I’ve been reading these forum posts for a few months now and have decided to make myself and my situation known in the hopes that I can get some well thought out input and advice as how to best work to save our marriage. Here's my situation.
Quick synopsis:
W is from overseas. About 3 years ago, she met some friends from her homeland and as the years have gone on, the group of friends has been growing. As she has become closer with her friends, they have begun coming with us on summer camping weekends. Instead of it being a time for our family as it used to be, it has slowly become more about the friends. These friends seem to be nice people, but they also like to drink a lot. Last camping trip resulted in warnings from park rangers on two consecutive nights that we would all be asked to leave if we didn’t quiet down. We have children who are in the middle of all of this as well. I don’t feel comfortable with all the drinking and cursing that our kids get to witness. It’s not a family vacation anymore. Voiced this to W and was told I was critical and not accepting.
W’s girlfriends started getting together at clubs for drinks. It started out as nights out with them only and W would return at 1am or so. Then it turned into 3am. Then it turned into staying over at a friend’s place. Once she came home drunk at 630am. Often the girls would bring spouses/fiancees/boyfriends. I never went because I am not a party boy and I was watching our kids.
One person that likes to go out with the friends is a single guy. No girlfriend with him that I have ever seen. He’s been on the camping trips too. Don’t know him well at all.
Long story short... I started becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the time that he spent with W. He has a kid same age/gender as ours. Play dates and sleepovers for the kids would happen. Instead of dropping them off and leaving, they hang out and talk for a couple/few hours or so. I am NEVER around when this happens. I have NEVER dropped off/picked up kids at all. It ALL happens when I am out of town on business.
I had started feeling disconnected from W this summer. Like we were beginning to travel different paths. I told my W that I thought she was unhappy this summer. In doing so, I think I started a brush fire. Pushed her to see a marriage counselor with me. Told her I didn’t feel comfortable about this guy. Dug into email and phone records. Pushed and talked more. Talked to family. Talked to friends. In short EVERYTHING I should not have done.
Fast forward.
W now says ILYBNILWY. Told me she feels trapped. If we didn’t have kids, would ask for a separation. Our marriage has ALWAYS been a bad one. Feels nothing inside for me. Doesn’t see a fix. Has been to counseling with me but no help. Parties more than ever before. Gets drunk when partying. Spends lots of money on new wardrobe. Wants to hang with a younger crowd...
I’ve seen a counselor since August working on jealousy issues. Doing MUCH better. I read DR. Been giving space as much as I know how. She doesn’t tell me what she’s doing or where she’s been except on rare occcasions. She texts but usually just logistics. Will call rarely. Will email. When I’m out of town, for up to two weeks at a time, I hardly hear from her. We DO speak at home. Been in separate BR since November.
She accuses me of violating her trust by digging. Will ask me where I have been when I’m being mysterious. I can’t pose the same question to her. Gets uptight even if I say “Hey! What have you been up to/doing?”
Obviously, I’m trying to do what I can to pull us back together.
Seems to me like I’ve got a MLC on my hands. Trying to avoid having a WAW too.
There HAVE been glimpses of hope, but I’m really struggling here. What I am hoping to do is STOP talking to ANYONE except you guys. I need people to talk to about this, but I can’t talk to friends or family. W says it puts more distance between us cause she feels I am rigging a jury.
Can you guys help me out here? Thanks.
As time runs along, I'll post more to fill in blanks and bring you up to date on my latest experiences. There is NO WAY I can do this in one post.
Currently, I am out of town again on a trip. I left on Thursday. It is now Monday and I have heard from my wife a total of three times. The first time, she texted me about our youngest daughter's birthdate in my calendar being incorrect. She did add
to it. That was nice to see. I jokingly let her know that I actually DO know our daughter's birthday, I wanted to get a "head start" on it.
(My daughter had wanted her birthday coded in my calendar with her favorite color. When I did that, the date must have gotten changed.) That was Thursday.
The next was a phone call. Logistics stuff only. Got a kind of soft "bye" on the end. The kind of way she used to talk to me when she would tell me she loved me. I always took it as a signal of an open door to comm with her again. That's stuff entirely in my head and she has never told me that this is what she means by it, so it may mean nothing at all. That was again on Thursday.
Last comm was an email that I received on Sunday. It had no greeting or signature. Only a body. One sentence pertaining to a request for receipts. Other than that... nothing.
Our kids spent Saturday night at the guy's place with his daughter. W went out with girlfriends again. W had told me they would be going out for a birthday. Haven't heard anything after that about it. I won't ask and she probably won't volunteer. As I mentioned earlier, these outings have a tendency to happen at dance clubs and I think dance clubs are a recipe for disaster for a marriage. We had a MAJOR setback at a club together last week.
I'll get home on Tuesday morning. Wife is scheduled to leave town the next day to see relatives for a week. That will make it two weeks apart.
W had complained before that I always wanted to talk too much on the phone. That I would get upset when she didn't want to talk. A 180 I am doing is NOT calling her. It is a struggle for me, but I have answered her call and responded to her text and email and that is it. This is the first time I have done that. It will be five days with no comm from me except to respond to her pinging me.
Thanks for the bump, IAP.
Came home from my trip. Kissed my wife in greeting. Didn't turn her cheek to me like she has in the past, but didn't return my kiss either. Our youngest was there though and that probably factored in. just this past year, we used to be very affectionate to each other. it was kind of a game that when they would see us kissing, the kids would try to separate us.
No feelings of warmth from her the whole day. Pretty cold to me actually. I feel like we are friends who aren't even close enough to confide in one another.
I did find via the grapevine that she was sick this weekend.
I drop her off at the airport today. I asked if she would like to do lunch before and got a negative reply. She wants to sleep in. That will set her up with a late breakfast, so she won't be interested in lunch.
This will be the first time she has left town on her own since we had our kids. They are accustomed to me being gone quite a bit. They are going to miss her. She will call, but I'm pretty sure it will be to check up on them only.
This disconnect between us has been running now for about 6 months. I just don't see it going on like this forever. Trying to keep my chin up, keep a PMA and GAL. It's difficult. My life has been my wife and our kids. I'm reading The Power of Positive Thinking by Dr.Norman Vincent Peale. Lots of good advice. It really helps me keep my spirits up.
W now says ILYBNILWY. Told me she feels trapped. If we didn’t have kids, would ask for a separation. Our marriage has ALWAYS been a bad one. Feels nothing inside for me. Doesn’t see a fix. Has been to counseling with me but no help.
Typical WAS talk. Don't take it too personally. That's the way she feels now, but it could change later.
I’ve seen a counselor since August working on jealousy issues. Doing MUCH better. I read DR. Been giving space as much as I know how.
OK, good. How about your 180's, what faults have you had in your R and M and what are you doing differently?
She accuses me of violating her trust by digging.
But you admit that you HAVE been digging. Has it stopped?
Obviously, I’m trying to do what I can to pull us back together.
That's not what DB'ing is about, it's about working on you, making yourself the H only a fool would leave and giving her time and space to work things through. The more you try to pull her the more she will resist and pull away.
Seems to me like I’ve got a MLC on my hands. Trying to avoid having a WAW too.
She already is a WAW. She may be there physically, but mentally she already checked out.
I need people to talk to about this, but I can’t talk to friends or family. W says it puts more distance between us cause she feels I am rigging a jury.
Yes, that is exactly how the WAS perceives it when the LBS starts talking to friends and family.
The next was a phone call. Logistics stuff only. Got a kind of soft "bye" on the end. The kind of way she used to talk to me when she would tell me she loved me. I always took it as a signal of an open door to comm with her again.
Don't overanalyze every word she says and how she says it. I know you want to see progress wherever you can, but you've got to accept that it's just not there. You're not going to see progress for months. Be patient. Believe me, if she wanted to open that door again you would know it. She'll make it clear, it won't be just the way she says "bye".
As I mentioned earlier, these outings have a tendency to happen at dance clubs and I think dance clubs are a recipe for disaster for a marriage. We had a MAJOR setback at a club together last week.
How was the club the trigger for this? Please explain, sounds like there might be something in this story that would help explain the dynamics of your M.
A 180 I am doing is NOT calling her. It is a struggle for me, but I have answered her call and responded to her text and email and that is it.
Believe me, this was tough for me too. I would sit there waiting for W to send me an email or text. But when she did (and it was rare) it was always something disappointing- kid logistics mostly. You've got to let it go. Quit contacting her and quit expecting her to contact you.
Came home from my trip. Kissed my wife in greeting. Didn't turn her cheek to me like she has in the past, but didn't return my kiss either.
Stop the kissing, clearly she doesn't want that. It's pressure and pursuit. No hugs either. Let her initiate all physical contact.
This disconnect between us has been running now for about 6 months. I just don't see it going on like this forever.
Sounds like what you've been doing isn't working. Time to change the dynamics. Try something different and monitor the results. Read Sandi's DB tips (sticky at top of forum) and LIVE them. Read DR, work out your 180's and baby steps. Settle in for a long haul!
For the past 6 months, I have been going over things that I have done to drive my wife to this point in our marriage. Of course, she does a pretty good job of pointing out my shortcomings. It doesn't take long to see a grocery list of things that I could change. I have been making changes to many of them, but I am not perfect and will backslide at times.
Some of the stuff I have been accused of:
Steamrolling my way in every major purchase decision we make. When we were looking to purchase our first home, I insisted that we have a stand alone property. My wife was looking at condos, but I was not open to that. We could not afford a single family home, so we opted for a mutil family and lived in one unit, saving money for the purchase of our present home. We are upside down in the rental because of the real estate bust. My wife is very bitter that we are invested in that property. It is a lot of work (she handles leases and I handle maintenance), and it just breaks even. She wishes she had never seen the place. The home we are in now is nice. We looked at many. She found it, but I didn't like it from photos. When I saw it in person, I liked it a lot. My memory says she was very excited about it as well, but she has told me she just wanted it so we could stop looking.
I have champaign taste. I tend to spend more than I can get away with because I insist on high quality. Improvements to our home have been very expensive. They turn out very well, but my wife doesn't want to spend that much money. I push and she gives in. I could go on, but you get the idea.
I used to call my wife multiple times through the day because I was bored and wanted to talk. She was my best friend. My job can be quite lonely because you are never in the same location for long and the people you work with are constantly changing. It's difficult to get to know others well enough to have meaningful relationships with them. My wife would complain that she didn't want to talk. I would take it personally. I might no say anything about it, but she could tell i was upset. Of course everything this would happen it would make her not want to pick up the phone.
In my interactions with our children, I was often very disconnected. Our oldest child has been a challenge. One psychologist is thinking she may have been misdiagnosed ADHD when she may really be dealing with autism. In the beginning, I wouldn't listen to my wife about how to deal with the kids. I knew the right way of doing things and it was to kill ants with sledgehammers. Lots of fights over this. I was wrong and have admitted it and apologized, but the damage was done.
I could go on with more but won't the 180's I have done lately? I have stopped pressing for my way in every purchase decision we make. I often will ask my wife what she wants and I will validate her decision and go with it. I don't make any purchases without her input. We agree before the purchase. My wife is a spendthrift, so I have begun making sure I use all the discounts I can find before I buy ANYTHING.
I have a newfound relationship with our kids. This is partly because of our marriage problems, but mostly it's because of my IC sessions and me recognizing that I have always held myself and others up to too high a standard. I have really pulled a 180 here, and I know my wife can see it. She has mentioned it to the counsellor.
When on trips, I no longer call her every day. In fact, I hardly call her at all. I have been attempting to not go totally dark, but get very dim. At first this seemed to have a positive effect. Now it just seems to give her more time away from me which she has told me she likes. I was actually told by her that when I leave for work she breathes a sigh of relief.
Another 180 is not asking her what she's been doing or what she's been up to. She has gotten VERY reactive if I say anything even remotely reflecting that I am curious about her activities or or what she has done during her day. I feel that SH thinks I am big brother. That, of course would be attributed to jealousy. Jealousy leads us into dance clubs and I will save that for another post.
You are right. I DO read into communications. I look for any sign of life that I can because either there is none, or I don't recognize it when it is there. The kisses were my "act as if". Guess I don't understand. She DID tell me I could have kissed her goodbye.
Thanks for your open and frank input. I really don't know what I am doing. I'm considering calling up one of the DB coaches, but we run such tight and transparent books (a healthy thing, I feel) that it will be immediately evident to my wife that I am talking with them. I have not given her DR and have no intentions of doing so.
