Hi, this website has been such a revelation to me. I thought all of our problems in our marriage were my fault, and now that I understand MLC, I see my wife is acting off her rocker crazy.
I have been separated one year. My wife left when our home of 20+ years was foreclosed upon, she left and took the kids. I have given her space, and see her only when I pick up our son for weekends. When my wife told me she was dating other men in January, I told her that she would not date other men and be married to me. I gave her divorce papers (I'm a lawyer) the next day. She is still sitting on them.
When I saw that dating other men was something she would not give up, I came up with a brilliant plan (note the sarcasm). We would have a three month trial divorce which started on March 28th. We released each other of our marital vows and we would check in with each other on July 1st.
She is staying in a place with our three youngest children. She is kicked out of her place and must leave by the end of June. She lost her only source of income (selling a rare breed of cat), has no job, has no place to go lined up, she cannot sleep, and she is an emotional mess. A month ago I told her I would get all of us a place to live if we would try getting back together, which she would not consider.
She continues to see other men. But on the plus side, we never fight, we have no issues that we fight over, and we are always friendly to each other. But the only solution she has come up with is to run to a boyfriend's place in another city, and escape there for two months.
I have taken care of this woman for over 20 years. It is tearing me apart that she is going through this, and I can't fix it. I am trying to keep her at arms length, but I am afraid that she will soon try some move to have me provide a roof over her head. I plan on going dark with her, but given the urgent circumstances should I try something else? Thanks for any help that you can provide.
My GAL stuff - when she left I was unhealthy dealing with lung issues, which are now much better. I'm exercising regularly and have lost 30 pounds in the last year (60 pounds total, Yay!) I attend a weekly Christian men's group for breakfast, and a weekly Divorce Care group.
Welcome to the board
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
_________________________
My wife left when our home of 20+ years was foreclosed upon, she left and took the kids. . . .
I have taken care of this woman for over 20 years. . .
Not trying to be a jerk or anything, Wet, but women place a real high value on SECURITY. How is losing the family home "taking care of this woman?" Maybe I'm missing something.
Starsky
Thank you Cadet and Starsky 309. Starsky I now see that my wife when she married me gave me a gift of her heart to protect and keep safe. I blew it, and I hurt her in the worst way possible.
Quick update. My wife invited me over twice in the past week, and I decided to stay away. I kinda hoped to see her today/tomorrow as it is my birthday and Father's Day tomorrow, just to see what she would say. But she did not come, and I had a great day spent with the kids, which feels really good.
Welcome Wet. I hope you find this forum as helpful as I have. Being relatively new myself I do not have as much to offer other than moral support. I am dealing with a WAW as well. I think we also share something else in common. Being a lawyer I assume you have been relatively good financially. When I met my wife I was on top of my game (2006 and I was in real estate development in a beach resort town). In recent years my finances have deteriorated although I have managed to keep my head above water. Starsky's post may have been harsh, but he is right. Whether or not our financial downfall was directly our fault or not, our wives do place a high value on being financially stable. But as I am sure you know, life sometime's deals us cards that do not always work in our favor. You can over come this though. Listen to what the people who have been here have to say (like Starsky) They will tell you things straight and they will sometimes be harsh (they refer to it as hitting you with a 2x4) but it is because they have seen the same scenarios play out over and over.
I wish you the best, and I will be following you hoping to learn from you as well.
Hi Pilot, thank you for your understanding and your best wishes. This is a tough road in front of us. Let's learn from this together.
My Father's Day update. I did not see my wife today. I did speak to her in a nice, laughing conversation that felt good. First, I had the kids this weekend at my parent's house. A really good weekend of game playing, talking and seeing a movie. My S volunteered that Mom is crying 24x7, and the girls agreed. On my w's free weekend, I feared my w might use it to spend the weekend with other guys, but instead when I talked to her today she said she spent it with girlfriends and gave enough details that I believe her.
More important, she told me that she has not been on her dating website for a couple of weeks, and that she canceled her membership because she does not have enough time right now. Good on her!
But she is still having trouble selling the cats, has not found a place (she needs to be out June 30th, she is seeing 5 apartments on Monday) but seems to be leaning towards moving in with a friend on July 1st. So maybe this is the best solution until school starts in September.
I am still not an option with her for dealing with needing a place to stay. But patience and keeping my distance seems to be helping.
I spoke to my wife tonight. She was able to find a 3 bedroom place in the school district our son wants to go to. And she can move in July 1st. She did a great job and I told her that when she called me. It looks like I will have at least two months now to work on my GAL. I am relieved.
Have you ever read DB or DR?
No, I just recently discovered this website. How do you think the books will help?
The books are the foundation for what people on this forum are trying to utilize in salvaging their marriage/life. While you can gain a lot of insight by reading other people's stories and asking questions of people who have already walked in your shoes, you will not get the big picture unless you read the books...at least DR.
While I was never one who thought I would be reading "self help" books, in this case, I did. My entire mindset changed after reading DR. The stories here have given me a sense of peace and hope, but the book laid out the path for me to follow.
Best of luck!
Thank you Pilot. I will check out DR.
