married 10 years, together for 15.
I'm 37 she is 37 we have a daughter that is 6
Some background information. We've had our ups and downs sometimes getting into rather heated arguments but never ever violent to each other. When our daughter was born in 2007 it really put a big stress on our relationship. Having a child was a much larger undertaking than i ever thought it would be. I began to withdraw, our daughter had acid reflux, colic, you name it.
I work midnight shift because our daughter has food allergies and the after school program was very bad about letting us know when they were going to do anything with food so that we could bring something comparable in for our daughter to eat with her friends. I get home at 7am and sleep til 2 but am usually still very tired after getting her from school. So i usually take a nap when my wife gets home.
She has been telling me that all i do is sleep, and I know i sleep more than i should but if i don't sleep i fall asleep at work. I'm also not as tidy as she is, i don't help out with household chores. For a while i brought up our 'agreement' (i put that in quotations because now i realize this 'agreement' is laughable) that i would maintain the outside(painting, lawn, etc) and she would maintain the inside of the house(cleaning, etc).
I also don't communicate very well. this has caused more arguments. We would get so mad we said we would divorce when our daughter got older because we think, or at least i still think it's best for her to have us both in the house. It got to the point to where she moved into the guest bedroom last january. At first i thought this was great, i stayed secluded in 'my room' from the time my wife got home from work until i had to leave for work that night. I watched whatever TV shows i wanted, played computer games etc.
for the past couple of months i began to miss her. But she was so distant that I thought it was hopeless so i didn't try to reconnect with her.
Then that day came. She wanted a divorce. She wanted uncontested divorce so that we could come up with our own visitation schedule due to my odd working hours. At first I thought it was ok, pretty much the same deal as we've had but it would be official. Of course i choked up, watery eyes, because in the past i deeply loved this woman and was terrified of what this would do to my precious little girl.
So i tell her I would go along uncontested, the next day she goes to see her attorney and comes up with a fair deal in both of our eyes. Another day goes by and I completely lose it. I break down crying uncontrollably, she runs in my room afraid something had happened to my elderly grandmother(she isn't doing well). I tell her that's not it, I looked at her and told her. "I'm still in love with you"
She cries, storms out to my bedroom door and so are you changing your mind about agreeing to uncontested? I tell her I'm not sure. and she goes to bed.
The next day we talk, no arguing or anything but I 'convince' her, i guess, to give marriage counseling a try. She says it won't change her mind but she'll go. I ask her to give it a try because we haven't been, ever and I would like to tell our daughter one day that we tried everything to make it work.
It has been a week and a half and no arguing, I dont know if she's just relieved or it's because i'm not sleeping (1. I can't obviously. 2. this has woken me up that i need to change). She has talked about me still having dinner with them sometimes and that i don't have to leave the house immediately when she gets home usually (some nights our daughter has dance lessons)
This was a wake up call. I'm still in love with my wife and it kills me that she is no longer in love with me. I'm not saying I love you, i'm not touching her, holding her hand, hugging her. I want to badly! but i do not want to push her away.
She wants to go ahead and file for divorce but leave them unsigned. That way if she sees no improvement in us in counseling after 3 sessions we can sign and finalize the divorce.
I pray that this is salvagable.
First, immediately go to amazon/B&N (or run out) and get Divorce Busting or Divorce Remedy.
Read them immediately!
While counseling will help, you need more tools then that, and it will help guide you to some things to avoid.
I'm probably not in any position to give any advice, just wanted to offer my condolences and let you know I understand the pervasive effect night shift work can have on a person's life. My sister worked overnight for years, and getting people to understand the far-reaching effects that can have was a constant struggle for her.
Do everything you can to 1) back off, and 2) improve your attitude and outlook. I'm miserable on the inside, but I've been walking around with a slight smile on my face at all times and keep myself busy and up-beat (as possible) at all times--which has the added benefit of keeping me out of my wife's way.
Say NOthing about the relationship and divorce. When your wife brings it up, just listen. If something demands a response say you want to think about what she's said.
One thing regarding the division of labor in your house... My wife and I had a similar "agreement" and I can tell you this: You can fix the car and mow the lawn and paint the house everyday for a thousand years and it ain't gonna matter one bit if what your spouse feels over-burdened with is the laundry and the cooking and the house cleaning. Do you know what I do now? I fix the car, mow the lawn, paint the house AND do half the laundry, half the cooking, and half the cleaning. Did it save me from marital problems? Heck no. But it sure isn't on the list of things my wife is unhappy about.
Figure out the things your wife is unhappy about and change them without talking about it. She will notice...eventually. And if she comments on it...particularly if she asks why you're doing what you're doing, you can simply say that when someone points out your flaws or mistakes or things they're unhappy about, you have a choice: you can ignore them, or you can choose to try to be a better person for your OWN benefit, and that you've decided you want to be a better person.
Regarding marriage counseling...hey, you're ahead of the game because most spouses are beyond it. Take it as an opportunity to work on YOURSELF, not your wife and not the marriage per se. Listen to what your wife has to say in the sessions and come armed with a short list of things you want to improve for YOU...I would start with your communication skills since you've already identified that as a shortcoming.
I'm probably not in any position to give any advice,
You may be new... but your post is sage advice.
I'm probably not in any position to give any advice,
You may be new... but your post is sage advice.
I appreciate that... Hopefully I can help myself here, but if not maybe I can help someone else...
Say NOthing about the relationship and divorce. When your wife brings it up, just listen. If something demands a response say you want to think about what she's said.
Good advice from Stumps but this is an area where you need to be careful. If you stonewall her, you're putting yourself in the role of her adversary, keeping her from getting what she wants. It's often more effective to use "relationship Judo" and lean into it, granting her what she asks for without friction.
If you're against her, that's what she will focus on. If you are with her, she'll have space to think about what she's doing and why.
WRT MC, go into it with low expectations. Unless both people are going into it ready to "do the work" and make some personal changes, it's not going to fix your marriage or prevent divorce. 95% of people go 3 years too late in a situation where one partner is motivated and the other is not. Usually the reluctant partner is going to be looking to (1) help the LBS find peace, (2) get validated by the therapist that the LBS was at fault, (3) point out your issues so that the therapist can help you fix them. None of that really moves your marriage forward.
