No more games- suckerpunch - DivorceBusting.com

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"There is nothing in it for me, and I think the honorable thought would be lost. Why bother."

Pretend I wrote this, what would you say to me?

I think I know where you're going with that, LA.....but, let me rephrase.....there is "nothing I will personally get out of it"....in other words, it doesn't mean much to me either way. By saying "this day is worth remembering" won't give me a feeling of satisfaction or a sense of honor. I hope that makes sense.

So...what would you say to me?

You changed the question to what you wanted to respond to.

You had more than a couple of posts wondering what to do about the anniversary, you said So I am more and more torn about the anniversary.

I'm not trying to beat you up, I'd just like you to be honest with yourself. My anniversary meant something to me, there's no crime in that. I was sad when it came and went without fanfare but I got over it. I've chosen to let it pass without mentioning it. I can remember it on my own but it's not a day of celebration for us as a couple.

The honorable things are what we do without expecting personal gain, the good we do when no one is looking because that's who we are.

Who do you really want to be, sp?

If after thinking about this you don't think any formal acknowledgment is called for, that's legit. The honorable thing is not to send a card or whatever because a critical mass of voices here agreed on that, it's to do what is right for you. Which may be nothing.

Originally Posted By: labug

So...what would you say to me?

You changed the question to what you wanted to respond to.

You had more than a couple of posts wondering what to do about the anniversary, you said So I am more and more torn about the anniversary.

I'm not trying to beat you up, I'd just like you to be honest with yourself. My anniversary meant something to me, there's no crime in that. I was sad when it came and went without fanfare but I got over it. I've chosen to let it pass without mentioning it. I can remember it on my own but it's not a day of celebration for us as a couple.

The honorable things are what we do without expecting personal gain, the good we do when no one is looking because that's who we are.

Who do you really want to be, sp?

I wish to be a someone that only a fool would leave. I wish to be a husband and a father, under the same roof. I wish to feel whole again. With that said, I would think you were saying that because you were doing it for a reason, with expectations I suppose. I don't know. I am still just SOOOO confused about HOW I am supposed to act. I don't even know what to do anymore and it's killing me. It's like I am lost, trying to find myself and improve....and I don't know how to do it.

Suckerpunch, you summed it up pretty well. We are confused, we don't know what to do anymore and it does kill us. One of the questions in another book by MWD asks what you would do if your wish came true when you woke up. My wish would be to have my W back, but boy, that would also be very scary how to handle her back again, to relearn everything about her again, to also worry about everything I did or didn't do.
Yes, I and you, can work on ourselves for the better, but there is still a lot of unknown out there, and that is scary and makes us feel lost at times.

You're not going to be judged and held accountable on the basis of one decision: what you did or didn't do about this year's anniversary. That is one tiny seedline in a vast forest of seriously broken marriage. You can take care of it perfectly or do nothing about it. It's worth only as much attention as it's worth.

Whether you bought a card or flowers or composed a thoughtful message is such a small thing next to...
Whether you have behaved with love and dignity through this,
Whether you have worked on the flaws you discovered in yourself through this,
Whether you have accepted that W has a right to her own feelings and whether you have heard and understood them,
Whether you have given her all the space she asked for and more,
Whether you have kept the road home paved,
and so on

Our wedding anniversaries are really beside the point at this time, and the person trying to undo the marriage would be seriously crazy to hold it against you if you don't send a celebratory card.

I think the small picture makes me feel crazy (he did THIS should I do THAT...I spent days trying to figure out whether to get a room of my own on a specific trip H planned, or stay in their room, or not go, and none of that really affected anything. I ended up doing what was best for me and was very glad.) and the big picture allows me to feel more centered. In the very long slow process that this is, I hold my head up that I haven't been one of those who threw fits, cried, said things I couldn't take back, shamed him. I have tried very hard to give him all kinds of space and keep my mind focused on being a good person and a good mother, finding fun and joy where I can in my life. Let him spin, I'm not.

It's way easier to see this in someone else's sitch and think yes but THIS problem I'm having TODAY is really more devastating and important. It's not. Maybe reframe things by imagining you're advising someone else.

Hang in there.

Thanks, Advina and Hotwheels.

It makes sense that something like this isn't the biggest deal in the world. I doubt it will be a deal changer to anything, especially something that no longer really exists (the marriage). However, remembering our anniversary was an issue last year, I recall. I waited too long before ordering a gift for wife and it wasn't here in time. I remember she was hurt by that. She was also hurt that I didn't make dinner plans. I consulted her about dinner, because I figured it was OUR anniversary, and she didn't like that for some reason or other. I guess, (...mind reading) that she wanted me to have a gift, make the plans and follow through, even though that should not have been MY job. I guess we were just different in that way. With that said, there is nothing I can do to fix the past. This is where we are now. It is an unfortunate place. I still don't get why or how we ended up here, but here we are. It has been over 8 mo. and I don't see any hope for our marriage in the future. She is just gaining distance from me, while I am wasting time worrying if she will ever come back. She probably won't. For all intents and purposes, she is already gone. She has been since day 1. She hasn't checked back in or looked over her shoulder ONCE she the day she left. I realize that on so many levels, but it just hasn't sunk in to my heart. I mean here I am at 4:30am AGAIN, unable to sleep, unable to stop thinking about my failed marriage. I just can't let go, no matter how hard I try. And, at this point, I really REALLY want to let go. I honestly do. I wish I could just put it all behind me and move on, but I can't. It is so frusturating. I keep having thoughts about how I can force a conclusion, which is stupid...but I keep thinking about it. I just can't deal with seeing her moving on with her life and treating me and our marriage as if it was "just a thing", no big deal. We no longer talk. We no longer interact with each other. Daugther is obviously still confused and hurting to some degree or other. Now she has a new "guy friend" of her moms and a whole new circle of people to be with. It has to be confusing to her. Plus, W and I haven't been in the same room with each other for more than 3 minutes, in Months. How can I keep holding onto some thing that isn't even there? WHAT is holding me in this pattern? I just want the hurt, the confusion, the pain to stop. How do I make that happen? I don't want this anymore!

Sorry....it's late (or early), and I am rambling. Just not a good night. Thanks for listening.

SP, ramble all you want. I still have moments when I wonder, what the he!!?

As Ad says, the small picture can make you crazy but I think for most of us it's a slow process to get from the minutiae to the 30,000 ft view. And most here are control freaks we tend to get caught up in the little details. I think we should all start out with one guideline: Unless your spouse is contacting you about making a serious attempt at reconciliation, never engage with them, ever!

You about a little who you wanted to be, expand that away from just roles you assume to the core of who you are. What are your values? What guides you in decisions you make every day?

SP, you sound frustrated and tired and we all get it. Your allowed to feel your feelings. This absolutely suxxx, no getting around it.

What can you do to release some of this energy? What plans and life goals do you have for YOU???

We are here for you, keep writing and getting those feelings off your chest. We don't mind.

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

I think I know where you're going with that, LA.....but, let me rephrase.....there is "nothing I will personally get out of it"....in other words, it doesn't mean much to me either way. By saying "this day is worth remembering" won't give me a feeling of satisfaction or a sense of honor. I hope that makes sense.

Good grief SP, to me it's worse b/c the self centered nature of your comment has been pointed out to you, but you don't care. It's still not sufficiently bothersome to you to correct.

Since you won't be seen as honorable for doing it, it's not worth it.

Which means you were never doing it BECAUSE it was the kind or honorable thing but b/c you wanted to be SEEN as honorable.

SIGH...

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

Thanks, Advina and Hotwheels.

It makes sense that something like this isn't the biggest deal in the world. I doubt it will be a deal changer to anything, especially something that no longer really exists (the marriage). However, remembering our anniversary was an issue last year, I recall. I waited too long before ordering a gift for wife and it wasn't here in time. I remember she was hurt by that. She was also hurt that I didn't make dinner plans.

You "remember" but...you did nothing about it?? She felt hurt but, hey, so what? You waited too long and at the last minute ordered something so it was not there in time. Hey, Your anniversary is the same date every year, right?

Did you actually forget or were you scorekeeping and wanting HER to do more for YOU? I mean, I don't see how you can defend this...but you are!

I consulted her about dinner, because I figured it was OUR anniversary, and she didn't like that for some reason or other. I guess, (...mind reading) that she wanted me to have a gift, make the plans and follow through, even though that should not have been MY job.

Wow...I'm nearly speechless.
You say you want to change but you write stuff like this and it's amazing to me that being a LOVING GIVING MAN is not your "job"...why not?

B/C it means she'll "win"?

The scorecard will have you giving more? Gee, if you insist on scorekeeping, why isn't that where you'd WANT "more points"?

Seems to me you want the score to be what YOU GET, and not what you give.

My brother in law just surprised my sister for their 20th anniversary with a weeklong trip to New England, checking off two places on her "bucket list".

He planned the whole thing and packed for her and got his parents to come and watch their youngest.

OMG! OH NO! I don't think SHE has done that for HIM...so next year, he better do nothing, and sulk, and that'll show her...

I guess we were just different in that way. With that said, there is nothing I can do to fix the past. This is where we are now. It is an unfortunate place.

how are you treating this time any differently? I mean, I can see why you'd do nothing for it, there ARE reasons... but it's not for the reasons YOU cited.

You are choosing to do nothing b/c you won't get credit for it. That means to me you are a lot like you were a year ago.

And the problem is that you still see nothing off base or selfish about your behavior in the past...I mean, do you see how you sound about last year?

"we're just different that way"...Um, yeah, she wanted you to show her love, and use the anniversary as a symbolic time for that.

But instead You showed her how low her happiness was on your priority list.

and you are completely unaware of anything about that which is Unloving. OR so you say.

You were measuring then, as you measure now.

I still don't get why or how we ended up here, but here we are.

Really SP? You don't see "why or how"? At all? Dig deeper

It has been over 8 mo. and I don't see any hope for our marriage in the future. She is just gaining distance from me, while I am wasting time worrying if she will ever come back. She probably won't. For all intents and purposes, she is already gone. She has been since day 1. She hasn't checked back in or looked over her shoulder ONCE she the day she left.

I call BS to that^^. At best it's mind reading negatively, again.

And it's a great excuse not to bother trying, although you CLAIM to want to be a better man. You WANT to be a man only a fool would leave....But if there is no reward for it, then "Why bother?" You are still Missing the point!

Your changes are evidently superficial and or, unreal. MY mind reading says, She sees that.

I realize that on so many levels, but it just hasn't sunk in to my heart. I mean here I am at 4:30am AGAIN, unable to sleep, unable to stop thinking about my failed marriage. I just can't let go, no matter how hard I try.

define "trying". How do you "try hard" to change? Or let go? What is it, that you are doing that indicates a NEW way of thinking or "trying"? Trying is much more than wishing.

And, at this point, I really REALLY want to let go. I honestly do. I wish I could just put it all behind me and move on, but I can't. It is so frusturating. I keep having thoughts about how I can force a conclusion, which is stupid...but I keep thinking about it.

IT's the thinking about "IT" and not YOU, & YOUR need for change,

and NOT doing anything differently, that keeps you stuck.

I just can't deal with seeing her moving on with her life and treating me and our marriage as if it was "just a thing", no big deal. We no longer talk.

Seeing her moving on is one thing, and that's all about your ego keeping score.

It's as If her being happy, takes something away FROM you.

So you must be the "loser" in the contest of life.

THAT is False negative thinking and it's going to stop you from real happiness every time. There will always be someone "ahead" of you if that is how you view life.

The pretense that she is treating the marriage "as no big deal" is all you negatively projecting again, & demonizing her, AND mind reading again.
How's that working for you?

My opinion is that she has been mourning the loss of this marriage AS IT WAS HAPPENING, (*you know, like on last year's anniversary...)

whereas you are mourning it now that it's ending.

We no longer interact with each other. Daugther is obviously still confused and hurting to some degree or other. Now she has a new "guy friend" of her moms and a whole new circle of people to be with. It has to be confusing to her. Plus, W and I haven't been in the same room with each other for more than 3 minutes, in Months. How can I keep holding onto some thing that isn't even there? WHAT is holding me in this pattern? I just want the hurt, the confusion, the pain to stop. How do I make that happen? I don't want this anymore!

Sorry....it's late (or early), and I am rambling. Just not a good night. Thanks for listening.

You know what to do. But you don't like it. You resist it mightily.

Your pride, selective memory, biased scorekeeping, and negative programming are so engrained, I don't see you being able to change this life pattern

without changing how you view things,

which means a major paradigm shift. I'd love to help you get there,

and that's all I got.

I don't have any long term goals at the moment. I can't think ahead more than the present, for the most part. I still have a hard time envisioning my life in the future or how that will even look.

When I reflect back 8 mo. ago, I realize that I wasn't happy in my relationship. That is not to say that I wasn't happy WITH my relationship. I love my wife with all my heart. Until BD, I didn't even realize to what extent or how deeply my love went. With that being said, I have always loved being a husband and a father. I love house and home. I love togetherness. I loved all of that. I was proud of my life.....but it needed work. I see that now.

Short term, I wish to be more active in "fun" activities. Wife constantly complained about my reluctance to do fun stuff, to go out, to party, to vacation. To be honest, her perspective is a little off base because we DID do a lot of fun stuff, about as much as the average couple. However, she always wanted more, where as I was becoming more and more inclined to focus on our home and our work. I thought I was just becoming more responsible, but I see now that I do need to be more involved in the fun stuff on a daily basis. I need to learn how to enjoy myself more and socialize. I need to get out there. Wife would have KILLED to have me say that in years past. Now, here I am becoming the man she always wanted, not for her, but for myself. I haven't lost focus on WHO I am DBing for. However, it does pain me to know that she is no longer a party to the marriage and will probably never be able to enjoy it with me. It makes me sad. Actually, it breaks my heart. You all know that pain...of course you do, or we wouldn't be here.

As far as who I want to be, I think I was that guy. Well, pretty close. I needed a little fine tuning (as you all know), but I really liked who I was, or at least how I was living. I had a beautiful wife, wonderful daughter, people who I thought cared about me, our home is gorgous, we had great friends, plenty of free time. What wasn't to like about that aspect. Granted, I would have liked to have had better communication in my marriage and been more skilled at expressing love and compassion. I am getting there. I still need lots of work, but I am fairly close (personally) to who I really wish to be. Well, I really need to lose a few pounds, but for the most part it is everything around me that seems to be going sideways. That is what I don't like. I just don't know how to change it. On one hand I can't see ever letting go of my love for my wife. At the same time, I try to picture moving on with someone else. I just CAN'T see it. How would I ever be able to fully give myself to someone else whe I have this huge part of my heart that already belongs to wife? I know it happens and it probably will for me too. I hate being alone, and I hate being in this limbo. Wife has moved forward with exacting plans on how she wanted this to work. She knew exactly how she wanted to go. She went after it, and she is moving on. I wish I could do the same...somehow... with her or without her. I just can't. It's been 8 months, and I can still cry about it today, actual tears. When does that stop? How do you ever make that go away? Those are the things I am struggling with. Just when I feel like I am starting to turn a corner, BAM, I am right back at square one. That is where I am today. It is so frusturating!

25,

just to clear up a few things:

I was searching for a great gift for weeks prior to our anniversary. I ordered it, in what I thought, was well in advance. It showed up several days late. True, I could have been looking and ordering much much farther in advance, but it was not something I intentionally did wrong or was neglegent in. It happened. It sucked. I own it.

In regards to making all of the plans, I felt I was being a loving caring husband. I thought by INCLUDING my wife in the plan making, it would allow her to chose a portion of how we celebrated. perhaps I was wrong, but I still don't understand HOW? I mean is it honestly more loving and caring to make plans without the consideration or input from your spouse? Explain that to me.