AS, I just started looking through your original posts from when you first signed on here with your crisis. The small amount of your writings that I have read seems very well thought out. Almost as though the whole situation really didn't seem much of a challenge to you.
I have a tendency to look for instant results, also tend to react quickly instead of respond slowly. I know what I want, so I look for ANYTHING to tell me that what I desire is on its way. These qualities will not serve me well in this situation, and although I know that, it is still a struggle for me. With my wife still living here, I find it challenging to disconnect. I have read that "Detatch" is to disconnect from the emotional roller coaster but without withdrawing. I am searching for ways to show that I am still here, but without pursuing. I liken it to trying to feed a bird from the palm of your hand. Any attempt to acquire them results in flight.
My wife has been out of town for almost a week now. She has contacted me several times since leaving. Mostly via text, but I did have a relatively lengthy phone call with her regarding her dad. I made sure not to push my perspective. I listened intently and gave her support and recognition for how well she has handled things. Her father suffers from depression and can be quite an emotional load on her. I have always stood beside her in how she deals with him.
Yesterday, she contacted me several times via text. One thing she shared was some pictures taken of her at a museum that I have always wanted to see. I asked her if she had seen everything there. She told me no, and that she figured she would save that for me and the kids. I felt that was good to hear, but reminded myself not to put a lot of weight on that statement. Today, I have not heard a word from her.
Her computer went into the shop the day she left town. I retrieved it for her and was going to set it up so that it would be ready for her when she returned. In the setup, I started having to enter passwords and stuff like that. You know, all the crap you have to enter when setting up from ground zero. I ended up telling her that I was going to leave it all for her. That I wanted her to be pleased with how it was set up. My intention is that she will have no doubt that I am not digging under the hood on her computer. Some people may say that I'm sticking my head in the sand, but I just can't see what good will come from me finding something that I, and our two daughters will not want to find. Part of me wants concrete evidence, but part of me beleives that if I ever found anything that would ensure the demise of our relationship and our family. I suffer from swings in my feelings on this subject.
AS, I feel we live in a parallel universe. in your posts, I hear myself. Been keeping the house in ship shape. Did laundry for the first time in about 12 years! Nothing turned into doll clothing! I have found an increasing workload coming down on me at home. In the past, my wife assumed most of the duties around the house. That was definitely a shortcoming on my part. It's a 180 for me to be SO involved in taking care of everything around here. It feels good, though, and it helps keep my mind off of the things that bother me. It also gives me a sense of well being and accomplishment.
On a good note, (baby step, maybe?) my wife asked if I would like to schedule a couples massage with her when she returns. We used to do that on a regular basis followed by lunch. I think I will wait to see if she wants to follow up with more later. Then maybe I can call it a baby step. Right now, we sleep in separate rooms. She won't let me see her unclothed and she has removed her ring. At the massages, we stairs down to nothing, so maybe she's peeking out of her shell a bit. I guess time will tell. I've read here that time is my friend. I spend my time reminding myself to remove negative thoughts from my mind and replace them with positive thoughts instead. Looks for things to give thanks for.
Still in limbo land with the moderators, so I can't see anything from my last posts. I'll try to not be redundant.
AS, you inquired as to the night club. You are absolutely correct that this is a major ingredient in the turmoil that is our marriage.
As you can see, my wife is ten years younger than I. I think this plays a big part in our disconnect. I come from an extremely conservative family. Some may say downright boring. I have never been one who felt comfortable at parties. I was kept away from that crowd by my parents. I was raised in a very sheltered environment. My wife, however, comes from a broken home. Her parents split when she finished high school, but we all know the dynamics of disjunction were there.
Where she grew up, the city was entirely walkable. No need for autos. You can drink and walk home from the club/pub. She and her sibling didn't have a set time to come home. They were pretty much latch key kids and had no curfew. I believe that this has a lot to do with the culture, but also the family falling apart. My wife showed signs of missing her European ways when we met up with some of her friends about 13 years ago. When we met up with them, her conduct changed remarkably. The get together was pretty much about drinking beer, shots and reminiscing about the good ole days. She was 25 then. What surprised me was her smoking while drinking. She NEVER smoked. She eventually ended up sitting outside, crying, with me wondering what to say to her. It turned out, she was missing her life with her friends back in Europe. Again, this was 13 years ago. Never saw anything like this from her again.
Now that she has these new friends, it has become common place to go out. It started with "I am getting together with the girls". They would meet up at a bar our social club, have some drinks, chit chat, do whatever girls do. Later, this turned into "I'm going out with my friends". The group now included the girls and their husbands/fiancées. I never went because I was taking care of our kids.
The latest twist is for everyone to go out to bars/nightclubs. I told her that I feel those places are just for girls to see and be seen and for guys to try to pick up girls. Of course, she vehemently denied this and informed my that I needed to lighten up. The girls just "like to dance". I went out with her alone one time to one of these clubs. Of course, I didn't really feel like I fit in there. The crowd is in their younger 20s to maybe very low 30s. I just don't see the appeal. I had a couple of drinks, she danced and we left around 11:30. A very early evening for her.
Gonna wrap this post up. I'll continue in my next submission.
Continuation of the club scene. I'm pretty sure that I know why the girls are headed to the night clubs. And it's NOT because they all want to bolster the health of their domestic relationships. They are using it to build their egos and feel better about themselves.
Lately, my wife has taken to coming home at 3am or later after her nights out. She tells me that she's with her girls. I find that pretty disturbing. She is a supposedly married woman, and a mother of two young children. One morning, she came walking in sick from alcohol at 6:30 am. I didn't say anything, except ask her how she got home if she wasn't driving in that condition. She told me she drove. Drunk driving mother of two. Pretty irresponsible.
Last time she went to a club (that I know of) I made sure I gave her plenty of space. Didn't crowd her keep track of her or anything like that. I made sure I was involved in conversation on the restaurant side of the house with the other husbands. All this in an attempt to show her that I am not tracking her every move.
The guy in question showed as well. My wife made solid eye contact with me when she hugged him in greeting. As if she was trying to draw a reaction from me. I made sure I didn't give her that. BTW, the guy never greeted me. But did so with others. He is close to many of them and I am not. It still was pretty rude.
Later, the women went to the dance side of the club. I made sure to not follow them until much later, after us other guys had closed out our bill. I eventually made my way over with another husband to find our group. The first people I could find we're my wife and this other guy. They were on the dance floor and she had her arm up around his neck. I lost it.
I tapped him off and her cleared out. I pulled her out and asked her what was going on. I then confronted him and told him I didn't like him hanging out with my wife when I'm out of town. We ended up facing off, nose to nose in the club. Just a hair trigger away from a fight. So... that was the major setback in the club.
Since then I have told her I don't want him around here when I'm gone. My wife argued with me over this and I told her she was free to choose what she wanted to do, but I also have choices, which included separation, divorce and swapping kids back and forth.
I have since seen this guy at another function with the friends. Neither one of us spoke to each other and it was a very small gathering. Although I have no proof (due to trying to employ DB technique of no discovery)' I remain convinced that this guy is indeed after my wife and that she is giving him an open door. If that were not the case, I would think that I would have received some sort of overture from him about not trying to cause trouble and an apology since he has.
I have since decided that I am going to go dim on my wife. She really needs to figure out what she wants in life. It is obvious to me that she doesn't know. It's time for her to start seeing what it will be like with out me.
In addition, (forgive me for repeating), my 180s are:
Tight money management (I have always been responsible, but spent freely)
Keeping a very clean house (let the majority of the work fall on her)
Spending time with kids (started doing this during the summer. I'm enjoying it!)
GAL (always derived my emotional well being though her)
Working out (dropped 15 lbs over the summer. I look cut and fit now. Still improving)
Changing up my wardrobe (always been a conservative dresser. Looking for more of a contemporary edge now)
Asking wife's opinion and going with it (wife told me that one of the things she resents is that things always had to be MY way)
I am convinced that I not only have a WAW, but a wife in MLC as well. She's 39, is the oldest of her friends, and sees her 48 Y/O husband aging in addition to herself. She gave up her career to stay home and raise our kids, who are getting to the point where you are starting to be able to imagine them as young women. She has gone from married motHer of two to "perpetual 28 Y/O (she actually told our kids that with me in front of her)" hip, party girl. She has a new wardrobe purchased of the last year, has really gotten conscious about her weight and has lost about 8 lbs in the process of her transformation. She is not a big girl. She's 5'5" and at one point she was down to 120 and pushing for 118. I mean she looks great, but boy, what a price!
Picked up my wife at the airport yesterday. I tried my best to have PMA. I clocked dinner and made sure there was nothing at home that she needed to do. I tried a few times to get her to open up in conversation, but it seemed as though she wasn't interested. She spent lots of time fawning over the kids.
She noticed the new shirt I was wearing and how spotless the house was. I had cleaned the fridge and organized the pantry. However, when she saw the pantry, she was upset, said I had made it so she couldn't find anything and asked me if I was trying to get her to leave.
I have said before that she complained about how much time it took for her to do the books. I told her I would like to take over. I really was offering as a way to reduce her stress load at home. I think she has taken it as another sign that I am trying to push her out of the house.
I talked with her last night after she went off on me about a bill she thought I had screwed up. It turned out that I had done everything just fine and that she had misread the statement, but that was discovered after I suffered through her speech about how she will give me the smallest thing to do and I always mess it up.
I talked with her about how I am not trying to push her out. I would very much like to restore out marriage. I told her again of my love for her. I also told her I wanted her to be happy and if her leaving was what it required for her to be happy, then I was prepared to help her do that. I told her I want her, but will be fine without her. I asked her if she was so unhappy, why hasn't she left? Her reply was the kids and that she doesn't want to look like it was her fault. She feels I should leave since I'm gone for work half the time anyways. I really feel strongly that it should be my wife who leaves if we split. I find it amazing that she would expect us to separate when it is something she wants and then she would ask me to be the one to start living a new life while she feels no change whatsoever. AS, I feel like you that if we separated, then she needs to feel a stark difference. It should not be life as usual, because that's not what it would be if we went our own ways.
Again, she voiced a willingness to go to counseling. However, she again stated that she can't seem to be able to figure out how to change how she feels. The whole thing is, she bases her decisions on her feelings. If the feeling isn't there, then it's over. If the feeling is there, then things are good. How does one break out of this?
I mentioned before that I had been talking with my family. I have now ceased conversation about this subject with them. I am hoping this will help, but I realize that it may take months before I see any positive outcome from this move, if I ever do at all.
I forgot to add that my efforts to detach, be happy, and GAL, all seem to be communicating to my wife that I WANT to get rid of her. She seems to me to be resentful that I seem to be "taking this so well" and am adapting "so easily". That is why I talked to her to let her know I still loved her and would rather we reconcile than part ways. I am walking a tightrope of trying to make sure I am taking care of myself, but also leave the door open for her to approach me. I think a week with her out of town has served me well in that I feel better about being alone. I really had a fear of it before and I don't fear it as much anymore. That can only be good.
In reading over my posts, it seems that I could use a little guidance in how to be consistent on my execution of the DB techniques. Anyone out there been successful in navigating the quagmire I fond myself in?
Pathfinder,
Your wife sounds so much like me. Especially the negative reaction to your helpfulness around the house. I did the same exact thing with a bank account. I was so embarrassed later to realize I was wrong. But I had already acted like a fool and I couldn't admit my error. My pride was a big problem in the M.
I think that might be a problem for us WAW--even after we realize we've made a mistake our pride won't let us back up and have do-overs.
Lamp,
I am curious as to how long you had negative feelings about your marriage before you decided it was over and you wanted to walk. Then, what was the catalyst that caused you to reconsider?
According to my wife, the 180's I have made (taking over things that she used to do especially with the kids, keeping the home clean and running, re-arranging the pantry, etc.) have communicated to her that I am trying to push her out of the picture. I don't know if that is her fear, or if she is saying that to try to get me to get defensive and back down or what. She is a very headstrong individual and I often feel we are engaged in a power struggle in our home.
As a former WAW, what would you advise me to do?
