAVE changed. I was good before, now I'm even better AND I don't bring up my needs, no matter how bad they hurt. "
Everyone is listening. You're not understanding what people are telling you. There wasn't a "problem" in your M . This is what M is like. You're going to have highs and lows. You as well as her. You have to have the PATIENCE to see how things go and act accordingly. It's great that she's happy. All that changing you're doing should be for you and not for her. If they make your life better, then great. But don't keep "expecting" that if you do 'A', that 'B' is going to happen. It's not what life is all about.
Your W has health issues. That's her number one concern. For an extreme example, what if you had cancer. Would that be top of your mind or would sex? You say you get frustrated because YOU FEEL she should do this and that. But the fact is that you ARE NOT the sick one. It's easy for you to make it sound so simple, but it isn't for her.
"When I'm up at night and all of a sudden I feel alone, what would you suggest I should do?"
Grow up and discover what M is all about. If you put all of your self-worth into sex and that if you don't have it for a couple of weeks, you "feel alone", then M isn't for you.
If you feel the need to do something, then talk to her about it without sounding needy. Tell her how you feel and come up with a compromise that both of you are comfortable with. That's how mature, adult M'd people act.
Grow up and discover what M is all about. If you put all of your self-worth into sex and that if you don't have it for a couple of weeks, you "feel alone", then M isn't for you.
I don't put all my self-worth into sex. I just know (and knew) it is important to me.
If I don't have sex more than a sexless marriage, I don't understand why Michele would write a book about dealing with it. I won't stay in a sexless marriage forever, if that helps.
You're right----it
is too important to my well being and esteem and life is just too damn short. How long will I wait? 1 year? 4 years? I'm going to at least wait until she tries something new or tries counseling or anything to show me that she's trying, but I AM patient, the problem is I keep telling myself not to feel hurt
by her when I truly feel hurt and alone and
can't help it. You can't do that for years without changing completely. If that's the case, I'd like if she changed so she didn't need me to do the lawn anymore. That would be nice.
I'm going to read the book again. It feels like I'm being told I don't belong in a marriage because of how I feel sometimes instead of how I act to my wife all the time.
Grey,
Please take what I say in the spirit in which it is given, because I honestly am trying--one last time---to help you see what we mean.
----------------------------------------------------
There is something about the way you have latched onto this issue, the "averages" per Michelle on SSM, the statistics, the way it seems you are missing the forest for the trees.
The way you seem to be missing the point about trying to see things from her persecutive "how can I meet her needs when she's asleep?" being a literal example of what I mean... sort of makes me think that putting yourself in her shoes--really doing that--is something that does not naturally.
There's something about the way you seem fixated, wanting a concrete answer, for things to conform in some way, "I do X and Y should happen",
"A marriage should be X, with sex this many times, on average", or it fits into this category or that.
It is ALL TOO FAMILIAR to me.
(The thing with the puppies affecting a woman's libido was kind of funny, but also disconcerting when I realized you were deadly serious. I also noticed you haven't responded to any of the humor offered up.)
In fact, you're deadly serious and extremely upset about this, way more than seems "average" to the rest of us.
So I'm just going to throw this out there and you take it if it rings a bell, or chuck it out the window.
But before you do, think about it really hard and maybe get more info before you tell me to stick my head in the oven. (JOKING!!
)
Some here on this board know I have ADD and mild Asperger's.
Now--I'm no doctor, not by a long shot, but I have many friends that fit that description and they are some of the coolest, kindest, most creative, interesting, (best looking!) people I know.
Some things you've said and the way you've said them, and the overall interpretation you're putting on things (very black/white/statistical/concrete/not being OK with things being open-ended and vague) is something I struggle with myself.
I'm not saying you have Asperger's/ADD, but just wondering if you'd ever heard that you deal with things a bit differently than the average person, or as a child?
For the record, I wasn't diagnosed until I was 43 and 50, and it was a shock. But it sure did explain an awful lot!
Same for some of my friends.
They were driving their spouses up the wall (NOT SAYING YOU ARE DOING THIS!) and just missing social cues, misinterpreting social interactions...
They have since gone and done all the self-tests, etc. and got it confirmed that they are, in fact, wired a bit differently.
Like me, they took advantage of this information and have improved their lives and relationships in general.
In my case it was really subtle and I compensate REALLY well. I didn't think it was affecting my marriage except in subtle ways, (H has ADD too, not Asperger's though), so we sort of "got" each other. It's all the same spectrum. But probably it has in some weird way. I'm not even sure it would be a negative, to tell you the truth. I am extremely loyal, serious sense of right and wrong. Completely trustworthy.
It's hard to get a sense for this in a forum like this, but I can pick people out pretty well in person. (Takes one to know one.) And your posts just seem---familiar. Maybe that's why I feel compelled to keep responding. I dunno.
Anyhow, before you go off on me and tell me there's nothing to it, do yourself a favor and take a few of the online tests, just for fun.
Then come back here and tell me I'm a donkey's behind....
But honestly?
I was reading your posts last night and it sort of popped out at me...
It won't fix your sex life, but it might give you some insight.
Then again, this is just a anonymous forum and I'm in no position to do anything other than share my thoughts, for what they're worth.
Good luck!
---GG
PS: If you have preconceived notions about people on the spectrum not succeeding in work or love or life, I might remind you that countless physicians, artists, musicians, scientists, visionaries, and some of the brightest people EVER have fallen somewhere on that same spectrum. Not just me.
Grey,
Please take what I say in the spirit in which it is given, because I honestly am trying--one last time---to help you see what we mean.
----------------------------------------------------
There is something about the way you have latched onto this issue, the "averages" per Michelle on SSM, the statistics, the way it seems you are missing the forest for the trees.
There's something about the way you seem fixated, wanting a concrete answer, for things to conform in some way, "I do X and Y should happen",
"A marriage should be X, with sex this many times, on average", or it fits into this category or that.
It is ALL TOO FAMILIAR to me.
(The thing with the puppies affecting a woman's libido was kind of funny, but also disconcerting when I realized you were deadly serious. I also noticed you haven't responded to any of the humor offered up.)
In fact, you're deadly serious and extremely upset about this, way more than seems "average" to the rest of us.
So I'm just going to throw this out there and you take it if it rings a bell, or chuck it out the window.
But before you do, think about it really hard and maybe get more info before you tell me to stick my head in the oven. (JOKING!!
)
Some here on this board know I have ADD and mild Asperger's.
Now--I'm no doctor, not by a long shot, but I have many friends that fit that description and they are some of the coolest, kindest, most creative, interesting, (best looking!) people I know.
Some things you've said and the way you've said them, and the overall interpretation you're putting on things (very black/white/statistical/concrete/not being OK with things being open-ended and vague) is something I struggle with myself.
I'm not saying you have Asperger's/ADD, but just wondering if you'd ever heard that you deal with things a bit differently than the average person, or as a child?
For the record, I wasn't diagnosed until I was 43 and 50, and it was a shock. But it sure did explain an awful lot!
Same for some of my friends.
They were driving their spouses up the wall (NOT SAYING YOU ARE DOING THIS!) and just missing social cues, misinterpreting social interactions...
They have since gone and done all the self-tests, etc. and got it confirmed that they are, in fact, wired a bit differently.
Like me, they took advantage of this information and have improved their lives and relationships in general.
In my case it was really subtle and I compensate REALLY well. I didn't think it was affecting my marriage except in subtle ways, (H has ADD too, not Asperger's though), so we sort of "got" each other. It's all the same spectrum. But probably it has in some weird way. I'm not even sure it would be a negative, to tell you the truth. I am extremely loyal, serious sense of right and wrong. Completely trustworthy.
It's hard to get a sense for this in a forum like this, but I can pick people out pretty well in person. (Takes one to know one.) And your posts just seem---familiar. Maybe that's why I feel compelled to keep responding. I dunno.
Anyhow, before you go off on me and tell me there's nothing to it, do yourself a favor and take a few of the online tests, just for fun.
Then come back here and tell me I'm a donkey's behind....
But honestly?
I was reading your posts last night and it sort of popped out at me...
It won't fix your sex life, but it might give you some insight.
Then again, this is just a anonymous forum and I'm in no position to do anything other than share my thoughts, for what they're worth.
Good luck!
---GG
Honestly, I'm looking for a way to deal with putting what I can't stop wanting on hold.
If there's a secret to not wanting sex, tell me. I'd cut that body part off if it would help, but I don't think it would to be honest. I don't think there
is anything to make desire disappear.
So instead I just want to handle it better. I've gotten much better about it. But when it's bad, all the nice letters I write don't help ME feel any better, know what I'm saying? When I struggle....bury it? I can do that...but how to not let it bother me
until I can actually not want sex anymore?I sincerely don't expect her to want sex just because I do dishes and write nice notes and rub her feet. I don't feel the expectation. It sounds like it's coming across that way, like if I do x she will do sex.
I DO, however, struggle to not sometimes want sex. Better than before? Absolutely. 100% gone? I'm afraid that will never happen (and I don't believe it should, either).
To be honest, when you mentioned the forest for the trees thing, I am afraid someone like Michele might tell me I'm being TOO compromising of my own needs and ONLY focusing on her needs. It's not that I'm clingy, it's that I've paid attention, listend to Michele and my wife, and I make points to deliberately show her love in many ways...and she doesn't, know what I mean? It doesn't have to be sex-------for example, maybe I wouldn't want sex if I just felt like my wife at least WANTED to want to have sex, or did any of the things I do for her to show her love, etc? I can HANDLE less sex more than it feels like I can handle the feelings I have from not being wanted and having sex once a season (because even then it feels more like it's "for me" rather than something she actually wants like she did before me).
Michele said a SSM can be any marriage where one partner craves more touch and/or sex. I don't want it every day, but by everyone else's definition too, it's sexless, right? That's not ok to mention? It helps me to hear things like that to know I'm not crazy or wrong to have these feelings of hurt I've never felt before----that alone helps me deal with it and suppress it more.
I just have to figure out what to do when I wake up at 3 AM and can't sleep and feel unwanted and have a desire I can't fulfil.
Some here on this board know I have ADD and mild Asperger's.
Now--I'm no doctor, not by a long shot, but I have many friends that fit that description and they are some of the coolest, kindest, most creative, interesting, (best looking!) people I know.
I listen to a radio show with a guy with Asperger's and I think I might have it, too, maybe even ADD. I'll ask my therapist---I was supposed to go today and as I walked in the door they said they had double-booked, but I will ask. Thanks GG!
Wow.
I'm glad I posted then, because I didn't want to upset you further...
Also good to know I wasn't imagining things!
What is the radio show? I'd love to hear it.
FTR: Getting a diagnosis was--for me--sort of sad because I saw how it had affected my life in ways that I would have handled differently had I known. But after a little while, it was a relief to know that there was a reason some things bothered me more (or less) than other people and that I wasn't lazy, crazy, or stupid.
Know I UNDERSTAND some of my personality "quirks" and although I have not shared the diagnosis with too many people (most wouldn't believe it anyway), the few people I did were ones like me, having a hard time of things and not knowing why.
It helped a lot with the spouses too, who thought their partners were not tuned in on the same frequency, usually fixated on hobbies/interests...they learned it was not a personality flaw or a lack of effort... just being "different"
I can tell you that my Apsie/ADD friends are the most fun with great collections of all kinds--and they know every little detail about every item; vintage cars, bicycles, instruments.... it's crazy. But we like it.