As far as me seeking "credit" for this upcoming anniversary, that has never been my goal either. The way I am looking at it is, if she is involved in other activities, with other people and does not wish to engage me, then why would I suspect she wants a anniversary message from ME? I am not mind reading. That is literally the path she has taken. She has completely shut me out and distanced herself socially and personally towards me. She has verbalized it, 25. I thought maybe I was being "loving and caring" by simply letting her go live her life and not bother her with MY feelings or expressions. You see it differently and you mind read yourself and paint this picture. That's not fair!

In regards to me not understanding how we got here with our marriage, you took it out of context. I KNOW we had problems. I have admitted them. I have owned them. I know I wasn't perfect, nor was she. We didn't have the "ultimate marriage", of course we didn't. However, the extent our problems were, at least to me, reconcilable. I cannot understand how our lives together ended on such a note with so little effort. Personally, (and actually my counselor, pastor, friends, family and even my attorney) feel that our issues were 100% completely fixable. Our MC quoted this during our initial visit; "you two only have micro movements to make in order to get back on track". Our issues should not have been a death sentence to a 12 year realtionship with a 6 year old child. THAT is what I have a hard time understanding. That is what I have a hard time accepting.

What am I doing wrong 25? I really want to know. I mean I am working on the issues that I "think" I need to work on, but you keep pointing out that I am not getting there. You keep saying that I haven't changed, or my changes aren't true or that they are superficial. Trust me, that is NOT what I want to work towards. I just don't know how to act, I guess. I feel differently. I process differently. I know that for sure. I feel like I am becoming a better person. BUT, how do I become a husband only a fool would leave? How do I express that? How do I make that part of a relationship that is no longer open to me? I am giving my wife space. I am not lashing out on emotion. I am not judging her or trying to manipulate her. I am upbeat and friendly. I am readily helpful when asked. I don't argue. I am more active socially. These are all of the 180's she has complained about. So what else do I need to work on? Seeing things in a negative light is something I know needs attention. I am focusing on that, but what else? What am I doing so wrong?

How EXACTLY should I be dealing with this anniversary? I asked the question because I didn't know. I got answers from both sides of the spectrum, from "do nothing" to give "flowers". I was also told to do what I think is right. I really thought about it, and well I don't know what it right. That is why I asked. TBH, I think just me asking for input about such a thing is somewhat loving and caring. I obviously care. I want to do what is best for all parties involved. I just obviously don't know what is right or I wouldn't be on Divorce busters trying to figure my life out in the first place. I am just confused.

Hi,
It is difficult to get exact answers, not knowing all the details of the realtionship and even then, it would be extremely beneficial to have professional guidance. If you aren't working with a DB coach, then I highly suggest you do. You then have someone in your court, guiding you as to what to say and do that is most likely to bring her closer. When you let your coach what kind of response you then get, they help you fine tune your approach. I would be happy to talk to you further. Take good care.

Thanks karen, I have spoke with Chuck several times. During out last 2 conversations, he didn't have much for me other than to stay the course towards friendhsip.....that fizzled.

I have been biting my tongue about something for a while with wife. Today when I picked up daughter I let it out. I asked her why she hasn't told me she was dating. This is something we discussed being very open about, previously. She said she saw no reason for telling me. I said that was fine and I understood her reasoning. I validated her and gave her some words of affirmation by saying "any guy in the world would be happy to have you on his arm. make sure you choose the very best. you deserve it".

From that point it got shakey via text. She asked how I knew, and it opned up a small can of worms...or maybe it didn't. I don't know. I told her I knew from a friend of ours telling me, the same friend that set them up and lied to me that she didn't. This is the same friend from my previous posts that is a compulsive liar and sneak. I keep calling her friend, but she is no friend of mine. She has however become W's new BFF. I told wife to just be guarded around her and that she hasn't changed her spots, which she hasn't. She has thrown wife under the bus on several occasions, even flaking out on our wedding (she was supposed to be a bridesmaid).

Now, this is probably a conversation I SHOULD have avoided, but I had it. I don't have regrets about it. It's the truth. I ended by telling wife "I wasn't trying to pry. It's no big deal. I want you to be happy with whoever you choose to be with. I really and truly do. I wish I would have realized how you deserve to be treated when I had the chance". We closed shortly after with talk about the house and her saying, thank you.

Not sure what to make of that, but I honestly feel I need to get my feet back under me in regards to walking on egg shells. I just feel so uncomfortable around wife now, and I hate it.

SP

I will write more when I get a chance. I would not worry so much about the conversation with your wife.

It's over now and you did it and that's that. But If you keep calling that "Friend", who is at best a drama queen interloper, at worst -worse...then

you're a little too nutty for your own good. Stop the masochism.

More later. Hang in there.

Oh no 25, I don't speak with that woman ANYMORE! I cut all ties with her after she informed me of this, and I found out she was playing both sides of the fence against each other. Yep, she is THAT kind of horrible. No masochism with me. I have just been holstering the knowledge that wife is dating. I was giving her plenty of time to mention it, and she never has. Therefore I brought it up to remind her that we promised each other that we would be upfront about anyone we were dating that involved daughter.

Today my spirits are a little better, still didn't get much sleep lastnight.

I have some decent GAL plans for the weekend, but I am starting to relaize that I need to branch out much more. I am staying in my circle of friends and keeping busy with good solid activities, but I am not meeting anyone new, at least not lately. I need to change that. I feel that I really need to figure out my healing process more, so I can start to really move forward WITHOUT wife. I have been focusing on making changes to myself, staying active, being with daughter, taking care of house...but I haven't done anything to move forward with my life. Now, I just have to figure out what that is and go after it.....what does it even mean, to move forward?...haha

So brainstorm, what new thing might you like to try? Group setting gets bonus points?

SP,

We are in similar places. My goal this summer is to heal and move forward w my life. I'm not sure if I have any advice to you, but new GALs w meeting new friends sounds good.

I am taking a trip w my SIL to the mountains. I hope to find a deeper connection w God, push myself forward (whatever that means), and find peace to start/further healing.

Can you do a little get-away for yourself? It doesn't matter-- it's just about finding yourself and to move on YOUR path.

Good luck!

Well,

I moved a roomate into the house tonight. An old friend that I haven't been in contact with in countless years. He is recently out of a relationship and seems to be heading towards making a new life with himself. He also just started seeing someone, so I am sure I will start meeting new people soon or at least reconnecting with old friends.

As far as GAL things I can do in group settings, I have fallen off of going to church. I really need to get back into that groove. I think that would be a positive for me, even though I don't do a lot of engaging new people at church. Perhaps I should focus more on that.

My business is really going to gear up soon, being that it is summer. That will keep me very busy, so busy that I worry that I will do nothing but work all summer. Then, when fall hits, I will be very depressed. That is something I have worried about, as I can almost visualize that happening. I need to circumvent that and be active in social circles prior to summer coming to an end.

I am also very worried about how awkward it will be with wife still living here, and now openly dating. I will see her more and more as each day goes by, and I am working on the property. Not real excited about that, but I suppose it would allow her to see some of my changes more closely. Just not sure how to feel about it, at this point.

Just throwing some things out there....life is surely going to be different. It's scary to me.

It's scary to me.

Don't have time to post a lot but this is probably the most honest you've been about your feelings. That's a good think. Now think about how scary this is compared to other things in life.

Start getting into things now and you won't have to worry about the fall. And don't worry about it now, (I know, you're a worrier) Don't borrow trouble. Don't choose activities that go against your personality)if you're an introvert don't do things that involve 50 people, because you won't keep it up.

Ya, I have admitted to myself a LONG time ago that I am scared....that's not a new thing.

As far as GAL and moving forward with my life, I am just at a roadblock. First and foremost, I need to work at my business. I have been catching a LOT of flack for not being as involved as I should be lately, and it is starting to hurt the daily function. My brother and sister have REALLY been picking up the slack. I have been writting off getting involved and making decisions to the fact that I am still upset about my collapsed marriage, and I need to just focus on myself right now. I also realize I have been using that mentality as a crutch for self pity a little as well. I have been selfish in that regard. I need to get back in the game, so to say. The catcher is, once I jump back in and fill my position, my time will be spoken for. We typically go long days, 7 days a week during our season. It doesn't leave much time for self. That has been one of wifes gripes over the years. However, our season only last about 2-3 months....

I have a good group of friends coming down this weekend. It should be fun, campfires, socializing, bike rides, that sort of thing. However, it is my same old group of friends. I can't help it. I love them and like spending time together, so that makes it even harder for me to branch out and meet new people. And here is the thing I struggle with, I already have a great network of friends. I mean everybody can use a new friend, but isn't "moving on" really about meeting new romantic interests? I mean I meet new people constantly in my line of work, some I connect with others I don't. It is usually very very casual aquintances. That fills a space, but is that what is considered "moving on", just filling my time with new couples or new buddies, or is it really about meeting a new woman? I have friends telling me contantly, that I need to start dating. To be honest, I am not totally against that. I just don't have a clue in the world who I would date, or if I am even well enough to start looking for that. Perhaps it would help my healing. I don't know......I am still just spinning on where I am headed, frusturated, scared, still confused about marriage collapsing, just not happy about much. Perhaps it is my negative mindset, but I am trying to fill every moment with things that are positive as I can be, but still....ugh!

Moving (on) *forward* means being a whole independent person having a fulfilling life with or without your W. Making plans, being interesting, knowing people who don't know you as that poor guy who got sc@wed over by his W or some other variant of that.

If you would consider dating (a) because your friends tell you constantly and you don't stand up to them for what you feel and need or (b) to "help you heal" or (c) while you are totally against it or (d) for any reason whatsoever connected to your previous relationship, don't do it. Those are terrible reasons to date. It seems like you know you're not ready and you question your own judgment on that, why? It sounds like you need to spend more time getting to know who you are irregardless of and independent of W, as long as it takes.

Hang in there...

Originally Posted By: adinva

Moving (on) *forward* means being a whole independent person having a fulfilling life with or without your W. Making plans, being interesting,

I am independant, have been for 8 months, longer really, if you consider the time leading up to BD. I can take care of myself and make it through any obstacle I encounter, with the exception of getting over losing my W. I think my co-dependancy is minimal if any, at this point. I am making plans. I am doing a lot of activity, probably more today than in the past few years. I have never NOT been interesting. I am borderline on being the Dos XX's guy....haha

I am "fullfilled" in my life as a father, as a business owner, as a friend. I am fullfilled with the relationships I have and the things that I do, with one exception. I simply miss having someone to share it with, namely my wife. But perhaps I am only holding on to W, because I don't know anyone different. Maybe I have tunnel vision? I just don't know.

Originally Posted By: adinva

knowing people who don't know you as that poor guy who got sc@wed over by his W or some other variant of that.

I am lacking in this aspect. EVERYONE I know more than likely sees me this way, but at the same time I am not willing to replace my network of friends and family. I don't know how to change this. I don't know if it will ever change. I don't know if it really matters.

Originally Posted By: adinva

If you would consider dating (a) because your friends tell you constantly and you don't stand up to them for what you feel and need or (b) to "help you heal" or (c) while you are totally against it or (d) for any reason whatsoever connected to your previous relationship, don't do it. Those are terrible reasons to date. It seems like you know you're not ready and you question your own judgment on that, why?

I wouldn't date for ANY of those reasons. I do however find myself wanting someone to share time with, more and more every day. I am starting to have those idol thoughts about, " might be nice to date". I think my friends are seeing or feeling this too, and that is why they mention it. Perhaps I am at that point. I don't know. When do you know it's the right time? Do the romantic feelings for my wife need to be gone? I don't think that is every going to happen soon, probably ever, but at the same time I don't want to live my life alone. So, when does a person know when it's time to start jumping back in to the dating pool?

Originally Posted By: adinva

It sounds like you need to spend more time getting to know who you are irregardless of and independent of W, as long as it takes.

Hang in there...

I hear this kind of introspective advice a lot, and it gets lost on me. I am not sure if I am just not that in touch with my feelings and emotions, or if I am just a "man's man" or why. But, I don't get it. I feel that I already know who I am. I already know where I am going. I have zero plans to change my life completely in regards to where I live, how I work, who I socialize with. What is left to find? What sort of things am I supposed to be looking for? What kind of insight to my self do I need to find? If it has anything to do with self improvement, I get that. I am all in. I want to be a better person, better father, better spouse. I still need to work on it, but that is one thing I have FOUND. I would like some more input on this. I fear that maybe I am missing a large piece of introspect that I just don't get.

Idk everything i said was based on your previous post so it seemed to me like it might b helpful but every point you either said you were flat out not going to do it, didnt mean what i thought you wrote, dont know if you will ever b able to do it, dont think its worth doing, or dont think men do it. I have nothing to work with!

So date if you want to date. Perhaps after a few you will be ready. Idk.

I agree with Ad, especially that you often write things and then come back and say you didn't mean what you wrote. Maybe we misinterpret a lot or you don't communicate your thoughts clearly, could be a little of both.

You say in several posts that you love your W, that would mean to most people that you're not ready to date. There are 2 people involved in a dating R and while it might be a distraction and an exercise in "moving on" the other person could be hurt by that. I wouldn't want to date someone if I knew the motive was "I'm using you to get over my XW."

You asked for input on how to handle the anniversary and seemed confused when you got varying responses. That's the beauty of input, mulling over choices, getting ideas you may not have thought of, making a decision based on your values.

You posted I hear this kind of introspective advice a lot, and it gets lost on me. I am not sure if I am just not that in touch with my feelings and emotions, or if I am just a "man's man" or why. But, I don't get it. I feel that I already know who I am. I already know where I am going. I have zero plans to change my life completely in regards to where I live, how I work, who I socialize with. What is left to find? What sort of things am I supposed to be looking for? What kind of insight to my self do I need to find? If it has anything to do with self improvement, I get that. I am all in. I want to be a better person, better father, better spouse. I still need to work on it, but that is one thing I have FOUND. I would like some more input on this. I fear that maybe I am missing a large piece of introspect that I just don't get.

If you go back and read some of your posts notice how most of what you think makes you is external stuff-house, job, gorgeous wife, beautiful house...

Those things can all go away very quickly, what you're left with is you and I don't think you know who that is. No one can give you introspection, it's something you have to do on your own, and it's hard work. I've brought up values a few times and who you want to be, who you want to show the world. Your response: As far as who I want to be, I think I was that guy.

Really?

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

Ya, I have admitted to myself a LONG time ago that I am scared....that's not a new thing.

As far as GAL and moving forward with my life, I am just at a roadblock. First and foremost, I need to work at my business. I have been catching a LOT of flack for not being as involved as I should be lately, and it is starting to hurt the daily function.

If you need to suck it up at work, do so.

But that is NOT GAL, which I assume you know

My brother and sister have REALLY been picking up the slack. I have been writting off getting involved and making decisions to the fact that I am still upset about my collapsed marriage, and I need to just focus on myself right now. I also realize I have been using that mentality as a crutch for self pity a little as well. I have been selfish in that regard. I need to get back in the game, so to say. The catcher is, once I jump back in and fill my position, my time will be spoken for. We typically go long days, 7 days a week during our season. It doesn't leave much time for self. That has been one of wifes gripes over the years. However, our season only last about 2-3 months....

some good insights. And the one advantage of your w being gone, is that the schedule no longer matters. Accept the upside, however small, that the situation provides. It's part of beginning to look at things better and not always seeing the glass half empty.

To me that is your underlying block to happiness and being as loving as you can be....or at least one big part of it.

I have a good group of friends coming down this weekend. It should be fun, campfires, socializing, bike rides, that sort of thing. However, it is my same old group of friends. I can't help it. I love them and like spending time together, so that makes it even harder for me to branch out and meet new people.

So you think it'd be easier to meet new people if you hated your friends? Stop acting as if having good friends prevents you or hinders you in any way. It's a GIFT!

