Last thread was over the limit:
(thread here) I haven't been around this board in a couple of days - staying busy on the weekend helps! I realized I was kind of obsessively checking it (we're talking on the bus to work, throughout the day at work, on the bus home from work, etc.) and doing so meant I was dwelling more on my situation and H, less on myself and making my life the best it can be! I'm vowing as of right now to no longer check during the workday.
I spent Sat. night overnight at my sister's - first time I wasn't in the house overnight since this all began. It was really refreshing to not have H around or wonder about him. Thoughts about him came up, of course (we were watching the Badgers play and sports things just remind me of him) but I was able to let them go quickly and not think about him as much. It helped confirm that I could be just fine on my own without H in my day-to-day life.
I've been thinking more about moving and next time in IC I want to talk more about the pros/cons and the emotions and fears I have regarding that. I told H yesterday "I've been thinking more seriously about moving out. If I were to do that, would you be willing to sign in writing that you will pay the mortgage in full and all the bills for the house once I move out, and that I am entitled to half of the equity as of the date I move out?" He said "yes, of course." I said "OK, that makes me feel better. I want to make sure I'm covered financially" ... to which he replied "well yeah, why would I do anything else?" Well, you also promised me you'd be with me for the rest of my life and you aren't following through on that so.. why should I trust you to follow through on a financial deal (I didn't say that part outloud!)
After that convo H's behavior got really strange. Offering to get me a drink from the Coke freestyle machine when he went to get food ("I have this coupon for a free drink, and I don't need it, but thought you'd want one 'cause you like the machines?"), talking about setting up this TV we bought on Black Friday but never set up because we put it "on hold" not knowing what was going to happen with us or the house, wishing me well visiting my sister, telling me I should call him if anything happens w/ my car (it's kinda junky so it wouldn't be unusual!) on my way to my sister's 'cause he'd come pick me up. I noted my sister didn't have HD TV so the game wouldn't be as good to watch.. he said "you could have invited her here!" Me: "I'd rather watch with someone who wants to watch it with me.." H: "I never said I didn't?" Me: "I'll rephrase: I'd rather hang out with someone during it that actually wants to spend time with me." No answer to that one.
When I was gone he made multiple facebook posts commentating on the Badger game.. this is someone who posts on facebook maybe once every two months. My sister noted that she posts more when she's lonely... so perhaps he was lonely. When I got back, comments to me about the game, about cleaning up the yard for spring, about the cat, showed me a picture of the cat being cute yesterday, etc. A lot of talking especially after what I said to him about moving out. Interesting, I guess?
Kgirl
Looks like you have changed the interaction and peeked his interest. Good job. It is nice to have them come back if only for just a little. I am in same boat as you living under same roof. Some moments I am holding on for my girls d7 and d5. My h is in mlc, so I have a very long road ahead.
Thanks for the encouragement and showing me it can be done
Thanks, tld. It's hard to know if this means anything or it's just him "being friends.".. especially considering a week ago he told me his feelings have not changed since December, in terms of "probably" wanting a divorce.
The relationship conversation was actually really helpful - it solidified the idea that there really isn't anything I CAN do about H's indecision at this point in terms of convincing him or trying to "make" him see things differently. And, reminded me that I really don't want this type of person in my life right now and therefore I shouldn't consume so much time thinking about him. I've been snoop-free for almost a week and while I do sometimes wonder what my H is up to, it's not nearly as bad as when I'd find something and ruminate on it endlessly or be constantly checking his internet history/phone/coat pockets/briefcase. It's taken the focus off of him and on me. I also feel better having set some boundaries (no running errands together, I will not cook meals for him or pick things up for him). The thing that made me think more seriously about moving was actually buying groceries this weekend and putting my initials on them so he'd know they were mine and not eat them.. I mean, it's just crazy. Why am I having to initial my food? I'm not ready to move out tomorrow but knowing that I CAN as opposed to feeling stuck because DBing says "always stay in the house" just feels better, like I have choices.
People on here say that it's when the LBS really lets go that things change. I don't know that I've fully let go, but things are changing for me, and there's interesting behavior from H...
Today as I was walking up sidewalk coming home from work, he OPENED the front door for me. Before DB when I was having trouble extracting my keys from all my junk, I'd ring the doorbell and he'd come answer it. But he'd never watch for me and have it open for me. Curious.
Then, we had a confrontation about this pie. So I made a pie this weekend to take to my sister's and brought the leftovers home. I know I shouldn't eat half a banoffee pie by myself so I told H he was welcome to have TWO slices. Before I left today for the gym he said "I just might have to eat ALL the pie that's left.. we'll see what's left when you get home." I said "No, you can have two slices. That's it." He kept talking about the d*mn pie so finally I said, calmly, "I'd be happy to make pies and share them with someone who wanted to be my husband or partner. But right now, that's not you." :S I think that's against the DB rules.. but honestly.. he keeps pulling stuff like this like he can do whatever he wants. He just gave me a goofy look but then stopped talking about the pie, at least. Even if it wasn't the "correct" way to handle it, probably better than a few months ago where I'd give in to ANYTHING he asked in hopes that he'd like me more or want to work on things. No more!!
KGirl - How strange to be initialing your food in your own house! I get why, but I also get that it has to make you feel pretty uncomfortable. Other than the confrontation about the pie, you seem more at peace. Good work!
KGirl, slow down. Do you see how much you're pressuring/guilting him?
What is he pulling?
You're doing a lot of mind-reading and that makes you think he's pulling something. It's all about interpretation.
Step back, create your life. If he wants to be a part of it, he will be.
Bug, here is where I struggle - I don't feel like I can live my own life if we continue to live together. In order to move, I have to have some answers about the logistics. I could have just made plans, never said anything, and then one day said "H, I'm moving in a month, and I will not pay any of the mortgage, by the way" but that doesn't sound appropriate to spring on someone. I will take suggestions, really! I don't want to be pressuring but logistical and financial things need to be addressed, as well as boundaries set (like, I'm not preparing you food under these conditions).
I should have been clearer, I haven't been here in several days and was reading it all at once and responding all at once.
I think the money talk was a good move for you. Now write it up and get him to sign.
The pressuring I referred to was here:
I noted my sister didn't have HD TV so the game wouldn't be as good to watch.. he said "you could have invited her here!" Me: "I'd rather watch with someone who wants to watch it with me.." H: "I never said I didn't?" Me: "I'll rephrase: I'd rather hang out with someone during it that actually wants to spend time with me."
and here,
"I'd be happy to make pies and share them with someone who wanted to be my husband or partner. But right now, that's not you."
What message were you trying to send?
I understand. Not my finest moments there, I agree. What I was thinking was "There are consequences to your actions! You don't get to have my company or benefit from me when you want to divorce me!" I know people say over and over on here that I shouldn't do that, life will provide its own consequences for H, I guess I wanted to make it clear for him. Sigh. What I SHOULD be doing is not engaging in stuff like this and just ignoring it or making it clear through my actions, right? Or just get on moving so we don't have to interact about these types of things. With no kids there would be few reasons to talk or text. Gives him and me plenty of space to figure things out without the influence of the other person.
What I SHOULD be doing is not engaging in stuff like this and just ignoring it or making it clear through my actions, right?
Yes.
Let go.
Have you read Tori's threads? Her story reminds me of yours.
See what you think
Tori's Journey
Thank you! Working on reading it right now while I digest the pizza buffet dinner I just ate. I went to dinner by myself and was fine...enjoyed it, even! And yesterday I went to a movie again by myself and chatted with the bartender beforehand (movie theaters with bars in them are great)... I can handle this "alone" thing. I really can. Before I forget, I just read this particular part and it really stuck out for me:
"My coach is amazing, by the way. Yesterday she asked me, what kind of financial question do you have for him? I said, "well, I want to tell him that he needs to lower his 401K contribution." She stopped me right there. "That's a wife! You want to collaborate. Tell him the situation and ask him what he thinks so he feels important." I never realized I was doing this. I was always the organizer, the one who knew how to handle things, and became a motherly figure. And I didn't realize I was still doing it! Go figure.
The coach told me is clear my H cares about me and is drawn to me, but he also wants to prove he is in control. He wants to prove he made a decision and he's carrying it through. "
Big deja vu there. So similar to what my H told me when we talked recently.. that he had made a decision and if he were to change it now, it would be like I "won" or "manipulated" him into doing it. Who knows what that means though. It could mean that if I work really hard to let go and leave him be, that then he'd change his mind "on his own" and it'd be OK.. or it could just mean that he won't change his mind because he needs to prove he can make a decision and stick with it no matter what I do. Either way, I just need to accept this is his decision at this point in time, and protect myself from getting too drawn in to his nice behavior. People tend to want the opposite of what they have, and sometimes I wish he did do something unforgivable or was really awful towards me so it'd be easier to not like him.
Went to IC this morning. 7:00am is a rough time to do that and then go to work. Work has just been so busy lately I can't find time during it to squeeze it in or leave early. Some questions I'm still pondering after that, advice/thoughts welcome, please:
-Earlier I had posted that the last time H and I talked about "us", he said he wanted to go to IC to help him figure out what to do. I had told my IC about it last time we met, and today he asked if H had started or set anything up. I said I didn't know because I didn't ask and then he wrote something in his notes... hmm. Should I ask H about it or no? We never discussed anything like "will you let me know when you start?"
-Where is the line between "People make mistakes, it's good to forgive them and move on and not hold it over their heads" vs. "When people make a LOT of mistakes, you should keep that pattern in mind and protect yourself in the future.. or maybe never forgive them/not have them in your life so you don't get hurt?" I struggle with this. It's hard for me to know if I'm overreacting re: past things with H, or if I should heed it as a warning going forward. H has always told me in the past I need to forgive and forget things he's done, that they're not a big deal. I don't know if my thoughts and feelings are valid or over the top.
-If I move out, am I just continuing the pattern of "fixing" or taking care of things for H by initiating things (in this case, "taking care of" separating/D-related actions)? Does staying break that pattern? Or does it make no difference?
I think you moving out falls in the category of YOU taking care of YOU.
KGirl ,
I agree with Artsy. I will also say that some folks love to talk about " planning to go to therapy." Many of those same folks (I don't want to make a broad sweeping generalization) never go because they don't want to face their issues. Why? Because a) they don't like the idea of having issues (even though we all do ) B) they struggle with being honest which is key in getting benefits of therapy and C) they are unwilling to put in the work on themselves. I'm not saying your h is any of those.
I'm a fixer too. I will no longer do that. Nope. Nada. It's a waste of energy because we can only fix ourselves. You know that too. When it comes to forgiveness, that is for you. I do feel it isn't healthy to carry around anger and animosity. However , forgiveness is a process and you need to feel all of your emotions. Don't push those down.
Keep focusing on you. Only your h can fix himself.
Went to IC this morning. 7:00am is a rough time to do that and then go to work. Work has just been so busy lately I can't find time during it to squeeze it in or leave early. Some questions I'm still pondering after that, advice/thoughts welcome, please:
-Earlier I had posted that the last time H and I talked about "us", he said he wanted to go to IC to help him figure out what to do. I had told my IC about it last time we met, and today he asked if H had started or set anything up. I said I didn't know because I didn't ask and then he wrote something in his notes... hmm. Should I ask H about it or no? We never discussed anything like "will you let me know when you start?"
-Where is the line between "People make mistakes, it's good to forgive them and move on and not hold it over their heads" vs. "When people make a LOT of mistakes, you should keep that pattern in mind and protect yourself in the future.. or maybe never forgive them/not have them in your life so you don't get hurt?" I struggle with this. It's hard for me to know if I'm overreacting re: past things with H, or if I should heed it as a warning going forward. H has always told me in the past I need to forgive and forget things he's done, that they're not a big deal. I don't know if my thoughts and feelings are valid or over the top.
