Welcome to my new thread. Here are the links to my previous threads.
1st thread -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...078#Post22680782nd thread -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...709#Post22697093rd thread -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2275638&page=14th thread -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2280944&page=15th Thread -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2289293&page=16th thread -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2295834&page=1Now, a bit about this thread.
The sirens were mythical sea nymphs who lured sailors to their death on the craggy shores of the island of Anthemoessa. As ships went by, they would sing their bewitching song so beautifully that sailor got closer and closer to the shore where their ship would be thrown by the waves onto the murderous rocks surrounding the island.
This is my new challenge. As my W keeps contacting me and getting closer and closer to me, so far I haven’t been able to resist the enchantment of her presence, of her company and this closeness has robbed me of my armour, detachment.
Without detachment, I cannot outlast the fog, and without distance I cannot achieve detachment therefore I must strengthen my will power and resist at all cost my W’s ever growing hold over me until I can pull back and allow her to miss me.
It is said that Odysseus managed to get pass the island by having his men put wax in their ears so they couldn’t hear the mesmerizing chant while he himself was tied to the mast of his ship. The sirens were so distressed to see a man hear their song and still manage to escape that they jumped into the sea and drowned.
While this distance is meant to preserve my sanity and protect me from further pain, perhaps it can be twofold and maybe, my W too will feel similar distress at seeing me pull away in the face of her constant presence.
With this said, today I informed my W when we were about to get back home after our morning’s activities and she got here shortly after us. I greeted her civilly and we exchanged platitudes and then I excused myself and went to practice my guitar as I was called yesterday and it looks like my gig will be resuming this week. The owner of the café also wants me to play tonight.
In fact, todays’ interaction with my W were very minimal and restricted to necessities as in the few words exchanged while putting up mosquito screens in D8’s bedroom together. I surprised myself by not initiating conversation while W was sitting at the dinning room table and I was grilling the fish for dinner. It was a bit awkward but I managed to look busy cooking and dancing to good old R&B which was playing (something I’ve always done while cooking). She on the other hand tried to make herself look busy by reading one of D8s books but I don’t buy it. She was truly dumbfounded.
During dinner me and D8 interacted as we usually do and had a good time while wife simply ate. After dinner she thanked me for the food (which she really liked by the way as she said countless time how great it was) and again, I replied civilly and went to my room.
I noticed how W often went to D8’s room and closed the door and I figured she was checking her phone and therefore seems to be respecting my boundaries.
Contact is inevitable as we have D8 and I always told W that she could come around as often as she wished. In fact, that is one of the two reasons why I chose to come back to this city for D8's sake (the other being to try to save my family). With that on my mind, it’s evident that I can’t totally avoid contact with W but I’ll just make sure that while we are in each other’s presence, our actual contact is limited to the bare minimum, no matter how tempting she may be.
I suppose that if she does initiate a convo, I’ll need to figure out if I want to be a part of it or not. I’m quite new to this approach so I’m not quite sure. If she asks me why I’m so distant, I’ll need to come up with an answer that doesn’t involve me telling her how much I’m hurt. I guess I could just evade it and tell her that I’m fine but I have stuff on my mind.
I’m not sure I can do this but for the time being, it seems like I have to follow this path to save myself from more anxiety and pain. Perhaps I’ll need to resort to putting wax in my ears and tying myself to a mast if I wish to succeed.
Thanks you all for your time and advice and most importantly for your friendship.
It sounds like a great plan, Arsene. It also sounds as if you started implementing it successfully.
I really like the title of your new thread. It will keep reminding you of your challenge. Good luck!
Hope your gigs go well.
Good luck Arsene, seems like the way to go. I will try and follow your example. Stay strong.
You sure have a gift for writing, keep it up.
Contact is inevitable as we have D8 and I always told W that she could come around as often as she wished.
Arsene, I would strongly advise you to rethink this. This shouldn't be this open-ended, and without more structure. Your wife needs to feel the consequences of her apparent decision to break up her family, and yet you're giving her total unfettered access to probably the single best aspect of that family.
I'm NOT saying to unreasonably restrict access to her daughter. I'm saying it should have more structure to it, and be more respectful of YOUR time with your daughter.
Starsky
It might actually be helpful to your D, too.
Just got back from my gig. I went well. Actually I got asked to do a wedding in January. Who knew?
Yeah, I felt like W was very pensive all day and that is good. Furthermore, she sent me a text to ask me if she could stay over tomorrow night and redeem one of her coupons (D8 gave her coupons for sleep-overs). She is actually respecting my boundaries by simply asking. That is good.
Re: the open-ended access to D8, it's the way I want it, for D8's sake, for the time being. I will not use D8 to make W feel the consequences of her actions. W is D8's mother and they both already feels the impact of this separation. I'm not going to hurt D8 just to make a point with W.
Even with this total access to D8, W still isn't here that often and D8 and I have plenty of quality father-daughter time. The girl misses her mother and she should be able to see her as often as W is willing to come around. IMO.
Contact is inevitable as we have D8 and I always told W that she could come around as often as she wished.
Arsene, I would strongly advise you to rethink this. This shouldn't be this open-ended, and without more structure. Your wife needs to feel the consequences of her apparent decision to break up her family, and yet you're giving her total unfettered access to probably the single best aspect of that family.
I'm NOT saying to unreasonably restrict access to her daughter. I'm saying it should have more structure to it, and be more respectful of YOUR time with your daughter.
Starsky
Yup... And as you tend to ease into these boundaries, it might be a good idea to set up the first one by telling her you need at least a couple hours of notice before she drops by. This will give you some time to set something up for you to do when W shows up... Let your daughter know that you're going to let her and W spend a little time alone... some Mommy/Daughter time while you go take some Me time...
And once in a while... let W know that it's NOT a good time for her to stop by... Consequence of her actions that she'll feel very quickly...
You need to break this cycle.
Re: the open-ended access to D8, it's the way I want it, for D8's sake, for the time being. I will not use D8 to make W feel the consequences of her actions. W is D8's mother and they both already feels the impact of this separation. I'm not going to hurt D8 just to make a point with W.
Even with this total access to D8, W still isn't here that often and D8 and I have plenty of quality father-daughter time. The girl misses her mother and she should be able to see her as often as W is willing to come around. IMO.
You need to look at this from another angle Arsene...
By asking for some advanced notice, you're giving YOURSELF time to set something else up... You're not punishing D... You're simply ending your self-inflicted punishment.
I had struggled with this very thing. We meaning kids and myself- wound up that he came and went, would say one thing, do another. They were MORE upset by lack of consistency, and not being able to count on H. Hopefully by giving boundaries - it will help alleviate this for the kids and also to force H into being more purposeful and deliberate in his visiting. If that makes any sense? It is not really saying he can't see them. It is saying he has to show us respect as well.
And if W actually set up a time then D wouldn't be wondering "When will I see Mommy?" which is difficult for little kids.
Being a free spirit is great but kids need a bit of structure that they can depend on from their parents.
Hi Arsene, i like your new thread title.
And your attitude. :-)
I am struggling with something very similar regarding H coming to the house without set times. For the pat two years, H has been traveling almost non-stop. he spends more time away than he does in town. So I had been hesitant to put boundaries in place because he has such little time with them as it stands...and the kids are heartbroken enough as it is.
I would like to think that I will know when its time. At least I hope I do.
Arsene
I admire your goals and agree with the reasoning about not wanting to use D8 as a way to punish w. Besides, she already has lost so much time with her mom and it punishes d8 who doesn't deserve it.
But is asking for some advance notice, really so unreasonable? It would give you a chance to GAL or at least pretend to, and work on detaching from w more.
Let them have their one on one time and GET OUT of there FOR YOU...
and maybe b/c your w can figure something out about life without you and with periodic visits with her d...
I have a hard time believing she won't miss it a lot. But as Denver said, SHE has to figure this out and she cannot do that with you cooking and dancing around in the kitchen in front of her.
To me that's NOT GAL. You have to be around your w LESS.
Agreed? Then figure out a way to do it asap.
IF your w wakes up then her words won't be so inconsistent.
But remember to stay quieter when she talks, SHE KNOWS HOW YOU FEEL...for sure.
No need to repeat it again. IF she ASKS you a question, answer.
If not, no more volunteering your feelings. They're clear to her. Very...
and your words come off as pursuit which comes off as controlling.
So you know what NOT to do.
Let's go GAL and find some things you LIKE TO DO.
Good luck
Contact is inevitable as we have D8 and I always told W that she could come around as often as she wished.
Arsene, I would strongly advise you to rethink this. This shouldn't be this open-ended, and without more structure. Your wife needs to feel the consequences of her apparent decision to break up her family, and yet you're giving her total unfettered access to probably the single best aspect of that family.
I'm NOT saying to unreasonably restrict access to her daughter. I'm saying it should have more structure to it, and be more respectful of YOUR time with your daughter.
Starsky
I disagree.
Children should be encouraged to be involved as much with BOTH parents, with as little visibility to the division as possible. Structure related to either of you should not be a power play.
Do what is RIGHT for the kids.
Both of you support THEM (the children) in their all their endeavors, even if you can list 20 things that supports your spouse is an undesirable influence.
Both of you show up to whatever they have going for them.
Liberal visititation/and flexible visitation regardless of your DB / divorce stance.
Avoid anything negative about your spouse or their OP (On your behalf: they make up their own minds. Related to THEM: Any thing you say about your spouse, they take internally, because your spouse is half of them. This is true even if you are the only one who ever sees them and your spouse is across the ocean and never sees them. )
If your spouse is really truly an undesirable influence: a crackhead, drug dealing, mob-related, serial murderer:
Let them show up to support your child
Allow flexible if supervised visitation
Don't talk bad about them (they 'hear' the bad about themselves not your ex)
If your spouse treated you badly:
Your kid will understand in the end even if you don't speak it. They will understand BETTER if you don't speak it.
Additionally -
When I say I disagree--it's as I understand Starsky. He is a long respected poster and I understand he has the best interest of the children at heart. I'm not looking to disagree with Starsky here. Looking to support the child.
I don't think he was saying to discourage visitation. Merely to set some boundaries so that it is productive and positive rather than being something that makes one parent feel uncomfortable. My H knows he can visit or take them at any time he would like. However, I do ask he give me a days notice and let me know when he will pick up and drop off. That is what I would ask of ANYONE. Not just H. I don't think that just allowing the spouse to come and go as they please with no real expectations is really good for anyone.
Arsene, your new thread is already growing!
Good approach. However, I agree with MKB and others that it's good to establish some structure in your and your D's lives.
Giving you at least a few hours advanced notice when she visits should not cause trouble. She might act as though she is offended, but she'll learn those are the consequences of her actions.
Also, the advanced notice will allow you to leave so your W can actually see the difference. She will notice you are not there anymore. See how it goes. If the new approach doesn't work, then you can always change it.
I mostly agree with dbmod, but still, there needs to be structure. Children need and crave structure. Also, you are only putting off the inevitable. Such liberal parenting schedules are simply not possible if there is a divorce. IMO, might as well show your W what the reality is, and also, unfortunately, your D. That's my opinion anyway.
I don't think he was saying to discourage visitation. Merely to set some boundaries so that it is productive and positive rather than being something that makes one parent feel uncomfortable. My H knows he can visit or take them at any time he would like. However, I do ask he give me a days notice and let me know when he will pick up and drop off. That is what I would ask of ANYONE. Not just H. I don't think that just allowing the spouse to come and go as they please with no real expectations is really good for anyone.
This. ^^^
LIBERAL, yes. But also STRUCTURED. Open-ended, unstructured visitation isn't good for anyone -- even D8.
Starsky
Thank you all for your comments,
First let me start by saying how this all feels wrong. W is here now, redeeming her "sleep-over coupon" and we aren't talking. They were at the pool when I got home from work and they just got home now. I said hi, was civil to W and playful with D8. They had dinner (I went to my room while they ate) and D8 got ready for bed. I put D8 to bed and W went in to tell her a story.
W has been distant. She is cold and even angry sounding. I even heard her tell the maid to make sure to leave the key out. I guess she's planning to go out later tonight. It's almost like I've taken a huge step back. Is this really suppose to get me my wife back? Isn't she going to think that she was right to leave me?
About setting more boundaries for visitation, for the time being I don't think it's necessary. I feel ok with the way things are for now but I thank you for your concern and your advice. So far W has given me warning and been more precise as to what time she was coming. She seems to be respecting this boundary so I'll leave it at that for now.
SIGH!!!! Is that what they mean when they say counter intuitive? This is going to be harder than I thought!!
Well, she did leave the house once D8 was asleep and went to a nearby internet cafe. I saw her on FB and we exchanged a "few" words. She just got back and went straight to bed. I was in my bedroom so we didn't meet. I sure hope this gets easier.
What kind of words did you exchange? And was it via FB that you interacted? Sorry, I'm a little confused by this part...
It is said that Odysseus managed to get pass the island by having his men put wax in their ears so they couldn’t hear the mesmerizing chant while he himself was tied to the mast of his ship. The sirens were so distressed to see a man hear their song and still manage to escape that they jumped into the sea and drowned.
While this distance is meant to preserve my sanity and protect me from further pain, perhaps it can be twofold and maybe, my W too will feel similar distress at seeing me pull away in the face of her constant presence.
Ha! Love your first post in this thread Arsene, so poetic!!
I suppose that if she does initiate a convo, I’ll need to figure out if I want to be a part of it or not. I’m quite new to this approach so I’m not quite sure.
It sounds like you're trying to go dark? That can be tough indeed when kids are involved. I tried to go dim, but it was a big flop. Turns out we're around each other way too much because of our kids and all their activities. Michele mentions in DR that there is no such thing as divorce when kids are involved and she is sooooooo right. Wish W could see that. Anyway, remember that detaching and going dim is to be done lovingly. As Michele said:
"successful DBers cherish their spouse and show a great deal of compassion. They almost always keep their pain to themselves... they "act as if" things are normal in their life."
I like that word "compassion" because it really highlights that detachment is not about being cold and distant. It's about giving space, but still showing compassion.
If she asks me why I’m so distant, I’ll need to come up with an answer that doesn’t involve me telling her how much I’m hurt. I guess I could just evade it and tell her that I’m fine but I have stuff on my mind.
Be careful, she may perceive that as hiding emotions and "more of the same" behavior. Would it not be more truthful to say "I just think you and I could both use some time and space to think about things and decide where to go from here"? Because that is what detachment is all about. Plus your response is a little mysterious, you're laying some seeds of doubt that maybe she can't just assume you'll always wait for her.
Well, she did leave the house once D8 was asleep and went to a nearby internet cafe. I saw her on FB and we exchanged a "few" words. She just got back and went straight to bed. I was in my bedroom so we didn't meet. I sure hope this gets easier.
There was a wise poster on here who used to often say, "Hope isn't a plan."
Starsky
AT, we saw each other on FB and had a quick chat about meeting on FB when we were just in the same house. She then told me she had a "chat" appointment with her sister who lives in a nearby country. Nothing much.
AS, thanks for your constant support. I figure that if one day W and I end up going through these pages together, I might as well make them interesting to read
.
Thanks for your advice on detaching. In fact, this morning, when I got up to say goodbye to D8 who was leaving for school with W, I was my pleasant self, and W seemed to mirror that. We had a bit of an interaction re: my visa and they left. I felt better about that than I did about the merely "civil" approach.
I also like that compassionate approach. I'm not here to punish my W. That would mean that I am judging and condemning her, which are things I used to do and part of my 180s. I need to create some distance for myself, not to hurt her. I can do that by remaining fun, loving and caring when we do meet. I just need to make sure we don't meet too often, or for too long.
"I just think you and I could both use some time and space to think about things and decide where to go from here"
I like that answer AS. It is truthful and you are right, it is also a bit mysterious or at least thought provoking.
Starsky, you are right. Hope alone is no plan but hope is an important part of any plan for where is the need to plan if we hope for nothing.
Thanks for sticking around mates.
I'm not here to punish my W.
True. However, you're also not here to shelter her from the natural consequences of her own poor decisions.
You'd be wise to learn to see the distinction.
Starsky
You are also not here to be punished by your W.
AT, we saw each other on FB and had a quick chat about meeting on FB when we were just in the same house. She then told me she had a "chat" appointment with her sister who lives in a nearby country. Nothing much.
Hmmm...
Do you know one of the best moves I made as far as helping myself along the "Detachment" route?
Stopping the FB train when it came to my W.
I stopped checking in on her, her friends etc... I went so far as to hide her from my timeline... And although she's since "Defriended" me, I don't miss a thing about it.
I look at it this way: If she wanted me to know what was going on in her life... She'd tell me. Or she'd share it with me directly in SOME way...
Have you thought about hiding her from your timeline? Reading back through your thread, there have been quite a few posts by W that have sent you into a tizzy... with no positive results on the other side... Maybe it's time to take a step...
Lots of good comments/advice for you, Arsene.
DBing doesn't mean being cold toward your S. What you need to do is to be in friendly terms with your W, and letting her know you "get" that she does not want to be in the M anymore, and that you have a happy life of your own. See the difference? It's not easy to do. I failed at it many times.
You must convey that you understand what she wants and respect it, while being fun, and mysterious, and sexy, and all the things she liked about you when you first started dating. The change you're trying to spark is in her head. But only she can change her own thoughts. You're there to provide the fuel for that change. I hope you see what I'm trying to say.
Lots of good comments/advice for you, Arsene.
DBing doesn't mean being cold toward your S. What you need to do is to be in friendly terms with your W, and letting her know you "get" that she does not want to be in the M anymore, and that you have a happy life of your own. See the difference? It's not easy to do. I failed at it many times.
You must convey that you understand what she wants and respect it, while being fun, and mysterious, and sexy, and all the things she liked about you when you first started dating. The change you're trying to spark is in her head. But only she can change her own thoughts. You're there to provide the fuel for that change. I hope you see what I'm trying to say.
There should be a 'like' button! ^^^
I agree with Denver....
*like Tori's comment.
This is good advice for you, me, and other DBer's.
Lots of good comments/advice for you, Arsene.
DBing doesn't mean being cold toward your S. What you need to do is to be in friendly terms with your W, and letting her know you "get" that she does not want to be in the M anymore, and that you have a happy life of your own. See the difference? It's not easy to do. I failed at it many times.
You must convey that you understand what she wants and respect it, while being fun, and mysterious, and sexy, and all the things she liked about you when you first started dating. The change you're trying to spark is in her head. But only she can change her own thoughts. You're there to provide the fuel for that change. I hope you see what I'm trying to say.
I agree Tori, Denver and Afa. It's what I'm trying to do, and I'm also failing at it miserably but I know it's where I need to be right now. Thanks!
Baby steps... See your own baby steps, Not just your W's You can't change a whole life's worth of thinking patterns overnight.
Today didn't start off as a great day but it turned out ok in the end. I felt loads of anxiety and I wonder if it has to do with the fact that I missed 2 days of my A/Ds (Hunted doctor down for 4 days for a new prescription), and now I've been back on them for 2 days. Hopefully this won't happen again.
In the end, though, I used meditation techniques to get myself in a better place and I think it worked. I had to do it a few times during the day because the anxiety kept coming back but each time,I managed to chase it away.
I saw W when I got home. She spent the day with D8 (she usually picks her up on Wednesdays) and was leaving for work when I got here. She was very pleasant and talkative so I obliged her and talked a bit. She mentioned (in passing?) that she had read a blog I'd sent her by Jed Diamond on the Angry Men Syndrome. We'd talked about that over a month ago and I'd mentioned it because she had read other stuff by him and always said how she respected his opinion on stuff.
He writes a lot of stuff on how to deal with the man you love when he goes through this and his stance is on working together on the marriage. She told me she read it and said she thought her mom was going through that. I'm just happy she read it. It shows a certain curiosity about me.
Other small news, D8 told me tonight that lately when W calls her, she always asks about me. She said that W never used to do that. Again, probably means nothing but it's nice to know.
Meeting W again Tomorrow morning for yet another "immigration date". Will I be lured by her conversation? Should I join in if she initiates? I'll play it by ear.
Hey, Arsene, it's okay to talk to her and show you're smart, and a great conversationalist. Remember: you are atractive. You are interesting. You are self-assured. Say this stuff to yourself over and over. Read my advice from before. I've learned all of this from my coach!
Remember what SD has said. When observing...'isn't that interesting'. Continue on your path Arsene.
I am glad the meditation has helped you. One thing I do know about the meds...it has to be consistent. It can mess one up if irregular. Consistency and time makes them work.
Always here with you Arsene. :-)
Thanks Tori and Busting,
I did meet W this morning and we had a nice time, light convo, mostly about D8 and a laugh here and there. Nothing too involved although she started talking about a common friend who is going through marital problems and said that she would have left a long time ago had she been in her situation. That woman isn't allowed to do anything, had to leave her job and is pretty much this guy's slave. W said she realizes how lucky she was that she could continue singing and doing things she liked. I had to focus hard not to comment and to simply validate her feelings.
Now that this is out of the way for a few days, back to backing off.
Sounds as if you did brilliantly, Arsene. (I always think of Arsène Lupin when I read your thread!) Well done with the validating and not commenting. It must have been so tempting.
If I even miss one day of ADs, I can really feel it. You should start to feel less anxious again v soon.
Good luck with the backing off now.
Good job, Arsene. Keep up this way of behaving when you're around her. Avoid R talks if you can...at least for now.
Thanks,
It does feel a bit better but that might be because the meds are kicking in again. I'm focusing on GAL right now and pushing on with a few things which were on hold so I hope to make myself busy to the point where I don't see W all that much. I've read the thread on pursuer/distancer and it does ring a bell so I'm going to see if I can make her come a little closer.
It was a bit awkward tonight at my gig. I'm starting to meet more and more people and tonight I met this drummer who remembers meeting me a few years back and started talking about my W. I don't really want this in the open so I just nodded and smiled and stayed quiet.
At work today, it came up and I kind of had to tell a few people there that my W and I were separated. Maybe it's what I need to get out of denial, which is where I think I am sometimes. Really, I still think that W will wake up and come back home. Is it wishful thinking, me knowing my wife or delusion? Who knows? Maybe telling people about it will wake me up from my delusions, if that is what they are.
Thanks,
It does feel a bit better but that might be because the meds are kicking in again. I'm focusing on GAL right now and pushing on with a few things which were on hold so I hope to make myself busy to the point where I don't see W all that much. I've read the thread on pursuer/distancer and it does ring a bell so I'm going to see if I can make her come a little closer.
It was a bit awkward tonight at my gig. I'm starting to meet more and more people and tonight I met this drummer who remembers meeting me a few years back and started talking about my W. I don't really want this in the open so I just nodded and smiled and stayed quiet.
At work today, it came up and I kind of had to tell a few people there that my W and I were separated. Maybe it's what I need to get out of denial, which is where I think I am sometimes. Really, I still think that W will wake up and come back home. Is it wishful thinking, me knowing my wife or delusion? Who knows? Maybe telling people about it will wake me up from my delusions, if that is what they are.
Not trying to be harsh Arsene, but I completely think that you are in denial of your situation. If you haven't told co-workers, friends and family that you are separated by now, then there is a problem. That's not to say that you need to tell them details, but to not tell people who you are close to the reality of your life... well, it screams of denial.
