Hi all,
Been married for almost four years now (we're both 38, no kids). W started an EA with a colleague, and when discovered (she was doing it pretty much in plain sight, but in any case I got proof and confronted her).
She has announced that she doesn't think that she was ever in love with me, that she is unhappy in the relationship and needed to get out to have a chance at happiness. First thing I did, when she went to stay at a girlfriend on the first night after the "event", was to download Michele's conference, and took about 10 pages of notes of things I wanted to tell her. The next day we drove out to the country for lunch to discuss it. I poured by heart out to her, basically telling her about my failings and how I believed that I could fix things by changing. I basically summarised the seminar for her, in between tears.
No need for anyone to point out that this wasn't the thing to do, but I did it. I have Michele's books on order from Amazon and I can't wait to read them through.
I am under no illusions that this will be a long, steep climb. She have been together for about 7 years, but have gone colder physically in the second year only. Yet still got married. Because I hadn't had much experience in relationships, I just assumed that this was the way we were, and that the deep bond I felt for her was as good as "passion". I had no idea what connection was or meant. The flood of information and understanding I got from watching the seminar was painful because it was all so obvious in retrospect; why couldn't I handle this before? W doesn't think this would have made a difference, because we were never meant to be.
I suppose the house situation is a bit complicated, it's a hole right now as we are waiting for license to complete works. W is at a hotel for the week. Will not be able to afford these rates indefinitely, however. She's quite intent on moving out and cutting off asap.
She has a different interpretation to mine. She can't believe that I stuck with her for so long, and although I am not the man she would ever fall in love with or have children with (I don't think this is a serious desire on her part anyway), because she was such a B during our whole marriage. Her words. She did struggle with depression. Long before the separation, when she was telling me that we didn't have a connection, that I didn't talk or showed interest, that our relationship was doomed, I put it all on the account of the depression. I was so stupid, to assume I was smart enough or have anywhere near enough knowledge to make such an outlandish assumption.
Thus far (it's only been 4 days), I have reached out to friends and family for comfort. I was moved and delighted by how thoughtful they were, even when I hadn't spoken to them in a while. I will keep my powder dry and I cannot keep tapping them to get a quick fix of comfort, but just knowing they are there is amazing. W has been telling me that it's good that I talk about my feelings, that's not something I ever do.
It's a bit frustrating that she's so "good" about all this. Everything she says is expressed as taking my needs into consideration too, for instance:
- that I don't really want to stay with her anyway
- that we'll both be happier this way
- that we should remain friends
She has said she would end the EA immediately, that she needs to figure herself out.
So I guess, like everyone else I am looking for support and advice. One thing I am unclear on is the "not chasing" bit. How do you signal that your heart is open without coming across as chasing? Now that my cards are on the table, who's to say she won't pick up the books and figure out my tricks? If she finds a boyfriend, at what point do I start going on dates myself or do I not do that at all? I mean, I guess that I am confused as to what signal staying alone and waiting (and sure, while working on you and taking classes and whatever) sends to the spouse. It sounds like a passive position, and not a seductive one. But I haven't read the books yet, maybe it'll be clearer soon. Failing that I may get a coach...
Thank you for reading
Welcome to the board
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Well I've certainly taken steps. Read through the 7 steps in DR, sitting outside at a neighbourhood pub in the sun.
Today I was not too pleased with myself that W came in to the house to pick up stuff (in my absence), and I hadn't thought to hide the book. I should have put it away somewhere, knowing she might come by. I don't really want her to see I'm trying to remedy the divorce - certainly not read through the techniques. Pretty sure I remember a couple of Sandi rules about that. That won't help me achieve success on the LRT.
But an old friend is coming to town, and invited me along to a music festival with friends. All females. So I think it's fair to say I'm applying some of Cadet's advice above, but hopefully it's not too much. That's for the last weekend of this month.
In the meantime, we're meeting on Saturday to talk about next steps. She booked herself for a second week at the hotel. I am thinking she's starting to feel comfortable there. Until then I have to think of my goals (though at this point all I am supposed to do is LRT; in fact perhaps not thinking about goals too much will prevent me from getting ahead of myself??). I'll run them by this board. Hopefully you'll have the time to give me some feedback.
I have to say, I have my down moments, but I'm almost worried about how well I'm doing given the circumstances. But I suppose that the relationship was hard on me too; and I've thought about ending it at times. My wife suffers from depression and had breakdowns that not all husbands would have put up with. So I am not sure if this is the right way to see it, but I may take this as an opportunity to create the relationship with her that I wanted when we met 8 years ago. I know she's the one; but I am keen to start from scratch and do the work on myself. And have a good time as far as is possible.
Any thoughts welcome, obviously. Just the support shown on these boards feels really good. But I'll have something more meaty to share at some point, if anything I plan to ask for feedback on my goals, the "what will success look like" points, etc.
I really, really like Michele's approach. In many ways, it is so similar to how you'd improve performance at work. Which gives me an idea...
Mat,
If you can't afford a hotel, why are you paying for one? Or is she? (does she work outside the home?)
Although she claims she is cutting off her EA, being squirreled away alone in a lonely hotel room is going to give her ample space in which to conduct an EA, unencumbered.
Starsky
Hi -
I had to read back what I said. I guess I'm just frustrated to be paying. She can afford the rates from her salary - but that's it. That and some food. So that would require some support from me if it was made into a permanent solution.
So I'd say it's not sustainable longer term, but for a month it's not crazy since there's nowhere else she can go. We've agreed that we'd come up with a more permanent solution. So next step will be to work out her budget, and what kind of appartment she can afford. If she's decided that she absolutely wants to separate, she should be able to support herself. Other people with the same job in the same city do it.
The EA is a bit of a worry for sure. But I don't know what else to do; I can't keep her by force. Mortgage is in my sole name; so are the bills. She can walk out anyway, and she has been very clear that she needs the space. There's no family (we're expats) or friends that can take her in for now. But she'll need to figure something out soon.
That said I welcome suggestions and appreciate them. I don't want to come out argumentative or defensive, but talking these through does help surface my reasons and it's very helpful to me.
So next step will be to work out her budget, and what kind of appartment she can afford. If she's decided that she absolutely wants to separate, she should be able to support herself. Other people with the same job in the same city do it.
OK, good deal. One very common mistake newbies make here (esp. us "fixer" men!) is to try to shelter our walkaway/wayward wives from any consequences of their walking away. It's best to let them find their way, and to give them space (while not directly paying for them to conduct any affair).
Starsky
Sounds reasonable. It is hard to find a balance between being a decent, helpful friend and a doormat (which is especially important, since avoiding that will be my 180).
But I also have to take (some) responsibility for having handled too much of the admin in our marriage (bills, calling the plumber, you name it). W even remarked, as she was leaving and wondering whether she needed her passport, (staring into space, as if talking to herself) "I don't even know how to check into a hotel anymore". So she was a bit overwhelmed as to where to go, so instead of taking the opportunity to make her stay in our marital bed I found her a reasonable place.
So you really make me reflect with your point about not sheltering her. So I think going forward I will explain to her what she needs to do, where to find the info, in writing (in fact I did just that about the service light that came on in the car, which she's using right now), only ONCE. Some of these instructions will involve using google...
I have to say, I have my down moments, but I'm almost worried about how well I'm doing given the circumstances. But I suppose that the relationship was hard on me too; and I've thought about ending it at times. My wife suffers from depression and had breakdowns that not all husbands would have put up with. So I am not sure if this is the right way to see it, but I may take this as an opportunity to create the relationship with her that I wanted when we met 8 years ago. I know she's the one; but I am keen to start from scratch and do the work on myself. And have a good time as far as is possible.
Well done, you are a quick study. Glad you are holding up so well, but make no mistake your heart is still in shock and i think you know that sooner or later you will be riding the waves of an emotional tsunami. Make notes of what you are doing now if anything that is keeping you grounded during this...you'll need it later.
Is she showing off and on signs of depression?
Can you tell when she gets triggered? It might be all about you, right? Is she on meds?
Wouldnt worry about the book. Sure she knows you are trying anything to save the M. Now that you ar DBing you are able to make it casual and covert.
Good on your GALing. Keep detaching and remember no expectations. My WAW stopped giving me compliments on how I looked, good things I did around the house, the way I was with kids because she didnt want me to think we were reconciling by complimenting me. OUCH. Not that I need her approval but now I just expect nothing even if I catch a smile she is trying to hide.
and the best advice ever: Believe NOTHING of what you hear and only HALF of what you see. S waffle like crazy
And yeah transform yourself into the best man you can be and she won't be able to resist you. Dig deep and go forward bro
Thanks rayzzz your encouragement is really comforting. Admittedly I write positive to make sure I stay positive (trying to create a "positive spiral" of sorts). And it's working pretty well.
Amid the pep talk you do bring up a serious issue, that will be central going forward. How to deal with depression. My wife was adopted, and grew up a large family where she felt alienated (other kids were biological, not the same race), and not treated/considered on the same foot as others. So abandonment issues, not feeling loved, etc. Her bio parents also had history of such depression, so there's likely a biological component in addition to environmental.
She does show off and on signs of depression. At the beginning of our relationship, in fact, she was planning to kill herself. She was even thinking of setting me up with one of her friends so I wouldn't be alone! Thankfully, she went to therapy and was on meds for a short while.
Breakdowns can be triggered "by me", e.g. I don't respond or show interest and she'll go silent for a day. Jealousy can be a factor too. But other triggers can be at play too, for instance spending time with her parents dredges up bad memories and/or feelings.
Right before the breakup she was starting to feel "lost" (her words). She tried to get therapy. I got the gold plated private insurance at work - which is not that common here in the UK - specifically so she could get free sessions. She tried but they messed her around. She was throwing herself into her work and being successful, but in her words that was to avoid thinking about how numb she felt and how little connected we were.
This numbness is basically what she calls her malaise. She says that she doesn't know what being loved or loving someone feels like. She doesn't feel love, anger.