Well I've been unhappy for about 3 out of 4 years. We've split 2 other times (once was the suggestion of our MC who thought my H was too dependent on me). Right before this last split I had bad feelings for about 2 months but it intensified the 2 weeks leading up to Christmas because of stress I was under. Also, my sister is a really severe biased shoulder who had been pressuring me to get rid of him. Ultimately I think I pushed him to leave to win her approval. And then a week ago she decided she doesn't want to speak to me anymore because I won't let her have my house and control over my life. So it's really messed up and all my fault.
My H also made positive changes in the M during the past year but I always interpreted them in a negative light. The reason is that I wasn't ready to give up my victim status (he had a porn addiction and did some other rotten things and I wanted to maintain that leverage over him).
The name of the game is CONTROL. It has nothing to do with love.
In my case ILYBNILWY really meant "I'm afraid that YOU don't really love me in a romantic way because you don't pursue me and lust after me the way you used to so I'm not going to love you either."
In my case ILYBNILWY really meant "I'm afraid that YOU don't really love me in a romantic way because you don't pursue me and lust after me the way you used to so I'm not going to love you either."
As I read that I had flashbacks to the night my W told me the ILYBNILWY because she also went on to say that I don't pursue or lust after her like I used to as well.
In my case ILYBNILWY really meant "I'm afraid that YOU don't really love me in a romantic way because you don't pursue me and lust after me the way you used to so I'm not going to love you either."
It's very interesting that you should say this. I would have never thought of that. In our case, I feel that she has told me this because of hurtful things that I had spoken to her. I felt that she was spending too much time with OM in my absence and when she would not accommodate my request that she show her loyalty, I verbally assaulted her for it.
However, now that she has "turned the corner" and decided that she really isn't interested romantically in me anymore, she has taken to wearing clothing that will really grab a guy's attention. Things like spandex pants, low cut sweaters, very tall heels, etc. It all speaks of looking for someone to lust after her.
As women age they begin to worry about loss of their attractiveness. We need to be reassured that we are beautiful but also that we still can "bring it". A woman looks to her H to tell her this. It's his job. If he doesn't she will seek it elsewhere.
We want to see you jump through the hoops like you did in the beginning. My H used to stay up all night long with me on the phone. Today.....he pretends to be tired at 10pm and goes to bed and leaves me all alone on the computer........not smart. Our sex life was on a schedule so that he wouldn't ever have to put out much effort. Definitely not a turn on.
Sorry you are here PF, but this is the best place to be, for a lousy reason. I would also urge you to go ahead and hire a DB coach.
If your w questions it, make sure you show her that you "get" that she's not happy and you are NOT so much trying to Stay married as you are trying to have both of you stay happy...
(or some other comment so she doesn't feel you are learning "tricks/tactics" to keep her, but that you are open to the chance this is over and you are preparing yourself. ) YOU know, and WE know that you want the marriage to last, but not at ALL costs...
DBing is more about saving yourself first, the marriage second. But without one, you cannot get to the other...
Picked up my wife at the airport yesterday. I tried my best to have PMA. I clocked dinner and made sure there was nothing at home that she needed to do. I tried a few times to get her to open up in conversation, but it seemed as though she wasn't interested. She spent lots of time fawning over the kids.
She noticed the new shirt I was wearing and how spotless the house was.
good^^^
I had cleaned the fridge and organized the pantry. However, when she saw the pantry, she was upset, said I had made it so she couldn't find anything and asked me if I was trying to get her to leave.
I only buy part of this^^. I think it's "her territory" and your changes MAY have looked controlling. Not sure. But no, it's not about making her leave. Geez, I'd have trouble not laughing at that.
I have said before that she complained about how much time it took for her to do the books. I told her I would like to take over. I really was offering as a way to reduce her stress load at home. I think she has taken it as another sign that I am trying to push her out of the house.
don't let her put you in a lose lose situation. If you KNOW your motives are upright, then let it go.
I talked with her last night after she went off on me about a bill she thought I had screwed up. It turned out that I had done everything just fine and that she had misread the statement, but that was discovered after I suffered through her speech about how she will give me the smallest thing to do and I always mess it up.
how'd You handle that talk?^^^ Did you call her on any of it?
I talked with her about how I am not trying to push her out. I would very much like to restore out marriage. I told her again of my love for her. I also told her I wanted her to be happy and if her leaving was what it required for her to be happy, then I was prepared to help her do that.
this^^ is risky if she feels unloved, but I get why you did it. It's probably the right thing to do.
I told her I want her, but will be fine without her. I asked her if she was so unhappy, why hasn't she left?
what's with challenging or cornering her into leaving? You want to "teach her a lesson" or "show her the consequences" of her actions? That's not a spouse's job. Life does that for them. Not us. (Per my DB coach).
Her reply was the kids and that she doesn't want to look like it was her fault.
What does SHE SAY she thinks is happening in the marriage now?
She feels I should leave since I'm gone for work half the time anyways. I really feel strongly that it should be my wife who leaves if we split.
I agree, assuming the kids are going to be fine.
I find it amazing that she would expect us to separate when it is something she wants and then she would ask me to be the one to start living a new life while she feels no change whatsoever. AS, I feel like you that if we separated, then she needs to feel a stark difference. It should not be life as usual, because that's not what it would be if we went our own ways.
if she leaves, then won't the life change on its' own? What would YOU need to do that insures it? I am not asking you to Make sure she suffers...b/c you will be blamed for it. I'm telling you that she'll learn what's out there when shes out there.
I don't think OM sounds interested in being a step dad, but that's for HER to discover. She is doing a "puzzle" of sorts and you cannot hover behind her shoulder telling her where the peices go. She has to figure this out on her own and you MAY HAVE TO release her to her task.
She'll learn that the grass is greener where it gets the most water (attention).
Again, she voiced a willingness to go to counseling. However, she again stated that she can't seem to be able to figure out how to change how she feels.
Love is not just a noun; it's also a verb. It requires action and choice...that we take and make on a daily basis.
But you cannot tell her this. I'm glad she says she wants to go to mc but it may be an attempt to check it off her list to show "she tried". So, find a mc who is pro marriage or solution based. Call ahead. They're out there but they are not in the majority. Most seem to help you re=hash your anger and make you feel more sure you want out.
The whole thing is, she bases her decisions on her feelings. If the feeling isn't there, then it's over. If the feeling is there, then things are good. How does one break out of this?
consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.
And she wont' want to stay married UNLESS she believes marriage to you can be better/different than before.
Your job is to show her that it can be. That you are a great catch and she'd be a fool to leave you. Be the best dad you can be, not just for your d's, although that is the biggest best reason...but also b/c it's very appealing in a man to see him lovingly interact with her children.
I mentioned before that I had been talking with my family. I have now ceased conversation about this subject with them. I am hoping this will help, but I realize that it may take months before I see any positive outcome from this move, if I ever do at all.
keep the road home, paved & smooth. The more people who know of her actions, the harder it'll be for her to come home.
I can see a sep as being possibly the only way for her to awaken...but I'm not sure. And I'm not sure YOU would be alright with that either.
Be patient. More than you ever thought you could be.
GAL too. We hammer it a lot here b/c we know it works. Plus you sound a bit introverted, so I hope you'll expand your comfort zone so it enlarges. That will help your PMA and will make you more intriguing. Be less predictable around her. A little mystery would not hurt either.
I think it's "her territory" and your changes MAY have looked controlling. Not sure. But no, it's not about making her leave.
I can see that I may have stepped on her toes. If she believes that I am controlling (and she DOES), then I think that's what she was actually saying. "You are taking over everything. I should leave since my input doesn't matter anymore."
how'd You handle that talk?^^^ Did you call her on any of it?
I showed her the mistake she made. I should have left it at that, but I returned to tell her that I am not the full she makes me out to be. It was just a spiteful dig that, I am sure, did nothing to improve things. She had already seen her error. I'm still learning to shut my mouth.
what's with challenging or cornering her into leaving? You want to "teach her a lesson" or "show her the consequences" of her actions? That's not a spouse's job. Life does that for them. Not us. (Per my DB coach).
You are right on this one. That was not well thought out by me.
I do believe she feels unloved by me. I think that she feels she hasn't been able to meet my expectations and my love for her has been conditional. I am attempting to rectify this, but at the same time not pursue. This is a VERY difficult task.
I took your advice and signed up for coaching with Chuck at DB. Our first session was really him just getting to know the dynamics of our situation. He then attempted to fill me in on what to expect.
Chuck looks at my wife as a WAS with MLC going on. Told me the script that she reads from and what her perspective is. That I should expect a bad day after any good day. It's the struggle within her as she reminds herself that she knows me inside out, that I have all these problems and that I will NEVER make a permanent change. This is even though she may have seen improvements in me over the past few months.
We actually had one good day this week. While my wife was away, she invited me to a couples' massage. We used to do these on a regular basis until she gave me the speech. The massage went well. We followed that up with some shopping for clothing for the kids, then she actually said she was hungry and we went to a restaurant. Overall the day went very well. Lots of good signs.
Next day, we hit a bump in the road. I was a little irritated that she had be disappearing after kissing the girls goodnight. She left both evenings after she came home from her trip. She wouldn't return until around midnight. I guess it showed and we had a spat. Nothing big, but when your spouse is looking for reasons to confirm her decision, ANYTHING is major.
In GAL, I have scheduled a day of skiing with a coworker. He and I both have very dynamic work schedules so we have never done anything together before. I'm looking forward to it. I don't usually go out and just have a great time, so this will be good for me. I told my wife I was going skiing with a friend that day. She asked with whom. I told her "with a coworker". Her reply was "that's pretty nondescript". I have said before that she asks where I am going. She tells me where she is going and who she is meeting (always her girlfriends), but she has a history of leaving out information before that she knows I would not like. I think it's good that she wonder.
Today, she is the ice queen. I had invited one couple over for the Super Bowl. Friend of hers and her husband. She then asked me to invite one couple after another until now we have a big clan here. All her friends. Not what I wanted. As soon as her friend showed up, she flipped a switch and was nice. But then, when she saw me talking with her friend, she started shooting me looks that could kill. This is going to me a FUN evening, I can tell..... NOT!
Made it through the evening. Had a good time with the guys. Left the girls to themselves. It's pretty much impossible to carry a conversation with my wife. She really seem like she doesn't want to have anything to do with me. It really comes across as quite juvenile like were are in high school and I don't fit in with her "in" crowd. She treats me like I am socially undesirable. I think we spoke a total of maybe four times all night.
It is quite refreshing when I get a chance to spend time with people away from her. I am so used to getting negative feedback from her that it feels great to experience the sincerity and acceptance of others. I really do have some great friends and I get treated nicely by perfect strangers. Much more kindly than I am treated by my own wife. My wife went from being kind and loving to being my biggest and most harsh critic overnight. Its pretty hard to endure.
I noticed she was wearing her wedding ring today. She put it on prior to everyone arriving. Guess I'll soon find out if it was just for the party or if it is on tomorrow as well.
I do want to thank those of you who have replied to me. It's nice to hear from you, get your insight and a sympathetic ear.
I have a question regarding mystery and GAL. My wife asks where I am going when I say I am headed out for the day. If she asks me with whom I am going and I reply that it is a friend, doesn't that leave another reason for her to NOT trust me? Last night, I reminded her that I would be out skiing today with a friend. Previously, she had asked who the friend was, and I told her a coworker. She then said I wasn't giving her much info. I had walked away after that.
Last night I told her I would be skiing with my friend, Jeff. I didn't want her thinking that I am hooking up with some other girl. Maybe I messed this up. Please let me know. My thinking is that she says she doesn't trust me and how can me planting seeds of doubt like this help when one of my goals is to build trust?
Another question. She's hasn't been wearing her ring for the past two weeks. Do I continue to wear mine?
Wear you ring if you want to.
AS, I just started looking through your original posts from when you first signed on here with your crisis. The small amount of your writings that I have read seems very well thought out. Almost as though the whole situation really didn't seem much of a challenge to you.
Wow, not sure how I left that impression but it was indeed a HUGE challenge!! I've been through the worst and lowest points of my life since BD. Horrible depression, extreme anxiety, no sleep for days on end, unable to function at work and home, etc. etc. It's been awful. I started out DB'ing specifically to save my M, but somewhere along the line it became more about saving myself than my M. And it has, I'm now stronger, more confident and happier than I've been in many years. I still hope to reconcile, but I've reached the point of knowing that my happiness and fulfillment in life is not dependent on W returning.