-If I move out, am I just continuing the pattern of "fixing" or taking care of things for H by initiating things (in this case, "taking care of" separating/D-related actions)? Does staying break that pattern? Or does it make no difference?
I join the chorus, but with a lightly different tune, he's not yours to fix, never was, never will be. He will either change or he won't and it really has nothing to do with you.
Whether or not H goes to IC is his problem. If he had started and wanted you to know, he would tell you.
You're working really hard to find YOU, stay on that path. Your H is in your life for a reason and maybe you unearthing you is that reason. I still see a lot of fear in you.
Why do you think that is?
There are certainly a lot of things I'm afraid of/scared of. So, here goes digging into that...the bold points are the first things that pop into my head, the rest is thinking about what it ACTUALLY is behind that thought that is uncomfortable or upsetting.
1. I'm scared that if I move out, it's the beginning of the end. It will lead H to D and there'll be no chance of getting back together.
What is it I'm REALLY afraid of? What is scary?
-H will realize he is in fact happier without me and I don't want him to think that.
-I will be the one who made the D happen and I don't like that
If H is happier without me, that really isn't my concern, and better to figure that out than stay here trying to manipulate the situation. And the second point I know logically isn't true, even though my feelings feel differently.
2. I'm scared that if I move out, H will come around and we'll work things out in a few months, and now we have to pay a mortgage AND an apartment
What am I really afraid of?
-The cost. I guess that's still valid though we could find a subleaser. And wouldn't it be worth it if that was the end result - that things worked out?
-I'll be really angry at H that he put me through all of this just to change his mind. I'm fearful of never being able to trust him again, or trying to but holding it over his head indefinitely. Or that it will make me so angry I'll just say no, I'm done, I went through this effort to separate myself and I'm too embarrassed or stubborn or who knows what to go back on it. I guess I have control over how I feel, and who knows how I may feel months from now.
-He will date someone else and then want to come back, and I don't know how or if I'd be able to cope with that, particularly if I didn't date or sleep with anyone. Even if he says he hasn't, I don't know that I'd be able to believe him. Since we are each other's only adult relationship and only physical partners, the idea just crushes me. Like my H said.. in some ways the history makes it easier.. but in other ways harder. Dating someone else, though, who has been with other people in some way seems easier.. I guess because they came into my life after that point, rather than before.
3. I fear being alone/divorce in general
What am I really afraid of?
-New things. It's safer and more familiar to be with someone I've known for so long/most of my adult life, than to start over.
-Failure. Like I failed in keeping this marriage together - it didn't even make it 3 years. But logically I know this isn't about me or my lack of effort or commitment.
-Disappointment and disappointing others. I feel bad for all the friends/family who bought us wedding gifts, planned the wedding, helped us move, and bought stuff for our house. I feel like they wasted their time and energy on us and it makes me sad. I'm sure they do not feel that way (in fact, people have TOLD me they do not feel that way) but I still feel that sadness. And I know it should NOT factor into any decisions or actions I take, logically.
-That I made a poor choice and distrust my judgment about such choices in the future. Some of this stuff I've always known about H. I just thought he would grow out of it or be different as he got older. Poor assumption to make on my part.
Grr, wish we could edit! Forgot a key piece under point #1:
-H will think I really don't care about our M/don't love him anymore, and therefore move forward with D. Again, I know this is not a founded fear. And I could always say something to make it clear before I leave in DB spirit, I'd imagine, something like, "Divorce is still not the solution that I want, but I accept your thoughts on the situation. Given that, I think it's best for me to have my own physical space to take care of myself. You can always get in touch with me if you want to talk."
KGirl,
I love the way you wrote this next to last post. It really shoes how you are thinking and trying to process everything.
In regards to #1, your h will do what he decides to do. You can't control what he thinks. You need to take care of you and be happy with or with out him. Because the reality is that he's not acting like the man you married right now is he?
I did want to comment on something you wrote in number 2. You are afraid you won't be able to trust your h again. Can I ask you something? Do you trust him now? If you do, why? He has said he is done and wants to be friends. Logically, we all know that isn't really a true switch to go from "my husband is my best friend" to "still best friends and no longer husband." That's his caca to figure out- not yours. My h said that too and I would never be friends or trust someone who behaves the way he does now.
And don't worry about what other people think. You can't control that either. Maybe someone didn't like the dress you wore at your wedding or the cake you served. Too freaking bad. That's not your problem. You aren't a failure.
You are working really hard on figuring out what's important to you. Keep it up!
K Girl ,
I just realized we had BD on the same day. It was a caca day. However , you are on your way:)
GB - something special about the Sunday before holiday season starts, I guess, that prompted them to tell all?
and to add to it, my birthday was about a week afterwards... for which he still got me a present O_o And I know he didn't buy it in advanced of BD, 'cause he showed me a picture of it on the internet and asked me if I liked it before ordering it!
I sure don't trust him right now (to his surprise... when I asked about putting in writing what the financial situation would be if I moved and having him sign it, he was incredulous that I didn't trust him on that.) So I guess it's more about the likelihood of regaining that trust. Really, though, I think I'd have to be MORE trusting than I was even before BD for this to work. Honestly, I don't know if I've trusted H in a looong time as much as I should or what would be healthy in an M. It goes back to the multiple times he's broken that trust, and never been what I saw as apologetic or sympathetic enough. I'd get a "I'm sorry you are upset BUT..." followed by some justification. "It's just what guys do." "it's how I felt at the time." "We weren't technically together." "I have to take this job I was offered." (that one just popped into my head... he knew after graduation I was going to graduate school in the same city we'd been living in, but took a job two hours away.) I mean, the guy gave me a promise ring freshman year of college, broke up with me senior year, and then didn't understand why I refused to wear it when we got back together. It represented a promise that he couldn't follow through on. So, I'm pretty scared that it will never be possible to rebuild trust if we continue to disconnect/lead lives where we know less and less about each other. How do you come back from being "dumped" multiple times? When are there too many strikes?
And yes, that's why I could not be friends with him. For one, I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who is acting the way he does - walking out on a relationship with no effort and little explanation. For two, why would I want to put myself through things like conversations about new GFs or Ws or who knows what? For three (getting a bit ahead of ourselves but...), if I have a future BF or H, it's probably not real fair to him to have my XH hanging around as a good friend.
My birthday was week before BD. Fa la la la la...,
Hang in there:)
I think the answer is there in the above exercise, once I thought it all through. That, and I feel like I reached my tipping point this morning. I had brought some stuff in from my car to put away, and later realized H had put it away for me. I pictured myself saying to him (don't worry, didn't actually do it!) "Please don't put things away for me. When you do that, I start to believe you care about me, but then when it's clear later that you don't, it really hurts." And then I burst into tears and sobbed like I haven't in weeks. I wish I could be strong enough to just detach while staying here, but I don't think it's realistic for me at this point. No matter what I do it will be hard, but at least once I get over the initial moving/packing/splitting up stuff, just being able to take care of myself without these daily micro-hurts has to be better. And I know it's not an automatic "death sentence" for getting back together. I'm still not filing. He has my number, he knows he can contact me.
labug - you posted something earlier about what I think he's planning. Honestly, I don't think he's planning anything... and that makes me very sad/frustrated. He's just sitting in limbo. He says he's pretty sure about what he wants, but then also says he needs to figure out if it's really the best thing to do.. and then doesn't seem to take any action. He has told me previously that he's been "trying not to think about it" and avoiding the issue. It makes no sense to me (does he think an answer will fall from the sky or divine intervention or something if he just doesn't think about it?) but whatever. Not my issue. Just have to take care of myself. If he's not putting effort into thinking about it or working on our M, makes no sense for me to continue to expend so much energy or emotion on it... I'll just divert it all to myself.
I think you said he was "pulling something" and I asked you what you thought he was pulling. I think he's been very clear.
Yes, absolutely. I realize/recognize now that he's not pulling anything behind the scenes or secretly planning something. It just is what it is, even though it makes no sense to me.
even though it makes no sense to me.That's where we get stuck. Our expectation is that people will act as we do, that what makes sense for us makes sense for others. I lived in a very black/white world for much of my life, lots of rules, rights, wrongs,judgments. I had trouble accepting anything in the gray zone.
I think this is where your fear comes in the most, you don't know how to live life without certainty, the certainty we thought we had with M, our Hs, the future we had planned. Without things being black or white, we feel lost, out of control, afraid.
Life is uncertain and learning to live it while accepting the uncertainty makes it so much better.
What do you think?
Yes, I hear that. I'm definitely afraid of the unknown, especially an unknown that I have ZERO effect on. So, what do I do with that? Do I challenge myself to sit in the uncertainty and live with it on a daily basis? Or do I take control of what I can (in this case, leaving and making my own life), which may mean not fully accepting the uncertainty? Rhetorical, I guess, since it's really whatever is going to be right for me, right?
How did you reach that point Labug? What did you do to have that way of thinking?
Yes, I hear that. I'm definitely afraid of the unknown,
especially an unknown that I have ZERO effect on. So, what do I do with that? Do I challenge myself to sit in the uncertainty and live with it on a daily basis? Or do I take control of what I can (in this case, leaving and making my own life), which may mean not fully accepting the uncertainty? Rhetorical, I guess, since it's really whatever is going to be right for me, right?
Why do you say zero effect? You have much opportunity to change you, which is the only thing you can change.
I see the stuck-ness being around you wanting to control the outcomes. I so understand that, I had my whole life planned, down to the last penny because that made me feel safe. I needed to control to remove all the unknowns from my life. If I could control for all that, I could keep "bad things" from happening.
Guess what, didn't work.
What I didn't understand was that the control I was exerting on others in order to make my plan work was the very thing that was undermining my outcome. I was also very unhappy most of the time because others weren't falling in line with me, marching to my drumbeat. Being a controller is exhausting.
You want answers and no one has those in the specificity you seek. But in changing how you view the world, your place in it, and your relationships with others, I think the answers will come.
Yes, you do have to sit with anxiety and that's a good first step. The world around us is constantly changing, minute by minute, the bus is late, meetings run overtime, co-workers are sick and we have to deal with their load, it rains when we have an outside even planned, our spouses feel controlled and unheard when we're only trying to help them, on and on.
Being able to put these things in perspective and take them in stride as just life, is a beginning. Accepting these everyday things gives us a grounding that helps us also accept the bigger things. Realizing that there is often not a right or a wrong, sometimes things just "are" and we can do nothing about that.
How did you reach that point Labug? What did you do to have that way of thinking?
Reach which point?
labug, I like what you posted today. I kinda want to read it daily to remind myself of all those ideas
What I meant was, I have zero effect on my H. There is nothing I can do or say right now to make him reconsider his stance. I have to accept that, let him go, and focus on myself, instead of wanting to influence people and outcomes beyond my "reach" (I picture myself spinning in a circle with my arms outstretched and it's just me in that circle.. in that circle is all I can really worry about and improve upon). Yes, I do want answers, but I know no one can give me them. I want someone or a book or an article to tell me "Yes, moving will help, then he'll see what he's missing!" or "No, don't move, he can't see your changes!" or something of the sort, but there is no right or best answer.
Reading your post, I was first thinking "is labug saying I should con't to live with H so I can face the anxiety??" But I don't think that's what you're saying. When I reflect back on your past posts, your advice has always been to do what I need to do for me, and that regardless of what I'm going to do, it's not going to push him any further away. I found an apartment today that meets almost all my criteria (well, my last apartment would be ideal, but there are no openings there currently!). Free underground parking, a storage unit, lots of closets, a kitchen pantry, in-unit washer/dryer, right by a bus stop, a nice patio that doesn't face the freeway. I just keeping thing, though, that it's not the same as living in my house that I saved and dreamed for, and never will be. It's tough. Right now it's the hardest decision I've ever had to make. I feel like I'm giving up on our M even though I know in my heart and brain it isn't true. Who knows what may or may not happen in the future. All I know is the current situation and how I'm feeling, and that is that I don't want to be this person's roommate anymore.