If you plan to continue getting advice from the people here, you must do the work. You can't keep asking questions from those who have worked on things from the basis of DB. Do you really want to know how to save your M? Then reading the books are your first priority.
OK, I'm sorry but I need some advice. My wife needs a place by July 1st. She found a 3 br place to live for her and two of our children. But because of her lack of income, she listed me along with her on the rental application.
This is hard. Do I sign the Lease to allow her to move in to this new place? I know that she chose her path when she left me, but this also effects our children.
W is in full meltdown mode right now. She can't sell her cats and had 2 of them returned, and owes for this. Our d 18 just had a car accident today (she is alright) but the car is totaled. And she still has no job lined up. I am giving her affirmations on the pain that she is going through, but I feel like I should do more. Any thoughts?
I would say no, do not sign the lease. You dont want her to move out, so why would you enable it by paying for it? If this is the life she wants, she has to figure out how to make it happen.
Thank you Pilot for your wise advice. Tonight I spent over two hours with my W watching our son's baseball game (his team lost in an exciting game where it came down to a play at the plate where the runner was thrown out to end the game.) Here is an update.
We used the game to do our switch of son with me handing him over to W. From my time spent with W, I know I am in a roller coaster ride, and I know I should have no hopes or expectations, but I still had hopes that with the tough life circumstances she is facing it might cause her to discuss working our marriage, but she showed no interest in me, and so I am a bit disappointed.
Here is the update on her 3 bedroom condo she is looking to move to on July 1st. She listed me on the application so the income would let her be approved. But the landlord for some reason hasn't given her an answer yet. The foreclosure is apparently causing some problem with the application. Anyway, there is no way I will sign a Lease while she is seeing other men. There is a chance W can get the Lease on her own, given that she has promised to pay the first three month's rent upfront. So we will see what the Lord has in store for W's living space starting July 1st.
One interesting story from near the end of the game. W said something nice to me, and then she said our daughters told her to stop doing that because it only encourages dad/me to think there is a chance. But I couldn't respond. I was thinking of saying something to dismiss what she said, something like "don't worry W, I know that I don't have a chance." But I didn't want to lie. I know that I have no chance. But as long as I have breath to say a prayer, I know that there is still some chance that God answer my prayers by changing W's heart. And with the changes I am making to myself, maybe I will get to the point where "only a fool would divorce me". So instead I just sat silent. W is testing me to see where I was at, I am recently distancing myself from her, I no longer call her "m'love" on my emails to her (which I have done for 20+ years), I no longer call her at all, and so she may be wondering what is going on. Or with all she is facing, more likely she is just thinking out loud.
So, no encouragement for me. But I knew from the beginning that this is going to be a long haul. I am working on myself (I continue to exercise, lose weight, and I sent out 14 resumes in the past few days - I am sending W the copies of the cover letter to each job I am applying for, with no comment. I think this is the right thing to do, given that I think the biggest pain I caused my W was my lack of action in applying for jobs during the foreclosure). I am working on myself and trying to not be shaken by the waves of W's life. I have ordered DR and it will be here on Tuesday.
From my time spent with W, I know I am in a roller coaster ride, and I know I should have no hopes or expectations, but I still had hopes that with the tough life circumstances she is facing it might cause her to discuss working our marriage, but she showed no interest in me, and so I am a bit disappointed.
From what I have gathered reading and listening to postings here, do not expect her to want to discuss working on your marriage for quite some time, especially while there is OM in the picture
W said something nice to me, and then she said our daughters told her to stop doing that because it only encourages dad/me to think there is a chance. But I couldn't respond. I was thinking of saying something to dismiss what she said, something like "don't worry W, I know that I don't have a chance." But I didn't want to lie. I know that I have no chance. But as long as I have breath to say a prayer, I know that there is still some chance that God answer my prayers by changing W's heart.
Perhaps this would have been a time to validate. You could have said something like "well our daughter does not realize the amount of pain you have been through over the past # of years." Or something like that. Saying you know you have no chance comes across as weak and not showing confidence. STFU works too.
I am sending W the copies of the cover letter to each job I am applying for, with no comment. I think this is the right thing to do, given that I think the biggest pain I caused my W was my lack of action in applying for jobs during the foreclosure).
I would say no to this as well. She doesnt care what you are doing. Your are pursuing by showing her changes etc. When you get a new job she will find out on her own. Besides, how does it look to show you you applied to 10 jobs and no one hired you? Detach. Do your own thing. I just took a 2nd job because our financial situation took a nose dive over the past few years. And our finances were pretty stressful for her. I did let it slip I had a second job, but I did not tell her where or doing what. Let her wonder...be mysterious.
Best of luck to you!
Thank you Pilot, you are a solid source for me for good advice.
One more question: My W and I are coming to the end of our 3 month "trial divorce" this week (June 28th or July 1st, depending on how you count). Do I bring it up to her? When we started this, we said we would check in with each other at the end of the 3 months and sign the divorce papers if nothing changed.
But this was before I was aware that my W was going through a MLC, and of the DB methods. I do not want to force her hand now. But should we even discuss the topic?