With my wife still living here, I find it challenging to disconnect. I have read that "Detach" is to disconnect from the emotional roller coaster but without withdrawing. I am searching for ways to show that I am still here, but without pursuing.
I just can't describe detachment any better than Peanut did here:
II. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done.
Our ego gets wounded and we are more inclined to those actions that will undermine our very best chances of accomplishing our goals.
We cannot control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.
If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love. Met with love we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’
It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."
Part of me wants concrete evidence, but part of me beleives that if I ever found anything that would ensure the demise of our relationship and our family. I suffer from swings in my feelings on this subject.
I would suggest tackling this question now. Ask yourself, if you found out she is involved in an A, would you still want to reconcile or is it a deal-killer? Because nearly every WAS is involved in an A. It may be a PA, an EA or even an imaginary affair. In absense of a PA or EA the WAS will conjure an image of an OP that will give them everything they want in life. This doesn't work for everyone, but the way I finally dealt with not knowing if my W was in an affair was to assume that she was. Once I made that assumption it made it easier for me to decide where to go from there. It also took away the desire to snoop. If you assume your W is in an affair, then you have no need to snoop.
Did laundry for the first time in about 12 years! Nothing turned into doll clothing!
LOL! Congrats
I have found an increasing workload coming down on me at home. In the past, my wife assumed most of the duties around the house. That was definitely a shortcoming on my part. It's a 180 for me to be SO involved in taking care of everything around here. It feels good, though, and it helps keep my mind off of the things that bother me. It also gives me a sense of well being and accomplishment.
Same here. Part of my anxiety over W leaving was not knowing how all that was going to get done. But once I jumped in and started doing it and discovered it wasn't some dark science that only women know, the anxiety left and I became much more confident I could run things. When W and I were at RetroV one of her comments was that it actually upset her to see me take everything over because she saw that I didn't need her and that I could actually do a better job of housework than she did. That wasn't my intent at all, my intent was to show her I could free her up to do other things. But it just goes to show how the WAS can find something negative in anything the LBS does.
On a good note, (baby step, maybe?) my wife asked if I would like to schedule a couples massage with her when she returns. We used to do that on a regular basis followed by lunch. I think I will wait to see if she wants to follow up with more later. Then maybe I can call it a baby step.
Sure it is, as Michele says just celebrate it internally and continue with your DB'ing. Don't have any expectations.
P2 and AS, I am into our S a little over 2 weeks. Like you two, I am taking on housework that I hadn't done for a long time and I found it isn't that bad. Prior to BD I had actually done a fair portion of housework although it wasn't 50/50. In addition to 180 and other things it is helping me GAL. On the first weekend W was gone I did a major cleaning of the house and it was really helpful for me as that was a tough weekend. Got my mind off of things and felt better about the house. Doing laundary is not that bad.
Also, make the bed every day because I always liked that. I hadn't made a bed in 20 years.
For me, having the house tidy is good energy and makes me feel good. Makes me feel even better because I'm doing it.
I'm also quite into making meals at home so as to cut down on Chipotle and other quicky food intake. Fairly easy to find healthy recipes that are easy to make and the kids will eat. I'm pretty damn happy with myself.
For me, having the house tidy is good energy and makes me feel good. Makes me feel even better because I'm doing it.
It does give you a sense of well being when you look around and the place looks pretty nice. Probably even better than it has in a while when your WAS has been pretty much been going on strike. I think it was a big surprise to my wife when she walked in the door and the place didn't look like a frat house!
The last couple of days have been interesting. I went skiing with my friend Jeff and had a GREAT time! It was SO good to get involved with something that requires intense concentration. I found myself thinking less and less about the situation I have been dealing with. And having a good friend there made it that much better. This is one of my 180's. Get out and DO stuff with friends. I am new to alpine skiing and it has been a lot of fun trying something new. It's something I can do with our girls and it's also something my wife is interested in as well, so it can be a great family activity if we make it through this storm intact.
During our outing, somehow Jeff ended up mentioning that a while ago he and his wife had endured a very difficult time. Long story short, his wife was having an affair and they managed to pull through it. He was telling me stuff that he learned as he was going through his trials. It sounded to me like he had been getting guidance from DivorceBusting. ALL the stuff he said was stuff you veterans have been telling me. It was nice to hear from someone who had been there and survived. Jeff DOES NOT know my wife or live anywhere near us, so no fear of boomerang effect.
My wife DID end up hearing back from someone I had talked to and I DID catch the boomerang in the face on that one yesterday. If there are any Newbies here, DO NOT TALK TO ANYONE WHO IS EVEN REMOTELY CONNECTED TO YOUR SPOUSE ABOUT ANY OF YOUR DIFFICULTIES! IT WILL BITE YOU!
I also had been sensing that my wife was starting to try to compete with me in things that she was doing with our girls. She hit me yesterday that she felt that I was doing stuff that I never did before with our kids and she interpreted it as an attempt to win the kids over to me. It really saddens me to hear her talking to me as if I am her adversary. I am trying to figure out ways to do things with our children that will not cause my wife to feel threatened.
AS, thank you for the tip on detachment. It has helped me immensely. That definition really does a great job of helping me understand just what is required of me during this crisis. It has helped me really get my head around how to handle the vicious attacks that my wife hurls at me when she's expressing her anger.
I am still wearing my ring. I have decided that I will use it as a reminder of the promise I made years ago. I will take it off only if my wife decides she is absolutely done and the courts declare it so. So far, that hasn't happened. Thanks, LB!
I am finding that no matter what the subject, I have to be VERY careful in how I word things that I say, or my wife will interpret my words to be an attack on her and then she starts in on me. I sometimes get to the point where I just don't say much of anything, because I will come under attack.
I just called it a night because my wife was chewing on me again. We were going to watch some tv together (her invitation). I had said something earlier about not having any problems out of our eldest daughter for a week while she was gone. She interpreted that as me saying that the problems we have out of our daughter don't happen when I'm in charge, and the verbal assault began. I attempted to explain that that was not what I meant by what I had said, but to no avail. No matter what I said, she would re-engage on me. I finally said I was just going to call it a night and I left. Trying to remember that this is a test. Don't know if I passed or failed. Definitely didn't come across as happy and content, but I didn't blow my top either. Time will tell.
Wow, not sure how I left that impression but it was indeed a HUGE challenge!! I've been through the worst and lowest points of my life since BD. Horrible depression, extreme anxiety, no sleep for days on end, unable to function at work and home, etc. etc. It's been awful. I started out DB'ing specifically to save my M, but somewhere along the line it became more about saving myself than my M. And it has, I'm now stronger, more confident and happier than I've been in many years. I still hope to reconcile, but I've reached the point of knowing that my happiness and fulfillment in life is not dependent on W returning.
I have continued reading your posts because you seem to have learned how to effectively navigate your way through this awful mess. I have started to see where you had trouble dealing with all the stress that was placed upon you.
I too had nights where I couldn't sleep at all. I would lie awake all night long and not sleep one wink. I found that after I moved to the guest bedroom at my wife's request, I slept better. Sometimes I still have to take something to help me drop off, but I am much better. I remember having a total panic attack when I started feeling that something not quite right was going on between her and the OM. I haven't had episodes like that for months now.
BTW, although we have had a bad evening, I have noticed that my wife is still wearing her ring. That makes 3 days in a row. (Baby steps. Baby steps.)
BTW, although we have had a bad evening, I have noticed that my wife is still wearing her ring. That makes 3 days in a row. (Baby steps. Baby steps.)
P2, I am sorry to hear about the bad evening. Part of the ups and downs I guess. I'm happy to hear about your wife wearing her ring. After BD, my wife wore hears hear and there for about 8 weeks. For the past 3 months she has not worn it. I don't make much of that but certainly something you notice. Particulary I notice it because the ring is laying on bathroom counter.
Last week W and I got together for dinner and it went well. That day I had forgot to put my wedding ring back on after showering in the morning. I was hurried. Anyway, during the dinner with my wife I could tell she noticed because she looked at my hand several times. I thought that was interesting. I'm not sure what was going through her mind. I felt during one of her glances it kind of threw her off.
Regarding feelings of panic and like of sleep and the roller coaster after the bomb date - I can relate. The first 2 months after bomb date I was all over the place. Much better now with time. Sleeping has gotten better since S for me. The other thing for me was significant weight loss - like back to high school weight and waist size. What a way to lose weight - get into a serious marriage crisis
VG, the story of your wife noticing your missing ring is interesting. Isn't it strange that they do this stuff and yet they are thrown off balance when they encounter something from us that they don't expect? I was told that it kind of makes them feel like they are losing control. It also makes them feel like they might not know you as well as they thought they did. Pretty scary stuff.
One of these past evenings, my wife tore into me about my changes. She said she feels like I am trying to steal the kids from her. This was all triggered by me going into their rooms to check up on them before bed. My wife has always done this. She wanted to know why I was doing it. I had never done it before. I told her that I had done this in her absence and that it might be that I was feeling closer to the girls as well.
She also brought up the fact that I have changed my manner of dress. Months ago, she had suggested better fitting clothing for me and I just continued the suggestion. This obviously is causing her angst. She tells me she doesn't know me. That I am different. When she says that stuff, it makes me wonder if I have changed too much. I really don't think so. I am the very same guy she married, I just do things now like think about what she might need, clean the house, spend time and actually talk to our girls, and I have some different clothes. Oh, and I don't sit around the house waiting for her to decide what we are doing. I have a plan for my day and I don't follow her around like I used to.
I'm sticking with my changes. They are good for me, us and our kids. I just hope that she gets a little more used to me this way. Her reaction to the changes does not make me feel any better about us.
On a positive note, she will still occasionally make statements that make me think she's gonna pull out of this. After all, she is convinced that I am the one who started all of this crisis and she is waiting for me to pull out of my MLC!
I have continued reading your posts because you seem to have learned how to effectively navigate your way through this awful mess. I have started to see where you had trouble dealing with all the stress that was placed upon you.
Good, that sounds more accurate, LOL! That's what I would hope people take away from my posts- not that it's easy or painless to do this, but that even though you may be going through terrible pain now it DOES get better and you CAN rebuild and be better than before!
Glad to hear you're doing better and boy can I ever relate to your comment about panic attacks. That whole fight-or-flight thing, I would get those anxiety attacks at work and could not even stay seated. That was really frustrating! I don't miss that at all!!
One of these past evenings, my wife tore into me about my changes. She said she feels like I am trying to steal the kids from her. This was all triggered by me going into their rooms to check up on them before bed.
Use these opportunities to validate her emotions. Ask her how it makes her feel, then whatever she responds (angry, scared, worried, etc.) just reflect it back and validate- "you do sound angry, I can understand why you feel that way. I have changed and I can see why my changes would confuse you, please just bear with me until you get used to seeing these changes and please feel free to talk to me if you need reassurances."
She also brought up the fact that I have changed my manner of dress. Months ago, she had suggested better fitting clothing for me and I just continued the suggestion. This obviously is causing her angst. She tells me she doesn't know me. That I am different. When she says that stuff, it makes me wonder if I have changed too much.
It's great that she's acknowledging your changes, but just remember that she's questioning everything you do. She's thinking A)if it's so easy for him to change then why didn't he do it a long time ago? and B)are these just tricks to try and get me back? That's why it's important to keep your changes going and give her plenty of time to see that they are real.
I'm sticking with my changes. They are good for me, us and our kids.
Exactly!!!
I've spent lots of time reading through posts on this site regarding WAW's. It seems like although we are all dealing with different women, we are all experiencing the same events. One of the posters called it "reading from the script.". I do my best to weed through all of the comments posted her and, in the process, keel the wheat and throw out the chaff" if you know what I mean. There certainly are lots of us here who are grabbing onto anything that we can find to help us keep our heads above the water.
I want to thank all the veterans here who systematically go through our posts and give us words of wisdom. I know this takes lots of time out of your day. I especially wish to thank Sandi2 for offering us insight into the thoughts and feelings of a WAW. This really helps.
AnotherStander, thank you for keeping a positive spirit through all that you have been suffering. You are an encouragement to me in this difficult time. Many people become negative, bitter and resentful. I cannot detect any of that in any of your posts. Thank you.
Journaling again.
I'm out of town on business again. Gonna be gone for about a week. I have said before that my wife looks forward to my departures. She has our girls and the house to herself. Gets to live her life without me being around. It's really like being separated but without the official paperwork. Before I left, she asked me if I was going to be taking my truck to work. (Sometimes I get a hired ride.) I asked her why she asked. She said no reason. Just curious. ???? What's up with that? Weird.