Let me know how it turns out for you, OK?
(Glad you're not p*ssed. You're frustrated enough right now.)
---GG
I just have to figure out what to do when I wake up at 3 AM and can't sleep and feel unwanted and have a desire I can't fulfil.
Go jerk off or something, then go back to bed.
"I don't put all my self-worth into sex. I just know (and knew) it is important to me. "
Yes you do put all your self-worth into sex. If you feel "alone" just for not having sex for a couple of weeks, then they are tied together.
"If I don't have sex more than a sexless marriage, I don't understand why Michele would write a book about dealing with it. I won't stay in a sexless marriage forever, if that helps. "
Wow you totally missed the point of my post and others'. You don't have a sexless M. You have a W that's sick right now but you can't seem to get that right now.
"You're right----it is too important to my well being and esteem and life is just too damn short. How long will I wait? 1 year? 4 years?"
You've been without it for a couple of weeks.
"I'm going to at least wait until she tries something new or tries counseling or anything to show me that she's trying, but I AM patient,"
Reading your posts, it's so obvious you're not.
"the problem is I keep telling myself not to feel hurt by her when I truly feel hurt and alone and can't help it."
Yes you CAN help it. That hurt that you feel? It's self-inflicted.
"You can't do that for years without changing completely. If that's the case, I'd like if she changed so she didn't need me to do the lawn anymore. That would be nice."
So you're comparing her sickness with a chore of not having to do the lawn any more. Nice.
"I'm going to read the book again. It feels like I'm being told I don't belong in a marriage because of how I feel sometimes instead of how I act to my wife all the time."
You keep saying you've "changed" but I'm not quite sure what you actually changed. She just needs compassion and understanding which you seem incapable of giving because of the thing between your legs.
Wow.
I'm glad I posted then, because I didn't want to upset you further...
Also good to know I wasn't imagining things!
What is the radio show? I'd love to hear it.
FTR: Getting a diagnosis was--for me--sort of sad because I saw how it had affected my life in ways that I would have handled differently had I known. But after a little while, it was a relief to know that there was a reason some things bothered me more (or less) than other people and that I wasn't lazy, crazy, or stupid.
Know I UNDERSTAND some of my personality "quirks" and although I have not shared the diagnosis with too many people (most wouldn't believe it anyway), the few people I did were ones like me, having a hard time of things and not knowing why.
It helped a lot with the spouses too, who thought their partners were not tuned in on the same frequency, usually fixated on hobbies/interests...they learned it was not a personality flaw or a lack of effort... just being "different"
I can tell you that my Apsie/ADD friends are the most fun with great collections of all kinds--and they know every little detail about every item; vintage cars, bicycles, instruments.... it's crazy. But we like it.
Let me know how it turns out for you, OK?
(Glad you're not p*ssed. You're frustrated enough right now.)
---GG
Sorry no real advice for Grey, but just wanted to say
GG you are an angel. :)What a kind heart you have!
Starsky
GG what, if you don't mind me asking, did the diagnosis for Asperger's do for you?
As best as I can tell it just means I/you/we see things differently. I may have a dozen friends that have it, but I don't feel like I'm missing anything in my relationship with them, even exes.
I mean, they don't give you medicine for Asperger's, right? It's like, I might be aware I see things differently, but I also am aware how things are and how "normal" people see the world----convincing anyone else, including a spouse, to understand how someone who thinks differently actually thinks probably wouldn't work with my wife because she has no empathy----I don't mean that in an outright bad way, but she's spontaneous by nature, 100%. Getting her to understand other people doesn't really work for her---------when people change, she shuts them out, permanently----people who were her best friends, or threw her a big wedding shower party and paid for it all, or people who wanted her in their wedding. Part of the reason I'm afraid to bring any of MY part up with her again is that I've seen how she rejects people completely and without remorse, people who didn't treat her badly (again, I'm not treating her badly or agruing over a SSM, I'm "hiding" my needs while continuing to act like nothing is wrong is how it feels and meeting her needs) and they still got completely dumped, for the lack of a better term.
She traveled the world with one friend, a really good friend, the one who knows more about her than anyone, the one I thought was best to come to first about choosing a ring for her. She doesn't "party" (she's 53) like my wife (50) and she used to for decades, and my wife doesn't want to have anything to do with her really. They didn't have a big fight or anything, they just lost things in common, life happened, and while her friend wants to stay friends and do dinner or sit by her pool, my wife dropped her. Same thing with the next best friend, who got engaged and wanted my wife to be in her wedding. She wouldn't even return the message, but came to me about how crazy she is to think she'd be in her wedding.
I'm not saying any of that to judge her----I'm saying it because I'm terrified of her doing to me what she's done to other people when I'm contemplating asking her to do something she doesn't want to do and listen. So I don't talk. I brought it up once and it was a nightmare. She doesn't read anything or talk to anyone about how to make a relationship work, so she doesn't know how, only the catch 22 is I can't tell her, either.
" GG what, if you don't mind me asking, did the diagnosis for Asperger's do for you?"
Grey,
It helped me understand how I process and perceive. Why some things seem harder than they need to be. Why being in certain situations really exhausts me.
It helped me build on my strengths and compensate better for my weaknesses. It allowed me to give myself permission to give myself a break when needed. I get overwhelmed easily, sensory stuff, social stuff.
I'm not shy--far from it--but I am an introvert at heart.
There is a LOT of great info out there that explains it much better than I can.
"As best as I can tell it just means I/you/we see things differently. I may have a dozen friends that have it, but I don't feel like I'm missing anything in my relationship with them, even exes."
There is a lot more to it than this. And I'm not sure if you meant that them having Asperger's doesn't affect your relationship with them, or that you feel you're not affected by perhaps having it yourself.
The fact that you have so many Aspie friends is telling in and of itself. Most "normal" people find them very trying indeed.
You might not feel anything different.
It's all we know.
But "regular people" can often pick up on it, even though they might not know what "it" is.
When we're missing something, we're missing it, right?
If we KNEW we were missing it, we wouldn't be missing it, you know?
Think about WHY the exes might be exes.
For example, you have not once picked up on any of my quirky attempts at humor. I tend to think that, like some other things, you are, in fact "missing" important cues.
"I mean, they don't give you medicine for Asperger's, right? It's like, I might be aware I see things differently, but I also am aware how things are and how "normal" people see the world----
Trust me, none of us can know what it's like to be someone else.
When I finally understood HOW different my perceptions and ways of thinking were from regular folks, it was a shock.
"You mean everyone is not like this inside their heads????"
I really was shocked, and for a while, resentful.
It seemed everyone else had it SOOOO easy.
Now I don't feel that way. I see that I have many gifts that completely outweigh having to struggle a bit in other areas.
convincing anyone else, including a spouse, to understand how someone who thinks differently actually thinks probably wouldn't work with my wife because she has no empathy----
It's NOT about teaching others how to compensate for you.
Getting a diagnosis is so you can be better at being yourself.
More effective, more comfortable, more flexible.
Other people might know about it, or not.
Most people do NOT know about me, including my family. They would never believe it, quite honestly. As I said, I compensate REALLY WELL, and I have since childhood.
Making friends and coping socially were very important to me, so I learned and learned, and my parents instilled good social skills in us... but trust me---NONE OF IT CAME NATURALLY.
It is a testament to my sheer will that most people cannot tell.
I don't mean that in an outright bad way, but she's spontaneous by nature, 100%. Getting her to understand other people doesn't really work for her---------when people change, she shuts them out, permanently--"
"I've seen how she rejects people completely and without remorse, people who didn't treat her badly..."
"She traveled the world with one friend, a really good friend, the one who ....They didn't have a big fight or anything, they just lost things in common, life happened, and while her friend wants to stay friends and do dinner or sit by her pool, my wife dropped her."
"Same thing with the next best friend, who got engaged and wanted my wife to be in her wedding. She wouldn't even return the message, but came to me about how crazy she is to think she'd be in her wedding."
"I'm not saying any of that to judge her----I'm saying it because I'm terrified of her doing to me what she's done to other people when I'm contemplating asking her to do something she doesn't want to do"
All this stuff concerns me. You never mentioned this about her before.
This is a red flag to me.
What do you make of this?
---GG
PS: The first part of your post was in response to my post, but then it was right back to her. You sound stuck on this loop. That's an Aspie thing too! Do yourself a big favor and follow through on this with yourself. You're already seeing a counselor (can I ask why?), so it's a great opportunity to bring it up. You have nothing to lose, only insight to gain.
K, I hear on on the "Aspie" thing. I am going to therapy anyway so I'll ask my doctor-----------I think, like you, I might have it but worked deliberately to adjust to it and be social (I'm the most "popular" guy most of my friends know, for what it's worth). I took an online AS test and I was under, but that may be just because I've changed like you have to be more social and stuff.
But yes, I go back to her because she IS my wife--------she's the other part of this relationship, right? I don't get it. Like, I think the real problem IS with her, such as her inability to realize different people ARE different and have different needs, right?
But I can't tell her that. At the same time, I don't think it would make any sense to expect her to realize that on her own.
You asked why I'm in therapy-------I started therapy a long time ago when I dropped out of med school and didn't know what I wanted to do. Therapy helped. I think it's fascinating. I didn't go back because I'm depressed or feel crazy; I went back honestly to try to find better ways to improve myself, namely how I deal with stress and how to handle it better.
My motto on therapy has always been that some people need it, most people don't, but everyone can benefit from it.
I dunno. It sounds like I'm a jerk if I say I'm in good mental health. My wife isn't "sick," a sick person can't party like she does, know what I mean? I think it's simply she doesn't know what I need and I can't tell her because she doesn't want to do any work---she's spontaneous by nature.
Oops, there I go talking about her. I dunno. I can't talk about her it sounds like? But if I talk about me it all sounds too perfect and I'm the jerk complaining about my imperfect wife? I don't get it. I hear Michele saying it probably feels better to have these feelings recognized by Michele of countless others, and it does, but everything I read and have been told, while they might say different things on exactly what to do, say that something has to be done to fix any situation. My wife won't do anything on her own, and if I ask her about it she's instantly defensive and feels "pressured." So just talking about my feelings, it sounds nice and it SHOULD work, only it has the opposite effect. So I don't talk about them. I keep it in and I stay the nice husband--------isn't that part of the problem? You have to act nice because who would want to be nice to a mean person, but if I don't act any differently she doesn't know that this still bothers me? So the answer is to talk about it...except that she takes it so personally.
Not just with me (I get the argument that I'm an insensitive spoiled young creep because I want to make love with my wife once a month), but with anyone, with any situation. For example, I haven't been able to visit my grandmother 5 hours away. My wife loves her, no problem, but a whole weekend for something I want to do, she can't get excited about that and feels "pressured" to do something she wouldn't want to do. So I don't do it. I don't see my family. I can't go alone----that would be even worse---but here we are. What should I do? What do people do with a partner who doesn't think anything's wrong and has nodesire to look at how they can be a better partner, for example? I'm afraid the same would be true if it wasn't sex-------it's about being a team, knowing, listening, I dunno, I feel trapped knowing too much about what I'm doing right, like I've been too good for too long.
Grey,
You are stuck in the same loop, going around and around.
You've been there for weeks now.
You've got to get your focus on something else---ANYTHING ELSE--right now.
