NEW LIFE / NEW ME - DivorceBusting.com

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Today it is five month since BD and W moved out a week ago.

New life � new thread!
Old threads here:

WAW / ILUBINILWY / CONFUSED!
WAW / ILUBINILWY / CONFUSED! (Thread II)
WAW / ILUBINILWY / CONFUSED! (Thread III)
WAW / ILUBINILWY / CONFUSED! (Thread IV)

For the last five months I have been thinking and writing a lot so I want to start this new thread by putting the old ones behind me. This will make this first post rather long but it is nothing compared to my threads and thoughts. I write this as a summary of my previous four very long threads.

SHORT BACKGROUND
W gave me the ILYB on 8. March 2013. I was caught off guard but also after a rough period of time. She moved out on the 1. August.
We have D6, D4 and I have S10 from other M.
If you need further background then it is here you will find this in my first thread here.

W:
I have a standard WAW in most areas, but at some point she acts different. She is totally nice and pleasant and has been this way almost all the way. We have had some arguments about the practical�s (financials, children etc.) of splitting up but otherwise the time living together after BD has been good. This is my opinion but W hasn�t opened up, so in fact I don�t know what she is thinking! A part of me takes her acting as positive and some part of me thinks that the only way she can behave like this is due to total detachment from her and her being gone for good. I hate this last thought!

During these last months we have:
Hugged, kissed on chin, hold hands, sat close, slept together, quality talked, worked the house and the garden, built a sandbox, shared expenses, been to circus twice, had visits from friends and IL, taken baths together with children, visited my father�s grave, been at the Zoo and much much more�..
We have lived as happily M without ILU, kisses and sex. In my opinion it would have been a great time if not for the BD.
She left a week ago but she still contacts me almost every day and some days several times. Most the times she has some kind of matter like children or that she forgot something.
She also still has a lot of things at the house that she hasn�t moved yet.

To me it looks like she got fed up, decided to run and did so as fast as she could. I am certain she has had the doubts about the decision but she stood with it. I believe she has a lot of enablers around her, but I am also quite certain that I am not in any way disliked by most our friends and even her family.
One major problem I have is that she stated prior to BD that she doesn�t believe in people changing. Add this to the fact that she hasn�t stated any why�s and you got the basic problems of my sit!

ME
I guess I am an average LBH. I received a lot of advice coming here, but wasn�t able to comprehend the meaning of detachment, focus on me and GAL. Reading through my old threads almost makes me laugh at myself. Especially Sandi2s posting in the early days are so spot on when I read them now, but at that time I simply didn�t understand the words or the meaning of them. I am not sure I do that today but I am getting there.
I have been blessed with so much good from this forum and I truly can state that if this forum didn�t exist I would have been a mess!

I have thought, written, looked for small steps to the outmost extent � it has almost been driving me crazy! Now she is gone and that will give me some peace since I don�t have to worry so much about her.

I believe I have done fairly well in regards of DBing and my hopes are right now that these past months living together contains enough good memories that W someday will open up and talk.

I have done a lot of 180s, and kept a fairly high PMA around W. I have had MAJOR problems with focus on me and GAL but I believe that during the last month I am getting better at this. At the same time I have loosened a little on the 180s and especially me fixing everything. I have also realized that the reason for BD might be a little different than I saw at first.
I have read a lot of books and in here about the WAS and the subject of love in general and feel I am getting the hang of the ideas. My only problem is that she is being so nice. As time passes I tend to turn towards this being a negative.

I have had 7 sessions with a DB-coach and I have due to Ws behavior been advices to pursue a little by touching. I have written an apology-letter. Nothing has changed her mind. I understand why DB-coach gave me this advice but I am very much in doubt if I did right in following it.

I love W and I my goal is that through the work I do on myself I will be able to attract her one day. I believe I am in for a very long and tough haul, but also feel that as long as I can keep the hope I will stay on the path toward possible R. I do feel hopeless more and more often as times go by.

My path is quite clear to me for now � the only big issue left to solve is how to treat W and how to react in regards of her and around her. I will discuss this with my DB-coach and my shrink in august.

GOALS
Keep, update and evaluate a list of goals and 180s
Continue journaling in here
Get my business situation and thereby income stabilized.
Get my medical issue solved and possible go through surgery
Fix my home
Work my 180s
Try to follow thoughts � being more spontaneous.

KIDS
When kids are here � Focus on them, by:
No work when they are awake
No long phonecalls
Doing at least one thing out of the house with them, when they are here for weekends.
Involving them in daily life like cooking, cleaning etc. and accepting that this will be on their timeframe

ME
When alone focus on me by:
GAL
Work my goals
Exercize
Sleep

AROUND W:
I still feel a lot of doubt in regards of interactions with W.
I won�t reach out to W but since I have a history of going silent I won�t go completely dark
I guess I will initiate convo 1 time every time she has initiated 3 times.
I will be pleasant and nice towards her.
I will let her solve her own problems
I will give her (and me) the needed time and space

That�s it for now!

Hi F,

I was hoping you would start a new thread.

You sound very organised, more than I ever have been.
It sounds like you are putting a lot of pressure on yourself.
It's good that you are working on yourself just make sure you don't burn yourself out.

Quote:

some part of me thinks that the only way she can behave like this is due to total detachment from her and her being gone for good. I hate this last thought!

Quote:

One major problem I have is that she stated prior to BD that she doesn�t believe in people changing.

Quote:

I have thought, written, looked for small steps to the outmost extent � it has almost been driving me crazy!

Quote:

My only problem is that she is being so nice. As time passes I tend to turn towards this being a negative.

Quote:

I do feel hopeless more and more often as times go by.

I have felt all the above at different times. It's not nice to feel them things F but they aren't a sign of where you will eventually land.

T,

Thanks for checking in on me!
You always seem to do this when I really need it!

Originally Posted By: T1000

I have felt all the above at different times. It's not nice to feel them things F but they aren't a sign of where you will eventually land.

This gives me hope! W seems totally detached these days. She calls me or texts me every day � most times with a purpose but sometimes without or just to share something, but she still seems totally gone!
I have a hard time figuring out how to handle myself but I have followed your advice and I am not reaching out but when she calls I am kind and very nice.

Originally Posted By: T1000

You sound very organised, more than I ever have been.

I guess I am � that�s my way in many aspects. Now I just have to follow through.

Originally Posted By: T1000

It sounds like you are putting a lot of pressure on yourself.
It's good that you are working on yourself just make sure you don't burn yourself out.

I agree but until the end of August this is the way. I simply need to get my business back on track and my medical issues sorted out. I will remember me in this process or hopefully you will pull the 2x4 on me and crack my skull until I do!

Thanks, T! And by the way: I believe your thread gives hope to a lot of people. Keep doing what you do � you are doing great!

F

Your more than welcome F,

I appreciate your comments about my thread. I do feel a bit of pressure to not get it wrong because it gives people hope but in turn that does keep me on my toes too.

I believe the same about your thread, you show that someone can go from not getting it to totally getting it if they are willing to listen and learn.

Originally Posted By: Fartiltre

I have a hard time figuring out how to handle myself but I have followed your advice and I am not reaching out but when she calls I am kind and very nice.

F, at this stage of the sitch, that is about all you can do. Stay kind and very nice, it shows how strong we are. Beats being the opposite nasty and angry all the time, don't want to go back that way again.

W and I talk almost every day on the phone. She initiates the most and I try to stay with my 3 to 1 rule. I am kind and pleasant when she contacts me but I also try to end the convos.

I have been GALing a lot. It seems like a lot of people have gathered around me deciding to help me through this. I haven�t asked for this but I appreciate and enjoy it. I have been out for the last three evenings and will be as well for the next days.

I miss my children a lot and look forward to them being here next week. W and Ds will come by tomorrow morning � that will be nice. I also talked with Ds on phone this evening � also nice!!
I am feeling good! Better than I expected to. I guess the major thing in this for me was talking to the children. W moving out was nothing compared to this and I have been busy working the house and GALing since, so I haven�t felt lonely. The feeling of being alone in the house hits me but that�s not the same as feeling lonely.

I had a session with DB-coach today. It was nice talking through the sit with coach and she gave me advice and confirmed the path I have planned to follow.
My path is laid out for now.
I won�t go completely dark and therefore stay with the 3-1 rule of contact. When W has contacted me 3 times I will initiate contact once. When she has invited three times I will accept one and so on. When we talk I will be pleasant and nice! I will ask questions about her. When we meet I will still do the walk by touches and also compliment her.
We also talked a lot about patience! As I feel right now I have a lot of patience so only showstopper will be OM or OW (I am also single now!) I don�t mind W having one night stands but a serious relationship will damage this.
Coach told me about the anger that WAS feels and that W will have to address this at some point possible.

I feel good, ready for life and the issues I have to deal with in the weeks and months to come.

Next week I have a session at shrink and unless she tells me to do otherwise I am good to go

I'm still new to all of this, but reading this gives me hope. I think you have a great plan and I will be checking in to see how everything is going. Enjoy any time you get with the kiddos and make it quality

Reading all of these threads helps me realize I sill have a long way to go (marathon) it is empowering to read about others in other stages of it. Keep on track.

You have commented several times about not understanding why your W has continued to act so nicely toward you. I think one reason is b/c you are nice to her. If you pressured her to a point.....I think you would have seen an ugly side of her.

All WAW's want to get what they want with their H being nice and not causing them any problems or grief. That is one reason why many WAW's try to hurry up the split/move out or D, b/c they expect a fight from the H and they want to avoid that "unpleasantness" and proceed in their fantasy world.

As long as she is getting everything her way, why would she not. be nice? That is often why the WAW is relieved to hear her LBH say he wants to be her "friend".

After the W moves out.......and if she gets financial ease through the H, her fantasy may continue on until she finds something better or starts looking for something to satisfy her loneliness. I am often amazed how women expect the man they left to continue to support them.

Her true reason for leaving the M may, or may not, be revealed after she has moved out.

You had stated one time that there might be an EA but you had not snooped to find out. Did you see any of the "signs" that could indicate she had OM in her thoughts?

Hi Sandi

Thanks for looking by

Originally Posted By: Sandi

If you pressured her to a point.....I think you would have seen an ugly side of her.

I have seen this a few times and every time has been when I stood my ground in financials, talk to children or things like that.
I do believe you are right since I have seen it! It is just below the surface. I haven�t provoked it but I have my boundaries and when she disagrees she spews. Still it is nothing like I read in other sitches in here.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

As long as she is getting everything her way, why would she not. be nice? That is often why the WAW is relieved to hear her LBH say he wants to be her "friend".

She has gotten a lot her way but I have as well. Since she is the one leaving she has the best hand. I have been nice towards her until she crossed boundaries � shouldn�t I have been this way?

Originally Posted By: Sandi

After the W moves out.......and if she gets financial ease through the H, her fantasy may continue on until she finds something better or starts looking for something to satisfy her loneliness. I am often amazed how women expect the man they left to continue to support them.

I haven�t done this � almost the opposite in fact! This was one of the issues that made her angry! I wont support her � she is on her own! I won�t make it hard on her either so I have followed the rules in my country but she did expect more and therefore she got disappointed and then angry!

Originally Posted By: Sandi

Her true reason for leaving the M may, or may not, be revealed after she has moved out.

I do hope so! I am getting closer but still I am not certain so I just act like she got fed up!

Originally Posted By: Sandi

You had stated one time that there might be an EA but you had not snooped to find out. Did you see any of the "signs" that could indicate she had OM in her thoughts?

If I have stated this I don�t believe it anymore! I have seen no signs at all � none, zip, zero!!!
I don�t believe there is or has been an EA

Now that you are here I want to thank you for your post when my sit started! I believe that it only took me four months to understand what you meant then

. Then again you also told me that LBH don�t comprehend focus on you, detach and GAL � I see it now!

If you have any advice for me I will be grateful receiving it.

Thanks!

F

Sorry to hijack the thread F, but if as Sandi says our spouses are going to continue staying nice because we are nice to them, is there a better way or answer to this. What I mean is, if we are being nice (too nice maybe) is that going against helping our sitch's? Is it making it too easy for the WAS?
While I understand we should not be the opposite, if we are standing our ground with regards to money and other issues, what should we do differently? If it needs to be done? Should we not act like friends (if you even get that op)?

HWA,

I hope Sandi will look at this. I feel I have been nice but also that I have stood my ground...perhaps I am all wrong!

F

What is too nice?

To me, too nice is giving them something that is beyond fair considering they have left you and the M.

Unless they are attacking you the position should be 'friendly neighbour'. If they ask for a small favour and it's not far out of your way then helping isn't being too nice.
If your asked to do something you feel is unfair or you are being used then doing the said action is being too nice.

If you feel like you are a doormat you probably are in someway.

If you accept being used or treated like a doormat what does that say to your WAS? Whether it's actually noticed or it's just subconscious, it's not attractive and you stay in the same position or very possibly you take a further step back.

If you say no because you respect yourself they will be angry because they are not getting their way.

A few weeks ago my W and I had an argument and I stood my ground more than I ever had before. She was furious, throwing D's, L's and custody at me like ninja throwing stars. She hated me but i think I gained her respect.

Well put, T

And then just to clarify: I definitely do not feel like a doormat!

...but then again: I have been so wrong earlier and perhaps I am again

I feel I have treated W with respect within my boundaries for the last months. I did my shares of fault and errors at first but I do feel I adjusted.

Right now you definitely don't sound like a doormat to me either.

You probably won't know for sure until you are able to reflect on it.

Oh no, I'm not suggesting any man not be nice.....if her can. But I know you seem to have concussion about her being nice in comparison to others. And we don't read a lot about nice WAW's, but it is not as uncommon (from the posts I've read) for the WAH to be nice to the LBW, even when he has OW.

As long as she is showing you respect in your presence, in your home, and in front of your children........and respecting your boundaries, you should conduct yourself with politeness and friendliness, if possible. If you have to compromise with your values, standards, boundaries, and be passive in order to be "nice" to her.......then don't be nice or friendly. It is more important to be firm with her and have her respect. Nothing is more important than your W's respect. Without it, you can never have her true love for a H. A woman cannot love a man with true sexual love without respecting him as a man first.

So by all means, stand your ground, protect your boundaries, and don't be a passive wimp just in order for her to think of you as a nice guy. There are a lot of nice guys out there that a lot of women don't respect.

You didn't do anything wrong. I was just making a comment.

Quote:

Read what I posted back to F. As long as you are not being a doormat and taking disrespect just to appease your W, then nothing is wrong with nice. I wasn't saying there was! I was simply trying to answer an issue F has had since he first came here.

The problem with you guys is that you are still looking for a way to fix it better and you pick upon a few words and let it throw you for a loop. Sometimes I feel like you strain at a nat and swallow a camel, but I guess it's the crises that make you that way.

Sandi,

Thanks for clarifying! You are totally right � it took me some time to get to this point, but I do believe that's were I am now! At first in sit I was a doormat but I truly believe this was only for a month or so! By the way � some of this development was only due to you hitting me hard several times at first so once again, thanks!

Originally Posted By: Sandi

Sometimes I feel like you strain at a nat and swallow a camel, but I guess it's the crises that make you that way

Yes we do and yes it is! I believe we all go through this phase and in fact we have to! The question is for how long we dwell in this phase. When I read in here it seems like somebody never leaves this phase while others go through it rather quickly.

When we start focusing on ourselves we conscious or unconscious develop and realize our values and boundaries and that�s when we put our foot down and gain respect - Not just from W!

F

Originally Posted By: T1000

Right now you definitely don't sound like a doormat to me either.

You probably won't know for sure until you are able to reflect on it.

Means a lot to me when coming from you!
I have been reflecting on this (and much else as you know!) for a long time and I do not feel like a doormat! I feel good and like the man I want to be! If that isn�t good enough for W then that�s just too bad! I still have work to do but IMHO I am getting there.

I believe I am a man she would fall in love with if we didn�t have any history so for now it is all about patience, patience and more patience! I do hope that I will continue to feel good because this makes the patience part so much easier. I know the about the ups and downs and I am properly up right now but I am prepared for downs and will cope.

Thanks T!

F

HWA,

You are still my favorite Australian cow so do not feel sorry!

You will never be able to hijack my thread since you will always be a relevant and pleasant poster so just keep it coming!
Did you get the answers you needed?

F

Thanks Sandi for your reply. Similar to F, we just needed to clarify your statement in more depth, thank you for that. It was more a question of whether we needed to stop being so nice or eager to please. I agree that I don't think there is anything or anyone that is too nice if not being a doormat.
F, yes I did get the answer I was after. Thanks also about the allowing to hijack, just giving you courtesy.
If anything I had a lovely talk to a parent of some kids from my school today. Such a positive lady, she gave such a powerful message about needing to focus 100% on me and gave ways to do it. Just one of those moments that was needed. Will write on my own page later.
Hope all is well F.

Hi F!

Sounds like you are doing okay and I am happy to hear that. I agree with Sandi2, your W has no reason not to be nice to you because you have made this very easy for her.

It does seem that your W is going to need to miss you and understand that things are different now if anything is going to change. I am glad you aren't going to accept every invitation - even though it is good for the girls, if she is cake eating she has no reason to want to come home. It is important for the children that you have the R you do, that you keep in touch and know what is going on. It is going to be important for your M that she miss you and feels the impact that things are different. She needs time to feel this and reflect on it. At some point it seems you should be pulling back more than you have. Sandi2?

Yep, I agree totally.

Btw F, I hate these auto spellers. I had typed the word confusion in that post, but I think it was changed by my IPad to something else. Anyway.....

I would like to go back to something hotwheels said when we were talking about being too nice to the WAW. He brought up about being too eager to please. I believe a man can be nice and still hold his head high b/c he has not compromised his boundaries. However, once you get over into that area of being too eager to please your WAW, then you are in danger of her seeing you as a doormat. You guys cannot imagine what a turn-off it is for a WAW to see her H jumping through hoops of fire just to please her. It usually draws her disrespect and disgust to the point she can hardly be civil to him.

That is why I am always talking about having her respect for you as a man, first, is more importantant than anything else. Being her doormat only increases her disrespect for you. And, btw, a woman can get angry at her H and still respect him as a man. If the anger is not over issues of you not being a man. Does that make sense?

If she respects you, then there is a lot of hope of having her to feel in love with you again. But if she doesn't respect how you are as a "man", she won't be able to have those in love feelings.

So, for whoever is reading this, you need to focus on how you are showing your manliness around her and in your daily life, rather than ways of pleasing her while she is a WAW.

Great advice sandi2

Any guys that need help in that department there is a lot of good info on theartofmanliness.com Sorry mods if that was a no-no; I think its a great site

Yesterday W and Ds came here in the morning to pack down D6s aquarium and move it to Ws. I had cleaned it and bought four new fish for D6. I don�t want the aquarium here so all I could do was to help it off the best way possible.

I haven�t seen the Ds since Monday so big hugs. They simply loved the room I made for them � even W liked the ideas I put into this. I haven�t involved myself in decorating before, since my ideas have always been rejected � now I decide and it works perfectly. I am working through the entire house over the months to come.

I have made a big mosaic of pictureframes in different colors on a wall. The children get to choose the pictures for frames in their personal color. S10 has gone with soccer players, heroes, D4 with Hello kitty, backyardigans � you get the idea! They have put their heroes in and then I have reserved two colors for me to put family pictures in. I looks like a million! I bought the frames in IKEA and put them on the wall with Velcro so I can easily take them down and change the picture which by the way I Google and then print. There you got it � easy to copy but put a small F in the corner for me

I loved the expression on Ws face when she saw this!

I have gotten some of my things into the house that she has moved out. Things I like but have agreed to move since she doesn�t. I like the things being back. I also bought a robot vacuum cleaner. I have suggested this for years but W resented this idea. D4 asked about it today and I showed it � it works to an extend that even W could see.
I like working the house and the garden.

I didn�t reach out for a hug when they arrived � I simply went directly for the Ds. She walk-by-touched me twice and kissed me on the cheek when we said goodbye later. Coach told me to continue the touching but yesterday I didn�t feel like and at the same time I wanted to focus on the children.

I helped packing the aquarium and then we went off to her place. She was eager to get the girls to show me the house. She is definitely proud of the house but that must be the fog and a few things hit me while there:
- The house is the opposite of her stated wishes when we were together.
- She is totally blind to all thing things that she will miss like space, air, silence etc.
- Presents from me are all over the house.
- She is good at decorating so it will be cozy but for now she has a long way to go.
- She is now in the city with all its advantages.

We installed the aquarium and then she drove me to the triathlon. I couldn�t do it because of medical issues but went there to cheer on my buddies. These two guys are both married to ladies from Ws mothers group. One of those ladies is one of Ws best friends.
They finished the race and we all met up at one of them. Them � two couples with children and mutual friends to me and W � and me single. We made a barbecue and just had a wonderful afternoon. They � especially the women � asked about how I was doing and I just kept my PMA high and avoided answering anything.

All along this day I have been thinking how much Ds and W would have loved being there!

It was so nice seeing the girls again � I miss them so much! SO MUCH!

I feel like I have been living in a bowl for five months and that somebody just removed it! I miss the good times and my family but I do feel good!

Today I am off to a concert with Ws cousin � it will be great

Sandi & LTH,

Thanks for being here! I feel privileged!
I have a lot of questions and do hope you both will take the time.

Originally Posted By: LTH

Sounds like you are doing okay and I am happy to hear that. I agree with Sandi2, your W has no reason not to be nice to you because you have made this very easy for her.

I do feel okay!
I guess I have made it easy but at the same time I believe I have stood my grounds in regards of not helping her move, the financials, the talk to the children and so on. I do feel I have kept my boundaries but then again it is sometimes hard to evaluate your own sit.
I haven�t worked against her and this could be the reason. I see that now.

Originally Posted By: LTH

It does seem that your W is going to need to miss you and understand that things are different now if anything is going to change.

I agree to this and in here is also one of my big problems!
I understand she got fed up with me! Coach told me that she properly moved out in anger and I understand this as well. She got enough and I pushed her away. This was prior to BD.
Few weeks after BD I changed totally and started working 180s, PMA and all of that and I have done this for five months. I can without any doubt say that if we didn�t have a history she would be attracted towards me today.
But if she is stuck prior to BD this will be almost impossible to R.

On July 23. I gave things a last shot and got this from her:
We have been talking about this over and over
I have been withholding myself so much for the last months.
This has been coming for so long and you didn�t see.
It is not fair that you tell me you feel cheated because you didn�t get the chance.
Funny enough you are not angry in the mornings anymore
IDLY
You have been pursuing me for sex � I don�t believe how you have gotten through these months
I have given you everything you wanted
This already started when before D4 was born.
You have gotten it your way since BD

(You can read the entire post in my previous thread)

She is in the fog and this is not something she will miss.
So how do I make her miss me?
Can I do anything but focus on me, GAL and detach because that�s what I am doing.

Should I address her anger at some point?
For now I feel I shouldn�t address anything at all and just let her be! She is all excited about her new life but in a few days� vacation ends and that�s when real life will happen. The summer has been beautiful but soon fall will hit. Financials has been easy on her with the new bank but soon daily life and expenses will come.
�.and so on!
(This will also hit me but I feel prepared!)

Originally Posted By: LTH

I am glad you aren't going to accept every invitation - even though it is good for the girls, if she is cake eating she has no reason to want to come home.

I won�t and I don�t believe she is cakeeating at the moment. I believe she would like to eat dinner and do familystuff at least once a week but for now I don�t do this. At the same time I wonder if this is exactly what I need to do. It would give me an opportunity to show the new me and for her to realize that children has two parents for a reason.
That�s why I have made the 3-1 rule!
Am I doing wrong?

Originally Posted By: LTH

It is important for the children that you have the R you do, that you keep in touch and know what is going on.

I am doing this. I want to be a part of the children�s life! I am already facing a problem:
D6 is a girl scout on Wednesdays for 5PM � 6.30PM and this present a problem. Scouting is 15 min from here and this means that D4 will have to spend an hour in a car and that our eating time will be very late.
When W asked me about D6 attending I told her that this could be a problem. W got disappointed and a little angry. In fact she ended up telling me that I have to call D6 and tell her that she can�t scout because of me. (Funny when compared to the not blaming her for BD) I instantly backed out when she got angry and just told her that we can discuss this matter at a different time.

