Moving on to chapter 3...
Link to my previous threads
Trying to stay patient Trying to stay patient- part 2 Tomorrow is our 15 year anniversary and instead of spending it with a drink in my hand laying on a beach next to my W (as we had been planning 8 mos ago), I'll most likely be having that drink in the local bar with a friend.
man sorry Tarheel. I know how much that hurts. This past 14yr anniversary my WAW wanted nothing to do with me and it was like not celebrating a birthday...but I decided to go out with my pals and have a few drinks and just kept in mind that "we're in a better place in our relationship now" (my C's words) because we are living in a more honest place. Who wants to fake being married with someone who doesn't want to be there? If you have to write a letter to her to get all this stuff out and then throw it away and become the DB robot we all become to survive: disengage your emotions (detach), no expectations. Then ratchet up the GALing. Dig deep man. You can do it.
So 15 yr anniversary came and went with the only interaction being W texting me late in the day saying she needed to go back to the place she interviewed with last week, so her friend would be picking up the kids. I didn't respond. Felt weird not contacting her, but what would I say- happy anniversary??
W's step mom sent me a happy anniversary text (I assume she sent one to W too) and FIL left a vm on the home phone. He tried calling again late last night and after having a few drinks with a buddy, I was real close to answering the call, but let it go. W doesn't talk to them very often, even though they live in town, so they have no clue what's going on. That's W's mess to clean up, not mine.
Took advice from my previous thread and sent W an email the other day about S15's bday dinner this Sunday. Just told her that we would meet her at the restaurant, didn't get a response.
GAL activities today- going to a movie by myself after work, then going to see what some friends are up to.
Feeling frustrated that after almost 9 mos after BD, I'm no closer to a decision either way. Seems like a lot of the threads I've read recently have made progress one way or the other and I'm thinking 'what about me?' I still struggle with detachment, but overall feel a lot better about myself and my life. Some of my changes- I take care of a whole house by myself, grocery shop, make dinners for the kids, laundry, take care of 4 animals, started working out, go to church, hang out with friends, more outgoing, etc.
Maybe I'm not looking at the small steps and am more focused on a giant leap. W does seem to be a little more open with me and will call/text sometimes for no reason. Never about R, but I've tried to use these small exchanges as opportunities to listen and validate.
Had dinner as a family for S15's bday Sunday- went well, not a whole lot of interaction. At one point I made a remark about W getting her own medical insurance, but later apologized through text. Stupid. Although she never said 'Happy Father's Day', the gifts from the kids showed thoughtfulness on her part. One was a jar full of my favorite snacks/candy.
During the day Sunday, the kids and I went to the pool. W and I had been texting earlier and I told her that if she was done talking with OM, I had no problem with her joining. A little while later she responded that she was thinking of all she needed to do, but getting some sun would be nice. She talked about joining us, but ended up too busy. I have no idea what that means as far as her contact with OM, but I suppose it doesn't matter to me unless we're trying to work on things.
W and D10 leave for vacation tomorrow and will be gone for a week. Will give me a chance to hang with the boys- we have a few small trips planned.
W text me the other day to say that she was hired for the job she had applied for. Starts mid July, will be working Mon- Fri and every other Sat from 9-5pm. I asked her how she felt about it and she opened up a little, until I asked her if this job was just about making money or if she thought it would help her find happiness. Got no response. Probably didn't word my text the way I intended as I was just trying to get her to open up about her feelings on life in general, not R. I hope she's making these decisions based on finding happiness and not feeling forced into quitting the vets office just to eventually afford her own place. Although that does mean less day to day interaction with her girlfriend she met OM through. Can't say I'm upset with that : ) Not sure what that means as far as her taking the kids a few times a week, but to me, it would seem more difficult for her to have them working a full time job.
Need advice...
W called me last night on her way to the house to pick up kids. Just a 5 min call and small talk that she could have made when she arrived at the house. She came in and had a seat, acting pretty comfortable. Normally, she'll wait in the car for the kids to come out or if she does come in, it's a brief 'let's go kids'. As she left, she asked if I wanted to pick her and D10 up from the airport next Thurs. I paused and she said to just let her know this week.
I text her last night just saying to have a safe trip. She responded with thanks and that she'd be checking email if I needed to get a hold of them. She then sent me an email this morning saying they were at the airport, then a text just now saying they're boarding. I didn't respond.
What I need help with is how to interact with her right now. I made it clear that I would not be friends with her while she is friends with OM. I have no idea what that status is, but she has been more friendly with me lately. I would gladly reciprocate, but I don't know if she's going back to cake eating or if she has ended contact and is 'testing the waters' with me?? She knows how I feel, so do I need to wait until she comes out and tells me there is no contact? Do I flat out ask her? Do I pick them up at the airport next week??
Tarheel,
I am at the same exact point in my sitch. Ten months since BD. OM still in the picture, but not sure of long term impact. W still seems to be in somewhat of a fog.
I have remained indifferent but cordial in all of my interactions in the last couple of months to avoid cake eating. I can tell things are starting to turn, albeit very slowly. Last month she would only nod or say hello at a kids sporting event. Last night she sent an email saying how nice it was to share our kids triumphs together. It was hard not to jump at that and ask "what does it mean". I rationalized that it meant that she is noticing that I am a good father and a good person. One that can take the high road in social situations even when it is uncomfortable. That makes me feel proud of my changes, regardless of outcome.
Stay strong. Be patient. And in my experience you don't have to be best friends to do the right things for your kids.
Tar,
Tough spot and I know you do not want to backslide. I would think as long as you "act as if" you have moved on with your life with our without her, that should help guide you. In other words, have no motives in your actions. Do not go pick her up from the airport, that is pursuing. Your positive upbeat attitude around her is meant to show her that you are able to live your life and be happy without her. I have not seen anything you wrote where it looks like she is making an effort to repair your M. Bottom line is stick with your principle of not being friends while the OM is around. If he isnt AND she wanted to reconcile, she will find a way to let you know.
Need advice...
What I need help with is how to interact with her right now. I made it clear that I would not be friends with her while she is friends with OM. I have no idea what that status is, but she has been more friendly with me lately. I would gladly reciprocate, but I don't know if she's going back to cake eating or if she has ended contact and is 'testing the waters' with me?? She knows how I feel, so do I need to wait until she comes out and tells me there is no contact? Do I flat out ask her? Do I pick them up at the airport next week??
Tarheel -
I am new & inexperienced w/ MLC so I cannot advise you well. Someone who has been around can do better.
I am also on a roller coaster now b/cause of H's behaviour which is contantly in flux. There are many times I don't know how to interact either.
These days, this is about 10 days of seeing a recent change in me, he's warmer & more like his old self. I think part of me
just shut down to him), I was so hurt. I suspect he sensed that I did not want him 'back' either & he got his own medicine although I didn't plan this. I was just turned off. Overheard him making plans for tomm. night so he clearly 'wants cake & to eat it too'. I am a conveneince relative to his options or luck at the moment. As one forum poster said (read so many can't remember who ), they are all 'academy award winning material'!
My body chemistry (!!) was being maxed to the hilt re how to handle this/that ... (had heart palpitations came
'out of nowhere' when I overheard part of conversation last night!! It surprised me how
my body changed in a second.
I was advised here to look after me, because the MLCer needs to do what they need to.
You should too, you have to concentrate on you. They will make you crazy because their thinking & behaviour is just that.
Advice was also given about 'going dark' -
Cadet posted some links for me (in
mlc rut), & there are stickies & endless resources embedded in forum posts.
Anyway, the point is whenever, I am in doubt,
I prefer to wait or not respond. I hope that a more experienced poster replies soon, as I too am curious as to how you should interect with your W. Until then,
think "YOU"take care, pbetra
Been a while since I posted, so I'll try to make a really long story as short as I can.
This past Fri night I found out that W had gone with OM (who she claims is just a friend right now) for the weekend to his hometown for his son's graduation party. Her phone was broken, so I immediately sent her an email saying I was done and that we needed to start the D process as soon as she returned. I also sent OM a FB message asking him to have my WIFE call me as I knew she was with him (he didn't reply and she didn't call). W emailed back the next morning saying that it was a last minute trip, other friends of theirs had gone and she didn't think it was a big deal. Also said she was done feeling broken, so go ahead with the D process.
We exchanged several other texts, emails, etc over the last couple days (some argumentative and others cordial) and I'm not sure where we stand now. As firm in my decision as I was in the moment (and have been leaning towards lately), my stance somewhat softened when she told me she had been reading/praying lately trying to find the 'right' answer and then I think about how final the decision really is. Seeing that I've heard that story before, I think she just knows the right words to say to keep me hanging. I know- weakness is not attractive.
The truth is I don't know where I stand right now. D is such a big decision and I don't want to regret making it in a rash decision, but her continued actions/decisions don't give me any encouragement that she's considering giving us a shot. It's been 16 mos since the first BD and I'm not sure how much longer I'm willing to feel in limbo. I either keep working on myself and enjoying my life/kids (which I'll do regardless) with the occasional WAW interaction that upsets me or go ahead and take the step to the next chapter in my life. I realize that only I can make that decision. Maybe my pride is standing in the way of being the one to start the D process. If there is any hope left, I'd hate for the kids to see me as the one who took the steps to end it. She could always claim she was the one still unsure of a decision, despite her actions.
Saturday, W had mentioned meeting tonight to 'talk', but I haven't heard from her today. Conflicted on whether I contact her and set it up or let her take the initiative. I suppose the 180 would be to let her do it, but I do feel like we've reached the point of needing to discuss R and hate the thought of letting this opportunity go. If we do meet, I'm fully prepared for her to say we need to start the D, so maybe that's the reason for my hesitancy?
To avoid this post being totally W focused, I did have a great time this past week with the kids. S15 and I went golfing, S11 and I hit up an amusement park for a day, the boys and I went to a movie, had a neighborhood cookout/kickball game, then last night took the kids to a baseball game.
