Last thread:
melissa- standing up for me Carrying over from my last thread . . .
3, 25 and Wonka,
THANK YOU!I came out of yoga this afternoon, feeling kind of emotional as I usually do (it's weird, it's not necessarily sad, just emotions come out!), and I was thinking about some stuff about my H.
Like how he insists on vilifying me in any way he can. And I realized, he has done that for years. Instead of listening to me and taking my word for what I say, he would decide that what I really was saying/thinking/doing was something evil and offensive to him. And many times he would even argue his point, to prove that he was right and I was wrong.
So as I drove home from yoga, I thought, WOW. I deserve better than that. You know what? I am a really f-ing nice person. I do things for other people all the time. I am honest. I am reliable. I am considerate. Surely there is someone who would appreciate those qualities in me rather than trying to deny them.
Anyway. Then I got home and read your posts . . . and first I read Wonka's and 25's, and I imagined donning my helmet and dodging rotten tomatoes, and I laughed, and then I read 3b's post and I just bawled.
You know what, 3? You are right! I am changing things. And even though I am sad that I am in this place, because of course I would have preferred that my H wanted to work on the M rather than getting D, I DO feel proud of myself for having gotten here. I know there is still a LONG way to go, but I feel like in the past week or so (after my week from hell where everyone who read my posts wanted to institutionalize me), I have really grown a lot.
Yay me.
I went this afternoon to look for a new car . . . I actually laughed out loud thinking it was a good thing that H wasn't there since he can't negotiate his way out of a paper bag (and always made it seem like me being a shrewd negotiator was a bad thing, like I was a bitch or something). Then I saw a couple looking at cars and it made me feel sad. Just to have that person you can make these decisions with, and just be around and feel comfortable, not to mention, having that future where they will own the car together . . . I bet you all know that feeling I am talking about. It just kind of svcks.
I wish we could post a poll here . . . I am seriously swinging back and forth between getting a convertible (oh, the sun on my shoulders, the wind in my hair!), or staying in an SUV (oh, the trunk space and rear windshield wiper!)
I may have to flip a coin.
Too quick on the trigger -
Wonka, I am sending my good vibes your grandmother's way! I know a fall at that age can be really tough. My grandmother (now 93) did the same a few years ago, but she pulled through and is back to her spunky self. I hope your grandmother does the same.
H just texted me to let me know that the kids told him I am looking at buying a convertible, and to remind me that I need to inform him in advance of any large expenditures, per the injunction.
He makes me laugh.
P.S. My L said I don't need his permission as long as my payment is the same or less than it is now.
M,
It is all about control to him. By gosh, he'll die on this hill!
Thank you, M & 25, for your kind thoughts about my grandmother. She's healing quite nicely.
Was that really an unreasonable comment from him? How would he know what level of car payment you're looking at?
I know you're looking for the balance between being pushed around by him and standing on your own. Not everything he does is evil, some things he does are just human.
Ad . . . I don't think the comment was evil. I just think it was silly.
He is angry about the injunction. And he knows full well I understand it. There is no reason to remind me. I know my H. It wasn't just a neutral public service announcement.
You can chose whether it's neutral or not.
I can choose whether to interpret it and respond to it as though it's neutral, yes.
I thought about it, and decided that whether it was neutral or not, it didn't require a response.
I'm definitely still trying to find the balance. For a long while, I gave my H the benefit of the doubt when interpreting his words and actions. Then, over time, the evidence built up and it became clear that I had given him too much credit, and that doing so hurt me.
He has shown me that, at the moment, he is extremely self-serving, with no regard to the consequences to others. (Well, at least, the consequences to me, and potentially my children.) So I have to keep that in mind when dealing with him.
I can choose whether to interpret it and respond to it as though it's neutral, yes.
I thought about it, and decided that whether it was neutral or not, it didn't require a response.
I'm definitely still trying to find the balance. For a long while, I gave my H the benefit of the doubt when interpreting his words and actions. Then, over time, the evidence built up and it became clear that I had given him too much credit, and that doing so hurt me.
He has shown me that, at the moment, he is extremely self-serving, with no regard to the consequences to others. (Well, at least, the consequences to me, and potentially my children.) So I have to keep that in mind when dealing with him.
So true. I am finding this also. I am trying hard to just detach and move on. From what I've been told (and I'm a few weeks behind you on this one) W never intended to stay married and my heartache and wanting to fix this, was not shared. Although, she never let me see that. She let me continue to believe that there was something that could be done...there really wasn't
it is also worth noting that while we contributed to the death of our M's, often times, the pain that is in the WAS's life would have been there with or without our inputs. I spent a lot of time trying to figure it out. I can't anymore. I need to heal this wound and be better for me and my kids. She's hurting and I am not the sole cause of it. You are not the sole cause of your H's hurt either. Nor can you be his savior.
Blue Skies
arrrgghhhh.
So yesterday my H decided he was too angry to discuss anything with the kids.
Then he texts me this morning to inform me that my D9 had trouble sleeping last night. They had a conversation where he asked if the separate living arrangements were bothering her. D9 apparently said, "no, not all. I mean, it's not like it's permanent." My H said,
At that point I told her that it might become permanent. I did not discuss the divorce with her and she let it go at that.
OK, tell me if I am just being negative or slamming my H for no reason. But my reaction to this? Are you f-ing kidding me?????
So he tells her that it might become permanent, leaving her to wonder WTF that means. And what happens when she tells S7, and when they ask me about it?
I don't know what to do. I feel like now it's affecting the kids, so I have to do something. Should I insist that he tell them the truth?
Argh is right.
Honestly, I'd have to say something. I know I'm probably gonna have that conversation with my son several years from now. And I will tell him the truth.
Your kids need to know this is a permanent(with how things are currently going in your sitch) arrangement.
I don't think limbo land is healthy for adults nevermind children.
Did she go back to sleep?
He was honest and told you what he said.
Not that I want to defend your H, but he was being honest. As co-parents, sometimes discussions are going to come up with the kids that aren't at the perfect planned out time......and you just have to go with them.
When asked, you respond honestly. "We are going through a rough time and this might be permanent. Now whatever happens between Daddy on I, we still love you both very much" Then hugs and kisses time.
As for your poll....Soft top wrangler. Convertible and SUV in one package
She was up until 4:00; he said this convo took place at 1:00.
Yes, he was honest. The point isn't to bash my H, it's to try to figure out how to manage this for my kids.
You don't know that there's anything to manage, see if your D asks further questions.
LFW gave you some good advice.
I'd also text H and thank him for the heads up.
Middle of the night convos catch many of us flat-footed. I'm definitely not at my best between the hours of 1 and 4.
Mel, this is hard and you are on the fast track so you're not getting the luxury of time that a lot of us get to mellow out. I push and prod because it is too easy for people to feed the frenzy of outrage, sarcasm, and eye-rolling at the crazy things a was does. It is not an attractive or healthy place to be, though. You don't have to rise above it, there are plenty of people in the world who will join you in slamming your H for everything he says or does. But it would be good for you to work toward peaceful detachment as a goal, maybe with some baby steps. Just sayin.
I'm not perfect, I do it too. Every little thing my H does gets my goat, and there are plenty of people ready to agree. I don't want to be that person.
Honestly, I have no desire to get annoyed by everything my H does. And I agree, I think it is gross when people make rude remarks about their exes.
Right now,I just want him to leave me alone. He goes from super nice to cruel to rude to manipulative back to nice in a matter of 24 hours, and I am having a lot of trouble managing my own thoughts and emotions if I follow along.
I find that if I allow myself to see him as a genuinely nice person, I just get emotionally slammed the next day or hour when he spits his hate and blame at me. And I feel like I am once again on the H roller coaster.
Also, much of the reason I vent about my H is to find the humor in it. It's a matter of survival right now.
So, most of the post before that last one involved things you would require of H in order for your behavior to be different: him to leave you alone, him to act consistent, him to let you off his roller coaster. All of your thoughts and feelings belong to you, not him. That's what I'm trying to help you see. You control your thoughts. You decide to think he's silly or horrible or mean and your feelings follow. In survival mode: take what facts come to you and take appropriate action that is best for yourself and your kids, and try to stop focusing on how he's acting and how outrageous you think it is.
Thanks, Gineen. What it comes down to, really, is that I am angry with my H for telling the kids he was coming back back when we had the S talk, when (and he has acknowledged this) he knew damn well he wasn't ever coming back. It was selfish and cowardly of him to do that. Had he not done that to begin with, there wouldn't be an issue of whether he should tell my D9 without me, or give her a half assed answer in the middle of the night.
And you don't have to choose to see him as a genuinely nice person or as an evil person. Those are two big extremes. Don't place him in a category. Just take each interaction as it comes.
