We had finance plan discussion again last night.
I started by seeing if she agreed that when she had income, she should contribute to household expenses.
W kept trying to dodge saying she had no income. I said this is a model for future when you do. I showed her 3 web articles describing the plan. She still doesn't buy any of it, wants single account.
I told her we're living paycheck to paycheck; she still doesn't understand why "I'm turning the screws" and not paying her CC balance in full every month.
This turned into about a two hour conversation of grievances. Again, she was angry, we nobody was screaming. I validated a lot of what she said. I called her on some of the "because you think x" stuff, asking only that she not assume how I thought or felt without asking, but validated that she felt how she felt.
I stayed clear of A and OM, which was tough, since she wanted to get into a "I always tell you where I'm going" line. (She asked where I went yesterday when I went out on errands. I had simply replied "Out.") I suggested that she really didn't want to go down that path.
She again said that I thought that this could easily be fixed; I told her it would take a lot of time and hard work. She very sarcastically said "ok sign us up for MC". I said I didn't think we were ready yet.
I asked her what she wanted to do. She said "we can just muddle along like we have for the last 18 years". (trying to buy time) I said we couldn't do that; we both know things have changed.
We left it at that last night. She vented, that's about all I can say. The only good from these conversations is picking up what she thinks you did wrong. Otherwise, if you either validate or don't validate what she says, both just confirm her decision to leave.
This morning, she demanded to see the last year of bank statements. She thinks I'm hiding something. There's nothing to hide, but I don't want our personal finances discussed among her girlfriends either. Even if I go through it with her, it's not going to do any good; she'll misinterpret that as badly as a "shared expense account".
She is so gone. "I'm finally awake and not taking it anymore." Time alone will not fix this. In my estimation, nothing is going to fix this.
The first step of my plan has to be to get hard evidence of A. It at least helps me in D negotiations. Maybe it disrupts her plan A.
Well she clearly wants you to pay off her debt and see how much is left that she can use. I personally think it is a waste of time to try to get her to agree to a plan. You have tried twice, and she continues to use the same defense mechanism.
Otherwise, if you either validate or don't validate what she says, both just confirm her decision to leave.
Validation is not agreement, it is just seeking to understand her feelings. "You sound angry about this, is that how you feel?" "Yes, I'm really angry!" "I'm sorry you feel angry, but I can see why you would feel that way." That's validation in a nutshell. What it does is diffuse the situation, when the other party realizes that you actually care about how they feel and not just about defending yourself, then they calm down pretty quickly.
She is so gone. "I'm finally awake and not taking it anymore." Time alone will not fix this. In my estimation, nothing is going to fix this.
You never know. I think most people come here expecting a big change in weeks or months. The real timeline is years, and a lot can happen over that length of time. I'm sure it seems to you like your W changed quickly, I know it seems that way to me in my own sitch. Well guess what, they can change back to loving you just as quickly. Look at the timeline in my sig, and we're divorced. Is it over? I honestly don't know, I've known people that reconciled after more time than that and are really happy now. Your sitch is very young by comparison.
The first step of my plan has to be to get hard evidence of A. It at least helps me in D negotiations.
Have you checked with a L on this? Not sure if you're even in the US, but if so, many states have no-fault D now. If you're in a no-fault state, then it doesn't matter if you prove an A or not. It will have no bearing on the case.
Thanks, AS.
Have you checked with a L on this? Not sure if you're even in the US, but if so, many states have no-fault D now. If you're in a no-fault state, then it doesn't matter if you prove an A or not. It will have no bearing on the case.
I have talked to L. This state has no-fault and adultery grounds. Most judges reject adultery and make you refile no-fault. However, some adultery grounds cases are allowed. It may, but most likely will not have any grounds in a court settlement.
L has successfully used it as a negotiating tool. "Accept this settlement, and this evidence stays here, we don't tell x, y, z"
And then there's the question of whether it can be used to break W's denial of A, and whether that changes their figuring.
"Validation is not agreement, it is just seeking to understand her feelings. "You sound angry about this, is that how you feel?" "Yes, I'm really angry!" "I'm sorry you feel angry, but I can see why you would feel that way." That's validation in a nutshell."
There's actually 6 or 7 levels of validation. I wrote about in one of my threads. It really helps to understand the levels and use the highest one applicable.
Thanks 2TH, I will look up that thread - hopefully it isn't too hard to find...
Meanwhile, W told a friend yesterday that "If he had come to me like this a year ago, we wouldn't be in this mess."
Makes me think I might be on the right track now, but she's still just too angry to accept anything I do.
Maybe I'm reading more into that than I should.
In any case, it sounds like LRT + 180s + consistency + patience are good. Keeps me hopeful anyway.
And then there's the question of whether it can be used to break W's denial of A, and whether that changes their figuring.
Well she would probably quit denying it, but if other sitches are any indication then she'll be angry that you outed her, and of course she'll blame you for driving her into someone else's arms. I know it makes no sense, but it's standard behavior for WAS's involved in adultery.
Meanwhile, W told a friend yesterday that "If he had come to me like this a year ago, we wouldn't be in this mess."
That is so straight out of the WAS guidebook. We all get the "too little too late" and "why didn't you do this before I was done?" comments at some point.
Makes me think I might be on the right track now, but she's still just too angry to accept anything I do.
Maybe I'm reading more into that than I should.
No I'd say that's pretty accurate. Like 25 says, "consistent actions + time = change your S can believe in". So you're doing the right things, but you have to keep doing them consistently for a long period of time. Really the goal is to keep doing them until they are part of you, it becomes the new you.
As predicted, W has almost maxed out her CC. At least she's tracking it now. She still thinks I'm turning the screws, but I'm just transferring the same amount on the same date each month as I've done since Christmas when I discussed the budget with her.
She wanted me to transfer money now, and I told her that this paycheck had to cover mortgage, taxes and life insurance; she would have to wait for next paycheck (regular date).
I'm holding the line there. In case I need it down the road, I want to establish that there is a budget with regular transfer payments to her CC for expenses, and whether she manages her spending to that is completely up to her.
Meanwhile, I've gone a little more dim around the house. I speak when spoken to. She complained (not to me) that I hadn't said goodbye to her when I left out to work yesterday. I have always wished her a good or productive day. She senses that loss, but then attributed it to me "pouting".
And she's overwhelmed by the startup learning curve at her new job. Wondering if she can pull it off. Hoping they don't have buyer's remorse. Then blaming her inability to cope on her situation at home. She is not a happy camper right now.
Meanwhile, I'm sticking to kids, homework, still exercising and looking for new GAL opportunities now that spring is here. Did some house repair last weekend, more to be done.
I am very tempted to have this conversation with W. More of a statement, really.
1. I understand you are angry about our M. I am very sorry you feel that way.
2. I continue to further my understanding of my part in getting here.
3. I am willing to work with you to fully understand our problems and to find solutions.
4. This work cannot begin as long as there is a third party in the M.
5. You were right that OM is a symptom of our problems, not the cause.
6. Now, it absolutely blocks any constructive solution to those problems.
7. I am encouraged that we can find solutions because now you have found your voice and I have found my ears.
8. While I still believe that we can overcome our problems if we both commit to a solid effort,
every day that we put off the hard work, the problems only grow, and our ability to deal with them diminishes.
Why? Reasons by number:
1. Validate, again.
2. Accept responsibility. W's story is that I blame her for everything because she didn't communicate to me in a language I understood.
I just want to be clear that I do accept blame for the things I own. I know my saying anything may not change her story, but I want to make sure she hears me say it.
3. open offer. I know she doesn't want to right now, but the offer is there.
4. I'm not ok with the A. I can't work with you as long as there is OM. Again, she thinks she's getting away with it, but that isn't the point. Because she thinks I don't know, she interprets my actions incorrectly. The other day, when I didn't wish her good morning and say goodbye to her as I left, she assumed that I was pouting because she had finally stood up for herself and I didn't like that. I would rather have her think that I am disengaging because it's another day with no work, and therefore I assume she has chosen A. I also want to shift the burden of proof. Instead of me having to prove the A, I kind of want to say that my assumption is that it is ongoing until she tells me it isn't.
