Hi,
I was on here years ago with a different issue about a different relationship, so no need to research my history.
The story is until recently I was in a relationship for two years with an AMAZING woman. She is smart, confident, beautiful and loving. The only problem was our sexual chemistry wasn't great. I didn't know how to talk to her about it, and I ended up in an affair to get those needs met. I felt awful about it and cut it off with OW. OW was so upset, she sent a letter to my fiancee outlining all the details of our affair just to ruin my life.
Fiancee has said she never wants to see me again, and changed the locks on her (our) apartment. This was two weeks ago. I've made a number of calls and emails, some have been replied to -- almost always angrily, but some have been mildly compassionate. None have been loving.
What's my next move? I want to go over there and beg for her to take me back. I know that's not recommended, but I really don't know what else to do.
If your sexual chemistry wasn't "great" and rather than talking to your fiancee about it, you had an A, what makes you think that you're not going to do it again?
BTW, is this the same finacee that you were waivering to marry 2 years ago?
No, different Fiancee. The one from a few years ago is now engaged to someone else, and I'm happy for her.
The reason I think we can get through it is because our sex is GOOD often, it just hasn't been as good as it was with OW. But I can't ever have an affair again -- it completely degraded my self worth. I got more and more depressed the longer it went on.
My fiancee is the kindest, sweetest, most loving and nurturing woman I've ever met. I am DEEPLY remorseful. And she won't have anything to do with me at this point.
In about 5 days, it will be exactly two years since your last post........where you were desperately wanting your ex-finacee (at that time) to return to you. You were meeting up with her and wanted to know how to act.
So did you begin a R with this woman immediately following your last post?
If she is a rebound for you, it may not matter how sweet & kind she is. And you had an A and now sex isn't as good as it was with OW.
I'm not so sure this is a different issue. I kind of think it all may be tied together. However, if you don't post more often than last time, the board won't be able to help you. Stick to one thread this time, and post regularly. You'll get better support.
I gave up with the Ex this time two years ago. It was a year after we broke up. I met my current Fiancee July 7 that summer. We fell for each other quickly, but didn't have a great sexual energy at first. She responded well to me (very lubricated and lots of orgasms), but I had a hard time (no pun intended). It left me wanting, and I strayed with a married woman who was in an open relationship. I told myself it was "safe." We met every 4-6 weeks for much of my relationship, even though I was falling deeply in love with my girlfriend. It finally became too much (although it should have been from the beginning, I know), and I called it off.
It seems like you are doubtful of my sincerity or ability to commit. That's fair. I'm in therapy 2x a week to figure all this out. But in the mean time, I'm in a TON of pain at the idea that I have completely ruined the chances of being with my Fiancee. She is SO HURT and was SO DISGUSTED when she got the letter. I don't blame her. But I still want to know what my next move is. If any move at all.
When I picked up the last of my stuff from her apartment a week ago, she said she didn't want to be friends and didn't want to see me again, although we have common friends (we'll be at the same b-day party next Saturday). I know she's said a lot of hateful things in anger -- she's a very classy woman and is normally VERY easy to navigate conflict with.
I think you should honor her request. Use the time away to get yourself straighten out. Work with your therapist. Work to improve yourself. Learn from your experiences and don't make the same R mistakes again.
Honor her request for how long? You say "use the time away" as if there will be a time to return. When is that? I'm so desperate and confused right now. I know I seem pathetic, but I can think of nothing else.
I'm having mild anxiety attacks over it. The guilt and shame are overpowering. I'm scrambling to make the pain stop in some way...
And if I shouldn't reach out to her now, what should I do to quiet my mind? I don't talk to my therapist again until Monday. That's years away...
DBinSF, you say you were here two years ago for a different woman. What did you get out of this site the first time you were here?
I didn't get my partner back (that was truly never meant to be in hindsight), but this is a new situation. Seems like some of the same advice might work this time, however.
I understand you didn't get your partner back. What DID you get out of coming to this site last time?
I'm not sure what I got out of it, to be honest. Some good advice about the last resort. I even did a phone consultation with a DB staffer. But my relationship from them wasn't meant to be.
This time, I'm hoping I can turn things around for real. The woman I've been with for the last two years is the ONLY person I've ever been with that receive unanimous, jubilant approval from everyone in my life. She is smart, generous, loving, and fun. And I'm deeply ashamed about my actions. Yes, I have some old wounds I'm still working through. Wounds that make me seek outside myself for affirmation.
I'm working with a therapist on changing those habits. With his help, I was able to end the affair a few months ago. And now that I'm ready to commit and put that all behind me, the affair has just now come to light, and I'm paying the price.
Well, I had an affair too so I understand how you feel. What I see from the few posts you've written, and something that was very evident in my situation, is that you need to look at why you felt the need to get into the affair in the first place. You've had two failed engagements and an affair. What did you feel you were missing from these women? What did you expect from them that they weren't providing? Why were you here two years ago only to give up on that relationship and enter a new one? What made you feel getting engaged to your recent fiance was the right thing to do?
A lot of questions and they may sound harsh. Good news is that the vets recognise you. Bad news is that it's time to grab a shovel and start digging into your soul. Good luck!
Barrybran,
Thanks for the empathetic reply. I am indeed digging right now.
I'm looking first not at "what was missing in these women" but at what's missing inside me that leads me to believe there might be something missing in these women -- if that makes sense.
I experienced severe trauma and abuse growing up in an alcoholic home. I'm in Alanon recovery right now (have been for 4 years), but I wasn't really getting to the bottom of it. I started intensive therapy 3 months ago (2x a week), and within weeks I had called it off with the OW and started moving towards opening up and being more vulnerable with my Fiancee.
My main problem is one of discomfort with true intimacy. The sex I most "enjoy" is fleeting, physical sex with a woman I can completely objectify. I escape to a fantasy of who she is and feel "dominant." Sex with my partner (fiancee) was softer and sweeter and required me to summon up a deeper intimacy and vulnerability, which made me fearful and withdrawn. I literally felt like my penis was smaller with my fiancee than with the OW. It was demoralizing and damaging to my self-esteem.
What I'm working on now is decoupling sex from my self esteem. I've committed to 3 months minimum of celibacy (unless my Fiancee and I get back together). It might be more if I still have sexual urges during periods of weakness and low self-esteem.
I keep on asking for advice on what my next move is with my fiancee, but I'm getting a pretty clear message from the community here that I should be keeping the focus on myself. Let me know if there's anything else I need to know.
Thanks!
It seems like you are doubtful of my sincerity or ability to commit.
No, that's not my point.
But I do get confused with you constantly referring to being in a R with this woman, when it clearly shows by your own posting history you were trying to win back your ex in June 2012. Last time I checked, that was exactly two years ago. Then you said it was a year later before you and this woman started a R. And when you said not to look up your history..,..,,of course, I did. Those type of things get my attention.
If you can't wait till Monday to talk to therapist, get emergency counseling. But I think, based on your history of not waiting for advice and jumping from thread to thread, you don't have the patience. You want a snap answer. Well, I gave you a snap answer! Honor her request and get your sh't together!
Frankly, you don't need to be with a woman you already find sexual dissatisfaction with. She doesn't deserve you.
Thanks, Sandi 2. Perhaps I should clarfiy my timeline.
April 2011 - Split with Ex1.
June 2012 - Posted on DB about getting Ex1 back. Was not successful. Definitely for the best.
July 2012 - Started dating woman who is now Ex2
August 2012 - Realized Sexual connection with Ex2 was not great.
Sept/Oct 2012 - Began non-sexual affair with woman I'd dated earlier in 2011. She was in an open marriage, thus seemed "emotional safe" from my perspective.
June 2013 - Have sex with OW for first time
Sept 2013 - Got caught emailing Ex1 by Ex2. Ex2 was not happy.
Feb 2013 - Got caught emailing other random women (not OW) by Ex2. She was very not happy and asked me to move out.
Feb 2014 - I entered intensive therapy.
Mar 2014 - I called it off for good with OW
Apr 2014 - OW emailing and texting me to get back together
May 4, 2014 - I write very strongly worded message to OW to ask her to leave me alone for good -- that I intended to marry my GF and that I never loved her (OW)
May 14, 2014 - OW prints out my email, writes a detailed and explicit cover letter, and mails them both to my GF.
May, 19, 2014 - GF opens letter from OW. Changes locks, and tells me she never wants to see me again. AKA - End of live as we know it.
May 30, 2014 - I'm back on DB.
The time period between June and September 2012 is very telling as all three women make an appearance. Sandi is right in that you should honour your girlfriend's request. Quite simply, you are not ready for a relationship. You also appear to be is unhealthily focused on sex. As my wife told me just yesterday, sex is a bonus. I feel that is oversimplified, I feel it is an important part of a healthy relationship, but she brought up the notion of finding herself in an accident and never being able to have sex again. She asked would I leave. It's not something I had ever considered and helped reaffirm what the priorities in a relationship are.
I went to a few Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous meetings in the last few days. I have never heard other people tell my story before. I'm humbled and saddened.
So did you learn anything from the meeting, or did they only share their experiences? Have you ever discussed any of this with your therapist?
It seems like you are doubtful of my sincerity or ability to commit.
Frankly, you don't need to be with a woman you already find sexual dissatisfaction with. She doesn't deserve you.
What exactly do you mean by this? Just trying to clarify.
My biggest concern is the amount of emphasis that you put on sex. A M is much more than just sex. What assurance does she have that you'll stick around if she can't have sex any more?
According to you, the sexual dissatisfaction caused you to have a third party involved.......before the M. What did you honestly expect to happen after M? What were your plans in dealing with it?
A long MR has enough challenges without entering into one knowing full well you are not sexually satisfied with your financee. It's not fair to either of you. And if you told her the things you told us about her.....it could crush her as a woman. I mean, how would you feel if she had an A with some OM based on his size? People can learn skills but they can't do a lot about how their body is designed.
I'm saying you need to get this stuff worked out before you get into any committed R. If you went to a sex addicts meeting, you must feel that something is not as it should be.
Thanks, Sandi2, and others...
To explain, the sex with my Fiancee was good, it just wasn't all that exciting. I had a hard time getting an erection for the first month or so. It very quickly became routine, whereas it was always exciting with the OW.
I'm learning a lot with my therapist and in the Sex Addiction meetings (NOTE: my therapist says it's unclear whether I'm actually an addict b/c I was able to stop all sexual behavior cold turkey when this all went down. I'm not using sex or masturbation as a coping behavior at all right now)
What my therapist thinks is that I actually find sex that is based on love and real connection more difficult to engage with. I have walls up -- fears about true intimacy. This makes a lot of sense. The more my Fiancee wanted to talk about kids or planning our life together, the more I wanted to escape to this frivolous affair. The OW was married (albeit in an open R), so it felt "safe" from the perspective of I'd never have to worry about her wanting to make me commit. And I was wrong on that point, b/c she ended up wanting to leave her H for me.
Anyway, I have intimacy issues, and I'm working that out with DEEP therapy right now. In the mean time, I'm still in contact with my Ex Fiancee, and she is getting more and more set in never wanting to ever talk about reconciliation. In fact, the other night she said that every time I mention "working it out someday" she think I am even sicker than she thought. She thinks I have no empathy for how much pain this has caused her -- no real conception of how much this has [censored] her over.
I agree I can't get in her head, but I don't see how trying to leave the possibility for reconciliation open is selfish and sick. I love this woman, and want to work it out.
Do I need to go dark? Do I continue to be nice? We're in the same social circles and still friends on Facebook, etc. It's hard to go dark entirely. Should I just stop communicating with her aside from times when we end up in the same place? Or should I continue to tell her I love her and that I'm trying to work on my [censored]?
So confused... So upset this is all slipping away -- and it's all my fault.
Yes, go dark. Continue therapy. You should not pursue your ex-fiancee.
Sorry to read that you are experiencing relationship problems once again. As is common in divorce, troubling history repeats itself in next marriage. In your case, engagements. Please speak to a Divorce Busting Coach as soon as possible. You will benefit tremendously from the insights and knowledge you will receive. In addition, your coach will help you see your relationship mistakes and help you learn the correct things to say and do to get your fiancee back. Call me to discuss our Divorce Busting Coaching program 303-444-7004.