I think this is where your fear comes in the most, you don't know how to live life without certainty, the certainty we thought we had with M, our Hs, the future we had planned. Without things being black or white, we feel lost, out of control, afraid.
Life is uncertain and learning to live it while accepting the uncertainty makes it so much better.
That point where you accept uncertain
K Girl,
I'm not sure if this will help as I too like to think I know *exactly* what the future looks like. I've found the more I do that, the more disappointed I am. Gosh, I can't believe x? Or so now I guess I won't y?
In the last couple of months I realized by doing that I was setting myself up for disappointment. This weekend I caught myself going to "I'm sure I will be living x." I caught myself and said "I would like to x" and I didn't think about it or dwell on it further. I think the key is setting goals and making plans for yourself. However, realize that you can't control others and sort of let things be. I think once we realize we don't have to see exactly the way everything will be (and we can't), we can relax and enjoy things more.
I just read that and not sure if it made sense. Just be. Really. Focus on you and what makes you happy.
labug, I like what you posted today. I kinda want to read it daily to remind myself of all those ideas
What I meant was, I have zero effect on my H. There is nothing I can do or say right now to make him reconsider his stance. I have to accept that, let him go, and focus on myself, instead of wanting to influence people and outcomes beyond my "reach" (I picture myself spinning in a circle with my arms outstretched and it's just me in that circle.. in that circle is all I can really worry about and improve upon). Yes, I do want answers, but I know no one can give me them. I want someone or a book or an article to tell me "Yes, moving will help, then he'll see what he's missing!" or "No, don't move, he can't see your changes!" or something of the sort, but there is no right or best answer.
Reading your post, I was first thinking "is labug saying I should con't to live with H so I can face the anxiety??" But I don't think that's what you're saying. When I reflect back on your past posts, your advice has always been to do what I need to do for me, and that regardless of what I'm going to do, it's not going to push him any further away. I found an apartment today that meets almost all my criteria (well, my last apartment would be ideal, but there are no openings there currently!). Free underground parking, a storage unit, lots of closets, a kitchen pantry, in-unit washer/dryer, right by a bus stop, a nice patio that doesn't face the freeway. I just keeping thing, though, that it's not the same as living in my house that I saved and dreamed for, and never will be. It's tough. Right now it's the hardest decision I've ever had to make. I feel like I'm giving up on our M even though I know in my heart and brain it isn't true. Who knows what may or may not happen in the future. All I know is the current situation and how I'm feeling, and that is that I don't want to be this person's roommate anymore.
This is a very good post, it's more about you than anything I've seen you write.
Letting go is difficult but it's doable. It's the fear that keeps us clinging to what we think will make us happy. Sometimes we stay in bad situations just because we're afraid.
Whatever you choose to do there will always be some fear and some anxiety, things are rarely ow we think they "should" be, learn to live with that. Be OK in the moment.
You don't know what tomorrow holds, or next week or next year.
I think this is where your fear comes in the most, you don't know how to live life without certainty, the certainty we thought we had with M, our Hs, the future we had planned. Without things being black or white, we feel lost, out of control, afraid.
Life is uncertain and learning to live it while accepting the uncertainty makes it so much better.
That point where you accept uncertain
When I realized that everything was uncertain and I could either continue to live life filled with fear or accept life on life's terms, learn to live in the present moment and enjoy myself.
I'm a work in progress, it's a daily practice. IC has helped me, meditation has helped my, reading has helped me but I had to do the work.
Couple of things today:
First, about me. I filled out the apt. application and am thinking I'll turn it in this week. It's entirely possible I may feel different tomorrow or the next day, but I'm trying to keep my mind open to the thoughts that come and explore what is making me anxious or stressed, and then let it go. It is scary to sign a year long lease, but there are sublease provisions so nothing has to be permanent, it can end up being whatever I want it to be. Part of the application asks me for my last three addresses... of course, I cannot remember my exact address back in 2008! So I called my mom to see if she had it in her address book somewhere, which then led to me letting her know I was planning to apply for an apartment. That conversation did NOT help my attitude and reminded me that I need to be careful about my support network - family is not necessarily a default 1st choice. She made comments like "so nothing's changed, huh? guess that's it, then" and was very sad, which made me very sad, etc. Need to keep reminding myself this does NOT mean I have given up on this relationship, or that there's no going back, despite what other people may think.
About H: Something he did yesterday makes me laugh looking back on it. I'm glad I can laugh about things now, that seems to be a good thing. I made some shredded BBQ chicken in the crockpot for myself and figured I'd just freeze all the extra for some other time. H kept talking about how good it smelled, it looked delicious, etc. etc. Eventually he asked... "Would you consider trading me some BBQ chicken sandwiches for Snickers ice cream bars? I have two boxes of them." ?! It's just funny to me. He picked out ice cream bars at the store but didn't think about actual dinner food. I thought about it and negotiated two sandwiches for two Snickers bars, which I will thoroughly enjoy because H paid whatever the ridiculous full price was (whereas I buy EVERYTHING on sale or with a coupon). So weird. But amusing
He also told me he's playing soccer 4 times this week. Before all this, soccer was a contentious topic, and we had worked out an agreement that he couldn't play more than 2 times per week - each game takes about 2.5 hours of his time between warming up, changing, travel time, and the game itself. More than 2x a week meant that he wasn't doing much, if any, chores, much less have time for us to do anything together during the week (not to mention it's $15 per game). I'm not sure if that was me being controlling or setting reasonable boundaries - when he added more soccer, he took the time he'd spend with me or on household stuff to do that, rather than compromising time on his other individual "for fun" activities. I guess he's really let go of any obligations or commitments to me, but whatever. I made no comments or remarks about the 4 games this week, just ignored it, though internally it still annoyed me. I understand that it's not my business at this time but it still stings a little. I hope that in the future, regardless of who I'm with, we'll be able to have conversations about individual time vs. family time, acknowledge each other's needs, and be able to find a balance that works for both people.
KGirl - You are sounding stronger, which is great. I understand what you mean about family not being the best support network. Honestly, my mom doesn't even know. I've told my dad, one sister, and two close friends. When H and I were separated several years ago, I did tell my mom and she was terribly negative and I've decided I don't need that influence this time.
Need to keep reminding myself this does NOT mean I have given up on this relationship, or that there's no going back, despite what other people may think.
This ^^^^^ is so true. Only you get to decide when you are done. It sounds to me like you've really thought carefully about moving out and are doing it to take care of yourself, which is the right motivation.
I hope that in the future, regardless of who I'm with, we'll be able to have conversations about individual time vs. family time, acknowledge each other's needs, and be able to find a balance that works for both people.
Yes!
Blah. Well, I turned in my apartment application. Then I let H know I'd work on drafting up the agreement re: financials and whatnot that he could sign. Which led to all kinds of R talk...I tried to listen and validate but H also asked me a lot of questions about things so...
-H questioned why I was being so particular about the financial documentation. He said he wasn't going to scr*w me over, he'd be completely fair, etc. etc. According to him, once again, I don't trust him, just like always, but he did acknowledge that maybe him not saying anything to me about what was going on may have led to me not being very trusting. I noted that it was hard for me to trust him given what he's done, between walking away and the work OW. He, again, said that I never trusted him to begin with and this was always an issue. He then said something about how he doesn't want to talk to me about things/how he's feeling, because "based on some previous things" he feels I might use it against him in the divorce. ?? WI is a no-fault state so nothing makes a difference. He said I could still find a way to spin it. It's interesting that he insists he can be completely trusted in this process, but that I might spin things that have no bearing.
-Then, he got in on the work OW. He insisted he never cheated on me, and he would never date anyone or cheat while we were still married, and he was allowed to have friends, and he can't help that he might think of someone more than a friend but that wasn't cheating because you can't help how you feel. I said that it was a huge red flag that he kept this friendship a secret, and that it would be a different story if he had told me about her (or heck, even mentioned he worked with this person!) or mentioned they went out to lunch, maybe introduced us etc. I mean, I'm not crazy, right? This all seems reasonable and normal if you are meeting solo w/ someone of the opposite sex, that you'd fill your spouse in. His response? "If I told you you'd just go crazy and never want me to hang out with her. You don't want me to hang out with anyone but you." ?? It's like we're speaking different languages. I feel like I'm asking for some reasonable honesty and communication, and he feels like I'm making him a prisoner. I explained that I felt like what he was doing was still a form of cheating (maintaining this friendship when he felt more than friends about the person AND keeping it a secret) and he disagreed. He said that he wants to have friends from "all walks of life" and if he tells me about them I may not approve and then I'll tell him he can't hang out with them. I feel like my opinions are just not valued - if it doesn't fit with his beliefs, then I'm wrong, and therefore crazy and he doesn't have to respect how I feel. He talked about how he didn't make enough friends in the past, and he should have had a "backbone" to stand up to me, and he doesn't have to give me a detailed account of what he's doing and who he's with. I said there is an in-between between giving "detailed accounts" and keeping a friend entirely secret, that I imagine we could find a place where we'd both be happy. He was not convinced.
-Then, he said "what have you been doing in counseling all this time? You haven't changed at all. You still don't trust me and you can't let go of stuff, here you are bringing up the girl from work again." I said that for me to trust him, I would need for him to tell me that was done, he was truly sorry and understand how it hurt me, etc., and that I understand he may not feel that way now but that's what I would need in the future. His response: "No, I don't feel that way right now, I'm not really sorry for how I felt about her" and then proceeded to tell me that he just shouldn't have ever told me about that, and it was better if I just didn't know things.
-He asked why I said I couldn't be friends with him right now given how he's being, but still want to save our M. I explained that I see potential for change or for things to be different, and that's where I see the hope or desire to make a new M, but his actions and what he's doing right now are not what I want in my life.. but that doesn't mean it could be different.
-I got a little hopeful when he said he had no intention of using this physical separation to date, but to figure out himself and what he wants. But then, he said he had made a decision and it would be a "sign of weakness" if he were to back out. Umm... ok. I asked "so why haven't you just gone through with it, then?" He said "I need time to make sure it's the right decision." Not time to figure out what to do, or anything, but like I thought, confirm what he's already decided.
Eww, eww. But, this confirms I made the right choice turning in that application. We both need to do some serious soul-searching. There is no way he'd consider coming back unless I make some SERIOUS changes and they stick. At the same time, though, I feel like a lot of the things he doesn't like, aren't unreasonable. Maybe we just have different expectations about relationships and what is ok vs. what isn't, and it can't be resolved. I guess that will be my time to figure that out.
When I try and summarize this mentally... I feel like whenever I talk about something that has hurt me and ask for an apologize or acknowledgement of it, H just says he can't help how he feels, it was justified, etc., and pushes it away... which then makes me feel like it's unresolved and it comes up again.. which H then feels like I hang stuff over his head forever.. it's a never ending cycle. I guess I could be the bigger person and stop the cycle but why do I always have to be the one left unfulfillfed? Why can't he apologize and acknowledge it so it stops there?
The other thing I need to think about and figure out: Am I an untrusting person and should be more trusting? Or is my H just an untrustworthy person? It's not clear to me right now, I'd like to believe it's the 2nd, but I don't know if it's possible to look at it more objectively. Maybe I just need someone in my life who is more open and honest and respectful, that would fit better with where I am naturally on the "trust" scale. I can work on that, but there's a point where it may just be my nature to not freely 100% trust everything people say and do. And maybe what he wants is someone who is just naturally always trusting and believing in the good in people.
