Old one locked.
Action: staying home ("occupying space"), instead of yoga, to help and be present at d16's bday party.
L
Luke,
Spectators in life, "occupy space". But Dad's celebrate their kids' birthdays. Please do that with/for her.
And I think sandi(?) had a great idea about you inviting your d along with you for a shopping trip for YOU to update your wardrobe. My d's loved buying their dad clothes "if he promises to wear it!" And he does.
Luke, you have a good mind, a good heart and a healthy body.
That is a winning combination. Enjoy
Hola MLC,
The occupy space thing was the (typically mild, which is one of their favorite words) Swedish way of saying "assert yourself!". They are, generally speaking, not so emotionally expansive here...
Yes, I'll take up sandi's idea of shopping for Dad. Lord knows, I could use it!
Thanks for your kind words. I have much and many to be grateful for.
Action - I expected and got breakfast made for me today, after the girls said no thanks to my offer of whole grain waffles (yum). Partook (what a wonderful, old fashioned, word) in the breakfast conversation, occupying verbal space, so to speak. As they say at EE, "I am XX and I am here".
Long run today. Already 50F, with an occasional merry breeze stretching the flag.
Have a good Sunday -
L
W and d16 were outside planting yesterday, and we had lunch in the 55F sunshine, amazing for an Alaskan latitude in early March. I learned that beans are being sown, that d16 is thinking of working for a month this summer at a local plant nursery again, and that she is thinking of climbing Sweden's highest mountain this summer. Both the working and climbing probably originate from my W.
Luke
Luke,
loved the poem, very nicely done.
i would suggest making the shopping trip grand. go big. make it a day trip, take a train if possible. breakfast, shop, dinner, movie. go to stores in an area your daughter normally would not go.
dont go to the local stores she knows so well. you can do that another time. buy for her, let her pick for you. have some pictures taken of the two of you.
make it a shopping trip she wont soon forget.
and do not, under any circumstances, take w with you.
this is your gift, your idea. make the day last as long as possible.
Both the working and climbing probably originate from my W.
Really? When I read this, I though I saw some of dad too.
Okay, so how can you use this information to get a new avenue of shared interest with your D? Maybe she can teach you a few things. Could be a new switch, since you said your role is mostly in the form of a teacher.
Hola Ken, sandi, MLC,
Thanks for the suggestions. Yes, we will go to Stockholm and make a day of it, with a restaurant meal and cafe break. If W proposes to come along, I'll say no thanks.
W had idea of climbing Sweden's highest a few years ago, when s20 had finished junior high. He and two friends and I were one group, and got to the first, lower, peak (there is a saddle between it and the true top), while d12, who walked with W, and pooped out earlier, didn't get as far. This will thus be a second attempt. It'll be interesting to see whether I, the usual beast of burden, am invited, as the best climbing plan involves camping in the bowl beneath the top, and so someone would need to carry the tent etc. Of course the women could do this too, but it is generally my role. We'll see.
Adventure is something I like, mind you, I arranged a surprise trip to bike in Iceland with W when we were courting, and we hiked and camped a good deal.
I don't know, but suspect, that the work again this summer plan originated from my W. If so, I wish she had discussed it with me, or had at least let me know. I think the idea is good, but feel like I am being kept out of the loop a bit.
I don't want this to be an arms race (i.e. the trip d16 gets from me is "better" than that from my W) or a beat you to the punch thing (W books a trip for she and d16 first, thus preempting my doing so), but am not sure how to handle it.
d16 is coming home early all week - yay - perhaps we'll go to a south facing slope near here known for early flowers.
Luke
luke,
i got into an "arms race" with my x over my daughter and what i did for my daughter. (i dont know if x ever noticed, doesnt matter)
and it was the best thing that ever happened.
i recognized that in that type of war, my daughter is the winner. she gets more from both of us. i used it as a motivator.
i would suggest using the time between now and the shopping trip to listen to what your daughter's interests are, prod if needed, and come up with an idea for a trip/outing based on what your daughter has been sharing, and then use the shopping trip to discuss that trip with your daughter. "i've noticed you're excited about climbing that mountain, what do you feel about climbing this other one with me as practice?"
make it in the near future, and then, while planning and executing that trip, listen for the what could be the next. let one trip lead you into the next.
enjoy it, get excited about it, get d excited about it.
and it doesnt have to be grand, it just has to be about you and your daughter, doing what interests her.
and dont even consider what w thinks.
See? I knew she had some of her old dad's adventure in her blood!
I see your point about the "race", so guess you'll have to be clever and think of new things.
Action - took an hour long walk with d16 today. Broached the shopping trip, but d16 said she didn't really need clothes and would be spoiled. I'll need to soften her up somehow...
Luke
Hej - the shopping trip with d16 is not clear now - she and I went for a walk yesterday, and I asked when we should go. She said it wasn't necessary, as she has enough clothes already, it would spoil her... I said that I could use some clothes too (shirts please!) but she thought I have enough already... so I not sure how to repackage this and make it happen. I think I have one more chance to sell the idea. Any thoughts? Is a worst case backup solution just to say I would like to do something fun with her and what does she suggest?
Tx - Luke
Have you noticed that your daughter talks to you EXACTLY the same way your W does? You're letting her control the situation. Timing is everything when you're talking to her.
If she says that she doesn't want to be spoiled, look at her straight in the eye and tell her that you're her dad and it's your job to spoil her. When she tells you that you have enough clothes (which is weird coming from your daughter), tell her that you're going for something new and that's that.
Stop her from controlling you.
Yeah, whoever heard of a teenage girl not wanting more clothes?
What about shopping for her gear for the mountain climbing?
Have you noticed that your daughter talks to you EXACTLY the same way your W does? You're letting her control the situation. Timing is everything when you're talking to her.
If she says that she doesn't want to be spoiled, look at her straight in the eye and tell her that you're her dad and it's your job to spoil her. When she tells you that you have enough clothes (which is weird coming from your daughter), tell her that you're going for something new and that's that.
Stop her from controlling you.
.
..Luke, who the hell decides if YOU have enough clothes, You or your teen daughter...or your w...???
Sweetie, this is a pattern here, which YOU must change.
The only tiny question I have, (& it is only a tiny one)
is whether your d has some vague financial fears about the future, going on...I mean, what kid her age would say no to shopping for herself AND you? Does she think you guys are going broke,
or that wife will, soon...???
I believe your d knows a divorce looms on the horizon, but maybe that's just me.
Tell her YOU NEED a NEW 'X' or "Y' and you wanted
updating on the wardrobe, which you trust her judgment about. You know this b/c you travel to the USA a lot in professional circles....Be lighthearted but clear...if she insists on telling you what YOU need,
insist back. and if, by chance, she IS worried that HER needs won't be met later on, financially,
(or emotionally for that matter)
and this request of yours somehow triggered it, DIG INTO THAT, and
be reassuring to her that her needs will always be a priority in your mind. That way, the conversation can for sure end on a positive note.
Make sense? End each conversation with a reassuring comment, even if firmly delivered.
Kids need/want strong dads, Luke. You will never be confused with being a bully so don't even let that fear enter your mind. It's not in you to bully. And that's fine.
Just show the strengths we know you have, more, to your family.
THEY NEED IT FROM YOU. They always have.
Thanks, folks, for pointing out who decides here. And must lead. As a friend pointed out, it is important for d16 to see that I do not back down from my gift. And we can always go window shopping...
By way of explanation as to why a 16 year old would say no to a free shopping offer (and the following come from W rubbing off on d16): frugality and Calvinist morality and recycling is good. Oh, and d16 boycotts certain brands because of ethical reasons.
I don't think d16 has financial fears, but do think she senses a looming D. Something started to slip out of her the other day, but then she clammed up, even though I asked, though just once.
I understand the need to reassure. I am obligated by law to pay for her until she is 21, and will pay (knock on wood) for her education (much cheaper or even free tuition here in Europe).
Luke
"By way of explanation as to why a 16 year old would say no to a free shopping offer (and the following come from W rubbing off on d16):"
Mindreading. You don't "know" why she said that.