I don't think my H is evil. I think he is somewhere deep down a really a good person with a good heart, but he is pretty limited emotionally, and right now, he is extremely self absorbed. It's really hard to deal with because I don't want to think he's a jerk, but he sure does act like one most of the time lately. And when he acts nice, I am scared to believe it's real (the person I know he is or can be) because I have been smacked down too many times now and I just can't allow myself to go there.
At this point, I just feel like I don't even want to have any kind of conversation or interaction with him at all, because it's just too hard, and it distracts me from trying to get my own life in order. I spent almost an entire week recently in a complete tailspin and it was awful.
I feel really frustrated right now. I want more than anything to just have a regular conversation with my H. I want him to understand me, rather than making up his absurd assumptions about everything that all involve me being a horrible person. But even though he claims to want to talk about it, I can't. I know what will happen. I will come away from the conversation feeling less understood and much smaller than I did before.
I wish he really would go to the Australian bush for a while.
More rude text messages from my H today. I told him it is difficult to communicate when his texts are so hateful. He said it is my fault bc I made him angry by not explaining myself to him, leaving him to assume the worst.
(There are so many things wrong with that sentence, aren't there?)
So stupidly (wanting to be the one to try for the sake of friendly co-parenting), I asked what it was he wanted to know. He said,
"Why did you betray my trust by hiring the most aggressive D lawyer in town to file a petition without telling me about it first?"
I decided I am done with this. I really am. I don't know if this is bad DBing, but I said,
"That's not a question. That's an accusation. I am sorry you feel angry when I don't respond to you, but I won't accept being treated with disrespect."
So I got a whole mess of texts telling me that I don't deserve respect bc I don't act with respect, and I don't take responsibility for anything, and that if I don't own it I better not complain about him being mad about it. That I should want to communicate with him because I don't want him to be pissed off. (?!) Or I don't communicate with him because I want to piss him off, or leave him to assume the worst.
I am overwhelmed with the prospect of having to deal with this for the rest of my life.
(And maybe a little bit glad that I only have to deal with it as his ex wife and not his wife, now that I think about it.)
I can tell him to contact me only about the kids, but even that is laced with hate and sarcasm. Do I just ignore the fact that he is rude and disrespectful, and answer whatever the question is (assuming it needs one)?
My MO lately has been to ignore anything rude, and answer only respectful communications. Not sure what to do when it has something to do with the kids, though.
Also, he asked me for my login info for my Amex card. I don't want to give it to him because I don't trust him to have admin authority on my account (if he decided to be a real dick he could cancel the account with that access). I told him he could call to find out whatever information he needs. He said no, he wants to see MY statement (if he calls, they will only tell him information about his card and spending). And he's being rude about it.
I can't decide whether to email him the statement (at this point, I am pretty sure he is just going to go through and rag on me for whatever is on it) or just tell him to talk to my lawyer. I don't want to start sh!t, but I am tired of being attacked.
Bllaaahhh, what a crap ass day. Don't bother posting to me today, I'm just in idiot mode. Can I delete my whole thread and start over tomorrow?
M,
Stealing a quick moment here.
Honey, you're not being an idiot, but being Melissa with all of your emotions being bashed left and right by H. What you can do is unhitch yourself from H's wagon. Otherwise, you'll be dragged all over the place like a ragged doll.
Disenage from H for a while and let the emotions cool down. Right now in the filing, separation, talking things to the kids, financials have stirred up all sorts of emotions on both sides. This does not necessarily make H the evil one. H is just operating from fear so his texts are all over the place and pushing all of your buttons like an Otis elevator.
There'll be a time when all of this will fade away into the distance and you'll both will learn by trial and error to co-parent effetively that works for all of you.
Hang in there, sweetie. We've got your back here.
I'm smiling at this text from H:
"Why did you betray my trust by hiring the most aggressive D lawyer in town to file a petition without telling me about it first?"
He's really mad that you've pulled the rug out from under his feet because you've one upped him in this area in protecting your intersts. This suggests that there's a real underlying fear that he'll NOT be able to control the outcome of the D proceedings in his favor. Hmmmmm. He hates losing control of this process. So he is shifting the blame on to you. Isn't that interesting?
M you are doing great. Just breathe...
Thanks, you guys.
My H suddenly turned a corner and said that he is not immune to the fact that he is bitching about betrayal when he is the one who left, turned my life upside down and took away the future I thought I had. He said he recognizes that we have both been tremendously hurt in the R and he knows he has hurt me a lot, but that doesn't make him less angry about my betrayal.
He said when I filed without telling him, he assumed the worst. I asked what that was, and he said "that you were going to try to [censored] me over and take my kids away from me."
(Trying REALLY hard not to be so pissed off about that - what the F kind of person does he think I am? I would never do that to my kids.)
Anyway. I reiterated what I already told him. That I never wanted any of it, but since my opinion/desire about that doesn't count, and since it became clear to me over the past five months that my needs/feelings are irrelevant to him, I decided I needed to accept that reality and look out for myself and the kids.
(I wish I hadn't said that, I feel like it put me in the one-down position again.)
He wrote back,
"I'm not sure why you think you need to look out for your kids. I can also tell you that your comment about your feelings/needs/existence being irrelevant to me is also wrong. I've tried to be clear about this - my needs come before yours. For the first time since we started dating, that's what I'm doing. That doesn't mean that I don't care about you. Yes, I'm dating women. Yes, I don't want to be married. If that means I don't care about you, then so be it. If you're saying that because i slept with you after we separated, I'm sorry. I [censored] that up and I [censored] that up good. I did to you exactly what my Dad did to [Wife #2] and what I wanted to avoid. I'm sorry. I should have been a better person."
I am done with this convo, and wish I had never gotten into it. Ugh.
Now I find myself wanting to say something but am wondering if I am just trying to take control back.
I was very close to saying, "I don't think there is any point in continuing this discussion. I expect and want nothing from you, other than basic human respect when it is necessary to communicate about the kids."
But I thought better of it and came here instead.
I just want him to leave me alone. Reading the crap he says (a) is meaningless to me; and (b) just messes with my PMA and moving forward.
Of course the truth is, I WANT something completely different, but that is not available to me. And I just feel like, right now, I can't deal with him at all. I don't want to scorch the earth, but I want to unhitch myself from his wagon (great analogy W!)
No, my H is not evil. He is selfish. And he has a bad habit of assuming the worst about me. Even though you know what, I'm a really nice/good person. And even if there was evidence that directly contradicted his assumption. I don't know if it's a defense mechanism or what, but it really hurts me.
I really just need to be away from him. And that makes me sad, but I know I have to do it. Because as much as I have grown and detached, I still haven't fully accepted this and I still let my H's opinions/words/feelings hurt me.
So sorry to hear this.
Try to remember this:
STFU
KISS
For the next few days, I'd suggest that you disengage from H totally except communications regarding the kids.
Wow M great post. I would say many of the same things about my W. They are similar although she is more about her hobbies thsn OP.
Ugh, I know, I know.
You know what tripped me up?
I didn't want my H to think I am evil for filing.
Yuck.
Yuck, yuck, yuck.
Where is 25 with my slap upside the head? Harder this time, 25!!!
So do you think I should just ignore his last text and leave it at that?
He really gets me with this "I'll just assume terrible things about you if you don't talk to me" thing. Why the HELL do I fall for that? That's ridiculous. (Both are ridiculous - the fact that he does it and the fact that I fall for it.)
M,
Remember our caution to you about H coming right at you out of his foxhole? See for what it truly was...a desperate move on his part.
As for your stinking thinking about H's perception of you as the "evil" one for filing, I ask you...why do you give a flying f*ck about his FAULTY perception if you know your own truth? When one stands with full-confidence in their own truth, nothing can knock you over. Don't give away your own personal power. Own it!
'My H suddenly turned a corner and said that he is not immune to the fact that he is bitching about betrayal when he is the one who left, turned my life upside down and took away the future I thought I had. He said he recognizes that we have both been tremendously hurt in the R and he knows he has hurt me a lot, but that doesn't make him less angry about my betrayal.'
Using the STFU and KISS principles, I would have said to H:
"Thank you for sharing this. I can see how you would look at it in that way. I am sorry that you feel this way. It is my wish that you'll find some peace at some point. Hope you have a good evening."
This way, H will have ZERO ammo to counter you. You're validating him, yet not agreeing with him. Nothing about explaining your view or defending yourself. See?
Thank you, Wonka. Seriously. I hope you will keep reading my thread and giving me 2x4s, because I swear, it's not that I'm TRYING to be a dumb ass. It is just taking me a while to really get it. (Usually I am pretty quick on the uptake, but this is really testing me for some reason.)
Dusting myself off, ready for the next chance.
Bring it!