Enters other man. Signs her songs on the guitar, invites her to come work and hang out at his home, talks to her about his love of Jesus (though his version of Jesus seems to have a casual attitude to the sanctity of marriage, but anyway). She liked how it made her feel, so she kept on seeing him. I eventually caught her "officially" (because I saw it coming).
And here we are.
Oh man - went to dinner with W. Now I'm worried she's going to read this forum, but I don't know where else to go.
She pressed me to find out how I felt, without giving much away herself other than she's as happy as she's ever been! She also said I looked "sad". Here I am, smiling, talking about my projects and what I'm up to, but she insists I am sad. I can't keep coming up with new evidence of a full and rich life. I'm a homebody for a start!!
Bit of tension about money. One minute she wants nothing out of the marital assets, then gets upset when I say that the cost of her hotel should be taken into account when figuring out a settlement.
I guess the most infuriating thing is how she's still reiterating that we were just friends all along, and that I'll be better off without her. She got upset and defensive when I told her that my sister thought she looked a bit down last two xmases (we only go back home once a year). She feels insulted that I put the breakup down to her state of mind, as if she didn't know what she was talking about.
I think my dissatisfaction is a) because I didn't manage to manoeuvre out of getting into an argument about the possibility of repairing the relationship, hence looking clingy, and b) trying to appease her when she got upset.
I ended up telling her not to worry about cash, that I'd loan her money to rent an apt if she really wants to go live separately. And I said I was sorry for implying her state of mind clouded her judgment, as I am sure she has her reasons and I am not the one to question them. This is the main insight - I really have to be better at not questioning her, because she'll defend her choice and she'll be more steadfast in her desire to stay apart. I know it's in DR, but it's really hard to apply in practice.
In spite of reading all the books, I'm still a rookie on the actual field. It's sobering thought. I couldn't help but argue back a bit and admit that I'd try to work on marriage if she let me. It was like a chess match and I can't play chess. How can I validate her if she only says she's happy? The only point she makes is how much better off we'll both be. I'm not sure how to validate that.
Anyway - lots of footie and boxing to watch tonight while I decompress. Go England!!
... oh and maybe I got a bit smug at the beginning. She was really asking some questions about the music festival I'm going to, so I thought she was getting jealous. Asking whether the friend that invited me was still single, remarking on how pretty she is, asking who else is going to be there.
That said, she may really be keen to see me move on, and hoping I have a tryst with someone!
Asking whether the friend that invited me was still single, remarking on how pretty she is, asking who else is going to be there.
That said, she may really be keen to see me move on, and hoping I have a tryst with someone!
Sorry you are going through all of this. As it was pointed out to me, you might want to avoid any situation where you find yourself involved in a potential "fling" with another person. I invited an ex gf to my 3 year olds birthday party knowing my wife would be there. Yea, it might get your W thinking...but in the end it is not going to benefit you. So in the future I will just avoid any reference to another woman I am associating with, even if only friends. Better to let them just wonder.
Best of luck to you
Oh man
I need to have Sandi's rules tattooed on every part of my body. Just had a conversation with W on the phone. At least it convinced me that I really need a coach now, but I wonder if I messed up too much.
After my somewhat unsuccessful dinner (chronicled above), I decided to start figuring out the practicalities. Genius that I am, I sent her a mail with ideas for apartments she could get and ways we could split marital assets as part of a D.
She ended up calling me just now, a bit upset about bringing up D without having talked about it first. So I apologised, and took it as a sign that she was hesitating and starting to be open to the possibility of working things out. I proceeded to violate all kinds of rules, talking about the future, questioning her reasons for wanting to end the divorce, re-explaining why I was against it, referring to the book... she then accused me of having sent that message to manipulate her, using techniques that I read in a book!
I really thought I had the hang of this. I should be smart enough to do everything right; it's common sense and I was not feeling emotional when she called. I'm just so upset with myself now. I am really close to the precipice. She has reiterated, at the end of the call, that her views are still the same. She does not see herself ever changing her mind.
All I had to do was follow the 37 rules!!!! GRRRRRRRR
It's not over.
IMO you need to slow waaaaaay down. You're emotional right now. Allow things to settle.
I think you really need to back off, and go dark. Don't contact her for any reason. Let her wonder where you went.
You started pursuing her, learn from your mistakes.
Oh man
I need to have Sandi's rules tattooed on every part of my body. Just had a conversation with W on the phone. At least it convinced me that I really need a coach now, but I wonder if I messed up too much.
After my somewhat unsuccessful dinner (chronicled above), I decided to start figuring out the practicalities. Genius that I am, I sent her a mail with ideas for apartments she could get and ways we could split marital assets as part of a D.
She ended up calling me just now, a bit upset about bringing up D without having talked about it first. So I apologised, and took it as a sign that she was hesitating and starting to be open to the possibility of working things out. I proceeded to violate all kinds of rules, talking about the future, questioning her reasons for wanting to end the divorce, re-explaining why I was against it, referring to the book... she then accused me of having sent that message to manipulate her, using techniques that I read in a book!
I really thought I had the hang of this. I should be smart enough to do everything right; it's common sense and I was not feeling emotional when she called. I'm just so upset with myself now. I am really close to the precipice. She has reiterated, at the end of the call, that her views are still the same. She does not see herself ever changing her mind.
All I had to do was follow the 37 rules!!!! GRRRRRRRR
Yeah Ive gotten the same response when I told my W that I didnt want to talk anymore until she was ready to work on the M. She accused me of trying to get a reaction out of her, which I admit I am guilty of doing in the past. This was not one of those times though. Probably not a great idea to even mention the D at all unless you have to talk about it. As far as the quote I highlighted above, thats nothing out of the ordinary and it doesnt mean anything. I wouldnt let that get you down. They all say that. Wish you the best of luck!
Well tonight I leave for the biggest music fest in the world! Will meet W tonight as she brings back the car, and will stay in the house over the long weekend since it's free.
Last contact was a quick discussion about arrangements. Very factual, by text only.
So priorities are:
- NOT talk about relationship
- Showcase my nice life
- Be nice - not too nice
- Get out of the house as soon as I can!
Since I last posted I got a phone coach (overdue a phone call, need to get that booked!), and I've also had a psychological assessment via my health insurance. I will have 5 sessions of holistic therapy initially. Will see how that goes. I have communicated to them that I need to work on identifying, processing and communicating my emotions better. And set better boundaries in life. I think that will help me in future relationships. As much as possible, I will save talking specifically about my marriage for my coaching sessions and this board.
Mood is getting better. But I am very pessimistic about my odds. Everyday I grieve a little for what we used to have. Every object I bought while we were together reminds me of her and the times we won't have again. Really crappy. I must make sure I think about the awesome weekend ahead when I see her, and keep my snide and negative tendencies in check! I am sure she'll try to get information on how I'm feeling and what I've been doing with myself. I'll practice what to say on the ride home tonight...
Well, now it's for real. She signed a lease and is moving out next weekend. I truly don't know how I'm going to get through this.
I am more pessimistic than ever. I am starting to even question the LRT. My call with my coach cannot come soon enough.
It's so tempting to make a plea. If the original problem was that I didn't express my feelings, and that we weren't in love, wouldn't a grand gesture mean something? I don't intend on doing it, but I can't help doubting.
She was just here, as she was staying at the apartment for the weekend while I was at a music festival since Thursday. It breaks my heart to see how happy she is. I thought that when I saw her on Thursday she looked sad, was looking away from me. But today she was a lot more upbeat. Maybe she just wasn't interested in talking to me.
I feel like I won't be able to seduce her again. Just now we hardly had anything to talk about. I feel estranged and it's killing me. Truly feel this is it.
Thanks for reading
That feeling really [censored], doesn't it?
You are going through the initial panic stage. It's crucial that you stay calm during this time.
It FEELS final right now but it's far from over. You can do this. Fasten your seatbelt and hang on.
Thank you so much Thornton. I was curious about how recent your own breakup was so I read your thread. Our situations have quite a lot of similarities. I hope things are starting to feel better for you.
I am quite humbled and inspired by how helpful you already are. I should probably start to pay forward too.
This Saturday she is coming to pick up her things. Friends of ours will be helping her.
BTW I haven't yet come across advice on what to do about common friends. I had expressed interest in keeping in touch with a couple we both know. She obviously relayed this to them; she told me they do want to keep in touch and I should do it. She obviously wants to help me through this; I have mixed feelings about that. I don't want to be pitied, I want to show how independent and strong I am! And to be honest, I don't want her to be the big, helpful person on the high road.
Anyway, do you think it's advisable to hang out with our friends, how should I avoid them so as to more fully detach? What topics should I avoid? I would obviously ask for their discretion about anything I share with them, and to not attempt to chase her on my behalf...
What do you think? Everyone welcome to contribute of course.
Thanks
There's no right or wrong answer. If you feel comfortable, feel free to hang out with them.
I would avoid R talks with them at all costs though. Just tell them you are thinking things through and leave it at that.
Talk the friends you have that don't know WAW. So there's no chance it will get back to her.
Also, when hanging out with your common friends, stay upbeat. Dont mope. If WAW hears you are hurting, she won't have any reason to come back. Make sense?
Hi Matt
well from my experience I can tell you what not to do....do not talk crap about her to anyone..i did and it got back to her and threw me back into the abyss..its hard but now I just say that I prefer not to talk about it and im moving on. (even though I still have hope ;))
I would take it a step further. What you need Mat is to detach and go LRT. This means you truly need to give her the space she needs to figure things out. Part of that equation means you need to take yourself out of the equation. Right now there is nothing you can do or say to anyone including her to make her want to be with you. So that means the only answer is to not be there. She has to miss you to want you back. She has to think you are no longer available to her for her to try and WIN you back. And this is important. If you are just 'there' for her to have for free, it means nothing to her. Everything we work for has more meaning than things we are given for free. Use this time to work on yourself, and where you made mistakes in your relationship. GAL. Do your 180s. You have to become happy with yourself, otherwise no one else will be happy with you. Once you truly detach, your life will become much easier to cope with on a daily basis, and that is the point you will see her take another look at you.