I did the DB Coaching program last time and he just told me to go dark, which I did, and it didn't work.
My ex-fiancee just unfriended me on Facebook. She's trying to cut me out completely. I'm feeling lost and afraid.
Hi all,
So quick update: I've had a few more interactions with my Ex since my last post. She says stuff like "I just need to be clear, it's over." And then she proceeds to ask me all sorts of questions about "How could I ever trust you again? How would I know you're living with integrity?" Her friends tell me she's still angry and that if there's a chance of reconciliation, it will be a LONG time from now. Given that she's 35 and wants kids, I fear she will jump right into another relationship.
I've done a crazy amount of work in the last two months on myself, and it's been really good. I have clarity on the fact that I need to keep working on myself for a while to get straight about things, to drive home new habits around integrity and trustworthiness, and really to start being the man I've always wanted to be.
Our Anniversary is coming up on July 7. We were going to be on a beach vacation with my family that week. Should I reach out to commemorate it in some way?
Thanks!
Should I reach out to commemorate it in some way?
NO!!!!!!!
Let it go... work on yourself. Give her all the uninterrupted time to heal she needs. Do not keep pressuring her on R. Every time you do, you are driving her further away. Just realize that her healing made lead her to a conclusion that you might not like. Accept that and move on with your own healing no matter what.
If there is a chance to R, you are going to have to rebuild your "house of trust" brick by brick. The foundation the house will be built on is you. A solid foundation means a solid house. But realize, you will always have to maintain your house. If you don't, you may end up where I am now.
I also had an A many years ago, the bomb dropped during our S. It was a while before we even spoke, texted, emailed or anything. When we finally did talk, I had to be brutally honest with her about anything and everything to do with the A. She grilled me for months about it and I agreed to be an open book and always accessible to answer any question she had. Your fiancee may not want to do that but be prepared for it. If you are faced with that, you would be best served by having your head in the best possible place.
It is SO HARD not to reach out to her. I broke NC today with a little "How's all your school work going?" text. She had been stressing out last Sunday over her MBA work, and I dropped off a little food for her (which she appreciated and thanked me dryly for over text). We had a short email exchange after that (her asking more how she could ever trust -- me outlining how great it all could be if we were both aligned around healing and moving forward.
No response from her.
I KNOW I need to leave her alone, but it's just SO. [censored]. HARD. She's the love of my life, and she's fading away from me. Like in those movies when someone falls in slow-mo away from the camera. She's just falling and falling. Perhaps right into someone else's arms.
The way I've handled break-ups in the past is I've compulsively dated afterwards. I've IMMEDIATELY tried to get back out there and "get over it under someone else." I'm not doing that this time, and all the sitting at home in my shitty little apartment alone (with the boxes of my stuff and all our photos and memories that she moved out of her apartment stacked in the closet) really drives me nuts.
I want a quick fix, and I know there isn't one. Ugh. Well, thanks for letting me vent... Any wisdom on how to handle the loneliness (without burning out all my friends) would be much obliged.
Well, I DIDN'T text or email her yesterday or today. That's 48 hours. Small victories, I guess...
Sigh...
4 days no contact. New record.
I broke No Contact on Monday. Big mistake. She is still SO PISSED. She is drawing so many lines in the sand. Her last message said, "I've so f-ing done with this. GOOD BYE."
I just keep digging myself in a hole. It hurts SO MUCH without her. I'm going through withdrawal. I'm having insane regrets.
Yeah youre gonna have to make more of an effort than just a few days man. She has to miss you some before you can try to do that kind of thing. Youve only been at this for 2 weeks or so total.
You talk about it hurting so much without her. How much pain do you think she is in right now? She wants nothing to do with you right now. Youre going to have to give her some space and consider her needs here.
Get a grip and leave her alone for a bit.
"I broke No Contact on Monday. Big mistake."
What did you do?
I wrote her a text on our anniversary. We were supposed to celebrate it at my family's rented beach house in NJ (we live in CA). It said, "Lovely Julia, I just wanted to let you know you're in my thoughts, especially on this date. Just know that everyone here loves you and misses you. I pray that with enough hardwork, love, and faith that we can all be back here laughing together this time next year. I have enough of each for the two of us."
Well, she responded with some accusations that I'm continuing to lie about unrelated stuff on FB, spinning facts to make myself look good. And it turned into a two day back and forth of her telling me to leave her alone and go away and me saying "We were so good when we we good, we have so much love and joy ahead of us...Please just tell me one thing I can do to start to rebuild trust."
It ended with her threatening to block my number. Totally NOT the result I was hoping for. I know I just need to leave her alone. I do need to get a grip. I'm sorry I haven't been able to act upon the great advice I've gotten from this community. I've been TOTALLY spun out for weeks. Can't eat, can't sleep, can't work. I'm falling through the cracks with anxiety and depression...
The good news is I have friends who are supporting me and a therapist who gets me. And I connected with my father in a way last night that I don't think I ever have before. He actually held me and consoled me for the first time in my life, and he gave me encouragement that was more than "Go get 'em." So, maybe that's the gift of this whole situation.
We've told you and the DB coach told you to go dark. This was your reply on June 13:
I did the DB Coaching program last time and he just told me to go dark, which I did, and it didn't work.
Then about two weeks later you say you've had contacts with her:
So quick update: I've had a few more interactions with my Ex since my last post. She says stuff like "I just need to be clear, it's over."
The woman is through with you! Her friends are trying to tell you (which I assume you've been asking them, too).
Her friends tell me she's still angry and that if there's a chance of reconciliation, it will be a LONG time from now.
Our Anniversary is coming up on July 7. We were going to be on a beach vacation with my family that week. Should I reach out to commemorate it in some way?
Seriously?
It is SO HARD not to reach out to her. I broke NC today with a little "How's all your school work going?" text. She had been stressing out last Sunday over her MBA work, and I dropped off a little food for her (which she appreciated and thanked me dryly for over text).
I broke No Contact on Monday. Big mistake. She is still SO PISSED. She is drawing so many lines in the sand. Her last message said, "I've so f-ing done with this. GOOD BYE."
This reminds of that old Clint Eastwood movie, "Misty". You are obsessed and need help. But you won't listen to anyone, b/c it's too hard!
You don't want her. It's b/c she dumped you....(after she learned you were cheating)....and suddenly you couldn't live without her. When she didn't want you....THEN she was the one for you! Have you forgotten all the things you found wrong that led you to OW? That doesn't seem near as important now b/c you are over-focused on just getting her to take you back. Even if she did, you would cheat on her again.
Quote:
It seems like you are doubtful of my sincerity or ability to commit.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Frankly, you don't need to be with a woman you already find sexual dissatisfaction with. She doesn't deserve you.
What exactly do you mean by this? Just trying to clarify.
Ben, I was being sarcastic. He was complaining about the girl he was engaged to, and went to another person for more sexual gratification. So she dumped him and
now he won't take "no" for an answer. He needs to let it go. She deserves a better man.
Thanks, Sandi2. I'm loving the support on here.
For clarification, I left the affair months ago and told the OW I was committed to marrying my fiancee. I wanted to work things out with my Fiancee then, and I want it now.
Hi all,
It's been 18 days of No Contact with my ex-fiancee. Although I ran into her at a party last night, we didn't speak. I'm coming to terms with my Love Addiction and going to meetings. I have a sponsor and I'm working the First Step.
I'd like to continue learning about the DB Community and methods. I'd love some advice on how long I should stay Dark. I know a few members here have some harsh judgements for me, but perhaps others have a little more compassion for what is a very painful and regretful situation.
Thanks!
DBin- I feel your pain, I really do. Just know one thing- you aren't ready to be in an R when you can't live without it.
Think about that for a minute. Really. I feel where you're coming from, as do many. And the last thing you want is time on your own, ANYTHING to comfort yourself.
But there is nothing you can do to force your ex back. Only things you can do to drive her away (which your neediness will as you've seen).
The question is what is so terrible about being alone? Why are you so uncomfortable in your own skin? Is it the pain of rejection and being abandoned? Is it that the real world is too painful so you've created a fantasy of how great your life will be when you reunite, it will solve your problems because you will finally understand each other perfectly and share pure love so strong it transcends superficial differences? Those were some of my problems, read my thread.
The reality is though your life will always be a disaster until you learn to walk on your own two feet. Now, if you're like me you say- 'great mr. Know it all, but I'm not strong enough to do that! How do I get from here to there?!!!' Well, it's like any other problem. When you hit rock bottom and truly NEED to change you will find a way to do it because you HAVE to. I HAVE to change because I DO hope to reconcile and DO want to be healthier no matter what. I was damn near suicide for too long, I'm done running from the fact it was my own destructive outlooks bringing the pain on. So if you are done feeling this way then stop thinking its about your ex, or because you're missing out on your fantasy utopia. It's in your head and outlook.
Frankly you sound as mixed up as many drug addicts I've known, and smart enough to rationalize and distort logic to avoid reality and the need for REAL change. I'd recommend finding a therapist and when you feel like they don't understand you and just don't get it...think again. It IS VERY tough but if you really want to feel different in the future than you do now it is what you have to do.
Anything else is self deception. You have a broken arm and I'm telling you to go to the doctor. And you're thinking 'but if I just had a new puppy dog I'm sure I'd feel better, I want a puppy!!!' At some point even the best bs-er acknowledges reality after enough pain. Are you there yet?
Dude, you stay dark until she starts showing signs that she has been given ample opportunity to process everything. See? It's all on her now so it makes sense for you to take care of you, GAL, stay dark, go to meetings, NOT DATE and figure this sh!t out completely. You think you're in pain? Imagine finding out that someone you love has been cheating on you for a loooong time... And how did she find out? From the broken hearted OW. OUCH!! You're in deep. This isn't about convincing her that you're worth it or good together or that you've finally found the magic elixir that will keep you faithful, this is about you giving her the room and the respect she deserves to heal. She may or may not come back to you but if you're all up in her face after a month, she's definitely not coming back. This is about her. Her. Back off. How long? Only she knows and you're not giving her the space to figure that out.
We're not being harsh, we're being honest. I have not read one sentence in your story (and I've followed it closely) in which her needs have even made it onto your radar. Until you truly recognize and desire to meet her needs, she's right to make you a smudge in her rear view mirror. She has almost no life investment in you. Her greatest experience of you is searing pain and continuous disrespect. Why on earth would she be attracted back to you? "Because I want her" isn't a reason for her to feel attracted.
Thank you for your responses. I AM committed to getting my [censored] together. And I understand that work needs to be done on my own. I have huge swings between "pink cloud" euphoria of what my life will be like once I truly have my feet firmly under me, and total despair that I've ruined the greatest thing in my life. It's a roller coaster.
Maybell, how do I learn how to meet her needs? How do I get them on my radar? I really want to learn that. Even if it's from a distance, or so I don't make the same mistakes again in another relationship.
Thanks1
Concern for her needs means you acknowledge that she is a person separate from you with her own specific perspective. When you can see how she sees your actions -- all of them over the course of your entire relationship -- from her point of view And ONLY her point of view, THEN you might be ready to proceed.
In the meantime she has been quite clear that her emotional need is to be done with you. You must respect that.
My opinion is that she needs someone less needy. So to meet her needs you must be able to meet more of your own. Your perspective hasnt budged from 'doing whatever it takes to get her back'. Thats not growth, thats further controlling and manipulative behavior. Until you can envision being healthy on your own you are bringing her down even if you could force her back (which you cannot!).
"I know a few members here have some harsh judgements for me, but perhaps others have a little more compassion for what is a very painful and regretful situation. "
First of all, EVERYONE who has posted to you have compassion towards you and your situation. You seem to think that those who can't answer in a way that YOU want aren't compassionate. Think again. A little humility too would serve you well.
As for what you need to do, I don't know what else you expect. Everyone has told you to leave her alone - your coach, the posters, her friends, your fiancee, etc. But for some reason you don't want to seem to accept that.