KGirl, if there have been other things you didn't trust him with, then I'd say it was a problem. However, his R with OW (whatever he wants to call it) is inappropriate. Period.
^^^ I mean, if you were truly untrusting about many things when there was no real need to be.
Regardless, OW is a red flag.
That's what I think, too.. but he makes me doubt myself. I think that a secret friendship with someone of the opposite sex where you imagine what it would be like to date them/be a stepfather to their kids = innapropriate, crossing a line, untrustworthy. But he keeps saying that it's just feelings, no actions, he can't help how he feels, he's allowed to have friends outside of me and not have to tell me everything, etc. and then I start to wonder "maybe I am being too restrictive? Am I overreacting?" Oddly this happens to me at work too... I'm very sure of a fact, then a student tells me "but I've heard that I can do X and Y and it will work.." and then somehow I start talking myself out of what I know to be true.
A secret friendship of any kind is shifty, at best.
thank you, artsy, for confirming that I haven't totally lost it here
Granted there are things I could relax on or work more on, but some things are just crossing a line.
OK, on a more action-oriented note...
Does anyone have advice on how to handle/tips for when H and I need to go through and divide up our stuff? Anyone been through this process with their S? It seems like usually the S who wants out just leaves and takes minimal stuff or the stuff that is clearly theirs. Just thinking about going room by room and dividing up sets of things or who gets certain things that are sentimental to both of us is upsetting. The main thoughts that run through my mind are "I don't even WANT this separation, and you never gave a cr*p about stuff before like Kitchenaid mixers or Fiestaware or ceramic birds, so h*ll if I'm letting you have that stuff.. I'm gonna take everything that I want!" and I know that is definitely not the way I should be approaching this.
Separating stuff wasn't too hard for us. We have two living areas. I told my H he could take the older set of furniture. The newer set was purchased specifically for our house when we bought it and I had decorated the entire main living area around it. I also told him he could take the bed from the guest room for D7. Other than that, he mostly took the stuff that was clearly his. He asked me if there was anything in kitchen that he could have. I had been looking at new dinnerware anyway, so I let him take that and just kind of divided some of the other stuff up. There were a couple of things he indicated that he wanted to take, but as soon as I pushed back a little, he backed off. I was only going to make a big deal out of it if he tried to take something that was important to me.
WRT your H justifying his feelings for OW, I'm with Artsy. I'd be suspicious of secret friendships with individuals of the opposite sex. If it isn't a big deal, why does it need to be a secret?
KGirl - I apologize in advance for the hijack that follows below. I figured you wouldn't mind since you referred to labug in your post on my thread.
Labug - If you have a chance, I'd love for you to take a look at my thread. I'm realizing that I need to work on my control issues. KGirl has recommended a couple of books for me to read, but mentioned that you might have others. I've followed your posts on this thread and others and would value your input.
I guess the topic of conversation this week in IC will be what, if anything, I should do with the information H has given me. In theory he has given me more things he is/was unhappy with that I could 180. But I don't know that I want to. Trusting him more: could I have done better at this in the past? Yes. Should I now? Leaning towards no. He has hurt me deeply and given me no reasons to trust him in the past 4 months. I have not questioned or asked anything about where he goes, who he is with, etc. What else can I do? The OW and him saying I should let it go and not dwell on the past: this was within the 6 months, not some distant past, and again, he has done nothing to show he is sorry, it's a done thing, etc. In fact, he is the opposite: justifies it, doesn't acknowledge it was inappropriate, etc. How can I forgive and forget when to me there has been no resolution on the issue? People say on here better to be happy than right...I don't know if my hesitation in all this is wanting to be "right" or just knowing where my boundaries and values lie re: what I want and need in a partner. I feel stuck. It feels like we both want the other person to change first so we will always feel stuck. I don't want to trust him or forgive until he comes back truly apologetic and willing to listen to my needs and acknowledge them. He won't come back if I don't trust him and let this stuff go. What to do?
Quick drop in
I saw on one site where the advice was the BS gets everything that starts with a consonant....
children house money car furniture.
the WS gets things that start with a vowel
umbrella, amoirier,
I liked the thought!
Hehe... thanks, loualea. That sure would be a nice way to do it! I'm not liking the thought of having to spend money replacing things I already have 'cause I have to leave them with H (toasters, blenders, vaccuums... stuff like that).
There's a law firm in town that hosts free walk-in family law clinics on Saturday mornings for people that aren't sure if they want/need a lawyer, are thinking of doing the divorce proceedings themselves, or just want more info on the process. I went there this morning and I was the only one there so I basically got a free individual consultation! It made me feel a lot better about the situation. Basically, H and I could write up and sign something to the effect of he pays the mortgage from X date on, I am only entitled to the equity from X day and before, but it's not really enforceable because it's not a pre-nup nor is it an actual divorce filing/motion. But, it can't hurt. Essentially I just have to trust that H will pay the mortgage in full each month. The lawyer I talked to thought it was questionable that H could do that based on his income and our mortgage.. but H doesn't spend any money beyond the bare essentials (which to him are cable, internet, and spaghetti-o's) so I'm not concerned he won't be able to pay. Re: the equity, if we divorced the assumption is I'm entitled to half up through the time of divorce regardless of whether I'm paying anything or not since my name is on the mortgage and title, so I can't possibly be hurt by this. So H will have to trust that I will only ask for what is fair based on what I paid. Guess this will be a trust exercise on both our parts? : ) I'll still have him sign it just so we're clear on expectations and there are no surprises.
Afterwards I decided to have some fun. I went to Starbucks and walked around our downtown farmer's market for awhile. That's definitely a good place to be "in the moment" - if you're not and you dawdle or you're not paying attention you will get trampled by people and strollers
It was a beautiful day to people watch, try samples, and buy some snacks.
H told me he started counseling. Not sure if he'll continue, though. He said "is it a bad sign if the guy is yawning while I'm talking?" :S. But the guy he's seeing is apparently well-known, teaches classes here at the university, and specializes in men's issues in relationships, communication, etc. *shrug* whatever, trying not to ponder it too much, it's not my issue to deal with.
I'm kind of excited about aspects of moving. I'm picking out new bedding, a TV stand, stools for the kitchen island.. there are some positives! And I can pick out whatever I want and don't have to ask for permission or make sure they like it, too
I'm going to re-read the LRT daily so I can focus on maintaining that in the next 6 weeks. H keeps engaging me in small talk and asking me to do things like run errands, cook meals together, etc. Today he was really pushing the grocery store.. saying "I know you don't have to, but if you're going to the store, and I'm going to the store, we could go together. We could just have separate carts but go in the same car. It's not a problem to me." Instead of saying "well it's a problem for me!" I just politely declined. I debated whether to try harder on the 180's I had been doing earlier in all of this... his main things are A) he wanted me to be more appreciative, complimentary, proud of him B) he wanted me to trust him more and let him "have a life". I can somewhat do B. I just will con't to not question or ask about anything he does with others. But I will not say "I trust you" or believe that he'll follow through on something financially without something in writing or confirmation that it happened. I don't think he's trustworthy right now. As for the first 180... I just don't have it in me to be appreciative or complimentary towards him right now. It would be forced and fake if I tried. I'm not seeing anything that makes me appreciate or want to compliment him so, I guess I won't worry about that. When the L today asked me if we had tried marriage counseling or what we had done so far and I said nope, H won't do it right now, he says he doesn't want to change his decision because it would be a sign of weakness, the L said "that sounds kind of immature... D is the easy way out, to me it's a sign of weakness that that's his first option rather than trying to talk with you about it and work on things."
K Girl,
It sounds like you are doing some great GAL activities. While I understand the concept of being happy versus being write, I don't think trust is a fuzzy area. IMHO, trust is not something you extend arbitrarily to someone who has taken a vow for better or worse. Why would you trust your h right now? He said he wants to be friends and not married. Even though we are told believe none of what they say and half of what they do, you have no choice but to believe this is what your h wants.
Keep focusing on you. I'm happy to hear you are excited about moving. You can make it your space.
I'm glad you had a good day.
I'm kind of excited about aspects of moving. I'm picking out new bedding, a TV stand, stools for the kitchen island.. there are some positives! And I can pick out whatever I want and don't have to ask for permission or make sure they like it, too
Good way to look at the bright side. I've changed some things in my house since my H moved out--new bedding, a new reading chair in the office, and new artwork. All were things that I bought simply because I liked them, without regard to what he would think at all. FTR, he hates the chair, but that almost makes it better
Freaking out a little here...
I asked H about signing the document referenced earlier (all things he had verbally agreed to re: paying the mortgage, equity, bills, etc.) since I'm scheduled to sign my new lease tomorrow. He says... "I don't know if I want to sign it, it sounds very official and legal, how do I know you're not screwing me over somehow?" Where did that come from? Everything in there is what he already told me he would do to be fair and amicable. It probably sounds official because I was a legal studies major in college and took a lot of law classes, even ones with the law school students. I'm stepping away for a bit because I'm really upset right now. Trying to figure out if it's worth making him sign something. It's not really enforceable anyways, more just to make sure we're clear so a month from now he doesn't say "what? I don't know what you're talking about, I never said I'd do that." Sigh. If he wants us to be separated so badly why is he making this harder?
He said he would sign it when it was a nebulous thing in the future. Now that you're asking he's being careful, which isn't a bad thing. I would do the same. Encourage him to seek advice and see what happens.
Can you not put a judgment on what he's doing? He's not making it harder, just taking care of him and sometimes that doesn't jive with what we want. I know it's hard. Don't make this bigger than it is.
What would you do if you were in his shoes?
I see what you are saying, labug. It's just kind of last-minute for him to seek advice and make sure he's protecting himself. He had lots of time when we were discussing this to do this, and now when it's the zero hour he's questioning it. I'm nervous about signing my lease without this in place. I suppose I could delay signing it until later in the week... or maybe he will think more about it today and decide to sign it. I'll have to just keep an open mind, stay calm, and know that nothing that happens will be life-ending. I'll know if he doesn't pay the mortgage and it could be addressed at that time. I will not lose my equity no matter what happens. If the utility bills aren't paid, well... I won't be the one in the dark/with no water. Ultimately it's just money, and nothing that's happening is going to bankrupt me or put me out on the street. The money can be re-earned and re-saved.
Read your response again, do you see that control in the form of
KGirl's Rule for Life slipping in.
I see it so clearly because I had the same Rules.
The rest of your post-awesome working through your anxiety. Keep that spirit!
Lease is signed - I will pick up my keys June 1, but since that's a Sunday and I can't take off work Monday, I'll move the following weekend. I consider it a success that I signed all of the paperwork without breaking down into tears
My goals for the next 6-7 weeks are:
-Make sure I've identified/found all items, including electronic docs and digital pics, that I want to make sure I take with me and have copies of, as if I'm not coming back.
-Don't take junk with me just to take it. Only pack things that I can actually use in my apartment.
-Maintain a positive attitude in front of H - cheerful, but don't initiate conversation. Try my best to leave H with the best impression of me possible
-Con't to figure out what I want to work on about myself and what concrete actions I can take towards personal improvement. Continue GAL, stay busy, keep pondering and addressing codependency-related issues, etc.
-Listen to H and validate without arguing or trying to prove him wrong. Try to be reasonable when dividing things but hold my ground on things that are important or have sentimental value to me.
Any other thoughts or feedback? I need to keep visualizing the actual move and being in a new place (I should have taken pictures, all I have is a floor plan to look at!) so that when it happens I can hopefully do it calmly and confidently, without sobbing in the middle of move-in. I will ask H to be gone that day so that it's just me and some good friends around.