I don�t think the scouting will work and in my head I trying to formulate a rule that I might follow. Something like:
I will do all the good I can for the children but doing good for one should not hurt another (to much).
I don�t know if this makes sense and would really like your comments. (It feels like W doesn�t realize that D will have impacts on the children!)

Originally Posted By: LTH

At some point it seems you should be pulling back more than you have.

This is what I am doing right now:
I won�t reach out to W but since I have a history of going silent I won�t go completely dark
I guess I will initiate convo 1 time every time she has initiated 3 times.
I will be pleasant and nice towards her.

How and when should I pull back?

Originally Posted By: Sandi

You guys cannot imagine what a turn-off it is for a WAW to see her H jumping through hoops of fire just to please her. It usually draws her disrespect and disgust to the point she can hardly be civil to him.

I fully agree!! I do not feel I am being a doormat. I am still working on my values and boundaries and I do try to stick firmly with these.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

If she respects you, then there is a lot of hope of having her to feel in love with you again.

Once again I agree!
At the same time I think the only way I can earn respect is by being me! Focus on me and the children, live a nice life, GAL, be happy, do good in business and life in general � all of that!
Sandi, you told me many times in the beginning that there was no magic-word that would fix this. I looked but I am not doing that anymore. I am working me. Off course I look towards W but I mind my own business and me and I do not try to adjust the me towards her � anymore! So what is left is the hope and the patience.
If you have any suggestions towards actions I should take then please let me know.

How do I earn respect?
How do I go from respect towards feel in love?
How do I show the manliness you talk about?
How do I attract her from here?
Do you believe coach is right about the anger that W feels?

Right now I feel I have all the time in the world and that only two things can wreck this totally. Her falling in love with OM or me with OW. At the same time I have realized that I properly can�t do anything but work on me!

At the end of this long post I have one final question. 25 wrote this in my thread a long time ago:

Originally Posted By: 25

Your wife has good feelings for you, still. That's a spark we're going to help you nurture in time.

I believe she is right about the feelings but how do I nurture the spark?

Ladies, I feel privileged and grateful that you both once again have taken the time to respond to my sit and give me advice!
I do hope the both of you will help me make out my path!

THANKS!

F

F, sounds great what you are doing with the house. I am looking forward to the same thing, based on buying the house off the W. I have so many plans, that weren't looked as being great when they were mentioned ages ago, now I won't have to get anyone's opinion.
I can understand you not wanting to touch/hug the W. I suppose it is one of the ups and downs of the rollercoaster. Sometimes you just don't want to put the effort in.
It is good to hear you are feeling good. Did you google and find a picture of a cow and sheep, drinking beer while watching the sun set?

Concert yesterday was a blast but I wasn�t home until 3 AM and I have been wasted today so my working day has been very inefficient.

W called this morning and asked about the concert. We talked about it and agreed that the concert we will attend next weekend with SIL and MIL hopefully will be as good. Then she asked about D6s first school day tomorrow and how we should plan it. I was in the middle of something and told her I would get back to her in the evening.

I finished work and bought groceries for the next days. I need to plan my shopping when children are here. I don�t want to waste time in a supermarket when they are here. I am in lack of time at the moment � lots of work at the office and at the same time at home. Tomorrow S10 will be here and the day after the Ds.
I should have planned my shopping�s better and will correct this next time.

D6 called me early in the evening on the phone and we talked about tomorrow. I will go to Ws and have breakfast and then we will go together to the school.
After talking to D6 I spoke shortly with W and then D4 told her that she wanted to talk with me with video so we connected on Skype. It was nice talking to the children � very nice!

XW1 called this evening and was talking a lot about this and that � she talked about the good things in singlelife and how she enjoys and has been for 10 years. She has given me this speech before and it is baloney all the way through. (She has been single with a few short breaks since she WAWed me.) She asked how I was doing and if the house was big being alone and so on. I told her I was feeling quite good, but also that I needed to get the house in order and some other practical stuff. I told her that I was sorry that I wasn�t able to plan better around S10 for the moment and that I hoped she understood that I will need some time to settle in to my new life. She said she did and told me that she would gladly help � all I should do was to call her.
I believe she meant good all the way!

I have been missing my family today but I am looking forward until I see them tomorrow.

Just a few things F. With regards to the scouts, can you not do the shopping with your youngest daughter while the other daughter is at scouts? What a great time you would have together. You could even pick up some food on the way back so everyone still eats together.
Other thing is have both daughters come shopping with you. Again another great oppurtunity to spend some quality time together, even boring things like shopping.
I think you are right about you XW showing good meaning. Just be careful there that nothing comes from her seeing an opening she could take advantage of.
Take care F. By the way the temperature is getting hot here now. Perfect time to sit, drink, chat and watch the sun going down. Cannot wait until I am home next year, doing that by the pool.

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I guess I have made it easy but at the same time I believe I have stood my grounds in regards of not helping her move, the financials, the talk to the children and so on. I do feel I have kept my boundaries but then again it is sometimes hard to evaluate your own sit.
I haven�t worked against her and this could be the reason. I see that now.

F, we didn't mean you did anything wrong, we just meant that don't mistake her being so nice to mean something else when she has no reason not to be nice.

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You spent a long time doing 180's, your W sees what you are capable of and knows what you want. Keep up your 180's for you. It may not be too late to R, however, this most likely will not occur until she senses she may LOSE the new, improved F.

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We have been talking about this over and over
I have been withholding myself so much for the last months.
This has been coming for so long and you didn�t see.
It is not fair that you tell me you feel cheated because you didn�t get the chance.
Funny enough you are not angry in the mornings anymore
IDLY
You have been pursuing me for sex � I don�t believe how you have gotten through these months
I have given you everything you wanted
This already started when before D4 was born.
You have gotten it your way since BD

Many WAW's feel this way. It most likely took her a long time to get to the point where she was so lonely/angry/sad/frustrated/whatever that she couldn't live that way any longer. It can be even more frustrating when you are finally so fed up you are leaving and that is when the LBS takes notice and shapes up. She sounds angry that this is what you did. She knows you have changed. It really seems like time to give her the space to figure it out, let her see you moving on.

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She is in the fog and this is not something she will miss.
So how do I make her miss me?
Can I do anything but focus on me, GAL and detach because that�s what I am doing.

You are focusing on you and GALing, however, you don't seem detached at all. You are in constant contact and still doing many things together.

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Should I address her anger at some point?
For now I feel I shouldn�t address anything at all and just let her be! She is all excited about her new life but in a few days� vacation ends and that�s when real life will happen. The summer has been beautiful but soon fall will hit. Financials has been easy on her with the new bank but soon daily life and expenses will come.
�.and so on!

Do not address it. You gave her your apology letter, that is all you can do for now. See what happens as her new life sets in and she is a single mom trying to handle work, school, homework and bills.

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She has seen the new you...I cannot say you are doing wrong, this is what your coach is advising. I assume there is a reason although per the books you would normally be detaching and moving on... What does your coach say about why she is recommending this approach?

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I agree with the suggestions Hotwheels gave. Scouts is a lot of fun and there will be many things your children will be involved in over the next 10-12 years that will require the schedule to be bent or thrown right out the window. If you don't like the shopping idea (which is great, esp with picking up food to eat on the way home) you can try to find another parent to share driving with - you drive one way, they drive the other. If you don't want to leave D6, hang out. I had a GS Troop for 3 years and often had younger siblings at the meetings and we just included them in anything they were interested in - D6's leader may feel the same way.

Think about it this way...what will be more important in the big picture? D6's scouting memories and the values she will learn or D4's schedule? It will all work and it won't be that bad.

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How and when should I pull back?

What does your coach say?

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How do I earn respect?
How do I go from respect towards feel in love?
How do I show the manliness you talk about?
How do I attract her from here?
Do you believe coach is right about the anger that W feels?

You earn respect as Sandi2 said be nice but stand up for yourself. Also, have an opinion. Sometimes people think they are being nice/kind by saying 'okay, whatever you want' but it is a huge turnoff.

How do you go from respect to love? You can't, your W has to make that step.

How do I attract her? I have to defer to your coach because she must have a reason for not telling you to pull back.

You need some vets to answer these questions..I am sure they can add a lot more!

LTH,

Thanks for replying!

I am glad that you do not think I did anything wrong � you and Sandi had me worrying there! I am trying to do the best I can so hard these days � in regards of me and in regards of my communication with W.
I feel so busy with all of it these days and do believe I am doing OK.

Originally Posted By: LTH

The more I look at my own sit the more hopeless I feel. She seems gone!
I will keep up my 180s for me because I feel good about them and they make me feel good about me. I feel, look, talk, walk and act better than I have done for years and that makes me feel good. I haven�t been able to work my 180s as hard as I would like for the last month or more because of two things. Mainly my medical issues have resulted in a lot of pain and therefore my physical capabilities are less than they used to be. Secondly I have followed advice from Sandi2 about not fixing everything. I do also feel good about my GAL these days.
In fact I simply just feel good except for W, Ds and family being gone!

Originally Posted By: LTH

It really seems like time to give her the space to figure it out, let her see you moving on.

What should I do to show her this?

Originally Posted By: LTH

You are focusing on you and GALing, however, you don't seem detached at all. You are in constant contact and still doing many things together.

I believe I am giving her the time and space I can without being unpleasant or rude! I do not initiate contact that much � W does! I don�t believe there�s anything to this but kindness and caring for the children and a little of me! Yesterday we went to D6s first day at school together. She invited me to eat breakfast at her house and I said yes. This is the first of several invitations I have accepted. She is still hugging, touching and being nice.

W called me this morning about me picking up the girls. It should have been a 30 sec. convo but it lasted 10 min. I try to end our convos everytime but she keep on talking about the Ds, that she got new internet, the concert we attend on Saturday, that the girls are looking forward to seeing me, she asks about S10 and so on. I answer her questions and try to be scarse on the words but still pleasant and kind. She told me that it was so nice that I was there eating breakfast yesterday.
I try not to read anything in to all of this but it still keeps my head spinning. She doesn�t want to live with me but she wants me in her life (Plan B, friend or what � I don�t know!). I still don�t get her actings�.but I do believe she feels good about herself and her life! She has told her cousin that�s she plans on living without a man for a long time.
As read you, Sandi and everybody else I have to get out of her life. That�s hard when she act like this unless I just tell her straight to her face to back off. I fear doing this right now but possibly that�s just what I need to do and then I will do it.

Sandi2 once told me that I should trust my feelings about W. I feel W is gone but I also feel on a day like yesterday that she is confused about it all. I do not feel any doubt in her but I feel confusion about how to act around me. I am not detached � I love her! I try to act detached around her and I believe I am doing fairly well but it is difficult. I follow 37 rules to the best of my abilities but also try to mind advice from coach.

The suggestion about the 3-1 rule was mine initially but coach immediately told me that she agreed to this. I believe coach�s reasoning is that W is being nice and pleasant and I should be the same. I have withdrawn more than 3-1 for now. In fact I have only contacted W when she has asked me a direct question. Coach has all the way believed that W will come around and that�s why she has been telling me to touch, talk and be nice. Coach is still on this path but my concern about this is that coach does only have my POW and this could be interpreted wrong.

What is your opinion? Please do not mind coach�s advice � please give me yours?

Originally Posted By: LTH

Agreed, I won�t!

Originally Posted By: LTH

You earn respect as Sandi2 said be nice but stand up for yourself. Also, have an opinion. Sometimes people think they are being nice/kind by saying 'okay, whatever you want' but it is a huge turnoff.

I believe I have stood up for me and my opinions!

Originally Posted By: LTH

Think about it this way...what will be more important in the big picture? D6's scouting memories and the values she will learn or D4's schedule? It will all work and it won't be that bad

Thanks! ALSO TO HWA!
I will give your advice some serious thoughts!

Any comment on the �Nurture the spark� from 25mlc?

Originally Posted By: LTH

You need some vets to answer these questions..I am sure they can add a lot more!

I really hope VETS will come by!

LTH, Thanks for taking time with all what is going on in your own sit. I was so happy reading about the latest development and I will keep you in my prayers.

F

In all honesty F, I think you are doing fine and good with the sitch as it stands. You are not allowing any cake eating, you are standing your ground, if and when needed. Why wouldn't you take advantage of any invites from the W, as long as they don't lead to cake eating.
I suppose the only thing I could think you could do, would be to knock back the occasional invite. Sorry, cannot make breakfast I have to meet someone or do something, but can meet you at the school at such and such time still.
Try and allow her some time to miss you, especially when she wants you. If that makes sense. Again, only you know her so personally. So you need to try and decide if it benefits the long term R prospect.

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Originally Posted By: LTH
It does seem that your W is going to need to miss you and understand that things are different now if anything is going to change.

F, has it crossed your constant wheel-turning brain, that you did a lot of the pushing away after the BD? Do you know why she got fed up? I'm not talking about anything before BD, but afterwards, you pushed and kept pushing. We tried to tell you to back off and that you were pursuing, but you would say you were "trying". You're a nice guy and I don't want this to sound harshly, but honestly, you are still pursuing to a point. You need to forget that 3 - 1 rule of yours. Do not initiate any contact that is not an emergency.

LTH is 100% correct. Your W needs to miss you. Miss you really badly! The two of you will always be connected, so it would be rather difficult to go completely dark on her. But I'm not talking dark, I'm talking about not initiating any contact with her.

You say you can't detach b/c you still love her (or words similar to those). You don't have to stop loving in order to detach. You've been given information and you are a smart enough person to read about it. Let me put it this way. (I'm saying this softly, even if you can't hear my voice.) If you want to detach bad enough.....you'll do it. And you will love still love her.

This happens to men all the time. They make the same mistakes you made pre-BD. Then you panic at the realization you're losing her. The reason you can't detach is b/c you are still scared to death of living with that loss.

You kept thinking your stitch was different b/c your W wasn't being the b!tch that you read about in other threads. She didn't have to be, as LTH pointed out, you have made things easy. Not that you wanted the break-up, but you made it easy by not fighting and standing in her way. Which, of course, you really couldn't do much else.

You really have no doubts that she would be attracted to you today.....if not for the history? My, but that almost sounds like a confident man! So why the fear? Yes, history can be held against the LBH, but it can also be a plus for the LBH. She's the mother of your kids, after all. I remember how you didn't understand why she was leaving b/c you had such a great R. That has to count for something. Besides, you've heard about women changing their minds!

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But if she is stuck prior to BD this will be almost impossible to R.

Hogwash! Stop giving her excuses. Your are your own worst enemy. If you do what we have preached to you all this time, (need I repeat it again), she can become unstuck whenever she decides she's ready to give the R another chance.

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On July 23. I gave things a last shot and got this from her:

By "a last shot" you mean you initiated a R talk, and/or pursued her. See, still pushing.

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What does the IDLY stand for? I do love you or I don't love you? I'll take a guess. Look, she was trying to be nice as long as she was living in the same house with you. She probably didn't want any fighting and wanted to get out being "friends". But you kept pushing.

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You have been pursuing me for sex � I don�t believe how you have gotten through these months

July 23rd? Was that the last shot you were talking about?

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I have given you everything you wanted
This already started when before D4 was born.
You have gotten it your way since BD

What does she mean by given you everything you wanted? I understand what she means in the second sentence (which is another reason you shouldn't have pursued sex). What exactly does she mean in the third sentence? If she's referring to you standing up and not letting her use you......then, good.

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She is in the fog and this is not something she will miss.

Are you referring to sex?

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So how do I make her miss me?

Don't make me come through this screen.

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Can I do anything but focus on me, GAL and detach because that�s what I am doing.

You stop playing "family" with her, that's how.

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Should I address her anger at some point?

No, not unless she unleashes it on you in a disrespectful manner. Otherwise, you have to let her deal with it and get through it in the way she decides. Don't try to decide for her.

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For now I feel I shouldn�t address anything at all and just let her be!

Absolutely!! You must leave her alone and stop trying to "be there for her". I know that goes against your feelings, but that is what works. For her to experience what it's like to not have you in her life.

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I don�t believe she is cakeeating at the moment.

Whenever she can call on you to help her with........anything, it is cake-eating. Calling to chat, or asking you to come help screw in a light bulb, or keep the kids while she does something else.....whatever her requests are for your help. But the number one way of cake-eating for the WAS is having "family" time together. She left that option, remember? Once a week, are you kidding? And don't let her (and neither should you) use the excuse that it would be good for the kids. Both sides are often guilty of using that one, but reality needs to set in as quick as possible. Those family times would immediately stop the minute another person entered the picture anyway. So why let the children think it would always be that way? I hope I answered your question about if you need to do it.

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I will do all the good I can for the children but doing good for one should not hurt another (to much).
I don�t know if this makes sense and would really like your comments. (It feels like W doesn�t realize that D will have impacts on the children!)

Yes, very good, I like it. And you're right, your W doesn't, or won't, recognize the fact D harms children. That fantasy fog helps her believe they will be fine as long as they have both of you.

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How and when should I pull back?

Be unavailable by phone. Let it go to VM or TM. That keeps her from getting too chatty. If it has something important about the kids, and if she is asking a direct question....then give a two or three word sentence. But for the most part, you can text back with a "K". But don't respond immediately, or if she doesn't ask a question. I've known some couples who never spoke or saw each other after the D and they had children. This is not what you want. But you are the Chatty-Cathy doll! I know! You need to create some kind of a shift to adjust to a new connection with each other. You want to have a friend--ly R with her, but sometimes there has to be a break in order to build a bridge, KWIM? You have to stop filling that role of H for her and allow her to make it on her own. Stand back and allow her to fail......or succeed at being a single mom. She chose it, now let (or make) her live it.

Don't go inside her house when you pick-up or deliver the kids. Don't agree to go with her to anything. No family events. Just don't be available for her in any way for now. I know it sounds terribly cold to hear it, but if she keeps having you at her convenience, she will not be able to progress to the place she needs to be in order to come out of the fog.

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I do not feel I am being a doormat. I am still working on my values and boundaries and I do try to stick firmly with these.

That's good.

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Sandi, you told me many times in the beginning that there was no magic-word that would fix this. I looked but I am not doing that anymore. I am working me. Off course I look towards W but I mind my own business and me and I do not try to adjust the me towards her � anymore! So what is left is the hope and the patience.

Yes, hope and patience. Hope....while you go on living. Patience.....b/c it may take her two years before she comes out of this. And I'm not trying to kill your hope by telling you this, but I want you to realize what could be ahead.

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Oh wow! Well, you have a good idea on the respect part. A woman wants a man who is inwardly strong and works hard to provide for his family. She wants a man with integrity, loyalty, honor, and a good leader. She wants a man who will stand up to her, and remind her, in a Rhett Butler way, she's dealing with a "man" and not a jackass. A man who takes nothing off her, but would defend her to his death....and she has no doubt of his love for her. She wants a man who is passionate, and can stir the passion in her. But, I think I may be getting off the subject a bit....

It is kind of hard to tell a man how to display manliness that women are attracted to. My H can cook and keep house when he has too, however, he looks manly while he's doing it.

It's more about not be a wimp and acting clingy and needy. I think ambition is attractive, as long as it's not sand castles and he's dealing with reality. I think laziness and some other unlikable qualities is far from attractive, but goodness, look at the books that's been written on the subject of attraction and what women like.

Have to stop for now.

Sandi,

I need to get back to you tomorrow - it is past midnight in my part of the world and my Ds are sleeping upstairs!

I have been through your post several times and I have a �few� questions and a lot of answers for you! I hope you will look in on me tomorrow!

I am so tremendously grateful that you have taken the time trying to straighten out my constant wheel-turning brain

(Well put!)

Thanks!

F

Sandi2 said it much better than I did...listen to everything she said!

Sandi,

This answer will take me more than one day!

I'll be back!

F

P.S. I will for certain need a haircut if I have to go Rhett Butler

I have decided to go LRT now. My next post will be an answer and some questions for Sandi2 and from thereon I am as dark as possible � for me and for the sit!

I haven�t initiated contact to W for three days. We have spoken since she has been in my home moving some of her things. When she did this two days ago I told her to leave her key and she did. Yesterday D4 got stung by a bee or wasp on the tongue and this needed to be addressed since W got the info. She called me up and we talked very briefly. At that time I told her that her stuff has to be gone in two weeks. I have invited around 20 guys to a boys-day at my home in three weeks and I want her out. She agreed to this.

XW1 has been very communication and yesterday she went completely ballistic. She invited me to join her and S10 on a short skiing trip right after new-year. I believe she is just taking advantage of the situation and that she only wants S10 to have us both around him now that this is possible � but still it is a peculiar situation. I said thank you and that I would consider this. We also � on S10s initiative � are going together to a movie on Monday.

ADVICE???
WILL THIS WORK AGAINST MY GOAL OF R?

My GAL is going great IMHO. Never done that much. I am meeting new people and enjoying myself doing this. Fixing my home and GAL are major for me these weeks. My business situation and medical issues are unchanged and since I can�t do that much until the end of august I just leave them be for now.

I feel good in general but W is constantly on my mind! I do not work against this since I believe only time will change this and at the same time I don�t feel sad or sorry � it is more the feeling of wondering about why I let this happen that hits me. I had a session at my shrink yesterday and addressed two issues. Why I let this happen and how to get the changes in me to sink all the way in. It was a good session but it should have lasted a day and not just an hour. I am getting closer to the answers but still have a lifetime of work that I would like to do on me and my living. This keeps me going and since I now realize my own changes I feel confident, busy and good.

Sandi,

You and your wise post have kept my head spinning but I have reached a conclusion and if you will back me up on this one I will go all the way with it!

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

I see I have pursued but for the last months the pursuing has been for me! I needed to feel that I had given things a shot! I do get your point! I don�t believe that I have pursued her daily or even weekly but rather in certain situations. I have followed my DB-coaches advice and this could come out as pursuing. I have had doubts about this touching-advice for so long but everybody has told me to go with it!
The above is not a defense it is just to give you my point of view and I definitely see that I have done a lot more pursuing than LRT suggests.
I will never look at your texting as harsh � to me it is caring and LBHs (like me!) needs to rough words to comprehend and even then we don�t.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

You really have no doubts that she would be attracted to you today.....if not for the history? My, but that almost sounds like a confident man! So why the fear? Yes, history can be held against the LBH, but it can also be a plus for the LBH. She's the mother of your kids, after all.

No doubts! And yes: My confidence is back!
What I fear is to make mistakes in all of this. I want a shot at R badly and therefore I want to do what�s right! I am realizing that I have to do good for me first and I am doing this. This is also what gave me my confidence back.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

I remember how you didn't understand why she was leaving b/c you had such a great R. That has to count for something. Besides, you've heard about women changing their minds!

When we met! The last months or years have been rough and ending with me withdrawing prior to BD.
Nope, never heard of a woman changing her mind

ILU, IDLU, D, R � and then all over again � firm as a rock!

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

I agree and also knew this when I initiated. I do think I even posted this before I initiated but I needed to do this for me. When I look back at this in years to come I want to be sure that I gave her every chance possible. I know this properly isn�t wise � also knew this when I did it.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

I haven�t pursued sex after BD even once. I haven�t tried to even kiss her. This was prior to BD. I pursued her then and I believe her statement refers to that and how I have been able to live without sex for five months.
I believe she is referring to me standing up! I have done this every time she touched a boundary of mine and quite firmly!

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Are you referring to sex?

Nope, I was referring to our R in general and the statements I got on 23 July.

CAKEEATING
I haven�t helped her! I did once help her shortly with her new budget but realized that this was wrong. Otherwise I haven�t done anything for her but one. Playing family! See, I didn�t realize this was cake-eating. In fact I thought I was doing the right thing but I do get you just never looked at it this way.
I agree on your statements about this!

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

I do realize this and at the same time there is nothing I can be sure of. I also realize that this goes both ways! I will keep on working me and keep on developing me, my values, my boundaries, my GAL and at the same time I will realize that she can meet OM tomorrow or I can meet OW. My goal will be R until something else tells me to go in another direction to pursue happiness for myself and my children.
You can�t kill my hope � only I can do that! But you can make me realize what lies ahead. I believe I already do!