So Take a class or join something, a club, an organization or even a church or team, WITH one of those friends. Surely one of them is interested in learning or doing something new?

You don't have to go solo. In fact, I'd argue that 90% of GAL ought NOT to be solo.

And here is the thing I struggle with, I already have a great network of friends. I mean everybody can use a new friend, but isn't "moving on" really about meeting new romantic interests?

NO...NO...NO....it's NOT! Goodness gracious no it's not.

LATER on down the road it MIGHT be but it is NOT in the "definition". It means GAL and moving forward in your life with the expecations that your wife won't be in it (outside of parenting) and yet you are happy.

Does that REQUIRE you to be with OW? Interesting...I mean, why can't you be happy for some amount of time, without a woman on your arm?

What's that about?

I mean I meet new people constantly in my line of work, some I connect with others I don't. It is usually very very casual aquintances. That fills a space, but is that what is considered "moving on", just filling my time with new couples or new buddies, or is it really about meeting a new woman?

Neither...didn't I post to you about the GAL things I did? I'm pretty sure I did but you blew it off. Not "just filling my time" OR "meeting a new woman"....wow that is pathetic.

GAL is something you do NOT understand yet SP...truly you must get this concept or DBing will elude you forever.

I GAL the heck out of life...and I maintain some of the things I began then.

I Joined a writer's group, (first time) I auditioned for community theater and the university's theater shows and I soon got roles and that introduced me to fun NEW people. I did stand up comedy,(very therapeutic and FUN) And I get paid to do it now. Not full time or ready to stop my day job, but it feels great and it pays great (by the minute that is...but it's not like you are doing it 40 hours a week).

and I took classes including a pottery class, (very weird but good for me) a Foreign language class and a cooking class. Mostly interesting and always met new people and made at least one new hanging out person who did NOT know my sitch. So relaxing.

I learned to cross country ski, target shoot, deep sea fish, and hunt.

I volunteered at a women's shelter and definitely felt more grateful for MY life.

I coached two girl's teams, I edited a hunting book (really different for me) and I did this for stimulation in a new way AND so I could have some serious fun.

When I joined the Officer's Wives club (first time in 17 years of active duty, plus I myself had been in the service so it always seemed boring to me to join, but I had never gone)...AND there, in Alaska, I made two new, life long friends who saved my sanity...

I worked out and used a tanning booth in the winter, saw a T, looked good if I say so myself.. I found a great church I got A LOT of spiritual help from.

There's more that I did that I am now forgetting but this was about meeting new people and doing/learning new things, improving as a person, being more well rounded, taking up new hobbies and projects...NOT DATING or seeking out OMs... Can you see how different that was?

It was about me being on my own WITHOUT needing my h OR any man in my life, to feel good about myself.

It was about me being really happy with my new/old friends and doing new things, and seeing myself in new ways.

Your old friends know the old you.

Meet some new people with the idea of learning new behaviors and new ways of thinking and seeing things. Meet positive happy centered folks...

Get off the "when do I get a WOMAN?!!" theme.

Honestly SP, it's really needy sounding, and you are nowhere near ready for a mature R at this point. NO OFFENSE, okay?

but, isn't that obvious to you?

I have friends telling me contantly, that I need to start dating.

Really? "Constantly telling you to date"? How odd...a guy not yet divorced and wishing he could reconcile with his wife and start over,

"needs" to start dating...good grief, are these guys all in their twenties? Do they have children?

Are These are the same friends who know the old SP? So that's what they expect from that guy...

WE here, want to encourage you to be the new best YOU that you can be....
and you have real work to do before you can be in a healthy r.

You need to GAL to learn about you. B/C there are behavioral patterns you engage in which PREVENT and hinder your happiness, your attitude towards life and how you treat the woman in your life.

So no, you do NOT NEED to start dating anytime soon. As a woman, I have to say that

none of us would talk like that at this stage...we all "get" that we need to be on our own, "alone" with our family and friends, old AND NEW and discover what and who we want to become.

WE DIG DEEP and you just can't do that while you are on the prowl...I think that's why women seem to heal faster. Most of them sound genuinely happier a few years after their divorce and so do a lot of men...but I think I read some empirical data that says women LBSers tend to reach out more and delay dating
until they have become the best people they can become,
and they seem happier over all, than men who were the LBSers.

No offfense but I think those friends of yours are EITHER not very mature

OR they oversimplify what it'll take for you to be happy again.

They don't want to see you in pain so they suggest you "get back on the horse again!"

Div Remedy discusses this phenomenon a lot. You have to ignore that "Constant" advice. Seriously.

Perhaps you are talking about your w or being lonely so much they don't know what else to say?

Stop the negative thinking and maybe they won't keep harping on it. Just a thought.

To be honest, I am not totally against that. I just don't have a clue in the world who I would date, or if I am even well enough to start looking for that.

Want to guess what I believe??

Perhaps it would help my healing. I don't know.

SIGH...I DON'T SEE HOW it could possibly help you "heal" unless you think you'll suddenly meet MRS RIGHT

in which case, since you are not really truly the new man you want to be, won't you just be here again, with w#2?

I cannot see it "healing" you when you are not ready to have a healthy R, and you are not.

it would be using an OW, imo, and it would not benefit you much. You'll compare her to W and you will STOP the work you are doing on yourself (work I hope you are doing). You will think "no need to now, I have NEW Woman in my life...all is perfect now..."

but it won't be, will it? You will still have your "glass is half empty" problem, and the "like to be right" and the rest of the stuff that got you here.

I would imagine you'd find flaws with the new woman within 6 months...flaws you would share with her...

sorry man but no you are not ready. Ask me in a year. Yeah, a year.

My sister waited a full year FROM the day of the divorce...and the guy who had asked her out "too early" waited til the exact day it had been a year (she had said "call me in a year and we'll see, b/c I am trying to heal"...)

and he did call her on that very day. They've been happily married now 11 years.

.....I am still just spinning on where I am headed, frusturated, scared, still confused about marriage collapsing, just not happy about much.

well aside from how FUN you sound...dating seems to be the last thing you ought to be doing buddy

Perhaps it is my negative mindset, but I am trying to fill every moment with things that are positive as I can be, but still....ugh!

Filling your life with positives is GOOD....Keep doing that. And hang with positive people too. Study them, emulate them in your own individual way.

Thank you all for your input. I appreciate it.

I would like to give you a little breakdown on my past realtionship history. First and foremost, there wasn't much. I dated here and there since highschool, but never EVER connected like I did with wife. My wife was litterally my first true love. I never had a long term relationship, prior to wife. I am not that guy who always has to have a girl on his arm, actually quite the opposite. I spent the majority of my life being very single. Along with that, I never really learned how to heal from a breakup, pretty much because I had very few and they were never SERIOUS relationships in the first place. Maybe that is where some of my confusion about wife dating and moving on comes from. Tonight, she left daughter with a babysitter allll night so she could go out with OM. I am just so much more committed than that. It seems weird to me that she, or I, could even interact with another person in a romantic way this soon after our breakup...or are we even broken up? I don't know. It feels like wife is DONE and GONE. That leaves me to deal with finding my way forward. That is why I asked if maybe I was doing it wrong. I have never called upon these feelings to "move on" before. I am a complete rookie in this arena. I know in my heart that I would like wife back, at least I think I do. I also know, or at least feel, that she isn't coming back. So, I wasn't sure how I needed to progress in kick starting my healing process. I really do feel stuck in many regards. I thought perhaps that would change my mindset of have some pyschological impact on getting me moving towards working on a new life or relationship. It was just a question that I wanted some advice with. I now realize that my gut feelings, are telling me that NO, this isn't a good idea. Therefore, I won't consider it until I feel like it is truly something I wish to pursue.

I am really going to focus on NEW GAL activities. 25, those were some great examples. I do need to grow myself in more ways. I am going to try. I am have been feeling that I need support moreso than anything. I guess I actually need to get distracted with new things to pull my mind away from my sitch. ...I'm on it!

So, I am really struggling with detachment.

This weekend, wife was present at our business, for a bit. She spent time with friends and family, who apparently didn't sugar coat their feelings with her. She was told that they did not aprove of her dating, of her continuing to stay under a roof that I am providing, that she leave daughter with a sitter while she went out to invent her new life or that she was expecting a payoff for her decision to leave the marriage. That is some pretty hard tough talk, and wife was feeling sad about it. She posted some pity party stuff on her Facebook. For the first time, in a long time, I really didn't care all that much. I felt like, "screw her. I hope she finds happiness, but I can't worry about if she does or if she doesn't. I felt almost indifferent about it. Then, this happened....

Wife left our daughter saturday afternoon, for the remainder of the night. She left her with an absolute DRUNK who stays at our business during the summer months. During her time with this "sitter", she was exposed to exxcessive drinking, left to the supervision of an 11 YO. boy and allowed to stay up very late into the night playing. In all reality, daughter probably had a blast. Still, it didn't settle well with me. I was present and perfectly capable of watching her. Wife didn't ask.

The next day, Father's Day, wife asked if she could take daughter to see her grandfather for a going away party. I agreed, but I was also hurt that I was not asked to attend. I really admired this man and feel that we have a great connection. It just hurt being reminded that I was no longer part of the family. As always, my hurt turned to anger, which was increased by the lack or follow through on wifes part. I beleive wife stayed out all night with OM the previous night. So, she did not bring daughter to see me before going to he grandfathers party. I was okay with that. Our agreement was she would have daugther between 1-4. Around 4:30 she texted asking if she could bring daguther to see me 6pm because she was having a good time and wanted to stay longer. I reluctantly agreed. Remember, this is on Father
s Day...MY DAY! So, at almost 7PM wife shows up with daughter. She hadn't eaten, she was dirty, my quality time was going to amount to finding her some dinner and getting her ready for bed, GREAT! Needless to say, I had a hard time being detached. I was mad, I was angry, I was hurt. When wife showed up at the door, ready to go out (mind reading, but more than likely with OM) I felt so taken advantage of and disrespected. Wife didn't say sorry, she didn't say happy fathers day, she didn't say she appreciated my felxibility, nothing. Therefore I had very few words, really biting my tongue because I knew that I had to act as if. Other than being a little stand offish and distant, I think I did okay. I avoided any conflict, at least. Wife texted later saying "oh I forgot, happy Fathers day". I was able to make the best of the evening with the time I had with daughter. Today, I am just hurt thinking about it.

Pretty much just summed up EXACTLY how I feel.
I'm sorry for your pain.

[/quote]I wish to be a someone that only a fool would leave. I wish to be a husband and a father, under the same roof. I wish to feel whole again......I don't know. I am still just SOOOO confused about HOW I am supposed to act. I don't even know what to do anymore and it's killing me. It's like I am lost, trying to find myself and improve....and I don't know how to do it. [/quote]
You pretty much summed up EXACTLY how I feel with that^^^^.
I'm sorry for your pain. Hugs.

Sp, it is a struggle but it gets better. All of life is a struggle, in learning to handle the difficult times we can then really appreciate the other side.

It seems you have these feelings that come up that you don't know what to do with. Conflict between W and "friends", W not doing what you think is the right thing, you being angry with W because of expectations you have. Again, everything is externally focused.

What can you do for you in the midst of all this? You can figure out how to deal with your emotions, specifically your anger. You're in your prime, you'll be in another R sometime, wouldn't you like it to be better? You will need to deal with W for years ahead, wouldn't you like that to be smooth? Your D will challenge you in the coming years, wouldn't you like to have the skills to help her grow into a confident, honest, in control or herself woman?

You have some anger/hurt that you're not getting to here and sometimes the only way to do that is one-on-one. Think about it.

Were you exposed to "ragers" as a child? (someone who expressed anger through rage)

I wish to ask you all, should I not be angry? I don't think my feelings of anger are abnormal or un-warranted. Am I offbase by thinking my emotions are completely normal? I mean, I would think it was really weird if someone else was in the same situation as I am in, and they had no anger about it. Many of my friends and family are actually surprised I am not showing more anger towards wife, so I know I can't be extreme in my feelings. To me, it seems completely reasonable that I have some hurt and anger. How I control that is a different subject however. I do feel like I am managing my feelings better, not letting emotions control me, at least not nearly as much as they used to.

I don't have anything that comes to mind about being exposed to "ragers". I see where you were going with that, LA. I just don't think I have any poor modeling or unresolved issues from my childhood regarding anger or rage. My family and friends have always been able to have heated arguements, don't get me wrong. But, not anywhere near to the point of what I would consider rage....no, not at all.

This whole thing does sadden me, and I am hurting. It seems very unfair that my marriage has crumbled after being in the relationship for 12 years. It seems unfair that we didn't make ANY real effort to work on it. It hurts that wife has seemingly never even looked back or reached out to me in hopes of making it work. It saddens me that wife has already started to build a completely new circle of friends and is alreadying starting to build relationships with OM. It breaks my heart to feel that wife could so easily replace me. Yes, that hurts, and yes that makes me angry. Why? Because here I am with all of my hopes, dreams, plans and expectations about my life just thrown out the window. How can that NOT make someone bitter or resentful? This has been without a doubt, the most difficult, emotional thing I have ever gone through....and I still don't fully understand it.

SP. Thank you for your continued support.

I can relate with you.

I certainly would think feeling anger is very normal, I certainly hope so as I have anger plus about every other emotion and they are heightened now. I did have rage in as a role model growing up, I have had rage myself and it is terrifying.

I see you use the words unfair, bitter and resentful. I think those too are valid emotions and they need addressed, I wish I knew how to address them as I would share, but I don't.

I also understand your confusion and how your thinking may change from day to day, I have that too.

I am sorry that all I can offer is that I can relate. I follow your sitch and you are improving.

Thank you, JP.

I am really trying to do some deep introspection. I never realized that I should be more in tune with some of my, for lack of a better word, issues. It is difficult even trying to figure out why I feel a certain way, then coming to the revelation that it's a problem, let alone coming up with permanent solutions on how to better myself....I am definitly getting a good strong look at myself tho. I KNOW that I will come out of this a better person. I feel whole heartedly that I would be a much better husband today....But, I guess time will only show HOW much better.

I am not really sure if I will ever come to peace with wifes decisions or actions. I know that several people on here have. I also know that others never really do. I have a few of those types of people in my immeditate circle of friends and family. I do not wish to end up like them. They are bitter, resentful and down right unhappy. They also tend to stereotype and judge all individuals. I hope with all my heart I don't become one of them, but I am not sure I can deal with this breakup....completely, without understanding "why".

I have been having a decent day. Back to my summer work schedule, suns shining. Wife was out detialing her car right in the front of the business. So, I stopped and sparked up a small conversation. It was going well, so at the end I said, "hey, daughter and I wanted to check out that new sushi place tomorrow. Would you like to join us?". Her answer was, " a friend is having a Mary K party, and I am going to that". I mentioned that it was our anniversary, and she mentioned that she didn't forget the date. I said, "well it's worth remembering", and away I went....choked up...was full of expectations and it bit me on the hiney. I tried to act as if, but I am sure there was visable hurt in my face. I haven't put an offer out there in a while and I start by doing a spur of the moment date offer? I don't even know what I expected. Regardless, We have been growing farther and farther apart. Wife is dating. She is starting a new life that I probably wouldn't fit into now, even if we did reconcile. She isn't coming back and it is time for me to really get that through my thick skull. I think maybe it is time for me to go as dark as possible. It's just too much on me, and I can't detach or hold no expectations when I engage her.

I don't claim to have all the answers. What I can tell you is that you need to kill these inner demons that control you. There is something that fuels the anger inside you.

My anger was like a constant pilot light... It could turn something that should have been a 3 on the PO scale to an 8 in a heartbeat.

I tackled the the two biggest demons I had. It really brought up some seriously painful memories. However, bringing this evil to the light takes away it's power. Every time I talk about them, their power grows less and less.

