I probably did something silly just now but I don't really care. I went to my wife's work to exchange car keys so I could pick the kids up from school. While there I asked if she had a preference for dinner and she reminded me she wouldn't be home due to a meeting. I asked what time she would be home. She didn't like that. The kids always ask me when my wife will be home. I started getting on the front foot and along my wife before my kids asked me so I was prepared when they asked. Apparently my kids don't ask when I'm coming home and my wife told me in a tone that said "I don't believe you".
It upsets me when the kids ask about their mum. I understand my wife has her own life but the kids don't understand the concept of time yet and they all want to see her. On weekends, when the kids aren't around, I don't ask when my wife will be home as it's not my business. When the kids ask though I can't just tell them I don't know and have them upset because she's not home yet. I'd rather comfort them even if I wind up as the bad guy.
I sent my wife the following message as such:
"I understand your skepticism about my asking when you're coming home. Your life is your life and you're entitled to live it whatever way you like. I understand this but the kids don't. They do ask, especially Keegan. It upsets me that they ask but it is what it is. What you do and where you go is up to you but the kids ask because they miss their mum."
As I said before, I don't care what she's thinks but I do care what my kids think.
B,
That is a tough one....and there really is no simple way to go about it. I feel the best route to go is be honest with the kids. Tell them that mom is busy and you have no idea when she will be home.
I like that you expressed your feeling as your wife has requested of you.
I am going to ask something, but you need to bear in mind that is has no affect on what YOU are doing. Do you think she may be having an affair? Understand that doesn't change the DB things for you! Other than if it is a complete deal breaker, but of course in your situation that would be the pot calling the kettle black. That said, I am curious.
Honestly, no. Early on I suspected something, called her on it and she called my bluff. I never pursued it as I understood it would cause further damage to an already dire situation. My wife opened up in January, just before things were good again briefly, and mentioned she'd considered sleeping with and/or dating someone else, and whilst she never told me with whom, I believe I know who though I've never met the guy.
One of the things that came out of the conversations we had was that she was very confused and didn't know what she wanted and that adding an extra person wouldn't be fair to her, me, the kids or a potential OM and so she didn't go ahead with it. I believed her then and still do now. Every time she's shared her feelings with me she's spoken with such a clarity that tells me she's put in deep thought to what she feels and says. The listening argument was a case in point as there was no "ummm, ahhh" but straight to the point "you don't listen" and backed it up with examples. She also values her integrity highly.
She has shown the hallmarks of having an affair though. She's been on her phone heaps, been secretive with phone use and general plans, etc but the timings of her comings and goings don't add up to having an affair. She'd have to have not been into it that much or be very brief with her encounters or be very discreet. In a nutshell, it's just not probable. When I did suspect something, I discovered she'd been putting in a LOT of time at work (I do know this) and was speaking with/visiting friends who were either in a similar situation or needed help of their own. My wife has played a sort of big sister role with a friend of hers at work who has had some major issues recently.
There was an event last year she went to, the local horse races, where she dressed up and sent me a text prior to going. She asked my thoughts and I said she looked nice. The response I got was "not hot or stunning or amazing?" My parents used to joke that when I casually said something was "cool" it meant I REALLY liked it. Of course my wife looked amazing but I didn't express it in the way she'd understand. I believe it was this day she met the potential OM (just a guess), received some compliments (also a guess) and she started to see greener grass. Our relationship started to deteriorate at this point and BD occurred one month later.
To me it all adds up to an IA. I feel that she wasn't happy with who I was, and probably still isn't, but doesn't have a reasonable option to go to. She still hasn't mentioned divorce and she hasn't brought up separation again despite the fact her actions indicate she's seeking greater independence. Even tonight, she's asking my opinion on a family car that I currently believe she's going to try and buy and pay for herself. I just feel there's a bunch of soul searching going on rather than turning to another man.
Lastly, my wife spent last weekend at home with me without the kids. We didn't do anything together, she was hostile towards me and she even said to me "I was enjoying my movie alone" when I sat down in the living room after work. After spending the previous two weekends away from home,she could have easily done it again and didn't.
My wife told me this morning her Mum is coming for a visit in May, shortly after her brother and his fiance come to visit. My wife told me that she is going to tell her Mum and brother what is going on between us so "they don't expect any lovey dovey between us". My MIL is incredibly nosey and will no doubt ask questions but I won't be discussing it. My BIL and his fiance won't ask anything of me but may ask my wife. I hope my wife perks up when her brother is around. She loves her brother and his fiance so she should enjoy the week they're here. I'm not sure she'll enjoy the time her Mum is around though.
My wife called me earlier about a mediation we are trying to set up with D4's biological father. She gave me the ins and outs and it was nice to hear some positivity in her voice. She also spoke to me calmly and listened when I spoke which hasn't happened in a while. Given our situation I asked my wife whether we were going into this as a team or as individual parents. I hated asking the question but I'd rather ask it and be on the same page as her than not ask it and fly blind as far as my wife's feelings about D4's situation. My wife said sge wasn't bringing our situation into the mediation and that I would be D4's dad regardless what happens with us or mediation. She's been great through this situation as far as my kids are concerned. She's reassured me that I will be their father no matter what.
So I've had a positive interaction in that we discussed something rather than having her get snarky and sarcastic and yet awkward because our situation affects D4's situation. One thing I do know is that I feel uncomfortable talking to my wife lately. I don't feel she takes me seriously and I know I'm supposed to let her come to me but I also should feel comfortable discussing things about the kids or her behaviour towards me without feeling as though I'll get my head bitten off. I need to get to the point where I'm comfortable saying things to my wife and her response (or lack of) doesn't affect me but be available to listen when she speaks or responds.
Well my situation got a bit more confusing. My wife says she hasn't told her Mum but told her brother and sister about our separation. I said to her I'm comfortable with her telling whoever she needs to tell when she needs to tell them as it is what it is. I asked how she's doing with everything at the moment and she replied that she's doing OK given the situation. I asked if she had any major problems with me right now aside from the listening and housework and she just said she hates me because of the "root of the problem" being that I cheated on her and she doesn't trust me.
I don't really know what to think of it all at the moment. I'm hurt because I wasn't expecting it but at the same time I feel it's probably spew and I'm OK with it. It's a weird feeling. I believe she isn't happy at the moment and I know from my own experience these past few months that I saw life differently a few months ago than I do now. Whether that's where my wife is or not, I don't know, but I hope she can be happy soon. I hope it's with me but ultimately, I'd just like to see her smile again. I know I'll be fine without her now but I'd like her to stay. This stuff is for me and it's working but I would like to share it with my wife as she's taught me so much already and I feel that we can make it work with proper effort from the both of us. In saying that, I understand that it may never happen.
I still look at the positives though. Last night she asked me my thoughts on a car I feel she will try to buy for herself without my help and today we had a civil discussion about mediation with D4's bio father. I'm shaking my head right now because I just don't know what to think. It probably doesn't help that my kids have done my head in tonight too. I feel like the only sane person here at the moment :p
I don't know if it's naive but I feel that time will heal some things. For all I know, she could be planning her exit too. Who knows.
B,
You are getting down the grit my friend....it takes time to let things simmer and cool. We are all guilty of hearing something and changing for a week or two...then reverting right back to the old. Why time here is such a friend is that you can work to make those changes permanent. Think about your backslides...it isn't really what you did at the moment....it is perceived as he is the same old B going back to his old behaviors.
The most difficult time I have had with you B...is that you don't embrace the changes. You come up with reasons to not change your ways. Some you do work on, but not all.
Embrace the change my friend....Your life and world will change.
LFW, I'm a little stumped by that. What changes do you feel I haven't embraced?
B,
No more easy train for you....You have come to far for that.
That said.....You answer the question you have posed.
I appreciate the help you've given me so far. Yesterday I organised my kids for school went to work to put food on the table, came home to cook and clean and my reward was a son who didn't want to tell me about his daughter at school and two girls who wouldn't listen and continually got into things that they were not supposed to. To top that off my wife says she hates me.
I feel frustrated that the bulk of my help comes from one person. I feel somewhat left out at times. Yet I've been able to turn myself around and make myself happy despite my situation. I don't know what changes you feel I haven't embraced. I came here for support and as well as I've done, some days I'm going to need it more than others and yesterday was one of those days. I didn't feel supported yesterday.
I'll soldier on today and I hope I enjoy it. If anyone sees anything about my situation that I don't please chime in. I don't have all the answers which is why I'm here. Often other people see what you are too close to see.
Hey Barry, sorry for the tough day. Your W is going to say things like she hates you because she wants to dislike / hate you. She is working hard to go that direction. I know its hard to let things like that roll off your back and through it all be the best Barry you can be but that is your goal. If you want to be a great parent and do all of those things for your kids, then do it...and be proud of it regardless of what she thinks of it. Keep smiling buddy and enjoy your day.
Just from an outside glance, and only refreshing from the posts here the past couple days...
I would say that Lost is talking about you still looking toward your spouse, for your answers....
You are still very dependent on who, what,when ,where , and how she does something, before you can make your choices.
Her mood affects your mood, rinse, lather, repeat...
It really affects the person that YOU want to be, when that happens...
Think about that, and re-read your past couple days of posts....
You can't lead from behind Barry....
Start blazing your own path....
Thanks Bunches and Mach. I didn't realise I was coming across here like that. I don't feel that but I'll pay more attention to it.
This morning my wife asked how much space was in the wardrobe of the spare bedroom ("your room" to her). She wanted my stuff out of our bedroom ("her room" to her) so I moved it straight away. I REALLY want to ask her where she's at, if she wants to be here in the same house, but I know it's not a good idea. I don't like that she's actively distancing herself more. It just doesn't make sense now. I'm seriously missing something, I know it, but I just don't know what it is. I've worked hard to achieve happiness for myself and it's almost as if I have a MLCer on my hands rather than a WAS. Of course, that's not the case but I have to remain patient and stay on the path because I know I've done well. I'm not perfect and I'm not trying to be anymore but I am trying to be more considerate of my wife's feelings, not that she cares, while going about my own life and taking care of the family while it's still a family.
So she told you that she didn't love you, and blah, blah, blah...
Yes ??
Did she say anything...that was new information that you didn't have already ???
Same old lines ???
Why is YOUR reaction different this time ???
Yea...Those ^^^ changes
I did nothing. I've done nothing when she says/does negative things for a while now. Could it be that she's just pissed that I am a more pleasant person? It's the only explanation I can come up with right now. I'm not doing anything majorly wrong (I'll still make mistakes but it's not end-of-world stuff) and I'm supporting my family more than I ever have while doing my own thing. Like I said in an earlier post, I could understand this stuff at the start of the year but it doesn't make any sense to me now because I've followed DB, I have made changes for myself and yet she's appears more alienated rather than less. The listening argument occurred a month ago and she's not wavered in her attitude towards me since even though she'll ask my opinion on things from time to time. I just don't get it. It's irrational.
Why are you still worrying about what she is thinking? You've not made changes for yourself because you keep looking to her with expectations about your changes. She's batpoop crazy right now, you know that and we all know that. She's not thinking straight. Please. Stop trying to make sense of LBS crazy.
I understand why you would think that I'm looking to her to notice my changes. I just got what I was looking for without asking. My wife basically updated me on what she wants between us. I haven't felt comfortable talking to her lately because of her hostility and whilst I know I need to grow some balls and talk about what's important, even if she doesn't want to speak, I feel like I've been treading on egg shells around her.
She tells me she's setting boundaries, taking control of her own finances, that we'll split bills evenly, that she'll live her own life (I thought she was already doing that...), and that she's going to start staying in the house on weekends. She cited that she didn't feel comfortable doing so before. She said the boundaries are in place so we can cohabit effectively. She also said she had been to-ing and fro-ing about forgiving and forgetting.
This is going to sound strange but I feel relieved. I understand everyone's perception is that I want my wife back, and I do, but it's unrealistic at the moment and I don't expect that. What I do expect though is to know the rules of the game I'm playing by. If I'm doing too much housework, don't mope about it, tell me. If I'm not doing enough housework, don't complain about it, tell me. If you don't feel comfortable with me, let me know and I'll keep my distance. I feel better knowing where she stands. I can work with that.
Six months ago I would have pleaded and begged and alienated her further. I would have asked her to reconsider and suggested joint items. Now, I just want to know what rules I'm playing by so I can get on with my own life without pissing her off. What she thinks about what I do is her problem but if I know something annoys her, I can consider her feelings before I do it. If I do it anyway, it's because I want to do it. That's all I was looking for.
And yes, I'm guilty of trying to make sense of WAS, not LBS, crazy.
I just want to thank everyone who popped in this morning to say their piece. I understand that people will try to challenge me to better myself however I just needed some support this morning and I appreciate everyone's presence. It turns out my wife knows me better than I give her credit for and she knew I had questions rattling in my mind. We had an exchange this morning and I'm happy with what she said. Long-term, I'd like our situation to be vastly different but for now, I understand why she feels the way she does and I have no expectations for a relationship beyond co-parenting. It appears I have given a different impression to everyone here so I have some work to do on how I present myself.