Not that it matters, but I decided very early on to be very upfront with everyone close to me about the situation, ie, my W leaving me. I just viewed it like ripping off a band aid. ONce it was out there, I dropped the topic. When others brought it up when I didn't feel like talking about it, I politely told them so.
I think that getting out of this denial will help you take a step forward with what you need to do... which is let your W be and let her travel her own path without you.
JMO Arsene.
I kindly disagree. At work, it's no one's business that you and your W are separated, unless you and your coworkers are friends.
Family? that's another story. They don't need details, though.
I do agree that you must let your W travel her own path, though.
Between males telling them this allows the other males to step up and carry the work load for awhile. But in time it also allows them to step up and tell Arnse to step up and commit to his responsibilities at work again.
I am speaking from a male point of view. No disrespect intended Tori.
Arsene I have a question for you.
Why do you protect your wife from feeling the agony she has caused you? How do you think she will ever learn if she does not know this knowledge?
Arsene I have a question for you.
Why do you protect your wife from feeling the agony she has caused you? How do you think she will ever learn if she does not know this knowledge?
^^^^ YES ^^^^
Hey Arsene
It's been a while mate, but in all seriousness CB's question is really valid.
I get why you would still want to protect your wife's feelings, because it is a natural reaction to protect the one's we love no matter what they have done to us.
In this case though by protecting her feelings here you are denying your W the opportunity to go through these feelings and emotions, in the hope that she would reflect upon her life choices, consequences to these choices and to ask herself what she truly wants out of life.
Through your wife's actions she has given you this gift to obtain this knowledge. The only way you can help your wife learn is to stop being her protector and to be what Denver sometimes refers to as a "lighthouse" for your wife.
Right now she might not see the lighthouse shining bright, but if her internal storms pass and she looks for guidance, she will see the lighthouse, she will see you.
Keep to your own path.
Bill
Thanks Denver,
I think the key word here is "close". As you know, I'm kind of new it this city and I haven't yet develop that many close relationship as this takes time. There is also the fact that this is still a "taboo" subject in this country and I haven't really felt like opening up to acquaintances about this.
Nonetheless, I recognize that this might be some sort of denial. BTW, the few friends I do have and my close family know of what is happening.
CB, I'm not sure I understand your question. I never felt like I was protecting my wife as people I now know are not usually in her circle. The few people I meet now who might know her are not close enough for me to start talking about my situation. Perhaps subconsciously you are right. I don't know.
I guess deep inside, I am embarrassed because it turns out she isn't the perfect person I thought she was. I used to be so proud of her and thought she was different from other women. In fact, there is a stigma in this country for women who do her job. Women who sing in bars (heck, women who simply ARE in bars) are automatically branded as "loose" women and I always stood up for her, and now, she is living the stereotype. I feel like I've been fooled all these years. She's fallen off the pedestal I jacked her up on.
As far as learning, I think she is learning, but at her pace. There is nothing I can put in her face that is going to make her learn any faster. She knows the consequences of her actions. She lives them everyday that she spends away from her daughter, sleeping on the floor of some room with shared bathrooms and no hot water. She lives through them every time she HAS to take on a job, whether or not she feels like it. She lives through them every time she talks to her friends and has to lie so she doesn't come out like the "baddy". Me shaming her in public (any more than she is doing herself by her actions) isn't going to help my situation. JMO.
Hey Arsene
It's been a while mate, but in all seriousness CB's question is really valid.
I get why you would still want to protect your wife's feelings, because it is a natural reaction to protect the one's we love no matter what they have done to us.
In this case though by protecting her feelings here you are denying your W the opportunity to go through these feelings and emotions, in the hope that she would reflect upon her life choices, consequences to these choices and to ask herself what she truly wants out of life.
Through your wife's actions she has given you this gift to obtain this knowledge. The only way you can help your wife learn is to stop being her protector and to be what Denver sometimes refers to as a "lighthouse" for your wife.
Right now she might not see the lighthouse shining bright, but if her internal storms pass and she looks for guidance, she will see the lighthouse, she will see you.
Keep to your own path.
Bill
That's a great post from Bill. There is a difference between that lighthouse and being a crutch. You are the lighthouse by living your life well, by not giving up on the possibility of reconciliation, by being a good father... by loving your W from afar while letting her follow her own path without you.
I wasn't trying to slam you Arsene. I just think that if you can't tell someone, 'I don't know if you know, but my W and I are currently separated', then you are protecting her, and you are silently in denial of reality. You are trying to pretend that things are different than they really are. In fact, I see you doing this with your daughter in some ways. I'm just not sure how healthy it is for her, and you, to continue living your lives with the idea that your W will be coming home. It is what is right now. And you should always live life acknowledging what IS... IMO. Hopefully that 'IS" changes and you can begin living life with a new reality... but not yet.
If any of that makes sense...
It is hard Arsene. No one is saying that it isn't.
CB, I'm not sure I understand your question. I never felt like I was protecting my wife as people I now know are not usually in her circle. The few people I meet now who might know her are not close enough for me to start talking about my situation. Perhaps subconsciously you are right. I don't know.
I guess deep inside, I am embarrassed because it turns out she isn't the perfect person I thought she was. I used to be so proud of her and thought she was different from other women. In fact, there is a stigma in this country for women who do her job. Women who sing in bars (heck, women who simply ARE in bars) are automatically branded as "loose" women and I always stood up for her, and now, she is living the stereotype. I feel like I've been fooled all these years. She's fallen off the pedestal I jacked her up on.
As far as learning, I think she is learning, but at her pace. There is nothing I can put in her face that is going to make her learn any faster. She knows the consequences of her actions. She lives them everyday that she spends away from her daughter, sleeping on the floor of some room with shared bathrooms and no hot water. She lives through them every time she HAS to take on a job, whether or not she feels like it. She lives through them every time she talks to her friends and has to lie so she doesn't come out like the "baddy". Me shaming her in public (any more than she is doing herself by her actions) isn't going to help my situation. JMO.
I am just heading out Arnse. But you did not understand what I asked you.
I asked you about hiding yourself from her. Pretending that it is not ripping you apart on the inside. Always being upbeat and happy to see her when it is the furthest thing from the truth. Not letting her know how it ruining your heath and you are on anti-depressants so you can function day to day with her random drop-ins and D8's hurt and the consistent ongoing affair.
Nothing about shaming her in public. I do not know why you keep going back to that train of thought.
Is it because it made you uncomfortable so you had to deflect?
I guess deep inside, I am embarrassed because it turns out she isn't the perfect person I thought she was.
THAT is it right there ^^^. Exactly what you need to come to terms with. It is what is at the heart of every action you take Arsene.
And I understand it well.
But you are protecting her. You are protecting her from the people that you know, and you are protecting her from your D.
I agree with Chatter that you need to stop protecting her.
That doesn't mean publicly humiliating her. It means just being upfront about the situation. Let her deal with the repercussions of that.
For me, I was embarrassed about my W's actions too. I felt fooled as well.
How I handled it. I was open with everyone, including SS and my D, about the status of things. Just the bare bones. I did not offer details. I did not seek to embarrass my W or put her on the defensive. I was just honest. And if anyone ever criticized her to my face, I did defend her. I did take the heat for why we were separated. But after a while, I got sick of defending her. Instead, I learned to just politely excused myself from the conversation.
The bottom line is this. It is not your job to protect your w from ANYONE about the choices that she makes. It is also not your job to make anyone judge her in any particular way. IMO, you should be open and honest about the facts, but let people come to their own conclusions. What that means for you W is, quite frankly, her problem to deal with.
If you live your life well, focus on you and your D, and continue to make the right choices, it won't matter what other people know... even if you reconcile.
I have had to deal with the natural negative backlash against my W since our reconciliation. All I say is this, 'if I can forgive her, then, as my [insert relationship, friend, mom etc], you will forgive her as well.'
You deal with that when, if, the time comes. And it can be done if you are just upfront with people about what is going on and your feelings about it (even if your feelings are 'I don't want to talk about it').
Arsene,
Listen and follow the advice above. You know my sich, how they have helped me make it thus far. I obviously still have a long road to travel, bit they and You have made more it tolerable. You can do this.
Arsene I have a question for you.
Why do you protect your wife from feeling the agony she has caused you? How do you think she will ever learn if she does not know this knowledge?
Arsene: I think THIS ^^^^ is probably the most important post you've had on your thread yet. And it's one that you NEED to answer.
You don't have to answer it here, but you owe it to yourself to toss this around in your head and come to a true conclusion.
We ALL know that you love your W... That you're trying anything and everything to get back together with her.
But all of us outside of your situation are seeing the same thing... What you're doing now is simply NOT working.
For anyone.
Including your D.
I completely understand the social stigma you're dealing with here, and your reluctance to be open and honest with people you aren't particularly close with...
But the biggest issue I see is... well... You're not being honest with yourself right now.
You, much like me, are grasping at straws... searching high and low of ANY signs of a thaw in your situation...
But in that desperation to see progress, you're sabotaging the hard work you've been doing.
The facts are the facts here Arsene... While she MIGHT be rethinking her decision... she's taking
ZERO action in rectifying the damage she's done.
A few posts on FB, a couple cryptic conversations, and spending a little more time at the house...
What you see as progress... I see as the strengthening of the limbo you're in...
JMO.
I read a LOT about you "getting back to backing off" and "going back to GALing"... and then a post or two later, you're talking about yet another asinine conversation your W baited you into.
And that wouldn't be a big issue if you were able to simply shrug it off and move on... but at this point... you can't... you analyze, you interpret, and you look for signs of life in the wastelands...
I guess I count myself lucky that my W isn't dropping by the house or trying to have conversations with me anymore...
But you know what? I'm pretty sure I created that lucky streak once I really and truly set the boundaries I set.
And It was the hardest thing I've had to do... To truly realize that I HAD TO stop grasping at every kind word she might say... every moment of doubt she had... and every dying ember of a doomed relationship... because my heart told me that if I tried hard enough, I could reignite that old flame...
But that old flame...
It burned out...
Or more accurately: It burned our F-in old relationship to the ground... and I had to stop staring at those smoldering ashes and remembering how great it USED to be...
Arsene, you HAVE to figure out how to let her go... You HAVE to let her try to find her own way in this world WITHOUT you... because as long as you're there to catch her when she stumbles, you'll be exactly where you are today...
And we all know that's not a place worth living in.
GET YOUR A$$ BACK IN THIS FOXHOLE PRIVATE.
Arsene I have a question for you.
Why do you protect your wife from feeling the agony she has caused you? How do you think she will ever learn if she does not know this knowledge?
Arsene: I think THIS ^^^^ is probably the most important post you've had on your thread yet. And it's one that you NEED to answer.
You don't have to answer it here, but you owe it to yourself to toss this around in your head and come to a true conclusion.
We ALL know that you love your W... That you're trying anything and everything to get back together with her.
But all of us outside of your situation are seeing the same thing... What you're doing now is simply NOT working.
For anyone.
Including your D.
I completely understand the social stigma you're dealing with here, and your reluctance to be open and honest with people you aren't particularly close with...
But the biggest issue I see is... well... You're not being honest with yourself right now.
You, much like me, are grasping at straws... searching high and low of ANY signs of a thaw in your situation...
But in that desperation to see progress, you're sabotaging the hard work you've been doing.
The facts are the facts here Arsene... While she MIGHT be rethinking her decision... she's taking
ZERO action in rectifying the damage she's done.
A few posts on FB, a couple cryptic conversations, and spending a little more time at the house...
What you see as progress... I see as the strengthening of the limbo you're in...
JMO.
I read a LOT about you "getting back to backing off" and "going back to GALing"... and then a post or two later, you're talking about yet another asinine conversation your W baited you into.
And that wouldn't be a big issue if you were able to simply shrug it off and move on... but at this point... you can't... you analyze, you interpret, and you look for signs of life in the wastelands...
I guess I count myself lucky that my W isn't dropping by the house or trying to have conversations with me anymore...
But you know what? I'm pretty sure I created that lucky streak once I really and truly set the boundaries I set.
And It was the hardest thing I've had to do... To truly realize that I HAD TO stop grasping at every kind word she might say... every moment of doubt she had... and every dying ember of a doomed relationship... because my heart told me that if I tried hard enough, I could reignite that old flame...
But that old flame...
It burned out...
Or more accurately: It burned our F-in old relationship to the ground... and I had to stop staring at those smoldering ashes and remembering how great it USED to be...
Arsene, you HAVE to figure out how to let her go... You HAVE to let her try to find her own way in this world WITHOUT you... because as long as you're there to catch her when she stumbles, you'll be exactly where you are today...
And we all know that's not a place worth living in.
GET YOUR A$$ BACK IN THIS FOXHOLE PRIVATE.
GREAT post AT ^^^
AT
Awesome post brother.
I am just heading out Arnse. But you did not understand what I asked you.
I asked you about hiding yourself from her. Pretending that it is not ripping you apart on the inside. Always being upbeat and happy to see her when it is the furthest thing from the truth. Not letting her know how it ruining your heath and you are on anti-depressants so you can function day to day with her random drop-ins and D8's hurt and the consistent ongoing affair.
Nothing about shaming her in public. I do not know why you keep going back to that train of thought.
Is it because it made you uncomfortable so you had to deflect?
This is what DB recommends CB. I don't think that her seeing me sad and depressed and hurt is going to help my case in any way other than have her pity me, which I don't really want. I'm not acting "as if" to protect her CB, I'm doing it to protect myself in a way and to protect my D8 as well as to better my chances at making my W wonder if she is indeed doing the right thing. Again, that is what DB recommends. Is this what you are referring to?
Don't worry mate, I don't feel uncomfortable and didn't think I had deflected anything.
We ALL know that you love your W... That you're trying anything and everything to get back together with her.
But all of us outside of your situation are seeing the same thing... What you're doing now is simply NOT working.
For anyone.
Including your D.
I completely understand the social stigma you're dealing with here, and your reluctance to be open and honest with people you aren't particularly close with...
But the biggest issue I see is... well...
You're not being honest with yourself right now.Yeah, I can see that mate! I've not been able to contemplate life without W. It just doesn't make sense.You, much like me, are grasping at straws... searching high and low of ANY signs of a thaw in your situation...
But in that desperation to see progress, you're sabotaging the hard work you've been doing.
The facts are the facts here Arsene... While she MIGHT be rethinking her decision... she's taking
ZERO action in rectifying the damage she's done.
I know and this is difficult to accept right now.A few posts on FB, a couple cryptic conversations, and spending a little more time at the house...
What you see as progress... I see as the strengthening of the limbo you're in...
I have to disagree with you on this one. We went from arguing on a daily basis (or pretty much whenever we met) to actually talking and even enjoying each other's company. I know I'm not there yet but that is progress. I think my W has managed to get through her anger towards me and is starting to realise that there might be something worth thinking about. To me that is progress. As far as the FB stuff and all that you are right, I do let it affect me more than it should, considering what it is.
I do see where you might be coming from AT but with all due respect, our situations are very different and there is no one-size-fits-all solution. The issue of boundaries is one I have considered and one I am no ready to embrace just yet. Perhaps the day will come but that day is not today.JMO.
I read a LOT about you "getting back to backing off" and "going back to GALing"... and then a post or two later, you're talking about yet another asinine conversation your W baited you into.
And that wouldn't be a big issue if you were able to simply shrug it off and move on... but at this point... you can't... you analyze, you interpret, and you look for signs of life in the wastelands...
I guess I count myself lucky that my W isn't dropping by the house or trying to have conversations with me anymore...
I don't know if I agree with you here either mate. When she stops showing an interest I'll be wondering. Right now, I like that she is interested, my issue is I don't like that I can't resist her. I want to keep her interested but distance myself from her emotionally and even physically.But you know what? I'm pretty sure I created that lucky streak once I really and truly set the boundaries I set.
Again, not something I want to do now. I don't think this is the right time to set such a boundary as yours in my sitch. And It was the hardest thing I've had to do... To truly realize that I HAD TO stop grasping at every kind word she might say... every moment of doubt she had... and every dying ember of a doomed relationship... because my heart told me that if I tried hard enough, I could reignite that old flame...
But that old flame...
It burned out...
Or more accurately: It burned our F-in old relationship to the ground... and I had to stop staring at those smoldering ashes and remembering how great it USED to be...
Arsene, you HAVE to figure out how to let her go... You HAVE to let her try to find her own way in this world WITHOUT you... because as long as you're there to catch her when she stumbles, you'll be exactly where you are today...Yup mate. That I have to do. Total agreement with you on this. The toughest thing to do as well.
Much easier said than done when there is a kid involved as well as the constant contact which is now needed for me to stay in this country.And we all know that's not a place worth living in.
GET YOUR A$$ BACK IN THIS FOXHOLE PRIVATE.
Thanks for your time AT. I truly appreciate your input. Cheers!
I wasn't trying to slam you Arsene. I just think that if you can't tell someone, 'I don't know if you know, but my W and I are currently separated', then you are protecting her, and you are silently in denial of reality. You are trying to pretend that things are different than they really are. In fact, I see you doing this with your daughter in some ways. I'm just not sure how healthy it is for her, and you, to continue living your lives with the idea that your W will be coming home. It is what is right now. And you should always live life acknowledging what IS... IMO. Hopefully that 'IS" changes and you can begin living life with a new reality... but not yet.
If any of that makes sense...
It is hard Arsene. No one is saying that it isn't.
I didn't take offense Denver. I know and understand what you are saying and I have been thinking about it for a while. Perhaps that is why yesterday I mentioned it to a few people at work, to begin to make it more real to ME. It still feels unreal mate.
I still don't think I was doing it to protect my W, though. Really, it was more to protect my reality, or my embellished vision of reality. I suppose I told myself that once it is final, I'll tell people but as long as I'm in limbo, it's no one's business (and really, I still don't think it is in many ways). In this country you learn to answer what people expect you to answer and avoid lengthy explanations. The thing is, the way my life looks right now, what the heck do I need to make it final? It does look pretty final right now, doesn't it?
Thanks Denver,
Between males telling them this allows the other males to step up and carry the work load for awhile. But in time it also allows them to step up and tell Arnse to step up and commit to his responsibilities at work again.
I am speaking from a male point of view. No disrespect intended Tori.
Thanks CB but this doesn't apply as I'm self employed and if I stop committing to my responsibilities at work, my D8 doesn't eat. That is motivation enough.
I teach in-company and therefore am not part of the staff. Every one there is my student, including the big boss. I don't really have "colleagues" and most of my students speak so little English that this level of conversation would be very difficult. There is also a very stiff student-teacher rapport in this country which makes opening up to students almost impossible.
I kindly disagree. At work, it's no one's business that you and your W are separated, unless you and your coworkers are friends.
Family? that's another story. They don't need details, though.
I do agree that you must let your W travel her own path, though.
Agreed Tori. My family knows. My close friends know. Most people I see more a few times a month know, either through gossip or because they've been privy to a conversation. I didn't think I was hiding it from anyone but I also didn't feel the need to advertise it to everyone.
Thanks Bill,
Good post. I see what you're saying mate. I guess I've answered it in my answer to Denver. Cheers!
Arsene I really worry about you mate. You need support out there, even if it's just a friend to have a beer with and listen to your troubles.
Reading your posts this morning, made me realise something about you. Everything you do is with the intention of pleasing or meeting the needs of your D or your W.
What about You? Your existence on this planet isn't to just fulfil an obligation. Everyday of your life, every breath, is an opportunity to be happy, sad, make a difference etc...
You have a defense mechanism and you know what it is? DB.
DB is a toolkit, a strategy, a support mechanism, an online community.
We don't live in a DB vacuum, real life is going on all the time. Don't be scared of making decisions because of what a book said, that book isn't a literal one size fits all help book. It is there to help you, not hinder you.
One of the best things it says in the book, is to do what works.
Is it working? Are you just being a 'Nice Guy'?
You need to re-read these posts and find the courage to take charge of your life.
Do what Denver suggested, 'live for the here and now, not what might be'.
If you still think we are all wrong, and that we just don't get your sitch, think again. When your life is turned upside down and you lose things, people you held dear it hurts just the same.
Time to start living for you, not the past.
Bill
Arsene I really worry about you mate. You need support out there, even if it's just a friend to have a beer with and listen to your troubles.
Thanks mate. You are right but I didn't ask for this sitch. I'm trying to deal with what I've got as best I can. If I was back home I'd have a better support system but I'm not. I made a choice to be here for the sake of D8 and to try to save my marriage and now, I'm committed to it. It isn't easy but I'm getting my head around it little by little but it takes time to build relationships/friendships especially that I'm not at my best right now.
Reading your posts this morning, made me realise something about you. Everything you do is with the intention of pleasing or meeting the needs of your D or your W.
What about You? Your existence on this planet isn't to just fulfil an obligation. Everyday of your life, every breath, is an opportunity to be happy, sad, make a difference etc...
Again I hear you mate. You are right when you say that my whole life revolves around my D8. It does and it has to right now because the other person in her life isn't around. Again, if you've read my thread you know that I've been settling here for the last few months. I didn't have the benefit of a job, a home, friends or anything when I was handed this plate. I've been working on it and it's starting to happen but again, things take time. I've been playing a lot of music and using my gig to meet people and extend my network and I've been doing my meditation classes and swimming for myself. As far as the rest, D8 is my main priority.
You have a defense mechanism and you know what it is? DB.
DB is a toolkit, a strategy, a support mechanism, an online community.
We don't live in a DB vacuum, real life is going on all the time. Don't be scared of making decisions because of what a book said, that book isn't a literal one size fits all help book. It is there to help you, not hinder you.
I agree with you here again. I know that it is a guide but until it goes wrong, I see no reasons to improvise. I've been following LRT pretty much to a T and I have seen progress. Now I understand what you are saying however for the time being, I'm for sticking with what works instead of getting on the band wagon. Once LRT stops working, which it might based on many things I've read here and in other places, I'll consider all of your advice and I think I'll be well equipped to handle it. People have been saying this is a marathon since I got here yet sometimes I feel like they all want me to speed up. I have to pace myself.
One of the best things it says in the book, is to do what works.
Is it working? Are you just being a 'Nice Guy'?
I think that right now, it's working. I might change my mind on this later, though.
You need to re-read these posts and find the courage to take charge of your life.
Do what Denver suggested, 'live for the here and now, not what might be'.
This is something I'm coming around to these days. Slowly working my way out of denial.
If you still think we are all wrong, and that we just don't get your sitch, think again. When your life is turned upside down and you lose things, people you held dear it hurts just the same.
I don't actually think you are all wrong. I can see most of what is being said here has a lot of wisdom behind it. A lot of it is also backed up by experience so i would be a fool to dismiss it. I am not dismissing anything right now. I am moving at my pace. I'm in no hurry to see this or that happen right now. Frankly, I wouldn't know what to do if W decided to come back tomorrow. I still have a lot to work on me for the time being. My list of 180s was a tall order and I want to make sure I get this right.
Time to start living for you, not the past.
Bill
Thanks Bill. Your concern is really appreciated. My main thing right now, even more important than what this thread suggests, is to find a new direction to my life.
Unlike many people around here, I'm not settled into anything. This happened to me at a junction in my life. I was between jobs, between homes, between countries, between cities with my whole life packed in about 20 boxes and now on top of this I'm now between marital statuses. It caught me totally off guard, literally with my pants down. Now in the last few months I managed to get this new job, as well as a few opportunities (managing a cafe and a band), and I've got my music. I'm not sure where I'm going yet but I need to make that decision and follow through on it. The way I'm thinking about it now, I'm giving everything a go and see what happens. It'll keep me busy and my mind off things.