My grandmother is now happily settled in her recliner watching the Antiques Roadshow. So am swinging by....
No problem, sweetie! As for your comment about being a dumbass....could've fooled me. Makes it the two of us.
Have a pleasant and restful night. Goodness knows, you certainly need it tonight!
M,
Today is a NEW day! Make it however you want...and fall in love with yourself. You're pretty special.
Thank you, Wonka!! Your post made my day!
Onward and upward!
Melissa, you can only be on his roller coaster if you buy the ticket. Trite but true. You've said repeatedly you just want him to leave you alone and then you continue to engage.
Stop.
Read ad's posts again.
I see almost nothing that your H has written that sounds hateful. But I read it without the emotion you have attached to it. What would happen if you could let that go.
"Why did you betray my trust by hiring the most aggressive D lawyer in town to file a petition without telling me about it first?" I can say that if my H had hired the most aggressive D lawyer in town, I would probably ask or at least think, the same thing.
I would guess you'll come back with, "But, I know my H" and that's true but we keep hearing about the 2 sides of your H, how do you know read his individual text messages as being from the good H or the evil H? All the emotion and interpretation is coming from you.
Disengage. Buy a case of STFU.
Bug, you are right. I need to not engage my H. How do I do that when he is texting me about the kids? I guess the best I can do is just ignore the emotional part and answer the practical part (if there is one)?
I didn't hire the most aggressive D attorney in town. (My H likes to exaggerate to "make a point.")
I understand what you are saying, Bug, about interpretation, but in this particular case, my H acknowledged (and defended, and blamed on me) that he is purposely being hateful in his communications with me.
I will guzzle a big ol' can of STFU every morning from now on.
I have copied Ad's posts into my notes on my phone - I've read them many times and find that I am not in a place to really digest, but I am hoping they will click with me at some point.
Sweet Melissa...(do you know that Allman Bros song? I always think of it when I'm reading your thread. Wonderful memories.)
Anyway...
"I didn't hire the most aggressive D attorney in town. (My H likes to exaggerate to "make a point.")"
Thanks for the correction but does it matter?
I'll go back and reread your posts to see what I missed. But again, does it matter if he's being hateful? It won't when you have control of you. Throughout our lives people aren't going to treat us just the way we want them too. But we have a choice as to how we treat people and exercising that choice can improve our lives tremendously.
Again, read Ad's post, it's the heart of this.
Honest question Melissa (I am 99% sure I know the answer). If your H wanted to cancel everything and get back together with you right now, would you?
One thing about this site is after you have been through this, you can read other people's sitch. You see things, because you have been through it, that they don't. A lot of the time, they see their spouse for what they really are and want nothing to do with them. Most everyone on here, if they read their own threads from start to finish, will see such a change in their views on their spouse and life in general. It's amazing how comfortable we can become in situations that aren't exactly happy. We cling to the past because the future is just so scary. As we look back at our life with our new eyes/perspective, how many people would choose to live like they did?
I think I just went off on a tangent! LOL
Brian
Bug, you are right. I need to not engage my H. How do I do that when he is
That's just it. You need to do what YOU do regardless of what he does...knowing what he might do...fearing how what he does will make you feel. He is not MAKING you do or feel anything by his texting, wording, discussions with your D at night. You are choosing certain thoughts about him that are driving your feelings all over the place.
You think it's not in your control because you're not used to controlling your emotions with regard to him. That doesn't make it impossible. It's not easy but it requires taking the blame off him and letting him be however he's going to be.
You are not required to engage him.
Also, you mentioned that
He really gets me with this "I'll just assume terrible things about you if you don't talk to me" thing. Why the HELL do I fall for that? That's ridiculous. (Both are ridiculous - the fact that he does it and the fact that I fall for it.)
It's not ridiculous at all that he does that. He knows what works with you.
See any 180s you can work on?
I'll have to look up the Allman Bros. song!
I know I'm being a moron right now . . . I really am trying not to.
I am hoping that with more detachment, I can get this stuff and put it to work for me.
I don't think I posted much of H's hateful crap. A lot of it is the scowling, glaring, the tone of voice he uses when he speaks to me. The texts about the kids or the finances or whatever business is at hand are (since I filed) often laced with biting sarcasm and snide remarks. Usually not outright offensive, but more in a P/A way.
I know it's not the "correct" answer to your question, but right now my answer is - Yes! It does matter that my H is being hateful. I will say I am starting to see how I have always allowed him to manipulate my emotions like this, though. And I know I need to stop, because he isn't going to no matter how much I blame him.
I'm not trying to debate your point - I know it is valid. I'm just being honest that right now I am still in emotional idiot mode and find myself wanting to blame my H because I am not sure I can overcome my emotions enough to really take control in this way. I'm working on it.
I do reread my threads and particular posts . . . I know I have a lot yet to do and learn. Sometimes it comes later rather than sooner.
Brian, up until about 4-6 weeks ago, I think I would have taken my H back, unconditionally, if he wanted to come back.
Thank goodness he didn't come back during that time.
Now I see things more clearly, and that ship has sailed.
Do I still want things to work out with my H? Yes. I do. But I can see that won't happen without a lot of IC for him ( and continued IC for me) and MC for both of us. And that is not what he is interested in.
If he were to say, "let's cancel the whole thing" right now, there would be a lot of conditions for me to say yes.
You think it's not in your control because you're not used to controlling your emotions with regard to him. That doesn't make it impossible. It's not easy but it requires taking the blame off him and letting him be however he's going to be.
Yes. You are right. This makes sense. Intellectually, now, I get it. Now the hard part - applying it.
It's not ridiculous at all that he does that. He knows what works with you.
I need to stop allowing that to work with me.
See any 180s you can work on?
I sure do. Thank you for this post, Ad.
Hey Melissa,
I hope you can see all these gems for what they are - good advice. Detaching is the ONLY way you're going to get there. If you have to, put a rubber band on your wrist and yank it when you're tempted to engage with him. This man has known you for a long time, and knows full well what buttons he can push.
If you can't wear a rubber band, why not frame him as your most annoying client? I'm pretty sure at work you'd not allow someone to needle you like he does. So treat him like that - engage only on the topics that need to be discussed (the kids) and just leave him be with his emotions.
I truly believe that he's just plain mad YOU pulled the trigger first. My guess is that he never imagined you'd call his bluff and get sick of his crap first. Betrayed? Laughable. As someone told me here a long time ago, stop expecting this cat to bark! (Great visual if you can visualize that.)
You're getting some great advice, and all of it is spot on.
Take care-
Betsey
I would really like to see you stop insulting yourself Mel.
You're not a moron, and claiming to be one doesn't give you a pass. No one here's a moron, and this stuff is hard to learn but necessary. I know you don't think you're a moron, and you're trying to be cute. Please just square your shoulders and start practicing basic skills of detachment.
I suggest this to a lot of people. If you can get your hands on a copy of Pia Mellody's CD set on Boundaries, there's a great visual of how you have a conversation with someone where you keep your identity intact regardless of what the other person is spewing. That helped me a lot, and I think it would help you.
Skill #1 to try, just as one step. When he emails you something, look for the nugget of relevant information and evaluate the rest for whether you need to learn something from it or disregard it. And when you successfully disregard the useless or incorrect part and go on with your day, celebrate that. Record it or journal it somehow to reinforce your learning.
Honestly, I have no desire to get annoyed by everything my H does. And I agree, I think it is gross when people make rude remarks about their exes.
Right now,I just want him to leave me alone. He goes from super nice to cruel to rude to manipulative back to nice in a matter of 24 hours, and I am having a lot of trouble managing my own thoughts and emotions if I follow along.
I find that if I allow myself to see him as a genuinely nice person, I just get emotionally slammed the next day or hour when he spits his hate and blame at me. And I feel like I am once again on the H roller coaster.
2 quick thoughts...why not see YOURSELF as a "genuinely nice person" and go where that leads you? (away from any focus on HIM for one), and b/c you are a genuinely nice person, you won't react to every thing he says or does...
Also, our d16 is going thru a tough time (depression and anxiety beyond what seems "normal" even for a 16 y/o)
PART of it is related to unresolved issues she has with her dad, my h, for "ignoring her for 2 years", which is what SHE believes happened when we sep. (ouch) I am pulling her out of high school and we are doing "independent study" which
seems to mean I'm homeschooling her but she gets to play varsity basketball.... b/c it is that scary to us/me.
Her therapist suggested, among other things, watching some TED Talks. I watched them with her and got a lot out of them myself.
So I pass them on, to you. From the 2012 series of TED, Amy Cuddy (How our body shapes US) and Scott Achor (positive psychology) both discuss over lapping topics. They're more than the standard "power of positive thinking/The Secret/Laws of attraction, which all seem to repeat old adages with new age language that some people find revolutionary...but have been around for a long LONG time...but I digress...
