Should I initiate R talk? - DivorceBusting.com

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Hi everyone,

I started a new thread for this one but feel free to check out my other thread and my sitch.

Now, I've been dark for 5 days, to try to sort our how I feel about all of this and I think I want to initiate R talks with W upon my return from darkness.

The reason for this is that since the separation (which was announced via email while I was on a 2 month holiday back home with D8) we haven't talked about what we were doing and why. When I got back (7 days ago), I told W I wanted to talk about it and she first asked me if it was necessary. She then said that she was ready to talk. This scared me and we ended up avoiding it.

Now what I want to ask her is if this is a Healing Separation, a trial separation or just a preparation for Divorce.

I'd like to recommend we structure this separation and make it a Healing Separation.

http://www.noeticus.org/uploads/Handout-Healing_Separation_Explanation.pdf

As far as I understand this is a working separation in which both partners invest in personal growth to help them build a different healthier relationship.

I also want to give her the above handout so she can have a good idea of what I'm asking for.

Then i want to set some boundaries for that separation.

I want to tell her that this separation should be for 6 months initially and that this can be renegotiated at any time.

I want to set some weekly scheduled time we can spend together as Quality Time and as Family time.

I'm not going to approach the sexual issue at this time. I figure if it comes up we'll see.

I want to tell her that I'm going to seek counseling and will suggest she does as well and perhaps even couple counseling.

I want to tell her that I will not be seeking a relationship with others and will remain sexually and emotionally monogamous.

I will outline our living arrangements which are that me and D8 will live in the house while she lives in a boarding house and she has full visiting rights.

Now, should i do this? If yes, how should i approach it? Should i just send an email with the handout attached and wait to see what she says? Should i bring it up in conversation?
If no, why not? how can I get a sense of what's going on, of what I'm working with?

It's just that i feel powerless right now and i would like to feel like there is understandable structure to all of this.

Thanks for your advice

Talking to her about the R is a bad idea. I understand you need to have some kind of clue about why or what she's doing, but you're asking a blind person why they're blind. From what you've written so far, she doesn't even know.

Instead, I would discuss your D. Who has primary custody? What's her schedule? Are you basically taking care of her? Then you regulate the days and times that she can see her based on YOUR schedule.

Meanwhile you continue to grow and keep things light. Remember it's on her head, not yours. Again, don't have a R talk. It's not going to do anyone any good and I can see in this case, it would push her away.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

Just something that I wanted to note here as a reminder because it is so true. Nothing positive can happen until negative emotions disappear. Then nothing further can happen unless friendship developed. Only then can romance and recommitment occur. As those things happen, growth of self should be happening and most likely is happening. As people come out the other side, they really are better for it, no matter how painful that learning and growth can feel at the time.

Hi KD,

I came across this as i was going through your sitch (it's quite long so I'm not through it yet). It was written in March 2011. I was just wondering if you still felt that way.

Don't know about KD, but I certainly agree with that statement 100%.

Sorry you are here Arsene. You are getting good advice. Give her space, GAL, and do your best to detach. Patience and time are the two keys to DB, IMO. It will take a lot of both.

I hope that you have seen the list of 37 DB ideas to follow. I think that you can find them pretty easily if not.

As to your question, listen to Bond... do not initiate R talk with your W. That is pursuit. Avoid that at all costs, because it is pressure. And... pressure is not going to help your cause. It will only push her farther away.

Keep your head up, stay positive, and take care of yourself. You have a long road ahead of you.

Denver

I think that if she does bring it up(you should not)... It will be a time for you to listen. Do not react to anything she says. I repeat, just listen.

If you are asked a question you don't feel comfortable answering, or you feel your answer would escalate things into an argument, tell her you need to think about it. Leave it at that.

Agree with her on everything you can. Most importantly, her feelings. You can't disagree with those. No one can.

"So I guess what you are saying is that limbo/uncertainty for me is better than to get her to eventually say/do something under pressure, which might end up being final?"

No you are getting the two things mixed up. By not bringing up a R talk, it doesn't mean that you are in limbo. You set a course of how your life is going to be WITHOUT your W in the picture. For example, you haven't stated what your concrete plans are in terms of your daughter. Who is going to be watching her and helping her in school? You set the schedule and tone for the things that YOU have control over.

You don't have any control over what your W does or doesn't do, so do what you can on your own. She probably doesn't even know what's going on with her.

The issue with 'boundaries' comes up when there's someone else involved. Your W doesn't have that going on as far as you know.

I see. Yeah, I guess this state of "limbo" is self-imposed. I have to move one from there myself and take charge of what I can. I'll be living with D8 and taking care of her, taking her to school, helping her and pretty much always be there for her. I am trying to make sure she has as good a home as possible so she doesn't feel the absence of her mom too much. It's going to be difficult for her as they used to be very close, much closer than we are, although after the last 2 months together in my country, I think we've come a long way.

With regards to boundaries there is a possibility that she is seeing her EA again, after 2 years apart. In fact, I suspect that HE is why she chose to live in this city, but i could just be paranoid. In any event, in another talk the topic came up and we agreed not to introduce D8 to a string of girl/boyfriends.

Thanks for the feedback.