I dont know the correct answer other than if you both agreed to discuss it, then I would say discuss it. Maybe she is holding on to things at this point and waiting till that moment to open up to you about. Then again, I do see how it breaks the DB chain you are trying to build. I am sure one of the vets will have solid advice.
Never bring up the D. This is part of DBing. Did you read DBing book. Go to Sandi2's list and reread it and copy it. If she brings it up don't discuss the R or D. Get a DBcoach to find out exactly what you should do.
Thank you Pilot and Owl. Tom's (me) rule of conduct #1 generally requires following through on agreements. But I think Owl is right on this one. Let it slide until W is ready to discuss it.
However, on July 1st, I might change my status on FB from divorced to separated. No, I am not friends of W on FB, but a few of her sisters are friends with me. I know, I am being petty. Tom Petty? ;-)
A quick update. Somehow my W was approved for 3 br condo. She told me the rent, and it is 240% of her total reported monthly income (?!) Something smells fishy. She originally told me that she listed me on the Application so that my income would get her approved. But when I talked to her today she said I was not on the Lease ("silly man") and that I was not on the Application.
I know the paperwork that is required to get approved on a Lease. And her cash business should never be approved. But she is charming, so maybe that won the day for her.
On a lighter note, my D17 recently left to spend two months in Argentina on a foreign exchange student program. She is excited that Argentina's team is doing so well in the World Cup (they just won against Nigeria).
I have my first interview on Friday.
I picked up my son last night. My W hugged me, and I could see something was wrong, so I asked her. She understands that she will not be able to afford the new place without a job. And her most immediate problem, is selling her special breed cats before she moves out. She has to sell her 15 cats this weekend, and she can't because her computer is not working. I looked at it and showed her what piece needed to be replaced (monitor connection.)
She also broke down because there is so much packing to do. She said 3 boyfriends offered to help her pack. I then said that I won't be there to help on moving day, so they can help her. And she immediately said no they won't be helping her.
So I took my son to baseball practice and we surprised the boys with a parents vs. kids scrimmage. I got a hit off of my son, it was a lot of fun. So I am reading DR and doing a favor for W might be a good thing. So when I got back to my place I said if her monitor is still not working I can bring my monitor over and make sure her computer is up and running. She texted me back saying she needed a break, and went to the local bar to play bingo instead. I went to bed, and when I woke up she still had not posted her pictures, so her computer is still not working. So is life.
I tried to get a clue about your story yesterday but there are a lot of missing pieces.
Did you ever read the DR or DB?
Hi labug,
Yes, I am currently reading DR.
Hi everyone,
I made a mistake last night when I saw my W last night. I brought over my monitor to her place so she could could use her computer to print pictures for D18's graduation party on Saturday and use her cat pictures to sell the remaining 15 cats/kittens (!) who must be gone by Monday.
My mistake came when I took my son to his baseball game Thursday night. For some reason my W came to spend an hour at the game, and she sat with me. She is on her high school reunion's organizing group, who is getting together in August. With this she is meeting different people from the class. And she told me last night that there was a married man who chased her for two weeks to sleep with her (I told her "I don't want to hear this, boundaries.") But she said that it was just wrong for a married man to try and sleep with her.
My W and I are still legally married, and our 3 month "trial" divorce comes to an end July 1st (next Tuesday). So I told her "Our three month trial divorce ends on July 1st." And she responded: "What! But we have the divorce papers, they just need to be signed." And I responded, no as of July 1st we are back to being married.
I was frustrated by her cavalier attitude to dating while we were separated (well before our 3 month trial divorce started) and her moral outrage at a married man pursuing her when she is still legally married also. I know, I should have no judgment against her right now, and no expectations. And with all of what she is going through, she did not need me pressuring her about our marriage.
So I blew it, any recommendations othan just keeping my mouth shut?
I dont think you blew it, but you definitely should have approached it differently. And by that I mean you should not have brought up the R in the first place.
I do not think it was catastrophic, but in the future you know not to do that again.
Best of luck!
Pilot, thank you. I keep having these dread thoughts she is now going to just hand me the signed divorce papers. My mind is so messed up, I keep having an "expectation" of being able to have more time to detach and let her work through this.
This does reveal that my W really believes she is already divorced. Kinda interesting...
I have a question to the online DB community - My MLC W isn't going out with just one OM, but is going out with many other men. Has anyone else seen this kind of MLC behavior? I'm just wondering why she is choosing to be with many others instead of just one?
I could not say, and not sure anyone could say for sure (mind reading).
However, some thoughts that come to mind...
1. Many means its physical and does not want emotional attachment.
2. Cant seem to find one she likes so she keeps looking
3. Is extremely attention starved and loves/reacts to attention where/when she gets it
4. Character flaw
5. A million other reasons.
No point in trying to figure it out. Worry about you and work on you. Worrying about her will keep you from detaching and prevent you from doing what you need to do which gives you the best chance at saving your M.
Best of luck!
My thought was searching for the one! With none meeting the grade?
My h said he needed to find happiness with "the one" as I wasn't it.
It's tough, but she sounding all over the map.