But it's about how WE see ourselves and how WE can change that, AND change our own behaviors,
and
how to become the new improved, by DOING and SAYING certain things and how even our posture affects how WE see ourselves (we always knew it affected how others saw us, but the research (thorough!)
is showing a lot of external, 'outside in' changes are possible
within us.Very fascinating and worth watching...Netflix had it but maybe youtube does too, if you don't have Netflix...
more later...
A couple of thoughts, the belittling of yourself, why do you think you do that, what are you protecting?
That was one of my self-preservation mechanisms, I wanted to take the first "hit" at myself. It was preemptive, if I belittled myself or judged myself harshly, I wouldn't be judged by others because I beat them to it. Remember that harsh judge I hear in your posts?
About dealing with your H, when he says something that gets you in the chest or the gut or the head, and you start to tighten up, stop. Picture your H with a fishing rod with line and a hook.
You can take that hook or not.
Some wise words from Anthony DeMello
“People mistakenly assume that their thinking is done by their head; it is actually done by the heart which first dictates the conclusion, then commands the head to provide the reasoning that will defend it.”
― Anthony de Mello
I'm smiling at this text from H:
"Why did you betray my trust by hiring the most aggressive D lawyer in town to file a petition without telling me about it first?"
He's really mad that you've pulled the rug out from under his feet because you've one upped him in this area in protecting your intersts. This suggests that there's a real underlying fear that he'll NOT be able to control the outcome of the D proceedings in his favor. Hmmmmm. He hates losing control of this process. So he is shifting the blame on to you. Isn't that interesting?
melissa, your H had all of this planned out in his head, and you deviating from that plan is throwing him completely out of whack. He can't stand not being in control. He had this perfect exit strategy worked out, only now you aren't playing along.
Have you seen the movie "The Waterboy" recently? Do what Coach Klein does in the Championship game at the end. Picture your husband's ridiculous antics for what they are: the inexcusable temper tantrums of a child. Treat him like you would a child.
And for the love of Pete, detach from him AND this situation. If you have to go dark for a few days to help kick-start things, do it. Because what he says and does
doesn't affect you. He is acting like a crazy person! Why would you let a crazy person...an irrational, temper-throwing child get to you? Pffft.
-PM
Just a little journaling . . . .
I made an interesting discovery today.
A few months ago, when I was still quite a mess with my sitch, I went to breakfast with my FIL and SMIL, without H or kids or anyone. I don't think I have ever spent any time with them alone before then, and my H had not only had many negative things to say about them, but also made it clear that they didn't like me, so this was a nerve wracking thing for me. With the help of PM and some others here, I was able to go into it with open heart and open mind, and I was surprised by the outcome. We had a lovely time. Before BD, I think I would have found an excuse not to go with them, or I would have gone in with fists up, ready to defend.
What I took from that was good, but still very narrow. I think what I took from it was that I needed to stop seeing them through my H's eyes, and to show them the real me without the defenses up.
Anyway. I am taking a class now that meets weekly and is about self empowerment - really for women in transition of some sort. Some are getting D, some are dealing with death of their parents or other loved ones, some have children who are leaving for college, or are starting a new career . . . you get the idea.
So one of the things we are doing is, each week, we draw a name out of a hat and get together with another member of the group. I was kind of dreading it this week, going back to to my old way of thinking - "she is 10 years older, she has been married 20 years, her kids are all older than mine, we will have nothing in common, I have so much crap to do, ugh I wish I didn't have to do this."
But I changed my thinking. I thought, who knows, if I go into it with open mind and open heart, maybe it won't be so bad after all.
Well, you'll never guess what happened. We had a great lunch. Even though we are totally different people in different circumstances, we had no shortage of conversation material, and honestly, I think we could have spent the rest of the afternoon chatting.
I realized as I drove away that in my past life, to do "what felt right to me" or "taking care of myself" was usually hiding from things that made me feel even slightly uncomfortable, which meant that I ended up missing out on things that could have been really fun, or enlightening, or even life changing; and connecting with other people.
I don't think that this woman and I will be BFFs, but I would definitely hang out with her again, and I am really grateful for what she taught me today, just by virtue of showing up, being herself, and being open to ME.
Ugh, I feel for you with the constant rollercoaster of H emails. Yuck. You are handling things so well. I like the idea of this class you are taking. Sounds interesting. You are taking all the right steps to heal and move forward. Your H stays in denial.
Way to go melissa!!! I'm so proud of you. I used to do (and sometimes still do) the same thing when it came to being uncomfortable about an upcoming event or situation. Like you, I'm trying to be open to new things and people. I try to say 'Yes' to things. It's hard at first to make that commitment,but generally once you do you're amazed at your initial reluctance.
There are a lot of good people out there.
I just wanted to applaud you for going for it!!
So one of the things we are doing is, each week, we draw a name out of a hat and get together with another member of the group. I was kind of dreading it this week, going back to to my old way of thinking - "she is 10 years older, she has been married 20 years, her kids are all older than mine, we will have nothing in common, I have so much crap to do, ugh I wish I didn't have to do this."
Ah... the story of my life.
I am working on this as well.
I think A LOT of people are like this.
Just a little journaling . . . .
I made an interesting discovery today.
A few months ago, when I was still quite a mess with my sitch, I went to breakfast with my FIL and SMIL, without H or kids or anyone. I don't think I have ever spent any time with them alone before then, and my H had not only had many negative things to say about them, but also made it clear that they didn't like me, so this was a nerve wracking thing for me. With the help of PM and some others here, I was able to go into it with open heart and open mind, and I was surprised by the outcome. We had a lovely time. Before BD, I think I would have found an excuse not to go with them, or I would have gone in with fists up, ready to defend.
What I took from that was good, but still very narrow. I think what I took from it was that I needed to stop seeing them through my H's eyes, and to show them the real me without the defenses up.
Anyway. I am taking a class now that meets weekly and is about self empowerment - really for women in transition of some sort. Some are getting D, some are dealing with death of their parents or other loved ones, some have children who are leaving for college, or are starting a new career . . . you get the idea.
So one of the things we are doing is, each week, we draw a name out of a hat and get together with another member of the group. I was kind of dreading it this week, going back to to my old way of thinking - "she is 10 years older, she has been married 20 years, her kids are all older than mine, we will have nothing in common, I have so much crap to do, ugh I wish I didn't have to do this."
But I changed my thinking. I thought, who knows, if I go into it with open mind and open heart, maybe it won't be so bad after all.
Well, you'll never guess what happened. We had a great lunch. Even though we are totally different people in different circumstances, we had no shortage of conversation material, and honestly, I think we could have spent the rest of the afternoon chatting.
I realized as I drove away that in my past life, to do "what felt right to me" or "taking care of myself" was usually hiding from things that made me feel even slightly uncomfortable, which meant that I ended up missing out on things that could have been really fun, or enlightening, or even life changing; and connecting with other people.
I don't think that this woman and I will be BFFs, but I would definitely hang out with her again, and I am really grateful for what she taught me today, just by virtue of showing up, being herself, and being open to ME.
Isn't it amazing what can happen when we decide to let the past and all of our preconceived BS go?
I hope you can let this discovery ripple out into all your Rs.
Don't let your past dictate your future.
You can do this.
I'll have to look up the Allman Bros. song!
I echo Ms. Bug. Great song. Great band.
-PM
...and also what she said about not letting your past dictate your future. You now have several examples of this actually working for you in practice. That's AWESOME! Keep building on that! You are on the right track and doing great!
-PM
I think what you did was great. That sounds like a great activity in that group too. I used to pre plan the outcome of a lot of things . Out of fear. I just do them now even if they make me uncomfortable. They end up being things I would have regret NOT to do.
I'm reading to my d6's class today. I have ridiculous stage fright, even in front of 6 year olds. I cannot have focus on me:). But I'm going in, reading and will enjoy it while my d loves to have me around.
I had fear of having D6's friends over to play. I have a small place, I'm the divorced one, I had many preconceived notions of judgment I might get. Guess what. Her friends had a ball, her parents were glad they were having such a good time and didn't even realize how late it was before they came ( I am moving in March to a house). But I finally got over my fear. And it couldn't have gone better.
I was very controlled by fear. And I was controlled by my Ex's criticisms, and the opinions of the things I wanted to try. Which, by the description of your h may play a role in your fears and preconceived notions.
And there is something about divorce that bonds generation. When h left, some of the older women divorced women I wasn't very close with, although friendly, took me aside and told me their stories. They offered support, love and understanding, even though they were in their 50's and I was in my 20's.
Drop all your pre conceived notions at the door and you end up being pleasantly surprised.
I should have read this before I posted.