Good advice Pulpwood. Especially about agreeing with her feelings. Thanks for your time.

So your W isn't planning to see her D at all? That's something that needs to be discussed. If she isn't, then you need to set up C for your daughter ASAP. She's the one that's the biggest loser in this whole mess.

Sorry MrBond,

The way things are set up is that i will be living with D8 and pretty much take care of everything but i insisted that W got a boarding room in the nieghborhood so she can come around anytime she can. I suggested she come around and have breakfast with D8 once in a while or even come by in the evening for story time before bed.

This is actually the reason I chose to come back to this city because W didn't seem to care whether or not i stayed in my own country with D8. This is so out of character and it makes me really believe that we are talking about MLC rather than WAW.

In my opinion, it's really important for D8 to see both parents as often as possible especially that we had been a very close family and often did things together. If from then on, W decides not to come around, at least I'll have done every thing I could to make it easy. At that point, I will absolutely get C for D8.

I'm now in the process of looking for C for myself and one of my main issued will be to figure out how to deal with D8 in the best way possible.

I agree with you. We all lose but my little girl lost the most and she's part of the reason I'm not giving up on W. I know she's still somewhere in there and I'm ready to be as patient as needed and to work as hard as i can to get our family back together.

"i insisted that W got a boarding room in the nieghborhood so she can come around anytime she can. I suggested she come around and have breakfast with D8 once in a while or even come by in the evening for story time before bed."

Wrong call. You don't make those arrangements for her. You tell her when and where she can meet your daughter and it's up to your W to take the initiative to meet those times. Don't 'insist' that she have any sort of living conditions close to you. That's her issue to deal with. If you continue doing that, your W is going to accuse you of 'controlling' her life. It happens all the time.

"At that point, I will absolutely get C for D8."

NO! The point for you to get a C for your D8 is NOW. Your W is out of the picture. That's alot for an 8 year old to process. And right now you're not processing things correctly to begin with. Put your D's welfare first. Talk to someone about her so that she doesn't become a casualty in this whole mess.

"We all lose but my little girl lost the most and she's part of the reason I'm not giving up on W. "

Forget about your W right now. If a mother can walk away from her child, there is absolutely NOTHING that you say that will convince her to stay. Just concentrate on your D8. Right now you must show her the love of two parents.

Originally Posted By: MrBond

I agree with Bond 100% here. I see some controlling behaviors here Arsene. Keep 'insisting' that your W do this your way and you will see her move farther and farther away from you and your M. Asking to set 'boundaries' for the S is the same thing. You can talk to her about how she envisions the S, but you are in no position to demand or insist on anything. She obviously wants some space and maybe some freedom for herself. You are going to have to let her have it.

Denver

Arsene, you are getting great support so I've been backing off and letting you absorb the advice you are getting.

On this thing about where you want your W to live, I agree with what has been said.

I do want to be clear that, you can still manage the cultural dominant/submissive nature of your W's home country (and ultimately your peers at this time) and still not "force" her or demand she do this or that.

Study the men from the area and how they relate to women and how the women respond. You have known your W long enough to get some measure of where the "balance" might be for her, if she really is pining for her roots and culture.

So now I'm out of a plan. I won't be initiating R talks or making any demands but I feel that after over a week in total darkness (except for a short text from her asking me when i thought I'd come back so she can make plans - to which I replied i didn't know yet, as courteously as possible) I need to do something.
I'm bound to bump into her as she is with D8 now so how do I behave? How do I answer her questions? (if any) In the past she has asked me a lot about my personal growth. If she does, should i tell her what i'm doing or should i just be vague. I know I should tell her about my 180s but what if she asks?

Should stay "dim" when she's around or become the friendly person I had been.
I've replayed a few of our last discussions and at one point i thought she got angry at me for prying into her life, or that she felt guilty (I told her that I didn't think we should bring OM/OW around D8 - at this time I'm not sure there is really an OM and there is not going to be an OW). At the time, her mood changed and she turned away, then I told her calmly, not to worry if there was someone else, that we were no longer together and that it wasn't like cheating. To this she answered angrily that she understood how things were.
I thought then that it was a sure sign that she was seeing someone but now, i'm wondering if she got angry because she thought I was the one with OP in the picture.
Now, after nearly a week of NC (which is a total 180 for me)I just wonder how to come back to earth. Should i dispel her fears if any? Or should I just stay mysterious and kind?
Any thoughts appreciated. I'm going back tomorrow and would like a bit of an idea for my road map.

Thanks all.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

I know I should tell her about my 180s but what if she asks?

This should read :I know I shouldn't tell her about my 180s but what if she asks?

"So now I'm out of a plan."

No your plan is to not engage your W.

"I need to do something."

You are. You're giving her the space she asked for. Start looking up C for your D.

"I told her calmly, not to worry if there was someone else, that we were no longer together and that it wasn't like cheating. "

BS. It is cheating plain and simple. Don't EVER belittle this fact. It will come back to bite you in the butt. You don't want an OM in the picture to confuse your W more.

"but now, i'm wondering if she got angry because she thought I was the one with OP in the picture."

You're mindreading. You can't predict what your W is feeling or thinking so don't even try. Just do what you can for you and your D.