You cheated on her, complained about her sex life with you, etc. and evidently cheating was the one thing that she won't tolerate. If she had that deep seated boundary within her, there's nothing you can do to change her mind. That has to come from her. Unfortunately you're going to need more patience. Especially since she responded so angrily to you the last time you contacted her. I mean you can keep changing and maybe from word of mouth through your mutual friends, she'll hear about it. But the trust has to be re-established from her end.
Give it more time.
Thank you for this. Do you mean she would need ME to be less needy? And not just that she needs SOMEONE ELSE than me?
DB, do you understand that your fiancee decided that you were the man she was going to entrust the entire rest of her life to? And you ripped out her heart, threw it on the ground, stomped on it, and showed the mess to another woman? And then the other woman wrote a letter to your fiancee telling her that you had done this?
That is what an affair feels like to the person who has been betrayed.
Now imagine that had been done to you. Don't just sit here for a minute and imagine it. Really think, for a while, about what it would feel like to have that done to you, what you would think of your loved one afterwards, what you would feel about yourself for having trusted that person, what you would think of the integrity of the person with whom the cheating had occurred.
At what point in her position would you want to revisit any of those feelings if you didn't have to?
She didn't marry you. She probably feels like she dodged a bullet that she found out about this stuff before the wedding.
I'm not saying this to be harsh on you or to condemn you. I'm saying this because I lived it and you don't get it. All your thinking is about you and how hard everything is for you. You haven't demonstrated real remorse. You changed your behavior because it cost you something you wanted. That's not remorse. Zues's point about you being needy is true because you placed your needs above hers at every turn. Including now. Again, I'm not trying to be harsh.
If you let her be, respected her pain, and really concentrated on being a better person, you would be asking different questions.
If you really FELT her pain and understood the way you eviscerated her with your actions, you would be on your knees just asking for forgiveness and understanding that she is her own person who had a right to be treated with love and respect and honor.
If you what real remorse looks like, go search for a poster named JFred. That guy is suffering. He comes here to talk about his suffering but he's taking responsibility for his pain.
Again, this is not to condemn you. But you're never going to get anywhere with the attitude you've shown here.
"Do you mean she would need ME to be less needy? And not just that she needs SOMEONE ELSE than me?"
No, I'm saying that that she doesn't "need" anything other than for you to leave her alone. Even if she goes out with someone else, that's her choice. You are still trying to control and manipulate things. She wants to be left alone. What she decides to do while she's alone is up to her. One thing is VERY OBVIOUS and that is that you contacting her has had ZERO affect on her and just gets her angrier.
You have to let her go.
"If you let her be, respected her pain, and really concentrated on being a better person, you would be asking different questions.
If you really FELT her pain and understood the way you eviscerated her with your actions, you would be on your knees just asking for forgiveness and understanding that she is her own person who had a right to be treated with love and respect and honor."
Thank you for the straight talk, Maybell. I WANT to know what questions to ask. And I have gotten on my knees and begged for forgiveness, but apparently even asking for forgiveness is a selfish act. So, at this point, if i ever do contact her again, it will likely be simply to apologize and tell her I release her. Holding on to the fantasy of reconciling is actually making me even sicker right now. I'm having panic attacks, not sleeping, not eating well. I have the anxious feeling coursing through my veins all day, everyday. It's even worse these last two days since seeing her on Saturday night at a party.
I hear you when you say I haven't really stopped being selfish. She said the same thing. I didn't get it at first, but I do now. I want to be the man she fell in love with, whether or not she ever loves me again -- because he's a pretty damn good man. He volunteers with kids, he works on self-improvement, he gives back to the community, he's creative and dynamic, he plays music and dances. And until now, he's had a dark side that is lustful and lacking confidence.
I'm working to heal that darkness. I really am. And I know that healing includes letting her go. Normally when I go through a break-up or a rough patch, I escape to coping behaviors like shopping, dating, drinking, or travel. This is THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE when I am engaging in NONE of those behaviors. My only "acting out" right now has been contacting her, and I haven't done that for 19 days.
I know this does not sound like any great accomplishment, but it's seriously the only thing I have to be proud of right now. I am fully "sober" for the first time in over 20 years. The rest of my life I've "coped" with things outside myself. Now it's really just me. And I HATE what I see. I hate what i've done. And the pain makes me want the security blanket of our relationship back.
I will not reach out to her. I will honor her space. And I will let her continue to hate me if that's what she needs to do. I really don't know how on earth she would ever hear through the grape vine that I'm "changed." Because no one knew I had this problem -- I had hidden it so well. Perhaps just getting my life together, making more money, not dating anyone at all will be indicators of growth. Or maybe not. Maybe as soon as it ceases to matter if I'll ever get her back will be the greatest indicator of growth.
So, thanks. If you have any more advice on how I can have more empathy for her, how I can "ask the right questions," I am all ears.
-DB
Thanks, MrBond. I know I do. You're right that I've only made things worse. Now I'm wondering if I should at least apologize for all of my pleading and manipulating after the breakup.
I think I know what you're going to say...
Spell it out. What will we say?
We don't have to live with you. You do. Be a man you can be proud of. Pour your need to cope into positive, constructive things.
Do not contact or plan contact with her again. If the universe intends you to be together, then trust that will happen in good time. If the universe does not intend you to be together, then send gratitude into the universe that she was put in your path to help make you a better person.
Beyond that, you've got work to do. Roll up your sleeves, it's going to be messy.
Love your post, Bond. Incredibly wise.
Right. No magic potions. No easy answers.
And it's already messy if you can't tell.
If you could see what an angel she is, you'd know just how sick I must be to do what I did. I'm working on getting better, but the fear of never meeting anyone as wonderful as she is overtakes me. I know I need to man up and live with the consequences of my actions. I feel like all I have left are consequences...
Sorry, I meant love your post Maybell.
thanks unbidden.
BtW, DB, just to be crystal clear...
It wasn't sick of you to cheat because she's an angel. It was sick to cheat. Period. She's no more of an angel than any of the other hundreds of "angels" on this forum who were cheated on. None of us deserved it more or less than any of the others.
That's the part you need to get.
I get it. I'm just fixated on how much I had and how much I've lost.
We know DBin. We all get it. Trust me.
The reason we are fixated on growth is for two big reasons. One, as you know, is that it is your best chance to get what you want 'specifically'. A miraculous recovery of a special someone.
But moreover it's your ONLY chance to get what you want in LIFE.
You've paid for a lesson. You've paid for it with a loss, and with a lot of pain. We want you to learn the lesson so that you don't have to pay for it again and again with future relationships and furthermore with future dissatisfaction with yourself and your life.
You were here before and didn't learn the lessons. I hate to say this to you...but we don't want you back! Unless it's to help others!
So it's ok to be aware of just what the lesson cost. Just make sure to get your pain's worth.
So let me ask the important question. If you were told by God himself that this relationship was never coming back...what changes would you make for yourself to improve your life?
PS- proud of you for not self medicating. That's not much growth by itself (it is in a way) but opens up the possibility of growth that self medication interferes with.
Thanks, Zeus. I realize that the ONLY gift in this situation is that I get to hit rock bottom and push off again with tremendous force. I get to FINALLY learn to be the man I've always wanted to be. The man this woman saw in me when we first got together before he crawled into a cave and let the depressed love addict take over.
I have books and businesses and dreams inside me that have never come out. I've lived with fear of failure, fear of being "found out" as a fake, fear of intimacy and commitment. I have never had that cool, calm self-confidence of the men I admire. I've PRETENDED to have it for years, and I people often believe me, but it never lasts.
My job now is to nurture that man. To cultivate a new way of living. To cease being selfish, self-serving, dishonest, and fearful, and to start being giving, loving, honest, and courageous.
I get it. I really do. The work seems daunting. It's like a dark tunnel. I think it will get even darker before I see any light at the end.
Any specific tips or resources for building self-worth would be appreciated. I'm working with a therapist and going to 12 step. Any other books, forums, or community members to be in touch with?
-DB
The mornings are the hardest. The empty bed. My tiny apartment in the city. We used to live at her place out by the beach. We'd wake up to the sound of waves crashing. My eyes would open, and I'd see her already awake, gazing at me with a good morning smile on her face. We'd have breakfast together and talk about what was on tap for the day.
I don't think I'll ever forgive myself for hurting her so much. I can't really comprehend how I could look so much love in the eye and do what I did. This wasn't an affair out of boredom or routine. This was simply feeling like I needed "more" to feel good about myself. More power. More adventure.
My relationship was very stable and domesticated from the outset. She was SO sweet and SO kind, but something about that made my body think it wasn't fun or electric. I'm one of those people who only feels alive when there's a controversy or tons of passion. I know I need to get over that if I'm ever going to be happy in a stable, loving relationship.
And in the meantime, I miss her like the sun. I see how worthy of my love she is. I know exactly what I lost. She was the love of my life, and as Maybell said, I took her heart out and stomped on it. The guilt of totally overwhelming. The desire to make it right with her overcomes me sometimes.
Today is 20 days of No Contact. Which feels like 20 days without eating. It's the hardest thing I've ever done.
DB
It gets easier.
Rather than getting over your need for excitement, can you channel it? The body has truth too. It's not necessarily something to master.
What are some positive ways you could use or release that energy?
I have books and businesses and dreams inside me that have never come out. I've lived with fear of failure, fear of being "found out" as a fake, fear of intimacy and commitment. I have never had that cool, calm self-confidence of the men I admire. I've PRETENDED to have it for years, and I people often believe me, but it never lasts.
You sound remarkably like my H....who also had an affair. Who claims that he loves me still. Who was unable to shut off the affair when I asked him, too.
He also feels like he's a failure, and worried about being "found out" as someone who didn't have as much experience as other men.
What makes you think that MOST people aren't faking it?
Honestly - I'm someone who feels this way in other areas of my life...My IC called it "the imposter" syndrome. I think a lot of people feel like they're going to be exposed as a fraud at any time. I call it the superiority-inferiority complex. I'm better than most folks at x, but I'm not really as good as the people around me.
I hope that you get a chance to prove yourself right to your fiancee. I will tell you that 21 years into a relationship with my H, I never in a million years would have believed you if you told me that he would hurt me on purpose. But he did. He absolutely chose to hurt me, and he chose not to stop hurting me, because he was addicted to this other broken human being. There is something so painful, so devastatingly awful, when the person you have entrusted your heart to does this to you. At one point I thought that he could make it up to me...the longer this goes, the more I wonder. I know that my view on romantic love has altered as a result of this event.
Best of luck to you on working through your issues and on restoring your relationship.
Thanks. I had broken off the affair before she found out. I have had ZERO sexual interest or interaction with anyone since we split 2.5 months ago. I wish I could say she had hopes of reconciliation, but all I've heard from her from the beginning is, "It's over, go away, leave me alone, how could I trust you again?"
I know this will stoke some resentment and push back from members of the community, but part of me gets angry and upset that she is being so black and white about the whole thing. She's the victim and I'm the perpetrator. She's spent very little energy on trying to understand ME and WHY this may have happened. I know that doesn't matter to her. She's said, "It doesn't matter WHY it happened, It matters THAT is happened." I understand that, but I also feel like if we really had a deep love that she'd want to put her anger aside and talk about it. No?
I mean, I never PURPOSEFULLY hurt her. That would imply malicious intent. My affair was a result of delusional thinking -- thinking that I NEEDED another person to feel whole, thinking I'd never get caught, thinking what you don't know can't hurt you. It was all SICK, distorted thinking. But at no point did I decide "I'm going to hurt this woman who loves me so much." Yes, that was the result of my terrible, awful decisions, and I own that, but I'd warn against ascribing ill-intent to those actions.
I know this community says to wait and let her heal. But I get so scared that the longer I wait, the further she goes away from me. I know my efforts to maintain contact have only upset her. I'm hearing the crystal clear advice from Bond, Maybell, Zeus and others. I'm just wondering how we know these tactics work? Is it from your own experience?
I'd love to learn more...
Positive ways to use or release my body energy?
I currently lead bootcamps for free for anyone who wants them. I sometimes dance and sing, but haven't done much since we split. I can barely get my self out of bed in the morning, let along go dancing. Also, I don't think I can touch a woman like that right now. I'm completely asexual.
How else would you recommending I use/harness that energy?
Sex is obviously not a good use go your energy right now.
