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NEW LIFE / NEW ME - DEPARTURE
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KP, LTH, HWA

Much gratitude! This forum and the people in here seem to be my lifeline.
THANKS!

Originally Posted By: KP

What do you want to do?

Yesterday�s post about declining was what I wanted but reading yours, LTHs and HWAs post gives me the doubts big time. It seems like I am not capable of making the right decision before long after it is supposed to be made.

T1000 once wrote something about this:

Originally Posted By: T1000

I have found that with DB you don't understand the parts you are working on until you have moved through it. That's why taking the vets advice is so important.

This is me! To the point!

Originally Posted By: LTH

It doesn't have to be a traumatic experience

I thought so yesterday, but right now I feel I should trust your judgment more than my own so I will do exactly that!

Originally Posted By: KP

Because it's how you think you should be? Not so fine.

KP, A big part of me still feels like declining but reading you gives me the doubt if the Ds are my real motive or if something is beneath.

Originally Posted By: HWA

Put on something nice and easy, get some things to discuss ready in your head. Get a game out, and try and get the family to play it. Just have fun. Don't mindread or put anything else into it.

HWA, Thanks! Your advice means a lot these days and just reading them makes me once again realize what a MAJOR step you have taken during the past four months.

I have emailed W that dinner will be just fine and I will make something light and easy for them.
I can�t express my gratitude! Thanks for keeping me straight!

Originally Posted By: LTH

See...lots of possibilities - no mindreading F!!!!

I know! And if it was just the wave then fine, but I see a lot of small signs these days and when I add them up it is hard not to start thinking; after all I am unfortunately equipped with my twisted brain�.but there is many small things happening these days.
One more little example I noticed today. Her email from yesterday bagan with �Hey you�. That was very normal before BD. It disappeared when I started LRT and have been totally gone until yesterday.
I am not mindreading that she is warming up � I am just noticing change.
In fact if I should mindread I would properly just say she taking a second run for family time (cake). That proves that I am trying to mindread

I wont act on it though!

I find myself backsliding from focus on me and GAL because of these recent events � need to get back on track right now so I have just called two old friends I haven't seen for a long time and booked coffee with one and dinner with the other. They seemed happy to hear from me

Originally Posted By: Fartiltre

Then she reached for a hug and we parted.

Quote:

I suddenly drove by her and she waved like a crazy.

Quote:

I explained the situation to her and she was kind and solution oriented all the way. This could very well be my fault but no harsh words from her.

^^^These are all great baby steps. Your reaction should be to celebrate them internally and keep up your DB'ing externally. What you've been doing seems to be working, so take a couple of days to reflect on what you've been doing and KEEP DOING THAT!

Quote:

I am attending the thing at D4s kindergarten but what to do about the dinner invitation?

She didn't invite you to a romantic dinner for 2, it's a family thing. Go! Show her how charming you can be! Show her how a great dad engages his D

Quote:

I am not sure what to read in to anything at this moment!

Nothing, drop your expectations!

AS,

Thanks!!! � Thanks for joining in!

I really needed to hear somebody say babysteps!
The problem is that right now I don�t feel like I have done anything at all! I haven�t changed anything!
This could easily be the work of time and patience, her taking a second run on the cake, me loosening up and even my good friend and W talking to her.
I don�t know so I will follow your advice and give this some serious thoughts over the next days and weeks.

Originally Posted By: AS

Nothing, drop your expectations!

I know I have to let them go and also to stop the mindreading � I am very aware of both points but I am equipped with this strange brain that want�s to analyze and twist everything. I have tried Alka-Seltzer, red wine, shrink, books, coach, meditation, kryptonite, 2x4ing myself, wearing a lead-helmet and then some � but it won�t stop! That said, I believe that I am able not to act on this and I feel I am close to a place where I recognize these behaviors almost immediately and at the same time it doesn�t affect me to the same extent as it used too.

F

Originally Posted By: Fartiltre

The problem is that right now I don�t feel like I have done anything at all! I haven�t changed anything!

GOOD! Then keep doing nothing! Sometimes pulling back and doing nothing is exactly what the sitch needs.

Quote:

but I am equipped with this strange brain that want�s to analyze and twist everything.

You and every other one of us guys. I never did find peace in my sitch until I QUIT that though. We can't fix our spouses. Only they can do that. You're seeing baby steps, so now you're getting worried that you're not doing enough, right? Just remember, SHE is on HER OWN journey. The baby steps you see have nothing to do with you and everything to do with her.

Quote:

I have tried Alka-Seltzer, red wine, shrink, books, coach, meditation, kryptonite, 2x4ing myself, wearing a lead-helmet and then some � but it won�t stop!

Ah, but there's one thing noticeably absent from that list, isn't there? None of those things really fall under GAL, and GAL is exactly what does make it stop.

Quote:

That said, I believe that I am able not to act on this and I feel I am close to a place where I recognize these behaviors almost immediately and at the same time it doesn�t affect me to the same extent as it used too.

Good, that's progress. Build on it.

Wow F, a lot of good discussion and even better replies and help. You can do this, you know how you can do this, just do it (oops this is not a nike ad).

HWA,

If they make me run better I will put them on

Yes, lots happened and now W will come by tomorrow!

Thanks!

F

Well they make me run better. Best 10km run I ever did, 36 mins.

Received an email from W this evening as a reply to mine

ME (15:16)

Hi
Dinner with the girl sounds just fine! Come by after scouting and I will make some soup.
I expect to be there on Friday but won�t arrive until 16.00
It would be nice with the pictures. I will find a disk and drop it by.
Say hi to the girls
Fartiltre

W (19:55)

Hey
Havent seen your mail until now but it sounds super nice with soup tomorrow.
See you after scouting
I should say hi back :-)
Autosignature

So here we go again. W will be over tomorrow with the Ds. It will properly be very short since they won't arrive until 18.45 and the Ds will have to be in bed around 20.30.

I will also see her Friday at the Christmas thing at D4s kindergarten but after this I plan to pull back. The number of interactions is simply too much these days and I feel more like bright and shiny instead of dim.

Dear Hotwheels,
I have made the connection here and will keep watch. Take care, Laurie

Thanks Laurie.

F,
Good Luck, let us know how it went

WHAT A DAY

S10 and I had a great morning but when I went to my first meeting today I had to tell a very dear friend that his business is a mess � we talked for hours about what to do but haven�t come up with a solution. I will keep on helping him.
After this talk I realized how different I am acting in situations like this. I feel I am more caring and compassionate in my angle. Prior to all of this I would have been businesslike, calculating and while still helping I didn�t come out as supporting. I did today! I comforted a friend in need in the best of manner. Realizing this makes me feel good about me.
He thanked me many times this evening, not for my advice but for caring and supporting.

HYPNOSIS
After this I went through hypnosis.
It was a two hour parts-hypnosis and a truly crazy experience. I didn�t believe in things like this and would never have gone before BD but I am so glad I did although I was still very skeptical.
He pulled me through a lot. I found myself smiling, I cried a lot, I saw the monsters within me and even named them. In fact there is three. He asked me to make them step forward one by one and we talked with and to them. He asked what we should call them and the words just flew out my mouth: interrupter, egoist and monster. I saw this monster in the eyes. I pictured it and I felt so frightened by it. At the end he asked them to step forward once more and this really scary thing that made me cry when I saw it the first time was now just a single head on a beach � almost made me laugh.
Well I can�t explain � simply crazy but also recommendable.
Now I am curious if this will change anything but it made me aware and that alone great! If I am able to handle these things within me this one session is better spend than all the shrink sessions together. I look forward to talking to my shrink about this in two weeks.

W AND Ds FOR DINNER
Meet up with W was the best so far!
They arrived around 18:45 and the Ds just came running in and fell over me. I sat down on the floor and talked a lot with them while fooling around. D4 was wearing her new glasses and she was proud

W just stood and looked for a while but I chose to focus on the Ds and the new glasses so no hug for W.

I had the soup and asked D6 to help set the table and light some candles as I usually do. D6 cried when we sat down since D4 was placed in between me and W. W started arguing with her but suddenly a break occurred and it seemed normal for me to say something and instead of arguing about the choice of seat I sat down and asked D6 why she was sad. She explained and I simply validated her. Then I suggested that D4 and D6 could switch places half way in to the meal. I don�t know where that came from but suddenly everything was good again. Prior to BD I would have taken the argument but for what?

Dinner was nice. Strictly talk about Ds.

Afterward I found some music with D6 and W started making coffee as if she was at home � half way in she asked if it was all right. Afterwards she also did the dishes.

D6 wanted to play a game on the computer and while she did that W, D4 and I went through the Christmas-deco. I had decided that I wouldn�t make anything out of this but since W only took things she had prior to us meeting up that was very easy � took less than 5 min. I let her walk around the house and pick the things herself.

I played a lot with the children, fooled around on the floor and was able to enjoy them and the time together. W being here didn�t interfere or interrupt me but we didn�t interact that much together with the children.
I looked at her a few times and she just looked like a bystander.

W carried D4 to the car and I D6. I sat D6 in the car and talked with her for quite some time while W was waiting right behind me. When I turned around she reached for a hug and thanked me for a nice evening. D4 started crying � she wanted to stay here.

They left 20:10

I might still come out a little reserved as I still ask her nothing about her, but today I feel I was the kind neighbor and an excellent father without pretending or going somewhere I don�t want to be. W doesn�t ask about my life as well.
Awkwardness was gone after 10 seconds and it didn�t return!

I feel good about this meet up but still I also feel like withdrawing a little now.
I will see her again on Friday.

I took some pictures at D4 with her new glasses on and when W left I posted it on Facebook. Got a bunch of likes and among them one from W, W niece and another family member of Ws

LIKE FROM SIL
The biggest surprise today was my own SIL liking another post I did on FB about my Movember. I haven�t spoken to her for more than half a year and then she suddenly does this. I think that�s what�s called a baby-step but the problem is that I don�t feel like R.

Spend the rest of the evening with my friend in trouble going over his numbers. It doesn�t look good and I feel so sorry for him.

End of a crazy, emotional and truly self-expanding day.
WHAT A DAY!

Fantastic F. It sounds like it went very well. It's amazing what DB does for us, in so many different ways: your friend and his business, your D's sharing the seating arrangements.
These are our own personal baby steps I believe.
I get your view about hypnosis, being very skeptical but also shocked at what can go on.

HWA,

Thanks!
You should try the hypnosis - crazy experience!

This could be babysteps for me or just an up. I really don't know but I am feeling good and for now I will just enjoy that!

Take care!

F

Woke up and felt so great this morning � like just taking life in!
I am feeling good after yesterday and definitely in an up.

My day was planned and pretty busy.
A local friend is working from his homeoffice and we have been talking about him joining me at my office. Today he did. We don�t do anything together in regards of work but just getting out was great for him and I have the possibility to offer him this. He is from England and don�t know that many people here.

When I came to the office W texted:

Hey
2 times [name] is ready for the swimmingpool. They are looking so much forward to this.
D4 get so sad when I set her off at kindergarten these days. It makes me a little sad and gives a very bad start on a new day.
The case for the glasses is at kindergarten. I have spoken with the adult and told them that it is OK for her to take them off and have a break from the glasses some times during the day. It was major for her to show the glasses off, but it might have been a little too much..?
See you tomorrow
Have a nice day.
W

([Name] represent the name of D4. Her best friend has the same name.)

I didn�t answer.

I should have picked up D4 (out of schedule) and her friend but the friend got ill and D4 wanted to go home � no swimming but a nice evening!

The picture I posted yesterday got more likes from Ws family today and also one from MIL and SIL. That�s the first sign of life from them since summer.
I am not reading anything in to all of this in regards of R/M but these people responding does mean something to me. It means that the dividing of friends and family isn�t as big as it could be! If R is ever to happen that�s good! Me going LRT, telling W we can�t be friends and W getting pi$$ed might have eased off a bit. It doesn�t mean I won�t continue exactly what I am doing.

Yesterday I faced the monster within me! I now truly know that my outmost biggest fear is not in my surroundings � he is inside me and he is a part of me at the moment! I stared him in the eyes and while feeling extremely good about this - it still gives me the shivers. It was an amazing experience! I know my monster better and will try to define him, keep him away and hopefully bury him totally at some point! It frightens me to carry him around but knowing him makes me able to fight him and fight him I will!

Today I have put little green Yoda�s wise words in my sig and I will put them on my wall at home:
Do or do not � there�s no try.
I can and will do this and I am not talking about getting W back. I am talking about making and keeping the new me and if W doesn�t want this guy that�s her loss.

Thanksgiving isn�t a part of the culture here but anyhow I would like to say thank you to all the caring people in here! You saved me and I truly hope that you knowing this makes you feel a little better. So when you close your eyes tonight be aware that somewhere around the world is a man that owes you his sanity!
Gratitude!!

Good stuff F. Yoda signature, typical Star Wars fan :-)

Just home from the Christmasparty at D4s kindergarten.

It went well! D4 ran to my arms when I arrived, hugged me and sat on my lap from thereon. I said hi to W and seated myself next to her. After I finished hugging D4 I got a strange sounding hi from W and interpreted it as either she didn�t hear that I already said hi or she wondered why I didn�t hug her. I know this is properly considered mindreading but that�s how I see it. I didn�t react to it.

I had bought a hat that looked like a Christmastree and that sort of made me the cool parent. The children just kept coming at me at the adult asked where I got it.

After a while she said �It also went very well at D6�. (D6 had christmasparty as well with MIL attending) I felt in her wordings and her tone that she blamed me for not asking � didn�t react to it but simply and nicely told W �Great, I didn�t realize that it had already ended.�. Then she told me a few things about this and I listened.
We talked very little from thereon but interacted through D4. The only thing else I remember is her getting us coffee.
We sat there for half an hour. I kept my attention on D4 and once again I might come out a bit cold towards W. I am kind, responsive and smiling but I don�t ask her anything.
She talked to other parents and, as the last time, I looked at her as a bystander. She didn�t look comfortable or well-feeling. She looked sort of like the person that doesn�t feel they belong at a party. Hard to explain!

When we left D6 and MIL met us. I hugged D6 for a long time and then MIL. We talked shortly and then I hugged all four � W reached out for the hug again.
Then I left.

I think it went well and no awkward feelings at all but I am thinking about if I should ask her something about her life.

Rest of the day has been busy at work and now I am of to GAL!

I do not expect any further contact for the next days since MIL is staying at Ws place and I won�t initiate anything myself. The last days has been more than enough for me and it is time to back off and give her time and space.

Hi F, I have been reading your threads for a bit but thought I'd just say hi so as not to be a creepy lurker.

It sounds like you are doing great (and getting results!), and I can empathize with so much that you are going through.

Quote:

I think it went well and no awkward feelings at all but I am thinking about if I should ask her something about her life.

I find this a little tricky myself. I do not ask H anything about his life (as in, what are you doing, where were you last night, etc.) unless (a) he brought it up to me before; or (b) it's something very light and has no effect on me whatsoever. On the other hand, I also don't want to sit around and yammer about myself, so that doesn't leave a whole lot left to discuss.