The other risk is that the reluctant spouse is usually withholding and non-communicative. The MC may lead you to pour your heart out, which is generally not a good thing when your spouse is already trying to leave. Remember that just because you're in MC doesn't mean you should turn off your filter if your spouse is uncooperative. Focus on the communication skills aspects, active listening skills, etc. and spend the majority of the time data gathering.
It can be useful to meet with the MC alone, beforehand, to plan for the joint session, and to debrief 1:1 afterwards.
Acc
Welcome aboard! Is the school not required to provide you with a weekly menu? You may have to request a conference where the teacher, the school's food services director, school nurse and school social worker attend and plan how they can support you in keeping this little girl safe. That is part of their job.
I have the book, read more than I have in years! I'm committed to this 100000000000000000%
Thank you, I'm applying everything you've said.
She takes her lunch everyday for school. It was the after school program that was lacking.
Sandi2
She takes her lunch it was the after school snacks that were a problem.
I'm reading divorce remedy. I'm applying the last resort technique since we already have divorce papers.
One glimmer of hope today. She said "if this doesn't happen I would like to continue having separate checking accounts(i'm terrible budgeting money, I don't bounce checks or go negative but i just spend spend spend).
I have been keeping my bedroom cleaner, but today i took everything out and did a deep clean. My daughter was amazed and my wife was still in shock (she just stood at the doorway when she was going to bed).
She also was in a great mood, laughing, we watched about an hour and half of tv together.
Right now she has an injured shoulder, they dont know exactly what is going on but there's a lot of inflammation, pain and loss of range of motion. I told her I would do the dishes and for her just not to move her arm so her shoulder wouldn't hurt as bad. She didn't fight back(she always has been very independent) and she said 'ok thanks'.
One question though. Since this is proceeding should I read further? or only concentrate on the last minute technique?
just a status update.
Apparently seeing me play with our daughter puts my wife in an unbelievably good mood. we were outside playing hopscotch when she got home. Saw me jumping when it was my turn and that caused an outburst of laughter from her. Apparently seeing a 6' tall 280 lb man playing hopscotch is funny.
We all went in and started playing games together and after a while dinner came up. Our daughter wanted stir fry, which my wife an I weren't in the mood for at all. We mentioned pizza and how good that sounded then debated either Papa John's or this local place we go to sometimes. So after I clean up a little and my wife helps our daughter get ready for bed we decided on the local place, which may not have been a good idea because it was loaded with grease. So bad that even I made a comment about how my stomach didn't like it(i have a stomach of steel, nothing upsets my stomach, ever). She laughs again, and goes 'ohhh your old age is catching up to you'.
We watch a TV show we haven't watched in ages together, Criminal Minds. We haven't watched it in so long because we got out of the habit of watching it after our daughter was born. We have tried in the past but it put us too much on edge. I guess we were 'resensitized', we would always ask each other 'did you hear that?'. lol
But we watched that, then she said 'i'm sorry to bring it up but can you go over the papers tonight and let me know if you have any changes?' Inside my stomach is knotted at the thought of a divorce but I tell her I would look it over.
We came upstairs, both of us go straight into our daughters room to check on her and of course she's sideways in the bed. She's in no danger of falling off so we agree to let her sleep like that(one of her body pillows that we put on her sides is really soft so she likes sleeping on that). She then asks 'hey, could you listen out for [our daughter]? I want to take a hot shower with the door closed.' I reply of course because all I was doing was watching discovery channel starting this post.
Then she poked her head in here (the door is cracked open) and she said 'goodnight' and i said the same.
I'm so torn. I want her to tell me she has changed her mind but then again I don't want her rushing to judgement and cancelling. I know she thought about this whole thing for a while and to just call it off because of how I've changed the last week and a half would be crazy. I haven't been very spiritual in the past (which I've been talking to a few people about) but I pray that this works out.
One question though. Since this is proceeding should I read further? or only concentrate on the last minute technique?
Keep reading further, as Cadet always cites: "knowledge is power", but re-read the LRT, and re-read, and re-read. Be able to cite it.
Also:
Notice your 180 (cleaning room) has been noticed. Keep it going. This is not just a one time demonstration, this is a change for YOU for the better.
And the dishes were a great #5 (chapter 6) you experimented, and saw a positive result. Try some more, if you get positive results, keep them going, if negative, end the behavior.
Another potential experiment: you seem to recognize you just "spend spend spend". Work on that as a 180?
I have been keeping my bedroom cleaner
Beta.
we watched about an hour and half of tv together
Beta.
I told her I would do the dishes
Soooo beta.
Nothing wrong with beta behavior, but if you're thinking this may attract her back or change anything then you need to drop your expectations. Alpha behavior is attractive, beta behavior is more of a comfort thing.
I will keep reading. Will take the book with me to work tonight.
I was started dusting the living room after we played a card game she got with her chick fil a kids meal(that caused a bunch of laughter by both of us). She said 'oh you don't have to do that, the maid is coming Monday'. I thought about it for a second if i should stop, I didn't want to come across as disregarding her so i stopped.
I am working on my spending. She has said in the past that she doesn't want me to give up eating out and stuff completely, just reign it in a little(she doesn't want to be like her parents were (debt ridden) when her mom passed away(about 18 years ago(we were not dating at the time).
I've been doing the dishes pretty much every night since then (i think there was one night we all ate out and there were no dishes)
What seems to cause the biggest positive reaction is backing her up in whenever she disciplines our daughter (i discipline also but wouldn't always back her up especially if i thought she was being excessive and I've mistakenly told her that in front of our daughter in the past (obviously no longer do that as i've seen how much of a toll it can take on a person after watching her and dealing with that all day)).
I have to be careful as to how much alpha behavior i demonstrate. She has said in the past how laid back i am, the only thing she really didn't like is decision making. I make decisions all day at work(not that she doesn't) and I'm worn out. Even the little things she liked. My off days are during the week and I would have a restaurant picked out for us try. She said she liked when i did that stuff because it showed i thought about us doing stuff together when we were not together, but i was discouraged back then because it seemed like many times she didn't like or disregarded my suggestion.