"Should i dispel her fears if any?

No.

Or should I just stay mysterious and kind?"

No. Just be yourself and don't include her in your plans. Imagine her like a neighbor or casual acquaintance.

Ok MrBond but are you saying I should just ignore her questions? Or lie about where I've been(and with whom?). The thing is we are separated but so far, we have been communicating. As i said earlier, she does ask a lot of Qs about my growth and the work I've been putting in. How do you answer a direct question without lying? I mean if a neighbor asks a question, I'll either answer it honestly, be vague or simply tell them to mind their own business. I won't just walk away and ignore it.

With regards to the OM thing being OK, you are right. It isn't. I guess I was trying to validate instead of judge and this came out. When i saw her turn away (perhaps in shame or in sadness) I just had to say something and this came out (mental note: count to 10 before saying anything to W on tricky issues). I'm still working on detaching. That's part of why i came in NC for a few days.

So after a week apart with NC, I should just get there and say:"Hi there! Hope everything went well. How's D8 doing? Anything I should know? Ok Bye"

Point taken Kd,

The thing is, W always hated the way men behave towards women in her culture and that's a reason why she was still unmarried at 30, when I met her. Most women here marry between 19 and 25 and many of them to men chosen by their parents. W wasn't from that upbringing and always had difficulty getting on with local men. She did have relationships but soon tired of the feeling of being a mere possession.

Denver and Mrbond, you guys are absolutely correct. I have to stop making these demands. I'm in no position to demand anything and besides, it does seem like I'm trying to control her. All I want is for D8 to still have a R with her mom and to make it as easy as possible for this to happen but I guess if W feels pressured into it, she won't be coming around now, will she?

Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

MrBond, don't worry. I'm looking into C for D8 as well.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

I know you might have said all that before but I'd still like different perspectives on coming out of NC.

MrBond, I hear what you're saying but still, specifically, how should I answer these Qs?

I'd welcome anybody's take on the above, especially that I'll be going back in about 12 hours, Thanks

Just finished reading your thread

I was going down this track too and I'm happy for all the folks that gave me a new perspective and helped me pull back from that cliff just a few days ago. From everything I'm hearing, what I tell myself is information gathering and setting up rules for a separation, so I have a sense of solid ground under my feet can be see as (and probably is,okay, okay, IS) controlling behavior.

I'm trying to stop that.

I'm new to all of this so I don't have any answers for you on how to reply to your Ws questions. I know you read my thread and found good advice in there.

MrBond said here to treat your W like a casual acquaintance and you replied with 3 options. Maybe you answered your own question. It's nice she wants to know but it's really none of her business right now. Kind of like a neighbor asking you those questions, either you are vague in you answer or you don't answer at all, change the subject, A LA "how about those mets!".

My 2 cents, for the vets out there please correct me if I'm wrong.

"she does ask a lot of Qs about my growth"

Like what? If she asks you, you just tell her this ... "Going through all this has made me realize that there were things I didn't like about myself. So I decided to fix them to be a better father and a better man."

"and the work I've been putting in. How do you answer a direct question without lying?"

Why would you lie? Are your changes just superficial or for life? She has to understand that your changes are for you and for life. Or else she's going to be afraid to go back to the same old crappy situation she believes things to b.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

You are getting it. Bond is dead on correct here. IMO, if she asks you about personal growth, just respond vaguely... "I'm learning a lot from all of this" ... and leave it at that... for now anyway.

Denver

Thanks Lilly,

I guess you are right. I've already figured out three ways I can go. I guess it's just up to me now.
The thing is, they say to go with what works and so far, the friendly approach seems to work. All I need to do is make sure that I don't put any pressure on her and that I do none of the pursuing behaviour.
I'm not sure what she'll make of my week-long NC or how she's been taking it so I'm going to look for some signs, positive or negative to figure out how to proceed next.
Friendly on arrival worked. How did NC work? It did for me )and it was meant for that). It allowed me to figure a few thing out and to (hopefully) manage to detach a bit more than i was.
I was hoping for a few more comments to get different perspectives before going back but I think I'll stick for what works for now and adjust if need be.
I'm off in a few hours so I guess time will tell.

Thx again Lilly. Hope tomorrow goes well for you.

Originally Posted By: Denver_2010

MrBond and Denver,

Thanks for the words. The changes are for me and I'm convinced of that, Mrbond. I guess I'm just torn between doing what I have always done with her, which is to be open when she starts a conversation, or to be vague and evade her questions.

With regards to "leaving it at that", my guess is she would show great interest and say:"Really so what exactly have you learned?"

Originally Posted By: MrBond

If she asks you, you just tell her this ... "Going through all this has made me realize that there were things I didn't like about myself. So I decided to fix them to be a better father and a better man."

To this she's likely to say:"Really? what have you discovered? What are you doing to change them?" When she asks like that, my answer can hardly be taken as pursuing, right?
I mean, if she initiates this talk (which she has in the past in our FB correspondence) Is it ok to come clean and give her the details she asks for about what I'm doing to improve myself?

Thx every one for your advice.