LFW, I'd still like to know what you feel I haven't embraced. You've been a great help to me so far and I think I'm a little too close to my situation to understand what you are seeing.
B,
For the most part Mach hit it right on the head.....My goals was for you to realize what he said yourself. You slide back and forth into a world where your wife's actions control your action....not only in action, but also emotionally and that is my bigger concern.
Your gal'ing activities have once again taken a back seat....Yes you are working again (which I like), but otherwise it seems like you do little beyond taking care of the house. The worse part is....and you will have your reasons about taking care of the house, is that you will say you are happy doing it. B...are you truly happy or are you just limiting your horizons?
You have done some great stuff B......but you have a ways to go my friend.
As for the responses to yesterday....I think you have a choice. My opinion is that you move your posting to midlife...Not because I think your wife is MLC, but because I feel you will run into more posters and vets who can help you with you there than you can find in newcomers. Right now you are on the DB fast train which is a good thing, but you have started to outgrow newcomers.....and it is time to move to the big leagues.
There doesn't seem to be a lot of action in the other forums. I'll have a look and familiarise myself with that section though. I don't have any GAL activities at the moment. I put the woodworking projects on hold because of money, I don't have time to play Playstation anymore and the only thing that has piqued my interest outside of home recently was potentially playing soccer but I don't know what's happening with work at the moment and again, money. I've been working on finding out where my money is going so I can tighten the strings a bit and put some aside for GAL activities.
Like I said in my last post, I understand why people believe I let my wife control my actions and emotions. I do have my down moments but they're fewer and farther apart. Last night was the first time my wife said she hated me and this morning was confusion over where I stand. I get that we're separated and all that entails but I don't understand her irrational behaviour. Who in their right mind complains that someone cleans too much, especially a man? This morning gave me some clarity as to what the 'rules' were so I can live my life my way while being able to support my family, my wife included, and not alienate her further.
I wanted you to really think about what I was saying yesterday, an what Lost is saying to you.
Like Lost, I want people to really see things for them self, and come up with what they think...not what I see, or tell them...
BB....
I don't really need or want an explanation. None of this has to make sense to me...
It only has to make sense to you, and you alone....
What we are saying (well at least me), is that you are still way too attached to her actions and words.
Nothing seems to roll off of your back, because you don't believe in yourself first....
You are still reliant on what she thinks of you...
This woman, who has told you repeatedly that she wants nothing to do with you, still motivates your thoughts and actions...
And none of seems to stick. You get so far, and do really well, and then she vacuums you right back into her nest. So that you can be her whippin boy, and you are comfortable in doing that, because YOU still see this as a marriage, and partnership, relationship...
You have to have faith in yourself, that you are worthy of living.
You are worthy of owning your own choices and decisions, that are separate from hers, or the marriage.
And until you believe in yourself, you are going to keep doing this dance....
Own your stuff, stop making excuses for her, for yourself, and for the marriage....
And just do it....
And before you come back and give me this long "I know" ???
No, you don't know....or you wouldn't be doing it
And if you don't want your spouse (notice I didn't nor ever say Wife?) to know you better that you know yourself ????
Believe in yourself, and change yourself....
You don't need permission from her....
B,
You are making the steps, that is for sure, but we are here to remind you that you still have a long path in front of you.
As for the irrational behavior....I used to get SCREAMED at for cleaning. The truth is she doesn't want you there nor does she want you to clean. So hence the screaming....which seems irrational to you, but to her makes common sense. Why would some one come and clean who I don't want there? Think about that....You are married, she is not....and the mindsets are different.
As to midlife....it isn't the quantity, it is the quality. Midlife is filled with more vets....people who surpass the 3 month barrier here and more talk in being here for years. People who have really taken over their lives and changed themselves for the better. That is the point you are at B.....They can be harsh over there, but their intentions are pure.
Screamed at for cleaning. Sounds like fun. I put my wife's laundry away tonight so we'll see how that goes (she's not here). I get that the WAS will create distance and act irrationally but I guess I think back to things like a parent's wisdom of "treat others how you wish to be treated". It's the feeling of wanting to take them by the shoulders and telling them to pull their head in. Funny thing is, I've put my wife through the same thing so it's justice in a way. Pretty hard pill to swallow at the moment.
I can't really say it anywhere else so I'll say it here: my wife looks freaking hot today!
I closed the store last night and on my way home my boss called me to cover her shift today. My wife was out when I got home and I left early this morning so she wasn't to know I wasn't going to be home. I hope she enjoyed her alone time. The house looks great as does she. I got in and she was wearing a pair or crimson pants she'd bought a while back but she couldn't quite fit into. Now she does and she looks stunning. I bumbled out something along the lines of looking amazing but it's hard to speak when you're jaw has dropped :p
She was getting things together to take round to her friend's place. Her friend's kids are slightly younger than our so we usually give our kids' stuff to her each season. This time around, my wife has cleaned out the wardrobe to give her friend clothes too. Unfortunately that means a shopping spree is coming up. My guess though is that my wife will shoulder the load herself or ask me for half the kids stuff. Either way, I'll roll with the punches and admire what she buys. She has great taste for herself and the kids.
So having gone to work today I sacrificed the first day of my weekend. I had planned to head out to the yard and mow more of the lawn but that has to wait until tomorrow now. My football team plays shortly so there goes my afternoon. I've worked 12 days straight now but I must admit, I've enjoyed it. I've got out of the house, I've done something productive, I've helped my boss out in a time of need and I'm making money. I worked both days of my scheduled weekend off last weekend. It's been a good distraction from life as I've found myself thinking about my wife more the past couple of days. I have to refresh myself with the Rules.
The WAS is a funny creature though. I know I've said that a fair bit recently but I can't shake the thought. Three days ago she tells me she hates me, today she speaks to me in a civil manner and didn't get angry with me when I hung out a load of washing she did. I can't help but shake my head.
Barry, they are very strange. All you can do is shake your head.
Two days ago, my H sent me an email in which he called me stupid, despicable, childish and insane. Yep, all in one email. Maybe an hour later I get a text from him asking ever so cordially if I'd mind switching one of his upcoming nights with the kids. (I felt like the AFLAC duck trying to understand Yogi Berra.)
I think the vets above are right, though . . . you don't seem to be living your life for YOU yet. It took a few times of others telling me point blank, this is your reality right now. Your H does not want to be married to you" to really get it. You have to live the life that you actually have. Drop the expectations, and you will be disappointed/perplexed a lot less often.
I was doing really well for a long time doing my own thing. It's only recently that I've let her affect me again. I had another down moment today when she gave me her plan for dividing bills which involved us both transferring sums of money weekly to one of her accounts and all the bills coming out of it. It cut me that she was going through with dividing things and she could see it. I went for a drive and sat by myself for 45 minutes and tried to process everything. The entire situation hit me at once: what I'd done to her, understanding her decision to proceed as she is and reflecting on how it's not what I had planned when I got married.
When I got home, she approached me and asked what was on my mind. I told her exactly that, that I understand why she's made the decisions she has, that I've let her down in ways unimaginable and that it's not what I envisaged when we got together. She said she could never trust me again but wasn't making any plans to go anywhere, only to get her finances in order. My first thought was that if she can't trust me then she can't have a relationship with me and if we can't have a relationship, why stay living at home. I bit my tongue on this one. I did however tell her I disagreed with her theory on never being able to trust me again based on what I've learned here, what I've learned about infidelity and that we would both learn and grow from the experience. I tried my best to show her that I understand why she felt the way she did but that she was selling herself short if she limited herself in ways like this.
Long story short, she told me what she thought, listened to what I had to say and we agree to disagree. I don't have any expectations that we'll get back together but if she wants to know my feelings I have to be honest with her and limiting oneself is the opposite of what I've learned about life lately. It may put a dent in my progress, hell, I don't really have any progress at the minute, but I've listened to her by being open (although at her initiation) and validated her where I could. I'm happy with the conversation despite my bumbling.
I do really want to give her 5LL to read though. I'd like to know what people think about this. She asked what I thought and how I felt and 5LL opened my eyes to what really happened. Shes focused on the cheating and breach of trust but it goes deeper than that, to me misunderstanding my wife and her love and making poor choices along the way. It will probably be counterproductive but it may help us get on the same page, even if we disagree about the issues. I don't know really but I know it helped me understand the root of the problem and I'd like her to read it eventually.
So in a nutshell, I have a wife who will never trust me again but isn't planning on moving out. I'm calling spew but she's also incredibly stubborn so who knows. Either way, I'm in this for a lot longer than I ever thought. This ride is going to be fun *facepalm* :p
We had another mini chat via text and she says she will give it three months living here. She doesn't want to move out because of the kids and money but she needs her space and will move out if it becomes too painful. It's pretty close to what she said to me back in January prior to things becoming good again. Of course, I'm not expecting the good part this time. She's tried that and it didn't work so I don't expect her to try again. I asked her that we get along. I told her I felt I couldn't talk to her when she was hostile. I didn't receive a reply.
I'm about a third of the way through Way of the Superior Man. It hasn't resonated with me until the last few pages. The main thing I've picked up from it is that I should be considering other people's feelings and opinions and making my own decisions as well as having the confidence to tell my wife how I feel and not tolerating anytime she shows poor behaviour towards me. This will take some work on my part. See how we go.
B,
Yes...screaming B and to the normal person, that is highly irrational. The WAS just lives in a world that is of a different rational than ours.
Do your thing....Life your life.....and give her space.
The way of the superior man....You will grab tidbits as the author wants you to find the answers. It is written very much in an essence to make you think.
I will give you my thought list from the book;
-Spend 1 hour a day doing what you enjoy
-Live with an open heart
-Live free of past male influences
-Live to your fears
-Be who you are
-Make decisions from the core...not to please others
-Live for your purpose, but be focused on all you do
-Go all in...In both love and life
-Accept and grow from criticism
-Be full from the inside....Not the outside
-Relationships and work are places to give oneself.....Not fill oneself
-Be open and ready to change
-Life purposes can and will change...Don't fight the change, but change with them
-Don't use family as an excuse to not live to your purpose
-It is not the amount of time, but the quality of the interaction
-Don't let "do-mode" control your being
-People will test you....That will end so stand true to your purpose
-Tolerating leads to resentment
-Women don't analyze problems away....So there is no fix-its
Give 100% of yourself in every situation
-It is OK to disagree,but it is how you disagree that is important
Break your reading down by chapter.....Not as a book, but more as one mental thought per each passage.
As for your hostile comment....You need to think about that one. As i don't know what or how things were said, it is hard to quantitative if she was being hostile. Hostile communication has demeaning statements, threats, etc....emotionally charged conversations can get get loud, but loud doesn't necessarily mean hostile, just poor emotional control.
Like I said in an earlier post, I could understand this stuff at the start of the year but it doesn't make any sense to me now because I've followed DB, I have made changes for myself and yet she's appears more alienated rather than less.
Barrybran,
Something you need to understand about DB is that it often seems counter intuitive.
While we think they should be responsive to our changes immediately, the reality is that those exact changes, that they say they want/need etc..., will make them angry for several reasons.
1. Because it has taken them leaving for the changes to happen.
2. Because they don't believe that the changes are real.
3. Because they have made up their minds that we or the situation can't change and have decided to leave and now they have to look at the fact that that belief may not be true.
You have mentioned not getting help from multiple people. Lost is a wonderful guy and I wouldn't discount ANYTHING he says to you. And after skimming your threads I see that he has stuck with you, which is a wonderful thing.
Others will come along when they think they can help or that you will listen.
I honestly think you don't listen very well. I see you argue and try to explain why your way is the right way, and maybe it is.
DB is a guide. To utilize and modify as necessary.
The people who have been here a long time, understand that. They have also seen much more than you have which is why they will give advice to get lawyers involved or other things that may seem
unnecessary to you or others at the time.
That is something you do need to keep in mind.
Your marriage took a long time to get to the point that it is at now and it isn't going to get fixed quickly. If it does, the odds are that you will be back here in a year or two.
Take the time. Listen to the people who are giving you and others advice.
No one here advocates divorce or they wouldn't be here. However we also know that this is a marathon, not a sprint and we have seen what works and what doesn't.
Just my opinion.
I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any good resources on communication. I'm about two-thirds of the way through 'The Way of the Superior Man' (TWOTSM) and I've ordered a couple more books that should arrive as I finish it. The major themes that stick out in my interactions here are that I don't listen and how I feel I come across to other people appears to be different to how I actually come across to other people.
I feel somewhat settled after the events of a few days ago. I have my own money now and I can do things on my own time. I'm freed from doing the bulk of the housework and I can put some more time and effort into the yard work, which desperately needs doing. There was some confusion between my wife and I today over my daughters' daycare arrangements but I made myself very clear and I worked through the communication to the best of my ability. It is extremely difficult talking to my wife.