So what I have been doing: talk about the kids. Talk about external events - so, sports, or a TV show, or a cartoon I saw. Or a funny story about a friend, for example. I will also tell him a funny story about something I saw, or did, or that happened to me. Then I follow his lead. He will usually start talking about all kinds of stuff, and then I can too. If he doesn't, I don't either. I think this is a place where you have to test and check . . . try little things and see what happens. Maybe your W wants to talk more but is waiting for an opening.

I agree with the 37 rules and DBing principles, but I think we do have to remember that our WASs are human and have feelings, too. I don't think they are necessarily 100% confident in navigating all of this stuff, or know what they are supposed to do, or how to act, or even how we are going to react to certain things. So I do think that there is some tweaking to be done. I do a lot of small test & checks, and it really helps me to figure out where things are and how to act in each situation. If you do small things, I think you can easily back off without too much harm if she doesn't respond positively.

So, vets might jump on me for this, but I do think that you need to (in very small and calculated ways) push things a little and see what happens. I mean, you can't follow the 37 rules forever, or your W will eventually think you have lost interest. JMO.

Glad things have been going so well - hopefully it will continue!

I often read a post from a LBS express concern the WAS might think interest has been lost. However, I have never read where the LBS began pursuing the WAS just in the nick of time (to show they were still interested). No offense to the previous poster, but why do LBS fear the WAS will think they've lost interest? When in fact, detaching is (in part) to imply disinterest. And, unless human nature has changed a lot, it use to be the very thing that would motivate a woman to flirt with a man......in order to stir his interest in her. If he responds too quickly, or over kills showing just how interested he is.......she often loses hers. Yes, it is a game between the sexes. But IMO, most people will play into it at some point in their lifetime.

With a separated couple, it can be like walking a thin line. A lot of men do not seem to know how to detach without acting cold to the woman. F, I have read several of your posts where you mention that your actions (whenever with your W) could be seen by her as coldness. You have a difficult time maintaining eye contact (which can be very misunderstood by the other person) and you interact very little when she is "visiting".....and you show the children most of your attention. Now if I had not kept up with your stitch I may think you were keeping this interaction (or lack of it) very balanced. But what I've seen is you withdrawing a bit too much lately.

You have admitted that you aren't anxious to be around her b/c you want more time to work on yourself. But you won't look her in the eyes, and you aren't talking unless it is about the kids. In the beginning of the separation, not giving a lot of conversation was good. And I remember how much you wanted to take over those conversations when you first started posting.

I have talked to you about the importance of eye contact, so I will not repeat it. Just work more on it.

I think you can try contributing a little bit more conversation at this time. Can you do it without making it sound like you want to know all about her? In other words, try talking about something other than the kids.......and not asking her questions about what she has been doing/feeling/etc. As if you are being more friendly with the nosey neighbor, or maybe a coworker. That is how you slowly ease a baby-step in her direction without giving her the cake she really wants right now.

She is missing having you giving her emotional support/caring/interest and is finally realizing this separation isn't at all like she thought it would be. So, show her a little charm without giving her the pleasure of telling you all about herself. Does that make sense? Do this in person and when you are actually speaking (I wouldn't worry with the email and texts right now). If it goes well, you can continue and/or add a tiny bit more the next time. But don't pursue her yet. Your plan should be to simply produce a little more conversation about general things. Nothing personal.

If she invites you, or hints at doing something with the kids........you can accept or give her a counter offer. In other words, you are not ready to show up with her at a friend's party, should she ask. But you could be ready with a good response and give another suggestion. Make sense? This way, you feel more in control and she souldn't feel pursued.

I hope you understand and won't be confused by any of what I have said. I just don't want you to run away from her and I don't want her to misinterpret your actions as rudeness. I want you to be very self confident. Do you understand, or does it sound like I am contradicting myself?

Quote:

Sandi, I think this is a common fear among LBSs whose S left because they felt unappreciated, unloved, what have you. My H told me he actually thought I would be happy if he left - that is how deeply unwanted/unloved he felt. So it can feel, to an LBS like me, that if we act disinterested, we will simply be proving the WAS right, and it will help solidify his/her decision.

Every sitch is different, but I will say with my H, that he responds to a good mix of disinterest (or giving space, however you want to characterize that) and feeling wanted/loved/respected. Even though I think it should be pretty clear that I love him and want him, I think he is so scarred by how rejected he felt before that he is still not 100% confident in how I feel. So to only be mysterious and distant, I think, would be the wrong way to go for me.

I agree with you on the power dynamic - but think about that woman who lost interest in the guy who showed too much interest. She is probably just as likely to lose interest if the guy shows no interest in her. For fear of wasted effort, or just plain rejection. So what I'm trying to say is - it's a balance. Too little interest, IMO, is just as bad as too much. But there needs to be SOME, at some point, if there is to be an R. Right?

But see, I also don't see how fully detaching is a good thing for any M, so I am just a rogue DBer, and my advice should be taken with a salt lick.

I think we all agree it is balance and that is what Sandi is trying to get across to F in her last post, and I have also said it. You need a good balance of not interested/interested. If F leaves each encounter thinking it could be considered 'cold' by W, that is not a good sign. F, you want to be warm without pursuing!

I had a great night out yesterday. Me and two guys met up and simply just talked for the hole evening and most of the night.
One of the guys is M to a friend of W and he told that she is sad, that she had visited them and told so. He asked me at some point who made the decision to split up. I told him that W did. I told him that I tried to get her to reconsider her decision until the date we told the children. He then stated that he thinks she is sad because I have moved on, because I was doing good, had sorted out my life and so on. At some point he said �Well, who knows � she could be in problems, be missing you or wanting to get back together. I don�t know!�

I am still not sharing DBing or my wish to R with anybody but I find myself talking more about what I am doing and the personal growth/development I work on. They told me they see the change and that I am doing well. I shared my experience from the hypnosis and we had a good talk about the monsters within us

Today I have been working at home with a neighbor. We had a splendid day and suddenly this guy�s tells me that he and his W really hope that I will be able to stay out here on the countryside � simply because they like me. We have been making preparations for next weekend when we have 50 people over for Christmas party � nice day today as well.

Movember ended today and I did very well:) Raised a ton of money and have been getting so many positive strokes from friends all around!

Sandi,
Thanks again for sticking with me!
I am feeling very good these days because I am getting myself back. I am turning back in to a good catch

W and sit is on my mind but the thoughts are changing. I have found myself wondering a few times today whether I want to R. I do, but I am also realizing how long and hard this road will be if it is ever to happen!
I feel I am growing these days, I feel on top and I feel more self-confident. I get so many positive strokes from people around me that it would be hard not to feel this way.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

She is missing having you giving her emotional support/caring/interest and is finally realizing this separation isn't at all like she thought it would be.

Something is going on and IMO she is realizing these days but if she misses IDK � still I trust your judgment and hope you are right. I think a lot is going on that I don�t know of. My friend (from yesterday evening) offered to ask his W but I declined it. I think it should be considered snooping and it would put focus on W.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

But what I've seen is you withdrawing a bit too much lately.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

Can you do it without making it sound like you want to know all about her?

Then I will open up a bit and yes, I can do this! As I read you:
In the weeks to come I will when/if I see W in person ask her a question or two about her life. I think I will go with subjects like: her new TV-set, working situation and Christmas preparation. I will make the questions about something and not just generals like �How are you�.
If she starts talking I will simply listen and comment - I won�t share my own life and I will not try to fix hers.
Otherwise I will keep doing what I am doing in regards of e-mails, texting and phonecalls. I won�t reach out, I will answer questions but if she doesn�t state a question I won�t reply to her text/email.
I will continue to keep phonecalls short and I will end them
If she invites to doing something I will either accept or counter if I am able too. (My GAL is very well this month and I have a busy schedule.)
I will be a little more accepting to invitations than earlier on
If we end up seeing each other it will be with the children and then I will see to that all four of us interacts. I will initiate a board game, a movie, a walk to the beach and so on.
If she invites me to her house I feel like turning it down. I won�t feel comfortable there!
I will continue working on my eye-contact. This is not just a problem with W. It is a general problem but through my awareness I will get better.
I will focus even more on my tone of voice and looks

Is this approx. correct?

Originally Posted By: Sandi

I hope you understand and won't be confused by any of what I have said. I just don't want you to run away from her and I don't want her to misinterpret your actions as rudeness. I want you to be very self confident. Do you understand, or does it sound like I am contradicting myself?

No contradiction read! As I read you, you simply want me to reach out a tiny bit more than I have done and I see this as a natural step. I don�t see myself as rude and after yesterday I now know that the way I have been acting has the support from people around me! This DBing is really starting to make sense!
My confidence is up and down but it is definitely rising!

LTH,

Originally Posted By: LTH

Warm, without pursuing � I like that one

Now I will have to put it into action and that might be a little harder on me than I realize but I will get there. You and Sandi keeps me busy!
I hope you agree to the list in the above answer to Sandi.

Melissa,
Thanks for stopping by!
There�s a lot of lurkers in here but that just makes me feel good. I have been blessed with so much advice on this travel and I do hope that others can benefit from the time the VETs have invested in me. That said it is nice to know one of the lurkers. I am not up to speed with your sit.

Originally Posted By: Melissa

So, vets might jump on me for this, but I do think that you need to (in very small and calculated ways) push things a little and see what happens. I mean, you can't follow the 37 rules forever, or your W will eventually think you have lost interest. JMO.

I think one of the major problems in all of this is that LBS act�s premature. We talk about patience and time but if the WAS reaches out with the tip of a finger we tend to eat their arm of. Some months ago Sandi and LTH dragged me through this process. They guided me, educated me and told me what to do. I am still not totally sure that I understand fully but I am getting closer every day.
I also believe that the WAS needs to think that the LBS has lost interest and moved on. This is needed for them to start thinking �WTF, is going on around me?�. Some of the things I see happened around me could be small signs that my W is at this point. IMO this doesn�t mean that R is closer � it just means that she is watching.
Right now my biggest issue is not W � she is gone and living her life. My biggest issue is me! I have so many things I want to do, people I want to see, things I want to do with the children and most of all I have so many areas of development inside me and in my life � sometimes I even wonder if W has a place here. I feel better and better living as a singledad.
About the subjects to talk about I think it is important to make these about them and not us. I haven�t told W about anything in my life since I started LRT. Therefore I also believe that talking to her should be started with a question about her and not a story about me. VETs will hopefully tell me if I am wrong.
I am rather certain that W wants to share but I have turned her down so many times that she simply has given up. Now I will reach out a little and see if this changes anything.

Originally Posted By: Melissa

My H told me he actually thought I would be happy if he left - that is how deeply unwanted/unloved he felt.

Or this is just WAS BS � he could just need a justification for himself! I am doing this to make you happy, I am doing this to make your life better�.this sounds like scripting. Take your focus of it but do counter it if he states this again!
H, you making the decision to break up out family will not make me happy. This is a decision you have made for you and I do hope it makes it possible for you to find the happiness you are looking for.
�or something like that.

Thanks all!

F

F, good to hear from you. Also good to hear you had another great night out.
Was going to reply to a few of your comments, but felt they were more about me, rather than about you. So added them into my thread.

Originally Posted By: F

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Melissa
My H told me he actually thought I would be happy if he left - that is how deeply unwanted/unloved he felt.

Hi F, my H has said things very similar to this and I believe him now and believed him then. I think we do ourselves a disservice when we label everything as "LBS script" because we then begin dealing with a shadow person we create in our minds, not the living, breathing, feeling human standing in front of us. Many WASs say the same things but so do the LBSs, it doesn't make it less true.

When H said that to me it caused me to really look at ME, I cleaned my mirror and took a good look. I was sorely lacking in some departments and his words opened up in me an opportunity to change. I want to stress that the change wasn't for him, it was for me because if I was like that in my M, I was also like that in other Rs.

When this topic comes up it also begs the question "Why would I want to remain married to someone who I thought continually spouted BS?"

That's a really good point Bug. I never thought about it that way. I guess because we do hear such similar comments in our sitchs that we can tend to always put it down to the script. And while I do believe there is some script, I never thought about it the way you described it.

Thanks for that!

I'm pretty sure that my H really meant it when he said he thought I'd be happy. He said it during a R convo that was not heated at all. I was saying something about how I felt about him and he was surprised to hear it, because he had it in his head that I just couldn't stand him.

Now, he has also said that he thinks everyone will be happier and better off if we split (including the children, ha!), and that I do kind of write off as script (he may believe it to be true, but it's clearly a lie he is telling himself at least with respect to the children), but the other comment I think he really meant.

Quote:

I think one of the major problems in all of this is that LBS act�s premature. We talk about patience and time but if the WAS reaches out with the tip of a finger we tend to eat their arm off.

Yes - I agree with this 100%. Thankfully, I have not yet eaten my H's arm off, though in my head it's way more than just his arm.

Quote:

I also believe that the WAS needs to think that the LBS has lost interest and moved on. This is needed for them to start thinking �WTF, is going on around me?�. Some of the things I see happened around me could be small signs that my W is at this point. IMO this doesn�t mean that R is closer � it just means that she is watching.

It does seem that your W is at this point now - so maybe you can just nibble on her finger a little and see if she offers up some more.

Quote:

About the subjects to talk about I think it is important to make these about them and not us. I haven�t told W about anything in my life since I started LRT. Therefore I also believe that talking to her should be started with a question about her and not a story about me. VETs will hopefully tell me if I am wrong.

Hmm. I agree with this somewhat - but what I meant about telling a story about me is, I tell H something he would appreciate or think is funny, or about someone he knows. Maybe something that has to do with one of his interests or hobbies. It's hard to talk about the other person without asking any questions about his/her life, right?

Quote:

I am rather certain that W wants to share but I have turned her down so many times that she simply has given up. Now I will reach out a little and see if this changes anything.

Good, I hope this works out well, and will be checking back for good news!

Monday afternoon here! I haven�t spoken with W since Friday and didn�t expect to since Mil has stayed at her place this weekend.
Sunday was a quiet day. I worked the outhouses a bit and been to the forest, met up with the neighbors and talked a little and played an online game with S10 for an hour or so.
W/sit has been on my mind. After interactions with her I tend to move my focus from me back to her and sit afterwards.

Labug,
(In the below I have spewing and spouting meaning the same - I hope this is correct, but please correct my english if it isnt)
I follow you and think your point is interesting but it is hard for me to believe that a person will leave a R to make another person happy. I am not saying it can�t happen but IMO the WAS leaves primarily to save themselves from further hurt. They might think that while doing that they also �save� the LBS. The WAS might even think this is true but I haven�t read any LBS seeing things this way � so�. It might feel real to them but rarely has it anything to do with reality � just my opinion.

That said you might have a point about us using the WAS-script and us looking at our S as an alien, in the fog or a completely different person. We tend to look too much at the WAS as being another person. While you are right on this I also believe that us doing so helps us to keep going. Especially right after BD we need hope so much and this gave me hope. �They can wake up at some point� gives hope to a lot of people.

Originally Posted By: LTH

When this topic comes up it also begs the question "Why would I want to remain married to someone who I thought continually spouted BS?"