Well, I will change my path but for me to be successful in doing this I need strict goals and rules of conduct and I hope you will help me on this one:

GOALS:
Keep, update and evaluate a list of goals and 180s
Continue journaling in here
Get my business situation and thereby income stabilized.
Get my medical issue solved and possible go through surgery
Fix my home
Work my 180s
Try to follow thoughts � being more spontaneous.

KIDS
When kids are here � Focus on them, by:
No work when they are awake
No long phonecalls
Doing at least one thing out of the house with them, when they are here for weekends.
Involving them in daily life like cooking, cleaning etc. and accepting that this will be on their timeframe

ME
When alone focus on me by:
GAL
Work my goals
Exercize
Sleep

W:
I won�t initiate any contact unless urgent matters regarding children.
I will refuse any invitation except Christmas, birthdays, first school day and likewise.
I won�t answer her calls and since I don�t have and don�t want VM �she will just have to text or mail me.
I won�t enter her home
If she asks direct questions I will answer them in short sentences
I will ask her to get the rest of her belongings out of MY house
I will still be kind, smiling and nice (but short in words) when we talk
If W at some point asks me something I won�t answer until I am sure that my answer is one that doesn�t regard my wish for R
I won�t accept the key to her house that she wants me to have and I want her key to my house back.
I will remove her pictures except the one on the children�s family wall.

QUESTIONS:
Any adding�s, comments or suggestions to the list above.

1/
Prior to BD I withdrew and went silent. Do you see this as a problem or do you believe that she has seen the changes? MWD seems to suggest not going dark/dim if this is an issue and I believe it is!

2/
What do I answer if she ask: Why don�t you call back? Why don�t you want to talk? Why don�t you accept my invitations?�.and likewise. I see this coming and would like to be prepared!
Should I just go with: Well, I don�t feel like doing it and if she ask why just back off immediately and tell her that this is just how I feel.

3/
I also believe she will involve others when I go dark/dim and that I might get the same questions from her family or mutual friends. How should I handle myself and how should I answer if this happens?

4/
What should I do about FB. I don�t use FB more than once or twice a month but should I defriend her and if so what about her family and mutual friends?

5/
How should I handle myself around XW1 � please read my previous post about her acting�s.

6/
How do I get looks and words like Rhett Butler

Just kidding! I have made major changes already and feel good. I am not Rhett but F will have to do for the moment.

Sandi � Thanks a million once again! I hope you will help me in the time to come.

F

"XW1 has been very communication and yesterday she went completely ballistic. She invited me to join her and S10 on a short skiing trip right after new-year. I believe she is just taking advantage of the situation and that she only wants S10 to have us both around him now that this is possible � but still it is a peculiar situation. I said thank you and that I would consider this. We also � on S10s initiative � are going together to a movie on Monday."

You asked if this would work against your goal to R. Are you referring to the ski trip or all this communication from XW1? Don't you find it rather odd that your XW has become so chummy? Has she ever invited you on a trip after the D and you and present W were together?

"I see I have pursued but for the last months the pursuing has been for me! I needed to feel that I had given things a shot! I do get your point! I don�t believe that I have pursued her daily or even weekly but rather in certain situations"

I had to smile a sad little smile, b/c of the difference in men & women's thinking. Of course the pursuing was for you! Isn't it the nature of men? That is why it is so easy to fall back into pursuing behaviors, even when the H knows nothing else to do. Isn't that what you men see as working the relationship? It is how you guys see "taking a shot at it". That is why men feel they are doing nothing when we tell them to stop pursuing. And it really didn't matter that you weren't doing it every day or in certain situations. It was still pursuing in the eyes of your WAW. However, now you have decided to stop all pursuing, and that is a good decision.

"I have followed my DB-coaches advice and this could come out as pursuing. I have had doubts about this touching-advice for so long but everybody has told me to go with it!"

I never understood the coaches advice, but I try not to go directly against what they say. If I recall, your W's LL was PT, and she responded positively, instead of jerking away. So, look at it this way, you followed coach's advice and gave the PT and tried to make the R what you thought your W wanted. But she stuck with her decision to leave you, take the kids, and breakup the family. So now, things need to take a sharp turn.

"What I fear is to make mistakes in all of this. I want a shot at R badly and therefore I want to do what�s right! I am realizing that I have to do good for me first and I am doing this. This is also what gave me my confidence back. "

You are getting the shot right now! You just can't see it b/c neither of you have completed necessary steps in order for a R to be completed. We are going to work on those steps, right?

Remember how different men & women are in relationships. He doesn't listen until she drops the bomb b/c she feels done........and what does he do? He is suddenly wide awake and committed. It seems rather difficult for him to get the timing right. So I understand you don't want to mess up the chance to reconcile, and that is why I hope we can help you see what you do during this time of separation will affect how quickly she moves back. And.....if you have no doubt she's attracted to you, it may be very soon indeed. From what I have read over the years, "most" WAW's aren't feeling the attraction.

"I haven�t pursued sex after BD even once. I haven�t tried to even kiss her. This was prior to BD. I pursued her then and I believe her statement refers to that and how I have been able to live without sex for five months."

Well, I guess I got confused over the wording in her letter and the pre-bomb & post-BD. She is nice, she likes the PT, and is attracted to you, but writes this message that sounds pretty clear she isn't interested. Maybe I can't keep up with what's going on.

"Playing family! See, I didn�t realize this was cake-eating. In fact I thought I was doing the right thing but I do get you just never looked at it this way."

Oh yeah, and men get sucked into the WAW telling them they want to be best friends and continue to do things together "for the children". It is one of the worst traps for a LBH'S who is grasping at any straw, and thinking he can be her friend and that will lead to a reconciliation. I have not seen it happen like that yet! I won't get into all the reasons right now, but you don't want to be her BFF hanging around like girl friends.

I've got to finish up for tonight b/c my hands are really hurting. Besides, I think I am saying stuff I've already been over in the last post. think your goals are fine. I will try to answer your questions tomorrow.

Prior to BD I withdrew and went silent. Do you see this as a problem or do you believe that she has seen the changes? MWD seems to suggest not going dark/dim if this is an issue and I believe it is!"

You are in a new position now. You showed her your changes, before she left but she still chose to leave and not work on the R. From this point on, you must look at it with that mindset.

"What do I answer if she ask: Why don�t you call back? Why don�t you want to talk? Why don�t you accept my invitations?�.and likewise. I see this coming and would like to be prepared! Should I just go with: Well, I don�t feel like doing it and if she ask why just back off immediately and tell her that this is just how I feel."

Don't make up excuses. Don't tell her you don't feel like it. You aim this at her choice. This is the result of her choices. Simlply tell her that she chose to leave the R and along with her leaving...came a different R for the two of you. She should have realized things would be different. If she continues to ask about it, then tell her that You will continue to co-parent but you will not be available for a buddy-buddy R with her. You will be friendly, but she rejected the R she had with you, so why should you want to be her BFF?

Don't fear her getting mad, b/c she probably will, but when you do tell her this...you pick up the reigns to what you want in a future R with her. Understand? She won't like it and may spew, but that is okay. You don't have to stand there and listen.

The point is to shift gears so she can get to the place that she misses you as a H and lover. She can make friends with anyone, but if you try to be her BFF you will be in limbo with her forever. Just don't get into that trap.

"I also believe she will involve others when I go dark/dim and that I might get the same questions from her family or mutual friends. How should I handle myself and how should I answer if this happens?"

That is another trap. Don't discuss it with anyone. If you must give an answer, simply say, "She made the choice to leave me, not the other way around. Now I move forward.". Then end the conversation right there. Refuse to listen or answer any more. She may try to have someone to intervene for her, but don't play that game.

"What should I do about FB. I don�t use FB more than once or twice a month but should I defriend her and if so what about her family and mutual friends?"

Defriend her! Be prepared for her not to like it, but so what? This is part of the plan. It hits her up beside the head that you don't have any interest to be a buddy of hers. You wanted a R that was set apart from friendship. You won't settle for being her buddy. (This is what I'm telling you. ). But if she asks, just reply with, "What did you expect after you left?". Just don't get into a conversation (which you tend to want to do.)

"How should I handle myself around XW1 � please read my previous post about her acting�s. "

I don't think you need to get chummy with her either. You are still vulnerable to a point, and it seems she is taking advantage of it. I think you need to be very, very careful of XW1.....if you want to R with your present W. I don't trust a females who do what she's doing.

I would turn down invitations that included either of your XW's with their children. You can tell XW1 that you need to not be involved in family-style togetherness for a good while. You don't have to give her a reason. You do need time, and you sure don't need an XW confusing issues for you.

I think you need to stay away from your present W's relatives for a while. It helps keep down confusion, confronting nosy questions, etc.

Make your own plans for the kids to have their birthday parties with at your house without the W. She can have them a party at her place. These are some of those hard bridges to cross, but it will hit her with the reality of her choice to breakup the family. Same at Christmastime. Very hard to think about right now, and don't bring it up to her, but just know that you will need to deal with it. No more shared family events with her. No more shared time with the kids. This needs to hit her right between the eyes.

The goal is not about upsetting her, or making yourself look mean. The goal is to push reality of her choice to live a separated life from you and sharing a home where she could experience all the shared times. Holidays are not shared between couples who are D. You want her to see how the future will be without you being there with her.

So, make plans for the kids to celebrate holidays apart from their mom. It may have to be on a different calandar date, but you still have the celebration. Does that make sense?

When you do see her or speak with her, you continue to be polite and even "warmly" if possible, but you do not allow her to take advantage. You are friendly, but not friends. This gap needs to happen in order for her to see the reality of what she has done. She thought you would continue to be her buddy while she pursued a different life. I don't think she ever thought you would cut her out of your life. And, that is exactly what she needs to think. "F doesn't want to be with me". "What have I done?".

Of course her emotions will run every which way before she starts considering moving back. Long before that happens, she will start taking relationship temperature checks just to assure herself that she still has you in her back pocket, emotionally. But, that is a ways off.

This will not be the easiest thing you've had to do, but I believe you will be a little surprised to discover the strength you will gain from this plan. Keep your eyes on the goal.

"She should have realized things would be different. If she continues to ask about it, then tell her that You will continue to co-parent but you will not be available for a buddy-buddy R with her. You will be friendly, but she rejected the R she had with you, so why should you want to be her BFF?"
Fully agree with sandi2 here. I do not want to be buddies with the W. I want to work on our relationship/marriage. I want to be best friends and lovers as part of being married. Not friends because we have divorced/separated.
F, I think everything above is the way you need to go. Your W does need to see what the other side of the fence is like, greener or browner grass? It may be green for a few months, but then if it isn't watered or looked after, it goes brown.
One of the quotes I heard over the last few months was: "The grass is always greener on the other side, as it is fertilized with a lot of b**lsh*t."
Take care F and keep the PMA.

Sandi,

Thanks a million!

I am now LRT! After reading your posts I considered cancelling the concert W, MIL, SIL MIL friend I attended this evening but I didn�t!
Reasons: First off all I am properly the biggest Leonard Cohen fan in northern Europe and this could be my one and only chance to see him live! He was awesome! Secondly I wanted to show off the new me to MIL and SIL � I believe I did well. Finally I wanted to see how W would act around me. She was all touching and nice. I didn�t respond to her touching once, I followed your advice on the answering, I didn�t accept her invitation to meet up at her house and when we split up I gave her money for the trainticket and insisted she took them.
I am ready and I am all yours � Please do guide me as this progresses.

XW1

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

You asked if this would work against your goal to R. Are you referring to the ski trip or all this communication from XW1? Don't you find it rather odd that your XW has become so chummy? Has she ever invited you on a trip after the D and you and present W were together?

She has never invited me on anything like this! I don�t believe there is anything to it but I get your point � I will call her tomorrow and tell her that I won�t go. I don�t want to get chummy with her at all � I wanted to please S10. I wanted to give him a chance to have mum and dad at the same time. We D when he was 9 months so he never tried this � he talks about it a lot. I will go to the movies since I promised S10 this and then I will back off and decline invitations.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

I don't trust a females who do what she's doing.

I get you and by the way I also have a trust issue around women these days

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

I never understood the coaches advice, but I try not to go directly against what they say. If I recall, your W's LL was PT, and she responded positively, instead of jerking away. So, look at it this way, you followed coach's advice and gave the PT and tried to make the R what you thought your W wanted. But she stuck with her decision to leave you, take the kids, and breakup the family. So now, things need to take a sharp turn.

She is PT and QT.
She did stick with her decision but I have felt the doubt in her so many times. I believe (perhaps because I need to) that these months living together has put me in a better position. I have worked myself and we have shared many wonderful moments with the children. Hopefully this will work in her memory � if she remembers.
Coach�s advice and the advice from different people in here have kept me confused. It seems like there are many different angles towards DB. I wouldn�t have been ready or able to go LRT before now�not while so confused and living together. I feel much stronger now. I feel prepared.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

You are getting the shot right now! You just can't see it b/c neither of you have completed necessary steps in order for a R to be completed. We are going to work on those steps, right?

Oh, yes! I f you will guide me and lecture me on this one I promise you a capable and listening student.
You properly already knows this from following me but I do need strict rules, I need clarity, I need to feel prepared � properly like most men. I need to be able to put my tools in small boxes so I can find the right one when I need it.
Do you get me on this one?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

And.....if you have no doubt she's attracted to you, it may be very soon indeed. From what I have read over the years, "most" WAW's aren't feeling the attraction.

I believe I wrote that if it wasn�t for our history�.I don�t believe she is attracted to me right now but if she is not �one and gone� then I believe she could be in the future.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Well, I guess I got confused over the wording in her letter and the pre-bomb & post-BD. She is nice, she likes the PT, and is attracted to you, but writes this message that sounds pretty clear she isn't interested. Maybe I can't keep up with what's going on.

She didn�t write anything to me. You properly got confused due to my bad writing. The statements from 23. July was sayings.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Oh yeah, and men get sucked into the WAW telling them they want to be best friends and continue to do things together "for the children". It is one of the worst traps for a LBH'S who is grasping at any straw, and thinking he can be her friend and that will lead to a reconciliation. I have not seen it happen like that yet! I won't get into all the reasons right now, but you don't want to be her BFF hanging around like girl friends.

This has also gotten me a little confused. I have read many posts mentioning friendly stage but then again I haven�t kept track of how many of these that ended with R.
I won�t get sucked into this! I will be very hard on me refusing the children time with us both but I get you and I will do it to the best of my abilities.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

You are in a new position now. You showed her your changes, before she left but she still chose to leave and not work on the R. From this point on, you must look at it with that mindset.

Will do!

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Don't fear her getting mad, b/c she probably will, but when you do tell her this...you pick up the reigns to what you want in a future R with her. Understand? She won't like it and may spew, but that is okay. You don't have to stand there and listen.

I am not sure I understand this �reigns�-thing. Perhaps it is due to my English � I don�t know. Would you clarify for me?
I haven�t got a problem with her spewings anymore. I have left convos when she has started spewing for the last two months or more. Should I still validate her feelings?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

That is another trap. Don't discuss it with anyone. If you must give an answer, simply say, "She made the choice to leave me, not the other way around. Now I move forward.". Then end the conversation right there. Refuse to listen or answer any more. She may try to have someone to intervene for her, but don't play that game.

I would simply love to give this answer � I am looking forward to doing it in fact! I have been told in here not to tell this and just to say something like �We are going through some rough times� or something like that! Is this change also due to LRT?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

I think you need to stay away from your present W's relatives for a while. It helps keep down confusion, confronting nosy questions, etc.

Her cousin is a very dear friend of mine. We have discussed the sit once and then agreed to leave it be. I would simply hate to break of friendship with him. I am much closer with him than she is � I believe. I haven�t contacted her relatives but him and I won�t.
Since I started serious GAL I have made two new buddies. The issue is that these guys are both married two women from Ws mothersgroup. They have asked some questions but I do not discuss sit with them. We go to the movies, meet up for cardgame, help each other and so on. Beside these two guys and Ws cousin I see no problems in staying away.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Defriend her!

This is hard on me because this is an action. I have never defriended anybody and I don�t know anybody that has ever done that. Could this be cultural and thereby something not to do?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Make your own plans for the kids to have their birthday parties with at your house without the W..

I will do this but it will be difficult. My family is either broken up or dead � I have no relatives. I do have a lot of friends and I will start now trying to arrange something for Christmas. Birthdays will be easier since friends will attend if I invite them. This will make her spew MAJOR bolts of lightning so I will have to be prepared.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

The goal is not about upsetting her, or making yourself look mean.

She will properly look at this from a different angle and that�s why the following will be extremely important.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

When you do see her or speak with her, you continue to be polite and even "warmly" if possible�.

Could you clarify warmly? Do you mean hugs? Not entering her house won�t come out as warmly IMO�.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

She thought you would continue to be her buddy while she pursued a different life. I don't think she ever thought you would cut her out of your life.

She is still living in this! I saw it tonight at the concert as I have seen it for so long!

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Of course her emotions will run every which way before she starts considering moving back. Long before that happens, she will start taking relationship temperature checks just to assure herself that she still has you in her back pocket, emotionally. But, that is a ways off.

I agree! I have been following T1000 for a long time and read you advices in his thread. I hope I will be able to handle myself and reject her if my sit ever goes as far as Ts.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

This will not be the easiest thing you've had to do, but I believe you will be a little surprised to discover the strength you will gain from this plan. Keep your eyes on the goal.

I will keep my eyes on the goal and I will do my best to follow through. I know there�s a rough and difficult time ahead but I also believe that if I am prepared for things to come I will cope!

I think I am starting to get the picture but I still need to get myself settled in this and that will properly take some weeks or months. As I read the principals of this I am to avoid contact if possible and if this is not possible then be nice, pleasant and attractive when I talk to W. If this is the path I will have to work a little more on my code of conduct.
Did you have any additions to my list?

I won�t initiate any contact unless urgent matters regarding children.
I will refuse any invitation except Christmas, birthdays, first school day and likewise.
I won�t answer her calls and since I don�t have and don�t want VM �she will just have to text or mail me.
I won�t enter her home
If she asks direct questions I will answer them in short sentences
I will ask her to get the rest of her belongings out of MY house
I will still be kind, smiling and nice (but short in words) when we talk
If W at some point asks me something I won�t answer until I am sure that my answer is one that doesn�t regard my wish for R
I won�t accept the key to her house that she wants me to have and I want her key to my house back.
I will remove her pictures except the one on the children�s family wall.

What about the scout-issue:

Originally Posted By: F

D6 is a girl scout on Wednesdays for 5PM � 6.30PM and this present a problem. Scouting is 15 min from here and this means that D4 will have to spend an hour in a car and that our eating time will be very late.
When W asked me about D6 attending I told her that this could be a problem. W got disappointed and a little angry. In fact she ended up telling me that I have to call D6 and tell her that she can�t scout because of me. (Funny when compared to the not blaming her for BD) I instantly backed out when she got angry and just told her that we can discuss this matter at a different time.

At the moment I feel like telling W that this won�t work. Dinner will be very late and bedtime therefore as well � doesn�t work on a Wednesday! What do you think?

I have read so much about validating feelings - should I continue doing this in your opinion! If she spew about me not wanting to spend time together then go: "I can see why you feel that way but....." or something like that?

Well, Sandi! Thanks don�t cover my gratefulness towards you at the moment and my English vocabulary isn�t enough � so thanks!!!!
I hope you will guide me and work with me in the time to come � I am all yours!

F

How long has it been since she stayed the first night in her new place? I really, REALLY wish you would have started this path the day she left b/c it would have been less complicated. However, it is still, IMO, the way you need to go.

When I say less complicated, look at this trip to the concert with her and her family. Since you have waited till now to use the LRT, she may be more confused by your actions to step away from her...."now". B/c you were acting like her buddy. See what I mean? So, it still works, but may take longer. Just want you to understand.

Okay, about your XW1 and you wanting to show son what it is like to have both parents together. My D left her H when she was pregnant, so I know how your S wants the two of you together. However, if you were to start going out as a "family", it would up his hopes that his parents would get remarried. IMHO, it prolongs and adds to the inevitable disappointment he will experience when it doesn't occur. Lease don't get his hopes up, only to disappoint him later.

In response to the different advice you have received on the board, I don't want to offend anyone in what I am about to say. First and foremost, my advice is not foolproof in every case. I only have a small window to see what the poster reveals. If you notice, the majority of newcomers are other left behind spouses. The majority are just like you......new. They can identify with your pain. They can tell you what has not worked in their stitch. They can try to encourage each other. Very few members are WAS who R their M are here on the board trying to help LBS. Right? That is one reason I stick around b/c you all do not get many who will tell you what works or doesn't work from the view point of the WAS. So, what I'm saying is you have to take in account how old the person is, how long they have been M, how long they have been on the board, and which side of the fence they experienced. I know there have been sometimes I would be talking to some LBH, trying to explain what doesn't work with a WAW.......then some other LBS newcomer would come along and say just the opposite, or near about it. I sure understand how you could get confused. I have read some people's report of what their coach advised that I did not,agree with, but the coach has been trained, so I usually back off rather than oppose. Just bear in mind the people on the board are not professional. The majority Re in the same boat with you.

"She didn�t write anything to me. You properly got confused due to my bad writing. The statements from 23. July was sayings."

It is confusing! I suggest you not write about pre-bomb times or something that she said a couple of months ago. Maybe this will cut back on the updated facts. Remember how confusing T100's posts became b/c he would write an entire thread of several ways mhe was THINKING of saying something to his W? I believe he has stopped doing that and it helps a lot.

"This has also gotten me a little confused. I have read many posts mentioning friendly stage but then again I haven�t kept track of how many of these that ended with R."

But that is usually after there was a lot of fighting between the couple, or the WAS was having nothing to do with the LBS. what I want you to see here is there needs to be a break.....a gap......a space of time......before a couple is ready for that stage. Your W has been a little different, but as we've said, you have made things really easy for her. She is wanting to go to concerts with you. That is unusual, compared to others. And if you want to continue as things are right now, just say so. I can't promise you that your W will R with you by doing it this way. I believe you stand a better chance of R the M, but you have to make that decision and own it. I don't want you to come back later and say if you had not listen to Sandi you would have R the M. Okay? I am not a professional MC.

"I am not sure I understand this �reigns�-thing. Perhaps it is due to my English � I don�t know. Would you clarify for me?"

Sorry, I forget. It is an expression, like using the reigns to control which way a horse goes. When you have the reigns, you are in control.

"I would simply love to give this answer � I am looking forward to doing it in fact! I have been told in here not to tell this and just to say something like �We are going through some rough times� or something like that! Is this change also due to LRT?"

Yes, that is what you tell people in the beginning. It is part of that general over-all advice passed along on the board. But you have been here long enough so we can specific to your stitch. And, expect some newcomer to come behind me and say not to give answers to friends & relatives. What you need to understand is you are in a different position now than when you first arrived. And, I am not saying you are to get into discussions with her family & friends. I am saying with certain one (like you mentioned) who ask why you aren't spending time with her (or having long chats, or whatever), you can tell them that she chose to end the M and you are moving forward. If they are rude enough to ask you what that means, or other questions....you jthen tell them you aren't going to discuss it any further. Now, do you understand what I am saying? I don't want you to be confused, so ask questions if you are.

Regarding you giving her validation when she is "spewing" at you . I will give that some study, but right now I am thinking the only time you should valadte her is when it has anything with the kids, otherwise, if she spews at you, you shut it down, say "let's not talk about this further", and then end it. I understand the validating when you are trying to get her to stay in the M with you. But after she leaves, I don't think you should have that o. Your list of "to do's". If the she comes around to have a real R with you, then you can go back to the lavaditatiom, I just don't think a lot of men are gifted in this area and they come across in a pathetic way, not saying you did, but some do. Some sound like they doing nothing more than kissing tail.

I need to turn in for the night, I'm really tird. We'll tektite some of these issues as they come,

Wow F, you are very lucky to get some serious advice from sandi2. In saying that, good advice to F from you sandi2.

As soon as I read this:
"This will make her spew MAJOR bolts of lightning so I will have to be prepared."

It made me realise how much this is the right path for you right now F.

It's S3's birthday in just over 2.5 weeks. I have agreed to spend the day with S3 and W for his birthday. I am also prepared that it may not happen and the S1's birthday in 1 month might be just me and the kids.