Haven't heard from her at all. Been gone for 2 days now. I have texted and called purely for logistics. I will get a one word reply and that's about it. Time to go dark. I really don't think I will hear from her at all unless the house is on fire!
When she was out of town for a week and I had our girls, I started hearing from her quite often. That was when I received an invitation from her for our couples' massage. I think that was because she missed the girls, and I think she was surprised that she didn't really hear from them or me. It is much more difficult for me to maintain radio silence when I am gone than when I am at home with our girls.
I did call her today about something important, but I screwed up by talking over her about the subject. I realized my error and apologized right then and there. I really need to work on listening and not talking all the time. This has been another complaint she has expressed and I think it dovetails into my controlling nature. I REALLY need to eliminate this habit. Any tips? I do not like the fact that I am this way. Maybe I do this so I don't have to work at at. It is much easier to have a monologue than a conversation with someone when you feel vulnerable to that person.
No major changes on our situation. That is something to be thankful for. Wife still lives at home. No separation. No divorce. I did find an address entered into her car's GPS as an active destination one day a couple of weeks ago. It was the address for our state's Health and Human Services Dept. I found that a little frightening.
I do know that, although I am trying, I have not detached. My heart went up into my throat for a second when I thought that I saw she had eliminated her married status from FB. I was mistaken, but it served as a wakeup call to me that she still has the ability to rock my world.
I have been reading:
5LL's
The Power of Positive Thinking
DR by Michelle
Love Must Be Tough
If Only He Knew: Understanding Your Wife
Winning Your Wife Back
5 Languages of Apology
I Promise How 5 Essential Commitments Determine the Destiny of Your Marriage
How to Improve Your Marriage w/o Talking About It
I should become a part time shrink!
I have really come to realize that my wife thrives on touch and quality time. I remember her telling me about 6 months ago (when she was wanting me to give her space) that she wanted me to be sure to give her body contact such as hugs and kisses.
Since that time, our situation has deteriorated drastically. Touch is out of the question now. It has been for about 3 months. I am taking AS's advice and assuming this to be because of an emotional or physical affair. I figure if I plan on the worst, I might not be crushed as badly when I encounter the truth.
Quality time is my only open door to her, and that seems VERY difficult to come by and it has to be by her invitation or I'm viewed as pursuing and pressuring. Its challenging when I'm gone half the time and then the remaining time I have, I must tread carefully like all of us here do.
I really do wish I had much better people skills. That is not one of my gifts. Another chance to learn!
I think I am going to go to the mall, bolster my new wardrobe and enter into some conversations so I can continue improving myself.
Thanks for listening!
OK. Question. Do I give the wife a Valentine's Day card, or not? I have one just in case.
Our anniversary comes up in March. I asked if she would like to go out to dinner then. She asked me, "what are we celebrating?" A little sarcasm was added. All I said was, "we have been married for 12 years."
I'm thinking I wasted money on a card, but figured I'd check with you guys first. My wife is NEVER the first one to initiate communication. She has never been that way. Even when we dated. I would call her on the phone and she would literally tell me I was crazy for calling her long distance. She always waits for me to make the first move. It makes it very difficult to bridge the gap between us without running the risk of pressuring her.
Your thoughts?
OK. Question. Do I give the wife a Valentine's Day card, or not? I have one just in case.
Our anniversary comes up in March. I asked if she would like to go out to dinner then. She asked me, "what are we celebrating?" A little sarcasm was added. All I said was, "we have been married for 12 years."
This is tough. Since our sitch began in Aug/Sep I have been thru our anniversary, W's birthday, and xmas. I am leaning towards getting my W a couple of gifts for Valentines but haven't decided yet. I don't think I'll get a card or do anything romantic. I will probably get her a book that she has interest in and a box of these cookies she likes. Kind of torn, on the one hand not to pressure and on the other to show I'm her husband and want to do caring acts for her.
I don't think these two gifts would put pressure on my W though so I'll probably give the gifts.
Of course, I'll coordinate cards/gifts from the kids.
It makes it very difficult to bridge the gap between us without running the risk of pressuring her.
Your thoughts?
A 180 would be to stop trying to bridge the gap.
It is pure pursuit and very unlikely to result in reconcilitation.
Let go and detach.
I vote NO for Valentines.
Hi Pathfinder
Our situations have so many things similar - only I'm the wife and am similar to you and my husband acts like your wife.
I struggle a lot with doing 180's, DBing and then being told I'm acting weird or acting as if I've moved on and don't want to work on things. I've thought of writing him a letter, similar to the one in Love Must Be Tough, and at least putting it out there that I want to work it out but I am letting him be free.
This control issue - I have the same thing - and lots of times I don't even realize it. Sometimes you feel like you have no choice but to conrtol it otherwise things won't get done. Have you found any techniques to help?
Valentine's - oh I just can't wait. Feel the sarcasm in that lol? D and I have made Valentines for the grandparents and her daycare. We didn't make one for H. Anytime I have bought him gifts recently (Christmas and just because), even ones that he REALLY loves, he thanks me but that's about it. And it's not so much that I expect material things in return, but I guess more that Iof an acknowledgment that I went out of my way, know things he likes, and spent money from my side job on them. That may not make sense. At any rate, not setting ourselves up for disappointment always saves some hurt!
Have you worked on a goals list lately?
The other thing for me was significant weight loss - like back to high school weight and waist size. What a way to lose weight - get into a serious marriage crisis
I experienced the very same thing! I started heading to the gym. It was the only thing I felt I could control. I ended up dropping 15lbs in the period of about 2 months and I am in better shape than I have been in my whole life. This marriage crisis weight loss program works!
This marriage crisis weight loss program works!
LoL! Should be a commercial. "This program is proven better than Nutrisystem!"
Hey pathfinder hang in there I see a lot of similarities in your situation to mine...I will get to that later...I am off to a yoga class part of my GAL program....try not to focus on her so much as focus more on yourself and the kids....at this point it does not matter as much as what she does but what you do...what country is your W from?
D and I have made Valentines for the grandparents and her daycare. We didn't make one for H.
Depending on how old your D is and whether or not she is of an age to make the choice on her own to do so, I would probably help her make one for her dad. It would really have to be from her though and have no undertones of it actually being from you. If you could pull that off, I think it would be OK. But... maybe better safe than sorry.
It makes it very difficult to bridge the gap between us without running the risk of pressuring her.
Your thoughts?
A 180 would be to stop trying to bridge the gap.
It is pure pursuit and very unlikely to result in reconcilitation.
Let go and detach.
I vote NO for Valentines.
Maybe you are right, Cadet. I think I will hold onto my card and see if she does anything for V day. If she does, I will give her the card. My way of mirroring.
BTW, I've been trying to follow your timeline. You seem to have dropped off the radar at 100' on approach. Did you ever touchdown and make it to the gate?
Hey pathfinder hang in there I see a lot of similarities in your situation to mine...I will get to that later...I am off to a yoga class part of my GAL program....try not to focus on her so much as focus more on yourself and the kids....at this point it does not matter as much as what she does but what you do...what country is your W from?
W is from CZ.
Thanks for the words of advice. I find sometimes that my thoughts are consumed with this mess we are in. I guess I feel that it is inevitable that we will drift apart if we don't communicate and when we don't communicate, I spend my time thinking of what I can do to pull out of this spin. I know that this is really not my problem to solve. I just have to keep reminding myself of that. All I can do is improve myself.
I find that occasionally, I will have days where I am able to completely detach. Spending time with our kids and helping them with their school work or doing fun things with them gets my mind totally off this crap. That's when I feel much better. Doing intense sporting activities also helps. You know, stuff that, if you don't concentrate on it you can die.
The thing is that, while I feel my wife is in MLC, she feels I am the one in MLC. This really makes things very confusing for both of us.
Out on a business trip for a week. Had a blizzard at home. Wife emailed me a pic of the snow along with a pic of each of our girls. Just a one line caption for each pic. No greeting or salutation. Didn't inquire as to how I was doing. Didn't say how she was doing either. I thanked her for the pics and encouraged her to call for snow removal instead of doing it herself. No reply.
Texted her that I would like to talk to the girls sometime and to have them call me. Response was a simple "ok".
This promises to be a long, cold, and dark winter.
I struggle a lot with doing 180's, DBing and then being told I'm acting weird or acting as if I've moved on and don't want to work on things. I've thought of writing him a letter, similar to the one in Love Must Be Tough, and at least putting it out there that I want to work it out but I am letting him be free.
This control issue - I have the same thing - and lots of times I don't even realize it. Sometimes you feel like you have no choice but to conrtol it otherwise things won't get done. Have you found any techniques to help?
Have you worked on a goals list lately?
I don't know if their responses to our changes are because they actually wonder if we are moving on or if they are just testing us. I guess it really doesn't matter though, because the changes we are making are ones that needed to be made anyways. One time when my wife started in on me about how my changes made it so she felt she didn't know me anymore, I asked her if she wanted me to go back to the way that I was. That kind of confused her too. She doesn't want me the way that I was, but she doesn't feel she knows me after the changes. Go figure! It's frustrating sometimes. I am working on not letting my frustration show. I am working on keeping a PMA and a happy demeanor.
Haven't found the silver bullet on getting rid of my controlling nature yet. That's my next mission. I do feel that once I can shed that habit, I will be a MUCH happier person and much more fun to be around, too.
As far as my list of goals, I have just a few things written down.
1. She will ask how I am doing when she communicates with me.
2. She will wear her ring and not remove it. (She used to never remove her ring.)
3. She will touch me.
I'm going to read up on you and your situation. Thanks for encouraging me. It means a lot to me since I don't get ANY words like that from home.
Pathfinder,
HI, I noticed all of your goals were about what SHE was going to do, not you. Maybe you should rewrite them in terms of what you are going to do to encourage these behaviors from her since you can't control her.
(Interesting that you just said you need to work on control just before you wrote these...just saying.)
I struggle a lot with doing 180's, DBing and then being told I'm acting weird or acting as if I've moved on and don't want to work on things. I've thought of writing him a letter, similar to the one in Love Must Be Tough, and at least putting it out there that I want to work it out but I am letting him be free.
This control issue - I have the same thing - and lots of times I don't even realize it. Sometimes you feel like you have no choice but to conrtol it otherwise things won't get done. Have you found any techniques to help?
Have you worked on a goals list lately?
I don't know if their responses to our changes are because they actually wonder if we are moving on or if they are just testing us. I guess it really doesn't matter though, because the changes we are making are ones that needed to be made anyways. One time when my wife started in on me about how my changes made it so she felt she didn't know me anymore, I asked her if she wanted me to go back to the way that I was. That kind of confused her too. She doesn't want me the way that I was, but she doesn't feel she knows me after the changes. Go figure! It's frustrating sometimes. I am working on not letting my frustration show. I am working on keeping a PMA and a happy demeanor.
Haven't found the silver bullet on getting rid of my controlling nature yet. That's my next mission. I do feel that once I can shed that habit, I will be a MUCH happier person and much more fun to be around, too.
As far as my list of goals, I have just a few things written down.
1. She will ask how I am doing when she communicates with me.
2. She will wear her ring and not remove it. (She used to never remove her ring.)
3. She will touch me.
I'm going to read up on you and your situation. Thanks for encouraging me. It means a lot to me since I don't get ANY words like that from home.
You are right, we need to make the changes anyway. And yes, completely frustrating. It's hard not to try to read into things.
I'm going to read a book called Let.It.Go in regards to the control issue. Unfortunately, I think it is something we have to work hard at and actually stop and think about things before reacting. It's not easy.
Sounds like a good start on your goals. I have yet to write mine down...that should be my first goal lol. Isn't it odd how they pick and choose when to wear their ring when they used to never take them off? Mine does that too. And always has some sort of excuse but it's hard to buy the excuse when they used to never take them off. He didn't have it on last night when we were at a bowling party - said he took it off to work on his car. Back around Christmas when he didn't have it on several times and I questioned him, the next time he came over I had taken mine off, he made a point to tell me he had his on, told him guess I'll put mine back on then and he got angry - what's good for the goose is not good for the gander in anything regarding the spouses.
Hope you are having a good weekend!
Good point GTO - I had not seen your post when I wrote mine.