Well, I think in common we live with this because of the above. We accept and explains the spew with the fog, script and likewise. I also believe that most of us will have to forget and forgive both ourselves and our spouse. If I took all the things that W have told me for granted, unchangeable and inexcusable I would already have changed my goal. I have �I don�t love you� and �I don�t want to live with you� on the top of the list and that beats most the spew I have heard.

So to me the spouting will not be a problem and neither will her leaving in the first place. She has told me several times all kind of unpleasant things, but I do accept these as her feelings and after 9 months of this I also start to have a very clear picture of why she felt and feels that way. I am seemingly lucky to have an amicable WAW but she has spewed. I understand that she does this from a place of hurt and anger and thereby I have no problems with these things at all.

I see the spew as her reacting to me and life in general, but the goal right now is to change me and life in general and that will hopefully also change the R and her spewing.

I hope this makes sense!

W called this evening � I almost expected this, sorry to say!

I had prepared a few questions but I didn�t need them.

She started out by asking �How are things� and I replied �Fine� held a little break and then for the first time since LRT asked her �How are you?�

Then she started out by telling about MIL visiting, the Ds liking this and that they have had a great weekend.
Then a lot about D6 having some minor issues with two friends that both want her to call them best friend � long talk about this. I told her she handled the talk well since I believe she did.

Then something about Christmas TV-shows and then she stopped talking for a while. I asked her a short question and she started again. This time about D4 being sad when people leaves her and saying goodbye.

When this came to an end I told her that I will pick up bags as usual Wednesday and that I would like for her to make sure the warm clothing is packed. Then she talked a lot about clothing.

I ended the call hereafter. The end was a bit funny. It came a little abrupt and I felt she wanted to keep talking�just a feeling! Call lasted 7 min.

I feel I was more open and I don�t feel I was cold. I would say a little withdrawn, reserved and sparse in words but still quite nice and listening. I didn�t tell her about my life except for the fine at the beginning.
I feel I did good and sticked with the plan!

It seems like this is her cake at the moment, as Sandi has told me. It is crazy knowing that she is expressing so much sadness and still acting like this. It�s just like me, except I try not to express it

I know I shouldn�t mindread, but it is hard not to give this a thought with all the things I have learned and experienced over the last two weeks.
I won�t act on anything � just a thought!

Tomorrow S10 and I have taken the day off and we will go hunting for a doe-calf. I am looking so much forward to this. It is the first time we will stalk together � and in fact I think we are equally exited.

Good job!

Found the words to put on the feeling:
The feeling I had at the end of the convo � in fact twice � was the feeling of her waiting for me to say, do, initiate (or likewise) something.
I still know it is a feeling and perhaps includes mindreading � but that�s what I felt!

Just for my record!

Sandi,

Thanks!! I feel good about it as well.
Did you have a chance to look through the short list of actions I posted earlier?

F

Quote:

but it is hard for me to believe that a person will leave a R to make another person happy.

Thanks for your response. I just want to clarify one thing and can only speak of my situation, I don't think my H left to make me happy. He left because HE was unhappy but was then surprised that I wasn't happy. He had felt so discounted by my actions that he thought I wouldn't care.

I guess I was lucky that he was a better DBer (no, he didn't read the book, he was just acting on instinct) than I was in the beginning. We had almost no contact other than "business" for the first 6 months. When we did interact, it was very much of the "friendly neighbor" type.

It seems you and I might both think what your W is saying is true to her now, in the moment or whenever she said those things. You call it spew and BS and I guess that's what throws me off.

Thanks for your insight because this always confuses me and I'm sure it will continue to in some way.

Labug,

Originally Posted By: Labug

You call it spew and BS and I guess that's what throws me off.

And I can see why!
In fact this is both dishonoring and disrespectful. It is a manner of speech I think I have adopted � in fact � from this forum and I do believe that you have read the words harder than they were intended, but I can see why!
I thank you for making me aware of this.
F

F - do you think you should have pursued a little?

I have to tell you speaking of script, I actually didn't get ILYBINILWY line until about two weeks before W completely broke down and came back. She then told me that was complete BS, and just her desperately trying to justify herself in her head.

Quote:

In the weeks to come I will when/if I see W in person ask her a question or two about her life. I think I will go with subjects like: her new TV-set, working situation and Christmas preparation. I will make the questions about something and not just generals like �How are you�.

I think this is a good idea, don't go overboard - you don't want to go from one extreme to the other but you don't want to seem like you can't stand talking to her either. Warm up a little..

Quote:

If she starts talking I will simply listen and comment - I won�t share my own life and I will not try to fix hers.

It is good to throw in a little something about your GAL or W won't know you have changed or what she is missing. You don't have to say something every time but if she makes a comment where you can say "Oh yeah, the other night I was out doing xxxx and I felt the same way" or whatever so she knows you are building a life. You want her to wonder what happened to the F she knew and what she is missing.

Quote:

Otherwise I will keep doing what I am doing in regards of e-mails, texting and phonecalls. I won�t reach out, I will answer questions but if she doesn�t state a question I won�t reply to her text/email.

You can add this is later, you don't want to change everything at once, but you can reply sometimes. If she says something funny reply with a

or a 'haha'.

Little by little open up some. You are still LRTing but not in a cold way. From a couple of your recent posts, it sounds as if you have given the impression that you are not the least bit interested and are shutting W out because of her choices. Don't throw yourself at her feet, keep doing what you are doing and in little ways be a little more receptive to her.

Originally Posted By: labug

Quote:

but it is hard for me to believe that a person will leave a R to make another person happy.

Same here. My H said that, during our M, there were times that he really thought I disliked him so much that I would be happier if he just wasn't around.

It hurt like hell to hear him say that, but I believe him. There was some other "script" I didn't believe - the "I don't love you" and such.

Though I have to say, even things that are "script" aren't BS to the person saying them. I think that when a WAS says things like "I don't love you anymore," or "this will never work," etc., they really do think that. Now, maybe they only think that because they have convinced themselves of that so that they can justify what they are doing in their own head, but regardless, I think they do actually think it.

Quote:

Though I have to say, even things that are "script" aren't BS to the person saying them. I think that when a WAS says things like "I don't love you anymore," or "this will never work," etc., they really do think that. Now, maybe they only think that because they have convinced themselves of that so that they can justify what they are doing in their own head, but regardless, I think they do actually think it.

...or are trying to convince themselves that's the truth because they are so hurt.

You could have asked me on any given day during my M before BD, 'do you love your H?' and some days I might have answered, not today, ask me tomorrow. Marriage is a fragile thing and once the momentum starts to go south, the trouble snowballs, especially if the love bank is already near empty.

Caveat, some people do lie, just because that's who they are, but I would guess a spouse would know if they were married to a person who doesn't tell the truth.

Quote:

...or are trying to convince themselves that's the truth because they are so hurt.

Yes, this. I remember reading in a thread a bit ago, I think it was NTXDad who said that LBSs sometimes don't realize just how awful/hurt the WAS felt in the M. That they may try to write off the WAS's feelings in some way (I think he said mental illness, but I think that lying, script, selfish probably also apply), and that that kind of complacency probably contributed to the breakdown of the M in the fist place.

I try to keep this in mind . . . I think it's important. It just goes along with taking the responsibility and changing the things about myself that need changing.

F, sorry to hijack your thread with this convo . . . but I think it's worth having and a good reminder for all of us that we need to be listening to our Ss, even if they seem to be crazy.

Had a great day with S10 � we stalked the woods for 2� hour and got the deer.
We have done some preparations for Saturday but tonight we will properly just enjoy ourselves.
A good friend and neighbors dropped by to say hi without notice � great!
I am feeling well these days.

I have been thinking a lot about a statement from one of the guy�s Friday evening. At some point he said �And it was W leaving you and not the other way around?� That has caught my mind and I will properly give him a call this evening and ask him to clarify. He stated that in a way that makes me believe that he was in doubt and I can�t see why he should be that.

Tomorrow Ds will be here and I look forward to seeing them.

JonF,
Thanks for being here! I follow your thread and it seems you are doing very well � that makes me happy!

Originally Posted By: JonF

F - do you think you should have pursued a little?

Nope, not at the moment! IMO W needs more time and so do I. She need to face reality and I need to face me. I am going to open up at bit. I have properly closed almost totally down and to be honest right now it feels wrong to open up. It�s not that I don�t want to be kind � I think I am just feeling rather good most days after starting LRT.
Still I am going strictly on Sandi and LTHs advice. I have been doing that for some time now and they have been spot on.

Originally Posted By: JonF

She then told me that was complete BS, and just her desperately trying to justify herself in her head.

I got the ILUB-speech on day of BD and have gotten I two or three times afterwards. If she said this to justify herself or because that�s actually how she felt I really don�t know, but I choose to believe that she once loved me deeply and that she can do this again.

LTH,
As always � thanks for all your support!

Originally Posted By: LTH

It is good to throw in a little something about your GAL or W won't know you have changed or what she is missing.

I know what you mean but honestly I don�t think I need to do this. The major part of Ws closets friends is also close to me and the other way around. So far I have not lost anybody significant to me and neither have she. On Saturday Ws two closets friends will visit me and my best friend just helped W buy a new TV-set and had her over for dinner. Things are so mixed up that it is hard to believe and I think W knows most of what I do already. Anyhow I will throw in something � it can�t hurt anything or anybody.

Originally Posted By: LTH

Little by little open up some.

I will try to do exactly this, but I will take it very slow! I will stick with the list I posted few days ago.

Melissa,

Originally Posted By: Melissa

F, sorry to hijack your thread with this convo

No problem at all! If it�s relevant I welcome it � and this is!

F

Pleasant day!

When I drove by W to pick up the bag today she was home again � this might be the new normal!

She saw my car and when I got out she came to the door with the bag. She handed me some pictures that was taken at D6s School � she had ordered and paid for an extra copy for me. We talked a little about this. Then she asked about the hunt with S10 yesterday. I posted this on FB and she gave it a like. I told her about the day, how exited S10 and how proud I had felt for some time. We talked about some issues with D6s using bad language and some other subjects.
She talked a lot about friends visiting D6.

I used many more words than normal, I laughed, kept eye-contact � it all! Only thing to mention is that now I feel awkward doing this. The strict LRT so far has rooted itself and now I need to change it again. With this in mind I believe the meet-up went very well.
We talked for 5-6 min. compared to the normal 2-3 min.
We didn�t hug when we met up and when I left, I simply touched her arm and said goodbye.
When I left she wished us a nice Christmas-party on Saturday and told me to say hi to all.

Then I picked up the Ds � so good to see them!!!
While driving back and forth from supermarket to girlscouting and back again I passed Ws house three times this evening. Normally I don�t feel like looking but today I did. She just sat there at a table and I felt sorry for her! Don�t exactly know why but she just looked lonely and writing this I realize that all of this has ruined her life-dream. I hope she finds room to forgive me and herself at some later point!

I also had a short talk with a friend today. This is the friend that W cried at few weeks ago. He is very close to me and still have contact with W. I told him that the last few times I have mentioned W he has been very silent and I told him that I needed for us to clarify on this. He stated that this wasn�t on purpose and afterwards I told him that I respected him for keeping confidentiality with both me and W. It ended with him saying that he has known me for 20 years or so and only very few times has he been confused about me, my opinions and my goals � now is one of those times. I told him that I was confused as well and that�s properly is what he is feeling. I also told him that if W came tomorrow and asked to move back in I properly wouldn�t know what to respond.
He stated that he and his W like W and I told him that I know and understand. Then I asked him if at any point he had felt me wanting him to choose side and he told me no.
It was a nice and good talk. I feel good about not addressing this until now.

Yesterday I hunted with S10 and today a stag got hit by a car where I live. The deer was brought to me to be fixed and D6 was so awesome and curious. She ended up with the heart in her hands and when I finished she carried it to the kitchen. She and I cleaned the heart from the stag and the deer S10 and I shot yesterday � tomorrow we will cook them

Afterwards we ate dinner at neighbors!

I forgot one little thing about my talk with W yesterday.

She stated that she was looking for Christmas presents for me from the girls. �There should be something under the tree for you� she said. I told her no need more than once, but she insisted and told me that she have already talked with the girls and asked them what to give me. They had come up with a car and a rifle and things like that. So we talked about wishes and I told her that I wished for something the Ds have made themselves � like a painting or so.

Quote:

I used many more words than normal, I laughed, kept eye-contact � it all! Only thing to mention is that now I feel awkward doing this. The strict LRT so far has rooted itself and now I need to change it again. With this in mind I believe the meet-up went very well.

Sounds like things are going well, F! Good for you for being a little more friendly with W - it sounds like she is receptive to it, so that's a great sign. I know how you feel about being awkward - I am not even doing LRT, but I have gotten so used to not asking questions, not talking about myself, and giving H space, that it sometimes feels sort of scary to do anything else.

Nice morning with the Ds all though it became a little too late yesterday because of the stag.

I had the day off because I wanted to see S10 at Santa Lucia parade. He was walking with his class. So D4 took the day off as well and she and I went to see S10. We shopped some on the way home and picked up D6 as early as possible.
I have bought some paint so the Ds can make a picture for W, as a Christmas-present.

Yesterday I posted about the stag on FB and how cool D6 was during all of this. Today W liked this post and furthermore she commented on it, something like �There have never been any doubt about her being sooo cool ;-)� Hard to translate but the phrasing is nice, pleasant and a little funny in my native language.

W called at 7PM asking if I had gotten the message from D6s School. They closed the school at 1PM because of a storm (Police told everybody to stay indoor). I told her that I picked D6 up early because D4 and I had taken the day off and visited S10 at his school. We talked a little about the storm and then she asked about what we had been doing at S10s School. I shared shortly but also decided that enough is enough.
I came out kind and definitely more informative than prior. I ended the call and this weird feeling of her trying to hang on or feeling odd about ending the call hit me once again.
Call lasted 2� min.

I once again find myself wondering about her actions and trying to creep inside her mind after all the interactions the last two weeks or so. This means that I am taking the focus off me and putting it on her and I will have to revert this.

I also now know one of the reasons this opening up a little is hard on me! I can�t measure it! Don�t call, don�t tell her anything, don�t visit her, don�t anything is easy to measure � this opening up is about how I comprehend and understand the term and afterwards how I apply it.

Melissa,
Thanks for your input � I will need to adjust as it goes along and then properly add patience

F, this whole sitch (all of our sitch's) are hard to measure at times. We don't know whether we are on the right track, doing well or messing it all up.
From what you have been writing, it does seem the track you are on is working. It definitely isn't on the track of not working.
Your W is noticing things with you, and I think that is why the phone calls and text. I think in her way she is checking the new you out. Are you this way all the time? Those type of questions to herself.
We will question ourselves, I think that is what the BD has done to us all. Made us think more.

HWA,

Good to hear from you! And good points as well! But as you also write - who the F knows anything.
I stick to this right now and as long as I feel fairly good or better about it!