That must be tough without a social network. Is there some sort of group you can join to meet new people? You need friends you can really talk to.
Yes SS, It s been tough but it s getting better. I do have a few friends but by now they re sick of hearing about my sitch so I ve been sharing with friends overseas through fb. I also went to a few toastmasters meeting and that s been good but I ve not made any significant friendships yet. The best thing so far has been playing music once a week. I ve met a few people that way and I can see some of these relationships growing in the future.
Arsene I really worry about you mate. You need support out there, even if it's just a friend to have a beer with and listen to your troubles.
Reading your posts this morning, made me realise something about you. Everything you do is with the intention of pleasing or meeting the needs of your D or your W.
What about You? Your existence on this planet isn't to just fulfil an obligation. Everyday of your life, every breath, is an opportunity to be happy, sad, make a difference etc...
You have a defense mechanism and you know what it is? DB.
DB is a toolkit, a strategy, a support mechanism, an online community.
We don't live in a DB vacuum, real life is going on all the time. Don't be scared of making decisions because of what a book said, that book isn't a literal one size fits all help book. It is there to help you, not hinder you.
One of the best things it says in the book, is to do what works.
Is it working? Are you just being a 'Nice Guy'?
You need to re-read these posts and find the courage to take charge of your life.
Do what Denver suggested, 'live for the here and now, not what might be'.
If you still think we are all wrong, and that we just don't get your sitch, think again. When your life is turned upside down and you lose things, people you held dear it hurts just the same.
Time to start living for you, not the past.
Bill
That's a great post, Bill.
Starsky
Yeah, I can see that mate! I've not been able to contemplate life without W. It just doesn't make sense.
I hear you there, and I understand this... this statement says A LOT... The gist is this: You are where you are right now, and you KNOW, deep down, it's not working... If you can't imagine a future without the woman who is currently with another man, you've got some serious soul searching to do... ALONE... More on that later
I know and this is difficult to accept right now.
Yes it is... and it won't get any easier to accept if you don't take action to change the situation.
I have to disagree with you on this one. We went from arguing on a daily basis (or pretty much whenever we met) to actually talking and even enjoying each other's company. I know I'm not there yet but that is progress. I think my W has managed to get through her anger towards me and is starting to realise that there might be something worth thinking about. To me that is progress. As far as the FB stuff and all that you are right, I do let it affect me more than it should, considering what it is.
I do see where you might be coming from AT but with all due respect, our situations are very different and there is no one-size-fits-all solution. The issue of boundaries is one I have considered and one I am no ready to embrace just yet. Perhaps the day will come but that day is not today.
You're 100% right: Our situations ARE very different, and there IS no one-size-fits-all solution. But there most certainly are many tried and true theories that work ALMOST every time... Detachment being the key one here... So yes, there are no one-size-fits-all solutions.
BUT, that goes BOTH ways Arsene... meaning DB is a guide, a toolkit... not a crutch or a way to justify being treated poorly by your W because of signs of progress.
And you know what... you're right about the "progress" that's been made so far: She's probably past her anger (at least for now), you're not fighting and screaming at one another constantly, and you're enjoying one another's company...
But are
YOU REALLY enjoying it?
IMO, it seems like it's a CONSTANT struggle while you're with her... I won't point out specifics, but almost every instance you guys are together seems to stir up some harsh stuff in your head right now Arsene...
But let's put ALL that aside for now... let's just go ahead and accept that there's been progress made and you're moving in the right direction in the sitch...
But where are
YOU going Arsene? How are
YOU growing here? All the signs of progress you point out are what you perceive coming from you W...
I don't know if I agree with you here either mate. When she stops showing an interest I'll be wondering. Right now, I like that she is interested, my issue is I don't like that I can't resist her. I want to keep her interested but distance myself from her emotionally and even physically.
Hint: A great way to keep her interested IS to distance yourself from her emotionally and even physically!
Again, not something I want to do now. I don't think this is the right time to set such a boundary as yours in my sitch.
So long as you're okay with her doing what she's doing with OM and coming back to you and your D when it's convenient for her, you don't need to set boundaries... But as soon as you decide that's not working for you anymore...
Yup mate. That I have to do. Total agreement with you on this. The toughest thing to do as well.
Much easier said than done when there is a kid involved as well as the constant contact which is now needed for me to stay in this country.
Any progress on finding OTHER ways to stay in the country?
I'm not trying to be harsh here Arsene, and I realize that it definitely is coming off that way... I just hate seeing you sabotage yourself and your progress while looking for signs of change in her... while she continues to do exactly what she's doing...
Arsene I really worry about you mate. You need support out there, even if it's just a friend to have a beer with and listen to your troubles.
Reading your posts this morning, made me realise something about you. Everything you do is with the intention of pleasing or meeting the needs of your D or your W.
What about You? Your existence on this planet isn't to just fulfil an obligation. Everyday of your life, every breath, is an opportunity to be happy, sad, make a difference etc...
You have a defense mechanism and you know what it is? DB.
DB is a toolkit, a strategy, a support mechanism, an online community.
We don't live in a DB vacuum, real life is going on all the time. Don't be scared of making decisions because of what a book said, that book isn't a literal one size fits all help book. It is there to help you, not hinder you.
One of the best things it says in the book, is to do what works.
Is it working? Are you just being a 'Nice Guy'?
You need to re-read these posts and find the courage to take charge of your life.
Do what Denver suggested, 'live for the here and now, not what might be'.
If you still think we are all wrong, and that we just don't get your sitch, think again. When your life is turned upside down and you lose things, people you held dear it hurts just the same.
Time to start living for you, not the past.
Bill
This is great. The great thing about DB'ing and taking the opportunity to have a HAPPY life, is that the right people will add to your happiness.
Thanks AT. I understand your concern. As I said, though, I have to do this at my pace.
With regards to progress in me, as I mentioned earlier, considering where I started from, I think I've accomplished a lot in getting my life in order and achieving 180s. There is still loads to do and I am working on it. I just don't spend time writing about it. What you end up reading is the "big" stuff that's happening in my life, the stuff which affects me. There is a lot which doesn't quite make it here. That's usually the stuff that goes easily, without problems.
Then you ask me if I am enjoying the time with W. Well, there still isn't much between W and I that I truly "enjoy" right now, considering what I have to overlook everyday, but I feel like we're now in a much better place than we were a few months ago. Yes, she might still be with OM (she's spending so much time around these days that I actually wonder if he's still in the picture) . Yes, she still hasn't committed to working on the R. But at least now, we are in a position where this is a clear possibility as oppose to plain impossible.
I'm working on patience as one of my 180s and I've been told from the beginning that this would take a lot of time. I gave myself a two year plan which is to be re-assessed every few months. Right now, I'm trying to follow part of that plan until the end of December or until I notice that it isn't working anymore. So far, it's been working. I've managed to achieve most of my relationship goals, at great pain, yes but nonetheless, there is progress.
This week, W has been around almost everyday. She has even invited me out a few times (for dinner with D8), which I politely declined and today, as she has been invited to stay the night by D8 I made a point to get dressed and leave for the evening around the time D8 went to bed, leaving W to spend the evening by herself.
She's also invited me and D8 to an art exhibition on Sunday and I think I might actually accept this one since it is something she had complained about me in the past. She'd said that she was interested in local art but that I'd never really shown any interest in it myself and never supported her interest (I don't think I knew she was interested in it quite frankly). I'm still not committed to it but I'm considering it as a 180. I'll wait and see how the weekend develops before committing.
I don't think I'm sabotaging myself or any progress I might have made as IMO, I am still moving forward and sticking to my plan and although she "continues to do exactly what she's doing", she is also doing many new things which are steps forward (baby steps, but still steps forward).
Thanks again AT for your time. I really appreciate it.
Hey Arsene. I TOTALLY agree that you have to do it at your own pace. It's interesting to read your thread and the machinations you're going through now, as despite the fact that our sitchs are indeed different, there are quite a few similarities in the way we deal (or dealt) with them.
I'm 100% behind you. I need you to know that for sure!
Hell, it took months of me receiving similar posts to the ones you're seeing flood your thread now before ANY of them clicked for me at all... but one morning, I woke up and they started making sense. I have NO idea what changed, but something did.
One sentence in your previous posts sticks out quite a bit to me:
"considering what I have to overlook everyday"
This is the part that I refer to a self-sabotage. You putting aside your feelings and convictions in order to try to move along your sitch... IMO, that doesn't add up to a lasting change in the dynamics of a R... but that's just MHO
But I'm 100% in agreement with you in the "marathon" aspect and not rushing yourself in any way. I don't think that anyone here is trying to push you to DO something that you don't want to do. I know me personally... well I'm just playing the role of muse... not puppet-master!
I think the people here just want you to see from a different perspective...
I can absolutely tell that you've had great progress on yourself and your 180s, and I'm sure that those will continue.
Have an awesome weekend Arsene! You deserve it!
Arsene, I also agree that you need to take things at your own pace. I also had a very limited circle of friends, and after nearly two yeas, I finally have some friends (though it's still a work in progress.)
Things take time. I think you're seeing some positive signs from your W. She doesn't seem to be pulling away. I can't imagine how hard it must be to deal with the thoughts of the OM, but you are doing it and dealing with it the best way you can.
Sending you support and comfort...
Thanks AT. This means a lot to me. Cheers!
Arsene, I also agree that you need to take things at your own pace. I also had a very limited circle of friends, and after nearly two yeas, I finally have some friends (though it's still a work in progress.)
Things take time. I think you're seeing some positive signs from your W. She doesn't seem to be pulling away. I can't imagine how hard it must be to deal with the thoughts of the OM, but you are doing it and dealing with it the best way you can.
Sending you support and comfort...
Thanks Tori,
That is the way I see it now. I might change my mind later and if I do, I'll change what I do accordingly. This morning, I interacted with W a bit as she woke up here and took D8 to school. The interaction was pleasant but nothing more. I think it bothered her that I was out last night. That's ok. She then talked again about the art show tomorrow and reiterated her invitation for tomorrow afternoon. I asked about the details and said I'd see.
I'm rethinking things right now and I might just send D8 with her and let them spend the day together. Besides, I have something to do tomorrow evening anyway. I'm the jury for a CD compilation competition at the cafe where I play. Heck I'm even thinking about telling W to keep D8 with her overnight and take her to school on Monday. I can tell her I could use some time to myself.
I think that would be totally unexpected. I feel detached right now but I know it might not last. I was reading Denver's thread last night and I'm at the point when they just came back from Disneyland. Denver was going through a lot of the same thoughts I am right now.
Sometimes I wonder if it's a good thing to learn from others or if we just have to go through it ourselves. I mean Denver followed his gut a lot and made many mistakes. Would he be where he is now if it wasn't for the mistakes? Would he have gotten there sooner? Would he have gotten there at all? Sometimes, the very things we do to avoid a situation, end up creating what we are trying to avoid. Right now, I'm for learning from Denver's thread but following my gut. I think if I truly want to be where I need to be, I need to live it myself. I can't just make myself be there. Life needs to do that.
Cheers!
I was reading Denver's thread last night and I'm at the point when they just came back from Disneyland. Denver was going through a lot of the same thoughts I am right now.
Sometimes I wonder if it's a good thing to learn from others or if we just have to go through it ourselves. I mean Denver followed his gut a lot and made many mistakes. Would he be where he is now if it wasn't for the mistakes? Would he have gotten there sooner? Would he have gotten there at all? Sometimes, the very things we do to avoid a situation, end up creating what we are trying to avoid. Right now, I'm for learning from Denver's thread but following my gut. I think if I truly want to be where I need to be, I need to live it myself. I can't just make myself be there. Life needs to do that.
Cheers!
Those are good questions Arsene. And I have asked myself many of those questions over the past several months. Could I have fixed my situation sooner and avoided months of more frustration and pain had I made the choice to NOT let my W back into my life so easily at different points. OR, if I had done that, would I have killed my chances to be where I am today.
The answer for me NOW is that it simply doesn't matter. I am where I am, whatever the reasons, and I am happy about that.
The one point in my sitch that I continually go back to when pondering this is at the end of May/beginning of June of 2011. What has become known as the 'toilet incident'. I clearly busted my W violating the boundaries that I set. She tried use the omission excuse... that she hadn't ever, up to that point, affirmatively stated that OM was out of her life. But she knew my boundary, she knew what my expectations were, and she knew that she was wrong. I will never get her to admit that, but that is neither here nor there now, or for this post.
When that happened, I told her that I was done, filing for D, and told her not to contact me. None of those things was I actually ready to follow up on, so I should not have said them. In any case, she followed that day by calling my telephone 36 times in a single night. I was not answering. The next day, she cut off my cell phone altogether to basically force me to contact her, which I did. I had to.
When I did, she baited me into R talk and basically sold me some more snake oil. She told me that she needed some time to herself without talking to me or OM. She was going on a trip and that we would see where she was when she got back. Two weeks later, we spoke again. At this time, I told her again, more forcefully, that I would not be in her life as long as OM was. She seemed to agree to abide by that.
So I let her back into my life based upon those two conversations. We went to Disney World a few weeks later... where again I busted her violating my boundary when I checked her email and found that she had still been contacting OM.
I kind of went off the rails at that point. Almost made a mistake with an OW... actually did go on a few dates with OW... and went completely dark on W. I vowed to myself though that I would not allow myself, or my W, to be wishy washy about my boundaries. This was at the end of July/beginning of August of 2011. I believe from that point forward I was not wishy washy. I enforced my boundary pretty well from that time forward. She did cross it again a couple of different times, and both times resulted in me removing myself from her life. I no longer threatened things that I was not ready to follow through on, such as D. I simply refused to have contact with her.
But it was the point in June where I chose to let her back into my life, where I chose to go ahead and go on that trip to Disney World that I often look back on as a watershed moment where MAYBE I could have expedited the process. Had I followed through and said, 'no. I'm not letting you back into my life so easily. You blatantly violated the boundary that I set. I don't care if you think that you did not life simply because you omitted the fact that you were still seeing OM. I am done having contact with you until you completely cut off contact. And you will not be going on our family trip to Disney World. I don't care if you think that is unfair. I will not have this in my life. I am done with it." If I had followed through without that, while not talking about D (because I had not reached that point), MAYBE, just MAYBE, it would have woken her up to what she was doing... exactly what she told me 12 months later when I finally DID do that (but with the added piece of asking for D). Maybe my sitch would have ended there, and I wold have saved myself 12 months of more torture.
But I don't know. And I never will.
The other thing that could have happened is that it could have led to the end of my M.
I will never know.
Doesn't keep me from wondering though.
----
I will say this though Arsene... the difference between my sitch at that time and your sitch now, is that I had laid down that boundary. I may have let her off of the hook too easily, but she knew that boundary.
Your W has no boundaries.
A second difference is that I had much more too make up for. From what I know about your sitch, I was a much bigger a$$hole in my prior R/M with my W than you ever were with your wife. I let that affect many of my choices back then. I hadn't forgiven myself at that point.
A third difference is that when my W did choose to have OM in her life, knowing that I would not be, I let her be. This part I am talking about occurred after the Disney trip. I no longer allowed her to play both sides of the fence. She knew that if she was in contact with OM, that I would not be there for her to lean on or to spend time with.
And it was THOSE times that my W truly had the chance to see that OM was NOT what she wanted. And that what she DID want was me and our M. Yes, it took her time to get passed some other aspects, ie, forgiving me for past hurt, and getting over fear that things would go back to being bad if she did make that leap back towards our M. But it gave her the time to travel her own path... to investigate other life choices that she COULD make if she ended up deciding that they were better for her.
Ultimately, the answer to that was that those other choices were not better for her.
I don't think that she would have gotten there had I lingered around during those times.
Lastly, I was not physically capable of letting myself be in her life knowing that she was having contact with OM. That just isn't me though.
---
It's is funny that you chose to talk about that part of my sitch because I think that it really was one of the top two or three points of the entire ordeal. It was a time that I could have made the choice to do something completely different than I did.
Right or wrong though, I did it my way. And I did travel my own path doing my best to use DB and the advice here to guide me.
I lived pretty much the entire gambit of it all.
So I understand what you are doing Arsene. All I can do is give you advice from what I see on the outside looking in, and based upon my own experience. I will add though that sometimes others do see your own situation better because they are not in the fishbowl. That's why it is easier to give other people advice than it is to follow the same advice yourself. (not speaking about you specifically... but of everyone).
Not going to edit this because I am tired... so I apologize in advance if it doesn't entirely make sense.
I don't mean to but in or be late here but something struck me about the not telling people also. For me, I felt shamed. I KNOW I did nothing wrong. However, by telling people that we were separated it almost felt like validating the horrible thought that I am not good enough or OW is better than me in some way. You know the old saying not woman enough to keep her man? Yeah. I bought into that. Not that it was smart. I still sort of buy into it in some ways.
I am ashamed. It makes me feel like I am broken when I have to say we are separated.
However, I have learned the hard way that things do NOT improve until all of the ugly truth is in the light.
Meaning..... so what? It's wasn't your choice but don't for one minute let LBS minimize your pain and your feelings by then lying and denying to everyone on the outside so that they can save face. It is fear of the consequences that keeps them from telling in the first place. It is fear of how peoples opinions might change, it is also fear that those feelings and opinions might be right! It nags on their conscience and lord knows the LBS hates it when the conscience rears it's ugly head. That might mean they are actually WRONG. Hmmmm.
I'm not sure if all that makes sense. I sort of got off on a rant. Could your not wanting to tell people be more reflective of being afraid of how you assume people might change their opinion of you more than her?
I don't mean to but in or be late here but something struck me about the not telling people also. For me, I felt shamed. I KNOW I did nothing wrong. However, by telling people that we were separated it almost felt like validating the horrible thought that I am not good enough or OW is better than me in some way. You know the old saying not woman enough to keep her man? Yeah. I bought into that. Not that it was smart. I still sort of buy into it in some ways.
I am ashamed. It makes me feel like I am broken when I have to say we are separated.
However, I have learned the hard way that things do NOT improve until all of the ugly truth is in the light.
Meaning..... so what? It's wasn't your choice but don't for one minute let LBS minimize your pain and your feelings by then lying and denying to everyone on the outside so that they can save face. It is fear of the consequences that keeps them from telling in the first place. It is fear of how peoples opinions might change, it is also fear that those feelings and opinions might be right! It nags on their conscience and lord knows the LBS hates it when the conscience rears it's ugly head. That might mean they are actually WRONG. Hmmmm.
I'm not sure if all that makes sense. I sort of got off on a rant. Could your not wanting to tell people be more reflective of being afraid of how you assume people might change their opinion of you more than her?
That is dead on. Good post!
I meant the WAS not the LBS. Sigh. I'm getting sleepy.
Yes, she might still be with OM (she's spending so much time around these days that I actually wonder if he's still in the picture) .
Your wife spending more time with you is a good thing. After all, that's part of the end goal here, right? To have your wife WITH YOU.
I thought Michele was very clear in DR. If the goal is to preserve your marriage, you may have to wait out an affair.
As men, we view being treated with honor and respect by our wives to be of utmost importance, so to me it is quite understandable that some are questioning your approach, and are advising you to cut her off. I don't know if that would draw her closer to you, and frankly neither does anyone else.
FY you seem to be mistaking the DR approach with the do not upset the WS at all costs approach. Michele does not promote being a doormat. Being polite and honourable and respectful is not being a doormat.
The end goal is not having your wife with you.
If that is your goal then its just round two and you will be back here again down the road. This is the mistake that Arnse is making with his version of the nice-guy bo-peep approach. No boundaries and no structure. Pick what you want to hear. Tune out the rest.
The end goal is to recommitte to a new relationship built around communication, truth, and boundaries and knowing you are going to be fine if you chose a different path.
I don't mean to but in or be late here but something struck me about the not telling people also. For me, I felt shamed. I KNOW I did nothing wrong. However, by telling people that we were separated it almost felt like validating the horrible thought that I am not good enough or OW is better than me in some way. You know the old saying not woman enough to keep her man? Yeah. I bought into that. Not that it was smart. I still sort of buy into it in some ways.
I am ashamed. It makes me feel like I am broken when I have to say we are separated.
However, I have learned the hard way that things do NOT improve until all of the ugly truth is in the light.
Meaning..... so what? It's wasn't your choice but don't for one minute let LBS minimize your pain and your feelings by then lying and denying to everyone on the outside so that they can save face. It is fear of the consequences that keeps them from telling in the first place. It is fear of how peoples opinions might change, it is also fear that those feelings and opinions might be right! It nags on their conscience and lord knows the LBS hates it when the conscience rears it's ugly head. That might mean they are actually WRONG. Hmmmm.
I'm not sure if all that makes sense. I sort of got off on a rant. Could your not wanting to tell people be more reflective of being afraid of how you assume people might change their opinion of you more than her?
That is dead on. Good post!
I echo that! Excellent
The end goal is to recommitte to a new relationship built around communication, truth, and boundaries and knowing you are going to be fine if you chose a different path.
well said. Thanks chatterbug
I think i have said this on a few threads now but i think we need to just have faith that if it's meant to be it will be. Analysing the effects of everything you say or do, is not good for anyone. You can't predict the outcome. It just holds you back.
I will say this though Arsene... the difference between my sitch at that time and your sitch now, is that I had laid down that boundary. I may have let her off of the hook too easily, but she knew that boundary.
Your W has no boundaries.
A second difference is that I had much more too make up for. From what I know about your sitch, I was a much bigger a$$hole in my prior R/M with my W than you ever were with your wife. I let that affect many of my choices back then. I hadn't forgiven myself at that point.
A third difference is that when my W did choose to have OM in her life, knowing that I would not be, I let her be. This part I am talking about occurred after the Disney trip. I no longer allowed her to play both sides of the fence. She knew that if she was in contact with OM, that I would not be there for her to lean on or to spend time with.
And it was THOSE times that my W truly had the chance to see that OM was NOT what she wanted. And that what she DID want was me and our M. Yes, it took her time to get passed some other aspects, ie, forgiving me for past hurt, and getting over fear that things would go back to being bad if she did make that leap back towards our M. But it gave her the time to travel her own path... to investigate other life choices that she COULD make if she ended up deciding that they were better for her.
Ultimately, the answer to that was that those other choices were not better for her.
I don't think that she would have gotten there had I lingered around during those times.
Lastly, I was not physically capable of letting myself be in her life knowing that she was having contact with OM. That just isn't me though.
---
It's is funny that you chose to talk about that part of my sitch because I think that it really was one of the top two or three points of the entire ordeal. It was a time that I could have made the choice to do something completely different than I did.
Right or wrong though, I did it my way. And I did travel my own path doing my best to use DB and the advice here to guide me.
I lived pretty much the entire gambit of it all.
So I understand what you are doing Arsene. All I can do is give you advice from what I see on the outside looking in, and based upon my own experience. I will add though that sometimes others do see your own situation better because they are not in the fishbowl. That's why it is easier to give other people advice than it is to follow the same advice yourself. (not speaking about you specifically... but of everyone).
Not going to edit this because I am tired... so I apologize in advance if it doesn't entirely make sense.
Thanks Denver,
Thanks for taking the time to reply in as much depth as you did, and thanks for seeing where I am as clearly as you do.