Sorry to hear all of this. I would definitely let your W make the contact about meeting this evening. I can also see why you feel D might be your only option at this point. As you said, only you can really know your limits. Maybe the start of the process will be the jolt your W needs? Whatever you do, I hope you do not feel like the D is your fault...even if you do initiate the process.
Good luck buddy.
So Tuesday's gone with the wind and didn't hear anything from W last night about meeting up to talk. Still feeling pretty conflicted as I was half looking forward to having the conversation and half wanting to avoid it as I think it would have been the next step towards D. My sense of urgency in having this resolved is due to the fact that every detail or incident I find out between W and OM takes me one step closer to the point of no return.
I've always been a pretty indecisive person, taking plenty of time to research, weigh pros/cons, etc for even minor decisions. Doesn't help my thought process when I weigh 'am I done?' vs 'do I want to continue to DB?'
Tarheel,
Just getting caught up on your sitch. I can relate to you, as I am not sure that my W has any interest in R. I am also a methodical planner and researcher. From what you've said, you struggle with the same thing with your W showing no obvious interest in R. Don't forget she is probably very confused, and not really sure what she does want either, much like yourself.
I feel that truly you need to figure out what you want to do. As you saw when you were reactive, it really just created more troubles for you. I know because I've done it lots as well. Determine what you can stand with respect to the OM, and don't contact him. Your a much better and stronger person than that. Keep up the hard work. PMA all the way. I like your GAL activities and when you talk about what your doing with your kids. I truly believe you'll know when you know.
Not much interaction with W this past week. She did send me an email this weekend with her schedule for taking the kids this week. Mentioned starting her new job next week. Also said she hoped I wasn't upset for her not meeting me for drinks last week. She had a rough day/week and really was just looking forward to sulking on the couch after her real estate deal fell through. But she did get another offer and is hoping to close by the end of the month. Little details like that show me that she does miss our friendship. I didn't respond.
Maybe my patience is waning, but I've been thinking a lot lately on how I'm interacting with her. Re-reading my posts, it's been about 4 mos of the same story- min contact between us until I discover she's with OM (aka 'just a friend') and confront her. She replies with it's been a rough day/week, life is terrible, she needs to think about things, soul search, etc. Repeat every 3-4 weeks. Makes me wonder if I should be doing something different or if she just knows the words to say? Should I even care if she's just playing me until she starts her new job and can afford to live on her own? Guess my pride gets in the way.
I've realized my 'no friend while OM is in the picture' stance has softened lately, as evident by my asking if she wanted to grab a drink last week. Just felt like natural things to do at the time. I do feel like she has opened up to me a little more and can't help wonder if rebuilding our friendship is the first step. Feel like my only options are to kick her off the cell phone plan, insurance, etc (probably should have done this when I asked her not to stay at the house or will come across as a harsh approach out of the blue) and reinforce my no friend stance or see if she's willing to interact as friends.
Have an appt with IC tomorrow and looking forward to his advice as well.
Venting....
Another email last night basically asking my advise on her car situation. The monthly payment on her current vehicle is too high, regardless of what happens with us and she's mentioned selling it a few mos after BD, but what does she expect me to tell her? I don't even know how to respond (if at all)? I suppose both our names are on the title and we're paying for it out of our shared bank account, but why would she think I'd want to help her figure that out when she left me??? How much she/we can afford is obviously dependent on what happens with us, but she refuses to address that.
The mind of a WAW.....
Can you just tell her that you'll sign the deed over if she sells and that you trust her judgment on what she wants to do to replace it?
Or some version of that to give her what she needs to solve the problem on her own?
So IC said it sounds like I'm getting close to reaching my limit and that it sounds like eventually I'll need to issue an ultimatum to W as it doesn't sound like she's going to take any action. He suggested if I was going to give it a year, that I spend the next 3 mos being more aggressive in 'winning' her back. Suggested I extend invites to W and make it clear it's not to talk about R. That way, I'll have 3 mos to evaluate where her head is at. Opens me up to being hurt if she declines, but at least would give me insight into what she's thinking.
Thoughts?? (Especially from vets)
"So IC said it sounds like I'm getting close to reaching my limit and that it sounds like eventually I'll need to issue an ultimatum to W as it doesn't sound like she's going to take any action. "
You already gave her an ultimatum when you told her you were going to file for D when she went to the OM's hometown. Start the paperwork and don't pay any attention to her.
You have got to listen to these vets on here Tarheel. If you set an ultimate and not stick to it, she will know she can roll over you. I know it's hard but listen to Bond my friend.
You already gave her an ultimatum when you told her you were going to file for D when she went to the OM's hometown. Start the paperwork and don't pay any attention to her.
I did, but it was in the heat of the moment and I don't think I'm 100% ready to give up just yet. So I either file for D because I said I was going to and risk her going along with it, or risk coming across as weak by backing down from my ultimatum.
I'm not questioning the DB approach by any means (trust me- I would not be where I am today without it and can't thank this board enough), but I do see IC's point in if I feel I'm getting to the point of being done, maybe I try these last couple mos inviting W to things (no R talk, just friendly communication). I guess I see it as kind of an 'if we're done, what's it hurt' type move. It's a risky move because it opens myself up to being hurt should she decline and also goes against what I've been told on here, but it also could help give me the answer to if she's just biding her time and wanting me to make the move towards D.
Mr Bond, I wouldn't be pondering this decision so much if I didn't value your thoughts as much as I do. Talk to me (Sandi, you too)...
I'm not sure you understand fully what DBing is, but it's not all about just not contacting your W. I mean sooner or later you are going to have to talk to her. Initiating is also part of DB.
Mr Bond can you catch up on my posts igit neb in needs help
I've reached my limit. A friend of W's stopped by last week and said she heard she was dating. W and I text a little with me telling her I couldn't continue to live in an open marriage. She again gave me the sob story of being depressed, hurting and sad. Told her I wanted to believe she that was true but it was hard to believe when she's dating someone else.
Text on Thurs before her and the kids were headed out of town for the weekend asking to meet this Tues to try to come to some agreements before meeting with the attorney. She didn't respond so I sent her another text earlier asking if she was still able to meet. Her response was 'fine'
So 1 of 2 things will happen- she will either finally realize she's losing me and put up a fight or she'll agree with proceeding towards D. At this point, I'm OK with either. I plan on being very businesslike on Tues. Wish me luck, more to come...
I've reached my limit. A friend of W's stopped by last week and said she heard she was dating. W and I text a little with me telling her I couldn't continue to live in an open marriage.
I don't understand. What is different now and when you discovered OM?
She again gave me the sob story of being depressed, hurting and sad. Told her I wanted to believe she that was true but it was hard to believe when she's dating someone else.
Believe what? That she is depressed and sad? Look, has she actually said she was thinking of reconciling? B/c you are talking as if she has.
Saying things in the heat of the moment has been a problem for you since this all started. You are still trying to use emotional tactics to get a desired response. When it doesn't work, then you try to slide back out of it. By now, your words have become uneffective.
Why don't you just decide what you want and do it, without trying to put the emotional pressure on her? But whichever way you go, you need to keep your mouth closed.
Text on Thurs before her and the kids were headed out of town for the weekend asking to meet this Tues to try to come to some agreements before meeting with the attorney. She didn't respond so I sent her another text earlier asking if she was still able to meet. Her response was 'fine'
So 1 of 2 things will happen- she will either finally realize she's losing me and put up a fight or she'll agree with proceeding towards D. At this point, I'm OK with either. I plan on being very businesslike on Tues. Wish me luck, more to come...
I tried this approach in the beginning as well. I thought if I threatened her with divorce and even pushed the papers in front of her face it would make her wake up. Guess what? She filed on her own. Up until this point she was not even pushing for a D. This approach does not work and as sandi says, you have to be willing to accept the consequences of the threat unless your threats become idle.
I know it stinks knowing your W is with someone else. Lots of us here have to endure or have endured the same thing. But trust the vets here when they say there is NOTHING you can do to make them stop. No words or actions on your part will make them walk away. You cannot guilt them or reason with them. Its the fog they are in.
Keep your chin up and follow the advice of people like sandi and the others. It will give you the best shot at your M.
I know it may sound like a 'threat' or that I'm making a heat of the moment decision, but to be honest, I've been thinking about this a lot more serious since W's trip with OM to his hometown (whether other friends went with them or not) a few weeks ago. I'm fully prepared for her to agree with D on Tues (and assume she reluctantly will). Should she tell me on Tues that she wants to R or even try dating each other, I'd have to rethink things before even considering agreeing.
I'm not sure what finally made me reach the decision, but W's friend's comment the other day that W was 'trading in a corvette (me) for a minvan (OM)' really gave me a boost in confidence. Not that I think that highly of myself or my looks, but I've changed and grown during these past 10 mos. I feel good about myself and things I'm doing in life. W is losing out on a great man and father who has come to realize what I did wrong in our M. I can't convince her to come back. And she doesn't see what she's missing because she's more concerned with being 'friends' with OM. Not that I'm even close to ready to date, but I'm ready to get out there and 'share' the new me with someone special. And right now, W is not that person.
Maybe I look at this post tomorrow and regret making the decision, but I've had a few opportunities to back down from my 'threat' over the past week, and didn't. I've felt comfortable in my 'threat' this time- more at peace and not immediately wishing I could take it back. We'll see what Tuesday brings- I'll be sure to post an update.
Believe what? That she is depressed and sad? Look, has she actually said she was thinking of reconciling? B/c you are talking as if she has.
I'm sure she's hurting and depressed, but she's told me that month after month and continues to tell me that she doesn't know what she wants to do. I've looked back at emails from her 6 mos ago that say the exact same thing. Meanwhile, she continues to date OM. She denies it, but I seriously think she's been delaying anything D related until financially she's in a better place. My decision now isn't to punish her or force her to struggle financially. I was willing to be patient these past several mos because I wasn't ready to move on without her. I held onto hope while working on myself. This decision is really more about me and my readiness to move on than it is about W and her actions.
sandi2,
I must say that the advice you have given Tarheel on his entire thread since he came on here has been nothing short of some of the BEST advice I have ever seen. Just fantastic.