5. Validate what she has told me several times. (she said that in a way so as not to admit an A. OM is not our problem, our M had problems before OM)
6. Fact
7. Reason to believe things can be different. She knows she's changed. She can now be assertive; before she felt she was always passive and that I had taken advantage of that. I celebrate her assertiveness; how could that not make things easier? She will doubt me; I want to plant the seed.
8. Acknowledge that it will be hard work. Time is not her friend.
5 and 6 can be deleted. She'll fly off the handle right after 4.
If she wants to deny A again. I'll just stop her and say that while she is free to tell me whatever she wants, I have to believe what I see.
I really don't want to confront her on A on the basis of proof. I could ask her 10 questions on her specific whereabouts over the last week that she would have to lie about, but again without proof I'm willing to present she'd be in denial.
Is this just R talk and therefore a bad idea? Some of it is just stating boundaries and facts that may not be clear.
I don't think I've been judgemental in anything above.
I don't think I'm being controlling. Nowhere do I tell her to do anything.
I hope it leaves her with the sense that the ball is in her court, and that doing nothing is still making a decision.
There is no ultimatum in here, and no deadline.
Do I expect it to make her change anything? No. Hope to clarify that either actively or passively, choices are being made.
Again, nobody has ever said D. We are in this limbo. W was with OM again yesterday.
Afterward she told a friend that she thinks OM wants to get caught. (to end A? to end his M to be with my W? who knows)
Then she said she feels guilty, she wondered if her life with me was really that bad.
I want to encourage that kind of thinking and I don't want to screw up.
Hoping Starsky will weigh in - is this just me overthinking again, looking for magic words? Some of this just hasn't been said and doesn't seem to be clear to her.
Or am I better off to just STFU and have her incorrectly assume whatever she wants.
Hoping Starsky will weigh in - is this just me overthinking again, looking for magic words?
Yes. You can't explain your way out of something SHE acted her way into.
It's good for you to capture these thoughts, and to BE READY with them. But you're going to have to play all those cards on a day and time when SHE is truly repentant and contrite, and asks you "What will it take?"
Until then, she would only see this as some combination of patronizing/holier-than-thou, and too-little-too-late from you. In her current, PEA-fueled wayward mindset, YOU are the problem, and the reason for everything from a cr*ppy marriage to global warming and the situation in the Ukraine.
Starsky
I don't think I've been judgemental in anything above.
I don't think I'm being controlling. Nowhere do I tell her to do anything.
No??? Why, because you've phrased it ohhhh-so-carefully and cleverly?
You are JUST like me, Zew, lol.
I can GUAR-AN-DAMN-TEE you, that SHE will hear all of that as PRECISELY controlling and judgmental. It matters not what you say; the only thing that matters is how it comes across to HER.
Here, remember this:
"You can't teach a wayward." That little gem of truth was given to me by the guy (NOPkins) that mentored me thru my own wife's affair and my own issues, and it's sooooo true. You can only land little "truth darts" every now and again, and even those have to be infrequent and in context -- NOT some pre-planned speech from you.
Starsky
If you doubt me, ask Sandi to weigh in on how that little speech would come across to a wife in the throes of an EA or a PA.
Thank you, sir.
On the other hand, instead of talking to W, I could just clean the gutters this weekend and knock a few things off the honey-do list.
Zew- handwrite all of that on to a piece of paper and then burn it. It's a great mental release.
Wow great advices from Starsky, he is really telling you whats going on
listen to him and this will be more productive for you.
Thank you all again.
It matters not what you say; the only thing that matters is how it comes across to HER.
I should remember this from our finance discussion last week.
All I was saying was there are different ways two people could split a restaurant check.
All she heard was that I wanted 40% of her paycheck.
Haven't we been through this once before, or was that someone else? Okay, so....don't do it. To me, you are not only trying to control, but you are trying to force her to admit the A and to stop the A. That's what it boils down to, anyway. Nobody can blame you for feeling like you do, however, it just won't work on her.
It is really driving you crazy that she continues to deny the A. You keep thinking of ways to try to squeeze it out of her, but it all sounds the same to me.
If I were the WAW and you presented that speech to me, I would let you know very quickly that I had not asked you to work with me, forgive me, understand me, or believe me. I am not interested in how sorry you may feel now.....or how willing you are to find solutions to make this M better. I am not hard of hearing or senile, and I don't have to have your consent or blessings on what I choose to do. You are not my father nor my Pastor, so stop preaching.
This won't do anything but start another argument, Zew. I have read many similar posts from other LBH's who try to make the W end the A and work on the M. Unfortunately, it just doesn't work this way.
Thanks, Sandi. We have been through this before, and I know better.
1) There is nothing I can say.
2) She will let me know if/when she is ever ready/willing.
3) Until then, go paint the shed or something.
Nothing unexpected here, just can't see how this ever gets better...
W talks to her friends and just outright lies about everything I ever did or said. It's just a feeding frenzy. Still puzzles me that people who have never met me are so quick to pile on. Hard to imagine that this can stop. Complete lack of reason. "If I stay, what does that say to the kids about staying in a bad relationship...", said the WAW in an A with a married man. The irony. And she's plotting about house, kids... I'm afraid the full damage will be done before she realizes what's happened.
But I also realize that if this doesn't stop, if she does go through with it, then she is not anyone that I want.
It still drives me nuts though, because some of the things she complains about could be easily fixed if she committed (nope), if I could trust her (nope). And because they can't be fixed now, they just continue to be grist for the mill.
Zew,
Keep your head up, it seems at times its easy to get frustrated. The complete lack of ability for the WAW to realize the ramifications of her actions, and the willingness of her LBS to work to resolve issues is mindblowing. But then again, the whole idea of an A and dealing with a WAW is crazy enough.
I understand that feeling of this is never going to get better. From what I see, getting ourselves better is really when we get success. Can't control it, let it go. So hard to do for myself, considering in my profession I am used to dictating and controlling recovery for people.
We both need to get better at understanding that our W's are the only ones that can fix themselves, and while we can set up a situation that will give them an idea of what D life will be like, the reality is they will make their choice, and we will make our choices.
Good luck fighting the good battle, and keep your head up. Your doing great!
Dev
Thanks, Dev.
I'm OK, just every once in a while the whole thing seems so incredible. She's built a mob of supporters based on lies; if she ever changes her mind about us, it will be interesting to see how she disarms them.
From what I see, getting ourselves better is really when we get success. Can't control it, let it go.
Yes, this is the key. Working on self. Knowing what you can't control and letting go of it.
Very difficult for me, since occupationally I nudge individuals around obstacles toward a common goal. There is
always a way to influence progress.
You can't nudge a WAW, and we don't have a common goal.
News from the A front:
W asked OM if they could meet.
OM said he couldn't today, "but thanks, though."
Oops. Well you can't say that, now can you. Those three words were killers. They made it all about
him. W has the feeling that OM is just using her for sex. She only hears from him after about 3 days from last encounter. Lately, she has to call him. W doesn't understand why he came back after they split in Jan. W doesn't want to give him up, but says he isn't hers to give up. She thinks it will all end when school lets out and the kids are home, anyway. And although I'm sure they'll make up again, he's starting to tarnish.
And her job is going badly. It's stressful, and although I have no doubt that she'd be up to it under normal circumstances, right now between M trouble and A, she just hasn't got the reserves. Too bad she's screwing up such a good opportunity.
She feels she is failing at everything; her M, her A, her job. She broke down and was just sobbing. "I'm a good person and smart and why is everyone treating me like crap?" She came home and took her sleeping pills and went to bed at 8pm. She is twisting.
As hard as it is to see her in such anguish, this encourages me. Hopefully this is just the kind of despair she needs to keep moving forward. Not back to me, but at least forward to reality.
I am still the hated root of all evil, holding her to a budget for the first time in 13 years, clearly just to make her miserable.
But that's OK. I'm quite comfortable in who I am becoming.
D12 is a night owl like me. We have lots of time together after W goes to bed and she will talk about anything with me now. S9 asked me to come snuggle with him when he went to bed last night.
I'll be off mysteriously GALing tomorrow evening, and it will be oh SO relaxing. I love my time out. Where I ever got the idea that I should be staying home with W and kids all the time I'll never know, but I am glad to have disabused myself of that one.
I had a long chat with a friend this morning. He's amazed I've held on this long; said he would be out immediately. I told him it could be much longer, and you don't know how you'll react until you've lived it. He said every man he knew bailed by now, and each one of them now regrets not having the kids in their house each morning. Well there's the motivation right there.