Thanks again Pilot, and thank you Ggrass.
Pilot, you are right in that I just need to keep working on myself, and not worry about figuring out my W's motivations.
I did want you to know that I am not "mind reading", about her seeing many other men Another odd thing about our separation is that she tells me about her dates, and gives me enough detail that I believe her. Her female friends are not around anymore, she is fighting with the sister she lives with, and so I guess I fill a need for her. As much as I know I should stay away from this, I allow it to see what's going on her brain. Also, I do see some baby-steps. Last week she started telling me about a guy she went riding a motorcycle with, and she stopped, and said "no, you don't want to hear about this." For the first time in many months, she considered my feelings.
On the other aspect of "mind reading" her motivations, the reason I bring it up now is that I sense she may be reaching out to me. It may be just financial pressure she is facing, but it seems like there is something more to it. I know. Just keep working on myself, and keep that great PMA going. And let's see what tomorrow has in store.
Thanks for stopping by my thread.
My .02 worth,work on yourself. Get your job lined up, keep working out, get your life in order. She walked away without a thought. It won't help a bit to bring it up. Keep contact with your kids. Be cordial with her, ie treat her as you would the mailman.
It is not your job to fix her mess, fix her or help her find her way back to you. She needs to come through this on her own. Yes she will make some big mistakes and you will want to rush in but don't.
It has been nearly 6 years since my divorce. My former H is still in la la land. Doesn't see the damage he left in his wake because in his eyes it was always and only about him. He married his affair partner,they planned it all to look as if they met after our divorce. Eh,their problem.
My focus is on creating a life I want and to keep being the steady parent that my kids deserve. Hang in there.
kat
Thanks Kat. Your .02 cents worth is pretty valuable!
A quick update. I was able to help with the move in for W and 2 kids today. It's kind of funny, it is an older people's condominium, for which W is sub-letting a unit (and so, no verification of income requirement). All gray hairs, and W said that five different people told her "we like it quiet here". Giggle. But it is a nice unit and should be a nice quiet place for W and the kids to live.
Another quick update. Today again I helped W move into her new place, and I saw a baby step (Yay!) I was working on packing for her, moving boxes, and leaving W alone. She has repeatedly told me "thank you" over the last couple of days. But today during our lunch break, she came up to me while I was seated, and put my face in both of her hands and gave me a kiss on the lips.
Let me explain the backstory on why I think this is such a big, baby step (is there such a thing?) Over the last year of our separation (all pre-DB), I started by insisting that she kiss me on the lips, and she would only give me her cheek. I insisted because we are married for so many years, and I am the father of our four children, I should always have kissing privileges. But it was not a very good argument as I never got a kiss from her. But now that I have stopped pursuing her over the last few weeks, she is the one who comes up to me for hugs, and now today's kiss. I am encouraged.
I also am interviewing for a second job on Thursday. It is a good day.
Hey there Wet - I may not be getting the context, but the kiss on the lips seems a bit un-detached if you don't mind me saying. This is probably a situation where you don't want to be over-excited and go over Sandi's rules a few times.
It's big advice coming from someone as inexperienced as me though. Vet should chime in
Happy 4th tomorrow!
P.S. hope the interview went well
Hi Mat, to clarify I am detached and for the past several weeks am no longer pursuing here. I no longer seek hugs or kisses from W. Which made her coming up to me two days ago and giving me a kiss on the lips something encouraging.
My W is overwhelmed with moving into a new place, needing to quickly sell over 20 rare breed cats, and cleaning up the old place which she left, and more. She is sad and can't sleep. She also recently quit her membership on a dating website. For now, my helping her is working. Every day I see baby steps (today she winked at me, weird huh?). But she still called me yesterday saying "Hi Tom this is your ex-wife" (we are still married). I realize she is testing me, and I hope I am right that being nice, patience and keeping quiet appear to be making progress.
Have you READ DB or DR YET?
It sounds like you STILL rely on others to give you the answers rather than you doing the work yourself.
Hi Mr. Bond,
Happy 4th to you and everyone else here on the DB forum. The only person I am relying on today is my S12 to make me smile, who I have for the week. He says "he loves 'Merica", which I can't get out of my head now. I hope to spend some time with him at the pool (and get 'wet'), and throw the ball around with him.
Seriously, yes I've read DR, and I keep going back over it. I believe my W is coming out of her MLC and is starting to reach out to me. I initiate no contact with her, and I do nothing that is seen as pursuing her. I am excited to see what this day will bring.
Yeah fair enough it's a sign of affection that should be welcomed. Of course you know enough to play it friendly but cool yourself. All situations are different it was just something that jumped at me.
Here is my bad weekend update. I have been having a rough time my self-employed business lately. So on July 4th, our family cell phones were turned off, which is a bill I am responsible for. Of course, the W discovers this.
So on Sunday night I snooped on W's email account. And on Sunday she gets her first batch of matches from a 50 + year old dating site. She’s back on the web dating scene. I’m so disappointed.
Why did you snoop? It sounds from your post that the cells being d/c and your snooping were related.
What gives?