The other things you listed are good, keep moving forward. These things take time.
Have you considered an anti-depressant?
And I know my message above about getting angry that she won't work this out with me with spark some strong responses that I "Still don't get it." I would say it's accurate that I still don't get it. And I'm aware that my emotions are a roller coaster from petulant and selfish to remorseful and compassionate.
I'm sure I will stay on the roller coaster for a while longer...
"I know this will stoke some resentment and push back from members of the community, but part of me gets angry and upset that she is being so black and white about the whole thing."
Shows you really haven't learned much. I'm sure you wouldn't think it was a big deal if she had another guy's d*ck in her, right? I mean that should be something that you could just "get over".
"She's the victim and I'm the perpetrator. She's spent very little energy on trying to understand ME and WHY this may have happened."
Weren't you the one who said that the reason why you did it was because she didn't fulfill you sexually? Oh I'm sure she understands why it happened. How would you like to be told that you weren't filling your significant other's sexual needs so they had to go somewhere else? Shame on her for not being more understanding about that.
I know that doesn't matter to her. She's said, "It doesn't matter WHY it happened, It matters THAT is happened." I understand that, but I also feel like if we really had a deep love that she'd want to put her anger aside and talk about it. No?
"I mean, I never PURPOSEFULLY hurt her. That would imply malicious intent. My affair was a result of delusional thinking -- thinking that I NEEDED another person to feel whole, thinking I'd never get caught, thinking what you don't know can't hurt you. It was all SICK, distorted thinking."
Oh I see, so because of that, she should just get over it. Your d*ck just fell into someone else. You had a choice. Period. You just chose to make the wrong one and are dealing with the consequences of that choice. You don't seem to get that despite saying you do.
"But at no point did I decide "I'm going to hurt this woman who loves me so much."
Yes you did. When you unzipped your pants.
"I know this community says to wait and let her heal. But I get so scared that the longer I wait, the further she goes away from me. I know my efforts to maintain contact have only upset her. I'm hearing the crystal clear advice from Bond, Maybell, Zeus and others. I'm just wondering how we know these tactics work? Is it from your own experience? "
What we are saying to you aren't "tactics". It's the plain truth. You messed up with your actions and have to deal with the consequences of those actions. You just don't seem to get that part of taking responsibility of your actions is dealing with the consequences with humility.
Getting angry because you feel she doesn't "get it", shows you lack that humility.
Ok, I expected that response. I'm learning in fits and starts and appreciate the tough love. I'm just grabbing at straws here. I go back and forth between self-loathing and suicidal thoughts to getting angry and petulant and wanting to try to change things.
I think back to those moments when I was with her and didn't appreciate her, and I try to unpack it... What was going on in my head? Why did I never feel "sure?" Were we really not a match? Was that my intuition speaking? Or was that my fear of commitment?
So many questions. So much to learn. So very too late to figure it out and save this relationship...
But necessary work so you don't do it again.
I wrote her a text on our anniversary. We were supposed to celebrate it at my family's rented beach house in NJ (we live in CA).
did you think SHE forgot that? I suspect she knew exactly what day it was, and how shattered HER dreams are. I think it must have hurt her so much to have to endure that day...not sure if you thought of that, b/c I think you put YOUR pain ahead of hers, again...and you need to see that to her, it may just look selfish of you. Do the "math"...
Only consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.
I still don't know exactly what your changes are, but I DO know your time line is one of a pre-teen. You have not been here long and you are wildly out of line with reality, about how many months (at least) it'll take before she can even have coffee with you.
The rush to reconcile after what she's been thru (I'm thinking it's like she has PTSD) is a bad idea for her AND you.
You need to Grow up and get a grip on yourself and stop showing her how immature you are. That's how the rush to reconcile, looks. Instead,
You want her to see a MAN who has learned a lesson the hard way; not a spoiled adolescent stomping his feet, DEMANDING that she give him another chance!
Or a guy who feels MOST SORRY for HIMSELF in this ordeal, (not her) which I kind of think you are doing....and or, a guy who cannot stop making his case.
Just Back off! Yeah, You could have written a note to her on that day, I suppose.
But NOT YOUR NOTE. You HAD to add your hopes!!! that a year from now you will be together LAUGHING about this,?? No, that was inexplicably insensitive. Sorry, but that does make it sound like you do NOT get it.
It said, "Lovely Julia, I just wanted to let you know you're in my thoughts, especially on this date. Just know that everyone here loves you and misses you. I pray that with enough hardwork, love, and faith that we can all be back here laughing together this time next year. I have enough of each for the two of us."
The ^^^ uncrossed parts would have been the MOST you could have said and even that is too much ---
But when you revealed your agenda (AGAIN), instead of just giving her something without attaching an expectation/want of yours to it, you showed your true colors, which is all about your needs.
Focus on learning empathy. Giving, not taking.
When I read your comments about how sex is best when you are able to objectify the woman, (fear of intimacy on your end) and the pattern you have of repetitive cheating, including emailing past girlfriends even after you knew how much it hurt your gf, well it isn't painting a good picture of you as a partner.
Frankly, I'm not sure what's in it for HER to be with you anyhow. I don't say that to be mean and I'm not saying it lightly.
But until you know that this trait is being dealt with, YOU are not doing her a favor by pursuing her as you are now.
If you really love her like you say, you'll go off and do the work you need to do to become the man she deserves. Right now, she deserves more than you can give.
Well, she responded with some accusations that I'm continuing to lie about unrelated stuff on FB, spinning facts to make myself look good. And it turned into a two day back and forth of her telling me to leave her alone and go away and me saying "We were so good when we we good, we have so much love and joy ahead of us...Please just tell me one thing I can do to start to rebuild trust."
STOP MAKING DEMANDS...you are not in any position to request anything of her. Do you get that? IF things were ever really good with you two, then STFU and let her remember that! Right now you keep challenging her choice to break up and the more you challenge her choices, the more you force her to defend them.
Back off. No, really. IF there is hope, it'll be by NOT Contacting her til at least 100 days have passed. Personally I'd recommend a year of serious counseling and hoping that by this Christmas, MAYBE she'll have dinner with you. OR better yet, lunch. Just to "Catch up". Let her learn to relax around you (requires you NOT pushing for more), and in time try to build on THAT.
Once she is relaxed around you (Which will take TIME during which you make NO demands or requests of her, no whining or pining for more...)
then she may realize what you two had/could again have.
AND if her biological clock is ticking, she'll be more likely to want to reconnect with YOU b/c she knows you well enough and doesn't have to "get to know" you from the very start.
Of course, this is Assuming she believes it won't happen again and THAT is her biggest fear. That she'd be a fool to take you back***.B/C the single biggest reason betrayed spouses do not take their wayward spouses back, is b/c they fear it will happen again
AND OR
that the cheater does not take seriously enough how deeply wounded the betrayed spouse is... The faster you rush her to reconcile the more it seems you don't fully appreciate the gravity of her pain...you are very focussed on YOUR pain here, but I hope that's not your focus with her.
God only knows what the letter from OW said, but if it was all detailed in its' glory, AND OR if you said you "loved" OW (or made disparaging comments about your gf which OW shared with your gf),
then it's possible that too much water has gone under the bridge.
No, SHE DOES NOT KNOW IF THIS IS THE CASE, YET So do not ask her if that is the case. Only time will reveal that.
I don't know what it said or how bad it got, but the letter from OW sounds bad.
It ended with her threatening to block my number. Totally NOT the result I was hoping for. I know I just need to leave her alone. I do need to get a grip.
So, then I don't need to point ^^^ To that, & say "Yes, you clearly do."
I'm sorry I haven't been able to act upon the great advice I've gotten from this community. I've been TOTALLY spun out for weeks. Can't eat, can't sleep, can't work. I'm falling through the cracks with anxiety and depression...
We all have been where you are in some form. We KNOW how badly you feel. We get it. Some of us were married for decades and had children, and were facing the loss of what we'd spent years building...so we DO know what it is like to obsess and do the opposite of what we needed to do.
But at those most desperate times we had to dig deep, reach inside, PRAY if you are a believer, and LISTEN to good advice (while ignoring the bad). I know that It is hard.
But you know what is harder? It's harder to keep blowing it, only to then wonder if we could have just saved it then,
but that instead we again caused a self inflicted wound on our hearts...I think that is worse, and I think that stinks when it happens.
See, it's at those times that you MUST take the advice you are getting. B/C while none of us know how to "get your gf back"--
most of us do know how you can RUIN Your chances of a recon, and that is what we are trying to warn you away from...
So LISTEN, & Man Up & Settle down, or you could wreck things for too long.
Okay?
The good news is I have friends who are supporting me and a therapist who gets me. And I connected with my father in a way last night that I don't think I ever have before. He actually held me and consoled me for the first time in my life, and he gave me encouragement that was more than "Go get 'em." So, maybe that's the gift of this whole situation.
That is a gift & it is to be treasured. Cherish that. Maybe someday, (like a year or more from now), it's something you could tell your gf that you learned FROM this experience, A LONG LONG TIME from now...
keep growing. It's the one good thing that these ordeals can provide, if we are brave and loving and are willing to CHANGE.
Thanks, 25yearsmic. I totally hear you. She actually said she'd "totally forgotten" about our anniversary. I guess we all lie a little sometimes.
I know I'm being a petulant selfish little weasel. The only reason I'm "in a rush" is I know she's hell-bent on getting married and having a kid. I'm SO freaked out she will meet someone, rebound, get hitched, and start popping out kids. She already had one rebound marriage before she met me. So, she's been known to "move on" extremely quickly, even if it's not the best situation.
At the end of the day, I understand how much this has shattered her. Her ego, her confidence, her sense of self-trust (how did she not know I was a liar?), etc. We had SO MANY good memories, and now she views them ALL as lies. I know they weren't lies. I know I was in love. And I also know I was extremely two-faced and selfish, and that I took advantage of her infinite trust and ability to assume the best.
I know I need to wait. I know I need to accept the consequences. I just don't know what to do with the CONSTANT obsession and feelings of cortisol in my system. I'm seeing a therapist and going to 12-step, but GOD this is hard. Yes, I know it's probably twice as hard for her. But she won't show me that side of her. She is the classiest, proudest lady in California. And I love her for it.
So... I just work on myself and wait. That's the solution?
Yes and no. Don't wait... Work on yourself. Live forward. You're not waiting because you're doing. Not contacting her is an action in itself. Every day you don't contact her is an action in support of her healing. Simultaneously you work on making sure you really are a changed man.
I have not commented on this thread, because as the cheatee your lack of remorse sickens me.
When I found out I had been replaced and he had been accidentally camped near her place I was vomiting from anxiety five times per day! I lost 12kg in 3-4 weeks and nearly 4 clothing sizes in less than 8 months. I thought I was going mad from the nightmares are dreams, I presented to the local hospital sobbing. They wanted to lock me in.
Vomitting For months! I did not sleep at all for 4 weeks.
He told me I was mentally ill, I was emtionally a dessert and he had to stay with ow. She was his happiness I was the cause of him almost committing sucide.
He also had no remorse or empathy. I am so emtionally injured I'm not sure I will ever be able to be with another man sexually ever again.
I think I would prefer to light myself on fire.
Ugh, I wrote a long, thoughtful reply to GGrass, and the interwebs ate it. Ggrass, thank you so much for your raw honesty. I feel extreme empathy for your situation and I'm taking it in as a possibility for just how my Ex has felt over the last few months. She puts on a pretty, strong face on FaceBook, but I know she is a wreck. I DO wish there were something proactive I could do to alleviate her pain. I'm learning here, the only thing I can do is leave her alone.
Please just know that I feel endless remorse for my actions, endless regret for how much I've hurt the woman I love. I intended for her to be the mother of my children, and my addict mind told me I needed MORE to feel good about myself. It told me she wouldn't be hurt. It told me no one would ever know. That is what we hear in our heads, and we believe it.
Now, I am in the middle of re-entry back to reality. My little space capsule is burning up and coming apart. And as I come back down to earth, I become more aware day by day just how much pain and waste my little "dalliance" has caused. I see just how much she is hurting, just how grave my actions were, just how low I had brought myself, just how much respect I have lost from my friends and family.