Our communication has been terrible for at least a couple of years, going back to well before we got engaged. We seem to speak different languages. I've known about it for a long time and I used to argue with her most of the time and recently I took to just doing what she wanted. Between LFW's words and TWOTSM, I realise I just need to talk to her and plough through any difficulties in communication. Today, I informed her about something I had done, answered her questions about it, asked her thoughts about different ways to solve the problem and finalised arrangements. It didn't go completely smoothly but we came to an amicable solution in the end.
We had an in-person heated moment at home tonight. My son was cleaning his room and I heard a loud bang on the wall that caused a picture to fall from the other side of the wall. I called him out, asked him what caused the bang and he refused to tell me. I can't stand this form of insolence so I continued to ask at which point he burst into tears. I sent him back to his room and asked him to come out when he finished crying to tell me what happened. My wife stepped in at this point and asked him what happened and he told her something fell off the wall in his room. She then turned on me and told me to get off his back. Unfortunately, I knew my son was lying as he said the item fell on his bed which didn't explain the loud bang or why something fell off the wall in a room not connected to the same wall.
Eventually, I figured out his motivation and told him he wouldn't get what he wanted if he refused to tell me what happened. It turns out he was being silly in his room, bouncing on his bed, and he bumped into the wall knocking the picture off the other side of the wall. I knew this account was true from the evidence and my son's demeanour. I told him it was an accident but not telling me made me think he had something to hide and lying about what happened would always get him into trouble. He was apologetic and very loving for the rest of the night. I know my methods aren't fantastic but I'm learning on the run and I don't get support from my wife when it comes to parenting. As such, I tend to not listen to her when she berates me for how I deal with the kids because she's not supportive or constructive. I know I need to turn this into a constructive boundary of sorts; something along the lines of listening to my wife but not accepting her disrespect towards me and encouraging her to express her thoughts about my parenting and working together as parents.
Something from the last post, LFW has been fantastic for me, cat04. Last week I needed a friend and I was disappointed that only one person has regularly been here for me. I've received some valuable advice from a few members and as good as LFW is, he's got his own life and commitments and I'd like to think that when someone's down their support network would rally around, pick them up again and they can carry on like before.
B,
I want you to think about this long and hard. Why won't your son come to you with the truth the first time you ask?
You can read books all day long, but the truth is right there.
Hint- Everybody in your life see's it the same as your son does....because that is how you do it.
Think long and hard B....long and hard.
I believe it's because he thinks he is going to get into trouble if he tells me. I know I haven't balanced the whole telling the truth v discipline thing very well, erring on the side of discipline over cutting the kids some slack when they own up.
B,
You are looking at the symptoms, not the cause....Be your son and think about it.
This isn't about your parenting style.
I would say he doesn't trust me.
Now expand that thought to others.....and ask yourself why Don't they trust me?
With my son it's probably that he'll get into trouble no matter what he says and with my wife it's probably a number of things, not just the cheating.
Getting there B.....but let me put it out flat and straight for you my friend.
Your son- He comes to you afraid of being disciplined. He actually does trust you....He trusts that you will pass quick judgement and discipline quickly. His recent reactions shows that he is not comfortable truly opening up to you, coming to you with the truth, etc....because he feels that he isn't being heard and that judgement will be passed quickly.
Is that the type of relationship you want with your children? Now I am not saying that a child should be able to do whatever and get away with it....because that isn't parenting. It is how you go about doing it that matters. See B......your whole relationship with him is based upon what you do today, and the future will be effected by the present. Think about the following;
Age 7- He is having a hard time with math....based on his current reaction does he come to you and ask for help or does he stay in his room and hide? Knowing that done the road when his grades come along you will not be happy and punish him.
Age 11- He is getting bullied at school....Does he come to you asking for advice on handle the situation, does he not tell you and it gets potentially worse, do you handle the situation regardless of his thoughts...Taking away his right to deal with the issue himself with the advice of an experienced parent?
Age 14- He has a crush on a girl.....Would you like him to talk to you about it or not talk to you about it? You are defining this answer today....though the crossroad is well in the future....one which direction he takes was defined in this present.
Age 17- He has a girlfriend and they are talking about having sex. Is he open to coming to you talking about it so that he has a safe discussion or does he just hide it?
Now that scenario.....apply it to you your wife. I guarantee beyond a shadow of reasonable doubt that she feels the same as your son. She has basically said it over and over.....You listen to it, but you don't HEAR it.
I don't know much about relationships and even less about women. What I do know that women want above all else is to;
-Feel secure
-Feel respected
-Feel appreciated
-Feel heared
Put R.A.S.H. in to your deep memory bank....Respect her, Appreciate her, make her feel secure, and most importantly Hear her.
If you wonder why I use your son as the base of this discussion....Look up fractal systems....the whole is just a larger picture of the parts my man...combined they reflect each other and support each other.
Think about this B and have a great day....I have soccer games to coach
I had a look at fractal systems and it came up with mathematical patterns. Is that what I was supposed to find? If it was, I feel that what you're getting at is that my actions are similar with everyone and eventually they look the same to everyone (ie. habit) so if I change the initial behaviour and stay consistent with that I'll create a new fractal behaviour.
I like the RASH thing too. I'll have to write it down somewhere. It's a very simple way of summarising similar concepts I've found in DB/DR/5LL/TWOTSM.
Just a bit of journaling... when my wife and I discussed the separation details again I poured out a bunch of things. I wanted to know where I stood so I asked questions. I also wanted to create a more positive environment at home so I asked my wife to treat me more respectfully and I'd work on doing the same for her. She said no guarantees but she'd try. So far she's been far more pleasant towards me. Yesterday, I spent the day mowing the lawn. I didn't see my wife come home and I was surprised when I saw her appear from the back door, having changed from her work clothes, and brought a bottle of water out for me. Today, she offered me a piece of cake she had baked and put some cream on top for me. They're 'nothing' acts given where we are but it's so much nicer to get along than to feel like I'm going to piss her off just by breathing.
It's been easier to detach and do my own thing though I still check her out frequently. She looks fantastic. For some reason I've felt turned on more by her but consciously not wanting anything from her at the same time. That's a weird feeling.
B,
Exactly what I wanted you to see in fractal systems.....Change the initial behavior. Look at my tag line friend, why do you think I use it? To change your behavior takes 100% commitment to it in all your interactions.....If you do it for one person, well you are doing it for them and that won't stick. You commit to changing yourself and your behavior around all people....Then things will stick. Once things stick...Then you change your world.
Right it down...Use it....In all your interactions from the kids to co-workers....Be the change B.
Honestly B....From what I have read in your posting, you backslide into an old behavior for the past month or so. You did do some things well like detaching, etc. Those are good, but I very much get the feeling you backslide a lot into your usual communication patterns....and hence her evil response to it. You have to make that change....How I would like to see you world change is your son does something wrong, but he then can feel safe and secure coming to you and admitting and accepting responsibility for his behavior. He may be disciplined for it....but he feels safe and secure coming to you. Be the change.
Your wife is on the WAS diet....On a primitive level her body is changing to become more attractive...She is working out a lot....She is gal'ing........So I bet she looks fantastic. Maybe you should take a cue from her, just saying.
B.....Are you ready to do the hard work yet? You know what has to be done, but you have to start really doing it.
I feel that I know what has to be done but not so much how to go about it. That's why I was looking for books and resources on communication. I feel like I'm listening better but I know it's not 100% and my memory is shocking so I may listen well but then forget information, which has happened a few times recently. I think my biggest challenge right now is to stop and listen when people talk. I'm still too jumpy. I do a far better job with my wife than with my kids, family or others but as you said, I have to change the behaviour with everyone for it to stick.
As for my wife GAL, she has friends here and I still feel awkward about saying to my wife "hey, you look after the kids while I do this". My wife may go to the gym instead of coming home to see the kids but I can't bring myself to do the same just yet. It feels very wrong to do so. I've started researching home gym equipment as I've found it challenging to get to the gym as often as I'd like. It'll be expensive but I'll have easy access and excellent flexibility. I could even go and do a workout and still be home if I'm needed for something. I've given up on buying the local newspaper because there's nothing ever in it.
B,
You have read plenty.....and the how? Just start doing it;
-Be quiet and listen....Then eventually talk
-Repeat back what was said to you
-Ask questions....don't give advice or opinion at first
-Understand....then be understood
-Go to them....Don't call them to you (specifically the children)
-Stop judging until you understand
-Reward changed behavior (I.E....The boy does something bad, but tells you. Skip the punishment and reward the good....build trust)
-Give a compliment a day...even to your wife on something she has done.
You know what to do.....Start doing it. There really is no HOW, you just start doing it.
BE a man....get rid of the awkward feeling and do stuff.
Home gym....Wonderful idea if you use it. I have a bowflex and a treadmill. ON my bowflex....Between sets I do quick chores. That way you can watch the kids, keep getting things done, and get a work out in.
Newspaper? What is that?......I have the internet for the news LOL
The home gym idea I'd set up in the shed. It's about the only place it'll fit plus small hands wouldn't be constantly playing with it. It's also a space where I can turn my music up and tune the world out for a while. I've rediscovered recently how important tuning out with music is to me. As for the internet, I should make you Google my town :-)
Thanks for the other bits.
This is a really good book on stopping conflict in relationships & improving communication but it can be used in any type of relationship.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0091856698?pc_redir=1396184047&robot_redir=1I've used some of the techniques & had really good results
Thanks, Up
Definitely get it out of small hands way.....Plus I bet the shed is nice and hot, so a good place to work out.
Oh....I thought about you yesterday.
Are you up for an experiment?
I am thinking that you should compliment her once a day for something she does in the house...Thanks for working so hard, Thanks for making dinner, etc....Especially compliment her for something you don't think she did the best in the world. That said, don't compliment her on how she looks or interacts with you....Look for compliments based on things she does, not on her specifically.
I've read about that idea in a few places now. I'd love to try it but I have two problems with it: 1) how I come across to people; and 2) making genuine compliments.
I'm torn about a lot of things such as this because of how I come across to people. Do I try it and hope it works out? Do I work on my communication first before tackling things like this? Those are the kinds of questions I'm dealing with. Basically, whether I prioritise personal development before focusing on others or whether I tackle everything in one go and hopefully I get good at everything eventually.
The second one, making genuine compliments, I covered in another thread. I feel people have a natural bullsh!t detector and I feel just finding something nice to say about someone can be misconstrued and hence taken as pursuing. I could be wrong but that's my interpretation of it so far. I've tried to detach while being more aware of my surroundings and I've had the opportunity to compliment on my wife on quite a few things lately, appearance-related and not, that were genuine because I'm not focusing on giving her compliments.
So to answer your question, yes, I'm up for an experiment but I honestly don't feel as though I'm ready in terms of personal growth.
As for the gym, we're coming out of summer so I'll be potentially working out in a very cold shed. There is space in the spare bedroom if I need to bring it inside but I feel that part of my personal challenge is growing some balls and doing what's right rather than slinking back into my comfort zone. Yes, my wife is my motivation but I've been motivation deprived for much of my life so I'll take whatever motivation I can get. In saying that, I love the idea of having time by myself, in my own home but away from my wife and kids, music blaring and pumping away and seeing the results in the mirror. I'm not a vain person but everyone has some degree of vanity and I can see some results coming through from my gym work despite the stop/start nature of my gym work to date.
Tonight has been pretty lousy. I'm about an hour away from finishing work and my wife posts on Facebook that my son was bullied at school today. I call her mobile and the house phone ad couldn't reach her. I get home to find out my son was choked on the school bus on the way to by a kid five years his senior! Long story short, the school didn't call us, my wife found out from another parent this evening, I found out through Facebook and thankfully, my son is OK though he was asleep when I got home. I missed a golden validation opportunity but I was more concerned about my son's wellbeing, what happened and how my wife was going to handle it. I leave the house before everyone wakes up tomorrow so I won't have an opportunity to deal with it before my wife does so I'll take her lead.
After we'd dealt with that, my wife starts asking me questions so she can fill in paperwork about declaring our separation to the welfare agency. I was really in two minds because it's not something I really wanted to help with but I did so anyway. I don't know whether we'll be entitled to any more money and I may be crazy but I'm going to try and tough it out without government help. Firstly, I don't agree with taking government money if I don't need it, and I don't, and secondly, I'd rather go without the government money and be proud that I can survive and look after my family without it. I won't judge my wife if she gets extra in her family support payments (government payments are automatic for families here; cost of living is insane) as if she gets it, she'll be entitled to it and her and the kids will benefit. It may mean some crazy events down the road with extra spending power but I'll just do my own thing and roll with the punches when they come my way.