Great strong post, Gineen. You are tearing it up, you've come so far.
Thanks, guys!
Gineen, I know how you feel about not wanting to the be the center of attention. I am sure you will do great reading to your D's class, and she will love it!! I was the Girl Scout leader for my D's troop (23 girls ages 5-9) for two years, and every meeting, I would get nervous. In front of a bunch of little girls! I never did get over it . . . but the key is to just do it anyway, I guess, right? So good for you for going for it today!
I truly did allow myself to be controlled by fear for many years. I thought I had dropped that months ago, but I realize I am still doing it in many ways that weren't that obvious . . . where I had to dissect what I was doing/thinking to figure out that this was in fact the problem.
Yes, I do think that my H's criticisms played into this some. Actually, it wasn't so much that my H would criticize me, it was more that he wouldn't seem interested or impressed or proud of me or really anything positive. So I took that as a negative, I guess. I allowed his lack of enthusiasm to diminish my pride or happiness in the things I did.
Speaking of fear, and back to the recent conversation about how I am letting my desire for my H to like me or think I am nice govern my actions . . .
I am ordering a new car because my current lease is up next week. I have to give the dealer a $1000 deposit to order the car. Some of you may remember that my H went out of his way to remind me that I need to let him know if I am planning to buy a new car, pursuant to the injunction in place (requiring notice of proposed extraordinary expenditures). (As an aside, I don't think he read the injunction very carefully.) I asked my lawyer if it was OK to order this car, and whether I need to tell my H about it in advance, if I need his consent, etc. He said "Just put down the deposit and I'll let H's lawyer know at some point." He also said H should be happy that my payments on the new car will be lower than my current payments.
Soooo, of course I thought, "oh no, my H is going to be pissed off if I do it and don't tell him. Especially since he made sure to remind me to tell him"
But here is what I decided. I am just going to listen to my L. If my H gets mad, so be it. I know I am not doing anything wrong.
I am not feeling too strong about this at the moment, but I am going to do it anyway, and hopefully it will make me feel stronger!!
you are doing great. its good to see how you are thinking these things through and recognizing how you feel.
But here is what I decided. I am just going to listen to my L. If my H gets mad, so be it. I know I am not doing anything wrong.
Good plan! Didn't your H buy a new car without telling you? My guess is that he will claim that was before the injunction. Your H knows that your lease is up and that you were looking for cars. I am sure that he does not expect you to go without a car. Just keep moving forward and let your L deal with any consequences.
I feel for you though. My H definitely holds a double standard when it comes to spending. He has no problem buying things (expensive things) on his own terms. My H got annoyed when we purchased a minivan because we could not fit all of the kids in the cars that we had. He always brought it up in arguments that I always demanded the best, which is so not true. I actually could care less about cars and just wanted something reliable. And guess what, my H is planning to get a new luxury car this spring. He says that he needs a luxury car to impress clients (and boost his ego). He does not even realize that he is a huge hypocrite because of his ridiculous justifications.
So the big question of the day....did you decide on an SUV or convertible??
Yes, my H bought a new car even though we had agreed to discuss any big expenditures before making them. And yes, he will say that was before the injunction, so he wasn't legally required to. (Of course, I wasn't legally required to tell him I was filing, either, but he considers that the betrayal of the century.)
Anyway. enough about him.
Drum roll please . . . convertible!
I am soooo excited. I owned three different convertibles before my S7 was born, at which point they had to pry it out of my hands in favor of an SUV.
I think my kids are old enough now to ride in a convertible, and they are excited to. If I ever need a bigger car to shlep something, I can borrow one of my parents' cars (they have three), and I can always get a driver to the airport - it's usually cheaper than parking there anyway.
And I get to feel the sun on my head and the wind through my hair . . . ooohhhh, I can't wait. Putting the top down makes me so happy. I used to drive with the top down in 32 degrees (if it was sunny), with the seat heater on; and I'll do it again. (My new one will have a neck warmer!) Yippeee!
So jealous! Good for you M
sounds nice...can I come for a ride???
Good for you, Melissa! Colorado is a great place to drive the right kind of convertibles. I sold my D20's last year because hers was a soft top and upstate NY was not a good place for her to bring it. We loved it, and so will you. There are some really cute ones out there...
So, your post last night. I think many of us here operated in the dark blindly, sticking to our scripts and routines without questioning them. I can say without reservation that going through my D gave me the license to question everything. It was kind of a metamorphosis, so to speak. So much so that I named my cat Butterfly. She is a daily reminder that I need to be happy with what I have and not who I am.
One book literally forced me to do the work. I might have mentioned it to you earlier (I can't remember jack these days). But the author is Susan Jeffers, and the book is Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. There are exercises to help you with the process. To sum it up, basically you pretty much do a 180 on stuff! It's definitely scary and getting out of worn, useless scripts feels uncomfortable. But if you commit to the process, you'll grow leaps and bounds. I'm not saying that your bucket list should include car jacking or armed robbery, but just throwing out your current scripts and creating new ones.
Good for you!
It's a little chilly for the convertible today, but I'd probably do it for posterity's sake anyway. Do it!
Betsey
Hi Melissa, thanks for the support on my thread. I went back and read your very first post, seems our marriages were very similar. Main difference is my H has been working over seas for the past 6 years. Happy to see how strong you have become!
J
The age issue among us ("they don't understand people MY age...") is an interesting one.
turns out I live within 2 hours of half a dozen DB ladies, and we've met. (There's a 25 year age spread among us. Some were never legally married, a few are gay, and only half of us have kids).
YET we meet for dinner and we always talk for hours and hours. It has been a tremendously rewarding experience to connect with each other.
There is a commonality to this type of pain and committed love.
There is a universal bond among us, and it turns out that the bond formed at deep levels, makes the other differences seem pretty superficial.
M,
How are you feeling today? Keeping an eye out for ya.
You seem to be moving closer to finding your inner strength quite nicely.
W, thanks for checking on me!
Hope your grandma is doing well!
I am feeling pretty good! I've been busy but also just doing some thinking. Lots of stuff on this thread to ponder . . . I am not ignoring it, just need time to mull.
I am really excited about my new car, and I am even more excited because I realized that I am starting to be able to be excited about things without adding the "but" on the end.
Like, when I went and bought new bedroom furniture back when H moved out - something I would have normally been super excited about - I thought, ugh. I don't care about this stupid furniture. I'd much rather have my H back. Or when I took the kids to the theater - I wished my H was there. And I have done that with a zillion things since then, big and small.
Finally, I am getting to a point where I don't do it (as much). I am just plain excited about my car. My excitement is not marred by my marital situation.
My H has been quiet for a couple days, which is nice. He will be out of town this weekend, and my kids have a three day weekend, so I am looking forward to spending the time with them, without having to deal with my H. And next weekend, I am taking the kids to VA to be with my brother, SIL and their girls. I am really looking forward to it, and (hopefully) it'll be another H-free weekend.
I know sh!t is going to hit the fan once this D process gets going, so I am trying to enjoy the calm while it lasts.
so, what car did you choose? And if you have not yet -- must I be the wet blanket that mentions Rocky Mountains...and convertibles...seem like a wacky combo...??
I'll also confess that WE needed another car and I chose a sports car I have long admired, which has a backseat (technically) and our only child at home was d16, then d12, & she fit into it fine!
But as time passed it did feel a bit cramped and I could not take her AND friends anywhere. I still have it, and it only came in red at that time..
.
um, nothing MLC about that...Either way, ENJOY the car. My h isn't someone who cared much what he drove as long as it worked (and as long as it wasn't on fire, it "worked".
But I'm someone who DOES enjoy the act of driving, and so it's a quality of life thing for me. Not enough to go broke, buying a depreciating asset that costs way too much.
But something reliable, with some flair, is so sweet, looks great and drives beautifully!
Me likey! 
Yay for the convertable!!
I'm glad that you're enjoying some momentary peace. I guess we have to take it when we can.
so, what car did you choose? And if you have not yet -- must I be the wet blanket that mentions Rocky Mountains...and convertibles...seem like a wacky combo...??
Ah, I see you are not too familiar with my fine city, and our 300 days of dazzling sunshine a year. Sure, some of those days are 12 degrees, but whatever. That's what seat heaters are for.
Tonight it is 15 degrees and snowing, but yesterday we had 65 degrees and brilliant sunshine. Denver is probably the best four-season city to drive a convertible. We rarely have the east coast gloom (and never that dastardly humidity) or west coast smog.
I figure I am in my car every day, usually many times in a day, so I ought to enjoy it. And there is no way I am getting red - I'm getting a tattoo on my lower back instead.