When I've talked to her on the phone while I'm at work and i have to take a call she can still hear me. She's mentioned how different i sound, authoritative but not overbearing (gee writing this makes it sound obvious what i need to start doing again) but this was when i was on day shift or afternoon shift. She's asleep while I'm at work now so she doesn't hear this side of me anymore.
Our daughter is staying at my mom's tomorrow because we have our first appointment with a therapist tuesday and she is on spring break. My wife asked if I wanted to go to dinner after she came to see our daughter at my mom's house after work. I don't sense any tension between us and actually looking forward to it. Just wish I didn't have to work but we all are going to my grandmother's house tuesday night (this trip has been planned a while and my daughter refuses to go without my wife so she's going.) She actually sounds like shes looking forward to it. talking about going to the beach and i told her about some parks i've found to take us to.
She has mentioned that maybe my change this time isn't temporary(i haven't changed my attitude this long ever(my attitude toward her, crankiness etc)) I told her I just want to be a happier person, and i actually made an appointment with my doctor for a physical, she was elated with this(heart disease, diabetes, mild depression run in my family).
I'll post more later, as of now things have been smooth sailing since my 180. I'm getting used to working on less sleep than usual, i set my alarm for 2pm instead of not setting it at all and sleeping til 6ish but i'm determined my attitude will not fade. I'm more committed to this than anything in my life, ever.
Just got back from our first session with a counselor.
Came out that she still doubts the changes I've made. She resents me because I didn't want to do anything about the marriage last year when she wanted to(I thought it would just get better with time). There was no arguing or fighting. When we were leaving she said, "you didn't want to go to the other guy because his website said he deals with divorce and getting through it but you pick this guy and he says in the first session that he believes this is worth saving?" So i feel like she is going to resist reconciling even more now. I told her I didn't know he was so pro-marriage, that he did marital counseling and was Christian based. That's all i knew(was referred to us by my healthcare provider).
We leave for Florida tonight to visit my grandmother while our daughter is on spring break. Still applying the LRT but am so discouraged at the moment.
I'm so confused. How can someone that laughs and smiles at me all day still say she wants a divorce?? I didn't directly ask her that but she said tonight after dinner"its obvious she (my grandmother) doesn't know).
I'm so confused. How can someone that laughs and smiles at me all day still say she wants a divorce?? I didn't directly ask her that but she said tonight after dinner"its obvious she (my grandmother) doesn't know).
I think it's all just part of where the WAS is mentally. My wife is the same way. Most of the time you would think we were still a happy couple. I try not to question it and just take her at her word that she's still moving out (it's a struggle not to get my hopes up). For instance, W and I had a great time out to dinner the other night and twice had other diners stop and tell us what a cute couple we make, and yet... W is going out with her sister tonight to break the D news to her. I just try to remind myself that for all intents and purposes I'm dealing with an insane person...nothing she does is going to make sense.
Yeah that makes sense. Once she makes her mind up about something its nearly impossible to change it and I'm terrified of that.
Yeah that makes sense. Once she makes her mind up about something its nearly impossible to change it and I'm terrified of that.
Well...again, my wife is the same way. I'm choosing to look at it like this: Her behavior means there still hope, but I'm not going to let it get my hopes up. More importantly, she can't know that I think it means there is still hope. No matter what private hopes I have, I'm approaching things as if we are both moving on...and acting "as if" as much as I need to that I'm ok with that. It seems counterintuitive to me--part of me thinks that will send her on her way even faster. But what I'm learning from this forum is that if there's anything that might make her question her decision, it's seeing that I'm not only am I ok with it, not only am I going to survive it, but that I will actually [b]thrive/b] despite it.
Yeah I'm actually kinda pessimistic about her changing her mind after today. Wants both of us to take our daughter to Tampa to see the dolphin from dolphintale one weekend this summer. She talked to her sister and said that if its meant to be w will get back together. I'm just afraid divorce will change us too much in order to reconcile
I'm just afraid divorce will change us too much in order to reconcile
And I guess that could be true, but...
Just keep DBing, because if you don't then there's probably no hope at all and... even if it doesn't save your marriage, it will save YOU. That is, all that 180ing and GALing will make surviving the divorce much much easier. And if you keep up the 180ing and GALing, you will be far less likely to find yourself in this position again once you're in another relationship.
a mutual friend of ours told me that my wife appreciates the effort I'm putting into this and the changes I've made, but it's too late. She's still dead set on divorce.
I've never felt pain like this before
I agree with stomps. Keep up the dbing. Also, don't take what she has said to you or others as truth. She is probably still confused and does not know what she wants. Besides a divorce is just a piece of paper it can't tell you how you feel, should feel, or to give up.
Sorry you're hurting. And it's understandable.
But I would encourage you to look at it like this: if I'm reading your story right, you're only a couple of weeks into a journey that will be months long at a minimum. Maybe your wife is still deadset on divorce, but that's what all WASs say at this stage. The fact that she acknowledges and appreciates your changes is a good sign. Doesn't mean your marriage is saved by any means. But it means she's seeing something. And if you keep those changes going over time, even as she keeps moving toward divorce, that's when they're going to make a difference. That's when she can start believing that they're real and permanent, and not just temporary or a ploy to win her back. That's what will make her start questionning her decision if anything will.
Keep doing what you can to DB/180/GAL. It's consistency over time that makes the difference for the WAS and the marriage...and for you.
Thanks. The thing is the 180 and GAL are opposites for me. I used to do a lot of things (concerts, traveling, hobbies) for myself. So if i did a 180 i wouldn't GAL but if i GAL i wouldn't do a 180. After reading the book i decided on a 180. Giving her what she's always wanted(me being supportive discipline wise (at least in front of our daughter), not being consumed by the computer or games or anything, helping out a lot more around the house.)