On the plus side, I got an email back about the home gym stuff I asked about. It'll cost an arm and a leg but I figure I'll work out regularly and get them back :-) I am torn because of how much it will cost but it really will be an investment in myself and I think it's very worthwhile. It will put some GAL stuff on hold (hey, there's a surprise) but it will be a big plus in the short GAL column that I do have.
Good timing with that post. My wife comes out of the main bedroom and says she's taking steps to make our separation known. I ask what steps those are aside from the government documents and she says "social things". I ask what that meant and she says she's telling friends. Yay me *shakes head*
I still feel good about our future. I understand I've wronged her, she doesn't trust me and she's making sure she can stand on her own two feet. I don't like that she's creating distance but I have brought it upon myself. All I can do is just to stay patient and keeping chipping away at myself.
I've read about that idea in a few places now. I'd love to try it but I have two problems with it: 1) how I come across to people; and 2) making genuine compliments.
I'm torn about a lot of things such as this because of how I come across to people. Do I try it and hope it works out? Do I work on my communication first before tackling things like this? Those are the kinds of questions I'm dealing with. Basically, whether I prioritise personal development before focusing on others or whether I tackle everything in one go and hopefully I get good at everything eventually.
Barry...
First off...
Sorry to hear that your Son was bullied. I know how difficult that is to hear about..
Secondly.
I think that one has to look inside first, before anything can change outwardly within theirself....
A person can only give outwardly, what they feel internally...
One thing that I did early on, was to write a list of my qualities that I could accentuate, and a list of deficiencies that I wanted to change.
I created a list of things, that I wanted to show the world everyday, without expecting anything in return for doing them.
Just a few here...
Kindness
Compassion
Honesty
Dignity
Grace
And I started doing those things. Sometimes I really had to search for an opportunity, yet I somehow found a way to do everything on my list, every day.
I also made a list of things that I did not like about myself, and I started being aware when I had those thoughts, or I found myself in a situation where I would typically be those things...
Some of them were...
Controlling
Superior
Judgmental
Manipulative
What I found, was that when I would start doing the things on my good list, the things on the bad list started to disappear. And I found it easier every day to do what I wanted, rather than what was expected, because of my past behavior.
What things are on your good list ???
Things that you want to show ???
What things are on your bad list ??
Things that you want to change about yourself ???
And I think that the word "yourself" should be the focal word in that sentence. This is about you, and what you want.
As far as how you come across to other people ??
From my perspective, you seem a little gruff around the edges. I feel as though you like to argue a bit, and I think that being "right" is very important to you. I read you as being very competitive in your life, and that being "right" is another competition to you, and yes...your Marriage is one of those things.
That you feel that you will "lose" if she leaves, or the Marriage ends.
Is it about being right or wrong ???
I see you as an "I know" guy. And that comes from being competitive, and from being unable to listen to other people's opinions and accept that, another person's opinion of you, is only their opinion...yes. Yet it is also the way that other people view you.
I was an "I know" guy. And one simple line changed my life..
Seek to understand, then you will be understoodWhat does that mean to you ???
The way that you treat others, is typically showing them the way that you want to be treated. Just like LFW's tag line.
Be the change that you want to see around you.
And I think that is what Lost is trying to get you to see for yourself....
In my experience in life, it isn't about what is right or wrong in a given situation, it is about what is right or wrong FOR ME, regardless the situation.....
DBing is about doing what works, and dropping what doesn't work. It is about changing past behaviors that you don't like about yourself, and doing things better in your life. It is about moving FORWARD with yourself, and living genuinely within yourself, so that your next relationship can be a better, more fulfilling relationship, filled with better love, communication, and honesty.
And that there is the potential, that your current spouse COULD very well be the person that you have that relationship with.
You just have to do your part in that, which is equally opposite from where your spouse is now. It has been said around here, to take care of your own side of the street, or stay in your own Sandbox....either way you name it, that is what it's about....
You have to be willing to risk it all, in order to have a chance to start new in the future.
And you CANNOT move forward, while you are looking back at her. She doesn't hold YOUR answers Barry, I can assure you of that.....
Think about this, and come up with YOUR list of good and bad qualities that you want, or want to rid yourself of....
Let's start there....
I'll get back to Mach's post as I need to read and think. He's right that I'm an "I know" guy so I just need to take a step back and think about what's been written before I respond to it. In the meantime, I need to vent!
It's amazing how quickly a day can turn. I worked this morning from 6:30am to 2pm and the day went smoothly. I felt good. I'm enjoying work. I was supposed to work until 2:30pm but my wife called to ask me to go up to the principal's office this afternoon and my boss let me out early. The day started to turn at this point.
My boss took my wife's phone call and told me my wife was on the phone. I was with a customer and couldn't get to the phone so I figured that meant to call her back. I didn't know that my boss had put the phone down with my wife on the line. While this was happening there was some banter and I mentioned to my boss that I had got into trouble for doing too much housework. I still find this hilarious (despite how I currently feel) because you just don't hear of women complaining about men doing {i]too[/i] much housework. I get on the phone and my wife tells me she heard that I'd said it. Oops.
I head over to see my wife to swap cars and ask what she wants to know from the school principal. As I head into the school I get a short text exchange where she tells me she was "livid" that I'd told someone else about our business (one of the issues that came up when I cheated). I have tried hard not to mind read but I don't know whether her being emotional (even negatively) is a good thing or not. Lately I've felt a big, fat "whatever" from her when it comes to our relationship so to know that I can still cause her feeling about "us" was a positive in my book. Maybe I'm thinking too many things are positives but I took it that way. It's helping to think of the positives so hopefully I'm not being naive. Anyway, she tells me she could have yelled at me for it but because she was at work, she didn't. So something I thought was funny turned out to be a strong issue to my wife.
So then I head into the principal's office. Long story short, he plays down the incident, I assertively and firmly tell him that an 11 year old choking a six year old is assault, I find out my son is friend's with the other boy, that they were sharing a book and markers on the bus, that my son caused the situation and that the other child involved is unstable. I know my son and I love him but to find out what happened was not a surprise. I went and spoke to his teacher to confirm the story, which she does. I decide to try and do the trust-building thing and ask him what happened. I feel I handled this part of my day excellently. I told him he wouldn't get into trouble but he had to tell me what really happened and to his credit, he did and I listened without interrupting. I told my son that what the other child did was wrong and he was punished because of it. I told my son what my teacher told my son, that by not returning the other boy's markers he made the other boy angry and while the other boy's actions were not condoned, my son's actions caused the other boy's negative feelings. I also told my son that by telling us only half the story that my wife and I were worried about him and angry with the school when the school had assessed the situation, dealt with it and felt the issue had been resolved. I still feel a phone call to my wife or I would have helped but I understand why they didn't as my son basically 'got on' with his day without ill-effect. As I said, I'm really happy with how I handled this part of the afternoon.
Onto daycare to pick up my girls and I wind up going down a ski slope. First, I pick up an overdue invoice which was a surprise as my wife told me she set up the bank account for payments to come out of it. Then, I ask a 2yo where her shoes are and she goes off and plays. After 15 minutes, the shoes are found and off to D4's room. She wants to go and pick up everything other than what I ask her to pick up. Meanwhile, S6 is banging on a bongo drum and D2 is running around playing with everything. Long story short, it took longer than usual to leave daycare and between my stuff up with my wife on the phone and my daughter's not listening, my number one hate, I was feeling very frustrated as I left.
I head down to my wife's work as she's not going to be home before the kids go to bed tonight and as I let the kids out of the car, D4 cries that she can't get out. She's tied the string on her shorts to the seatbelt and can't get out. Problem is, I can't undo it either. So I pull my daughter out by freeing her from her pants (thankfully she had tights on underneath) and we all go inside. Once inside, my wife is on the phone. I wait. And wait. And wait. Just as I decide I'm going to take the kids to the shops, she gets off the phone and comes out. I ask my son to tell my wife what he told me which he does while I take a time out for myself. I then ask my wife about the direct debits and I get the hostile tone of voice again and tell her I can only report the information I have. I retrieve the invoice for her, get the kids to give her kisses and cuddles and leave the store.
So here I am now, in the loungeroom, kids are in the other living area watching cartoons and I'm not going near them. I was fine just three hours ago and now I'm feeling very flustered and frustrated. Stupid thing is, I'll look back on half of today later and laugh. Hell, even the bit about doing too much housework is
still funny to me even if my wife doesn't see the funny side. I'm glad I have my sense of humour.
All I can say is roll on 8pm... kids' bedtime. I love them dearly and I do love my wife but today just isn't my day I think. Lots of work to do on myself
My wife and I have been watching TV in separate rooms tonight, something that has been the norm lately, and she came in to where I am about half an hour ago to reiterate what she said earlier. She acknowledged that I may find the housework issue funny but it was a serious issue to her. More serious was that I had discussed our relationship with third parties. She was very clear and to the point. I listened but there was no opportunity to validate as she said her piece and left. It was a verbal 4x2 and a half.
I don't really know what to make of it all at the moment. They're her feelings, she's very clear about them, she's giving me a road map to follow yet I don't know where it leads, and yet I keep stuffing this up. I seem to get it and not all at the same time. I understand why she's so angry and I deserved the serve she gave me yet at the same time I don't have anyone to talk to about my situation outside of this website and my head is being held to the guillotine every time I make a mistake. It's very difficult to get used to this filter she has where she catches all my errors and misses all my good deeds. You'd think after four months I'd be all over what not to do and yet I seem to be caught out when I slip up and it sets her off big time. It's incredibly frustrating that she doesn't cut me any slack and even more frustrating that I don't seem to be able to get on the same page as her. It feels like one step forward and three steps back at the moment.
B,
First....You belittled your wife to someone. This really isn't about you talking to a third party, it is about how you talked about her (remember the 5LL book....You do not do this as it is not loving behavior).
Now is it dumb what you did...Yes....Now use it as motivation to not doing it again.
On multiple occasions you were not listened to yesterday....and it frustrated you and is your number one hate....How does it feel? Once again...use that as motivation to change how you communicate as people surely feel the same with you.
Kudo's on handling the situation with your son....Sounds like a much better talk than you two are used to having.
FYI....There is no slack in your world....You either do or don't. So don't expect slack as it isn't coming....You used your slack coupons up awhile ago.
Yeah, I get that. The post before is just venting. A lot of the time now I pick up when something negative happens and I actually tell myself that I've brought this upon myself or if I'm hurting, I tell myself I've put my wife through more than I'm going through. I understand why I'm here, I just wish there was an easier way out and of course, I know it's not going to happen. It comes down to being frustrated at myself for creating this situation more than being frustrated at my wife for how she treats me.
Did you ever apologize to your wife or tell her that you understand why what you said you boss sounded hurtful? Maybe I missed that in this thread? You said you didn't get the chance becausr she left the room-- could you send an email or write her a note?
I apologised earlier in the day when she initially mentioned it. Her medium of choice at the moment is text/Facebook and I respond to her in kind. She's not interested in face-to-face communication about relationship stuff. I can certainly write something down though but I'd probably be repeating what I've already said. My current thought is that I've apologised, now I have to just put my head down, bum up and actually do what she says.
My boss took my wife's phone call and told me my wife was on the phone. I was with a customer and couldn't get to the phone so I figured that meant to call her back. I didn't know that my boss had put the phone down with my wife on the line. While this was happening there was some banter and I mentioned to my boss that I had got into trouble for doing too much housework. I still find this hilarious (despite how I currently feel) because you just don't hear of women complaining about men doing too much housework. I get on the phone and my wife tells me she heard that I'd said it. Oops.
This ^^^ is an example of what I was saying yesterday...
Two people, see this entirely different.
I am also not saying that it is a bad thing either. The only bad part is that I'm not quite sure that you see it.
You say that you find it hilarious, and it was meant as a joke....yes ???
Now I'm not gonna bash you about it, cause truth is ?
It is a little funny.
Now for the flip side....
The thing that a WAS fears the most, is judgement for their actions.
They KNOW that what they are doing is (morally) wrong in the eyes of most people. They do not want to be held up to the cross by anyone because they do a fine job of it them self.
They especially take exception to it happening around anyone that they place on a higher social plain than they are on, or from anyone that holds a "position" of authority. Such as Boss, or a Priest, Mother, Father, etc.....
And to top that....
She felt that from you, in front of your Boss...
And you were laughing about it.....
Think about what things she may have felt when she heard that...
Judgement ??
Compassion ??
Trust ??
Guilt ??
Controlled ??
Manipulated ??
It was what we call around here....a Truth Dart
And in the end ?
You DID NOT own your words to your boss. You tried to apologize for saying it, when you weren't really sorry for them...
Did she feel that your words were consistent ???
You have told her that you do not want a Divorce...yes ???
Did she feel..
Loved ?
Cherished ?
Wanted ?
Respected ?
Chosen ?
Barry....I'm not taking her side in this, I just want YOU to see this clearly...
Joke or not....
Your words matter....