So my H texted me again tonight (see, I spoke too soon about him being quiet) to ask me (in perfectly friendly fashion at least) for my January Amex statement. On one hand, I feel like I should give it to him. After all, it's marital money I am spending. On the other hand, I don't ask him for an accounting of what he is spending since we S, and he went and bought a car of all things with not a word to me about it. The real reason I don't want to give it to him is because he has already bitched about how high the bill was, and though I don't have anything to hide and didn't do anything wrong, I am concerned he is going to start bitching about each thing and questioning me about it.
For background, my H has never been involved in the finances. This is why it seemed we worked so well together. He is not terribly responsible or organized, and I am. He is tall and strong, and I am short and scrawny. So he did all the things that required height or brute strength, and I did all the things that required planning or organization.
Anyway, we would talk about money every few months, but it was mainly to make sure we weren't digging into savings with our spending, and to make sure we would have enough (according to our wealth management guy's plan) to put into our retirement accounts at the end of the year.
So he is going to plotz when we start getting into financial stuff and he sees that he has to pay me maintenance so I can continue getting my mani pedis, and buying more shoes than I need, and highlighting my hair . . . .
Anyway. I'm not sure whether to just send it to him or wait until I have my lawyer there to shield me from the rotten tomatoes.
I guess I could send it and just send a Wonka-esque response if he bitches. "I am sorry you are upset about this. Have a nice evening."
Or I could ignore him or say no, and send the response when he bitches about that.
Hmm.
I am laughing at the "Wonka-esque" response. Love your humor, M!
The age issue among us ("they don't understand people MY age...") is an interesting one.
turns out I live within 2 hours of half a dozen DB ladies, and we've met. (There's a 25 year age spread among us. Some were never legally married, a few are gay, and only half of us have kids).
YET we meet for dinner and we always talk for hours and hours. It has been a tremendously rewarding experience to connect with each other.
There is a commonality to this type of pain and committed love.
There is a universal bond among us, and it turns out that the bond formed at deep levels, makes the other differences seem pretty superficial.
Like button!
That's what seat heaters are for.
LOL! I have a bright red Mustang GT convertible that I bought (special ordered) new in 07, it was my daily driver until about a year ago when I bought an SUV since I didn't have access to W's van anymore. Now the Mustang only comes out on the weekends! And yes, those seat heaters are great for top-down driving in cold weather. Texas gets bloody hot in the summer, but I still crank the A/C on and drop the top then too
I LOVE convertibles! Love my motorcycles too, even less around you when going down the road
25, I wish I could come to one of your DB dinners . . . assuming there are drinks, too, of course.
I think that even without the bond of getting D, there is still a commonality among most women. It was interesting for me to see that this woman I had lunch with was really the same deep down. I think we all want the same things, have the same fears (at their core), and just want to feel connected. I think I judge people way too much and it's on my list of things to change about myself.
Thought of the day . . . in reading other people's threads over the past few days (and especially the posts by 25), it occurred to me that I am not doing much DBing, at least not as it relates to my H. Or maybe I just need to read the book again.
I am still working on me and GALing, but I feel like I have moved into more of a defensive mode with him right now. I am thinking about how I communicate with him, and how to improve that, but it all seems defensive.
I'm not sure where I am with all this. I would say I am done with this M and with my H, the way he is. But I guess I am still "standing" in the sense that (I think) I would be willing to make things work with him if the conditions were right. However, I have very little hope of that ever happening (I would give it .00001%, honestly).
Just not sure of my direction right now . . . or maybe I just need to be focusing on moving forward and getting through this legal process in one piece.
What is bugging me is that I feel like I have moved back toward where I was with H during the last months of our M . . . looking for things wrong with H, the things he says and does, etc. I think something in me tells me that since he is being selfish and doesn't give a crap about or appreciate me, it feels like if I treat him kindly in the face of the way he treats me, I am letting him off the hook or giving him something he doesn't deserve.
"..... it feels like if I treat him kindly in the face of the way he treats me, I am letting him off the hook or giving him something he doesn't deserve."
Does be kind anyway work in this case?
I guess I don't mean kindly. I mean . . . for the first several months, I was close to LRT mode, and DBing meant basically putting H's needs, feelings, desires, etc. first. Not just first, but really only.
I don't feel like that serves me anymore.
so, what car did you choose? And if you have not yet -- must I be the wet blanket that mentions Rocky Mountains...and convertibles...seem like a wacky combo...??
Ah, I see you are not too familiar with my fine city, and our 300 days of dazzling sunshine a year. Sure, some of those days are 12 degrees, but whatever. That's what seat heaters are for.
Tonight it is 15 degrees and snowing, but yesterday we had 65 degrees and brilliant sunshine. Denver is probably the best four-season city to drive a convertible. We rarely have the east coast gloom (and never that dastardly humidity) or
west coast smog.
What smog? Pffft!
(SERIOUSLY, It really IS better!) and no 15'F weather either. Don't forget, I actually did live in Alaska...Uh oh, that reminds me... I took a vow never to complain about weather again as long as I live in the lower 48, so maybe I can't even mock you for having a convertible there. 
...BUT there are sports cars that are not convertibles. (!!) Hard tops are a tad better in roll overs, but who said you'd roll over?? (Get it?? "roll over"???)
And what about your hair in a convertible? Looking professional and all... And the toys your youngest WILL throw out the window, and then cry about, hmmm??
OKAY I'm done with my closed sports car over a convertible, whining...it's your choice (but don't come crying to ME when your hair has your kid's candy swirled in it, b/c I cannot be responsible for your wind problems!)
I figure I am in my car every day, usually many times in a day, so I ought to enjoy it.
Of course!
And there is no way I am getting red - I'm getting a tattoo on my lower back instead.
interesting trade off...how low on the "back"?
Red cars DO get you more noticed by police...way too much. But when it's washed and shiny, I'm very happy with it. 
I never want to lend it to my d16, as It's small for her if she were to be in an accident (& I would be sad for the car too).
Our son, then 17, wrecked a car of ours back in his day, but he walked away from a 40 mph collision so I didn't mind a bit. I remember shaking when I saw the car and did not yet see him....The car was a Mercedes but it had been a real lemon. But also a tank.....Seeing the car totaled but him walking, really hit me.
So my H texted me again tonight (see, I spoke too soon about him being quiet) to ask me (in perfectly friendly fashion at least) for my January Amex statement. On one hand, I feel like I should give it to him. After all, it's marital money I am spending.
On the other hand, I don't ask him for an accounting of what he is spending since we S, and he went and bought a car of all things with not a word to me about it. The real reason I don't want to give it to him is because he has already bitched about how high the bill was, and though I don't have anything to hide and didn't do anything wrong, I am concerned he is going to start bitching about each thing and questioning me about it.
For background, my H has never been involved in the finances. This is why it seemed we worked so well together. He is not terribly responsible or organized, and I am. He is tall and strong, and I am short and scrawny. So he did all the things that required height or brute strength, and I did all the things that required planning or organization.
Anyway, we would talk about money every few months, but it was mainly to make sure we weren't digging into savings with our spending, and to make sure we would have enough (according to our wealth management guy's plan) to put into our retirement accounts at the end of the year.
So he is going to plotz when we start getting into financial stuff and he sees that he has to pay me maintenance so I can continue getting my mani pedis, and buying more shoes than I need, and highlighting my hair . . . .
Anyway.
I'm not sure whether to just send it to him or wait until I have my lawyer there to shield me from the rotten tomatoes.
^^ my fav option. That's what we get the big bucks for, rotten tomatoes and constant lawyer "jokes"...(not really jokes, just true stories/insults)...
I guess I could send it and just send a Wonka-esque response if he bitches. "I am sorry you are upset about this. Have a nice evening."
Or
I could ignore him or say no, and send the response when he bitches about that.
This^^ option increases the chances of a problem arising. We can at least not increase our problems right?
Hmm.
Can you pretend that you think he's getting fearful, and that he doesn't really want the bill itself so much as he wants reassurance that you are not "out to get him"?
That way you can come off reassuring and kind, without actually sending it to him...
OR
Can you ask him why he needs this now? I mean, did his L ask for it? Where should you send it?
You could say "H, does your L need it, or do you? I hesitate to send this b/c I know the finances seem to make you nervous/angry and it feels unfair to me.
I mean, you did blast me recently for suggesting a car purchase, when you yourself had purchased a car while not mentioning it to me, and you truly seemed not to notice a double standard. I assume you had not noticed that what I'm buying will cost us LESS, not more. You were still angry, which is simply too ironic for me to handle under the circumstances.
I want to reassure you that I'm not racking up HIGHER bills or wasting money and I never have. (Say that only if it's true)....
" I'm not going to do anything careless or punitive (or anything HE wouldn't do...).
I know we're trying to get ahold of our finances...so you don't need to worry about it,
(be HAPPY!)