W and I just got into it.
When I came the door, she presented me with a receipt and said I owed her $58 because her CC was declined.
I asked how she figured that, she knew her card had no money.
I told her yesterday, that after finishing bill paying, that I had $250 to put on her card, but it wouldn't be there until Tuesday, and that I would transfer the rest of the monthly amount next Friday after I get paid, and it would be there the following Tuesday.
Well she never heard the first Tuesday stuff. Claimed I never told her. I never tell her anything. Why can't I have access to account...
Then I said this:
I won't change the financial situation so long as there are 3 people in this M. If you get rid of OM, we can discuss approaches to repairing our problems and changes to finances.
Then came the denial, to which I just said I didn't want to hear it anymore. She said I could believe whatever I wanted; I said I believed the truth.
Pick a number 2 or 1, but 3 isn't working for me.
Well, whatever damage is done is done.
And now, I will go down to dinner.
BTW, she also said she was willing to go to MC, and again I said there could only be 2 of us there, not 3.
...and dinner was the regular "nothing to see here" charade, after which she pilled up and went to bed.
Well its out in the open now....... I don't know how you knew all the details you have stated in your posts but I would assume spying of some sort? That definitely will hurt you in the long run if that is the case (I know this from experience :)) If not from that, I can't imagine knowing that stuff and not eventually talking about it. So I wouldn't be beating yourself up over that one.
I have seen the word addiction used when people talk about spouses having an affair. It does seem to fit. As a recovering addict myself, I can definitely see the road to justification being used by these 'addicts'.
As an addict, if the comparison holds, I can tell you that nothing will keep me from using unless I make the decision to stop and ask for help as well. No logic, no emotional pleas, nor anything else will keep me from doing the very thing that taints the rest of my life.
Anyway, that was a bit of rambling there. I guess I am just reiterating what others have said.....hang on because there is nothing that you can do. Good luck sir!
thanks tough,
yes, I think rebellious teenagers with a crack addiction is more like it.
She's got trouble in her A, trouble in her job, and now, more trouble from me. I should have left town yesterday for about a month.
I know snooping is against Sandi's rules, but at least for my situation, it led to me standing up for myself. I was content with GALing and being positive around W while I assumed she was not in contact with OM and was trying to figure things out. How it will contribute to the end of my situation, I don't know, but finding evidence finally gave me the courage to put my foot down, be a man and establish a boundary similar to you.
I guess what I'm getting at is it's not about whether you snooped or not, but how you handle what you've discovered. I know how it can eat at you, but you've got to resist using it as ammo in discussions you have. Easier said than done.
Zew, I'm right there with you on your 'you don't know how you'll react until you've lived it' comment.
I opened my briefcase this morning at work and W put a muffin in it for a snack. It's been almost a month since she's done that. I always used to call her and let her know how much I appreciated that she had thought of me.
No call today.
She would have bought it yesterday before her card bounced and before we had our "chat", and put it in my briefcase in the middle of the night. (as she snooped my phone)
I will enjoy GAL tonight. I've been far too fixated on W lately.
I know snooping is against Sandi's rules, but at least for my situation, it led to me standing up for myself. I was content with GALing and being positive around W while I assumed she was not in contact with OM and was trying to figure things out. How it will contribute to the end of my situation, I don't know, but finding evidence finally gave me the courage to put my foot down, be a man and establish a boundary similar to you.
This was my experience as well. If continued contact with her OM was a dealbreaker for me (and it was), and on the other hand if I was to be loving and giving and FORgiving and even a little PURSUING in trying to reconcile . . . I personally saw no OTHER way than to independently get some intel on whether or not the affair was still going on.
To be, it was critical info necessary in my potentially life- and family-altering decision-making.
Starsky
that last line should read "to ME"
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
I had told W that I was willing to go to MC only after she was rid of OM and there were just 2 of us in the M.
Now she would like to book an MC session. She thinks I won't go because I will never admit to being wrong on anything. Then she can say I refused. She wants to go to someone recommended by her therapist. Her therapist has a very lopsided view of me, is pro-D, and has told W to never admit A, since I will hold it over her forever.
Of course, I would like some say in the selection of MC, someone solution-based, pro-M. And it is pointless to go until A is over and W gets through withdrawal period.
I can simply decline because the ended A condition that I stipulated hasn't been met. She'll lie and just say that I refused going, but all she does is lie anyway, so I guess this is all status quo.
Thoughts?
Lets go point by point and for that its important to bring up your issues with this ok?
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
I had told W that I was willing to go to MC only after she was rid of OM and there were just 2 of us in the M.
The help provided to repair situations in my opinion should arrive once we have the problems and if both parts agree to receive help. Whats your fear of her going to MC even if she stills in an affair? You are going to a safe place to talk about the relationship, that for me sounds like the best environment to take care of this issues.
Now she would like to book an MC session. She thinks I won't go because I will never admit to being wrong on anything.
Ok, do we care about what she thinks? Nop , she will expose her thoughs and ideas in therapy and that doesnt mean everything she think its true, validation when she talks doesnt mean you agree with all she says. Also stop mindreading, at this point you have read and work on yourself enough in this forum to know that minreading its leaded by fear.
Then she can say I refused. She wants to go to someone recommended by her therapist. Her therapist has a very lopsided view of me, is pro-D, and has told W to never admit A, since I will hold it over her forever.
You are putting the bandit before the fall, wait and see how it goes, if you dont like the Therapist she chooses you can let her know after the session, you are judging her capacity to choose and also the profesionalism of a T that you havent visited yet, at this point PMA...she is willing to go to MC, thats all should be on your thoughs.
Of course, I would like some say in the selection of MC, someone solution-based, pro-M.
She told you lets go to therapy, your need to control wants to drop this idea already thinking that there is a better way, do you think that behaviour lead her to escape of the M? Always thinking you were right choosing and she was wrong?
Imagine that you go to this MC with PMA, after a few sessions you can see how it goes and say something (if you dont like it ) like this:
I am proud of you choosing this T, how do you feel its working for you? And see what she says.
And it is pointless to go until A is over and W gets through withdrawal period.
Why that conclusion? When you buy a car you think its pointless because its going to break?
You seem to be looking for perfection, trust me I was in the same page and it ended with my W not going to MC at all, just let go and let God, trust that this is happening the way its supposed to and you don't know the future so stop interfering and just go to T with a PMA and thinking that at least W its willing to go, later on you can see if its the appropriate for you or not.
I can simply decline because the ended A condition that I stipulated hasn't been met. She'll lie and just say that I refused going, but all she does is lie anyway, so I guess this is all status quo.
Yes, thats your choice to not go, also its your choice to fill and get D, here when you ask for help we show you other options to choose, whatever you choose at the end its on you, we don't choose for you, but one thing, in this case you are trying to control and you are making that decision based on fear.
Think about it, she wants to D, she is in an affair and the R its death, but stills...she is willing to go to MC, maybe its time for you to give her some credit...who knows, maybe MC helps you to go over the A and helps her to drop the A....
The move is almost certainly tactical on her part so she can rid herself of the guilt of not trying MC. She truly thinks I'll decline. She hasn't given up OM. She won't admit it in MC - she's had too much coaching.
So we're looking at the alternative of sticking with the conditions of entry (no OM), or going (with or w/o a proper MC selection), and maybe she sees that I am willing to admit fault and work on things, and that somehow changes her perspective.
Veterans on this board suggest that doesn't happen. MC for a WAW in an A will only serve to confirm to them why they are leaving, because you admit fault, and they hear nothing after that.
Zew, I don't think you have anything to gain by going to MC right now, especially to someone your W has chosen. From what I've read in other threads, the only time MC will work is when both of you are committed to the same agenda. It doesn't sound like she is and no matter what fault you accept, will only use this session to help justify her actions.
I think you should decline.
Z,
Looking at this from my relatively rookie DB perspective, I'm no expert, but it sounds like you set a boundary and an expectation that in order for MC to occur, there could be no OM involved. If the OM is still involved I see no point in going to MC. I have been told this by several people on my thread, and I understand it. Going to MC now if the OM is still involved just shows her you are waffling.