In other words, I would not keep up with your mutual friends. It is a way for her to keep tabs on you and see how you are doing. You want to be mysterious to her.
Thanks guys - it does help though you bring different perspectives.
It's tempting to find loopholes in LRT operating through friends. But the same principles apply. No debate here.
I have called the employee helpline with work health insurance to book some counselling. They're a bit stingy on the number of sessions but I'll take what I can. Time to start working on inner fears and bulk up these happiness muscles!!
Question -
How does this article, which I also saw in DR,
http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_while_spouse_decides.htm...fit with detachment and LRT? This doesn't make sense to me. Having read this early on, I made a point of telling my wife that I would be a friend to her and helpful at all times. But this doesn't ring right anymore at all.
It does not fit. It just illustrates that every relationship is unique. That relationship seemed to be saved because of the OM screwing things up and pushing the W back to the H.
Then again, he was not undergoing the LRT. Remember the LRT is the LAST resort. It is for when nothing else works and the ONLY chance you have at saving your marriage is to truly let it go. So perhaps he was not at that point.
Thanks. I need to start work on my goals and 180s instead of picking holes in the booms anyway. It does help my confidence when I feel I master the material...
Great article Mat. But how does this work when your WAW only rings when she needs you pilot... ie don't be a doormat etc. How do you differentiate?!
See I disagree. LRT is not an actual last resort. According to DR it says that if youre physically separated, then start LRT immediately. It doesnt say see if this doesnt work or something else doesnt work, then do LRT. It says to start right away. I feel like it really should be SPT, standard practice technique. Its pretty much what everyone ends up doing anyway.
Hi Mat,
I feel your pain, as my W moved into a new place of her own today.
Thanks for providing the article on being the WAW's friend. I also saw this issue on p. 161 of DR, which brought up "unconditional" friendship being what worked for "Don".
But it just seems to make more sense to stay away, don't pursue and let your W work on these issues herself. Good Luck.
Thanks all - sorry to hear about the move Wet. Hope you're feeling OK! My W is picking her stuff up next Saturday. I need to find somewhere else to be for that day. Any ideas? I'm thinking I'll want to be with people, so may end up inviting myself over at someone's place.
On reflection, maybe the article depicts the "post-LRT" resolution in this guy's story. Like pilot says, the mending would have been accelerated by the bad boyfriend (OM). So maybe she started reaching back, and for all we know he would have been disciplined about not jumping up and doing cartwheels whenever she beckoned. Maybe he was just a strong but disciplined presence at the right time. And article mentions that it was always under the guise of family or logistical stuff, that he never pressured her into a date. So he wasn't chasing. Eventually they started having a good time again... This is written from his POV after they got back together, so he emphasises the friendship bit at this point...
Just thinking out loud. Maybe I'll run it by my coach, though I want to use the session on action-oriented, forward-looking stuff.
If that's right, then the right answer is still to go dark, and respond appropriately when she contacts. Helpful and decent, but not clingy, and as scarce as practicable.
Hi Bashy - it's taken straight from the book, so I am trying to figure it out too! If you look at the discussion maybe we're getting somewhere. If I have any more insights I'll post them here.
Please do mat. We all need as much help as possible.
Wow - 4th page started. Thanks so far to everyone that replied. I don't call out every single person's name, but each message has given me something very valuable and helpful.
So I've been reading DR, and I think I've been procrastinating on taking my actual actions. More precisely, my goals, and 180s. Damn shame since I did so well initially, sitting through the seminar that I downloaded and making notes, thoughts, etc.
I think what's happening is that it's easy for me to watch and listen something, and pay attention, but looking at myself and asking the hard questions is another matter entirely. Is it fear? - that would be a popular view on a board like this. Could be that I'm a lazy POS. In school I barely read the text, and almost never did all the problems at the end of the chapter.
I guess this long preamble is just more procrastination.
So I'll start with some goals.
One huge thing that I need to change is to be able to communicate my emotions clearly, sincerely and calmly. This means, for instance:
- Expressing dissatisfaction with how I am managed at work, without feeling like I'm about to well up
- Talk to friends about what I appreciate about them. Be able to say something genuinely nice, without feeling weird and making it sound like a joke
The reason I am choosing these is because I have been cut off from my emotions my whole life, and it's been getting in the way of everything. I believe it's because of my upbringing, as my mom, and dad to a slightly lesser extent, is like that. My sister revealed to me that she went to a counsellor before her third child as she had a panic over raising them in the same environment that she was raised.
Anyway, it has been quite an impediment to my happiness - and my wife's. Not being able to express emotions means that I don't even express gratefulness to friends. I can't believe I have such good friends. And of course, there's my wife. I don't see how we could have possibly connected.
If I take it back up one level, it's about processing emotions as well. I actually dread people expressing their emotions to me. I don't know what to deal with this stuff.
Thinking about emotions even feels like a chore. I shy away from looking inward and confronting hard questions. But it's not just emotions - I'm stuck in the same job for 10 years, for instance, in spite of having disliked it from year one. I lived in 3 different countries, all the moves organised on my own, put myself through a 40-grand graduate degree. And then all of a sudden I get stuck in this job, and get married. It's like I got married after I did the exciting stuff - no wonder she got bored with me.
Well, this started out intending to be structured but quickly veered off into a stream of consciousness. Hopefully I'll get to discuss this with the counsellor and put some structure around this whole thing. But I'll go to bed for now and try again tomorrow. This time I won't put it off until 9pm, that should help.
Thanks for reading...
Weird interaction by text tonight. Not sure if I handled it right... As I mentioned W is taking her stuff on saturday, and she's moving to the apt that she just rented. I think she already got the keys and moved in though; today I got a text that said "hi. Went by flat to get sheets. Took white drying rack. Hope that's ok?"
So I thought I'd reply someone detached and cool. I was a bit rushed though. This is what this genius came up with: "Yes there's a lot of crap I'm gonna throw away so grab wha you can now :)"
I guess I figured that given the context that she's going to take her stuff on Saturday anyway, and I'm a bit of a hoarder by nature, that it would accomplish a bit of a 180, and show independence and my ability and willingness to move forward. But I'm worried that it might have come across harsh. Like take whatever junk you like I don't give a crap anymore. Maybe I'm driving myself crazy but any impressions in a couple of lines would be useful.
Today my work insurance matched me with a therapist/counsellor. I am really excited he seems great. At first I was put off that he was a man. I guess my comfort zone would have been a woman, but thinking on it I think I always had a preference for complaining to women and a craving for their comfort because I was seeking the king of mothering that I didn't get growing up. It will be good to process my stuff with a man I think. It's not a relationship, it's a professional therapeutic setting, but it is sort of consistent with the teachings in No More Mr Nice Guy.
Another goal / 180 identified today: stop feeling like I have to argue every point. That did drive her nuts, but it's also and mostly tedious for me and everyone else. What validation am I seeking and expecting from others by looking for every damn counterpoint? I was quite hard on my mom with that, and the eat of my family for that matter. I will identify the trigger before I need to say "yes but" and replace it with validation, and see what happens. Just as an experiment...
I do need to come up with more. I want to have a full list to discuss with coach on Friday night.
Question - how do you handle W' family members if they reach out? I don't want to cling through them, neither do I want to be insensitive. We also have her friends that she brought into the relationship. She says she has started to disclose, slowly.
On the one hand, she said that she felt pressure from her friends and family to marry me. So, although I don't think they would pressure her into fixing the marriage, I am not sure I want them as strong advocates.
But I don't want them as detractors and validators of her decision to go either!
For context, she has a LOT of siblings. They needed a small bus to get around as a family, and that wasn't enough for all of them at one time.
Any experiences / best practices to share on how to interact with WAW's family and friends if they reach out?
Question - how do you handle W' family members if they reach out?
Any experiences/best practices to share on how to interact with WAW's family and friends if they reach out?
A good question but a tough one. Some of the advice I received for my situation:
-Do respond with gratitude (follow the 'become the person only a fool would leave' philosophy). The fact they are reaching out to you indicates that they care (assume the best of intentions).
-In your interactions with them always be respectful and kind.
-Don't use them to influence the situation and outcome.
-Don't probe them for dirt/info. on W.
-Don't bad mouth your W, especially to her family.
-Don't lie or cover things up to 'protect' your W.
-If they do probe about the R, be honest about your position and what you want for the R but don't whine about it (I find using the validation lines: "I can see how she feels this way..." helpful for my situation)
-It is okay to feel nervous about these interactions.
Wow db - for a tough question you sure have a great answer! I'll certainly take that. I mean it's all common sense really. But it's all in the execution isn't it.
In spite of the best advice, there's a chance I won't be able to avoid interacting with common friends. I think that in applying your advice, my attitude will need to convey "I'll be OK". If it's in a social event setting I'll have to enjoy myself no matter what.
The two things I absolutely need to resist doing is probe for info, and make a snide remark about her on the "christian" guy that she was hanging out with before I caught her.
Advice on not covering up anything is interesting. I wouldn't want to volunteer anything negative about her, but yes I suppose that adding lies on top of the situation is much worse.
Really good stuff. Thanks so much!
Question -
How does this article, which I also saw in DR,
http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_while_spouse_decides.htm...fit with detachment and LRT? This doesn't make sense to me. Having read this early on, I made a point of telling my wife that I would be a friend to her and helpful at all times. But this doesn't ring right anymore at all.
Mat, 'Detaching' confused the heck out of me. I will defer to the veterans' wisdom but here is my take on this today (and one which I am still struggling to put into practice):
Detaching does not mean you stop loving your W. It means letting go of your expectations of her and her actions. You stop letting her behavior/words to dictate how you feel and how you react. But not how you feel about her.
No expectations of the outcome, just letting go.
But not giving up.
Detaching for me also extends to my 'feelings' and something you allude to here in your thread. I am learning, in a very difficult way, about the difference between detaching from my feelings and disconnecting from them (for me running away).
Feelings can be deceptive. We see many success stories here where WAS felt like they never loved LBS and could not see that changing ever. And then those feelings changed.