What is bugging me is that I feel like I have moved back toward where I was with H during the last months of our M . . . looking for things wrong with H, the things he says and does, etc. I think something in me tells me that since he is being selfish and doesn't give a crap about or appreciate me, it feels like if I treat him kindly in the face of the way he treats me, I am letting him off the hook or giving him something he doesn't deserve.
I think that you have to ask yourself the following question: In five years when you look back at this time in your life, what will make you proud/happy. Do you want to look back and think "I was true to myself and acted with kindness, grace and dignity in the face of anger and hate and ridiculous accusations, while still protecting myself and the kids." Or, do you want to look back and think "I acted in a matter that was not necessarily true to myself, but I did not let my h off the hook and give him something that he doesn't deserve."
I know based upon reading your posts, that it is not in your nature to be rude and angry. I could be wrong, but I honestly believe that you want to look back on this journey and believe that you took the high road, even when your H did not deserve it. Now I dont think that means that you have to be over the top kind, or take his verbal beatings or agree with everything that he says. I think that you can validate when needed or set him straight when needed. I don't think that you want to stoop to your H's level to prove a point that he does not deserve your kindness.
And I think that it is ok to remind yourself of your H's faults at the moment. It helps to take him off the pedestal that he was on for a while. Just dont completely rewrite your history.
25, I wish I could come to one of your DB dinners . . . assuming
there are drinks, too, of course.
You can, and there are!I think that even without the bond of getting D, there is still a commonality among most women. It was interesting for me to see that this woman I had lunch with was really the same deep down. I think we all want the same things, have the same fears (at their core), and just want to feel connected.
I think I judge people way too much and it's on my list of things to change about myself.
Amen. I did the same thing. (Maybe it's a lawyer deal). I often felt that I could predict a lot about a client by how they carry themselves and what they wear, etc. Which was often true (& shows who you can and cannot put on the witness stand).
But the written word is not the strength of many people, so it's very hard to tell much, here. I have often been surprised by a person's appearance after "knowing" them here for awhile.
But that workshop I have mentioned to you before, ("EE" in Philadelphia) was the turning point for me, b/c i recall being next to a woman phone operator (it was awhile ago!!) I judged people by their jobs or educational levels (turns out I inherited a snobbish streak aimed at education. IF you didn't go to college, I assumed you would be a client or just someone I"d have nothing in common with.
I did not even articulate it, but I had the belief that she would not have much interesting stuff to say or offer me. But I was way off.
Her heart had been broken badly. I SO related. She cut to the chase when she asked:
"If I'm such a wonderful special woman, why is the person I love the most in the world, leaving ME?"
Kind of sums up the crux of the problem for many of us.
Thought of the day . . . in reading other people's threads over the past few days (and especially the posts by 25), it occurred to me that I am not doing much DBing, at least not as it relates to my H. Or maybe I just need to read the book again.
I am still working on me and GALing, but I feel like I have moved into more of a defensive mode with him right now. I am thinking about how I communicate with him, and how to improve that, but it all seems defensive.
I'm not sure where I am with all this. I would say I am done with this M and with my H, the way he is. But I guess I am still "standing" in the sense that (I think) I would be willing to make things work with him if the conditions were right. However, I have very little hope of that ever happening
(I would give it .00001%, honestly).
Not to compete in math, (b/c I'll lose) but I gave my m a 10% in 2006...just saying...and YES I want to hear about your GAL and 180s, not all have to relate to your h, as you see herein. You can do 180s YOU want to do anyhow...Just not sure of my direction right now . . .
or maybe I just need to be focusing on moving forward and getting through this legal process in one piece.
I see the inherent ambiguity here^^, but you CAN GAL and get thru the legal maze, simultaneously. There is some compartmentalizing we have to do, but that's not all bad. At times it's pretty crucial.What is bugging me is that I feel like I have moved back toward where I was with H during the last months of our M . . .
looking for things wrong with H, the things he says and does, etc. I think something in me tells me that since he is being selfish and doesn't give a crap about or appreciate me, it feels like if I treat him kindly in the face of the way he treats me, I am letting him off the hook or giving him something he doesn't deserve.
Don't play judge/jury/executioner with him. It's not your place. Never was, even while married (especially while married, actually).
You are to determine what is best for YOU/Kids, like a jury might add up damages, but without emotion...not easy, I know.
So when you find yourself putting on the judge robes, take them back off.
It's not your job to judge him, fix him, or perfect him. Besides, you don't want to ignore your own work.
Stay in your sandbox and do YOUR thing.
Stay in your sandbox and do YOUR thing.
I love this! I repeat it often to myself and laugh at the image on myself playing in a tiny sandbox.
Ahhh, nice topic du jour, ladies.
Before I go on, 25, I just gotta reply to the car thing. I've owned 2 convertibles and 2 sports cars (one each in Colorado), and it's a great state for both! My XH has had a motorcycle in both CA and CO and loves riding in both states equally. While my convertible was ideal for someone who could keep it as a 2nd car and garage kept, it was a lovely car for my D20 to use all through high school. I sold it last year because she's in NY and I don't want to insure 3 cars. I also have an adorable RX-8. It's awesome and I love driving it, but to tell you the truth, I think it's a sh!tty car to drive in the winter. (It has bun warmers and good heat - it's just the rear wheel drive that makes it less than ideal under certain road conditions.) So I personally don't see a downside in the convertible here.
And my very first car was a red convertible Triumph. It will always hold a special place in my heart. I was just fortunate that my dad was a cop.
Now here's the secret that Melissa and I want to keep to ourselves. The media portrays us as sitting in the snow belt with horrific winters. Sure, every once in awhile we do get 'em. So does Tahoe. But most of the time, the weather here is bomdiggity. I say that with vehemence. I grew up in DC, lived in the Bay Area for 3 years and have lived here for more than 20 years. Because we are at a mile high, even if it's 15 outside, the snow starts evaporating immediately. We're second only to San Diego in the number of sunny days per year. Shhhhh. Don't tell anyone.
So, no matter what your H does, Melissa, like Boyz said, you choose how you want to act. Period. In fact, I'm holding myself to the mantra outside of this forum that if I don't like the person I become as a result of choices that others make that affect me, it's still MY choice not to become that person. It's my face I have to stare at every morning in the mirror. In the end, I hold myself accountable to my goal of being able to look back and not regret being different.
It's not to say that I don't entertain evil thoughts or really sarcastic responses. I do. I just don't act on them. With practice, it's much easier. You have to train yourself to put up a stop sign and say to yourself, "Is this getting me closer to my goal?" If the answer is no, you have to train yourself to zip the lip and walk away.
Now, getting back to your reply to your H. I think 25's idea is the balance between the Wonka-esque response and yours. It engages dialogue without invitation for him to criticize. Maybe not validating, but at this point in the game, I guess I wouldn't be as concerned about that. Especially since you're trying to tread water right now. It's difficult to juggle when you're literally trying to swim.
On a happy note, I'm looking at my Starbucks mug and thinking of you - in a positive way. I hope that counts for something? As soon as my Keurig supply arrives via FedEx, I'm going to brew another cup and I'll think of you again. It's all good!
Back to our current programming, already in progress...
Betsey
25, I wish I could come to one of your DB dinners . . . assuming there are drinks, too, of course.
I think that even without the bond of getting D, there is still a commonality among most women. It was interesting for me to see that this woman I had lunch with was really the same deep down. I think we all want the same things, have the same fears (at their core), and just want to feel connected. I think I judge people way too much and it's on my list of things to change about myself.
Thought of the day . . . in reading other people's threads over the past few days (and especially the posts by 25), it occurred to me that I am not doing much DBing, at least not as it relates to my H. Or maybe I just need to read the book again.
I am still working on me and GALing, but I feel like I have moved into more of a defensive mode with him right now. I am thinking about how I communicate with him, and how to improve that, but it all seems defensive.
I'm not sure where I am with all this. I would say I am done with this M and with my H, the way he is. But I guess I am still "standing" in the sense that (I think) I would be willing to make things work with him if the conditions were right. However, I have very little hope of that ever happening (I would give it .00001%, honestly).
Just not sure of my direction right now . . . or maybe I just need to be focusing on moving forward and getting through this legal process in one piece.
What is bugging me is that I feel like I have moved back toward where I was with H during the last months of our M . . . looking for things wrong with H, the things he says and does, etc. I think something in me tells me that since he is being selfish and doesn't give a crap about or appreciate me, it feels like if I treat him kindly in the face of the way he treats me, I am letting him off the hook or giving him something he doesn't deserve.
Mellisa,
I think you can act however you want now that you realize your M is over and that you really don't want it back. The way we treat our Spouse going through this is to not make things worse on the chance that things will work out. With you knowing that won't happen, act how YOU want. If you think he is a selfish SOB, then don't pretend he isn't. If he changes who he is, your opinion can change at that time. DBing worked with you. You came through this a better person and your happy! That's the beauty of this system!