The things that are the hardest to to do are often the most affective. It might feel like the kids are losing out because of your actions but if it well help R with W it should be worth it in the end for the kids.

If your short on relatives for kids birthdays take them somewhere fun like a theme park, somewhere where other people aren't needed.

W and I have agreed to spend less on the kids this year so we can afford MC. Giving them both parents together is the best gift we could ever give them.

T1000, you are another example of being in a different shift or position from some other newcomers. You will get a little different advice than F. Each stitch is on different levels, so the advice may shift of be more individually based regarding where you are presently.

Sandi,

Thanks again � I hope you slept well!
I am off to bed soon! I have been helping one of these mutual friends working his garden today � it has been nice. They posted a nice picture of me on FB and at the same time W posted about us attending the concert. This last thing makes me realize how much she needs to tell the world that this was the right decision and properly also that we agree on this�.
Weekend is over and tomorrow the girls leave me for 9 days � that�s going to be hard.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

How long has it been since she stayed the first night in her new place? I really, REALLY wish you would have started this path the day she left b/c it would have been less complicated.

August 1. was the first night. We have seen each other a few times since then, she has contacted me several times and I think I have only called or contacted her getting back to her. I agree but was advised to stick with the 3-1. I can�t change this now. I don't think my chit-cahtting is nearly as much as I read you - I have withdrawn A LOT! I haven't told her anything about whats going on in my life for two weeks. I have answered her questions but that's it.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

When I say less complicated, look at this trip to the concert with her and her family. Since you have waited till now to use the LRT, she may be more confused by your actions to step away from her...."now". B/c you were acting like her buddy. See what I mean? So, it still works, but may take longer. Just want you to understand

Buddy means the same as friend to me and if that�s true I haven�t been her buddy since she moved. It has almost only been practical stuff and children.
I haven�t been hanging around her place � in fact I have only been there at one occation and that was D6 first day at school. She has been here eating once and that was a major mistake. I can clearly see her family-cake-eating on this occasion in the rear view. I haven�t offered my help, my ear or anything except at this occasion so I do hope the fault is not too big.

I agree about the XW1 �matter and I have already called her and told her I wouldn�t go.

I get you on the advice/coaching part and do agree with. Let�s just leave this be � can�t change anything!

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

It is confusing! I suggest you not write about pre-bomb times or something that she said a couple of months ago. Maybe this will cut back on the updated facts. Remember how confusing T100's posts became b/c he would write an entire thread of several ways mhe was THINKING of saying something to his W? I believe he has stopped doing that and it helps a lot.

I will try to stick with the present and the facts � please 2x4 me if I backslide on this one.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

But that is usually after there was a lot of fighting between the couple, or the WAS was having nothing to do with the LBS. what I want you to see here is there needs to be a break.....a gap......a space of time......before a couple is ready for that stage. Your W has been a little different, but as we've said, you have made things really easy for her. She is wanting to go to concerts with you. That is unusual, compared to others. And if you want to continue as things are right now, just say so. I can't promise you that your W will R with you by doing it this way. I believe you stand a better chance of R the M, but you have to make that decision and own it. I don't want you to come back later and say if you had not listen to Sandi you would have R the M. Okay? I am not a professional MC.

I get you on the break/friendly stage � just never read this explanation anywhere. That�s properly just me! I understand it. She is not just wanting to go to concerts � she wants christmas, birthdays, newyear, weekly dinners and this is just what she has told me to my face. I do not want to continue things as they are now and I know you can�t promise me anything. It is my decision to go with your advice and therefore the only one to blame in all of this is me. I don�t know the chances for R but right now I believe a full-blown LRT gives the best chances and that�s my personal belief � I would never ever dream of holding anything from this forum against you or anybody else.

Got you on the reign!

I do believe I got you on the explanation towards her and friends and I will aim my response towards her decision. If she wants clarification I will tell her that I don�t feel like being friends and at the same time that I will not be unfriendly towards her. If friends wants clarification I will tell them that this is what I need to do right now for me to be able to move forward. If they ask further I will end it. I believe the mutual friends and the cousin will accept this answer without holding anything against me�and if they don�t that�s just too bad.
If you agree I will practice this until I got the wordings right. Do you agree?

I will continue validating her feelings around the children. As an example the scouting issue will demand this. She came down hard on me when I told her that I saw problems in regards of D6 attending this and told me that I would have to tell this to D6 and take the blame.
I have practiced validating but I am not very good at it.

A FEW QUESTIONS FROM LAST POST:
Could you clarify on warmly?
What is your thought on the scouting-issue?
Should I hold back on the defriending on FB when circumstances are as written?

F

HWA, T1000

Thanks for pulling and supporting - as always it means a lot!
I have been confused about wich path to choose after she moved out - but now it is clear and that makes me feel calm and good.
Sandi advice has made it all clear to me but I still need to get the rules of conduct in my future doings and sayings sorted out totally.
I will work this and time will be my buddy!

F

You will get there F. I believe you have a very good chance with your sitch. Now with help from sandi2 and your ability to follow the rules, it has an even better chance.
Time will be your buddy.

I'm not sure what you mean about the scouts. What I remember reading, i agreed with you that it was entirely too long for the little one to stay in car. Just b/c your W is telling the kids they can do something, and putting it off on you, does not need to become an issue. State what you will and will not do. In other words, if this was her idea for D to join scouts, but she did not consult with you, then why take responsibility for transporting them and causing stress for the younger D? Your W created the problem so she should be the one to either take responsibility or have the talk with D. She can't just pick and choose the parts that make her look like the great parent and then expect you to do the labor of carrying it out.

Back to something you said,

" agree but was advised to stick with the 3-1. I can�t change this now. "

What do you mean you can't change it? You have to stop any initiating contact. You can't have some percentage of initiating! You are in a different position now. If you initiate contact one time to her three....you might as well forget this whole plan.

You can't deferent her on FB and still have some kind of 3-1 contact rule. That's nuts. (btw, don't defriend her yet.)

Let me know before I continue. It is your life and you aren't here to please me. It won't make me angry and I am not saying you can't listen to anyone but me. I just don't want to spend a lot of time and mental energy if you are going to hang on to initiating contacts. That is not LRT, and it certainly is not showing her you are dropping the rope. Every time you initiate contact, it will set you back to the starting line. It aides her in her cake eating.

"I will continue validating her feelings around the children. As an example the scouting issue will demand this. She came down hard on me when I told her that I saw problems in regards of D6 attending this and told me that I would have to tell this to D6 and take the blame. "

I do not agree with validating her. You said you are not very good at it, and it could make you appear more like you are buttering up your W just to keep her in a better mood. This is another down side for her leaving the R. Why would you validate? And please don't tell me it is b/c somebody gave that advice. Guess what, things are different now.

"Could you clarify on warmly?"

Just disregard that word. It will only add more confusion. I should not have used that term.

Sandi,

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

What do you mean you can't change it? You have to stop any initiating contact. You can't have some percentage of initiating! You are in a different position now. If you initiate contact one time to her three....you might as well forget this whole plan.

I can�t change the past � that�s what I meant! I was only referring to what is done is done�.
I don�t and I won�t initiate contact � I follow the rules that are in my list to the best of my abilities.
Sorry that I was unclear!

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

You can't deferent her on FB and still have some kind of 3-1 contact rule. That's nuts. (btw, don't defriend her yet.)

The same applies here � 3-1 rule is gone!! Now it is 1000-0 unless something about children.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

I'm not sure what you mean about the scouts. What I remember reading, i agreed with you that it was entirely too long for the little one to stay in car.

I have given this a lot of thoughts since I received several comments on this one. I will tell W that I think it isn�t good for D4 and D6 to eat so late, get late to bed and so on. I will also tell her that this is the reason for me not promising to take D6 to scout. If she wants me to take the blame I believe I will tell that this is due to her choices and not mine and if she wishes that I state this to the children I will do so.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

I do not agree with validating her. You said you are not very good at it, and it could make you appear more like you are buttering up your W just to keep her in a better mood. This is another down side for her leaving the R. Why would you validate? And please don't tell me it is b/c somebody gave that advice. Guess what, things are different now.

It has to do with advice given to me�.sorry to say. I would validate to show that I am understanding guy. I understand that things are different but you told me to be pleasant when I talk to her � I believe validating adds to pleasant � am I wrong?

I am confused about how to act when I speak to her and meet her!
I get the few words and the being kind but could you write more about this issue?
What about the 37 rules � are they also gone? Do I need a new set of rules?

F

Doing good F. Keep it up, keep asking questions.

Oh good, I am relieved to know it was miscommunication.

I'm sorry if this is causing confusion or frustration for you. That is not what I wanted to do. You may have to think of yourself entering a different "phase" of DBing. Some of the former advice may not be what you need to do at the present time, so it needs to be "tweaked" a bit.

From what I am seeing you say about validation, you relate it with the persona you present to your W. if I am incorrect, please straighten it out for me.

The way I understand validation, is it is something you say or do to cause the other person to feel that their words are valid, and that their actions are valid, their feelings are valid, and so on. In other words, you are assuring them that they have a right for whatever they say, do, or feel. My dictionary define validation as declaring something legal.

When she was living under your roof and you were trying to show her you were "awaken" by her BD, it was fine to validate to a point. But somewhere along time, some have began blurring the lines of what validation means, IMHO. But anyway, she is not living in your home and she has made decisions you do not agree with her about it. The two of you are not man & wife legally. I do not believe you should wrack your brain trying to find something to "validate" her, just to make her feel good about what she's done. Like I said before, keep focused on the level this R is in at the present time. It has shifted.
Do not confuse a compliment or a nice gester or a friendly personality with giving her validation. Maybe you should not worry about the word "validate" for the time being, since it seems a little confusing. I think some people pass that word along in DBing posts....and do not know the definition, I was here when it started being passed around, and it's still going.

""I am confused about how to act when I speak to her and meet her!
I get the few words and the being kind but could you write more about this issue?
What about the 37 rules � are they also gone? Do I need a new set of rules?"

Maybe you should forget the word "validate" for the time being, since it adds confusion. Okay?

How to speak to her and meet her: Nicely, politely, friendly, curtious..........as if she was someone you just met. You don't try to keep her engaged in a conversation, but you graciously answer her questions (that concern the children or joint property). In other words, it is like a business arrangement. You are nice, smile, polite, etc., but you don't care to spend any time with them. If you see yourself getting pulled in a chatty talk, you graciously end it.

This seems very odd to conduct yourself with a woman you have lived with and had your children. You will feel like you are an actor in a play. It will seem strange. It will not be what your emotions want. You understand that, right? You will come back here and tell me that's just not "you" and you will have to do it "your way" (whatever that is). But if you can stick it out, you will begin to feel better (according to reports from previous LBH's). It will give you strength to pull back emotionally and really begin enjoying life apart from your W.

While you are enjoying life apart from her, she will be going through a lot of "stuff" of her own. Oh, I'm sure she will present a happy face to everyone. Her pride will carry her along for a while. But she will be watching you and wanting to know what you are doing and why you aren't interested in being chums with her.

Now, I am not telling you to discuss the R with her, when I make the following statement, okay? She will ask you what's going on that you suddenly don't have time for to talk (or whatever). So, in order to keep her being extremely angry, I believe you should tell her in as few sentences as possible, that you always wanted a relationship with her that was set apart from the category called "friends". However, since she made her decision to leave that relationship, you must move forward to make a life without her. Be very careful at this point b/c it could easily slip into a R talk, and you can't let it go there. Tell her you don't want to talk about that now.

I think she will tell you that she will always want you to be apart of her and the kids' life. That is when you look deep in her eyes and say, "I intend to always be a part of my children's life. However, you and I will not be sharing family times with the kids. That is what separation is. Living seperate lives."

She may throw a bunch of teary-eyed emotional junk at you, but remain firm. When she tells you, "Can't we be friends?". You softly tell her no. You wanted to be more than a friend, but she didn't b/c she left. (This keeps the focus on her decision to leave.). Don't let her start with something like, "Well, you always............". Hold up your and in "stop" signal. Tell her, "we aren't going to rehash the past right now. Let's just leave this talk where it is for now.". Then tell her bye and leave, hang up, or whatever. But I think this does not need to be said in an email or TM. It is important that she see your face, or at lest, hear your voice. Do you agree?

The difficult part for you will be keeping it short. You may want to tell her to not hesitate if she needs to contact you about the girls. (That pushes your point a little deeper.)

The next time you speak to her over the phone, or see her at the door while exchanging the kids, you always appear happy. Give the kids lots of hugs and kisses. Hold your hand up in a little wave at her and say, "Well, see ya.". Then you leave, with the smile still on your face......as if you are exited to get somewhere.

Some may call it game playing. I call it knowing how women think! She is seeing you looking good and acting upbeat, and thinking to herself, "have I really lost him?".

It will take a long time before she is convinced you won't come around when she invites you. You will see various emotions in her. She has to experience the bad part of her decision to break up her family. She thought she could have you on her terms, her time, her calendar date, be her assistant in child care, and a friend to tell her troubles to. It will be a shock to her emotional system when she sees her fantasy plans crumble. After she has been force to do without her cake eating, then she will begin to doubt her decision and began looking more at what she lost as a result of that decision.

There should not be anything complicated about how you act around her, b/c you won't be around her except a couple of minutes at time, right? And if she calls and starts talking about something that does not refer to the kids, then you say, "I don't want to be rude, but I really have to go now". And if she is dumb enough to ask why.........then just give a soft little chuckle at her and say, "Bye W (whatever her name is.). She may get little huffed about it, but I can almost promise you she will be curious, which is another English word for "interested".

There are various stages she has to go through, and it takes a long time. That is why you must not watch her activity on social networking, or read emails about her problems or job, etc. (apart from the kids).

"I would validate to show that I am understanding guy. I understand that things are different but you told me to be pleasant when I talk to her � I believe validating adds to pleasant � am I wrong?

I am confused about how to act when I speak to her and meet her!
I get the few words and the being kind but could you write more about this issue?
What about the 37 rules � are they also gone? Do I need a new set of rules?"

I'm not trying to answer for Sandi in anyway but I understand where your coming from F and would like to give input.

Other than No.25 being one that might be difficult to apply with what you have been told really your just not being rude:

Quote:

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

What else is there on the list that doesn't fit what you need to do? The list is more about what not to do than anything else and I believe they still apply to you.

It's not easy speaking to W in a different way.
The way I tied to look at it was like asking for directions. The person your asking is a stranger and you would be generally pleasant, polite and nice. You wouldn't talk to them about their feelings and validate them and you wouldn't agree to pay their car bill or go to a concert with them.
If they got knocked over by a cyclist you would help them up, if they had toothache you wouldn't take them to the dentist.

@Sandi
Would you prefer other newcomers or semi-newcomers like myself stay out of things like this to not confuse F in case the advice could be wrong?
It's hard to ignore something on here when you I to reply to but if it's doing more bad than good then should we stay out of it?

lol
Looks like Sandi was on with it anyway.

Thank you F, and Sandi. The dialog between the two of you has been very helpful for me. I am one month post divorce, and have needed to make (in Sandi's words) a sharp turn in how I am interacting with my ex. I realize, of course there may be some slight differences as my ex is H, and male, not female and Sandi is giving advice on the mind of the female, but I think there are many similarities that I can draw from and i greatly appreciate the detail she is describing. I know it seems weird, (in my case 30 years with my exH) to go back to the rules of "courting 101" and all the nuances associated with it, and not hanging on for dear life when the other party has given the signal that they are not interested in the relationship. Maybe our struggle with it is just because it IS so basic......I seem to want to make if more complicated than it really is. At any rate, thank you again for this help, and F, I am right there with you, giving this whole polite, distantly friendly, thing with my ex, a go.

Sandi,

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Oh good, I am relieved to know it was miscommunication.

Sandi, I will stick with my words or let you no otherwise! I want to do this and if I should change my mind somewhere down the road you will be the first one to know. I have felt my strength and confidence return over the last month or two and I feel very motivated - I don�t believe this will change to an extent that will make this change of mind happen.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

I'm sorry if this is causing confusion or frustration for you. That is not what I wanted to do. You may have to think of yourself entering a different "phase" of DBing. Some of the former advice may not be what you need to do at the present time, so it needs to be "tweaked" a bit.

Got it! I have stopped reading so much in here and if I should pick up a new book it will be about self-development and not love, WAS, divorce or the likes. I do this to avoid getting my spinning head confused.
I will go with your advice and properly have a million questions in the time to come.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

From what I am seeing you say about validation, you relate it with the persona you present to your W. if I am incorrect, please straighten it out for me.
The way I understand validation, is it is something you say or do to cause the other person to feel that their words are valid, and that their actions are valid, their feelings are valid, and so on. In other words, you are assuring them that they have a right for whatever they say, do, or feel. My dictionary define validation as declaring something legal.

You are not incorrect!
I would like to add that I also see validation as a way of showing that you care about them, their feelings, their opinions and so on. That�s properly exactly why I have to STOP this now, right?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

How to speak to her and meet her: Nicely, politely, friendly, curtious..........as if she was someone you just met. You don't try to keep her engaged in a conversation, but you graciously answer her questions (that concern the children or joint property). In other words, it is like a business arrangement. You are nice, smile, polite, etc., but you don't care to spend any time with them. If you see yourself getting pulled in a chatty talk, you graciously end it.

Got you but what about when she ask about my work, my home, S10, friends or anything else? Do I answer this shortly or do I answer with out saying anything like,
W: How is business these days.
Me: Well, it ok

W: How is the greenhouse doing?
Me: It doing just fine

Like that?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

This seems very odd to conduct yourself with a woman you have lived with and had your children. You will feel like you are an actor in a play. It will seem strange. It will not be what your emotions want. You understand that, right?

I understand and I believe it will be difficult acting but if am prepared I can and will do it. I also know from the previous months that everything will get easier and that I will be just fine no matter what the future brings.
The feeling I have right now is more like curiosity of the future, her actions, my capabilities and then off course the end result

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

You will come back here and tell me that's just not "you" and you will have to do it "your way" (whatever that is). But if you can stick it out, you will begin to feel better (according to reports from previous LBH's). It will give you strength to pull back emotionally and really begin enjoying life apart from your W.

I feel this is my way, so hopefully I won�t tell you otherwise later. I have a lot of joys already and also a lot of problems � none of this has anything to do with W. I wish to enjoy my life with her but as long as she is not here I will work on me and enjoy life anyway. I will have the down-moments but I have gotten so much better at handling these. I do feel I have the strength but then again I do not know what the future will bring in to my life.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

While you are enjoying life apart from her, she will be going through a lot of "stuff" of her own. Oh, I'm sure she will present a happy face to everyone. Her pride will carry her along for a while. But she will be watching you and wanting to know what you are doing and why you aren't interested in being chums with her.

I get this totally. It makes so much sense and this alone will keep me on this path! Hopefully it won�t be at the cost of friendships with other people.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Now, I am not telling you to discuss the R with her, when I make the following statement, okay? She will ask you what's going on that you suddenly don't have time for to talk (or whatever). So, in order to keep her being extremely angry, I believe you should tell her in as few sentences as possible, that you always wanted a relationship with her that was set apart from the category called "friends". However, since she made her decision to leave that relationship, you must move forward to make a life without her. Be very careful at this point b/c it could easily slip into a R talk, and you can't let it go there. Tell her you don't want to talk about that now.

OK! I will leave all R-talk even if she initiates.
Is it a goal that she is extremely angry? (I haven�t got a problem with this � just needs clarification)
As I read you, this statement should be on hold until she asks what is going on, right? Always let her initiate since I am happy, content and joyful, right? Change of roles (pursuer/distancer) also, right?
(I just need to understand it since understanding will make it so much easier for me to live and do this!

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

I think she will tell you that she will always want you to be apart of her and the kids' life. That is when you look deep in her eyes and say, "I intend to always be a part of my children's life. However, you and I will not be sharing family times with the kids. That is what separation is. Living seperate lives."

Got you � no problem! Goes on the list as well!

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

She may throw a bunch of teary-eyed emotional junk at you, but remain firm. When she tells you, "Can't we be friends?". You softly tell her no. You wanted to be more than a friend, but she didn't b/c she left. (This keeps the focus on her decision to leave.). Don't let her start with something like, "Well, you always............". Hold up your and in "stop" signal. Tell her, "we aren't going to rehash the past right now. Let's just leave this talk where it is for now.". Then tell her bye and leave, hang up, or whatever. But I think this does not need to be said in an email or TM. It is important that she see your face, or at lest, hear your voice. Do you agree?

Totally and I see the roles shifting if this happens. I also agree that she would very likely state these things � I believe it will be a while � she sticks with her beliefs and she is a proud woman! Also believe the part you posted earlier about her coming at me with guilt (Children mostly)

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

The difficult part for you will be keeping it short. You may want to tell her to not hesitate if she needs to contact you about the girls. (That pushes your point a little deeper.)

I will keep this in mind!
When should I tell her about the children?

She called me twice today but I didn�t answer and since I don�t have VW I don�t know why she called � should I get a VM even though I hate those things?
What if the caller is in fact one of the girls that wishes to talk to me?
Should I call her back tomorrow and just say �Hey, you called � what�s up?�

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

The next time you speak to her over the phone, or see her at the door while exchanging the kids, you always appear happy. Give the kids lots of hugs and kisses. Hold your hand up in a little wave at her and say, "Well, see ya.". Then you leave, with the smile still on your face......as if you are exited to get somewhere.

I will � this will be quite easy since I have done this since BD. I will be more aware doing this when at friends.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Some may call it game playing. I call it knowing how women think! She is seeing you looking good and acting upbeat, and thinking to herself, "have I really lost him?".

They may call it what ever they like to � this is you helping me doing what I want � this is my choice! I should have played a different game long time ago � now is the right time to change the rules!

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

It will take a long time before she is convinced you won't come around when she invites you. You will see various emotions in her. She has to experience the bad part of her decision to break up her family. She thought she could have you on her terms, her time, her calendar date, be her assistant in child care, and a friend to tell her troubles to. It will be a shock to her emotional system when she sees her fantasy plans crumble. After she has been force to do without her cake eating, then she will begin to doubt her decision and began looking more at what she lost as a result of that decision.

And this is where the patience comes in play! I believe I have a lot and since my GAL is working I am in fact enjoying my life and days at the moment. When my business and medical issues hopefully are solved in a good way and I am finished renovating I believe I will have the endurance to stick this out.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

There should not be anything complicated about how you act around her, b/c you won't be around her except a couple of minutes at time, right?

Agreed, and it will be rare! I won�t pick up the girls at her place and the same goes the other way around. We will see eachother sometimes but right now I think it will be 3-4 times a month. I will make these short if possible. We have a parents meeting at the school in September. I would like to attend and so will she. I believe I should seat myself next to her to avoid people thinking I am strange � What�s your opinion on this?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

And if she calls and starts talking about something that does not refer to the kids, then you say, "I don't want to be rude, but I really have to go now". And if she is dumb enough to ask why.........then just give a soft little chuckle at her and say, "Bye W (whatever her name is.). She may get little huffed about it, but I can almost promise you she will be curious, which is another English word for "interested".

Whats a chuckle?
Agree on the rest!
(She has already asked some of these questions about my doings for the last 2-3 weeks � I won�t answer these in the future)

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

There are various stages she has to go through, and it takes a long time. That is why you must not watch her activity on social networking, or read emails about her problems or job, etc. (apart from the kids).

I won�t defriend her for now, but if needed I will � I believe we will have to take the cultural aspect in to consideration if this is to be done.
Should I do more on FB myself � post pictures and small stories?
(IMO � NO! It will come off as false and she will get her updates from friends anyway)

I will need to go in depth with all of this during the rest of this week since her reaction could come from somewhere between tomorrow and never.

Thanks!! I am, because of your advice, in some funny way looking forward towards the future! Not because of possible R but because my path is clear and that gives me peace in the spinning mind

F

Hi,

Sorry to hijack the thread but these posts are proving to be an eye opener for me and am doubting my plan.

Sandi - you gave me some good advice last August/September when I was going through S. I wonder if you have time could you have another look at my sitch as I too seem to be stuck in the 'friend' zone. I did a lot of what you are suggesting initially which served me well. However, I seem to be stuck in the limbo you talk about....albeit my timeline is a bit further on.