H keeps engaging me like a friend and it's hard to detach when he does this. He asks to cook meals together, gives me updates on his family, tells me about TV shows and other things he's experienced, let me know tomorrow is his 1 year anniversary at his current job...all kinds of things that feel like "before" conversation. I have to keep telling myself that it's just him being friends, it means nothing... trying not to have any expectations. If anything changes it will take a long time after I leave for it to happen, so I just have to have patience and be in this for the long haul.
Did he sign the agreement?
Have you told him you're moving?
He knows I'm moving. He didn't sign the agreement. I gave it to him Friday to review, said I was signing my lease Monday, I asked him on Sunday to sign it which is when he balked. Hence me feeling like it was the zero hour. I texted him Monday morning saying "I'm supposed to sign my lease tonight after work. Do you agree to pay the mortgage like we discussed?" And he texted back yes. That's all the peace of mind I got. How long do I wait before asking again for him to sign it? Or is it too late? He says he doesn't want to be nagged in general/that is one of his complaints about me, but he didn't bring it up yesterday. If I ask again tonight am I being too pushy?
Save your text messages.
Don't bring it up right away, you're not moving until June. Asking for a business agreement isn't pushy. The real question is, would his not signing change your plans to move?
As you said, the agreement isn't enforceable so his signing or not only has value to you.
I ended up with those same conclusions. It's really only to make me feel better since it's not enforceable. He has more to lose from it than I do (because not paying the mortgage in full will hurt him as well as me, whereas the equity issue can only benefit me based on the law). And either way, I'm going to move. What WOULD change things is if I found that he wasn't making the mortgage payment or only part of it (I can check the payment history online), in which case I'd take some legal action immediately.
I was trying to find the TED talk that MWD gave earlier in the month, and instead came across this article...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michele-weinerdavis/the-truth-about-emotional_b_1958709.htmlThis makes so much sense to me, and is EXACTLY what I've been trying to tell H, but he doesn't see it that way. I kind of want to send it to him because maybe if it's from a third party, and in writing, he'd understand better. But, maybe I shouldn't send it because it's pursuing-like behavior, and it's only relevant to share if he actually becomes interested in rebuilding/saving our M. Thoughts? If nothing else reading it helped solidify that I wasn't being crazy or overbearing with how I felt about the situation.
^^^ wow. My H has a few close (single, of course) female friends, one of whom had an affair with a married man. Yep, I was insecure and jealous and suspicious. And he was offended and defensive and didn't get it AT. ALL. I thought I was lame-o and crazy for feeling the way I did.
If I were you, I probably wouldn't send it now. It probably wouldn't help now. But bookmark it in case he ends up working on the marriage, or for your next R!
claire, I struggle with the line between insecure/jealous/suspicious overreacting and reasonable concerns. Before BD I always felt like everything I thought was justified. At BD I thought I must have been crazy/overreacting on everything and therefore drove H away with my crazy jealousness. Now, I think I've gotten myself to somewhere in-between. It's something I need to continue to work on because there were times in the past when I was over the top (and certain things get me anxious when they aren't worth being anxious over), but there are clear warnings in the present that I shouldn't ignore. I can't fix the past, but I'm not going to make up for the past by ignoring the current red flags and pretend everything is hunky-dory!
Don't send him anything. If you were in a committed R with him, maybe. But you aren't.
Let it go.
This is going to be roouuugghh.
H asked me a few questions today:
1) "Does your extended family know about us? Because mine doesn't, and I want to make sure I let them know before you do something like make a statement on Facebook or something."
Maybe he should learn about mind-reading, huh? I said no, I haven't told extended family. Re: Facebook, I said that once I move I plan to just remove my relationship status entirely, and take off some of the albums/pictures we are tagged in together. So, some people might infer things from that, but no blatant "announcement." He seemed OK with that.
2) He asked me about moving - what day, should he help me, etc. I let him know what day I planned, said I'd get a bunch of friends to help, and asked that he not be here that day. He agreed.
Which then lead to start talking about our stuff...
He feels strongly that anything that "matches" should stay together, to the point where he'd rather just keep it and buy me new stuff for my apartment. I think if things can appropriately be divided, that it makes more sense to do that, especially if we can each live fine with the divided stuff and don't need replacements. For example, our bedroom set has two dressers, two nightstands, and a bed. I suggested that I would take my dresser and nighstand, and he'd have his dresser and nighstand plus the bed (I think the bed will be too big to fit in my apartment, so fine with me). He said he would not agree to that. If I took those two pieces, he'd need to replace them with identical ones so he'd have a set, and if they didn't make that set anymore, then he'd either completely replace it or keep it all and offer to buy me my own set. He said "I don't see why you wouldn't accept it if I just offered to buy new stuff for you?" Umm.. because I like the things we currently have and they don't make them anymore? Why does he need two nighstands and two dressers? I'm trying to validate and see his point of view but it just doesn't seem practical in any sense. And I don't want to be pushed into just getting all new stuff that won't be ready when I move in, so I'll have to live without stuff until it's ordered or comes in. There's a week between when I get my keys and when I plan to actually live in the new place, so unless he thinks he can get everything delivered within that week... how does that help me? Especially if I can't take off work to be there?
Please, someone help me get through this...I don't know how I'll be able to do this without arguing or losing it. He then said something about "you know, you're the one who decided to move.." UGH!
Bah. Good thing the above all happened before book club so I could go away for awhile.
There were a few hopeful things he said in that conversation, so it wasn't all cr*ppy. Trying to keep it at hope instead of expectations.
-When we were talking about the whole replacing furniture thing to have complete sets, he said "If we got back together then I guess we'd have a bunch of furniture we'd have to figure out what to do with."
-I hadn't brought up anything about the cat today (we've already agreed he'll keep the cat, sad as it makes me, because she likes him much more than me), but he randomly said "If you get a cat and then we get back together... that will be a problem!" - our cat does NOT get along with other cats.
So, a few references to "if we get back together," which seems more hopeful than his previous statements of being "pretty sure, but not 100% yet that I want a D". *shrug*. Again, gotta leave it at hope and not expectations. I'm really annoyed still that when I was upset about how he wants to divide things, his response was "you're the one who decided to move." What does he think I should do? Just stay in the house indefinitely with someone who is pretty sure he doesn't want to be M to me? I know I shouldn't fire back with "well I wouldn't be moving if you hadn't come to the conclusion you've come to!" I'm having a hard time seeing his POV on this right now.
Oh, and then when I got home from book club, he said he was going to be gone for a few days here and there in June for "work and traveling" (and yet for a good 6 months before BD I tried to get him to travel with me and he wasn't interested) and asked if I might like to come be with the cat while he's gone. On the one hand, it would be nice to hang out with the cat. On the other, I don't know that I want to come back to the house and be reminded of everything or stress out about what has changed or knowing that he's gone and wondering who he's "traveling" with. It may be better just to cut all ties upon moving and let him figure out how to be a single cat parent
Today has just been rough overall. Starting to think about moving logistics is stressful. Also, my mom told me today that the newspaper back home called and asked for my phone # because they are doing a feature on the high school valedictorians from 10 years ago (I was one of them), a "where are they now" type of thing. That makes me stressed too because I don't know if anything about H or being married to my HS sweetheart is going to come up. It's a small town so it's fairly common knowledge, plus our families and last names are well known so it's not hard to connect the dots. Six months ago I would have loved to brag about being M to him. Now I just hope I don't have to say anything or can ask to leave anything personal out of it. I'm also a little anxious about it for my own personal reasons. I was voted "most likely to succeed", and the other valedictorians are all doing much more prestigious/highly paid things (physician assistants, pharmacists, in med school, stuff like that). And I'm basically a guidance counselor for college students. But, I know I am happy with the work I do, I'm good at it, my students like me, and I'm making a difference. Maybe I can throw in a few of my good "value of liberal arts education, you never know what opportunities may come your way so value the happenstance events" talking points in there
AND, our ten year HS reunion is this summer and the RSVP's are due soon. It's something I looked forward to going to w/ H for a long time, since we were in the same class and will both know everyone. Now I don't even know if I will be able to go if he's there and we are still S.
More things happening. No real questions, I guess, just trying to jot everything down while it's fresh in my mind so I can reflect back on it later.
H came home from work and immediately started talking to me about his IC experience thus far. To try to summarize (my H is a long-winded person so just listening is not really that hard!), H has seen his IC 3 times now, and he's not sure if the person is a good fit, or if he just doesn't have the right expectations about what IC would be like. He spent the first time just venting/talking about whatever came to mind and stated his goals ("To figure out if I really should get a divorce, and how to be happy in my life"), and the last two times his IC asked him about his "family of origin". H said he didn't feel like his IC took any notes or remembered anything because he had to repeat a lot of things. He also feels like he is just talking to talk, rather than trying to come up with actions or solutions. He said he wants to have a plan to try to figure things out, and he doesn't feel like talking about his parents and life history is helpful. He said he'd try this person another time or two, bring up what he wants help with and that he wants to focus more on actions and stuff he can do to figure things out, and if he doesn't feel satisfied he'd switch to someone else. When he was about to leave IC today he asked the IC "so is there anything I should do before I see you again?" and the IC said "oh, I didn't give you a packet before?" and gave him a packet with some John Gottman excerpts. H feels like the person isn't competent because he was ten minutes late seeing him, doesn't give him assignments, forgets things, etc. :S I hope this doesn't turn him off completely from IC.
Here's the tricky part, for me: validating while also trying to answer his questions about whether or not this is what counseling is like (I have a master's degree in social work, so I do know what a counselor's role is and how they operate!). I affirmed that it sounds like he's frustrated so far and that he wants to try to do something, rather than just talk. I shared that it probably wasn't until the fourth or fifth time I went to IC that we started talking more about things to do or "homework" to work on. I affirmed that yes, it's not a bad thing to tell your IC what you are hoping to gain, and that you can lead the conversation towards what you'd like to talk about.
All in all, it seemed to be a good interaction of listening, validating, including some objective points about counseling (like "you're right, they aren't going to tell you what to do, but a good counselor will ask you questions and reflect back so that you can figure out what's right to do for you").
H noted that at the beginning of all this, he was really angry and frustrated. Now, he's indifferent and doesn't have strong feelings. I used a line I've seen on here a lot and said "I'm really sorry that I contributed to you being so angry and frustrated. I wish I could go back and change things and do things differently... but I can't. All I can do is go forward." To which he said "no, you don't need to be sorry, this isn't about you, it's about me." Which is confusing because he also had complaints about me but... I don't know. Maybe he's more realizing it is about him. Which then FURTHER confused me when he said "I mean, I'm pretty sure I know what the answer is going to be at the end of all this... but I just want to triple check to be sure." So it's not about me, there's nothing I can do, it's about him, but he still wants a D anyways. Not sure what to make of that. He also said things, though, like "I told the IC I really needed help figuring out my life because I really wasn't sure what to do." So many conflicting ideas "pretty sure I know the answer" vs. "really wasn't sure what to do." Grr.
I did learn a valuable lesson - 180's that are pursuing or instigating are NOT going to work. H said "I don't necessarily want to tell you things I was unhappy with, because then you try and do something different to show me you can, but I don't like it. Like when I said I wished you were more appreciative. You started thanking me for everything and I hated it, because it seemed forced, and like I was doing the things for YOUR benefit when I wasn't. I just want you to give me space and not do any of that stuff." It's the "too little, too late" refrain I see over and over on here - they don't want that stuff now! So any 180's need to be really focused on me, or reactive things, not going out of my way to show H something is different.
Feeling kind of hopeless today, looking for some encouragement, feedback, and/or thoughts in general. H telling me he's pretty sure that he knows what the answer will ultimately be makes me really sad. He's so stubborn about things and when he takes a stance won't change it even when it is clearly not going to work out (not quitting a job when he receives a letter that he's about to be fired, for instance, because he still thinks he can turn things around). But, I see stories on here where the S said these same things and was stubborn, but still came around eventually and changed their mind. So, it's not necessarily for sure the end...right??