There are many times I feel like giving up on this DB path after taking a nice long swim in my self pity pool party. But after a good night's rest, very glad that I didn't react.
Detaching will help you focus on your own growth (which includes GAL) while sticking on the DB journey. Helping you to ride out the inevitable wave of feelings: both hers AND yours.
Thanks Mat. I wish I could take credit for the advice but it is all from this board and from the many wise people here.
Nathan
Well, so happy 4th to all the wonderful American members of this board. Hope you managed to organise yourself a good celebration with people that care about you.
So, feeling odd today. Was feeling really down earlier this morning as my wife is coming to sort through her stuff and remove/throw away hers. I won't be there for that, and I have no friends to go hang out with until late afternoon. Still, I'm bracing for quite a shock.
But then, as I was looking for some place to be, I booked myself tickets for an exhibit at the British library and kind of became giddy with excitement about my new found freedom, and daydreaming of a better future. Unfortunately some of these dreams feature reconciliation. I'm concerned about swings like that.
I think it was driven by an easy morning at work, finding an activity to do by myself that I know I will enjoy, knowledge that I will see friends on Saturday AND Sunday...
BTW, hope you don't 2x4 me, but one of them is the partner of a wife's former colleague. So common friends. I've thought about it, and I cannot just afford to lose even one good buddy (and he's top tier) just in case this results in me being "attached" by proxy, and still achieve GAL. Something has to give.
I have been visualising in my own mind what I will say about the relationship, have got the 37 rules as well as db's take for friends and families down pat. I will be sure to make it absolutely clear that it'll be OK no matter what, no matter whom with.
And I'll do one of my 180s; I am going to ask questions, listen, not interrupt, and not argue. It's time I start appreciating others better and learning from them.
Still giddy. Ah well.
Bashy,
So I talked to my coach. She brought a bit of nuance to the whole LHR thing, and going dark. I wish I had taken more notes, but here is the gyst - hopefully I'm conveying the right meaning.
Going totally dark for a very extended period is not always the solution. It is especially good for when a person is basically going off the deep-end, acting badly. Of course it's not meant to be forever.
Now, in my case, because a longstanding complaint was lack of connection and lack of attentiveness on my part, I should probably initiate contact in a few weeks if she has not. But, and see db's post on this on my thread, it still means no expectations, no pleading, no discussing the relationship. And you better have some 180s to showcase.
Now this is dangerous advice if taken at face value and without the whole context. This would be a very bad strategy 2 weeks after separation for instance, or if you're still arguing every time you talk. You have to be on good terms, and you have to make sure that you have give the WAS the space that she needs, if that's the case. As helpful as this board is (and I really mean that it is), as it raises good points to think about and consider, to me it's quite good to spend an hour discussing in depth too. Without the different perspectives that I read about from fellow DBers, I wouldn't have thought to articulate the right question to my coach that applies to ME.
As pilot was saying, you need to consider the particulars of your relationship. But it's hard to do alone. Ben made a good point that LRT is standard when a spouse leaves; but going through the pages again it says not to pursue. It does totally forbid a contact after a few weeks as long as it's not pursuing. Just an offer to catch up...
So be wary of taking what I said at face value; it's only because I wanted to conclude our discussion.
Hi all - I think I need to detach more. But it's so hard today, she's coming to clear out her stuff.
I had some emerging money concerns; yesterday I texted making it clear that I wouldn't use the joint credit card that's under her name, and asked that she didn't use the ones in my first name. She didn't respond to that.
Today we had a short exchange about logistics. I texted her this just now:
"FYI I'll be at the caff for a bit then out on the town. If you need anything stored please ask. You own the house too. I hope today goes well."
I don't think there was any need for that. At best, neutral...
So, she picked up all of her stuff today. Think of all the work the house needs, pressure building up at work, the thought that I have to stop hoping and that I may have to build a new life.... I am completely overwhelmed.
This is my worst day so far. In a way I am so sick of being brave and ´taking it welĺ. Accepting that all problems are solvable, that it's criminal to leave without giving me an ultimatum. I'd fly us to Colorado and have an intensive session with MWD! To be so convinced that you never loved someone that you won't ask if you can read some chapters of the book, or go see someone.
To be fair I didn't get the best sleep. But I don't know how to calm down and take a nap I am freaking out.
Hi, Mat.
This is really hard and it will pass. It's hard to get used to your new normal.
For today, the best thing you can do is to sit with your pain and feel it so it can pass. Do things that calm you, whether it's going for a walk or drinking coffee or hitting the batting cages or working on a project. Anything healthy that will get you into a flow state.
I know what you mean about "taking it well." Sometimes you just want your breakdown. So if you can, take your breakdown today. It will make tomorrow easier.
Then start making plans for living for yourself. That doesn't mean giving up or taking dramatic action. It just means giving you a direction to aim for in your new reality so you don't stay stuck in the old dead one. If your reality changes again you can adapt at that time.
Best to you on this rough day.
Thank you. Unfortunately, or fortunately, made plans with a friend and he's on his way. But I think I will re-read your post quite a few times! I think I'll put on a brave face and it may make me feel better.
Thanks so much it is making me feel better that there is a way out. Sometimes you need it explained well by a kind person like yourself.
Thank you
Hi Mat,
I know the pain you are in. It will drive you crazy if you think about why your W did this to you. My advice is stop asking "why".
If you are a spiritual person, you may ask "God, what do you want me to learn from this?" And "God what do you want me to do today". Because you will never figure out why you are where you are today, and instead only try and grow from this. Good luck and know you are stronger than you ever imagined.
Hi Wet thanks for the support.
My day out was OK in the end. The problem here is that socialising, at least in my circle, traditionally happens around a pint. I need to cut this out entirely.
But other than that, met the male half of a couple that's friends with us. He was very supportive, and although feelings are still raw, I think I succeeded in putting on the brave face I was intending to. Though I had to look away not to choke up, so I don't think I fooled him that this has upset me but who would be surprised at that? I did admit that it would be a long hard road, and that dealing with fixing the house before selling it, the relationship, and work pressures would be hard. And I said I was preparing myself for whatever outcome may prevail in the end. But I did mention my intent to take out martial arts classes, and I already like to go to concerts (often on my own even when I was married, for weekday gigs), and he said he'd like to come along. He did commend me on taking things on board and doing work on myself, and taking the lessons. And assured me that they still wanted to be friends with both of us, even if it is separately.
So I'm pretty reassured that they won't be acting as go-between and help W keep tabs on me. At the same time, I will have to be disciplined about not mind-reading through them. For instance, he asked about how long the repairs would take, whether I'd want to live there or sell up. Made me think that he's also getting a clear message from W that things are final in her mind. I no longer think it's the only deduction to make, but in any case there's no reason to believe that she would be telling me one thing and telling other people another. So why worry about that.
I am also getting some advice over email from a really good friend who's now living in another country and who went through a full divorce. He emphasises not getting taken advantage of financially quite a bit. I am not sure how much I should worry about that. Given we don't have joint accounts and I was doing the investing, I feel pretty bulletproof. If we end up getting a lot of equity out of the house then perhaps I'll need to think about this... I am not at the point where I want to worry about these things though.
Thanks all for the support I think today will be a somewhat better day.
Hi, Mat.
I've found that almost everyone who hears H and I are separated assume a divorce is pending too. Even H isn't to the point where he KNOWS he wants one -- he basically said he didn't know that he didn't. People even ask me if I'll be staying in the area! So I think the tendency is to assume that separation = divorce and you shouldn't read any more into your friend's questions than human curiosity and his own musings about the implications of a relationship ending.
You should also not assume that spouses share all the gritty details with each other. They may not, for many reasons. But it was really kind of him to reassure you that you wouldn't "lose" him in the split.
I hope today is a better day and that you have something planned that will give you good feelings about yourself. Hang in there. There will still be low points along the way, but for the moment you're likely on a flat, smooth patch of road and will have some space to regain your balance if you take it.
Best to you.
Hi all!
Beautiful day here, so I'm at the pub with my friend DB book. Bears re-reading.
So this morning, coming back from my personal training session (back off a bit ladies this stud is still spoken for), I get a txt saying that W was going to be in the neighbourhood and that she was going to leave the car at our place while she did whatever she's got to do (I truly can't imagine what that is). I replied this by text "grab your contacts and a cheque com your school while you're there". She has a set of keys. That's it.
Not too sure if that was too harsh. In any case, not the best 180 I should let her realise that there may be mail for her (contact lenses get deliered by mail here). I don't have to manage the stuff for her. BUT, I did not initiate and I certainly detached. I immediately showered and made myself scarce. Went to the caff for lunch, on to the coffee shop, then on to the pub. Problem is I'll have to return at some point soon. I don't want to be drinking too much, and don't want to be wasting money either. And I hate reding in parks there's never anywhere comfortable. Anyway for now I am nursing a cask ale until it lives up the English beer stereotype of being warm as piddle.
So... How do you think I am doing gang? I came to write on here when I became tempted to go home and be there when she comes back. I may yet go back, as I have things to do. Tons of stuff to put up on eBay that I'd like to send out tomorrow.
Tonight I joined a meet up group, may go along to a club night. I am also deciding between two types of martial arts to start learning on Monday: kick boxing or ju jitsu. Mmmm kicking and punching, or cleverly using an opponent strength against them?? Any martial artists on the board give me a shout...
As you can tell today is a "high" day. Did not start that way though. I know moods to up and down; the trick I am slowly learning is to use the highs to read DB and do productive things. I know I'll only feel like whining when I'm down.. I am starting to help out on other boards too... It's real good to feel like you're giving a tiny bit back.
Give me a shout guys it's always good to get your feedback.
Well, came back home, and saw that she picked up her contacts and check. No further communications. I guess I was out for long enough.
Your plan was a good one. Being gone was the good move. She told you she was coming, and had you been there, it could have looked like pursuing. Instead she saw you GAL. Your text was fine. Short and to the point. No point in dressing it up with flowers and perfume.