"frugality and Calvinist morality"
Nothing wrong with that.
"and recycling is good."
It is.
"Oh, and d16 boycotts certain brands because of ethical reasons."
Which is also a noble thought. But these aren't the "cause" of why she simply didn't want to go shopping with you. It could very well be that she felt uncomfortable shopping with you alone because you had never done that before. Rather than blaming external influences, it could just be stemming from you.
Regardless of the reason why she says or does what she does, stop the blame and start doing things to change that attitude that she has of you.
Bond, I try not to be a blamer - my W does this a lot, and I disagree with it.
I find it hard to find the words/argument to persuade/sell her to go, and have come up with something like:
o I've thought a bit more about the shopping present
o yes, you are right, I don't normally like to go clothes shopping, but do enjoy finally getting and wearing nice clothing, also for her, and really would appreciate her help in finding a nice shirt or two for me
o we could also just window shop, and if there is something she likes, well, I do get to treat you every now and then
o I have no good counterargument to her not wanting to go or be spoiled, except that I'd like to have fun and spend time with her and thought she would enjoy this
o can I just order her to come with me "you must come with me, I insist"? Why should she?
I think there is just one chance left to make this sale and make the outing happen, but the psychology of it escapes me - thx -
Luke
I'd like to have fun and spend time with her and thought she would enjoy this
I think this would be a winner!
I'd like to have fun and spend time with her and thought she would enjoy this
I think this would be a winner!
Agreed^^^...
You can inform her that you
do really need HER advice about some clothing for you..and let a spontaneous gift happen for her, if it's organic & natural feeling. Certainly offer it at some point but without pressure...she may have sincere objections but if that's the case, geez, ask her about a charity she'd like you to donate to, in her name...?? I mean, I'm spitballing here...
But if the initial offer to shop or hang out really falls flat, what about saying
"well D, if you [refuse] to shop with me or for me, then what do YOU suggest WE do
together for fun?"
NOT "if" or "will she" . The assumption must be that no question exists that you have the right to spend time with your daughter. You do, Luke. Why wouldn't she want to? BTW, my h has been working HARD on the R's he has with our d's. As you may recall, they both felt "abandoned" by h when he went off to Alaska.
He invited the older one (when she was at your d's age) to monthly lunches...he did not arrange it that way, but it happened several times before I saw some improvement and thawing in their R. But it did thaw.
I guess I can theoretically imagine her saying "no!" But is that realistic?? Even my d's, who had a reason for feeling left behind or 'ignored for 2 years" as my youngest said, would not have given him an outright refusal. Frankly it would be rude.
I mean, will she actually "refuse" to do anything with you? Since when?
If it really seems like it's an outright refusal , here are some random ways of pursuing time with her...
- perhaps you can directly ask her IF that is what is happening and if so, why.
AND OR
"d, it feels as if you are
refusing to spend time with me and that hurts. I love you very much but it feels as if we've been ships passing in the day, not interacting nearly as much as I'd like...so what will it be??"
OR
"We have a lot of catching up to do" --
AND OR
"you're always going to be my d" and "you're always going to be endless fascinating to me so get used to it"
"so please,
humor me, let's shop/visit a museum/go to a concert, X, Y, Z"....
Also, I think if you can make sure you compliment your d with authentic, specific comments that are positive about her. Not so much generic "you're great"
but more like "you're so 'artistic/smart/poetic/funny/beautiful" etc...and how much you enjoy spending time with her,
that she may come to believe even more that you are in the bleachers as her number one fan. (Specificity = believability)
When my dad was terminally ill, we discussed the afterlife and missing him/me.
He mentioned something about how he'd "always be cheering [me] on, from the bleachers" and that he was my "number 1 fan".
I never forgot that...
Dear sandi, MLC, SD, et al,
Thank you for your posts.
I've put together a hopefully coherent distillation: "dear d16, I've been thinking more about the shopping trip present. The idea was to have fun and spend time with you, and I thought that shopping together could be something enjoyable. I do have the right to spoil you a bit, every now and then, you know
.
I know going to XX is not your favorite thing, so how about we go to YY instead, or do something else that you like. If you don't want to do something together, I'd like to know why, as our R is very important to me, as is your happiness, and I will do whatever I can to improve it.
Anyway, let's spend some time together, somewhere, soon, just you and me. Let me know what you'd like.
Love, Dad - "
Apropos specific compliments: I complimented her on her "buttery" instrument tone (she was practicing last night), which her music eduction is really helping with. She still hasn't got a new instrument (she could use a better instrument), even though that was a gift nearly a year ago.
She did mention being able to use a new lighter laptop for school, who will install the software she needs. She says there is no hurry... Unbeknownst to her I already have exactly what she wants, hidden here, intended as a gift in the fall or Christmas, but now slated for Easter.
Would there be any point in emailing her the above? Perhaps an evening walk, if I can motivate her, would be a better opportunity to talk?
The secretly planted tulips are coming up -
Luke
GM - thanks - I thought so - good point (I am smiling at my thick skull) about not needing to email one's kid! And yes, I'll only bring up the second part if needed. Luke
Action: just talked to d16 re shopping, who said "of course we can do something together, go to XX, maybe a museum or something and even do some shopping". I said that I knew she liked to be at home too, and relax, and to please let me know when was good for her.
So all is good for the moment on d16 front.
Action: am booking time with IC regarding finding my passion, as a continuation of your posts, Mr. Bond and Brahmin (your recommendation of the Frankl book was great).
Thx - Luke
One recommendation I would have is for YOU to set the date and time. I notice you don't follow through or don't go far enough in your interactions. Set the time and place and go for it. Don't analyze so much. You have to start learning to run on just your impulse rather than always having a "reason" or a plan.
Do something JUST BECAUSE.
One recommendation I would have is for YOU to set the date and time. I notice you don't follow through or don't go far enough in your interactions.
I noticed this^^ as well. I assume you fear rejection, which stops you from nailing down the time. But notice where you stop yourself and try to push thru that. Otherwise you're doing a ton of mind reading/analysis and assuming negatives, & Not enjoying your life. And not having a good R with your d.
You're in charge of changing that and I"m SO glad she reacted as we all hoped. She loves you Luke. Do you get that? It's a good thing and it's good to savor it. I was a career woman who was shocked/amazed/traumatized/delighted, by motherhood.
Set the time and place and go for it. Don't analyze so much. You have to start learning to run on just your impulse rather than always having a "reason" or a plan.
Do something JUST BECAUSE.
Luke, I'm glad you grasp how odd an email would be to your own d...(imo, ever. B/c when she lives elsewhere, you pick up a phone. The only time I'd email my own children is if I were sending them an article/link or some written info.
But never would I "talk meaningfully " to them by email, let alone while living under the same roof. Just saying, you need to really digest that, okay?
Where are you sleeping these days? Care to discuss?
Hola MLC - yes, parenthood and kids have been one of the best things in my life. I was dreading the conversation, anticipating difficulties and rejection and screwing up somehow (hence the insane email idea) but then just took the plunge tonight, and am glad I did.
I sleep up in my son's room.
Bond is right about setting or at least proposing times and dates. I got in touch with the other alumni from my school here in Sweden who also interview kids interested in going there, and got a quick positive response. But then nothing further happened and I realize I just have to throw out a time/date and see what the others say.
Bond - I am working on the passion thing - thanks for pushing me on that. It'd be good to have a reason to be alive, something beyond the kids.
Luke
Hola MLC
I sleep up in my son's room.
Upstairs?
Bond is right about setting or at least proposing times and dates. I got in touch with the other alumni from my school here in Sweden who also interview kids interested in going there, and got a quick positive response. But then nothing further happened and I realize I just have to throw out a time/date and see what the others say.
Bond - I am working on the passion thing - thanks for pushing me on that. It'd be good to have a reason to be alive, something beyond the kids.
Luke
Luke, you sent a message to the alumni and they responded positively. Um, it's your turn to act now, not theirs. Do you see why?