Go do some art, catch a lobster. Anything.
Please stop OBSESSING over your wife and your sex life.
Really, that's all you're doing and how much is it helping you?
It's time to help yourself. That's all you can do.
You can't help her, fix her, or change her.
It's not an "all or nothing" situation.
Seriously.
Follow up on what I said and please take a break.
I feel for you, but this is not healthy for you or for her.
I don't want to read another word here until you take a break, get some clarity, see your therapist... then I'd like to hear all about it.
But not until then, OK?
--GG
@ Gg
I hear you.
But it's tricky, that's all.
You say focus on my art, she gets upset I'm spending too much time on it. She WANTS me around more, I listened, and adapted. And I like it! I still paint, I could paing more but, like her, I LIKE spending more time with her and I'm glad I moved my studio home.
All I really want to do is talk to her about this or ANY situation that might come up like this----it's not simply about not having sex, it's the inability to talk about it that really bugs and why I keep coming back, only it feels "selfish" to people because the issue happens to be intimacy.
So I've tried to talk, but it didn't work. K, so the next suggestion is to try a note instead, or try talking again, or say it in a text, even an email.
But the caveat there is I'm afraid of the consequences. She tends to immediately shut down no matter how the information is presented. If she gets shut down enough times, it's gone for good. It's scary. I don't want it to be a negative experience because she holds onto those for so long.
So wait until counseling, right? Well, it's not that she's deliberately putting it off, it's more like she forgets, or has other things to do, or she's waiting to hear back from a facebook message about who to contact (she doesn't want me to set up the counseling she said, plus her insurance covers some of it and mine doesn't)-------but now it seems more like the fact that I'm in my own counseling has given her reason to stop, to not consider marriage counseling. It's not that she wouldn't think we could benefit, it's that she simply stopped thinking about it.
And that's the rub-------I can't come out and say it again without it being pressured (no matter what the issue is, from sex to dirty laundry on the floor to puppy training) and she isn't internally motivated to change, perhaps BECAUSE I continue to be nice, be attentive, clean, not argue, etc.
I saw my therapist again yesterday before the AS thing came up so we'll have to wait again until next week---right now we're just working on stress managmenet----I'm not outright stressful or stressed, but I'm handling stress better. She says my wife can come any time, but my wife pretty much said "it's your thing."
Grey.
OK. I get what's going on here.
Here's a rule of thumb for your next posts---and I don't want to see any for awhile.
You are NOT to use the following words:
SHE
("My wife, W, Spouse, Partner, Better Half, Significant Other, Bestie, Soul-Mate --with or without hyphens.)
HER
WE, US, OUR(s) WE'RE...
SEX. ML, Lovemaking, anything about sex.
Time for a shifting of gears here.
I think for the time being we only want to hear about YOU.
No more responses until this happens, at least from me.
I don't want to read another word here until you take a break, get some clarity, see your therapist... then I'd like to hear all about it.
K, no responses until my therapist tells me I have or don't have Asperger's, lol.
I will keep hiding my feelings and lying to (a person) each day until I have more to say about me. I'm not sure what else to say. Maybe I shouldn't have come here? Everyone seems to agree on that.
No everyone agrees that you should stop feeling sorry for yourself and start realizing that your W is going through an actual medical problem.
No everyone agrees that you should stop feeling sorry for yourself and start realizing that your W is going through an actual medical problem.
Can't talk about that even, though. She may have a medical problem. She's not "sick," but what if she doesn't have a medical problem at all? Well, we won't know for months, so until then I have to ignore her some and try not to get confused when she touches me.
You did, technically, stick to the rules, so here goes.
Good start.
(Sneaky on "a person" though. How did I know you would do that?)
Appreciate the smiley too.
And you are already more brief and less manic sounding.
Rule:
You are NOT to refer to your wife or your sex life AT ALL for the time being.
Talk to your therapist about what we've discussed.
Let's hear about YOU.
Who is Grey aside from your wife's husband?
I doubt you are so boring that, if prevented from going on ad nauseum about your wife, your sex life, and your frustration with both, that you have absolutely nothing of value to share?
Not possible.
Just stick to the rules or I am hanging up.
---GG
Oops.
I posted before I saw this ^^^^.
Grey, if this doesn't prove to you that you are FIXATED on this to an unhealthy degree, nothing will.
Oops.
I posted before I saw this ^^^^.
Grey, if this doesn't prove to you that you are FIXATED on this to an unhealthy degree, nothing will.
I'm confused even worse now.
I came here to talk about this issue. I have other places to talk about art, or where I write, events I'm planning, I came here FOR advice about why I feel so alone from being rejected...then I get scorned for it.
I don't obsess. It seems like it here BECAUSE I'm here to talk about it.
You are not being scorned.
It's just that talking to you has no effect on your perspective for whatever reason.
Your hyper-focus on this issue and inability to see how unhealthy it is concerns me.
We have heard plenty about "those things of which we do not speak."
Has any of it changed your situation?
Has there been a magic bullet?
Do you have the power to fix this by going round and round, or, by doing anything?
No. No. And no.
Please, also refrain from defending yourself here. There is no need.
Also, you only get to play the "poor scorned creepy me" pity card once.
So--Yes.
Talk about yourself as a person, not as a husband.
WHO is "Grey"?
Have at it.
I'm an artist, a painter. colorofgrey.com I like to cook, especially French and creole. I love bacon---I put it in my chili; I call it BBC chilli (beer, bacon, coffee).
I play guitar, mostly classical music, folk and rock. I don't play live anymore but love to jam with friends and my twin brother. I love college football, all of it. I love Ferrari and Formula 1. Ferrari has a cultural mindset of being the best. I like that.
I like to work. I don't love TV, didn't even have it for a decade before maybe two years ago (I got cable for college football season). I love movies, but I don't watch a lot of TV, although I did watch Hannibal, the best show on TV, and Game of Thrones, which makes me wonder how anyone can think the Bible is a perfect translation after hundreds of years when the books are so different. I'd rather listen to music & radio or, even better, podcasts (mostly Joe Rogan and Jay Mohr, Greg Proops, etc.)
I'm outgoing, funny, tall, good shape, I've always had some sleep problems, I love live music and the South, disc golf, organizing events and shows, beer, whiskey, California, coffee, swimming, grilling, writing for local magazines, horror films, cooperative video games, dogs, being outdoors, gardening, romance, popcorn, sandals, kite boarding and stunt kites, learning new skills, crock pots, thunderstorms, and camp fires.
I'm an artist, a painter. colorofgrey.com I like to cook, especially French and creole. I love bacon---I put it in my chili; I call it BBC chilli (beer, bacon, coffee).
I play guitar, mostly classical music, folk and rock. I don't play live anymore but love to jam with friends and my twin brother. I love college football, all of it. I love Ferrari and Formula 1. Ferrari has a cultural mindset of being the best. I like that.
I like to work. I don't love TV, didn't even have it for a decade before maybe two years ago (I got cable for college football season). I love movies, but I don't watch a lot of TV, although I did watch Hannibal, the best show on TV, and Game of Thrones, which makes me wonder how anyone can think the Bible is a perfect translation after hundreds of years when the books are so different. I'd rather listen to music & radio or, even better, podcasts (mostly Joe Rogan and Jay Mohr, Greg Proops, etc.)
I'm outgoing, funny, tall, good shape, I've always had some sleep problems, I love live music and the South, disc golf, organizing events and shows, beer, whiskey, California, coffee, swimming, grilling, writing for local magazines, horror films, cooperative video games, dogs, being outdoors, gardening, romance, popcorn, sandals, kite boarding and stunt kites, learning new skills, crock pots, thunderstorms, and camp fires.
Hell, I don't even play for that team, but I'd sleep with you!!!
Kidding. I'm a flaming heterosexual. Just thought we could all use a laugh around here. You do sound like an interesting guy, Grey!
Starsky
Thanks, Starsky--my head was ready to explode and I understand a lot of this type of intensity.
See--Grey?
There is a LOT more to you than
"Those Things About Which We Do Not Speak--FOR NOW"
(Hereafter referred to as: TTAWWDNS + FN)
You do sound like an interesting, creative guy!
No wonder Starsky might think of switching teams..
(But you sound like you'd be a total score for the Aspie camp if that's where you end up. We'd love to have you!)
I am also a musician, artist, (3-D sculpture, ceramic), dancer, animal lover. Guitar and Ukulele, vocals--mostly traditional jazz and blues. I can rock contemporary blues too.
You lost me on "Game of Thrones" but I did name one of my dogs "Enzo" after YOU-KNOW-WHO Ferrari!!!!
Now that you've got your focus shifted a bit here, think about some things you can do that will help you:
Calm your mind
Shift your focus to something more productive
Try and be at peace with where you are at the moment.
Note: I am NOT saying forever, six months, or anything other than JUST FOR NOW.
What can YOU do to help yourself feel better right now that doesn't involve you-know-who?
Basically, anything you can do to remove yourself from your thought loop will help you get some perspective on things.
Right now you're seeing at microbe level.
You need to pull that focus back so you're seeing the bird's eye view.
How about some vigorous physical exercise?
That's usually a good one, works well while forcing yourself to get interested in another topic.
For myself, hyper-focus can be a real problem.
I tend to get fixated on things, and also on "fixing" things.
So even if you're not in my camp, I get where you're coming from.
Try really hard not to get back on that track, Grey. It's a dead end. Trust me.
The only track that leads anywhere is the one inside you, it's the only one you can ride on anyway.
---GG
Hey---as per above.
This is supposed to be an anonymous site, so you might want to edit your post to remove your website unless you want the world knowing your biz...
That's up to you.
It won't let me edit it now, but the world knows my biz, it's ok, I'm not embarassed by any of it and I already kindof live in the public eye with my art career so no biggie.
Try KROQ some time----106.7 out of LA, for the Kevin & Bean show, or listen to the archives at kevinandbeanarchive.com to hear "Bean," the most Asperger-centric guy in probably all media. He's obsessed with dates, maps, death reports in the news, he's relentlessly insensitive, but it all makes for really good radio. It's also hilarious. I listen to it just about every day.
Right now I'm going to start painting more and working more with the dogs for excercise and training. I think my wife will really like if I can get some discipline into the puppies.
K, I went to my therapist today. It was great. My therapist says I don't have Asperger's.
Strangely, I'm a little disappointed I don't have Asperger's...which seems like the most Asperger's-like thing I could possibly say about the diagnosis, doesn't it?
Oh well. In any case, at least now I "know."
I don't want to read another word here until you take a break, get some clarity, see your therapist... then I'd like to hear all about it.
K, no responses until my therapist tells me I have or don't have Asperger's, lol.
I will keep hiding my feelings and lying to (a person) each day until I have more to say about me. I'm not sure what else to say. Maybe I shouldn't have come here? Everyone seems to agree on that.
I don't agree. I also doubt very much that you are "hiding" your feelings.
I just think you are getting way ahead of yourself. You SAY that you cannot talk to her and that you brought it up ONCE.
To me, that's not a totally banned topic if you brought it up once and she...did what? Did she shut you down? I missed the part about what she actually TOLD YOU when you brought it up AND I missed the part about how you said it, as in, actual wording.