And yes, we think more! To much sometimes

W texted yesterday at midnight and asked if I could come by and pick up D6s winterboots since it has gotten colder. I didn�t see it until this morning. I was busy and didn�t answer. In retro I could have but properly didn�t feel like it.
Then she called this morning and asked if I had seen her text. I don�t know why; but I told her no and asked what it was about. We sorted out the boots and she will set them off at D6s school. Then she asked why I don�t answer her texts and something about me always answering after a long period of time � like a day or so. I went defensive and told her that I tjeck my phone for texts at least once a day. It all came out calm, nice and pleasant but she seems a little annoyed about me not being that responsive. The lying and the defensive mode will have to go. I should simply have stated that �Yes I got your text� and when she asked �W, I was busy with the Ds�
Feel free to 2x4
After this she asked about the storm yesterday and how the house and garden handled it. I told her a little and not just �Fine�
Call lasted 2 min.

Another friend of mine came today and told me he got the ILYBINILWY-talk from his GF yesterday. When these things happens around me I get a picture of the movement I have gone through, the knowledge I have obtained and some of my new skills. So while I feel so sorry for him at the same time I feel good about the place I am at right now.

XW1 called today and told me that she had a crazy idea. Then she asked what I was doing for Christmas. I told her that IMO the best I could do was to keep it about me and the kids.
Then she asked how I would feel about me, XW1, W and the kids being together for Christmas.
I told her � perhaps a little to firm � to forget about this and that it wouldn�t happen. I caught my self being a little harsh and used a minute or to explain my standing and telling her that it was nice of her to think about me and the children.
I am still surprised but think I handled this OK � I could have done better but also worse! I listened and reacted � a break would have been a good idea.

It is hard for me to believe that XW1 and W haven�t talked about this idea � but who knows! One thing is certain � I do NOT feel like doing this!

Rest of the day has been nice!
Tomorrow it is Christmas party time. I am looking forward to this!

Do you ever wonder if XW1 is at the bottom of the your W's breakup with you? I mean, she plays nicy-nice to her, but she has pursued you ever since W left.

Sandi,

Haven't looked at it that way and honestly I do not feel pursued but I could just be blind!
I think XW1 and W cooked this one up, but (mindreading, yes!) I think they both want's cake! Anyway it's a cake I won't serve!

I simply do not know what's going on at the moment, but this was unexpected - some curveball

Weekend is over!
We had a great christmasparty yesterday! Good food, Christmas-tree, Santa looked by with candy for the kids�everything was great!

I am missing W awfully much these days and she is on my mind many many times a day. I have even for the first time in months taken myself in thinking about calling her (and backsliding). I won�t do it � just thinking it, and that tell something about how attached I still am.

Kids have been good but all the time I see situations where two parents would be better. That said I also find myself not being the optimal farther and at the same time realizing that I will never be that unless I win the lottery! That�s hurting me bad these days!

Still I am feeling up and quite good!

I still have some unsettled things that I need to sort out with W:
Financials � she still haven�t answered to this and it is now three months since I asked the first time.
Exchange server � she still needs to answer! She still has access.
Christmas � we still haven�t planned the days.

I have been thinking a lot about the Christmaspresent that she brought up. To be honest I don�t feel like receiving anything from her and I won�t buy her anything. I have bought canvas so the children can do a picture. I will properly talk to her about this next time we talk and settle things so none of us end up buying something and feeling awkward.

I have the christmascards almost ready and they will be great. Tomorrow I will ask a friend to go over them to make sure that wordings are nice and pleasant all the way through and that they can be misinterpreted as other than pleasant�.just to be absolutely sure!

Next week is a busy one: Work, GAL (meeting up with two distant but old pals!) and preparation for Christmas will take all my time.

Originally Posted By: Fartiltre

Financials � she still haven�t answered to this and it is now three months since I asked the first time.
Exchange server � she still needs to answer! She still has access.

F,

The exchange server issue has been going on for some time. My suggestion is for you to send W an email informing her that you will disconnect her from it in xxx time frame. This way, she is properly notified and act to make alternate arrangements on her own. Then at the said deadline, cut her off from the exchange server after sending out one final email on the day before as a reminder. It is as simple as that. W needs a dose of reality.

As for the financials, I would do this after the exchange server issue has been addressed and after the Xmas holidays. You don't want to have a tense discussion on financials around the holidays. Just table it until after the New Year.

Is this something that you would be comfortable doing at this stage? Seems to me that the discussions on exchange server has been going on and on and on.

I don't understand the need to cut her off the exchange server. What is the big deal about this? Is it just to make her 'face the reality' of leaving? If it is, honestly, I think it will just make you come across as a jerk, or angry and bitter if you keep bringing it up and it will not help your cause at all. If it gives her access to company information she shouldn't have, that is different.

I texted W today:

ME (14:11)
Hi
Ds have had a nice but busy weekend. D4 has been missing some and was rather sad this morning. D6 will possibly ask about filmnight tomorrow. It is all right with me, but entirely up to you. Let me know if it is all right. Say hi to the Ds.
Fartiltre

W (14:27):
Hey. Thanks for update. I think D4 is just having a bad period. She is almost sad everytime I set her off at kindergarten. But she is in general having a hard time saying goodbye. She get�s some extra hugs.
I hope you had a nice day Saturday. Weather was great

It�s fine with filmnight. I will talk to her and let you know. Are you still watching StarWars or have you changed kategori�? D6 has been having some bad dreams about death and destruction, buring houses and that we all die�! Have you thought about this being to early for her? It is called adult-starwars for a reason

Talk later

Me (14:37)
I have talked with D6 about it and first we agreed not to see Starwars. She has told about the dreams. She came on her own initiative and said that she would like to see it. I have told her to think about it and then ask you for permission if she still feel like it. I just wanted to inform you so you know that she might ask

Call from W
W called a minute later and we spoke for around 15 min.
At first she seems annoyed about the last sentence in the latter text I sended but after I explained that it was just to inform and that I meant nothing else she calmed down.
Then we discussed the StarWars. Calm and pleasant. She apologized for not telling me sooner about D6s bad dreams and I told her that I have seen nothing of this and that it is the first time D6 has talked about it. We exchanged views and solved the issue.

Until this point in the convo this seemed like her only reason to call but then she brought up the Christmas and planning. We quickly agreed on that 25/12 is the children�s day and that no shifting should be done there. Her birthday is 26/12 and she invited me to come over to her place. She would like the Ds to be there and I told her off course and that they should. I didn�t answer her invitation. She told me who she invited � Neighbors, my best friend and his W, MIL, SIL, but she didn�t mention others and frankly there won�t be room for more.
We normally attend church on the 26.12 and afterwards visit neighbors. We also talked a little about that and she stated that she is going. I didn�t say if we are going or not.
Then she invited herself to come to my place on the 23. I didn�t answer this as well.
She informed that she and Ds will go to XW1 for New Year�s eve. I told her that it sounded nice.
She asked about how the Christmasparty Saturday turned out, how many attended and so on. I told her a little about it.

The talk was much longer than normal. She talked most the time, but since I am now speaking more, the dialogue is more fluent. I still do not ask her questions other than about the children.

She seems so utterly gone when we talk like this. Her voice is calm, pleasant but cold, she seems to have it all figured out and she asks but doesn�t tell (I am opposite). During the call she stated that she finds it important that I do things like film-evenings without D4 and that she won�t do a second Christmas with the Ds. She seems like everything is just absolutely fine and she seems to be happy
I believe the call went OK all though she might be wondering why I didn�t make any decisions.
I feel like jumping into my car, drive to her place and then give her a big hug and a kiss without saying anything��and just hoping that this nightmare will end!

Wonka & LTH,
Thanks for advising me!
Wonka, you are so right � the money-issue should wait and it will!
LTH, you might just be right. She has a password to company exchange server, that I wouldn�t even give a dear friend. It�s a service that can be bought for 2 USD a month but at the same time I am properly out to make her face reality. I will leave the Exchange-server be for now.
�so I didn�t bring any of this up!
Wonka, I like your advice on the server issue, but for now I will talk to my partners about it. If they do not see a problem I will let W be there for some time. This is only because I hope to R � if I didn�t she would have lost access a long time ago.

Right now I am feeling like:
Having her over on the 23 and doing something nice and cozy for some hours with the children.

I do not feel like attending her birthday so I will properly decline this one.

I do not know where I am in regards of church and visit neighbors.
PROs: It is a nice day. It could be a nice day to show the meaning of family and doing things together � to W and to everybody else.
CONs: I won�t feel good about this � it will feel awkward. The children should not shift place there. The children will be all over her since they haven�t seen her for a week and that could make me feel left out! Neighbors, W and Ds will leave for Ws place to celebrate her birthday afterwards and S10 and I will not � that might seem strange to him and Ds.

I could also go contra on this one and invite her to come to my place an hour before church and then go along � that could take the edge off the children and make the exchange of bags easier and more comfortable.

ADVICE?

F,

It seems that W is starting to thaw despite some "coldness" in her voice. You are doing a good job of DBing and not asking W too many questions.

As for the invites, the best path is to go with the flow with W and accept her invites. Then showcase the best F in the best possible light which means new clothes, groomed, upbeat attitude, and make light hearted comments/jokes. We're all drawn to people who exude and radiate positiveness, right?

Since things are progressing nicely, I'd hold off on that exchange server thing. Otherwise you'd poke at the hornet's nest with this matter.

Keep asking yourself this question: Will this action/words bring me closer to the goal?

That has been the mainstay in my DBing skills whether it is with Ms. Wonka, my new hot girl, friends, and the workplace.

Validate, validate, validate! Defuse, defuse, defuse!

Here'e some helpful tips for you. I've kept a running list of validating statements and other gems gleaned from this site.

______________________________________
If W talks, just listen. Keep your questions impersonal.

WAS: I saw our friend Bob yesterday.
You: Oh? How is he doing?

WAS: I went out to that bar last weekend.
You: Did you have a good time?

WAS: I'm going to Tennessee this weekend.
You: Ok, I hope you have a nice time.

If W asks you questions, answer but be vague--don't launch into huge details.

WAS: How was your weekend?
You: Great, went out with some friends and had a good time.

WAS: Where were you last night?
You: I was at the gym.

WAS: What are you doing tonight?
You: Probably going out to dinner.

When I spoke to W this afternoon she told me she would let me know if D6 would come over for film tomorrow. She texted.

W (19:51): Hey. D6 would like to stay here tomorrow. We will just find another day. Have a nice evening and say hi to S10
Me (19:54): Ok�say hi to both
W (19:55): Will do

Wonka,
Thanks for the kind words about DBing and progress! Case is that it doesn�t feel that way right now. See, my W has been nice all along with very few exceptions, but I guess it�s all about patience. I do hope your judgment is better than mine

The sentences you wrote are great and easy implemented � that�s how I like it

This one - Will this action/words bring me closer to the goal? � on the other hand has been my biggest problem since all of this started. I simply make the wrong calls and therefore I am following advice from in here to the letter � if possible!

I am still in doubt about the invitations.

Hey F, still reading up on your sitch, just not able to respond the way I want to when at work.
Will be back online around the 19th or 20th in a better environment to communicate.

W called this afternoon.

She told me that D6 has been complaining about taking bath together with S10 and that he isn�t that fun to play with. I told W that I already had the talk with both of them and then I thanked her for putting this to my notice.
After this a silent time and then she shifted and talked about D4 being sad this morning. She was referring to D4 being sad Monday. I told W that D4 was expressing sadness when I left and that she told she was going to miss me. W said something like �Well, it can be a lot of other reasons. I also remember D6 being sad for a long time when she was younger and the adults at kindergarten agrees with me�. I told that I do to and that I only referred what D4 told me.

Then she started talking about D4 having guest over today and I told W that I already know this, that it sounds nice and so on. She told me how easy it is since she is in the city now and that D6 is having friends over a lot. She also said that it is nice that today D4 is having friends over since she tends to forget her.

I listened and answered shortly without stating anything � using some of Wonkas sentences � great!
The talk was calm and pleasant but held 3-4 odd silent periods that I chose not to break today.

The call lasted 3 min.

I didn�t talk about the invitations � I still hope for advice on these!

Good job, F!

Let's chat about the invitations thing. What's about it that is bugging you?

Wonka!
Thanks! - a lot!

To be short! The thing that is bugging me the most is that I seem to be making the wrong calls and that I have been doing this since the start of this. If I act on my feelings I backslide and if act on my brains it seems like I am playing games�sometimes I don�t know what is up and down

That�s why I decided to follow advice from Sandi as strictly as possible and I still do and will keep doing this until I don�t feel like it anymore! That decision has helped me tremendously!

Right now I am still LRT-dim but have opened up a little 7-10 days ago (I don�t know how well you know my sit). W is contacting me a lot and I contact her as little as possible but trying not be jerkish! I know from friends that W is sad and crying but she is always happy and upbeat with me. It seems like she has evolved into the master of PMA

If you need me to fill you in then let me know! My threads are awfully long!

The issue with these 2-3 invitations:
She invited me for her birthday and I believe that she would like me (and S10) to attend. I do not feel like attending, but�.:
Act on feelings: I don�t go
Act on brains: I maybe go (feeling awkward there will make it hard to ve fun, loose, alpha and so on)
Act on being nice: I do go
Focus on me: I don�t go
Focus on things that brings me closer to goal: I maybe go
The pro�s and con�s add up to a list that my brain simply can�t find heads and tails in!

Then she invited herself over on the 23.
That I am cool with. My place, good for the children and so on � all fine!

The church and neighbor thing is also on her birthday. Church is at 10, then some hours at neighbors and then birthday party.
I would love to attend the church and neighbor thing with the children - but without W.
I really do not think that�s the place to hand over children, bags and so on.
Children haven�t seen W for a week (besides 23) and they will eat her � that might make me feel left out!
If I do not attend the birthday then W, Ds and possible others will leave for her birthday and that might seem strange to S10.
I will feel awkward there.

That�s why I thought about inviting her to my place before the church and give the Ds some time to adjust. Then arrange something great with S10 so it won�t seem strange that we do not attend birthday.

�so what�s bugging me

I want to do right, I want to do what�s best for my children, for me and for the possibility of R � but I F it up a lot!

Wonka, thanks � I do hope the above make sense. It might seem like I am low on PMA, confidence and so on � I do not feel that�s the case at the moment. I just want to make the right calls and I do not have the experience and the knowledge to do this.

That said: I also have a hard time not reading anything into Ws actions at the moment. It was so much easier just declining everything

For the sake of interpretation (so I will understand what you meaning), when you say you don't "feel" like doing something (whatever the case might be)......how do you mean it?

For example, several times you have used that expression in regards to returning a call to your W, etc. Sometimes you have said it about not accepting an invitation from her. When you say you don't "feel" like going to her birthday party, what do you mean? Are you saying you think you may experience being uncomfortable? Or is it something else?

I just wanted to make sure I understand well.

About Christmas and W not have the kids for second year.......has something changed from the original plans for them to be with you? I thought I had read your post every day, but I may have missed something. Things have been kind of crazy for me the past three months.

Sandi,

In the case of her birthday it means I think I won�t feel comfortable and at ease there. I don�t trust myself to be able to act-as-if there in a manner that won�t easily be seen through.

I am now somewhat comfortable having her and the children over, talking on the phone and so � two months ago I wasn�t. If I am to meet up with W and perhaps MIL, SIL and others I would like for more time to pass.

At the same time I think this is a day she should experience without me! I have always done a lot for her on this day since nobody can normally attend. I have made flags, homemade buns and all of that � this year I won�t.