Hi Arsene - don't let insecurity about whether you're doing the tactics of DB right cause you to lose who you really are. Hopefully you're not a liar, so don't start now. If you need to role play in your head how you're going to handle a direct question, do it. Practice things like, "I have plans with friends, gotta go." Or tell her where you're going, but keep your answers short and vague.

If she's very interested and asking questions about what you're doing to improve yourself, I think that's a positive sign. Just don't expect her to believe your changes aren't manipulative tactics to get her back, or that they'll stick. Don't expect any kind of positive result from what you TELL her. But you can answer her questions. I like to think of it like how you answer a little kid's questions about sex, you answer exactly what they asked, and don't add more detail than they asked for.

My H and I had a conversation this past winter about MC where he said he hadn't seen any point in it and it was a low priority. I shared the value I had seen in it and what I was working on as a result. For example I had learned things about myself I didn't like - that I imposed my viewpoint on others without respecting their own viewpoint, that I didn't communicate as clearly as I thought I did, and that working with the counselor was helping me learn how to improve in these areas. Since H hadn't specifically asked me, it wasn't so great that I offered this info, but these are the kind of changes I'm hoping over time he sees are consistently different in me.

So in my opinion, I'd say if she's asking, it's ok to answer her questions honestly.

Best,

Hello Adinva

I see what you mean about talking to her a bit like you talk to a child. I can answer her questions directly but just keep it at that. I just don't feel right about becoming aloof or unresponsive to her questions. In my view, questions show an interest and I'd like to show her that I'm open to discussion. That this aspect of our old relationship is still there no matter what (and even improved), and that if someday, she decides to open up that she knows she can still trust me to listen.
Obviously, I try very hard not to be too hopeful about all of this and to take it for what it's worth. Words.
And if some of this backfires on me, then I'll step back and stop doing it, right?

Thx Again.

""Really? what have you discovered? What are you doing to change them?" When she asks like that, my answer can hardly be taken as pursuing, right?"

Stop over-analyzing everything. Look, you're never going to be able to get an answer for everything she's going to or not going to ask. Just be yourself and be genuine.

Yeah, MrBond. I feel like I'm over-analysing everything as well. In the end, like you said, I just got to be myself and if this isn't good enough then, as long as it's good enough for me it'll be ok. I guess I'm just afraid to make some major no-nos which might aggravate the situation further but bottom line, she's gone so how much worse can it get? That's what I have to accept. Once i do, it should be uphill from then on(with a few bumps I'm sure).

Thanks all. I'm off now so wish me luck.

Cheers!

Well, here is an update on my sitch. I got back to the house after she'd dropped D8 to school. She was back in bed and got up to greet me. She smiled as I arrived and it was overall a good feeling all around.
We had some chitchat about D8 and how she managed in her first week at the new school and how she'd been at home with W. Then, as expected, the talk turned to me and since it was friendly, i did what worked in the past and was honest with her. I don't think it was wrong but i have to admit that I probably said too much. Nonetheless, she was very receptive and agreed with lots of what I had to say and was very encouraging, but she never offered anything about herself (which i didn't expect). We then went around town together to do some errands and had an overall great day, the 3 of us. It was almost like the way we'd been. When she left, to go to work, she gave me a nice hug which i returned and that was it. Or was it?
I'm actually having 2nd thoughts about the day. I got to get my head on straight and I'll get back to you.

Hi Arsene-

You are getting some excellent advice!!!! I like the comment below by adinva.

�don't let insecurity about whether you're doing the tactics of DB right cause you to lose who you really are. Hopefully you're not a liar, so don't start now. If you need to role play in your head how you're going to handle a direct question, do it. Practice things like, "I have plans with friends, gotta go." Or tell her where you're going, but keep your answers short and vague.�

I do that all the time. I just had a dreaded �financial talk� over the phone with W. Just prior to the call I mentally rehearsed my �gameplan� for the call. My mental rehearsal went something like this.

Open the call with some brief chit chat about the kids, remain calm, make sure to have a caring yet confident phone demeanor, do a good job listening and validating, stick to business and don�t argue or be confrontational. Yet I need to be prepared to respond to any curve balls that might be thrown my way. Oh yeah, don�t forget to end the call first.

Talk about brain overload!!!! I see why it�s important to rehearse these things. THAT�S A LOT OF CRAP TO REMEMBER!

Thanks Roughenough,

I think I got good advice but I'm not sure I was wise enough to put it in practice. Like you, I did have some sort of "game plan" but I think it fell apart the second she opened her mouth. I feel like a drug addict who found an old stash minutes after promising himself he'd go clean. I don't think I passed the DB test. I'm still going over the events of yesterday and I'm going to write my thoughts soon. I was just wondering if anyone had a link where I could learn about Cake-eating. I think that's what happened yesterday. I fell like an old fool.

Originally Posted By: MrBond

But do it in a way that is not pursuing, pressuring or being a pushover! LOL!

Bond is right. Listen man, this stuff is hard. You're going to make mistakes. IMO, the best way to approach it is this:

1) Mainly just listen to your W and validate her feelings. The less that you say right now, the better.

2) At the same time, have a positive mental attitude and always act 'as if' you are happy and light. No one wants to be with someone who is depressed and in the dumps.

3) When you do engage your W in conversation, after you have listened and validated, try to be the one who ends the convo. Also try to be the one who ends the convo even when it is not R talk.