Keep up the good work.
Hi Mat, it was a beautiful day today. I'm glad it was a high day for you. My PMA is faltering slightly but I took the kids to HMS Belfast and that was great. No pub though, but I'll be re-reading bits of DR later.
I've also been looking to do something again but my local clubs (Hastings area) all meet at the wrong time.
I did Kempo Ju Jitsu for a few years in London under Peter Browne until I moved away: I can recommend his lessons. He's in S, SE & E London.
Thanks both! I think it's fair to say that as bad as things are, we're all doing better than Brazil right now. This is going to be another shellacking for them it looks like.
Glad you had a good day odsnt. Your kids are lucky to have a dad to take them to cool places like that. I still remember back in Canada when my dad bribed a cadet (or something similar) to take us on a tour of a military ship that was moored there. It wasn't open to the public! I need to mention this next time I call him.
Man detaching is hard though. I was supposed to go to a club night, but I partly chickened out, and partly figured that I should be out until 2AM with people I don't know yet. There's another meetup in Camden to watch the final on the screen, while bands are playing at a pub. I'll go to that one instead, a bit quieter...
Anyway ignore my ramblings. I'll start journaling more assiduously. Saw a counsellor, no big insights yet, but he may be sceptical of the marriage. I'll go and read up the thread on that.
Have a nice Sunday all
Mat, I just went back and read through your thread. I can relate to a lot of what you said, your fears, background and your questions. You are not alone.
One of my questions is also, if I wasn't the greatest at being in touch with my feelings and expressing my love and appreciation before, how can I do it now if it's unwanted and chasing?
I know man. I work with a DB coach, and she's saying that I will want to make some contact in a few weeks and showcase my 180s. But I don't think this will mean expressing too much feeling since that will bring the convo back to the R. I will try to speak to coach again this week and report back. I really need more clarity. I will do my homework, write down goals and 180s, and then start talking about a strategy to showcase.
That's why I am still uneasy about today. If I had happened to be home, maybe we could have had a conversation where I am attentive, and still could have kept it light and ended it early.
I don't think there's too much harm in keeping away for now, but I'll need to clarify what needs to happen in my own case.
Could def use vet input, but will reach out to coach as well.
Thought some more...
I think that there's a danger that we understand what we want to understand when it comes to going dark/not going dark. I need to be wary of looking for "loopholes" in the going dark rule. I think it's important to go back to what it's intended for, and apply it ruthlessly to our own cases. It's so easy to find excuses to reach out, especially when it's for reasons we can justify as "not chasing" (e.g. some mail came in for her), just because it feels good to hear from them and that they are alive.
In my case, not one of her friends has reached out (except for one couple that consider themselves our friends in equal measure), nor her family. Because she doesn't talk to her family often, I don't know if she even told them. So I'm not hearing anything from anyone. Attrition is quite hard. That makes it tempting to come up with spurious reasons to reach out.
So whenever I consider making contact, I have to step back and think of what emotions I have that may make me make the wrong decision.
Today for instance, I went to the cafe for breakfast near our house where I started going regularly when we were still together. I was always joking with my wife that I was wondering when I would be considered a regular there by the owners, and greeted as such. I just liked the idea of being a regular geezer at a greasy spoon. So I used to be funny about it, telling W about signs that I may or may not have attained regular status yet, and we joked about it. And this morning, lo and behold, the owner asked me "your usual staple diet then"? I was shocked!! I really thought about texting her something like "sorry but I had to tell someone: I know I should be more sad than proud, but I'm officially a REGULAR and I don't need to tell them what I want for breakfast anymore!! Best day of my life!" BTW my regular staple is double-egg, bacon, chips and beans. Good thing I only go at weekends. Please no one tell me my 180 should be to switch to natural yogurt and a banana! I eat that during the week already thank you very much.
Well, I didn't text her in the end. First, it's only been a month since she left. She's been in her own apartment for a week and a half now. And it's not THAT funny. There'll be other chances. Even as I write this, I wonder if I'm missing an opportunity to reconnect and it's making me nervous. But I have to trust that my coach, for instance, who expressed ambivalence on the "going dark" method in my case, advised against contacting before a few weeks. We're not there yet.
The point is, if you go back to the DB text, going dark simply means not chasing, not initiating contact. So you don't do that. You don't send the texts unless necessary, you don't call, and you don't accept all invites. Sandi's rules apply. You have to wait until you get an overture, or at least quite a long time. I'll have to go re-read Thornton's thread to refresh my memory and get a sense of the chronology and events when the R started to turn, which may be helpful. Or he may drop by if he can get a break from all the dates and mooching
.
odsnt: Where does this leave us, who had trouble showing love and appreciation? And if I confess, in my own case, feeling appreciation at times? I think for me, the first thing is to go back to the books and do the work now, so that I know I can act optimally if and when the chance comes. Can you clearly state the 3 things you love most about your wife, for instance? For a while I couldn't but now I can; I will write it down and you can be sure I'll be ready to tell her as and when it is appropriate. What are our goals? What are our 180s? I don't know how far along you are down that journey, but I am not waiting until I get a signal anymore. I want to do everything I can now to make sure I'm not caught off guard. Next call with my coach, we will spend the hour discussing realistic signals that I may receive that would indicate that things are about to change, and we'll play out the scenarios and what I should do under each.
I'll tell you one area that I struggle with a bit: GAL. Problem is, we were growing apart. While she was here preparing lessons on her computer until 10 at night, and working weekends (dearth of resources provided to teachers in this country are an absolute utter disgrace), I was doing the following:
- My job
- Sitting on the Board of Trustees of a charity
- Personal training Sat mornings, gym on Sunday
- Going to gigs as we live nearish the "hotspot" for good indie club gigs in our city, most often on my own because she doesn't like live music that much
- Occasionally going out with friends
I don't have bandwidth for much else!! I can put more life energy into what I commit to, as I tend to half-ass things (the board duties and the job - though I can't be that bad at the job since they are downsizing I didn't get laid off yet). She did mention I needed to hang out with my own friends more, I've certainly reconnected with a few. I can make new friends, but browsing for groups on meetup.com leave me ambivalent. The ones that seem fun are music and bar-based, and I'm not sure that's good for me. I need to curb drinking, and hanging out in bars is getting old. I don't mind old-man pubs with friends... I don't know I would like to meet new people. I haven't hung out with anyone this weekend, as I don't want to overload the friends I already have.
Am definitely going to join a martial arts club. I'd prefer ju jitsu, but it's a 7pm start and a half hour from my house. Could be hard to pull off...
All right. I have some goals to write down so I'll close this post in case anyone wants to respond.
All right. First order of business. What do I love about my wife that makes me want to keep fighting for us?
There are things in her that I admire, perhaps it's because I lack them myself. At the same time, did that make me resent her at times?
1) Unlike me, she does not bend over backwards to please people, and does not walk on eggshells. She can be direct and does not shy away from confrontation. Fear of confrontations is a problem for me; in my relationship, it made me resent her at times and act passive-aggressively. At work, I am 100% sure that it's held me back. I'm confident it's costing me at least £50k a year in terms compensation I could otherwise be getting if I had fulfilled my potential.
But in any case, I love her and admire her for it now. It's inspiring, and I should have used the opportunity of our marriage to learn from her.
She has reproached me the fact that I walked on eggshells around her. I can see how she would have wished she saw a bit more fight in me. Instead of arguing trivial points, to stand firm. Once I displayed that behaviour and she actually verbalised how much she liiiiked it...
2) She is playful, cute and funny. Now that I am on my own, I won't lie, I've been observing other women around me more closely. I think I took for granted how W could be so silly, but in a cool and smart way.
3) Beautiful. I miss that face. I wish I could see her only once more sleeping with her fists closed when I come to kiss her before I leave for work.
4) Charisma. People like her; there is a glow around her. I don't know if it's because that detachment makes her seem unattainable.
Even though she says she was never in love with me, I am convinced that I am the one that didn't properly reflect her feelings. She has a lot of pain from her background, and I think that I lacked the commitment and courage to give her what she needed. It started to annoy me.
I'd give anything to turn the clock and get another chance...
Obviously this isn't quite what I'd want to tell her. I only know that I love her for real, and I want to build something brand new with her. We both deserve this.
Was never a religious person, but I think prayer would help at this point...
Mat... I just wanted to drop in & say hi so you know I was here. I'm going to process your post a bit but sometimes it's just nice to know you're not only writing into the ether.
Btw, I'd love to be a regular somewhere. Good for your achieving a goal! Lol.
Btw, I'd love to be a regular somewhere. Good for your achieving a goal! Lol.
...if only it was a trendy organic place I could brag about it too!!!
Right. A few 180s, then I'm going offline to do some stuff. I've ebayed some items, and need to find a spot to get rid of some more junk. As I've mentioned before, I have a lot on my plate. W left me to resolve a freeholder dispute (if you're in the US, "freehold" is an archaic land ownership concept that other civilised former colonies have got rid of for obvious reasons. Imagine a condo board with one voting member, who does not live in the complex, who's only there to profit from the appreciation of the properties and take a cut on the maintenance fees on the sly), and only then can I renovate the apartment. It will be hell. In a weird way I'm excited because it will keep me busy. So I'm trying to clear some stuff now so I don't have to put useless stuff in storage.
Anyway. DB says this about 180s:
1. Describe what you see as the problem
2. Assess how you've been handling the problem thus far
3. Do a 180
4. Assess effect on spouse.
At this point I can only do 1-3, until I can assess the effect on spouse, obviously.
So here goes.
i) A no-brainer; it's even one of Sandi's rules. STFU, listen and validate.
1. The problem is that I did not listen to her enough, and sometimes would respond something inappropriate. Like she would be telling me something that has upset her at work, and I'd ask "so what was the color of her shoes"? Obviously exaggerated so you get my point. Also, I did not appear interested and would drift off during her stories.
2. I have been handling it by denying what I was doing, and being defensive. No prizes for guessing that's made things worse.