I've tried to sit on as much of these posts as I can for the past couple of days and really think about them. I don't know that I have any answers though. Perhaps I haven't been thinking hard enough, I don't know. I've been focused on the listening stuff and yet I still can't get that right. I try and be more patient with the kids and they just frustrate me to a point that I either let them do what they like or I snap and everything that comes out is very loud and autocratic. I feel I need to get away but at the end of the day, I'd come back and things will be the same. Honeslty, I don't know who I want to be or where my focus should lie so I've focused on the things my wife has told me she doesn't like. I feel I've learned a lot of tools but I don't feel that I've learned the appropriate listening tools... or it's not that I don't listen but my memory is terrible. I do honestly feel that I have improved at listening but it's hard to tell because I am my only judge. My wife isn't there to say "I appreciate that you listened to me". The only feedback I get from her is when I stuff up. It's hard to judge my own progress when I see things differently to those around me.
As for yesterday's incident, I apologised this morning again. I really didn't have anything new as I felt I covered it in yesterday's apology. I did it though because her truth dart came after my initial apology and in person so I knew she was serious. I didn't get a response and I didn't expect one. I understand that she felt betrayed but I don't honestly think she feels love or cherished by me right now. She knows I don't want to divorce, I've made it very clear that I want to earn her trust back and she hasn't run for the hills. I'm sure she doesn't feel respected by me and I believe she would feel chosen by me but would rather not right now. I do honestly think that her getting angry is a good thing as she's been devoid of emotion towards me recently and this hit her at the core of her frustrations with me and my infidelity. Of course, it could just be mindreading and she's just throwing a fit but my wife hasn't fit the description of "crazy" and if she didn't feel anything, I don't honestly believe she would have told me what she did just to throw it in my face. She is standing up for herself a lot more now but I think she would have kept it to herself if she "didn't care" about me anymore. It's hard not to mindread and I try hard not to but as I said, emotion is something that she has kept from me recently.
Barrybran
I am thinking that you should compliment her once a day for something she does in the house...Thanks for working so hard, Thanks for making dinner, etc....Especially compliment her for something you don't think she did the best in the world. That said, don't compliment her on how she looks or interacts with you....Look for compliments based on things she does, not on her specifically.
Very good advice. I read an interesting article on this point….. For any R to last, daily “complimenting” for the ACTIONS the person does is KEY. Barrybran, I would highly suggest that you try this. I would not go overboard either. A simple thank you for XXX, it was appreciated it…is enough.
yes, I'm up for an experiment but I honestly don't feel as though I'm ready in terms of personal growth.
What exactly is personal growth for YOU BarryBran? Mach gave you some very good insight….. things to ask yourself. It appears that you are focus more on doing things that YOU think YOUR W wants you to do/change more so that things that YOU YOURSELF want to change. IMO, until you really figure out HOW to make changes FOR YOURSELF….you are not going to feel the way that you want to feel.
Honeslty, I don't know who I want to be or where my focus should lie so I've focused on the things my wife has told me she doesn't like.
Stop for a sec and ask yourself this question……..
Would you want to be with someone who does not know who they want to be?
I don't really know what to make of it all at the moment. They're her feelings, she's very clear about them, she's giving me a road map to follow yet I don't know where it leads, and yet I keep stuffing this up. I seem to get it and not all at the same time.
You seem to be spending more time worrying about what SHE FEELS than working on HOW to get YOURSELF to FEEL the way YOU want to FEEL.
IMO, I can see you are trying Barry. Trying really hard. Maybe that is the issue. You are trying to undo your past mistakes. You are trying to make sure you validate and listen to your wife. You are trying to become a better for parent FOR your kids.
The one thing I do not see enough of….is YOU trying to be BARRY. Just Barry. Not the Barry that everyone including your W and your kids what to see.
The ripping apart of oneself and the work to figure out “who I want to be when I grow up”….is f*cking tough. It is a process. There is not right or wrong answer Barry. The answer is in you. The answer really is….who does Barry want to be……when no one is around…..regardless of other actions…..the Barry that will feel good about himself….
Keep digging brother…
Take a look at Mach’s questions…. Think about them….focus on them.
You have some of the best people I know posting to you. Listen to them.
Go read LFW’s old post.
I believe you can do it dude. It really takes one step.
Choice.
I can tell you this....
The reason that you struggle around the kids...
Has more to do with you, than it does them.
The ripping apart of oneself and the work to figure out “who I want to be when I grow up”….is f*cking tough. It is a process. There is not right or wrong answer Barry. The answer is in you. The answer really is….who does Barry want to be……when no one is around…..regardless of other actions…..the Barry that will feel good about himself….
Your intent is honorable Barry. You are trying to do the "right" things.
And you are losing yourself, in the process.....
Try and stick to answering the basic questions above, and see what you come up with....
Thanks guys. I had a thought last night that I should buy a large notebook, head down to the park and think, write and relax. I feel I should be getting all of this stuff better by now but between people here and my wife there's a lot of layers being peeled back. As confused as I am about a lot of things, I am very thankful that my wife has participated in exposing my flaws, even if she's only doing it as standing up for herself, than shutting down and withdrawing like she used to.
As for the compliments, two people have suggested it now so that outweighs the one (me) who is unsure of it so I'll give it a go. Some compliments are easy; my wife made an amazing spaghetti last night and my son and I were genuinely heaping praise on her... and going back for seconds
Try and stick to answering the basic questions above, and see what you come up with
I had to Google "who do I want to be" last night. Pretty stupid for a 30yo man. Admittedly, it helped though. Asking who I want to be is pretty vague and I honestly have no idea. I think a lot but I have a million different things going on in my mind and I'm not so good at stealing myself away to really spend some time by myself and think. When I have downtime I try to really relax and do what I want to do as I'm forever chasing after work, my house and my kids. I know I need to think deeply more often but I also need to unwind too. As a middle ground, I decided I'd get a notebook and start writing things down. What I've done that makes me happy, what I want to do, what I want to have, what I don't want to do, etc. Just some thoughts to try and shape the direction I want to head in. I didn't find a notebook so I'll grab one from my wife's work on Sunday but I've found some printer paper to get me started. I figure I'll have some thoughts along the way and write them down rather than trying to force myself to think of things in one go.
Something I'm considering is changing the way I dress. I usually get around in t-shirts, surf-brand shorts and a pair of smart sandals. I feel very comfortable in what I wear and I feel I look good in it. I'm only 30 so I feel that I look attractive in what I wear but when I look at 40-50 year olds who wear t-shirts, something doesn't quite sit right with me. I've always admired the dress sense of those men aged 40-60 who dress nicely all the time, nothing fancy, but a collared shirt tucked into a decent pair pants and nice shoes or workboots. I wear shorts a lot, even in winter, so I'm not sure that I'm ready to retire the shorts but I think a more mature look is something I need.
I was able to compliment my wife today. It was very easy to be honest. I went to her work to exchange car keys and she was busy so I headed out the back to her locker. The back area was quite empty which has been a rarity with all the stock my wife's company keeps sending her. She's been putting in a lot of hours at work since November so I know she's put in a lot of effort to get the stock on the floor and out of the back dock. I left the store and sent her a text saying that the back dock looks great and that she'd done well. I didn't get a response but I wasn't meant to. It was a genuine compliment and she takes it how she sees fit.
I received a couple of new books today so I'm looking forward to getting into those once I'm done with TWOTSM. Oh, and I bought my home gym. My bank account isn't going to like me but I'll now have flexibility and convenience with my workouts and most importantly, no excuse!
B,
What Mach and Eric have said is great stuff....Read, Listen, and Think about it all over and over.
Great personal change can only happen when you are at the bottom of your bucket.....at your low. Excuses and expectations keep you from getting to the bottom as they are nothing more than illusions of your perception. Remove the excuses and illusions......accept the truths of who you are now....and start working towards who you want to become.
Be the changes man....Be the changes.
Question: Some thoughts are popping to mind but some of them involve my wife. I feel that what I want is important in this process and I don't plan on living my life alone. Should I be including my wife on a 'when times are good' basis, or writing them down as a 'with someone regardless of who it is' or avoiding these types of things?
For example, I want my wife to be able to trust me, to feel comfortable giving me and receiving my affection and I would like to make love as well as have sex with her. I don't have any intention to do these things with anyone else however I understand that my wife may not be the person who benefits from the person I'll aspire to be. I also feel that these things will be an important part of my life moving forward though I understand I have a lot of personal growth to do before I experience certain things with my wife again.
Question: Some thoughts are popping to mind but some of them involve my wife. I feel that what I want is important in this process and I don't plan on living my life alone. Should I be including my wife on a 'when times are good' basis, or writing them down as a 'with someone regardless of who it is' or avoiding these types of things?
No....This is about becoming you again.
Thinking in "couple" terms will come later on...
For example, I want my wife to be able to trust me, to feel comfortable giving me and receiving my affection and I would like to make love as well as have sex with her. I don't have any intention to do these things with anyone else however I understand that my wife may not be the person who benefits from the person I'll aspire to be. I also feel that these things will be an important part of my life moving forward though I understand I have a lot of personal growth to do before I experience certain things with my wife again.
Okay....
So let's start your list with...
Trustworthy....
You want to be trustworthy....
That should be a quality that YOU want to show...regardless if it is your wife or not....
Try thinking along those lines...
More later....
These are traits that I would like to show. Admittedly, they come mostly from things my wife has told me and not showing them appears to affect multiple relationships:
Good listener
Reliable
Good communicator
Faithful
Patient
Trustworthy
Fair
Loyal
Calm
I had to Google "who do I want to be" last night. Pretty stupid for a 30yo man. Admittedly, it helped though. Asking who I want to be is pretty vague and I honestly have no idea. I think a lot but I have a million different things going on in my mind and I'm not so good at stealing myself away to really spend some time by myself and think. When I have downtime I try to really relax and do what I want to do as I'm forever chasing after work, my house and my kids. I know I need to think deeply more often but I also need to unwind too. As a middle ground, I decided I'd get a notebook and start writing things down. What I've done that makes me happy, what I want to do, what I want to have, what I don't want to do, etc. Just some thoughts to try and shape the direction I want to head in. I didn't find a notebook so I'll grab one from my wife's work on Sunday but I've found some printer paper to get me started. I figure I'll have some thoughts along the way and write them down rather than trying to force myself to think of things in one go.
Please remember to go easy on yourself too....
Finding Barry isn't something that is going to happen overnight, or during one thought provoking instance....
It will happen over time, slowly yet positively. You will watch other people that you admire, and you will add traits of people that you consider role models. You will incorporate those things into your everyday values and your core values.
You will read things that you want, or situations that you would like to handle similarly...
Take it all in, and sort it out, so that it "fits" you...
Set aside a certain amount of time each day to think, time to play. time to give back, time to unwind....
Something I'm considering is changing the way I dress. I usually get around in t-shirts, surf-brand shorts and a pair of smart sandals. I feel very comfortable in what I wear and I feel I look good in it. I'm only 30 so I feel that I look attractive in what I wear but when I look at 40-50 year olds who wear t-shirts, something doesn't quite sit right with me. I've always admired the dress sense of those men aged 40-60 who dress nicely all the time, nothing fancy, but a collared shirt tucked into a decent pair pants and nice shoes or workboots. I wear shorts a lot, even in winter, so I'm not sure that I'm ready to retire the shorts but I think a more mature look is something I need.
I see this a little different than you might expect.....
My first question is why ?
Then again, I think that you are answering a little bit, yet I see something that you may not..
When I first read that, I thought: Yea, I get that....
I sense that you fear judgment, and maybe not today or tomorrow, but as you say.....down the road....
I want you to think about this though....
Why do you fear that judgement ????
I would assume that it comes from a projection within yourself. That maybe you fear judgement, because YOU are willing to give judgement..
Is that something that you feel within yourself ???
Is being judgmental something that is on your 'bad' list ???
Think about it, and see if it is something that fits....
I was able to compliment my wife today. It was very easy to be honest. I went to her work to exchange car keys and she was busy so I headed out the back to her locker. The back area was quite empty which has been a rarity with all the stock my wife's company keeps sending her. She's been putting in a lot of hours at work since November so I know she's put in a lot of effort to get the stock on the floor and out of the back dock. I left the store and sent her a text saying that the back dock looks great and that she'd done well. I didn't get a response but I wasn't meant to. It was a genuine compliment and she takes it how she sees fit.
Very nice....
No expectations though....you are doing this for you, not her...
I received a couple of new books today so I'm looking forward to getting into those once I'm done with TWOTSM.
Don't forget to read some "fun" stuff too....
It IS important....
I probably am judgmental. I remember I had very strong views about not dating single mums and then I married one. I'm sure I could find more examples over time.
I am reading solely self-help type stuff when it comes to books (I'm not much of a bookworm) but I do a tonne of reading from websites everyday, particularly following sport and news.
I probably am judgmental. I remember I had very strong views about not dating single mums and then I married one. I'm sure I could find more examples over time.