Am I over this stuff? Nope. Will I ever be? I don't think so. What I have done is accepted the fact that these things happened and that they will never happen again. These people can no longer hurt me. I did nothing to deserve what they did.

Closure? It is a fallacy. A myth. It lives next door to the Unicorn holding the overdrive gear for a 1954 Corvette.

Just read your last post...

I have an anniversary coming up. My W's B-Day just passed.

I used to make her a mime for her FB page for her B-Day. I still made her one this year but sent it to her phone instead. It tells her that I was thinking about her but didn't blare out to the world "See? I remembered her birthday even thugh she didn't acknowledge mine!"

That would have been score keeping. Nobody wins that game.

Ya, I am beginning to think that I will never have closure, never really get past this....That is scary. I want more than anything to just be happy, to forget, to do whatever it takes to not focus on it anymore. I want to be free from it. Unfortunately, anything and everything seems to remind me about my failed marriage. I am sure it is that way for most, if not all, of us.

I look at wife, totally considering our marriage to be a negative, not worth saving, not worth even trying, needing to get out, needing to move on. Then, I see her actually DOING it! Today, my daughter spoke openly about spending time with OM...and HIS mother. Wife has literally met his family and introduced them into my daughters life already, at least at some level. On one hand I admire her ability to disconnect and just do what she has set out to do. On the other hand, I feel like "how can she just move on and start all these new realtionships and friendships with total disregard to our 12 years together". I know that she was obviously unhappy, but STILL. How can she be able to do it with such conviction. It amazes me. It scares me too. Wife was the ONE person that I thought really cared and loved me. I really thought that. Now here I am just spinning. It makes me feel like, how can I ever trust anyone with my heart again, if this person that I thought for 12 years loved me with all of her own and suddenly seemwed to throw it all away. How can I trust anyone at that level again....ever.....

After todays discussion, and me inviting her to dinner, her declining without any sign of sadness or anything....that will be the end of the anniversary celebrations. It's dead. I won't address it again.

Who knows, maybe she declined to give me some closure. I know she has mentioned that she doesn't like hurting me. Maybe it was her way of being kind...

SP.
I feel weird giving advice as I don't seem to heed the advice given to me all the time... Maybe writing you will help me too.

What I see in you is that you are tore between how to live in your current sitch. You still want your W, yet holding on to her is too hard. URworthy has told me several times to put my M in a safe box and put it away, so that I can focus on me. I really think that is something you may want to try.

For me I can start to get focus on what I need, go to gym, time with D's, work on things that I want to do and feel, OK. Then... W come into the picture, she text, she is around, something and I turn into a little puppy. My emotions and thoughts flood me with how much I love her, I place her on her pedestal and all my focus goes to her. What happened to what I was doing, who am I, IDK, nor do I can, my W is there and giving me attention (crumbs) and I eat it up. Maybe I don't act like a little puppy anymore, but that is what happens in my head.

So maybe it isn't quite like that for you, but I would dare to guess there is some of that for you and if like me, after your mind goes to your W, it is hard and slow getting back to yourself.

I am extreme, you know this. I am all or nothing and catastrophic thinking. I don't ride the roller coaster. I bungee jump. So I have to figure out how to put my W away somewhere safe, as I am not (at least now) ready to give up. I think you may benefit from doing the same.

Ready to know how to do that? Me too

It is something I am working on and it is hard, harder than working on me, as that is easy in comparison to not hanging onto my W.

So tuck her away, somewhere safe and focus on you. I will do the same.

Going to therapy this am and will ask about my anger and how to feel it and then let it go, along with other emotions. I know there is no magic pill, hoping for a straight forward answer, but will probably get some ideas that don't quite make sense.

Hang in there. I know it is hard, really hard, really really hard.

*nor do I care

SP. Read the advice given to me on here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...910#Post2356910

Sp, about the anger, I don't think anyone is telling you not to feel it or that it's unusual to have anger. Anger is useful but it's not useful every time we feel it.

Our brain sometimes tells us things that aren't true. It's our job to learn to interpret and control that response.

What you describe most often is this, you feel hurt or sad, you don't like those feelings and want to put them on someone else (usually W) that's when it flips to anger because she "made" you sad. Again you want to go external. When you feel sad/hurt can you say to your self "I feel really effin' sad right now and I don't like this feeling at all but this is where I am"?

I know sometimes the pain feels like it will kill you but it won't. However, until you go there and find that out, you'll shy away from it. You'll want to make it go away, which usually means getting angry at the supposed source.

You can be angry, just use it when it's appropriate or would help the situation. How many situations can you think of where anger is a helpful emotion?

I am extreme, you know this. I am all or nothing and catastrophic thinking. I don't ride the roller coaster. I bungee jump. So I have to figure out how to put my W away somewhere safe, as I am not (at least now) ready to give up. I think you may benefit from doing the same.
This from jp is great. Do you notice how you went from not having an anniversary this year right into you'll never trust anyone again, no one will ever love you again without even taking a breath?

Live today, you have no idea what will be happening 6 months from now. I would bet, like most WASs here that your W was checked out long before the BD but tried to stay in the game until it got to be too much. Unfair, maybe but that's what's on your plate, my plate, most everyone here got served the same dish. Don't make up stories about it, harness your need to make everything awful.

You wrote that you don't want to become like some Dd friends of yours. I had a similar goal, to keep from becoming resentful and angry, I gave enough of my life up to those feelings. You said you "hoped" you wouldn't become those things and it sounded as if you thought it was up to someone or something else to keep that from happening. It's completely YOUR choice, through YOUR actions and thoughts. Stay away from those people who are like that because they will want to teach you how to be just like them. Misery loves company.

Thanks, JP.

I really appreciate your support, and I am glad that you are back with us and willing to dig deep to work on yourself.

I am really in it today. I have been up since, well....before the crack of dawn with my head and heart just swimming. I think a big portion of my anxiousness is that I am FINALLY in a position that I realize what wife needed. She needed to be loved, doted on, appreciated and all of that needed to be expressed to her through my words and actions. I have always felt it, but I didn't express it. I didn't show her enough. I needed to be much more open about expressing my love for her. That is how it worked in the first several years of our marriage. I really really wish I could do that now. I want to do that. I want to just hold her hand for no other reason than, "I love her". I want to tell her how pretty she is...Unfortunately, her hand is just not available to me any longer and it crushes me. Anyway, I am babbling. I am just hurting. I want her back. I want my family back. I know with all my heart it would be the way it should have always been. But, she can't see it. She won't see it. Even if she could see it, she wouldn't allow it. THAT makes me sad....my whole life feels like this..... Suckerpunchs' life, or at least how he feels it.

Sometimes I find fitting songs that fit with how I feel in this mess and there's not a shortage of them.

The problem with doing that is, it not only keeps you down, they rip at your heart and surround you with darkness.

Not helpful.

Here. Try this one.

Eminem - Not Afraid

Originally Posted By: jp787

Sometimes I find fitting songs that fit with how I feel in this mess and there's not a shortage of them.

The problem with doing that is, it not only keeps you down, they rip at your heart and surround you with darkness.

Not helpful.

I agree. When that song first came out, it did pull at my heart strings. I am pretty okay with it now. It doesn't make me feel sappy or sad....just tells a story. I like Marhsall as well, although "Not afraid" is not one of my favorites. Regardless, Point well taken, JP

ohhhh, Left something out...geeez. Probably going to need a nap today...haha

So, I gave more and more thought to how I feet about the anniversary, how I wanted to recognize it, what I thought was right, how I wanted to honor it. I decided to send wife a simple text:

I want to say that you are now, and always have been the most beautiful woman I know. You are a wonderful, loving Mother and terrific friend. Without a doubt, you have the most caring heart of anyone that I know. There are no others like you,(wife). With all of my heart, I hope you find yourself enjoying this day.

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

I want to say that you are now, and always have been the most beautiful woman I know. You are a wonderful, loving Mother and terrific friend. Without a doubt, you have the most caring heart of anyone that I know. There are no others like you,(wife). With all of my heart, I hope you find yourself enjoying this day.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Don't send this! It was just YESTERDAY that you asked her out on a date and got it thrown back in your face, and you had a moment of clarity:

Quote:

and away I went....choked up...was full of expectations and it bit me on the hiney. I tried to act as if, but I am sure there was visable hurt in my face. I haven't put an offer out there in a while and I start by doing a spur of the moment date offer? I don't even know what I expected.

And now you're going to follow that up with a love letter? Can you honestly say that you can send that with zero expectations? I don't think you can, and I promise you, you are going to be very disappointed in her response (if there even is one). What happened to your game plan from yesterday? This one:

Quote:

Regardless, We have been growing farther and farther apart. Wife is dating. She is starting a new life that I probably wouldn't fit into now, even if we did reconcile. She isn't coming back and it is time for me to really get that through my thick skull. I think maybe it is time for me to go as dark as possible. It's just too much on me, and I can't detach or hold no expectations when I engage her.

I think you were completely right. You need to go as dark as possible, for YOU. So, ask yourself, if you were dark then how would you change your above message to her?

You know, I didn't even really think about it that way, AS.
I gave the anniversary a LOT of thought and I realized that, I don't wish to ignore it as if it never happened and those were things I wanted to say....so I sent it. I honestly had no expectations regarding that text. If I didn't get a reply, it wouldn't have bothered me all that much. The text was more for me personally. I didn't consider it a "love letter". I didn't express my love for her, but I can now see what you are pointing out. I hope it didn't come off as pursuing or pressuring, because that was not my intention. If she did interpret it that way, that will be her emotions to deal with. I did what I wanted to do. I didn't mention the anniversary itself, just noted the day.

With that said, wife did reply, and I was a little surprised by her text.....mostly just the use of wording, I guess

Thank you for that,(Suckerpunch). Happy Anniversary. today will always be special to me, no matter where we are at in our lives. Have a good day and let me know what the Dr. says about (daughter).

Daughter had an apointment today, obviously. The "happy anniversary" part threw me....horrible choice of wording on her behalf, I would say.

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

So, I am really struggling with detachment.

This weekend, wife was present at our business, for a bit. She spent time with friends and family, who apparently didn't sugar coat their feelings with her. She was told that they did not aprove of her dating, of her continuing to stay under a roof that I am providing, that she leave daughter with a sitter while she went out to invent her new life or that she was expecting a payoff for her decision to leave the marriage. That is some pretty hard tough talk, and wife was feeling sad about it.

Who on earth would tell your wife ANY of ^^this? I thought you told your friends to butt out and that it's none of their business? As for the financials, I have to wonder if that is your family, the most biased of all parties and who have their own financial interest involved, who are commenting. YOU need to shut that down. IT totally hinders any possibility of reconciling.

I honestly think your family/friends' comments are have harmed your situation several times more than you realize. I mean, exponentially damaging...

She posted some pity party stuff on her Facebook. For the first time, in a long time, I really didn't care all that much.

Then why read it at all? Your previous posts showed some insights and then real desire to improve.

THEN your feelings got hurt, you were challenged...and you reverted immediately to the choice of first resort for you, ANGER....again...and again...I have to say this is very frustrating to read so often with you.

None of your "insights/growth" matter if you always revert to your old ways when it gets hard. IT will get hard. Life's that way.

Anyone can be a fun, decent guy in the good times....that's NOT the test of character or growth you want to pass.

I felt like, "screw her. I hope she finds happiness, but I can't worry about if she does or if she doesn't. I felt almost indifferent about it. Then, this happened....

SP, I call BS on this claim^^...

you were p1ssed off, plain and simple. NOTHING "indifferent" about it. Come on...I don't like wasting my time on plain falsehoods, b/c it delays us getting to the REAL stuff, like your anger and jealousy and the negativity from your family and friends who must have NO IDEA what actually helps a relationship.

They're so used to bashing and thinking negatively of others, they have no idea how harmful they were AND ARE to your marriage and to how you see things in the world.

I don't know how you're ever going to really change your paradigm or learn inner contentment...not in that environment, unless YOU set boundaries. And you don't/won't.

You let those people say those things to your wife...did part of you want it?

I worry that Part of you enjoyed it and hoped it would shame her into crawling back to you. But you need to understand that in reality, I suspect it had the opposite effect...

Wife left our daughter saturday afternoon, for the remainder of the night. She left her with an absolute DRUNK who stays at our business during the summer months. During her time with this "sitter", she was exposed to exxcessive drinking, left to the supervision of an 11 YO. boy and allowed to stay up very late into the night playing. In all reality, daughter probably had a blast. Still, it didn't settle well with me. I was present and perfectly capable of watching her. Wife didn't ask.

Wait...you were present and perfectly capable of watching her. So she WAS safe? OR you could have watched her but chose not to?

Why didn't you step in and take care of your daughter if it was not safe? Why did you hold onto your anger/scorecard instead of remedying the problem?

If the house were on fire, would you rescue your d - or watch her burn so you could blame your w?

I am sure you'd save your d in that extreme situation but do you see that this is analogous??

You say you SAW your d in a situation you felt was unhealthy and you did nothing b/c "wife didn't ask"....

either it was safe and you are just being negative again, OR it was not safe and you stood by and fumed...and I have to wonder why that is...

I don't like her choices, but I don't like yours much either.

The next day, Father's Day, wife asked if she could take daughter to see her grandfather for a going away party. I agreed, but I was also hurt that I was not asked to attend. I really admired this man and feel that we have a great connection. It just hurt being reminded that I was no longer part of the family.

On FATHER'S DAY you could have simply calmly firmly asserted your desire to be with your d. Not your "right" so much as your desire to celebrate your d's life in yours...why'd you let this happen? So weird to me, so obvious that you should have spent the time with your d. As a compromise you could have offered to share the day with her grandfather...but oh, then you'd have to communicate!!

Maybe it didn't seem that important to you, to your w. I mean, you said "yes" your d could go AND you didn't ask to attend...why not? Why does she have to mind read when you have told her several times that you don't want her around so much?...
AND then expect her to invite you places you want to attend,

you have wants and you feel hurt, but you say nothing...

how's that approach working for you?

As always, my hurt turned to anger, which was increased

"increased" by....YOU, not by something wife did...

how can you STILL make it all her fault that you were angry and that you CHOSE to convert hurt into pain, "as always"??

You sure get close to seeing the truth and your role in it, but I guess it gets to be too much, so you revert and blame her again....it's keeping you stuck and getting you nowhere.

...SP, you were mad and hurt the WHOLE weekend. SURE - I wish she'd made different choices about Father's Day. But I wish that for you too.

You don't seem to know how to calmly express yourself or to resolve a conflict. One of you has to mind read or give in and then fume, but there's no resolution that is mutual.

Still....AND as for her being with OM, for a whole night, I can't help but feel your family's 'blame shame game' pushed her into his arms more...I really do have that feeling.

Shame is NOT an effective tool for change. It's just destructive. No one crawls home to a marriage in shame, and is then happy, OR stays....no one.

by the lack or follow through on wifes part. I beleive wife stayed out all night with OM the previous night. So, she did not bring daughter to see me before going to he grandfathers party.

I was okay with that. Our agreement was she would have daugther between 1-4.

Why were you "okay" with ^^this? And then whey did you AGREE to another delay? Can't you see how it looks? Like it's NO BIG DEAL TO YOU....that's how it looks, but instead, now,

you are mad at her for doing what YOU AGREED TO??? How do you get to set her up like this? And what lack of "follow thru" of hers, enables you to be angry at her again?

To me,

you looked like an uncaring dad who made no plans for spending time or doing something fun with his only child on Father's Day...

BUT you then blamed her for reacting to YOUR behaviors...why'd she have ANY time with d on Father's Day arranged? Why wasn't it clear that you wanted it? B/C you said/did nothing to make it happen, before AND all along the day!

Honest to God, it makes it look as if you want to be angry at her, like you want to see yourself as a victim.

I'm not even sure you're aware of this. Is it a dynamic your family has taught you?