4) When asked a direct question, be truthful, genuine as Bond said... but be direct in the answer.

The thing that i think many of us get into trouble with is we start talking too much. We get into a lot of trouble when we are the ones doing the talking. JMO.

Denver

Thanks Denver. I read you loud and clear. I'll be back soon with update. Boy I can't wait to start C. I feel like I'm falling apart. Cheers!

Cadet gave me the visual of putting duct tape on my mouth. Totally helped me remember to STFU.

Well, these are my thoughts on what happened when I came out of NC a few days ago. As I mentioned, W was all smile when I got there and we had R talk where she asked many Qs which I answered. She got emotional and held my hand, I got emotional too.

She told me how hard it was to find work these days (it�s the Muslim holy month of Ramadan and all the bars are closed) and how she wanted to start busking (playing on the street for small change) but her friends advised against it as they say it is selling herself cheap (she really is a great singer). To this she answers that she needs the money. I have to tell you that in this country, street performers and not well seen and are I small step above beggars. We talked about our financial difficulties (I haven�t worked for three months because I went to visit my family in my own country) and how little money we had left.

She said she had an appointment to go try a small scooter she�s thinking about buying to get around and said she was thinking of selling the car. This came as a surprise because we�d discussed that in the past and agreed not to sell it as it is a means for us to do stuff with D8 (camping and other trips). Also, this car was bought by her dad 30 years ago and we all love it. It�s an old beat-up jeep which came to her when her dad died 15 years ago. Her dad had loved it and we put a lot of work on it ourselves. We travelled throughout the country with it. In my mind, selling it would only be a temporary fix, and I�m not sure when we�d be able to get another car. She said that she couldn�t maintain the car because it was too expensive so I volunteered to help with that. The thing is, she works until late at night and I wouldn�t want her to go home at 2 am on a small scooter. It is a relatively safe country but nonetheless, women out at that time of night are thought to be prostitutes and are sometimes the victims of self-important idiots who think it�s their right to judge and punish sinners. In my opinion, her personal safety is more important than any DB.

Now the thing is, I had decided to try my hand at music for a living, since it had been our original plan before I left for my country. I told myself, why should I give up my dream because she acts this way? This had been a shock to her when I�d announced it because she had thought I�d go back to my old job (teacher) and make decent money to take care of all the bills. As it turns out, if I try music, I won�t be making that much money either (but I�d make enough for D8 and myself to have a good, simple life) which means that W would actually have to contribute. We counted that she�d need to pay about a quarter of her wages to help out (I�d be putting at least 3 to 4 times that much). This would end up being a real burden to her as musicians don�t really make all that much (I myself was planning on doing a few private lessons on the side to help supplement the income). This means that she probably would have to take on students and take ANY gig which comes her way. As my W, while I was n salary, she only took the ones she liked and used the rest of her time practicing her voice, guitar and harmonica (which is a full time job in itself) but now, she�d have no time to grow. This is not why I decided to do this but in a way, I thought it might make her realize more quickly, the life she is walking towards.

But now, after hearing how bad her situation is/will be. After her wanting to go busking and sell the car, I told her I would try to find a job so I can help (as a foreigner, my earning potential is much higher than hers � about tenfold). She said I didn�t have to. That things would work themselves out, but that she thought it might be a good idea just in case.

After that we ended up going to look at the scooter anyways and had a look at a few houses for me and D8 (our house is actually rented till next March) on my new (2nd hand) motorbike. W and I did a lot of touring on motorbike in the past and always had a great time so it was nice to be on a bike again with her. I don�t know how she felt but I have to say that it felt really nice to feel her holding on to me as I accelerated. We had a look at a few houses and drove around until it was time to pick up D8 from school.

After that, we spent the afternoon together and had a wonderful time, laying in bed (in the room I�m renting until I find a place), all three of us and laughing and joking like in the old days. Eventually, at 5 pm W had to go as she was working that evening (she�s a singer) and D8 started to cry which broke W�s heart. Before leaving, she gave me a nice big (loving?) hug which I returned.

The funny thing is, as soon as she left, I got thinking and felt like I�d been �suckered�. The next day, she didn�t call me but called D8 (W had gotten her a cheap pay-as-you-go cell phone �for emergencies�) and I had no news other than that.

This morning, we had a parents� meeting at school to which we�d discussed her coming because I don�t speak the language that well, and she didn�t show up. When I got home with D8 after the meeting, W was home. She was cordial but didn�t mention the meeting until D8 asked me about it and I told her that I hadn�t understood everything. W then said �Oh, you should have told me, I could have come. But I thought we�d decided that you�d go by yourself.� I told her that, No, we hadn�t and that I thought she was going to be there but that there was no harm done as I managed to get the info through some of the other parents who speak English.

She then spent the day here with D8 and every time we were in the same room (since we�re in a boarding house it�s difficult not to be), it got very uncomfortable. At times, we�d just sit quietly without a word being exchanged until I�d just leave and go to the bedroom to play my guitar. I probably should have found an excuse to leave the house just to get away but I had nowhere to go (the few friends I have here were all busy) and I guess, I was(Argggg! I know!!!) hoping for another days like we�d had before.