Fartiltre - I don't think anyone can add to what Sandi is saying. Good luck.

Sandi,

W just called again - didnt answer but at some point I will have to! This is the third time today.
She will ask why I don't answer her calls - what should I reply to this?

I do not know what she is calling about since she can't leave a message - what to do?

F

F

"She will ask why I don't answer her calls - what should I reply to this?"

Just tell her you were busy. Period. She doesn't need any complicated explanations.

That, Sandi! She always has the words that make sooooo much sense. Really pay attention to what she has to say!

IMO telling her that I am busy will do for a short time but in the long run it will come off as false or telling her "I won't talk to you" - just in different words.

At the same time I still don't know if it is about the children she is calling and that worries me a bit!
Children could be sick, hurt, missing something or likewise. Also I left the childrens clothing at her place this morning (didnt see her!) and perhaps I forgot something important.

I am NOT looking for an excuse to talk with her - I am looking for a reason NOT to call her. I need this for myself to justify to me, that it is ok not to call - this will make it so much easier for me and this will properly happen a lot of times in the future to come.

I could also text her now: "I am busy - is it important?"

...then again I could just let it be and go to bed (10.45PM here!)

F, I feel your pain in how to go this way with the texts. I just don't have an answer as I am not having this in my sitch.
I would think, somewhere in the future you might have to ask your W to simply only call/text if it is an emergency or important about the kids. That way you can relate back to that conversation if it continues. I think you need to at least make her aware you don't want texts or calls for non issues. Again, my opinion. Please wait for what sandi feels is the best way.

"I am NOT looking for an excuse to talk with her - I am looking for a reason NOT to call her."

Why? You're way overthinking this. You have a child together so you can't not ever talk to her. Talk to her when you need to. That's all. Stop acting like you're avoiding her or running away from her. Confront it head on.

If it was an emergency is there another way for her to contact you?
Land line, neighbour?

If not I would find out why she is calling. It could be about the kids, it could be important. I suggest getting VM for a while then hopefully you wouldn't be going through this part right now.

I don't think it will be important but if there is no other avenue for contact if needed then where does that leave you?

Quote:

Got you but what about when she ask about my work, my home, S10, friends or anything else? Do I answer this shortly or do I answer with out saying anything like,

You simply answer with the same word husbands have used for centuries. "Fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine........." She will soon get the hint that you do not intend to discuss your business, work, other family, or personal life with her b/c it is none of her business. You will hear me say that a lot, or until you start remembering that you are not obligated to answer any of her questions that don't affect her children or private property. You will have to train yourself. Then when you R, you will have to retrain yourself.

Quote:

The feeling I have right now is more like curiosity of the future, her actions, my capabilities and then off course the end result

Okay, just as long as you understand that I can't answer any of those for you.

Quote:

I wish to enjoy my life with her but as long as she is not here I will work on me and enjoy life anyway.

That's the spirit! I also hope you have other friends and activity that are not just relatives (especially hers).

Quote:

I will have the down-moments but I have gotten so much better at handling these. I do feel I have the strength but then again I do not know what the future will bring in to my life.

I have witnessed my children go through divorces and close loved one go through losing their S in death. It usually takes getting through that first year of holidays and special anniversaries, birthdays, etc. So, yes, you will experience those down days, but realize it is normal and don't start questioning yourself and thinking it is taking too long.

I really want to encourage you to enjoy life and not spend most of it on wondering about the future. You could miss some wonderful friendships, and maybe relationships, wondering what she may do in the future. I have read so many posts from LBH's who say, "If I only knew she would come back, I could wait for however long it took." I compare that with guys wanting to know a female's answer before he asks the question. You men!

Quote:

I get this totally. It makes so much sense and this alone will keep me on this path! Hopefully it won�t be at the cost of friendships with other people.

Here's what I see with men. They can get away with not answering anything they don't want to! Other men don't get mad, and it doesn't matter if the women do. But a woman asking another woman and her not tell her everything she wants to know? Forget it!

If they are a true friend, you will be able to tell them what I suggested in previous post and they will not be offended. If they are "her friends" or "her relatives" then they might not like your answer, but they shouldn't be asking, now should they? Stop feeling like you owe an answer to people who asks you questions. I know your type! B/c I am much the same type as you, but I have learned....and so can you.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Now, I am not telling you to discuss the R with her, when I make the following statement, okay? She will ask you what's going on that you suddenly don't have time for to talk (or whatever). So, in order to keep her being extremely angry, I believe you should tell her in as few sentences as possible, that you always wanted a relationship with her that was set apart from the category called "friends". However, since she made her decision to leave that relationship, you must move forward to make a life without her. Be very careful at this point b/c it could easily slip into a R talk, and you can't let it go there. Tell her you don't want to talk about that now.

OK! I will leave all R-talk even if she initiates.
Is it a goal that she is extremely angry? (I haven�t got a problem with this � just needs clarification)

A goal? No, it's not a "goal". But I want you to be prepared to see her get angry. If she doesn't, then I will wonder if she is a real female.......or if you aren't doing it right.

I know you said she's nice, but I think even if she doesn't get angry at you in person, she'll be mad in private. She thinks she still has the "right" to ask you these questions, and more importantly, she expects you to talk, talk, talk.

Quote:

As I read you, this statement should be on hold until she asks what is going on, right? Always let her initiate since I am happy, content and joyful, right? Change of roles (pursuer/distancer) also, right?

Yes, you do not volunteer to tell her if she doesn't care enough to ask. But, I'm betting she will. Your role has changed to distancer......absolutely.

Quote:

I also agree that she would very likely state these things � I believe it will be a while � she sticks with her beliefs and she is a proud woman! Also believe the part you posted earlier about her coming at me with guilt (Children mostly)

I don't think they come much more proud than I am. It makes it harder, too. It's tough to admit you've made a terrible mistake. And, remember, she will be in a very new role herself. She doesn't even know it yet.

I have seen both sides of the fence use their children as excuses, or to guilt. As long as you realize that is what she's doing, she won't have the power to use them for as a tool with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
The difficult part for you will be keeping it short. You may want to tell her to not hesitate if she needs to contact you about the girls. (That pushes your point a little deeper.)

I will keep this in mind!
When should I tell her about the children?

When she starts whining about thinking the two of you could remain friends and you are telling her why you can't be just a friend. I think she will say something about always wanting you to be a part of her life......or her and the children's lives. If she mentions the children, that is when you tell her.

Quote:

We have a parents meeting at the school in September. I would like to attend and so will she. I believe I should seat myself next to her to avoid people thinking I am strange � What�s your opinion on this?

Sure, of course.

Quote:

Whats a chuckle?

Another word for laugh. In that particular case, I was thinking of a small or low little laugh. Not the kind that sounds as if you are laughing "at" her, but as if you think what she said is a little amusing. As if you know what she's doing.

Quote:

I won�t defriend her for now, but if needed I will � I believe we will have to take the cultural aspect in to consideration if this is to be done.

Okay, well if it would be cultural offensive....you would know best on that part.

Sandi,

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Centuries

I didn�t know it was inheritance

I can do fine!
I get the not obligated but remember that I am still that kind of person that wants to be sure � I need the things sorted totally out in my head but I will (almost) promise you that when I get there I will do the things (almost

)flawless. (Big words from a little man! � I know!)
I love the training so just bring it on and (hopefully) we will have to turn it all around somewhere in the future!

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Okay, just as long as you understand that I can't answer any of those for you.

How come?

I get you and didnt expect any answer. Just stated it to let you know what/who you are dealing with!

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

That's the spirit! I also hope you have other friends and activity that are not just relatives (especially hers).

I have 15 guys at my home in three weeks for a barbecue, beers and claytargetshooting in the backyard. Her cousin is the only relative and she talks to 2-3 of the others. I have only 3-4 dear friends and I do not feel like having more. The rest is a bit more distant and then I have invited 3 new guys that I don�t know so well � This is all part of my GAL! I believe I will do good in this area and the above is just an example.

I will wait until something better arises in the horizon! I won�t look for it at the moment but sometimes the sunset just hits you in the face! I want W back for me, her and the children but I won�t fall into the trap off letting something possibly good pass by because something else MIGHT happen.

I started out DBing with one goal � getting W back! Now I have several and the biggest one is getting me back! If I can have W back I would still like to for now but as my shrink stated at last session �I am not even sure you want her if you get the chance�. I am not there � I am working this for me and the family but only to some extent. Won�t waste the rest of my life hoping � that would be even more awful than D!

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Stop feeling like you owe an answer to people who asks you questions. I know your type! B/c I am much the same type as you, but I have learned....and so can you.

And I will! This will be a hard lesson but I am ready for it. It gives me a little peace knowing you have been through that as well.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

A goal? No, it's not a "goal". But I want you to be prepared to see her get angry. If she doesn't, then I will wonder if she is a real female.......or if you aren't doing it right

I will bet a month�s wager on her spewing big time! � I have learned to handle her when she does! I simply leave. It has worked fine for me for the last 2� month or so.

AND THEN:
What about her callings today � should I do something or just wait until she calls again?
When should I pick up?
What should I answer when she ask why I haven�t answered?
Should I get the VM as T suggests � I really hate them, but if needed I will get one!!! (IMHO she will just leave a message telling me to call her and then I am in the same place)

She called me twice in a row this afternoon at my cell and then 1015PM at the landline (no cellcoverage at my home). Haven�t got VM but since she didn�t text I don�t believe it is that important.

Sandi, I am off to bed � it�s past midnight and I have a rough day waiting. Thanks again � I hope to wake up to some clarification from you about her callings.

F

Don't make this too complicated, F. She doesn't know you are starting on a different plan. When in doubt about your kids, check back to see if they are okay.

Why can she not leave a message? If it were an emergency, would she text you to notify? I do believe this is a good time to leave some type of instructions to alert you by some specific means when or if it is very important and has to do with your,children. You can't just ignore an attempted call from her when you have no idea about the kids.

Whenever a LBS has to step back from the WAS, always have in place some type of plan (if nothing else, a code word) for her to use if one of the kids are sick, hurt, etc.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Don't make this too complicated, F. She doesn't know you are starting on a different plan. When in doubt about your kids, check back to see if they are okay.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

I do believe this is a good time to leave some type of instructions to alert you by some specific means when or if it is very important and has to do with your,children. You can't just ignore an attempted call from her when you have no idea about the kids.

Well, Sandi � That how I work! I am all yours and if you say jump � I jump! I might ask why!
So when I tell you, I will follow you, and you tell me not to call and not to answer � then I don�t! If I am in doubt I will rather wait doing something until I get your advice!
I have a tendency of complicating things but I was only trying to follow your advice.

I got this for the future! I am learning

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Why can she not leave a message?

I haven�t got voicemail � that�s why! I hate these things! People leaving a message, telling me to call them back. I have to listen through a lot of these and 1� year ago it simply got too much so I cancelled VM and I have been happy about this decision ever since.
Should I get one?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

If it were an emergency, would she text you to notify?

She did last time (a week ago when D4 got stung by a wasp on the tongue) and I believe she would again

I will call W tomorrow morning and state that today has been crazy and then tell her to always text me if something urgent.
Agree?

F

"What about her callings today � should I do something or just wait until she calls again?
When should I pick up?
What should I answer when she ask why I haven�t answered?
Should I get the VM as T suggests � I really hate them, but if needed I will get one!!! (IMHO she will just leave a message telling me to call her and then I am in the same place)"

You're way overthinking things. I guess you didn't read my post. Get VM for emergencies. Again, you share children together. THEY should be your priority.

So, if I understand correctly, she can text you anywhere, anytime? Then surely she would let you know when it was one of the kids sick or hurt.

Sometimes I try to say too much in one post. And I am very bad at assuming someone knows. So always ask if there is any doubt....or if my mind gets too fast,for my fingers to keep,up and I leave something out.

Let me go back to your W calling,several times today. You,don't have to ignore her calls. Since you have two little children, there is always a certain risk (which we have already discussed). But the point is to ask her if anything is wrong, find out the facts, and if all she wanted to do was chat........then you know what to do, right?

I also meant to refer to something T1000 said earlier about maybe him (or anyone) not posting so as not to add confusion. I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not suggesting anyone stop! This is a support forum and I would not tell somebody else not to post on your thread. But I do want to point out to any newcomers who may come across your thread to read my advice for you........this does not apply to everyone in every stitch. If newcomers thought it was for them as well, then it could confuse them. They read this thread and jump over and read some other threads, thinking it apples to them. There is advice that pretty much fits most. However, when I arrived here, I didn't see anything for the WAW. It seemed to be advice for the LBS. DBing is geared toward the one wanting to save the M. ( I used myself as an example of people's stitch varying and needing individual tweaking). Is that all clear as mud?

.

Sandi,

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

So, if I understand correctly, she can text you anywhere, anytime?

Yes, almost! But then again: I am not a guy carrying my cell with me all the time! I don't bring my cell hunting, fishing, running in the forrest or likewise. I like the freedom it makes me feel to put it in a drawer sometimes and simply go off line.
I have given this children-situation a lot of thoughts today and I am possibly coming out as very cold right now, but when we lived together I wasn�t avalilable all the time and neither was she. We trusted each other with the children and their safety and wellbeing. I believe this trust should continue to be there. I trust her with my children and the other way around. I do not have to be available all the time and neither does she. I don�t need to answer her every call just because it could be something about the children�.why should this change just because of D?
Am I making sense?

I called her this morning. D6 answered and I talked to her about her schoolday. Then D4 came on and talked and at last W. She had some practical stuff about getting some things here on Friday. I told her that it will be alright and that I won�t be here. This was possibly a mistake since I would not let a friendly neighbor go into my house without me being here � should I correct this and tell her to come at another time?
She mentioned that I owe her some money and I told her that I am not sure this is the case but I will have to go through the expenses for the last months.
That was it! I ended the convo as quickly as possible.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

So always ask if there is any doubt....or if my mind gets too fast,for my fingers to keep,up and I leave something out.

I will ask! I have been somewhat confused about answering or not answering her calls.
I forgot to tell her to text me in the future when I talked to her this morning but I will get this done. I will simply state that if anything is wrong with children and I am not able to answer her calls she should always send me a text and that I will do the same the other way around.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

But the point is to ask her if anything is wrong, find out the facts, and if all she wanted to do was chat........then you know what to do, right?

Yes, end the call! � As always!

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Is that all clear as mud?

I believe I get you and hopefully everybody else does as well.
IMO this wouldn�t have been a good path from day one while living together. It might work now or it might not, but if had done this at day one it would have been more off the same, confirming her decision and a lot of other things that would have worsened my sit � again only my opinion.

Sandi, I am getting closer to understanding what I have to do or in fact what I am already doing! I am still working through all of your advices and making notes for me. When I am done I will post them here and hopefully you will go through them and advise me from there on.

F

Last days have been crazy!

Sandi is keeping my head spinning and I am trying to implement all of the advice I have been given by her and others in the last days. At the same time being single father is a mouthful but I am doing just fine. I still feel all good but I am tired 24/7. I need to finish some of my projects or simply just realize that I can�t do it all at one time.

Tomorrow S10 leaves and I will have a week by myself. It has been lovely having the children but I am in fact looking forward to doing things for me the next week. GAL is coming off good and the coming weekends are fully booked with new people, old friends, usual stuff and new things to do. I often look back on the advice about GAL given to me by 25mlc � It makes so much sense now that I am doing it.

W is still on my mind at least a hundred times a day but sadness is quite rare now. I also find myself not spending as much time in here as I did earlier on. I believe I was at first looking for a magic wand, then answers, then I looked for hope and now I am looking for me. I believe this must be an up and therefore a down is properly right around the corner as always.
Thanks for all the support and advice you all have given me the last days!

Originally Posted By: HWA

Doing good F. Keep it up, keep asking questions.

Oh, I will but right now I am having a hard time keeping up to Sandi�s speed � she has more years to carry than me but it certainly doesn�t show right now. It is not asking the questions that will be giving me problems � it is understanding and implementing the answers that needs work and time � so perhaps I should slow down a little for my own sake.

Originally Posted By: Back56

At any rate, thank you again for this help, and F, I am right there with you, giving this whole polite, distantly friendly, thing with my ex, a go.

Back56, I don�t know your sit but if you can use some off this then good but be sure to read what Sandi wrote about going down this path � it is in her opinion not for everyone. I am still new to all this but still I get Sandi when she writes this.

Originally Posted By: Suckerpunch

Really pay attention to what she has to say!

Trust me when I say I am doing exactly that!

Originally Posted By: T1000

The way I tied to look at it was like asking for directions. The person your asking is a stranger and you would be generally pleasant, polite and nice. You wouldn't talk to them about their feelings and validate them and you wouldn't agree to pay their car bill or go to a concert with them.
If they got knocked over by a cyclist you would help them up, if they had toothache you wouldn't take them to the dentist.

T, this is good stuff and I thank you! It made the whole picture of the neighbor so much clearer to me and I believe I got it now and that�s the first time! I thought I was doing this but I have been to kind and to nice. I am not sure this is a negative since we lived together but I am glad that I now understand.

Originally Posted By: T1000

I don't think it will be important but if there is no other avenue for contact if needed then where does that leave you?

I liked this one as well, T � made me think! I just posted about this and my conclusion is partly due to this sentence � thanks!

Originally Posted By: MrBond

Just tell her you were busy. Period. She doesn't need any complicated explanations.

Originally Posted By: MrBond

Why? You're way overthinking this. You have a child together so you can't not ever talk to her. Talk to her when you need to. That's all. Stop acting like you're avoiding her or running away from her. Confront it head on.

Originally Posted By: MrBond

You're way overthinking things. I guess you didn't read my post. Get VM for emergencies. Again, you share children together. THEY should be your priority.

Thanks, Bond! I didn�t get your first post until later and unfortunately I think I wouldn�t have comprehended it at that time. I feel like I have been acting for the last five months following the rules, holding back my thoughts, working my 180s and so on � now (today) I am starting to understand this new path and how much it simply matches what I would like to do right now. As I understood Sandi at first I was supposed not to answer calls � I get the picture much better now. Children are my priority and they will stay that way but I won�t get the VM. I simply can�t see it solving anything that a text can�t handle.
You confused me yesterday but that was entirely me not understanding the way I am heading so thank you for trying to adjust me!

And then off course you Sandi2 � words don�t cover my gratitude! You simply rock! Thanks a million!

F

Quote:

I called her this morning. D6 answered and I talked to her about her schoolday. Then D4 came on and talked and at last W. She had some practical stuff about getting some things here on Friday. I told her that it will be alright and that I won�t be here. This was possibly a mistake since I would not let a friendly neighbor go into my house without me being here � should I correct this and tell her to come at another time?

No, don't go back and change it.

When we use the example of a "friendly neighbor" we are trying to paint a picture of a person you would see as being polite, throwing up a hand to wave when they see you out in the yard. We were trying to give you something you could have to compare your level of friendliness. But as with anything we suggest about doing, do NOT carry to extremes. You have to use your own good judgement in these matters b/c you know her and we don't. It is easy for me to tell you what to do, but it is your life, not mine.

You are being what I see as normal in most of the men here. I loved how you summarized what you were looking for when you first came, and what you are trying to find now. Sometimes I feel like I am shaking a new LBH so he,will really listen to what is being said. But he seldom is ready to "do" what is advised. Like you said about how you are finally understanding why 25 yrs emphasized GAL. Most newly LBS's don't want to get out and GAL........nor do they truly believe it will make a difference. Once they finally begin to do it, then they can see it has a positive effect.

I like what you said about how you would deal with the calls and the TM, etc. I especially liked the way you said she was not always available for your calls when living together. I liked how you trust each other to do what is necessary for the kids. That is one of those areas where you used your own good judgement b/c you knew better than we did.

As I said before, just don't go to such extremes you act goofy.

Your biggest problem was being too much of a "nice guy" you were very emotionally attached. She will notice there's been a change!

Sandi,

9 AM here and W just called!

I will try to give you a picture of the convo but I am shaking at the moment! It is hard remembering all the details and specifics but I hope you can do with this

She started of by asking if I was busy. I didn�t answer but asked what was up. Then she stated that she had some practical�s we needed to discuss.

Then she told me something about D6 getting a new book at school already and then some about her�.she just babbled.
(At this point my head started working because I was in doubt if babbling about the children should be stopped or not. Since I like to know what goes on in their lives I just listened and made these small listening-sounds like oh, yes, hmmm and so on)

Then she shifted towards D4 being sad and asking her why her and I can�t live together. She had told D4 that we weren�t very good at living together. I left this uncommented. She talked a little about this and also about D6 not talking about this but listening a lot.
Then shifted towards D4 asking her if I could join them for dinner and she invited me. I left it unanswered but she kept on asking so I told her that I didn�t feel like doing this.

She asked why several times and I kept stating that she made a decision trying to put the decision on her.
I told her that I don�t feel like being friends but I will always be friendly (exact words)

She came on to me about the children�s feelings and I told her that I will always be their loving father and she will always be their loving mother and that we will co-parent the best we can, but this doesn�t mean that we have to be friends or eat dinner together. (I do not remember my exact words but this is close)

She stated that she thought we were supposed to be flexible and I answered that I will always be flexible around the children.

She stated that she thought we would be friends and I told her that I didn�t feel like and that I don�t want to pull the children through another breakup when one of us meets OM or OW. She asked me why this would mean a breakup. I told her that this is how things go normally. She wanted to discuss this further and I believe I stated something like �Well, that how I look at it�

She told me that then she has been lying to the children stating that she and I will be friends and she asked me what to do about this. I told her that she can tell them the truth if she don�t feel like lying.

At some point she gave up and told me �OK � lets go back to the practical�s. D6 has got an invitation to a birthday-party� I got my calendar and put it in and asked her if there where anything else, more practicals.
Then she laughed (as me being ridiculous) � I asked her why she laughed and she stated: Ohh this is just beautiful!! Then I told her to be nice and speak nice or I would hang up the phone.
She was angry at this point in the convo.

She continued in a soft and nice voice from there on!

She asked if we couldn�t talk when shifting place and I told that off course we can and we should if something special happened.

I stated several times that I don�t feel like being friends and that this is her decision.
At some point she stated that she knew I felt like this way. At another point she stated that she thought we would be friends.

Sandi, I am sorry that I can�t explain this better! I was concentrating so much on getting the words right, keeping a soft and pleasant voice and with my feelings on the outside at the same time it is hard remembering the details.
I believe the above is quite accurate but am in doubt about the order and the exact wording.
I didn�t raise my voice once.

I wasn�t prepared well enough and could have done better in choosing my words and phrases. I do believe I did all right but It could have been better. I wish she would have waited a week coming on to me with this then I would have been so much better prepared.

She is going down the track we have discussed and I believe she will be there for some time. She wants to eat the family cake and she has until now believed that this would be possible. IMHO she will try again and next time I will be better prepared. I won�t bring up this subject � but please tell me if I forgot something so my preparation for the next time can be better.

When I am done going through the boundaries, values and rules I hope we can talk more about what to expect. I know I shouldn�t have expectations but I believe you get my drift � I just want to feel prepared for anything that might happen.
I am trying to look at me as WAH and her as LBW now � this gives me a picture of what to expect. Only problem is that all I have read from LBW is from women that have read DB and she hasn�t . Do you understand me?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Sometimes I feel like I am shaking a new LBH so he,will really listen to what is being said. But he seldom is ready to "do" what is advised.

IMO you can shake the earth and it won�t change the LBH. We have to realize this ourselves and only time help us do that�.but your shaking will possible make us realize what to do when we are out of our own fog. Your words did that for me and if you haven�t posted initially when I came here I would have been in doubt/fog for a longer time.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

Your biggest problem was being too much of a "nice guy" you were very emotionally attached. She will notice there's been a change!

I believe she did this morning.

Took me an hour writing this and I am back to feeling good!

I look forward to your comments on this

F

By the way - the convo lasted around 10 minutes or so.

F

Well done F, I can only imagine how hard that must have been to say and act that way.

HWA,

Thanks! The rough part of this one was getting it done right. I feel I could have done so much better in a week and that W took me by surprise.
In fact I feel rather good about doing it but off course my head is spinning now. How did I do? What is she thinking right now? Did I forget something?...and so on - lots of questions and no answers!