Around 4:30 she texted asking if she could bring daguther to see me 6pm because she was having a good time and wanted to stay longer. I reluctantly agreed. Remember, this is on Father
s Day...MY DAY!

Wow, maybe you're just mad at yourself for not having an adult conversation the whole day.

But now, imo, you have zero right to complain. You agreed to every single request she made and you made zero plans for Father's Day, which is now obvious.

Sorry SP, at first I thought she was so out of line but now I think,

you don't get to whine about this^^^ part. Was she insensitve, or were YOU?

You made no plans at all to spend the day with your d. At least none that WE know of, or that your wife knew of.

Think about your history too...the dropped balls for special days (at least in her eyes) So given that, what expectations did you have of her, that were at all reasonable or fair?

So, at almost 7PM wife shows up with daughter. She hadn't eaten, she was dirty, my quality time was going to amount to finding her some dinner and getting her ready for bed, GREAT!

instead of??

And how would your w have known you wanted any different? After all, all you had to do was feed her and put her to bed.

Maybe to your w, she was doing you a favor, given how you gave your Father's Day away.

Needless to say, I had a hard time being detached. I was mad, I was angry, I was hurt. When wife showed up at the door, ready to go out (mind reading, but more than likely with OM) I felt so taken advantage of and disrespected. Wife didn't say sorry, she didn't say happy fathers day, she didn't say she appreciated my felxibility, nothing.

Why would she say ANY of those things? You GAVE your day away! You gave it to others every time you could have just said "no".

YOU looked uncaring but you want credit for that now and call it "flexible"? SP, to me, you were not "Flexible" - you were just lazy or silent. And you set her up. Again...and you seem to think you get to feel all "right" about being so angry!!

Man, SP, you have to learn a NEW -DIFFERENT- REACTION to pain, or be miserable for good.

Therefore I had very few words, really biting my tongue because I knew that I had to act as if. Other than being a little stand offish and distant, I think I did okay. I avoided any conflict, at least. Wife texted later saying "oh I forgot, happy Fathers day". I was able to make the best of the evening with the time I had with daughter. Today, I am just hurt thinking about it.

You need some recovery tools. I guess having my heart broken at a young age did pass some lessons on to me. So did the therapy for unresolved issues and the workshops I've mentioned to you.

Your inexperience with this type of challenge and inexperience with "personal growth" touchy feely things, shows a lot and that's not a criticism, it's just what you have said. I mean, a lot of men never dig deep. And if your family had a "glass is half empty" dynamic, you may never dig deep.

B/C that underlying belief that worry and anger are "tools for coping" instead of Happiness impediments, keeps most people like that from ever digging deep for fear of what they might find.

But you clearly need some new tools.

SP, Why aren't you seeing a T or going to a personal growth or communication workshop?

You need to see life in a new way. YOU REALLY DO. Your family and friends are all reinforcing the very traits in you that are not helpful at a deep soul level.

I can see how they think (superficially) that dating others or stomping your feet at the injustice of your wife is helpful.

But her not reading your mind the whole weekend and taking your actually verbalized words at face value (like the things YOU SAID to her, which included silence and saying "I was okay with that" and "I reluctantly agreed" to)

but you never once said

"W, it's Fathers Day. I want to be with d."

Why couldn't you just say that from the get go? That is so obvious a question to me, but it never crossed your mind and those words never left your mouth...how odd.

Or better yet, why didn't you plan Father's Day ahead of time? Why not say what you wanted BEFORE you felt hurt/angry?

To me, THAT IS THE REAL QUESTION.

Ever wonder if Your wife had every right to forget the day, since it appeared to her as if you had?

SP

read La bug's words again...they are spot on for you.

Live today, you have no idea what will be happening 6 months from now. I would bet, like most WASs here that your W was checked out long before the BD but tried to stay in the game until it got to be too much. Unfair, maybe but that's what's on your plate, my plate, most everyone here got served the same dish. Don't make up stories about it, harness your need to make everything awful. (STOP the catastrophizing...it's part of the paradigm shift you must make ASAP or at least begin to...remember Carol's story? Maybe you ought to go read it again)

You wrote that you don't want to become like some Dd friends of yours. I had a similar goal, to keep from becoming resentful and angry, I gave enough of my life up to those feelings. You said you "hoped" you wouldn't become those things and it sounded as if you thought it was up to someone or something else to keep that from happening. It's completely YOUR choice, through YOUR actions and thoughts. Stay away from those people who are like that because they will want to teach you how to be just like them. Misery loves company.

Amen.

And although misery does love company, the inwardly content people are never lonely.

YOU CAN CHANGE BUT YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IT, FOR IT TO HAPPEN.

And you have to get those tools Sp. Did you even check out the website of the workshop "Essential Experience"?
Please do.

SP... I get the feeling you are looking for magic answers. There are none. The unicorn ate them all.

I walked in shoes like yours. I dug deep. It hurts. A lot. However, the relief after is worth the effort.

Well, first and foremost I will admit that I was not detached, with the feeling of "big deal". That was a farce, perhaps I was trying to make myself beleive.

in regards to daughters safety, there wasn't any issue with her physicial safety that I was aware of. My issues were more in regards to the modeling she was subject to. It has been an issue with me since the birth of our daughter. This friend, the "dunk" is a very caring person. She is a close friend of wifes, why? I have no idea. My biggest issues with her are her drinking and lack of moral values. To put it simply, she is very inapropriate. She is a drunk, and she is not kid friendly in regards to her words or actions. The flip side of this is, wife and daughter think shes the bees knees. Me stepping in during that situation would leave me looking like a complete idiot. Daughter was in no physcial harms way, but at the same time this relationship has been present daughters entire life. I am not sure why it bothers me so much more now. Perhaps, because I know wife is using her as a babysitter while she chooses to spend time with OM, rather than spending time with daughter in the limited amount of days she has available to her. It just doesn't settle well with me. I am sure wife would not ask me to babysit while she goes off and doinks another man, to put it bluntly. So, I am experiencing double the reasons for my anger to flair.

Here is the situation regarding Fathers day and how I repsonded to it. Wife asked me if she would be able to take daughter. On any other day, my answer would have been an absolute NO. However, my wifes grandfather, a man I dearly admire, is leaving his home to move 12 hours north where another family member can care for him. He is in his late 70's, with deteriorating health. It is very likely that the day in question would be the last time my daughter would likely ever see him. I felt it was important for her to be there to see her great grandpa off for the last time. That is the sole reason why I agreed to the request, and it was also the only reason I allowed the time to be extended. Bearing any unforseen tragedy, I will have many more chances at fathers day with my daughter. That is what drove my decision. I did not ask to attend. That would have been the most sincere form or pursuing I can think of. I am sure you would have let me have it for ever mentioning something like that. I was however very hurt that I was not asked. It was not my place to request and invite. Wife later told me that she didn't invite me because I do not invite her to my family functions. That absolutely blew me away. I thought that she no longer wished to be part of any of it. I was shocked.

I KNOW that when I am hurt, I resort to anger. I am working on it. I KNOW I am better at controling it and accepting it than ever before. I have vented, but I have not reacted anywhere near how I would have reacted in the past. I am improving.

Oh, and in regards to the family members that spoke with wife. they were actually HER family members, cousins. I was not present, nor did I have any idea the discussions were going on. I was only informed about it the next day. Aparently, wife was making comments that her cousins felt were either untrue or our of context. I am not sure. I did not condone it, but I am sorry that the conversation happened.

I have given LOTS of thought to what LA said about wife checking out a long time ago. I am certain that is very accurate. We BOTH had pulled way back in our relationship for a very long time prior to BD. I assume that doesn't make my chances of reconling to be very likely, and it makes me feel that much worse about the situation. I needed to be more pro-active in my marriage years ago, not months ago. Now, I feel it is far, far too late. I have almost accepted, no not accepted, REALIZED, that wife is never coming back. For some reason I cannot come to grips with it enough to move myself forward. I know I am experiencing personal growth. Perhaps not as much as you would like to see, 25, but its growth and I know it is happening. The unfortunate side of things is along with my growth, there is more than likely not going to be a reconciliation. I have read through enough sitches, less damaged than mine, that never get a second chance. I am fairly sure I fall into that catagory. It really sux!

Oh, couseling. There is a reason I am no longer seeing a counselor. I can't really afford it. My insurance covered some of my previous visits, but I would be incurring the costs myself at this point, roughly 100 bucks a session. I simply can't swing it.

I have spoken with a church pastor who is also a marriage counselor. It helped with my spirituality and my initial sadness, but not in my core issues of anger or always resorting to the glass being half empty. I was only able to get so much out of it.

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

Oh, couseling. There is a reason I am no longer seeing a counselor. I can't really afford it. My insurance covered some of my previous visits, but I would be incurring the costs myself at this point, roughly 100 bucks a session. I simply can't swing it.

Yeah, I used this excuse, too. The truth being that there was that there was sliding scale and free counseling available but it is so much easier to blame it on the insurance. See, that way I didn't have to accept any responsibility.

I have spoken with a church pastor who is also a marriage counselor. It helped with my spirituality and my initial sadness, but not in my core issues of anger or always resorting to the glass being half empty. I was only able to get so much out of it.

My guess is because you didn't want to. I see my pastor and I get plenty from it. Mostly because I learned to shut up and listen and be truthful when I talk to him.

Working through to the core of the anger is a painful process. I worked through some pretty awful stuff if you read my threads. That was probably one of the hardest month I ever had. I finally just got tired of being so angry about everything. I got tired of people making comments. I got tired of paying the price for being a constant dick.

You have to get through to that core where the anger is. If you don't it will always fester. I can speak from experience.

Have you thought about doing something like AA or Emotions Anonymous? *

My girlfriend did the latter as a 12 step program and found it really helpful.

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

However, my wifes grandfather, a man I dearly admire, is leaving his home to move 12 hours north where another family member can care for him. He is in his late 70's, with deteriorating health. It is very likely that the day in question would be the last time my daughter would likely ever see him. I felt it was important for her to be there to see her great grandpa off for the last time. That is the sole reason why I agreed to the request, and it was also the only reason I allowed the time to be extended. Bearing any unforseen tragedy, I will have many more chances at fathers day with my daughter. That is what drove my decision.

Then why are you so bitter and angry about it? And don't use the "oh I was just venting" excuse again, you are CLEARLY very bitter and angry towards your W over this and you have no right to be. 25 spends a ton of time trying to hold a mirror up to you so you can see your faults and errors and you keep repeating the same pattern of explaining her comments away as if they don't apply. But oh do they ever apply, and you continue to avert your gaze from the mirror she's holding up to you. 25 sees it, we see it, but you STILL don't see it. And you need to. Because as long as you refuse to see it then YOU are the impediment to reconciling with your W and YOU are the roadblock on the road to making yourself the best possible person and the spouse only a fool would leave.

Quote:

I did not ask to attend. That would have been the most sincere form or pursuing I can think of. I am sure you would have let me have it for ever mentioning something like that.

You are trying your best to control and manipulate us into seeing things your way. Truth darts are being thrown at you and you are holding a flimsy shield up to try and divert them from hitting the target. That shield has a name- EGO. Look, I've been there, maybe that's why it's so easy for me to recognize the same in you. I have some not-so-proud moments in my threads where I let my ego prevent me from understanding some of the comments that were thrown at me. I spent time trying to explain things away to justify my negative behavior. But it wasn't until I got over myself that the real healing and growth began.

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I was however very hurt that I was not asked.

Do you understand 25's point that YOU are hurting YOURSELF? Your W had nothing to do with it. She didn't insist on taking D, she ASKED you. You gave FULL PERMISSION. You never once communicated to W that you wanted any of D's time for Father's Day. You and your W are S, things like this are NOT your W's responsibility anymore. YOU didn't take responsibility and now you want to blame W for it.

Quote:

It was not my place to request and invite.

Says who? YOU. Don't make up rules as you go to justify your negative behavior.

Quote:

Wife later told me that she didn't invite me because I do not invite her to my family functions. That absolutely blew me away. I thought that she no longer wished to be part of any of it. I was shocked.

And why did this blow you away? Because you don't communicate with your W. You have no idea what her feelings are, you continue to just assume that you know what she is thinking/ feeling.

Quote:

Oh, and in regards to the family members that spoke with wife. they were actually HER family members, cousins. I was not present, nor did I have any idea the discussions were going on. I was only informed about it the next day.

Who is telling you this stuff? You keep sharing all this info about people beating up your W, then when someone calls you out on not doing anything about it your response is always the same, along the lines of "oh they're not my friends/ relatives, I have no control over that". I think 25 is on the mark when she says you secretly enjoy seeing your W berated like this. You still think this is all your W's fault and you're just the victim. Frankly I think your W is a much bigger victim in this, she's not just being beat up by you, but by every friend and relative as well. And why do all of these people view her as the guilty party? Who would be giving them that impression? I'm sure right now you're thinking it's her, she's bringing it on herself. But you don't realize the subtle and not-so-subtle ways that you constantly attack your W, I'm sure you do it in "real life" because you do it constantly here as well.

Quote:

I needed to be more pro-active in my marriage years ago, not months ago. Now, I feel it is far, far too late.

Do you assume a defeatist attitude like this in everything in your life? Not sure if you smoke, but if you were a smoker and you got lung cancer, would you say "oh well, I should have quit smoking a long time ago, but it's too late now." Or would you say "screw this cancer stuff, I choose LIFE! I am going to make changes now, I am going to do everything to make the best of what I have left and extend that time as much as I can! I am going to show the world that I can beat the odds!" I've been around both of those types of people. People that quit as soon as things got a little tough, and people that soared like eagles despite facing ridiculous odds. I'm sure you can pause and think of people that fit in both of those categories. Which did you respect? Which type inspired you? Why? Which do YOU want to be?

I knew a teenaged boy that contracted cancer, son of a coworker. He became an activist, traveling with his family to raise cancer awareness and bring in money. Not for himself, because it was too late for him to be cured. He was doing it for others that he would never even know. He fought the cancer hard, he fought bravely, and he fought with a dignity that I've rarely seen. He NEVER let cancer interfere with his PMA and to the end he was a beacon of hope to others. The cancer won and he died. But you know what people remember? NOT a victim. A HERO.

We all have the stuff to be heroes. But first we have to CHOOSE to quit being victims.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

However, my wifes grandfather, a man I dearly admire, is leaving his home to move 12 hours north where another family member can care for him. He is in his late 70's, with deteriorating health. It is very likely that the day in question would be the last time my daughter would likely ever see him. I felt it was important for her to be there to see her great grandpa off for the last time. That is the sole reason why I agreed to the request, and it was also the only reason I allowed the time to be extended. Bearing any unforseen tragedy, I will have many more chances at fathers day with my daughter. That is what drove my decision.

Then why are you so bitter and angry about it? And don't use the "oh I was just venting" excuse again, you are CLEARLY very bitter and angry towards your W over this and you have no right to be. 25 spends a ton of time trying to hold a mirror up to you so you can see your faults and errors and you keep repeating the same pattern of explaining her comments away as if they don't apply. But oh do they ever apply, and you continue to avert your gaze from the mirror she's holding up to you. 25 sees it, we see it, but you STILL don't see it. And you need to. Because as long as you refuse to see it then YOU are the impediment to reconciling with your W and YOU are the roadblock on the road to making yourself the best possible person and the spouse only a fool would leave.