Its mainly that I don�t feel like it and at the same time I think it won�t hurt my sit � but honestly I don�t know.

No changes in Christmas plans. Kids are with me this year and Ws next year.
XW1 invited herself and W to come here but I declined. W has invited herself to come by on 23 and XW1 as well. I have told XW1 that she can come by on 22 and think I will have W over on 23.

I am sorry to read that things have been crazy � I hope the holiday will bring some peace and relaxation to you!

Thanks!

F
P.S. Just read your post on Crimsons � fantastic post and an eye-opener!

Thanks F.

I have been caring for my ill mother. Holding down a job while tending to two households is not easy these days. Not complaining b/c I am so thankful to still have my mom!

I agree with your decisions on the invitations for the holidays. If you do not feel comfortable about attending W's birthday party, then don't go. Since you have accepted the other invitations she has presented, I think it would be fine to graciously decline the BD party. Frankly, at this point in the stitch, if she should be so bold as to ask why you won't attend....I believe you should tell her that it could be sending mixed messages about the two of you being a couple if you were to show up at her party.

If she wants to comment on your statement, then she has the opportunity. Think about what you may say, in case she does. She may turn it around and ask you how you would feel if they (the guests) wondered if you were getting back together. IDK. But remember, any time you aren't sure what to say, just tell her you would need to think about it.

Sandi,

Sorry to hear about your mother. I hope she will have a fast recovery and be back on her feet for Christmas. I can imagine that you are having a crazy time so I thank you deeply for still taking your time looking in on me.

I will accept that she comes here on 23. and I will make it as Christmas-like and cozy as possible. I will tell her this next time she calls.
I will not attend her birthday, but right now I feel like asking her to come here before church (on her birthday) and then go to church and neighbors together. I might change my mind on this one so I will hold answering this for some days.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

I believe you should tell her that it could be sending mixed messages about the two of you being a couple if you were to show up at her party.

I hope you will expand a little on this one. I don�t see this myself � perhaps a little to the children. Are they who you are talking about when you mention mixed signals. Do you want me to say something like:
W, You made the decision to brake us up and I don�t want to confuse the children or others about the two of us � me attending a little private birthday might just do exactly that
�or something like that.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

She may turn it around and ask you how you would feel if they (the guests) wondered if you were getting back together. IDK.

I don�t know either, but I don�t think that will be her comment. I will prepare for it but I think she might come back with something wondering like �What do you mean?� and perhaps a little angry �We were supposed to be a family after this � we promised the children� but I am OK with that. I do not fear her or her reactions anymore.
I will prepare!

Originally Posted By: Sandi

But remember, any time you aren't sure what to say, just tell her you would need to think about it.

Rule no. 1 in my life these days

Thanks a lot!

F

I am not sure if I would approach it with any detail. I would personally go with something more like this

Originally Posted By: Fartiltre

W, You made the decision to brake us up and I don�t want to confuse the children or others about the two of us � me attending a little private birthday might just do exactly that .....Thank you for the party invitation, but I will have to take a rain check this time

^^^ Yep, KISS. Keep it Short and Simple.

What? Did you think I meant to kiss you, F??!!

SP, Thanks for posting and advising! I understand why you write what you do and I will take it into consideration.
Wonka, Yup, I believe you have on major secret crush on me � but it is a little to soon for the kissing

Lets start with cake and amaretto!

The reason for my suggestion is that I have been advised to aim focus on her decision to D. Futhermore I will only explain if she asks directly. So I will properly go with the raincheck/KISS at first but if she asks I will clarify. I will have to think some about this, so once again time is my friend!

Thanks both!

I had a session at shrink today � good session! She told me that I am backsliding in regards of me. That I am falling back and putting focus back on W and she is right � funny thing is that she only tells me what I already know, but it is nice to have a person to talk with and she is good at sparring. We talked about what worked a month ago and what have changed � we agreed on Ws many contacts, me getting hope up and me opening up a little could be the causes. Her advice was to back of a little, but that will be hard since W is doing most the contacts. At the same time this is opposite to the advice in here � it is a narrow path

What a big surprice

Originally Posted By: Fartiltre

W, You made the decision to brake us up and I don�t want to confuse the children or others about the two of us � me attending a little private birthday might just do exactly that

Let's go back to your very first post:

Quote:

But it all started when our first daughter was born. I didn�t pay enough attention to neither child nor mom � I worked. I was always busy with other things! I have been this way my whole life and now I have lost 3 girlfriends on that account. The first 2 was not that big a deal but this one I love, I want to spend the rest of my life with her and I am fed up with myself and the whole situation.
Through the hole period of troubled times we have been talking every 3-6 months about what is wrong but it has only been talking � I haven�t made the changes that I should have. My girlfriend has felt left alone and her dream about a core family has been wrecked! My fault!

Clearly in that first post you were owning your faults in the R, but now it appears that you want to shift the blame to your W. Do you think that's fair to her?

AS,
Thanks for commenting!

Back in late august when I started LRT I had major problems with exactly this. Sandi and LTH advised me to put focus on Ws decision and I felt that was blaming her in doing so. I still have a hard time with this since I find it hard to word a sentence that put focus on her decision and doesn�t blame her at the same time. That�s why I posted the sentence � to get opinions or even better other suggestions.

The kinds ladies even posted several examples of sentences that I could use back in august and in fact I thought the sentence I wrote was ok since I took parts of examples from then and tried to combine these with Sandi2s advice from yesterday.

I do not blame W for making the decision! I understand why she did it!
The quote you posted still goes � I did exactly that and feel responsible as being the reason for her decision.

Thanks!
F

F- I haven't read every post on your thread so apologies if I was suggesting something that conflicts with other advice. I was trying to read the message from your W's perspective and I feel like she would perceive it as you blaming her. It is true that she made the decision to break up the R, but no doubt she felt that it was a last-ditch effort to get out of what she perceived was a bad R. So in her eyes it's your fault. If you try to lay blame on her it's likely to backfire and make her think "he still doesn't get it". In my opinion the DB approach is not to lay blame or do anything to "wake them up", but rather just to become independent of them. That's why I liked SP's response, it would send a message to your W more like "F is a busy guy and doesn't have time to accept your invitation right now", which is a more DB response than what you posted.

F4MW,

The trick is to allow W do most of the contacts and initiating the convos. Be aloof yet available like a friendly co-worker. They're overwhelmed and very confused with a good mixture of anger. So keeping things simple and superficial help a long way. It takes time for the WAS' perception, feelings, and thoughts to slowly shift. Consistent actions and permanent 180s are the key in drawing back the WAS.

AS,

Originally Posted By: AS

F- I haven't read every post on your thread so apologies if I was suggesting something that conflicts with other advice.

It has been a long journey and some long threads so don�t even go there!

I read most of your post and I like your views � this also goes for your post here. I don�t even think the advice you have given and the advice received earlier conflicts that much. What I do think is that I am a lousy ballplayer when it comes to many aspects of DBing and one of these aspects is wording sentences like this.

Originally Posted By: AS

I was trying to read the message from your W's perspective and I feel like she would perceive it as you blaming her.

I agree with you! To me it also sounds blaming and W just might comprehend it that way. This is the exact reason for me posting it � I would like advice and help on this, and I got it.

I am still confused about what to say but that�s due to me and not your or others advice.
So please�do not apologize!!! The help I have received from you and many others on this forum has saved me from F�ing up my own and my children�s life. Thanks!

Wonka,
Thanks for chiming in again � how is that crush on me these days

Please explain this one �F4MW� � what does that mean?

Originally Posted By: Wonka

The trick is to allow W do most of the contacts and initiating the convos.

I am doing this and have been since late august. She is contacting me a lot and when I compare to other sits in here A LOT, but IMHO she is only doing this to get cake. She want�s family time and she has planned on this since BD. I am not mindreading � she stated this. She want�s Christmas, new year, weekly dinners�all of it and she went rather angry when I turned her down. I still don�t think she wants me � only some of my time. I hope this change and since I am only 9 months in and still have the patience.

Originally Posted By: Wonka

Consistent actions and permanent 180s are the key in drawing back the WAS.

I know this as well � I have been told many times in here! I am trying to be as consistent as possible but in some areas I find it hard since I am changing. I have read a lot, been in here countless hours, had DB-coaching, I started seeing a shrink 6 months ago�.I am changing and that kills consistent in some areas. I am confused about myself and I transfer this to others.
If W came tomorrow and asked for R � I honestly wouldn�t know what to reply. I do not feel ready. I want her back but I want myself back first.
Bla bla � hopes it makes sense!

Thanks both! Your words, opinions and guidance are as always much appreciated!

F

Originally Posted By: Fartiltre

Wonka,
Thanks for chiming in again � how is that crush on me these days

Please explain this one �F4MW� � what does that mean?

Busted! I guess it's time to confess. I've been writing love notes to F4MW behind your back.

Two bombs in one year for me! Cr@p!
Before you abandon me and go to live with F4MW please have the courtesy of telling me who it is

I'll post what a little girl wrote that sums up how I feel about you and F4MW.

"Dear Ashley,

would you please be my girlfriend I like you a lot.

Yes No
Maybe

Damit!!! I need that dang edit button badly.

I'll post what a little girl in elementary school wrote that sums up how I feel about you and F4MW.

_________________________________

Dear Ashley,

would you please be my girlfriend I like you alot.

Yes No

Maybe

ps. please put yes no or maybe

[girl circles No and writes her response below]

I'm sorry I already have a boyfriend Kyle [lastname white-out] but when we break up your my next choice.

p.s. that will proboby be a month or two

________________________________________

Go on and look it up. The note was posted through Reddit. Funny!

Am I the only one not getting this?

-PM

Ok, I give in! It's so good I have learned about patience and mindreading

PM,

F4MW is another poster here in the Newcomers section. Hope you see this more clearly now.

My true 'secret crush' is very much with FY and T.

F is just trying to butter me up.

Just hung up with S10 who told me that he and XW1 has been visiting W this evening!
While I believe this to be good for the children it also seems like W is getting her cake elsewhere! I don't know how I feel about this in regards of the future with or without R but it seems like I will just have to come to terms with the fact that the two of them are tuning in.

What a mess all of this is for friends, family and so on. Her family is backing her up as they should but everybody else is still close with both of us.

Haven�t spoken to W for some days now and I feel a little hopeless. Her pursuing seems to have stopped for now.

I visited a friend Wednesday, cancelled another appointment with another friend Thursday, did a pubcrawl and stayed over at a third friend yesterday and today I have been at S10 school, had lunch at one of Ws best friends and her H and in an hour or so a fourth friend is coming to my place and staying over! I am GALing my a$$ off and I think I have done a good job GALing the lasts months, but W is on my mind constantly! I miss her and I love her!

I am on the way down on the roller coaster and I feel my hope diminishing these days. She just seems gone! So I will once again put on the happy face and act-as-if, apply time and patience and put the focus on me! This is not a marathon these days � it feels more like a 100K endurance run in Sahara so I will put on my sunglasses

I called W today to talk with D6 about wishes for Christmas. She didn�t pick up so I texted and asked her to get D6 to call me. An hour later D6 called and we talked and hung up. 5 min later D4 called and chatted. Nice to hear from them and talk to them. I miss them. Talked to both but W didn�t come to the phone and I didn�t ask her to.

I will have to call W tomorrow or Monday and get the Christmas sorted out. I owe her some answers. I haven�t changed my mind so I will stick to the plan. I am planning on taking the children to a movie on the 25 and have been thinking about asking W to join but once again this will just be serving her cake that she haven�t even asked for so I properly wont.

Sandi,
Can I have your opinion on a sentence like this:
W, You made the decision to brake us up and I don�t want to confuse the children or others about the two of us � me attending a little private birthday might just do exactly that

Thanks
F

The turmoil is still increasing!

I had a friend staying over and he just left. I made us a nice dinner and we just talked all evening and shared a lot of red wine yesterday. Never left the kitchen. It was nice. He spilled that he and others are talking about me and that they see and feel me changing a lot. At some point he even asked me if I had considered that all of these changes might cost me friends because I am turning in to somebody else.

I received an email yesterday late afternoon from W but didn�t see it until today.

In subject line "A drawing from D4 to daddy :-)"
The email contained a drawing that D4 did on the computer, Ws auto signature and nothing else.

I answered

Hi sweet D4
Thank you so much for the fine drawing. I got very happy when I received it.
We might print it out and hang it on the wall together.
Say hi to mom and D6 many times
Dad

These days I wonder if I am too withdrawn.

F, I am right there with you. My H came over for Thanksgiving, and acted like he did when he still lived here, rubbing my shoulders while I was cooking, happy, hanging out as a family, we ML after dinner. Since then - big time quiet. A few hit and run texts where I assume he was just checking to see if he could still pull my strings (once I answered, he stopped). But other than that pretty much only contact is re: kids.

I guess he did say he wants to spend Xmas as a family, and we are going out together tonight . . . but other than that, I feel like he is moving farther away and it makes me feel very nervous. I love my H and miss him too. It $ucks.

My DB coach says to expect that after some forward movement by WAS, there will be a step or two back. She also says that quiet isn't bad - it means he/she is thinking. If your last interactions were good, that's what you have left her with to think about, so at least there's that, right?

Then I do the same as you, and wonder if I am the one who is backing off.

I guess you can always test and check, right? Send her a little text or email, something funny and light, and see if/how she responds.

Maybe this is wishful thinking, but I am not convinced that all WASs think they are in the driver's seat as much as we feel they are. Even though they have asked for space and we are giving it to them, that doesn't mean that we need to put the entire burden on them to reconnect. Depends on the situation, of course, but where the WAS is friendly and things seem to be going fine, but he/she has been quiet, I don't think that reaching out in a test and check fashion is a big risk.

On an unrelated note, I noticed some of the European folks here use the word "properly" in a way that we Americans do not. I am trying to figure out what it means. Does it mean "probably" or "rightly"? Or something else? Just curious.

Melissa,

Thank you so much! I really really needed a post like this!
I have just looked up properly and I can see why you are confused. I use it as �might�. �I might do it� is the same as �I will properly do it�

Originally Posted By: Melissa

I guess you can always test and check, right? Send her a little text or email, something funny and light, and see if/how she responds.

I have committed myself to not test and check so I won�t (until I will) and at the same time I wouldn�t know what to text her. I haven�t sent W anything for almost 4 months now � unless it is about the children or practical�s.
She did text today � I will post that shortly! It�s nothing major!
For now I will just remember this: My DB coach says to expect that after some forward movement by WAS, there will be a step or two back.
I knew but forgot � Thank you so much for reminding me. Helps me keep the hope!
Thanks
F

Text today
W (12:49)
Hey. On Thursday they have a special lunch at D4 and she is supposed to bring 10 NOT cooked chicken legs. Have a nice Sunday

Me (15:10)
I will handle that. Thanks and right back at you � big hugs for the Ds

W (15:13)
Deal

they say hello
It�s a little hard to translate but her wordings are loose, pleasant, nice and smileys in both.

I will call her tomorrow and
1. Get the Christmas days planned. I haven�t changed my mind.
She can come here on the 23.
She comes here the 26 and we go together to church.
S10 and I will not attend her birthday.