We are on vacation at my grandmothers house in Florida right now and she has posted some pictures of the places we have gone and she said i was right about one guy from her work (I've been telling her for a while to watch out for him (he comes immediately when she has computer problems or other issues) and she says he's older and happily married. Well today she said "you might be right about 'John' he just sent me a message saying he wishes he was here with me". I was even tagged in the post so he knows I'm here with her. She was obviously disturbed by him (or the best acting job I've ever known). She said she's going to have to keep her distance from him.
Then tonight before bed (wife and daughter are sleeping in the guest room I'm on the sleeper sofa) we hugged, she says "your heart is racing" i tell her i just think about things at night usually. She knows what this means. She says she's sorry. Pats my chest and gets in the bed.
I agree with stomps. Keep up the dbing. Also, don't take what she has said to you or others as truth. She is probably still confused and does not know what she wants. Besides a divorce is just a piece of paper it can't tell you how you feel, should feel, or to give up.
thanks. I just hope she doesn't slap papers in front of me when we get home tomorrow
Oh yeah stumps you are looking at this right. She told me she wanted a divorce on march 21. Initially i agreed, then realized a couple of days later I'm still in love with her. Been dbing ever since
VFL,
If you've 'had a life' all along, the 180s seem wise, just don't give up everything.
From my perspective (originally the WAW who had an A and then became LBS), I think her responses seem positive. Obviously I can't say for sure but she seems to be responding to you. Her comment to your friend about it being too late is common, there isn't anything more frustrating to the WAS than to have their spouse finally make the changes they were looking/asking for all along. I was ticked off when I was ready to leave and my H started doing what I had asked him to do for years, pi$$ed actually! I couldn't believe it and I thought "Really? All of these years I asked you and you wouldn't do it and now, when I'm ready to go and finally happy again you do it?" However, don't let that deter you because even though it is her reaction now, it doesn't mean it will be her reaction in 2 months, 6 months, 1 year. Are you in it for the long haul? It took my H and I years to recover, but we did and we are doing great, so it really is possible. Hang in there. She is noticing your changes and, for now, that is what you need.
It is a fine line when one S wants a divorce and the other doesn't. When my H finally had enough (when I became the LBS), we were basically separated but living in the house together so I did LRT (the book says this is a must if one S wants to leave). I was always positive and upbeat around him, I would have conversations but end them a little sooner than usual, I wouldn't initiate them but I was never cold/rude/distant, I would only call or text if it was about the kids, etc. It took about 4 months before we had any personal interaction but I just kept doing it. So keep doing what you are doing and I will be sending out positive thoughts for a reconciliation.
It is easy for your W to feel that she has to move on to be happy if she has had her needs ignored for a long time. The book is 100% on in describing the WAW so it will take a while for her to believe there is a chance of things changing and working. Don't give up hope.
Thank you. I will never give up on this, even if we get divorced. Her sister has said if its meant to be then we will get back together. obviously I'd like to stay together but a part of me feels like she would be more certain about my changes if i kept doing lrt even after divorce and would be willing top reconcile then.
Told me she wants me to sign the papers so she can take them to her lawyer Wednesday. Eyes got watery and i asked her "so no change in your mind?" She said no. She's getting our daughter ready for dance but I'm a wreck inside.
Did anything happen to spur her to do it?
No, she has been talking about signing the papers off and on since she dropped the bomb. Sometimes a day or two in between her bringing it up but nothing has happened to make her bring it up again today. She is a very determined woman and when she knows what she wants she goes for it.
I just don't get it. She's so pleasant around me. I expect her to be pleasant when the 3 of us are together but I expected some distance from her when it's just the 2 of us. She talks about being still being friends after this is over. I know I have to be in order for any chance of reconciliation but it's hard when i feel like she's ripping my heart out.
I do understand that you have been keeping your changes going, and now you're going to have to continue to do so in earnest. This is the hard part.
Thank you. I will never give up on this, even if we get divorced. Her sister has said if its meant to be then we will get back together. obviously I'd like to stay together but a part of me feels like she would be more certain about my changes if i kept doing lrt even after divorce and would be willing top reconcile then.
I have 2 family members who divorced and later reconciled. So yes, it happens.
It was a few years before they got back together, but absolutely the changes "appear" more real over time, b/c they ARE REAL, when it has become habit and lasts...
Hang in there...and don't cement things in her by confirming that "no change" has happened in her.
Just take her words at face value for now, not necessarily believing them but not challenging or confirming them. The more you challenge her choices, the more you force her to defend/explain them. That does not help you.
Being the best most loving father WILL be noticed by her. Regardless of her commenting, it is absolutely noted. And It's a turn on for mothers, believe me. Be the best dad you can be and a good decent man.
Be a man only a fool would leave.
What GAL are you doing lately?
I am being the best father i can be to my daughter. 1. because i love her and 2. because my time with her could very likely be cut into in the near future.
I don't have much of a life now because I pretty much did my own thing before she dropped the bomb. Sleeping, video games, gun range etc. Now i'm helping around the house more, backing her up when it comes to disciplining our daughter and just spending time together. She has told a mutual friend she wishes I would've done this earlier(the 180).
It is very hard because sometimes I feel like it's for nothing. That nothing i do will change her mind. But yet she is so much more pleasant to be around. I think it's a combination of my 180 and her actually acting and drafting divorce papers so there is an end in sight for her
I am being the best father i can be to my daughter. 1. because i love her and 2. because my time with her could very likely be cut into in the near future.
I don't have much of a life now because I pretty much did my own thing before she dropped the bomb. Sleeping, video games, gun range etc.
I am going to give you what I hope is seen as a gentle reminder of priorities, and not a nasty comment made in fury, or a harsh 2 x 4, okay?
So, as much as I enjoy target shooting & hunting, ( & I do, although I'd never done either before meeting my h), & sleeping in, and even playing a few video games, were you all that happy & fulfilled with those activities? They seem pretty solitary/isolated to me. Maybe a tad depressive, too.
In other words, does it feel like a big sacrifice to give up (or do less of) the video games and sleep, to do things like help raise your daughter, share your w's company as her mate, and to take pride in helping to keep the home maintained nicely?
So far from what I read, your wife has noticed the changes and
she has NOT said things like "h, all you've done is grow up some, & stopped being as selfish & lazy" OR "So what if you make changes?"