I was bitter and angry because of the way she went about it. She asked for 3 hours. Then, she never brought daughter by in the morning, but I figured maybe they were running late trying to get ready. Then, 30 minutes after they are supposed to be here she texts asking for more time. She was already late, even before asking for more time. I admit, I did agree to the terms. But then, she shows up an hour late, and she had to dump our daughter off quickly with a dirty face and a hungry belly so she could go spend time with OM. I ended up with roughly 2 hours, out of the ENTIRE day, to spend with daughter. I acted as if. I rolled with the punches, but how am I supposed to feel about that, Happy? What she did was selfish and inconsiderate. Perhaps it was my fault for allowing it, but I know that I would have been the bad guy if I said "no, bring her home now" or not even allowed her to go in the first place. I didn't want that either. I was put in a difficult place and I did my best, or at least what I thought was my best.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

I did not ask to attend. That would have been the most sincere form or pursuing I can think of. I am sure you would have let me have it for ever mentioning something like that.

You are trying your best to control and manipulate us into seeing things your way. Truth darts are being thrown at you and you are holding a flimsy shield up to try and divert them from hitting the target. That shield has a name- EGO. Look, I've been there, maybe that's why it's so easy for me to recognize the same in you. I have some not-so-proud moments in my threads where I let my ego prevent me from understanding some of the comments that were thrown at me. I spent time trying to explain things away to justify my negative behavior. But it wasn't until I got over myself that the real healing and growth began.

I really struggle with this paragraph. It honestly feels like you are just trying to point out that ANYTHING and EVERYTHING I do is wrong. I am not trying to manipulate anyone, AS. Do you honestly feel that I should have asked to be invited? Do you honestly feel that I am manipulating you by pointing out that I think it would be considered pursuing? I mean, maybe I am really really not getting the view in the mirror, but what you said here seems extrememly confusing to me.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

I was however very hurt that I was not asked.

Do you understand 25's point that YOU are hurting YOURSELF? Your W had nothing to do with it. She didn't insist on taking D, she ASKED you. You gave FULL PERMISSION. You never once communicated to W that you wanted any of D's time for Father's Day. You and your W are S, things like this are NOT your W's responsibility anymore. YOU didn't take responsibility and now you want to blame W for it.

I am going to defend myself once more. I DID make it clear that I wanted time with daughter. That is why I originally agreed to allowing wife to have her from 1-4pm. Every other minute of the day was supposed to be mine. That was our initial agreement. Furthermore, I don't see how, me not being invited and not asking to be invited, is "me hurting myself". Can you explain that?

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

It was not my place to request and invite.

Says who? YOU. Don't make up rules as you go to justify your negative behavior.

Justify my negative behavior? I didn't ask, possibly because it would have been rude, presumptuous, put someone in a awkward position, the list goes on. For all I knew, the OM was going to attend. Perhaps the whole family discussed it and decided against inviting me because I eat too much. I don't know. I feel it is simply poor ettiquete to invite ones self to a function. It is not like I was accidentally overlooked during the making of the guest list. Perhaps I am wrong in my thinking, but I also thought that asking to be included in her family function was not the right thing to do. Early on in my sitch, I asked to be included at a lighted christmas parade with daughter and several friends. I was told on several posts that was wrong of me to do, because it came off as pressuring and pursuing.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

Wife later told me that she didn't invite me because I do not invite her to my family functions. That absolutely blew me away. I thought that she no longer wished to be part of any of it. I was shocked.

And why did this blow you away? Because you don't communicate with your W. You have no idea what her feelings are, you continue to just assume that you know what she is thinking/ feeling.

you are absolutely right. I assumed. I have not been a good ommunicator in the past, and now wife is not even open to most conversations with me. She is extremely guarded. How do I change this? I don't know how to initiate a conversation, outside of daughter, without coming off as pressuring.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

Oh, and in regards to the family members that spoke with wife. they were actually HER family members, cousins. I was not present, nor did I have any idea the discussions were going on. I was only informed about it the next day.

Who is telling you this stuff? You keep sharing all this info about people beating up your W, then when someone calls you out on not doing anything about it your response is always the same, along the lines of "oh they're not my friends/ relatives, I have no control over that". I think 25 is on the mark when she says you secretly enjoy seeing your W berated like this. You still think this is all your W's fault and you're just the victim. Frankly I think your W is a much bigger victim in this, she's not just being beat up by you, but by every friend and relative as well. And why do all of these people view her as the guilty party? Who would be giving them that impression? I'm sure right now you're thinking it's her, she's bringing it on herself. But you don't realize the subtle and not-so-subtle ways that you constantly attack your W, I'm sure you do it in "real life" because you do it constantly here as well.

I have given this a lot of thought, AS. You're right. 25 is right. While I honestly feel I am not making any of it happen, I do feel some sort of satisfaction when wife is beat up on in regards to her actions or choices. I have been very much supportive of wife when discussing it with others. I have expressed sympathy for her, mentioned time and time again that she is really dealing with tough choices, that she was not happy and is trying to come up with the best solution for herself and that is she is doing the best that she can. I feel for her. I don't beat up on her. However, I do feel she "gets what she deserves" when others do it. That is a problem that I need to figure out. I am not sure why I feel that way, other than deep down inside I still do believe that her choice to leave the relationship was not fully warranted, not without at least some margin of trying to save the marriage. I feel it was VERY selfish of her to make this choice, while daughter and I have to feel the consequences. Why didn't she agree to trying to work on it before pulling the plug? Why wasn't daughter or I given any input on the decision? I think those feelings run very deep in me.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

]I needed to be more pro-active in my marriage years ago, not months ago. Now, I feel it is far, far too late.

Do you assume a defeatist attitude like this in everything in your life? Not sure if you smoke, but if you were a smoker and you got lung cancer, would you say "oh well, I should have quit smoking a long time ago, but it's too late now." Or would you say "screw this cancer stuff, I choose LIFE! I am going to make changes now, I am going to do everything to make the best of what I have left and extend that time as much as I can! I am going to show the world that I can beat the odds!" I've been around both of those types of people. People that quit as soon as things got a little tough, and people that soared like eagles despite facing ridiculous odds. I'm sure you can pause and think of people that fit in both of those categories. Which did you respect? Which type inspired you? Why? Which do YOU want to be?

I don't consider myself a defeatist, but I am a realist. I am here, right now, fighting my fight, AS. If I was a complete defeatist, I wouldn't even be on this forum. I am trying to improve. I am trying to save my marriage. I am trying to be a better man. I need work. I'm not perfect, but I am here trying to find the solutions and work on my problems. You are helping me with that, and I appreciate it so much.

things that were pressure or pursuit before, are NOT the same now.

Your sitch if further along. And you continue to defend what to ME, is clearly wrong actions on your end.

I don't want to belabor the point but I know you do. That part of you has not changed. You will try to outlast the person disagreeing so you can feel you "Won" but the thing is, I have other things to do with my time.

If you can't see what we see, it's not us who suffer.

I find it interesting how you STILL BLAME Your wife for this divorce while pretending not to, it's just cognitive dissonance in you.

Your were a critical jerk as a h, and that's NOT what you tell other people when they bash her. You tell them your wife is "making tough choices, was not happy" and you feign some compassion.

But it's an act. And I see thru it. You are angry and I predict you will always blame her, you will always see the glass half empty and have an excuse for not changing.

Getting help to change and learn to be a better man, or attending a workshop that can change your life, is "too expensive"?

I can't think of anything I'd rather spend money on. But you can...

Stop pretending that your daughter would never have suffered if your m had continued as it was. And that your wife is doing this to you AND d...

your critical commentary would probably have landed on your d, eventually. But even if not, seeing you put your wife down so often and belittling her (as you still do) would have harmed your d in many ways. Maybe She'd marry someone emotionally abusive. That would be something she saw growing up.

Since I don't sense a lot of change in you or your attitude toward your w here, which I think is real, then I don't see why she'd want to reconcile.

All your claims notwithstanding, marriage to you now would probably be a lot like it was before, b/c you STILL blame HER, and you do revert to anger when you are hurt.

Thing is there are "hurt moments" in every single marriage. Does not give you the right to go to anger every time but you STILL do.

Lovingly asserting yourself as a father on Father's Day is not pressure or pursuit. You could have told your wife you planned something. You could have said you'd drop d by gramps for awhile, AND OR stay with her while seeing him off...but get her yourself so w would not have to leave to return her to you.

Instead of you just defending every act, THINK about what we are saying and the big picture here.

No more quibbling. Life is too short to enjoy these endless scoring contests.

I hear you, 25....and I agree. I do resort to anger. I know. I also don't tell people that I was a jerk during the marriage and wife is not to blame. I don't. I admit that. I guess I need to dig a lot deeper than I ever realized. I honetly didn't, and still don't, think that my feelings were out of the norm. I feel like I have every right to be angry. Apparently I am wrong in my thinking. I just have to retrain my brain to think and accept things differently, I guess.

in regards to "things that were pressure before, are not now". That is something I have never heard a WORD about. Nobody every told me such a thing. I missed that memo. I thought DBing was staying on a straight course. I didn't realize that I could invite myself along at this point. My gut feeling would tell me the complete oposite. I just get so confused by this whole process. I am completely lost as what to do, how to think, what to accept, when to stand my ground when to be passive. I'm just clueless on how to proceed.

I don't intentionally try to manipulate you others into agreeing with my view. I just feel that some things that are said to me is taken out of context, so I elaborate with more detail. I'm not THAT bullheaded. I am just not sure that everyone has clear picture, because some of the things that are pointed out to me seem to be so far off base from my own feelings.

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

I hear you, 25....and I agree. I do resort to anger. I know. I also don't tell people that I was a jerk during the marriage and wife is not to blame. I don't. I admit that. I guess I need to dig a lot deeper than I ever realized. I honetly didn't, and still don't, think that my feelings were out of the norm. I feel like I have every right to be angry. Apparently I am wrong in my thinking. I just have to retrain my brain to think and accept things differently, I guess.

in regards to "things that were pressure before, are not now". That is something I have never heard a WORD about. Nobody every told me such a thing. I missed that memo. I thought DBing was staying on a straight course. I didn't realize that I could invite myself along at this point. My gut feeling would tell me the complete oposite. I just get so confused by this whole process. I am completely lost as what to do, how to think, what to accept, when to stand my ground when to be passive. I'm just clueless on how to proceed.

I don't intentionally try to manipulate you others into agreeing with my view. I just feel that some things that are said to me is taken out of context, so I elaborate with more detail. I'm not THAT bullheaded. I am just not sure that everyone has clear picture, because some of the things that are pointed out to me seem to be so far off base from my own feelings.

Sucker punch I can totally relate, Some of the advice people give is hard to hear. But I can tell you, I was in your shoes. My W left and started another R with a guy that she knew would absolutely kill me if she did. I was angry pissed enraged, wanted to kill the guy. Then I just thought to myself that i need to let her go and live her life and that the best revenge would be to make myself a happier person. Read my post I've been smacked with 2x4's by some of the best vets. took it personally until I looked in the mirror and owned my issues. My W is far from perfect and even know I still blame our sitch on her more than me. But i've owned my issues and am still working to make myself better.And i've let the anger go completely and man do I feel alot better. It's funny i spent so much time bashing my W to others. Now she's sniffing around and when I talk to people about my excitement everyone looks at me like I have three heads. I wish the best man

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

I hear you, 25....and I agree. I do resort to anger. I know. I also don't tell people that I was a jerk during the marriage and wife is not to blame. I don't. I admit that.

Yeah? Why not? Afraid of losing face? Afraid that you can't keep playing the victim? Afraid you might actually not be right?

I guess I need to dig a lot deeper than I ever realized. I honetly didn't, and still don't, think that my feelings were out of the norm. I feel like I have every right to be angry. Apparently I am wrong in my thinking. I just have to retrain my brain to think and accept things differently, I guess.

Could you be any more condescending here? Personally, I think you were playing the role of a martyr here. "Oh, woe is me! My wife took total advantage of me! How dare she treat me this way?!?!?"

in regards to "things that were pressure before, are not now". That is something I have never heard a WORD about. Nobody every told me such a thing. I missed that memo. I thought DBing was staying on a straight course. I didn't realize that I could invite myself along at this point. My gut feeling would tell me the complete oposite. I just get so confused by this whole process. I am completely lost as what to do, how to think, what to accept, when to stand my ground when to be passive. I'm just clueless on how to proceed.

I don't intentionally try to manipulate you others into agreeing with my view. I just feel that some things that are said to me is taken out of context, so I elaborate with more detail. I'm not THAT bullheaded. I am just not sure that everyone has clear picture, because some of the things that are pointed out to me seem to be so far off base from my own feelings.

I call BS on this one. You are trying to manipulate us into thinking your way. Time and time again I have read where you keep coming back to re-explain something that happened to slant things towards your side. You are that bullheaded to me. You seem to have this need to be right, vindicated, correct,righteous... Why is that?

Seriously, SP... You talk it but you don't walk it.

My sister was bashing my wife one night. I told her that I could appreciate her having an opinion but she was still talking about my wife and I would appreciate she not talk about her in that manner.

My friend was doing the same thing... told him to back off.

I told both of them that I was just as much to blame, if not more so, to the demise of the marriage.

You need to throw that scorecard away. I did that. No, it is not easy. It is too easy to slide back into old destructive habits because they are comfortable... they are familiar...

Yes, you need to retrain your brain. It might take some help to do that.

Feelings come from thoughts and beliefs. Thoughts and beliefs are under your control. Yes you are very normal to be angry. Look around at all the normal angry divorced people you see. Being like them is your CHOICE. People here are trying to show you a different way.

Part of your anger comes from your belief that you were a victim, and retraining your thoughts to understand and accept that you are not a victim will help you learn to change how you feel.

So keep arguing that your anger is justified and you'll be fighting for your right to be an angry bitter man. It is, after all, normal.

You need to do some GALing with people very different from those you grew up with and those you now hang out with. It's hard to see a different way when everyone around you agrees with you.

Do you see how trying not to have people mad at you has blown up in your face? I've pushed you to define your values, who Sp is, so that you know what things to take a stand on, risk anger for and what things you can let slide. That's important, Sp.

And I agree with Ad, retraining your thoughts can help you rise above victim mode.

There is some golden advise in this thread!

You can do this suckerpunch, Be the best person/father you can be and she will notice it! Law of attraction...

Today is a rainy one. I am going to spend it REALLY reflecting on what I have been told here. I spent lastnight reading through old emails between wife and I. It has given me a renewed focus on the role I played in the downfall of the marriage.

Today, I will start to focus on changing the way I see things.

So, here is what I have come to realize about myself......

I need to make more changes, and I need to make them a permanent part of me. If helpful caring people like you can tell that these are real world issues that I have, simply by engaging me on the internet, it's clearly a real problem that I need to deal with. I have come to grips with that. I argue. I love to be right. I do try to control and manipulate when I think I am not in that position. My hurt is also a problem, because I resort to anger when dealing with it. I need to change the way I deal with being hurt. If you hurt me, I immediately want to hurt you back as qucikly as possible. That is not healthy, and it has caused a lot more hurt and damage in my life. I wish to be in more control of my anger, not that I am full of rage, but because I do know it does effect the way I see and deal with things. It usually results in a negative reaction. I am completely cognitive of these things now. I get it. With that said, I think admitting that it's a problem will only be my first step. How I go about making the changes will be the real work. I want to do this work. I want to be a better person than I was before coming here. I think I am already improved in many areas, but not nearly enough as I need to be. I don't have the expectation that I will be able to live my life like Ghandi, but I am sure I can learn to better control my feelings. I am sure at this point, that this played a major role in the demise of my marriage. Granted, there were many many things that we both did to put us in this position. I sincerely believe there will be no reconciliation of our marriage. It is too far gone. It is already to the point, almost 9 months later that I have somewhat forgotten what our connection ever really was. Wife is now publicly involved with the OM. That alone would make things almost impossible for me to come to grips with. I said at one point, that a PA, would be my deal breaker. A public PA, is something I am not sure that I have the ability to let go of. I still feel that to be the case today. On top of that, wife is branching out and furthering herself into this new relationship with a completely different network of friends and family.