Perhaps saying something like "As you know, provided there are only 2 of us in this relationship, I would welcome the opportunity to meet with a MC". Unfortunately, if you change what you tolerate, you will give an unclear message, and that is the last thing a WAW needs to see. She will see that you are waffling on your boundaries. Just my 2 cents
Of course, her not admitting the A makes it a
lot tougher and more confusing for sure. I can see where you are stuck.
If you know the OM is still involved, I would not go. That's my short answer.
Hope I didn't muddle your waters too much. Good luck!
Dev
Tarheel, Devaste, I tend to agree. If she asks, I would reiterate separation from OM as a precondition to MC. Anything less means she's hedging and isn't serious. If we go to MC, we need to both go in willing to face our issues with full honesty and commitment to R.
She isn't ready to accept that answer, but I believe it is the only answer.
Nor is she ready to go to MC.
And I don't know if she'll ever get to the point of being able to say there was an OM, and not fear that I'll never forgive her.
On the other hand, while I understand Ye's "just go with it and see what happens" perspective, I think it would be just accepting whatever she is willing to offer. My gut says that this is just gamesmanship, it will just give her a moderated soapbox.
W's friends are advising her to get to L. They are afraid that I am going to have her served.
I am in no rush to do that, yet:
1. It wouldn't be DB
2. It would make me the bad guy
3. It's to my financial advantage to have her earn as much as possible at new job before figuring out alimony/support.
So, it would appear that she has credible threat of D by me. Yet, OM still in picture as of yesterday.
D12 asked W yesterday, "Mommy, if Daddy has no money to put on your CC, how come he can go out to dinner?" (My GAL dinner on Tuesday)
I feel all DB has had no effect on this, other than helping me come to grips. Just seems that every day, she is more resolved on her path. I believe that problems are typically easier to resolve the earlier are tackled. I am really reduced to just letting this ride?
I feel all DB has had no effect on this, other than helping me come to grips. Just seems that every day, she is more resolved on her path. I believe that problems are typically easier to resolve the earlier are tackled. I am really reduced to just letting this ride?
Zew many of us feel like this, however there is a important thing, if after all this happens you are able to survive, become a better Dad and a better person and you ended being happier with yourself, do you still thinking its not worth it?
Basically we always want to know the outcome because its easier to "control" what we know, what we dont know we dont care about it....
You are doing great, and at the end no matter what if she chooses to D thats her problem, what it really matters for me is that you walk this path and you find the exit without loosing yourself, there are many people who get divorce, and many who remarried, and many of them still carry the same issues in each relationship they get into it. You with DBing and posting here are reducing the probabilities of that happening, whoever this ends, you will be proud of yourself.
You are a human being entitled to do what in the eyes of others are mistakes, just look at the scientifics or doctors, they have to live a life where thye keep failing to ended finding a solution....and look at how many people benefit from that....
In this forum the " mistakes" help you to act in a different way next time and learn, and your W its not entitled to judge you for that.
Because of the way we are raised, in our system there is always this belief of "do good things and get a reward, do bad things and be punished" and thats why we are so hard in ourselves everytime we do something not according the way others expect.
My W blamed me of not trusting her....she didnt trust me either, but she didnt consider that a mistake because she consider that the abusse inflicted by her father justified that.... That made me suffer unumerous abusse thinking that taking it I was helping her...at the end I was judged and "punished" in my mind, the reality is that the only person who punish himself was me, I tought it was part of life to be punished, today I dont see things that way, I have compassion for myself and I realize that those "mistakes" are experiences that help me grow, the fact that we fail has to be taken as an experience to grow!!!
Or because you failed in certain areas you are gonna give up love? Do you realize how we punish ourselves? I failed in supporting her!! I deserve all this... I will never be loved again because I failed in my marriage...
Now look at the oter way, you did things in a different way, you are learning from them and they might not repeat anymore, that means you are growing up, if its not enough for her, that should not discourage you from being loved again.
When people get D I believe their next marriage sometimes doesnt work because they dont allow themselves to learn and improve themselves, the benefit of DB is that encourage you to spend all this time working on that, on improving yourself, and sometimes as a consecuence of this you get back with your spouse... However thats not the goal...dB its a like an intense training course to learn how to be a better you...
You are doing fine, and we are here at your side
W's friends are advising her to get to L. They are afraid that I am going to have her served.
I am in no rush to do that, yet:
1. It wouldn't be DB
2. It would make me the bad guy
3. It's to my financial advantage to have her earn as much as possible at new job before figuring out alimony/support.
So, it would appear that she has credible threat of D by me. Yet, OM still in picture as of yesterday.
Her FRIENDS think you are a credible threat, but does your WIFE? That is unclear from your post, Zew.
Affairs are not only highly addictive, but they are also FILLED with resentment, and FUELED by entitlement. Especially for a woman who think she's been wronged. And if your wife (like mine was/is) is also naturally stubborn anyway???
It took me BOTH filing AND busting her affair, AND playing a very forceful financial hand that I could play as the sole breadwinner for her to finally hit bottom and decide to come back to the marriage. It's not at all surprising to me that your wife still hasn't turned away from her path if you have only maybe ONE of those things working for you.
How did you answer your D12 btw?
Starsky
Starsky take a look at my thread please!!
sorry to post that here
Her FRIENDS think you are a credible threat, but does your WIFE? That is unclear from your post, Zew.
She says she isn't sure if I'll do it or not. She says she knows I'll be a total a$$hole in the proceedings.
It took me BOTH filing AND busting her affair, AND playing a very forceful financial hand that I could play as the sole breadwinner for her to finally hit bottom and decide to come back to the marriage. It's not at all surprising to me that your wife still hasn't turned away from her path if you have only maybe ONE of those things working for you.
This would be totally outside of the DB playbook, which is not out of the question, given that her current plan is to cake eat for a year. This would not be "become the man she'd be crazy to leave", but "live up to the description of the financially controlling a$$hole she describes me as now."
I have told her I know of affair, but not with enough detail to blow my cover. She denies. Might be able to scare OM with a written summary of details asking for an explanation. Could blow my cover. Could easily convince OM's W. Admissible evidence is very unlikely given their MO.
W has said she thinks OM
wants to get caught. I see that as a sign that he is too weak to make his D call on his own, he wants his W to do it. Or that he'll only break A if someone else does it for him.
I could ratchet down finances to child support/alimony levels. W will have her own income within a few weeks. She will never, never, never, never understand what she will be facing financially until it happens to her, though.
How did you answer your D12 btw?
She asked W, not me. I have no idea what her answer was.
This would be totally outside of the DB playbook . . .
Not really. It's pretty much the "After the Last Resort Technique," although I went straight to it, which is what I believe works best for unrepentant affairs anyway.
And I also re-made myself into the man she married. Two parallel paths. I always saw this as an "AND" and not an "OR" when it came to strategies.
Starsky
I must reread that section.
I also want to take the time out to read your history. I know that's a tome or two - is there a good date to start at?
I listen to her, and I hear the indecision. She's driven by anger, addiction to OM, and all the friends she's had pile on. I sense there's still a chance, but daily I see her succumbing to her friends' advice, which doesn't allow for any chance of R, because all of them went through to D. I wonder if any of them had a partner willing to work with them towards R.
Go to my Chocolateeyes threads, and look for May-Aug 2007. "I Won't Walk Out the Loser" is the central thread there of when I made the difficult decision to file for divorce.
I discovered my wife's affair in May of that year, and came back to the marriage in August.
Starsky
Choc's threads
Thank you, sir. First, a trip to the espresso machine...
Starsky,
OMG this sounds familiar... Are my brother from another mother?
Except for the SSM part. Never had that until EA started in the fall.
Ha. "Take it On the Run" by LRB.
W and I have the radio on low in our bedroom for background noise. Every time they play that lately after we turn in for the night, I start tapping my foot. I can't help it.
I suppose I really shouldn't do that.
W's now in month 5 of a PA that followed 2 months of EA. Some might say that's still early in the game. She's overcoming her guilt. I don't know that patience is helping me.
I'm mulling a plan. It may be unorthodox and cause many angst. I'll run it by the board when I'm ready.
ZEW-
A plan? The secrecy and mystery has me wondering what you are doing. You are lucky OM has a W to tell. My H OW is divorced, makes it hard to break it up. They are just friends anyway - UMMMM WHATEVER!!!
Sounds like you have been thru the wringer. I am sorry. But it sounds like you still have fairly good contact with your W - this is good.