As you said, my W hasn't got any boundaries yet and that is because I'm not yet ready/in a position to enforce them if she were to cross them.
Another reason for this lack of boundaries is another difference in our sitches. After a few months, your W did come around from being completely DONE to reconsidering her position. Yes, she was still confused about OM but she at least considered the possibility of life with you once again. My W has never been there and she is still DONE. If I were to set a boundary, I am pretty sure she would walk. If she were to reconsider her position, I would insist on NC with OM, and make that a deal breaker.
Presently, I am considering a version of what you once referred to as plan A/plan B and making myself more desirable in her eye. I have seen some progress as you know but I still don't feel ready to act on anything. Right now, she seems to be going through a thinking phase and I guess I want to see this through and continue with what I'm doing, for now. As FY reminds us, Michele clearly states that you usually have to wait out the affair an I'm seeing how far I can go with this without putting pressure on her.
As you may remember, some of my issues were control and manipulation. W even thinks that my standing for the marriage smells of manipulation so any kind of pressure is sure to be seen as more of the same.
To conclude, as I mentioned earlier, the one thing I need to do now is REALLY GET A LIFE. Start focusing more on me and what I want to do for my future. This will have the effect of making me happier on my own and perhaps boosting my confidence, as well as preparing me for the worst case scenario, if it was to happen. It will also help me detach and create a bit of distance between me and W.
MKB, what you said about a sense of shame has been felt here as well and although not the main reason for not divulging my sitch, it has had an influence on my decision. My main reason still is that I don't really know that many people well enough to talk about this sort of thing around here.
Thank you all once again for your time and support.
Cheers!
FY you seem to be mistaking the DR approach with the do not upset the WS at all costs approach. Michele does not promote being a doormat. Being polite and honourable and respectful is not being a doormat.
The end goal is not having your wife with you.
If that is your goal then its just round two and you will be back here again down the road. This is the mistake that Arnse is making with his version of the nice-guy bo-peep approach. No boundaries and no structure. Pick what you want to hear. Tune out the rest.
The end goal is to recommitte to a new relationship built around communication, truth, and boundaries and knowing you are going to be fine if you chose a different path.
With all due respect CB, I don't think I can separate the twofold purpose of being here as well as you do. I am doing what I'm doing to become a better person, yes. But I would never have come here if it wasn't first to save my marriage. I wasn't looking for a self-help book when I found DR. I was looking for a way to save my family.
Although I accept the importance of going through our changes for ourselves, the added motivation is that it might save our R. When I go through hell, the picture in my mind that pushes me to carry on is not of a very good version of Arsene who is happy on his own. It's the picture of a very good version of a happy Arsene standing by his very happy family.
Now, right or wrong, mistake or not, as long as "I" am the one who will live with the consequences of my actions, I will listen to the advice here and in DR and judge, based on my knowledge of my sitch and the help given, what course "I" will take. I am sorry CB that you seem to be taking offense because I am not doing exactly what you say but no need to make it personal mate. I said before that I want to see all the different perspectives so as to base my actions on the most complete resource possible. You and I obviously have different styles and that is ok, or at least it should be, and there might come a time when I choose a tougher approach but that time is not now.
You are right about the end goal mate, and for the time being I would like this end goal to still be with my W so I'll do what it takes to keep this an option.
Thanks CB, for you time.
You follow the motto a happy wife is a happy life.
That is your mistake. You repeat it over and over. You say you have a plan and that you will get there in time. But your actions and words do not match up. When it is pointed out to you the defence and reflections start up. The difference between my saying it to you and a few of the other guys here is that I am saying it minus the sugar coat. You have a whole site here to read. History that goes back almost 13 years. You have the choice to read and see what works and what does not. You have the choice to read where people came back and said the mistakes they made that put them into the same place. You have people here who have saved their marriages and people here who are in piecing and working on their marriages. You have people here who saved themselves.
There is three consistent themes through the successful ones.
Boundaries. Self Respect. Personal Growth.
1 out of 3 does not cut it.
Nor does hope.
I could go through and post your theme over and over throughout the history of this site. But that is for you to discover. There is no offense nor do i take it personal. I freely offer my help on this site. If I did not want to I would leave.
Your other big problem is that you do not think this.
Tough approach = Boundaries. Self Respect. Personal Growth.
You have it in your mind that tough approach means being an ass and shaming and being selfish.
Why? Because it takes away from the equation of a Happy wife is a happy life.
What you going to do in December when your self time limit hits its mark?
When I read your words I think.
All thrust and no vector.
If you want me off your threads say so. I will stop writing. But if you want those nagging thoughts in the back of head stirred every once in awhile then I will continue to write this theme to you over and over.
FY you seem to be mistaking the DR approach with the do not upset the WS at all costs approach. Michele does not promote being a doormat. Being polite and honourable and respectful is not being a doormat.
is in the eye of the beholder. Please reread Michele's section in DR on dealing with a spouse in MLC and take back your "do not upset the (MLC) spouse at all costs" comment. She most certainly outlines a path that most would consider "doormat", (I know I did when I read it) because her goal IS to save marriages
at all costs. Sparing EGO is back seat for her.
Not saying I necessarily agree with this, or that I could walk Arsene's path, (pretty sure I couldn't) but her words are what they are.
The end goal is not having your wife with you.
If that is your goal then its just round two and you will be back here again down the road. This is the mistake that Arnse is making with his version of the nice-guy bo-peep approach. No boundaries and no structure. Pick what you want to hear. Tune out the rest.
The end goal is to recommitte to a new relationship built around communication, truth, and boundaries and knowing you are going to be fine if you chose a different path.
Semantics. Yes, the end goal is "to recommit to a new relationship", on this I'm sure we all agree. Having your wife with you doesn't not include that. Well, not forever anyway.
You do not understand what I wrote FY.
Interesting thread you posted. You should go read at the outcome of the posters on that thread. As I know most of those posters on this forum and in the real world.
The OP wrote this as well
I post here, because... I think too many people go into piercing too early, their spouse came back too early or they are too eager. If the LBS is too eager to please the WAS...to forgive when forgiveness isn't sought out... I dunno. My place is here.
Seems to be a theme here.
Interesting thread you posted. You should go read at the outcome of the posters on that thread. As I know most of those posters on this forum and in the real world.
Yes you do, and there is certainly much value in that. But how many relationships do you actually know the outcomes of? Dozens? Hundreds? Are they primarily from this board? What about the hundreds of thousands of other ones? I doubt there are any valid statistics regarding overall outcomes per technique here. Not that it would even matter if there was, since every situation is different, and what works in one relationship may be a game ender in another.
Like with the “After the Last Resort Technique” advised by many in this thread. Michele in DR:
[quote=MWD]However, you shouldn’t do it (After the last resort technique) unless you are prepared to end your marriage because that’s just what it might do. However, it might serve as a wake-up call to your spouse that you love him/her enough that you are prepared to let go, then back off completely. Don’t spend time together. Don’t speak on the phone unless it’s about you children. Have as little face-to-face contact as possible. Don’t do nice things anymore. Don’t call. Don’t e-mail. Don’t initiate contact of any sort. Don’t allow your spouse to feel that there is a relationship between you any longer. Continue this emotional cutoff until your spouse gets the point that there will be no relationship of any sort until the OP is completely out of the picture.
This last, last-resort technique is one that will force you to take a strong stand. It’s not for the faint of heart. Once you make the statement that you’re done, you have to be willing to follow through. If you waffle, you will lose all of your credibility.
So don’t use this method unless you’re prepared to see it through all the way to the end.[/quote]
Is the Last –Last Resort Technique truly the best chance for Arsene to save his marriage and propel him to the new marriage he wants with his wife? Is he ready to make this move, or for the possible consequences of it?
You mention that the LBS being too eager to please the WAS seems to be a theme here. So does the rush/push to the “After the Last Resort Technique”, I’d say.
Like our buddy Cadet likes to say, this is all a crap shoot, there are no guarantees.
I guess deep inside, I am embarrassed because it turns out she isn't the perfect person I thought she was.
THAT is it right there ^^^. Exactly what you need to come to terms with. It is what is at the heart of every action you take Arsene.
But you are protecting her. You are protecting her from the people that you know, and you are protecting her from your D.
I agree with Chatter that you need to stop protecting her.
That doesn't mean publicly humiliating her. It means just being upfront about the situation. Let her deal with the repercussions of that.
While I agree that he should stop being in denial AND that it's not great for his d, (b/c what d8 NEEDS to know is that Arsene and SHE will be fine no matter what. It seems as if all hope for happiness is pinned on what wife does. NOT GOOD for d, or Arsene...)
But I also think part of the reason he's not telling others is HIS PRIDE IS WOUNDED...he's embarrassed that she rejected him....Who likes saying "My wife left me b/c I was very hard to live with, she told me to change but I didn't. And now she's got OM". I mean, isn't that also a possibility?For me, I was embarrassed about my W's actions too. I felt fooled as well.
How I handled it. I was open with everyone, including SS and my D, about the status of things. Just the bare bones. I did not offer details. I did not seek to embarrass my W or put her on the defensive. I was just honest. And if anyone ever criticized her to my face, I did defend her. I did take the heat for why we were separated. But after a while, I got sick of defending her. Instead, I learned to just politely excused myself from the conversation.
The bottom line is this. It is not your job to protect your w from ANYONE about the choices that she makes. It is also not your job to make anyone judge her in any particular way. IMO, you should be open and honest about the facts, but let people come to their own conclusions. What that means for you W is, quite frankly, her problem to deal with.
If you live your life well, focus on you and your D, and continue to make the right choices, it won't matter what other people know... even if you reconcile.
I have had to deal with the natural negative backlash against my W since our reconciliation. All I say is this, 'if I can forgive her, then, as my [insert relationship, friend, mom etc], you will forgive her as well.'
You deal with that when, if, the time comes. And it can be done if you are just upfront with people about what is going on and your feelings about it (even if your feelings are 'I don't want to talk about it').
^^^ this makes sense to me.
But in my sitch, I found that the more folks who knew details that reflected poorly on my h, the harder it was for ME to hear their input.
And I fear that if my h knew what others had said, he would not have the same r's with them that he does now.
So YES I protected him b/c it would have made it harder on ME and HIM and our kids to reconcile.
He was welcomed back into the family in part b/c I did protect him---NOT BECAUSE I wanted to protect HIM, per se, but to help the "cause". Hope that makes sense.
Finally, I told my youngest that "we're going to be fine no matter what" and that HER happiness was my priority b/c they're the most important people in my life. I'd describe how her life was going to be stable and good, regardless... In OUR sitch, that meant no sudden moving away or leaving her friends or school behind.
In YOUR sitch, Arsene, it sounds as if a move doesn't bother your d. She said she wanted to move or change schools??? So, whatever it takes so she knows there's going to be a roof over her head & and food on the table, and you, then she'll feel reassured.
***BUT I fear that if your w gets financially stable, SHE'LL take your d. Right now you both are living paycheck to paycheck, right? How stressful.
Since she gets custody there, IF she wants it, we have to ask why she has not.
Isn't the single biggest reason she does not have custody,a financial one?
So, what's to stop her from finding financial support from OM (or a new OM) and then taking d back?
I don't see her as preventing you from seeing d, but once SHE is established, why would she still have d with you?
And then what? Hoping for the best but preparing for the worst, is key here.
Do you believe it's possible for you to find SOMEONE, way down the road, who could be a decent step mother to your d? Can you see any value to your d seeing a healthy monogamous marriage, with the new improved you as the h?
I know your goal is still reconciling. I get that and I support it. But you do need to plan on being happy, regardless.
What would life look like if you and your w are divorced, but it's a life in which you are happy?
Envision that for a minute and get some details...
And if you won't even let yourself THINK of that, it's a lot harder to not obsess about your w b/c you are pinning ALL your hopes of happiness in the future on her. BUT you are the person in charge of and responsible for, your happiness.
25 - the last part of your post - it hit home with me...
I don't mean to hijack here. I think like I have been in a similar space as Arsene. I do feel stuck and reading your post I realize that I do not have any visions of what my future looks like - I need to work on that.
Thanks!
CB, I've got enough things going on in my life right now and I don't really want to spend too much more time on this difference of opinion.
I don't expect things to be sugar-coated but I sure don't need to have them sh!t-coated either mate.
You have to chill and realise that one may listen to and value your opinion and still not follow your advice. There are more than one ways to succeed and I am sorry if I am following the one recommended by MWD and not yours but hey, it's her book I bought and it's her advice that I will follow, primarily, until it stops working for my sitch.
You may not think I have a plan but that is because what I call a plan doesn't follow your opinion. Am I consistent? Hell no. I'm going through hell on a daily basis so it's tough to be consistent. I have setbacks and doubts. Sometimes I come on here with a new idea, a new attitude, which I voice and swear to uphold until it, or I crash. Then I get myself back up and move on.
I am growing and learning at my own pace and I totally appreciate that you would like to save me loads of hardship and aggravations but the same way we can't tell a WAS what to do because they need to figure it our for themselves, i guess you can't tell a LBS what to do either. We all have to figure it our for ourselves. You may not have noticed it, but I am also consistent in many ways, mainly in following the LRT, which you seem to be confusing with the After LRT.
FY makes many good points in his post.
Yes you do, and there is certainly much value in that. But how many relationships do you actually know the outcomes of? Dozens? Hundreds? Are they primarily from this board? What about the hundreds of thousands of other ones? I doubt there are any valid statistics regarding overall outcomes per technique here. Not that it would even matter if there was, since every situation is different, and what works in one relationship may be a game ender in another.
Like with the “After the Last Resort Technique” advised by many in this thread. Michele in DR:
However, you shouldn’t do it (After the last resort technique) unless you are prepared to end your marriage because that’s just what it might do. However, it might serve as a wake-up call to your spouse that you love him/her enough that you are prepared to let go, then back off completely. Don’t spend time together. Don’t speak on the phone unless it’s about you children. Have as little face-to-face contact as possible. Don’t do nice things anymore. Don’t call. Don’t e-mail. Don’t initiate contact of any sort. Don’t allow your spouse to feel that there is a relationship between you any longer. Continue this emotional cutoff until your spouse gets the point that there will be no relationship of any sort until the OP is completely out of the picture.
This last, last-resort technique is one that will force you to take a strong stand. It’s not for the faint of heart. Once you make the statement that you’re done, you have to be willing to follow through. If you waffle, you will lose all of your credibility. So don’t use this method unless you’re prepared to see it through all the way to the end.
Is the Last –Last Resort Technique truly the best chance for Arsene to save his marriage and propel him to the new marriage he wants with his wife? Is he ready to make this move, or for the possible consequences of it?
You mention that the LBS being too eager to please the WAS seems to be a theme here. So does the rush/push to the “After the Last Resort Technique”, I’d say.
Like our buddy Cadet likes to say, this is all a crap shoot, there are no guarantees.
CB, I'm not asking you to stop posting. I said (so many times it seems) that I value every perspective as they allow me to be better equipped to make the best decision for my sitch. In fact, I acknowledged that I might have to go your way at some point in my sitch on many occasions.
I'm also not asking you to sugar-coat what you say. What I am asking is to not be so demeaning and judgmental towards other opinions/people. I've got enough negativity to deal with down my end and don't really need to be made to feel like an idiot when I come on here. Try using the better communication skills you must have learned while you were DBing to get your point across.
Thanks for your time.
Arsene, it always amazes me how everyone wants to give her/his opinion on your sitch. It's a good thing, bc as you said, it gives you perspective. I've always said you are doing the right thing by being patient, and I agree that you must focus on GALing now, which you are starting to do.
Hey Arsene, you get where you're going when you get there.
There is also value in the journey and this is your journey.
No one else knows the lessons you need to learn.
Arsene,
I just wanted to stop by and show you my support. You are getting a lot of valuable advice from different perspectives and it looks like you are absorbing it all and thinking about what you think is best in your situation at this time. I also see you keeping an open mind and a willingness to change when you feel it's needed - keep that perspective going.
I completely agree with labug - you have to go through this on your own, based on what you think is best for you. As long as your motivations and intent are good and you keep yourself in check, you will be ok. Things will fall into place as they need to.
Stay strong!
Hey 25,
Thanks for dropping by.
While I agree that he should stop being in denial AND that it's not great for his d, (b/c what d8 NEEDS to know is that Arsene and SHE will be fine no matter what. It seems as if all hope for happiness is pinned on what wife does. NOT GOOD for d, or Arsene...)
But I also think part of the reason he's not telling others is HIS PRIDE IS WOUNDED...he's embarrassed that she rejected him....Who likes saying "My wife left me b/c I was very hard to live with, she told me to change but I didn't. And now she's got OM". I mean, isn't that also a possibility?
I am working on the denial aspect 25. I've started being more open about it and even started thinking about life without W. My talks with D8 (when she asks) now include that her mom will always be there and I will always be there no matter what. She even told me she didn't want a step-mom because all the ones she knows of(from fairy tales) are mean
.
As far as the wounded pride is concerned, I'm sure there is a bit of that but again, the people who are close to me know about my sitch. Mere acquaintances and my students don't really need to know now, do they?
But in my sitch, I found that the more folks who knew details that reflected poorly on my h, the harder it was for ME to hear their input.
And I fear that if my h knew what others had said, he would not have the same r's with them that he does now.
So YES I protected him b/c it would have made it harder on ME and HIM and our kids to reconcile.
This here rings true as well. IMO, keeping the path home well lit and smooth also means making sure there is not too much mud on it.
Finally, I told my youngest that "we're going to be fine no matter what" and that HER happiness was my priority b/c they're the most important people in my life. I'd describe how her life was going to be stable and good, regardless... In OUR sitch, that meant no sudden moving away or leaving her friends or school behind.
In YOUR sitch, Arsene, it sounds as if a move doesn't bother your d. She said she wanted to move or change schools??? So, whatever it takes so she knows there's going to be a roof over her head & and food on the table, and you, then she'll feel reassured.
When D8 talks about moving back to the country where we were last year, I always tell her that it is a possibility but that it probably wouldn't include her mom. She seems to understand this. She also brings up moving to the touristic part of the country, knowing that this would probably include her mom.
***BUT I fear that if your w gets financially stable, SHE'LL take your d. Right now you both are living paycheck to paycheck, right? How stressful.
Since she gets custody there, IF she wants it, we have to ask why she has not.
Isn't the single biggest reason she does not have custody,a financial one?
So, what's to stop her from finding financial support from OM (or a new OM) and then taking d back?
I don't see her as preventing you from seeing d, but once SHE is established, why would she still have d with you?
This is always a possibility but I really think that right now, the reason she doesn't want to have D8 with her is that she is happy to not have any responsibilities. She is living her teenage/young adult life all over again, staying out til 3 am at some coffee stand chatting with her band mates. D8 just wouldn't fit in this and she knows it.
She says her friends don't understand either. They tell her that she should be the one with D8 and the house while me, as a foreigner, can easily fall back on my feet.
I think that W knows, for now, that I can offer D8 more stability and a better chance at a good future. As a performer in this country, she is not likely to ever be in a financially sound position. She does have the house but she's even said that she no longer wanted to end the rental as she said she didn't want the commitment right now.
As far as OM taking care of things, I would doubt that because he has 2 sons and a wife who he can't even take care of. I think that he's in that relationship with my W simply because it's easy and there are no responsibilities, same reasons as my W.
I may be wrong but I doubt that W would go to OM2 should this affair end, at least not right away.
Do you believe it's possible for you to find SOMEONE, way down the road, who could be a decent step mother to your d? Can you see any value to your d seeing a healthy monogamous marriage, with the new improved you as the h?
I know your goal is still reconciling. I get that and I support it. But you do need to plan on being happy, regardless.
What would life look like if you and your w are divorced, but it's a life in which you are happy?
Envision that for a minute and get some details...
I have thought about it. This is my second marriage. My first W also left, for similar reasons actually but I didn't know DB then and blamed her until very recently. Fortunately, there weren't any children in my 1st marriage and we each went our different ways, no harm done.
I was single for a few years with the occasional relationship and one day I got over my 1st W and was happy by myself. A few months later, I met my W and the rest is history (literally).
I know that there is life after divorce and I know I'm handsome, interesting, fit, funny and smart enough for my age to attract a woman probably much younger than myself if I wanted to. My hope for happiness isn't pinned on my wife though (well, it probably still is a bit) but as you say, it's pinned (or should be) on me and that is why I'm trying to switch the focus back to me at this point.
Thanks so much for your comments 25,
SS, KG, Tori, Labug,
Thanks for dropping by. It helps to get your support. As you said, I do get a lot of great input from all parts of the spectrum and it is at times difficult to stay focused on what I have to do. Right now, I'm embracing a softer approach and IMO, this is/has been working. As long as W isn't pulling away or the situation isn't getting worse, I'm still ok to give W time and space til December. Then, I'll have to re-assess what I'm doing.
I hope to be able to find myself between now and then and perhaps get in a place where I'm not so attached to the outcome. I can feel some of it happening now but it's too soon to know and besides, I think that before reaching that point, most people sit on the fence for a bit, wavering. I don't expect to be any different.
Cheers all!
I know that there is life after divorce and I know I'm handsome, interesting, fit, funny and smart enough for my age to attract a woman probably much younger than myself if I wanted to. My hope for happiness isn't pinned on my wife though (well, it probably still is a bit) but as you say, it's pinned (or should be) on me and that is why I'm trying to switch the focus back to me at this point.
To me, what you posted above is key. As long as you believe this you are good to go, no matter what.
My hope for happiness isn't pinned on my wife though (well, it probably still is a bit)
It should be. You're still married!
CB, I'm not asking you to stop posting. I said (so many times it seems) that I value every perspective as they allow me to be better equipped to make the best decision for my sitch. In fact, I acknowledged that I might have to go your way at some point in my sitch on many occasions.
Right. CB has been around the block and knows a thing or two. The bottom line is the timing of when to pull the trigger for what he's advising is up to YOU.
I know that there is life after divorce and I know I'm handsome, interesting, fit, funny and smart enough for my age to attract a woman probably much younger than myself if I wanted to. My hope for happiness isn't pinned on my wife though (well, it probably still is a bit) but as you say, it's pinned (or should be) on me and that is why I'm trying to switch the focus back to me at this point.
To me, what you posted above is key. As long as you believe this you are good to go, no matter what.
I believe it FY. I just doesn't take away from the pain of losing the woman I love, and seeing the family I love fall apart.
A bit of journaling.
Yesterday I got a basketball and hoop which I installed today for D8. I'm not really sporty but I figured I'd like D8 to at least be exposed to a sport. She and her have been having fun playing one-on-one and shooting hoops. D8 really took to it so I think it was a good purchase.
I still feel strangely detached from W. She was around a few hours ago to pick "us" up to go the the art gallery where she had invited us. I still hadn't made up my mind as to whether or not I'd go but in my present state and keeping in mind that I have to put some distance between me and W, I thought this might be a good time to start.
When she got here (on foot which means OM dropped her off outside the complex), D8 and I were playing basketball. I noticed a coldness in her and I somehow mirrored it. I'm not sure anymore. Maybe she noticed a coldness in me which she mirrored. D8 and I kept playing. At first, D8 barely acknowledged W, but then tried to include her in our game. W refused saying that she hated Basketball and wasn't into sports. She then walked in the house.