It's b/c they "accepted the invitation" but then you expected them to set the time and date? That's not how it works.
YOU do that. I suggest you propose two dates, invite input about which is better for the majority, but do NOT expect perfect attendance b/c it'd be very difficult to arrange that.
Get some or most of them to go, and be satisfied with that. After it goes well, other events will take place.
You're probably going to have to be in charge of arrangements for the first few meetings/events. That'll be good for you.
Luke, are you of the belief that your children are the "only" reason you have, "to be alive"? Why is that?
What message did you get from your childhood or marriage that suggested your worth was based only on meeting other's needs?
If there were a lifeboat with limited seating, a la "EE", what would you say in order to justify a seat for you?
Tell us why you belong in the lifeboat Luke. Why should YOU be allowed to live?
(HINT: the answer does not involve your children...) Dig deep...
(((( ))))
MLC - I sleep upstairs, in my son's room, next to the central master bedroom.
I don't understand your question: "What message did you get from your childhood or marriage that suggested your worth was based only on meeting other's needs? "
Why be alive? A couple of reasons, these being a mix of (lousy reason) selfishly wanting to enjoy the world, then more nobly - but not enough is happening - of doing something good for the world (and this may not include people directly, as in being a teacher or a doctor or caring for people's spirit, but could be something in nature or art or science instead). At the bottom though, I am not worth more than any other person - .
I never did find a good answer for why I should be allowed to live, which is frustrating.
Frankl talks about boredom, here:
"Unlike an animal, man is no longer told by drives and instincts what he must do. And in contrast to man in former times, he is no longer told by traditions and values what he should do. Now, knowing neither what he must do nor what he should do, he sometimes does not even know what he basically wishes to do. Instead, he wishes to do what other people do... or he does what other people wish him to do...
In this situation when people "loose ground" the old liberal social philosophies also fail. The bitter truth, says Frankl (UCM, p. 21), is that (italics by Frankl)
For too long we have been dreaming a dream from which we are now waking up: the dream that if we just improve the socioeconomic situation of people, everything will be okay, people will become happy. The truth is that as the struggle for survival has subsided, the question has emerged: survival for what? Ever more people today have the means to live, but no meaning to live for.
In another book (PAE, p.122) Frankl notes:
What threatens contemporary man is the alleged meaningfulness of his life, or, as I call it, the existential vacuum within him. And when does this vacuum open up, when does this so often latent vacuum become manifest? In the state of boredom.
Boredom is the main symptom of this illness. To see if society is sick one has just to observe how deeply boredom – in its many forms and manifestations – overflows peoplesí lives. Sometimes it becomes unbearable, and then its companions: addiction, depression and aggression, become the threat not only to the individual but also to society as a whole."
Anyway, that is a long way of saying that bored hedonism is not a good way to live, that I sometimes recognize it in myself, and that I'd like to change it, especially for the kids' sakes.
Luke
I really like how you've made a point to write out a specific action. I hope you will continue forward with these action steps. (It's rather difficult to make a step without moving, isn't it?)
"I was dreading the conversation, anticipating difficulties and rejection and screwing up somehow (hence the insane email idea) but then just took the plunge tonight, and am glad I did. "
apply this lesson to everything, including interaction with your w. the dread, the anticipated difficulties are in your head. of course it will not always be pleasant, but it wont be as bad as you think it will be.
Your description of why you think you're doing the way you're doing it is WAYYYY too analytical. I think what you need to do is to start doing things more on impulse and "feeling" rather than being so logical. Sometimes you sound like Mr. Spock when you're describing your emotions when it shouldn't be that thoughtful.
MLC - I sleep upstairs, in my son's room, next to the central master bedroom.
I don't understand your question: "What message did you get from your childhood or marriage that suggested your worth was based only on meeting other's needs? "
Because the only reason you gave for being alive was your children...being around them and or, providing for them. There have to be other reasons Luke, or you're not living WELL. That was the point of the lifeboat exercises. To stop living FOR OTHERS and live for YOU b/c you are worthy of happiness. Not just for others...
Why be alive? A couple of reasons, these being a mix of (lousy reason) selfishly wanting to enjoy the world,
OMG!! WHY IS "WANTING TO ENJOY THE WORLD" CONSIDERED "SELFISH"???
I had to capitalize that ^^ b/c it's such a basic misunderstanding of why we are here on earth. Such an underlying issue for you in your relationships and how you interact with your family, it's telling but it must be radically adjusted soon.
I'm a believer in God so I say this to you with that in mind. God brought me here, and I feel blessed. It was not with the purpose of suffering alone that I am here.
I have free will and I am free to love, to be loved, & to live life to the fullest. In fact I think that's what God wants for us.
Yes I love others and serve them and it gives me joy.
But I no longer believe all my spare time must be devoted to others to "Deserve" a seat in the lifeboat.
I'd never have done theater or comedy if I felt compelled, as I once did, to use all my spare time for volunteer work. Thank God I went to the EE workshop.
That lifeboat exercise was to demonstrate that WE deserve to be here, to LIVE. Serving others cannot be our only function. That suggests you are not enough, alone, to deserve being here. But you are. You're a child of God just like the rest of us.
then more nobly - but not enough is happening - of doing something good for the world (and this may not include people directly, as in being a teacher or a doctor or caring for people's spirit, but could be something in nature or art or science instead). At the bottom though, I am not worth more than any other person - .
WOW....So much to say, so little time. I will stay basic...
1) who said you had to be worth MORE than others, to live??
2) and YES YOU ARE worth more anyhow, to your family and friends and those at your job,
AND b/c I have clients in jail for doing some very terrible things. They live!
It's obvious and fair to say you offer more to the world than they do.
But frankly, it's not a contest.
My concern is the message you continue to transmit:
You say "I offer nothing more than anyone else so I can just sit here...eating only enough to live, and 'occupying space' b/c that has worked SO WELL FOR ME AND MY FAMILY and that is how I'll approach life...
and my kids have learned that they too, are not anything special b/c heck, I AM NOT ANYTHING SPECIAL...so I'll teach that to my kids by example.
Also I will show my wife that she can do better b/c I am no better than anyone else she could choose..."
I never did find a good answer for why I should be allowed to live, which is frustrating.
IMO, ^^This is a spiritual problem, & a psychological, philosophical one.
I wish you could see how it permeates your relationships. Honestly if my h said he was not worth more than anyone else around, I'd be turned OFF.
It's not arrogant for him to see and feel his worth. It's attractive confidence.
Frankl talks about boredom, here:
"Unlike an animal, man is no longer told by drives and instincts what he must do. And in contrast to man in former times, he is no longer told by traditions and values what he should do. Now, knowing neither what he must do nor what he should do, he sometimes does not even know what he basically wishes to do. Instead, he wishes to do what other people do... or he does what other people wish him to do...
isn't that^^, you?
In this situation when people "loose ground" the old liberal social philosophies also fail. The bitter truth, says Frankl (UCM, p. 21), is that (italics by Frankl)
For too long we have been dreaming a dream from which we are now waking up: the dream that if we just improve the socioeconomic situation of people, everything will be okay, people will become happy. The truth is that as the struggle for survival has subsided, the question has emerged: survival for what? Ever more people today have the means to live, but no meaning to live for.
We now have the "leisure time" For more artistic AND OR altruistic endeavors. Hence the reality that some cultures contributed more than others, b/c some cultures are busy trying to stay alive while others have their basic physical needs met.
I Thank God for having more time for other pursuits. THIS IS NOT A "PROBLEM" for most people. Don't create one. You love music and travel. Stop finding fault in that. Find out what else you love.
In another book (PAE, p.122) Frankl notes:
What threatens contemporary man is the alleged meaningfulness of his life, or, as I call it, the existential vacuum within him. And when does this vacuum open up, when does this so often latent vacuum become manifest? In the state of boredom.
Hence the need to avoid existentialism! It's depressing and fruitless. Stop being stuck and the first step would be to read books on HOW TO BE HAPPIER- and
Not "why should I live? I'm nothing special, so I'll project that to my world..."