2. Invite her to the movie. I feel like inviting her to join me and the kids for a movie on the 25 and if I still feel like that tomorrow I properly will. I haven�t initiated anything for almost 4 months and perhaps it is time.
Thoughts or advice?? Am I just serving cake?

3. I will also tell her that I am sending out Christmas-cards. We have done this together since we met and I think it will hurt her (Call it mindreading or caring). I have been soul-searching a lot to be sure that I am not doing this for any other reason than making me feel good. I do not want to hurt W but at the same time I will not withhold myself on something like this just because she might get hurt.

F,

Do you still have a coach? Are you making the small gestures and moves towards W that were discussed recently? Could it be that she isn't answering her phone, adding anything to the email except the picture, etc. because that is what she is getting from you?

MWD says to adjust what isn't working. Do you feel that what you are doing is working? Do you see any adjustments you can make?

LRT is to show them you are moving on but you are supposed to show them the new & improved you, be friendly, etc. Sometimes it does seem as if you are very withdrawn from W and it doesn't always sound like think it sends the message you want to.

LTH,
Thanks once again!

Originally Posted By: LTH

Do you still have a coach?

Yes, I spoke with her some weeks ago. She told me that I was on the right path. She told me the same as you, Sandi and others have done.

Originally Posted By: LTH

Are you making the small gestures and moves towards W that were discussed recently?

I have opened up when we talk! I try not to be as withdrawn and I try to be more kind but I haven�t initiated anything.

Originally Posted By: LTH

Could it be that she isn't answering her phone, adding anything to the email except the picture, etc. because that is what she is getting from you?

I think she didn�t answer simply because she was busy or didn�t hear it. She normally answers and when I text I normally get response very quickly.
�but YES, she could also be doing this because she gets nothing from me.

Originally Posted By: LTH

MWD says to adjust what isn't working. Do you feel that what you are doing is working?

THIS is my biggest problem! I see small things that could be positives, it could be nothing and it could be her just wanting the family-cake. I simply don�t know! When I am up I read her doings as her softening a little and when I am down I see her making her new life without me. All the business with XW1 could be W establishing the family-time I wouldn�t give her.
All in all I do not see her moving towards me (as I write this). I see her waving, I get hugs, she is always kind�and so on! At the same time I hear that she is sad and crying. I do not know how to read these things.
I could ask friends that talk with her about how she is and get clearance, but I see this as snooping and therefore I have not done it.

Originally Posted By: LTH

Do you see any adjustments you can make?

I can open more!
I can be even more talkative.
I can do things with her and I can initiate them. I haven�t initiated anything for months!
I could invite her to come along sometimes
I can tell her more about what the kids and I are doing.
I can respond quicker.
I think the keyword is: Initiate.
But isn�t this serving cake?

I could start asking her about her life
I could show some interest towards her life
Keyword here is: Interest.

As I have read the advice give and MWD initiating and interest isn�t what I want to do � but I just might have gone overboard on both. That does sound like me

Other than initiating and interest I wouldn�t know what to do, but I am SOOO open to suggestions!

Originally Posted By: LTH

LRT is to show them you are moving on but you are supposed to show them the new & improved you, be friendly, etc. Sometimes it does seem as if you are very withdrawn from W and it doesn't always sound like think it sends the message you want to.

That�s also my fear and I agree!

Do you think I should start initiating and show more interest in her life?
Can you give me some examples of the small gestures?

Thanks a million!
F

This will be long, but two things happened yesterday!
(I know there is mindreading in this, but that�s me trying to explain what I felt and think � not what I am acting on!)

I received a text yesterday morning from W about some practical�s about scouting and birthdays. She ended the text with something about her setting the Ds off this morning and that it went fine.

I called W a little later and we talked for 45 min.

I started out by commenting on her text and we talked a little about setting D4 off at kindergarten.

Then I said that we have to plan Christmas.

I began with the church-thing and explained that I do not see it fit to shift the Ds there and that I think it would be better if she came out here first.

Then W said �D6 asked: does daddy come to the birthday�

I told her that I won�t and then shifted back to the church, the Ds and the shift at church.

Then she told me that MIL will be there and I told W that she can just bring her along

W: �Will you not go to the church then?�
Me: �Yes, off course and then S10 and I will go back home afterwards�

This part of the convo was a little odd. Breaks and so! She seemed disappointed about me and S10 not coming to the birthday, but she didn�t state anything. She didn�t ask why we wouldn�t join the party.

Then I shifted to the 25/12 and the movie. I told her that I planned to take the kids and then said �If you feel like it you are welcome to join us�
She seemed a surprised, but gave a pleasant �Yes, that would be super-nice�

I left it there and moved on to the 23/12 and told her that she was most welcome and that we could do some buns or likewise and just hang out with the children.

Then I told her that I am sending out Christmas cards and asked for SILs address. W got a little quiet but gave me the address.
She didn�t comment further on this.

All of this took 6-7 min. I think this part of the convo went OK but listening to it afterwards I come out a little weak: Long breaks, hard to find the words, tone and so

Then a pause�.

W: �What about presents��
Me: �What do you mean�.�
W: �Just so we do not give the same��
Me: �Ahh��
�..and then I went through the presents I have bought while she commented.

W talked a lot during this part about D6 doing this and that.

She asked about the gift for D6 and I told her that I am getting her a toolbox. She told me that she has been considering the same but if I am giving this she won�t.

Break in convo and then�.

W: Have you heard about [mutual friend].
Me: Yes I had lunch there Saturday

(Our mutual friend is one of Ws best friend and she just got fired)

We talked some about this. I told W about my views
This part was hard because it was about ending relationships.

I told W that �The Boss has not wanted the dialogue or to search for common ground, she hasn�t discussed her views��"

I didn�t feel well stating this since W might feel pressured by it.

Then W shifted towards D4 and the general troubles at the kindergarten. I told W my views on this and she agreed to them.

Then I asked �Have you had a nice weekend?�
W talked about all kind of things they have been doing together for some time.

Afterwards she talked about all the friends D6 are playing with and visiting.

Me: �I will have to go now?�
W: �I had a total computer breakdown Friday�
Me: �OK, what does that mean�

Then she explained about that.

W: �And then I have talked with somebody about renting a little office�
Me: �Sounds interesting�.�

Then W started talking about her job-situation and changing this. She complained a lot about her second job and told that she wants to focus on her own business.

Me: �Then it is back to own business again?�
W: �Looks that way�
Me: �Then just do it!� (with a smile/positive!)

Then something about her own business, customers and that it is going great.

Me: �Now I will leave � I have to go to the postoffice �
W: �Yes � do that�
Me: �We have a meeting out here all day so I am in a hurry now!�
W: �Ohh, you have a meeting. How are things at work?�

I told her about the uncertainty at work these days, about a friend getting single and that I don�t feel I have the time needed these days. I ended this with ��so I am really looking forward to a vacation.� I also told her that it will be hard not to have the children around but that the schedule is filled with other stuff.

Me: �Ok lets end it here�
W: �Yes, F � it�s ok� (With compassion as I heard it)
Me: �You will get back to me on the Christmas days?�
W: �What do you mean?�
Me: "We have to get the 23 settled and what to do that day�
W: "Yes, off course � only challenge will be D4 and saying goodbye�
Me: �She will get very sad�
W: �Perhaps we can soften it up someway�
Me: �Yes, and we should. I talk a lot with D4 these about all of this.�

Then we talked about D4 being sad but also that she shows. I told W that I wish for D6 to do the same. W tried to explain D6 being sad:

W: �I just think there is so much going on in D6s life with school, new friends and so�
Me: �I totally agree but when I look at D6 I see that she is sad�
Break
W: �I also think she is sad and that�s totally natural�

Then W told about D6 making a drawing of a heart and writing the first letter of my name and Ws name in it and asking W how to spell sweethearts. W had asked her what the letters stood for and D6 gave her our names. Then they had laughed and W had said �but that isn�t entirely truth�.� To D6 that answered �No but once you were�. W told me that something comes out this way and we were sweethearts once.

We had a long talk about this. W stated that she is not that worried several times and that she is sure
D6 still states that she is sad, that she misses. W doesn�t see it as problem. I told W that I am in doubt about this, that I have considered finding a professional that D6 can talk with.
We talked about this for around 10 min.

MY THOUGHTS:
It seems like I end the subjects and then W picks up a new one. She likes to talk to me but she seems so totally gone during a convo like this.
She expresses happiness, that things are great, that her concerns about the Ds isn�t that big�and so on.

I come out a little silent, very thinking, I listen and comment.

I find it hard talk to W about the Ds missing and hurting. We do not see this, the same way and that just might be the result of our own situation and feelings. The truth is between our views but discussing it feels like putting pressure on her. I might see the children hurting more than they really are and vice versa.

I can�t figure out what I think about a convo like this with regards to pressure, going dim and so. Some part of me thinks this was a huge mistake and another part thinks that I have to show her a little of the new me sometimes.

WOW! BIG WOW!!
Yesterday I had to partners that also are two of my best friends over.
We had a business meeting all day and then dinner and talk. At some point one of them looked at me and out of the blue said something like �F, if I am ever going to go through what you have � I hope I am able to do it the way you have.� Then these two guy�s used 5-7 min praising me, telling me how good it is to see me work on me, expressing which changes they see. They simply stated that from their POV I am do an outstanding job. One of them said: "You have always been a rock in my life as a friend and businesspartner and you are right back being that again." They see my 180s. They said so many nice things to me! I listened to this with tears in my eyes. (Get them again writing this) Afterwards I thanked them deeply.
This lifted me so much!

F, I think that conversation sounds fine! I wouldn't spend too much time trying to mind read. I think it is nice that you invited her to the movie and she immediately responded with an enthusiastic 'yes.' Instead of viewing the conversation as "she seems happy without me," maybe look at it is as a good interaction between the two of you. Also, look what happened. You decided to reach out a bit, and she responded positively. See how that movie goes. If it goes well, why not reach out again? Just in little ways. See what transpires.

I think another low risk way to test and check is to send a funny text or email, maybe forwarding a link of a story that reminded you of her, or tell her something funny that happened, or whatever. Or even something about the kids that is funny?

I'm glad your friends shared their thoughts and compliments with you - it does feel so good to have the support of others, doesn't it? And you are lucky to have RL friends who aren't bashing your W or telling you to move on.

F, it sounds like things are going well, keep up the forward momentum in baby steps until she gives you a sign to stop. Just my $.02.

Hi F, I am reading and keeping up on your posts. Even though your W has not asked (yet)why you won't attend her party, I wanted to get back to your question. But first, I'll copy and paste what I said.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Sandi
I believe you should tell her that it could be sending mixed messages about the two of you being a couple if you were to show up at her party.

Again, due to translation, I can see how you may misunderstand, Plus, I really didn't go into it detailed enough for you. Now your version.......

Quote:

Sandi,
Can I have your opinion on a sentence like this:
W, You made the decision to brake us up and I don�t want to confuse the children or others about the two of us � me attending a little private birthday might just do exactly that

Omit telling her "W, You made the decision to brake us up and I
don�t want to confuse the children or others". If you word it that way, it will incite her anger toward you. It is not your goal to make her mad at you, but rather drive your point home without sounding judgmental and punitive. Really, it would be better to ask her with a leading question, instead of just "telling" her what it might do. If you "ask" her in a kind way (almost charming), "Couldn't it (meaning your attendance at the party)send mixed messages about the two of us being a couple again?" You say nothing about the children or anyone else. Don't use the words "you" nor say what "I" want, etc. By asking her if attending her party "could" send mixed messages, you aren't pointing a judgmental/punitive finger at her and verbally blaming her for the children's pain, etc. Trust me, that is exactly how it would sound to her ears! Plus, then if you go on to add that self-righteous F doesn't want to do what she's apparently done to add hurt/confusion......oh, then you've really set yourself up for trouble.

I know. You didn't see any of that in your answer, right?

But you see, she still gets the message how "she has caused this stitch" without you actually giving her cause to be angry at what you have said in words. You are saying it very charming. Plus, it puts it on her back. You didn't have to give her a flat out "no", but you've already done it, so you may not get a chance to apply what I suggested. But next time, you lead by asking her a question. Then, she has to answer it. That "could" open the door for some flirty conversation, or not, IDK. But I see it being a much more friendly way of dealing with this type of invitation.

Can you see the difference in the two answers? Your objective at this point of your stitch is not to verbally remind her that she is to blame for everyone's unhappiness and now she has to live with it. She is already living with a great deal of it (according to reports from friends) and if you still desire reconciliation, then you need to work on being warm and charming. You charmed your way into her heart the first time......do it again.

Remember, I told you that you would take small steps to see if she warmed toward you. This is the time to do it. The holidays present opportunities. Initiate an invitation to the movies. Keep things friendly and warm during the holiday season. If she turns cold or pulls away, then you step back some. At the beginning of January, you can evaluate. If positives continue, you may even take a chance of asking her to the movies without the kids. And.....if she accepts, make sure you get XW1 to babysit. (ha)

Melissa,
Thanks once again for kind words and advice.
I am having a hard time adjusting from withdrawn/dim to this new thing with talking, initiative and so - you know what I mean.
The two friends gave me a major boost yesterday and I think they just might have turned a down into an up. That should help me in regards of Christmas mood

Sandi,
Thanks for replying! You clarified a lot for me but as usual I still have some questions.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

I know. You didn't see any of that in your answer, right?

It seems like I am ALWAYS at least one step behind. I must be very slow

The answer to this one is yes and no. I didn�t see what you explained but I did see the sentence as blaming or pointing at her decision�but I thought I was supposed to do this. See, Sandi � I try to follow advice to the word so when you say left I go left and continue to do so until you say right.
I totally get the thing about the question and if I get the chance I will do this. I will not try to point directly at her decision anymore.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

Can you see the difference in the two answers?

I certainly can!

Originally Posted By: Sandi

You charmed your way into her heart the first time......do it again.

I did and I do want for both me and W to have the chance of R.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

Remember, I told you that you would take small steps to see if she warmed toward you. This is the time to do it.

Yes, I do remember!
She hasn�t declined an invite yet all though I have declined almost everything. She is nice and pleasant�bla bla � you know it all! ? I might be blind but I still see her as gone and I do not see her warming up � I see only her interest in being friendly and having cake. I have never tried anything like this and it might just be me!
Are you seeing her warm towards me?
When you write small steps I really need some examples!
Are we talking about a walk-by-touch? A littler firmer hug when I see her? More invitations?
I have been more pleasant, talkative and so for the last weeks but this seems like almost pursuing. And if at some point I ask her to a movie or a cup of coffee I would definitely think that I am pursuing.
I could at some point invite her to my home and tell her to stay and tug in the Ds � that would give us some time just for us.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

She is already living with a great deal of it (according to reports from friends)

These reports are some weeks old now. I see asking friends about W as snooping but I certainly can do this � should I?

Originally Posted By: Sandi

And.....if she accepts, make sure you get XW1 to babysit.

You know what! I just might do exactly that

I hope your mother is recovering well!
F

Quote:

I didn�t see what you explained but I did see the sentence as blaming or pointing at her decision�but I thought I was supposed to do this. See, Sandi � I try to follow advice to the word so when you say left I go left and continue to do so until you say right.