I am reading solely self-help type stuff when it comes to books (I'm not much of a bookworm) but I do a tonne of reading from websites everyday, particularly following sport and news.
One last thing about this.....
Take the "probably" out of the equation....
For the below reason...
Great personal change can only happen when you are at the bottom of your bucket.....at your low. Excuses and expectations keep you from getting to the bottom as they are nothing more than illusions of your perception. Remove the excuses and illusions......accept the truths of who you are now....and start working towards who you want to become.
You either are, or you aren't....
Probably, is the gray area that allows you to have excuses.
Accept it, if it is truth, and find out WHY you are that way...
And until you kill the root, the weeds will grow....
Barrybran
I think the list that you outlined below are great qualities that you should strive for.
Good listener
Reliable
Good communicator
Faithful
Patient
Trustworthy
Fair
Loyal
Calm
One of the things that I believe Mach was pointing out could be applied to all of these….
You have come up with a list of qualities..for each of these….I would suggest by writing down (when you have time – don’t rush) what they mean to you and how or what actions you see as positive in these. For example: define reliable. How do you define reliable? What would someone that is reliable look like to YOU?
Get what I mean?
I only said "probably" judgmental because I don't know. I don't consider myself to be judgmental but a strong theme in my threads is that how I see myself isn't necessarily how others see myself. To use your weed analogy, I have no idea about plants so what I think it a nice grass/plant may in fact be a weed that needs killing. In terms of judgment, I feel that I have certain standards, which I feel are a good thing, that may be either be misinterpreted by other people or, and I'm starting to think this could be more likely, not exercised constructively by myself. I thought I was a good listener; turns out I'm not. Does that make sense?
Journaling:
My wife got home from work last night and took the kids over to family friends, where they'll be staying the weekend. I've been working on finding a balance between doing too much housework and not enough and our house was quite messy last night. When my wife came home she tidied up the kitchen and was quite loud, as though she was in a huff about something. I was playing video games in the same room and tried my best to ignore her and to act as if everything was fine. It doesn't feel right to just leave things for her and it doesn't feel right to just leave her be but I did anyway.
I won't see much of her over the weekend as she's working today, I'm working until 8:30pm tonight, I'm working from 7am tomorrow and she's going out of town for the day tomorrow. I finish work at midday tomorrow so I'll have the house to myself to relax and hopefully get some more of the shed clear in preparation of setting up my home gym.
Journaling:
It feels good to be digging deeper into my own issues. I still have a lot of confidence that my wife and I can work things out as it's not about a lack of chemistry but knowing what each other likes and dislikes and how to treat each other. It is still tough to deal with those things not in my control though.
Last night, I finished work and came home and the house was empty. I went to bed at about 11pm and my wife hadn't returned home. I don't feel sad so much now but I do still feel uncomfortable when she's not around. I woke this morning at 5:30am to find she still hadn't been home. My mind wandered and I went to and fro thinking what ifs and killing them. I went to work and I was fine.
My wife went out of town today to do some shopping for herself and the kids. She sent me a message while I was at work gloating about the kids' stuff. I said it sounds like she'd done well and that the kids would love their new stuff. I had a short day today so I've come home and my wife still hasn't been home so she's gone out of town from wherever she stayed the night. She called a while ago to ask if I needed anything from the town she was in but the things I need are clothes, etc and only I can really get them.
Things like this do highlight the importance of not mindreading. I'm getting better at stopping the thoughts but I still find it tough not having them in the first place. I know my wife doesn't love me or much like me right now but she still thinks of me by sending me messages about what she's bought the kids and asking if I need anything too.
This afternoon I'll continue with some yard work, head out and do some shopping and then I'll have some downtime and try to think about the questions I've been posed.
Barrybran
I think the list that you outlined below are great qualities that you should strive for.
Good listener
Reliable
Good communicator
Faithful
Patient
Trustworthy
Fair
Loyal
Calm
One of the things that I believe Mach was pointing out could be applied to all of these….
You have come up with a list of qualities..for each of these….I would suggest by writing down (when you have time – don’t rush) what they mean to you and how or what actions you see as positive in these. For example: define reliable. How do you define reliable? What would someone that is reliable look like to YOU?
Get what I mean?
I had a go at defining each quality. I did this relatively quickly but I did it when I was calm and relaxed and on my own rather than trying to force answers.
Reliable
- To me, someone who is reliable would be someone I can call upon to help me with things. They may not always be available but I know that when they aren’t, they have a genuine reason and they will endeavour to be available in the future.
Good listener
- I feel a good listener is someone who makes eye contact, doesn’t look around the room and isn’t doing anything distracting such as fiddling with their fingers or playing with their phone. I feel that when someone is listening to you, you have a connection with them.
Good communicator
- A good communicator to me is someone who is clear and concise, polite, uses the appropriate volume and tone of voice for the situation and most importantly, knows what they want to say.
Faithful
- Someone who is faithful, to me, is someone who doesn’t cheat on someone important to them: a spouse, a friend, a family member.
Patient
- I feel someone who is patient is someone who can ride through a lot of nonsense and respond to a situation calmly, articulately, sensitively and fairly.
Trustworthy
- Someone who deserves the trust of another person. They can give their word to someone, is believed and their actions support their words.
Fair
- Someone who weighs up a situation and delivers an outcome that is beneficial to all parties while achieving specific goals.
Loyal
- Someone who is loyal is someone who fights for and defends their friends and family and remains faithful to them.
Calm
- I feel that someone who is calm is someone who does not allow themselves to be easily excited or aroused in a stressful situation and can exercise patience where required.
Day 1 of trying to remain calm with the kids. It's only 8:30am and I feel like I'm going to have an aneurysm. I think Daddy is going to have a few time outs today *facepalm*
Question:
My wife has pointed out that I'm not as good a listener as I thought I was and I've been working on improving. I've always felt that her communication is poor as well. In my mind, she brings something up, it's half-discussed and it doesn't come up again until there is a problem. The problem revolves around her thinking an issue has been sorted and me thinking it has not.
Two instances occurred over the weekend that I would like some advice about:
1) My wife and I planned to have our kids stay at home this weekend. My boss asked me to take her shifts so I discussed it with my wife, we agreed that the kids would stay with family friends for the weekend and I asked the lady if she would like to have them. The family friends are like grandparents to our children, our children stay with them nearly every weekend and the response I got was that they didn't know the kids weren't staying with them. I relayed this information to my wife and I heard nothing in return from either the family friend or my wife and I let the issue be. As darkness came, my kids hadn't been returned home and my wife said "I thought you discussed this with [the family friend]" and I told her that I thought my wife had sorted it out. I didn't tell her that I thought my wife had sorted it because my wife hadn't responded to my message last week; I left it; and
2) Last week my wife needed to book her car in for a service. I arranged the service and told her the date. She was worried about money and I told her not to worry, that I had enough funds to cover the service if she couldn't afford it. Time came and went and she never mentioned using my money and I bought a home gym in the meantime and now don't have enough money to cover the service on her car. I told her this morning that I had dropped the car off and that I would be in later today to collect her bank card to pay for the service. She said she thought I was paying for it and I told her that it was discussed but never decided upon.
I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY want to improve the communication with my wife. Forget marriage, relationship, etc right now. At the very least we are living in the same house and parents to the same kids. We are on vastly different pages though, I am working my arse off to be a better listener and person and I am becoming increasingly frustrated that it's all on me to improve two-way communication. I don't expect her to change but I feel I need to express my frustration to her so she knows where I stand and can make her own decision whether to take my feelings on board or disregard them. I can see how the car situation was misunderstood on both sides but the kids/work thing was clear as day and both instances have arisen because I've placed the ball in her court and she's not done anything with it but thought she has.
Any advice on how I approach this?
Scratch that request. The car was ready so I went to collect my wife's bank card and collected the car for her. She asked about the service and the cost, which was paid for with her new credit card. She said she told me last week that she wasn't able to afford the service and I responded that I had not been asked to pay for the service (I only offered to do so). I kept it short and left.
I feel very strongly that communication between my wife and I needs to be addressed. I can see it becoming a boundary at some point, perhaps even leading one of us to frustration and moving out. I sincerely hope she chooses to discuss the issue as I'm not prepared to live with a WAS who hates me and does not want to communicate with me about the kids and day-to-day things. If that's what's going to happen, I'm going to start making decisions without her so I know what's going on and I don't think that is fair or necessary. Anyway, I sent her this:
Hi
I feel that we’re misunderstanding each other quite a bit and I’d like to address it. Regardless of our relationship status, we share the same house and kids and we have to communicate. I am working hard at listening and communicating and I will make mistakes from time to time. I feel confused by some situations between us though.
When you went to the dentist you said you needed my help and that you’d pay me back. You were explicit in your request for assistance and I was ready to help even though you didn’t need it in the end. I felt confident that I understood you and was in a position to help you out.
A couple of weeks ago you told me that the car rego was due. I asked if you would like me to book the car in and you said yes. I understood this clearly, booked the car in and wrote the date down for you. You did say that you worried about not being able to afford it and I did say that I had enough money to cover it if you needed it and not to stress about it.
As the week passed, you received your wages and a new credit card in the mail. No mention was made of needing money for the car service. As we are handling our own finances, I believed you had it covered and my money was available for any use, which I used to add to savings, buy food and a home gym that will be arriving next week. Since you expressed that you would have trouble paying for the service, I understand that you felt you could rely on me to cover the cost and I am sorry that I wasn’t able to do so. I felt confused this morning when you said you thought I was paying for the service as I wasn’t explicitly asked to do so and keeping that money aside would have been no more than an assumption of your needs.
I would like to know your feelings on the above situation. As I mentioned, we communicate regularly and I would like that communication to be productive for both of us. In the meantime, I will transfer money back from my savings account so it is available for the green slip and registration if you need it.
Not exactly DBing but as I said, I'm not spending another 40-50 years in a marriage with poor communication, another 15 years as a co-parent with poor communication or another 3-12 months as a housemate with poor communication, whatever the case may be.
Please feel free to critique this as I would love to learn how to communicate with my wife better.
This is the response I got. It is very clear and I am very happy with it. Sure, there are signs of distance but I am more concerned with establishing good communication than I am with our marriage right now.
Communication obviously is completely [censored] atm.
You've ASSUMED I would ve able to pay for the car all the while knowing exactly how much I earn and how much I generally have left over.... do the math. I ultimately got the credit card for emergency so I would NEVER have to ask you for any help.
Before this we had a discussion about rego and you said you'd have enough money to handle it. Case closed. That's what I was under the impression was going to happen.
Not sure where you thought I'd be finding $1400 for everything in that short time.
As for the dentist yes I asked for help and I am so glad I didn't need your help in the end.
I am trying to be more independent. This is what separation is. Being our own parties but being dual parents.
If that's not clear enough then ill start writing down everything in future and clarify it down to a tee.
Do not make dinner. I'll do it when I get home.
Stop washing my clothes. They're my responsibility. Do the kids if they have any. And I will do the same when I do mine.
We can set CLEAR concise boundaries. That way neither of us ASSUMES anything ever again.
All bills regarding household/cars etc will be split down the middle.
Anything regarding the kids will be done the same way.
I'll spend time to myself for an hour Tuesdays Wednesdays and Thursdays (depending on meetings days may change) you can use the other 4 days.
And I got this:
I'd appreciate if you kept your opinion about how I look etc to yourself.
I don't appreciate it being all over Facebook. You have every right to admire etc but know it's not appreciated at all and certainly not when I see it on Facebook.
She bought a onesie the other day and it really highlighted her figure. She looked amazing in it... and now I can't tell her or the world anymore.
Well it seems like you have to go LRT , you are pushing her and she is responding to the pressure, those emails are basically fish communication...not point made besides one attacking each other and the other one defending...I mean if what you want its her not to talk to you and go separate ways, then this is definitely the way to go.....
This is what it happens, she is upset and you instead of showing yourself in a happy level you went down to her level...2 people talking in a resentful level can not end very well....
Also you keep pursuing by publishing comments about her on facebook, she "hates" you at the moment, why you keep feeding her?
The only way you can improve communication its by letting her alone, she will eventually change her level of anger and she will be able to talk to you with almost no resentments or she might have resntments for many years...
B,
YE hit it right on the nose man....You definitely need to STFU!!! Around your wife, about your wife to friends and co-workers....Pretty much everywhere. It is time to go DIM, give her tons of space, and focus on you.
As for the communication....For first post on the car repair had me thinking you were covering the expense. You want a good drill for wife....When it is something that HAS to be discussed;
Discussing issue x,y,z-
Either person- We need to discuss x,y, z
You- "What are your feelings on x,y,z"
Wife- Expressess Her feelings on x,y,z
YOU LISTEN
You- "So I heard you correct, this is how you feel we should handle x,y,z"...then reiterate
Wife-Acting impatient as your are repeating back to her what you heard....I suggest changing the wording
You- Either you agree with how she wants to handle it, tell her you agree and end conversation or you explain to her your feelings with words like I and me....No you to her...Explain your view
Then...and only then do you compromise.