This LRT feels so much better than all the friendly business I have been doing for the last five months. I know the path ahead will be rough but right now I just enjoy feeling up.

F

"She started of by asking if I was busy. I didn�t answer but asked what was up. Then she stated that she had some practical�s we needed to discuss."

You answered that very well.

"Then she told me something about D6 getting a new book at school already and then some about her�.she just babbled.
(At this point my head started working because I was in doubt if babbling about the children should be stopped or not. Since I like to know what goes on in their lives I just listened and made these small listening-sounds like oh, yes, hmmm and so on)"

I understand, you are interested in their daily lives. You may need to think of a tactful way to have W stop her babbling and get on with practicals. Like you said, she will do this again. One problem LBH's have is not being prepared with what to say. You need to think of possible things she might surprise you with in the upcoming months, and know ahead how you will handle it. Practice what you will say, if it will help you remember and be able to sound confident.

"Then she shifted towards D4 being sad and asking her why her and I can�t live together. She had told D4 that we weren�t very good at living together. I left this uncommented. She talked a little about this and also about D6 not talking about this but listening a lot.
Then shifted towards D4 asking her if I could join them for dinner and she invited me. I left it unanswered but she kept on asking so I told her that I didn�t feel like doing this."

You handled it well. But when you say, "I don't feel like doing this" or "I don't feel like being friends"........it sounds as if you are acting as if your feelings are hurt and you are reacting. You need to direct it back to her decision. Don't take responsibility for D4's sadness. Yes, you co-parent, but she has to deal with certain things as a single parent b/c she chose to take the children and leave their home. She thinks you will come to her rescue to help her deal with the sad outcome (having to explain to her girls why she doesn't live with daddy any longer). I strongly feel that the parent who made the decision to break up the family should face the unpleasant ordeal of answering questions the little ones ask them.

You were very good not to jump in with a bunch of comfort words for her. I don't believe she should be validated b/c she needs to see this is a result of her choices and you will not make her feel better about something you did not want. See what I mean? I would speak softly and say, "But this is what you wanted. Surely you knew you would have to deal with these issues."

She may storm off, saying something like, "I should have known I could not count on you to be there when I need you!". (or something similar). Be prepared for it and don't react. Say good-bye and let her have her pity party. She thought she could leave you and still have all the benefits of the R. She is not going to like when she finds out it does not work that way.

Good job.

P.S. You will have your part in dealing with the kids issues when they are at your house. But she will probably have the most, as she should. Don't take her guilt or responsibility away from her.

I think you did well especially considering it was the first time you had to wear your LRT hat in a conversation.

These things are hard to write on the board. A couple of minutes conversation can takes ages to remember and write it on here and get it somewhere understandable to a 3rd party.

She wanted cake and you wouldn't give her any.
You managed to stay strong, you got her to change her angry tone and probably got her mind churning.

You will only get better at this.

LRT does feel better than all that friendly business. Makes you feel much stronger.

Imo you had a successful conversation where you positioned yourself in a healthier place.

Proud of you.

Don't consume your mind wondering what she is thinking or feeling. She will not like what she hears from you. She may accuse you of not being there for "them" (which will really mean "her"). Expect it. Don't let it upset you when it happens.

Remember, she will have the anger before she will deal with her choices like a grow up. She will want to aim it all back at you.

All of this has to happen in order for her to get to the place of looking differently at her choices.

Quote:

She wanted cake and you wouldn't give her any.

I like it.

I meant I liked what T said.

Sandi,

Thanks for your post and words. I am glad that you think I did all right.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

I understand, you are interested in their daily lives. You may need to think of a tactful way to have W stop her babbling and get on with practicals. Like you said, she will do this again. One problem LBH's have is not being prepared with what to say. You need to think of possible things she might surprise you with in the upcoming months, and know ahead how you will handle it. Practice what you will say, if it will help you remember and be able to sound confident.

This caught me by surprise � not that she did start talking about all of this but that I suddenly thought off this talking as babbling. It hit me quite quickly when she started but since I wasn�t prepared my answer didn�t come out that strong.

I guess next time I will just go with:
I am in the middle of something � can we do this at another time? �and then move on to practical�s

I do hope you have a picture of me being a LBH that wants to be prepared. I am rehearsing and practicing my sentences in my mind and out loud. I want to look back at this in the future and be able to tell myself that I did my best so off course I practice. Problem is that I am not sure what is going to happen and that makes practicing somewhat hard.
I will do the thinking � trust me

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

But when you say, "I don't feel like doing this" or "I don't feel like being friends"........it sounds as if you are acting as if your feelings are hurt and you are reacting. You need to direct it back to her decision. Don't take responsibility for D4's sadness.

I got you!!
Should I go with something like �I am sorry to hear that but this is the consequences of your decision� or �I am sorry that D4 is hurting but that�s what�s expected when somebody breaks up a M�
Just writing this makes me feel bad and I can almost hear and see her going ballistic on a sentence like this.
I won�t have any problems saying this if you believe this is the way.

Do you want me to put the blame on her every time something like this comes up? �off course only when talking to her � not children and friends, right? (I can�t do children�s but friends perhaps!)

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

I strongly feel that the parent who made the decision to break up the family should face the unpleasant ordeal of answering questions the little ones ask them.

Me too but so far I have taken my part! I won�t do this anymore. I know she is telling the children that we split up because we wasn�t good together and because she wanted to live in the city. (Makes me puke!) She can go with this but should I at some point tell her that if she at any point turns blame towards me I will tell the children what happened. I will post boundaries soon and you will see this in the list.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

You were very good not to jump in with a bunch of comfort words for her. I don't believe she should be validated b/c she needs to see this is a result of her choices and you will not make her feel better about something you did not want. See what I mean? I would speak softly and say, "But this is what you wanted. Surely you knew you would have to deal with these issues."

Thanks!! I got you again - It feels a lot easier not validating than validating! I will still practice the validating on children and friends and hopefully one day I will have to use it talking to W.
Do you want me to assign the blame towards her every time a convo like this takes place?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

She may storm off, saying something like, "I should have known I could not count on you to be there when I need you!". (or something similar). Be prepared for it and don't react. Say good-bye and let her have her pity party. She thought she could leave you and still have all the benefits of the R. She is not going to like when she finds out it does not work that way.

I agree � she will! My only reaction towards her when this happens will be to tell her to speak nicely or not speak at all�.in this regard I will be prepared! She will properly take her reactions to new heights and that might take me by surprise at some point in all of this.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

You will have your part in dealing with the kids issues when they are at your house. But she will probably have the most, as she should. Don't take her guilt or responsibility away from her.

I wont but neither will I state anything but �We are not together anymore and thats why mummy isnt living here anymore� to the children! I will not make her look bad in their eyes. If she at some point starts blaming me in front of them I will tell her to stop or I will tell children what really happened.
I can deal with the children�or at least I feel that way right now. I fear that D6 is holding so much back at the moment and that she at some point will burst.

F

Originally Posted By: T1000

Imo you had a successful conversation where you positioned yourself in a healthier place.
Proud of you.

Thanks T � that really makes me feel good coming from you!!

Originally Posted By: T1000

I think you did well especially considering it was the first time you had to wear your LRT hat in a conversation.

Thanks again! I hope I will do better in the future � I need to get the goals on these convos straight!

Originally Posted By: T1000

These things are hard to write on the board. A couple of minutes conversation can takes ages to remember and write it on here and get it somewhere understandable to a 3rd party.

It�s almost impossible! I will look for an app that can record my convos on the cell � I have a recorder on the landline. I would simply love to go over the convo once again and thereby be able to post it better and also make my own evaluation better.

Originally Posted By: T1000

She wanted cake and you wouldn't give her any.
You managed to stay strong, you got her to change her angry tone and probably got her mind churning.
You will only get better at this.
LRT does feel better than all that friendly business. Makes you feel much stronger.

Following your sit was a tremendous help to me today! I feel like me and I know what and why I am doing what I am. I don�t feel like acting anymore and I have felt this way for so long.
And yes, I feel strong right now but also in some way fearfull of her perception, thinking and reaction. I remember you having this feeling as well and also I remember that your sit moved when you skipped the fear and stayed strong. Hopefully I have learned this from you and will be able to look my fear straight in the eyes and tell it to get lost!

Thanks for the comforting words and your support!

F

Sandi,

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

I won�t think about it anymore! I will go back to focus on me and GAL � her thoughts are hers!

When (not if

) this happens should I just go with the blame-assigning:

This is not what I wanted�.
This was your decision and not mine
You split us up � not me
I am there for them always � you are the one that left and broke up the family

I hope I will be able to keep the pleasant and calm voice WHEN this happens � that will properly be my biggest issue. She can really pi$$ me off and get me upset � but I will practice these sentences if you believe they are the right ones.

F

Sandi,

I recieved a text from W asking about money 3 hours ago.

I posted this yesterday after I called her:

Originally Posted By: FarTilTre

She mentioned that I owe her some money and I told her that I am not sure this is the case but I will have to go through the expenses for the last months.

The text just goes "Hey. Did you transfer the money..? W"

Two things hits me.
1. I don't believe she has put her name in a text for a very long time.
2. Hey with a Y is very different here than "Hej" (meaning "Hi") - she normally uses this when things are normal.

She is either low on money or looking for a reaction.

I have made a transfer but not the full amount she asked for since I still belive she owes me money and at the same time I told her yesterday that I will look into this.

I will let this be for now and the next time she calls I will ask her to email me her expences for the last five months. When all of this started we agreed that we would share living expences like rent, childcare and so on - I have payed the majority but several times stated that we will have to go over these at some point.

Do you agree on the doing nothing?

F

Quote:

Well, that's a little too plain. I would probably go ballistic, also, if I was told those words. What I had in mind was something a little softer, but still gave the message. That's why I suggested speaking with a soft voice when you say it. An example would be...."Yes, it must be very difficult dealing with the children's sadness, but (W's name), you surely thought about all this when you were making the decision to leave the M." That may still sting to hear you say it, but whenever you start throwing around the words "consequences of your decision/actions" to anyone......teenagers, WAS's, singles, or old people.

Quote:

Should I go with something like �I am sorry to hear that but this is the consequences of your decision� or �I am sorry that D4 is hurting but that�s what�s expected when somebody breaks up a M�

I agree with Sandi that this is too harsh and almost sounds like retribution, not moving on and honesty. Use what Sandi said, you can always add other similar things so you don't say the same line over and over. "I know, it is hard on all of us. Unfortunately you and I knew it would be when you made this decision but the girls didn't really get it until after you moved"

Quote:

"Then she told me something about D6 getting a new book at school already and then some about her�.she just babbled.
(At this point my head started working because I was in doubt if babbling about the children should be stopped or not. Since I like to know what goes on in their lives I just listened and made these small listening-sounds like oh, yes, hmmm and so on)"

F, didn't you skype/facetime/whatever/video chat you use with you D's a week or so ago? You and your w have the children for long stretches of time, which means long stretches of time with the other parent not seeing them. In their best of interest, and also helping out your best interest of not having too much conversation with W, I suggest setting up regular times to skype with them. Next time W launches into this, or even beforehand, tell her you want to be able to keep up with the girls and hear from them the important things going on in their lives when they are with her. Let her know you want to skype every other night, every two nights, whatever and let her know you will have them available to do the same with her when they are at your house. Their is no reason not to "see" your girls for 9 days with todays technology and then your W will need to invent a new reason to call you!

Quote:

She stated that she thought we would be friends and I told her that I didn�t feel like and that I don�t want to pull the children through another breakup when one of us meets OM or OW. She asked me why this would mean a breakup. I told her that this is how things go normally. She wanted to discuss this further and I believe I stated something like �Well, that how I look at it�

Again, I agree w/S that this isn't the best way to frame this. Maybe "I know we need to be friendly for the children, and there is no reason not to be. However, I feel that being friendly and hanging out together as friends are different things." Or something like that..

Quote:

"Then she shifted towards D4 being sad and asking her why her and I can�t live together. She had told D4 that we weren�t very good at living together. I left this uncommented. She talked a little about this and also about D6 not talking about this but listening a lot."

I am glad you didn't comment on this. I know the feeling when you first split of wanting the other person to stand up and admit what they did. I felt this way when my ex and I split up, that the kids should know it was his fault. (We only had one D together but I say kids because I raised his 2 children for 5 years w/o their mom in the picture). The reality is that whose fault is should not be passed on to the children. It does nothing for them to know "mom" broke up the M. My ex had an A while I was pregnant but my D still does not know this and I will never tell her. When she asks why we aren't together I just say "unfortunately things didn't work it. I am sorry for you that they didn't but we did try" No ,we didn't try because he didn't want to but how will it help my D to know that?

Quote:

Then shifted towards D4 asking her if I could join them for dinner and she invited me. I left it unanswered but she kept on asking so I told her that I didn�t feel like doing this."

Instead of saying I don't feel like it, which means she will keep asking, let her know this is your final decision. "W, I have thought a lot about us having dinners together as a family. I know we agreed that we would so I have to apologize to you because I have realized that it isn't something I want to do. You have chosen to move on and I don't see how this will help the girls in the long run. Us being friendly when we see each other will help the girls but dinner, I don't think that will help"

Sandi,

W also mailed me this evening about D6s girlscouting.

Hey

D6 only got one program so I scanned it and here it is :-)
She will get her scout-shirt next time. That�s quite big, so see if you can make it.

Otherwise you will have to call the leaders and tell she wont make it. Their number is on the note.

Have a nice evening
W

I will reply to this email:

Hi
Thanks for sms and e-mail.
I have transferred $ to you and you should have them tomorrow. I would like for you to send me your expences from the last months so we can get the financials settled. If you do so I will do the numbers and mail them to you.

Then something about some things she has taken with her that belongs to me and that I would like to have returned next time we shift
And just my name at the bottom.

I am getting there but still somewhat confused about this blame-assigning I asked you � should I do this?

F

I am still working me and my new path and would really like some opinions on this. I know you can�t judge my boundaries and values since those are mine, but you can judge and add to the rules. (Defining boundaries and values have been extremely difficult to me � I thought I was quite clear on those but putting them on paper is tough�I would recommend that everybody try doing this.)
At the same time you can hopefully tell me if this makes any sense, if I am missing something, need to add something, got something wrong�.anything!
ANY THOUGHTS?

(Nothing is prioritized or finished - properly and hopefully it never will be)

BOUNDARIES
I won�t take the blame for the decision to D in front of anybody.
I won�t be met with untruthful stories about our M and BD from anybody.
I won�t pay anything but the child support unless commanded by the law
I won�t accept W (and others) not behaving and speaking nicely to me
I won�t do anything that I believe will hurt my children � them seen as a total.

VALUES
HONESTY, TRUTHFULNESS AND CONFIDENTIALITY
I want my life lived truthful so I won�t accept people lying to me and I won�t lie to them
I will let things be untold or state that I won�t talk about certain issues rather than lie to people
People can confide with me and trust me to keep their secrets. This goes for children as well.
If I experience confidentiality broken I won�t trust in people again.

AMBITION AND DEVELOPMENT
I will be ambitious on behalf of every aspect of my own and my children�s life.
I wan�t us all to develop daily.
I want to learn and I want to change myself according to my new gained knowledge and experience.
I will to some extent look at the rest of my life as a project and apply the tools I use at work when I do project management.
I will change me for me and my children. We solely judge the present me but I will take advice and words from others into consideration when I judge myself.

HAPPINESS, JOY AND LOVE
I want happy people and close friends in my life. I want to laugh, enjoy and live a good life full. I will try to leave places or situations, that makes me unhappy and I will seek up situations that gives me the opposite feeling.
I want love in my life and I will judge the people around me. If I feel myself being indifferent towards them or the other way around I will either address this or simply get them out of my life.
I will work my financials so I can afford doing the things I want to do and life I want to live.

RULES TO FOLLOW
CHILDREN:
When I have the children at weekends I will do at least one special thing outside the house with them

I will do anything for my children as long as the hurt this afflicts on the others is not too big. I am the only one that I trust in measuring this but I will listen to advice from W and other people.

I will help the children making her a birthday present, but I won�t spend money. This is for the children and not for W.

I will show them love, caring and protection every time I see them.

WIFE:
I won�t help her finding happiness by helping her out or giving her advice - out of what I would have done for a stranger.

I won't hurt her intentionally in anyway that I can't justify as me trying to save M or do good for me or children.

I won�t share my life with her but I will share the children�s life with her by giving her information when special occasion occurs. I will initiate this.

I will be kind, pleasant and a little upbeat at all times.

I will do short breakfast on birthdays and short meet up at Christmas but only with her and Children.

I will enter her house but I won�t seat myself in her house or garden unless birthday, Christmas or if she at some point initiates R-talk.

I don�t initiate contact unless special occasion or urgent matters for kids.

I won�t offer her coffee, a seat or anything but a glass of water if she asks when she is at my house.

I won�t tell her what is going on in my life and if she asks directly I will answer shortly without any details.

I won�t initiate hugs or touching

AROUND OTHER PEOPLE
I will (if asked) tell people that she chose to leave me and that in order for me to get a hold of my life, I can�t have her in it as a friend, but that I cherish her motherhood and caring for the children.

ME:
I will keep the focus on me and the children and leave W being her.
I will GAL my a$$ off
I will keep working and evaluating my 180s

Every time I feel myself thinking that it would be nice to have W around I will look at the reason why I was thinking it right in that moment. Then I will take the measures to avoid this happening again. I will detach totally this way.

I won�t fear W getting mad at me so if needed I will state my opinion without any regards to how W looks at things.

I won�t read anything into her being nice and pleasant � this is just her matching me being nice and one of her ways to get things her way.

I will try to let go of my feeling of guilt towards the children and I won�t let W use this to put pressure on me.

If W at some point asks me something I won�t answer until I am sure that my answer is one that doesn�t regard my wish for R

I won�t decline an invitation from mutual friends just because W will be there.

I will adjust this document and thereby me as my life progresses and accordingly to new knowledge, advice or experience.

EXPECTED QUESTION/COMMENTS FROM W:
(If more the one ME: these are different possibilities and not to be stated at the same occasion.)

W:The children are hurting, please��
ME: It must be very difficult dealing with the children's sadness, but W, you surely thought about all this when you were making the decision to leave the M.

W: Why don�t you want to be friends?
ME: This is a result of your choices. I always wanted a R with you but that you chose to leave the R and along with you leaving came a different R for us. I will continue to co-parent, be the best father possible and I will be friendly towards you but I can�t be your friend.

W: Why don�t you want to do things as a family? / You are hurting the children when you don�t want to do things together with me
ME: Since you chose to break up the family the children have been hurting. They will hopefully get better in time and I won�t pull them through this again when OM or OW comes into the picture. I will help the children to the best of my abilities and therefore I will also try to protect them from further hurt.
ME: W, I am just trying to protect the children from further hurt. You chose to break up the family and I won�t be responsible for pulling the children through this process once again when one of us gets hooked up again.

W: Why don�t you answer my calls and texts?
ME: If I am not busy I do answer them � if you have something very important about the children then send me a text and I will get back to you as soon as possible.

W: Why haven�t you told me this before? / Why have you been so nice when we lived together?
ME: Things were different when we lived together after you made the decision to leave our M. You pretended and so did I � I felt I had to keep things light and pleasant for the children�s sake � they will always be my first priority.

W: Come on in and have a cup of coffee
ME: Thanks, but I have to meet somebody soon so I have to run

W: Can I come in?
ME: Nope, we/I do not have the time right now.
ME: Yes, but you have to leave quickly � I/we have plans and I don�t want to be delayed.

I will keep on working this and thereby me.

F

Quote:

I am getting there but still somewhat confused about this blame-assigning I asked you � should I do this?

First off, do not assign blame to her, if that is what you meant. The point in what I have told you was not to guilt her, nor to punish her. You aren't playing a blame game. She will NEVER go back to you if you do that. If I gave you that impression, I apologize b/c I never intend to give out that advice.

Let me tell you what the point is. It is to stop her from eating cake and trying to have family times and you as her BFF without the MR. I have tried to direct you in what to do to make a sharp turn from the path you were on. However, don't want you to jump across and miss the entire road!(joke)

Do not go to extremes on all of this. It is so hard to get something though you men's thick skull, and about the time I think one of you are getting the picture.....then I find you guys being too harsh, or too cold, or whatever.

. Seriously, I think you do very well to understand my English slang.

Let me try this again. You don't make up excuses about not attending her invitations. Lovethehub gave you excellent examples, btw, of what to say to her. You don't make up stuff by saying you don't "feel like it". But, You don't say something to intentionally make her feel guilty. You don't try to be mean or nasty in your statements to her. (Remember, you conduct yourself in a friend--ly manner.). You talk politely,if at all possible. If she complains about not having family occasions, or you not accepting invitations, or how sad the girls are, or any of that old stuff.....you give her an answer that directs the attention of the fact she chose to leave. You can say that without being hateful about it. And as LTH said, you can tell her you need to move forward.

You do not allow her to pull the "friendship card" whenever she decides she wants to share time with you. You do not act as though you are a married couple (like it is your responsibility to please her by doing what she wants). You don't let her show disrespect to you (especially in the presence of your children). You don't allow her to manipulate you. You don't buckle under her pressure or be "passive" acting, in order to get out of dealing with her. In other words, don't be a "yes dear" kind of man.

I am sure I am forgetting a lot, but I'm almost afraid to say much b/c I am worried you will go too far the opposite direction. I do believe a man has to show tough love with most WAW's b/c most WAW's are some level of rebellion. And most of them usually have another man waiting in the wings somewhere. That is "most". We have a famous American author that I have followed his books and programs for many years. Dr. James Dobson has written about tough love. If you can get a copy of his book, it may shed light on this subject. However, the board will not recommend it b/c they feel it doesn't line up with with everything they teach. I don't believe it is all that contrary, but it is more in how people interprets things. Many get the wrong impression when they hear those words....tough love. But so do people get the wrong idea about DB and think it is some kind of kiss-a$$ type of advice.

So, I hope you will read LTH's post again, b/c she really had great suggestions.

Btw, you have not messed up! I am so glad you wrote what you did today, before you did mess up and speak harshly to her. You don't have to be a sissy-acting boy with her, but neither be a bugger-bear.

LTH & Sandi

Thanks a million! Just read through your posts but time is 3 AM here and I need some sleep now. I will get back to you tomorrow but I get your drift!
Thanks again!

(I believe we have to discuss the blame-issue. I am not sure I get this totally and I will post about about this.)

Have a nice evening

LTH, Sandi

Thanks for all your advice � I simply don�t know how I would have gone through these days without this.

I do have a thick skull. It is hard getting anything inside but on the other hand it stays inside when it finally get there! I have been at home working on the house all day long and while doing that I have been thinking and to be honest I am not sure I get this. I believe it�s my male lizard brain working against me and at the same time it has to cope with female advice regarding female behavior and perception � that is truly a hard one.

When I am told not to call then I don�t, but then you tell me to talk to children on Skype. That demands giving her a call so she can help them and right there my male brain starts smoking. Don�t call her � do call her! I am a man, ladies � remember? When I have told you that I will follow your advice then I do so! Don�t call her means don�t call her like in never ever! Same applies on don�t go into her house and don�t give her any cake (family time).

Skype is family-time since she is right beside them � it is a very small cake or a crumb I know. I did call her today and asked if she could set the Ds up on Skype. She did and it was so nice seeing them and talking to them. If I can do this it will make me feel good but isn�t it working against the advice you gave me.
(By the way: W sounded funny when I called - almost like she was telling me in her tone "WhyTF are you calling?" She turned nice quite quickly and tried to keep the Ds focus on Skype. She also interrupted and told something about them having tea and CAKE

)

I am confused about when I can interact and at the same time I know I should chit-chat.
Is the point that I can contact her when it is about the children � also just a social call to the children like the Skype call?
Is this the �Bill and Boys� that I have read about in another sitch?
Should I chit-chat as long as it is strictly about Ds or should I only talk about facts, appointments, homework and leave out a nice moment with D and what if she starts doing this � should I end the talk? Sandi told me business-like convos at one time and that means no chit-chat at all as I see it!