Tarheel,
I think you should go back and read every single post on your threads since you started on here.
I think you should not only LISTEN to sandi2, but FOLLOW her advice. She has been spot on with you. I don't believe you have really listened to understand what she has told you. I would suggest going back and reading every post from the date you started. She knows what she is talking about. She has been giving your GREAT advice from the start. You don't seem to understand it.
Tarheel,
Sorry I've been MIA in your thread.
It appears that you are waffling on your boundaries and it causing you some real difficulties. To learn more about setting proper boundaries, I'd suggest that you visit Dev's thread over in Infidelity some some pointers.
I think that you really do need to establish some strong boundaries that are not controlling nor threatening at all.
Thanks Wonka- yes, I've been following Dev's thread for quite some time now and have noticed several similarities in our WAWs.
Maybe I'm just impatient, but at some point we need to talk about our R. Do I still want to save my M (= start a new one)- of course. But I also think of alpha males like George Clooney, Brad Pitt, James Bond- would they remain M knowing their W was dating someone else? I don't know that my impatience is towards W not 'coming home' as much as it is me moving forward. I would feel guilty if I were to date or even flirt too much with another woman while I'm still legally married right now, so at some point I need to take the initiative. She's basically been dating for the past several mos (her morals) while I wait on things to play out before I'm able to take the same action (my morals). Does that make sense?
I did text W last night wishing her good luck at her new job today. She responded that she was 'soooo nervous' and questioning her decision. I validated and couldn't help feel that sense of friendship in her texts, but then noticed this morning that she called OM last night after we text. To be clear- I don't care, I know it's happening, but happened to notice that it was the 3rd phone call to him this month. No calls between them have shown on the cell records since Feb as they've been communicating by other means. Not to mind read, but found it odd- is she trying to show me something? Is she just comfortable with me knowing they're talking? Weird.
Would love to call W tonight to see how her first day went, maybe send a short text. My plan is to text her tomorrow with time/place to meet. I've prepared my topics we need to discuss moving towards D- kids, bills, etc, but contemplating how to start the interaction. Just jump right into it or maybe just start out non R talk and she if she brings it up- there I go again waffling on my boundaries, huh?!
So met W for drinks last night. We spent almost 3 hrs just talking and catching up. I made sure to look her in the eyes when she spoke, asked questions and validated as often as I could. Even tried an appetizer that normally I would not have (she's complained that I'm a picky eater and she's more adventurous). It actually wasn't too bad : )
So right before we went to leave, W made a remark about not really figuring anything out. We spent the next 10-15 mins talking about us and I came away with the following:
* W is getting tired of staying at her friend's place, but can't afford a place of her own. Feels like financial struggles are forcing her to come back home, which she doesn't want to do.
*She admits that as recently as last week she missed me and thought about hanging out. I think what I got from her is that ideally she'd be able to afford her own place, then the two of us could hang out and see if we'd be able to build a relationship from square one. I asked if she'd be interested in hanging out from time to time these next couple mos as I had a decision to make too, but didn't really get a yes/no answer from her. I didn't push it any further. With rebuilding trust being a big thing for me, I don't know that I could see her having her own place and me feeling comfortable that OM is not there while we 'date'. We'll deal with that should the time come though.
*I asked if she'd want to go to MC, not to commit to R, but rather to have a more comfortable environment to talk to each other. IC had actually suggested this to me. Didn't get an answer either way, but she said she felt safe talking to me.
*W admitted that she had been upset with me because I tell her that I understand (=validate), but then turn around and accuse her of things. I told her that I agreed with her- that finding out things such as her going away with OM (and friends) hurts, but I also explained that her actions don't always match her words (or how she tells me she's feeling). Lesson learned- STFU and continue to validate.
*We both agreed that with her new work schedule, having the kids overnight once they start school in late Aug is going to be very difficult. i don't see her being able to afford her own place by then.
Overall, I thought the night went pretty well. It's more time spent 1 on 1 than we've had since Jan, so had lots of catching up to do. I debated on getting right into D talk (since that's what I had 'threatened') and probably should have (I'm expecting 2x4s), but ended up just going with the flow as it was nice to actually talk with her. I feel like she did open up to me a little bit and it at least sounds like she's willing to consider dating each other these next few mos. There wasn't really a good time to address the elephant in the room (OM) and I didn't want to end the night on a bad note after being friendly for 3 hrs. I'd like to see how the next week or two goes- whether she reaches out to me or communication increases. I may try asking her out again in a couple weeks and gauge her response, but until then staying somewhat dark.
Thoughts??
Well, it seems I am the one to sound negative, but in reading your post, I could not see her encouraging you at all. Even when you pressed her, she would not give a straight answer. To me, that says she doesn't want to return to the M. At the very least, she's not ready. And she's not going to be ready as long as she's involved with OM.
What she said about not wanting to return home due to financial struggle is right. If that's the grounds for going back home, it's doomed before it even has a chance. The only way it will be successful is b/c she "wants" to be with "you" and no other reason (having the family together, or being able to live in her house, etc.) Although those things play a part of what she misses, it has to be "you" she returns to. Nothing else.
I hate to see you start dating her, knowing she's still involved with OM. But you have to do what you think is right.
At the very least, she's not ready. And she's not going to be ready as long as she's involved with OM.
I agree- As far as the OM, she continues to tell me they are just friends and I have no way of knowing if that's true or not. Obviously I think her actions show otherwise (going to a party out of town with him and friends). But I agree that he needs to be totally out of the picture if we are to R. I don't know how I feel about 'dating' my W while they're still in contact.
The only way it will be successful is b/c she "wants" to be with "you" and no other reason (having the family together, or being able to live in her house, etc.) Although those things play a part of what she misses, it has to be "you" she returns to. Nothing else.
Agree here too. Maybe I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt, but I do get the feeling in talking with her that she does want to be with me, but right now feels like she's being forced. She's told me numerous times that she only wants to work on things if she feels it's the right decision. And right now, I think she feels that money, living arrangements, etc are forcing her hand. If she had her own place with full independence and the reality of D, she'd feel more confident in feeling that it's a decision based on her 'wants' as opposed to being forced back. Or maybe I'm just mind reading : )
Agree here too. Maybe I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt, but I do get the feeling in talking with her that she does want to be with me, but right now feels like she's being forced. She's told me numerous times that she only wants to work on things if she feels it's the right decision. And right now, I think she feels that money, living arrangements, etc are forcing her hand. If she had her own place with full independence and the reality of D, she'd feel more confident in feeling that it's a decision based on her 'wants' as opposed to being forced back. Or maybe I'm just mind reading : )
It really could be one extreme or the other. It could be she really is conflicted and is considering trying to work things out, or she could be playing you and using the carrot of working things out to get you to help her afford a new place. No way of knowing that from what you have told us. However, take last night for what it was. A nice time with your W, you had a lengthly talk which was positive, and a brief talk about your M which answered some questions, and left some unanswered.
I would chalk last night up as a positive simply because you two had a nice night out, and from what you said it seems she had a good time catching up with you. That positive will go farther than anything you said in your M talk.
And yea, you HAVE to be sure OM is out of the picture before you start dating. If she is SERIOUS about working on the M and wants to start dating, she will be willing to answer questions about OM. I agree with sandi that she is not at that point, otherwise she would have given you more straight and enthusiastic answers about dating a few times over the next couple of months.
Keep your chin up. You had a good night.
I would chalk last night up as a positive simply because you two had a nice night out, and from what you said it seems she had a good time catching up with you. That positive will go farther than anything you said in your M talk.
Thanks Pilot, that's how I was looking at it too. There was plenty of smiling and laughing, so I'm hoping that carries over and she feels like we can spend time together without getting into a R talk. It was more like catching up with a friend than trying to win her back. Up until this point, the majority of our conversation has been reactionary and through text or email, so it was nice to finally sit down and just enjoy each other's company.
That's good to just be able to enjoy company. Try to keep that in your head moving forward. I see a lot if the same struggles I am having in my stich in yours. All the R talk, and getting pulled in. I have really been trying to focus on validating lately, trying to put all my thoughts and fears aside. I really like all the be a real man talk on here to. I think I need to step that up and think about that, and what it means for me. Take all that advice and our it to heart, looks like it could loosen the W a little at least, bad or good, but at least you can get somewhere. And remember the baby steps, might not seem like much, but to her it could be like crawling up a mountain to get there.
Tarheel,
Sandi has some good insights. I would add that you are not W's plan B or her gay boyfriend. Reading Ox's thread just depresses me as he's really acting like his wife's gay best friend. Not good. I hope you have read up a bit on Dev's thread to get some pointers on how to handle the OM in the picture.
You need to be the strong man here. Waffling back and forth isn't going to cut it for W since it isn't an attractive quality in a man.
Wonka, I've been following both their threads- quite a difference in how they handle, huh?!
Spent this morning re-reading Dev's threads. Has me all pumped up to send WAW an email saying no friends til OM contact is over. Of course I told her that back in March and then after a few mos, I've backed down
Wish I could change some things, but what's done is done and I can only go forward from here.
I know I just posted the other day that I was done, but our interaction the other night gives me hope that there's still something there. I feel pretty confident in an internal timeline of approx 2-3 more mos before initiating D. That will mean I've given 1 yr of working on myself and giving W the space she asked for. That gives her about a month's worth of having what I expect to be limited time with the kids due to her new work schedule and school starting. Now if I feel that I'm seeing some positive progress, I'm willing to extend that internal deadline. That will be the tricky part. So my question is how do I handle these next couple mos?- possibly the last couple mos of DB.
After the other night's meeting with W, in which we laughed, had positive conversation, seemed to enjoy each other's company and I got 'some' sense that she's willing to hang out more to see if we could build a new R (even though she wouldn't come out and say yes or no), I see 2 options. Keep in mind I don't know the current situation of OM. I know they are still friends (which she claims), but don't know if there is more than that right now.