We have been over, under, and around this issue.

But for the record.....once and for all..... you are NOT to word any blame, punishment, or judgment. If she "gets" it figured out (in other words, she gets the message)without you wording it, that's great. If she doesn't get it, you still do not put it in words. Why is this not clear? I did not say that you should tell her that since she broke up the M and causing pain for the children that you were not attending the party!!! I hope she understands the equation, but you don't have to literally spell out the words to her.

Again, let me try to make myself understood. You must move with the stitch. If you wish to ever reconcile, you must not stay stuck on the same actions that you were doing while in the LRT.......or there will never be a reconciliation! At one time, you may have been told to stop doing this or that......but as time goes on, there will be a shift and you need to slowly make another change. So don't tell me how you follow advice to the word, when I have told you this more than once.

Quote:

She hasn�t declined an invite yet all though I have declined almost everything.

But I told you back some time ago to not decline almost everything during December, unless things were not good between you. The only thing that I have precisely advised not accepting lately has been the birthday party. I could try to explain all my reason behind that advice, but frankly, I'm a bit discouraged in doing so. And, for the record, just b/c you decline a BD party this month does not mean that you decline every party next month. Your action of declining the intimate party was to send a message to your W that the two of you are not a "couple" and you aren't playing that scene. However, you aren't to preach to her, either.

Quote:

When you write small steps I really need some examples!
Are we talking about a walk-by-touch? A littler firmer hug when I see her? More invitations?

Two out of your three examples were physical touch. No touchy-feely stuff yet. You don't even know if she'll go to the movies with you! Besides, if the woman is interested, she'll want to go to the movies with you without kids alone. IMHO, that will come before she wants all the touchy-feely steps.

An example of a small step is inviting her to something that is casual and with the kids. The movies with kids is a good first step. She's coming over before Christmas, maybe she would like it if you actually planned the evening, instead of her having to tell you what to do. She seemed a bit taken back when you told her that the two of you needed to "discuss" the 23rd (or whatever day it is). Why must it have an agenda? Relax and just show her a good time while she's there. Make dinner, play some games with the kids, whatever. But stop acting like a stiff shirt when she's around.

You keep talking about her eating cake. I like to have never made you understand that that's what she wanted, and now you see everything she does as her cake eating. And, I agree that she is. However, can you just try to lay it down for a few days b/c I think you are becoming too rigid for Christmastime.

Quote:

I have been more pleasant, talkative and so for the last weeks but this seems like almost pursuing.

I know, I keep up. You have not pursued. You've been nice. That's all. I

F, I know a few months ago that I was telling you not to make Christmas plans as she was wanting to do at that particular time. It probably confuses you that now I'm encouraging you to cautiously warm toward her a little bit (through the next couple of weeks). It is not b/c I've changed my mind about everything that I say these things. It is b/c of how she has been and what her friends has said about her. I am saying to take a little chance but don't push it and go hog wild. You men tend to think in a "all or nothing" mentality but it doesn't work when you are DBing. You make a little step and then sometimes you have to stand still, or step back, before you can make another little step forward.

Quote:

These reports are some weeks old now. I see asking friends about W as snooping but I certainly can do this � should I?

No.

Quote:

I hope your mother is recovering well!

Oh, thank you much. I am very, very tired. Maybe after the holidays things will be better. I sure hope so.

F, I hope you won't be offended but your recent posts remind me of Cyrano de Bergerac.

You have got to trust yourself more!! Your W fell in love with you once; why can't she again? Remember your good times, relax and just allow yourself to enjoy her company. There is a lot of room there before you get to "eating her arm off" status.

Sandi & Melissa,

First of all � I do in fact feel like Cyrano many days!
I have discovered my own nose and it stands so clear every time I look in the mirror these days. Every book I read, every session I have at shrink makes my nose bigger.
I write this with a smile and a tear. It is great that I see it, that I can work it, but I simply can�t stand looking at it

Sandi, I know what you wrote � I have been over your post over and over! I still have major problems in understanding putting the focus on her decision contra putting blame on her.
The solution right now is not to put focus on it since I will come out blaming. That�s also why I posted here before saying anything.
Another problem is this �You must move with the stitch.� I have done a terrible job at this � It seems like I simply don�t get when to take the next step and what the next step is.
That�s why I try to follow advice.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

So don't tell me how you follow advice to the word, when I have told you this more than once.

I agree that you have told me many times � but seeing when to follow, when to open up, when to pursue a little is the hard part. I don�t get it!

Originally Posted By: Sandi

But I told you back some time ago to not decline almost everything during December, unless things were not good between you.

I agree and I have followed. She invited herself here on the 23, church at 26 and birthday. I have declined her birthday as the only thing in December.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

However, can you just try to lay it down for a few days b/c I think you are becoming too rigid for Christmastime.

Done!

Originally Posted By: Sandi

I am saying to take a little chance but don't push it and go hog wild.

No hogs

If I figure out something to do � I will do it!

Originally Posted By: Sandi

You men tend to think in a "all or nothing" mentality but it doesn't work when you are DBing.

That�s me to the point!

Originally Posted By: Melissa

I used to have the confidence of the Lion-king but it vanished � not at BD, but before! I am working it and it is getting better and better but it sure is hard when W is around. I think what both of you are telling me is do not eat her arm but try taking a tiny bite of her little finger

Thanks both!
I appreciate this so much! Sandi; I am sorry if I make you feel like you are repeating yourself endlessly.

F

Originally Posted By: Fartiltre

Another problem is this �You must move with the stitch.� I have done a terrible job at this � It seems like I simply don�t get when to take the next step and what the next step is.

OK, F. You know this is bad when it's coming from me, the world's worst overanalyzer. You are thinking waaayyyyyy too much.

I know, it happens. I do it, too. And then I take a step back, and I look at it objectively. I pretend that it is someone else asking the question, and me giving the advice. And then the answer is so simple.

Stop overthinking every step. Remember that one interaction is not going to make or break things. When in doubt, just be quiet. That can never hurt you. (As long as you smile.)

Each time you are going to act or speak, think about this: "is this going to further my goal of R with my W?" That should help to guide you. If you were to think about whether your proposed statement (regarding the birthday party) would further that goal, what would you say? How would that help? Remember, don't speak or act to get your W to think, do or say anything. You can't control her anyway. Speak and act from the heart, and you will be fine. (Just don't eat her arm off.)

This is what test and check is all about. You will know when and which way to move with your sitch if you test and check. So test - let's say you give her a compliment. If she responds neutrally or negatively, there you go. Don't do that again for a while. If she responds positively, make a mental note. Maybe you can do that again sometime. Watch your W for cues, and follow her cues. If she comes toward you, go toward her, but only the same amount she comes toward you. Same with backing off. It's really kind of like when you first start dating someone. Just relax and go with the flow.

Oh, and what can you do to improve your confidence level? You need this for you, and to have any shot at R. Do you work out? I find that exercise is GREAT for confidence. Why is it so low when you are around W? She is just a person, after all. Just as imperfect as you. Are you putting her on a pedestal still?

Just received a text from W:
Hey you. All drop offs at school and kindergarten has been great this week ;-). I have the bag ready this afternoon. On the 23 I would like to come around midday if that�s all right. I have to go to mom before it gets to late. The 25. sounds very very nice, but we will not be back before late afternoon, so I will have to save this to another day. On the 26 SIL will be here as well. Will it be all right if all three of us comes out before the church�.?
Ds are looking forward � have a nice day

2 min later
PS they didn�t have a bath yesterday so they might need a quick shower :-)

I had build up expectations! Cr@p!

I answered:
Everythings sounds just fine. I will pick up the bag around 1445. Enjoy the day :-)

I changed my coverpicture on FB yesterday to a picture of the children. Same picture as I put in the Christmas Cards. I got a like from W on this.
FB is great for me these days! I am building up new �friends�. Getting nice comment�s on my posts. Got a message from a distant relative yesterday. I sent her my Christmas card and got a nice thank you back.

Melissa,
Thanks for all your support!
Please do not take the below as me defending my actions or lack of same. It�s just me trying to explain them to you.

Originally Posted By: Melissa

You are thinking waaayyyyyy too much.
I know, it happens.
Stop overthinking every step.

Yup! Done this all my life in all situations: Business, gardening, M, friends �. It all! It�s who I am and I think it would be easier to stop time. KaffeDiem once told me to be spontaneous and what do I do? Sat my self down and started thinking about what to do that could be spontaneous

Originally Posted By: Melissa

When in doubt, just be quiet.

Can�t do that! I wouldn�t have said a word to W for half a year

I have been so confused and so doubtful all the way through this.

Originally Posted By: Melissa

"is this going to further my goal of R with my W?"

I have seen this sentence so many times but I still do not trust myself to judge this! I made so many wrong calls at first that I have to go with advice.

Originally Posted By: Melissa

Oh, and what can you do to improve your confidence level? You need this for you, and to have any shot at R. Do you work out? I find that exercise is GREAT for confidence. Why is it so low when you are around W? She is just a person, after all. Just as imperfect as you. Are you putting her on a pedestal still?

I have taken a severe beating (Health-issues, bankruptcy, BD and more) this year and I think time will heal me! I try not to put W on a pedestal and sometimes I succeed. I have given her too much power towards my own happiness and I properly still am. I started running when all of this happened but due to hernia and surgery this summer I stopped. Right now I have a hard time finding the motivation and time all though I know it will make me feel good.
I work my confidence through shrink and GAL right now. I also work my business but so far I have had a hard time concentrating and focusing. I need my business to have success � both for income and confidence.
Writing this I realize that I might have an even bigger problem here than I thought!!!

Originally Posted By: Melissa

I pretend that it is someone else asking the question, and me giving the advice.

I will try doing this! That just might work!

Thanks Melissa!
F

I am an analyzer, also. I think I'm perceptive

(ha) But some call it mind reading.

So, I understand the tendency to analyze, but in your case, I feel that sometimes you ask me difficult things to explain b/c it would be like me trying to teach you all about women, and it can't be done. (ha) There have been a few times that I'd like to tell you to just trust me without you thoroughly understanding it all. However, I don't blame anyone for wanting to understand it if it's possible. There's just a few things when dealing with a woman that you will never ever understand.... and if you start to think you do, she'll change it up. Add that with a WAW stitch and you can forget totally understanding it all.

Just tugged in the Ds! So amazing great to see them!

I picked up bags at W today and for the first time since august I went in to her kitchen. She had the bag ready and went through some new clothes that she had bought for D6. We talked shortly about some daily stuff, what they have been doing and so on. I try to be more talkative and think I succeded.

She complained about not having enough clean underware for D6 and I told her (with a smile) to give me the dirty ones - I can handle a washing machine, so she went upstair, packed them and gave them to me.

She didn�t reach out for a hug when I arrived and neither when I left � so no hugging today!
I left after 5 min. to pick up Ds.

When I unpacked Ds stuff I found Ws e-cigarette in the bag and texted:

Me 19.19 I found an e-cigarette in the bag�just in case you are running around searching for it ;-)

W 19:21 I did :-) I have an extra but if you can drop it by it would be great :-) (Voiced nice and with a smile � hard to translate)

Ds and I watched a show about a hunter and a chef going to Scotland to hunt a stag in the highlands and then make dinner with it. I hunt, few weeks ago D6 and I cleaned a road killed stag in the barn here and made dinner of the heart. They made the heart in the show. W and I have been to the highlands in scotland three times - one of the times we hunted stags together. I believe that W has her hanging on the wall at her home, and a picture from this trip is cover on her FB.

Me: 21.02 I will. I have just watched [local TV-show] with D6. She went totally ballistic. Dad when can I come hunting. Dad they eat the heart like us. Dad they are doing what we did to the stag here�and many more like this. She is so cool :-)
Have a nice evening
F

W 21.03 Great. She will be a real nature girl. Lovely

I hope the above is:

Originally Posted By: Sandi

I am saying to take a little chance but don't push it and go hog wild.

Originally Posted By: Melissa

I think another low risk way to test and check is to send a funny text or email, maybe forwarding a link of a story that reminded you of her, or tell her something funny that happened, or whatever. Or even something about the kids that is funny?

I feel peculiar have done this�.but that�s properly just the big nose in the mirror picking in my eye

(I like this one, Melissa � that�s just me!

) First time I have done ANYTHING like this since august as well. I hope this is following the advice given, but as always I have my doubts. Her last answer was shorter than EXPECTED

Sandi,
I can�t even imagine the time you have spent guiding me the last months and I am so grateful for this!
From here on I promise you that if you just write �This is one of the things you will never get so just do it� � then I will

Originally Posted By: Fartiltre

Sandi,
I can�t even imagine the time you have spent guiding me the last months and I am so grateful for this! From here on I promise you that if you just write �This is one of the things you will never get so just do it� � then I will

Ahh..you men are so simple and uncomplicated!

Yes, you will!

Today has without a single doubt been the best day I have had at work since BD. I have been so productive, focused and with a high PMA. I feel so good about it!

I went by W after setting off the Ds and gave her the e-cig and a letter that was in my mailbox. She seemed very short at words. In fact I just handed her the items, she thanked and then I left. She seems to be a little withdrawing but that is water on a duck these days.
I am feeling good!

Great evening with the Ds.

Tomorrow will be extremely busy with preparations for the holiday and shutting down the office for two full weeks.
I am starting to look forward to Christmas (can�t believe I am even writing this!) and I do hope this up will stay until after Christmas.

I got a few thanks for the Christmas cards today. My hunting buddy told me that it was so nice that even in times like this I found the surplus to do this. (It�s a rather big job � takes a day or so) I told him about my soul-searching and not wanting to hurt W and he just said �Well, it was so pleasant worded and nobody was blamed even once so if she is hurt that must be her problem�.

Wonka,

Originally Posted By: Wonka

Ahh..you men are so simple and uncomplicated!

Yes, isn�t exactly that; just nice! So simple, easy, uncomplicated�..

Had a short talk with W this morning and then she called this afternoon and asked if we could change some dates in march. I wasn�t in front of my computer so I told her that we would have to talk later but she started anyway.

She wants the Ds on a weekend were they are supposed to be with me. Last 4-5 years we have gone to a friend of W and watched a music competition show for children on TV. This has been some kind of tradition and W wants to continue this. This year she wants to visit the show with the Ds and see the tests live on Friday and then watch the real show on TV at her friend on Saturday. I have already been planning on doing something on this day but only in my head.

She stated: �I would like to have them on this date and then you can have them on your birthday instead.�

I told her that I had already planned on doing something with them and that at the moment I didn�t feel like doing this change of dates, but also that I would give it a thought. She started out by telling me that this show/tradition has meant nothing to me and that she didn�t understand, that she was really sad on behalf of the girls, and some few other things I can�t remember.

I told her something like �W, I will give it a thought and get back to you�

She tried to pressure me with deadline on buying the tickets, but I stood my ground and we hung up. I was calm, pleasant and with a soft-voice all the way through. She seemed a little annoyed or angry.