I believe my confusion is centered on the exact do�s and don�ts and this is properly simply because my brain works squarely.

Do you know what I mean?

I am also confused about the sentences that I should use if she goes for the friend-issue again. I believe she will do this somewhere in the future. She won�t come directly at me � she will properly just invite me inside for coffee and when I turn her down she will ask why. This is the easy part since I can just state that I am meeting somebody or likewise. The hard part will be if she at some point want�s to discuss this! I will end the convo but still I need to say something to do it nicely.

It feels like I am missing the link or the road Sandi wrote about. Friends are to the left and blame is on the right � I have to walk this road and I can�t see it clearly � yet! I am getting closer but do believe I need some time to go over this � and luckily it seems like I have gotten the gift of time from W.

I don�t feel like being friends and I don�t feel like putting blame and guilt on her but you tell me to use words like �when you decided to leave� � isn�t this putting blame on her or is it just my lizardbrain once again?

Sandi, I don�t know if it was your writing, my reading or perhaps my English � but I thought you wanted me to assign blame (I haven�t done it!!). I did believe you wanted me to place the blame on her.
I am glad that I shouldn�t do this since I still feel no anger towards her. I believe she has the responsibility for BD but I still take my part of the responsibility for getting her there � that�s how I felt all the way and still does.

Originally Posted By: LTH

I know, it is hard on all of us. Unfortunately you and I knew it would be when you made this decision but the girls didn't really get it until after you moved

This sentence is simply excellent! I will have the hardest time doing sentences like this without totally understanding this. I understand all of your words but I don�t feel able to put them into action. I have tried to adjust towards your summary of how I should look at it all.

Some are yours and some are mine:
W: The children are hurting, please��
ME: It must be very difficult dealing with the children's sadness, but W, you surely thought about all this when you were making the decision to leave the M.
ME: I know, it is hard on all of us. Unfortunately you and I knew it would be when you made this decision but the girls didn't really get it until after you moved
W: Why don�t you want to be friends?
ME: This is a result of your choices. I always wanted a R with you but then you chose to leave the R and along with you leaving came a different R for us. I will continue to co-parent, be the best father possible and I will be friendly towards you but I can�t be your friend.

W: Why don�t you want to do things as a family? / You are hurting the children when you don�t want to do things together with me
ME: "W, I have thought a lot about doing things together as a family. You have chosen to move on and I don't see how this will help the girls in the long run. Us being friendly when we see each other will help the girls but dinner, I don't think that will help"
ME: W, I am just trying to protect the children from further hurt. Since you chose to move out the children have been hurting, but they will get better and I won�t be responsible for pulling them through this process once more when one of us gets hooked up again.
ME: W, the children are hurting because they don�t have us together anymore that�s just the deal of D and surely you have thought about this when you decided to move on. Having dinner once in a while will just rip up their wounds and I won�t do that.
W: Why don�t you answer my calls and texts?
ME: If I am not busy I do answer them � if you have something very important about the children then send me a text and I will get back to you as soon as possible.

W: Why haven�t you told me this before? / Why have you been so nice when we lived together?
ME: Things were different when we lived together after you made the decision to. You pretended and so did I � I felt I had to keep things light and pleasant for the children�s sake � they will always be my first priority. I will continue to be friendly with you but since we are not living together anymore I will not be your friend.

W: Come on in and have a cup of coffee
ME: Thanks, but I have to meet somebody soon so I have to run

W: Can I come in?
ME: Is there anything we need to address right now?
ME: Sorry, we/I do not have the time right now.
ME: Yes, but only for a minute or so � I/we have plans.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

I am sure I am forgetting a lot, but I'm almost afraid to say much b/c I am worried you will go too far the opposite direction.

Sandi�I won�t! I will do my best to stay on the path between friends and blame. I do believe I understand the principals but putting them in to actuals sentences when I talk to W will be my problem!

I will look into Dobson. �Love must be tough� is available on kindle so I can have that one in a second. He has also written �Love must be tough: Straight talk�. Which one are you suggesting? Both?

Perhaps I just need a day or two or a hundred going through this over and over - and then it will possible get through my skull. I want so bad to understand the why's and how's because then the do's will get so much easier! If at some point the two of you succeeds I would love to be able to tell you a shortcut to use in the future when other LBHs turns towards you.

Ladies, I keep on posting Thanks and it doesn�t cover my feelings towards all the time and help you have given me!

I am off to bed - enjoy the rest of your day and sleep tight when you decide the day has come to an end!

F

F, you are doing great, but I would think sandi is going to come back and tell you, you are putting too much thought into everything. Relax, we don't always say the right things at the right times. Just remember to change your focus: you are co-parenting, not friends.
With regards to Skype: should you not work out a time to call, as a permanent fixture. ie. when the girls are with W you will call on Thursday, Saturday and Monday at 7pm. The W can set up the computer, get it already and that's that. If the W is on Skype as well, again be friendly, but the focus is on the girls and what the girls are doing.
Hope it helps a bit.

Last night I spent almost an hour typing out a long post, trying to clarify my part in the advice I have given. Somehow, I accidentally lost every bit of it. Today, I take a deep breath and do it all over again. Guess what? I lost it again. I just can't go into all of it for the third time. I feel I am repeating myself, as it is.

I did not discuss the Skype with you, but at the risk of answering for LTH, you are not the W. You are calling the girls, you just have to go through the W to tell her you want to skype with the kids. You are not using Skype to communicate with her, it is "for" the girls.

You don't chit-chat in a llong, private conversation "to" her. You may not be able to advoid or ignore her when she is there with the kids, but you direct your attention to the kids......not the W. Why is that so hard,to understand? I have already told you not to get extreme and to use good common sense in these matters. If you want contact with the kids via Skype, then you have to go through her, but you don't make it "about" her. It is all about the kids. If W tries to ask questions during that time, you give short answers (politely), but quickly turn it around by saying something to one of the kids.

Sure you want a list of do's and don'ts, but I did a list like that one time and the next thing I knew, it was being called Sandi's rules. There are no rules, just suggestions and some examples. The same applies in your stitch presently. Nobody can tell you word for word what you say to W if she ask this or that, if she does this or that. All we can do is tell you not to be cold, rude, mean, or punitive. Don't make a call to her so you can chit-chat. But something may require you to have to call. Do you tell yourself you can't just b/c Sandi said no calls? Use your good common sense to decide if it is important enough to make an exception. Is it about the kids or business? If not, then that just leaves personal. That seems like a guide to me, but maybe I am forgetting something.

I did tell you that the answers you give to some of her questions regarding friendship, etc., should be directed to her choice in leaving you. It is the results of her decisions. But you don't get to tell her those exact words every time she asks something. She is suppose to get that message as time goes on. And there may be no other way to tell her why you are doing what you're doing now...without saying those exact,words. But if you are blunt and cold, it comes across as sounding like blame assigning. Don't throw blame directly in her face by sounding like you have eaten bitter grapes. Just remember that whenever you must be plain spoken to her, use a soft voice and keep the sound of revenge out of your tone. Understand? When I saw your examples of how you could answer some of her questions, that is when it hit me that you thought I was instructing you in how to talk to her hatefully. That would be hurting yourself. Instead, you want to say things and do things for her to get this message that this is the results of your decision to break up the family.

One more thing, then I have to stop tonight. If she comes to your house and asks if she can go in, my advice is to say, "sure". The reason is b/c your house was where she,shared part of her life with you. When she steps in that house, she has memories of those times. Hopefully, they will trigger positive emotions in her heart. Sometimes, it works in favor of the H for her to see the house that no longer has her personal touches that it once did. Do you see the difference in letting her come in your house, but you not going in hers? Again, these are guidelines. Don't get crazy and think if one of the girls are asleep when you take them home that you couldn't carry her into the hose. It's not like you were "staying" to visit with W, b/c you would turn around and leave once you had the child laid down. Use common sense!

Quote:

I will start at the end..Hotwheels is correct - you are putting WAY too much thought into this. You must be exhausted!

Yes, you are co-parenting and that is your focus. Set up the skype ahead of time, and if you can't, that is fine. When you do set it up, be direct, "I called to see if you can set the girls up on Skype".

Quote:

I metioned skyping the kids so that may be why Sandi didn't mention it in what to say. Again, don't be so literal. Calling her to interact with your children and calling her to interact with her are two completely different things.

Quote:

Skype is family-time since she is right beside them � it is a very small cake or a crumb I know

How is this family time? If she chooses to be right next to them it is because she wants you to see her. If you have a set schedule to skype it so you can see your daughters.

Quote:

Is the point that I can contact her when it is about the children � also just a social call to the children like the Skype call?

Unless it is an emergency, don't contact her at all. If it is for skyping, this schedule should be set up ahead of time and then she will clearly know it is about you seeing your children and not inventing reasons to contact her.

Quote:

Should I chit-chat as long as it is strictly about Ds or should I only talk about facts, appointments, homework and leave out a nice moment with D and what if she starts doing this � should I end the talk? Sandi told me business-like convos at one time and that means no chit-chat at all as I see it!

Do not chit-chat. Set up skype on a regular schedule and ignore the rest. Yes, listen to Sandi. "Business-like" Do you discuss your d's and what is going on with your clients?

Quote:

I believe my confusion is centered on the exact do�s and don�ts and this is properly simply because my brain works squarely.

Do you know what I mean?

F, we want care about you and want to help you - you simply cannot overthink every little thing.

Quote:

I am also confused about the sentences that I should use if she goes for the friend-issue again. I believe she will do this somewhere in the future. She won�t come directly at me � she will properly just invite me inside for coffee and when I turn her down she will ask why. This is the easy part since I can just state that I am meeting somebody or likewise. The hard part will be if she at some point want�s to discuss this! I will end the convo but still I need to say something to do it nicely.

This is not the "easy part" You have to establish a boundary, not make an excuse that leads her to believe you are in a hurry. She must know that you don't want to be friends, you just want to be friendly. Sandi and I have both given you examples of things to say. Where is your confusion coming in on this?

Quote:

I don�t feel like being friends and I don�t feel like putting blame and guilt on her but you tell me to use words like �when you decided to leave� � isn�t this putting blame on her or is it just my lizardbrain once again?

You don't want to put blame on her? Are we clear on this? a day or two ago you wanted her to tell the D's it was her fault. F, there isn't any blame to assign. Yes, you 180'd and W didnt' respond, however, even according to you she tried to get you to understand before BD. So it isn't your W's fault. You both failed. You before BD, your W after. The words are simply to show that she made the decision to go and that is why you need to move on. If you suddenly aren't comfortable with blame, adjust the words accordingly.

Quote:

Sandi, I don�t know if it was your writing, my reading or perhaps my English � but I thought you wanted me to assign blame (I haven�t done it!!). I did believe you wanted me to place the blame on her.
I am glad that I shouldn�t do this since I still feel no anger towards her. I believe she has the responsibility for BD but I still take my part of the responsibility for getting her there � that�s how I felt all the way and still does.

F, seriously? You have repeatedly spoken about W needing to accept responsibility with D's for making this decision. NOW you don't blame her and don't know where Sandi got the idea you should? She may be R for BD but you have just as much, if not more, R for before BD. And I say 'if not more' because you admitted she tried to get you to understand how she felt.

Quote:

Again, since you have repeatedly pointed out that it is your W's fault, and the kids should know this, I have no clear idea on how you don't understand this. It doesn't even place the blame on fully on her.

F, it seems you keep asking the same ?s until you get an answer that you like, or wording that you like. (The Girl Scout issue with D^ is a perfect example, we all gave you great ways to handle it and reasons why D6 shouldn't miss out. You asked several times until Sandi agreed with you and then you never mentioned it again so I am assuming you have your justification not to agree with W on GS)

I think F is so organized and black and white that the extra work he is putting in is actually making this more complicated than it is.

You have put a lot off effort into that list. It's a good list but it's not and never will be everything.

Take this for example:
W: Why don�t you want to be friends?

Chances are she won't ask this.

She might ask Will we ever be friends?
Whats your answer? It's not on your list so you don't have one.

All times I have tried to predict what was going to happen when I interact with W I have been way off. Just know your general position and try to stick to that if possible and use your judgement every time (something I am guilty of not doing).
I believe part of my problems right now is I never used my judgement t all I just I stuck to the rules. They are guide lines and the sooner you get that hopefully the simpler this will become.

Well said T!

It amazes me how men relate to each other. It takes me pages to say something one of the guys sum up in a couple of sentences.

I hope F look below for an example:

Quote:

All times I have tried to predict what was going to happen when I interact with W I have been way off. Just know your general position and try to stick to that if possible and use your judgement every time (something I am guilty of not doing).

So true! T would devote the entire THREAD to what he "could" say or "might" say to his W. But you can't whip out a little memo pad where you've written possible responses, in just in case you're asked something by your W.

Quote:

I believe part of my problems right now is I never used my judgement t all I just I stuck to the rules. They are guide lines and the sooner you get that hopefully the simpler this will become.

Thanks for telling F this about your experience, T. The two of you do remind me of each other in wanting a list of do's and don'ts for each situation. It's not always that cut & dry. That's life. Nothing is always going to be exactly the same every time.

But when you know the main purpose, the goal, your boundaries, and apply your good judgement (or common sense) to the situation at hand.....then you won't appear to be so ridgid.

T can tell you, F, learning how to balance and learning good timing is everything!

Sorry accidentally hit "enter". F, just checking up on you. Seeing how everything is going?
Some of us males do make it hard for ourselves, by wanting answers to all our questions. Right or wrong, it is only because we want to do the best in this horrible situation we find ourselves in. We don't want to blow the only chance we might have by saying or doing the wrong thing/s.

HWA, Sandi, T & LTH

Thanks for all your advice and caring! I needed some time for me and that�s why I haven�t answered.
I need time to process all of this and writing about it in here doesn�t seem to get me any closer! I read and understand all your words but converting them into real life is hard on me! I want to do well and I fear making mistakes so much that it will drive me towards insanity if I don�t get hold of me!

I have been feeling good since starting LRT but today I am home alone and my brain is going in all directions. I feel sad, then I feel good, I feel hopeless and 2 min. later I believe she will come back. My feelings are all over me and I guess that�s why I am looking for rules. I want something firm to hold on to during this and I have been searching desperately for this in here, with coach, in books, at shrink and everywhere.
I need to realize that firm doesn�t exits and that I will have to go with my own beliefs adjusted towards the advice of friendly neighbor. I need to understand this concept fully and from thereon trust my feelings and my beliefs.

T, I believe to some extend that you might be right about me being black/white and that this is also one of the reason for me finding myself here. I want to do the things, that gives me the best odds for R in the future and as I see it, this means going with Sandis, LTHs and your advice. I try to follow the advice strictly as a new set of rules but I guess I am realizing now it is not rules and when Sandi tell me not to go into Ws house she is really saying �Don�t go into W house if not for children�s sake. When I am told �Not to help W with a light bulb� It means �Don�t help W with a light bulb unless you would have done the same for a complete stranger�
That�s what I have to measure my future actions against as I see it now! So rules goes to the dumpster and in comes these principles that have to sink in and become a part of me!

I need to work through this my own way but based on the advice (that I now see as guidelines) given to me.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

Don't make a call to her so you can chit-chat. But something may require you to have to call. Do you tell yourself you can't just b/c Sandi said no calls?

Yes, I did! When you say no calls and let her calls go to VM then I don�t call and I get a VM! To me don�t is don�t! Black and white! You do or do not! So reading your post once again I still read the same �don�t call� but I now get that while these were the words, the intention of them was another � It was to make me pull back! But when you initially told me what to do I told you that I would follow through! When I state a thing like that I do my best to make it happen!
That�s why I have been confused: Advice is to do or not to do but the guidelines (friendly neighbor) is otherwise. The guidelines and these hard suggestions didn�t match up in my head. I will from hereon go with the guidelines and then if needed make rules on my own to keep me on the path.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

But when you know the main purpose, the goal, your boundaries, and apply your good judgement (or common sense) to the situation at hand.....then you won't appear to be so ridgid.
T can tell you, F, learning how to balance and learning good timing is everything!

Although I am not sure how to understand the balance and good timing � this is what I will do!

I want to be happy, I want my family back and I won�t take any abuse.
I want to be the best farther and a nice and pleasant human being.

Now, about the blaming part:
I don�t believe Sandi told me to put the blame on W anymore � I believe I misread, misinterpreted or something her words and that were why I kept on asking about it - without doing it! I do blame W (internally) for the way she made this happen � that I am guilty off but I also blame myself. At first I felt all the responsibility for BD was mine but I was advised to adjust this and so I have.
I see why she did it, I see my own stupid actions, I see a lot, but as many LBH I do not see the reasonable part of BD without talking first. I know she properly feels that we have talked, that she have tried and so on but that is her POV and not mine. I believe LTH, Labug, Adinva and more 2x4 me months ago about this taking responsibility in front of the children. You all did well and managed to get a new POV through my thick and sometimes unreasonable skull. This still sticks with me!
I don�t feel anger towards W, I don�t feel she is entirely responsible, I feel this is 50%++ my fault. I would like for her to take her part, but that�s up to her and not to me! Sometimes I just feel like grabbing her and giving her a good shake to wake her up, but I understand that this can�t be done. I feel like reasoning with her, talking with her and so on but also know from advice and costly experience that this won�t get me anywhere.
I have thought about the words of LTH and still am � could I just be kidding myself and subconsciously feel otherwise??? I simply don�t know!

LTH, I hope you understand me! Thanks for the 2x4 about responsibility! I do not agree fully but I know what you mean and simply knowing that demands for me to get into this one level deeper.

I still don�t get the difference between pointing things at her decision and blaming! This could be due to my foreign interpretation of the words, me seeing black/white or simply because I don�t get it�but I do feel responsible!

Originally Posted By: Sandi

When I saw your examples of how you could answer some of her questions, that is when it hit me that you thought I was instructing you in how to talk to her hatefully. That would be hurting yourself. Instead, you want to say things and do things for her to get this message that this is the results of your decision to break up the family.

A sentence like this confused me and still does!
I wouldn�t use the word hatefully but you are right! I thought you told me to put the blame on her and I didn�t get it � that�s another reason for confusion.
I get that you want me to be nice but also to let her know that all of this is a result of her decision. Last part will be hard so I have turned it around. These sentences that I have written have to go! Instead I am working on a list of words not to use. Responsibility, fault and guilt are good examples � these has to go if W ever addresses this friendship matter again.

This is solid advice:

Originally Posted By: Sandi

One more thing, then I have to stop tonight. If she comes to your house and asks if she can go in, my advice is to say, "sure". The reason is b/c your house was where she,shared part of her life with you. When she steps in that house, she has memories of those times. Hopefully, they will trigger positive emotions in her heart.

This is action-oriented, it is explained so I know the why and it follows the friendly neighbor.

Originally Posted By: HWA

HWA � I don�t feel I am doing great at the moment but I will try to let your words convince me otherwise! And you are so right in stating that I should relax and simply just co-parent � I am having the hardest time relaxing and only co-parenting!

Thanks!

F

I texted W this morning at 8.45AM and asked if she could set up the girls for a skype-session. Not answer but she logged onto skype 4 hours later and immediately called.

The girls weren�t up to anything. They were busy doing all kinds of stuff and didn�t feel like talking�.that hurt me! Not that I don�t get them but I would just have loved to see and hear them.

W looked as always � she told me that D6 was going to a friend and then asked how I am. I told her �I am fine but a little tired after yesterday� Then she asked what I did yesterday and I told her in one short sentence.

Well that�s it � I will talk to her at some point about this Skype and get it scheduled.

I miss my girls!

F,

Good to see you, I thought you were going dark on us. (Just kidding!)

You really are doing great, hang in there.

I only have one thing to say about pointing out and blaming. I often say to my children "it's not what you say, it's how you say it". Think of it that way. If you said to W "no we can't be friends and it's your fault because you left", what would the reaction be? It definitely wouldn't be good! However, if you say "W, I want to be friendly for the girls, however, I can't hang out like friends. I am sorry, you chose to move on and I need to do the same", it still points out her decision but without the blame.

LTH

Thanks for all your kind words and advice!

Originally Posted By: LTH

Good to see you, I thought you were going dark on us. (Just kidding!)

LOL
I have been thinking and GALing � both to extremes

I am not going dark on anyone ever again without telling them in advance! I believe this is some kind of what I did to W prior to BD!

Originally Posted By: LTH

You really are doing great, hang in there.

HWA told me so as well � I am having a hard time believing it

Originally Posted By: LTH

I only have one thing to say about pointing out and blaming. I often say to my children "it's not what you say, it's how you say it". Think of it that way. If you said to W "no we can't be friends and it's your fault because you left", what would the reaction be? It definitely wouldn't be good! However, if you say "W, I want to be friendly for the girls, however, I can't hang out like friends. I am sorry, you chose to move on and I need to do the same", it still points out her decision but without the blame.

This I do get! I really understand it and believe I could write a thesis about it right now! It actually is doing it that�s causing all the problems in my head!

I have to small questions:

As I recall, Sandi told me not to do Christmas, children�s birthday or anything and I do believe she meant this. What�s your opinion on this one? I wouldn�t do that with a neighbor but I would for the children. I am thinking about me,W and children in a short get-to-gether on these occasions, but I don�t know!

Was is you writing about how your happy posting on FB tricked something in your H. I did post 2 things on FB yesterday and got a lot of likes and comments. I have never done this before but I am thinking about being more active on FB but this seems to go opposite of all I read in here.

F

Quote:

The girls weren�t up to anything. They were busy doing all kinds of stuff and didn�t feel like talking�.that hurt me! Not that I don�t get them but I would just have loved to see and hear them.

My experience with children was to find them most anxious to talk when they came in from school. They want to share what happened throughout their day. Sometimes I had to prompt them by leading with questions that required more than a "yes" or "no" answer.

When you interrupt them out of something they are enjoying at that moment, they may not want to leave that action in order to have a conversation. That is just how little ones are.

That is a small example of the "timing" I mentioned. We don't always hit the right timing in things, but we can learn what wasn't the best time for certain activities, conversations, approaches of certain subject matters, etc. , and try to choose a better time for better results.

F, I feel somewhat responsible for your depression and confusion. For my own sainty, i can't take responsibility for anyone's R success or failures. I know there is always a risk when one is trying to advise another one, and the risk is greater when they are strangers......and even greater still, when there is a difference in language. Hence, my telling you to always ask questions to clarify anything you don't understand. And as far as I can tell, you were doing so.

You are correct, I was trying to get you to detach from the pattern of behaviors you were accustomed to doing in this R with your W. You were asking very detailed questions that would have taken weeks to answer all the scenarios of daily interactions. I should have gone more slowly instead of trying to give you a wider scope of the plan. As I told you before, I assumed you were getting the general idea of what i was trying to teach you about entering a new phase of action. Obviously, I was wrong.

Perhaps I threw too much at you at once, or maybe you were going off into all the "what if she says this or does that" sceneros that was too much to handle in written out conversations. You will always have a connection with this woman for the rest of your life. There is no way on earth any of us can give you a book of "rules" to use for every thing that is going to happen between the two of you till death parts you. Now, do see how "extreme" I sound? You may be thinking, "Sandi, come on now, I didn't mean I had to have a book of rules for every scenerio!". Well, that is how it sounds when you come back and say that I told you no more calls and do not enter W's house. You make it sound that you could NEVER, under any circumstances go beyond the doorway of her house. As if it had the plague! You said no calls meant just that.....no more calls . Really? You didn't know that I was giving a guide as how you are to handle getting away from her R hold? You don't know anything that would tell you instinctively that you needed to make an exception?
F, it is a GUIDELINE, not the Bible. Life is too full of unexpected situations for you to be so rigid. There will be exceptions, this is a fact of life we all have to deal with. My mistake was assuming you knew.

I try to speak plainly b/c most LBH's want to use their kids as a crutch to keep contacting the WAW. He will cling to the excuse he had to check to seeif his kids were okay. So, when you told us that you and W trusted each other with the welfare of the children, I was relieved. I thought we would really get somewhere on this road, since you would not be the type to find excuses to keep from detaching from W. It also caused me to believe you would be one who knew the difference between what was an ecxuse (or crutch) from what was of true exception.