Boredom is the main symptom of this illness. To see if society is sick one has just to observe how deeply boredom – in its many forms and manifestations – overflows peoplesí lives. Sometimes it becomes unbearable, and then its companions: addiction, depression and aggression, become the threat not only to the individual but also to society as a whole."
Anyway, that is a long way of saying that bored hedonism is not a good way to live, that I sometimes recognize it in myself, and that I'd like to change it, especially for the kids' sakes.
Luke
When did YOU show your children "hedonistic" pursuits of any kind? I can imagine your melancholy approach is a downer to them, but are you actually filled with ennui and purposelessness,
OR are you simply depressed?
I mean, you have lived in a loveless marriage for so many years and you have been stuck for so long, most people would identify your behaviors as those of a depressed man. Not catatonic, but depressive.
Have you discussed this^^ with your IC? I recommend it. And please read some books that are not so nihilistic.
You remind me of myself in my sophomore year of college (not to be insulting) b/c that was my "be SERIOUS" mode and to be "serious" meant of course, to be sad.
Only superficial people were HAPPY...or so I foolishly, masochistically believed. I wallowed in my melancholy b/c I thought it proved my depth. I was wrong.
Hola MLC, Bond, Ken, sandi,
apropos hedonism: no, I am not popping chilled grapes into my mouth that my slaves have just picked...
It is more at the French passe-temps idea, how do you fill the void and the time? (answer: by loving, in all its manifestations?) Not helping this is my German background, which has a certain Hans Beinholtz character to it...
I would like to show my kids a positive way of living, with passion, and interest, and kindness, and intelligence, and truth, and strength, and beauty, and ethics, and gentleness, and poetry, and books, and gardens, and creativity, and environmentalism, and righteous anger, etc etc. Does the passion for something come out of our actively assigning it to the something or does it arise more spontaneously? That is, do we decide or is it decided for us?
Action: helped French friend set up a weight lifting machine last night, then hung out, playing music, talking and drinking wine.
Action tonight: there is an interesting sounding lecture on Sicily, in a nearby town, so I'll go there instead of yoga.
Luke
Ken - yes, the pattern of problems being more in my head than in the world is a repeating theme - thanks for pointing this out - L
" Not helping this is my German background, which has a certain Hans Beinholtz character to it..."
This is just another excuse you keep coming up with. Bottom line is that it doesn't matter what your heritage, background or genetic makeup is. How you choose to live your life is up to YOU. It is YOUR CHOICE.
"I would like to show my kids a positive way of living, with passion, and interest, and kindness, and intelligence, and truth, and strength, and beauty, and ethics, and gentleness, and poetry, and books, and gardens, and creativity, and environmentalism, and righteous anger, etc etc."
While those are fine, is there anything a little more "masculine" you could show them? I mean, putting together a garden is fine, but didn't you say your W was the one who basically did more of the home construction? THAT is masculine.
"Does the passion for something come out of our actively assigning it to the something or does it arise more spontaneously? That is, do we decide or is it decided for us?"
You're still way over-thinking this. Passion is the drive to do something that you like to do just for the sake of doing it. Evidently gardening is a passion of yours and that's fine. But you have to translate that to all aspects of your life and not let fear stop you.
Start a project that you and your children and do together. Did you ever have them join anything like scouts or sports (team sports and not individual sports like swimming)? Do that with them. Something as simple as kicking a soccer ball together or throwing a frisbee will be fun. My kids and I enjoy playing video games together and going outside just to play tag or tossing a ball around. Your gestures dont' need to be grand ones. Start of small.
Luke
all this fear and anxiety are preventing you from doing anything. the analyzing, the concocting of scenarios, the intricate planning, the endless what-ifs, are all methods of procrastination, they're all designed to keep you from acting on your fears. you over-analyze until the opportunity has expired and then just accept the end results.
ask yourself how often you've created these scenarios of failure, but worked through it anyway only to discover it was nothing like you imagined it would be.
analyzing is helpful to determine what you want, but i believe you know exactly what you want from the beginning.
instead, practice immediate action, and show yourself the outcome will be fine. and by continued practice you'll be able to manage your fear.
You have mentioned your German background several times, but I fail to see what that has to do with anything.
I agree with what 25mlc said in her post yesterday. To me, it sounds like a spiritual problem. I can't imagine how empty life would be without a faith-based relationship with God. I personally believe man has a spiritual soul and needs that connection with God, in order for his life to have purpose and passion. That is what separates us from the animals.
I agree with what 25mlc said in her post yesterday. To me, it sounds like a spiritual problem. I can't imagine how empty life would be without a faith-based relationship with God. I personally believe man has a spiritual soul and needs that connection with God, in order for his life to have purpose and passion. That is what separates us from the animals.
Thats one of the reasons why most of us are having the problems we are having
I totally agree with this affirmation.
As I keep repeating, there are no mistakes only spiritual opportunities for growth...
God as we underestand him.... It doesnt have to be in a religious way, but in a spiritual way to believe that something greater than ourselves is out in the universe....
I made the "Spiritual problem" statement a bit generically, b/c I know it can push buttons for people with various views & fears about religion, or what was intended when I made the comment.
But to me, anyone who cannot justify their LIVING on the planet, has a profoundly fundamental problem within, & that goes far beyond relationship issues,
yet it could also cause many of those^^ R issues.
Luke, there are many reasons you seem stuck to me. But the superficial ones are just that; superficial. Luke, what's up with your IC?
I'd pay out of pocket if you find someone good, if the problem is related to some insurance issue.
You need to work on this b/c it's the big obstacle to most of your progress.
You can make those behavioral changes and if you watch those TED Videos, you'll see that they can change us, within, as well. (Did you watch them? The Shawn Achor re; Positive psychology, and Amy Cuddy's talk, are not very long and they are on point here).
In your case, Luke, I wouldn't suggest only changing behaviors -- b/c you are in your head so much, I think you need some "mental clarity" in there too. And that's why I harp so much on digging deeper.
Make sense? And fwiw, this whole DB ordeal was painful as he11, but it brought out a spiritual side to me that I had ignored since my early 20s. It was deeply renewing for me. A book called "The Gift of Change" by Marianne Williamson had some useful parts to it.
For some, she is too "new agey" but for me, parts of that book, and the premise of it, really resonated. Lose the fear, and move forward with optimism. Luke your life could improve so much, so soon, I wish you could see that.
You need not find a specific church for this fellowship, (but it sure helps) and you can seek out fellowship in other places.
But for me, fellowship is another word for being with people with whom i have a deeper bond than mere acquaintances.
Like the other participants at the workshop, THAT was fellowship. You need that a lot more in your life Luke.
You once told me that our conversation was unlike any other you had had, in decades. Luke, I kid you not, I have those at least weekly.
I'm positive you would love having more of those, and for that reason, I urge you to JOIN something, this month. A class, a club, something...Pretty much anything that allows for connection and genuine communication...but JOIN with others...soon!
((((( )))))
Action: asked d16 out to see Budapest Grand Hotel and she accepted. Am having lunch with an American living here in town next Friday. Am having dinner with fellow alumna in Stockholm that same Friday evening. Have registered for 4 Meetup groups, all of which sound interesting. Talked to my sister yesterday, who has been very kind.
Probably going to work in Budapest for a week in two weeks, visiting my German relatives before that, including my favorite cousin, with whom I had a falling out a few years ago. Will probably be in the States all of May.
I have a work interview scheduled for Monday, for a job in NYC, to where I can't really imagine moving just now, but it is good to stay in practice and see what is out there.
Watched both YouTube videos you recommended, MLC, and have been reading From Shy to Social, which has good ideas.
Yes, fellowship would be wonderful. This may possibly be slowly coming to be with my French friend. I just need to take that step...
Thanks, all -
Luke
Action - walked to cinema and saw Grand Budapest Hotel with d16, a good movie. Her favorite superhero is Wolverine. Brought up going to Stockholm, which now looks to happen over Easter vacation or possibly next weekend. I got invited by two different people to dinner last night, but was already booked with d16.