Instead, she has said things more along the lines of "NOW You do this??" Meaning she cares.
Oh sure, she is sort of suggesting it's too little and or, too late. But it is not. If she were indifferent to you, THAT would be a lot more worrisome. But she's invested in you, regardless of how she may feel the need to "cut her losses", she still cares.
The question is whether her fears of you & the marriage reverting, can be allayed by your consistent, persistent efforts at showing real & lasting change, in YOU.
YOU are the one to make your case...(right? I mean, does that make sense?)
As for giving up, why would you do that? I mean, it's one thing to say you don't or can't see her forgiving you or you two reconciling, (In which case you stay the course but perhaps work harder on detaching),
but it's a wholly different matter to suggest you stop doing things you were, in reality, meant to be doing.
Like helping with the house, your d, and not being in bed during the day when you are well, not playing video games or doing other solo activities, when you have a mate and a young child in the home...your w probably is used to being a single mom, in effect.
She can say (and maybe even believe) that the changes are too late. But just b/c she says it does not make it true, and just because she feels a certain way one day does not mean the feelings won't change. They have and they do, all the time.
For her to see Your changes & believe in them, merely takes more time b/c you have to overcome her presumptions that the changes are fake or temporary.
But it DOES happen. People change and other people, over time, either notice it and pretend not to, or they notice it and admit it. She's already admitting it!
Now i'm helping around the house more, backing her up when it comes to disciplining our daughter and just spending time together. She has told a mutual friend she wishes I would've done this earlier(the 180).
That sounds like a really reasonable thing to say, don't you think? It does NOT mean you are in a hopeless situation. It does mean she approves of the changes, however.
Keep at this.
I am being the best father i can be to my daughter. 1. because i love her and 2. because my time with her could very likely be cut into in the near future.
I don't have much of a life now because I pretty much did my own thing before she dropped the bomb. Sleeping, video games, gun range etc.
I am going to give you what I hope is seen as a gentle reminder of priorities, and not a nasty comment made in fury, or a harsh 2 x 4, okay?
So, as much as I enjoy target shooting & hunting, ( & I do, although I'd never done either before meeting my h), & sleeping in, and even playing a few video games, were you all that happy & fulfilled with those activities? They seem pretty solitary/isolated to me. Maybe a tad depressive, too.
I like playing games and would only play with people i know. There would be about 4-6 of us from work that would play before work or on off days. But looking back that's all my life was. Work, sleep, pick up our daughter, wait on wife to get home, play games, repeat.
In other words, does it feel like a big sacrifice to give up (or do less of) the video games and sleep, to do things like help raise your daughter, share your w's company as her mate, and to take pride in helping to keep the home maintained nicely?
I completely agree now, looking back i remember her asking me to spend time with her, take better care of myself(she likes it when i dress better, shave more often, cologne, etc). I push back and resist and change when I feel pressured to change. I hate that aspect about me.
But since the day I realized i'm still in love with her it's not a something i have to consciously do anymore. I shave daily, back to wearing clothes she likes me in, hair cut more often but the most noticeable difference (i think) is my attitude. I'm no longer Grumpy from Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.
So far from what I read, your wife has noticed the changes and
she has NOT said things like "h, all you've done is grow up some, & stopped being as selfish & lazy" OR "So what if you make changes?"
Instead, she has said things more along the lines of "NOW You do this??" Meaning she cares.
Oh sure, she is sort of suggesting it's too little and or, too late. But it is not. If she were indifferent to you, THAT would be a lot more worrisome. But she's invested in you, regardless of how she may feel the need to "cut her losses", she still cares.
The question is whether her fears of you & the marriage reverting, can be allayed by your consistent, persistent efforts at showing real & lasting change, in YOU.
YOU are the one to make your case...(right? I mean, does that make sense?)
Makes perfect sense, and I was completely honest with her when we talked about the changes i'm making and they are for me. They will continue even if we do end up getting divorced because they make me a better person
As for giving up, why would you do that? I mean, it's one thing to say you don't or can't see her forgiving you or you two reconciling, (In which case you stay the course but perhaps work harder on detaching),
but it's a wholly different matter to suggest you stop doing things you were, in reality, meant to be doing.
Like helping with the house, your d, and not being in bed during the day when you are well, not playing video games or doing other solo activities, when you have a mate and a young child in the home...your w probably is used to being a single mom, in effect.
She can say (and maybe even believe) that the changes are too late. But just b/c she says it does not make it true, and just because she feels a certain way one day does not mean the feelings won't change. They have and they do, all the time.
For her to see Your changes & believe in them, merely takes more time b/c you have to overcome her presumptions that the changes are fake or temporary.
But it DOES happen. People change and other people, over time, either notice it and pretend not to, or they notice it and admit it. She's already admitting it!
Now i'm helping around the house more, backing her up when it comes to disciplining our daughter and just spending time together. She has told a mutual friend she wishes I would've done this earlier(the 180).
That sounds like a really reasonable thing to say, don't you think? It does NOT mean you are in a hopeless situation. It does mean she approves of the changes, however.
Keep at this. Thank you, I will keep at this. We have another therapy appointment in the morning after our daughter goes to school. Hopefully she doesn't feel like it's all on her like last time(the therapist said in the first session he sees potential and she should try harder to make this work instead of giving up, which I felt like taking up for her because it isn't completely her fault.)
Thanks again, I'll post an update tomorrow.
Well that sucked.
Therapy today consisted of a personality profile. Which we are the same on half of the attributes. Myers Briggs personality types she's an ESTJ and i'm an ISTP. Discussed how we perceive each others feelings and actions and how we deal with them.
Talked about how she 'let go' of our relationship a year ago when she moved into the other bedroom. Said she didn't try counseling because I was adamant that I didn't want to go and the last thing you should do is drag someone to therapy. Told the therapist we have talked about divorce in the past but made up eventually (each time was a little longer and longer until we made up). So i thought we would make up eventually it just was taking longer than expected.
So to me I never looked at us agreeing on divorce last year when she moved into the other bedroom at real. I'm a wreck at the moment so some of the session is a blur but it ended up with him telling me that i have to let her go and rebuild my own 'house' in order for this to work. He wants to meet with only me next week.