D8 and I finished our game then I urged her to go and get ready to go. W seemed surprised to hear I wasn't going and remained cold. I simply told her I had "stuff to do today". D8 asked if she could stay at Ws tonight and W refused which sent D8 in a tantrum. This surprised me as she'd been so positive and strong and such a good, calm girl all week. I quietly sat by her and tried to talk her out of it a bit and succeeded in calming her down. W was about to change her mind and accept but I asked her not to as it would just show D8 that she can do this all the time to get what she wants. W has had problems with this in the past.
The situation seemed calmed and I left them to get ready. I came back around and W and D8 were talking. D8 told me, right there and then, that she'd told her mom I was a good boy now but that her mom didn't believe her. W seemed embarrassed. I told D8 that it was ok if mom didn't believe her. That mom was entitled to her opinion. Then, I jokingly said that maybe daddy was always a good boy. Maybe it was mommy who was a bad girl. W answered jokingly that indeed, she was a witch.
I tried to be upbeat as I saw them out and I wished them a good time together. As it turned out, W changed the program and decided to go to a friend's instead of the gallery.
I'm now sitting here wondering if this was the right thing to do. I'm wondering if I shouldn't just have gone and spent a nice day with my family. This feels wrong right now. But then again, W is showing no remorse and no signs of reconsidering us. There is no family anymore. Does she really not believe that I have changed? Or is she just lying to herself again to justify what she wants to do, which is stay with OM?
I should be proud of myself for resisting the lure of my siren but instead I am full of doubts. Perhaps a certain death by her hand feels more satisfying to me now than life without her.
I'll be out of the house when they come back and probably won't see her tonight but tomorrow she is coming back with the intention to stay the night (as a compromise for not letting D8 stay at hers tonight). I'll need to tie myself to the mast once again.
Is there any part of this DBing which isn't painful? (this is rhetorical and doesn't require an answer
)
I have thought about it. This is my second marriage. My first W also left, for similar reasons actually but I didn't know DB then and blamed her until very recently. Fortunately, there weren't any children in my 1st marriage and we each went our different ways, no harm done.
I was single for a few years with the occasional relationship and one day I got over my 1st W and was happy by myself. A few months later, I met my W and the rest is history (literally).
I found these two nuggets really interesting.
IMHO, Arsene, you would be better off working more on your co-dependence issues than you would be necessarily on MARITAL issues. I think if you could get to the root of "why doesn't Arsene think he'll be okay if he's alone?" you might find your clues to your marital problems.
Yes, this is a marriage-recovery site, but I have found that those who have sucessfully DB'd
almost always do so because they first sucessfully recovered THEMSELVES. I think that's what Cutter is trying to get you to see, and many of you are shooting the messenger.
Starsky
CB, I'm not asking you to stop posting. I said (so many times it seems) that I value every perspective as they allow me to be better equipped to make the best decision for my sitch. In fact, I acknowledged that I might have to go your way at some point in my sitch on many occasions.
Right. CB has been around the block and knows a thing or two. The bottom line is the timing of when to pull the trigger for what he's advising is up to YOU.
Correct. However, I think that Cutter (and some of the rest of us) -- in our been-around-the-block-and-know-a-thing-or-two'ness -- are saying that until you DO, you'll be largely STUCK.
There's no shame in admitting that you're not ready. However, don't make any pretenses at thinking you're going to get anywhere until you CAN bring yourself to be ready.
Starsky
P.S. Then again, we could be wrong, too -- that's for Arsene to decide, as it should be. I liked Cutter's advice to study the forum and see who's-done-what, and what's-worked-for-whom in saving themselves and saving their marriages.
I'm now sitting here wondering if this was the right thing to do. I'm wondering if I shouldn't just have gone and spent a nice day with my family. This feels wrong right now.
I think you did the right thing, Arsene. Remember, while much is written around here about "every situation is different" and "we all have to follow our gut," let's face it -- our GUT is often what got us into our marital messes and led us to this forum to begin with.
Much, MUCH of correct DBing is counter-intuitive, and won't feel right.Starsky
I think you did the right thing, Arsene. Remember, while much is written around here about "every situation is different" and "we all have to follow our gut," let's face it -- our GUT is often what got us into our marital messes and led us to this forum to begin with.
Much, MUCH of correct DBing is counter-intuitive, and won't feel right.
Starsky
So true... Whats even crazier is when they call you out when your doing the right DB things because it makes them think about what they are doing and feel the guilt and pain they are causing..
I found these two nuggets really interesting.
IMHO, Arsene, you would be better off working more on your co-dependence issues than you would be necessarily on MARITAL issues. I think if you could get to the root of "why doesn't Arsene think he'll be okay if he's alone?" you might find your clues to your marital problems.
Yes, this is a marriage-recovery site, but I have found that those who have sucessfully DB'd almost always do so because they first sucessfully recovered THEMSELVES. I think that's what Cutter is trying to get you to see, and many of you are shooting the messenger.
Starsky
Actually Starsky, I did spend quite a bit of time on my own in those years. 1st W left in '99, we were separated for two years til I asked for divorce in 2001 and then I met my W in 2002. I didn't jump in a relationship until I felt I was ready to do so. I'll look into co-dependence but I'm not sure it applies here mate.
Correct. However, I think that Cutter (and some of the rest of us) -- in our been-around-the-block-and-know-a-thing-or-two'ness -- are saying that until you DO, you'll be largely STUCK.
There's no shame in admitting that you're not ready. However, don't make any pretenses at thinking you're going to get anywhere until you CAN bring yourself to be ready.
Starsky
I hear you mate but what you call pretense, I call PMA. I know I'm not ready and in any position to do what CB is advocating and perhaps I'm deluding myself in believing that I am making progress, however, without this sweet delusion (if that is all it is) I would have given up a long time ago.
I have read many sitches in the forum and I've read Dobson's Love Must Be Tough. For the time being, I have made the decision to follow a softer approach, right or wrong, as I believe it is what is best for now for my situation. I don't think I'm doing anything which would hurt my sitch and quite frankly, I don't think I'm in any more(or any less) pain than people who choose the harder approach.
I think you did the right thing, Arsene. Remember, while much is written around here about "every situation is different" and "we all have to follow our gut," let's face it -- our GUT is often what got us into our marital messes and led us to this forum to begin with.
Much, MUCH of correct DBing is counter-intuitive, and won't feel right.
Starsky
Thanks mate. I think so too, but it feels like amputating your own leg.
Thanks for your time Starsky. I appreciate your opinion on this.
Cheers!
Hey JAG,
You are right about that. Actually, W texted me twice tonight to invite me out for dinner (even said she'd buy). As I was really busy, it felt good telling her that I was busy with something and that I couldn't join them.
All the same, I just got home and the car is still here which leads to believe she went home with OM. I know it happens and I expect it to happen but I'm always gutted when it does.
Hi Arsene,
I think you dod the right thing too. And I also understand the feeling of it feeling wrong as well. You are not alone in that :-)
What can I say except what Starsky said...this is counter-intuitive. Maybe when we feel that, we should actually give ourselves a pat on the back and think 'ok...I am DBing and I choose to DB, and this is what it is about'.
Trust the process as Cadet says.
(I realise I am only re-quoting the vets! But I believe it...hopefully i can DO it).
As for this:
All the same, I just got home and the car is still here which leads to believe she went home with OM. I know it happens and I expect it to happen but I'm always gutted when it does.
I know this feeling....whenever H leaves for the night after the kids sleep, goes to OW....the knife rips another cut in my gut. But we keep moving forward. We keep doing what we are learning and what we believe is the best we can do, and always strive to do better.
I hope you are okay Arsene. :-)
(((( )))))
Hey JAG,
You are right about that. Actually, W texted me twice tonight to invite me out for dinner (even said she'd buy). As I was really busy, it felt good telling her that I was busy with something and that I couldn't join them.
nothing wrong with this^^. She will learn nothing if SHE gets to pretend all is well if and when she feels like coming home or getting her "family fix."
OTOH when your d said you'd been a good boy but your w does not believe it - instead of saying your w is the bad girl, '"Jokingly" , 
you could have asked why w didn't believe it...or "Jokingly" promised the changes are real. I think every thing said there had truth darts in it. BUT
I doubt your w thinks SHE is being evil, at least not consciously. So what did that conversation achieve?All the same, I just got home and the car is still here
which leads to believe she went home with OM.
2nd time you make this assumption but do NOT KNOW, so why bother going there? Does it help you at all? I know it happens and I expect it to happen but
I'm always gutted when it does.
Stop gutting yourself...
and Kudos to you for finding your own path. If you read Dobson then you know the approach and have chosen this MWD DB approach instead. You have the right to do that and besides this is a DB site anyhow.
Stick to whatever approach you take and give it enough time to assess. I don't think you've been at DBing for long ( I know you haven't) and sometimes folks just see HER timeline, not yours.
Keep on keeping on but I'd sure like to hear some of those details in your vision of what life would look like
if you were single and happy...or NOT single but not with your w.
What does you being single and happy look like?
Trust the process as Cadet says.
(I realise I am only re-quoting the vets! But I believe it...hopefully i can DO it).
I hope you are okay Arsene. :-)
Thanks Busting. It helps to be reminded once in a while. I'm much better this morning. W is coming to spend the night so I'm planning on going out again this evening. No plans yet but if nothing else, I'll just dress up and go to some cafe with Wifi and come and read some threads for a few hours.
It feels like I'm playing a game and I don't like it but I have to "act as if" and "fake it til I make it". I think W has it in her mind that I just sit here every night waiting for her (which isn't/wasn't totally wrong) and I have to make an effort to show her that I do have a life (even if it's still not totally true).
Last night I met with the leader of the blues band I'm thinking about managing and we had a really nice talk. He seems to like my ideas and to be excited at the prospect of working with me. We actually get on well and he even offered to come around my house to jam and teach me a few blues licks. He knows my W and we talked a bit about that. I told him that we weren't together anymore and that I was giving her time to see what she wanted out of life. One step towards working my way out of denial, I guess.
The owner of the cafe where I play is also excited about working with me so GAL-wise, it looks good. I still feel a bit empty though, but I suppose that's going to get better.
Yes, this is a marriage-recovery site, but I have found that those who have sucessfully DB'd almost always do so because they first sucessfully recovered THEMSELVES. I think that's what Cutter is trying to get you to see, and many of you are shooting the messenger.
Just to set the record straight Starsky. I have absolutely nothing against Cutter or what he has to say. I think I've made it clear all along that I do welcome every opinion as they help me to better assess my choices.
What I do have a problem with is the actual delivery. As I said earlier, I don't need sugar-coating but I don't feel like I should come on my thread and be made to feel like an idiot because I'm doing what I think I should do.
Again, all of us here have had intensive "advanced communication skills" training through DB and we should all know that being judgmental, critical, passive aggressive and insulting are not ways to communicate a message effectively.
I am saying all of this with all due respect for Cutter and his opinion and hope he will continue to contribute to my progress under these "boundaries".
Arsene, you sound really strong, so that's awesome.
I'm curious about the reasons for your 1st D. You said they were the same reasons your W wants to end your M. Did you figure this our by readind DB or by thinking about things?
I have read many sitches in the forum and I've read Dobson's Love Must Be Tough. For the time being, I have made the decision to follow a softer approach, right or wrong, as I believe it is what is best for now for my situation. I don't think I'm doing anything which would hurt my sitch and quite frankly, I don't think I'm in any more(or any less) pain than people who choose the harder approach.
You have made a plan, and your plan is to be honored.
Arsene: What is your short-term (2-3 wk) goal? What will your W or the 2 of you be doing? How will YOU know if your plan is working.
DB team:
It't not ours to tell Arsene what his goals are. That gets mixed up in these conversations. The DBer determines their goals. We help them. Choosing what we think ought to be their goals is not DBing.
Arsene, you sound really strong, so that's awesome.
I'm curious about the reasons for your 1st D. You said they were the same reasons your W wants to end your M. Did you figure this our by readind DB or by thinking about things?
I wrote to my 1st W a few months ago. First contact in 8 years. Told her I was in the middle of introspection and, among other things, asked her why she left. She said that she'd lost herself in me/us. She said she now thought she went around it the wrong way but she just didn't know how to reclaim herself and just ran away from it all.
She said she no longer blamed me for it. She blames herself for not being more open about her feelings. For being too agreeable. For not having the strength to stand up for herself in the face of what she now calls my passionate zest for life, but which IMO, is really just my overbearing arrogant assumption that I must be right. I then wrote back to tell her about my present sitch and that this was why I was getting some feedback about my life. I also told her not to be too hard on herself because it would appear she was right about me after all, since my 2nd W left for pretty much the same reasons, as far as I can tell.
About sounding strong? I guess I'm faking it real good.
Admitting weakness is strength.
Have you read When Things Fall Apart?
You have made a plan, and your plan is to be honored.
Arsene: What is your short-term (2-3 wk) goal? What will your W or the 2 of you be doing? How will YOU know if your plan is working.
Thanks DBmod,
Following the advice of many posters, I've reached the conclusion that I should remain friendly and open to talks with W but to try and not be so readily available and give her more space.
I plan to achieve this by working harder on GAL and making efforts to turn down (in a nice way) some (if not most) of Ws requests for time together.
I hope that by doing this, W might begin to realise what she is missing but the number one goal is for me to be able to detach and not be overly affected by every things she says or does.
I'll know that my plan is working by how affected I am by W's actions and words and how focused I am on myself. Signs that W is affected by my new behaviour would probably be that she either withdraws back to her anger or makes more efforts to get closer.
How does that sound to you?
Sounds like a plan Arsene, good luck brother.
Excellent, plan, Arsene. Well-described!
Hi 25,
Thanks for dropping by and commenting.
OTOH when your d said you'd been a good boy but your w does not believe it - instead of saying your w is the bad girl, '"Jokingly" , crazy
you could have asked why w didn't believe it...or "Jokingly" promised the changes are real. I think every thing said there had truth darts in it. BUT
I doubt your w thinks SHE is being evil, at least not consciously. So what did that conversation achieve?
You are right 25. I wish I'd handled this differently as well. It took me by surprise and all I could think of is trying to validate W's feelings so I told D8 that mommy was entitled to her opinion and that it was ok. I also didn't want to start a R talk but I felt I should say something else and that's when the "joke" came out. I guess these are still remnants of my passive aggressive behaviour.
2nd time you make this assumption but do NOT KNOW, so why bother going there? Does it help you at all?
I know. It doesn't help but these are the thoughts that go through my mind. I try to chase them but it's usually too late when I catch myself. That is one of the reasons I want to detach so much right now.
and Kudos to you for finding your own path. If you read Dobson then you know the approach and have chosen this MWD DB approach instead. You have the right to do that and besides this is a DB site anyhow.
Stick to whatever approach you take and give it enough time to assess. I don't think you've been at DBing for long ( I know you haven't) and sometimes folks just see HER timeline, not yours.
Keep on keeping on but I'd sure like to hear some of those details in your vision of what life would look like
if you were single and happy...or NOT single but not with your w.
Thanks for the words of encouragement 25. I intend on sticking with this plan until the end of December before I re-assess what needs to be done next (unless some thing happens before then of course).
I'm not sure I can describe what a happy life without W would be right now 25. I know it is possible and I know I will get there if I need to but I haven't thought much about it, busy as I was trying to get my life in order around here.
I guess I see myself being a single father, spending a lot of time with my girl. I would like to settle down somewhere around this country as I don't think I can go back to the west after 12 years living in developing countries. Besides, life around here can be quite good and household help is affordable so I don't need to rely on daycare/babysitters to take care of D8 and still have an adult life.
I can't imagine getting married again. I got burned twice and now I'll stay away from the flame, at least for a while. I can imagine seriously dating again in a few years, to give myself time to heal and D8 time to adjust to our new situation.
Financially, I'd hope to continue on the path I've taken recently with the cafe and band management. If either of these picks up I could do very well and still have plenty of time for D8. If not, I can probably get another 10 to 15 years off teaching and hopefully something will come along by then. D8's education is covered as MIL has got her in her inheritance for a very nice sum so that is one thing less to worry about.
I'll give it more thought 25 but that's what I can think about off the top of my head.
Thanks again for your help and your time 25. I really appreciate.
When the tough love technique does draw them back, is it because they really want back in on their own accord?
My guess is no, it's more likely they came back because you cornered them, out played them in the chess game, so to speak.
Is this the best way to build a truly loving and lasting relationship?
After the Last Chance Technique indeed.
Arsene, you sound really strong, so that's awesome.
I'm curious about the reasons for your 1st D. You said they were the same reasons your W wants to end your M. Did you figure this our by readind DB or by thinking about things?
I wrote to my 1st W a few months ago. First contact in 8 years. Told her I was in the middle of introspection and, among other things, asked her why she left. She said that she'd lost herself in me/us. She said she now thought she went around it the wrong way but she just didn't know how to reclaim herself and just ran away from it all.
She said she no longer blamed me for it. She blames herself for not being more open about her feelings. For being too agreeable. For not having the strength to stand up for herself in the face of what she now calls my passionate zest for life, but which IMO, is really just my overbearing arrogant assumption that I must be right. I then wrote back to tell her about my present sitch and that this was why I was getting some feedback about my life. I also told her not to be too hard on herself because it would appear she was right about me after all, since my 2nd W left for pretty much the same reasons, as far as I can tell.
About sounding strong? I guess I'm faking it real good.
Arsene, it's good to got some feedback from your first W. I kind of saw myself in what she said about being too agreeable and not standing up for myself, but I never thought about leaving my H bc of this. I think everybody reacts differently to the same circumstances. But overall, the fact that you're thinking about how you could be a better H is what matters.
I'm good at sounding strong too, even if I don't really feel it :-)
Your short-term plan sounds good.
My challenge to you: your December deadline. Why December? What if things don't change? I would stay away from a hard deadline and re-evaluating as time goes by...
When the tough love technique does draw them back, is it because they really want back in on their own accord?
My guess is no, it's more likely they came back because you cornered them, out played them in the chess game, so to speak.
In my experience of posting on this and other forums, this is not what the formerly wayward spouses -- particularly formerly wayward wives -- report as why this approach worked (when it did work). I like many parts of Dobson's approach and dislike some others, but I think it would be unfair to characterize the many thousands of successes that he's had as being simply "because you cornered them," just as it would be unfair to say that MWD's approach works simply because "you waited them out, while not doing anything to p*ss them off."
Just my opinion. I personally think there is much value in the best stuff out there, by MWD, Dobson, Penny Tupy, Janis Spring, Dr. Harley, Shirley Glass, Phil McGraw and others. But most of my advice (as with many of us) simply comes from my own experience of what worked for ME, coupled with my observations of what I've seen work BEST for others, in the MAJORITY of situations (since there is no one approach that's guaranteed to work for ANYONE). Ultimately, as Michele herself says, we should "do what works."
Starsky
Thanks for the reply Starsky, that makes a lot of sense to me.
I'm really enjoying my time on this board, and feel like it truly is helping me deal with my marriage crisis in a productive manner.
Hey, we're ALL biased towards what worked for us, FY. That's why most of us "old guys" are still here -- trying to help pay it forward and help others avoid some of the mistakes we made, and to hopefully benefit from what worked for us. For me, it was a hybrid of MWD and a couple of other approaches, but ultimately everyone has to decide for themselves what feels authentic to them, and to observe what is working.
It's all good.
Starsky
Thanks guys. I think this is a healthy debate and it does help. It s true that we should do what works but the problem I have is in identifying what is in fact working. I ve seen what I would call huge progress in the way W and I interact yet, what I see as progress has often been interpreted as W taking advantage of me. As much as I see this point, I still feel like I m ahead from where I was a few moths ago. Is this really progress or am I just going down a cheeseless tunnel?
It's a tough question, Arsene, and I post about this topic -- "how do you define 'working' " -- often.
One of the misconceptions about DBing, in my opinion, is the "Do what works" thing. The problem is that people mis-define "works" as being "what doesn't make her/him angry" and "what makes her/him act nice towards me." Instead of as "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."
Sometimes one has to take a short-term "hit" in the "nice" department in order to solidify a healthier, longer-term gain.
Starsky
As much as I see this point, I still feel like I m ahead from where I was a few months ago. Is this really progress or am I just going down a cheeseless tunnel?
I guess my question to you would be the same as the one I asked myself not too long ago- are you measuring progress through what is happening to you personally, or what is happening in your R with your W? Because you have 100% control over one and little if any control over the other. One leads to personal growth, improvement and enlightenment. The other to disappointment and confusion. One can influence improvement in the other, but not the other way around. I'm sure I don't have to tell you which is which
You can really tell where people are in this journey by their posts, if they're working on themselves then their posts highlight a lot of self-reflection; but if they're mired in trying to fix their R, their posts are very spouse-based.
You can really tell where people are in this journey by their posts, if they're working on themselves then their posts highlight a lot of self-reflection; but if they're mired in trying to fix their R, their posts are very spouse-based.
Very true mate. I feel like I've been slipping on the self front. Don't take me wrong. My 180s still stand and the progress I've done on myself is there to stay, but I've noticed how it's not been a huge focus lately. Thanks for pointing this out.
Still, on the relationship side of things, one should still see progress if one is to go on with what they are doing. I mean, yes I really want to be this great guy that is somewhere inside of me and I will never stop to work on this, but some of the things I'm doing now for my relationship have nothing to do with this. When I decide to pull back to help me detach and give wife time to miss me. How do I assess the progress on this?
When I see W seemingly coming around and spending more time at home with me and D8, and inviting me out. Is this really progress in my sitch? Or should this better me that I'm becoming not care about that?
Cheers mate!
Still, on the relationship side of things, one should still see progress if one is to go on with what they are doing.
Yes, that is true. And if there is no progress over several weeks, then we have to change things up. But on the other hand, you'll hear some of the old-timers talk about how the WAS has got to miss the LBS and/ or think they may lose them before they are willing to make a big move towards R. Unfortunately that usually doesn't happen until the LBS well and truly drops the rope. In dropping the rope the LBS is really releasing the WAS completely and saying "I'm no longer working on us, I'm working on me". Some people get there in weeks, others in months, others longer. And I think some LBS's never get there. And that's fine, there's no right or wrong to it. It's a personal journey.
When I decide to pull back to help me detach and give wife time to miss me. How do I assess the progress on this?
You'd need to see her reaching out to you whether it's calling, emailing, texting or a mix of those. Pursuit.
When I see W seemingly coming around and spending more time at home with me and D8, and inviting me out. Is this really progress in my sitch? Or should this better me that I'm becoming not care about that?
Yeah, that's definitely progress. But you have to celebrate those baby steps internally and continue DB'ing. Of course you care about it, but try not to show you care. It's the whole distance/ pursuit thing. You distance, she pursues. If you react too strongly to her pursuit then she goes back to distancing.
One of the misconceptions about DBing, in my opinion, is the "Do what works" thing. The problem is that people mis-define "works" as being "what doesn't make her/him angry" and "what makes her/him act nice towards me." Instead of as "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."
Sometimes one has to take a short-term "hit" in the "nice" department in order to solidify a healthier, longer-term gain.
Starsky
True, but there certainly is a time and place for taking the bolded path above. Like when the WAS is seriously threatening to start the D process. At this point "what works" is anything that stalls the D process and gives you a little time. Playing hard ball at the wrong time will only move you apart quicker.
I like to think I'm well past that point, and I really think Arsene is too. As far as I'm concerned my D has already been busted. I'm working on building a better marriage for us by working on me, and monitoring results. So, I'd say that "what works" is a process of constant adjustment.