How do I reconcile "believe nothing they say" with accepting/validating where he's at right now so that he feels listened to? I think if I keep the attitude of not believing him, that will come out in my body language or things I might say, and it will make things worse. Is it more of an attitude of "I accept this is his stance at the current point in time... but am hopeful that that could change in the future?" He does keep referencing "If we get back together..." which I don't know that you'd keep bringing up if you were pretty sure you were done, so as to not give the other person hope. I can't help but feel like he's just saying that, though, to try and let me down easy.
I talked with the hometown newspaper today for the story they are doing on the valedictorians from 10 years ago. She did ask about family life - am I married, kids, etc. I just said "you know, that's kind of up in the air right now.. is it ok if we just skip over or leave out anything related to that?" and she said OK and left it at that. I am anxious that people will see I have a different last name and wonder why I didn't mention being M in the blurb... but I need to remember that while this consumes my life, other people don't care or wouldn't even notice the missing info. I feel like I sounded kind of boring - she asked me about my work, I talked about that and my educational background.. she asked if I any other personal things to share like traveling, hobbies, etc. I really couldn't come up with anything. She asked about pets so I said I had a cat... I guess this is my cue to try and develop more things that I can do. I feel like I have a busy life but it's nothing newspaper worthy, compared to the other people she's interviewing - they've spent extensive time traveling, moving to other countries, have blogs, etc. Honestly I don't think I NEED to do all those things to be happy, I'm pretty content with going to work, hanging out with friends, going to the gym, taking care of things around the house, but I just feel kinda down being compared to these people who are doing "exciting" things.
KGirl, sorry you are down. It will get better!
In regards to validating- maybe just remember you aren't agreeing with him. You are simply acknowledging what he's saying, letting him know you heard it. He is clearly confused, which is better than if he was charging full speed ahead without looking back. I think it's just important to remember you can't control the outcome, but you may be able to influence it. There's a difference, and it could go either way. HE needs to come up with his own decisions on his own. Believe me, I am struggling right now, too. I understand how hard this is!
Re: to everyone else doing "exciting" things. Stop comparing yourself to other people! How boring it would be if we were all the same. I'm more laid back, too. My H decided back when all of this happened that he needed to do more exciting things (sorry that I have a special needs child and a full time job-at the time. I can't go out every night of the week.) he has admitted, btw that he really just is trying to keep himself busy to avoid thinking about things and living in reality... Not that everyone who does "exciting" things is trying to escape from life, but just remember not everything is as it appears on the surface.
Do what you like. Although, maybe try some new things to see if you might like to do those more "exciting" hobbies. You never know!!!
Hang in there!!! (((((KGirl))))
It is raining like crazy here... and our downspouts are clogged...which means water is flowing down the sides of the house, leaking through the windows and flooding the basement. I'm working hard to not offer any suggestions or "fix" anything unless asked, and also not to stress about it (and make H even more stressed than he already is). Not much we can do until we can call a handyman tomorrow to clear the downspouts. Last fall we had gotten a quote on gutter guards. I offered that if we got them, we could pay for it from our joint account, despite the fact that I'm moving in a month. It seemed like the least I could do. I'm starting to feel guilty, like I'm saddling H with the house. I have to keep reminding myself that he wants it, and believes he can afford it, and doesn't want to sell it. H looked really good after coming in from the rain and taking his shirt off...
*sigh*
I'm working my way through "The Happiness Trap." I'm excited to get working on the part where I think about my values and making sure my actions are in line from them. I don't really find myself having negative stories or scripts about myself which seems to be more of a focus in the book. They are more externally focused - "Why is this happening to me? I've worked so hard in life,I don't deserve this." "Why is H being so stupid? How could I ever have believed him? I'm so angry at him."
H showed me his homework his IC gave him (which he hasn't done yet... but, I will not be reminding him or asking him about it!) It seems strange that his IC gave him some Gottman stuff to read, as well as an article about the five core values that couples can differ on and how neither extreme on the spectrum of each value is right or wrong. H told me his goal was to "triple check" that D was the right thing to do, so I'm surprised his IC gave him homework about making relationships work. Either stuff happened that I don't know about...or his IC is really not very attentive or good? :S Oh well. Guess it can't hurt.
K Girl,
My h's IC (at the time ) used to tell him he had an unrealistic view of marriage. I thought she might "get through to him."
It will be interesting to see if your h will do the work and look at himself during his counseling. Just let him figure out his thoughts and focus on you. It's nice to hear you are excited about your move. You can make your new place just the way you want.
GB - yes, I know I shouldn't concern myself with what H is working on or whether he follows through/makes the most of his IC... but it's ok to hope, right?
I keep hoping that it will 2x4 him into realizing that his unhappiness is internal and not just because of me. I also feel his views of what M or a W should be are very unrealistic. He wants someone to "mother him" (his words), cook him dinner every day, not talk back or stand up for herself, and have sex 4-5 times a week. And not have to share things about his life like when he'll be home from work or who he hangs out with. It seems pretty one-sided - all about him. There's my outburst for the day about him, now I can be done
Several things happened today that helped put thingsinto perspective for me. I've been feeling very victim-y lately: Why me? Why is this happening to ME? It's not fair. I don't deserve this. etc.
-There is drama all over fbook about this girl from my HS, my age but with 4 kids already, who turns out has been cheating on her H since Thanksgiving and bringing her kids around the OM. The drama comes in because his sisters also were in our class and keep posting about how you can't trust anyone, how some people are just terrible, etc. So, things could be worse. I don't mean this badly towards those who have kids because kids are great, but I am at least glad this is all coming up now instead of H waiting until after we had kids. AND I'm glad there's no fbook drama!
-I went to an awards ceremony today for returning adult student scholarships. One of the students I work with received a scholarship. It was very inspiring to hear all the stories of people coming back to school 10, even 20 years after HS to pursue their dreams of earning a degree. Many of the students were single moms, many divorced, who decided to finally pursue the dreams they had put on the back burner and make a better life for them and their kids. These students have it SO much harder than I do. They have families, often work full or part-time, AND are trying to go back to school at a place that is very geared towards traditional-age students (plus technology has changed so much, they often comment how you don't do things like go to buildings to register for classes - you do it all online!) And yet, were any of them complaining how sucky and hard their life was? No, they were so grateful for the opportunities available to them and were looking forward to how their lives were going to improve. My education is as far as I want to take it, I have a stable gov't job that I love, I will be able to make it on my own - I have very few obstacles in my way. If these women can do this, I certainly can!
GB - yes, I know I shouldn't concern myself with what H is working on or whether he follows through/makes the most of his IC... but it's ok to hope, right? I keep hoping that it will 2x4 him into realizing that his unhappiness is internal and not just because of me.
I'm right here with you. I'm staying optimistic that he'll figure out some of his issues in IC. Other than a couple of slip-ups early on, I've been very careful to keep that hope to myself, though.
not talk back or stand up for herself
This sounds familiar. My H sees me having a difference of opinion as me being unsupportive or of us being incompatible.
I really like the rest of your post. I think it is important for us to remember that we still have lots to be grateful for and not to lose sight of that.
Well, H started reading his IC homework today... then fell asleep. Then woke up and ran off to soccer, telling me "I'll be home sometime later" which so far has meant "I'm doing something after soccer so won't be home in an hour like expected." Which bothers me a lot less lately (I still have twinges of wondering who he is with/what he's doing, but then I use that time to enjoy having the house to myself, rather than stress about it for hours)... but doesn't give him much time to finish his homework. He said he had an IC appointment this week so that leaves tomorrow. But, not my problem, right? I might have a hard time keeping my mouth shut if he says IC's not helpful againv('cause I'll want to say "well, if you did the WORK you were supposed to do...")
H's soccer involvement has gotten a little out of hand - 3-4 times a week. If we were "actually" M that would not be acceptable, but I'm refraining from saying anything about it. I don't know if that's a controlling thought, or a reasonable thought? It takes a ton of time, and the outcome is he does things like leave dirty dishes on the counter for a week (not an overstatement). Before BD when he'd do that much soccer, we wouldn't do anything together besides eat dinner and watch TV because he was so tired he didn't have any motivation to go out and do anything on his "off" nights. But, now on his "off" nights, he'll stay out after work until 10-11 doing who knows what, so maybe he's not really too tired - he just didn't want to hang out with me. That idea makes me sad. H is going to Chicago with a friend of his for the 2nd time in the past couple of years soon, and wants me to watch the cat (still thinking of my answer to that). The first time when he went I said I'd really like us to go to Chicago together. He said "I'd rather go with [friend], it wouldn't be as fun with you." There have been many instances where H has said he didn't want to do something with me but was happy to do it with friends - why did I just brush that off before? Looking back, it really hurts.
Re: the fbook incident I mentioned above where someone from our high school was cheating on her H, my H saw that too and said "Wow... that's just terrible. If I was ever in that situation I'd hope I could be a better person. Especially if I had kids." It just blows my mind that he doesn't think that what he's doing right now is just as terrible (I guess 'cause he's not actually "cheating" and we don't have kids so then it's OK to drop someone to pursue your own happiness, whatever that means?) Can you tell I'm feeling a bit angry towards H today?
I periodically have feelings of anxiety about moving... thoughts like "what if H wants to get back together and now I've spent all this time and money? I will be so resentful towards him!" I'm working on accepting those feelings as they come, acknowledging them, and then telling myself that I can't possibly know what may or may not happen in the future. All I know is today's reality, and that is that H is pretty sure he doesn't want to be M, and given that, I want to live my own life and not be his roommate for convenience. I thought originally I was sad about leaving my house, but thinking it through, it's moreso the IDEA of it - I had done everything in what I thought was the "right" order (went to college, went to grad school, got married, got a cat, bought a house... then kids would be later) and now moving back to an apartment feels like I failed at life in someway. I know logically this isn't true, and that this would be what would happen if we D anyway, and plenty of people live in apts and I shouldn't be so judgy. But it still makes a knot in my stomach. The physical house itself is just a space to live in, what makes it a home is what happens in it - and right now it doesn't feel like a home when I have to live with someone who feels the way my H feels about me.
I have not snooped since whenever I committed myself to stopping (several weeks ago?) and while sometimes I'm curious, I don't do it, because I know how crappy it makes me feel. I'm starting to feel more and more like he's a stranger - who is this person? I know so little about what he's up to nowadays. Once in awhile he'll tell me random things about work, but it's always about other people at work and what they're doing - never about himself, or what he's doing after work or on the weekends when he's gone. Guess it's all part of him wanting to live his "own, separate life" that I know nothing about?
I periodically have feelings of anxiety about moving... thoughts like "what if H wants to get back together and now I've spent all this time and money? I will be so resentful towards him!" I'm working on accepting those feelings as they come, acknowledging them, and then telling myself that I can't possibly know what may or may not happen in the future. All I know is today's reality, and that is that H is pretty sure he doesn't want to be M, and given that, I want to live my own life and not be his roommate for convenience. I thought originally I was sad about leaving my house, but thinking it through, it's moreso the IDEA of it - I had done everything in what I thought was the "right" order (went to college, went to grad school, got married, got a cat, bought a house... then kids would be later) and now moving back to an apartment feels like I failed at life in someway. I know logically this isn't true, and that this would be what would happen if we D anyway, and plenty of people live in apts and I shouldn't be so judgy. But it still makes a knot in my stomach. The physical house itself is just a space to live in, what makes it a home is what happens in it - and right now it doesn't feel like a home when I have to live with someone who feels the way my H feels about me.
I'm going to focus on this because the rest I think may be journaling and it's about things out of your control.
So it makes a knot in your stomach. All changes in life give us some kind of uncomfortable feelings. It's OK.
You're not about to be eaten by a lion.