3. My 180 will be to carve time to actually listen to her, not jump in with solutions she doesn't want, and admit when I'm not in the mood to listen (and propose an alternative). I've started to do that near the end of the relationship, but didn't follow through with my proposed end of the bargain.
ii) Arguing small points, being a smartass
1. I have been doing that way too much in all areas of my life. It's driven her insane, and made her feel like I didn't think she was smart or had a point.
2. I have been defensive and in denial about it. I also defended this, like arguing is a part of how smart people communicate. When in fact, it only detracts from the real point of the conversation (when you pick apart side details) and make people not want to listen to you at all. It does not help a marriage.
3. When I get the urge to challenge, I'll ask a clarifying question and assume that there is something to learn. How come I can pick up a book and give it the benefit of the doubt, but not my own wife? If I was a genius, I could assume I have nothing to learn from other people, but I am not, and I need to start listening so I can become smarter as opposed to trying to prove to the world that I already am smart.
iii) Not making her feel attractive
1. She does not think I find her attractive, from the way I look at her, and comments that are not meant to be hurtful but that do not make her feel like I desire her.
2. Again, DENIAL. It's true that as her weight has fluctuated, I have been less attracted, but part of it is also the feedback loop of her not feeling attractive. I don't care about a few pounds, but her confidence, the way she dresses, changes also. And this is not down to her. She married a man to be exclusive to; I have to make her feel sexy as well. It's something that two people need to work on. It's one of those "Circular Connections" that's discussed on page 69 in DB (at least my copy, from 1992). But it takes only one to tango, so there's something that I need to do first.
3. When I saw her before I went to the music festival a couple of weeks ago, I did remark on her new jeans that fit her well. I think that was probably too soon and chasing. I will need to let my eyes do the talking. Next time I see her, because I haven't seen her for a while, I know she will look as beautiful as ever. I can keep my mouth shut, but I have to make sure that my eyes do the talking.
iv) "Walking on eggshells" - telling her what she wants to hear.
1. That's a funny one: on the one hand I argue with her and piss her off, on the other, I tell her what she wants to hear to not piss her off. Funny pattern. This is why it's a hard one to put into practice.
2. Again, defensive. Also, protested that I didn't want to be argumentative. Dug my heels and told her that whatever I was saying was what I really felt. And in some cases that was true. But why would she trust that?
3. Be authentic. Reconciliation may fail because of that. I will have to admit to things that she won't like. And she will have to trust that there is still a basis to rebuild a new relationship. That one is a bit abstract. I don't know how it will be in practice.
V) Talking about my feelings
1. This is another twist on being authentic. She has noticed that I bottle up everything inside, to the point of making myself sick. Especially stress. In fact, when she started her EA (or right before, but it was the inception of the infatuation), and I talked about how her spending time with him bothered me, she gave me a hug because it was the first time I had a sincere talk about my feelings. Then she went to see him anyway, mind you.
2. I haven't done much on this one. I did raise my hand and admit it. It's hard for me to unbottle without breaking down or crying, and I am scared this will happen.
3. Accept that I will be vulnerable in front of my wife, and embrace that. In my final plea, the day after the affair was discovered, I really did cry but really, did not convince her of how I felt. She thinks I don't really love her, and I am still not realising that I am better off without her. I am also in counselling, and my stated goal is to process and express my feelings. I need to act in tune with myself and what's inside.
This will be hard to do in practice. I probably need one of a few more passes to make these a lot more concrete and practical. Pervasive thing is authenticity, and not acting defensive. I need to evidence sincerity and not be afraid to truly speak up for myself.
Bit exhausted. I'll try to post more regularly from now on! Coaching session to be schedule, and counselling on Tuesday. Bring it on!
Just checking in Mat. I'll replay tonight when I've some time. You can't beat a greasy spoon though :-)
In my own case, my parents didn’t seem to display much outward affection. They did love each other: there weren’t any huge rows or anything like that, it was just the British reserve. We don’t do that sort of thing, we’re British: passion is for those hot headed latino types. So that means I grew up thinking that was normal. Any excessive display of affection felt awkward. This isn’t an excuse, it’s just the way it was.
I’m going back over D with a pencil and a notepad. Mine is a second-hand copy where someone has already marked out passages: I hope it worked for them. I am writing so much stuff down these days, I’ve got loads of pieces of paper with SWOTs and goals and hang-ups etc on them. It would be nice if I could get them into some sort of shape so I can be prepared because my W can do this in her head. I love the way you've approached this and got on with it. Procrastination be gone.
I do need to re-examine short term goals and 180s though. I have some of both and have already been doing both, but it’s a bit haphazard. I’ll see if I can sort them out by Wednesday when I’ve got my next appointment with my counsellor and I’ll post them on my thread.
I have been getting a little bit more of a life recently - I couldn’t really have done much less before. Your schedule looks quite active looking at it though Mat. If you’re enjoying doing those things, then that’s fine, it is part of your life: if not, then change up. Don’t assume your ‘half-ass things’ are unappreciated though. It may be the case if you didn’t do it, no-one would. I wish I could go to more gigs, I used to go to lots, but there ain’t much where I am.
I’m making an effort to meet up with friends again, it’s so easy to let it slide: Facebook is a real plus for this. I had a quick look at meetup.com as well: I was primarily looking for tech groups in my area, but also maybe mindfulness group. Like dating sites, I think it’s frowned upon to maybe use them, but I’ve over that mentality now: they’re useful tools.
I’ll have to my goals etc on my thread. Pop over in a while to see if I’ve managed it.
Just read your top 4 reasons why your fighting for your W. We could be talking about my W here. They’re definitely worth fighting for.
Thanks for sharing this I'll support you as well.
Changing things up might work - and to be fair, I have a lot of TV watching time that I can be reinvesting somewhere. Tonight I went to a kickboxing class in my neighbourhood. It's pretty good, and close by so I'll stick with that. Another change I can make is to get more hands on with the volunteering - my W is used to be hearing me complain about them and their lack of professionalism when it comes to financial management. I'll go in with renewed energy and a more positive attitude. Also glad to hear that in spite of pandemonium in the financial industry, I seem to have done well in my job this past half-year according to the review I had with my boss today. Improvement points are all very attainable. So I'll be thankful this is going pretty well for now.
Going to run my goals by my coach. I also need to think of the circular patterns; things I do that make her do X to which I react and make the whole cycle worse. These sessions aren't that cheap, though the £ is doing nicely right now!
Will let you know how I do, let me know when you've posted your goals.
Good for you Mat. I'm busy writing down what my W means to me and some 180s offline at the moment, though I do have some Tour de France to catch up on: I have to do that as it is one of my passions.
Heh Mat. I know the feeling my friend. Too much TV time for myself which I could be reinvesting elsewhere. My poor money management skills don't help leaving me at the end of the month stuck at home but I suppose you can do a lot of things (like volunteering) which don't cost anything.
Oh, and great news about doing well at work... keep it going bud!
Sounds like you have a good plan Mat and great to hear you have a DB coach to guide you.
TV watching has also been my bane and an easy distraction.
Well,
All the DB stuff is starting to be more and more theoretical. My W seems to be perfectly content not to have any contact back. It's been a week, not a peep.
Getting harder to think about 180s. Truth is, I was happy with my own life before, I get out and about, I'm involved in the community. My 180s were all about how I interact with people. I'll keep trying, but I'm running out of people to practice on.
DB Coach advised me to perhaps reach out, perhaps write a letter apologising for how I fell short, or perhaps not, or reach out, or not...
If DB is a long cross-country drive, then I guess I'm crossing the great plains now. Not much to report, and not sure how to not go crazy with boredom.
Going to kickboxing later today. Whoo-hoo. Getting a life is nothing new though I've signed up for so much crap over the years.
I really don't know what I'm supposed to do that I'm not doing?
Mines not reached out in months. Actually if I'm honest except to blow sand in my face, he does not contact. Period. He is stubborn and has yet to admitt responsibility for anything he's ever done.
It's for you to be the better person regardless.
Hi Sandi - thanks for checking in. Came by to read something inspirational before last stretch at work (it's mid-afternoon where I live). I will log back on tonight to try to think about where I'm at and what my next actions are going to be. I've been shooting in all directions with IC, Coaches, this board, the book. I need to find a direction. That's why I appealed to some vets in desperation yesterday!
Talk later - thanks
Hi Mat, I've caught up on your thread.
All right. First order of business. What do I love about my wife that makes me want to keep fighting for us?
I'm glad you did this, it's a question I often ask. Sometimes we've grown so far apart in a M/R that we lose sight of why we married our spouse.
Some people want to stay married because of pride, they don't like to be walked away from, what will people think, etc
Some are afraid to be alone.
Some want to stay together because of the children.
Some want to stay together because that was their plan, and we don't like our plans to be messed with.
There are things in her that I admire, perhaps it's because I lack them myself. At the same time, did that make me resent her at times?
1) Unlike me, she does not bend over backwards to please people, and does not walk on eggshells. She can be direct and does not shy away from confrontation. Fear of confrontations is a problem for me; in my relationship, it made me resent her at times and act passive-aggressively. At work, I am 100% sure that it's held me back. I'm confident it's costing me at least £50k a year in terms compensation I could otherwise be getting if I had fulfilled my potential.
Great insight. What are you doing to change that?
I would guess, human nature being what it is that you're like this in all your Rs, so you don't need your W around to work on this.
But in any case, I love her and admire her for it now. It's inspiring, and I should have used the opportunity of our marriage to learn from her.
Do you love her for it, really? I ask because that's a long way to come in a short period of time.
She has reproached me the fact that I walked on eggshells around her. I can see how she would have wished she saw a bit more fight in me. Instead of arguing trivial points, to stand firm. Once I displayed that behaviour and she actually verbalised how much she liiiiked it...
It's not unusual for spouse of depressed partners walk on eggshells. Is that why you did it or are there other reasons?
2) She is playful, cute and funny. Now that I am on my own, I won't lie, I've been observing other women around me more closely. I think I took for granted how W could be so silly, but in a cool and smart way.