When I decide to pull back to help me detach and give wife time to miss me. How do I assess the progress on this?
When I see W seemingly coming around and spending more time at home with me and D8, and inviting me out. Is this really progress in my sitch? Or should this better me that I'm becoming not care about that?
Cheers mate!
My question for you Arsene is, does your wife respect you? She is not likely to fall back in love with a man she doesn't respect. This is part of the bases for the CB approach. You stand up for yourself, set boundaries and stick to them, and she may start to show more respect for you and see you in a new light. Maybe even as a guy that will not wait around forever for her. I think this can be done without going dark though.
When the tough love technique does draw them back, is it because they really want back in on their own accord?
My guess is no, it's more likely they came back because you cornered them, out played them in the chess game, so to speak.
Is this the best way to build a truly loving and lasting relationship?
After the Last Chance Technique indeed.
Now I forget which LRT or technique was which, and didn't get too bogged down in that b/c it's just a guideline.
My h came home mostly, b/c he was afraid of losing me for good. And the kids...and it was about to be true.
he worked harder than HE expected, to get me to welcome him back into the home. I resisted but NOT b/c I wanted to punish him...really, I had no interest in that.
I just did not want to re-enter crazy roller coaster land of Limbo, when the girls and I had finally created a new, & pretty happy life, without him around.
I feared more drama. More indecision on his end. I feared he'd revert and we'd have to go for another round and truly, another round of this is NOT in my DNA.
I was happier than I had been in a long time (which he noticed) and I just believed and then KNEW that my future was bright.
A big part of me said "forget it. Why take the chance of being hurt again?" But I still loved him, though in a different way, and the kids did too, and I felt that all in all, trying to be an intact family after all the DB work I'd done, made sense. Forgiveness had mostly been achieved...
As for HIS view, his comments suggest that seeing
my confidence in MY future was intriguing...seeing that I was going to be fine sort of irked him but in a productive way...
it was surely better than the limbo had been. So to drop all that after all the work on myself that I'd done, well heck yes I was leery and wary of his "Changes".
Some of the changes were not solid enough, in hindsight & Retrovaille helped SO MUCH...
I forgave him but the d's had not. They wanted to, but he didn't "get" that he'd need to make up for things with THEM nearly as much as he does. HE and they are still working on that.
True, but there certainly is a time and place for taking the bolded path above. Like when the WAS is seriously threatening to start the D process. At this point "what works" is anything that stalls the D process and gives you a little time. Playing hard ball at the wrong time will only move you apart quicker.
I could have agreed with the first part of your post, FY, by saying "Well, not sure that if it's some tactical 'time' or 'place' but more like 'I wouldn't advise anyone to intentionally set out to be unnecessarily argumentative or combative'."
But it's precisely when your spouse starts down the divorce path that I would advise anyone to jettison ANY sort of "Oooh, I don't want to make him/her angry!" thoughts of mollification.
But that's all really here nor there -- my main point was people need a better set of criteria than "He/she seems to be nicer lately" to measure whether or not their efforts are "working." Because at best, it's a neutral piece of data, and at worst it's an intentional smoke-screen, as the wayward spouse is intentionally "nice" to the betrayed spouse in order to keep them in their proper place and to control them.
I would rather see someone define what "works" as "Is he/she making a demonstrable move back towards the marriage?" or "Has he/she stalled their once-hot divorce process?" or "Has she/he reduced or eliminated their contact with OM/OW?" -- that sort of thing. Far to many people go by whether or not their being "nice" or being "angry" ... especially us classic conflict-avoiders.
Starsky
My question for you Arsene is, does your wife respect you? She is not likely to fall back in love with a man she doesn't respect. This is part of the bases for the CB approach. You stand up for yourself, set boundaries and stick to them, and she may start to show more respect for you and see you in a new light. Maybe even as a guy that will not wait around forever for her. I think this can be done without going dark though.
Michele talks about this on pp. 122-123 of "Divorce Remedy," when she talks about the "Nice Guy" approach. I think some people would be stunned to read what she wrote about it, and should look it up.
Starsky
But it's precisely when your spouse starts down the divorce path that I would advise anyone to jettison ANY sort of "Oooh, I don't want to make him/her angry!" thoughts of mollification.
Hmmm, I don't know. I think if it were me on a fast track to file due to issues I had with my spouse, her trying to pull the rug out from under me with some tough love technique would only speed up my determination to continue. Maybe that's just me, and again, I don't beleive Arsene is in this tense position anyway.
Hmmm, I don't know. I think if it were me on a fast track to file due to issues I had with my spouse, her trying to pull the rug out from under me with some tough love technique would only speed up my determination to continue. Maybe that's just me, and again, I don't beleive Arsene is in this tense position anyway.
What if the "some tough love technique" were, you thought, AUTHENTIC, and what if it were accompanied by her hiring some bulldog attorney?
Guess we'll just have to agree-to-disagree on this one, LOL.
Starsky
Far to many people go by whether or not their being "nice" or being "angry" ... especially us classic conflict-avoiders.
Starsky
I too was always a conflict avoider, and even used MJD's "Brett & Stella" example you referred to in my first thread to justify a 180 I did when I let loose on W! As I posted in that thread, W did seem to respect me more afterwards.
Now I don't reccomend starting fights of course, but I do try to not hold in any discontent any longer. I also "choose my battles" wisely.
When the tough love technique does draw them back, is it because they really want back in on their own accord?
My guess is no, it's more likely they came back because you cornered them, out played them in the chess game, so to speak.
Is this the best way to build a truly loving and lasting relationship?
After the Last Chance Technique indeed.
It takes a mixture of both FY. The bottom line is, how do you balance it? That is the tough part.
I will say this though Arsene... the difference between my sitch at that time and your sitch now, is that I had laid down that boundary. I may have let her off of the hook too easily, but she knew that boundary.
Your W has no boundaries.
A second difference is that I had much more too make up for. From what I know about your sitch, I was a much bigger a$$hole in my prior R/M with my W than you ever were with your wife. I let that affect many of my choices back then. I hadn't forgiven myself at that point.
A third difference is that when my W did choose to have OM in her life, knowing that I would not be, I let her be. This part I am talking about occurred after the Disney trip. I no longer allowed her to play both sides of the fence. She knew that if she was in contact with OM, that I would not be there for her to lean on or to spend time with.
And it was THOSE times that my W truly had the chance to see that OM was NOT what she wanted. And that what she DID want was me and our M. Yes, it took her time to get passed some other aspects, ie, forgiving me for past hurt, and getting over fear that things would go back to being bad if she did make that leap back towards our M. But it gave her the time to travel her own path... to investigate other life choices that she COULD make if she ended up deciding that they were better for her.
Ultimately, the answer to that was that those other choices were not better for her.
I don't think that she would have gotten there had I lingered around during those times.
Lastly, I was not physically capable of letting myself be in her life knowing that she was having contact with OM. That just isn't me though.
---
It's is funny that you chose to talk about that part of my sitch because I think that it really was one of the top two or three points of the entire ordeal. It was a time that I could have made the choice to do something completely different than I did.
Right or wrong though, I did it my way. And I did travel my own path doing my best to use DB and the advice here to guide me.
I lived pretty much the entire gambit of it all.
So I understand what you are doing Arsene. All I can do is give you advice from what I see on the outside looking in, and based upon my own experience. I will add though that sometimes others do see your own situation better because they are not in the fishbowl. That's why it is easier to give other people advice than it is to follow the same advice yourself. (not speaking about you specifically... but of everyone).
Not going to edit this because I am tired... so I apologize in advance if it doesn't entirely make sense.
Thanks Denver,
Thanks for taking the time to reply in as much depth as you did, and thanks for seeing where I am as clearly as you do.
As you said, my W hasn't got any boundaries yet and that is because I'm not yet ready/in a position to enforce them if she were to cross them.
Another reason for this lack of boundaries is another difference in our sitches. After a few months, your W did come around from being completely DONE to reconsidering her position. Yes, she was still confused about OM but she at least considered the possibility of life with you once again. My W has never been there and she is still DONE. If I were to set a boundary, I am pretty sure she would walk. If she were to reconsider her position, I would insist on NC with OM, and make that a deal breaker.
Presently, I am considering a version of what you once referred to as plan A/plan B and making myself more desirable in her eye. I have seen some progress as you know but I still don't feel ready to act on anything. Right now, she seems to be going through a thinking phase and I guess I want to see this through and continue with what I'm doing, for now. As FY reminds us, Michele clearly states that you usually have to wait out the affair an I'm seeing how far I can go with this without putting pressure on her.
As you may remember, some of my issues were control and manipulation. W even thinks that my standing for the marriage smells of manipulation so any kind of pressure is sure to be seen as more of the same.
To conclude, as I mentioned earlier, the one thing I need to do now is REALLY GET A LIFE. Start focusing more on me and what I want to do for my future. This will have the effect of making me happier on my own and perhaps boosting my confidence, as well as preparing me for the worst case scenario, if it was to happen. It will also help me detach and create a bit of distance between me and W.
MKB, what you said about a sense of shame has been felt here as well and although not the main reason for not divulging my sitch, it has had an influence on my decision. My main reason still is that I don't really know that many people well enough to talk about this sort of thing around here.
Thank you all once again for your time and support.
Cheers!
I'm sick as a dog right now Arsene, so I apologize for my brief replies.
I get what you are doing. I really do.
The Plan A/Plan B thing is a perfectly acceptable way to go about this. The concern from my end though is that your W loses respect for you because you do seem okay with her having OM. A secondary concern for me is that you fall too much into a 'friend zone'.
You are certainly in Plan A right now. But even the author of the book who coined that term states that you should only be there temporarily.
Eventually, you HAVE to move into Plan B.
Hey Denver
Hope you aren't feeling too rough chief.
I think with Arsene and his sitch it has pretty much all been said, from different angles and approaches.
I agree that Arsene should do what he wants to do. He's not ready to do anything that will change the landscape on his sitch and would sooner be in limbo than to risk speeding towards a divorce.
I totally get where he is coming from, I understand his choices and I like yourself and a lot of other people on here know what it feels like to stand for a M when your spouse is having an affair.
It hurts and it grinds you down like nothing else can.
I wish you weren't going through this, but you are mate and no matter what approach you take and whatever the outcome, be it next week, or next year there is a lot more hurt to go through.
This thread is a bit like a circle, where you keep going round and end up in the same place, in the same conversations, with the same people, giving you the same advice.
Why do you think that is that mate?
How long are you going to stick to plan A?
When you weigh it all up, noone has got all the answers, we just have opinions and we have our own experiences.
I respect you for sticking to doing what you want to do mate, I just think you are keeping yourself trapped in a cycle of hurt and emotional cruelty, that won't be broken unless something changes it.
It's just my opinion and you should do what you want to do.
I don't think I can really say anything else that I haven't said before.
Good luck mate, I hope it all works out for you.
Bill
Thanks guys,
I feel this debate is moving along in a very healthy way and I'm getting loads of great opinions and different perspectives. All of this is hugely helpful.
In dropping the rope the LBS is really releasing the WAS completely and saying "I'm no longer working on us, I'm working on me".
This is a good way of putting it. Difficult to do, but I can see how the subtlety would make a difference.When I decide to pull back to help me detach and give wife time to miss me. How do I assess the progress on this?
You'd need to see her reaching out to you whether it's calling, emailing, texting or a mix of those. Pursuit.
These are things she has already been doing. I very rarely initiate contact. I guess I've been guilty of being overly available tough. This is what I'm working on now.When I see W seemingly coming around and spending more time at home with me and D8, and inviting me out. Is this really progress in my sitch? Or should this better me that I'm becoming not care about that?
Yeah, that's definitely progress. But you have to celebrate those baby steps internally and continue DB'ing. Of course you care about it, but try not to show you care. It's the whole distance/ pursuit thing. You distance, she pursues. If you react too strongly to her pursuit then she goes back to distancing.
Hmmm, and this is where me pulling back right now might have a bigger impact than being overly available.
True, but there certainly is a time and place for taking the bolded path above. Like when the WAS is seriously threatening to start the D process. At this point "what works" is anything that stalls the D process and gives you a little time. Playing hard ball at the wrong time will only move you apart quicker.
I like to think I'm well past that point, and I really think Arsene is too. As far as I'm concerned my D has already been busted. I'm working on building a better marriage for us by working on me, and monitoring results. So, I'd say that "what works" is a process of constant adjustment.
My question for you Arsene is, does your wife respect you? She is not likely to fall back in love with a man she doesn't respect. This is part of the bases for the CB approach. You stand up for yourself, set boundaries and stick to them, and she may start to show more respect for you and see you in a new light. Maybe even as a guy that will not wait around forever for her. I think this can be done without going dark though.
I was happier than I had been in a long time (which he noticed) and I just believed and then KNEW that my future was bright.
A big part of me said "forget it. Why take the chance of being hurt again?" But I still loved him, though in a different way, and the kids did too, and I felt that all in all, trying to be an intact family after all the DB work I'd done, made sense. Forgiveness had mostly been achieved...
As for HIS view, his comments suggest that seeing
my confidence in MY future was intriguing...seeing that I was going to be fine sort of irked him but in a productive way...
[/color]
But that's all really here nor there -- my main point was people need a better set of criteria than "He/she seems to be nicer lately" to measure whether or not their efforts are "working." Because at best, it's a neutral piece of data, and at worst it's an intentional smoke-screen, as the wayward spouse is intentionally "nice" to the betrayed spouse in order to keep them in their proper place and to control them.
I would rather see someone define what "works" as "Is he/she making a demonstrable move back towards the marriage?" or "Has he/she stalled their once-hot divorce process?" or "Has she/he reduced or eliminated their contact with OM/OW?" -- that sort of thing. Far to many people go by whether or not their being "nice" or being "angry" ... especially us classic conflict-avoiders.
Starsky
WRT "Is he/she making a demonstrable move back towards the marriage?". What is a demonstrable move? Does it happen overnight or progressively? I never expected W to have a 180 turnaround (well, maybe I did a one time but that was foolish of me). It took a lot of thought and "guts" for her to decide to leave her family and it'll be the same for the way back. The first step towards "Is he/she making a demonstrable move back towards the marriage?". might just be "He/she seems to be nicer lately"
Michele talks about this on pp. 122-123 of "Divorce Remedy," when she talks about the "Nice Guy" approach. I think some people would be stunned to read what she wrote about it, and should look it up.
Starsky
Good point Starsky. I don't think this is something that can be faked. You have to be there and to do this you need to detach. You need to stop caring about the outcome, or to visualize a different outcome. I'm working on this mate.
Hmmm, I don't know. I think if it were me on a fast track to file due to issues I had with my spouse, her trying to pull the rug out from under me with some tough love technique would only speed up my determination to continue. Maybe that's just me, and again, I don't beleive Arsene is in this tense position anyway.
Now I don't recommend starting fights of course, but I do try to not hold in any discontent any longer. I also "choose my battles" wisely.
I'm sick as a dog right now Arsene, so I apologize for my brief replies.
I get what you are doing. I really do.
The Plan A/Plan B thing is a perfectly acceptable way to go about this. The concern from my end though is that your W loses respect for you because you do seem okay with her having OM. A secondary concern for me is that you fall too much into a 'friend zone'.
You are certainly in Plan A right now. But even the author of the book who coined that term states that you should only be there temporarily.
Eventually, you HAVE to move into Plan B.
I hope you get better soon mate. I know what you mean. There was a time for being friends and I hope we have achieved this but now, do I want to stagnate there? The question here is how long is temporary?
I respect you for sticking to doing what you want to do mate, I just think you are keeping yourself trapped in a cycle of hurt and emotional cruelty, that won't be broken unless something changes it.
Thanks Bill. I understand what you are saying and I see exactly where I need to go. As you pointed out, the advice on this thread is loud and clear and pretty consistent. The only variable in our opinions seems to be the timing.
I think it's pretty much agreed that we can't just fake it. That it has to be heartfelt for it to be credible. Unfortunately, this all depends on the individual and the situation. What is my threshold? How much of this can I take? I'm not sure yet but I can feel things changing in me.
As 25 states, I'm still young at this DB thing, relatively, so my timeline of December to re-assess things would only put me at 7 months (disregarding of course the 2 years since EA, after which we seemed to be working on things together). What will I do in December? Who knows what state of mind I'll be in? I'm living it day by day for now and trying not to get ahead of myself. I don't need tomorrow's problems today. Wow, this WAS a marathon. Thanks so much for your continued support my friends. This thread has taken on a life of its own and I really appreciate your contributions. It's helping me define my thoughts more clearly.
Now just a bit of journaling.
I've been conducting a little experiment for the last few weeks. Since my W occasionally uses my computer when she is here. This is with my permission usually but also at times when I'm not there. I haven't said anything because it is the family computer and she could be on it with D8 as well. What I've done is I have visited sites on advice for Divorce (Should I get a divorce, How do I know if divorce is right for us, etc...)as well as websites that give the truth about divorce through surveys which show that in most cases, it doesn't bring happiness and sticking it out is much better for the kids. I used to erase this stuff from the history so that W wouldn't see or know what I was up to but lately, I've been leaving it all in the history, I guess to see if it gets noticed.
Yesterday afternoon, W texted me to ask if she could stay overnight. We'd talked about it the day before and I had already said it would be fine but I didn't mention that and just said it was no problems. I see it as W trying really hard to make sure she respects my request on this, which is good.
I got home after work and W and D8 were out cycling so I got myself ready. I'd planned to go out but I wanted to see D8 before leaving. D8 told me that when she is out with W, W often tells her that they have to come home because daddy will be angry. D8 says that she constantly tells W that daddy doesn't get angry anymore and she doesn't understand why W doesn't believe her. Anyway, since then I make a point not to even sound slightly cross, no matter what time they get home. I put on my upbeat PMA and decided to wait patiently. Besides, I also wanted W to see me leave, all dressed up.
W and D8 got home and we had a pleasant few minutes. W then asked if I was leaving and I told her I was, without volunteering where or with whom and I left.
I really didn't do much. I just met a former colleague for a few drinks and was back home at around 11 pm, after everyone was in bed. At around 10 pm, while I was out, I noticed I'd received a text from W at 9 pm, about our "immigration date" in the morning, in which she tells me to "Have a nice evening" and "Good night". There really was no reasons to text me about the "immigration date" in the evening as we were to have breakfast together in the morning anyway. As I only noticed the text later I didn't bother answering it. Besides, it didn't require a reply other than possibly me wishing her good night back.
When I got home, everyone was in bed and I noticed that someone had been on the computer. I checked the history and Lo and behold, someone had looked at a few divorce pages a bit before 9 pm.
In the morning, all was pleasant but with minimum talk, and W took D8 to school. I then picked her up at her home a few hours later to go to immigration. As far as I know, this was a nearly perfect DB day. I was pleasant and cheerful but distant. We smiled at each other when I got there and I didn't start any chit-chat, but simply waited for her to get on the bike. I guess that worried her as she asked me if I was ok, to which I simply replied, yes while continuing to smile. Not a word was exchanged during the ride there (30 minutes in traffic)which is not unusual while riding a motorcycle in the heavy traffic, however, we usually have some brief exchanges/comments on any given ride.
While parking the bike, I hit the finger which I had hurt a few weeks back in my accident and felt a surge of pain. W was so worried that the finger might be broken since it hadn't healed yet and even said I should get it X-rayed and she would pay for it if i needed. I simply thanked her and assured her I was fine. Quite a change from the day of the accident when she appeared so cold and uncaring.
At immigration, we were told that the paper we were to collect still weren't ready and that we'd have to wait. This would usually have sent me off in anger but, lately I've been good at showing patience and even a certain acceptance in the face of what used to really upset me. The place was full and we had to stand (another thing that used to annoy me) so i did and I didn't initiate any talk with W. She on the other hand, went on about how inefficient this all was. I validated her feeling but didn't contribute to her rants. I simply busied myself, looking around, appearing not to mind the wait.
W eventually found a seat and she went to take it. I didn't move to follow her as there was only one free seat anyway. I casually leaned on a wall and went on my phone to change some settings, and perhaps to look like I was receiving and sending texts (an unusual thing as I never really got calls or texts in the past). We were eventually told that the paper would not be ready today, which I took with a smile and my new-found acceptance.
While retrieving the motorcycle from the parking lot, an old lady came over to ask for change. I used to always find reasons not to give and one of my 180s was to work on my greed issues and try to become more generous so as of the last 5 months or so, I always give without thinking, not spare change but usually a bill. I read something about acting on your first thought because once you start to think about it, you end up justifying not giving anything. That is what I had been doing all my life so now I just automatically reach in my wallet for a bill, which I did now for the first time in front of W, to her surprise I must say.
W then had to go to some government office for D8's school so she asked me if I would take her and I did (it's for our D8). The traffic was really bad on the way there but I was always very calm, and I didn't even acknowledge it when someone almost hit us. This is the type of situation which used to drive me up the wall and get me into one of my anger fits. But now, W is the one who actually said something, while I stayed quiet.
Again, very little conversation on the ride there. She asked me to stay outside to make things easier (sometimes the presence of a foreigner makes the process more difficult as civil servants expect a bribe for doing their jobs), which I did, very patiently.
After 30 minutes she came back to a very relaxed me, quietly sitting on a bench smiling at nature and texting on my phone. This from a man who used to be so impatient that after 15 minutes he would have called her to ask what the problem was.
Once that was out of the way, I simply drove her home and left after thanking her for her help.
It didn't feel bad as I was always pleasant and answered her direct questions in my usual manner. The only difference is that I left the ball in her court at all time, and I only offered slightly more than the minimum, as to not appear rude.
I feel like I'm playing a bit of a game and that is something which I don't usually like but in trying to act "as if", right now it's what I need to do. Once my network has expanded and I do get texts and calls more often, I won't need to make believe that I have a life.
Now, just one question before I end this post. My W used to be the kind of woman who would sacrifice herself to please others or to make sure others are happy. This is probably what led to the present sitch.
What if, in her mind, she thinks that I'm moving on and that I'm happy and decides that even if she would like to come back, she should just let me go on and be happy in my new life. I know she probably feels guilty and even she might get the idea that she's not good enough for me anymore after the harm she's caused me.
Wow, They sound like some great 180's
If nothing else you will be such a better person for it and I'm sure your D8 will appreciate it more than you will ever know. Having someone constantly so angry over such small things can be sooo physically and mentally draining.
As for your question. I battled with that one too but I'm done. I'm living for me and my Children now. If she loves you enough, I'm sure she would ask you. Had you not found this site and you seen your W change like that, Would you not have still asked or tried?
Keep it up, Your doing great!!
Arsene,
Great journal! I'm almost envious because your W seems clearly interested. And that's awesome.
My W (as far as I can tell) has no interest. She moved in with OM and living the high-life. She loves him and he has more to offer than I do. Our marriage was full of financial destruction and brokenness. There are many reasons she would not want to be back in my life. So I've been trying to make my life without her better - for my kids (when I'm with them) and myself.
But, I wonder the same things about my W. I have done a lot of changing and actually accepted Christ back into my life. We have to remember though, it's that peculiar attraction which gets them. They may see us in a different light and wonder whether or not they could handle the 'new' us or if they are even good enough for us. But I believe it's what draws them to us. Especially the more they are around us.