The greatest amends I can make to my Ex is to do the work on myself, leave her alone, and make sure I NEVER repeat this with anyone else. I will most likely stay celibate for a long time until I feel truly complete on my own.
The "lack of remorse" you all have seen from me on this site is more a function of me thinking this was a community for "getting your Ex back" and not so much an "accept she's gone" forum. I see now that when you've done what I have done, you lose your right to ask for what you need. Your only right is to accept the consequences and learn from them. That doesn't make it any easier, and that doesn't remove my OWN pain over losing her.
Yes, I feel remorse and self-loathing for how much pain I have caused, but YES, I am also feeling the pain, panic, weight-loss, and sleeplessness or the loss myself. I get to hurt too. And the natural reaction to this pain is to want her back. I may not get to ask for that, but that doesn't make me stop wanting it.
I hope that makes some sense.
DB -
This IS a site about getting back your Ex.
You'll note: there are many of us here who have been cheated upon. Like GGrass, I cried every day for MONTHS. I lost 25 lbs. in 6 weeks. I didn't sleep, couldn't eat, and was a mess; but I was still expected to get up every day and be a mom and brave the world. It was the hardest thing I have ever done and I've run 5 marathons, including one with a blister on my foot from mile 2 onwards.
All the while, my H was telling me that he had "found a new lid to his pot." I listened to him tell me that this co-worker who is 13 years our junior was a very special friend, and that she would be there for him if I ever got cancer. (SERIOUSLY - these are the fantasies these two created to rationalize their relationship.) He wanted to buy her a car, a computer, save her family vacation home. My mind was reeling with the absolute insanity of what he was explaining to me, and he simply would be flabbergasted that I didnt get it. We don't tell these stories to you to pile on the guilt, but rather to realize that your ex-fiancee is likely feeling VERY VERY battered and bruised. She should trust you again? WHY, exactly?
And the answer to that why lies within you.
Are you willing to work to become a man that she can trust again?
Are you willing to be patient with her?
Are you able to show remorse? To learn to communicate with your words and to control your actions?
You have work to do on you, and this is really necessary before you consider really trying to win her back.
So - the FIRST thing you should do is work on you. Detach from her. If she moves on, as you fear, well....that is a natural consequence of what you did.
If she doesn't, and time allows the two of you to reconnect...And for her to see that you are a changed man...And for you to allow her to be angry and fearful and confused before she forgives....
Well, then perhaps you have done the right work then on yourself.
Like Ggrass, I think I would rather light myself on fire rather than trust another man. Here I wait for my H to get through MLC....Hoping that this is better for our children. Hoping that he'll come around and realize the utter devastation that he has caused in his formerly very happy wife. I can't expect anything from him. I can only try to become happy again on my own. Only try to be a better and stronger person for myself. Will I ever trust again and know romantic love again? Time will tell.
Thank you, MLP. I honor your story and everything you're going through. I have two good friends here in the Bay Area who have undergone similar betrayals with men who have not had ANY remorse and simply moved on with their OW. I know from their stories just how deep that rupture can be.
I'm trying to begin to look at this entire experience as an opportunity for me to FINALLY learn to be the man she (or anyone) could trust. To be the man who gets affirmation from WITHIN, rather than from anything bright, shiny, and new.
I'm 2.5 months out from D-Day. Not very long, yet an eternity. And I'm FINALLY at the point where I'm ready to ask, "What is the work I need to do?" rather than "How do I get her back?"
What does it look like? What is the "the work" I do tomorrow morning? Or tonight? Or in my interactions with my clients?
Right now, it looks like this:
- Zero Coping Behaviors (aside from Facebook and LOTS of calls to my support network), so no drugs, dating, sex, porn, masturbation, or shopping, and nothing more than social drinking.
- Daily Meditation and Rituals (15 min Vipassana and reciting a "Live Honorably" thing I wrote, dedicated to be ancestors)
- Therapy 2X weekly
- 12 Step (Alanon and SAA) as often as I can go
- Daily calls with my sponsors in each program
- Support to two female friends who have been betrayed and left by their partners
Are there other practices you all recommend? Daily readings? Special retreats? I'm going full-court-press on this. I will NEVER be happy if I don't dig this out at the root. I will NEVER honor the pain I have caused this woman if I don't do the work on myself.
Should I write a blog post about the affair and post it for all the world to see? Should I come clean and apologize publicly? Should I own it and provide some resource for other men who might be thinking of straying?
What else can I do?
Thank you,
DB
Hey - those are good starts. I like your list.
You've got it written down here. Is it somewhere in your house where you can refer to it?
Addiction stinks. Sounds like you know it. Sounds like you're dealing with it. Good for you.
You're working on you. I like it a lot.
Good luck.
Jeez.. I REALLY need to stay off Facebook. I look at photos of her about 25% of the time and it just tears my heart out -- all the ways I hurt that loving and lovable woman.
Will I ever forgive myself and move on?
Start with where you are. Don't try to eat the elephant or you will crash. What you've already got is a good list.
There are many other things you COULD do, but at some point you'll feel like all you're doing is focusing on your weaknesses. Identify your strengths and beef those up too. They're just as much a part of you.
Ha. That's what my shrink said today too... "Focus on your strengths. Build from there."
Great advice. Hard when you're having a hard time seeing your own strengths, but as Maybell points out - don't try to eat the whole elephant.
I've got some journaling to do!
Seriously - good luck DB. At the very, very least, know that you're making yourself a better man, and how could that be a bad thing?
25years, if you get a chance could you please check out a new poster 2times2many? She is in a unique position and needs someone with your precise skill set to help her work through her thought process.
Thanks!
"What else can I do? "
The main thing you can do is to stop asking "what else can I do".
Thank you, MLP. I honor your story and everything you're going through. I have two good friends here in the Bay Area who have undergone similar betrayals with men who have not had ANY remorse and simply moved on with their OW. I know from their stories just how deep that rupture can be.
I'm trying to begin to look at this entire experience as an opportunity for me to FINALLY learn to be the man she (or anyone) could trust. To be the man who gets affirmation from WITHIN, rather than from anything bright, shiny, and new.
I'm 2.5 months out from D-Day. Not very long, yet an eternity. And I'm FINALLY at the point where I'm ready to ask, "What is the work I need to do?" rather than "How do I get her back?"
What does it look like? What is the "the work" I do tomorrow morning? Or tonight? Or in my interactions with my clients?
This ^^^ is a breakthrough, one which I hope you'll follow through with...
Right now, it looks like this:
- Zero Coping Behaviors (aside from Facebook and LOTS of calls to my support network), so no drugs, dating, sex, porn, masturbation, or shopping, and nothing more than social drinking.
Since I"m Not familiar with the SAA rules, I'm not sure about the reasons for all of these prohibitions. So please pardon my ignorance, but what's with "No shopping"? I mean, Are you a person who shops in a bad way? And What is it about "self service" that creates problems for you?
- Daily Meditation and Rituals (15 min Vipassana and reciting a "Live Honorably" thing I wrote, dedicated to be ancestors)
- Therapy 2X weekly
- 12 Step (Alanon and SAA) as often as I can go
- Daily calls with my sponsors in each program
- Support to two female friends who have been betrayed and left by their partners
These ^^ seem like good ideas and habits.
Are there other practices you all recommend? Daily readings? Special retreats? I'm going full-court-press on this.
YES ---for while you are not in a couple (which would then mean I'd suggest Retrovaille)
but as an individual, I highly recommend a personal growth workshop called "Essential Experience" (aka "EE") which is in Philadelphia, PA. It is an amazing LIFE CHANGING experience.
It's not to confused with other programs that have similar names, -- this one in Philadelphia is THE workshop I'm referring to. A PhD runs it, a well regarded PhD designed it with several other family therapists, and the "team" that helps, is well qualified to aid people going through it.
It's a workshop for individuals who have baggage or obstacles that are hindering them in relationships, or their careers, and or, who simply want to gain clarity in their lives, with a "plan of action" and support.
It's deep & profound and yes, life changing. I've been to 3-4 different workshops and retreats, and can say without reservation that EE is the best one out there.
Also it is in alignment with Div Busting principles.
That's mainly b/c it is solution based, NOT all about your childhood history and just rehashing the past or feeling victimized by others.
I'm a bit concerned that with your "addict's mind" you may overly label things in a way that makes it seem as if you are not responsible for your choices, and you know as we do, that you are.
Make sense?
I will NEVER be happy if I don't dig this out at the root. I will NEVER honor the pain I have caused this woman if I don't do the work on myself.
True, so don't forget to do the work...
Should I write a blog post about the affair and post it for all the world to see?
NO. When you make amends you are told NOT to make amends "When it could injure others" and that is what a PUBLIC announcement would do. It's a ploy to get rid of your guilt at HER expense. The more people who know of your cheating, the worse it is for HER (and your chances of a reconciliation EVER).
You are trying to get rid of your discomfort. You want YOUR PAIN to end...
Learn to sit with your pain awhile so you don't go off and "DO SOMETHING!!"...sometimes the best thing to do is sit on your ass, STFU & THINK.
Should I come clean and apologize publicly?
NO --- and see above for why and PLEASE post here BEFORE you do or say or write anything to her or about her or in public, Seriously....like I said, none of know for sure how to get your gf back IF it is possible but we ALL know ways you can blow your chances for good, so use us a resource BEFORE you do that, okay?.
Should I own it and provide some resource for other men who might be thinking of straying?
What else can I do?
Thank you,
DB
I think posting here about how you feel, and what you have lost, and what you are learning about yourself and life, can have value.
But that is service to others, not a tactic to "get her back" --- b/c as you say above, and I Hope you will recall it often,
it's not about getting her back, it's about You becoming a man who could deserve a woman like her coming back.
See the difference?
25yearsmlc, is it too soon in our relationship for me to say ILY? Because I do. I aspire to think like you and find myself saying, "hmmm, she'd totally call me on this right now. Ok, let's not do that."
25yearsmlc, is it too soon in our relationship for me to say ILY? Because I do. I aspire to think like you and find myself saying, "hmmm, she'd totally call me on this right now. Ok, let's not do that."
aw shucks, ain't nothing others didn't give me some years back...
So I'll see u on your thread!!
Hi all, today is my 39th birthday. The Happy Birthday wishes are pouring in over FB and text, and I'm humbled, but I also wonder what all these "friends" would think if they knew I was a cheater and a liar.
I know it probably drives my Ex crazy seeing people "love" me without all the information. I've contemplated posting something open and direct about the affair on FB so my whole world has all the information, but that feels oddly self serving.
Any advice on what is appropriate disclosure? How do I avoid my ex thinking I'm just "burying" the truth and letting people think in this awesome guy, when she experiences me as a total villain who doesn't own up to his sh1t.
DB
HOLY MOLY!!!!! She just wrote me a Happy Birthday message. What do I say?!?!?! I need some advice and wisdom on how not to F this up like every other communication we've had these last few months.
She writes:
"Hey,
I just wanted to wish you a happy birthday. I know you have been a rough time these past few months, just as I have. I hope you will be celebrating with friends or classmates. I’m heading up to Sacramento to celebrate with my dad - he turns 75 today.
I was telling myself I had let go of the things that happened with us, but surprisingly I’ve just been getting more angry about it lately. I guess I hadn’t had the time to really process it yet, given how busy I’ve been with work and school. I was in a really good place in my life when I met you... I had done so much work on myself and was ready to meet my life partner. But here I am, two years later, trying to repair and rebuild. So many steps backward. A bummer of a place to be in, to say the least.
I’m not even really sure what to say at this point, except that I do recognize that you have probably been going through a very rough time yourself and I don’t believe you ever intended to hurt me. I hope your work with Greg has helped you understand how your actions affect those around you, the people who are loving you and trusting you. I realized a while back that I couldn’t make you understand how you hurt me -- I can only hope you are able to come to that realization yourself, and will remember it before making decisions to be deceitful in the future.
I also hope that your therapy work is helping you to resolve the things that have plagued you emotionally for much of your life. I still believe you have a good heart and I hope you are able to overcome those issues and coping behaviors that prevent you from loving yourself. You have a lot to offer the world and if you can find a way to let love in, I’m sure you can achieve anything you want in life.