Walking to our cars we got into another argument. She said "do you see what he's saying about we need to let this die and I can see your changes are real then we could possibly get back together" I told her I didn't want anyone else in my 'house'. Asked her about just separating, she said we've been separated for over a year (when she moved into the other bedroom). I told her we never discussed a separation and she replied that it didn't need to be discussed. We were just at two completely different places in our relationship and due to my lack of communication i'm losing the person i love most.
I'm not giving up DBing really though, because I like the changes I've made. I don't even consider it DBing anymore. I don't know if I've convinced myself this is the new me or what but I like who I am now more than who I was a month ago.
We've been pleasant to each other the past 2 days. actually been making her laugh like i used to, part of DBing. But she still wants to go through with the divorce.
So i went into panic mode since the appt with the therapist and I messed up badly this morning, asking her to give me another chance because I realize what I need to do in order to fix this. She just keeps saying she's done, she's been done for almost a year. I told her 'you never told me'. She said when i was adamant that I wasn't going to change and I didn't want to go to therapy she saw it was pointless. It escalated to me asking her how she can just break us apart and we'll both always wonder 'What if'.
Her and my daughter left this afternoon to go to my in-laws for Easter. They go down there for holidays if i have to work. I wanted them to stay since i feel like it's my last holiday with them with me in the house, but I know she would either go anyway or resent me for it.
I called to see if they got down there ok but no answer. So i called my in laws and got my father in-law. They weren't there yet. Next he said he hates what's going on. By the time my wife was beeping in on the other line. I answer and she was in the drive thru getting their dinner. She wasn't annoyed, and i let her know i was just checking on them since it was raining the whole way down. I get back to my father in-law and he said that if i ever needed to talk he is there for me. I don't want to talk to him while my wife is down there though so I plan on calling him sunday afternoon.
He has always 'been on my side' with my wife being overbearing and controlling to a point. So we'll see what happens with that conversation on sunday.
Didn't talk to my father in law today. I'll call him sometime tomorrow.
Today was another nice day, although I was only around them for about an hour and a half. They went down to her dad and step-mom's this weekend for Easter since I had to work this weekend. Had a few phone conversations fri, sat and sun primarily with my daughter though. The panicking side of me says she doesn't want to talk to me but the rational side says she's just busy talking to her dad (they are extremely close, closer than usual I believe because her mom passed away 18 years ago).
When they got home today I gave my daughter a scooter my parents bought and an Easter basket my sister made for her. she was fine with the basket but had an issue with the scooter. We had made a rule that if it didn't fit in or right around an Easter basket then she wouldn't get it. We didn't want Easter going overboard and becoming another Christmas. So that's fine, I understand and agree with that. But our daughter propped the scooter against the back of one of the chairs and my wife was telling her not to do that it will scratch the chair. Then stopped and told me it doesn't matter that they are mine anyway. so that hurt hearing that.
I'm dressed much nicer than usual today (khakis, button up shirt and dress shoes). She loves/loved when i dressed like that so i thought she would notice, and she may have but didn't mention it. i didn't really dress like this for her, i just felt like it because of Easter and all.
Later on she mentions our daughters winter break (that's when we usually take a vacation). She still wants to go on vacations together as a family. Feels that's important that our daughter sees us together like that. Carefree, no schedules, getting along, etc. But we've been talking about taking her to Sea World for a while now, and she mentions that. Said you can have lunch or dinner with Shamu and there are lots of other things to do. Said we would go to Sea World for 2 days so we wouldn't be hurried to do everything in one day.
I mention Winter, the dolphin from the movie 'Dolphin Tale' is in Clearwater. only about 1.5 hours away and she agrees that's a possibility. It's hard understanding how she can dislike me enough to divorce me but still be with me for extended periods of time. I'm terrified of bringing this up though, because I'm afraid she'll just say ok never mind then, we won't go.
I know hindsight is 20/20 but I wish I would've DB'd last year when she was willing to reconcile. But I didn't know she was willing to reconcile and I thought she was happy with the way things were. I guess my advise to anyone would be DB at the first mention of divorce. Instead of brushing it off as just something that was said in the heat of an argument. but i guess if you're reading this then you're here and you already are DB'ing.
Still discouraged, but still DBing...
VFL, if you did not usually dress the way you did today, she noticed... trust me. My W has said a couple of times that she noticed my new clothes and that I am cleaned up and looking good. Keep up with the DBing and working on yourself.
I can express enough how much encouragement, knowledge and strength I've gotten from this site.
She just asked me again to sign the papers. But everyone else i talk to says not to sign until I'm ready. I told her that and she said "so i need to change it to contested". I ask her why such a hurry and she says she's grieved and let go. She's over this, why don't i do what the therapist said (let her go). I tell her we've never really tried working on our relationship at the same time(its always been one of us admitting faults and changing what we were doing. She tells me i have until Wednesday to sign. then she just quit talking and got on her ipad.
Had a nice day with my daughter today. Picked her up from school and we went to my parents house as usual on tuesdays (we go there on tuesdays and fridays after school). Got our daughter home about 30 min earlier that usual because they have benchmark testing this week. Wife was appreciative of that. We both made her dinner(she's allergic to gluten and dairy). Then the 3 of us talked about a homework project they have due next week.
Wife and I show each other stuff from each others facebook. They were funny and it was awesome to hear her laugh. Then we talked about a vacation again in Feb 2015(we usually go on vacation for our daughter's winter break) we decided on sea world in Orlando and then going to Clearwater to see Winter from Dolphin Tale. So that will be about 5-6 days together nonstop. She did ask if she could have a couple of days in spring break since i get her then and she felt like she was 'giving up one on one time' to have a family vacation. I agree but told her I would like the same the next year.
Further down in my facebook feed I notice one of my friends that got divorced last year was at a braves game with a guy she has been dating a couple of months. She got divorced about 6 months ago and i said Hmmm out loud. My wife asked what was is it? and i told her. She said that's way too soon, and I admitted to her it would be very difficult for me if she started dating again and they started doing things together as a family. She said that she doesn't want to date for a long long time. She wants to work on herself first, lose weight etc. I told her guys are going to be knocking down her door (she's a beautiful woman) and she laughed that off (she doesn't have very high self esteem about herself physically).