Once again....get out of her grill all the time. To clarify...being in another room while focused on her in the other room is not getting out of her grill.
I didn't really understand the grill thing to be honest.
I can see how the Facebook thing can be misconstrued as pursuing. It was an honest compliment and I chose the wrong forum.
The communication thing stumps me though. From what you've written, I'm on the right track. I could have better worded my offer of keeping cash available for the service. I know that my wife didn't explicitly take me up on that offer though. This kind of thing happens a lot. She thinks it's sorted, I think it still needs to be sorted, she gets impatient when I try to sort it and making assumptions is a dangerous road to travel. So where do I go from here with communication? It has to be resolved.
I didn't really understand the grill thing to be honest.
Just Lost being all hip....lol
Interchange "grill" , with "face"....
I.E. = all up in her business..
I can see how the Facebook thing can be misconstrued as pursuing. It was an honest compliment and I chose the wrong forum.
The communication thing stumps me though. From what you've written, I'm on the right track. I could have better worded my offer of keeping cash available for the service. I know that my wife didn't explicitly take me up on that offer though. This kind of thing happens a lot. She thinks it's sorted, I think it still needs to be sorted, she gets impatient when I try to sort it and making assumptions is a dangerous road to travel. So where do I go from here with communication? It has to be resolved.
Most of this (from what I read), can be resolved with what we started talking about last week..
Start focusing on what YOU want, how YOU interact, and to leave her alone with her own stuff.
I feel that you are still focusing way too much on what she is doing and not enough on what you are doing.
Like I said earlier...
Stop allowing her to dictate YOUR life to you....
No one single action is going to make, or break you right now.
You HAVE to stop trying to fix this marriage.
As far as the communication ???
No matter how much, or how little you communicate with her, her's will always be limited coming back to you.
She is going to twist things, and turn things to be in her favor no matter how clear it is from the start.
And you allowing her to twist your shorts, is only hurting you.
She wants her "independence" Barry....
The best thing to do ? Is to give it to her...all of it...
Her car breaks down ???
Sorry, I hope that you can work that out....
You need dental work ???
Sorry, I hope you can get an appointment...
The kids need shoes ??
Okay, I will take them on Saturday, and I will leave you the receipt, and you can reimburse me 50%....
(that ^^^ is concise, clear, and leaves NO room for mis-understandings)
She wants freedom ???
Give it to her, and for right now...
Focus on the relationships in your life that fulfill you...
I have to vent here. It's incredibly frustrating that I have to accept that my wife is so stubborn that she'd rather live with animosity than to get on the same page and make our day-to-day lives easier by fixing our communication. I'm no angel, this process has highlighted that, but it is completely absurd to me that someone is willing to sabotage their own lives under the guise of independence. The marriage is done, ok. She wants her own life, ok. We have a house to run and kids to take care of. Making those things harder by not being willing to try communicating effectively... not ok.
I've thought recently whether it would be beneficial to say to her to just pack up and go. I know deep down things are better with her around. But this stubbornness is ridiculous and it affects everyone.
I wrote what I wrote to stand up for myself. To say "hey, your behaviour is not acceptable." Again, I have my part in this but I can't stand back and just work on myself and expect communcation to improve without working on it. Communication is a two-way street and I expect it to improve. I feel that it will become a boundary for me at some point. Something along the lines of "I tried to communicate, you weren't cooperating so I've made this decision without you." In a nutshell, what you just said Mach. Honestly though, it's not me. I'm a nice person, despite my errors and flaws, and I firmly believe the right thing to do is to work together to ensure the kids and the house are looked after. It doesn't make any sense to me to act in an "I'm not going to work with you" manner.
As I said, I had to vent. It's frustrating and as much as I can accept that my marriage as it is is over, I can not accept her attitude towards day-to-day communication as acceptable.
And that communication thing is for everyone... if my kids treat me as my wife is treating me, they'll be figuring things out on their own too. Maybe that's what you're getting at Mach but I expect children and teenagers to be difficult, not fully grown, intelligent adults.
We have a house to run and kids to take care of.
The sooner you start to think that there is no "we" at this moment, the sooner you will recover and maybe one day be able to talk to her about this issues.
Making those things harder by not being willing to try communicating effectively... not ok.
Trust me on this, the only one making things harder now its you, she has gave you her point, doesnt want to be with you or communicate with you, you dont accept this, instead you try to control it and while you do that, you keep as others told you keep been in the grill....
Imagine your W as a house now, this house its on fire!! And the house its empty, so you try to go inside to see the effect of the fire and you carry a glass of water...
What happens? Well you burn yourself... Every single time you burn yourself, are you helping at all with the glass of water?? Nop
Wouldnt be better to let the house burn, recognize that you are powerless and meanwhile work on yourself? Yes, that would be the best, once the fire its gone, then you can go inside the house or buy another one, but you are not going to burn yourself in the process....it will definitly not help.
So now choose, you wanna burn yourself or spend the time that you have now taking care of yourself??
I have to vent here. It's incredibly frustrating that I have to accept that my wife is so stubborn that she'd rather live with animosity than to get on the same page and make our day-to-day lives easier by fixing our communication. I'm no angel, this process has highlighted that, but it is completely absurd to me that someone is willing to sabotage their own lives under the guise of independence. The marriage is done, ok. She wants her own life, ok. We have a house to run and kids to take care of. Making those things harder by not being willing to try communicating effectively... not ok.
I've thought recently whether it would be beneficial to say to her to just pack up and go. I know deep down things are better with her around. But this stubbornness is ridiculous and it affects everyone.
I wrote what I wrote to stand up for myself. To say "hey, your behaviour is not acceptable." Again, I have my part in this but I can't stand back and just work on myself and expect communcation to improve without working on it. Communication is a two-way street and I expect it to improve. I feel that it will become a boundary for me at some point. Something along the lines of "I tried to communicate, you weren't cooperating so I've made this decision without you." In a nutshell, what you just said Mach. Honestly though, it's not me. I'm a nice person, despite my errors and flaws, and I firmly believe the right thing to do is to work together to ensure the kids and the house are looked after. It doesn't make any sense to me to act in an "I'm not going to work with you" manner.
As I said, I had to vent. It's frustrating and as much as I can accept that my marriage as it is is over, I can not accept her attitude towards day-to-day communication as acceptable.
I completely understand Barry....
And I wish that I could say that it will get better, more satisfying, more fulfilling in the immediate future...
Yet I can't say that to you....
Understand that the more complete that YOU become, the more that she is going to pull away from you....
The better that YOU communicate, the worse that she will want to communicate....
Think of it this way...
You admit that you were somewhat of an asshat for several years....yes ???
How many years did SHE carry the brunt of the marriage ???
There is an angry fire brewing inside of her now, that gets fed by the things that you do differently, and better.
Your better choices get magnified ten-fold...
And ALL of the anger HAS to come out of her, before there is ANY chance of things changing....
The better you are, the more that she thinks "why did Barry wait until it came to this, to change"....
The worse that you do, the more that she can say..." Look, Barry is still an asshat"...
And that will justify her decision to leave the marriage...
Which way would you rather that anger to come out ????
That is why I say, that you need to take these steps, and make these changes for YOU, and YOU alone....
Either way this ends, YOU will be a better person for it...
And THAT ^^^ is what gives you the BEST chance for the future.....
Yet for now, maybe it is your turn to carry the brunt....
Barry
I had a go at defining each quality. I did this relatively quickly but I did it when I was calm and relaxed and on my own rather than trying to force answers.
Reliable
- To me, someone who is reliable would be someone I can call upon to help me with things. They may not always be available but I know that when they aren’t, they have a genuine reason and they will endeavour to be available in the future.
Good listener
- I feel a good listener is someone who makes eye contact, doesn’t look around the room and isn’t doing anything distracting such as fiddling with their fingers or playing with their phone. I feel that when someone is listening to you, you have a connection with them.
Good communicator
- A good communicator to me is someone who is clear and concise, polite, uses the appropriate volume and tone of voice for the situation and most importantly, knows what they want to say.
Faithful
- Someone who is faithful, to me, is someone who doesn’t cheat on someone important to them: a spouse, a friend, a family member.
Patient
- I feel someone who is patient is someone who can ride through a lot of nonsense and respond to a situation calmly, articulately, sensitively and fairly.
Trustworthy
- Someone who deserves the trust of another person. They can give their word to someone, is believed and their actions support their words.
Fair
- Someone who weighs up a situation and delivers an outcome that is beneficial to all parties while achieving specific goals.
Loyal
- Someone who is loyal is someone who fights for and defends their friends and family and remains faithful to them.
Calm
- I feel that someone who is calm is someone who does not allow themselves to be easily excited or aroused in a stressful situation and can exercise patience where required.
Do YOUR actions live up to YOUR own descriptions of these qualities? If not, then you’ve found the areas of work that you need to focus on.
I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY want to improve the communication with my wife.
Remove the reference …..”with my wife” and replace it with “for myself, so that I am a great communicator”.
At the very least we are living in the same house and parents to the same kids.
In the perfect world…I would agree that since you are living in the same house that the communication could improve. Only problem is 1) you are not in the perfect world and 2) until she decides she wants to communicate and improve communicate, you will be doing this solo. Hence, why we keep saying that the changes you need to make are for YOU and YOU alone. Right NOW – YOU are working on you in the hopes that you can some how rekindle the R with your W. She is NOT. TO expect her to communicate, to work on herself and the M is an expectation that will leave you frustrated.
I don't expect her to change but I feel I need to express my frustration to her so she knows where I stand and can make her own decision whether to take my feelings on board or disregard them.
Read what you wrote again…. Here is how I read it…..
I don’t expect her to change…but I am gonna try and somehow convince her to. I will do that by TELLING HER how I feel, what I want HER to do. If she does not listen, I will TELL HER how FUSTRATED I AM WITH HER ACTIONS. Then if she stills says she does not give a chit, I guilt her by telling her she is disregarding my feelings.
STOP trying to talk to HER about YOUR needs.
Your ACTIONS should speak for YOU. And guess what? Nothing you do or say is going to change HER actions UNTIL she decides she wants them to change. That is not to say, that your R has no hope. Nope. Just that I would not have an EXPECTATION that she is going to want to work on the M based on things YOU “tell her” albeit verbally or in writing. Actions Barry.. Actions.
I'm going to start making decisions without her so I know what's going on
This ^^^^ is one of the BEST things I have seen you write!
I'm not spending another 40-50 years in a marriage with poor communication, another 15 years as a co-parent with poor communication or another 3-12 months as a housemate with poor communication, whatever the case may be.
First off, YOU say when it is OVER – not her. Secondly, you just may have to spend another 15 years co-parenting with someone who is a poor communicator. What are you going to do if she never changes? Stop seeing the kids? Seriously Barry, you need to stop looking at HER and start looking ONLY at YOU.
So I see you sent the letter and she responded.
You pushed and she pushed back!
And now that she has pushed back and from where I sit…made things really clear….. Now your angry.
that I have to accept that my wife is so stubborn that she'd rather live with animosity than to get on the same page and make our day-to-day lives easier by fixing our communication.
“I have to accept”….sounds a little victimish if ya ask me. You do not have to accept it Barry. You are choosing to. Own it.
I'm no angel, this process has highlighted that, but it is completely absurd to me that someone is willing to sabotage their own lives under the guise of independence.
“BUT”…so you admit that you are no angel and then discount it by using “but”. It may be absurd to YOU …it is NOT to HER. She is not sabotaging her life..she is living it. When are YOU going to start living YOURS?
Making those things harder by not being willing to try communicating effectively... not ok.
She did communicate Barry. Just not what YOU wanted to hear. And FTR, who defines “effectively”? You? Her?
Bottom line, you and her Barry are in two different places right now. That does not mean you cannot get back on the same path. You may, you may not. Right now though…you need to worry about YOUR path. Right now, YOU need to focus on YOU and the kids. Let her go.
Communication is a two-way street and I expect it to improve
Whew…”expect” it in big bold letters! Wow. I believe that YOU should expect NOTHING from her. You should EXPECT that YOU will do what YOU need to do. You should EXPECT from yourself that YOU will live the traits of the man you choose to be REGARDLESS of what she does. EXPECTING HER to be a part of improving the communication. Hmmmm….let me ask you a question Barry.
How long did she tolerate your chit?
How long did Barry not know how to communicate?
How long did she Barry try and keep the M going?
Barry, you are pissed off. You still want Mrs Barry to do what YOU want. It ain’t happening – at least not now.
So Barry….remember when you got married?
Do you remember those vows?
Look buddy, only YOU can decide what you want to do going forward.
From where I sit you can….
Option 1 – stay pissed off, continue to be a victim, keep looking at her hoping that she just may change and be miserable
Or
Option 2 – focus on yourself, change the chit about yourself that you do not like, have a plan on where YOU are going in your life (with or without your W), try and be the best dad you can be, live life to the fullest.