W had a dinner party with 2 girlfriends last night, fwiw, so going to movie with d16 fit perfectly.
Hard running on schedule for today.
Luke
Action - I joined a political party whose platform I agree with. We are getting to be enough people in the province here to form a working group, which I have volunteered to join. I found the party via Meetup.
Luke
Alright, so now you know that if you're there with your D, you can take her to the new XMen movie opening this summer.
What type of ACTION have you been doing in terms of your W?
All quiet on the W front, who has been civil recently (and latches the windows properly). The focus is more on GAL for me just now. I have invited the dance teacher, who needs to lose weight, for a walk and dinner tomorrow. He knows things about living well that I can learn from.
The XMen movie sounds good - thanks - Luke
Sounds like you are GAL Luke, and that is great news.
Keep up the good (hard) work, b/c it is SO worth it.
((( )))
while having these conversations with D16, start listening to find an activity you can do with her that can be recurring. movies and shopping and dinners are great, now find what can you "your thing" that the two of you do consistently.
dont let up, dont get complacent.
Ok but what have you learned to interact positively with your W? I mean she still lives with you so the interactions you have together could grow into positive ones. Not necessarily for you to get a good M, but so you can actually grow in that area.
d16 will be home early this afternoon and hopefully hang out a bit with me. The little outing to an early flowering south facing hillside that we had discussed is probably on hold given the unfriendly weather outside (typical Sweden is March stuck in the 40s and overcast, a windy, shifting, April, and a beautiful May).
Yes, complacency is a danger...
d16 has a new instrument home to test (she needs to upgrade what she plays on), so I'll certainly have some thoughts for her on that. She and W had her parent-teacher-student interaction last night, about which I haven't heard much yet, so I'll hopefully get the lowdown today.
Interaction with W is still an upstairs-downstairs/oil-water thing just now - we don't mix much - I mostly see her at dinner, after which she goes back upstairs and I stay down, in my office, doing a mixture of work and play. I am not sure how to develop it beyond being friendly and interested.
Luke
It was a generally good day yesterday:
o d16 came home early and played her loaner instrument to test it. Though they say that the master makes the instrument, in this case at least some of the instrument seemed to rub off on d16 for a bit. It sounded very nice sometimes, giving me ample opportunity for honest compliments. Hopefully she will decide to keep this one, as this (her middle school graduation) present is nearly a year old.
o I had a nice talk with yoga teacher last night, who ended up inviting me and the family to his house, whenever we liked: "just show up - don't bother calling, as my cell phone is wherever it is - ". He likes to bike, rock climb, kayak in the midnight sun, take a sauna, yoga, etc, a spontaneous and active guy.
o dinner with the dance teacher didn't work out, but the alumni dinner tomorrow is on track, at a great sounding restaurant in Stockholm (reindeer with wild mushroom and lingon!)
o W was a bit sour last night, not even softened by my minestrone, but it turns out she had lots of homework that had to be graded for today. She was fine this morning, when she took the car to work.
Luke
What instrument is your D playing?
How can you increase the positive interactions with your W?
Bond,
Gosh I don't want to get into a "thing" here, ( & usually you and I agree)
but can you say why you want Luke to work on his r with his w so much?
Is it b/c in general/the future, he needs to be less weak around her (or others) and you want that to change,
or b/c you think his M can be salvaged?
From where I sit, I THINK, all I care about now is helping Luke with his r with his D and in his self esteem, In general, so that he can be a happier man.
I know it's no small feat, and Luke, there are beliefs about yourself I still find surprising. Or things you find so hard, that baffle me. But I'm not you and I get that.
How do you feel about all this?
Violin. Her high school has a music specialty program and she is outgrowing her old one.
Yes, it would be great to improve, if it can be, the R with my W, who doesn't seem to really give a toss anymore.
MLC - what are these beliefs about myself and the things I find hard that baffle you? I sometimes feel like I lack a reference to normality and health.
I feel uncertain about how to interact with the yoga teacher - unsure of myself and my actions vis a vis him - it is nice to be invited though.
I told W I have to go to Budapest to work for a week (in a week) and will be stopping by Germany on the way. She didn't seem to mind and said we could order (my Christmas gift) some fancy German plates since I was going. Her not caring whether I was here or there, not wanting or needing anything from 'down south', and these plates, which symbolize having my own household, with my own things, to me, somehow made me quite sad, unexpected. I am up at 4 am as a result.
Having at least a bit of warmth and caring in our R would be welcome.
Yes, d16 is most important. She said I looked "bleak" last night. Hmm.
Luke
"but can you say why you want Luke to work on his r with his w so much?"
Sure. For a number of reasons.
First of all, I'm not saying that he should have a relationship with his W to save the marriage. That is not the intention here. With that being said, I think he could try having "some" kind of relationship with her.
1) She will always be the mother of his kids. If they break up and there is no positive communication between the two of them, it's going to be hard on the kids. Especially with his daughter. Later when she or his son gets married and wants to introduce their spouses to the family, it would help if there was no tension. You don't want the kids to choose sides.
2) They are still living together under the same roof. Why not try to improve relations between them? I mean he has nothing to lose.
3) To help LL with his personal growth. Right now he has hit an impasse and not moving forward with standing up for himself. He seems to always come to a certain point in his growth (with his W which I feel will spill over into his relationships to women in general) and then stop. He can keep moving forward. Right now it seems like he's just avoiding her out of fear. Time to get rid of that fear.
4) Based on his post just before this one, it's obvious he's feeling lonely. We all would. Why not try and communicate positively with the woman he's living with? GAL is fine and great, but he's been living together alone for so long that he needs/wants/yearns for a connection.
The good part of all this is that he's actually beginning to FEEL lonely rather than accepting things as they stand. Luke, you can do something about it learn how to truly DB. Do what works, don't do what doesn't, and don't give up on yourself.
I agree with everything you wrote above, Bond.
re 3) fear is part of it, but also not having ideas what to do differently.
Just had a small positive interaction with W regarding d16's violin.
Yeah, feeling lonely is a big thing in my life.
I meet an interesting sounding urban planner for lunch today, and then fellow student applicant interviewers for dinner. I'm sure these will be fine. Its always good to know more people.
How do you make the change from acquaintance to friend to real friend? Is it taking a plunge? Or carefully bleeding out chosen personal details? My analytical head wants to put a structure on this.
Luke
How do you make the change from acquaintance to friend to real friend?
I copied and pasted this question in google. You can find anything on the Internet, Luke. Why don't you look this stuff up instead of accepting the excuse of not knowing what to do?
"His wife holds contempt for whatever reason and a lot is because they are under the same roof. "
Personally I don't think so. He was having problems with relationships in general and his W was pushing him to challenge her. But regardless of what she does, usually LL starts progressing and then stops at a certain point. I certainly don't think he should put up with any abuse by her, but I also feel that he's got to learn to stand up for himself.
And besides, they're not planning to get D'd anytime soon, so why not try improving communication with her? Just a thought.
Yes, I feel like I come to a point in relationships where I am not sure how to continue. With my French guy friend, for example, I would like to reveal a safe personal detail, gauging the reaction, but am not sure what this secret could be. With (another!) French guy friend I took the plunge and told him about my M and he opened up and told me about his (similar to mine). I'd like to identify a spectrum of safe to less safe to completely revealing secrets or intimate knowledge, and start revealing it, moving toward fellowship and deeper friendships.
Action: had lunch with an urban planner, who had worked in New England (where I am from), and then dinner with an MIT guy, an interesting person that I hope to see again.
Luke
Yes, I feel like I come to a point in relationships where I am not sure how to continue. With my French guy friend, for example, I would like to reveal a safe personal detail, gauging the reaction, but am not sure what this secret could be. With (another!) French guy friend I took the plunge and told him about my M and he opened up and told me about his (similar to mine).
This^^ baffles me. You are a smart educated man, with nothing to be ashamed of. If you were a child molester just paroled, I'd say "keep that to yourself"...but you act as if revealing things re: your m are things another person would reject you for. That's not rational, imo.