Perspective.
Thanks, labug. I know there could be many worse things out there...but perspective is hard when life has been relatively smooth up until this point! I feel like one of my students who is complaining about getting a C in a class...life will go on but it s*cks in the moment.
So H went to a movie yesterday while I was out running errands. I only know because he sent me a text saying he had gotten too big of popcorn and soda for himself. When he got home, he said he thought about asking me to go, "but it would be just to have someone to go with." My question is, if he does ask me to do anything in the near future, do I:
-accept, with no expectations, and use it as an opportunity to be intentional about interacting in a better way? Or...
-say no, that I don't want to do things with him unless he wants to work on our M (this would be in the no cake eating spirit?)
Along those lines, should I ask him to do anything providing I still do it anyway if he says no? His mention of thinking of inviting me to do something has thrown me off a little!
bumping my last post 'cause any advice or input would be appreciated re: what to do if H does invite me to do something? Give it a chance w/ no expectations, or stand my ground/no cake eating?....
...I've been thinking a lot about forgiveness. Can I forgive my H? Should I? In my reading and searching I've found that forgiving is one thing, rebuilding trust is different. You can forgive but we don't have to put ourselves in situations where we get hurt again unless there is information or conversation to say differently. Keeping that in mind has helped me a lot in wrapping my head around this. Continuing to feel hurt and victimized is of my own doing - I always thought the phrase "forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves" was kinda cheesy and didn't really make sense. I get it now.
I wanted to post this quote because I found it very helpful, and maybe others will too. It helped me put into perspective that my H isn't doing this with the intent to hurt me - he just doesn't know another way right now to act or do what he needs to be happy:
"Forgiveness does not mean approval. It involves a willingness to see with new eyes--to understand and let go. They did what they did out of their own weakness. You did not deserve it. They could not teach you what they did not know. They could not give you what they did not have." - Dr. Louise Hart
something I wrote on another thread a while back when thinking on forgiveness...
Now as for forgiveness. I will forgive my wife for the A, because if I don't, the anger and negativity will corrode my soul and affect me and make me bitter. So the act of forgiving is an act of self preservation. Now about being forgiven. If you have recognized your faults, and have truly made changes to improve yourself, what more can you do? You should be of clear conscience. You can't forever blame yourself for your earlier ignorance of your faults. At that point, how much does someone else's approval matter? Point being, her forgiving you or not is not going to change your course of action to improve yourself. And if you follow through, then I think forgiveness of your faults becomes her issue, not yours.
Hi K-Girl,
Just catching up on your thread. I think it's great that you are journaling-think that helps us come to terms with what we feel. In regards to accepting invitations with your h, let's think about that for a minute. How does hanging out with him right nor make you feel? I think saying you are only willing to go if he wants to work on the m is a know. Besides, actions speak louder than words so it sounds as if your h is not actively doing anything to indicate he wants to work on the m. If you can go with no expectations and you want to, then go. Personally, I would not buy that's just me.
In regards to forgiveness, it's a process. Sadly, there is no magic pill or switch to forgive. I do believe in order to truly live, grow and thrive, one has to forgive. Forgiveness is for you. It's not negating another 's actions or behavior. However, forgiveness can help you move forward. It just takes time.
I have a strong dislike for the victim mentality. We all feel it from time to time, and I think it's important to not play that card as there is no way to truly live or grow with that mentality. It's true the situation s$&ks and it ca be challenging to wrap your mind around it.
Loved Labug's comment of not being eaten by a lion that made me laugh.
Oops. Is a no. Speedy typing on my phone.
I have a couple more conundrums that I'm having trouble with in my "limbo" status
1) The gutters. We have a lot of trees around the house, and the gutters and downspouts very quickly get clogged, which leads to water running over the sides, which leads to flooded basements. H goes up on the roof once a week to clean them but it still happens. In the fall we had talked about gutter guards, and just never got around to it...
... now, H says he's sick of the gutter situation and wants to get gutter guards, and said we'd have to talk about how we'd want to pay for them. Not sure how to deal with this. I could
A) Insist he pays for them in full (we're talking $1,300 or so which isn't small change for us), because I'm moving June 1, and last word was he was 99% sure he wanted a divorce, so therefore 99% sure I won't be moving back into this house. Why should I pay for something I will reap no benefit from?
B) As a gesture of goodwill/in hopes that I might return to the house one day (which I would not say to him) offer that we pay for it from our joint account, so essentially split 50/50. If we end up having to sell the house and split the proceeds then the investment could be helpful. But, if he buys the house from me then I'm basically out that money.
Anyone else have situations like this (home repairs, big expenses, etc.) that they had to deal with?
The 2nd conundrum just resolved itself, I think. H and I have the same hair stylist. She doesn't know that we are S yet, but I think it would be good for her to know so she doesn't ask me questions like "How's H? How's your house? Your H is so bad at scheduling appts in advance! etc." I just got back from seeing her and chickened out on telling her. When she asked about H I just answered as vaguely as possible. As I was typing the first question above, H came by and noticed I got my haircut...
H: So did you tell [hair stylist] about us?
Me: No. But she said you had a haircut in a few weeks, so you could talk to her then.
H: OK. Yeah, I scheduled something.
I wasn't sure if I should just go ahead and tell her or email her, or get H to do it since he's the one that wants all this anyway! So hopefully he follows through. If not that will be awkward but I guess I'll deal with it at that time. I'm hoping she can keep an eye on our appts and let me know if we're scheduled back to back ever, because once I move I really don't want to see him if at all possible. One of my friends who knows us both said today that she'd bet that within a month of me being gone, H will realize what he's missing. I hope so but... I don't know. When he has to do things on his own (like go get toilet paper because he literally ran out... oops) he says things like "I know you would take care of this stuff, but I'll just have to do it on my own. I'm not staying with someone just to help with chores." So I don't think that missing me making dinner, or taking care of things around the house, is going to be enough to bring him "back"
K Girl,
Is your h buying you out of the house? Or is there no equity? I can't recall. I'm mot sure what others think but I think it's kind of ridiculous for your h to expect you to pay for gutter guards when you wont be living there in 3 weeks. I wouldn't volunteer to pay for them.
Others may disagree, however I think this is one of those things that happen when you split up. Both parties have to adjust to their own living expenses. If the gutters bother your h now, then your h should pat for them.
If we D he wants to buy me out of the house, and refinance in his own name. That is his plan, anyways. The D paperwork would stipulate that if that is not possible, then the house would be sold and proceeds split accordingly based on how long he was paying the mortgage vs. both of us. Right now this is all unofficial\in a document I wrote up, which also notes the buyout amt (my half of the current equity which is over $10,000). For now while we are separated the mortgage and house is in both of our names but he has agreed to pay it all. That seemed to leave a smoother road home than filing for S, which would force him to refi and then force the house to be sold. The lawyer I spoke to thinks it is questionable that he would get a loan based on the current payments and his income, even though H thinks he can afford it (he spends very little money so I suppose he could swing 2\3 of his take home pay for housing!) But yes, something about agreeing to pay for the gutter guards given his current attitude about how unlikely it is we will get back together makes me feel icky. It'd be different if the separation was more of a "let's see how we feel, I don't really know" type of thing.
Gutter guards: Tell him you can't afford it right now, as part owner, you vote no.
About the stylist: I understand your trepidation about naming this situation but the reality is, you're separated. Accepting it doesn't make it good or bad, it's just accepting it and being able to create your life around that.
I was afraid to tell people for a long time because I didn't want to be seen as a failure and talking about it made it seem more real. The reality was, no one really cared much and it didn't make it any more real. It did help me accept and move forward.
Thanks for the feedback. The quote we had gotten last year for the gutter guards was MUCH less, so the big increase in price made me question whether or not that's something I should contribute to.
Argargharghargh... so H had made it clear that he wanted to be involved wih dividing things up and not just leaving it up to me, he was very particular about wanting "sets" of things left "intact", and was concerned that if he wasn't here when I moved out that he'd come back and "everything would be gone." Last weekend I asked him to give me some times/dates he'd want to go room-by-room and discuss what I'd be taking vs. what would be staying. Nothing from him. I wanted to ask him again today, and tried my best to be non-accusatory and let him take the lead so he'd feel involved...
Me: I'd like to get started on packing. When can we start discussing what I'll be taking with me? Are there some times or days that work for you?
H: *silence... followed by a shrug*
Me: Tomorrow I'd be free. Or early next week.
H: *more silence*
Me: Do you want time to think about it?
H: Sure.
I'm starting to get really frustrated. I'd be just fine going through and making the decisions and leaving things that I know are his and dividing things evenly. I want to be respectful of what he wants, but if he can't talk to me about it, what do I do? I can't wait until the last minute to pack everything up days before the move. And I fear that if we do wait until the last minute he'll pull something bizarre and then I'll have to agree to it just because I have no time to do anything else. He'll talk to me just fine about any other random thing (right before this he was looking over my shoulder at my shopping list to see "what the good deals were" for his own shopping purposes and being joke-y about it) but as soon as anything related to "us" or logistics of separating come up he just clams up. But this is what he wanted... I don't get it. And then thoughts creep into my mind like "maybe he's reluctant to talk about it because he's second-guessing..!"
I'm also frustrated because MIL is con't to enable him despite a phone conversation we had where she said she "spoiled" him by doing everything for him and now he doesn't know how to "be an adult." She sent him coupons in the mail so he could go shopping this weekend. When he goes to visit her she gives him bags of food. How does life teach him lessons if she's always there to help him out? I'd like to say something to her but I know I shouldn't... right? Grrr. Any ideas on what I can say to myself to not be so annoyed and frustrated at him? I'm letting him go, staying out of his way, not making things harder for him, but he keeps trying to engage me in unconsequential things (like shopping lists) but not in important things (like what I can take for moving!) Maybe I just keep leaving him be, knowing that in less than a month I won't have to deal with him on a daily basis so I just need to keep on keeping on until then? I know it's not my job to make him feel the consequences. But I'm frustrated that other people are making it easy for him. Even his boss is helping him - he keeps bringing him cut-up fruit in tupperware containers to eat (I don't know why everyone thinks H doesn't eat/needs food? He's certainly capable of going to the store and doing these things. He just prefers to eat Kraft mac and cheese because it's easy). When they have to travel for work his boss even packs him a cold lunch for the trip. Why is everyone helping him out throughout this? Maybe I'm bitter because I don't get that same help from anyone... he is the one that wants this, why is everyone else taking care of him?
Been away for awhile. Not much to say, I guess, or at least not many questions to ask. Just taking things one day at a time and trying not to worry about what may or may not be. Thinking about myself and what I value and want out of life, what things have I neglected or not spent enough time on that are important to me. I was doing an activity where I was supposed to list hobbies.. and I couldn't come up with anything besides reading and couponing. Certainly something to work on. I've also been making an effort to get involved in things at work that happen on the evenings and weekends, so I can flex time during the week. I used to shy away from those things 'cause I didn't want to take time away that I could spend with H. Now I just do them. I can envision myself being happy and fulfilled on my own, and I have a lot of ideas for after I move to help facilitate that. Would I ideally like to be happy with my H? Yes, but if that's not possible, then I'll still be OK.
H still has not broached dividing up stuff with me. I'm not sure what the deal is with that, but I can wait for now... just not indefinitely. I'm trying to keep an open mind and acknowledge that this may be hard for him in ways I may not be able to anticipate or understand, especially given he didn't actually want or ask me to move. My immediate reaction is "he wants a D, shouldn't he want to help facilitate this and make it as easy as possible?" but it may not be that simple.
H has made some changes that I would have really appreciated when we were M. I do appreciate and like them now but, like the WAS, I think to myself "Why are you finally doing this NOW?" Things like making doctor's appointments when he doesn't feel well and just doing it, rather than moan and complain and debate for days about whether or not he should make the appointment and how much work it is. He's run a bunch of errands and taken care of a bunch of things around the house. He's going to IC weekly.