W and D8 just left to go visit one of her friends, I made sure to be out of the way. I didn�t want to be anywhere where she might try to hug me. I feel like she probably does it because she thinks I expect it. Besides, she kind of got what she wanted from me now so I don�t expect any signs of affection until times get tough again.

I�m ready to detach. I just need to know how. It�s difficult now as I realize I�m still in denial. I still can�t understand why we�re not together.

I tried to get DB/DR through a friend who went to Singapore but she didn�t find them. I don�t know if I can have them delivered here (courier is not reliable at all) so I was wondering if there was an ebook version of them that I could buy online and download.

I�d love to hear any advice/new perspective (I know, I didn�t really take it the last time it was given but I�m awake now)

Denver, I started reading your sitch and I�m so glad things seem to be going well for you. Seeing the way you were at the beginning made me think a bit about the way I feel now, so I guess there is hope. It looks like in the end you did well. What kind of music does your W sing?

Unbidden, thanks for the idea. I think I�ll try that next time.

MrBond, I�m sure the words �I told you so� are on your lips and rightfully so. I think I f@#$ed up. I feel drained. I can�t wait for the C appointment next week.

I went our while W was out with D8. Just acting "as if". I didn't want her to come back and find me where she'd left me. I put on some new clothes I'd gotten recently and made myself look good and just left. I now realise that having been away from this city for a while (we lived in another country all of last year)I don't really have many friends left here. Most of the local friends we had are mainly hers and the few friends I have here were all either out of town or busy so i just drove around town on my bike. I went to a gallery and sat in a park for a bit, I then went to a cafe and tried to think about how I should do things from now on. Put a lot of thought on my 180s and GAL ideas. Even went online on my phone and read a few threads on this site about detaching.

Around 9:30 pm i decided to come back home, figuring W and D8 would be back by now and they were. They were playing "snakes and ladders" on the bed and asked me to join them for a game so i did. I was cheerful and so were they and we had a good time. Still noticed that W was distant so I matched her mood and I tried to be kind and distant as well (with W, not with D8). Nonetheless, we had a good time. W then told D8 a story before bedtime while I rubbed D8's feet and then, W's phone rang.

She usually answers it in the room but this one, she went just out of the room (for 10 seconds) and came back in. Then she laid down next to D8 and hugged her but i sensed the mood had changed so I left the room and went to have a bite to eat in the living room, trying to be as casual as possible. She then came out of the room and went to take a shower, came out and started dressing up from the clothes she'd worn during the day (shorts and an old T-shirt) to some of the clothes she used to wear to go out. Then she put on some make up and used mouth rinse, all the stuff you do before going out on a date, and she took her merry time as well. By that time, I was waiting by the door to let her out, again, acting as casual as i could. When she walked out the door I said "Have a nice night out" and as she walked away, she said "Are you ok?" I said "yeah!don't I look ok?" and closed the door on her, again as casually as possible.

Now, my heart is in pain. I hurt so much just to think of it. I need to move on. Get away from her. She's poisoning me and I think she's liking it. I need help.

I fell like I have to do or say something. I'd like to tell her how I disagree with her having an A and how she's being selfish to flaunt it in my face. I want to tell how no matter what she claims i did or didn't do in our M, that at least, it was not consciously whereas what she is doing is intentional and just mean. I want to tell her that she's not going to find herself in the arms of OM, she's just going to lose herself again, and maybe even lose me in the process. I want to tell her all of that and so much more... I want to tell her that... I love her no matter what and that I choose to stand by her, by our M, even if it's the most painful thing I have ever done.

Of course, I won't tell her any of this. Instead, I'm not going to tell her anything. I'm going to live my life and rebuild my family, my pride and my self-esteem. I'm going to detach myself from the situation so that I can be calm and kind when she is around and so that I don't feel angered or depressed by her every action or word. I'm going to carry on living for myself and my little girl and become the person I want to be.

Here are some issues I need to work on:

!. I need to control my anger - I have been doing very well with this over the last 2 months since I started meditating once a day. I might need to do it twice a day after today's relapse.

2. I need to stop using guilt as a means of manipulation - I've made a huge effort to try to catch myself before saying something which might cause guilt (sometimes to manipulate and sometimes just to make a point).

3. I need to stop criticizing and judging people - Again, I've made huge efforts to catch my words and my thoughts as they occured.

4. I need to become more patient - I try to predict instances when my patience would be tested and once I'm conscious of it, it's easier to handle. I also focus on my breathing if I get in a situation where I could become impatient.

5. I need to stop expecting people to behave by my standards - in fact, I think I just need to stop having expectations - easier said than done but nonetheless, I've been trying to do and say things without hoping for an answer or action in return

6. I need to talk less and listen more - So far, I totally failed at this one.

7. I need to learn to feel compassion and empathy - meditation has helped in this one. I also try to see the other person's perspective instead of judging or forming an opinion.

8. I need to learn generosity - I try to give as often as I can, which doesn't come naturally for me. I think I've been doing well on this one, especially considering how little I've got left.