Oh, and my D is only 2 1/2 - so she wouldn't know any different in regards to the Valentine card. I suppose it would be a nice gesture to do one.
Hey pathfinder hang in there I see a lot of similarities in your situation to mine...I will get to that later...I am off to a yoga class part of my GAL program....try not to focus on her so much as focus more on yourself and the kids....at this point it does not matter as much as what she does but what you do...what country is your W from?
7720, I just finished reading through your posts. We do indeed have a lot of similarities in the dynamics of our lives. You wrote of your wife having a lot of guy friends. My wife thinks very logically and is consumed with efficiency and saving money. She went to a technical school where she was one of only two women in her class. She thinks like a guy. She says she doesn't fit in hanging out with girly girls.
Just started reading Codependent No More. This book was written for me!
Pathfinder,
HI, I noticed all of your goals were about what SHE was going to do, not you. Maybe you should rewrite them in terms of what you are going to do to encourage these behaviors from her since you can't control her.
(Interesting that you just said you need to work on control just before you wrote these...just saying.)
I am going to have to think about this for a while. I have a written list of 180's. Do you mean something other than them?
Yes we camp a lot here as well....I have been trying to get out more...I am like you though no much into partying..my 180s are to get out and meet new people and I am guessing from reading your post that may be what you need to do as well. The media has really glamorized this whole seperation thing lately. How are your girls doing with all this my d(11) seems to be having the hardest..yes it has been a long cold winter...trying to get as much sunshine as possible...
Our girls don't really seem to have any idea of what is going on between us. My wife told them that I snore and that is why I sleep in the guest bedroom. Our youngest did tell me one day that she feels sorry for me because I have to sleep somewhere else. I don't think they have really noticed we don't touch each other anymore. I'm not sure how long this can be kept secret. I know my wife wants to spare them the pain. That's one reason she is still at home. It helps that I am gone as often as I am. It's like having a separation half the time anyways.
What is really amazing to me is that if I look at pics of us and think back to just 7 months ago, my wife seems perfectly happy. Now it's like she hates everything that there is about me.
What is really amazing to me is that if I look at pics of us and think back to just 7 months ago, my wife seems perfectly happy. Now it's like she hates everything that there is about me.
I have that same issue or question as to why all of a sudden did a switch flip and fun and happy goes the opposite direction.
What is really amazing to me is that if I look at pics of us and think back to just 7 months ago, my wife seems perfectly happy. Now it's like she hates everything that there is about me.
I often think this too. I have a photo of my W and I cuddling which was taken on the 5th December. A few days later and BOOM.
What is really amazing to me is that if I look at pics of us and think back to just 7 months ago, my wife seems perfectly happy. Now it's like she hates everything that there is about me.
I often think this too. I have a photo of my W and I cuddling which was taken on the 5th December. A few days later and BOOM.
Intact, I'm really sorry to hear about your wife doing that to you. I see that everything hit you like an avalanche. That's a really compressed timeline of events! I hope things get better for you.
Yes pretty much the same here but don't you think this has been a long time coming and maybe you were just missing the signs...We all need to grow and do new things...how can you get out of the rut you are in? That is what you need to be asking...what you can do to change you...you can't change her focus on you...What attracted your W to you in the first place..
My wife's complaints have been that we don't have a social life. That can easily be changed. I have been making attempts to do that. Just contacted some friends of ours to get together for dinner some night. we are going skiing as a family with other couples in a couple of weeks.
This summer, we can get together with her friends or mine for games at the ballpark. We can rent a boat and go water skiing or tubing. Changes can be made, but it doesn't happen overnight.
My wife was probably attracted to my sense of confidence, sense of direction in my life and the fact that I didn't smother her. I am sure that I came across to her as though I really wasn't too wrapped up in her. I was doing my thing but I made room for her in my life. She eventually became quite big part of my life.
As I read my own words here, I am beginning to get a little clarity. Thanks for asking. I hope things are improving for you, 7720!
Update on my situation.
Valentine's day came and went. Yeah, it's commercial, but everybody does it, so that's why we all make it into something more than it really needs to be. It IS just another day.
Waited to see if my wife would give me a card. She did. Nothing with any feeling to it. Very platonic. I gave her my card. Did nothing else. My card said something about love and not always doing a great job of expressing it. Any damage done? Who knows. I'm getting tired of all this tip toeing around.
Still in separate rooms. Wife won't even allow me to touch her.
Whenever I say something like "I can understand how you would feel that way", she comes back with "that's a textbook answer". She is very cynical and doesn't buy into this DB approach. I almost feel like everything that I have been told to try such as dress more nicely, go out and get a life, pull back, and validate has done nothing to help at all.
She told me today that she has always been a person to make a decision and then not look back. Not very encouraging.
She asked me about my coaching sessions. We keep totally transparent books. There is NO way to hide purchases like that from each other. She wanted to know what kind of help it was giving me. What did they have to offer me. How do you answer something like that? I gave her an answer that was pretty vague. She looked at it as though I had wasted more money. (A major complaint about me.) Said I could get everything I need from a book.
Anyone have any good advice? Sandy? Anyone?
In the process of removing all of my clothes from our bedroom. Today I am officially moving out of our master BR. Every time I go in there, I feel like I'm invading her space.
She's told me multiple times that the love she has for me is gone. If that's the case, she doesn't feel "married" to me any more or at least doesn't want to be. I have decided that if that's how she feels, it's time for me to start living my life like it's over.
I'm gonna do my best to be nice and cordial, but no more inviting her to do things with me. No more attempts to reconcile. No more mentioning anything about us or our past. I need to move on in my heart.
I find it impossible to "act as if". I need to "believe". My actions then will naturally follow.
Gonna re-read DR. I'm still looking for hope. Just haven't been finding any lately.
Pathfinder, what you have described is the LRT, and it seems the most appropriate thing to do now. Send love to her without expecting it back.
(((((((((())))))))))
Thanks for the hugs, Tori. I'm definitely needing them!
I have been dealing with this crap for 6 months now and no matter what I have tried (even attempts at LRT), nothing seems to affect her. The emotional abuse she has been dishing out to me (no sex, recoiling at my touch, ice queen, not including me in her activities with friends, letting me see her all happy and sparkling with anyone besides me, etc.) is taking its toll. I feel like what she is really trying to do is to drive me out of the house. She knows this stuff affects me greatly. In fact, her behavior is just like the LRT being directed at ME.
I'm in serious need of direction from people who have been through all of this crap and have successfully made it through. I have about had it. My wife is a VERY determined individual who has always made it through any crisis in her life by just shutting off her emotions and becoming a "machine". I am NOT that way and so, it seems, I am getting slowly destroyed.
I have counseling session number two scheduled for tomorrow. I purchased three of them. I am really hoping to get some kind of epiphany that will work for me.
PF, I'm sorry for your W's behavior. I'm glad you plan to re-read DR. Remember to do things for yourself (and kids) and have no expectations from W.
Detaching and giving a lot of space will do you good. If at all possible don't allow your W to flaunt her happiness in front of you. Don't be present in such situations. You are in same house so maybe not easy to do.
You've got to remember that regardless of the outcome you will have a happy and fulfilling life. Remember to make yourself into the kind of person that only a fool would leave. If things don't work out then it's her loss.
This current version of your W, this one that is not what you married, you don't want that so detach yourself from that.
Regarding an ephiphany, I hope that comes but I believe that it will come after a lot of thought and patience. Which you have done. I know you don't want to hear this but maybe the epiphany is in your statements above ("My wife is a VERY determined individual who has always made it through any crisis in her life by just shutting off her emotions and becoming a "machine""). When you have seen your W just shut off her emotions, have you ever seen her warm back up? Or does she keep going in one direction?
Hey Pathfinder--- first off I just wanted say you are doing a good job but still maybe focusing too much on her..Why did you have to move out of the master bedroom? If this goes further and one of you has to move out of the house--- don't let it be you, she is the one that will need to move out get her own place etc.. and you should not help with that...
My W seems to be acting like a college kid again..I saw her the other day and all she had to talk about was playing music and her friends...I noticed that while according to Db I should listen etc...and not make many comments but in reality I just was having a hard time not seeing her as a lost 20 year old..(she is 40)... My point is--- is I see your W a lot like this and it is no good to try analyze it and try to make sense of her behavior... It does not make me feel good and I can't change her to make her love me; so you can't truly GAL when you are thinking about her all the time...now is time for you...Get out there and do something for you...and take care of yourself!
I didn't have to move out. I just did it when she asked me to and after I did, I found I could actually get some sleep. Before I was tossing and turning and just getting nothing. Some nights when it was particularly bad, I wouldn't get a wink of sleep. Although I have moved out of our bedroom, I will not leave our home. If she wishes for a separation, she will have to leave. She has said before that she thinks it should be me who has to leave because all of this is my fault and she doesn't want to look like the responsible party in the breakup of our family.
7720, my wife is behaving exactly like that... a 20 something. It's all about blaring her music without regard to anyone else's feelings. It is also about a fresh new wardrobe and drinking and dancing. She has told me that for fourteen years things have been my way and now it is HER turn.
There really is nothing you can do and I think I have finally come to that conclusion. I really wish she would wake up and snap out of it, but when I look at her history of how she avoids conflict and shuts the door on things and just walks away, I am very aware that she may never do that. In light of this, and the fact that she keeps standing her ground that she doesn't feel any romantic love for me anymore (and that's what she's looking for), I feel I must begin to build a new life for myself without her.
Grateful, I am pretty sure I have always seen her make a head decision and stick with it. I can't remember a time when she changed her mind after she made a formal statement of a decision she has made. Since she has formally told me that she feels nothing for me, I must believe that the road she has chosen and will continue to follow is the road to divorce.
If most WAS's are women and most WAW's follow through and don't rebuild, given my wife's mode of operation, I would say she has nailed the coffin shut and it will remain that way, which is very unfortunate for ALL of us.
I haven't REALLY turned up the LRT before. This time, it's for real for me, because I've had enough. I don't like her the way she is. I love her, but I don't want her the way she has become and I know there are very nice people in this world. I come in contact with them every day. I am NOT giving up. I just think I have finally come to see the stark reality that is before me and our girls.
Lets hope my coach has some good insight and concrete steps for me to follow.
Thank you VERY much for your support. You guys really are great. I wish you weren't here on this forum, but I am thankful for your insight and your kind words.
sorry pathfinder I have had the kids this week so a little so to respond but i will tonight....your thoughts hit home as I have had the same... want the old wife not so sure about this new one...
I've been pretty quiet on the board recently. I have really been using it a lot to vent. I'm not sure that is a good idea. Been actually thinking about asking to have my stuff purged. I don't think it would do us any good if my wife was able to somehow come across what I have written here.
What I am certain of is that I haven't really understood what I have needed to do. I haven't really had a handle on what exactly Michele meant when she would speak of TLR technique. Although I have been in this mess for half a year now, I am still learning what is demanded of me.
BTW, if any of you are considering a DB coach, just bite the bullet and pony up and pay for it. They are very insightful. There is a lot of advice on this forum, not all of which is good, constructive and effective advice. You can actually do more damage to your relationship by following the words of some of us on here.
I have recently started reading the posts by women who were once walk aways. I try to read the posts made by people who have successfully made it through this life event. Sandi2 is one person whose posts I have been reading. It is helpful to read her posts, because she is telling us what to do and what not to do from the WAW's perspective. I encourage you to read her posts. Thanks, Sandy2!
I've been pretty quiet on the board recently. I have really been using it a lot to vent. I'm not sure that is a good idea. Been actually thinking about asking to have my stuff purged. I don't think it would do us any good if my wife was able to somehow come across what I have written here.
If you feel this way why do you continue to post? How is your wife going to find this?
Probably just being paranoid. I felt that if she were to view or read any of Michele's works, she would know of this forum and then could search the forums for stuff written about our situation. Probably a long reach. I have a tendency to over think.
Wife brought up the subject of our relationship yesterday. In a nutshell... nothing new. She doesn't know what she wants to do. Only knows one thing. She's NOT happy.
Been DB'ing my a** off. While she sees changes in me which she admits are good, it still doesn't erase her feelings that she will never be able to get back to feeling "in love" with me.