Also, these days my engine takes a bit longer to get warmed up, but once it is, it runs just fine thanks. My point is that without more foreplay than before, it is harder for me to reach the level of desire my h and I both want me to have. That's a menopausal aspect I ASSUME (I have an appointment next week and will ask that exact question. My bet is she'll prescribe me something to get my hormones back the way they were before. I'm actually hoping she does that.)
I think I can summarize what I see as the basics here, and then I want to ask you something.
First -- Your wife may think her lack of desire is "the new reality" but it MIGHT be do to physical causes, that are so well disguised & integrated in us, b/c of how we think and feel in our heads...that she does not know what she does not know...
AND she has diabetes and had cancer and a hysterectomy. ALL of those affect libido. Your reply will be "but NOT before now!" And I get that. I hear you.
But I'd be amazed if there are no physical dimensions to this.
However, If there really are no medical issues, then her feelings have changed -- and that's where YOU do play a role.So you know, My h was deployed to a dangerous area in the Middle East, about 18 months ago. He was gone for a LONG time. His date or return was uncertain. I had zero physical intimacy and not even face to face contact via Skype conversations...
Plus, after 9-11 (the Cairo and Benghazi & a dozen or ore embassies being assaulted, all our phone calls were monitored. So that pretty much eliminated even intimate
talkSo you are not alone in having no intimacy for periods of time. You'll argue that at least I knew my h
wanted it, and that's fair.
But it's also fair to say I sure got a lot less than you are getting. I had a free floating angst about his safety, 24/7. I hated hearing the news at night. I did not let the kids watch it when they were around, just in case we'd again hear of " soldiers killed today in an ambush" etc.
I had NO day to day OR nightly companion. I had no co parent and my "bff" husband was not even able to reliably call me very often.
Maybe once a week maybe for 10 minutes, at odd crazy hours and without any notice.
Grey, Could you handle it if you had been me? Really? (Geez, I guess I need to tell you that NO, I did not cheat on him, for the record. For me & everyone I know, cheating on guys in combat - or on pregnant/sick wives, is about as low as it gets. Just inexcusable.)
So IF your wife is having medical problems,
and for the sake of THIS discussion, let's say she is...then what? You want out?
B/C after all, you don't KNOW that she'll get better, you don't KNOW that she will want it the same way again, AND THEN WHAT??
See, you have spent so much time imagining and fearing that this is forever, and that you already know you CANNOT live without it, you are preparing for divorce or an affair! It's kind of nutty to me.
Grey, you are borrowing a ton of trouble from tomorrow, negatively projecting, and pretty much harming the present.
Nevertheless I do understand one thing a bit different in your situation from other SSM. That is that your wife was NOT a "Low libido woman" or low sex drive woman before marriage and was fine at the beginning of the m too, right? Was it literally right after the honeymoon?
I mean, once upon a time You DID have a good sex life and she DID enjoy ML and sometimes initiated, until very recently in your r. Is that summary accurate?
So this is new. But that also means STOP rushing into your worst case scenarios. How long has this been going on really? You went from how often to how much less, when? Why do I ask?
I think you don't fit the standard "SSM" scenario,
UNLESS and UNTIL SHE SAYS she has low sex drive and THEN, you could try the SSM approaches;...and
you have had far more good things going on in the m, including a good sex life until quite recently. This isn't YET a big problem (except you keep worrying that 'it will be OR it might be OR what IF it is?? Then what??")
You say you don't only focus on this negative aspect but then you complained that you felt so alone in bed and how hard it was for you that one night (though you also said you have had long standing sleep issues).
Man, get some perspective. Put yourself in the boots of a soldier for 5 minutes (if not the shoes of your w.) We go without, for long periods of time. Honestly, I hear of affairs, but I don't personally know
any. So- not cool.
If you want to live in fear and projection, You know, you might get diabetes too...and should
she worry about that NOW? OR what if you became paralyzed everywhere that matters sexually, and she could never again have what you two once had?
And can you stop assuming this is a forever problem? For 90 days, can you NOT assume this is forever?
Grey (did you actually name yourself after the "50 Shades" guy? Oh man, that book is so poorly written that our book club made a drinking game out of the cliches strewn throughout...--but I digress)
The main problem I see
that you can work on, is that you sound too much like a guy who sees himself as quite noble, & a "great h",
who is not getting his way on what he claims is the main issue, now, but he used to (!!) and therefore he is a victim
and he always will be - if he doesn't stomp his feet hard, right NOW.
You seem to demand answers to complex questions, by a certain date...or else...
or else what? I mean, sounds as if you already have back up exit plans- and that is creepy to me.
Like I said, in some ways I totally feel for you b/c at times, you do sound like a concerned h. That's when you put aside your physical needs, and express worry about her (which is not often enough, compared to how much you focus on what is missing in your need bucket).
But if you can put yourself in my shoes for 2 minutes -- I had no idea when (or if, to be honest) my h would return from Afghanistan. I didn't know where he was, other than an entire nation but I did know he was a kidnap target...I had no idea if he was "cheating" on me (pretty much not a thing I worried about). I did not know anything about his daily life, or how he felt. OR when he was returning... I was very lonely, frightened at times, stressed as hell, much POORER b/c his pay plunged when he was activated.
And so, you come here VERY concerned, very upset, very worried about the future of your marriage, solely b/c you have had a "lot less" sex, the past few months.
Perspective, please.
GREAT post, 25 years!
And, sorry Grey.
Maybe you can't make S'mores around the Aspie campfire.
Unless you wear a badge that says: "Visitor".
We're always happy to have another guitar player.
Just food for thought though--- unless your therapist is really skilled in diagnosing Asperger's/ADD and all the spectrum stuff, it might not be clear AT ALL.
My IC didn't believe it either because I compensate so well....and pick up on many subtle social cues. This is ONLY because I have studied and worked hard to learn and to be more fluid socially.
So sometimes I pick up things others do not.
That's only because I'm working 3x as hard as everyone else.
Good for you for bringing it up, though.
And also good for giving the whole "TTOFWDNS+ FN" loop a well-deserved rest.
Go cook a bacon wrapped lobster tail or something...
Or make some bacon-infused, pork belly terrine...
---GGG
@25years----------sorry your problems are worse than mine. I am. That seems to be the reason everyone gives me here when they tell me to shut up about my problems. My wife never had a historectomy, though. I'm sorry about your husband and your issues but millions of people have it even worse than that, too, if it helps. Again, I'm a good husband, and I only come here for advice on one subject BECAUSE it's an area of expertise for the woman who created the site and wrote books on the subject. For now, I'm shutting up about it even here because that's the advice I was given, but for what it's worth I don't think about it much, it's only even some of the times I do think about it that I get stressed and I'm trying to find a way to deal with that stress----for now, getting better sleep is a priority.
@GG---------I may yet have Apserger's. If I do, I manage it, much like you, but the guy I KNOW who has Asperger's on the radio, Bean Baxter, well, he's clinical in every way----fascinated with maps, dates, numbers, he SAYS creepy things on live air, he loves ship wrecks, can't stand when people say "daylight SAVINGS time," I just don't think AS is the outlier for me right now is all but still give Kevin and Bean a shot just to hear Bean. I think you'd be entertained, at least.
After my therapy yesterday, my therapist says I'm doing great. I feel good about everything, but her encouragement is truly inspirational. Right now, my focus is on better sleep. So I'm taking a bubble bath every night. No joke. We have a nice tub, jets and everything. No internet two hours before bed. No TV. No sweets 4 hours before bed (I was already doing most of these things). If I can't sleep, I have a pad and paper to write anything down as fast as I can, non-stop. I'll be getting more regular exercise running the dogs.
I'll also be training the two dogs more myself, both together and individually. I'm setting up a budget with budget-planning software so it's transparent, I'm getting a calendar tomorrow so we can both keep better track of events, I've started working with a group of people on a curated group art show for the fall and getting other artists involved (painting on vinyl records) and doing some TV spots for it, and also TTOFWDNS+ FN
I will check out the radio show!
Meanwhile, most of us do not come off all "Rain Man".
In my case, most people would not pick up on it.
For me it's mostly an internal struggle.
It's a spectrum; no two people are alike and there is a wide range of expression.
I am on the "mild" end with "mild" ADD.
Both of which get worse with stress, lack of sleep, lack of exercise, and the wrong diet.
So yeah---SLEEP is a high priority.
Nice post, BTW.
Have a great day. Go paint a dog--- literally!
----GGG
After my therapy yesterday, my therapist says I'm doing great. I feel good about everything, but her encouragement is truly inspirational. Right now, my focus is on better sleep. So I'm taking a bubble bath every night. No joke. We have a nice tub, jets and everything. No internet two hours before bed. No TV. No sweets 4 hours before bed (I was already doing most of these things). If I can't sleep, I have a pad and paper to write anything down as fast as I can, non-stop. I'll be getting more regular exercise running the dogs.
I'll also be training the two dogs more myself, both together and individually. I'm setting up a budget with budget-planning software so it's transparent, I'm getting a calendar tomorrow so we can both keep better track of events, I've started working with a group of people on a curated group art show for the fall and getting other artists involved (painting on vinyl records) and doing some TV spots for it, and also TTOFWDNS+ FN
Great stuff, Grey!!!
Hang in there, and I pray you can learn to smell some of the other roses along Life's way.
Starsky
@25years----------sorry your problems are worse than mine. I am. That seems to be the reason everyone gives me here when they tell me to shut up about my problems. My wife never had a historectomy, though. I'm sorry about your husband and your issues but millions of people have it even worse than that, too, if it helps.
If you think I consider these^^ "issues", you missed the point of the post. I'm FINE with what is happening. It's just life. My h is not doing this to me, just as your wife is not doing this 'to you".
Again, I'm a good husband, and I only come here for advice on one subject BECAUSE it's an area of expertise for the woman who created the site and wrote books on the subject. For now, I'm shutting up about it even here because that's the advice I was given, but for what it's worth I don't think about it much, it's only even some of the times I do think about it that I get stressed and I'm trying to find a way to deal with that stress----for now, getting better sleep is a priority.
@GG---------I may yet have Apserger's. ---
how important or relevant do You think this ^^ is now?
--Right now, my focus is on better sleep. So I'm taking a bubble bath every night. No joke. We have a nice tub, jets and everything. No internet two hours before bed. No TV. No sweets 4 hours before bed (I was already doing most of these things). If I can't sleep, I have a pad and paper to write anything down as fast as I can, non-stop. I'll be getting more regular exercise running the dogs.
Good ideas...I may try some.
PS
So, as I asked, WHAT specifically did you say to your w and what, specifically, did she say back to you, the
"One time" you brought up not having enough sex?
"That seems to be the reason everyone gives me here when they tell me to shut up about my problems."
Where did you get that from? No one told you that. Everyone is just offering you a perspective from your W's POV that you may not understand or consider.
"For now, I'm shutting up about it even here because that's the advice I was given,"
No one has told you that. The general consensus seems to have been just to not make it always about your needs. In fact, I as well as others, have said you should have a heart to heart with your W about it.
Yeah, actually we kinda did.
For the record, the Asperger's thing is only relevant because, if it applies, it might provide an explanation for the way Grey is having difficulty processing his situation, as well as some difficulty processing the input he is getting from all of us.
It would explain the frustration we all feel, trying to talk to someone who seems to see things in very concrete terms and keeps going around and around without making any headway.
And I think we can all agree something is amiss in the translation here.