I have tried to give you guidelines for detaching. I have tried to give you guidelines in how to conduct yourself.... with the intent of having her to face losing you and the relationship it offered. The plan was that as result of your interactions (or lack thereof), she would see that she can't have it both ways. She can't enjoy family b/c she tore it apart. She can't enjoy hanging out with you and chit-chatting about her life b/c she left you. She would finally see that she lost of it due to her decision to leave you and break up the family. This was her choice. She hears that message in the lack of availability she sees in you. She hears that message in you lack of interest in her. She hears that message in the answers you give her when she asks why. She will know that this has all come about as a result of her decisions. This is what,she wanted? That question is what she will begin to doubt in herself. All b/c she sees what she has lost. That, the loss, is the result.

The intent is not for you to set about being her punisher. She will punish herself. Her guilt, the loss will punish her. Her seeing the result of her own decisions is what punishers her. Do you understand that point? She will see and hear that message loud and clear in everything.

The plan was so she would miss you and want to regain what she lost. You have made it so complicated for yourself, till you are further confused about what to do. I feel badly about it, but I don't know how to be much more clearer (but I will try to clarify any statements as best as I can). As with many LBH's, you want a visible line drawn, or scales to show how to balance things so not to get extreme. But you must rely on personal boundaries, common sense, and your own good judgement.

Sandi,

First and most important � don�t feel bad, sad or anything negative and don't feel responsible! You have advised me and I have read and implemented. I am the do�er and I make the decisions � we just misinterpreted each other and I get why you stated things this way. I have read some LBHs sitches in here and I do get you!

It took some well-meant harsh words, a lot of thought and some good GAL � then I got it!

I don�t see any harm done! I haven�t been unpleasant with W or done anything punitive as I see it.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

As with many LBH's, you want a visible line drawn, or scales to show how to balance things so not to get extreme. But you must rely on personal boundaries, common sense, and your own good judgement.

I was looking for this line simply because I believed that you were trying to show. Now I understand that you stated what you did to be sure that I really pulled back. I have pulled back and perhaps 10% to much but that was only for a few days. I believe I am on track now following the guidelines.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

The plan was so she would miss you and want to regain what she lost. You have made it so complicated for yourself, till you are further confused about what to do. I feel badly about it, but I don't know how to be much more clearer (but I will try to clarify any statements as best as I can).

I understand the plan and I don�t like that your sentence is in past time � isn�t this the plan for the months to come?
You are clear as glass right now! Do you believe any of my actions the last two weeks have complicated my sit (or is it just my brain you are writing about)?

Originally Posted By: Sandi

You said no calls meant just that.....no more calls . Really? You didn't know that I was giving a guide as how you are to handle getting away from her R hold? You don't know anything that would tell you instinctively that you needed to make an exception?

Yes, really! When you told me not to answer her calls � I stopped
Don�t answer her texts � I stopped
Don�t call � I stopped
�.and so on! Perhaps I am not average but that�s what I did and I will try to explain why!

This got me confused because I found myself in a situation where I believed that the right thing to do was to answer. Problem is that if I had gone with my feelings and my belief from day one I would still be pleading. This is not about what I believe and to put it in your own words: It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

Try to look back: LBH don�t know what works � if we go with our own sense, our own feelings and our own beliefs we would simply cry, plead and beg for a year. I know I am in a different place now but I still don�t or didn�t trust my own judgment until I woke up today! Why should I? DBing is counterintuitive and you can multiply this several times to get the LBH point of view. We want to cry, talk, plead, understand and so on � all the things we shouldn�t do. That�s why I took your words so literally! I (and properly a lot of other LBH) shouldn�t or couldn�t trust our own judgment. That�s why I look for rules � those I can follow. Guidelines demands a judgment every time.
Do you get me?

If we do continue this I will gladly open my brain totally for you if you would like this. I know that you understand LBH action but perhaps I can give you a little more insight on the reasons and the thoughts � why so many of us fall through.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

"Sandi, come on now, I didn't mean I had to have a book of rules for every scenerio!". Well, that is how it sounds when you come back and say that I told you no more calls and do not enter W's house.

Sandi, I am not blaming you for anything � I am trying to explain why I got this impression! I can see how it sounded and I can see my posting going totally off the track that was intended. That�s simply due to the fact that I didn�t get anything as I hopefully has explained in the above.

I still want to do this your way, I want to follow your advice and implement your thoughts in my life and sitch � nothing has changed except now I got the picture.

I hope so much that you will keep helping me on my road, that you will give me guidelines when something happen and help me make the right choices.

Sandi, thank you so much! I do hope the above make sense!

F

Quote:

I don�t see any harm done! I haven�t been unpleasant with W or done anything punitive as I see it.

That's good.

Quote:

Now I understand that you stated what you did to be sure that I really pulled back.

Yes, I was really trying to get you to pull way back, b/c you had not detached since you first arrived on the board. I believe a lot of confusion started that day you told us your W had tried to make contact several times and you would not take her call. Then somebody mentioned that it might be something extremely important (like one of the kids got hurt, for example). Then I wanted you to understand that whenever you co-parent, you have to make allowances for emergencies.....and one thing kind of lead to another. I think the best thing to do (if you feel that you do get it now), is to proceed with the plan.

Even though you are having to implement some tough decisions, you still hope that one day she will want to come back home to you. That is why you can't be a jerk. I hope you know how to be strong and yet charming, b/c that is what you will need to do. Anyone can act like a jerk, but she won't want to return to a R with a jerk.

Quote:

I understand the plan and I don�t like that your sentence is in past time � isn�t this the plan for the months to come?

It is the plan for months to come. But please do not get off into worrying over things that are a ways off. This is something that is not set in stone. It will be tweaked according to how things are going at that time.

Quote:

Do you believe any of my actions the last two weeks have complicated my sit (or is it just my brain you are writing about)?

Ha, mostly your brain.

No, I believe we got it straighten out before the R became more complicated.

Quote:

This got me confused because I found myself in a situation where I believed that the right thing to do was to answer. Problem is that if I had gone with my feelings and my belief from day one I would still be pleading. This is not about what I believe

It is often hard to separate our emotions and act according to what somebody else says works. The WAS is in a state of hurt and confusion when they come here, and it takes time for them to get to a place they are able to just "hear" what others are saying.

Quote:

I know I am in a different place now but I still don�t or didn�t trust my own judgment until I woke up today!

Well, I'm glad you feel like you can trust your judgement. You have to be able to make some judgement calls when it comes to the people we love. Those are your kids and she's their mother and that's not going to change. We want to help you get to a better place. But always remember this F, (and it goes for me or anyone here giving advice), you make the final decision. If it seems absolutely wrong, then that may be your common sense telling you that you know better than we do b/c you know your W and the situation better . For example, when you explained that defriending her on FB could be seen as cultural offensive, and I immediately told you to not do it if that was the case. You did not have to explain anything else to me. That was one of those good common senses kicking in your gut.

I hope I can help. That's why I'm here.

Quote:

Anyone can act like a jerk, but she won't want to return to a R with a jerk.

Hi F - not to hijack your thread. I have followed your situation since I joined and I always respected your effort that you put into it. This above statement is something that I struggle with for personal reasons. You however seem to have a good handle on implementing a strategy once you understand what others are trying to say. I on the other hand need the whack across the head for it to sink in, not because I don't know what is best, it's because the situation gets the best of me and my emotions still fail me.

Sandi has always been helpful and seems to have a great perspective on the WAS. She has helped me in the past, but I was/still not smart enough to fully understand everything she has to offer. Half of what she says, and she admits to this, is we are not ready to hear her early on. Just like it's an evolution for the WAS and their journey, it is for us it seems to have a parallel journey that hopefully will converge someday. The WAS is said to be in their fog, and it certainly is true for me as well being the LBS.

Stay strong and live your life healthy. I will be trying as well as it seems my situation is slowly following your path.

"not because I don't know what is best, it's because the situation gets the best of me and my emotions still fail me."

Dont mean to hijack either but, this is exactly how I am. I'm a grown man acting like a winey wuss and haven't found the formula to get over this sadness. The worst part is I dont understand why I still let the emotions get the best of me. There has to be something to let me start walking like a man again and let me really detach....

Sandi,

Originally Posted By: Sandi

I think the best thing to do (if you feel that you do get it now), is to proceed with the plan.
I am up for it � I am ready!

I will be:
Strong (GAL, PMA and Boundaries)
Changing (continuing the work on me, work on home, success at work and hopefully solving medical issues so I can get back to exercising.)
Totally withdrawn towards her by no contacts but kid-stuff, no questions, only answer direct questions on practical�s and don�t go out of my ways to help her and just treating her like the neighbor or the stranger asking for directions
Charming by tone of voice, smile, looks and attitude.

Originally Posted By: Sandi

Even though you are having to implement some tough decisions, you still hope that one day she will want to come back home to you. That is why you can't be a jerk.

The tough thing in all this right now is not having Ds around that much but I believe I will learn to enjoy my time alone. I believe W sees me as a jerk right now because I don�t want the familytime but nothing else. Perhaps a few missed calls but I am sure she will get over that quickly when she meets the pleasant me!
I don�t want to be a jerk in any way! Some part of me feel like one since I don�t give the Ds family-time but in the long run this will be best for all. So the upsides of feeling jerkish outweighs the downsides, right?

Originally Posted By: Sandi

you make the final decision

I totally agree and that�s exactly why you should not feel any kind of responsibility.
My sit, my life and me implementing advice!

Originally Posted By: Sandi

I hope I can help. That's why I'm here.

This makes me truly happy and much more comfortable! You already have helped me so much but I do hope that you are up for one more of my questions. (And properly a few hundreds more in the time to come)

I don�t feel that much in doubt regarding interactions with W and without kids this would be simplified a lot. Should I act on my feelings towards and for the children as long I am NOT giving W family time??
As a couple of examples:
Before she moved out we talked about me having one of Ds a night out of schedule sometimes. I feel I could ask W this without giving her cake � do you agree?
If I feel like talking to Ds should I � at any given time � simply just call and state this (and only this) to W?
(I will get the schedule if possible but there will be times out of this when I will feel like calling Ds)
I know Ds will miss W when they are here � should I help them give her a call without them or her asking for it? (This could be read as brownie-points but Ds feelings should IMO be more important.)

Originally Posted By: Sandi

Then just bring it on � I feel ready!
I will try not to worry but that is truly hard with a head like mine. Right now I believe the first thing to happen (if any) is W bringing up the family-thing again. Until then or something else I will post interactions with W and some about my life.
If you need for me to explain something then please let me know.

Thanks!

Today I picked up S10 at W1s place and stayed there for a little while. S10 had a cold so no school today � we just went home and we have had the best of days. I enjoy the time with him so much and believe this is a mutual feeling.
S10 told me that XW1 and W ate dinner with the children�s yesterday at Ws place. I knew this was coming but it still gives me some unpleasant feelings. My whole family without me, but I can�t go there. I am guessing that W is trying to get her cake this way and hopes it won�t do.
IMO this is good for the children so I will just have to swallow the camel and then wonder why XW1 didn�t tell me this when I visited today.
XW1 is nicer than ever towards me! The invitation to go with her and S10 on ski has been mentioned again, standing closer, talking more and so on. I don�t believe anything should be put into this other than she has no reason not to be nice and pleasant but it is still a little funny in all of this(don�t worry, Sandi).

W sent me a text last night about some missing things and asked if I knew anything.
She has gone quite businesslike in her wording and she has stopped using smileys�I read a change and I am certain this is due to me telling her that friends won�t do for me. But then again I am mindreading and do not know anything.
I answered kindly this morning and got a reply back in same style, but with a new question that I also answered.

I called W this evening to talk to the girls but they were watching a show so W told me they would call back and they did. D6 didn�t feel like talking but D4 and I had a chat and that was nice! She is looking forward to seeing me Wednesday and she was just the sweetest on the phone. I will have to learn that I miss them and I definitely need more pictures around me.
I also need to schedule this with W. I don�t feel like calling her every other evening but as LTH wrote this will be easier with a schedule. I mentioned this to W this evening without making the actual schedule and she asked why. I told her that I miss the Ds and it�s nice to talk to them. I felt awkward saying this because I don�t feel like sharing that feeling with her but it is the truth and the only thing I could think about stating at the moment.
She came back on the phone after talk with D4 and I ended convo almost immediately.

I went to the hospital today and got examined by the doctors. I will have to go through surgery on sept. 19. This is good news exept I worry about the possible side effects.

I have had a nice afternoon after hospital working on my home � there�s a long way to go but it keeps getting more and more MY home and I like it!

XW1 called twice today! First time about some homework S10 didn�t do yesterday and she was mad. I told her that IMO when you are to sick to go to school then you are to sick to do homework aswell and then I told her not to direct her anger at him but at me if any! That cooled her down totally!
Second time this evening we talked for half an hour. S10 has been crying � he expresses sadness that he won�t see his sisters more than 3 days every two weeks. We talked about this and I told her that I will talk with S10 the upcoming weekend and also told her that I still need some time to figure out how I feel all of this should be handled to secure the children�s happiness in the best way. I told her that IMO I need to guard a rule about these weekends having at least one day where there�s no sports, no birthdays and so on otherwise these three children won�t get any time together. It was quite a nice talk but afterwards I have been thinking if I should have stated this.
XW1 also told me that S10 will stay the night at W in 10 days. She did ask me but I am having 15 guys visiting my home that day and night and it won�t be a place for 10 year olds.

Shortly after W called twice � I was busy and didn�t hear the phone but called her back. D6 picked up and asked if she could attend girlscout tomorrow. I was caught off guard and did a stupid, stupid thing � I said �I don�t know!� I should know better than leave a question like that unanswered! Later on I told her that we will go tomorrow and that we will talk about GS the following weekend but damage was done. D4 came on and then W for 2 seconds.
W called again later and told me that D6 had been crying and that she was sorry about me being caught off guard (before I mentioned anything!) Then she started chit-chatting. I tried several times to end the convo but didn�t manage to so it ended up lasting 10.33 min and I said almost nothing. She primarily talked about the Ds but also a little about a mutual friend that has gotten very ill.

So lessons of the day!
Strict plans for the children�s activities at least one week in advance
Practice on ending Ws chit-chats

SteveH and 2old

Thanks for looking in on me! I do hope that all the time and effort put into my sit by VETs and others can help � not just me � but a lot of LBHs. So when the two of you posts here it makes me glad!

Originally Posted By: Steve27

You however seem to have a good handle on implementing a strategy once you understand what others are trying to say.

Thanks for these kinds words!
I try my best and hope you are right! When I get it I do feel I am able to implement it and even though Sandi might disagree I have felt this way from early on. I now know that I properly followed the wrong path and the reason for me to do that was that this path simply was the one I believed the most and that�s only due to LBH-fog!

Originally Posted By: 2old

The worst part is I dont understand why I still let the emotions get the best of me.

I have been guilty of this and so have almost all LBH � if not every single one! It�s not about if it happens because it will over and over for a long time � it�s about what you do when it happen and I try to follow the rule of doing absolutely nothing when I carry my feelings on the outside. The 48 hour rule is also a dear friend of mine!

Originally Posted By: 2old

There has to be something to let me start walking like a man again and let me really detach....

IMHO only one thing � YOU! Don�t even think about detaching for real right now � you will have to fake it! Get your emotions and thereby yourself under control � that should be your first step! Start by focusing on you by:
Exercising
Gaining knowledge about the WAS and your situation
Changing your looks and your surroundings
GAL and focus on meeting NEW people or taking up old friendships
�and then stick to Sandi2s rules: they will keep you on the right path if you follow them!

Originally Posted By: Steve27

Stay strong and live your life healthy. I will be trying as well as it seems my situation is slowly following your path.

I am not up to speed on your sit but if you do believe you are going down the same track then do be aware of not misinterpreting signals from your W. If you have read my threads (and spend the week it takes) you will know that my W did so many nice things and acted very pleasant, but still moved out!

Be strong! I wish you guys all the best!

F

Quote:

I don�t want to be a jerk in any way! Some part of me feel like one since I don�t give the Ds family-time but in the long run this will be best for all. So the upsides of feeling jerkish outweighs the downsides, right?

The point I want you to understand is that your W has used the excuse of giving the Ds family-time, which to her means all of you together. This is how she gets to eat cake. So, try to re-train yourself to think of family time meaning you spending time with your girls. Some day, hopefully, it will include all the family members, but for now it will be you and the children.

Quote:

When she begins to see you and the girls enjoying time together (family time) without her.....she will see a new definition in that term she uses. Right now, she is defining her version. You have your own.

You will miss them when they aren't with you, that is a fact in which you can't pretend otherwise.....nor would I want you to do so. My son has gone through his first year of divorce. He also has two little girls. He was the stay at home parent, and suddenly everything turned upside down for him.

Quote:

Before she moved out we talked about me having one of Ds a night out of schedule sometimes. I feel I could ask W this without giving her cake � do you agree?

Yes, I agree. As long as you are not doing it as favor for the W. Not that you can control her going out while the girls are in your care, but neither do you want to appear as a handy babysitter. Again, you can't get too rigid about some of these things, or you may look "jerkish" to her.

Quote:

I told her that IMO I need to guard a rule about these weekends having at least one day where there�s no sports, no birthdays and so on otherwise these three children won�t get any time together. It was quite a nice talk but afterwards I have been thinking if I should have stated this.

F, try not to be too rigid. I still don't understand the harm in D participating in scouts and if two nights a month your schedule is off, that's really not a big deal. As for having a day each weekend you have them that you will not allow sports or birthdays, is that practical? If your son joins a sports league, what will he do? If they get invited to a party, they can't go? I know you need to balance activities and family time, however, these issues are faced by families every day whether they are M or D. Yes, some kids are in too many things and it rules lives completely, but it is hard to just pick a day and say "nope, you can't do anything on Sat/Sun". In an effort to keep things under control, we only allow one activity at a time. If S is doing baseball, no scouts, etc..

Quote:

F, I can't help but think that your with/without time is very long. Is this the norm in your country? I had to go through parenting classes when ex and I separated (mandatory for all D's with kids) and also had to take my D to a psychologist when ex took me to court for custody issues. We were told that 7 days on/7 days off was okay when kids were older but was too much time apart from one parent when they were little. Is 50/50 each week an option?

I can understand your concern on not having any "family" time with D's. Sandi is right, this is your family now. Yes, there are times where parents will spend bdays and major holidays together for the kids, and that is great. What Sandi is trying to help you with is the fact that your W wants this family time regularly to ease the consequences of her actions. If she gets all of this family time, she will be less likely to miss you. Christmas is a long way off in DBland, maybe by then it will be okay to spend some time together that day.

Quote:

If I feel like talking to Ds should I � at any given time � simply just call and state this (and only this) to W?
(I will get the schedule if possible but there will be times out of this when I will feel like calling Ds)

If you really want to talk them, yes, call. You don't have to have a schedule, that suggestion was to ease your concerns about W misunderstanding why you are calling. You don't have to be rude/abrupt either (and only this), you can be friendly and say what you want without worrying if a few other words are in the conversation!

Quote:

I called W this evening to talk to the girls but they were watching a show so W told me they would call back and they did. D6 didn�t feel like talking but D4 and I had a chat and that was nice! She is looking forward to seeing me Wednesday and she was just the sweetest on the phone. I will have to learn that I miss them and I definitely need more pictures around me.
I also need to schedule this with W. I don�t feel like calling her every other evening but as LTH wrote this will be easier with a schedule. I mentioned this to W this evening without making the actual schedule and she asked why. I told her that I miss the Ds and it�s nice to talk to them. I felt awkward saying this because I don�t feel like sharing that feeling with her but it is the truth and the only thing I could think about stating at the moment.

F, can you video chat? This would be even better for the girls and more interesting to them. Little children are not the greatest at phone conversations but at least they could see your face every couple of days. You should not feel awkward about saying that you missed them and wanted to talk to them, it is the truth.

Quote:

went to the hospital today and got examined by the doctors. I will have to go through surgery on sept. 19. This is good news exept I worry about the possible side effects.

I am sorry you have to have surgery but hopefully this means they actually know what the problem is now and they can fix it?! Good luck

Hey F, thanks for the words and yes, reading ppls sitchs' here helps to see were not the only one going thru this. Im into 4 months now and am now trying to really get a grip and move forward. I believe you are right when you say gaining knowledge about our WAS' and our sitch. B/c without that info I dont know how far we can really get to honestly move forward. I may be wrong but may not be either. As Ive heard many times we cannot control what our WAS' are doing but maybe understanding why they did helps the LBS.

Originally Posted By: lovethehub

I know you need to balance activities and family time, however, these issues are faced by families every day whether they are M or D. Yes, some kids are in too many things and it rules lives completely, but it is hard to just pick a day and say "nope, you can't do anything on Sat/Sun". In an effort to keep things under control, we only allow one activity at a time. If S is doing baseball, no scouts, etc..

I am sorry you have to have surgery but hopefully this means they actually know what the problem is now and they can fix it?! Good luck

Fully agree with lovethehub, when you have kids, whether separated or in a good marriage, these issues come up all the time.

Good luck with the surgery F.

LTH,
Once again � THANKS! I keep stating that and the meaning of it keeps rising!

Originally Posted By: LTH

F, try not to be too rigid

I am trying but let me paint the picture!

3 children in three different classes means more than one birthday a week.
S10 plays football Monday, Thursday, Friday and then match Saturday and/or Sunday.
D6 is GS wedneysday and one day some weekends
D4 will properly start gym in a short while. One weekday and every other weekend.

I want my children to know each other out of a car � and I want to know them.
I have S10 from Friday afternoon to Wednesday morning every two weeks and some Tuesdays. I have Ds Wednesday afternoon until Monday morning.
You 2x4 me on this one earlier on and you was right in doing this! Since then I have been thinking and calculating. If I go with all birthdays and sports (now and to come) they simply wont see eachother. You have to take in to calculation that S10 is living 45 min away and so is soccer and birthdays. Ds is 15 min away.
Scouting Wednesday is from 17.00-18.30.
Soccer normally ends at 19.00
My normal working hours are 8.15-16.00 (45 min tranport in both end have to be added)
I also would like for them to bring a friend here once in a while.
Also add them visiting friends.

I am having a hard time on this one � I want to do good for my children, I wan't them to have friends and do sports, I want them to know eachother and I want to spend time with them!
This will get harder when all of them joins something and their social life expands! My family is gone and I haven�t got any help around.

I am not trying to be punitive or inflexible (and I am not sobbing allthough it sounds like that) - I properly just want it all and now I have to do some prioritizing. I simply can�t do it all, keep regular eating times, get D4 into bed at a reasonable hour and so on. I do hope you understand.

Originally Posted By: LTH

F, I can't help but think that your with/without time is very long. Is this the norm in your country?

Nope, norm is much worse! H: every other weekend (Friday � Sunday) W: the rest! � Crazy, but true.
I will work on seeing one of Ds alone some days and I believe W will see this as good. I just need a few weeks then I will ask her about this.

Originally Posted By: LTH

Is 50/50 each week an option?

Not at the moment! I will any day of the week lose trial!

Originally Posted By: LTH

I can understand your concern on not having any "family" time with D's. Sandi is right, this is your family now. Yes, there are times where parents will spend bdays and major holidays together for the kids, and that is great. What Sandi is trying to help you with is the fact that your W wants this family time regularly to ease the consequences of her actions. If she gets all of this family time, she will be less likely to miss you. Christmas is a long way off in DBland, maybe by then it will be okay to spend some time together that day.

I get this totally! I will meet up on Bdays in the mornings but only W, children and I. Likewise the other way around. Bdays is not until spring so let�s wait and see. I will wait deciding on Christmas until then � I have all 3 this year and I will look for a nice place to spend the evening. We celebrate Christmas in the evening on the 24.

Originally Posted By: LTH

I have done this but I feel good reading that this is OK! � Thanks!
I am getting there, LTH!

One question:
Was is you writing about how your happy posting on FB tricked something in your H. I did post 2 things on FB yesterday and got a lot of likes and comments. I have never done this before but I am thinking about being more active on FB but this seems to go opposite of all I read in here.

All the best!

F

Wow F, that is a whole lot of kid stuff time. I really don't have much of an answer. Have you/ could you discuss this with the kids altogether and see what they have to say?

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