I do have concern for your anger, which I can see. But as you can tell I have anger too, and am not concerned about it. LOL This is a difficult journey. I am just waiting for H roller coaster to crash and see what he comes out as.
You are lucky OM has a W to tell.
Not saying I would. Much rather have W end it than OM end it. It's supposedly a dead M. Also, W figures I won't tell her, because that would free up OM to be with W. See the logic there? [implies I would rather have my W in an A than not have my W at all.]
I do have concern for your anger, which I can see.
I don't doubt this, and I really haven't examined my posts looking for it. If you think it's recent, (and I admit, it could be oozing out of everything) i don't mind you pointing it out.
I would expect that it has diminished significantly since day 1. I think that if it ever drops to 0, I'd be totally done and off to court filing. I suspect it's largely driven by frustration of A, and that it goes away pretty quickly once that is over.
Pretty sure "Take it on the Run" is REO Speedwagon, not Little River Band.
But otherwise carry on.
things do change.
...and that throws me, so I post.
W tells her BFF...
- she can't live this way. she has to break from OM. she broke from him before, was getting over him, then she let herself go back and she's miserable.
Also though, that she doesn't want me either. She doesn't want any men right now. She needs to focus on her and kids.
And she's thinking of filing before I do.
She is still hung up on her feelings that I neglected her for the last two years.
I know you will all tell me that I shouldn't have an R talk, because she will only believe action. I've been 180ing and DBing for 4 months, added a lot of support around the house and with kids so she has more time with new job. It has been impossible though to show any romance or affection to someone involved in A. I don't feel there's been an effective way to show a renewed commitment to her in what she felt was missing most.
I feel the urge to say that I would like to make the M work. I want to suggest MC to address all of the issues, let go of the past and focus on a better future. We'd be no worse off for trying.
And that's about all I want to say. Just make sure she knows that there is an alternative. Listen to what she says one way or the other.
And have I done that before? Yes, but always when she was convinced that OM was the solution. She might hear it differently now? My concern is that she just sees me as the guy who's GALing and ready to leave, even less interested in her, screwing with her finances, and she'd better file to have first-file advantage.
I expect you'll say no talk, it's pursuit, etc. But how else can I convey this? Without MC, I don't know that she'll open up. She has expressed in the past that she needs to have the moderator there to make sure I don't turn things around on her. (and it would keep me in check)
Of course, she still isn't committed to R or MC yet, so we'd still be in a waiting pattern for her to want to go -- some period after I confirm no more A.
She cynically suggested last week that we go... could follow up with selection process. She may come back with the "I'm still dealing with my stuff stall."
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Seriously, do you think she doesn't ALREADY KNOW that you are willing to do this? How you feel about her? About marriage?
Leave her be. SHE needs to come to YOU with the "what will it take?" thing. The above is just yet-another attempt from you to try to CONTROL the situation with your WORDS.
Starsky
things do change.
...and that throws me, so I post.
W tells her BFF...
- she can't live this way. she has to break from OM. she broke from him before, was getting over him, then she let herself go back and she's miserable.
Also though, that she doesn't want me either. She doesn't want any men right now. She needs to focus on her and kids.
Now
THAT'S the healthiest thing I've heard her express since you began posting here!!
The above is just yet-another attempt from you to try to CONTROL the situation with your WORDS.
I really do have to work on this control thing. Have to trust enough to just let go. Monster 180 to get to work on.
Also though, that she doesn't want me either
Now THAT'S the healthiest thing I've heard her express since you began posting here!!
Hey now!
But seriously, I hope this is the inflection point, and we get to move on the to really hard stuff.
I want to thank you yet again for keeping me in line.
The above is just yet-another attempt from you to try to CONTROL the situation with your WORDS.
I really do have to work on this control thing. Have to trust enough to just let go. Monster 180 to get to work on.
Also though, that she doesn't want me either
Now THAT'S the healthiest thing I've heard her express since you began posting here!!
Hey now!
I'm dead serious. One of the biggest mistakes wayward wives make (and any good IC should tell them this), is trying to make life-altering decisions about their marriage, WHILE there is a 3rd person in it. I think one of the healthiest things a woman can do, who is not sure about whether or not she wants to remain married, is to END the frigging affair, go thru the withdrawal (from her OM) period and get her brain endorphines right, and just LIVE ON HER OWN for a period of time. 2-6 months.
And decide what she truly wants.
People around here always say "The affair isn't the biggest problem in the marriage, it's only a symptom." And I always disagree. I say "It may not be the biggest PROBLEM, but it IS most certainly the most immediate OBSTACLE. Because as long as her brain is all awash in those PEAs and "looooove" chemicals, she will NEVER see you -- or your marriage -- in an honest light (including its legitimate flaws). She will re-write marital history, and compare the lust emotions and taboo intrigue of her affair, to her now-rewritten marital memory of YOU . . . and it doesn't lead to healthy decisions . . .
even from her own, purely selfish perspective.I think it's very healthy for a WW to get to know herself for awhile,
provided she is no longer in contact with OM.
Starsky
People around here always say "The affair isn't the biggest problem in the marriage, it's only a symptom." And I always disagree. I say "It may not be the biggest PROBLEM, but it IS most certainly the most immediate OBSTACLE.
I totally agree.
In fact I told W this when we had the A confrontation in January. (back when I was much more foolish than I am now) I agreed that yes, OM is just a symptom, but the A is absolutely blocking any forward progress. And of course, at the time, that was just more of me telling her things.
I think it's very healthy for a WW to get to know herself for awhile, provided she is no longer in contact with OM.
Couldn't agree more. And provided she is no longer in contact with OM, I am very comfortable in giving her all the time and space she needs.
It sounds like she regrets getting back into A, which hopefully means she won't fall back in a third time. I think it was the stress of the new job (she f'd up at work big time this week because of the stress of home and A) and those two breakdowns earlier in the week that led her to start thinking. Right now, her top priority is her job, because she wants the independence from men. I can't think of a better thing for her to focus on while she gets over OM.
And Zew can go into quiet support mode becoming the man only a fool would leave.
BTW... going back a few weeks when I was trying to introduce the shared debit account for expenses, and she accused me of wanting 40% of her income... On a table I quietly left a printed web article describing 6 popular models used by couples to split expenses, and 3 articles on the model I had proposed. I found them on the bed twice this week along with her glasses, which means she has picked them up and read them. She may now realize that I wasn't trying to hoodwink her. My work there is done.
Hey, my calendar says it's Good Friday!
OK, confirmed today, W is dumping OM.
She doesn't like the way he is controlling their R. She realizes that in 5 years, he'll be doing the same thing (i.e. not D'ing his W, but just having A on the side.) She can't keep doing this for 9 years (until S9 is 18?) And OM is a distraction preventing her from succeeding in her career. And she wants to make sure she doesn't fall back into bad habits in the next few weeks. And she was almost over him last time. (that was 5 weeks of NC then, so I gotta sit tight.)
My Lord, she's almost lucid.
She is still done with Zew. "Zew is too serious." "Zew wants everything his way." "Zew blames me for everything." "Zew is a narcissist." "Zew is a sociopath." She needs someone who can be more fun.
It's true - Zew should be a little more fun. Time to seriously get some fun going with the kids.
And I held back some money this month from her because life insurance was due, and the oil truck came the other day!!!! And she blamed me for not budgeting well. And she threatened that I would have to buy food then. I told her that what I gave her more than covered the monthly food bill. And then I find out she bought a new pair of shoes today...
So I guess my status is that I now have a WAW that in not in an A. And for some reason that feels better.
Now this may seem just weird...
I'm damned proud of my W.
She broke off with OM because it wasn't in line with her career.
That's my girl, dammit! That's a solid choice.
The kind of thing that you'd high five. (?!) And if we ever R, that makes things so much easier than if OM did it or I forced it. And yet, I'm entirely sidelined. But when I see her do the right things, I do want her back.
Zew,
Great news. Hope all goes well , I'm pulling for you. Unfortunately, I'm not at that stage yet. Good luck!
Dev
Just FYI, don't get your hopes up too high. She'll be waffling for awhile and may even go back to him. Just keep concentrating on you and make yourself a catch she won't want to throw back.
Thanks, Dev. Don't worry, Mr. Bond, my expectations are low, but I am encouraged by the change.