Why on earth do you withhold your "secrets"? What is there to fear so much? Granted, and I mention this so I remind myself as well, I am an extrovert. My youngest d is an introvert and for HER, revealing things is terrifying. But she has enough teammates and a few close friends with whom she is FULLY honest. Since she's wondering about her sexual orientation, which sometimes felt "shameful", I can see why she'd hesitate. But she plunged ahead, and has close friends who accept her. Only a few rejected her, and she survived.
I don't know if you have anyone in your life with whom you are fully honest Luke, but you need to. Everyone needs to, or they'll be very lonely.
I'd like to identify a spectrum of safe to less safe to completely revealing secrets or intimate knowledge, and start revealing it, moving toward fellowship and deeper friendships.
YIkes...all I can say is that without disclosure, it's very hard to build intimacy.
What are your terribly monstrous secrets?? Without revealing yourself, "who" is the other person getting to know?
I suppose with a whole lot of time spent together, yet saying very little, could still bond you with someone, but not nearly as quickly.
And I'm not sure mind reading builds a "real" bond b/c of all the guesswork & projection, that the withholding of information, causes.
Action: had lunch with an urban planner, who had worked in New England (where I am from), and then dinner with an MIT guy, an interesting person that I hope to see again.
Luke
Keep at this, Luke. Don't be stuck. Exercise choice.
W ignored me this morning, making no acknowledgment of my existence, even when we were in the same room. I just now informed her thatI am leaving to run for 2 hours, to which she says nothing, but signs with her hand something like "whatever", not looking at me.
I felt mad, disrespected.
I suppose that showing anger is appropriate, or do I just ignore her back, a cold war?
We were invited to a dinner party last night, where Putin and Russia were discussed. I contributed some, but was not the driving force. My (mind reading) says W wanted a more conversationally dominating man instead of me.
Luke
"I suppose that showing anger is appropriate, or do I just ignore her back, a cold war?"
Luke, my opinion is that you should do neither. At this point, what she does should not affect you.
you need to get passed worrying about what she does or thinks.
but instead you're still gauging your self-worth on her whims.
a man of confidence and strength would note her actions, and move on without any other thoughts.
if you need to feel anything, maybe feel pity that she's so shallow and hurtful and childish.
"W ignored me this morning, making no acknowledgment of my existence, even when we were in the same room. I just now informed her thatI am leaving to run for 2 hours, to which she says nothing, but signs with her hand something like "whatever", not looking at me.
I felt mad, disrespected."
Why? She's always treated you that way because you've allowed her to. You're actually noticing these things which is a good thing.
"I suppose that showing anger is appropriate, or do I just ignore her back, a cold war?"
Neither is appropriate. That's why I recommended that during this period, you have a choice to make things better.
"We were invited to a dinner party last night, where Putin and Russia were discussed. I contributed some, but was not the driving force. My (mind reading) says W wanted a more conversationally dominating man instead of me. "
That was total mindreading. And in any event, a topic like that is based on ones opinion and not fact. You must contribute to discussions all the time at work, do the same here.
Again, you're way over-analyzing everything. Afraid to take the wrong step. Life is filled with uncertainties. Sometimes you just need to take that leap of faith and put yourself out there. THAT will show confidence.
Again, you're way over-analyzing everything. Afraid to take the wrong step. Life is filled with uncertainties. Sometimes you just need to take that leap of faith and put yourself out there. THAT will show confidence.
Follow that advice as if your life depends on it because one day you will realize it does, a man without confidence its like a guardian dog without a voice and no teeth...once they realize the dog its just to "decorate" thief's will trespass every night
Q: why withhold 'secrets'? Because of not knowing what would be done with them, or how the person might react, because I might become a figure of pity or disrespect by others, because it seems like a complicated morass of feelings opens, because sides might be taken. (so the usual mix of mistrust and not knowing).
Action: got invited to run by a French friend tonight. He is the one person here I feel resonant with - . Helped d16 study for an exam.
Idea: attended a special church service with the them of immigrant integration, where d16 played. The special speaker (whose d16 played with our d16 when they were young kids) told us about the program he runs to introduce new immigrants to Swedish society, where we current residents can help out by befriending newcomers. This seems a good thing to do, a way of giving back.
W still put her paycheck into our shared account.
I am traveling on business next week, and so will probably only be irregularly online.
Luke
"Q: why withhold 'secrets'? Because of not knowing what would be done with them, or how the person might react, because I might become a figure of pity or disrespect by others, because it seems like a complicated morass of feelings opens, because sides might be taken. (so the usual mix of mistrust and not knowing). "
That's all paranoia and fear on your part.
That's what's gotten you here in the first place. Take little steps. Reveal a little about yourself a bit at a time. No one said you need to make grand gestures and tell everyone everything about you.
And besides, if they form opinions (which all human beings do), then embrace them. It has nothing to do with you but how they view themselves. If they can't accept you for who you are the way you are, then they're not your friend. Simple as that.
Action: revealed presumably impending D to French friend on our run today, and he told me a bit about his problems. I am invited over to play music with him now. The world did not end when I revealed this stuff...
Luke
"The world did not end when I revealed this stuff..."
You don't have to tell us that. What matters is that you believe it.
Hi Bond,
I believe it.
Luke
Now what else are you going to do to increase better communications with your W?
That is the 64000$ question, Mr. Bond. Beyond physically being nearby, and making conversation when I see her, I don't know. She doesn't ask me about my day - though she knows I did various things - so it feels difficult. Sometimes she'll open a bit more at dinner when d16 is present and talk about her day or some issue.
I think communication is best spoken, but perhaps email (I'll be in the States all of May) can be exploited somehow?
One question is what to talk about, another is when (only at meals? as she is mostly upstairs, though sometimes in the garden, it feels like I am deliberately having to approach her to talk when I go up or out, and so it seems less easy and natural). I do try to ask her about her day, though she is mostly not forthcoming in reply.
Are speech and email the only forms of communication I should use? I've prepped the door that needs repainting, I could scrape an outbuilding wall in preparation for repainting, I made a smoked salmon and broccoli quiche the other day. Flowers got questioned when I sent them last year ("why did you send these?"). My Virginia Woolf's Garden (her literary hero, and my W loves gardening) book present is languishing on the bookshelf. I let her take the car when she asks.
Perhaps I need to set boundaries more, though opportunities have not recently arisen?
Luke
making smalltalk around someone who makes you uncomfortable is unnerving. as an introvert, i struggle making smalltalk.
if you can easily talk to strangers, or acquaintances at work, i'd look at what topics you choose with them, or what feelings/expectations you have in those conversations and then try to apply that to her. block out the fact she's your W and there's issues in your R.
conversations don't need a goal or outcome, sometimes its just empty words about nothing.
years ago i watched a short documentary about sports and baseball. the gist of this is that sports allow people to make connections and conversation when the individuals have nothing else in common. Two complete strangers can sit at a bar and spend hours talking about sports, and teams, and player statistics, and what happened last season and whats going to happen next season. they can get emotional about it, they can argue about it. and there is an endless supply of information, none of it is taken personal.
find her "sport", something that has endless topics, that she's passionate about, that's unrelated to your R, and gather information about it. if its flowers and gardening, try that. maybe home renovations, cooking. forget about making the conversation have a goal - dont think of it as a method to make a connection with her or convince her of anything. just let it be an end to itself.
Just start talking about something...anything. It could be a sentence, it could be a story, whatever, just get used to talking to her without fear. My W clammed up so much that she stopped talking to me for 3 years at the beginning of my sitch. Your W at least acknowledges you. AND yet you call it disrespectful.
Why not get on the internet and find some cheesy silly jokes to remember. You both can laugh at the ridiculousness and it might settle down your nerves.
I have had the same issue with approaching women or talking with people. I felt I needed to be charming or serious or have a point to the conversation. I don't think so anymore. I have had more enjoyable conversations about the most random of topics than things I thought were good topics. The joke thing has worked for me with just about anyone I talk with.