(Grey--do NOT take this personally. I don't know you... but I feel your suffering, I really do. There is something you're not taking away from all this, something is missing. A.S. is only my guess because I see the same issues in myself. It is not a failing of yours, only a way of thinking that, even if it's not AS, is not the "general" way most people approach this type of thing. )So it's a possible explanation for why Grey seems "stuck" in the thinking loop, and having difficulty seeing things from another perspective. That is the number one difficulty AS folks have, as a rule.
It is NOT an excuse, but just something to help him understand himself better, thereby improving his relationships with everyone.
I don't think it's helpful to tell him he's selfish and needs to go have a wank... I don't think that's it. Clearly he is distraught and clearly he is reaching out for support.
It's just not getting through on the normal channels.
But---if it does apply---it absolutely would be affecting his marriage in ways he might not consciously pick up on without some serious introspection.
As someone who often misses the obvious, complicates the simple, simplifies the complicated, and takes the microscopic view of things as a rule, my heart goes out to him in ways that might seem inexplicable to others here.
Just my two cents.
Which is worth exactly that!
---GGG
Yeah, actually we kinda did.
I agree Starsky. I know as I have been reading this thread some are coming across to me that he should "shut up". Maybe they aren't saying that in actual words, but I agree with what I believe Grey is hearing because that is what I seem to be kind of hearing also. I am hearing..
"Hey, you don't have it so bad, quit complaining and stop thinking about yourself and think about what your wife is feeling"Now I know people don't think that is what they are saying, but that is also what I am reading and hearing.
(Well, we really don't know what his wife is feeling, and the only way to find out is to see if we can get her to talk about it in an adult manner because anything else is just an educated guess at best.)
I would say that maybe if the advice one gives doesn't seem to be heard, try a different approach.. You know what they say when you don't jive with a therapist. Go find another therapist. (just sayin)
I hear you Grey. I do. I think you did a smart thing by coming on here and looking for some direction.
Here is a bit of what Michelle says on the topic...
Do (or did) you and your spouse have significantly different levels of desire for sex? If so, you are not alone. Did you know that 1 in 3 couples has a sexual desire gap? But just because you aren't alone, it doesn't mean you should be complacent about a ho-hum sexual relationship. You shouldn't. It can lead to a miserably angry spouse, infidelity and divorce. If you don't believe me, watch this TEDx talk on The Sex-Starved Marriage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep2MAx95m20And although solutions to this sexual divide abound in magazines, self-help books and other pop psychology outlets, there is a little talked about fact underlying the problems associated with this sexual void.
The No's have veto power.
Here's the scoop. The spouse with lower sexual drive controls the frequency of sex -- if she or he doesn't want it, it generally doesn't happen. This is not due to maliciousness or a desire for power and control, it's just seems unimaginable to be sexual if one is not in the mood.
Furthermore, there is an unspoken and often unconscious expectation that the higher desire spouse must accept the no-sex verdict, not complain about it and remain monogamous. After decades of working with couples, I can attest that this is an unfair and unworkable arrangement.This is not to say that infidelity is a viable solution to disparate sexual interests. It isn't. As with all relationship conflicts, being willing to find middle ground is the best way to insure love's longevity.I will talk to you about it Grey. I believe you are doing the right thing by trying to nip this in the bud NOW, before it is too late.
My suggestion is to get a game plan for having another talk with your wife. I don't believe that she REALLY feels and understands how important this issue is and will become unless you have a heart to heart. Maybe you will have to write her a letter first. That is something we have to figure out.
The first step to me is that you need to feel safe on here to be able to discuss your frustrations without feeling like you have to shut up and defend yourself. I must be seeing things differently because I don't see you being selfish at all about this issue. It's just a fact, that this is an important need you have within a relationship. Of course you can learn to live without it, but I don't believe that was your reason for asking for advice on this issue. You want your wife to want to have sex with you more, and you want to feel like she really wants it too.
We need to get you some type of game plan for communicating this to your wife. The game plan needs to make sure the way you express it is correct, the timing as good as possible, and a plan for your replies for each and every possible reaction we can think of that she may or could have.
Just my opinion...
Good luck
Grey,
So quiet today!
I hope this is a good sign. Maybe it indicates that you have broken the cycle and moved onto other things---good things---instead of focusing on the negative.
Today has been weird for me; H has been here and I just don't have clear perspective in my own situation. No clarity, only questions. As well as great answers I don't yet understand but am trying to accept at face value.
So I hope you're out GALing...
I'm gonna go set up my DJ playlist for tomorrow night's gig, and see if I can't catch one of my dogs to trim those pesky "behind the ears" matts.
They HATE that!
Cheers!
---GGG
@JCred
My suggestion is to get a game plan for having another talk with your wife. I don't believe that she REALLY feels and understands how important this issue is and will become unless you have a heart to heart. Maybe you will have to write her a letter first. That is something we have to figure out.
We need to get you some type of game plan for communicating this to your wife. The game plan needs to make sure the way you express it is correct, the timing as good as possible, and a plan for your replies for each and every possible reaction we can think of that she may or could have.
This, to me, is the outlier. I can't talk to her about any important issue, lease of all this one.
I tried to again last night. Just talk. We had a great weekend, both of us did some chores and some cleaning, we went out all over town Friday night with her friends, took the dogs to the park together Sunday, it was a great weekend. I thought Sunday night would be a good time to talk, not about our sexless marriage, but about what I can do better.
“Nothing.” I asked a question from a book, she has mentioned she wanted to read one of my books but never did, so I try “hints” at getting her to try to work on this marriage with me, like asking a question from a book every now and then (in truth, it’s only been four questions come to think of it).
But that’ just it------just trying to talk, it becomes something she doesn’t want to do. And she doesn’t do anything she doesn’t want to do. She thinks it’s all me, that’s what she says anyway. She says, “you just need to focus on you,” of course she’s yelling by this point and I can’t get her to stop (we don’t have a “safe word” or technique to stop a disagreement before it becomes a fight because she hasn’t read about anything like that and I tried to talk to her about having a safe word or “time out” once and she got more upset).
So I go to therapy on my own and my therapist doesn’t understand why I’m there. My wife thinks my therapist is going to tell me why I shouldn’t feel so rejected and alone and will convince me to be happy in a sexless marriage.
I haven’t tried a letter. I kept quiet and followed the best advice I thought and tried to talk about us again (everyone seems to agree that talking about issues and being 100% honest is crucial). I’m not 100% honest, at least for now---I explicitly don’t talk about my desire for sex or her lack thereof, just for the record. So I’m lying. That’s what it feels like. I’m lying to my wife.
And in the meantime, she’s happy…UNTIL I try to talk about marriage. If I never brought it up again, she’d be happy. She IS happy----me asking what I can do better, that makes her unhappy. It makes her shut down, then she yells, then she gets angry and stays angry at me, even overnight.
Meanwhile, I can’t sleep. It’s one thing to not think or talk about your problems, but not sleeping makes almost everything else impossible. It’s not that I’m up all night thinking about ways to get my wife to have sex with me. I’m not. But when my wife is angry with me just for trying to talk (the one thing I keep being told I need to do), I can’t just turn it off and be ok and sleep right next to her right away. So now I’m sleep-deprived but still expected to be perfect all the time AND not talk about it? It’s impossible for me, but at the very least, it HURTS. That’s what makes me feel alone.
I feel frustrated and alone. Yes, I feel like I’m meeting her needs and she is unwilling to talk about meeting mine no matter what they were, but what if it’s not just me feeling that way? What if that’s the reality? She said she wants marriage counseling, only she wants to set it up. She hasn’t done that, so when I try to, she gets upset again. When I asked last, she was waiting on a psychiatrist friend to give her recommendations of a few counselors on her insurance. Unfortunately, she didn’t know any of those counselors so she didn’t have any advice about which one to pick. Then my wife asked me to ask my therapist, who also didn’t know any of them. So nothing happened.
I’ve heard advice about writing a note before, but I’m afraid to do that. Any and every time I try to talk with my wife about improving our marriage she shuts down and reaches a point almost immediately where anything said will do more harm than good----at that point, she simply can’t think or communicate clearly. She never changed her name----it’s still her creep ex-husband’s name, for example. And I never bring that up. I never have. But it helps reinforce this lonely feeling I have.
So GAL, right? I do that. But when I do “too much” of that she feels alone and needy so I go meet her needs and spend more time. It’s not that I don’t spend enough time with her (I have been keeping a calendar to ensure I spend at least 14 hours a week listening to her, either just talking or walking with the dogs or eating, etc., anything without TV or other people involved), so I don’t get it. I spent Saturday afternoon with a good friend recovering from a divorce. He’s actually doing great, super happy right now, I hadn’t seen him in months. My wife was fine with me spending time with him. I have a life, I’m organizing an art show for September, I have my own friends, I take her out with her friends, I read, paint, train the dogs in the morning while she sleeps, etc. If I get too much “GAL,” then SHE feels rejected. It’s like she wants me to be there all the time, but she doesn’t want to love me? I get such conflicting signals…but I can’t talk to her about them.
And here we are again. I tried to talk, she got upset, now I have to wait a week to try again, and in the meantime I have to be happy about taking her to her friend’s house for the holiday so she can get drunk and meet all the rest of her needs all week long and I’m supposed to not just be ok with it, I’m supposed to be happy with it? I’m not happy. I don’t even know what to do when I get home tonight----I feel like I’m supposed to act like nothing happened, like we (I?) didn’t try to talk last night, like I’m supposed to lie and fake it. I’m not supposed to buy her flowers because that’s needy, I’m not supposed to cook dinner because then it feels contrived, I’m not supposed to text her all day (I’m working 18 hours) because that’s clingy, what kind of a relationship is that? She’s not cheating, but I’m almost to the point I wish she was just so I’d have some reason to sincerely be upset. I don’t know what to do.
Reading this made me wonder what was going on in my husband's mind before he told me he wanted to move out and then did so that same evening. Clearly he had been feeling things were dire for a while. I wasn't very happy either, but certainly didn't expect he would just up and leave me. In fact, by the time he agreed to go to counseling, he was already done so it was a waste of time-- he wasn't invested in saving our relationship at that point.
But I wonder what would have happened if he had written me a letter and poured out his true feelings-- his fears, his wishes, etc. Maybe if I knew how unhappy he was, I would have been quicker to get the help I needed for my issues. Not a threat or ultimatum, but more like, "I love you but I'm afraid....and I want us to work on this together".
I think I would have listened to him and taken action.
I will also say that even though I was in crisis (depressed, highly anxious, withdrawn and exhausted all the time), the thought of getting help was completely overwhelming to me. My H became impatient and critical. What if he had shown empathy and also vulnerability and true, loving support-- even though I resisted.
What if the issue was not depression or lack of sex drive, but smoking or addiction or obesity or something else that affects your health but can be hard to get control over? How would you deal with that?
What if you drafted a bit of what you want to say to her here, and vets can give you some feedback and perspective? Stay optimistic, and have a problem- solving mindset...
Grey,
I you are not happy, and sex is a deal breaker for you, then perhaps you should separate. Let her know that you tried talking to her about this, but her unwillingness to even discuss the subject of your M has caused you to feel so unhappy that you need a separation.
In a successful M you need communication, and you need to meet each others most important needs. If she cannot, or will not, do this, then you need to think about what you are really in here. Is it a M? Not by my definition. You are roommates that get along really well. Perhaps a separation is in order until she is willing to sit down with you and put some work into your M.