I hope school and work are going well for you. May the coming year bring you peace and happiness."
What do I say?!?!
Vets? What should he say?
I've got no advice....
I think it's great she reached out to you.
That said, I'd be careful of your response. Jumping back in too deeply too quickly could be bad.
I, for one, don't like to hear the words "I love you," right now. Do I want to hear them again? I do--yes....but for me it's all about actions, not words. I want to see evidence of honesty and fidelity and get to THAT place before we return to "I love you." I need time.
So - vets! Tell him what he should say!
(Happy birthday, by the way! I hope this is a great year for you!)
Say NOTHING today. Wait a day or two to thank your friends and family and send her a private BRIEF message that asks her for NOTHING.
Do you get that? You do not pounce on this! You do not seek anything for yourself. You simply thank her and say something like "I know I have a lot of work to do but I"m glad to do it, finally. Thank you for your words of support; it means a lot to me."
NO more apologizing (til much later, in person, IF & when the time is right) and do NOT make a public statement.
That's already been discussed as a BS "amends" that is self serving for YOU and will embarrass her MORE.
Don't unload at her expense, deal with your guilt without making a public show of your humility, which is not true humility anyhow.
Do you get this? Her words to you are a gift, NOT to be used for your obvious gain. Just thank her privately and drop it.
I assume her message to you was private? Then keep yours the same way.
She's NOT asking you for a public response! She is not opening the door for you to go thru it now. You can accept her words as they are written and hope they mean what she says but she has NOT said "call me" and she has NOT said she forgives you and she has NOT said "contact me and now I am thinking of taking you back"
She has simply allowed SOME good feelings and thoughts of you, to return and that is NOT something you want to stop or squash down. And those good feelings and memories resurfacing, will STOP on a dime, if you try to gain something now.
Take this as a positive movement that you do NOT BLOW...you DO what she's advising about your therapy and in a few months (like AT LEAST 3-4 months) we can help you MAYBE drop her a quick note about some insight maybe.
THEN SEE what she does with that. NOT NOW. IT's too soon. You want her to wonder about your progress and to see a CHANGE in you --which is you not pouncing on this...and then to ponder how you are evolving, which you'll address in a few months...AFTER more growth.
Do you get this?
HOLY MOLY!!!!! She just wrote me a Happy Birthday message. What do I say?!?!?! I need some advice and wisdom on how not to F this up like every other communication we've had these last few months.
Because every time she has shown an INCH of progress, you have asked for a mile, so she has pushed you away so you won't EXPECT more.
Stop making this about what YOU want and do not attach any expectations to your reply. The fastest way for you to blow this, is to try to squeeze more out of this. Do not do that.
Let her see that you took in her words without asking for something more.
Let her see a CHANGE in you, (which is what you not asking for more, would be.)
That is a 180.
She writes:
"Hey,
I just wanted to wish you a happy birthday. I know you have been a rough time these past few months, just as I have. I hope you will be celebrating with friends or classmates. I’m heading up to Sacramento to celebrate with my dad - he turns 75 today.
I was telling myself I had let go of the things that happened with us, but surprisingly I’ve just been getting more angry about it lately. I guess I hadn’t had the time to really process it yet, given how busy I’ve been with work and school. I was in a really good place in my life when I met you... I had done so much work on myself and was ready to meet my life partner. But here I am, two years later, trying to repair and rebuild. So many steps backward. A bummer of a place to be in, to say the least.
^^^This is her saying you pushed back all her personal work, and depressed the hell out of her.
I’m not even really sure what to say at this point, except that I do recognize that you have probably been going through a very rough time yourself and I don’t believe you ever intended to hurt me. I hope your work with Greg has helped you understand how your actions affect those around you, the people who are loving you and trusting you. I realized a while back that I couldn’t make you understand how you hurt me -- I can only hope you are able to come to that realization yourself, and will remember it before making decisions to be deceitful in the future.
IN TIME this^^ is the realization you will need to truly make and she will NOT believe you have made it yet no matter what you SAY now. Do not bother telling her "I get it NOW! Come back!" That is more of the same you!
But what you DO, might make her believe it later on.....IN TIME.....so be careful not to push for more. IT's crucial that you get this.
I also hope that your therapy work is helping you to resolve the things that have plagued you emotionally for much of your life. I still believe you have a good heart and I hope you are able to overcome those issues and coping behaviors that prevent you from loving yourself. You have a lot to offer the world and if you can find a way to let love in, I’m sure you can achieve anything you want in life.
that is the hope YOU have as well, but again, say nothing of this^^ NOW.
I hope school and work are going well for you. May the coming year bring you peace and happiness."
What do I say?!?!
You say nothing to her today. You reflect on what you will PRIVATELY tell her in a day or two. NO RUSH. Really, there is no reason to rush this.
You thank all your friends/peeps for their wishes and say something like how they are "the best" and that you were touched and humbled and don't go into more detail. Your friends don't want to hear a big speech anyhow.
AND Do NOT make a public apology (and read my other message to you about why you should NOT do that if you start wavering). IT's crucial you do NOT make this public. Take the advice you are getting here.
That's so important. In my opinion if you do make a grand public apology, after all the advice you have gotten NOT to do that, you will lose her forever.
btw
what did YOU think about her questions regarding how you lack coping behaviors and self love?
And what other lies is she referring to? How long were you cheating on her? I wasn't clear about that.
It was not a fling but what was it? I'm sincerely asking so I can gauge what she's thinking. and what are the things she sees as plaguing you for your whole life? What are those things?
Do you agree with her?
And most importantly, what are you doing to work on those?
What are you learning to do that is constructive or healthier, instead of whatever you used to do to cope?
That is what I'd want you to work on, for AWHILE
before I'd ever consider taking you back. So, what's up with all that?
Hiya, DB.
I wanted to chime in here as I have some experience with making sincere amends with Ms. Wonka.
This is so encouraging to see that she's opened up to you and she's clearly at a very, very vulnerable place. I am in agreement with 25 on exercising some restraint on your part. I know you want to drop down on the ground and lie prostrate at her feet.
My suggestion would be to acknowledge her HBD wishes to you and that you do appreciate her heartfelt thoughts. Then close by saying that you will be in touch later in response to her thoughts. I think this is an excellent way to open up dialogue with her on healing from your wounds together.
At a later time (a week would be good), you can respond to her as you need time to process them and treat her words with respect that they deserve.
I will need to find my apology letter to Ms. Wonka that I posted in Bea's thread over in the MLC forum back in March 2014. That sincere apology generated a good, positive and heartfelt dialogue between Ms. Wonka and I. The book isn't completely closed on this topic yet. It is still being written.
I am Not disagreeing with Wonka, but JUST so I know I'm not confusing you with another poster, DB, didn't she threaten a restraining order or something like that if you didn't leave her alone? Weren't you pursuing the crap out of her before?
What exactly happened when you chased her around or called/texted 100 times to "just say" yet another "I'm sorry"?
Now, I MAY disagree with Wonka's timing.
I fear If you try too soon to "open up dialogue", she may regret saying anything to you, which is why I'm so reluctant to advise you to make contact out of this. See, I don't believe she was trying to open up dialogue;
I think she was sending out a heartfelt olive branch that says, in effect,
"you are very screwed up, you hurt me DEEPLY, but I don't think you are evil incarnate, and I do wish you well".
She probably does have hopes you will become the man she hoped for, and she MAY have hopes that you will THEN contact her but even IF that is true,
those hopes are wrapped in & surrounded by fears of being deeply wounded again, and a sense of rage at being so unfairly hurt.
To the point where she probably fears she'll never really trust another man again, or fears that she could never get past this, with you,
plus she has to wonder why you would NOT cheat again - if you are unsatisfied with the sex life. Did she even know how you felt then?
***(BTW< did you ever tell her you were not satisfied sexually, or that you wanted to do other things?
OR are you saying the fact that your "best favorite sex" was with women you did not deeply care for, is something you want to change about yourself? ---
Btw, I think this^^ is extremely important. In the long run, if it's not addressed, I can't see how you or any woman could trust you to be faithful.
So Why not DO the work she is hoping for, rather than talking about it Again?
Why not DO IT, and THEN touch bases with her?
Won't she believe in it, a hell of a lot more if more time passes?
Since you both seem to agree that you were a bit of a chronic liar/cheat, how can she believe that you'd fix decades of that, in just a few weeks?
Isn't it more credible (and more likely true) if you work on it for months/years?
I'm not telling you to wait years
(though I wish I could advise you to wait a year. In that time I'd urge you to work your butt off on yourself, as that is what I believe you need to do.
I simply don't think it's advice you will follow).
but a week seems way too early for her to believe in any changes.
Now, if you want to say in a week's time, THAT you are working on making those changes and you have just started to dig deep, working on the things she mentioned (NOT that you have fixed them & are all better now, AND it is safe for her to see you again) but that you are just thanking her for her support, knowing you have plenty of work to do, and then leaving it at that,
-- that's another story.
Is that something you could pull off?
Is it really possible that if you see her, you will be able to keep it together and NOT pounce?
I fear that you will go in for more and blow it, b/c that is consistently what you have done so far.
I think it's best for you to maintain as much distance as you can at this time,
in order for:
1) your changes to take place; genuinely, AND
2) for your changes to sink in to last; AND
3) for anyone to believe in them being real & lasting.
Make sense?
DB,
Here is my apology letter to Ms. Wonka with the intent of making sincere amends caused my loopy MLC antics.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Ms. Wonka,
Before I begin this message, I do want to tell you that I enjoyed your birthday card. It was a very thoughtful gesture and I really do appreciate it. Also our fun-filled text exchanges are so positive and plain fun!
First of all, I want you to know that I come to you with respectful intentions and struggled with finding the right balance in reaching out to you while respecting your space and life.
I owe you an apology and do want to make sincere amends for the pain I have caused you in the last year or two of our relationship. Both of us have experienced tremendous pain, sorrow, and heartbreak as we parted ways. Please let me know how I can make amends with you. I am open to ideas and feedback. As you may agree, I would like for both of us to heal in meaningful ways. Please know that I am uncertain how to go about this and may make a few mistakes along the way.
So I thought I'd take the first step in reaching out to you. It is my hope that you are receptive to allowing the healing process begin anew between us and grant us the space to do so at our own pace in a mutually supportive way.
I am here if you wish to participate in this healing process.
Take care and be well.
Wonka
DB,
I want to caution you that the apology letter which was sent in March 2014 happened nearly after 9 years after our split. During the intervening years, we both slammed the door in our faces at various times during "reaching out" moments. Ms. Wonka was as tough and slow as a glacier and I worked very, very hard to chip away at it.
You might want to file away the apology letter later for the "right time." I do think it is important that you do acknowledge your W's email to you for it was heartfelt regardless of how 25 interpreted it.
What is important now is to distill her email to you and reflect on them for they do contain nuggets of truth for you since they are her feelings and POV. Try to see you through HER eyes and I think you might be able to gain some fresh perspective on her pain along with her fear of getting hurt by you again.
In my mind, in your situation, I think it is critical that you at least acknowledge her feelings and respond with 2 to 3 short paragraphs. Not acknowledging them would be more of the same from you in blowing off her feelings and diminishing her as a human being. No need to write War & Peace in your response trying to defend or explain yourself!
Meanwhile, use the gift of the time to reflect on your behaviors, thought patterns, and attitudes. Then make any changes that YOU want to make FOR YOURSELF. You want to get to a place where you feel better about yourself and get to a healthier place of relating with others--especially women.
It starts with you right now. The choice is up to you.
Wonka
I didn't say for him to NOT write to her. I just don't think him asking her for something, now, is appropriate.
Like you said, it was years before you sent your letter. AND in your letter you refer to mutual pain, which is likely appropriate in your situation.
But I don't see how that would apply here.
I DO think he needs to respond absolutely. (Which I wrote.)
I don't think there is substantive disagreement but I want to be clear with DB that the letter from you to your w, is a good concept,
but for DB ---word for word?---No I think the only piece should be his remorse, not any mutual reciprocal type of "we both did wrong" or "both had painful times"
b/c to ME, his girlfriend is the only aggrieved party, not DB. I don't see a lot of reciprocity.