3) Beautiful. I miss that face. I wish I could see her only once more sleeping with her fists closed when I come to kiss her before I leave for work.
4) Charisma. People like her; there is a glow around her. I don't know if it's because that detachment makes her seem unattainable.
She sounds like a lovely person but why do you love her? You don't have to answer that here, just think about it. Journal about it on your own. Did you tackle tough problems together, was she able to help you become a better you, are you aware of her inner strength?
Even though she says she was never in love with me, I am convinced that I am the one that didn't properly reflect her feelings. She has a lot of pain from her background, and I think that I lacked the commitment and courage to give her what she needed. It started to annoy me.
Living with a depressed spouse can be annoying, infuriating at times. I was the depressed spouse in my marriage, I know I was infuriating at times.
Her depression may wax and wane. What's different about you now that will make you better able to deal with it?
I'd give anything to turn the clock and get another chance...
Obviously this isn't quite what I'd want to tell her. I only know that I love her for real, and I want to build something brand new with her. We both deserve this.
Was never a religious person, but I think prayer would help at this point...
As Cadet tells everyone in the very beginning, you've been given the gift of time.
And we all read that and promptly forget it. Write in on post-its and put it around the house. Or change all your passwords to be a variation of that so you see it several times every day.
You have self-identified several things you need to work on. Get busy, so when you do have interactions with W, she can't help but see the new you.
Drop any timelines, your changing will be a life-long process.
One thing I see is that you want to be the fixer, you fixed her into a new apartment, you told her what mail to pick-up, you want to write out instructions for her to know how to get repairs done.
Stop.
See her as an adult with her own life to live. If she's all the things you think she is, she can figure it out.
That doesn't mean you act like a jerk if she does ask a question but you don't have to fix her problem right then and there. Be open, talk to her about it, see what she really needs.
I think right now, until you get your feet under you, NC is right where you need to be.
Best of luck.
Hi there,
This is so helpful, thanks a million. I think I am starting to get enough perspective to complement the coaching and counselling, so I can get even more perspective and be more centered. Advice I've been getting elsewhere start to make more sense now that you've tailored it to what I wrote. I think I'm a better reader than listener.
Let me replay some of what you say and see if I can jump off it to more insight. I think it's also a good time to re-read my old stuff as you've done.
Hi Mat, I've caught up on your thread.
Some people want to stay married because of pride, they don't like to be walked away from, what will people think, etc
Some are afraid to be alone.
Some want to stay together because of the children.
Some want to stay together because that was their plan, and we don't like our plans to be messed with.
I have to think long and hard here. Do I want her back just to prove a point, that although she kept saying I don't really love her, I really do? I mean I feel love and hurt in my heart, but is it because she left? I owe it to myself and her to be exactly clear on the new basis for a relationship. To be clear, I still believe what I wrote... But I also feel quite distressed that my
Plan is being disturbed!
Do you love her for it, really? I ask because that's a long way to come in a short period of time.
Another one to ponder. I think that more precisely, I miss these things in her. But we miss everything about people we love - so that means I still have to answer the question, why do I love her?
It's not unusual for spouse of depressed partners walk on eggshells. Is that why you did it or are there other reasons?
Mainly not to set her off, and see her suffer. And hear her say things about our relationship that I didn't know how to respond to. And also, to not have the aggravation if I am brutally honest. I thought I was entitled to have a fun Saturday afternoon for instance, and I preferred to keep a lid on things rather than ruin it.
She sounds like a lovely person but why do you love her? You don't have to answer that here, just think about it. Journal about it on your own. Did you tackle tough problems together, was she able to help you become a better you, are you aware of her inner strength?
I do need to think about it. These are things that I love about her. Interesting about helping me become a "better you". I mentioned that in my wedding speech. With time, and the routine, I think that I let my argumentative nature push that aside and didn't accept her help in a way. As for her inner strength, when I think about what she went through I am in awe. That is something that I should have validated a lot more in her. If I have the chance to show that 180, that will be worthwhile in itself no matter what happens to R. And I think that in my life, that would be good as well. I never express admiration for other people. But I do look up to plenty of people for different reasons.
Her depression may wax and wane. What's different about you now that will make you better able to deal with it?
She herself tried to teach me how to deal with it. She would say, often times, that it had nothing to do with me. If I had been smarter, I would have listened to that, and focused on making her loved, validated, listened to, treasured and admired during the smooth moments. She could have taken comforts from that in tough times, maybe. It's not very much but I guess it's the best I have. If we were to get closer together, that would be a major point for discussion before we could embark on a new relationship.
You have self-identified several things you need to work on. Get busy, so when you do have interactions with W, she can't help but see the new you.
Drop any timelines, your changing will be a life-long process.
Yes - I need to go back and summarise in a neat pithy list. I do need to get busy with that and record my progress. It's something to do.
One thing I see is that you want to be the fixer, you fixed her into a new apartment, you told her what mail to pick-up, you want to write out instructions for her to know how to get repairs done.
Stop.
See her as an adult with her own life to live. If she's all the things you think she is, she can figure it out.
That doesn't mean you act like a jerk if she does ask a question but you don't have to fix her problem right then and there. Be open, talk to her about it, see what she really needs.
I am getting better through no merit of my own. She has stepped up to the challenge quite nicely, which is why I don't hear so much from her. I got her her hotel, but she rented her apt, and organised her move herself. I did offer help though, and she didn't take it up - so it's really her that kept me at arm's length. So I won't get the credit for staying out of the way obviously! I think the way around that, if I run into her, is just to validate her if she mentions all the things she managed to do on her own. In fairness, she did rely on me and one of her own goals was to be more independent. I have to admire her determination to better herself and match it.
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I think right now, until you get your feet under you, NC is right where you need to be.
Best of luck.
I think you may be right. I've been waiting around rather than working on things. I will list out my goals again, and measure progress. It's really eye-opening of you to mention that there is no timeline to this. Some improvements would have positive impacts on my life in general, including my work. So I should stop waiting for the big payoff and just become better already.
Thanks and watch this space!!!
I know people like to hear advice from more than one source, but I see where it could become very confusing if you have too many. They aren't all going to be on the same page, which can leave you wondering what direction to take.
Thankfully I am finding ways to reconcile these sources now. But I was very confused for a while... Hoping I'm right in feeling things are getting a bit clearer. There's no getting away from the sadness and the fact that my odds are quite long... But I can only do my best, informed by the best advice!
Good to see you back on here Mat. You do seem to be sit down and look rationalise things clearer than some on here, my self included. I have confidence after reading your posts that you'll do all right.
Old Dog xx
Hi all - thanks for the support. I feel a bit bad that I haven't shown up on other threads lately. I think I'll get back to it, especially since I have a bit more clarity so may be able to help out, who knows.
I think it'd be a good habit to track by 180s, publicly and in an accountable manner. It will also help me keep them in mind.
i) STFU, listen and validate.
Thinking about it, I don't have much progress to report. I have been more careful at work not to jump over other people. It's not the whole idea by any stretch. I need to create the occasion. I am a little wary of validating other dudes though, may come across as odd.
ii) Arguing small points, being a smartass
I ought to be getting a lot better at this. I have tons of opportunities to practice; it's a reflex that I need to kill off and it pervades all my interactions; so practicing it at work is just as good as anything. Maybe I'll flag this to my boss as professional development, so I can get feedback from him. You're not always conscious of your bad habits in practice. Goal for this coming week, is whenever I have the urge to contradict someone, play back their point to them first and find something about it to agree with.
iii) Not making her feel attractive
Not there yet!
iv) "Walking on eggshells" - telling her what she wants to hear.
Assertiveness point there. If there weren't so many budget cuts I'd ask for a coach at work. In the meantime I'll ask for help from my IC. Also, I've read some books on the topic. I am making progress at work on this I am pretty sure. Need to track it though. The feeling I need to watch for is apprehension before a conversation, the urge to be passive-aggressive instead of forthright and open.
v) Talking about my feelings
My IC isn't a DB guy. So he keeps checking how I'm feeling about holding out for a reconciliation that will probably never happen. Instead of trying to ram DB down his throat, I have expressed that I don't think any relationship with me in it, in the last 10 years, would have worked out. So the reason I leave the door open is that I could look for someone new, but that wasn't the issue in the first place. My W was and is a perfectly good candidate even today; just need to create a better relationship. So it's not that I am clinging; it's just that I've not identified my W as the problem so until she's decidedly closed to R and the D is signed, I am open to R. He seems to have accepted that; and he wants to work on why I don't think I could have succeeded in any relationships. That's perfectly in line with DB as far as I'm concerned.
Anyway, long preamble to say that I'll work with IC to process feelings better. I believe that it's a keystone aspect of my personality that's made it harder to do the right things for my relationship. In the meantime, I'll also be more vocal about how I feel with the appropriate audiences. This morning, I did signal to a colleague that I was feeling aggravated for no good reason, and I needed to shake it off! Just in a light, chatty way. He said he gets like that on Friday mornings too! Small baby steps. We're not into the deep stuff at all, but it's the discipline I presume.
In terms of GAL, I think I need to catch up with a friend this weekend. Kickboxing and PT are great, but I need to sit down and chat. I'll think of my willing victim and send out a text...
Have a great weekend all!
I really like v.
Actually I think they're all good but v is a great foundation to work from.
Keep it up.
Thanks! Will focus on that one. If I get the chance to receive contact I'll try a bit of i and ii. Go easy on the iv initially, as it may appear conflictual given the context.
Wedding anniversary coming up on Thursday. Probably need to think of a text or something. This is where total NC may be a bit overboard?
Yay - was reminded that I was invited to a party tonight! It's a social setting and all, but here's what I want to do:
- I will not tell anyone the detail or sequence of events of the separation. I may say I'm separated, but that's it.
- I will apply my relationship 180s to a social setting. See if that helps my people skills. Problem is, I can easily slip into "life of the party" mode, which can make me a bit boisterous at times. But I will focus on i and ii.
- I will have a good time.