H has been more talkative lately - telling me stories about work and friends and family. He got a new job about a year ago that he likes much better, but recently things haven't been going well. He was supposed to have a particular item ready by a certain date, but they allow a 30 day grace period for turning it in, so he let it slide until the very end of the grade period and his boss wasn't happy. In my world, I'd get it done at the first deadline and only use the grace period if there was an emergency but... everyone's different, right? In the past I would have said things like "well, I can see why your boss would be mad. Why didn't you put it in your calendar? Why haven't you talked to her about her personal expectations? etc." Instead I've been responding like I'm on his team - acknowledging that it s*cks that she's mad at him, that I hope things go better, etc. We had a lot of conversation at dinner today about the house, our jobs, etc... but then he still made a joke about when I move. It hurts that we can have these seemingly positive interactions, but then he'll do something like sit as far away as possible at the kitchen table.
I am still nervous about moving but I know it is the best thing for me right now. While this isn't a hostile environment, it's hard for me to do my own thing and "move on" while here indefinitely. At any rate I'd rather S first, then D, as opposed to just jump right to D without any experience being apart. At a conference at work this week we talked about how people make decisions, and a key point was that the more relevant and immediate the outcome or impact, the easier it becomes to make a decision. So far, outcomes haven't really been relevant or immediate for H. Living apart is likely to affect that.
You're learning a lot and changing in ways you never anticipated, I would guess.
How is that for you?
I am not quite sure yet how it is. I do know that I am coping with this much better than I previously did. Starting our senior year of college we were "broken up" for almost a year and a half - I say that in quotes because he would regularly say we were "not together" but then come in to town to do something, ask about staying overnight at my place, one thing leads to another, etc...more of an off again, on again thing. That was a pretty dark year for me. I was living by myself for most of it, doing grad school full-time and working part-time, so I was staying busy. But there were many nights where I'd sit in the bathroom sobbing, with a bottle of ibuprofen, wondering if I could just end it all right then. Lots of drinking by myself watching TV. Lots of e-mails to H telling him that he was a terrible person, that I hoped he never dated anyone else because I wouldn't want him to hurt the next person he dated so badly, things like that. This time around is much different. I'm taking myself out of the equation so he can only look to himself for his issues - he can't come back out of guilt or pressure or whatever other reason he may have said led him to come back in the past.
I still struggle a lot with controlling things, but try to recognize now whether it's worthwhile or not. For example, today we had a training for a summer event, and in my opinion the training was pretty bad - very little detail. I used to do the training for this same event for a different unit so I was constantly comparing how I would have done it with what they did. I started getting very anxious.. then realized I knew everything I needed to know to do this. I was more worried about the OTHER people being incompetent because of the training. So on the one hand, it doesn't really affect me, so I should let it go. But on the other, these people are working with students that later become my responsibility because they get assigned to me, and anything they get wrong I have to clean up later.. so it's a tricky balance of control vs. actually helping myself! I will always be a detail oriented and thorough person, it's just my personality and helps me immensely in my work, but there are places I can tone it down and not be so anxious about what other people are doing.
On another note... what do you do when your spouse asks where you've been or what you've been doing? How much detail do you give? We had happy hour after work today, and I came home about two hours later and was given a ride no less (by a guy! I mean, a married guy, but it may have made H wonder...) When I came in H asked "Where've you been? Who gave you a ride home?" How do you balance being "mysterious" with not being rude? I felt like saying "it's none of your business" would be too far on the wrong end. But I also don't want to give out everything of what I've been doing. I don't ask him anything about where he goes and he tells me nothing. Hmm...what to do?
Hmmm... what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Do you get the feeling that this is starting to feel real to him? Perhaps he is getting a little nervous?
You come across as really confident. Considering how you dealt with the break up in college, maybe he thought you would crumble once gain?
Well, I don't want to mind read but, the outcome is becoming more and more relevant and immediate each day. I have lots of boxes out and packed. Between my last post and now H asked what used to be on a particular shelf and I said my garden gnomes (I collect them) and he said he was worried that I might accidentally be packing things that are his. I did have a bit of a crying jag in the other room after that ("I'm giving him what he wants and doing all the work, why is he making me the bad guy, if he's so worried why doesn't he pick a time to start sorting out stuff?") But it didn't last long. The discrepancies between what he says and does is startling. H has said he hasn't been "assertive" enough in our relationship and in life in general so hard to say if coming across as confident is a good thing...maybe if it is a quiet confidence with integrity as opposed to a brash, pushy confidence?
But there were many nights where I'd sit in the bathroom sobbing, with a bottle of ibuprofen, wondering if I could just end it all right then. Lots of drinking by myself watching TV. Lots of e-mails to H telling him that he was a terrible person, that I hoped he never dated anyone else because I wouldn't want him to hurt the next person he dated so badly, things like that. This time around is much different. I'm taking myself out of the equation so he can only look to himself for his issues - he can't come back out of guilt or pressure or whatever other reason he may have said led him to come back in the past.
Hmmm did you want him back because you loved him or because you didn't like being alone, the anxiety was too much?
I've had to ask myself these same questions in the past.
But on the other, these people are working with students that later become my responsibility because they get assigned to me, and anything they get wrong I have to clean up later.. so it's a tricky balance of control vs. actually helping myself!
There's that crystal ball again
How do you know this?
Did students get nothing wrong when you did the training?
Again, I've had similar reactions in the past, but when I take my ego out of it, there are many different learning styles and different teaching styles, Some people will be more responsive to your style, some to another style.
So, I let it go.
Take a stab at it, what would your answer be?
Hmmm did you want him back because you loved him or because you didn't like being alone, the anxiety was too much?
Looking back, some of both, but the fear of being alone was the biggest thing driving my behavior and thoughts the previous time around (and probably why it was so crazy). Now, I am not so scared of being alone, and it's the actual love for my H despite what has happened that keeps me "standing." But, that love seems to be fading the longer this goes and the less I feel connected to him.
There's that crystal ball again smile
How do you know this?
Well...there are some aspects that I do know, because we have an electronic note system at work where everything is documented! So when training isn't done well, and then a staff member tells a student at summer orientation that will be assigned to me later "sure, that course will count as X" because they didn't learn otherwise, and then student comes to me 2 months later saying they thought that thing counted and now they are a semester behind and want me to do something about it "it wasn't their fault, someone else told them the wrong thing" (and there's nothing I can do!) I can very clearly see where the other staff member wrote that incorrect information down for them, so I know the student didn't just misunderstand or make it up. Other staff giving wrong information to students I have to work with later drives me crazy. I can let go of not having control over how those other staff members are trained, or what their knowledge is, but when it starts affecting my day-to-day work, it's very frustrating. It's hard to just let go of the fact that it's negatively affecting MY "clients." That's a big part of why I switched jobs in the fall - I was working with a team of staff members and now I work alone.
Take a stab at it, what would your answer be?
Here's how the conversation went after I came in the door...
H: So who just gave you a ride home?
Me: X, from the business school
H: X, from the business school? Why'd he give you a ride?
Me: He lives pretty close to here, actually.
H: The business school? Did you have an event with them or something?
Me: No, it was a social event with a bunch of people from different offices.
I struggle because H asks me very direct questions that seem hard to dodge without being b*tchy. I guess I could have been more vague (when he asked who dropped me off, just said "someone from work" and when he asked what I was doing, just said "hanging out with people from work")? Maybe that would have been the right amount of vague? I thought about saying "it's none of your business" but that seemed too adversarial.
You had choices, you made the best one for you.
When people ask us direct questions, not on a "need to know" basis, we don't have to answer.
I think that's difficult because many of us were taught to be "nice" but boundaries are important.
All that about the electronic note system and you knowing what the other staff member did or didn't do, how does that help you, really? I used to keep score on everyone I worked with. No effing kidding.
All I got was more and more unhappy because I had to be perfect to meet my standards! What if someone caught me in a mistake??? ARGHHHH!!!
We all make mistakes and someone else has to "fix it" for us. That's a part of living life with other people.
What's the alternative?
I wanted to add a couple of thoughts that may or may not relate to your situation:
1) letting go of my own perfectionism has improved my general outlook on life. Now that i am more forgiving of myself, I'm more forgiving of others too.
2) when my H asks me questions of any kind, I now try to choose not to read anything into it, and just assume it is an innocent question and nothing more. And I answer without getting defensive.
Lots of things to think about. Thanks, ladies. "Keeping score" is a good way to describe it - I definitely did that a lot in my old job. The opportunity isn't there as much in my new job but when group activities or training come up it rears its head again. I do have very high standards for myself and what I think a good "person in my job" looks like, and when others don't meet those standards I get frustrated. I suppose that spills into other aspects of my life, too. Certain expectations for H that I didn't always tell him (because if I had to tell him then what's the point, he should just do it to be a "good H", was my thinking) and then when he didn't meet them, intentional or not, I was unhappy.
Today would be a good day to practice how I can change this. It's our graduation ceremony, and it's the first year we are doing it outside in the football stadium, with ALL the undergraduate and master's degree students. Picture seating 6,000 students in a football field, with all their family in the stands, outdoors, with a chance of rain. And I volunteered to help usher and organize the students
I was very nervous after we were given instructions yesterday because they weren't specific enough for me, but I'll work on going with the flow and knowing that it will all turn out OK.
KGirl, you remind me so much of me at your age.
Keep looking inward.
Have I mentioned the book Radical Acceptance to you? I'm currently re-reading it and I don't re-read books very often. I know you have some reservations about meditation,etc but I invite you to open up a little and read a few chapters.
Thank you - I'll look into that book. I struggle when there aren't explicit instructions (for really anything in life!) so having books to read is helpful for me.
I'm thinking of doing something I never thought I'd be able to do a few months ago.. booking a solo trip.. to Las Vegas! There's a week in the summer that would be perfect work-wise for a vacation. Las Vegas would be a good destination for me because I've already been there with H, and therefore less likely to be overly sad about wishing he was there to experience something. There are also some things there he's not particularly fond of doing (like laying at the pool all afternoon) so this would be an opportunity to do things I've wanted to do there. I've literally got the stuff up on my browser, ready to purchase a flight, but my fear is holding me back. Not necessarily fear that he'll change his mind and now I'll have this solo trip (he could always come with), but fear that if he DOES decide to D I will be so sad that I won't want to go. Or, that I'll need the money for a D (although, if he's going to pay for the logistics, I probably don't need that much $?) I've already bought the key big things I need for my apartment, so I don't think $ is as big a deal as it seems in my head. I do tend to "hoard" money "just in case" and it's about time I did something fun with it. I could pay an extra $25 to be able to change or cancel my flight whenever I want, but that extra $25 could buy me a couple of drinks in Vegas! I want to do it, but I'm scared, moreso of what happen w/ my situation between now and then, than actually going by myself (I feel like I'd be OK there considering there are so many things to do and see). Any reassurances out there that it will be OK?
It will be okay. Nothing is set in stone. Book the trip now, because it will give you something to look forward to. Nothing says you HAVE to go, so if everything turns upside down again, you can cancel or postpone.
If I had the money, that's exactly what I'd be doing right now.
GO! You will have fun. Relax by the pool. See a show. People watch. Weather will be nice and warm. Enjoy.
Examine your fear. What is the downside? Do you think if your h renews his devotion and decides to rebuild your m that a week off on a solo trip will be the thing that ruins everything? No. There's no reason not to go, no matter what happens in your sitch. There are plenty of reasons TO go.
GM, I read that as I went to the doctor with my cousin and wee laid on the beach all day. I want that doctor!
Yes, K, step out of your box, try new things, take each step as it comes.