9. I need to stop feeling sorry for myself - and that needs to happen now! GAL will help. Getting a job will too. I feel very alone in the city where I live now. I need to rebuild my circle of friends. This will happen once I get a job and start some classes (I've been thinking about Tai Chi lessons as well as lessons in the local language)

10. I need to be kind to all - This is something which I try to implement every hour of everyday. Whenever I am around people, I smile at them and engage them. this is a bit difficult as I don't speak the language very well but it's helping me learn it and people respond very positively. It feels good to do this.

It seems like such a tall order and I'm sure a lot of this will come up at my first C session next Tuesday.

I've been reading a lot on this site and it's been helpful but I could also use input/feedback from others. Thanks for being there.

Originally Posted By: Denver_2010

Bond is right. Listen man, this stuff is hard. You're going to make mistakes. IMO, the best way to approach it is this:

1) Mainly just listen to your W and validate her feelings. The less that you say right now, the better.

2) At the same time, have a positive mental attitude and always act 'as if' you are happy and light. No one wants to be with someone who is depressed and in the dumps.

3) When you do engage your W in conversation, after you have listened and validated, try to be the one who ends the convo. Also try to be the one who ends the convo even when it is not R talk.

4) When asked a direct question, be truthful, genuine as Bond said... but be direct in the answer.

The thing that i think many of us get into trouble with is we start talking too much. We get into a lot of trouble when we are the ones doing the talking. JMO.

Denver

Hi Denver,

I think I'm about half way through your threads and it's comforting to see that you felt the same as I do at one time. Last night, after W left, I just broke down and couldn't stop myself from crying and I almost woke up D8 at one point. Since I'm now in a boarding house, it's hard to find a private place to let go of these emotions.

Regarding your advice up there, I realised that I can't listen to my wife as she doesn't really talk about herself. She sometimes asks me how I'm doing but never volunteers anything about her life.

About the positive attitude and the Act "as if". I try to do that but I must be very bad at it because the other day, even D8 asked me why I was sad or upset, then wife also asked and I went on the defensive telling them I was fine. Last night as well, I was trying to get W out as soon as possible but it's like she was enjoying seeing me suffer. Like she was putting this on just for me. Taking her merry time with her make up and mouth wash and making sure she got a last glimpse in the mirror before leaving. I wanted to go and leave her to it but i had to let her out of the boarding house and of course by then I couldn't act anymore. She won that round as well.

Seeing her so strong and me so weak makes me sick. I know it's just an act for her too. I've seen some sadness in her eye here and there. I know she's struggling too. Why can't we just be honest with one another and tell each other how we feel?

When it comes to "talking too much", you got that right. I need to learn to STFU. the thing is if we're in the same room and I dont say anything, we end up having one of these very long uncomfortable silences which eventually leads me to leave the room, almost with my tail between my legs. Another victory for W.

My feeling now is that 2 years ago, when she started the EA, I managed to stop it at that. Then I insisted she left the band (EA was/is with the drummer) and told her it was a deal breaker. so now, I think she wants to see what she missed out on and that's why she came back to this city. In fact, she probably contacted OM while i was away in my own country and i suspect that it was the catalyst for the separation.

I guess it doesn't matter anymore anyways. The fact is that I'm in this sitch and I don't know if I can manage on my own. For some reason you seemed to be getting a lot more support back then than I do now. I feel like it takes forever for me to get any kind of feedback on this thread. I know that at the beginning you switched thread a few times out of frustration. I'm wondering if i should just start a new thread myself.

Maybe it's DB's way to teach us patience.

I also got a lot of good info from Sandi2. i found it really helpful to get the insider's perspective on things. I wouldn't mind if she gave me a bit of her no-nonsense wisdom. On this I was wondering if you think you W was MLC. After reading loads on the subject, i really think mine is. Does it make a difference?

Thanks for your help.

I've been trying to get through with my day and it's hard t stay focused. I've got these great resolutions but I'm finding hard to keep them.

The main thing I feel right now is anger. So much anger, and pain. I tried meditation this morning but i wasn't able to get my mind off things. I'll try again later on today.

The thing that worked is when I did my exercise. I pushed myself hard and channeled my anger that way. The thing is, having not slept at all last night, my energy level doesn't allow me to do this all day.

A friend's given me some sleeping pills so I'll try tonight if i can't fall asleep. I don't really want to though but I need to get some sleep or I won't last.

I've been forcing myself to eat even though I'm not hungry. It's a good thing I've got D8 to take care of. It forces me to take care of myself.

W text this morning, overly happy (Good morning Arsene! Can you tell D8 to charge her phone? Thx. Have a nice day!). I now realise that she got D8 the phone so she wouldn't have to go through me to talk to her. I guess that's good, for all three of us. I replied as cheerfully as her (Good Morning W. It's charging now. Have a nice day!)

I'm going to a mall with D8 and some friends of mine(with kids)to set the kids loose in a playground this afternoon. There will be some people there i don't know so it'll help me avoid R talk with my friend. This is good. I need some time off.

If anyone has a trick to help me sleep that doesn't involve pills, I'm listening.