Hi labug, I was trying to draw a connection between past financial troubles which drove W crazy, and my current inability to pay the cell phone bill perhaps be one of the reasons for her to join another dating website.
I thought my W was past being on dating sites, when she told me a few weeks ago that she quit her previous membership on a big dating site. Which I verified (President Reagan said "trust but verify"), and so I thought our r was going in a better direction. I snooped last night again just to verify she was staying away from the dating sites, to my disappointment.
So I now know what I am up against. It's getting harder to face these ups and downs of my separated W. I know detach, detach, detach and move on with Getting a Life.
Keep the focus on you. Snooping will get you nothing but pain. If you are working on you,you won't be thinking about all of her ups and downs. You want to right your boat, not have it sloshing around based onwhatshe has or hasn't done.
kat
Hi Kat, of course you are right. Your words are like valium to my soul - (grin).
Forgive my iPad. For some reason,even though I hit the space bar, words are running together. Lol
kat
Kat, no forgiveness necessary.
My best friend's father passed away, and the funeral is later today. For some reason my W is coming. My best friend has a sharp tongue, and is not likely to keep quiet today. I am having a tough time trying to think peaceful, patient thoughts. Instead, I am thinking life is too short to not be back together, and why is W horsing around with her lifestyle choices? But PMA, patience and a restrained tongue, those are my objectives for today.
How did it go? I know you want nothing more than saving your marriage and I bet she does too. Honestly, you can't control your friend. Her hearing the truth from someone else wouldn't be such a bad thing. Just don't go there with her.
You are not going to get into that with her. Stay focused. You are going to be the best you for you not for anyone else. You can do this.
kat
I just reread that. Let me clarify. Your wife knows what your ultimate goal is, not that she wants what you want.
Back to our regularly scheduled program.
kat
I'm journaling tonight. The funeral was weird. I am not sure why my W was there. We used to be close as couples together. And my bf helped her move out by letting her use his truck a year ago. But she has not had any contact with him since. But she wanted to go, and I had to drop off my s anyway, so I agreed to drive her (her car was used by D for work).
So she complained several times about her sore back (which when we were married I massaged every night). I gave her no response, and instead turned convo toward the sale of her cats, her unpacking, and her contact with D17 who is in Argentina, etc. Nice friendly convo.
But when we get to the funeral, my bf sees us together and puts up his hands like a frame and says "that's a nice picture the two of you together."? How odd, he is the friend who always tells me to move on with my life, and he doesn't even like her anymore. Ok, whatever.
We sit next to each other during the service. And when I see my bf cry, I start tearing up. He gives one of the eulogies and just breaks down. I hate to see him in such pain, and let W know that I am feeling bf's pain. She holds my hand, ok nice gesture. She holds my hand for a good part of the service.
The Pastor is also an attorney, and he is also my friend. He gives a dynamite sermon, talking about the importance of family, and a faithful father who loved his wife. He then mentioned the last thing which was written by the deceased was "I love my wife SBK, and I always will." Even that made my W cry.
She started stretching her neck and back, and I take the risk of giving her a one-handed massage. I know her sore points and I rub one. She started to purr during the sermon! It made me really smile. I briefly rub her and then decide decorum dictates that I stop. But I keep my arm around her.
After the service there was a nice light meal, and we spoke and caught up with some mutual friends. Very nice. I catch up with a bunch of my friends who are also there. My W says she has 12 texts from people who are interested in buying cats, and she has to move the cats by the end of the upcoming weekend (long story I won't get into it here.) So she is off answering texts, and I believe she really is dealing with cat issues. NBD.
Now the ride home is where it gets interesting. She starts asking about me. How is my job search going. Any interviews? I decide to answer the direct question, because I get excited (good pma) telling her about an interview which went really well, and it is a job helping the elderly poor in a large neighboring city, and it is a STEADY PAYCHECK, which I haven't had in 20 + years. I'm so excited and she is happy for me.
She then asks about the Divorce Care I was going to tonight. Then she asks why I enjoyed it so much. And I stay away from explaining that we are people all going through the same PAIN, and we are all LBS abandoned people or cheated on. No, instead, I focus on that we are all sharing together because we are in the same situation. We are going through the same thing together, and its good material and videos, and we get to discuss the topic together. And for some reason that resonated with her. I think she wished she had someone to share with her the pain she was going through (sorry, a little mind reading there.)
So I say to W "thank you for being there today." And she says that she was there for both of us (meaning me and my bf.) Ok, fair enough. But I think something more could be said here, and I am a trained Church discussion leader. And I know the power of pregnant pauses. I was quiet, there was no radio on, and I let her sort through our day together, and let her see if she wanted to say something more.
When we got to her condo, she thanked me and moved forward to give me a quick kiss. I turned my cheek, so that she kissed my cheek (Yes! payback for a year's worth of her turning her cheek to me (see prior days posts.)) And yes she said those powerful words - "I love you". She didn't say it while looking at me, she was rushing off. But she said it.
Now I know that I can't read too much into what she said. But she hasn't said them in many months. So I will take her baby steps as a good sign and nothing more. So the rollercoaster continues.