Brian
Melissa, I feel the same thing about moving into a "defensive" position. Maybe that's part of the natural process of DB'ing or not.
We are working on GAL as you mentioned and making that a priority. I honestly think my wife would have filed for divorce (or at least indicated that she was) if I hadn't drawn a line in the sand and made myself GAL. And it's hard to do that AND not be a little defensive. Especially when you are feeling better about yourself. Obviously we don't want that feeling to change.
I'm not sure if that's how you feel but I've found myself in a similar position. Maybe that's part of doing the 180. You learn those rules front & back and you put them into motion. It is implied in those rules that you are no longer on the offensive. So naturally, you are on the defensive. Or in other words, if you are no longer the "pursuer," you are no longer on the "offensive."
M,
Where's the sign-up sheet that I can sign that says it's my turn to ride in your rad new wheels??!!
So my H texted me again tonight (see, I spoke too soon about him being quiet) to ask me (in perfectly friendly fashion at least) for my January Amex statement. Suggested response:
H, okay...that can be arranged. I'll print it out and send it along to you. Where would you like for me to send it to you? Have a nice day-M
Hi guys!!
Just dropped off my deposit for my new car! (Where is that silly cheerleader emotion when I need it?)
And, lest you all think that I am being impractical with my Rocky Mountain/convertible combo, my new car is a hard top AND, drum roll please . . . all wheel drive.
How could I
not buy one??
So, before all your sage advice, I actually went ahead and emailed H the pdf of my January Amex statement. I just said, "here you go," and attached it. (We each have a card on the account, so it is actually our joint statement, but when he calls they will only tell him the total balance and what his account activity was, not mine - because I am the account owner.)
I had asked him the other day why he wanted my Amex statement, and he said because he needed to understand the $XX,000 bill I paid in February. (Except he didn't say it quite that nicely.) Since he saw the amount of the bill, he has made several nasty comments about it, insinuating that I am lying or hiding things from him. I wonder where his "I have to assume the worst if you don't tell me things" imagination took him
Anyway, I decided it was silly not to send it to him, and I would just deal with any rotten tomatoes. (As I was saving it as a pdf, I had to laugh when I saw he just spent another $1000+ on furniture on Monday, and the airfare to WY with the kids last weekend was $700 each.)
A few hours later, I got this response:
Thanks for sending this. It was useful to see that my bill was included in that payment. I thought I had paid it separately. I hope you can understand that an unexplained $XX,000 AMEX bill raised significant concerns on my end.
We do need to be careful with money. This is shaping up to be a pretty good quarter/first six months for [his law firm], so I'm hopeful that the April check will cover some issues.
I would also like to propose sitting down, or exchanging proposals for a resolution with you. If you want to do that with lawyers present or not, I don't really care (although I don't think the expenses is necessary). I don't think there are a lot of issues to fight about. Let me know if you're willing to do this.Huh. No rotten tomatoes. Although I did literally laugh out loud when I read the part about him thinking he had paid his bill separately. He has never in his life paid an Amex bill. (Or any other bill for that matter.)
So, can you guys check me on this? If someone jumps to the worst possible conclusion, and then yells at you for it (when they are wrong), and then, after receiving a perfectly reasonable explanation, demands proof, do you think that, upon learning he was wrong, that person should perhaps apologize???
This was an issue for years. My H doesn't really apologize. Do you see his nonpology here? Surely, M, you can understand why I was such an a-hole, and clearly I was justified.
I'm being serious when I ask, because this M and my H have caused me to question myself sometimes . . . is it unreasonable to think that he could have said, "Oh, I see now. I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions, I just got freaked out and I overreacted"? Or something like that? Because that's what I would really like someone to do. I feel like it's what I would do.
Re: talking about proposals, I am thinking I will reiterate my willingness to listen to whatever he has to say. Quite frankly, I think his proposal will be nowhere close to what I am entitled to - just based on his last proposal. If I do listen to what he has to say, I intend to say and agree to nothing. Or, I could just say, again, that I don't have the information I need to agree to anything.
I am not sure why he is SO adamant about talking just the two of us . . . he is trying to hurry things along, or he thinks that he can show up and give me his best charming smile, and I will just swoon and agree to whatever he wants?
More later - I have to pick up my D9!
Hope everyone has a great evening!
I have to tell you - the amounts of money you talk about are staggering. If I paid an $xx,000 bill, it would be like 5 years of spending...
That being said - what do you expect from him? I'm pretty sure your H is not really holding the bar for an exemplary husband, so what expectations of behavior do you have for him?
Good for you! Your new wheels sound fun AND practical!
The nonpology. Have you read anything about narcissistic behavior? True narcissists deflect shame on to others. I'm not saying to diagnose him or put him in a box, but consider behaviors that might have served a purpose in the past that he is still carrying forward. His current R with you might have triggered some fight or flight instincts...
In the words of our friend, SD, maybe say to yourself, "Isn't that interesting?"
What I find interesting is that your H seems to have some incredibly appalling double standards. He's worried about money, yet he pays $3K/mo for the "dad pad" (for you folks who do not live in Denver, it's a pretty expensive rent) and bought a new car without blinking yet still wants to remind you of your fiscal obligations all the while he moved out? I'd say rotten tomatoes should be flung at him. If he's never paid any of the marital bills thus far, I'm going to assume he knew you were paying them and not some bill pay fairy? (Please give me the name and address of the bill pay fairy, if that's the case.)
Call me jaded (and you'd have every right to say that to me right now), but I am not buying this:
I would also like to propose sitting down, or exchanging proposals for a resolution with you. If you want to do that with lawyers present or not, I don't really care (although I don't think the expenses is necessary). I don't think there are a lot of issues to fight about. Let me know if you're willing to do this.
Au contraire. I think he DOES care that there are lawyers involved. I also think he knows full well that there are a slew of good reasons why you wouldn't do this. And I personally don't think you should sit down with him without representation. Instead, I'd have to say,
"Things are very busy for me personally for the next month with break, our trip to VA and the kids' activities. Why don't you submit your proposal to me via e-mail so I can read when I get some time and consider your thoughts?"
If he views you the way his interactions come across here, he expects you to fight about it. And my best guess is that it's a setup. I don't like it. He seems to know every button to push with you, and if you don't trust yourself enough to make those buttons useless, I'd steer away from interactions that leave you feeling like crap or even worse: guilty.
Coffee is good. My Keurig K-cups arrived so here I am thinking of you.
Betsey
Jon, thanks for your post. I haven't seen any recent posts from you, but the change in your signature didn't get past me. Will be looking for your update soon, hope you are doing OK.
I hope that I didn't offend anyone, and apologize if I did, for talking about large amounts of money. My H makes a good living, but I didn't mean to be insensitive.
What do I expect from my H . . . not much these days. I guess right now all I expect form him is to treat me with common courtesy and respect. Since I filed, he has had a bit of trouble with that. I kind of get it - it is much easier to be kind and gracious when you feel you have the upper hand.
I don't think my H is a bad guy. I think, as someone mentioned a page or two back, that this is just an emotional time - with filing, telling kids, financial matters, etc. So I am hoping to just get through it without too much damage, and see what happens with H after some time has passed and things have settled down some. Right now I don't trust him in the least, and the hurt is still pretty raw for me, but someday perhaps we can be friends again.
M,
So, before all your sage advice, I actually went ahead and emailed H the pdf of my January Amex statement. I just said, "here you go," and attached it.Attagirl!!! I am dancing a happy jig here. I'm one mighty proud gal here...you do see
how KISS makes it so much easier when dealing with H?
I am with Bets on her assessment of H wanting to meet with you on his "proposal" and trying to lasso you into meeting with him without your L. As we've said several times, H is really scared of Ls and is not wanting to cough up some dough to you. Stand firm on this with H. Your L has
your best interests..not the other way around.
Don't ever apologize for your wealth here. It is hard earned and is to be celebrated.
I'm sorry - I didn't mean to imply you were insensitive. My group of friends barely believe me when I tell them W has cost me, to date, about $70,000 in 3 years. Most of them didn't even make $70,000 in the last 3 years!
I agree with Wonka - your response was absolutely perfect. I remember what someone told me when I first started here:
"Don't try to rationalize the irrational - it'll drive you crazy." And I think about that all the time.
Hey M-LOVE the car choice. Fun and practical-my kind of girl
Please don't meet with your H alone. I agree with the others-I just don't feel good about it. And, I like the post where someone (can't remember who) suggested he send you over his proposal and you'll review in your spare time. Turning the tables a bit
I like
New thread time.
melissa - #999