It's the strength we show through the changes. There's a courage that comes with it. It's valiant. Women, I believe, still have this romantic view of the so-called 'Knight in shining armor' who comes to rescue them. Which in most of our cases is not in the physical realm, but in the emotional.
Continue to show your valiant efforts with the drastic changes you have made. This produces a huge attraction. Do everything possible to make them stick. Let it take all the time it needs. One drastic, out of the place move could scare her away.
Now just a bit of journaling.
I've been conducting a little experiment for the last few weeks. Since my W occasionally uses my computer when she is here. This is with my permission usually but also at times when I'm not there. I haven't said anything because it is the family computer and she could be on it with D8 as well. What I've done is I have visited sites on advice for Divorce (Should I get a divorce, How do I know if divorce is right for us, etc...)as well as websites that give the truth about divorce through surveys which show that in most cases, it doesn't bring happiness and sticking it out is much better for the kids. I used to erase this stuff from the history so that W wouldn't see or know what I was up to but lately, I've been leaving it all in the history, I guess to see if it gets noticed.
Yesterday afternoon, W texted me to ask if she could stay overnight. We'd talked about it the day before and I had already said it would be fine but I didn't mention that and just said it was no problems. I see it as W trying really hard to make sure she respects my request on this, which is good.
I got home after work and W and D8 were out cycling so I got myself ready. I'd planned to go out but I wanted to see D8 before leaving. D8 told me that when she is out with W, W often tells her that they have to come home because daddy will be angry. D8 says that she constantly tells W that daddy doesn't get angry anymore and she doesn't understand why W doesn't believe her. Anyway, since then I make a point not to even sound slightly cross, no matter what time they get home.
this is called doing a 180 AND not fueling her negative images of you and reasons for leaving. I get it and think in general it's A MAJOR GOAL....
But it does not mean you can't learn to navigate better, without anger, so that you can anticipate a time of arrival. Someday their arrival time might matter more than merely just b/c you like to know when. What if you have plans?
Down the road when you are more detached, you might have "plans" to attend to, so then you LEAVE when she's really too late...so w has to stay with d or make arrangements b/c you can no longer take d with you, for instance.
When I dated a guy, if he was more than say, 15 min late without calling, I'd go out...sounds silly or punitive perhaps. But I was young and could not stand to wonder if I was being stood up, or made to feel as if I was "waiting". My boyfriends were rarely late.
Still, it's crucial you not come across as angry b/c of your history and how your d sees you. The lesson that "a man can change" is something SO valuable, which you are teaching your d.
That's gold, Arsene.
I put on my upbeat PMA and decided to wait patiently. Besides, I also wanted W to see me leave, all dressed up.
W and D8 got home and we had a pleasant few minutes. W then asked if I was leaving and I told her I was, without volunteering where or with whom and I left.
I really didn't do much. I just met a former colleague for a few drinks and was back home at around 11 pm, after everyone was in bed. At around 10 pm, while I was out, I noticed I'd received a text from W at 9 pm, about our "immigration date" in the morning, in which she tells me to "Have a nice evening" and "Good night". There really was no reasons to text me about the "immigration date" in the evening as we were to have breakfast together in the morning anyway. As I only noticed the text later I didn't bother answering it. Besides, it didn't require a reply other than possibly me wishing her good night back.
When I got home, everyone was in bed and I noticed that someone had been on the computer. I checked the history and Lo and behold, someone had looked at a few divorce pages a bit before 9 pm.
In the morning, all was pleasant but with minimum talk, and W took D8 to school. I then picked her up at her home a few hours later to go to immigration. As far as I know, this was a nearly perfect DB day. I was pleasant and cheerful but distant. We smiled at each other when I got there and I didn't start any chit-chat, but simply waited for her to get on the bike. I guess that worried her as she asked me if I was ok, to which I simply replied, yes while continuing to smile. Not a word was exchanged during the ride there (30 minutes in traffic)which is not unusual while riding a motorcycle in the heavy traffic, however, we usually have some brief exchanges/comments on any given ride.
While parking the bike, I hit the finger which I had hurt a few weeks back in my accident and felt a surge of pain. W was so worried that the finger might be broken since it hadn't healed yet and even said I should get it X-rayed and she would pay for it if i needed. I simply thanked her and assured her I was fine. Quite a change from the day of the accident when she appeared so cold and uncaring.
At immigration, we were told that the paper we were to collect still weren't ready and that we'd have to wait. This would usually have sent me off in anger but, lately I've been good at showing patience and even a certain acceptance in the face of what used to really upset me. The place was full and we had to stand (another thing that used to annoy me) so i did and I didn't initiate any talk with W. She on the other hand, went on about how inefficient this all was. I validated her feeling but didn't contribute to her rants. I simply busied myself, looking around, appearing not to mind the wait.
Based on your history, my guess is she was "ranting" on your behalf, (and reading your mind??) so you "validating her", is hilariously ironic to me. You could be honest next time and say "I know I USED to screw my head in the ceiling about this stuff, but I finally realized, life's too short", or something like that.
I guess, "Validating" what she's saying when she thinks it's your belief, is a little weird to me. Just wondering if being open about something that's not R related, isn't a tad more productive and honest and...real...
W eventually found a seat and she went to take it. I didn't move to follow her as there was only one free seat anyway. I casually leaned on a wall and went on my phone to change some settings, and perhaps to look like I was receiving and sending texts (an unusual thing as I never really got calls or texts in the past). We were eventually told that the paper would not be ready today, which I took with a smile and my new-found acceptance.
While retrieving the motorcycle from the parking lot, an old lady came over to ask for change. I used to always find reasons not to give and one of my 180s was to work on my greed issues and try to become more generous so as of the last 5 months or so, I always give without thinking, not spare change but usually a bill. I read something about acting on your first thought because once you start to think about it, you end up justifying not giving anything. That is what I had been doing all my life so now I just automatically reach in my wallet for a bill, which I did now for the first time in front of W, to her surprise I must say.
it's a great 180 if you can afford it.
W then had to go to some government office for D8's school so she asked me if I would take her and I did (it's for our D8). The traffic was really bad on the way there but I was always very calm, and I didn't even acknowledge it when someone almost hit us. This is the type of situation which used to drive me up the wall and get me into one of my anger fits. But now, W is the one who actually said something, while I stayed quiet.
Again, very little conversation on the ride there. She asked me to stay outside to make things easier (sometimes the presence of a foreigner makes the process more difficult as civil servants expect a bribe for doing their jobs), which I did, very patiently.
After 30 minutes she came back to a very relaxed me, quietly sitting on a bench smiling at nature and texting on my phone. This from a man who used to be so impatient that after 15 minutes he would have called her to ask what the problem was.
Glad you don't do that^^ anymore...never speeds things up, does it?
Once that was out of the way, I simply drove her home and left after thanking her for her help.
It didn't feel bad as I was always pleasant and answered her direct questions in my usual manner. The only difference is that I left the ball in her court at all time, and I only offered slightly more than the minimum, as to not appear rude.
I feel like I'm playing a bit of a game and that is something which I don't usually like but in trying to act "as if", right now it's what I need to do. Once my network has expanded and I do get texts and calls more often, I won't need to make believe that I have a life.
Now, just one question before I end this post. My W used to be the kind of woman who would sacrifice herself to please others or to make sure others are happy. This is probably what led to the present sitch.
What if, in her mind, she thinks that I'm moving on and that I'm happy and decides that even if she would like to come back, she should just let me go on and be happy in my new life. I know she probably feels guilty and even she might get the idea that she's not good enough for me anymore after the harm she's caused me.
Two things. First,
This^^^ is a lie a lot of LBSers tell themselves to justify more pursuit. But it's still a lie. Or do You think BECAUSE she's a pleaser, she'd return? Wouldn't that have worked by now? She knows how you feel.
Second, NO she does NOT think she's not good enough for you. She doesn't even believe your changes yet...what are you telling yourself here? Whatever guilt she feels may be real but it's NOT the same as believing you're too good for her. More like she regrets leaving her d behind and since MAYBE you've changed, she'll reconsider...LATER ON...don't hold your breath but if things are changing in her, to me, that would be why, so your analysis is flawed there for sure.
Finally,
Consider Your choices...They are to show her your pain and loneliness, which is NOT attractive, NOT DBing and NOT successful in getting reconciled.
I can't think of A single WAW who returned b/c her h fell apart needing her and clinging...
OR you can show her a man who can make it on his own, who brings something to the table, knows his value, has a life, has friends b/c he IS a good friend, etc. In short,
A man that only a fool would leave, is NOT a miserable man.
He does not pretend that showing her a desparate lonely person "proves" his love for her. Your misery is not an index of love for her.
It only shows weakness and need. It's a turn off.
Stay strong. Remember faithisbelieving ("FIB") had a motto. I THINK he shared it with others and Denver may have picked up on it.
Strength and honor. Live by it, and you won't go wrong.
Wow, They sound like some great 180's
If nothing else you will be such a better person for it and I'm sure your D8 will appreciate it more than you will ever know. Having someone constantly so angry over such small things can be sooo physically and mentally draining.
Yeah, I've been working at this for about 5 months now. Meditation helps a lot but the main thing is to be aware.
Unfortunately, although she noticed the changes, W doesn't WANT to believe in them. I think they just don't match with her plans right now. She really wants to be DONE. After all, it was probably hard to leave. In fact she had to do it by email while I was in another country. That's ok though. I've got time on my side and I'm also learning to be patient. As yo said, I'll be(am) a much better person no matter what.
Thanks SS
Arsene,
Great journal! I'm almost envious because your W seems clearly interested. And that's awesome.
My W (as far as I can tell) has no interest. She moved in with OM and living the high-life. She loves him and he has more to offer than I do. Our marriage was full of financial destruction and brokenness. There are many reasons she would not want to be back in my life. So I've been trying to make my life without her better - for my kids (when I'm with them) and myself.
But, I wonder the same things about my W. I have done a lot of changing and actually accepted Christ back into my life. We have to remember though, it's that peculiar attraction which gets them. They may see us in a different light and wonder whether or not they could handle the 'new' us or if they are even good enough for us. But I believe it's what draws them to us. Especially the more they are around us.
It's the strength we show through the changes. There's a courage that comes with it. It's valiant. Women, I believe, still have this romantic view of the so-called 'Knight in shining armor' who comes to rescue them. Which in most of our cases is not in the physical realm, but in the emotional.
Continue to show your valiant efforts with the drastic changes you have made. This produces a huge attraction. Do everything possible to make them stick. Let it take all the time it needs. One drastic, out of the place move could scare her away.
Thanks TPC,
It's strange to hear that someone might be envious of my sitch but I guess I am grateful that we are back on talking terms and that we can have great interactions at times. I know it's much tougher on others around here. I've had a read at your thread and it seems unbelievable how fast things deteriorated to where they are today.
One thing I've been told around here and that has somehow helped me is that you are not in competition with OM. You are in competition with your old self and that is the real challenge because when your W sees you, it's the old you she sees, no matter who you are today. You have to strive to change your old pattern and be consistent, perhaps for a long time before he changes are believed.
Heck my W has actually acknowledged many of my changes and has noticed how differently D8 interacts with me but she still refuses to believe in them. Or she's no ready or willing to right now.
I'll keep what you say in mind and try to at least show valiance and courage because I sure don't feel it most days. I know what you mean though and knowing that I'm doing the right thing works miracles on my PMA and on my self-respect.
Thanks for your time mate.
this is called doing a 180 AND not fueling her negative images of you and reasons for leaving. I get it and think in general it's A MAJOR GOAL....
But it does not mean you can't learn to navigate better, without anger, so that you can anticipate a time of arrival. Someday their arrival time might matter more than merely just b/c you like to know when. What if you have plans?
Down the road when you are more detached, you might have "plans" to attend to, so then you LEAVE when she's really too late...so w has to stay with d or make arrangements b/c you can no longer take d with you, for instance.
When I dated a guy, if he was more than say, 15 min late without calling, I'd go out...sounds silly or punitive perhaps. But I was young and could not stand to wonder if I was being stood up, or made to feel as if I was "waiting". My boyfriends were rarely late.
Still, it's crucial you not come across as angry b/c of your history and how your d sees you. The lesson that "a man can change" is something SO valuable, which you are teaching your d.
That's gold, Arsene.
Yeah, I get what you're saying but the thing is in this country, people are very liberal with schedules and it's not unusual for people to be as much as an hour late. It used to drive me up the walls and I often lost it because of this so another 180 was to work on my patience so I don't really have to put it on so much anymore. I have managed to relax my expectations when it comes to schedules and to keep cool when things don't go according to the schedule. When in Rome...
Based on your history, my guess is she was "ranting" on your behalf, (and reading your mind??) so you "validating her", is hilariously ironic to me. You could be honest next time and say "I know I USED to screw my head in the ceiling about this stuff, but I finally realized, life's too short", or something like that.
I guess, "Validating" what she's saying when she thinks it's your belief, is a little weird to me. Just wondering if being open about something that's not R related, isn't a tad more productive and honest and...real...
I understand what you mean. I've had to deal with this many times since I got back here. Sometimes I think she is turning in the old me. Many things which she says or does now, are the very same things she blamed me for. I somehow don't think I needed to point it out. My action spoke louder than any word I could have spoken there. It's sure to re-occur so I might just mention it the next time.
it's a great 180 if you can afford it.
A bill around here is worth as little as .10 cents. I gave the lady the equivalent of .50 cents, which is about 20 times more than what they usually get. I'm not rich but I've realised lately that I still have a lot more than the average person around here and over the last 5 months that I've been working on this 180, I can't say I've missed the money at all. For some reason, what you give comes back to you. I was very fortunate to find the few jobs I have now which are more than sufficient to provide for my D8 at least properly, if not luxuriously.
after 15 minutes he would have called her to ask what the problem was.
Glad you don't do that^^ anymore...never speeds things up, does it?
Thanks to DB, 180s, and the fine people around here who helped me figure myself out.
What if, in her mind, she thinks that I'm moving on and that I'm happy and decides that even if she would like to come back, she should just let me go on and be happy in my new life. I know she probably feels guilty and even she might get the idea that she's not good enough for me anymore after the harm she's caused me.
Two things. First,
This^^^ is a lie a lot of LBSers tell themselves to justify more pursuit. But it's still a lie. Or do You think BECAUSE she's a pleaser, she'd return? Wouldn't that have worked by now? She knows how you feel.
Second, NO she does NOT think she's not good enough for you. She doesn't even believe your changes yet...what are you telling yourself here? Whatever guilt she feels may be real but it's NOT the same as believing you're too good for her. More like she regrets leaving her d behind and since MAYBE you've changed, she'll reconsider...LATER ON...don't hold your breath but if things are changing in her, to me, that would be why, so your analysis is flawed there for sure.
Finally,
Consider Your choices...They are to show her your pain and loneliness, which is NOT attractive, NOT DBing and NOT successful in getting reconciled.
I can't think of A single WAW who returned b/c her h fell apart needing her and clinging...
OR you can show her a man who can make it on his own, who brings something to the table, knows his value, has a life, has friends b/c he IS a good friend, etc. In short,
A man that only a fool would leave, is NOT a miserable man.
He does not pretend that showing her a desparate lonely person "proves" his love for her. Your misery is not an index of love for her.
It only shows weakness and need. It's a turn off.
Stay strong. Remember faithisbelieving ("FIB") had a motto. I THINK he shared it with others and Denver may have picked up on it.
Strength and honor. Live by it, and you won't go wrong.
Thanks 25. You are probably right. I'm terrible at reading people and a lot of what I'm doing now seems very "wrong". It feels like I'm sabotaging myself by refusing to be her friend and be there for her. I've noticed that although I've been saying that I follow LRT to a T, I've been way too available and I haven't been the one ending the conversation all the time. If we do get into another conversation, I'll make a point to be there for her for a bit and then find a reason to end it.
I know what you're saying about not showing her a weak, sad, pleading man. I managed to get over of that one a while ago. I also believe that showing strength is better no matter what. I'm just not sure what to expect out of this right now.
I wish I could be consistently strong. Woke up this morning with W on my mind and a huge knot in my stomach. W sent a text at 2 am saying she wants to cancel immigration this morning, which might cause some problems for my visa. Even my D8 said last night that W was behaving like a teenager, sleeping on the floor and staying out til late with her friends and just doing what she wanted, when she wanted. I wish W could hear her D8 talk like that about her. What would she think? Probably that i put these idea in her head and blame me for it. Sigh... I hate feeling this way. Got to get my PMA back.
Arsene, I'm sorry about your feeling like this...I can completely relate to it. Feelings come in cycles, some longer than others.
I was thinking about what tpc1977 said, and it's true. Us, women, are romantic (most of the time) so we are attracted to a man who fulfills our romantic ideals. In your sitch, this might translate into being the best you can be, patient, thoughtful, self-assured, creative (fun) and kind. You know your W better--what attracted her to you in the first place?
Good luck with the visa...
Hey Arsene...
PMA is a tough and fickle thing sometimes... I know I'm struggling with it MIGHTILY over the last few days.
And being consistently strong... Well, I'm right there with you... tossing pennies into that wishing well...
But I think we're both getting BETTER at being strong. Of course we'll have our moments where our vulnerability takes over, but this whole process is going to help... and our strength will continue to grow.
You know all the mantras: Detach, PMA, no expectations etc etc... They're here for a reason, and we'll do well to remind ourselves of them at every turn.
Keep your chin up. We'll get through this.
Arsene keep up the good work brother. A fellow LBS is cheering you on, stay strong.
Hey Brother!!!!!!!I need to get caught up on your sitch. I hope your doing well Arsene!
I wish I could be consistently strong. Woke up this morning with W on my mind and a huge knot in my stomach.
Just so you know--I've felt that too, a sense of dread hsnging over me...
Worse to me, was waking up w/a good happy feeling- only to have it vanish, when I'd remember, "oh yeah, h is leaving..." SIGH... 
Yes it's normal. But it still stings.
W sent a text at 2 am saying she wants to cancel immigration this morning, which might cause some problems for my visa. Even my D8 said last night that W was behaving like a teenager, sleeping on the floor and staying out til late with her friends and just doing what she wanted, when she wanted.
I wish W could hear her D8 talk like that about her. What would she think? Probably that i put these idea in her head and blame me for it.
probably yes...OR it's your fault anyhow. Trust me on one thing Arsene, if guilt could get them home, my h would've rushed home. I'm pretty good at the guilt thing BUT even our d1, then 16, ASKED H TO STAY & she cried, & he loves her very much...& he left anyhow... Sigh... I hate feeling this way.
Got to get my PMA back.
YES--you do need a PMA, whatever it takes...you need a PMA, for several reasons you already know.
Tori, AT, Subguy and Rough,
Thanks for being here. I'm going through a rough patch today. I don't know if it's withdrawal or something else.
Something has been on my mind since yesterday. When W and I were riding across town, we came to the cultural centre near city hall and there, on a bigger-than-life sign was my W's name. It turns out she's opening for a big local act on Sunday.
I'm torn apart by my feelings. I wish I could be happy for her but selfishly, I'm upset because I guess I'm afraid she will make it on her own, be happy and not need me anymore because she'll see this new found happiness as something which happened because she left me.
The thing is, she had it coming. She is a really good singer and since she has left, she's been doing things which I'd been encouraging her to do for years. It just s_cks that we can't share this moment together.
It s_cks that I can't seem to find it in me to be happy for her.
It s_cks that I had to find out about it this way. She was so dismissive when I mentioned it and she was evasive when I asked her what time she was playing. I guess she doesn't want me there.
This is probably the reason for my mood.
Thanks 25. I does help to know that even you who today seem so strong, have been through this. I'll get my PMA back I'm sure.
Tomorrow is a holiday and tonight a former colleague is having a birthday party at a Karaoke bar. I won't know anyone but the former colleague and even that, we were never that close either, but I'm going anyway and I plan on having a good time singing my heart out.
I'll get out of these slumps for sure. Thanks again!
I question my DBing this evening.
I got home and D8 was in her room crying. I calmly ask W what had happened and apparently D8 had been yelling and having tantrums and even hitting the maid. I just couldn't understand what had happened as she has been consistently good for the last few months, doing what she has to do when she has to do it and behaving well in every way.
W said that it's always that way and that she didn't understand why. She said that even in the past D8 had always behaved badly when I wasn't around but would calm down when I was around. She used to think that D8 was afraid of me but lately, that can't be the reason. I wanted to tell wife that perhaps D8 sees me as a responsible parent while she sees her (W) as a teenager and a buddy, but I didn't. At one point, while I was calmly asking about the situation, W got on the defensive and I assured her that I was in no way criticizing her, that I simply wished to know what the problem was. This calmed her down.
Later, after dinner, W was going through the fridge to get some drinks for D8 as she was taking her to her gig (an early finish) and then D8 would spend the night at hers. She asked me if she could take a few small drinks with her. I said she could as long as there were at least a few left for D8's school on Friday and Saturday. Again, W got on the defensive and started saying angrily that it was OK, then, she could just buy some herself. I stopped her (I guess I should have validated but I didn't) and stated quite firmly but without anger that all I had asked was if there were at least a few left. She said there were and I told her she could take what she needed then. Then I restated, again firmly:"That was all I asked W!". She darted out without speaking and I went to make sure D8 had all she needed for an overnight stay.
It looked to me like W was about to leave without saying goodbye and I went to the door to ask her calmly when she thought she would drop D8 off. There we had a "normal" talk for a bit but I could see that W was tense. In the end, I wished her a good gig and walked in without looking back. By the time I'd come back out with D8 W was around the corner getting in the car. D8 then followed on her own.
I don't know if it's the distance I've created recently that is the cause of this and I'm not sure what it means and how to handle it from here. How should I read all of this renewed anger? I know it's kind of what I told DBmod I was expecting out of her if I managed to distance myself but I frankly didn't really think it would be so instant. Besides, is this really what I want? What is going on in her head right now? Am I helping my situation or am I making it worse?
Ride it like a wave, you may never know why she's angry. You handled you end of it, that's what matters.
About your daughter, kids usually have different behaviors around each parent so I wouldn't read too much into that.
But, tantruming and hitting is 2-3 yr old behavior. Is this new or has she done this in the past?
I don't know if it's the distance I've created recently that is the cause of this and I'm not sure what it means and how to handle it from here. How should I read all of this renewed anger?
Accuray posted this bit of wisdom a while back and it may shed some light on her new anger:
Yes, this is completely normal, and there are two reasons for this:
1) There were changes your wife wanted you to make for a long time and you didn't make them, and she suffered as a result. Now it seems that you can make them so easily, it makes her angry that you made her suffer so long. She'll get over that, keep at it.
2) A walkaway spouse has often constructed a scenario in their head where you are the bad one, you pushed them to do whatever they have done, and they are the victim. When you 180 their complaints and don't act the role of the "bad guy" it's harder for them to convince themselves that they are the victim and they don't like that, so they get angry. They want you to play your part! If you keep doing the bad stuff it reinforces their decision to walk and makes them feel better about it.
Another thing to expect is that your wife will run "hot and cold" -- she'll be nice to you one minute and the next will shut down hard. This is extremely confusing. Here's what's going on -- your wife will "try on" being nice to you to see how it feels, or if she gets comfortable may slide back into a familiar partner role. At some point she'll catch herself, will worry that you'll get the impression that everything is now "okay" when for her it is not, and will then make sure to demonstrate to you that everything is NOT okay by shutting you out and pushing you away. That's all an inner dialog so to you it just looks completely confusing. If you expect it, you'll enjoy when she warms up and won't worry too much when she goes cold.