I will carry on, and be the person I want to become, first and foremost. I will try my best to put my daughter first in regards to dealing with my marriage and our future, for all parties. I would like to become more amicable with wife, solely for the benefit of my daughter, so she can grow and have the best possible opertunity to avoid the damage that will undoubtedly come from a divorce. I simply need to do the best I can, from now on.

as LA Bug said, you need new people in your life.

We're not saying you have to "break up" with your old friends, but it's almost impossible to change your ways if you don't change your environment.

IF you were a smoker trying to quit, you'd have to hang out with friends who did not smoke much, right?

well your family and friends have a negative world view. Does not make them incapable of love or joy but it great lessens it.

When a good thing happens, they expect it to end soon, or that a bad thing will come next, like the other shoe will drop. Their joy is tainted by fear or distrust.

But when they are hurt or angry b/c of a bad or painful event, their pain is total. 100%. Their anger is NOT mitigated by joy or mixed in with hope.

They feel the negatives in full force...which is sad and not healthy.

You need new tools and to be in a supportive environment you need new people in your life. Someone you can call on, be around and learn from.

I think you have already met some.

Reach out to them.

I am going to do just that....enjoy my friends and family, but reach out to the positive people in my life. Very good idea, 25!

SP... I find that you and have similar traits in regards to anger issues. Hurt me and I wanted to hurt you back more. I win.

My W sent me a book by Stephen Covey... "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People"... I highly suggest reading it. This book has had an amazing impact on my life. It has taught me how to think and look at things differently. It is proactive versus reactive thinking.

I found that a lot of anger comes from reactive decisions. Anger does not, from my experience, lead to good solid decision making. What I have learned is that I don't always have to be right. I don't always have to win. I have learned that most situations can result in win/win...

I got to the root of a lot of the anger I felt. I am still working on it. You have made a big step in coming to grips with your issue of anger.

Let's work on that...

Tonight, I am taking daughter to a cool sushi restaurant with some family members. It is supposed to be really fun, and daughtger LOVES sushi. She is planning on taking her own chop sticks and everything....I know, a 6yo. who loves sushi????

haha

Really missing wife today. I cannot even express how much. I think it might be part of coming to grips with this separation/divorce being very very permanent.

I really wish I could reach out, tell her how much I miss her and all the things I am feeling. I have so much that I want to say. But, I know I can't. I just have to let her go down her own path, and I need to find my direction as well....it just SUX. It really REALLY does.

Your feelings have been so masked by your anger, you haven't really allowed yourself to feel the hurt until recently.

It gets better.

What are your plans to GAL with new and different people?

Thought any more about IC?

The hurt has been overwhelming lately. I am just sad, always sad. Even when I laugh and enjoy a time with a friend, I am sad underneath. I just feel extremely empty. Wife was here yesterday to pick up D. I asked her a couple questions about OM, specifically about children. I asked if he had kids of his own. She said he has a great relationship with his Ex-Wife and spends lots of time with his Ex-step children. I found that a little comforting, being that he is also spending a lot of time with my daughter now. It's good to know that he (at least) seems to like kids....but in the end, I wasn't mad hearing her somewhat admit to being involved with this guy. I just felt sad and empty. I wish I could make those feelings stop. I wish so dearly that she would glance back and give our marriage a second chance, but I feel with my heart that she never will. I know her pretty well, and I don't believe she will ever look back. That is sad. That makes me feel empty.

I have thought a little more about IC, but I keep remembering how lackluster my previous couseling sessions have been. I have not been overly impressed. Perhaps I just had poor counselors, but overall my experiences have been un-impressive. I have got very little out of them. Actually, I get much more insight and focus here, than I have had in counseling. Maybe I just need to try again with someone different.

As far as GAL, I am not so sure that I am going in the right direction with the new group of people I have been hanging with lately.....lots of drama....lots of stuff I just don't like. It's a singles clique, and to be honest, I am more of a married clique sort of guy. I just don't fit well into that group of people any longer, without having a partner to do activities with. I have not been very successful finding positive people who have lots of time to share. That is my problem. I need a lot of interactions right now, otherwise I get very down very quickly. It's been a little discouraging, but I am trying everyday to GAL and find a path. It just seems with this huge load of sadness and emptiness holding me down, finding that path is considerably harder to do.

Suckerpunch, you've been dealt some pretty heavy blows here. I have a suggestion: find some other people's threads that you can identify with and try to listen to the advice there. Your story and the advice from the forum sages is so helpful to me, but when I get 2x4s aimed at me I get defensive. So reading your story and others is sometimes more helpful to me that the attention I get on my personal sitch.

Here is some reaction to your story from a peer, though:
I know the feeling of "this is too far gone and it is certainly going to end." But try to take your focus off that. Present awareness is a good mindset. We don't know what the future holds. Literally, you could die in a car wreck today and die married. So when you catch yourself thinking or feeling about the future or what if or even about the past, take a deep breath and literally guide your thoughts into the present moment by telling yourself where you are, physically. "I am suckerpunch and I am at work sitting in a chair."
I have done that a couple of times. The deep breath is helpful. The intentional thought is helpful. It is a little brain/will exercise that takes a moment but it begins to re-wire some neural pathways away from negative ruts our minds are used to trodding. Willingness to try new things is the key to unlock change and freedom.

God bless suckerpunch.

^^^Good stuff, danielf.

Thank you, Danielf :-)

Been feeling very up the last few days. Wife is off on vacation, I have daughter.

I am a little disapointed that W is not spending more time with daughter. She has had her with sitters several nights lately, so she could go out socializing with OM. She asked me to watch Daughter the night before she went on vacation so she could go away to a concert with OM. She also asked me to take D 2 days prior to our parenting plan so that she could go on this vacation with her friends. upon her return, she is going to ANOTHER concert party with OM. She is really running to find her hapiness! It hurts my feelings for daughter. She has officially become 2nd most important part of wifes life.

With that said, I have been engaging wife in a very upbeat and cheery manner, always happy, always affirming and validating, always positive. I haven't been overdoing it, but I have been consistently getting something in there. Tonight she phoned to speak with D, who was in the restroom. I spoke with W for a bit, asked her about her trip, the weather, how friends we doing. She complained about being a 5th wheel to "couples". She said she wished to go out dancing, but her friends would rather not. So, she is going out alone. I jokingly said, "well you could have taken me along. I would have danced with you". She replied by saying, you would have just wanted to stay in the room. I ended it by saying "maybe in the last few years, but I sure feel like dancing right now. Here is daughter. Have a great night. Talk to you soon", and I passed the phone off.

That interaction was mostly for me. It made me feel good, because that is what I wished to say, whether Wife liked it, hated it or didn't care. It made me feel good to say it.

My GAL activities this weekend were very fun. I stayed super busy, perhaps drank a little more than I should have, socialized non-stop and had an excellent time with friends and family. This coming weekend I will be spending some time with 2 new people I met, both women, and neither a romantic insterest. Looking forward to some positive interaction with new people.....feeling pretty good this week....but always bracing for the inevitible. Life is moving forward.

Hi sp, I've read your story. I see that the way you handle conflict is the same as me. I tend to get defensive and try to manipulate the situation to my own. I also tend to proof that I am right.

After my own bd, I realized that how much I didn't validate my wife feelings. I hope that you will be able to overcome it as I will definitely work on mine too.

I just have to ask, do you expect W to spend every moment with your D and have no breaks?

It's good that you're getting a life. If you feel like dancing, maybe there's a meet-up group that has dances or lessons on a new kind of dance.

No, I don't expect her to spend every minute with D. However, wife only has daughter 14 or 15 days a month. She is quite literally, a "part time Mom", and I DO FEEL leaving daughter with a baby sitter for 4 or 5 of those days is a lot, or at least extremely out of the norm. I could probably count on my fingers how many times we have left daughter with a sitter in the last 5 years. Not to say that is good either, but it is a drastic comparison to what she is used to.

thanks for the explanation, that makes it clearer.

slightly funny interaction with W today. As most of you know, she has had me completely blocked on Facebook for quite some time. Today, whe scrolling through my news feed, I notice a nice big picture of wife. She was wearing a yellow bikini, posing in front of a pool in Vegas. Several people had commented on it. So, I sent her a quick text saying, "I am not sure why, but your bikini pic just showed up on my facebook. You look drop dead gorgous. Hope you are having a great time". She acted surprised by saying, "Really". I also said, "I am not sure if that was kind or cruel...haha" She simply replied, "well thanks"....She later added "lol sorry"....then the picture was gone from me being able to view it.

Ahhh games...who doesn't lovem!!!! :-/

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

I jokingly said, "well you could have taken me along. I would have danced with you".

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

"I am not sure why, but your bikini pic just showed up on my facebook. You look drop dead gorgous. Hope you are having a great time".

These are both full-blown pursuit. They are also sending your W mixed signals, because you're waffling between cold/ indifferent and chasing her down the street. You need to be between those- friendly neighbor. It's OK to tell her she looks nice if she's wearing a new dress. It's not OK to tell her she looks hot in a bikini. One is friendly neighbor and the other is drooling pursuer, LOL!

I had blocked W on FB for a while for my sanity. Then one time I checked in on her and her recent post was checking in w OM at a restaurant. I unfriended her. When she noticed, she asked why and I just told her it was unhealthy for me to check in on her and it wasn't meant to send a message.

As, good point!

Daniel, that's rough!

4th of July was eventful. I had lots of friends and family come out to enjoy the weekend, more BBQing and campfires than one man should ever have in 4 short days!

Daughter had a BLAST! She played from sun up till well past dark every single day. That little girl is full speed 24/7. Oh, how I dread the teen years with her

A little light contact with wife during the last week, nothing worth mentioning tho. We are now friendly with each other, but share very little other than idol chit chat prior to speaking with Daughter on the phone. Wife went to a concert, left daughter with me. She went to vegas, left daughter with me. She did return on the 4th of July, but ended up staying at OM's house for the remainder of the weekend. Tons of pictures of them together on his facebook, none on hers. So, I am suspecting she isn't letting others, outside of her new group of friends, know that she is dating this man. I've seen his pictures and can get a snapshot of his life. She should be embarrassed...kind of a loser. She doesn't even remotely appear to fit in with the group either. W is a total where's Waldo in all the pictures. It's strange. Something else I find strange is, it's been 10 days since she has seen daughter. She did however phone her about every other day to chat for a couple min, sometimes seconds.....not in my wildest imagination would I have thought she would be okay with that. Saddens me to no end. My heart breaks for daughter.

I invited wife out on Saturday for a campfire with friends and family. I figured she would want to attend, if for no other reason, to see daughter. But, she declined by saying, I figured it would be easier on everyone if I was gone. I simply said we all missed seeing her face, and I hope she enjoys her weekend. The conversation ended.

Wife picks daughter up today for her week visit. I will definitely be sad when she leaves.

Sounds like a nice 4th

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

Daughter had a BLAST! She played from sun up till well past dark every single day. That little girl is full speed 24/7. Oh, how I dread the teen years with her

My daughter was a pistol when she was growing up. I was really dreading her teen years as well. Now she's 16 and is just amazing, she has a vibrant personality that really draws people in and she is a very mature, responsible young lady. With no prodding from W or me she went out and got a job and has been working hard all summer. I can see now that all of the characteristics that made me think she was going to be a wild teen were instead indications of what a strong, independent, hard-working, make-it-happen person she was going to grow up to be! So embrace your D's personality, don't try to slow her down

I don't think I could slow her down, if I tried!....haha

I love her little personality. She's a firecracker!

Really struggling today about daughter being placed in second position. As you know, wife just got back after being gone for 10 full days. The only contact she had with daughter were a few short phone calls. So, yesterday W gets to have daughter at 3:00pm. They go to the beach, have a picnic, fun stuff and some cute pictures. Wife even texted me a couple pics and added "daughter is such a funny sweet little girl. We are doing a good job with her".

I log on to facebook around 10:00pm and wife is already out at the nightclub with OM. He is posting pics CONSTANTLY on his facebook so it is very easy to get a play by play of her activity. The thing that bothers me is, daughter is AGAIN left behind with a baby sitter so wife can go out and party with her new found friends and OM. I know it is not in daughters best interest to be left with a sitter and to be constantly unsure of where she is even going to sleep that night. It just saddens me to no end.

At this point, and maybe some of you can tell me if it would be worthwhile, I am collecting dates and pictures of wife when she is out drinking and partying while daughter is left at home with a baby sitter. Not sure if that will mean anything in court when the time comes...would like some input on this. I don't want daughter to have a part time mom who doesn't even do her "part time" parenting. I fully intend to fight for legal custody when the time comes.

Having seen other people in this situation (spouse with OP)... All I am going to tell you is that you might come across as a vengeful spiteful man in court. My friend went through this with her husband and the judge said that as long as the child's welfare was not threatened that there is nothing she could do.

I don't think I can have an opinion on the parenting part because I have no children of my own. I have a SD that I love dearly but she never lived with us so it is no where near the same thing.

From a personal perspective, you come across as angry and jealous to me. I get the feeling that if you were not snooping around FB, none of this would be an issue. QUIT LOOKING AT FACEBOOK! Why do you keep wounding yourself? Seriously.

You should fight for equal custody. That is your duty as a a father. However, if you use your daughter as a weapon in your D, I would almost guarantee that you will not be happy you opened up that can of worms. Ask my friend... Judges take dim views of that stuff.

I wouldn't use my daughter as a weapon! I am not jealous at all, just sad that daughter is being left behind so much. As far as equal custody, there really isn't an "equal" custody in my state. You can have 50/50 parenting plan, but one party is granted legal custody. That is all that I would fight for. I want a 50/50 parenting plan and nothing else. I think wife feels the same way.

I was dealt a hard blow this afternoon, that I wasn't expecting. My family had, for lack of a better word, an "intervention" with me today. I have known for a very long time that my sisters and my brother want my Wife GONE. I feel my Mom leans that way as well. They want her out of our business, out of their faces, away from our customers eyes. Today was a straw that broke the camels back. My mother in law came to babysit daugther while wife was at work. She also brought along my sister in law and her child. They spent the day by the pool, playing in the park, that sort of thing. Appartently at some point they did a little gossiping at pool side with some of our customers. they protrayed my family in poor light, talked a little sh!t basically. Word got back, and it absolutely drove my brother crazy. He is very upset that the business is paying to support my wife, and in turn she is bringing in family and guests to use our facilities, and this is how they show appreciation. I totally understand his concern. I did however ask him and my sisters to understand my position, but they are dead set on asking my wife to move out very soon. They have had enough. This situation has been going on for 8 months and any form of positive movement forward in our relationship has never been present. It was a very emotional conversation, and one that I really did not need at this time. I am devastated today, very upset. I pleaded for their support, but they are putting the business aspect in front of my concerns and wishes.

I do see both sides. For me, it makes sense to keep wife close by. It is saving me financially, as well as allowing me more access to my daughter. It also enables DBing a little better, as my wife isn't looking at me like a tyrant who put her out on the streets. On the flip side,I see my families perspective. Here is this woman who left their sibling, yet reaps all the benefits of being supported in a nice accomdation, WHILE she proceeds to party it up and engage with OM. Of course they want her out. they probably want to set her on fire!

So, here I am in complete turmoil as to what I should do. I am just at my wits end....any thoughts?.....

I should add, I set up a time to speak with wife tomorrow. I figured I should be the one to break the news. Not really sure what I am going to say.....

I think I have things somewhat settled down with my family, at least for the time being. I am still meeting with wife today to discuss some things, mostly in regards to daughter. I also feel like I should bring up wifes belongings that were left in the house. It have been over 8 months, and she still has a huge amount of stuff left behind. I wish to have a garage sale to clear some of the things out, but obviously I shouldn't sell off the things she wishes to have for herself. Would it be out of line to ask her to pick up the remainder of her things? She would need to store them somewhere because she doesn't have much room, but at this point in the game I don't think she should be storing them here. I think I need to start looking for more closure. I need to be able to move on with my life and find my own happiness, somewhere, somehow.....