I would hope that in 4 to 6 weeks she may start coming through the withdrawal, who knows to where, but at least it's forward motion...
As of today, she still "cares about OM, hasn't heard from him, and doesn't want any of his bullsh1t" so she seems to be holding the line so far on NC. Last time she made it 5 weeks of NC before going back to OM. I think she'll pull it off this time. The thrill is gone.
If she's up before I leave in the morning, I say good morning, and goodbye before I leave. We may eat dinner together, after which she goes to our bedroom to hide, while I spend my evening with the kids.
She is horribly depressed and not sleeping, in spite of AD's and sleeping pills. She has discovered that the A wasn't the answer, just another man trying to control her. She is staying in bed late and sobs that she has no reason to get up in the morning. She feels imprisoned in her own life and house. "The noose is tightening around my neck." She is paranoid that D12 is spying on her on my behalf, because D12 asks her where she was if she goes out. I think she fears losing her R with D12. She is very low right now.
She is furious with me because I won't give her full access to our finances and won't pay her CC that she has now maxed out. She says she hates me, is convinced we have no future and she doesn't even want to try to R. She says she is past the point of no return, and MC would be useless. Her therapist supports her in this. In one sentence she wonders why she just can't go back to what was because that would be easier than the hell she is living now, but the thought of me touching her, or having a conversation with her repulses her. When I laugh with the kids, she wants to "come and smack me". "I can't wish death upon him soon enough."
I've heard all of this before, of course, and it's like water off a duck's back at this point.
None of this was said directly to me. To me, she still denies the A.
And so, I wait. There are no small gains, no incremental goals really. Just hoping she gets to bottom out this time. Hoping she starts thinking on her own post-OM without the gaggle of pro-D friends pushing her down that path too quickly.
It is so much easier for me now that she isn't cake eating though.
W received a call from OM yesterday and they talked for 15 minutes. Just chit chat as friends, but ended with W saying "Catch up with you soon?" So she made it 11 days. She says she isn't going to pursue him, but apparently she doesn't mind him pursuing her.
And she has a new line of lies about me that she is telling her friends. More about me hiding money on her because I won't give her a year of bank statements. Even if we recover, I don't know how we live in this town.
She is still going on about me not putting money in her account, and if she took 1 minute to look instead of smearing me, she'd see I put the money in her account 8 days ago.
I am at a total loss here right now.
I want to call her out on all the finance BS.
Zew, I missed this somewhere - where is all this info coming from re: what she thinks/says if it's not directly said to you?
I am going to talk myself into doing the right thing here...
So W is telling several people that "Zew is so mean, he only put $x on my CC this month and I have to buy food and clothes for the kids..."
In fact, I put $250, then $x, then $x again spread over two paychecks. W was told of all these, but she tends to not hear much of what I say, and she is not in the habit of ever looking at her balance, even when she is so close to the limit.
There is one particular person she has told this story. This person knows everything of our sitch. She was a good friend to both of us. In fact, back in Jan. a few days after my W told her everything, I met her and told her everything. She is one of a few of W's friends that I think W would really listen to. Although she seems to get that it is a bad idea to make life altering decisions while in an A, she has turned out to be pro-W and pro-D. (she ratted me out to W on my visit to her)
I was very tempted to show this friend the CC transaction sheet showing payments of $2x+250, just to show that W is not being straight with her. My thought was that maybe if she realizes that W is lying about that, a whole lot of her story might not add up, and she might use her influence with W to help her back to reality. And it wouldn't be me controlling, she'd be confronted with facts. And since she knows everything, what can a few facts hurt?
However, I realize that she ratted me out once, and would probably do it again. And even if she came to know that W was lying to her, I have no reason to believe she would be any more sympathetic. I used to think she was a reasonable friend, but in spite of seeing W in complete confusion, she is the one urging W to file before I do. I'm sure she just wants W to be happy.
And so, I keep my facts to myself.
I know it's extremely difficult keeping your head together when she's spewing lies constantly. I know my WAW is constantly lying. That's what they say: don't believe anything she says. Seems like she's waffling on the A but that's to be expected. It's very difficult to go cold turkey on an addiction and that's what As are.
Not sure, but maybe I would tell her I know how hard it is to end the relationship with him. You'll still have feelings for him but they will fade with time. You made the right choice to put your career first and you should be proud of yourself for having the strength to do that. I know I'm proud of you for that.
Like I said, I'm not sure that would be productive, but I don't think it would hurt. At least you're validating her actions.
On the other hand, if this friend is already pro-W, pro-D, what do I have to lose by revealing that W is spinning lies including to her?
My only appeal to this friend when I spoke to her in January was that W should be on an even keel before making any major life decisions, whatever those turned out to be. (She was just starting on AD's back then.)
I'm not asking for anything more now.
zew, have followed your situation a bit and can certainly understand how tough it is.
You are handling things well for the most part and I am sure will look back at some and realize how much personal growth you have experienced. Good for you.
In terms of showing the friend the facts, given what you have already experienced with this friend what would you hope would be different after that discussion? Just something to think about before taking action.
Stay strong!
Zew, I echo SemperFi00's thought- do you really expect anything to be different should you reveal your W's lies to your mutual friend? I've talked to a couple of my WAW's close friends (who I'm friends with too) and come to realize that the more they try to talk W into working things out, the more she keeps to herself.
I recently sent an email to two of my W's closest friends who were like family to me. I expressed my disappointment that they didn't come to me about OM. The response I received was not at all what I would have expected. They essentially took a 'it's not my place to judge' stance.
Tarheel, good examples.
In my particular situation no OM involved that I know of. Even still, a couple of close mutual friends tried initially to talk to W and they were subsequently shut out for quite a long time. W just surrounded herself with different group of friends who she had less of a history with and who didn't know me.
Now common friends have taken a similar stance as what you describe above, along the lines of "ideally we would very much like you guys to work things out but if not really want both of you to be happy". That way they still have some interaction with W.
Sounds like a cop out to me but I have at least learned 1 lesson thru all of this. So on that topic I decide to drink a big 'ol glass of STFU.
Seems like in my story (and from some other examples shared here) WAS's often have a tendency to take steps to ensure that their situation "matches" the scenario they have created or want.
The important thing that the LBS has to remember (2x4 for myself here) is that we can't change the approach the WAS decides to take. We can only work on our own path / journey.
W received a call from OM yesterday and they talked for 15 minutes. Just chit chat as friends
No such thing "as friends". These were lovers making contact again.
She will be thrilled for him to pursue her.....and even encouraged him when she asked him "catch up soon?"
Your status has not changed, Zew. As long as she has OM in her head your status has not changed from a WAW in an A. I know you guys put a lot of stock in the physical sex act and feel relief if/when you believe it has discontinued between the AP, but emotionally the A is still very much alive. By the 11th day, their withdrawal pains were getting strong for each of them. So, if she even tries to break it off again, she will have to start back at square one.
I wish I could tell her that she will not be able to talk to that guy under the guise of "friend".
I'm afraid Sandi is 100% correct, Zew. It's a physiological, "brain chemical" (endorphines -- PEAs) thing. Each renewed contact -- even, interestingly, NEGATIVE contact (like a fight) -- re-starts your wife's withdrawal "clock" back to 0:00:00.
Starsky
Thanks SF and Tarheel,
Of course you are correct. I know it would be pointless to talk to the friend. The attitude change has to come from W, not from the friend.
And Sandi and Starsky, ya the clock is reset. I'm bummed but not shocked.
W told a casual friend:
My M is in a bad place. Instead of speaking up, I haven't. But I won't do that anymore. And now the kids are bigger and don't need me as much and I need to do things for me. Zew says "But I'm here now." and I said "I've been after you for years and you ignored me." It is too late, I am past the point of no return. I tried really hard. I've given and given and he's not given back. Zew says "You didn't tell me." I told him but he didn't listen. Zew says "You should have found other ways to communicate." So now it's my fault. And I always made sure he was taken care of, but I wasn't getting the emotional side out of the R.
So there it is. After 4 months, she just refreshed the WAW script. I've done 180s on a bunch of things, including getting off my computer and spending a lot more time with the kids, all of which has been good for me and they were changes I had to make. I feel much better about my involvement with the family now. None of these were the key issue though, at least according to her latest script.