If when you are together and you do nothing but remind her of pain and what she has done, it will push her further away. If you "act as if you've moved on to your own life" ( which hopefully you really are) it will give her a chance to see you without your emotions thrown in.
I wouldn't give back rubs. Probably gives her the feeling that she can snap her fingers and here you come. It might have been okay yesterday but you were in an emotionally charged situation. You both probably wanted to reach out a bit. Day to day life won't be like that.
Kat
Thanks Kat.
OK, so I was excited by the baby steps she has taken. And I am feeling like I should try and build upon/reward her actions. I know, I risk messing up the work I am doing. But here some small steps I am thinking of doing today:
- send her a FB friend request;
- call her and tell her I know how hard it was for her to tell
me that (her telling me "I love you") yesterday.
- send a light-hearted text about her "purring" at the funeral yesterday.
- or else, shut the heck up, and get on with my own life. My new mantra is "I am happy with or without my W in my life today."
Any thoughts out there?
Kat727:
"If when you are together and you do nothing but remind her of pain and what she has done, it will push her further away. If you "act as if you've moved on to your own life" ( which hopefully you really are) it will give her a chance to see you without your emotions thrown in."
This is perfectly put, Kat.
It took me awhile to figure out that it was more than "not fighting" or "not having R talks" to get things to calm down.
This was a key to change.
I realized that even subtle comments could elicit guilt, which meant he felt bad being around me, and associated me with negative feelings.
Even comments like "I had to take the dog to the vet", or "the power went out last night/driveway washed away" are not directly related to anything he's done, but since he still feels responsible for our PHYSICAL well-being at this point, these comments remind him that he is not here and that we are struggling.
This makes him want to me avoid even more.
I still see this part of him through his actions, the things he does for me.
So I'm not guessing about it.
I had to stop commenting on ANYTHING which might trigger that "negative" reaction. That's hard because life is not easy for me here for a whole bunch of reasons.
Which is where the "Happyface, GALing, PMAing" comes in.
No matter WHAT happens here, he only gets to see me getting through this without breaking a sweat.
----------------------------------
The last time I cried in his presence was when our little dog died last week.
Even then, I kept it under control, didn't make any comments that would trigger guilt.
I'm sure he felt guilty enough because he'd basically ignored her, even though he knew she was not long for this world.
I also did NOT lean on him at all when that happened, nor did I try to comfort him. I left him alone, just gently squeezed his shoulder on the way out. Said nothing... BIG 180 for me.
And it's been several weeks since he saw any emotion from me at all about our R.
Let him feel what he feels.
He doesn't need my help to feel awful about what he's done or continuing to do.
Thanks, Kat. Nice post.
---GGG
First three bullets do sound to me like too much chasing. I'd let her make contact. If the gestures at the service have the meaning that you thing they have, she's cogitating just as much as you are now. Let her make it clear she wants to reconcile, not just get attention from you.
Vets may have a more nuanced perspective...
I have to agree. You need to stay back and watch what happens, not create the action. You want to know if she is actually moving towards you or reacting out due to fear, loneliness, or maybe just wanting some reassurance.
Once again the spotlight is on the life you are creating and you. You want your career to be stable, you to be in a good place mentally and physically before you even begin to bring any sort of relationship with her back into the mix. Otherwise you will not have grown or learned from this awful experience.
Ever wondered why the divorce rate is so high the 2nd time around? People are looking to feel better. They jump into a new relationship without figuring out what got them into their mess in the first place. Same thing will happen even in this relationship with your wife. There is a bunch of work to be done. Roll up your sleeves Tom, you are just getting started.
Kat
Thanks everyone,
R breaker happened tonight. I'm hurting so much right now. Briefly, I just had it out with W. She had an "emergency", her 10 cats were at a bf's house, and they had to be immediately removed because LL was coming in the morning (just the cats were at the bf's house, not the W). So she asked me to deliver the truck to carry all of the cat kennels in the truck, so they were removed, and "doormat" Tom/me, agreed. While she was selling one of the cats in the house, I snooped her cell phone (she was charging in the truck)and read a series of texts with another man which was like her journal. Needless to say there are many men, much PA/EA taking place, and no semblance of dealing with the real issues in her life. She is nowhere near coming out of her MLC, as I previously thought. I told her I was done, and that I was no longer her friend. That if she wanted this separate lifestyle, then she does this now without me.
Later, a horrible confrontation at the bf's home, where she was storing 10 of her cats. And his LL kicked the bf out, while W was removing the cats, and "doormat" Tom is still there waiting for D18 to pick me up and take me to my home. Some guy claiming to be the LL or his brother came and started taking cell phone pictures, and I unloaded on this guy in a not-very-Christian like manner. But at least he took my picture after I explained Landlord/Tenant law to him. Aye!!!!!! My soul is screaming... Fortunately, D18 came fairly quickly before anything more was said.
I will prepare a letter explaining that W and I are no longer "friends" (I have a few examples of the "friend" letter that I saved from this site waiting for this day.) I appreciate if you would help me prepare an effective letter. Thanks.