She texted me shortly after:

�Hey you. Well, that was a surprice. Have always seen [TV-show] as something I have had with the girls�! I can understand that you would also like to have this experience with them but then I will suggest that we share it. We could go and see the test together on Friday all of us and then you can have them on Saturday or I can have them Friday and then you can have them Saturday. No matter what I do hope that you will grant me this. It really means a lot to me.�

I haven�t answered the text but will have to call or stall her this evening.

I do not know how I feel about going there together. It�s a 2� hour drive each way � that�s a long time and I do not know where we will be in March. Could be better � could be worse!

I do not feel like giving up on time Ds and S10 have together so if we go it will only be the five of us. I believe W is organizing this with her friend, but I don�t know for sure.

I do not believe that all �traditions� can be kept alive. S10 and Ds see each other Friday to Monday every second week. I am guarding this time. I cancel sports, birthdays and so, for the four of us to spend time together.

I think her trading my birthday for this is over the top, but I will prefer the children having their weekend over them attending my birthday. I will properly address this so she knows my stand on this.

Thoughts?

Why not? I'd seize the opportunity to drive in the car with W and the kids. She offered a nice solution for everyone. Go on the trip and showcase the new, improved F with humor, silly songs, jokes, etc. This is about the kids, right? You are creating new, fun memories for everyone.

F, you're going to have many, many such negotiations in the future. You give, you take. Such is life among s'd or d'd coparents. I think your W is being a bit unreasonable in the way she's presenting it, she's presenting it more as a demand than a request. That said, I think if you refuse then she's going to "punish" you by not letting you see them on your bday. It sounds like you didn't have any firm plans that weekend anyway, so I would suggest letting her have them but clearly stating "OK, you can have them on X dates if I get them on Y dates, we'll swap those two weekends". I wouldn't go with her unless it's something that you really want to do, but it doesn't sound like it is.

Its time for you to adjust to the new normal, your right some traditions are never going to be the same. Do you see you and your wife attending this music thing together for another 10 years just to keep the tradition alive? hmmm me neither.

March is a long time away, its not like you have non refundable plane tickets holding you back. Trade the days and move on. Start making some new traditions with your kids.

F, I am going to be the outsider here and suggest that you do plan to go together. If, come March, you really feel like you don't want to go (because you will feel horribly uncomfortable, not because you think you need to not go in order to further some sort of strategy), you can always politely back out and allow your W to take the kids herself.

Others may disagree, but I think that if you can set aside your differences (as your W seems willing to do) to create wonderful memories for your kids, that can only be a good thing. Maybe you and W will have a great time, and the 2.5 hour drive will be a chance to relax and reconnect and even create pleasant memories for you and W. Maybe it won't. But if you go into it with an open mind, you never know, it might be a great family outing.

That said, I think that they way your W presented it - insinuating that you would not be allowed to have the kids on your birthday if you didn't give her what she wanted - was not cool, but let's just give her the benefit of the doubt for the moment. After all, she did text you with another possible solution that sounds much more thoughtful and reasonable.

Just my $.02.

WOW � JUST WOW!

The response and support from this page astonishes me time after time � lots and lots of gratitude!

I have been over and over this in my mind � primarily to search for what I want and secondary what will bring me closer to my goal.

I need to point out one thing: Switching one weekend with W means that S10 and Ds won�t see each other for a month! Some TV-show just isn�t reason enough for me to make this happen.

Right now I feel like
1/
Telling W that we can go together but it can only be us and if our present R is worsened at that time I will pull the plug on the trip or go without her.
I will also tell her that I am deeply serious about this and if we suddenly run into some friend of hers I will leave the place with the children and that the Rs state at that time is a totally subjective judgment made by me.
Furthermore that none of these boundaries is meant to �punish� � they are meant to protect the children�s time together and their time with me.

AS is completely right:

Originally Posted By: AS

I wouldn't go with her unless it's something that you really want to do, but it doesn't sound like it is.

I do NOT feel like doing the trip, but I will have to face this if R is ever to happen. This is in March and if I can�t face W a year after BD then when?
I can�t go here Wonka:

Originally Posted By: Wonka

Go on the trip and showcase the new, improved F with humor, silly songs, jokes, etc.

�.but I can certainly try to take it some of the way

2/
I will have the children for the rest of the weekend and thereby break the �tradition�
Fly has a good point:

Originally Posted By: Fly

...problem is that I think (mindreading) that W see this differently. She want business as normal - just without me

But then again: Now this is about me and my children.

3/

Originally Posted By: Melissa

That said, I think that they way your W presented it - insinuating that you would not be allowed to have the kids on your birthday if you didn't give her what she wanted - was not cool, but let's just give her the benefit of the doubt for the moment.

I will ASK her if she is serious about me not having the children for my birthday and if she is using this as a trade.
If so I will also tell her that pulling the birthday as a trade doesn�t seem acceptable to me and that I would like for us to talk through how this shall/will work in the time to come.

I feel ready for the talk � many thanks to all of you!

I will post after the talk!

F

You can inform W that having your children with you on your birthday is non-negotiable and important to you to spend time with them on your special day.

I am shaking!

Just had the convo with W.

I texted her that I couldn�t call earlier than 23.00 and got a nice text back about her being in the supermarket.

Called her 23.05 and asked if her shopping went well. We talked shortly about this and then after 45 seconds.

Below you will find the convo. It is hard to translate. I was calm and soft-voiced all the way through. W got angry twice and was annoyed most the time.

ME: [TV-show] We can go together�
W (Breaking in): Great
Me: �two demands. First one is that it is only us going.
W: (quiet scornful laughter)
Me: I am not interested in making this something big but I can hear that you�ve already stopped there�..
W: Yes, because�.demands, what (long breaks between words.)
W: I can�t honor that demand because�. (long breaks again) �.I would really like for [BF and daughter] to come along. It would be a major experience for all of us. You don�t have to talk to her�break�
Me: This has nothing to do with [BF] and me. This has something to with me having three children that see each other 4 days a month. If we chooses to switch�.
W (Breaking in): See each other four days a month?
Me: Yes, Saturday and Sunday every second week. Lets make it four and a half but this is not about this math � it�s about them seeing each other very little. The time the children has each other and the time I have them all together is very very sacred to me. It is not so sacred that we can�t shift but [TV-show] to me is not in a category that makes me feel like doing a shift. If this is a trip with others, and please do not take this as me holding anything against [BF and daughter] then the childrens focus on each other and me will not be the same and I won�t let that happen for [TV-show]
And thats how I feel!
W: hmprf�..[loooong break]
W: I don�t even know what to say (quiet scornful laughter)
W: That means that everything around goes and it can only be the four of you
Me (Breaking in): No, that�s not what I said
W (Breaking in): At some point that will be hard to uphold
Me: I know and I am not saying this is for ever and ever and furthermore I stated that [TV-show] is not in a category that makes me want to change days. That was what I intended to say and I am sorry if it came out different. There will be things where change of days will be the only thing right to do, but I do not see [TV-show] in March as one of these.
W: No, then this will be very difficult to discuss and this is exactly what is difficult with you. You want it you way and now you will get it because you oppose. That�s how it is and always has been and that�s so super-sad. I think. Ermm�yes�It�s a shame. I can�t see any reason that it would be a problem bringing [BF and daughter] along. You won�t lose focus. We will just show them that things can be done together and that we can still have fun without them having to choose. It will be a blast and it will be super-fun and they won�t sit on us anyway. They are supposed to have a great evening and a great experience and to know that we are all there. You won�t lose focus because of me or [BF]
(Loooong break)
Me: I hear what you are saying and I can also understand you POV but while I understand your POV I do not share it.
W: No, I can hear that�.
W: I think it is so sad. I am thinking that I can understand that you want experiences (with the Ds) and I can understand that you want many. I have said that we can change some days. I do not understand that it is so important to get them all. I am thinking let�s say that someday when D6 is older and she want to go hunting. I wouldn�t dream of saying no. I wouldn�t say no, I want to do that. You are the hunter (W also hunts) and that your passion so off course you should take her. You should have these great experiences with them but why do you want the experience of [TV-show]. You have never wanted this. That�s what I don�t understand. That�s what I think. WHAT is happening? What is happening�.(short break)
Me: W, what is�.
W: No (as in do not interrupt)
Me: Sorry
W: I DO NOT understand it. Its like ALL that you couldn�t do before you can now and that is hard for me to understand. I have to admit that and I feel so sad�really really sad�and it annoys me that you come with demands and then I do not feel like going at all�I think it is ridiculous. It is major ridiculous�I�m annoyed�.that my only fu..king comment: Annoyment!!! (Getting angry in tone. Until here the entire convo was slow, low voiced but tense.)
I do [cursing] think that I have come so open-minded in to this. I open all opportunities for you. Every time you ask � I say off course. Take them if you want them. What the�.then I ask for one thing and then I don�t care a dime if it is [TV-show] or whatever and how important YOU think it is - because I really would like this�.I am asking if I can have an experience with them�(She was raising her voice)
Me: W, you have to speak nice�.
W: I AM!!! (Raised voice) How am I not speaking nice. I haven�t said anything ugly�.
(loooong break)
Me: That�s not how I hear it�.but if you didn�t intend to then OK�
W: I didn�t hear that
Me: That�s not how I hear it�.but if you didn�t intend to then OK�
W: I do not understand�
Me: To me it sounded like you were getting angry and using tone and words I don�t like. I think I am speaking quite calm. That�s why I broke in and when you stated that it wasn�t intended I said then it is OK�.
W: hmprf
Me: I am sorry this annoys you. I can easily understand you POV, but as I see it there is a big difference in the time we have�.
W: But F � you can have time another day�..
Me: W, that I can not
W Breaking in: WE CAN JUST CHANGE THE DAYS
Me (Still totally calm

): W, I am the father of THREE children�.
W Breaking in annoyed: �I know that, F�
Me: Listen�.I have three children and these three children needs time together and time with me. We haven�t got much of this time. What you are asking of me is that because of a music-show I should give up a weekend. Then you change this to a Friday but bottom line I do not want to give up the time for this�and that goes for [TV-show]�
W: Ok, but then I shouldn�t ask�or just not tell you what I want to do�and that�s not how I want to be�I want to go into this with an open hand�I do not want to be cunning. But this is the first time I have asked if I can have them on your time�ok, a weekend is to much�an evening�I will bring them to your place�.I can bring S10�I just want to do this with [BF] because this is something we usually do together � this is our tradition. That�s why I get so disappointed that you are stealing my tradition�and it�s one you have never been interested in. Then I say you can come along. The you say: My demand is that [BF] do not come along..
Me breaking in: No
W: YES, that�s the demand�
Me: No the demand is that this is a trip for the five of us
W breaking in: But then it doesn�t matter AT ALL�..but nobody can come that�s your demand�
Me: Yes
W: I think it is so sad that you are demanding�.
(Looong break)
W: It is so sad, but then there is not much left to say�.now I will have to think a little about this�as you usually do.
Me: I totally understand (W interrupted and spoke over me and said �I deeply respect� � making a laugh of me�Validating and me!)
W: And that�s hell to me
W: This a just so bad/sad � and I know what the end is. You will have it, forget I ever asked�and then it is so�
Me: ok
W: but let me think about it�.and I will let you know�
Me: Ok, that�s all right with me�
W: Yes, thanks for calling
Me: Don�t mention it
W: Hmprf
Me: I think at some point and after the feelings on this have settled..
W: Hmprff
Me: �it would be a good idea that we sat down and talked this through in general. I am not in to taking something away from you � in any way � I am into giving something to my children and I am in to defending the things I find important to them and right now I see time as really really important. This break-up will cost traditions at both ends. That�s a totally natural bill that have to paid for something like this. To me [TV-show] is not super-super-important. You properly value this higher than me. I would value birthday higher�
W: Then you make yourself the judge in their life � you can�t judge what is important to them�You can tell what you think is important but you can�t judge what I think is important and what the children think is important�
Me: Properly right and neither can you�.
W: But when you have starwars-evenings�I don�t ask..I just say of course�You do it all. I know I have them more than you but why should you valuate my wishes. If it is important or not. You are not the judge there,F. Then I should judge you as well and say no�
That�s how I feel!
Me: I am not going to argue against your feelings. I am sorry that I make you feel this way � it is not my intention�.
W: I think it is�I can�t do otherwise�
Me: Then I can�t do anymore�.I have tried to explain that to me the most important part right now is that the kids and I have time together�
W breaking in with some sound!
Me: NO! Now you listen! I think it is really really important that the children attends your birthday, I think it is really important that we meet on the 23. So there is things I find more important than the children and me having time together.
W: Yes but you could shift the Friday to the Monday and then�..you wouldn�t loose time�and if you came along then you would win time�.I do not understand this!
Me: You started out by asking me about a weekend, the next thing you ask is if we can do this together, now you are adding a Monday � the things are changing all the time. You have asked me and I have answered. (Me mumbling to myself and then firmly stating)�NO! I won�t argue against you feelings. I am sorry that I make you angry and sad � it is not intended. My intention is to watch over something precious�
(Looong break)
W: Yes, I will have to think this over�
Me: I think you should�
Me: We can easily talk further on this issue if you feel like it�
W: Ok � we will talk (with pleasant and nice voice)

20 min.

Hard one for me. I should have ended it sooner and there are many places where I would have done, worded or stated different - but I feel I came out ok.
If she calls again and asks about this last suggestion of hers � switch Friday to Monday I will do this and I will properly also go along together with S10.
But before that I will state the second demand about us having a decent R at that time and furthermore I will tell her that we need to talk this over in general to avoid futher convo's like this.

Thoughts?

F

I might just have succeeded in pi..ing of both W and XW1 today!

Convo with W is above! It speaks for itself!

I just poured myself a big glass of red wine and while sitting here thinking I remember that I got a ltter from state today. I have (on purpose) been paying XW1 too much child support for a long time but this D costs so in the summer I called XW1 and told her I wanted it reduced. She agreed for a week and the she disagreed and told me to go through the channels at State/Gov. After waiting 6-7 months they reduced it and I received the letter today. They cut it in half! My initial proposal was around 75%.
I will call XW1 tomorrow and have a talk�my goal is that I can settle both things quickly. XW1 is coming over for dinner on 22. and W on 23. for the whole afternoon. I feel like fixing things for both of them while writing this and it will be hard for me not to reach out and help them find the best solution.

I still feel quite well and on top of things. I have the food, the presents and everything ready for a nice Christmas. This is the children�s and my time and THAT will have to be my focus!

Just need to find the tree

F, I am too tired to analyze that whole convo, but did want to say you might want to think some more about adding the condition that you have to be in a place you like in the R. Think about how that would come across if the roles were reversed. Also, we have seen how she reacts to you telling her you have "demands."

Just my $.02, but I feel like you should decide yes or no, or an alternative arrangement (as in you all go together, for example), but if you can't say yes without a bunch of conditions/demands, maybe just say no. But make sure you are saying no for your own reasons and not to punish her.

Hey F, sorry to hear about the latest. I don't really have much of an answer, but somehow feel it is another similar thing like my W. That is they have reached a point where it seems that there is no more undecided decisions or which direction to take. It simply feels that they have reached a point where they now know which path they are on.
I do truly hope that is not the case, just sounds like she is more set in what she says.