There's no way to have a relationship with someone who doesn't want to have a relationship. She is hyper critical of everything I say or do, making her very unpleasant and unapproachable at home. She is still expending loads of energy making me the bad guy, including telling vile, outright slanderous lies to friends. I may be reading it wrong, but I think the fact that she still works so hard to hate me must mean she is still very conflicted and that should give me hope - i.e. if she were truly comfortable with leaving, she'd be over hating me to justify it.
I know I will survive all of this personally. GALing has shown me that there is no end of fun activities and people out there. Financially, D will be miserable for everyone, and I don't have a lot of years to recover. The thought of my kids coming from a broken home kills me and is a primary motivator to carry on; I fully understand that I control only half of that decision. And I still think my W is in there somewhere.
The dynamic is all wrong as far as W having any sense of loss of anything - she's working on her career, living at home, all expenses paid by me, living as though nothing is amiss, complaining all the while about how I'm making her life hell.
We can't change the approach the WAS decides to take. We can only work on our own path / journey.
Sure, and if I look at the last 4 months, I want to summarize and see what has changed.
W - has gone from angry to angry and tormented and on AD's and sleeping pills
W - has recognized that A was screwing up her mind and impairing her ability to pursue career, but has broken her own imposed NC again.
W - holding to the script; no hesitation
W - preparing to leave, but there's a difference between talk and walk.
Me - I feel better about a lot of things.
Me - I know I can rebuild my life again without W
Me - For someone who has always been patient with many things, this one is the counter-example. Can I go yet another round of A? I could piece for years, but how long can I stay with someone who says they want out, even if I don't trust them to know what they want?
And ideally: Hey W, go 12 weeks of NC with OM, then tell me how you feel about things. Then we'll work on it or wrap it up.
There's no way to have a relationship with someone who doesn't want to have a relationship. She is hyper critical of everything I say or do, making her very unpleasant and unapproachable at home. She is still expending loads of energy making me the bad guy, including telling vile, outright slanderous lies to friends. I may be reading it wrong, but I think the fact that she still works so hard to hate me must mean she is still very conflicted and that should give me hope - i.e. if she were truly comfortable with leaving, she'd be over hating me to justify it.
Ahhh, you are very wise, Grasshoppah.
Don't lose hope, Zew. BEGIN MOVING ON, and keep up with your changes, but "moving on" doesn't mean "giving up." Five days before my wife tearfully begged her way back into our marriage, she was telling OM that "you are the only one who ever did it for me," and professing her undying love.
FIVE DAYS.Her re-contact has put her back into wayward thinking, you are correct. Nothing more, nothing less. It's still all just standard SCRIPT.
Starsky
Meant to add at the beginning of that, "Remember, the opposite of Love isn't Hate -- it's APATHY."
She is still very much conflicted, in my opinion.
You got it zew. Stay strong!
Great comments Starsky.
Seems like in my story (and from some other examples shared here) WAS's often have a tendency to take steps to ensure that their situation "matches" the scenario they have created or want.
W once told a friend that she was insecure and her greatest fear was that I'd leave her. Irony.
"Remember, the opposite of Love isn't Hate -- it's APATHY."
The sad part is that it comes naturally with time. My WAW would argue that I became apathetic years ago.
BEGIN MOVING ON, and keep up with your changes
The changes are habits now, no problem there.
I have about 25 years of this and that in the basement that needs to be cleaned up -- a lot of hobbies that have accumulated a lot of small parts. I don't look forward to it, so much so that I always said the next place I moved would be a pine box. I want to get myself inventoried and the place ready to be listed by August.
Things I would like W to know, that she doesn't seem to:
"If we ever decided to work on our M, you know we wouldn't be going back, right? We'd be trying to find a place that worked a whole lot better for both of us."
"If we ever decided to work on our M, I'd like us both involved in the day to day finances so we can budget things like nights out, family vacations and other things that matter."
Those are both good items. You should be prepared to present them if and when your wife gives you the "what will it take?" talk, along with any other "dealbreakers"/boundaries/conditions you would have at that point.
Starsky
Sandi, Starsky, I am laughing out loud. Thanks for that.
No point at all, really.
I was just reviewing to see if there was anything else I could 180 and two common misconceptions in why she is "not sure" about us are: "not sure if I can go back" and "finance control", so I figured I'd track them.
And as I wrote them I thought, "Starsky would say these are perfect for the 'What will it take' talk."
W tossed and turned and whimpered and sobbed all night. Then this morning she actually started a conversation with me about D12 while I was brushing my teeth, which is just uncharacteristic.
Call me a mind reader, but I'm pretty sure it means she had a date with OM yesterday.
And call me a mind reader again, but given what she said last time she broke it off, she knows it's going nowhere, messing with her head, and screwing up her job, but she's addicted. And I think she's already kicking herself that she's back there yet again.
I've seen this movie before, and this time I'm just going to put my feet up and eat popcorn.
Mindreader! 
And call me a mind reader again
Okay, "again".
It is hard not to mind read, isn't it? But try not to borrow trouble.
So my mind reading was correct about meeting OM.
To hear W talk, she is REALLY done with us. Litany of reasons. Even if she can't have OM, she's talked herself out of me. She's even talking about "faking it until she makes it" to cake eat until she is ready to go. She's scheming about being nice.
And her friends all tell her not to worry about the kids, they'll be fine. Interesting too, that as she tells the story to each friend, and they validate, the story gets worse the next time it's told. For example, as happy as I was that she got her job, the way the story is told is that I was p1ssed because she hadn't told me she was going to do it. And she's telling more and more friends quite openly, so she's pretty convinced she's done with me no matter what. The furthest thing from her mind is trying to repair anything. She has noticed my changes, says they'll be good for the next person.
One friend is encouraging her to have discussion with OM about his intentions - where does he see himself in 1 year, 5 years. Like he's going to be truthful. Either way, her eyes have been opened and she's done with me. Her T told her so.
This will be truly remarkable if this turns around. I know I'm not supposed to believe any of this, but it sounds pretty convincing from a lot of different angles. Most of the things involve romance, intimacy and going on dates, so the longer we're apart, the more ingrained they become, and there's no way to address them.
And she is still totally convinced that I don't know anything about what's going on. Too bad confrontation doesn't work. Can't see anything changing without some catalyst.
Time to really move on as if this is over, and decide how long I can live like this. I'm good until after Aug vacation with kids. Oh, and she isn't coming on that, but she's afraid to tell me.
W thinks she is pulling this off, and that I don't know about A, and she is now coming up with deeper schemes to milk the situation and make her A easier, like trying to be nice to me so that I don't think anything is going on. This is crap.
Some of her complaints about us are valid - like we stopped going out and socializing, loss of romance, etc. We both got caught up in stuff, took things for granted, drifted, and internalized instead of talking. She really feels she tried, and I'm sure I missed it. I was definitely zoned out for a while. I feel I have addressed what I can, but the rest just can't be touched unless we are both trying. And she's not there, so I can't do anything about that. Accepted.
So I have this question. Is it better for me to let her continue to think she is successfully keeping A secret, or better to let her know that unless she tells me she has stopped A, I will assume A and act as if that is the path we are on, and that this can't go on forever?
Is it just trading pressures? Now she has the pressure of trying to keep A underground, but also the thrill that comes with that. If I made my position clear that I am assuming A, she would lose the pressure of hiding it, and might start worrying about losing plan B. Or is this just open marriage with a clock threat? Seriously, I wonder if it is better for her to think one thing or the other.
The thing is, some of the things she plans to do, like sever her phone from the family plan under the guise of "business phone" don't make economical sense, and if the only reason for her to do it is to keep her calls secret from me, then why bother. I mean, let's cut the crap here. Do I want to pay more for this delusion? So there are a bunch of these "crafty" moves coming my way that are going to have to be dealt with.
And I so want to use the opportunity to just state a few things. Not that she will really listen, or that they will change her mind, but just that they might clear up a few things that she really has got wrong. For example, she keeps saying that "H wants to go back" when really we could only hope to see if there even exists a forward path.
And when she says she backed down and internalized instead of expressing what she wanted, she calls that "settling" and I'd like her to know that neither of us should ever "settle". We would have to say what we want, and the other person might not be up to it.