If your W continues to shut you out and not meet your needs, it is only a matter of time before you meet someone that will. Asking for a S while you give her a chance to meet your needs would spare her from that trauma.
Just my 2 cents.
-HS
^^^ this is the kind of thing I was suggesting to tell her you are afraid it will come to if she continues to refuse to communicate. I was suggesting that, instead of dropping the bomb on her after you have convinced yourself that there is no hope (like my WAH did to me), that you open up to her about your fears and concerns about the affect on the marriage.
Don't make it all about sex... it is more than that. It is about two people being willing to support each other and solve problems together. It takes two people to make a marriage work. Does she want it to work?
My H waited until he felt totally hopeless before opening up to me. Don't do that to your W.
^^^ this is the kind of thing I was suggesting to tell her you are afraid it will come to if she continues to refuse to communicate. I was suggesting that, instead of dropping the bomb on her after you have convinced yourself that there is no hope (like my WAH did to me), that you open up to her about your fears and concerns about the affect on the marriage.
Don't make it all about sex... it is more than that. It is about two people being willing to support each other and solve problems together. It takes two people to make a marriage work. Does she want it to work?
My H waited until he felt totally hopeless before opening up to me. Don't do that to your W.
I wouldn’t wait to open up until I feel totally hopeless. But I’m losing hope with every time I get rejected for trying to open up, despite not even mentioning or suggesting anything having to do with sex. She hasn’t taken any real steps. That’s the trick, isn’t it?
For example, another comment asked what if it were another issue, such as if she was a smoker and I didn’t like it, or if I had a problem with her being obese (she is, and I don’t have a problem with it), or anything else, but I can’t talk to her about it and that becomes the issue.
But separation?
That won’t work for her. That will be permanent.
She has a history of dropping even her best friends permanently instead of working out conflicts, including very minor ones. Suggesting separation, I mean, the idea sounds great and I think maybe some time apart would potentially be the only way she will find it IN HERSELF to try to make the marriage better (instead it’s just me asking, which she interprets as pressuring her, or me being needy, etc.), except she will simply drop me. I’m afraid the real solution is to be ok with her leaving me because I won’t settle for someone unwilling to put forth the effort in a marriage, but if that’s the case, then she’s gone. She’ll leave. She’ll turn it into hate and use that to justify her hate for me for the rest of her life. Of course, I can’t bring that up either (my fear of her leaving me like she’s left so many good friends) because then I look weak and why would she want to be married to that?
I feel stuck. I don’t want to “punish” her but I’m afraid any boundaries I try to set are going to be interpreted by her as punishment. Of course, I don’t want to leave either-----all I really want is for the things I do that make her so happy to be enough to make it possible for her not to harbor resentment towards me for feeling like I need to talk to her about anything. She hates “work.” It’s not fun. Why would she want to do something that’s not fun? I’m afraid the harsh truth is no, it’s not worth it for her to try to make the marriage strong because it’s not worth any compromise whatsoever.
So I wait and fake being as happy as I make her and I go to therapy alone and I’m stuck. I walk into the bedroom to find my wife watching movies about people who have sex, I read about how helpful make-up sex can be and I know that will never happen for me, I know I’m not even supposed to be saying sex now but it IS a need that would bring me closer to her immediately and alleviate some of this loneliness immediately but I can’t TALK to her about it------it would be the same with ANY need, so I don’t get the part where I have to censor what it is BECAUSE I have learned what I need to feel loved and that my marriage is safe and complete. It’s not that it’s sex itself, but not being able to talk about anything only exacerbates the pain-----it makes me want LESS to try so hard to be so good all the time, even though that’s exactly how I want to be but I feel like she starts to think I’m doing that just to hide that I’m hurting.
I've gone long enough without sex or talking about sex with her that I think it's ok to be upset that we can't simply have a conversation about what I need to do to make her happier without her saying "nothing" or getting mad at me just for asking.
She can get mad. Your fear of her emotional reaction doesn't mean you don't bring it up. If she gets mad you can say, I love you and this is important to me. We can talk more tomorrow after we've had some time to think.
If she's not willing, she's not willing.
Then you have an answer of sorts.
and decisions to make.
You're crystal ball reading and scripting of everything is probably getting you just what you're getting.
She can get mad. Your fear of her emotional reaction doesn't mean you don't bring it up. If she gets mad you can say, I love you and this is important to me. We can talk more tomorrow after we've had some time to think.
If she's not willing, she's not willing.
Then you have an answer of sorts.
and decisions to make.
You're crystal ball reading and scripting of everything is probably getting you just what you're getting.
I hear you on the “crystal ball” part, and you’re right, I’m doing that, only I’m doing it because I’ve seen the consequences to other people she loved and I’m THAT terrified of the same thing happening to me just for bringing it up.
“We can talk tomorrow instead,” I think I’ve said this every single time I’ve tried to have an important talk with her. She gets upset, usually very quickly into the discussion, and I know it’s not going to get anywhere. I try to get us to take a “time out” for another time, but then, for example, she lets it linger, goes to bed angry (which I have heard is one of the most damaging things to any relationship), and is later still angry. She says she’s not angry the next day, only she says it with a monotone voice and can’t look me in the eye, doesn’t set up another time to talk, etc.
On one hand, I know it’s important to try to initiate the conversation. On the other hand, it’s always me initiating it, and that part alone brings stigma to the situation. Then again, if I don’t bring it up, she won’t either, perhaps because she’s happy and also she’s ok with burying my feelings----I’ve done that for several weeks at a time even, subduing my needs as much as possible so they are unnoticeable to her, but it’s only when they come up again or I try to talk that it’s a problem. It’s like, I want to talk with her about how I can’t talk with her, know what I mean? It’s the ultimate catch 22, and I understand the logic of maybe that means she’s not good enough for me, but I can’t pretend if she couldn’t just get past the part where she can’t/won’t have “adult” conversations (not just with me but the friends she’s abandoned), that things would be able to become great again and she would be thrilled rather than reluctant when it comes to compromising meeting my needs. There’s no compromise at this point---it’s me meeting her needs and not even talking about whatever my needs are.
Grey,
Her getting upset at the off is her way of shutting you up. A good offense is the best defense, so to speak.
How would your W react if suddenly you stopped meeting her most important needs? Would she talk to you about it, or just get nasty until you shaped up? I'm trying to gauge her emotional intelligence. It seems that she has some very poor relationship skills.
If you stay in your M as it is, you will eventually lose your love for your wife, like so many WAS you read about on these boards. When that happens, any attractive person that comes along and starts meeting your needs for intimate conversation and admiration will draw you in like a moth to a flame....
The separation is to help you save your M before its too late. If your wife won't engage in R discussions with you AT ALL, then what are you to do? Sit back and meet her needs while yours go unmet for the rest of your life? That sounds like a very sad story.
If your W cuts you off because you want more from your M, then she doesn't really love you, does she?
-HS
Grey,
Your posts today absolutely shook my foundation: you are my H about 2 years ago. I am your W up until a year or 6months ago. I don't think I realized what he was thinking, truly, until I read some of what you posted.
We also had great sex until we married. About that time, I went though a depression- not severe, but enough that it killed my libido and made my personality a bit "off". He took it personally even though I explained it wasn't him. Nothing I did made me feel better, medication included. I eventually came out of it, but it was too late. He had stopped trying.
I also have a history of cutting people out of my life who hurt me- I could hold a grudge like a champ! He referenced it several times. He also was afraid to bring things up to me because of it.
I empathize and sympathize with you because your sitch is a mirror to mine, opposite roles. I get it, NOW.
let me tell you this: I changed. I am truly a better person than I was last year on every level. If my H would take off his blinders he would experience how I would be a better W, and our M could be amazing. Your W can change, however, she's gonna need some real motivation to do so.
What do you have to lose? The confrontation you are avoiding WILL happen sooner or later. Don't be like my H is now: because he was so afraid of the inevitable confrontation, he made horrible choices based on desperation and emotion. He lost his integrity and tells me frequently that his life is "a mess" and "horrible" and he "can't undo what he did". All because he never communicated honestly with me.
I absolutely played a huge role in the deterioration of our M. But he has allowed fear to rule and destroy his life.
You need to take the reins right now- for both of your futures. As I said, you have nothing to lose. Your M won't survive the way it is now, so why not give it a chance by forcing her to come to terms with the issues?
Wishing we all had a time machine,
Artsy
Grey,
Your posts today absolutely shook my foundation: you are my H about 2 years ago. I am your W up until a year or 6months ago. I don't think I realized what he was thinking, truly, until I read some of what you posted.
We also had great sex until we married. About that time, I went though a depression- not severe, but enough that it killed my libido and made my personality a bit "off". He took it personally even though I explained it wasn't him. Nothing I did made me feel better, medication included. I eventually came out of it, but it was too late. He had stopped trying.
I also have a history of cutting people out of my life who hurt me- I could hold a grudge like a champ! He referenced it several times. He also was afraid to bring things up to me because of it.
I empathize and sympathize with you because your sitch is a mirror to mine, opposite roles. I get it, NOW.
let me tell you this: I changed. I am truly a better person than I was last year on every level. If my H would take off his blinders he would experience how I would be a better W, and our M could be amazing. Your W can change, however, she's gonna need some real motivation to do so.
What do you have to lose? The confrontation you are avoiding WILL happen sooner or later. Don't be like my H is now: because he was so afraid of the inevitable confrontation, he made horrible choices based on desperation and emotion. He lost his integrity and tells me frequently that his life is "a mess" and "horrible" and he "can't undo what he did". All because he never communicated honestly with me.
I absolutely played a huge role in the deterioration of our M. But he has allowed fear to rule and destroy his life.
You need to take the reins right now- for both of your futures. As I said, you have nothing to lose. Your M won't survive the way it is now, so why not give it a chance by forcing her to come to terms with the issues?
Wishing we all had a time machine,
Artsy
What would have helped you?
I mean, you sound just like my wife. I don't want it to come to that, and I'm feeling like I'm unwilling to let it come to that, in particular because of the advice here and education from books and therapy.
But this is perfect because it's you that's so much like my wife yet didn't know until it was too late.
So can I ask your advice?
What would you have wanted to hear from your husband?
For example, I'm afraid my wife may have some depression BECAUSE I'm depressed....so I don't want to bring it up to make it worse? I don't want to be selfish and I'm terrified of her cutting me off like she did some of her old friends.
What do you think he could have said or done that would have helpedyou become part of the solution? I think that too would help her own esteem or ego boost, but getting her there, I know conflict resolution is important but she doesn't.
Would a separation have helped you? Or do you think you actually would have been able to listen to him say the things you think would have helped, and if so, how would he have said them to best help you? Again, I know it's all clear in hindsight, but my wife doesn't have that right now and I don't know how to talk to her---------the letter-writing part scares me most because if I write the wrong thing she'll latch on to specific words or phrases and she'll hate me for them plus she'll have a permanent record of them to remind her to resent me rather than a force to remind her to love me, see why I'm afraid?
At this point I'm terrified to go home. I don't want to fake it and hide anymore. I don't want her to think nothing's wrong no matter how happy it makes her. I don't want to go home until I can go to therapy but that isn't until next week. I don't know what to do.