- I will behave so I can be at my most attractive. I won't necessarily flirt, but if there's a single woman there she's going to tell herself "too bad he's going through a separation - I'll keep him in mind".
- Hard, absolute limit is 3 pints, 4 if I get there before 7pm.
Mat, you've come a really long way in a few weeks. I admire the way you laid out your goals and established how you would maintain accountability for them.
It's interesting to me how many of them you've tied to your professional life. That's a tool that hasn't been available to me as a SAHM and I'm going to consider it motivation for getting on the stick about establishing employment pronto. I had forgotten to think of a career as anything other than a means to a paycheck. Thanks for being a good example.
Keep up the PMA and have fun at the party tonight!
Thanks!
On the career thing, great going. These principles are really about making us more independent, autonomously happy, and able to do what's right rather than what's obvious, easy, or familiar. Amongst other things. That's all good stuff for work. Plus, in my case, it's a pragmatic solution to the fact that besides friends whom I don't see as often as I like, it's a chance to practice and identify my reflexes. I don't have any contact with my wife...
Also, to be honest, a lot of what I write is wishful thinking. But that's how it starts; I want my actions to match my words.
I would assume that it's applicable to every other social situation. Volunteering, that sort of thing.
If you need encouragement on NC then revisit Thornton's thread. Which I know you know. But count how many times he had to be encouraged to stick with it and how down hearted he was a lot of the time.
Had a pretty good party yesterday. I think I showed pretty good social skills. One small exception, sometimes I seem to insist on finishing my stories, or rather provide all the painful details even when it's clear that they don't really add anything. I think it's a habit I hadn't noticed up until now.
Also, broke my drinking limit big time. So I am a little blue today, but I remind myself it's normal and I shouldn't be drinking. All my fault.
I'm still a bit worried over next contact. And I am starting to get more upset at W. I don't know if I need to let it out. I feel really disrespected in this whole thing.
What should I do, if anything, on Thursday when it's our anniversary?
You have to let your upset out somehow (not to her) because the only way out is through.
Good on you for noticing your story-telling technique.
Yeah - I think MWD advises against "externalising" your anger too much in her discussion of SBT. Says there's evidence that it can make things worse?
Anyhoo... will let alcohol blues pass and revisit in the morning. Gonna get some rest for the week ahead. Four day week for me!!
Well I contacted her again. She put through a £400 charge on a credit card that I had the account info for, to change the address on the car insurance because her new neighbourhood has more thefts.
So I texted to see if she knew anything about it, and I was preparing to let her have it. But she simply texted back with an explanation and asked me for the info so she could pay. I texted back something like I was hoping that she was safe in that neighourhood, and that I'd send the info by email, and that I was hoping she was having a nice summer holiday and doing well.
Didn't hear back.
From the moment of the breakup, I always had a nagging feeling like I was the 1% exception, that her mind was made up. It happens too, DB acknowledges as much.
I think I really have to brace myself and focus on my new reality. Fix the house, sell up, move on...
To clarify something above;
I was annoyed because it's our shared car, which she gets to keep since she uses it for work. And she charged the extra premium to a card that she knows she can't access to online facility to pay it. So I felt like she was trying to charge ME for her privilege of using our shared car, which was a tad rich... So I didn't feel like that was chasing, though I couldn't help but say something sort of nice in case she'd reply.
Darn -
Should I have not said anything nice in my text other than just get the clarification and give out the info??
I guess being new here, the only resounding success I've seen in my "contemporaries" is Thornton, and he really went dark. I'd go as far as saying he went black hole.
Also trying hard not to be a fixer. But she really got me by simply putting a charge on a card I manage, was she thinking I'd just pay it? Really cheeky.
Anyway. Reassure me or hit me in the face please.
I'm in such a bad mood. I need my sleep. And I need to not send out texts if I'm going to be pissed off as what comes back - or not come back.
Definitely not sending her anything on our anniversary this Thursday.
Get some space my man. Send nothing. Let her reach out and take time to respond to whatever she says/sends
That's sound advice. But not to make excuses, she did send me something: a 400 quid bill!!
I hate this limbo. I just want to get my dilapidated house fixed, live somewhere nice or get the cash out then really think about things.
Hi all,
Going out tonight with a meetup group. Hope this goes well.
I have pretty much lost hope with wife. I think her stubbornness, and the fact that I am realising she was sincere in her reasons, mean that this is out of reach for me.
Interesting thing, it was our anniversary two days ago, and her sister posted wishes on my facebook wall. That would mean she hasn't had the courage to tell her family yet. If I was optimistic, that could mean that she's actually reconsidering. But I know her history with her family, unfortunately I think she's just not interested in them being involved in her life. She'll have to let them know sooner or later, mind.
I am making progress on the house front. The lawyer is almost close to a final draft of the letter I need to write the freeholder to unlock the whole license for works thing. It'll be nice to feel like I am moving forward in life.
I dread that the next conversation I'll have with my wife will be about D. I just don't see any other possibility. What reason would she have to come back - there's nothing to miss in her mind.
A lot of mindreading, I know. But I get that from what she's been saying long before she left.
My job will be to have a good time tonight. I won't be dead for a while, and I need to move past this. I'm not the only person with an ex in this world.
I'll also schedule a call with coach to see if there's anything I can do.
At least I am detaching. If I'm wrong about her intentions that'll help. In the last four weeks, the only happy moments I've had is when I am daydreaming about us reuniting. I need to knock that $hit off. It can't be healthy.
New beginnings.
Mat, although it's really healthy to acknowledge the reality of your situation, it isn't over till it's over.
I don't want to say much more than that, because I don't want to cheat you of a necessary stage. Calling a coach is a good move.
Hang in there.
Thanks Maybell. It's hard to keep going on in limbo like this, as I know you know.
Read labug's thread. She & her H were separated 2.5 years but that time was mainly about her own growth. She had moments of blues, but many more of wisdom, humor, personal development, and growth during that time. If I could show similar depth of character and grace and just general loveliness I'd count myself a success no matter what happened to my marriage.
Hands Matt and envelope
* inside your invitation to my personal black hole party! *
I've gone dark, h is not too smart he thinks I should chase him even after he spat just short of bogies spit, but there was moisture in my face.
Come share jokes and keep posting and holding our cyber hands. Even if she turns out not be or worth the wait. We are here and
We, including you are damn awesome!
Ps
I get the bill thing, mine sent arrears from work done in r! Oh and expects me to give him $17k no questions asked!
Um hell no!
aaaawwww shucks no one's online to advise!!! She just texted. I can't read her attitude. "Hey if you have time let's meet up. Let me know if u r free".
I give it an hour then say I'm free after 4pm. I know we're told not to accept every invitation, but turning her down after 4 dark-ish weeks seems a bit silly no?
I really wanna see what she's up to - and if I have to brace for D (though I won't bring it up myself). And I think I can pull off the brave face. I'll have gone to kickboxing earlier in the day, and I'll talk passionately about getting my a$$ kicked.
OK I'm talking myself into it. If anyone is going to talk me out of this you have an hour!
No, Matt go kick a$$!
Good luck.
Go for the talk if she wants!! It could be any number of things, try to prepare for at least the big three, D, R, or just catching up. Just act like everytjing is good, no matter how hard anything she says hits. My WAW has said some really nasty things early into separation, now it's all friendly. Who knows what it means, doesn't matter as long as you are happy with you.
Thanks you guys! I am pumped no matter what. If she brings up D logistics I'll be responsive but not too much.
The scary thing is; our separation wasn't nasty. That's what makes me think she may be detached.
But I can't do anything about that. I can only review my 180s.
Thanks a lot you guys. Are you in my time zone?
It's 8pm here! Not sure your zone.
Hmmm this may end in tears but for now it's interesting. I text back "I have something until three, free after that. What do you have in mind, food, coffee?"
Then she goes "Let's jut grab a drink somewhere. Let me know what time & where. Don't have much going on so can b anywhere whenever."
They tell us not to mind read, for obvious reasons. But you know what the problem is? It's so much FUN
I hope that she's doing all right, but if she's a bit blue it'll be a chance to showcase my new validating, caring self.
Ah I am in the UK. that's why I was worried it was middle of the night for most of the supportive regulars!
Will start a new thread...
Thanks you guys! I am pumped no matter what. If she brings up D logistics I'll be responsive but not too much.
The scary thing is; our separation wasn't nasty. That's what makes me think she may be detached. \
TRUST ME on this---having a nasty separation is NOT better than a "restrained" one. (I won't say yours was "friendly" b/c I doubt those actually exist.) But yes, yours was relatively 'drama free'. That IS MUCH better than the alternative.
But I can't do anything about that. I can only review my 180s.
Thanks a lot you guys. Are you in my time zone?
Mat, you sure are a quick study! However, I think you are assuming too much, too negatively, and too soon.
I was at this for over 2 years, and gave my m a "10% chance of working out" to my sisters at the time. I meant that too.
But hey, here we are. Check my timeline below in my signature.
Plus I had a wonderful DB coach and a great pro marriage counselor, who were very helpful.
I AM interested in YOUR take on the m. You sound as if you agree with most of what your w says about how you two lacked passion and romance, and that in effect you were/are like "friends."
If that is true, is that what you wanted THEN? What do YOU want now?
How do YOU think you could get there, with her? (Assume she wants to try, for the sake of discussion).
What would YOU Do differently with her? And with yourself?
How would YOU behave differently and how would you treat her differently?
Get at least a few details in your head clarified to know what it would look like.
Hang in there, I need to read the rest of your thread. But it is certainly too soon to quit. Really.
But sure, You can fake acceptance of the situation ("respecting her wishes")
but don't discount the chance that she would like you to fight for her. Craving passion is not a bad thing, per se.
Meanwhile, watch some TED TALK videos. They are on youtube. One is by Amy Cuddy on "Faking it til you Become it" and Shawn Achor on Positive Psychology". They are each about 20 min long and entertaining. But there is ample empirical evidence supporting their theses, so DO watch them and see what you glean from them to help you.
It's tough stuff but it's so worth it and they lay out the path.
More later...