The new twist is that she says she feels I would handle our divorce better than she. That it would be easier for her to stay in our marriage than to leave, and that she wonders about us staying together as "just friends". What do you guys think of this? I wonder how I can be married to someone I love and not touch her when I find her SO attractive physically. We used to have a VERY good sex life.
Last night, she told me she wonders if we have a foundation we can build on. She feels that what we built on was a common career and awesome sex. The sex was hot right up until this past summer when we crashed. Since November, she literally won't let me touch her.
Part of me says living under the same roof as friends is better than separation. We would have contact and our kids wouldn't experience our divorce. Essentially, I think it would basically be a sexless marriage.
7720,
You seem to have vanished from the boards. How are things for you and your wife?
Well... my wife wanted to talk today about our relationship and what we are going to do. It is said here NOT to bring up any talks about the relationship. I spent lots of time today answering questions, accepting blame, acknowledging past failures and expressing my sincere remorse for hurting her.
I also (on the advice of my coach) tried to appeal to her heart. Letting her see that I support her, love her and want her to be happy. He told me not to withdraw. He told me to listen for her hopes and dreams. To look to building connectedness. I listened to her. Today I actually heard her communicate in a way she never has before. She revealed her insecurities. She has NEVER done that before.
She has told me that she doubts absolutely everything. Why did we get married? What was our marriage built on? Was there anything good in our relationship? Was it dis-functional from the start? Did I marry her to fill a need? Did she marry me to fill a need? She told me that she always felt safe and loved with me and that in any previous relationship that she was in, she feels that she always ended it first to avoid being hurt by the other individual.
I had hurt her greatly this past summer when I turned on her and verbally attacked her for her friendship with a guy I suspected was pursuing her. In doing so, I communicated to her that I didn't trust her and I was also critical of her. The damage I did was immense.
She doubts my love for her. She doubts us as a couple. She doubts the ability for us to have a happy future together. She isn't sure of anything. She told me today that she really feels that we would both be better off if we got a divorce and rebuilt our lives separately. She's scared and confused.
I don't know if it was a poor decision, but I expressed what I felt were good things about our relationship. I didn't try to convince her or sell anything to her, but I did acknowledge her fear of more of the same and expressed that I felt I was the same person, but with a different (new) outlook on life.
If this isn't the bomb drop, it's EXTREMELY close to one. It's not been a very good day. I really don't know what to do now. Just trying to calm myself down.
Pathfinder... ((hugs))... I am pretty new here myself, but sounds to me like you did a GREAT job validating her feelings and accepting the parts that were your faults. This is exactly what DB teaches us. Don't beat yourself up. Sounds to me like you were being honest without being pathetic/whiney.
My wife just walked in the door and said "I know I must have sounded as though I have pretty much made up my mind, (you certainly DID!!) but I'm still not sure what I want to do". I'm still a finalist. What a roller coaster ride!
I'm certainly learning how emotional detachment (and I don't mean withdrawal) is a life preserver in times like these. This past summer I would have been a wreck.
Did someone here say, "don't believe a thing they say and only half of what they do"? She told me she was only stating how she felt at the time. We have all read that here too. I think it was either 25yrsmlc, Sandi2 or Cadet who said that. Thank you, veterans for helping us all out on these boards!!
I continue to track as straight as I possibly can. I know she must think I am a rock. I found it very surprising when she told me she thought I would handle our breakup better than she would. I feel that's testament to my steps to GAL and to focus on everything that's good in life. I just keep reminding myself that, although I might not be able to imagine it, I will be just fine either way this ends up. Keep looking ahead, waaaay ahead! Perspective is a must.
She doesn't know how much it affects me when she says she wants something or someone different. I'm doing my best to show her that I'm that someone/something different, but I come completely in tune with her needs, wants and and desires and... her kids absolutely love me!
wfm, Thanks so much for your care. It really makes a difference in our lives when we all here experience the love and support of the others who are here. It's comforting to not go through this stuff alone.
P2, I am glad to see you posting again. Sincerely sorry about the roller coaster you are on. But seems to me you've handled things well.
I think it is a positive with how your W opened up with you. That is a big step in my mind. Hopefully a step to continued emotional sharing from your W. These things she is saying need to be put on the table no matter what. I know these things are not easy to hear but it is good you are hearing it directly from her. Certainly if you are to reconcile one day it all needs to be out there. When she opens up, continue to be understanding so that she will continue to expand on her thoughts.
If your W opens up the discussion about R then I would go with that conversation and you did. Now that she has I would back off, give her space and compassion and empathy. You can be patient and have PMA.
Thanks, VG. I needed that.
I did thank my wife for being open and sharing what is in her heart with me. In fact, I told her that I wished that she had been that open with me years ago. It really was nice to hear her share her innermost feelings with me. Even though it was stuff I didn't want to hear, it meant a lot to me for her to say it. And I hung onto every word she spoke.
The thing that spoke loudest to me was how she has always felt that I had her on a pedestal and how much that meant to her. She felt loved and adored. It really hurt her when I tore her down. I wish I had never done that.
You are right. What she opened up about was stuff that needs to be addressed. I am sooo fortunate that she shared it with me. It is a gift from her and I won't forget it!
The thing that spoke loudest to me was how she has always felt that I had her on a pedestal and how much that meant to her. She felt loved and adored. It really hurt her when I tore her down. I wish I had never done that.
Don't beat yourself up. You've learned and will know how to respond in the future.
PF, I agree with VG's advice. Forgive yourself for the past and move forward with what you have learned.
Thanks, guys. I try to do that. Just expressing frustration with myself. I know there's nothing gained by beating myself up. I just pray that from here on out in my life, I will remember just how effective my tongue is. I can used it to build up or to tear down. Our words are powerful. More powerful than I have realized.
My wife has told me she wants to find a counselor who can tell her if we have anything sound to build on. She wants a list of things in a healthy relationship so she can see if ours is worth working on. It's almost like she's trying to figure out if our marriage is not worth the effort and she should find another one to work on. But she has also said she's not interested in another relationship.
I just hope and pray that she consults with someone who encourages her to work on keeping our family together. She's got to want to do that though. No matter what anyone, including a therapist may say to her.
I feel like if she gets advice to work on things here at home, she still won't be convinced that that is what she wants to do. However, if she senses that the therapist's advice is to scrap it and move on, she'll do that because it agrees with how she feels now. The lure of the unknown verses the challenges of our relationship with which she is very familiar. Why does the grass always look greener?
Thinking about my last post.
I guess that's just another way of saying that she feels she knows me inside out and is so turned off by more of the same that she is willing to step out into the great unknown. This would be especially true if she questions me and who I am.
I really am at a loss for what I should do. I have a wife who questions my love for her. On one hand, I want to say/do something to communicate my love for her and how valuable I feel she is, on the other hand, I don't want to pressure her and cause her to feel that it's not love for her that I feel; it's a need for her.
I'm on the high wire.
Did someone here say, "don't believe a thing they say and only half of what they do"? She told me she was only stating how she felt at the time. We have all read that here too. I think it was either 25yrsmlc, Sandi2 or Cadet who said that. Thank you, veterans for helping us all out on these boards!!
That is one of the DB 180 tips, I'm surprised you don't know that. You should know at least the intent of all of the DB tips by heart by now even if you don't have them memorized word-for-word. Read
Sandi's sticky at the top of this forum and work on those tips every day, they are your road map on how to act and what to say to the WAS.
I saved those tips to a document and looked at them every single morning for months. It's like all of DR condensed into a handful of snippets.
Thanks, AS. I see it's #32. I've got them all written down in the notes on my smart phone.
Good idea to read them everyday. Soon it should be second nature to me by now.
The good thing is my wife has been talking. I'm not bringing up the r talks. She's initiating. It's scary though. I am never sure that what I say to her is taken the way I intend.
She tells me I seem happy, and I am. I choose to look on things around me and be thankful for what I and we have.
From here in out I think I should really concentrate on just listening to her and hearing what she has to say. She knows where I am at. I don't learn anything by talking about me.
ohhhh good point!! gotta remember that one!! "I don't learn anything by talking about me"....LOVE IT!
Just got back from spending about 5 hours with my wife.
We've been filling out paperwork for some testing we are having done on our oldest. Since day one, her behavior has been a challenge and they are thinking we may be dealing with autism. Needless to say, this has been a tremendous stress on us as a family and its been a source of strife for almost a decade.
We worked well together today. We always have when we have a common goal. However, I felt at a loss for words when we were finished with the papers. We all went to dinner as a family. There were long periods of silence between us. Like we both were only there together because of the kids.
There were lots of times when she spoke only to our children. We have done so little together over the past 6 months that it seems like we don't even know what to talk about anymore. It seemed quite awkward at times. I really have begun to feel much more comfortable when around her for only short periods of time. This is quite disappointing. We used to be so easy together.
Do any of you find that you feel like you are under a microscope with your WAS? My wife quite often says things to me like "I think you are saying things to me that you think you are supposed to say". This was said to me last night while watching TV together. I had made mention that she has a lot of insight into things that I am not as knowledgeable about or skilled at, such as discerning things about people. I used to not listen to anything she said. I had a need to be right.
After she said that to Me she started expressing her hurt, frustration and anger over my past behavior. I have been a pretty good punching bag. I didn't defend myself. Just said I don't feel that way anymore. Is she saying this stuff because of her fear that I'm just pretending? Or is she just hitting me to express her burning anger at me? Both?
Just gonna be the new me. I really would love to share life together with her.
Pathfinder, the very same comment was made to me. Last week, during one of my pushing rel'p convo's where he was nodding in agreement. H said "I feel you are going to be on your best behaviour"... and I replied back "well, we will just have to wait and see". He then said "good answer".
Who knows??
Wfm, I like how your answer of "we will just have to wait and see" not only addressed his remark to you, but it also reminded him that he will never know if he just bolts. I think your response was worded well. Keep giving him space! Let him come to you!!
WOW... Tx, pf2.... I did "something" right? I sooooo want him to come to me. This will be a complete 180 for both of us, as I am the pursuer in our entire rel'p. In every area, including affection and sex. If you can imagine, he will not initiate even THAT, he will get p!ssed however, if I don't. So, it will be a nice balance for a better rel'p if he makes the effort.
I forgot to add that my efforts to detach, be happy, and GAL, all seem to be communicating to my wife that I WANT to get rid of her. She seems to me to be resentful that I seem to be "taking this so well" and am adapting "so easily". That is why I talked to her to let her know I still loved her and would rather we reconcile than part ways. I am walking a tightrope of trying to make sure I am taking care of myself, but also leave the door open for her to approach me. I think a week with her out of town has served me well in that I feel better about being alone. I really had a fear of it before and I don't fear it as much anymore. That can only be good.
You posted this awhile ago, but yes I encounter this same issue too. The act of GAL and detaching makes my wife think that I'm moving away from her. Then I'm in the wierd spot of reassuring her that it is not true.
SA, Maybe that's what GAL is supposed to do. Make them think!
Just left the house for two week business trip. Kissed our girls goodbye. Walked to the door and was ready to leave. Thought I probably should say good he to the wife. Don't want to appear irritated or rude. Walked back to the kitchen where she was with our youngest. Told her to have a good week. She looked momentarily my way and said "you do the same" and went back to whatever it was that she was working on. Appears as indifferent and uncaring as you can get.
My job this week? Have fun and FORGET ABOUT HER!
THUMBS UP P2 !! I would love a 2 week break from my life!... ENJOY and put HER on the back burner!
Looking for some input from you folks.
I've had two sessions with my DB coach. During my last conversation with them, they noted that my wife communicates to me where she is going when she leaves the house. She shares her calendar with me via the cloud. The last time she was out with her friends, she told me where she was going and texted me to let me know when she was on her way home. She has done that a few times within the last few weeks. If she is away from home, she will text me letting me know she is on her way. The last time she did this, I texted her back a "thank you" for letting me know.
Do you think that comes across as me wanting to "monitor" or "control"? Do you think it is good that I give her positive feedback for this?
Although she does this, she is still emotionally distant.
PF
just curious and don't mean to nitpick...but how many threads do you have? Is this one your main one?
IT's a lot easier for us to follow along & advise you, if you post only in one place.
OTherwise invariably a piece of the story or major facts get lost.
good luck
PF
just curious and don't mean to nitpick...but how many threads do you have? Is this one your main one?
IT's a lot easier for us to follow along & advise you, if you post only in one place.
OTherwise invariably a piece of the story or major facts get lost.
good luck
25, thank you for visiting me. I have been hoping to hear from you.