Me – I’d vote option 1 but then again I am not you.
Option 1 – stay pissed off, continue to be a victim, keep looking at her hoping that she just may change and be miserable
Or
Option 2 – focus on yourself, change the chit about yourself that you do not like, have a plan on where YOU are going in your life (with or without your W), try and be the best dad you can be, live life to the fullest.
Me – I’d vote option 1 but then again I am not you.
Option 1 ???
Really ???
Or is that Rican math again....
: )
LOL...
Sorry typo....I meant Option 2.
Obviously I have communication problems
I appreciate everyone's feedback. If I was talking to anyone else, I'd continue to ask questions until I was satisfied that I understand the situation. My wife is the only person who resists this and yet she's the person who's opinion I have to consider the most because of the house and kids.
At the core of what I wrote to her was standing up for myself, not saving my marriage. Am I supposed to be standing up for myself or just staying out of her way?
Also, her response to me was fantastic. It was very clear and there is no confusion. That's the kind of communication I'm looking for.
At the core of what I wrote to her was standing up for myself, not saving my marriage. Am I supposed to be standing up for myself or just staying out of her way?
Part of me feels like you were doing more than standing up for yourself. Maybe that is just how I interpreted it.
To answer your question specifically, IMO, you do both. You stay out of her way (mostly because YOU should be living YOUR life) AND you stand up for yourself.
That's confusing. I want my wife here at home and I want things to improve between us. I don't think I should have to deal with confusion and arguments in my day-to-day life because she is choosing to stay this time and is unwilling to communicate effectively. I've tried to adopt a mindset of what I'd do if we were living in separate houses. I won't put up with poor communication if we were in different houses or divorced; I would go it alone and make my own decisions and let her deal with the consequences.
All things considered, I feel good about how this has turned out. despite my wife being more pissed off with me. My wife has finally created the cleaning/cooking roster she spoke of two months ago and I'm happy with that. I don't know what is too much housework or not enough housework. If I'm supposed to do something on Tuesday and I don't, then I deserve to get my bum kicked. If I hold up my end then she has no right to complain.
She also changed her name back to her maiden name on Facebook. Safe to say I'll be getting a few messages from friends and family today. I apologise to friends and family in advance (figuratively) for my non-response.
I just got this too:
What you have in front of you is a quick mock up of a roster of sorts. Obviously dependant on work hours etc. If there is something I've missed note it down and we can discuss it. Yes I am still very very very very much pissed iff at you for last week's transgression. It cemented to ne I cannot trust you and that you think this is all a joke to be laughed about.
I am the only one actually going about my business trying to make my own life and balance of kids. You still seem to be dependent on my opinion or what not in relation to your actions (outside that of our issues). Make your own decisions. If it's about the kids/household that's a discussion we both need to have. If it's about your personal life, thats your department. But if it's anything to do with issues between us, then that certainly is most definitely between us and only us. It's not something to be discussed or laughed about with your boss or complete strangers. Go find yourself. Because you won't find the answers with me.
I'm finally feeling more like me. The me that I seem to have lost along the way. I can and will stand up for myself and the kids.
I kept the marriage going for months and months thinking I could nake things better. But no. In the end I needed to stand up to you and see what I was doing was trying to carry your [censored] and my [censored] together and in the end I could not bear it anymore. It's up To you to work on Yourself. I've told you the things that you've said and done to make this marriage end.
I know my issues are partly to blame. I take ownership of that and that's exactly what I am doing now. I am fixing me. I am fixing myself so I do not ever make the same mistakes I have made in our marriage and in my life for any future I may have. Do the same.
I cannot be friends with you right now because I am carrying a lot of hatred towards you. Until I can let that go please stop looking to me for anything else other than co-parenting.
I want my wife here at home and I want things to improve between us.
I want to hit the lotto and see unicorns – that is what
I. I am entitled to want what I want. Question…based on what I want…how much of that could I control?
I don't think I should have to deal with confusion and arguments in my day-to-day life because she is choosing to stay this time and is unwilling to communicate effectively.
No you should not Barry. Why are you then? Is she forcing you to deal with her? Once again, what can you control?
I won't put up with poor communication if we were in different houses or divorced; I would go it alone and make my own decisions and let her deal with the consequences.
“I will not put up with poor communication” – I get that…ummmm…how does this align with the traits that YOU defined….
Patient
- I feel someone who is patient is someone who can ride through a lot of nonsense and respond to a situation calmly, articulately, sensitively and fairly.
Do you think YOU forcing HER to learn how to communicate on YOUR TERMS in YOUR timeline is patient?
Fair
- Someone who weighs up a situation and delivers an outcome that is beneficial to all parties while achieving specific goals.
Do you think that now that YOU have learned some better communication habits that it is FAIR to her to be sooo….umm….quick to tell her that she needs to communicate better? Is that fair?
For the record, I am not saying you are wrong for standing up for yourself. I just find that the way you go about doing it, may not yield the results that you are really looking for. I feel like some of your responses are driven more by anger than by love.
That said, I am not living it like you are.
My advice is always to keep your comments short and to the point.
As for her letter….you tell me what you think it says and why?
I can see how it comes off as controlling and impatient. This is something that I've sat on for 3.5 years and now that I've had the balls to say something, I've rushed in like a bull at a gate.
This is what else my wife had to say this morning:
Validation of choices. It's like you need approval to cook dinner, or organise [the babysitter] etc. If you know that it has to happen take ownership and make the decision. If you're not happy with decisions I make about the kids, tell me. Don't wander about the house sulking and do not text me days after the fact. Call me or have the balls to talk to me face to face.
Only reason I have messaged today is because the kids were around this morning and I was trying to go to work.
Grow some balls and be a man because to me the entire time we had been together I now see that I definitely wore the pants and that you were just fluffing along.
No one wants a doormat. And I am guilty of letting it go on for so long. I too am guilty of being a doormat. A doormat to how you spoke to me and how you treated me.
I myself have grown balls and stopped the marriage. That took great balls because I could still be severely unhappy and holding more resentment towards you than I do now.
...and...
This co-habitating and co-parenting will only succeed if we both take ownership of [censored] going on.
Atm I feel as though it's not going to even last 3 months and it's quite possible we will have separate households. May be that's the only way to have some clear definition and distance.
My interpretation of her words is that she's done for now, she's working on herself and she's urging me to do the same. I honestly don't read it as "I'm done. Goodbye." I read it as "grow up, get your chit together and maybe we'll have a chance. Until you do though, I'm not interested."
I asked her a while later if she felt listened to this morning. Her response was as follows:
Asking that is another way of gaining validation for yourself.
I get it. She's not on my team right now. I don't know how I come across to people and I'm trying my hardest to find that out and fix it. To me, it's like being given a maths problem, getting the answer wrong, asking for feedback and the teacher saying "you need to figure it out for yourself" without providing any guidance. I don't give my son the answer when he gets something wrong but I do ask him questions to help him find the answer himself. Does any of that make sense? If I have a problem with how I express myself, aren't I the worst judge for determining how well (or poorly) my communication is developing?
Barry,
The guys are giving it to you....and hopefully you are listening.
As for the last few notes from your wife....Haven't you been being told the exact same stuff by us for the last three months? You mention that you are listening and hearing better, but I disagree. In the situation you are in good listening and hearing will transcend into action....You are not acting and not changing. You are assuming and expecting change and improvement on her part.....and as the boys will tell you....There is no room in life for assumptions or expectations.
You use the word "improve" a lot in regards to your relationship with your wife....To me improve means to better something that already exists. The truth is that your old relationship with her is dead...Your marriage is dead...gone finished. This is something that at this point YOU should be pleased about truthfully. You should be wanting to create a new future and present, not improving a broken past.
Improve the things you control which is only you....By changing, your world changes and your perception becomes different. By changing your world, You change the world around you as peoples perception of your world changes.
My interpretation of her words is that she's done for now, she's working on herself and she's urging me to do the same. I honestly don't read it as "I'm done. Goodbye." I read it as "grow up, get your chit together and maybe we'll have a chance. Until you do though, I'm not interested."
I think that is what we have been saying too....
Do the work on yourself, FOR yourself...
And that is your best chance to,
not save, but to begin a new relationship with her in the future....
I get it. She's not on my team right now. I don't know how I come across to people and I'm trying my hardest to find that out and fix it. To me, it's like being given a maths problem, getting the answer wrong, asking for feedback and the teacher saying "you need to figure it out for yourself" without providing any guidance. I don't give my son the answer when he gets something wrong but I do ask him questions to help him find the answer himself. Does any of that make sense? If I have a problem with how I express myself, aren't I the worst judge for determining how well (or poorly) my communication is developing?
Wow...
You just summed up this entire thread, in one paragraph...
Look, you can focus on one word if you wish, yet I can tell you that everything that Eric, Lost and myself have been saying to you, plays a very large part in this...
Focusing on "communication" as being the key word, you probably will improve the communication in areas of your life. Yet it will be a constant effort, and it will always be at the forefront of your thoughts. What did I do last time, what was good, what was bad, etc...
If you can pinpoint your list of things, and work on those things separately, then you will see the communication improve vastly, without much extra effort involved. The reason for that, will be that it will just be a part of you, and you are just living it naturally instead of focusing on it..
Now, as you say that you do for your Son....
If you take the time to read back through this thread...
You will SEE the unanswered questions that YOU have been asked, to give YOU that same kind of road map....
How's that for a "communication" buzzkill ???
I wanted to go back and touch on this again...
Cause I feel as if this can be a good road-map for you..
I had a go at defining each quality. I did this relatively quickly but I did it when I was calm and relaxed and on my own rather than trying to force answers.
Think about it this way...
You already have all of your answers, you have just been asking the wrong questions....
What I see here, although they are a GOOD start, are more of a skillset than an ingrained quality...
Try chiseling down these things, and pinpoint where they fit into who you are at your core....
Reliable
- To me, someone who is reliable would be someone I can call upon to help me with things. They may not always be available but I know that when they aren’t, they have a genuine reason and they will endeavour to be available in the future.
This also ties into being loyal, faithful, and trustworthy. And since I noticed this three times on your list, what is it, that makes you focus so much on this quality ?
Is that something from the past ? Abandonment issues perhaps?
And to give you a little bit of a nudge here....
I would say that the quality in all of these, would be that you are an Honorable man, and a man of great integrity...
So for your list of qualities...
I would just say
Honorable
Good listener
- I feel a good listener is someone who makes eye contact, doesn’t look around the room and isn’t doing anything distracting such as fiddling with their fingers or playing with their phone. I feel that when someone is listening to you, you have a connection with them.
How have you GIVEN this in the past ??
How important is it for you to give, in order to receive this ??
Good communicator
- A good communicator to me is someone who is clear and concise, polite, uses the appropriate volume and tone of voice for the situation and most importantly, knows what they want to say.
Like I said above....are you able to give this ?
Are you clear and concise ? OR do you flounder around aimlessly without really making a decision ??
Are you able to remember details of every conversation ??
Are you a note taker ??
Try following this rule...
Listen without defending, and speak without offendingThis also ties into being a good listener...
What quality would you say that ties these together ??
Faithful
- Someone who is faithful, to me, is someone who doesn’t cheat on someone important to them: a spouse, a friend, a family member.
I covered this above, and I want you to see that this may have been thrown in with a touch of anger, and superiority because of your current situation....
I do know that this is important, yet HOW important was this to you before the bomb ?
Patient
- I feel someone who is patient is someone who can ride through a lot of nonsense and respond to a situation calmly, articulately, sensitively and fairly.
Again....what are you SHOWING in order to receive ???
Trustworthy
- Someone who deserves the trust of another person. They can give their word to someone, is believed and their actions support their words.
Are YOU trustworthy ???
Fair
- Someone who weighs up a situation and delivers an outcome that is beneficial to all parties while achieving specific goals.
Fair can mean a lot of things...
Life ISN'T fair Barry, never was, never will be.
Fairness is something that we can only give and hope to get back.
Loyal
- Someone who is loyal is someone who fights for and defends their friends and family and remains faithful to them.
See above
Calm
- I feel that someone who is calm is someone who does not allow themselves to be easily excited or aroused in a stressful situation and can exercise patience where required.
Calmness doesn't always mean passive...
You can be calm and still lead the way...
It also doesn't mean that there is no passion either.
Showing the cracks in your armor is sometimes a good thing. It is how you handle those situations that will make a difference in your life, and interactions.
You can be the calmest guy in the world and still get frazzled by things...
It is from that point forward that matters....
I know that this sounds crazy, yet when I say that I want to show the world certain things about myself, every day...
I don't have to elaborate about the finer points of things in order to acheive them...
I can say that I want to be Honorable, Loveable, Honest, Compassionate....
And every detail, is in those qualities...
No matter the situation....
Make more sense ????