But that's just MY OPINION which could of course be wrong.
PS
DB, I hope you did have a happy birthday! You never know...maybe It's a start...but remember that this is a marathon, not a sprint.
((( )))
Thank her, please please please please please
Do not put any pressure on her. Ever time you poke her in a personal way if she was greatly effected she will feel your thoughts.
If my h kept at me at the moment, I think I would throw up due to anxiety. I'm in a way needing him to be gone, even tho I did think we could work it out, and i wanted to go back I still have doubts.
It's 8months.
How's this:
Julia,
Thank you for reaching out. It shows the extent of your character that you were able to say this after the hell I put you through.
I do have a lot of work to do, and I'm glad to finally be doing it. Your compassion and grace mean more to me than you know.
My birthday has been great. John and I drove a van with 5 Alateens all day today and yesterday to their conference in Oregon.
Such a beautiful drive. So many stars here tonight.
All the best,
[s][/s]]How's this:
Julia,
Thank you for reaching out.
Your compassion and grace mean more to me than you know.
All the best, [/quote]
I think that, I was her it would be non confrontational, but I'm sure others will have a better idea.
25,
I think we are of the same mind in respect to DB needing to take ownership of causing W tremendous pain by his cheating. Our experiences and insights are valuable here. You know that our experiences are colored by our on filters and from what we've learned in observing other relationships in IRL from our circle of family and friends.
For DB and W, I do think it is vital that he acknowledge her perspective. Posting my apology letter to Ms. Wonka here is for DB and other DBers to file away in their minds for I've learned tremendously from others who have written to their WAS. I am not saying that DB should write the exact same letter to his W...but offer him some info that he can glean from this and tailor to his sitch.
DB,
Julia,
Thank you for reaching out. It shows the extent of your character that you were able to say this after the hell I put you through. I would be very, very careful of using the word "your character" for the implication here is that she has questionable character...she may perceive it that way! So don't go there. I wouldn't put "after the hell I put you through" for it just hallow words.
I do have a lot of work to do, and I'm glad to finally be doing it. Your compassion and grace mean more to me than you know. Ohhh..saying you're glad to be finally be doing it...sounds glib. Re-work this part.
My birthday has been great. John and I drove a van with 5 Alateens all day today and yesterday to their conference in Oregon.
Such a beautiful drive. So many stars here tonight. smile
All the best,
You might want to say somewhere in there that you will be responding to her thoughts later as you need to reflect them and tell her it deserves a thoughtful response.
DB,
Let's dissect W's letter to get some insight into her thought process and POV.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Hey,
I just wanted to wish you a happy birthday. Nice of her to acknowledge your BD. I know you have been a rough time these past few months, just as I have. I hope you will be celebrating with friends or classmates. I’m heading up to Sacramento to celebrate with my dad - he turns 75 today.
I was telling myself I had let go of the things that happened with us, but surprisingly I’ve just been getting more angry about it lately. She's processing her emotions, reflecting on some of the good and not so good memories. She's angry because she feels that her faith was seriously misplaced and angry for being too trusting with you. This is very telling!I guess I hadn’t had the time to really process it yet, given how busy I’ve been with work and school. I was in a really good place in my life when I met you... I had done so much work on myself and was ready to meet my life partner. Wow. She was ready for a life with a worthy man that included marriage and kids. But here I am, two years later, trying to repair and rebuild. So many steps backward. Her dreams and hopes were horribly dashed by your A's with the OW and insulting her by characterizing your sex life as lackluster. How can she get over this hurdle by feeling less than a woman???! A bummer of a place to be in, to say the least.
I’m not even really sure what to say at this point, except that I do recognize that you have probably been going through a very rough time yourself and I don’t believe you ever intended to hurt me. She is showing a true grace here by aknowleding that you're probably hurt too.I hope your work with Greg has helped you understand how your actions affect those around you, the people who are loving you and trusting you. This caught my eye. What did she mean by those around you. How many people have you hurt?? Is there something that you are not telling us here? I realized a while back that I couldn’t make you understand how you hurt me -- I can only hope you are able to come to that realization yourself, and will remember it before making decisions to be deceitful in the future. She's not feeling that you get her pain..this is where I feel you lack sincere empathy here based on what you've posted. Empathy! She's giving you a clue not to do any cheating EVER AGAIN. And I do hope you do take this to heart. Not only for her but FOR YOURSELF. You ever get married to a woman, you will need to learn how to be monogamous in a healthy way.
I also hope that your therapy work is helping you to resolve the things that have plagued you emotionally for much of your life. Much of your life...what is she alluding to here? I get the sense that it is just more than the OW. Are there other issues beside being love avoidant? There's a great book on that topic. Google it. I still believe you have a good heart and I hope you are able to overcome those issues and coping behaviors that prevent you from loving yourself. She's nailed it pretty good here. If you truly love and respect yourself, then it all emanates outward to friends and family.You have a lot to offer the world and if you can find a way to let love in, I’m sure you can achieve anything you want in life. Whoa! She's giving you a peek in her perspective of what her ideal H would be. If you can figure a way to be emotionally, physically, and sexually intimate in a healthy way...she's all for it. File this away, DB.
I hope school and work are going well for you. May the coming year bring you peace and happiness."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I do see a lot of positives here and do feel that you two can reconcile if you CAN show her genuine and sincere empathy for her pain. Coupled with your work on intimacy issues....then there's a possibility for a reconciliation.
The one thing that mostly concerns me is that this woman is the third person you'be been engaged to since the last time you dropped out of this DB site. This says a lot right there about you, your view of women, and how you interact with a woman who potentially could be your wife.
Here's some tips on proper validation.
Validation: Cheat Sheet
Ok, I'm think something with a LITTLE more validation of a few things she brought up. I want her to know she was heard. I think being TOO brief night make her think I didn't take all her vulnerability to heart.
-----
Julia,
Thank you for this. I know you've had just as rough a time as me these last few months (probably worse), so it means a lot that you were able to reach out.
You're right...I do have a lot of work to do, and your compassion and grace mean more to me than you know. I'm making a purposeful effort to understand just how this has affected you by talking to a numerous women who have been betrayed, and my work with Greg is paying off. But I know I have more to do.
My birthday was great, thanks. John and I drove a van with 5 teens all day Thurs and Fri to their conference in Oregon. Such a beautiful drive. So great to get some fresh air.
Best,
E
I know you've had just as rough a time as me these last few months (probably worse),
I would recommend re-reading what 25 and Wonka have expressed to you, and then re-read this, and then think about how it will sound from your fiancee's perspective, and then think about how to rephrase it.
That is the kindest way I could come up with to respond to this.
Julia,
Thank you for this. I know you've had just as rough a time as me these last few months (probably worse), so it means a lot that you were able to reach out.
why don't you tell her that it was a courageous thing for her to do to open up to you and that you appreciate it?You're right...I do have a lot of work to do, and your compassion and grace mean more to me than you know. I'm making a purposeful effort to understand just how this has affected you
by talking to a numerous women who have been betrayed, and my work with Greg is paying off. But I know I have more to do.
why would you tell her about numerous women?!! she does not need to hear this at all for it would justify in her mind that she's made the right decision since you've been a serial cheater. BTW, your work is not "paying off" for they are just empty words. You've not said one jot about her pain. Why not? Acknowledge it...not dancing around it. My birthday was great, thanks. John and I drove a van with 5 teens all day Thurs and Fri to their conference in Oregon. Such a beautiful drive. So great to get some fresh air.
Best,
E
If you want to use the proper validation tools, it is right there for you....take another look at her email and you will be able to see how you can achieve it.
Rework it some more, buddy. You're getting closer to the final one.
Ok, take 3:
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Julia,
Thank you for this. It's really courageous that you were able to reach out after the rough time you've had.
You're right...I do have a lot of work to do, and your compassion and grace mean more to me than you know. I'm making a purposeful effort to understand just how this has affected you. But I know I have a lot more work to do.
My birthday was peaceful, thanks. John and I drove a van with 5 teens all day Thurs and Fri to their conference in Oregon. Such a beautiful drive. So great to get some fresh air.
Best,
E
Feedback on above? 25, Bond, maybell?
Ok, I'm think something with a LITTLE more validation of a few things she brought up. I want her to know she was heard. I think being TOO brief night make her think I didn't take all her vulnerability to heart.
-----
Julia,
Thank you for this.
I know you've had just as rough a time as me these last few months (probably worse), so it means a lot that you were able to reach out.
Do NOT compare your pain to hers. Period.You're right...I do have a lot of work to do, and your compassion and grace mean more to me than you know. I'm making a purposeful effort to understand just how this has affected you
by talking to a numerous women who have been betrayed,
do NOT mention talking to other women. Really.
and my work with Greg is
STARTING paying off. But I know I have more to do.
My birthday was great, thanks. John and I drove a van with 5 teens all day Thurs and Fri to their conference in Oregon. Such a beautiful drive. So great to get some fresh air.
Best,
E
that's my .02
Oops, I had not seen this version
Ok, take 3:
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Julia,
Thank you for this. It's really courageous that you were able to reach out after the rough time you've had.
You're right...I do have a lot of work to do, and your compassion and grace mean more to me than you know. I'm making a purposeful effort to understand just how this has affected you. But I know I have a lot more work to do.
My birthday was peaceful, thanks. John and I drove a van with 5 teens all day Thurs and Fri to their conference in Oregon. Such a beautiful drive. So great to get some fresh air.
Best,
E
Looks good to me.
DB,
Julia,
Thank you for this. It's really courageous that you were able to reach out after the rough time you've had.
You're right...I do have a lot of work to do, and your compassion and grace mean more to me than you know. I'm making a purposeful effort to understand just how this has affected you. But I know I have a lot more work to do.
My birthday was peaceful, thanks. John and I drove a van with 5 teens all day Thurs and Fri to their conference in Oregon. Such a beautiful drive. So great to get some fresh air.
Best,
EThis is a much better one...wouldn't you agree?!
It is good to go.
what he said ^^^^
Ok, it's off. Thank you all for your support. Now I have to let go of the result and get back to work.
Sigh.
No, different Fiancee. The one from a few years ago is now engaged to someone else, and I'm happy for her.
The reason I think we can get through it is because our sex is GOOD often, it just hasn't been as good as it was with OW. But I can't ever have an affair again -- it completely degraded my self worth. I got more and more depressed the longer it went on.
My fiancee is the kindest, sweetest, most loving and nurturing woman I've ever met. I am DEEPLY remorseful. And she won't have anything to do with me at this point.
With your current fiancée you weren't sexless?
How much better was the sex with OW than the fiancée and why do you think it was like that?
DB, I'm sorry I didn't weigh in sooner, i was traveling. You got perfect advice. I'm glad you heard from her.
Ok, I'm freaking out a little. She's said over and over these last few months that every time I communicate with her, it's "all about me." Was that message too much about me and my process? Should I have shown more understanding of what she's been through?
I hate second guessing, but I'm so worried about misteps and making things worse.
DB,
Calm down. Your response was short and good. A lot of newbies make the mistake of making their responses long and making counterpoints to each section. Now is not the time to do so.
There will be opportunities to show empathy to her pain and show her how you have changed. Give this process time. Rome wasn't built in a day. Please keep this in mind that DBing is a marathon, not a sprint.
You're doing really good and keep coming here to gain support, feedback, and input.
Ok you're right. The point is to heal and change FOR ME, not just to get her back. If I put in my best effort, unselfishly, and it still doesn't work out, I just have to live with the consequence of my actions.
Ok you're right. The point is to heal and change FOR ME, not just to get her back. If I put in my best effort, unselfishly, and it still doesn't work out, I just have to live with the consequence of my actions.
True. You do your darned best to become YOUR best self.
When you know with certainty that you've truly done this, and become the best DB you can be, then you have to turn it over to God and leave the results up to him.
Otherwise this sort of becomes about you obsessing and not processing or learning a thing about patience.
IT becomes about you NOT hearing her, not getting your way NOW, and being a bit too "young" (immature) and self absorbed.
Okay?
So again, Leave the results up to God, keep doing your true best, learn some real patience, and then go in peace.