This is my only thread. I have read that we should keep to one thread here, so that's what I have done. I have commented in others' threads, but here is where I write about my wife and I.
I will re-read everything I have here to see if I have posted everything or if I haven't done a good job of writing about my situation.
Iv'e been reading what I have written here and it really helps me get a better picture of the progression of things over the last few months. It has allowed me to see changes in how I feel and react. It also has helped me see changes in my wife.
Back on Feb 18, I wrote about my wife avoiding conflict. Just this past week, she opened up about how she has always avoided conflict or confrontations. She said she doesn't know why she does this. I am figuring it must be at least partly because of growing up in a family that ended up torn apart. She has told me she has no faith in marriage. I don't know if that is a new sentiment or if she has always felt that way or at least has had her doubts.
One thing that she told me was that any time we had an argument, she was profoundly affected by it. She was convinced it was the end of us. I would always go to her to reconcile. She would never come to me. I always took it as her pride that prevented her from doing it, but I now believe she was feeling scared, alone, and unsure of my love for her.
She told me she doesn't know where this comes from. She said she agreed to marry me because she felt safe and secure with me. That I would love her forever.
She has opened up and talked about herself like she has never done before. The unfortunate thing is that it took this crisis for it to happen. It also is pretty scary, because although she is talking, I don't get the feeling that this is any indication that she will choose us.
I am in love with a girl who questions my love for her. She questions the foundation of our marriage.
It seems easy to understand how a wife should handle a husband who is a WAS. She gives space and waits for him to pursue her. It is traditionally the man who pursues. That is how he shows desire for the woman. How do I show my wife the love I have for her, continuing to "pursue" yet NOT do damage? This is confusing to me.
She has told me many times she would never pursue a man or even offer her number to them if she was interested (before we met). She always let them do all the work. She would respond. It was a test. If he wanted her he would show it. I feel I need to show it, but not push.
Don't remember how this came up, but I made mention to her this past week that I found her very attractive sexually. That it was almost impossible for me to keep my hands off of her. That she "does" it for me. She always has and always will. She didn't say anything, but gave me a smile. It seemed to be something she liked hearing.
The past three weeks I have been home, she has worn her ring the whole time. That seems back to normal.
Any input here?
My coach has told me "do not withdraw". He has also advised me to support her in any way possible and to look for ways to work together as a team with common goals. Try to look for the underlying fears in things that she says to me.
My wife told me a few weeks ago that she had applied to go back to school. She wanted to know if I would support her doing that. I know that this would mean much more than money. It would mean emotional support and support in the form of taking on even more of the workload at home. I told her that I would do whatever it took to help her accomplish her goals and I really meant it.
Last week, she asked me what I meant when I had said that it would be a financial disaster for us if we got a divorce. I simply replied that we would end up losing lots of money when we turned paper losses into actual ones with the real estate sales we would have to execute. She never said if that was the answer she was looking for or what she was really wanting to know if that wasn't it. She also asked me if I had seen a lawyer. I told her I had not. She never said anything else.
Most of the time, I don't ask her anything in return. Maybe I am afraid of getting hurt by an answer I don't want to hear.
I don't know if she's just gathering facts about what I am doing so she can protect herself or if she is asking me this stuff because she fears I will pull the plug and dump her. Maybe she's taking the temperature of our relationship. I am pretty sure that I would be concerned that I would be in a difficult position if my spouse left me when I was a SAHM and hadn't been in the workforce for 10 years.
I know she is worried about what is going on with us. She told me this past week that she's having trouble sleeping and one night didn't sleep until about 4am.
I don't know if she is looking for signs of security with me or if she just trying to see how much time she has left on the clock. Do any of you find your spouse asking you questions like these and then saying nothing after you give them a reply?
As I mentioned above, I'm out of town for 2 weeks. This is day 5. We've texted and talked via the phone. All logistics or talking about the kids. If there has been anything else, it was because I tried to carry a more normal conversation with her like we used to have. Am I messing up here?
I have been trying to operate more like things are fine lately. Actually, probably for the last three weeks. Nothing physical, but just in our conversations and interaction. The reason for this is three weeks ago we were on vacation and we were sitting together on the sofa and I was rubbing her feet. She mentioned that it was nice. Like old times and it really seemed to make her feel better. She says things are weird between us. I'm trying to change that. However, this really hasn't changed the dynamic, so is it time for another change?
I've read about some of you going silent for months. I'm thinking of going silent except to respond to her contact for the remaining 9 days of my trip. Yeah, I know!
This is different for me. Figured I would "press to test".
When doing DR, how long were you guys implementing changes before changing things up again?
Maybe I've got things all wrong here. As I re-read my words, I see I am doing things to get a response. Do I need a change of mind to just doing things and just leave it at that?
Was meaning to bring DR along to read it again, but forgot it at home. #$&*%@!!
Pathfinder, they say to not do things to get a response. Do what will make you a better person and hopefully they will notice.
Your W said things were weird. My W has said things along those lines also. I think to myself "no kidding they are weird. Our lives have been turned upside down over the past few months."
Your W seems like she enjoys talking to you so I am not sure what the benefit of going dark would be. Seems like that would just upset her and push her away. I am far from a vet around here and I am still very confused concerning my WAS but I just wanted to put in my thoughts fwiw.
Good luck.
Thanks, Grizz.
My wife will sometimes talk and sometimes not. When I am on trips, she doesn't communicate with me very much at all. I guess I probably take her silence personally. I am working on that. I think we both notice the difference in our interactions with each other, hence the "weirdness". She seems to want things to be "familiar". Maybe she feels that may help her "love" for me come back. Or she could be just expressing her distress. She says she really doesn't like change.
On your input, I'll continue contact, but hopefully with no expectations. That way, I'm not trying to control her. I will also remind myself that I am in control of my feelings and thoughts when I do communicate with her.
Controlling my own actions/reactions were very hard for me at first. I would respond poorly to almost all interactions that W and I had. I was terribly passive aggressive. I have gotten much better with this over time. Things will still happen that will get to me but now my first thought is to not show emotion. PMA or if all else fails just fake it. I still fake it quite a bit. Hopefully as I continue to work on me, the faking it will become less and less.
I was just looking at an article about detachment over at Livestrong.
I really think my problem has been that I had become so overly dependent on my wife. I felt incomplete without her. Obviously, if I am incomplete, then I need her. If I feel incomplete without her, I would naturally be very anxious about my situation and how things play out. That would lead me to either try to manipulate her into being with me, or to be overly affected by her decisions.
I am now working to prove to myself that I am complete without her. I believe that this will allow me to fully detach from her. By "detach", I do not mean giving up on our marriage, or building a wall between us. What I mean is fully functioning without anything gained from her.
If I "need" my wife, then I don't have anything that I can give her. She gives to me. Continually. If I am complete and whole by myself, then I have a source in myself from which I can give.
I was just looking at an article about detachment over at Livestrong.
I really think my problem has been that I had become so overly dependent on my wife. I felt incomplete without her. Obviously, if I am incomplete, then I need her. If I feel incomplete without her, I would naturally be very anxious about my situation and how things play out. That would lead me to either try to manipulate her into being with me, or to be overly affected by her decisions.
I am now working to prove to myself that I am complete without her. I believe that this will allow me to fully detach from her. By "detach", I do not mean giving up on our marriage, or building a wall between us. What I mean is fully functioning without anything gained from her.
If I "need" my wife, then I don't have anything that I can give her. She gives to me. Continually. If I am complete and whole by myself, then I have a source in myself from which I can give.
Wow PF that is good. I need to print your post!
well said PF...
you mentioned at first, on Monday, that your coach told you NOT to withdraw and then later the same day
you posted this:
I've read about some of you going silent for months. I'm thinking of going silent except to respond to her contact for the remaining 9 days of my trip. Yeah, I know! This is different for me. Figured I would "press to test".
When doing DR, how long were you guys implementing changes before changing things up again?
How long before we changed things up? You have not done a single course of action for 90 days...
I mean, if you could tell immediately that some behavior was hurting things, then change. If you are not sure then first make sure your change is clearly being made and then give it time for her to trust that it's real. THEN she can see how she feels about it.
I sense so many mixed signals coming from you I have to say, a man who is unsure of himself cannot be reassuring to a wife who needs to KNOW he's there for her...
Don't try to reassure her for 2 weeks and then when you are "away" from home and COULD be with an OW or doing something sneaky or weird or that she does not trust
THEN stop contacting her...how odd.
You're in the mode of "I must do...SOMETHING" and that's not a good place to be.
Trust your DB coach and do what they say until IF & when you know it's hurting things
and THEN you can make an adjustment.
What traits are you most working on?
Also, instead of making your posts ALL about what she says, or does or your fears...
please tell us ONE GAL thing you do this month.
Join something, go somewhere new or sign up for a class and BE DIFFERENT and less predictable.
Not in a way that feels threatening to her, but in a way that interests YOU and thereby helps you know who you are.
Good luck!
you mentioned at first, on Monday, that your coach told you NOT to withdraw and then later the same day
you posted this:
I've read about some of you going silent for months. I'm thinking of going silent except to respond to her contact for the remaining 9 days of my trip. Yeah, I know! This is different for me. Figured I would "press to test".
When doing DR, how long were you guys implementing changes before changing things up again?
How long before we changed things up? You have not done a single course of action for 90 days...
25, you are absolutely right. I haven't done anything consistently different for 90 days. I think I was afraid that if my wife felt I was there for her at all times I would be perceived as a "lap dog". I have a tendency to be a person of extremes. It's either all "on" or all "off". No modulation. This is something I need to work on. I am going to sit down and craft a game plan for my communication with her while I am on trips. A plan that shows her I am available when she needs me, but I am not smothering her.
I mean, if you could tell immediately that some behavior was hurting things, then change. If you are not sure then first make sure your change is clearly being made and then give it time for her to trust that it's real. THEN she can see how she feels about it.
I guess I haven't given anything enough time because of my impatience. I have backed off a lot on my communication with her already, but I think I have been expecting to see positive results too soon. This has caused me to think I should be backing off even more even though I haven't given her much time to respond.
I sense so many mixed signals coming from you I have to say, a man who is unsure of himself cannot be reassuring to a wife who needs to KNOW he's there for her...
I hear you! I need to have confidence in what my DB coach is telling me and in my ability to effectively carry out his advice. Without wavering.
Don't try to reassure her for 2 weeks and then when you are "away" from home and COULD be with an OW or doing something sneaky or weird or that she does not trust
THEN stop contacting her...how odd.
I guess I really never thought of it that way. I know I'm not out catting around when I'm out of town, but that doesn't mean that she believes the same. The lack of comm while I'm gone COULD make it seem like I've got another secret life I am living. Good point. Hearing less from me while I'm gone would fuel her insecurities about me. Especially if I essentially disappear when out of town.
You're in the mode of "I must do...SOMETHING" and that's not a good place to be.
I have been that way because I have been seeking a response from her.
Trust your DB coach and do what they say until IF & when you know it's hurting things
and THEN you can make an adjustment.
This reminds me of school! We learned in navigation, the easiest way to get lost is to keep changing your course in an effort to find the destination. We were told to stick to our calculations and re-calculate if necessary, then make an informed adjustment. But never chase different headings. I've been going nowhere because of this. Thanks for pointing it out!
What traits are you most working on?
Also, instead of making your posts ALL about what she says, or does or your fears...
please tell us ONE GAL thing you do this month.
Join something, go somewhere new or sign up for a class and BE DIFFERENT and less predictable.
Not in a way that feels threatening to her, but in a way that interests YOU and thereby helps you know who you are.
One thing I am going to start working on immediately is proving to myself that I CAN enjoy life on my own.
Another thing I want to change in myself is my need to control. I know it is rooted in fear and this is something I want to get rid of.
I already have a date set for something new I want to try. I think it's gonna be very fun and I can enjoy it for the rest of my life, too. I'll use it as the basis of my new thread where I will concentrate on growth and change in myself instead of what my wife is or isn't doing. And if I fall back into that loop, please pull out the lumber!
25, I REALLY enjoy reading your posts. You are level headed, think logically and you seem to have a lot of street smarts. The knowledge you have gained thru your own life's challenges and the experience you have in your career field really help us all who are willing to listen. Thanks again for your advice!
My new thread can be found here:
Charting a New Course