Being with your W as long as you have you can probably think of something she likes. Ask her questions about current events that are in the news, then follow up with questions about what she said. I find it easier to ask questions and listen than to talk. Becoming a better listener and using my heart instead of my ears has helped me become better at conversations.
You seem to do a lot of traveling, I am sure you could find things to talk about. Airline food, flight delays, turbulence. I also make up ridiculous stories and make obvious lies about things just to be funny and have something to talk about. Upon leaving or returning from a flight I might talk about how
"I am nervous to fly again because last time I had to take the controls while the pilot used the bathroom. He got the kosher meal, but it must not have been any good. Those new 777s are a little complicated, but nothing for good ol' me to figure out. With a little help from Google I had us on approach to JFK in no time."Seriously, try the stupid joke. For example.. "What did the fish say when he swam into the wall? Dam!"
No need to be embarrassed if it doesn't work, after all the joke is supposed to be bad in the first place. Break the ice and start talking.
Action: revealed presumably impending D to French friend on our run today, and he told me a bit about his problems. I am invited over to play music with him now. The world did not end when I revealed this stuff...
Luke
Luke, how would the Essential Experience workshop have been for you if you had Not disclosed anything about yourself?
Allow me to answer....it would have been a failure. But you risked and it paid off.
Personally, I am an extrovert and am far more terrified of being Unknown or misunderstood, than having a secret or two revealed or shared.
Often, not always but often, a friend shares a secret of mine to another friend, b/c they BOTH want to help ME. And they do.
I feel enriched by the friendships and my siblings are a huge help too, although they live back east.
I wish the same for you. But to think you could feel close, known, or understood and loved by someone you never reveal yourself to, is a much bigger risk imo.
In fact it might be part of why you and your w feel so distant. You don't share much with her and she shares little with you.
Your thoughts? Also are you coming out here next month? If so, let me know
Ken, Bond, gogofo, MLC - thanks. W has been nice recently, even asking about my upcoming trip to Budapest, and so making conversation has been easier. I took your suggestions and brought up how we may be starting to talk to dolphins, some crazy dreams I had, the maker of my d16's violin, etc.
Bond - I think that is the first time I ever heard about your sitch. 3 years of no talk - that would drive me crazy - I trust things have improved?
gogo - thanks for the jokes. I'll post one from my d16.
ken - yes, just talking, without a particular goal, seems a good strategy.
MLC - yes, I should be there all of May. I'll text you when I have the dates and am available.
At Essential Experience I made the conscious decision to trust and be open, and it was really cathartic as a result. Talking to an EE graduate before going made this possible (I really liked and trusted him) and the environment of the workshop helps too (go Inside Team!). It was so good to hear about peoples' innermost selves, and to be received as one is there.
One thing that has made me a bit leery of revealing myself is being taken for strange or weird sometimes, along with the negative remarks that entails. My W has said as much, as have coworkers and my MIL, but I think it is useful and fun to flip thoughts, or assume crazy things and see where they lead, or to poke around in not mainstream areas. It isn't always pleasant, of course, and often lonely, but I feel it is a strength and enriches life.
That is why I thought that a similarly in her head woman might understand me well, seeing the world via her own special mental filter.
Yes, not sharing with W is not an intimacy builder. I just don't want to get put down again for doing so.
My French friend invited me to go running again, but I couldn't. I will see him hopefully next weekend for a long one, and hopefully get to learn more about the real him (he has a son with Asperger's, has dad had Asperger's, and he thinks he did as a kid too, but now feels that he manages to hide it well, and so is not his real self; he also has marriage problems).
Friends are great (thanks again, Bond, for your advice to get nearer to people, rather than avoiding them!).
Gtg - Luke (travel starts tomorrow, so patchily online only)
Why do witches hate twins? Because they can't tell which is which.
Luke
I handed down one of my favorite jokes to my D recently, I'm proud to say she's been using it on her friends. and now may be a good time to share with you.
"you can pick your friends,
and you can pick your nose,
but you cant pick your friends nose."
Hi Ken,
haha - I'll use that on my d16 and s20, who are now home.
What can you use to fix a broken pizza? Tomato paste...
I am back from my week long business trip, s20 is now home for a few weeks also.
Just signed papers to get facade done, which seems a step in the direction of freedom.
Luke
Action: went biking last night with French friend, getting a bit closer as he disclosed his changing from ENTJ to ENFP on Meyers-Briggs (admittedly an inexact science) and I talked about my experience at EE.
W has (probably unknowingly) preempted trip to Stockholm with d16, so this will need to be in the next two or so weeks instead. W and d16 hang out together a lot; I work.
D is probably best solution to this, when hopefully d16 will sometimes spend time with me (she is free to choose, per Swedish law).
Luke
Hi Luke
How is it going..
Helps to have friends I think..
I thought I did not need them before.. I thought my H filled that need for me.. I don't need a lot of people.. just some..
anyway I was wrong..
enjoy the Easter cold...hope last weeks was not all the summer we will be getting..!
You're doing it AGAIN! You were on a good path - connecting with your daughter, getting friends, etc. Now you're saying that only if you get a D will you be able to spend time with your d.
Why can't you be your own man and just make things happen rather than expecting external situations to do it for you because you don't have a choice?
You complained all the time about your W spending time with your daughter, but you don't do anything to initiate. You could very well have had a good relationship with your W with your daughter if you would just start engaging with them. Every time you see a little bit of progress, you stop when you hit a roadblock and then mutter under your breath about how bad things are.
DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! I think you need your testosterone level checked or something because the male aggressive tendencies are not in you.
Action: talked back to wife after she said "what is the sudden interest in vacuuming? You've never done it before", when I helped vacuum up s20s beard hair after trimming. I pointed out that I vacuumed the bathroom, the hall, ... and she said "I don't care". I said "well then you should not criticize, my friend", end of conversation. I was mad - .
L
Action: invited d16 to car wash, she did not go. Invited her to flower hill, she did not go. Met her at train station.
Took s20 to "selfish giant", an excellent but depressing movie.
I do feel outgunned by W, Bond. I am not mean, like she is, and mean people have always had one up on me.
Perhaps I will get testoserone checked - am due for blood test anyway.
Luke
Action: invited d16 to car wash, she did not go. Invited her to flower hill, she did not go. Met her at train station.
Took s20 to "selfish giant", an excellent but depressing movie.
I do feel outgunned by W, Bond. I am not mean, like she is, and mean people have always had one up on me.
Perhaps I will get testoserone checked - am due for blood test anyway.
Luke
Hi Luke
mean people suck the life force out of people who want everyone to be happy..
They practice meanness and for me I am always surprised when it hits..They seem big and strong and powerful..I am not sure they are but seems that way.
I mentally hand their problem back to them..they are mean but I will not allow it to impact my day or my life..
and 16 year old girls.. a whole different species.If my experiences are anything to go on.. the positives you do may not be acknowledged but they will be noticed and filed away..well my daughter did.. at about 25 she started sharing..she remembered so many small things in a good way.. and even occasions when we had argued she remembered I was right...
anyway Luke.. need some German language assistance..
if I wanted to do a search for
divorce.. impact.. children ..life in the German language .. what terms should I use?
thanks
Loua
Hi Lou,
yes, I won't stop doing good, right things, just because my acerbic wife needs to drip some acid. I do wonder what is in their head, though, do they know they are mean?
Deutsch: scheidung = divorce, auswirkung, effekte = impact,
Try searching with scheidung kinder auswirkung alter (age) leben
My apologies for being offline so long - business trip (W was jealous of the 5 days in Budapest) - I'll try to be more regular when W and D16 are back at school.
L
Oh, and the unexpectedness of the attack is so odd - I'd been making conversation on and off, on this and that, trying to improve communication, said good morning to W when she saw me (she doesn't always answer), she'd said "there is hot water if you want tea", a more friendly than usual remark (she often doesn't say anything unless she needs something), and then this, when it is clearly untrue. Sure, I don't vacuum as much as she does, but I do cook (though she has been doing this all this week) and clean the kitchen and pay for the place.