Ok- I knew things were "off" for several months, but we got along great so I just thought we were in a slump or whatever. Then I started catching him in little lies. Stupid little things that would have made no difference to me- like he bought a gun without telling me (I have no objection to guns- we had several in the house already!!!) then he bought some other stuff and lied about it some more and then he got a new phone and didn't tell me and THAT's when I knew there was big trouble. That' was last August 2, and that was BD #1. I snapped out of my selfishness IMMEDIATELY. I went to IC and started BDing (by coincidence-didn't know this site existed then). I made important changes that have stuck, and he even admitted he noticed and that things got better but then on Dec 14, I was told he was moving out. It completely rocked my world. But, there really wasn't much more for me to "do" cuz I had been doing it already.
Now, my H is full-blown MLC. That did NOT help our sitch. Saying things like "I don't want any responsibility anymore", and "I can't be responsible for anyone else but me" and "I don't know who I am or who I will be when this is all over", "I can't undo what I did, so there's no point in trying"...You aren't MLC, your W just has no idea how bad things have gotten.
I "think" we could have staved off a lot of the mess if I had known the damage happening beforehand. No way to tell now, but the beginning of our story is identical to yours.
As I said, he made horrible decisions to ease the pain he was in instead of rocking the boat earlier to tell me he wasnt happy ( I have not been told the entire story, but I can fill in the blanks to what he has told me).
Honestly, I'm not sure I would have really gotten the message any other way. I was selfish, I took him for granted. I took the man who he WAS for granted. He literally was the nicest guy in the world- everybody would have agreed with that. He lost himself somewhere along the way.
I just assumed he would snap out of his funk and we would just trudge onward because he would never be one of "those guys". Lesson learned!
As I learned in church last week: sometimes He has to break you to remake you.
Bottom line: I had to learn my lesson the hard way. I will say he never made an attempt to sit me down and talk. He went passive-aggressive and acted out thinking I would "get the hint" (he told me this).
That doesn't work. Don't do it. Talk to her- you literally have nothing to lose at this point.
Did that help? Feel free to ask any question you need to. Sorry you are hurting.
Ok- I knew things were "off" for several months, but we got along great so I just thought we were in a slump or whatever. Then I started catching him in little lies. Stupid little things that would have made no difference to me- like he bought a gun without telling me (I have no objection to guns- we had several in the house already!!!) then he bought some other stuff and lied about it some more and then he got a new phone and didn't tell me and THAT's when I knew there was big trouble. That' was last August 2, and that was BD #1. I snapped out of my selfishness IMMEDIATELY. I went to IC and started BDing (by coincidence-didn't know this site existed then). I made important changes that have stuck, and he even admitted he noticed and that things got better but then on Dec 14, I was told he was moving out. It completely rocked my world. But, there really wasn't much more for me to "do" cuz I had been doing it already.
Now, my H is full-blown MLC. That did NOT help our sitch. Saying things like "I don't want any responsibility anymore", and "I can't be responsible for anyone else but me" and "I don't know who I am or who I will be when this is all over", "I can't undo what I did, so there's no point in trying"...You aren't MLC, your W just has no idea how bad things have gotten.
I "think" we could have staved off a lot of the mess if I had known the damage happening beforehand. No way to tell now, but the beginning of our story is identical to yours.
As I said, he made horrible decisions to ease the pain he was in instead of rocking the boat earlier to tell me he wasnt happy ( I have not been told the entire story, but I can fill in the blanks to what he has told me).
Honestly, I'm not sure I would have really gotten the message any other way. I was selfish, I took him for granted. I took the man who he WAS for granted. He literally was the nicest guy in the world- everybody would have agreed with that. He lost himself somewhere along the way.
I just assumed he would snap out of his funk and we would just trudge onward because he would never be one of "those guys". Lesson learned!
As I learned in church last week: sometimes He has to break you to remake you.
Bottom line: I had to learn my lesson the hard way. I will say he never made an attempt to sit me down and talk. He went passive-aggressive and acted out thinking I would "get the hint" (he told me this).
That doesn't work. Don't do it. Talk to her- you literally have nothing to lose at this point.
Did that help? Feel free to ask any question you need to. Sorry you are hurting.
Yeah, that helped a lot.
And it’s also what I’m most afraid of.
I think my wife knows I’m hurting and feeling alone because I’ve said it, versus your husband not saying it. But we don’t talk about it because she immediately shuts down----last night when the conversation started she almost immediately got defensive. I tried to stop it, to have the conversation later so it didn’t escalate, but then she yelled just for that. This morning, she woke up mad with me.
He left and you felt bad. If I leave, she won’t feel bad---she’ll hate me and try to forget about me like she did some of her best friends, that’s what I’m afraid of.
I want to try talking to her again, I just don’t know what to say. I’m dealing with anger management so I don’t yell anymore (not that I yelled much, just when I broke down the first time about how lonely I felt before I found DB, but she yells at me more than I yell at anyone). But she isn’t trying. I can’t get her to try, it feels like.
Think about it realisticaly-----what would it have been like if your husband had come to you and, despite being nice and meeting your needs, he got upset that he felt alone and unloved? What if you had yelled at him? What can I do to make my wife CAPABLE of talking with me about anything important, let alone this gripping feeling that I want to leave like your husband did so I can be happy again?
I don't yell, ever. (I have yelled at my mom a couple times, but that was a ridiculous situation...) I can pout and go silent for a loooooooong time, though. That is the very first thing my IC started working on. I am happy to say I haven't done it in almost a year, regardless of the things that have been thrown at me.
And just because she doesn't talk to you doesn't mean she doesn't care or doesn't feel bad. She has zero coping skills and is afraid to express emotions, I'm guessing. That's me, so I go in to my shell to avoid it.
I felt bad because I love my H. Anyone who loves another person doesn't want them to feel lonely, isolated and unloved- they just don't. If you sit her down and tell her what you need to tell her and she cuts you out of her life, then, sir, you are better off----- period!
Now, listen to this: she has a lifetime of reactionary behavior, and she will resort to it when she gets upset. It's habit. She may yell, shut you down and shut you out for a time but if she doesn't snap out of it after a bit and agree to work with you on the M then you saved yourself so e years of your life.
You can't control how she's going to react. However, two people in a M need to be able to talk about issues in the M.
Honestly, you BOTH need C. If she won't go with you, see if she'll go on her own. I'm proud of you for getting to see one for yourself- my H refuses any kind of medical intervention unless it's a surgical procedure he can't perform himself. A lot of men seem to be like that.
I know this is killing you- but if she can't/won't work on your M then you need to take a hard look at what you want.
I'm fighting like he!! For my M (at least I was- I dropped the rope a couple weeks ago. Still would like my M to work out, but his mental state is unhealthy for me.)
The thing is, only you and she knows what your R is like. Do you feel like she loves you and is just being shortsighted and immature?
I had a very cold family. I was never taught how to emote. Honestly, it comes more naturally to some people but for me it's really difficult to allow someone else "in". I have learned to drop the defenses, though. She can learn, too. But she has to want to.
I don't yell, ever. (I have yelled at my mom a couple times, but that was a ridiculous situation...) I can pout and go silent for a loooooooong time, though. That is the very first thing my IC started working on. I am happy to say I haven't done it in almost a year, regardless of the things that have been thrown at me.
And just because she doesn't talk to you doesn't mean she doesn't care or doesn't feel bad. She has zero coping skills and is afraid to express emotions, I'm guessing. That's me, so I go in to my shell to avoid it.
I felt bad because I love my H. Anyone who loves another person doesn't want them to feel lonely, isolated and unloved- they just don't. If you sit her down and tell her what you need to tell her and she cuts you out of her life, then, sir, you are better off----- period!
Now, listen to this: she has a lifetime of reactionary behavior, and she will resort to it when she gets upset. It's habit. She may yell, shut you down and shut you out for a time but if she doesn't snap out of it after a bit and agree to work with you on the M then you saved yourself so e years of your life.
You can't control how she's going to react. However, two people in a M need to be able to talk about issues in the M.
Honestly, you BOTH need C. If she won't go with you, see if she'll go on her own. I'm proud of you for getting to see one for yourself- my H refuses any kind of medical intervention unless it's a surgical procedure he can't perform himself. A lot of men seem to be like that.
I know this is killing you- but if she can't/won't work on your M then you need to take a hard look at what you want.
I'm fighting like he!! For my M (at least I was- I dropped the rope a couple weeks ago. Still would like my M to work out, but his mental state is unhealthy for me.)
The thing is, only you and she knows what your R is like. Do you feel like she loves you and is just being shortsighted and immature?
I had a very cold family. I was never taught how to emote. Honestly, it comes more naturally to some people but for me it's really difficult to allow someone else "in". I have learned to drop the defenses, though. She can learn, too. But she has to want to.
Yikes. I am terrified now even more than before. I'm afraid you're right, most of all.
Do you feel like she loves you and is just being shortsighted and immature?
Exactly. Which doesn't help either one of us.
She loves me. I know she does. Trust me, she'd be able to convince you she loves me, too.
But we can't get past it. I can't have needs, or talk to her about why I'm not ahppy. Which means I have to let her give me the ultimatum it sounds like. She can't really handle marriage because marriage requires BOTH parties to be responsible, especially when it's hard. She shares in all of the glory, none of the pain. Right now I can't get her to even respond to a text if I should come home or not. So I feel like I shouldn't go home. I'm afraid she'll have my bags packed, or already left, who knows. Maybe it's for the best. 8 months, everyone I know is getting divorced. It's crazy.
Fear of the unknown is the worst in this sitch. Go home, unless you think there's a physical danger.
If she's truly like me, she'll want to know you want to be there, even if she doesn't want you there. Know what I mean? Lol ( that's the old me, I'm better at confrontation now).
If she loves you there's a chance at fixing this. You both are going to have to face it head on, though.
You already "know" how she's going to react, so expect the best and prepare for the worst, right? You can do this. Even if it gets heated, when things cool off there's still love in there.
Why can you not just listen to what everyone is telling you and thats just to be patient and give her some time. Youre whining on here everyday about the same thing bro. You sound like one of the clingiest people on here. You doing all this sh!t that youre doing right now like texting asking if you should come home or not, thats f*cking stupid. Stop doing that. Leave her alone about your M right now. If youre just patient it will work out. You already said she loves you and that the only thing wrong is that you feel unwanted. What you need to do is go GAL and show your W what she is missing out on with you. Stop being pathetic and start being a man.
Ben,
I know better now, thanks to real therapy. You see it as me complaining about sex, in particular because you have less sex than even me. I am a man, and I'm not pathetic. My wife needs to be able to communicate with me and I am trying to figure out how to help that happen.
I'm just worried you'll give up before you try at real communication
Ben- I think the difference here is he's the WAS (potentially). He's trying to save his marriage from the other side of the story than we all have.
I do agree, though that you shouldn't be "asking" to come home. It's your house, too.
^^^^^^ you're going to need to set some boundaries. She needs to understand where you're coming from/how serious you are. Again, it really took BD for me to "get it".
Your issues go deeper than lack of sex (no pun intended). Your communication needs to improve before your R can. I'm sure you know this, but you gotta figure out how to get through to her on this.
^^^^^^ you're going to need to set some boundaries. She needs to understand where you're coming from/how serious you are. Again, it really took BD for me to "get it".
Your issues go deeper than lack of sex (no pun intended). Your communication needs to improve before your R can. I'm sure you know this, but you gotta figure out how to get through to her on this.