I really would like some thoughts about all of my concerns. I have been spinning hard the last couple days. I just don't know what to do, what to say. DBing is not bringing W and I closer. If anything, we are still gaining distance. Wife seems to be pulling back from our daughter too, to spend more and more time with OM. It breaks my heart when daughter says she misses Mommy. I am extremely down in the dumps again. I am really grieving the loss of my family at this point. I just can't pull myself out of it this time. I just want to pull the blinds and lock the doors. So sad right now. I need some help. I need some direction....ugh!

You're focusing on things you have no control over.

Is DB making you a better man?

You and W are going to move further away (emotionally) from each other. You're getting a D.

About your W's stuff, you're going to take time in the busiest part of your season to have a garage sale? If it bothers you, box it up and put it somewhere, then tell her she can come and get it.

I went back to your first couple of posts:

Quote:

On top of that, my wife does not want to change her ways of partying and socializing. I guess in reality there is nothing wrong with that. She has been extremely loyal to me throughout our relationship and she is a fantastic mother. I just worry that she can be put into "single type" situation that would not be good for her. I also feel that she party's a little too often. Perhaps, most of the problem is just my own insecurity. I think most people would consider us the sarcastic bickering couple. We nit pick each other constantly. Really, I guess our biggest problem is just engaging each other and communicating our needs and feelings. We tend to walk on each others feelings instead of lifting them up.

Your W likes to have a good time and socialize, and now that she has someone who will do that with her, she may do it more for awhile. Your W hasn't changed and her sociability is probably one of the things the drew you to her.

And again you say, "She is a fantastic mother." I don't know what that means to you but you can be a fantastic parent and not spend every waking moment with your child. In fact, it takes some amount of adult time to remain a fantastic parent.

You also said you nit-pick each other constantly.

That is true, at least on your end. It's not productive, let it go.

Originally Posted By: labug

You're focusing on things you have no control over.

Is DB making you a better man?

I am not sure if "DBing" is making me a better man. But yes, I am much more aware of my short comings, and I am trying to improve myself in that regard. I feel the two things are separate, but I agree they must connect. I do beleive I can become a better man without my wife. However, I am still trying to hold on to hope that my marriage will survive this. Right now, things aren't looking so good for my marriage. Actually since BD, they never have. How long do I hold on to that? How long do I let things continue to go along very awkwardly? She is literally right under my nose making a new life for herself. Shouldn't I be doing the same? It is tough, with a constant reminder that she and my daughter are right here, like they are under a glass cabinet in a store I can't shop in. I wish to reconnect, but I can't. I don't know how. We don't even talk anymore, unless it is in regards to daughter. How can that be? We were together for 12 years, shared family, shared friends, shared our inner most secrets. Now we are complete strangers?.....I know, its normal. It just hurts very deeply today for some reason.

Originally Posted By: labug

You and W are going to move further away (emotionally) from each other. You're getting a D.

This was the same thing that my family brought up. They said there has been no form or even an interest in reconciling between wife and I. Therefore, how long do we let it go with her living here, with us paying her utilities, putting a roof over her head, etc.? They said, "if she wants to be out on her own....she needs to go OUT ON HER OWN". There arguement is, she doesn't even know what it is like to be separated or indipendant. She needs a taste of reality, and I need to be able to keep my head together enough to work at my business and heal emotionally.

Originally Posted By: labug

About your W's stuff, you're going to take time in the busiest part of your season to have a garage sale? If it bothers you, box it up and put it somewhere, then tell her she can come and get it.

The thing is, summer is about the only real time we can have garage sales around here. Also, wifes stuff isn't something I can just box up and set aside. There are literally ROOMS FULL of stuff that need to be separated.

Originally Posted By: labug

I went back to your first couple of posts:

Quote:

On top of that, my wife does not want to change her ways of partying and socializing. I guess in reality there is nothing wrong with that. She has been extremely loyal to me throughout our relationship and she is a fantastic mother. I just worry that she can be put into "single type" situation that would not be good for her. I also feel that she party's a little too often. Perhaps, most of the problem is just my own insecurity. I think most people would consider us the sarcastic bickering couple. We nit pick each other constantly. Really, I guess our biggest problem is just engaging each other and communicating our needs and feelings. We tend to walk on each others feelings instead of lifting them up.

Your W likes to have a good time and socialize, and now that she has someone who will do that with her, she may do it more for awhile. Your W hasn't changed and her sociability is probably one of the things the drew you to her.

And again you say, "She is a fantastic mother." I don't know what that means to you but you can be a fantastic parent and not spend every waking moment with your child. In fact, it takes some amount of adult time to remain a fantastic parent.

You also said you nit-pick each other constantly.

That is true, at least on your end. It's not productive, let it go.

I guess you are right, La. The truth hurts, and I am just hurting. At least I am not turning that hurt into anger. That's a good sign. But, I do need to come into focus that she is probably gone forever. I just can't. I can't let go of it. I haven't been this sad since BD. I find myself crying about every hour or so, for no real reason. I never in a million years would have thought my emotions would dip back down to where they were in the beginning. I cannot believe that someone (wife) would be able to hurt me so deep emotionally. I want to tell her how much she means to me, how much I love her, how much I miss her...but I can't. DBing says I must "act as if". That is pretty hard right now. My whole life seems pretty hard right now.

SP, sorry to hear you're struggling! It's a cycle you've been through and may go through again, but you WILL emerge stronger!

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

I was dealt a hard blow this afternoon, that I wasn't expecting. My family had, for lack of a better word, an "intervention" with me today.

All I can say to this is they have some big darned cajones to pull a stunt like this when you're still hurting. Here's a novel idea, how about your family comes together to support you instead of telling you that YOU need to serve THEIR interests? Unbelievable. I would try to politely tell them that your decision is "X" (whatever that may be) and that you hope that everything they do moving forward is in support of your decision.

Quote:

I also feel like I should bring up wifes belongings that were left in the house. It have been over 8 months, and she still has a huge amount of stuff left behind. I wish to have a garage sale to clear some of the things out, but obviously I shouldn't sell off the things she wishes to have for herself. Would it be out of line to ask her to pick up the remainder of her things?

Not out of line at all. I did something similar with my W, asked her to set a date to get the rest of her cra... err, I mean "stuff"

out. I moved a lot of it into the garage beforehand.

Quote:

DBing is not bringing W and I closer. If anything, we are still gaining distance.

There is nothing that will bring a WAS closer to the LBS except the WAS. If you read the sitches here that have turned around, it was pretty much always due to a "revelation" that the WAS had after long months or years of being a cold, detached, unloving jerk. DB'ing is as much for you as for her. Make yourself into the spouse only a fool would leave. She may still leave, but if she does then she's a fool, and do you want to be married to a fool anyway?

Well put, As.

I did approach my family in a calm polite manner and asked for support and understanding. They didn't see things my way and it ended up getting ugly and emotional. That is probably a big source of my unhappiness today. My Mom is now on board to support me, and she will fend of my sibs for the time being.....it's sad, but that is the way my family works. They are not warm fuzzy people in regards to emotional support. They are more inclind to, "rip the band aid off" so the healing can begin, type of mindset.

I know what you are saying about the WAS not coming back unless the WAS has a revelation. I guess that is why the majority of these situations never turn around. The WAS just puts it beind them and slowly the relationship gets replaced and forgotten about.....sad

Going to speak with wife in 30 min. Actually a little terrified. I want to focus on speaking only about daughter, but I keep running these temp. check scenarios through my head. WHAT am I thinking?.....ugh....I just want the hurt to stop. I need to let go of her. I need to find my own happiness without wife. What is wrong with me....

Are you going to speak to her on the phone or in person? If on the phone, maybe write down two lists. One of things you want to or are okay with talking about, and the other is of things you know you should avoid.

If it's in person just write them down now anyway to help store them to your memory banks for 26 minutes from now.

-PM

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

Going to speak with wife in 30 min. Actually a little terrified. I want to focus on speaking only about daughter, but I keep running these temp. check scenarios through my head. WHAT am I thinking?.....ugh....I just want the hurt to stop. I need to let go of her. I need to find my own happiness without wife. What is wrong with me....

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with you. It is a natural reaction to a sitch like this. You love her, she is the mother of your daughter, it is only right to want to reconcile. Unfortunately, the situation is what is. The trick is, don't let her see you sweat. Remember what you've learned from DB/DR. Remember Sandi2's rules. You *know* in your head what you want to do will not work. Take charge of yourself and act in accordance with the principles of DB.

What are you doing to GAL?

What about your daughter?

I am not so sure if I am doing the right thing. I have been trying to follow DBing, but what if it's wrong? What if all I am doing is completely wrong, and I should be sharing my feelings with her more? <===== THAT is what I keep focusing on. In reality, I think DBing is the proper way to handle this, but I don't know for certain. It's just frusturating.

I will try to keep my focus on daughters issues, stay upbeat and avoid conflict at all costs. I think I may bridge into collecting her belongings, but I feel that might be pressure....thoughts?

Those DB guns you have in your holster? Stick to those for now. Don't let your injured heart rationalize something your brain is telling you not to do.

-PM

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

I am not so sure if I am doing the right thing. I have been trying to follow DBing, but what if it's wrong? What if all I am doing is completely wrong, and I should be sharing my feelings with her more? <===== THAT is what I keep focusing on. In reality, I think DBing is the proper way to handle this, but I don't know for certain. It's just frusturating.

I can emphasize. I have the same worries. I neglected her needs during our marriage and was distant, how can doing the same be right now? Well, in my case, I no longer have a choice, but I believe that being a simpering baby would not have helped my cause. Still, I wonder, what if instead of honoring her wish for space early one, what if I had made some grand gesture instead? I believe that stuff only works in the movies. In the real world, showing up on somebody's doorstep with Peter Gabriel blaring on the boombox is only going to get the cops called on you.

Have faith in the process.

Well, you all probably know how this ended up. I started off GREAT. Kept all of my focus on daughter and her needs. We discussed being better mutal coparents....Then, the relationship conversation started. It was so stupid of me to indulge in it, but once it got started I poured my heart out. Actually, I feel good about it. I want her to know how I feel, regardless of wether she is reciprocative or not. Just for the record, she is not. She has no desire what so ever to allow our relationship to rekindle. Trust me, I aksed...and asked...and asked. I guess it is what it is. To be honest, I think it may have given me a little more clarity, a little more closure. I KNOW I need to move on and just drop the rope. I need to let her go and not look back. She is gone...gone GONE.

I expressed to her why I am holding on and why it has been so difficult for me to let go. I told her I had unconditional love for her and would support her, regardless of where we end up. I let her know that I would continue holding on, and I would always cherish her. This is pretty bad stuff to be admitting on DB, but I had to get it off my chest and let her know how I truly felt, why I can't let go yet. She accepted it, cried a little and made it clear that her heart was no longer available to me. She has closed shop and moved on. It stung a little, but not as bad as I would have expected. It's more frusturating than anything. I don't get why she is unwilling to make any effort to try again. I just don't.

There was some conversation about settlements and divorce. I expressed to her that I don't want either, and therefore I am not going to pursue either. I will not facilitate her in that regard, but I told her I would not stand in her way if she chose to carry it through. Not much else was said about that.

There was some crying, some emotion...mostly from guilt I assume. There is obviously still some feeling there, just not romantic feeling. Wife feels that we never had, nor could we have in the future a fun loving relationship. She said we alsways had to have a 3rd party or another couple involved in all of our activities, which is true. I didn't know how to repsond to that. She also said that she doesn't want to take a chance on trying again, only to get hurt, which I understand. But, I also said that we would be taking a similar risk with ANY relationship we persued.....the rest is bla bla bla....You all know the punch lines

So, here I am wondering how I move forward, how I find happiness. What I have been doing so far isn't working, obviously. I just can't get there. I can't take my focus off of my wife and my marriage....HOW do I do that?...It's killing me.

What are you doing to GAL?

-PM

Originally Posted By: LeftCoastLBH

In the real world, showing up on somebody's doorstep with Peter Gabriel blaring on the boombox is only going to get the cops called on you.

Yeah... Ain't that the truth.

I am really struggling with getting a life. I am spending as much time with friends and family as I can, but I am not getting out of my old circles very much. I don't know what it is. I don't know if I am looking in the wrong places, or if I am just too picky about the people I socialize with. Perhaps that is the cause of some of my issues. Today, I feel almost as down as I did on BD. I am just IN the DUMPS!

I realize I need to GAL and start building my own future, but I just can't seem to get it together. Even when I am doing fun activities, I always have wife in the back of my mind. It's not healthy, but I don't know how to stop the cycle.

I was just out visiting with friends at a local bar. I know, probably not the best place to be right now, but I only had 2 beer. I was there more so for the companionship. But, here I am back at home, alone, and depressed as all get out....this is my life today.

Getting full, so please follow me here new thread

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

Originally Posted By: adinva

Moving (on) *forward* means being a whole independent person having a fulfilling life with or without your W. Making plans, being interesting,

I am independant, have been for 8 months, longer really, if you consider the time leading up to BD. I can take care of myself and make it through any obstacle I encounter, with the exception of getting over losing my W. I think my co-dependancy is minimal if any, at this point. I am making plans. I am doing a lot of activity, probably more today than in the past few years. I have never NOT been interesting. I am borderline on being the Dos XX's guy....haha

I am "fullfilled" in my life as a father, as a business owner, as a friend. I am fullfilled with the relationships I have and the things that I do, with one exception. I simply miss having someone to share it with, namely my wife. But perhaps I am only holding on to W, because I don't know anyone different. Maybe I have tunnel vision? I just don't know.

Originally Posted By: adinva

knowing people who don't know you as that poor guy who got sc@wed over by his W or some other variant of that.

I am lacking in this aspect. EVERYONE I know more than likely sees me this way, but at the same time I am not willing to replace my network of friends and family. I don't know how to change this. I don't know if it will ever change. I don't know if it really matters.

Originally Posted By: adinva

If you would consider dating (a) because your friends tell you constantly and you don't stand up to them for what you feel and need or (b) to "help you heal" or (c) while you are totally against it or (d) for any reason whatsoever connected to your previous relationship, don't do it. Those are terrible reasons to date. It seems like you know you're not ready and you question your own judgment on that, why?

I wouldn't date for ANY of those reasons. I do however find myself wanting someone to share time with, more and more every day. I am starting to have those idol thoughts about, " might be nice to date". I think my friends are seeing or feeling this too, and that is why they mention it. Perhaps I am at that point. I don't know. When do you know it's the right time? Do the romantic feelings for my wife need to be gone? I don't think that is every going to happen soon, probably ever, but at the same time I don't want to live my life alone. So, when does a person know when it's time to start jumping back in to the dating pool?

Originally Posted By: adinva

It sounds like you need to spend more time getting to know who you are irregardless of and independent of W, as long as it takes.

Hang in there...

I hear this kind of introspective advice a lot, and it gets lost on me. I am not sure if I am just not that in touch with my feelings and emotions, or if I am just a "man's man" or why. But, I don't get it. I feel that I already know who I am. I already know where I am going. I have zero plans to change my life completely in regards to where I live, how I work, who I socialize with. What is left to find? What sort of things am I supposed to be looking for? What kind of insight to my self do I need to find? If it has anything to do with self improvement, I get that. I am all in. I want to be a better person, better father, better spouse. I still need to work on it, but that is one thing I have FOUND. I would like some more input on this. I fear that maybe I am missing a large piece of introspect that I just don't get.

Just wanted to bring this to the fore.

I have never NOT been interesting. I am borderline on being the Dos XX's guy....

So what makes you interesting? Really, tell us. Maybe that will help you figure out thing to do more of or less of. May jog some things you haven't thought of.