Why be mean and unfriendly? It sure doesn't adhere to Dale Carnegie's method...
Luke
I worked with a mean woman once..snipey and unkind
..
My buddy there said just to remember
" she is doing the best she can- even when it isn't very good".
I think it is a pattern a way of interacting with the world.. a habit .. like being pessimistic.
some kids are just plain mean in class even little kids..some are naturally kind.. some family influences sure, but some built in personalty as well
Sattay positive buddy your kids need that other model in their lives..
thanks for the German vocab..checked a dictionary but there were quite a few with shades of meaning i was unsure of,
"Action: talked back to wife after she said "what is the sudden interest in vacuuming? You've never done it before","
I don't get why you think her asking was rude.
"when I helped vacuum up s20s beard hair after trimming. I pointed out that I vacuumed the bathroom, the hall, ... and she said "I don't care"."
I understand her POV. She really didn't need a reply.
"I said "well then you should not criticize, my friend", end of conversation. I was mad - ."
Why? You really need to choose your battles wisely.
As for your kids, don't give up. The reason why they're not receptive to you is because you didn't really try before. And any way, telling your daughter that you want to take her to a car wash isn't exactly what I would consider a good time.
Be patient and for God's sake, take your son out to do something fun rather than a depressing film like - Selfish Giant. Was that your son's recommendation? What does he like to do?
Hi Bond,
The point was that I do vacuum, though not as often and exactingly as W does (if I have not mentioned it, she takes the head off the hose and vacuums with the hose end alone, for maximum suction; she disapproves of my using the usual 'stick' extension, but I don't care). She, as I heard it, said that I never do, which is simply not true. When I asked d16 what I could give her a while ago, she said I could vacuum (!) and clean the house, so I do.
I do see your point, Bond, that she simply might not care exactly what I do cleaningwise.
I offered to do the laundry years ago, and she said "please do not", that I am not good at it. She takes over the kitchen when on vacation, as if she wants nothing from me. So my household jobs are mostly cooking on weekdays, when the women are out working and I have time to prepare food.
S20 really liked Selfish Giant, an excellent movie. He studies English Lit, so this literary/arty stuff is to his taste.
S20 likes our cats, his friends, his university, humor (Colbert, Stewart and the Onion are heroes), web stuff.
Our little town here is not the most exciting place. The car wash is actually a (for here) event of sorts...
Action: took son to car dealer's, where snow tires come off tomorrow, and then walked back with him through town, stopping at various stores, including his favorite, the cheese specialist, where we got some new smelly ones for him (he chose). He is much easier than either d16 or W to be with.
Big fun here is riding on multi-person railroad bicycles, the kids sing and we speed along, pick berries or mushrooms, picnic, talk, relax. W did not come on the most recent trip, fortunately, so I had a very good time.
Luke
"The point was that I do vacuum, though not as often and exactingly as W does "
Did she tell you that was a problem before?
"(if I have not mentioned it, she takes the head off the hose and vacuums with the hose end alone, for maximum suction; she disapproves of my using the usual 'stick' extension, but I don't care)."
But if her way works better (which it usually does) then you should do it. In the end all you're getting is a clean house.
"I do see your point, Bond, that she simply might not care exactly what I do cleaningwise."
Of course she doesn't.
"I offered to do the laundry years ago, and she said "please do not", that I am not good at it."
Many women actually say this. It doesn't mean anything in terms of disrespect.
"She takes over the kitchen when on vacation, as if she wants nothing from me."
Seriously? Why do you feel so rejected just because she wants to use HER kitchen? I think you're so wrapped up in the ACTS OF SERVICE part of love that if someone else does it, you actually feel rejected and not useful. It makes sense. I mean, you think you have no self-worth so your service is the only thing you think you can offer. Then when that's gone, you feel rejection.
"So my household jobs are mostly cooking on weekdays, when the women are out working and I have time to prepare food."
So?
"S20 really liked Selfish Giant, an excellent movie. He studies English Lit, so this literary/arty stuff is to his taste."
Okay but next time you should just do things together that's not so heavy in subject where you two can just laugh.
"Action: took son to car dealer's, where snow tires come off tomorrow, and then walked back with him through town, stopping at various stores, including his favorite, the cheese specialist, where we got some new smelly ones for him (he chose). He is much easier than either d16 or W to be with."
That's because he's your BOY. You can't relate to women. But that doesn't mean you can't learn to. You isolated yourself from your own daughter for a long time so it will take awhile for things to grow.
"Big fun here is riding on multi-person railroad bicycles, the kids sing and we speed along, pick berries or mushrooms, picnic, talk, relax."
Sounds like fun.
"W did not come on the most recent trip, fortunately, so I had a very good time."
Passive aggressive. How do you know you wouldn't have had a good time with your W? Throughout all of this, I haven't seen you make any CONSISTENT effort to improve things with your W. I mean if you don't plan to, then why don't you go ahead and file for a D already?
I am feeling quite sad. Vacuumed again, unbidden (W makes daily work list for s20, and sometimes would do the same for me). No walks or activities with kids today. W made dinner. At least she accepted that I made lunch. During my 2 hour business teleconference tonight, w and d16 were together, sitting next to each other in bed, watching something on youtube, chatting, s20 playing a videogame.
So if I don't improve my R with d16, I suppose I should just pay what is needed, be friendly, not expect anything, and go have fun with others. I hardly see d16, W walks with her to and from train, disappears upstairs with her after dinner. I feel like I can't relate or attract her well, and any time is just lost. It'd be easier to just give up and not count her as a loss. Does my child owe me anything? I'd like to think not.
At least s20 has said yes to the (delayed) Sicily trip, this coming Christmas vacation.
Am thinking of telling d16 where her fancy new laptop is hidden in my room while I am in the US, giving her a 'magic', unexpected present. She's mentioned a few times that she would like one, but is first expecting it when I return.
Is journaling a good outlet for sadness like this?
Luke
Luke,
Hearing this is very difficult for me:
It'd be easier to just give up and not count her as a loss.Really?!
My late beloved father and I were as tight as Velcro. Sure, we had our rough times, but he NEVER, NEVER gave up on me. At one point, our father-daughter relationship was very strained where we fought ALMOST every day during my middle school years...that is 3 years of almost misery. I was asserting my independence and a fairly headstrong girl.
During my teenage years, I was self-absorbed and not really wanting to hang out with him much. However, my father made the time to involve me in some activities that were father-daughter bonding time. We would have our chess matches, backgammon matches, or going out in town to play pool. In the Sprint time, we would go mushroom hunting for morsel mushrooms back in my grandparents' woods. I have very, very fond memories of those special times with my Dad.
When I moved in with my Dad during the last year of his life to support him through his cancer, I still hold this very much cherished memory. One day, I was working hard at my home office. Dad walked in and said, "Wonka, come on out with me." Distracted, I said, "No, I can't. Need to finish some work here." Not deterred at all, Dad said "Look, Wonka...I would really like for you to come out and blow bubbles with me." Well....who can resist that?! So we went out in the backyard patio and blew bubbles. I felt like a 5-year old again and laughed with unabashed delight. We both laughed and tried to out compete against each other with blowing the BIGGEST bubbles. Now...nearly 2 years on after his death, I still vividly remember this special moment with him.
Don't EVER give up on your own daughter, Luke!
It is UP to you work hard at your relationships with your D and S. This is how you show love for your own children.
"So if I don't improve my R with d16, I suppose I should just pay what is needed, be friendly, not expect anything, and go have fun with others. I hardly see d16, W walks with her to and from train, disappears upstairs with her after dinner. I feel like I can't relate or attract her well, and any time is just lost. It'd be easier to just give up and not count her as a loss. Does my child owe me anything? I'd like to think not. "
WTH? This is one of the most depressing things I've heard from you. So you're not even going to try any more? She's YOUR DAUGHTER for God's sake man! YOU start taking action in building those interactions. Stop relying on someone to do them for you. Have you ever been diagnosed with depression?