Am I foolish to think that she can even hear this somewhere in the back of her mind, and that someday, if she ever changes her thinking, it might mean something? I'm not trying to tell her what to do, or even what I want to do, just laying out the only choices I see and what I think they mean.
I guess it's one thing for me to be patient, but quite another to be played while being patient. For people with the WAW that walked, this is all out in the open, you know there's an A. For me, I have her still at home trying to behave as if everything is sort of normal, and the A is a big secret, and it just isn't, so why are we playing that game? I used to think that it was because she would never be comfortable admitting A, but now, there's just no getting around it.
Now Sandi may come and tell me that WAW will hear this as me trying to tell her what to do. She has a head full of OM and doesn't want to hear me talk needs. I know she does for a fact. And Starsky may say that these are just more words, and only appropriate for the "what would it take..." moment.
And maybe they are right. I think the difference is that I'm letting her know my assumptions so there's no delusion. There are two stark paths; we're on one or the other. There is no limbo. And one path doesn't have me paying for new phone accounts.
And I am moving on. I guess I'd like her to understand my reasoning, and that she has something to do with it and some choice in the matter, rather than just have her wonder why I'm out without her, or call me an a$$hole that's trying to make her life miserable because he never loved me, etc. etc.
----
acknowledge that she is angry, accept my responsibility
no easy decisions at this point:
MC path
- no going back to what was, that didn't work [her misconception]
- determine needs and see whether they can be met [W's big on "needs" talk]
- no settling - be clear on needs and get agreement ["settling" is her word]
- requires leap of faith:
--- that I can meet her needs.
--- that she can get over past disappointments and look forward.
- no guaranteed outcome, but a chance
- hopeful since W is now voicing her needs
- requires NC with OM (can't have both) [W thinks I won't MC because she has "wrong attitude"]
other path
- nothing solved and guaranteed damage for everyone
- never know if we could have done better
state that my assumption is that if we aren't on the MC path, we are on the other path and should plan accordingly. (financially, etc.)
Zew, I think you're somewhat familiar with my sitch, but my WAW was doing basically the same thing- would play nice, denied OM was anything more than a friend, etc. When I finally found the proof that it was more than a friendship, I confronted W with what I had found (fully expecting the spying on her line). I wish I would have done it right then, but about a month later is when I told her that I didn't want her staying at the house (couldn't kick her out) while she was in a relationship with OM and couldn't be friends with her while she was friends with him. I'm not going to lie and say it's not been difficult though. She's made a few attempts to play family since then, but I've stood my ground. You have to be sure that you're fully prepared for the outcome, whatever that may be. I decided that I couldn't take any more of the waiting game- it was only stopping me from enjoying my life.
I try not to read too much into it, but I have seen some signs that W is taking things more seriously now that I've taken actions as opposed to just use words ('threats'). She claims she's told OM that they are just friends and that she needs time to figure out what she wants in life. Maybe there will be a time/place in the future that she has the opportunity to regain my trust, but now is not that time. I'm staying focused on myself/the kids and just trying to move forward.
I also have a similar sitch with the cell phone as my contract is up in a couple of weeks. I'm still deciding if I ask W if she'd like to be on her own plan or just tell her that I'm putting her on her own. It will cost more $, but that's the reality of D.
Whatever you decide, make sure you are 100% prepared to deal with her reaction and will be able to stick to your guns- it could very well lead to her blaming you for snooping and a D. The biggest 180 I've ever had to do was not respond to my WAW's emails about being put into a terrible situation, 'kicking' her out of the house, not considering the kids in my decisions, etc. It's taken me way too long to realize that the WAW has to fix themselves and nothing we say to them can bring them back.
Zew, I am going through the same thing right now as you.
My W said the other day she felt like she tried till blue in the face. Said she told everybody but me how unhappy she was. Problem is neither she or they told me how unhappy so even if I wanted to change I didn't know what I needed to do.
BTW, I asked those people(my family) she said she told and they said she didnt talk to them at all so just another WAW deal I guess.
Hang in there!!
I think there is a 3rd option -- the one I most always recommend -- between the A) ignoring and B) revealing your intel.
And that is, the next time she gives you the "just friends" thing, to put your hand up in the "stop" position and say "Please STOP IT. Just stop. We both know you're lying to me right now, and it's incredibly disrespectful not only to me and to our marriage, but to our family. Look, I know all about you and (OM's first name), and I have for quite some time, to please just stop lying to me -- it insults my intelligence, and frankly, it's not very attractive."
And then, when she presses you, do NOT reveal what you know, and never, EVER reveal the source(s) of your intel.
There are but a few cards the betrayed spouse holds, and one of them is that the wayward spouse doesn't know what you know, and what you DON'T know, so when you tell them you "know everything," they have to operate from a position that that is true.
I ultimately re-confronted my wife about her affair and I specifically honed in about the DECEIT of it all, and I did it this way: I said that if our marriage was indeed going to end, that we needed to be effective co-parents, and that I knew we both wanted what was best for our kids. And that we had ALWAYS told our kids that lying wouldn't be tolerated in our family, and you're not going to start now, with her affair.
And I gave her exactly five minutes to decide to tell her parents and our adult children the truth, or I was going to do it for her, and show them my evidence.
She opted for the truth, to her credit.
That's just me, Zew, and nit84 is right -- YOU have to live with the consequences. Exposing the affair is against DBing, but I don't really see this as exposing her affair to anyone other than THE TWO OF YOU -- husband and wife (still). If the two of you can't call a spade a spade at this point, how can you ever expect to effectively co-parent your children, if the marriage indeed tanks?
Starsky
I was in a somewhat similar situation to you Zew - at least early on. I think you need to decide when enough is enough.
Can you live in the same house with her and know that she's having an affair and truly be ok with it?
Are you REALLY moving on?
Is it healthy for you living in this kind of situation?
Is it healthy for your kids?
If I am not mistaken, you have asked your wife if she is having an affair before and she has denied it. So on some level, she knows that you know. I wonder if your failure to step up and do something about it doesn't cause her to lose respect for you as a man, or at the very least, think you are a fool to allow her to pull the wool over your eyes.
You are ok with the fact that she's had an affair and are willing to forgive her and try to work on things. Are you willing to allow her to continue to choose the affair over your marriage? I personally could not and it took me a long time to realize the difference. I wanted her to CHOOSE to be with me, to CHOOSE the marriage over the affair. I was not ok with letting her play, decide that the grass wasn't greener and then come back after she's had her fill. I think this type of situation will just lead to another bout of infidelity down the road.
I think you're allowing her to cake eat pretty blatantly and I don't think its doing you (personally) any good, nor is it doing your relationship any good. You hear over and over around here that the LBS holds all the power - once you are willing to really let go. I guess I kind of feel like you need to start putting some pressure on her - not by begging or rationalizing but by taking real steps to show her that you are willing to remove her from your life if she's not willing to play by the rules. In order to do this, you have to be willing to lose her - She needs to experience loss and in order for that to happen, you have to experience it as well.
I might consider confronting her, tell her what you know firmly and unemotionally - so its very clear to her that you do know. I would not produce any hard evidence that indicated you had violated her privacy. Take it from there, depending on her reaction. If she continues to deny then she truly has no respect for you.
Others might disagree but I don't think covering your head with a blanket serves the situation well at all anymore.
And that is, the next time she gives you the "just friends" thing, to put your hand up in the "stop" position and say "Please STOP IT. Just stop. We both know you're lying to me right now, and it's incredibly disrespectful not only to me and to our marriage, but to our family. Look, I know all about you and (OM's first name), and I have for quite some time, so please just stop lying to me -- it insults my intelligence, and frankly, it's not very attractive."
I've done the hand thing. Told her I didn't want to hear her lies. She told me I could believe whatever I wanted to. I told her that believing the truth worked best for me.
Didn't really change a thing.
I will never reveal my sources. I could tell her enough about a couple of incidents to convince her she had been seen in public. She'd assume I had her followed.
The real question though is whether I am better off with her knowing that my base assumption is that she is cheating every day she doesn't say she isn't. As I said, the sleep-in WAW isn't an overt cheater. I think it has been way too comfortable.
IDK man - somehow you need to find a way to break this impasse and get all the cards out on the table.
What if you asked her to start sleeping in the guest room/sofa?
Also - not sure what you mean in your last paragraph about the real question.
What difference does it make if she's cheating every single day?