DB, you're in good hands here, but it's nice to see what looks like self-awareness beginning to bloom. Keep moving in that direction. Good job.
Hi all,
I'm trying to get back to focusing on myself and letting go of the results of our little email exchange this weekend. I'm REALLY GLAD I didn't pounce on her and try to CONVINCE her of anything. That does show a little growth (or at least an ability to ask for help and get great advice).
In rereading her email, I'm not sure how much it is a reaching out as an olive branch, and how much it's seeking finality and closure. I'm so concerned it's the latter. My worry consumes me. She's so "sane and classy" (and proud and stubborn) I could see her simply wanting to leave things on a higher note because she had been so angry the last time we communicated a month ago.
Is it silly to maintain hope?
She had said this:
"I was in a really good place in my life when I met you... I had done so much work on myself and was ready to meet my life partner. But here I am, two years later, trying to repair and rebuild. So many steps backward. A bummer of a place to be in, to say the least."
Should I address this directly at some point? Is this a request for additional apologies?
Also, this is the "Can I trust you again?" statement:
"I realized a while back that I couldn’t make you understand how you hurt me -- I can only hope you are able to come to that realization yourself, and will remember it before making decisions to be deceitful in the future."
Do I do more to address that in a week or two?
DB
DB,
Shush! Leave it alone. Let me share my experience with Ms. Wonka to give you some insights on how to DB properly with duct tape and the Wonka Bobcat special for patience.
We split up back in 2004 due to a crazy mixture of my MLC and Ms. Wonka seeking out OW in response to her own pain from my BD & all that crazy MLC jazz. When she first moved out, I did all the wrong things, which were all pre-DBing, by writing her a long letter...blah blah. Then it took about 4 months of chipping away at her glacier before I got a response from Ms. Wonka (that was after finding DR book and this site).
During the intervening years since then, we've texted wishing each other HBD which was pretty much the extent of our communications. Mind you, we both have slammed the door on each other at various times too with years worth of silence. Things changed when my beloved father died in the Fall of 2012 and we had our FIRST phone call in 8 years two months after he passed away.
Then we texted each other Merry Christmas and HBD exchanges. After getting some excellent feedback from some really, really wonderful people over in MLC on how to make sincere amends, I sent an apology letter to Ms. Wonka just this past March 2014. We had our first semi-deep conversation through texting that lasted about 1 to 2 weeks. Then that was the last of our convo.
The main point I am trying to drive here is that you MUST cultivate patience on your part out of respect for W and her deep wounds inflicted by your very selfish actions. For you, this will be months, months long process between you and W.
You are now being antsy pantsy after getting the email from your W and you want to grab a MILE out of it. Not good. Turn the focus BACK TO YOU and continue working on being a better man that is reliable, dependable, healthy and monogamous.
Can you do this?
Is it silly to maintain hope?
Honey, it isn't silly at all. We all need hope to help us move along forward. Without it, what would be the point?
Yeah, I'm still kinda freaking out. I'm not sure what I wrote was validating enough. She needs to feel seen and heard by my messages, right? I'm not sure I validated her anger and confusion enough. How do I help her feel fully heard and understood again?
I know...Patience. But, still... Not being heard was a major complaint of hers about me.
DB, you need to calm down. Marathon, remember?
Think about what you just said... Not being heard was one of her major complaints about you. Now, consider ALL your actions in the last 2-3 months.
What evidence have you given that you do hear her now?
What can you do going forward to show you hear her now?
Your opportunities will be few for a while. Practice really listening to others and see what you learn.
I'm glad you had that good exchange. Bask in it a bit. You're getting great advice here.
"She's so "sane and classy" (and proud and stubborn)"
Again this shows that you haven't learned anything. It's not "stubborn" of her to not want to be with someone who cheated on her. From your attitude, I don't think you would have been "forgiving" of her if she cheated on you.
"Not being heard was a major complaint of hers about me."
And you're still not listening. She wants to be alone but you won't let her.
BTW, you have to start a new thread.
Yes, I remember it's a marathon. I also know I don't have YEARS to work this out. I'm just so used to messing things up that I get a little paranoid when I do ANYTHING. Well, anything related to this woman. I'm having vivid dreams about her, and I'm paranoid about her "timeline" to get married and have kids. I know this is "Selfish DBinSF" talking, but it's hard to deny what I'm feeling.
I just want to make sure I am hearing her and validating her in every interaction we have. I want her to smile and say, "Wow, it feels good to be validated and heard at last."
I know you all know what I mean. I'd love to see her shine again.
I have to start a new thread?
"I also know I don't have YEARS to work this out."
Why not? If you love her so much, then there is no timeline.
"I just want to make sure I am hearing her and validating her in every interaction we have. I want her to smile and say, "Wow, it feels good to be validated and heard at last. I know you all know what I mean. I'd love to see her shine again.""
What do you mean ""I" want to make sure" and ""I" want her to smile..." and ""I'd love to see her shine again"?
You're just thinking again about what YOU want and not her.
Hmmmmm... She's TOLD me she wants to be heard and validated by me. And EVERYONE wants to shine. These are universal things, no?
She said in her birthday message that she hopes I come to understand how much this has hurt her. Does it not make sense to honor that and validate it?
I'm not getting what I'm missing here. I'm a little dense -- as you all know.
DB,
You don't want to come onto W gangbusters and smothering her with YOUR emotions, YOUR words, and YOUR pain. Shut it. Leave it be for it is a natural flow that should occur organically...not forced.
This is a genuine show of respect for W by giving her space to process her emotions and pain. Trust me...there will be a time for you to show intent to make sincere amends with W. Now is not the time because she's very, very emotionally raw with having her dreams dashed, feeling less than a woman because YOU aren't satisfied with her sexually, and discovering that the man of her dreams cannot be trusted at all.
How's that working for you?
Back off. Work on YOU. What are your plans for this week/weekend?
This werk I am flying to Philly for my MBA classes. This weekend I was in Oregon for a teen conference with Alanon/Alateen.
And in the mean time I'm trying not to spin out about her
Maybell, you asked "What can you do to show you hear her now!"
That's exactly what I'm asking here. She said so many things in that message that I didn't address. I didn't "hold" her in anyway. I didn't "honor" or recognize her pain. Shouldn't I have done that? Isn't that doing something to show her I hear her?
Edward
Ok, I'm not sending this, but I need to park it somewhere. If I do send it at some point, this would be the 1-2 week later message Wonka suggested. If anyone wants to pick it apart as a learning exercise, I'd be open to (and grateful for) that:
=========================
Julia,
I'm back from my whirlwind long weekend to Oregon. I so wish I had that program when I was a teen. Some of them are so wise and self aware at such a tender, young age. Sigh...
I wanted to respond to your extremely vulnerable and open note with more thoughtfulness now that I've had more time to think about it. First, I wanted to thank you for your ability to have so much compassion and generosity. You never cease to amaze me with your willingness to show up, have empathy, and let go of your anger.
Second, I just wanted to say that I hear and honor the pain and confusion you've been through these last few months, and I take full responsibility for it. I apologize both for my actions during our relationship, and for my selfish inability to let go and leave you alone in the months after our break-up. I know this isn't the place you wanted to be in, and I'm very, very sorry.
Just remember you are the most wonderful woman I've every known, and I'm sure you will be happy, joyous, and free again once you are through this.
Warmly,
And in the meantime, I'm sticking with my meditation program, hosting a men's group meeting tonight at my house, and calling my sponsor tonight and Thursday morning.
This werk I am flying to Philly for my MBA classes. This weekend I was in Oregon for a teen conference with Alanon/Alateen.
And in the mean time I'm trying not to spin out about her
While you are in Philly, look up the personal growth workshop called "Essential Experience" I told you about earlier. (In fact it's this weekend, which is pretty ironic).
And as for spinning, YOU ARE NOW SPINNING - so just stop it. You keep saying you want her to feel validated and heard, and she did, with your brief, to the point note. Now back off b/c
she also threatened to get a restraining order on you if you didn't stop harassing her. Don't take her one gesture towards you, and then stomp on it with your frantic need for more.
With your brief answer to her, which acknowledged her feelings and did not argue FOR more for yourself,
you are letting her feel safe in reaching out.
If you pounce on it (as you are now threatening,) you'll blow it again. You send her running back to her cave.
DB, learn to Back off and STFU. I think it's going to help you more than anything else
at this time.Hang in there and STOP assuming it's either something to pounce on -- OR the death knell of the Relationship.
It's not a black and white thing; but you could make it that way if you keep spinning. Get off the merry go round now, okay?
Back off and put some trust in the love you two once had. If it was real on both ends, and if you back off, those memories will resurface so back off, STFU and try trusting your perceptions of what you had.
Let that grow back, recover, heal some....and we'll help you if and when you get a real chance for more with her. BUT NOW IS NOT THAT TIME.
No one here is advising you to reach out more. We are all in agreement so trust that, okay?
Got it?
Try answering some of the many questions you've been asked please. Those questions are for your benefit. But they take time, so do us the honor of answering them, alright? I promise you will get something out of that.
here are some reasons why you should NOT send this ANY TIME SOON (meaning not in the next 30-90 days) at least 30, but I'd prefer 90...
Ok, I'm not sending this, but I need to park it somewhere. If I do send it at some point, this would be the 1-2 week later message Wonka suggested. If anyone wants to pick it apart as a learning exercise, I'd be open to (and grateful for) that:
=========================
Julia,
I'm back from my whirlwind long weekend to Oregon. I so wish I had that program when I was a teen. Some of them are so wise and self aware at such a tender, young age. Sigh...
Lose the "Sigh" b/c it's too transparently about YOU and how IF you had that program you would not have hurt her or whatever...self serving.
I wanted to respond to your extremely vulnerable and open note with more thoughtfulness now that I've had more time to think about it. First, I wanted to thank you for your ability to have so much compassion and generosity. You never cease to amaze me with your willingness to show up, have empathy, and let go of your anger.
she did NOT say she has let it go so do not assume that she has. Even if she wants to, it's not linear and she has every right to still feel angry. Make NO assumptions about her emotions.
Second, I just wanted to say that I hear and honor and acknowledge the pain and confusion you've been through these last few months, and I take full responsibility for it.
too cliched. Say something more original like maybe "for which I am the cause"
I apologize both for my actions during our relationship, and for my selfish inability to let go and leave you alone in the months after our break-up. I know this isn't the place you wanted to be in, and I'm very, very sorry.
Note that this^^ letter might well be the exact thing she does not want, in other words it is again, YOU not leaving her alone.
Just remember you are the most wonderful woman I've every known, a wonderful woman, who deserves to and I'm sure you will be happy, joyous, and free again once you are through this.
Warmly,
You wish the best for her, but make no more mention of her present pain, b/c you are not in a position to judge it or comment upon it.
Too risky b/c you will either minimize it which is self serving, OR make it "so big" b/c it's all about her losing YOU and that makes it seem as if you believe she lost a great catch.
End it on a note that compliments her without asking for anything.
But frankly, you have already done that - so to me, this note is just more of what you said earlier and does NOT add anything to your previously sent note.
I still say, even more emphatically, to leave her alone and STFU
b/c in the final analysis, this really is all about you wanting more from her sooner. How is that different behavior? .
DB,
25 has summarized nicely what you need to do the most right now: Back off and STFU.
It so happens that I operate a nice distribution center that distributes STFU cases at various strategic points in the US and abroad. Yeah, I charge licensing fees to local agents. Hey, I figured out a way to make money on the STFU stuff!
Oh and it comes in only 3 flavors:
-Duh-oh! (pure licorice flavor)
-WTF! (vomit flavor)
-Fubar! (booger flavor)
Enjoy!
P.S. I thought this would bring up some fond boyhood memories for ya.
"That's exactly what I'm asking here. She said so many things in that message that I didn't address. I didn't "hold" her in anyway. I didn't "honor" or recognize her pain. Shouldn't I have done that? Isn't that doing something to show her I hear her?"
How did you not address any of her complaints? You did.
You don't seem to know how to back off and leave her alone.
BTW, you NEED to start a new thread or this one will lock soon. It's hit the limit of posts.
Ok. Should I start a new thread in "Affairs?"