The best letter you can write is no letter at all. Just disappear. Actions will speak louder than any words you can speak or write.
Here is a draft of my "friend" letter. Let me know what you think.
“W, I feel like I need to be clear with you about something. Make no mistake -- if you choose to end our marriage this way, by continuing your adult relationships with other men. then I have absolutely zero intentions of being 'friends' with you. We will co-parent our children, and I will of course be civil, but this isn't how 'friends' treat each other. The last several months have allowed me to realize what is important to me and what I value in my life. The children are on the top of my list of priority. The children are too important to have to see you go through whatever it is you are going through. And I will no longer have you treat me as a doormat, life is too short and I am moving on.
I understand that your intentions and wishes are different than mine, and I respect them, as we both move forward. While a divorce is not what I would like to happen, I will not stand in the way of your wishes. But know that I am not willing live in an open marriage with third parties. While we will not be friends in this new chapter of our lives, I want to ensure we communicate effectively for the kid’s wellbeing.
Going forward starting now, as long as you are involved in improper relations with other men, our communications will only be focused on the logistics of the children's schedules, their issues, and exchanges.
We have some decisions to make here. Give me some time. But perhaps in a short while, you can let me know your thoughts.”
Again, I would vote no letter at all. While it is a well written letter, I doubt she will think as much. She does not care what you think or plan at this point. She is in a fog. If she did care, she would not be doing what she is. IF I HAD to write a letter, my letter would read.
Unless it is related to the kids, I do not want to hear it.
signed,
H.
That was basically how I ended things with my W when I caught her in the parking lot with OM. And I already knew about the A. I went NC for about 7 weeks other than kid related stuff. She started texting me frequently a couple days ago, and her demeanor has been very friendly.
I am not saying you will get the same results. I am just saying a letter like yours is trying to appeal to a rational person. She is anything but rational at this point. She also does not see what she is doing as wrong. So your letter will be taken as a negative. Actions speak louder than words...spoken or written. Just back off and go NC completely (other than kid stuff). She will get the message better than any letter you could ever draft.
Thank you Pilot. You may be right. You have convinced me to at least sleep on it.
^^^^ Good! Who knows, maybe someone wiser than I (and there are many) will chime in with a different opinion. Best of luck to you my friend!
Snooping will get you nothing but pain. No need to do it. You know , and show, that you do not trust her. She has given you no reason to.
The letter, sit on it, then burn it. Actions speak louder than words. What are her actions telling you? She is all over the place. She is not working on anything.
You can not control her. You can only control yourself. What do your kids need right now? Just like a broken record, focus on your life. Don't look at everything at once, break it down and deal with each task one at a time.
I have been where you are. You can work through this. The sooner you commit to the work ahead the better you will be.
kat
Thanks Kat and Pilot, helpful and wise as always.
I am now in full lockdown LRT mode, including no more snooping. Having been separated for over a year, I knew in the past she was dating other men, and likely more. But given that she was reaching out to me, I had to find out what I was really up against. And what I saw on her phone was really bad...
So I know the truth, and I know that today I will not send my "Just friends" letter. I will also not have any communication with her. That's all I can deal with right now. Tomorrow will have to take care of itself. ;-)
Yesterday, I moved the car insurance for W's 2000 Jaguar to her name. I am feeling guilty about this bc she doesn't have a job, and she did not get much $ from the emergency sale of her cats. Also bc I haven't paid cs this month (just haven't received any client payments this month.)
I'm just thinking out loud... I did this partly out of anger at what I learned from snooping her phone, partly bc if she wants to stand on her own then she should pay for her own bills, and partly bc I resent W's purchase of the Jaguar while our home was going through foreclosure which was one of the early signs she was moving on.
Why haven't you gotten paid this month? This is certainly something you need to work on to get that income steady.
Yes she needs to pay for her own bills. She may have to sell her little Jaguar. She has to figure out her mess and you need to figure out yours. Gee, she might have to work and grow up a bit.
Something to think about here...women do often marry a man for stability. That isn't usually the main reason but part of it. Did things start to fall apart when the practice started to fall apart? You need to fix this part for sure. Not only for you but for your kids.
kat
Hi Kat,
I am self-employed and if my Clients don't pay, then I have no money. Yes, I am now regularly sending out resumes and have had two interviews so far, as part of my GAL. I am done with being self-employed.
When our home went thru foreclosure last June of 2013, she never mentioned any problems, gave me an ultimatum, asked for us to go to counseling, etc. Of course I knew the loss of our home was horrible for everyone, but I never even dreamed a separation was possible. Instead, she told me 2 weeks before she left that she was taking the kids and moving in with her sister. I was going thru some pretty serious health issues (lung disease and infection)at the time, and with the foreclosure of our 20+ year home, and the disappointment of my job, I was depressed and completely checked out. This was a woman who for all of our marriage wouldn't even use the "D" word, even when speaking of other marriages. So I was blind-sided and destroyed.
Thank you for reassuring me about my W paying the car insurance bill. It helps.