Option 1- Now that we've had a positive interaction, try to keep them going by asking W out more often. My plan would be to give her another week or two to see if she initiates contact before I would ask again. This option is in line with what my IC recommended- allows W to see some of my changes and increased positive interaction. Also allows me to evaluate whether W has made changes. She's not the only one with a decision to make. At some point we would need to address OM contact, as I'm not sure how I feel about dating her while they are in contact.
Options 2- Communicate to W that I know her and OM are still in contact (proven by recent cell records) and that I will not be her gay best friend. Move W off of cell plan/insurance and deposit 100% of my pay into my separate account (I know- should have done mos ago). I do worry that this option would come across to W as out of the blue, especially since we just got together the other night. But this seems to be the more popular recommendation I see in similar situations and in line with previous advice I've received.
Calling all vets- all thoughts welcome!
Found out the apartment W is staying with her girlfriend does not allow dogs. W had been taking 1 of our 3 dogs with her when she takes the kids for the weekend. She loves her animals as much as she loves the kids, so that's got to hurt. Things are really starting to add up for her, so will be interesting to see if our sitch starts to change in any way.
Tarheel,
Can you please give us a bit info on what's going on with W and the OM from your intel? Try to detail as much as you can here. This way we all can support you on the best path forward.
Tarheel,
Can you please give us a bit info on what's going on with W and the OM from your intel? Try to detail as much as you can here. This way we all can support you on the best path forward.
Sure thing- I'll start from the beginning, sorry for the length but I want to be thorough....
W gave me BD 9/25/13. I checked cell phone records a day or two after and saw that first conversation had started in late Aug. During Sept, there were 1200 texts back and forth and a few phone calls. When I confronted her, she said they were friends and most of the texts were just jokes, etc. I also saw a text W had forwarded to her email from him around that same time where he said he enjoyed her company, felt like he didn't know what to say to her etc- confronted her and she claimed it was inappropriate and was planning on forwarding it to her work girlfriend so that she could tell him to back off. She had met him during last summer when she started hanging out with some work friends a lot more often. (She has since left that job, but still in contact with work friend)
The texts seemed to dwindle the next several mos, but the calls continued probably once every 5-7 days, some an hour or two long. She always told me that he had feeling for her, but she didn't know how she felt about him. She did tell me that he had asked her out, but she had declined, but at one point accepted, then declined at the last minute. She continued to say they were just good friends and I had no other evidence to the contrary.
In Jan/Feb, I noticed only 2-3 calls on the cell records, so assumed it was ending. We also seemed to be getting along pretty well around that time, doing family things, etc. In Jan I found 3 cards from OM- 1 for W's bday in Sept signed 'love you' with a $50 spa gift card (proved to me that he had made his feeling known prior to BD), 1 for Sweetest Day talking about 2nd chance for love and then 1 for Christmas signed ILY. Although inappropriate, I had no evidence of W's feeling towards him, so didn't say anything.
In March, W left her computer open and I found the following- email about a soulmate article from W to OM (he replied saying he felt the same), a 'love' playlist to him and then several topless pics. Confronted W with the evidence and she claimed the pics were never sent and that the playlist she had started to create for her and I and that she only sent it to him to make sure it wouldn't show publicly. We had a pretty good talk about their relationship and she relayed that they had gone on a few dates, had 'fooled around', but no type of sexual contact (which she still insists on). Also said she talked to him through skype every few days- she knew calls on the cell records would only hurt me. Shortly after this discussion, I told her I didn't want her staying at the house while she was in a relationship with him and that we weren't friends as long as she was friends with him.
Calls on the cell records have stopped, other than 3 calls to his home number earlier this month. Instead, I know they text each other through fb and probably still skype. When I see cell calls to work friend, then bank statement shows she went out that same night, I *assume* OM went too?
In April, W sent me an email saying that she had made it VERY clear to him that they could only be friends. That weekend, a buddy of mine saw her at a bar with him and others. Said they looked pretty cozy and at one point OM had his hand on her butt. W denied this. W's best friend (I've known for 15 years and is in a different circle than OM)claimed she didn't know how serious things were between them until shortly before that, so I know they were something more than friends.
Fast forward to a few weeks back when I found out that W went with OM (and other friends she claims) to his hometown for a party. She was gone the whole weekend, but said she didn't think it was a big deal. Best friend actually told me who she was with and that she thought I knew about it. Really?? W hasn't been straight with me when I ask her about their R, but I did ask her if they were more than friends when she got back from the weekend and she said 'no, not right now.'
So long story short- I know at one point something was there (Jan-March timeframe), how serious, I don't know (or maybe don't want to admit). As of now, she tells me they are just friends, but I have no way to prove/disprove it. She tells me she's hurting and depressed and trying to find the right decision, but in my eyes, her actions don't seem to match her words. One of W's friends (live out of town) did stop over last week and told me that best friend had told her that W was dating, but I don't know if that meant currently, had been?? I text best friend after that and flat out asked her- she said that was something I needed to ask W.
I think I posted this in Dev's thread, but if W does decide to come back, it's either going to be 'what do I need to do to make it work?', which I don't see her ever doing because I don't get the feeling she thinks she's done anything wrong OR she'll want to try to date me to see if there is there is a future. In that case, I could see how she would have no desire to end OM 'friendship' until she knew if we were going to work out. But how would I feel about dating her while she's *possibly* dating OM (I have no way of knowing the truth).
And for what it's worth, I've been checking the FB pages of OM and that circle of friends (including former work friend) for quite some time to see if I'd ever find a picture of the two of them or anything to indicate their status, but I've never seen anything. After my blow up and fb message to OM when I knew they were out of town, he has since locked down his fb page. Guess he finally got smart about it.
Tarheel,
Thanks for the information and sequence of events.
It is patently that W is in an A with the OM. Discussing whether it is EA/PA is just semantics. You heard that from the good friend that W is "dating" someone. Who dates while they're married??!!
You have some decisions to make here. Do you want us to support you in taking the Dev approach or continue waffling?
Dig deep and look within.
Do you:
-like seeing what's happening?
-like the fact that W is "dating" the OM?
-accept this arrangement?
What do you want to do here, Tarheel?
TarHeel,
Thanks for the synopsis. It helps spell out your time frame a bit better. Your tag line always left me wondering. As Wonka states, you need to figure out which way to go. It's not easy. In my sitch, it's easier because she is not denying the PA or the A, just the significance of it. It's really tough to do, but it seems to me it's fairly obvious what your W is doing.
She's not making any decisions because she doesn't have to. The fear of losing her keeps you in the sitch right now, I know, because I'm the same way. My W wants to be friends, states that is a prerequisite for R, but won't end her A with OM. She wants it all, and doesn't want to make a decision.
I look at it like this, your W is already making decisions about what she wants to do. You have to figure out what YOU WANT. Make your plan, stick to it, and assess what happens. What's your worst case scenario? If your W leaves, she's already gone. That's how I'm looking at it
I know your in a tough spot. Good luck with your thinking, it's not easy at all.
Dev
Wonka/Dev, I do think I need to take a harder stance similar to Dev. Not only for any chance of MR, but also because I'm not going to continue to live in an open marriage.
So W dropped off the kids earlier. We were friendly for a bit, then she went to leave. I told her that we both knew she was dating ('I wouldn't call it that') and that I could no longer live in an open marriage. We talked for a bit and I probably came across as pleading at times but tried to ask for her thoughts. Long story short, she reiterated that ideally we would D, she would get her own place, then we would try dating. I told her that I wouldn't date while she was in contact with OM. She said she had no problem giving up contact with him and had over a few month time frame during the winter. Because we can't afford 2 places, we talked about trying to date now. Again, I told her I wouldn't do that with OM in the picture.
At the end I told her that we should both think about it and she could call me this week to talk about it. She said she'd call me tomorrow.
I agree with others that she's not ready for R just yet, but feels forced. She wants to get a real feel of being on her own, but she simply sees no way of affording that anytime soon. I don't know where to go from here other than to hear her out tomorrow. This won't work if she's not ready, so I worry, but the alternative sounds like waiting another year(?) before she's in a place financially to do what she'd like to.
Tarheel,
Okay, we would be happy to offer you support and guidance through the no OM boundary. We would love for you to try to stick with this...it'll be the HARDEST thing you've ever done in your life. It can be done.
I told her that we both knew she was dating ('I wouldn't call it that') and that I could no longer live in an open marriage. We talked for a bit and I probably came across as pleading at times but tried to ask for her thoughts.
Why plead? She should be the one that's PLEADING for your mercy. Why ask for her thoughts when W has given you clear signs that she's not giving up the OM?
Long story short, she reiterated that ideally we would D, she would get her own place, then we would try dating.
Damn that shell game again! Don't you see this pattern at all, Tarheel?? I see it coming a mile away! Sheeesh...she's good at this shell game.
I told her that I wouldn't date while she was in contact with OM. She said she had no problem giving up contact with him and had over a few month time frame during the winter.
She's being flippant by making that sort of comment. She's trying to placate you so she can have more time with the OM. Don't you see this at all?!
Wake up...wakey, wakey....Tarheel!!! slapping your head on the upside
At the end I told her that we should both think about it and she could call me this week to talk about it. She said she'd call me tomorrow.
Whaaa? What? What's there to "think about" here? It is freaking obvious, and in fact clearly stated by W, that she has elected to continue her A with the OM. What's there to discuss??
but the alternative sounds like waiting another year(?) before she's in a place financially to do what she'd like to.
ARE you willing to wait another year to watch W keep running to the OM and carry on an active affair with him? What about your self-respect? What about your family?
Is this okay with you?!
Trust me, W is probably cooking up another shell game to pull on you when you guys talk tomorrow. Just keep your EYES WIDE open for that sleight of the hand trick.
What you need to do is clearly state that you will not be in an open marriage with W and that you will not be friends with her as long as she chooses to contact him. Close it strong with this comment, "it is downright disrespectful to me and to our family."
Then GO DARK on W.
Wonka, I knew you were going to give me that advice
It's still a tough pill to swallow though.