By this time it's time for our daughter to go to bed, I ask my wife what she wants for dinner(i told her i was going to get something to eat earlier in the evening). She asks what I'm thinking and I told her Wendy's and she says nah i'm good. I told her I would stop by anywhere along the way and she declines. Then I remember I haven't had Arby's in a long time. I mention that and she takes me up on the offer.
So I leave and get dinner. Come back and we both eat on the couch watching a Criminal Minds rerun. Some jokes are passed back and forth and then we come upstairs because she says she's going to bed. I can't remember what exactly was said but she mentioned that in the last therapy session it hurt her that couldn't comfort me when i was crying in therapy. She said she didn't want to give me the wrong impression. I told her while I wanted her to hug me I see where she is coming from. So we go upstairs and I check on our daughter and then lay down with her because she's an irresistible cuddle bunny. My wife asks if I mind if she takes a shower with the door closed, (I guess she's just making sure I'll listen out for our daughter if i get out of her bed) I told her "of course". and she proceeds to take the longest shower known to man lol. She gets out and I tell her "i think i'll have to wait until tomorrow for the water to heat back up". We both laugh and she says it just felt so good in there. I didn't hear any crying though and I would have if she was.
I missed the therapy session today that was just for me though. I had it in my phone calendar as tomorrow and they did reschedule for tomorrow at 4. Don't know what he's going to work on but I'm guessing it's working on me and getting myself ready for the next chapter in my life.
I guess a part of me is realizing divorce is going to happen because i find myself looking up stories about couples that reconcile after divorce and stuff. I know that is years away more than likely if it happens at all.
I guess what I'm going for here is confirmation if I'm doing the right things or if this is a cheeseless tunnel
Just signed the papers, well the signatures requiring a notary. Going to put the folder exactly the way it was maybe she won't take them for a while. The notary told me my wife didn't sign one of the forms. i find this unusual of my wife because she is very detail oriented and especially since she works in the legal dept at the company she works for.
Guess i should start the 30 day clock.
We have been texting tonight while i'm at work about our daughter getting sick or allergies. Sends me a picture of our daughter in my wife's bed saying 'sleeping good, hate to move her' and i ask 'you haven't been to sleep yet?' she replies 'nope' i jokingly say 'tsk tsk tsk' and she says 'can't sleep' I'm pretty sure it's about the divorce. she reflects on it whenever we have a good day and today was awesome.
I woke up while they were out to a friends house so our daughters could play together when they got back i was doing yard work. She liked that very much, she said 'when i got to the driveway I thought the new neighbors across the street were clearing bushes but then thought 'they wouldn't put it on our side of the street' then i came up the driveway and saw you behind the retaining wall with a machete and throwing stuff down to the yard. She told me to hurry up and get a shower because we are going out to dinner.
I take a shower, come downstairs in a polo and khakis and immediately she says. 'Go change! i'm wearing jeans and we're only going to Taco Mac'(local sports bar).
So we go there, work together to figure out something for our daughter to eat(a few food allergies). I've been more involved with her on this lately. before I would defer to her if we were dining together but I know what she can eat if it's only me and our daughter. She asks me 'where's the braves game?' I tell her it's not until later. It was nice hearing her looking for something that I like.
After dinner she asks me and our daughter both do we mind if we all go to the store. I tell her it's fine with me and i'll keep our daughter busy. we get to the store I tell her i'll push the cart(my wife has shoulder problems at the moment).
We get home, put the groceries away and I have to get ready for work in a hurry because it's 15 minutes until i have to leave.
I know all of this is stuff I should've been doing all along in our relationship, and i normally would have but usually only if asked and probably with a comment or two from me (don't ask why, looking back in time i have no idea why).
I'm terrified of Monday already. Scared she will ask me to initial the pages necessary. It won't ruin our day tomorrow I just hate it being in the back of my head. I'm just so mad at myself for letting this happen.
VFL,
I feel for you. I am in a very similar situation with my wife. Just last night we got into an argument again about us. She reiterated that she has no romantic feelings for me and wants a divorce. We have stayed together for our daughter but her resolve to end our marriage is too strong.
I am sorry for your situation.
Wayne
Yeah we were supposed to stay together until our daughter was older until a month ago. And I thought I that was best and I wanted out. Sadly I think I realized too late that I don't want out, ever.
It is a catch 22. Live in frustration or end things and be frustrated about the new situation.
Yeah. I wanted to reconcile before she said she wanted a divorce but i was afraid that would push her away since she wanted a divorce eventually.
VFL,
I feel for you. I am in a very similar situation with my wife. Just last night we got into an argument again about us. She reiterated that she has no romantic feelings for me and wants a divorce. We have stayed together for our daughter but her resolve to end our marriage is too strong.
I am sorry for your situation.
Wayne
Thing is she wants to have sex, or at least fool around once a month (this is usually when she's ovulating) i have told her i don't think it would be a good idea long term. It's tough because I'm still unbelievably attracted to her.
I also have a question for people that have gone through a divorce with children and their spouses get in relationships.
Is it natural to have a distrust of men being around my daughter? I worry about them both but my wife can take care of herself. I worry about my daughter being abused. I know this probably won't happen but it does happen. I know my wife wouldn't knowingly put our daughter in that situation but i know people can be deceiving so he may be like that without her knowing.
My wife says it will be a long time before she is in a relationship but I told her guys will be coming at her like crazy. She an incredibly beautiful woman with a heart of gold.
She brought up me signing the papers while i was cooking dinner. she said"i hate to bring it up because it puts you in a bad mood but will you sign the papers tonight?"
Asked her why the rush since we've been getting along so good lately.
She said she needs to let go. I told her she let go last year(she told me this a while back), why does she need a sheet of paper for her to feel like she let go? She said she just does, doesn't feel like she could start over without it. That she doesn't feel like we could get back together without time apart, being a year or whatever. I told her we could separate and I'd still move and when she was ready we could work on our relationship. she said she would need to start over completely. another wedding and everything because this marriage is dead.