Wet,
Do not underestimate the value your W puts on financial security. I do not know her or your financial situation, but it can be scary and even frustrating for a W who does not work and is used to always having money around, and then one day it dries up. I am also self employed and I get the 'if I do not get paid, then there is no money coming in' concept. I am comfortable with that. I grew up this way, and my dad grew up this way. My W parents always worked in a mill or factory, so they always had a set paycheck every month. She equated this with security. So while that may not be THE reason, or even a big reason, i am sure it did have an affect on her mindset.
What is the agreement regarding CS?
It's $630 per month, and it's not late until after the 30th. It's just I have always paid near the 1st of the month.
I've had a fun weekend. First, I have had D18 over. She is leaving to go to an out of state college on Tuesday. So I am enjoying time with her, she likes playing video games. And I also have S12 with we made up a new game at the pool - where we act like a soccer goalie and the other tries to skip a nerf ball passed the goalie. Another boy joined in, and it made for some laughs.
I'll see if D18 wants to stay to watch the World Cup finals game today (D19 lives with me) so it would be a full house. D17 is in Argentina for another 6 weeks. So our loyalty is solidly behind the Argentine team.
W tried calling me on Thursday and Friday and I sent her to voicemail. I only responded to her question on picking up son, and I did this with a text 2 hours after she called - a complete 180 for me. D18 says W is angry all the time at her for not helping unpacking boxes, which is why she spent the night. So I'm off to exercise and enjoy the day.
Ah OK - I am sure that it's good to let her handle her own finances, but respecting your commitments is essential if she values stability. Thanks for clarifying.
So glad you've had a fun weekend! I need to decide where, with/without company, will I be watching the world cup...
LRT since last Thursday. A good day with the kids. Just want to report W's weird behavior.
I told her I was bringing S to her place at 5 pm. She texts back and asks me to keep S over night, explaining in excruciating detail that her high school non-dating male friend was swimming at her place's pool, and he just broke up and he's crying (blah, blah, blah). I told her no (atta boy Tom, I don't do that too often, I'm no longer her friend, and it sounded stupid anyway.)
Then when I dropped off S, W as not there. I texted to let her know I dropped him off, and when she said she wasn't there, again she provided too much detail on her driving her friend home and she would be back in 10 minutes.
I wasn't asking her anything, yet she is going overboard with telling me what is going on with her. No expectations, no attention being given to her, I'm just documenting something that seemed odd.
A funny telephone call I received from W.
She sounded nervous, surprised I answered, and quickly moving from topic to topic. My gut tells me it is because we have not talked since I confronted her on the bad stuff I saw on her phone last Wednesday.
She again provided extra detail on ex-high school non-dating friend she saw earlier today. Making fun that he is still a cussing drunk. I didn't care. Then she asked if I was going on Tuesday to drive with her and D18 to the airport who is going off to an out-of-state college. I said I didn't think it was a good idea, and that I already said my goodbyes to her today.
After we talked for a bit, she paused, like there was something more she wanted to bring up, and I just said goodbye. More weirdness from W.
Hi Wet -
I've got to say, in my book you've done really well there. Either she's yearning for your attention and realising that it's not going to come for free, and that you deserve respect. Else, if she was playing games it's not working.
Either way, you have given her a pause to sit back and think about things. No more fun on the dating scene with a reliable ex in the background. I think this is the whole point of LRT, and detachment.
I hope this works out, but I think you're doing great.
As for the weird behaviour... like I said above, it's about trying to have it both ways from what I can deduce. I have not experienced it first hand, you're the one that knows, but from this perspective it's not that weird. It's almost rational!
Cheer
Mat
Thanks for the encouraging words Mat.
My W just texted me asking me for the 3rd time if I want to go to the airport to take D18 as she goes to her out-of-state college. I will wait an hour (180) and tell her again that I cannot go, because it would be a bad idea.
Something's up...
Hang in there. She reminds me of my S21. Sometimes he will ask over and over trying to get his way. I will say this worked better with his dad than me.
Stay firm.
kat
Hi Kat, you know I think you are wonderful. Thanks.
So I guess my W doesn't like to be told "no". She has pulled out a new weapon I haven't seen her use before, the 'guilt' dagger. She texted me back after I said was not going to the airport with W and D18 tomorrow by saying: "Ok, this should be about your relationship with D, but it is up to you."
No response is coming from me.
The funny thing is, the relationship you have with your kids is between you and them, not her. She is certainly trying.
This makes me think of my own struggle. When my ex was more than 1/2 way out the door ( and before I found DB , but more importantly, these boards) I tried everything to get him to see what he was doing. He didn't get that he was hurting anyone.
So in your case it is almost like she is treating you as if you left!
Thanks for thinking I am wonderful. I am glad to be helping you.
kat
Kat, you have an interesting perspective, I like it! I was more thinking my W was projecting. The real reason our D18 is fleeing the state is that she cannot stand to be around W, and all of the crap with W's promiscuous lifestyle (bragging about dating a 26 year old man. Yes, someone who really should be dating someone like our D19 and D18.) W's behavior is why I wasn't there, and her behavior is hurting all of our relationships with each other. And she blames me for hurting my R with D18 because I don't go to the airport with them. Whatever...