When we spoke the other day, I did make it very clear to W that if we decide to 'date', she needed to give up all contact with OM, (which she said she would be- we'll see). I also told her that it was disrespectful to me and to the kids to be contacting him, especially if the kids were with her. Maybe I shouldn't have revealed my cards, but I told her that I was ready to date (whether it was her or someone else) but that my morals don't allow me to date someone else while I'm still legally married to her. Probably wrong of me, but also threw in a dig at the OM not being a real man- getting involved with a married woman with kids. Disrespectful in my eyes.
She questioned what people would think should we get back together. I think that's a big fear of hers- she was always very close with my family since her family is not around here. Told her if we did R, we needed to take one step at a time and not look 10 steps ahead. Maybe I'm doing all the heavy lifting (ok, I am), but one of us has to, right? And as I mentioned before, she will not come back asking 'what can I do to make things right?' because in her mind she has not done anything wrong.
Deep down in my gut I really do think (hope?) that W and I will agree to dating here soon and then I'll have a new set of questions and issues. Maybe that's why I've been hesitant to implement a tougher stance?
As for yesterday, she did not call me. **Mindreading alert**- I did see her on and off FB quite a bit at one point, which made me wonder if she was breaking things off with OM through messenger. Probably not.** She did text me earlier in the day about picking up the kids and seemed to prolong the conversation- asking what we were doing, telling me where she was, etc. She had the kids last night, so didn't have any place to call me in private.
I'd like to give her til tomorrow to call me. That will also give me time to really think about your recommendation Wonka. I know it's what I need to do- stand firm for myself and for the kids, but it's alot easier said than done. I've been fairly dim for the past 6 mos, initiating very few conversations, but I need to make sure I'm 100% prepared to go dark.
Well, it seems I am the one to sound negative, but in reading your post, I could not see her encouraging you at all. Even when you pressed her, she would not give a straight answer. To me, that says she doesn't want to return to the M. At the very least, she's not ready. And she's not going to be ready as long as she's involved with OM.
What she said about not wanting to return home due to financial struggle is right. If that's the grounds for going back home, it's doomed before it even has a chance. The only way it will be successful is b/c she "wants" to be with "you" and no other reason (having the family together, or being able to live in her house, etc.) Although those things play a part of what she misses, it has to be "you" she returns to. Nothing else.
I hate to see you start dating her, knowing she's still involved with OM. But you have to do what you think is right.
So Sandi, could it be that it is for him, she just does not want to admit it or actually realize it?
My MC said that even though my WW returned home and said it was for S16 and Finances, that she tells the MC she likes to spend time with me, she enjoys being with me etc.
The MC said I should not ever point out to the WW that its also for me, but I should know that it is, that the ww returned to the home not only for the kids.
I am just asking how can you tell the real reason, as they say believe nothing that you hear.
Tarheel,
Sandi has some good insights. I would add that you are not W's plan B or her gay boyfriend. Reading Ox's thread just depresses me as he's really acting like his wife's gay best friend. Not good. I hope you have read up a bit on Dev's thread to get some pointers on how to handle the OM in the picture.
You need to be the strong man here. Waffling back and forth isn't going to cut it for W since it isn't an attractive quality in a man.
Wonka,
Why do you believe this?
Can you please elaborate on my thread? I am just following what I think will work. My WW claims the OM is just a good friend at this point. there is no physical Affair anymore.
Once he leaves the USA she has committed to focus on us.
S
o Sandi, could it be that it is for him, she just does not want to admit it or actually realize it?
I would say no, b/c it's not usually the mindset of a WW. It is, however, the way some LBH'S want to believe. There could be some variation in some stitches, but my first thought would be "no".
My MC said that even though my WW returned home and said it was for S16 and Finances, that she tells the MC she likes to spend time with me, she enjoys being with me etc.
May be true, or the MC could have asked her if she enjoyed spending time with you.....in which she may, but she still wouldn't be ready to be your W in every sense. IDK how she was approached by the MC, etc. Is it posted in your thread?
The MC said I should not ever point out to the WW that its also for me, but I should know that it is, that the ww returned to the home not only for the kids.
The WW will often want the kids, home, finances, position, lifestyle, etc., but not necessarily the H. If the MC was not extremely plain, miscommunication was very possible here.
I am just asking how can you tell the real reason, as they say believe nothing that you hear.
Mostly time will tell, if she has other motives for really returning home. If she refuses to work on the problems and make changes, that's a pretty big flag. Some are not interested in being intimate, or even being in the same bedroom again.
I would have a thorough agreement and plan in place. Do not take for granted she feels what this MC is telling you. I'll have to continue this on your thread.
I do think I need to take a harder stance similar to Dev. Not only for any chance of MR, but also because I'm not going to continue to live in an open marriage.
But you tell her this and then you consider dating her while she's dating OM. That really weakens your position.
Be honest, when she started to leave and you announced you would not continue to live in an open marriage, weren't you hoping it would cause her to finally end it with OM?
It's like when parents tell the kid if they do such & such he will get a particular consequence. So kid does it and the parent doesn't carry through and decides to give him another chance. The child learns not to pay attention to the words, only the action.
You react out of emotions and say something...then later you back down. Or you say something to add some pressure, hoping she'll think harder about R.
Forget your time limit you've set on W coming back to you. All it's doing is pushing you into pushing her....and she's clearly not ready yet. You will know when you are done, but it won't be according to a calendar date.
Personally, I feel if you start dating her while OM is still in the picture, then all these months would have been for nothing. Better to hold out a little longer than to void what you've been saying all this time. It just seems to cheapen it someway, like you're giving up part of your dignity. But that's JMHO.
Be honest, when she started to leave and you announced you would not continue to live in an open marriage, weren't you hoping it would cause her to finally end it with OM?
You betcha and I would warn everyone reading this that you can't take actions or say things with the intent of receiving your desired result. Everytime I've backed down from my words, I end up looking weaker and desperate.
Personally, I feel if you start dating her while OM is still in the picture, then all these months would have been for nothing. Better to hold out a little longer than to void what you've been saying all this time. It just seems to cheapen it someway, like you're giving up part of your dignity. But that's JMHO.
I made it clear to W that if we did decide to date, she would have to agree to no OM contact. I will not subject myself to 'dating' my W while she continues to date another man. I suppose if we were to date, I would have to take her word that she is not contacting OM until a time would come that we both decide to R. At that time, I would address the full transparency plan, correct?
Of course, all this dating talk could be for nothing as I've yet to hear back from W. She told me she would call on Sun to talk more in depth, but she had the kids, so valid excuse in my mind as her place has no privacy. Did not hear from her last night either- she and her girlfriends usually get together on Mon nights for a tv show. She has no excuse not to call tonight, unless she's having 2nd thoughts. From our talk on Sat, I got the feeling that her calling me was only a formality to confirm it, as it sounded like we were on the same page with giving it a shot. Maybe I was just mindreading?
How long do I excuse her not calling before I enforce the 'OM contact= no friendship between us' stance?? I don't want to risk ruining the possibility of dating by sending that email while she's in the middle of dialing my number....
Forget your time limit you've set on W coming back to you. All it's doing is pushing you into pushing her....and she's clearly not ready yet. You will know when you are done, but it won't be according to a calendar date.
Sandi, this part didn't really sink in until the 2nd time I read your feedback. Something to really think about.
W picked up kids earlier for the night so I'm not expecting her call tonight either. She actually came into the house, which usually doesn't happen, and was nice and friendly to me. I just happened to be cleaning up from dinner and sweeping the floors, so maybe that gained me some bonus points
She also went upstairs and possibly saw that I'm reading a book on how to build an A proof marriage. Actually I hope she did- shows that 10 mos later and I'm still trying to learn better R skills.
You betcha and I would warn everyone reading this that you can't take actions or say things with the intent of receiving your desired result. Everytime I've backed down from my words, I end up looking weaker and desperate.
I think one can most certainly take actions or say things with the intent of receiving a desired result. IF you back up your statement (I will not be in an open marriage) with your actions, how can you not get your desired result? You either will NOT be in a marriage because she wants an open one, OR she will drop the OM. There, you got your desired result, just as your statement said.
However, I still think that statement in and of itself still communicates from a position of weakness. To me it says, I will still take you back if you drop other man. Maybe it's just me, but I believe women are attracted to strong, confident, decisive men... It seems that a statement like
" We can date when the OM is out of the picture", still gives her the option of waiting it out with the OM. It seems stronger to leave her with the impression of...
"I'm not really sure how I feel right now. I'm not sure that even if OM is out of the picture that I would want to date again."
I believe THAT attitude is the one that causes them to begin to wake up and start to ask the right questions. They have to FEEL they may have lost you. Trying to be strong on one hand while showing weakness on the other doesn't seem to work too well from what I have read and seen. This also automatically takes any and all pressure off of her. Once the pressure is gone it is amazing what can happen.
You can still treat her nicely, but your whole demeanor changes. As Michelle says, you let them believe you have had an awakening. I have seen it again and again, that once the betrayed starts to really show they have let go, is when the wayward suddenly shows signs of coming back and WANTING to try again. As I read your thread it is quite apparent that you are really allowing this to be your wife's decision. You DO realize that you also really really do get a say in this don't you? It isn't coming across to me like that.
Just my opinion.... Good luck
I do worry that I'm giving W the impression that this is all her decision. I'm fully aware that I have a decision to make too and I've told W that. What I want most is just the chance. I know that after a few dates, I could realize that W has not made any changes and we're not going to work.
Still no call from W regarding our conversation last week. I can imagine she's still not sure she wants to take the dating step. She did pick up the kids earlier and came in the house again to get them. She asked me how work was- I couldn't tell you the last time she asked me that. Although it might of been her way of getting me to ask her the same, because she then had no problem telling me about hers
Just weird how we can have a conversation like nothing's different, but then she'll walk out the door without saying bye.
Tarheel,
I do worry that I'm giving W the impression that this is all her decision.
It is the choice for the WAS to end the A. You cannot do it for her, right?
What I want most is just the chance.
Just the chance for what? Could you please elaborate on this a bit more so we can understand better your thought process here?