I told her we could renew our vows after a while and she said she would need the whole thing over again because this is dead.
I'm wondering do i need to let her go? Its been a month and she says no change in get mind, although i feel like there is doubt I'm what she should do.
I don't know that it's particularly helpful to assume your W has someone in the wings in the absence of any real indication...or that it changes how you should proceed or conduct yourself even if she does.
Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. Would it be a deal breaker for you? Would it change how you DB?
Someone else with more experience can undoubtably provide better advice on the matter, but I would guess at some point you have to sign the papers just to avoid being seen as obstructive...
Yeah she does have to come out and say that because she swears to God there is no one else. That might have been what happened to you i don't know.
I don't know that it's particularly helpful to assume your W has someone in the wings in the absence of any real indication...or that it changes how you should proceed or conduct yourself even if she does.
Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. Would it be a deal breaker for you? Would it change how you DB?
Someone else with more experience can undoubtably provide better advice on the matter, but I would guess at some point you have to sign the papers just to avoid being seen as obstructive...
I don't think she does. She isn't on her phone a lot, she doesn't care if I'm on it.
If she ends up with someone else it would be hard but i don't think it would be a deal breaker for me. I wasn't the first man she loved so i could do it again.
I honestly don't consider the changes I've made as DBing anymore. It comes naturally now so i would keep doing what I'm doing.
VFL,
Your wife sounds like mine. Her resolve is strong. It's like Republican and Democrats. No matter how much you try to reason with them they will never see your side.
IT seems futile. All you can do is to let them have there way.
Hey VFL, I can sympathize. My W is pressing for D papers to get processed soon as well and there seems to be no other reason besides feeling like it will give her closure. I think you have the right outlook on it though. Its just papers and as long as they don't have anything legally hurtful in them then there is no harm to them. Hang in there!
Bunches, you are mind reading. You can't honestly know what she is thinking until she says it.
Back to the point at hand...
VLS... you have to what is right for you. At the end of the day, DBing is about saving you first. If your M comes through intact, that is a bonus.
Work your program. Make the changes. Keep doing them until they become second nature. She just might start to realize that her choice to want out is folly and she would be a fool to leave.
Think this is the route I'm going to go.
Well no thinking about it really. I will do it because i don't want her to file contested. I'm afraid that's what will happen if this drags out for a while. How long I'm not sure though. She said this morning "so we're just stuck in limbo right now". I feel like I'm just being selfish at this point.
I think her heart is starting to open up or soften to me though. Even after years of neglect. She's softer, smiling, laughing and seems to enjoy spending time with me. so that makes me feel better. Even if we don't get back together at least i don't feel like she hates me.
We'll always be friendly to reach other. Especially around our daughter. She has admitted to me that she needs to divorce from this marriage in order to start over between us. I didn't get it at first so i offered to separate and I'd move out. But now i see her point. Especially after talking to my therapist.
You're right. I'm doing the program except i haven't detached. I haven't because the GAL in the LRT was opposite for me. We never spent time together as a couple so i stated d doing that as my 180. The consequence of that is me becoming closer to her so i couldn't detach. Now i need to detach.
" I'm doing the program except i haven't detached. I haven't because the GAL in the LRT was opposite for me. We never spent time together as a couple so i stated d doing that as my 180. The consequence of that is me becoming closer to her so i couldn't detach. Now i need to detach."
What you don't understand is that the spending time together as a couple was an issue BEFORE the BD. Now she doesn't want to spend time together with you. In fact, doing so just gets her irritated. There's a difference. That part is important to get in the book.
She doesn't seem to mind spending time together. Sometimes she initiates it. She'll come downstairs and ask if i mind if she watches Tv with me or not.
I was torn between doing a 180 and GAL. She always wanted to spend time together so i did the 180 and spent time together. I guess i should've GAL. I just thought that would've came across as accepting the divorce, moving on and not wanting to reconcile.
Vfl,
Just curious what's been happening?
Hey 2little,
Thanks
didn't see that i mentioned it before but the counselor only wanted to see me after two joint sessions. in first individual session he said that my wife is done with this relationship. She isn't done with me though. To her she needs to let go of our marriage and start over completely if it was to happen. Said that she cares for me deeply and hates to see me hurt.
Had my last individual session today. He says i'm handling it well and just to let things happen. not to think about the divorce and just things happen. We talked about sprituality, this was one of the issues between my wife and I. We both grew up Christian but I kinda of veered off course and started wondering how everything happened. He gave me some books that were very rational and methodical in their approach with lots of research since my personality type is ISTP and I'm the type of person that needs reasons and scientific evidence for me to believe in things.
Relationship wise we are hovering. We have our good days and bad. Tomorrow will be the last day I wake up in this house to get our daughter from school. She took off from work on Friday so she is picking her up then. For some reason this is hitting me very hard. Seems odd for something so small to affect me like this.
In laws are becoming very bitter so i'm not contacting them anymore. I'm not sure what they are being told or what but it's just very uncomfortable when we've spoken lately, more so with the step mother in law than my father in law. Just strikes me as odd since my wife wants to continue a relationship with my family, especially with the kids. I have a 15 yr old niece(she was born 3 months after my wife and I started dating), and 2 nephews (8 and 6). My wife actually went to North Carolina for a month to watch the older nephew when he was born until a slot opened up for him in daycare. So they are very close.
My wife and daughter are going on vacation with my in laws on the 30th thru june 7th. So they are looking forward to that. I'm not obviously because I will miss them, but i've signed up to work overtime everyday while they are gone. except for my off days which i'm going to take a day trip somewhere (i work for an airline, i like to take day trips to cities i haven't been to).
Well after a few months of "not being ready to sign" my grandmother and my great uncle passing the holidays came. Neither one of us wanted out to happen over the holidays. I was served at the beginning of Feb. I moved out today into my parents. Going back over tomorrow morning to pick up the rest of my things and help her take some things to goodwill(she's cleaning and getting new things)
I'm still dbing but it's more of who I am now instead of still doing a 180. I'm sure we'll end up doing lunch and then I pick up our daughter from school as per my visitation.