I agree.
We talked last night.
She had been crying for 2 hours before I got home. She swears I have depression and has been reading about depression and coping with living with a depressed person. My therapist says I don’t have depression. I’ve been depressed before, and I don’t feel depressed.
I do feel stuck when it comes to my marriage though, and I’m sure my wife sees that. So I talked. I brought everything up and she listened. She doesn’t really want to participate though. Maybe she will. But she doesn’t want to. She’s lost a lot of respect for me without me knowing or doing anything, well before when I first started to notice our physical relationship had vanished.
She says I used to be driven and that’s what she liked. The trick is that’s also when I was spending so much time in the art studio and not with her, before we got engaged. So it’s a catch 22-----she asks me to spend more time with her and move the studio home, but she’s lost respect for me for doing that?
I don’t get it. We still love each other. But she let her feelings for me get so rotten without me knowing and without me doing anything deliberately to deserve that, plus her natural way of thinking is to be judgmental of people, including her friends. But her friends have the luxury of not being judged every single day.
She says she’s been reading, but when I asked her about the book she had (one of mine) she didn’t know anything about it----she had printed a quiz from the back and circled her answers, but it wasn’t a quiz about marriage or divorce or intimacy; it wasn’t even really a quiz, come to think of it. There were two choices for each number----no question, just two choices, such as, “I like when my husband holds my hand” vs “I like when my husband does chores without me asking.” It was ultimately benign. I can’t help wonder how much she might be able to think differently about both me and our marriage if she would listen to an expert, be it a counselor, therapist, or a doctor in a book, even online experts. Anything, really. I walked the dogs late last night alone, needed the exercise.
I know she understands me better now, I just don’t know where we’re going from here. She still seems to think the problems are all just me and I need to “work on myself.” I made her a CD with some fun music on it this morning and asked her to try to think positive about the things I do and the things I’m trying to do, including me going to therapy. I don’t think she sees it as a marriage problem at all----I think she sees me as the problem instead. Most of the time you wouldn’t know it---again, she’s happy. But the same “you don’t know how tired I am” issue came up again. It’s always about being tired. Too tired for me, never too tired for everyone else past 2 AM even. I didn’t say that to her, but only because I’m not sure what to do, really.
Well, I think it's a huge positive step that she sat and listened without blowing up and shutting you out- take the baby step.
As for the rest, a lot of S's say they miss the person the other S used to be. So now you gotta get that back! That's where DB comes in. Maybe you're too available to her? I don't know. Seems like a pursuer/distancer issue. Try to get the old Grey back.
Try to keep the lines of communication open-
Grey,
My thought is that she finally opened up to you and started telling you what was in her heart. This was the perfect opportunity to listen, and validate, to hear FROM HER all of the answers to the questions that you have been asking on here. Instead, you talked, and told her about YOUR suffering and issues. That's why she didn't participate. You steamrolled over her.
Women are attracted to people they admire. If you were to ask her who she admired, what would her answer be? She as much as told you it's not you (it used to be). Is there someone else that she is attracted to now?
I hope you get another opportunity like the one you had last night. Like a poked turtle, she will withdrawel into her shell since it wasn't safe enough for her to get her feelings out. Over time, her head may come back out of the shell. When it does, LISTEN! Don't dominate her back into withdrawel. She's heard all about YOUR issues, isn't it time you heard hers?
-HS
Grey,
My thought is that she finally opened up to you and started telling you what was in her heart. This was the perfect opportunity to listen, and validate, to hear FROM HER all of the answers to the questions that you have been asking on here. Instead, you talked, and told her about YOUR suffering and issues. That's why she didn't participate. You steamrolled over her.
Women are attracted to people they admire. If you were to ask her who she admired, what would her answer be? She as much as told you it's not you (it used to be). Is there someone else that she is attracted to now?
I hope you get another opportunity like the one you had last night. Like a poked turtle, she will withdrawel into her shell since it wasn't safe enough for her to get her feelings out. Over time, her head may come back out of the shell. When it does, LISTEN! Don't dominate her back into withdrawel. She's heard all about YOUR issues, isn't it time you heard hers?
-HS
I don’t get it.
She’s not heard my issues before. I mentioned it once.
Once. And that wasn’t done right. And she has mentioned her needs plenty, and I’ve adapted over time. I talked to her not just because of advice, or books, or Michele, or even this forum, but ultimately because of my own therapist.
I never ask her for anything, and that’s part of the problem-----I’ve never put any boundaries on her, nor asked for anything.
Is there someone else that she’s attracted to? I don’t think so, no.
Look, the inherent problem is talking with her about anything we have a problem with makes her afraid right from the get go. She doesn’t see it as an opportunity to strengthen the relationship, and what I found out last night from her is that’s not my fault, it’s from being treated lousy by lousy guys in the past for years (and part of why I feel so confused is she had lots of sex with these lousy guys she didn’t love but doesn’t have sex with the guy who listens to her and she loves).
I get that it’s all about her needs for some people here BECAUSE of how people perceive my need. I had to explain that it was a need to be closer to her, not just a receptacle or an “itch to scratch.” I get that people are going to disagree with me here, but I took professional advice and, frankly, it seems to have helped both of us, it’s just not the end of the story is all. You make it sound like she didn’t speak, but she did, for maybe the first time, and while I’m sure she probably didn’t get it all out, at least it’s something.
Like, I hear what you’re saying about her finally opening up some, but isn’t the trick that she finally opened up only because I talked to her in the first place about where I’m at? She didn’t open up much, and she put the blame on me and took no responsibility for her own, isn’t that part of the issue more than the advice I was given to open up the way you’re saying she needed to open up?
Grey,
Arguing with my view is pointless. What is it you'd like me to write to make you feel better and I'll cut and paste it for you in my next post. That's what you want, isn't it? You simply don't want to hear what anyone has to say to you here- every post receives a retort from you. If you know so much, why aren't you having S with your wife? I have plenty with mine.
I pointed out how you talked "over" your W instead of listening. Oddly enough (*cough* *cough*) that's just what you do on here. Strange how that works, isn't it? Perhaps I'm seeing EXACTLY what your W does.
Stop rebutting- this isn't a court. We're posting here to help you, not hurt you. I want you to have S with your wife, and I want your W to WANT to have S with you! Slow down, listen, listen, listen, think, listen , think, then talk.
I'm heading out for vacation, so best of luck.
-HS
^^^ I was thinking the same thing. You have written paragraphs complaining about all the things your wife is doing wrong...and how you are the perfect husband (even she says so, you say!)
So... what would you like us to say? We can't control your wife... and neither can you. Do you want us to agree with you about how awful she is and give you permission to leave her? No one is stopping you.
I haven't heard much about what you think is your role in this... and you are the only thing you can control. And when you get advice or suggestions for what YOU might need to work on, you get defensive and debate every point.
What kind of feedback are you looking for? Solutions, or just empathy?
It probably comes down to control. You don't like things that are out of your control so it's driving you nuts. In fact, just a few weeks without sex and you feel de-valued. You have to have patience through this.
In my opinion..
I think you have "role reversal" going on here.
You seem to be the one always wanting to "talk" about the relationship and "needs" and getting closer, etc.. She doesn't think there is anything wrong and is closed off...
When you have "role reversal" in a relationship, the man starts to come across as more feminine and the woman then starts to take on the masculine traits.
What then happens is that the woman loses respect and her attraction to the man. She can't open up about her feelings because he is always wanting to talk about his feelings. This is subconscious on both the man and woman.
The solution is that the man needs to get back more to his "male" side. In other words, start talking less about his feelings and the relationship and doing more "male" type activities and hobbies....
She won't feel safe talking about her feelings while she worries that you are so sensitive about your feelings..
Your best bet was to just tell her something like... "Hey, I am attracted to you and the bottom line is I want more sex"..
You wanted to get into a deep "feelings and relationship talk" which is usually a feminine trait.. I would assume she again secretly took to the male side and thought.."here he goes again wanting to talk about his feelings and the relationship and I just want to watch this movie and be left alone".....
Just my opinion....
Grey,
Arguing with my view is pointless. What is it you'd like me to write to make you feel better and I'll cut and paste it for you in my next post. That's what you want, isn't it? You simply don't want to hear what anyone has to say to you here- every post receives a retort from you. If you know so much, why aren't you having S with your wife? I have plenty with mine.
I pointed out how you talked "over" your W instead of listening. Oddly enough (*cough* *cough*) that's just what you do on here. Strange how that works, isn't it? Perhaps I'm seeing EXACTLY what your W does.
Stop rebutting- this isn't a court. We're posting here to help you, not hurt you. I want you to have S with your wife, and I want your W to WANT to have S with you! Slow down, listen, listen, listen, think, listen , think, then talk.
I'm heading out for vacation, so best of luck.
-HS
That’s not true at all. I have listened plenty. And I’m not trying to argue with you. I also don’t appreciate being belittled, especially here.
The problem I have is that you’re giving advice (and scorning people for not taking it) that doesn’t follow the direction of expert, including doctors, including Michele, and including my own therapist.
I don’t debate every point. I don’t understand how some people say they have noticed no changes. I’ve listed them plenty. I’m working on getting better sleep deliberately (exercise including walking the dogs alone at night, baths at night, no TV or internet after 10 PM, no caffeine or sugar after 8 PM, steady schedule, etc.), training my dogs more (60 minutes a day), getting up with the dogs every day so my wife can get more rest, going to a therapist (how that got past anybody for me trying to change is very confusing), not bringing up (despite talking about it all of two times, once at the advice of many people including my therapist), meditation (new to me), I have a calendar now so planning for us is easier than ever, I’m painting more, playing more music outside of the house, hell I’m putting a group show together with 50+ artists and four bands for September and writing for the #1 magazine in town on the side (talk about GAL).
You say all I do is complain about “all the things your wife is doing wrong.” Listen closely, and you’ll see the only thing my wife is doing wrong is not accepting personal responsibility to compromise and talk about our relationship. The reason why it sounds so negative to you is because I’m trying to find a way to get her to do that, to not walk all over me, to talk to me, to be part of the relationship in a deliberate way rather than just a side effect of being together. For now, we’re roommates. If you read only Michele’s books you’ll hear and recognize all of this. My wife heard me, and no, I didn’t say it perfectly, but she’s more prepared to do something about it, including counseling, I just want her to take the next step, a single step, on her own----when I ask here for advice about how to do that, some people seem to interpret it as how to change my wife to “scratch my itch,” rather than understanding it’s not an itch to scratch; it’s a need, but the need is a side effect of fixing out marriage first. Struggling with that need is something I’m surprised so many people here in particular have chastised me for.
just a few weeks without sex and you feel de-valued
Yes, that’s right. After a month, I started noticing how bad it felt and how the rejection was affecting me. Nobody can help how they feel, though. We can change how we react to how we feel, and that’s what I’m working on the hardest, but the need doesn’t disappear and the rejection doesn’t stop affecting me, and I’m working on that and hopefully together we will work on that soon in couples counseling, too. Just working on it together is enough for me, but patience can’t come without a price, and no effort to take any responsibility doesn’t work for any marriage no matter what problems there are.
I love my wife. I saw my therapist again yesterday. I’m doing good. I am not doing everything perfectly, but we have to be allowed to make mistakes, as long as I’m trying and BELIEVE there’s hope she will become part of the equation (that doesn’t mean sex alone).