It's tempting to get into a mode of catastrophic thinking -- that each time your wife goes cold you worry it will stay like that forever, or "oh boy, this is it, she's gone!" That leads you to panic and overreact. This is a roller coaster, and there will be very dramatic highs and lows. The best thing you can do is try to stay near an emotional baseline. If the WAS bounces between 10 feet up and 10 feet down, the LBS tends to go 25 feet up and 25 feet down in response. Your goal is to go 5 feet up and 5 feet down instead. Take the long term view. Easy to say, hard to do, but if you know what to expect things get easier.
Thanks guys, it helps but I still wonder if I'm doing the right thing right now.
Thanks guys, it helps but I still wonder if I'm doing the right thing right now.
You are not alone in wondering if you are doing the right thing. I believe, if you are standing for your marriage, you are doing the right thing. Just remember in the end you only control yourself.
There are so many variables, so I try to look at it from the standpoint of not doing more harm. Not pushing them further away. It seems to take the pressure off a little.
Thanks guys, it helps but I still wonder if I'm doing the right thing right now.
She's being snippy with you, sounds to me like you handled it fine. When our spouse is crabby, if we can carry on any kind of convo without it escalating into a shouting match then it's a victory
When our spouse is crabby, if we can carry on any kind of convo without it escalating into a shouting match then it's a victory
Amen.
For me the more I feel I am detaching the easier it is to not let the hot/cold affect me. It is easier to keep a PMA around my w. I also am really seeing the irony in her actions and attitude towards me. She wanted out, now she is out and I am still the bad guy. On top of that I am nothing but nice to her.
When you can step back, you will be able to really start to understand why they are hot/cold and angry. I believe it is all about justification for their actions. They believe we are the bad guys no matter what we do.
I question my DBing this evening.
I got home and D8 was in her room crying. I calmly ask W what had happened and apparently D8 had been yelling and having tantrums and even hitting the maid. I just couldn't understand what had happened as she has been consistently good for the last few months, doing what she has to do when she has to do it and behaving well in every way.
W said that it's always that way and that she didn't understand why. She said that even in the past D8 had always behaved badly when I wasn't around but would calm down when I was around. She used to think that D8 was afraid of me but lately, that can't be the reason. I wanted to tell wife that perhaps D8 sees me as a responsible parent while she sees her (W) as a teenager and a buddy, but I didn't. At one point, while I was calmly asking about the situation, W got on the defensive and I assured her that I was in no way criticizing her, that I simply wished to know what the problem was. This calmed her down.
--- She darted out without speaking and I went to make sure D8 had all she needed for an overnight stay.
It looked to me like W was about to leave without saying goodbye and I went to the door to ask her calmly when she thought she would drop D8 off. There we had a "normal" talk for a bit but I could see that W was tense. In the end, I wished her a good gig and walked in without looking back. By the time I'd come back out with D8 W was around the corner getting in the car. D8 then followed on her own.
B/C wife was angry...at d. This isn't about you.
I don't know if it's the distance I've created recently that is the cause of this
it's NOT.
and I'm not sure what it means and how to handle it from here. How should I read all of this renewed anger?
it's NOT 'renewed anger" that I see in this post. Unless you're leaving something out, it's not about you at all.
--- Besides, is this really what I want? What is going on in her head right now? Am I helping my situation or am I making it worse?
Little to NONE of this has to do with you. It's about a d having a tantrum and being difficult.
That happens. It gets frustrating. And while you always seem to read into what d does (always making it about w's choices) the fact is, sometimes kids are just bratty. Sometimes adults are.
Maybe d's previous "great behavior" was to please you and try to fix the marriage and keep the family together, but as she realizes it's fruitless, she gets more frustrated.
OR MAYBE she's just a little girl who didn't get a nap, or had too much sugar or is a little girl with her own backslides....or whatever...
Don't over analyze. It'll paralyze. Don't make it about you all the time Arsene.
You stood up for yourself and need not validate every opinion verbally.
At times, more discussion does NOT lessen tension.
Sometimes you just have to back off and let someone let off their steam - but you get out of the way so you are not burned by it.
Make sense?
[quote=Arsene]
Sometimes you just have to back off and let someone let off their steam - but you get out of the way so you are not burned by it.
Make sense?
Completely agree, Arsene. Let her go through this on her own...
Thanks everyone. You may be right and this may not be about me after all. It's just that we hadn't had this type of interaction in a long time and W's "crappiness" was directed at me, not at D8. I'll let it ride and see what happens next. This still feels wrong though.
BTW, I had a great time at the birthday party last night. Stayed out til 3 am. It had been a very long time since I'd been out so late. Met lots of new people who actually seemed interested in pursuing a friendship with me. Three of them actually asked for my number before we left and we made tentative plans to hang out.
The birthday girl was very happy to see me there and although we hadn't been great friends in the past, we ended up having a good time and some nice talks. It did feel a bit weird as everyone there were born in the 80s and 90s but it still was a lot of fun and I'm looking forward to a repeat of this type of event, especially because I didn't think about my sitch the entire time I was there.
Great to hear that you had fun and met new people, Arene.
Keep it up and build momentum!
Thanks KG, I'll definitely try. I'm not one for going out that often but I could do with a night like that once a week. Cheers!
Short Interaction with W again today as she dropped off D8. A bit of spewing again over getting the car for a few days. I had to calmly tell W that we could just talk about this and that it didn't need to be a problem. She eventually calmed down.
I then went to practice my guitar and W eventually left. D8 ran pass me to her room with tears in her eyes. I let her for a bit and went in to comfort her. At times like these, I resent W for hurting our D8. None of this had to happen. She is being selfish and it's hard to keep on loving the person she has become.
There was also another issue over W getting D8 again on Sunday when it had clearly been agreed that she would be with me. We'd planned to go and get her new hamsters (the ones W got her died after a day and the cage has been sitting there empty since then). Initially, W said she couldn't take D8 because of her concert (the big gig) but today, they were talking about her picking D8 up. I mentioned that D8 and I had plans already and there D8 said that we could always get the hamsters on another day. That hurt me a bit, I have to admit.
The issue was not resolved and later, I got a text from W telling me that D8 really wanted to watch her play and that unless I had other considerations she thought it would be ok.
I don't want D8 to become part of some power struggle between me and W. I just wish she stuck to what she says, or at least agreed to talk about it in person with me instead of making plans with D8 without running them by me first.
My W's gig in on a Sunday night. By her own admission, she will start playing anytime between 7 and 9 and since it's a big billing, I'm sure she'll want to stick around and meet people. Who's going to take care of D8 while she's on stage? How late will D8 go to bed that night? Will she be ok waking up at 5 am the next morning to go to school?
D8 stayed with W last night because she wanted to see W play. Today was a school holiday so staying up late was fine. It turns out W dropped her off at friends' instead of taking her with her to her gig (D8 told me about it). So D8 spent the whole evening with the friend's kid while W was working. I'm sure D8 doesn't mind but I hate that now W tells me again that D8 wants to watch her play.
I just sent W a text telling her about my concerns re: who's going to take care of D8 while W's working (as opposed to last night's gig which is in a small cafe, Sunday's gig is an outdoor gig and a major production with a big crowd expected) and how late D8 will go to bed as it is a school night. I did say that if W really wanted to see D8 on Sunday she could during the day but I thought it would be better if she missed the concert. I also mentioned that W is probably not going to want to leave early after her gig. I also said that D8 had seen her the night before anyway (even if I now know that she hasn't). I then asked her what she thought.
I still haven't received an answer.
I think everything you said was fine, except for the part about " D8 already seen you the night before anyway" It might be just me but I would find that kinda hurtful. I wish I didn't have to share my children at all. Yes she choose this but i just found that comment kinda rude.
I'd definitely make shour you know who is watching your D8! Not much would suprise me these days. She may be intending in just having her sit by herself.
I think everything you said was fine, except for the part about " D8 already seen you the night before anyway" It might be just me but I would find that kinda hurtful. I wish I didn't have to share my children at all. Yes she choose this but i just found that comment kinda rude.
I only mentioned that because that s what she d said the night before, that D8 wanted to see her play, yet she ended up at a friend s house. Btw, still no replies to my text.
My W finally replied. Her tone seems much nicer.
W-I'm Ok either way Arsene. Please talk to her gently about it cos she was really excited about it. Take care and let me know about it. Gdnite.
Me-Ok W. She'll be fine. Thanks. Good night.
I miss talking to her. I guess the same way the affair is like a drug to the WAS, each positive encounter with them is a drug to us. This is probably why we need distance to help us detach.
each positive encounter with them is a drug to us. This is probably why we need distance to help us detach.
Bingo...
Stay at it, Arsene - distance and detachment WILL help you feel better. You deserve to feel better.
I miss talking to her. I guess the same way the affair is like a drug to the WAS, each positive encounter with them is a drug to us. This is probably why we need distance to help us detach.
That is PRECISELY why, Ars. Great observation!
Starsky
Yes, a really good drug with a badhangover if we're not careful.
Keep working on you Arsene. Glad you had a great time at the party and made some new peeps.
Cheers!
My gig went well last night and I met a few people I'd known from my toastmasters meeting. They were surprised to see me performing and suggested I do it at toastmasters events. I was also invited at a Christmas celebration at their house in December.
On another topic, D8 talked to me this morning. She basically told me she thought her mom was now an alien. She said it's like she went to space on a spaceship and when she came back she wasn't the same person. She said she liked the other mom better. She told me that her mom didn't look happy. She was always sad or serious lately. I told her that I understood how she felt and that I also missed the old mom. I asked her to be patient and strong and to not give up on her mom.
It's difficult for me to hear this kind of talk from an 8-year-old kid. It just shows how perceptive they are and therefore how much affect this situation might have on them.
I'm glad you were praised for your performance. Good for you Arsene!
I think there's a movie with that title, My mom was abducted by aliens. Your daughter is smart!
Ok. So I m doing this distance thing to help me feel better yet, after a week of it, I still feel like crap, and now to top it off my w and I don t talk anymore. This doesn t look like progress to me. In fact I feel like I ve taken a huge step back. Whatever happened to doing what works? Sorry! I m just venting my frustrations,
Ok. So I m doing this distance thing to help me feel better yet, after a week of it, I still feel like crap, and now to top it off my w and I don t talk anymore. This doesn t look like progress to me. In fact I feel like I ve taken a huge step back. Whatever happened to doing what works? Sorry! I m just venting my frustrations,
I can empathize with your pain, Arsene, but I would submit to you that -- based on your last couple o' dozen posts -- what you've been doing is NOT working.
Detaching WILL feel counterintuitive! Hell, 90% of DBins is counterintuitive. If what felt right in all of our guts was the way to go, none of us would have ever landed on this sad little DB beach to begin with.
You are using your wife and even your young daughter to soothe yourself. Until you learn to self-soothe, and find the will and the strength to DETACH on a consistent basis, I'm afraid you will be forever stuck in this same place. You are leading with your EMOTIONS, and that isn't a recipe for DB success in my experience.
Starsky
Hi Arsene,
Yes we do have to do what works. But in order to do that, what I have found, we have to DETACH first. From what I have learned so far, and witnessed in my own trial and errors, is that I cannot get a clear head when I let my emotions and fears rule my mind and heart. They have to take a back seat to our rationale right now.
I have learned that nothing can happen unless detaching happens first. Every time I have used my GUT or EMOTIONS has only got me further away from my ultimate goal. I spent almost two years doing that before I found this place.
I feel if I had found this place earlier, there would have been much more hope for my sitch. But at least now I have hope for myself.
Keep going Arsene. We are all here for you and we believe in YOU.
Busting.
Thanks, Busting -- you said it much better than I did.
Starsky
Yes Arsne thanks for your support on my sitch....I have times when I feel like I am detached and I feel good and see light at the end of the tunnel and then the wave comes crashing in on me....but I know I have to keep getting up on that board and surfing those waves! It is the only way out....when I am down I realize that I am not
GALing!!! as much as I should be....take care of yourself....
Ok. So I m doing this distance thing to help me feel better yet, after a week of it, I still feel like crap, and now to top it off my w and I don t talk anymore. This doesn t look like progress to me. In fact I feel like I ve taken a huge step back. Whatever happened to doing what works? Sorry! I m just venting my frustrations,
I can empathize with your pain, Arsene, but I would submit to you that -- based on your last couple o' dozen posts -- what you've been doing is NOT working.
Detaching WILL feel counterintuitive! Hell, 90% of DBins is counterintuitive. If what felt right in all of our guts was the way to go, none of us would have ever landed on this sad little DB beach to begin with.
You are using your wife and even your young daughter to soothe yourself. Until you learn to self-soothe, and find the will and the strength to DETACH on a consistent basis, I'm afraid you will be forever stuck in this same place. You are leading with your EMOTIONS, and that isn't a recipe for DB success in my experience.
Starsky
Yup. The hardest thing in the world to do, but it must be done... eventually.
Ok. So I m doing this distance thing to help me feel better yet, after a week of it, I still feel like crap, and now to top it off my w and I don t talk anymore. This doesn t look like progress to me. In fact I feel like I ve taken a huge step back. Whatever happened to doing what works? Sorry! I m just venting my frustrations,
I can empathize with your pain, Arsene, but I would submit to you that -- based on your last couple o' dozen posts -- what you've been doing is NOT working.
Detaching WILL feel counterintuitive! Hell, 90% of DBins is counterintuitive. If what felt right in all of our guts was the way to go, none of us would have ever landed on this sad little DB beach to begin with.
You are using your wife and even your young daughter to soothe yourself. Until you learn to self-soothe, and find the will and the strength to DETACH on a consistent basis, I'm afraid you will be forever stuck in this same place. You are leading with your EMOTIONS, and that isn't a recipe for DB success in my experience.
Starsky
YES^^^^^ so GAL and keep on meeting NEW people....
as for the detaching "not working", um, you've also done the Detaching for...a ....week.....
Come on Arsene...get real. You've heard AND SAID this 10 times...
this is a marathon, not a sprint.
Arsene, we all know how hard emotionally detaching is, and it takes time. A long time. I'm not there yet, and don't know when I'll be there. GALing, praying, and meeting new people help cope, but the feelings are still there. So be kind to yourself, and very patient.
Arsene, we all know how hard emotionally detaching is, and it takes time. A long time. I'm not there yet, and don't know when I'll be there. GALing, praying, and meeting new people help cope, but the feelings are still there. So be kind to yourself, and very patient.
GAL is the hardest part to me in my sitch, so I concur with everybody on here. I do know that not hearing from W is both hard and easier at that the same time. I know that contradicts each other. Everytime I hear from her, my mind starts to float, and I set myself up for heartbreak.
Thank you Starsky. :-)
Arsene, you can do this. Give in to it. Give in to yourself. Let yourself be your own benchmark of comparison and for growth.
GAL is the hardest part to me in my sitch, so I concur with everybody on here. I do know that not hearing from W is both hard and easier at that the same time. I know that contradicts each other. Everytime I hear from her, my mind starts to float, and I set myself up for heartbreak.
Agree. It is so hard, but you are amazing Arsene. And about D8? Everyone is right-sometimes it is just kid behaviour. I have a does everything, please everyone D. When they get into temper mode, we do try to mind read. It never worked with our spouses, so let's not start w/ kids...
I like the alien comparison...that would make a lot of sense in a lot of our sitches
You guys are amazing. Thanks so much for your support and your faith in me. I m going through some changes at the moment. Not sure what to make of the way I feel. I think I need to take some time away from this forum for a bit. It s been stopping me from focusing on gal. I ve become addicted to coming here and reading sitches and postings, which ultimately keeps my mind on my sitch. I ll still check in occasionally though. Thanks.
((( ))) I hope things go well for you.
Take care of yourself Arsene. We'll be here when you get back. (((( ))))
Yes, we'll be here for you, Arsene...
You guys are amazing. Thanks so much for your support and your faith in me. I m going through some changes at the moment. Not sure what to make of the way I feel. I think I need to take some time away from this forum for a bit. It s been stopping me from focusing on gal. I ve become addicted to coming here and reading sitches and postings, which ultimately keeps my mind on my sitch. I ll still check in occasionally though. Thanks.
Well we'll miss you, but I can totally understand your need to take a break. Good luck, hope you're able to get where you need to be quite soon
Regarding your comment "Not sure what to make of the way I feel" I'm going through something similar. Seems like my feelings towards W are growing cold. I mentioned in my thread that she met me at the store to pick up one of the kids and I was quite surprised to notice that I felt nothing when I saw her. I didn't see my W, I just saw some middle-aged woman whose bulging waistline is resisting her efforts to hide it. Not that I have a problem with her physical appearance, but the point is I usually don't "see" her physical appearance, I have an emotional reaction instead. But this time I had none. This is a new development and I've got to figure out what it's telling me.
I'm just mentioning this to let you know that you're not the only one trying to sort things out. This can be so confusing in so many ways!
this is a smart HEALTHY thing to do at times. I had about 4 episodes of taking months off before returning.
For one thing, there's not always benefit to daily updates...it can keep you from seeing the progress you're making and it's as if you're watching paint dry and HOPING it really is...or is it??? You can't always see the forest for the trees...
Second and more important, you can avoid GAL by coming here and thinking you are "doing" something for your m, when what you really need to do for YOU is GAL. And GAL means getting OUT THERE...
Good luck, and keep us posted (esp if you begin a new thread)!
yes arsene have a good break and thanks for the words of support...
Hello everyone. It's very strange to be writing here again. I never intended to be gone for so long (2 years) but I guess life just happened, for one, and for some reasons I couldn't access divorcebusting.com from any connection in this country. Almost as if the website had been banned over here.
Not all ad though, as it forced me to stay away and commit to GAL the way I should have at the beginning.
I wish I could have better, more encourading news for all who had been following me however, after two years of GAL, my marriage is pretty much at the same place it was, perhaps even worse in many ways, but on the up-side, I am now a lot closer to the man I want to be.
I remember reading 25yearsmlc 's extensive list of GAL activities, wondering how one person can do all of these things and looking back at the last two years, I find that I have also pushed the borders of my comfort zone and accomplished things I never dreamed of.
Althought my W is still with her OM, and living in a different city many hours away, her life seems to have gotten worse despite her claims to happiness. At 42, she now lives in a boarding house with her OM, works a lot a small jobs making little money and has only seen our D10 3 times for about 3 days each over the last 9 months. I don't usually contact her except to talk about the kid and the bills and when she contacts me, she still spews venom which I have gotten very good at dealing with. I am always loving and caring towards her but more in a respectful, courteous way one might be towards a parent than as a husband, and no matter what I do, she finds fault with by often distorting the truth, or should I say looking at it from her very own perspective. I still occasionally get affected by it but I no longer show her how it affects me. She is now contacting my friends to find out details about my private life, often befriending people she only met through my online social networks. She asks female friends of mine if we are involved and tells them that we would be a good couple, and such things, but I never acknowledge this behaviour. She is also "secretly" planning to take my daughter away (I know this because she tells my friends and people I work with about it and she asked my D10 if she would like to go live in the other city with her - my daughter said no, that she was happy with me and that this is where her home was, followed by I like daddy's friends better). This of course bothers me a bit, not so much for the fact that my D10 would spend time with her mom but because my W doesn't seem to have any resources to take care of her now so I wonder how she would take care of her if D10 was with her. Perhaps she would like me to send money her way to help which would probably improve my W's financial situation. I've always said that I would like custody but also have always said that I wouldn't fight her for it and that I would never put my D10 in a position to choose between the two of us. I'm just hoping for the best on this on.
My own life has progressed a lot, and I have managed to accomplish many things and to meet many new friends. My social life is very active but other than a short relationship over a year ago (more on this later...perhaps), I am still single and standing for my marriage.
My professional life is very busy as well and I am doing things which I never thought would be possible a few years back. I know co-own a small cafe, I manage a Blues band which is doing very well and plays on national TV weekly. I have taken up salsa classes, I have written a script and produced and co-directed a music video, to name but a few of the things which occupies my life. This has given me the strength to carry on and somehow, I can honestly say that I feel happy in my life. I have managed to resolve my anger issues through meditation and my passive aggressive behaviour is mostly thing of the past. My circle of friends has increased dramatically and I find myself so busy all the time that I have little time to think about my marital life. My daughter is happy, although she misses her mom. We give our prayers for her each night and often talk about the good times we had together. Whenever my W comes around we plan to make her stay here as pleasant as possible and I always make sure that I step back to let them have their own time together, and to my surprise, at times my W will include me in their activities, which I sometimes join.
My focus now is to be the best person I can be, for myself and for my daughter. I have realised that nothing I can do will affect my W and that as long as she is with OM, there is nothing I can do to sway her. I keep the path smooth, and I have mentioned on occasion to let me know if she needed anything. I also do not judge her or criticise her. I try to empathise withher and I realise that being her right now must be very difficult, but that is her own path, and for her to sort out.
I know that not all marriage survive and I am mostly accepting of the fact that mine might not, but until I am ready to move away from it, I won't do anything to make it worse. I stay the course until it is no longer convenient. I am open for love but I am not looking for it. If one day I happen to meet someone I care for I will tell her everything I am living through and perhaps, will then ask for a divorce. Until that day, the paper which is all that is left of my marriage doesn't need to be reversed.
I don't know if I still love my wife, but I try to maintain what is left of our former love in my heart. When I get outbursts of anger in my mind, thinking about what happened (these still happen sometimes)I can usually talk myself out of it and focus on the beautiful things about my W. Most of these thought belong to a distant past but they still help to appease my anger. I've also taken up drawing and when I feel negativity, a draw portraits of my W. It helps reminding me of the beauty in her, and it acts as pacifier. Right or wrong, we each find our own ways of coping.
Thinking back of my days here, over 2 years ago I remember feeling confused by some of the people trying to push their own ways on others, and judging (even insulting) others for dong what they thought they should. I now realise that many people deal with the intense pain by resorting to anger. I feel for these people and if I have one piece of advice for anyone reading this, it's to go your own way and always put love first. When in doubt, love is always the right thing to do. i don't mean by this that you should admit your undying love to your spouse, but that if you don't know what to do, look within your heart and see what love would do. Love isn't vengeful, or blaming. Love never tries to hurt and love isn't selfish. You may not save your marriage but at one point, saving yourself becomes more important, and no matter what happens to my life, I know that I will never make my own story a sad, angry miserable one. I know that in ten years, I will not regret my present actions because doing the right (loving) thing is never wrong.
I hope to be able to access this site again soon to read updates on the people who supported me a few years back. I also hope that my message isn't one of despair. I see where I am now, not as a failure to save my marriage, but as a success in saving myself. In the end, if my marriage is to be saved, I need to be strong enough to be there for my wife. I need to find myself again, and this is the journey I am travelling now.
Love to all.
Arsene
Very inspiring! It is a strong person that can handle the journey you are on. It is really interesting to see that you can find your self and still keep a love for your wife from a distance. Your D must be very proud of you.
Thanks igit. I'm not sure if my D10 is proud of me for these reasons as she is still mostly in the dark as to he details of our separation but I know that she is supportive of my stand, and one of the upsides to my story is that my girl and I are now closer than we ever were (or ever would have been). I am grateful for that, and I am grateful for being the one fortunate enough to raise her.