She asked me how work was- I couldn't tell you the last time she asked me that. Although it might of been her way of getting me to ask her the same, because she then had no problem telling me about hers laugh Just weird how we can have a conversation like nothing's different, but then she'll walk out the door without saying bye.
I hope you're keeping the convos short for you are not her best friend. Try to keep your answers short and those interactions brief because she's still with the OM.
That is the boundary you need to enforce on a consistent basis so she'll get the message loud and clear that you're not "Plan B".
It is the choice for the WAS to end the A. You cannot do it for her, right?
I meant that I worry I give her the impression that I'm just waiting around for her to come back and that I'm the one that will do anything to make it work. I have a decision to make as well.
Just the chance for what? Could you please elaborate on this a bit more so we can understand better your thought process here?
The chance to work together on things. I'm fully aware that if W hasn't made changes on her end, I may realize that we're not going to work. I just don't want to look back in 10 years and regret not doing everything I could have- including a chance at MR via dating
So after picking up the kids from W and being frustrated that she didn't at least come out and acknowledge I was there, I text her...
M: You never called me last week....
W: I know. Been thinking a lot. Why don't we plan a 'date' this week?
So we're planning on a 'date' on Wed. In a way, I feel like the pressure is on to plan a date that demonstrates some of my changes- more outgoing, adventurous and willing to try new things. I have a couple ideas, but open to suggestions.
My thought process is that I'm willing to go on a couple dates before addressing OM contact. I made it clear last week that I wouldn't 'date' her while they were in contact, so I don't feel I need to restate my boundary if she's proposing this. After a couple dates (if we make it that far), I would want to ensure she's holding to it, so may need to revisit. Thoughts??
Tarheel,
I'm gonna cut right to the point here:
Are you okay with being in a triangle with the OM if you elect to "date" W while she's involved with the OM?
Another thing is that it makes your boundary all moot. Then what's the incentive for W to end her A with the OM right now?
Are you okay with being in a triangle with the OM if you elect to "date" W while she's involved with the OM?
No, but how do I insure that's not happening unless she would come back saying 'I'll do whatever it takes'? My W is too proud for that- after 10mos she'd have to admit she was wrong. Right or wrong, I simply do not see her ever saying that. This is her 'I'm going to date Tarheel and see if he's changed' approach. Which I'm fine with, knowing that OM contact will need to be re-addressed should we continue to 'date' more than say, 2-3 times.
Maybe I'm wrong (and vets would obviously know better than me) but I imagine the WAS either comes back saying 'I'll do anything' or they test the water before jumping in. And to be honest, I would like to see W's changes before I'm ready to jump back in myself.
Tarheel,
People in A's don't think clearly...all their thoughts are focused on getting the next "hit" from the OM/OW. Which is why we all stress not dating the WAS until the OW/OM is COMPLETELY out of the picture.
Hey...the way I look at your sitch is that your W is getting the best of both worlds without feeling any consequences for her choice to continue her A. This is because she has zero incentive to do so because you're not doing anything to show her what a real loss looks like without you.
I am not seeing it here at all. You're just too fear riddled to say to W, "nope, there will be no dating as long as you are involved with OM because I refuse to be in a M with a third party."
When was the last time you told W that you are not willing to be in a "open" M with the OM?
When was the last time you told W that you are not willing to be in a "open" M with the OM?
Last week when we talked about dating. I told her I wouldn't do it if she was still in contact. Lying or not, she said that wouldn't be a problem. And maybe she has ended contact with him. So I either trust her (I know..) for the time being (I'm talking 2-3 weeks max if we would continue dating) or ask her to hand over her phone now, which only comes across as controlling and scares the squirrel away. I'm not trying to argue, but I don't see it as she has to be 100% in just yet. I'm not myself 100% right now. We may go out Wed and realize it's not going to work out.
Are you proposing I don't go on the date with her? Continue to enforce the no OM contact until she is actually ready to work on the M? I'm not trying to claim we're anywhere close to piecing, but I don't think feeling each other out is a bad thing right now. See if we're compatible, have the same goals, attracted to each other, etc. So then maybe that means my answer is that I'm fine with her staying in contact with OM (or not knowing) until we both decide to reconcile???
Are you okay with being in a triangle with the OM if you elect to "date" W while she's involved with the OM?
No, but how do I insure that's not happening . . .
A: By assuming that it IS (still happening).
Tar, the burden of proof is on HER at this stage, and to date her now is going to completely wash away your boundary, and make everything 5x harder for you going forward.
LISTEN TO WHAT THESE PEOPLE ARE TELLING YOU! You are way too close to it to be seeing it clearly right now. Frankly, this one isn't even close as far as decisions go. (Not to say it's EASY, but it is SIMPLE).
Starsky
Tarheel,
Let's break apart your responses here a bit in order to gain some insight and clarity on the boundary-enforcement process.
Last week when we talked about dating. I told her I wouldn't do it if she was still in contact.This is where you really, really need to stand firm and not waffle. It sends a message to W that you are serious about not being in an open marriage with a third party.
Lying or not, she said that wouldn't be a problem. Of course not...she's trying to have it both ways. Nuh no...it's not how it works at all.
So I either trust her (I know..) for the time being (I'm talking 2-3 weeks max if we would continue dating)You can't trust a person who is in an active affair. Read above what Starsky said about the burden being on W to come clean about her ongoing contact with the OM.
Remember about the shell game? That's how I see W playing it here right under your nose.
ask her to hand over her phone now, which only comes across as controlling and scares the squirrel away.So what? You're protecting the M and the family. Just take a look at Sho's thread in Infidelity to get some ideas on how he's handling this very thing with his W.
Are you proposing I don't go on the date with her? Continue to enforce the no OM contact until she is actually ready to work on the M? Not proposing...but actively encouraging you to stay on the path of no-OM boundary. I wouldn't date anyone as long as they're involved with someone else. I have too much self-respect to engage in those silly, sophomoric games that I left behind at the middle school I attended more than 30 years ago. That book is firmly closed for me!
I'm not trying to claim we're anywhere close to piecing, You're no where even close to that by a long shot...heck, you're not even in the reconciliation phase either!
See if we're compatible, have the same goals, attracted to each other, etc. Wait a slow cotton-pickin' minute right there! Are you telling me that you still not sure if you and W are compatible after 15+ years of marriage (oh yeah...dating too)??!!
This doesn't make any sense at all to me.
So then maybe that means my answer is that I'm fine with her staying in contact with OM (or not knowing) until we both decide to reconcile???
Tarheel, no offense, I wouldn't want you on my debate team for your thought process is quite illogical.
You CANNOT reconcile as long as the OM is in the picture.
No, but how do I insure that's not happening unless she would come back saying 'I'll do whatever it takes'? My W is too proud for that- after 10mos she'd have to admit she was wrong. Right or wrong, I simply do not see her ever saying that. This is her 'I'm going to date Tarheel and see if he's changed' approach.
FWIW, I had way too much pride. I personally believe that stubborn "pride" the WAS clings to is a tough road block in the reconciliation. Pride is one of the reasons a WAW in an A finds it so hard to apologize. I think it was a year of being here on the boards every single day before I finally swallowed my stubborn pride and apologized to my H.
You know her better than we do, b/c we don't know her at all. But let me say this, I believe it is a mistake for the H to compromise his boundary regarding an open M. You want so badly to show her what an improved H you would be....until I wonder if you are giving her this leeway about OM.
If you agree to date her before she ends the A, I think the bigger message to her is that she can cheat and you'll work around it. Therefore, even if she moves back in, you can expect another affair. B/c in spite of changes you try to show her, what has she leaned from her own choices? What work has she done? You are trying to by-pass the fact she is still just like she was when she left.
If you agree to date her before she ends the A, I think the bigger message to her is that she can cheat and you'll work around it. Therefore, even if she moves back in, you can expect another affair. B/c in spite of changes you try to show her, what has she leaned from her own choices?
^^ In other words, Tarheel, your credibility is on the line here.
Tarheel - you have received some pretty sound advice from some wonderful people here. I suggest you follow the path the offer. While, yes, you know your wife - it's fair to say she's not the W you married correct?
A woman NEEDS to respect her H. By you dating without putting your foot down firmly about OM she knows where she can push you and where you will allow her to go with it. It may make her angry in the beginning but I would be willing to bet she would respect you more once the anger subsides. Trust me from a woman's perspective I have a guy that found out about H and I. He has been promising me the world he is very wealthy and offers me anything I want. I'm not interested. I want someone that isn't so desperate. Harsh to say but it's the truth
Please listen to the great advice of these wise posters
Wow, where to start?! First of all, I thank all 3 of you (and others) for taking time out of your own lives to provide insight and advice to me. I hope I don't come across as argumentative, just trying to explain my thought process. I'll try to address some of the points/questions you've posted...
the burden of proof is on HER at this stage
Is it though? She hasn't come back to me saying she wants to make this work, only that she wants to give dating a try to see how we feel towards each other/interact. I think that we're still too early for her to feel she has to prove anything to me. If we were dating in order to rebuild a new R, I would totally agree with you.
I wouldn't date anyone as long as they're involved with someone else.
This is exactly what I told W last week and now she's asking me out. So prior to Wed, should I ask her what the current status is as far as contact? Something along the lines of 'W, I would enjoy going out with you Wed night, but as I mentioned last week, will not do so if you are still in contact with OM. Are you able to prove to me that your friendship is over?'
Are you telling me that you still not sure if you and W are compatible after 15+ years of marriage (oh yeah...dating too)??!!
One of W's points is that she doesn't know that if we met today, that we'd be attracted to each other. We've both changed this past year- I've made changes in myself and she's obviously made changes that I would have never imagined (ex- OM). If this person is the 'new' W, will I still want to be with her? Maybe I'm different than others on here in that after 10 mos of DB, I'm not here to 'win' my W back. I don't know who she is anymore. I'm fully prepared to go out on a couple dates with her and say to myself 'Tarheel, W doesn't make you happy, move on.' Maybe she's not willing to budge on things that I think need improved in our failed M? Our failure wasn't solely my fault and if she's not wanting/willing to fix her stuff, maybe I'm better off moving on. If I've learned anything from these past 10 mos, it's that a successful M takes 2 committed individuals.
You CANNOT reconcile as long as the OM is in the picture.
I agree 100% and I don't think that our date Wed is the first step in reconciling. I see it as the 1st step in establishing better communication, hopefully leading to an eventual reconciliation.
What has she leaned from her own choices? What work has she done?
I have no idea, and I guess that's my whole point in not knowing if we'll move forward after our date on Wed.
Maybe I am too close to things to see through the fog. Maybe my thinking is flawed. Nobody on here, including me, know W/OM's current status. She's told me the past several mos that they are just friends who hang out with the same circle of friends. Maybe they are just friends?? or maybe they are planning on getting M and W is throwing me a bone as they both laugh at me???? But until W and I begin to hang out more, I have no way of knowing her intentions.
If you don't think Wed's date is a good idea, please tell me how I approach W and how/what I tell her since I had agreed to it yesterday. Is it 'hey, you still in contact?' or 'until you prove it to me, I'm not going?'
And I just want to clarify (for what it's worth) that we haven't agreed to date on an ongoing basis, we agreed to 1 date this week.
Hey, Tarheel!
Just chiming in to echo the others here. I'll add:
If you are trying to demonstrate what a changed man and H you are, it'd be smart to show her that you've become a confident, self-assured, decisive one.
Look, here's the deal: you are trying to re-attract your W. I get that. But I think - despite your words at times - your actions are suggesting that all your self-improvements have been made to try to sway HER to pick you over OM. You've had 10 months to work on you for YOU. And your sitch smacks of fear. If your changes had been for YOU, I think you'd be longgggg over the fear stage by now.
And the only thing that's going to re-attract your W is seeing a confident, decisive, firm-yet-charming Tarheel.
Let's think hypothetically for a minute. Let's look a few months down the road and say you and your W are together. Is the Tarheel you've been lately also the H you would be? Are you willing to allow her, as her H, to hang out with a man with whom she's clearly having an A? No? Then why are you being that man NOW? Your M is doomed for failure if you're going to feel/act/behave differently, in a would-be committed relationship with your W, than you are right now. You're setting the bar right now. (And I'm ASSUMING you really DON'T want to be in an open M, even though it APPEARS you're certainly willing to be right now.)
What would you accept from W if she was living back home? Accept THAT now. What would you NOT TOLERATE in your M? Stop tolerating that NOW.
My biggest piece of advice would be to stop acting out of fear of losing her.
Be a man. A MAN. Not a waffling, bumbling guy she can lead around by the nose.
You're being PLAYED, Tar. You've got enough women on here telling you that. You can believe it.
Also, your W may have pride. But don't fool yourself into believing (or convincing yourself) that it stands in the way of her coming back to you and wanting to repair your M. My H has cheated on me twice in eight years, the first time bringing home a pregnant OW. I was CERTAIN that his pride the second time would keep him from falling on his face and asking "what will it take" to come back home. Think about that: a baby. And a SECOND A. Trust me: NOTHING will stand in the way if she wants to work on things with you. Nothing.
But you really need to back off and let her reach that point. She'll never fully get there while you're letting her keep a foot in your door and one in OM's. I mean: why would she? She already has you on a string. And her needs are being met by two - count that: TWO - men. Why should she change anything?
Just read your other post, Tar.
You say you're not on here to win your W back and you don't even know who she is anymore.
I'd say she's given you a GREAT picture of who she is right now. And you're still wanting to go on a date with her??
Train - if you ever have the time to read through my sitch id appreciate it. It's kind of long and a mess! I have received tons of great advice already but I have read through your threads and really liked your stance to your H.
the burden of proof is on HER at this stage
Is it though?
ABSOLUTELY!
She hasn't come back to me saying she wants to make this work, only that she wants to give dating a try to see how we feel towards each other/interact.
And that alone should tell she's not ready and/or serious. How many other stories have you read of WAW's saying similar things when they have OM?
I think that we're still too early for her to feel she has to prove anything to me.
Then she isn't motivated to work on a M with you.
If we were dating in order to rebuild a new R, I would totally agree with you.
OMG ! Listen to yourself. You are trying to make yourself believe the cr@p she's fed you.
I wouldn't date anyone as long as they're involved with someone else.
This is exactly what I told W last week and now she's asking me out. So prior to Wed, should I ask her what the current status is as far as contact? Something along the lines of 'W, I would enjoy going out with you Wed night, but as I mentioned last week, will not do so if you are still in contact with OM. Are you able to prove to me that your friendship is over?'
With all she has done to you and now you have a problem asking her about where she stands with OM before you date her??? I think you already know in your heart. You are deceiving yourself.
I'm tired of trying to get you to see what is staring you in the face. You are not thinking with the right head! You are looking for some loophole for dating her. Instead of her learning hard lessons....it seems it will be
you getting the hard knocks, instead.
the burden of proof is on HER at this stage
Is it though?
ABSOLUTELY!
YES.
If she WANTS to date you, she knows what you've at least TOLD her would be the one prerequisite.
If she is
committed to wanting to date you even one time, she'd likely say something like: "Hey, Tarheel, I think I'd like for us to date. And I know you said that I'd need to end things with OM for that to happen. Just wanted to let you know I have."
And then a strong Tarheel with conviction would say: "Dang, Mrs. Tarheel. That's awesome. I'd like that, too. But I need proof. In the form of a no-contact letter. And, oh, there's this transparency plan ..."
Tarheel, all I can use is my own experience. My H sent me a text at midnight one night that said: "Just wanted you to know I just ended things with OW. I told her I don't have time for a relationship right now. But just between us, I need the time to clear my head to find out how, and to what extent, I'm going to repair my relationship with you and the kids."
A day later? He was telling her he wanted to be with his wife again.
So, yes. The burden of proof is SQUARELY on Mrs. Tarheel right now.
You've shown her your changes, right? What's a date going to prove? Do you think you need to show her MORE changes? Are you thinking that's the answer? That that's gonna tip her over the edge?
You've shown her your changes, right? What's a date going to prove? Do you think you need to show her MORE changes? Are you thinking that's the answer? That that's gonna tip her over the edge?
To be honest, I don't know that she has seen my changes. Her main complaints about me are that I'm not adventurous, I'm not outgoing, I don't like to try new things....Besides last week's dinner together, we've had very little social interactions that would allow me to show my changes these past 10 mos. So I guess, yea, I am thinking a date gives me that opportunity. Probably flawed thinking but maybe an interaction like this makes her feel like our M would be different and convinces her to take the action you described from your H.
All of you have given me a lot to think about and I truly value your advice. Even if I decide to go on Wed without addressing OM, I want to be clear that OM contact
would be addressed soon if W and I make date #2 or 3.
Tar,
FWIW, my H saw my changes without dates. Because I said I wouldn't date him as long as OW was in the picture. And I meant it.
Just food for thought.
I totally agree. You need to stand strong and be confident in your changes without taking her on a 'date' to show her. Let your changes radiate from you. Don't you think it'd be a 180 to decline the date until OM is out of the picture for sure? I still think that you need your wife to respect you. She wants the MAN she married - not the man that is afraid to upset her. I know we talk about not scaring the WAS off but I believe this is different. Show her what you will and won't tolerate. She will respect you more in the long run. Right now she is poking around to test the waters
All of you have given me a lot to think about and I truly value your advice. Even if I decide to go on Wed without addressing OM, I want to be clear that OM contact would be addressed soon if W and I make date #2 or 3.
What's the matter with you, Mr. Wet Noddle??!!
Sandi, a former WAW with XOM has chimed in with her perspective...
Starsky, a LBSH with a W who had XOM chimed in with his perspective....
Train, a LBS whose H had an XOW chimed in with her perspective...
They all gave the same advice and their marriages are all restored. If I were you, I'd listen and take their advice NOT to go on even 1 lame-o date with W.
What's the matter with you, Mr. Wet Noddle??!!
Sandi, a former WAW with XOM has chimed in with her perspective...
Starsky, a LBSH with a W who had XOM chimed in with his perspective....
Train, a LBS whose H had an XOW chimed in with her perspective...
They all gave the same advice and their marriages are all restored. If I were you, I'd listen and take their advice NOT to go on even 1 lame-o date with W.
Wow, this might as well have been directed at me. H and I are about to separate and I was pushing for dates between us without the kids. But he still has an OW. What was I thinking? Actually, I know what I was thinking, that it's really scary to let go. But I need to.....
Hey Tarheel...what's up? How are you doing? Please update us when you get the chance.
Well, as of now, I'm still planning on going forward with tomorrow's 'date'.
I know that I've been advised by several of the wisest vets on here not to go forward with it, but I really feel that it's the right thing to do (for ME) at this point (I know DBing is usually the opposite of what you feel is right). I can't begin to express my gratitude to each one of you for getting me to this point and I really hope you'll stick with me as my sitch continues, even though I'm going against your better judgement. Does this feel like a rebellious teenager going against their parent's advice?
Maybe I've done a poor job of documenting my current sitch, stressed the OM/W relationship too much on here, or just blind to the facts, but I really do feel that this is W's way of testing the waters on if a new M between us would be better than the old M. And to be honest, I feel the same way about tomorrow- am I able to get over the anger/hurt/resentment? Am I able to envision any type of future with this person or have I moved on? I may never know if I don't have these type of interactions with her...
These past couple most I've realized that my desire to DB is starting to wane and am not satisfied continuing to 'wait' on a decision from W much longer. I have to make decisions for myself. I've GAL'ed, I've been patient, I've given W space/time. I feel great about my changes and the leader I've been for my family/kids. I'm good with moving on with or without W at this point and feel myself ready to put this chapter behind me (one way or the other).
So my plan- go out tomorrow, treat it like a 1st date with someone I've just met and enjoy the company. Should we decide to go out again, I WILL address OM contact, trust me on that. If we don't decide to continue and instead decide to D, I can look back and truly feel that I did everything I could without regrets.
Does this feel like a rebellious teenager going against their parent's advice?
No, it just feels FOOLISH.
You are leading with your feelings and from a place of fear, instead of wisdom and experience. That rarely works.
Good luck.
Should we decide to go out again, I WILL address OM contact, trust me on that.
Why would we "trust you" on that? You've shown yourself to be a man whose words and boundaries mean very little, if anything.
You were looking for everyone to validate what you were GOING to do ANYWAY, and when we didn't . . . you're asking us to "trust you."
Sorry, I don't.
This is going to set you back.
"but I really feel that it's the right thing to do (for ME) at this point (I know DBing is usually the opposite of what you feel is right)."
This isn't even DBing. It's the fact that YOU want to control things which isn't what your W wants.
"but I really do feel that this is W's way of testing the waters on if a new M between us would be better than the old M."
Unless she actually told you this, this is all mindreading on your part. You can't predict what she thinks any more than you knew she had an OM.
"These past couple most I've realized that my desire to DB is starting to wane and am not satisfied continuing to 'wait' on a decision from W much longer. "
Then you never understood what DBing is all about. Your W left for a reason and it took her awhile to get to this point. A few months of "change" on your part (change that you only did to expect her to accept) isn't enough unless SHE INITIATES. That's what everyone is telling you.
No offense, but I gotta be honest with you, Tarheel... I can't imagine I'd be willing to go on a 'date' with my H if I knew he was seeing someone else. I mean, she already dated you and committed to a life with you. And now what? Is she on the "Bachelorette" and you are trying to compete for her affections over another guy? It just does not feel like you are entering into this as equal players. Now, if she said, "Ok, I think we are ready to see if we can make a go of this. I want to reconnect with you and rebuild our life together. I'm still scared, but ready to put my all into it," I think our responses to you would be different.
But now? It feels like a no-win situation for you. I have a feeling that you might walk away feeling like you don't really want to be with her anymore. Are you looking for justification to stop DBing? I don't think that going on this date at this time will allow you to say you did "everything" you could.
If I knew my H was seeing someone else, I would absolutely not enter into a competition with her for his affection. I would just continue to be the woman (and mother of his child) only a FOOL would walk away from.
Good luck, whatever you decide.
If I knew my H was seeing someone else, I would absolutely not enter into a competition with her for his affection. I would just continue to be the woman (and mother of his child) only a FOOL would walk away from.
. . . and
that's attractive.
If I knew my W was seeing someone, I wouldn't be entering into a competition either. This is exactly what I told her last week. She said she was not dating anyone and that she would be willing to give up OM friendship/contact if that's what I needed to date. Seeing that she asked me out a week later, I'm under the impression that that has occurred. If I decide after a couple dates that I want to continue our R, I will require proof. If we were D and she called up wanting to date, I wouldn't require a full transparency plan from her in order to go on that first date. 10 mos after S, I don't see our current sitch much different.
Maybe I wasn't clear in an earlier post or didn't include it, but WE talked about dating in order to see if we had a future. We left the conversation with the agreement that we both should think about it and then she could call me. She then asked me if I wanted to go out on a date this past weekend.
I refuse to believe that the only way a couple can reconcile is if the WAS gives the 'what do I need to do?' speech. Is it the most effective? Probably.
If I knew my W was seeing someone, I wouldn't be entering into a competition either. This is exactly what I told her last week. She said she was not dating anyone and that she would be willing to give up OM friendship/contact if that's what I needed to date. Seeing that she asked me out a week later, I'm under the impression that that has occurred.
And as everyone -- including people who have SUCCESSFULLY FOUGHT AFFAIRS, AND RECONCILED THEIR MARRIAGES -- has pointed out to you, this is a NAIVE impression, at best.
"I told her" means nothing. I can assure you, she is judging your ACTIONS, Tarheel, not your WORDS.
I refuse to believe that the only way a couple can reconcile is if the WAS gives the 'what do I need to do?' speech. Is it the most effective? Probably.
You've horribly misrepresented the "method" that people are recommending to you, but setting that aside for a second . . . why would you NOT want to use the most effective method? So you can instead do what FEELS RIGHT or FEELS GOOD to you?
Leading with your feelings, Tar. Leading with your feelings.
Tarheel,
You are one deluded dude.
If I knew my W was seeing someone, I wouldn't be entering into a competition either.
How would you
know? Catching her in the act of IC with the OM??!!
This is exactly what I told her last week. She said she was not dating anyone and that she would be willing to give up OM friendship/contact if that's what I needed to date.
Man...don't you see it here at all?
If she would be willing to give up OM tells me that she's still in contact with OM. That is the damning statement right there.
Seeing that she asked me out a week later, I'm under the impression that that has occurred.
Whoa! WHOA! That is a massive misinterpretation of what's actually taking place on your part. You cannot continue Bo Beeping in complete, utter ignorance of the reality of your sitch which is:
W is still actively involved with the OM and she's continuing to play you with her shell game.
It is as simple as that.
We all are VERY, VERY interested in hearing about your lame-o "date" tonight with W.
Tarheel,
How are you? Feeling raw? Feeling down? Feeling great?!
What's happening with you? Everything okay with you?
Date went well! We had dinner, then did a wine tasting. I think she was surprised I had planned that because I've never been much of a wine person. We've actually gone before with family and I pretty much sat to the side in my stubbornness. We had a good time just chatting. I made sure to give her my full attention and ask lots of questions.
The only R talk we really had is me asking her why she wanted to go out. She just replied something about feeling like it was worth giving it a try and asked if I agreed, then changed the subject so I didn't ask anything further.
I dropped her off and she thanked me with the biggest smile I've seen from her in the past 10 mos. I didn't ask about going out again and she didn't mention it either.
So my plan now is to stay dim and see if she reaches out to me. I felt like I needed to give her 1 night of showing her the 'new' Tarheel since we don't interact much, although I'm treating this more as dating a new girl as opposed to winning my W back. I know that I will need to ask her to prove no contact with OM at some point should we go out again, just unsure of how I feel about at what point that occurs (before next date, a couple more dates, etc). I know your thoughts on it
Tarheel,
It sounds like a positive interaction. I would still keep my guard up for you never know if she's playing both sides. Eyes wide open!
Positive of the day- W actually called me. Basically an unnecessary call from S15's phone to tell me she had forgotten her phone at a family friend's house. We talked for about 15 mins regarding her work yesterday, a real estate deal she has going on and our schedule for the kids today.
Was surprised she actually called while at the pool, in front of the kids and her friend (who she stays with) to tell me something S15 had already text me earlier.
Just need to watch out for cake eating.
So earlier W stopped by to pick up the kids and D10 said she didn't want to go. W tried to talk her into it, but D10 stayed with me (at the house). I could tell W was upset so sent her a text after she left basically saying that D10 had been grumpy lately, enjoy just being with the boys.
She just sent me the following email and I'm open to any advice on how to respond (if at all)...
'I know that D10 was just being- D10, but it doesn't feel good when she doesn't want to come with me...It hurts. It [censored] because I totally understand. They want to be at their house, with their things, and their pets and friends...I hate that I have to stress about picking them up and taking them home. I feel like my life has completely turned upside down and yours hasn't. Now, I know that's not true. I know that you feel completely distraught by me leaving the marriage/home, but In terms of our assets and routines and "home"...you have it all...Just my feelings. I'm trying to get better at sharing those and let you know where I'm coming from.'
W called me again this morning and text me last night. Just about bills or kids, but her initiating contact has increased, for what that's worth.
Tarheel,
You go first.
What would be your normal response to W's email?
It would be so easy to just say 'then why don't you come home and we can work on this?', but I know that's a decision she needs to reach on her own.
I guess my response would try to be as understanding as possible- thanking her for sharing her feelings, I understand how she could feel upset, etc. The old Tarheel response would be to try to 'save' her- can we set up a schedule for the kids? Do you want to get together and talk about it? What can I do to help?
But it's natural to want to respond with how I feel (since she brought it up), which I'm guessing I shouldn't. I feel that this is a great opportunity since she's opened up to me a bit, so don't want to screw it up.
That's a small start. Here's your homework:
Validation: Cheat Sheet Study it up a bit and then formulate your draft response to W here for feedback. 'K?
I would reply "I understand. This has been very difficult on all of us."
Shush...Starsky!! Do I need to spank you??
I wanted Tarheel to work at this himself a bit. Sometimes I can be a stern taskmaster because I want newbies to learn the tools and apply themselves.
Sowwy.
Let's have a drink...you with your Scotch [and your ever faithful cigar] and me with my trusty Amaretto..
Tarheel,
The Email sounds to me like your WAW is living with consequences of her actions right about now.
One thing I did a couple of times when my W said "I know you are distraught and this is killing you." is say back to her " I'm ok please stop telling me how I feel. I am dealing with my feelings the way I feel is best for me."
It took about 3 times of me saying this over the months before W stopped making that statement.
It is nothing big but to me it felt good to not hear that from my W everytime she wanted to talk.
All of that talking took place before I moved home though now not so much
Hang in there
Ok, first draft...
'W, I appreciate you being open and honest with me regarding your feelings. I can imagine that it's difficult for you to open up right now to anyone, especially with me. I understand how you must feel hurt when the kids don't want to go with you and agree that they would probably refer to stay in their 'home'. Do you have any thoughts on how to handle it? Maybe having a set schedule would help, especially once school starts. I'd love to hear more about what you've been going through and how you feel.
(Not sure if I should include this section as it's more just me venting about the situation she's put me in. Feel free to strike through) This has been difficult on all of us. I'm sorry that you feel that I have it all right now, but I hope you realize that it's a struggle for me too. Staying at the house is great, but I also get to deal with all that comes with it- cleaning, groceries, bills, maintenance, meals, etc...However, as difficult as this situation has been, it's also given me the opportunity to step up and be the leader of this family that I wasn't for the past 15 years.
That's great to hear that you're doing well at the new job- I'm proud of you.'