I hope someone answers soon. I'm desperate for input on my sitch. This hurts much more than i thought it would. I think I just crossed the line from denial/bargaining into full on anger. I've got to regain control of my emotions. I can't let the kid see me like this. She already heard me mumble stuff (not very nice stuff about W) but I'm pretty sure she didn't hear what I said. She didn't look like she did. I got to regain control. I feel like all this time wed been going up the roller coaster track and all of a sudden the ground disappeared from under me. I got my stomach in my throat. My face is tense from fighting off the tears.

I'll come back later. Please talk to me someone!

Just got back from the mall. it was great to see D8 playing with her friends. I felt almost normal talking to people about something other than my sitch, although after a while, I was aching to do so and my heart tightened. I just couldn't focus on the people present. Nonetheless, I met someone new and it was nice to talk about different things. He's into motorcycles and had one similar to the one I used to have so I actually escaped for a while and had an hour of relative peace, talking about motorbikes. He's also in the same business as me (teaching) and he might be able to throw some work my way so overall it was a good afternoon. My friend was also there and I wished we could have had some time alone to just let it out. I feel like I've been poisoned by a secret I can't share with anyone. There is no one there to listen to me. I feel so lonely right now.

It's funny how you go from a moment of strength to total pathetic self-pity without seeing it coming. I don't know what caused the change in me this afternoon but it happened. Almost like wanting that cigarette at the appointed time soon after you quit smoking. Is that what it is? Am I addicted? If so, what is my addiction? My W or the pain I feel? Is this part of the withdrawal symptoms I'm feeling right now? If that is the case, then there is relief in sight, at some point in the future. Hopefully sooner than later.

I still feel anger towards her. Towards her insensitivity last night. But then again, isn't it just a game we're playing? Last night, I, myself left looking very nice, wearing a new T-shirt which showed off my newly acquired, MLC-diet body. And on my arrival, she actually commented positively on it as well. Was she just getting even? Playing my game? If that's what she was doing, she definitely scored a point there. She's much better at this game than I am and I bow to her expertise. Maybe i should just get out of the game while it's still time. While I still have a shred of sanity.

No. I will stand. Because my love in unconditional (thanks Denver for your inspiration). I will love her, silently, from a safe distance. Far enough not to be subjected to the venom of her moods but still close enough for her to see the light when the time comes, if it comes. Belief is a strong emotion. I guess that I might no longer be in denial but I'm not sure if I'll ever reach acceptance. Our R was a good one. The best I'd seen in my life, among friends and family. I used to consider myself blessed for it, now, I feel like I'm damned.

In the tradition started by Denver here is a song which hits the mark at this moment and which, ironically, my W used to sing when we were in our duet. I would hope right now, to put a bit of humanity back into the person I love, that it's the way she feels at this moment.

I�m just the pieces of the man I used to be
Too many bitter tears are raining down on me
I�m far away from home
And I�ve been facing this alone
For much too long

I feel like no-one ever told the truth to me
About growing up and what a struggle it would be
In my tangled state of mind
I�ve been looking back to find
Where I went wrong

Too much love will kill you
If you can�t make up your mind
Torn between the lover
And the love you leave behind
You�re headed for disaster
�cos you never read the signs
Too much love will kill you
Every time

I�m just the shadow of the man I used to be
And it seems like there�s no way out of this for me
I used to bring you sunshine
Now all I ever do is bring you down

How would it be if you were standing in my shoes
Can�t you see that it�s impossible to choose
No there�s no making sense of it
Every way I go I bound to lose

Too much love will kill you
Just as sure as none at all
It�ll drain the power that�s in you
make you plead and scream and crawl
And the pain will make you crazy
You�re the victim of your crime
Too much love will kill you
Every time

"Queen"

Arsene,

You are driving yourself crazy by over analyzing and mind reading about everything your W says or does. Believe me, it will get you no where. You can't make sense of crazy.

Put your focus on where it will do the most good, YOURSELF and your D.

The only thing you can control in this sitch is you. Leave your W to her choices and the consequences of those choices.

Work on you. Build your self esteem. A confident man is very attractive. I agree with you that having a job will go a long way toward that. IMO taking a teaching job now doesn't necessarily have to mean that you can't pursue your dream of being a musician. It may take some time but at least you will be more financially secure as you do so.

Your D8 is the most important consideration in all this. Do your level best to never be negative about your W to your D. She needs to be secure in the fact that both parents love her. There could be times you will have to fill in the gaps that your W may leave concerning your D. Live in the now. The past is gone and no one knows what the future holds. Take care of yourself and your D in the very best way possible.

Moving forward doesn't have to mean moving on. You have the choice to keep the path home lit and smooth for your W if she wakes up enough to realize what she's done and wants to move towards home, and if you decide to let her run to catch up.

Strive every day to be the kind of man only a fool would leave.

Hang in there. I promise this does get easier if you let it.

Trying to regain strength anyway I can. No comments on this site so I was chatting a bit with a good friend online, and of course, she tells me to wake up and get out of this relationship.

I don't know anymore. What if I'm wrong? What if I'm just telling myself stories because I can't accept that she simply walked out on me because I was no good. But that's not true!!!

I have always been a good husband. Maybe I didn't know exactly how to love her but then again, all of this started a few years back, while I was going through a depression. Neither of us knew what i was going through and I guess she thought I'd changed permanently to an angry, criticizing, judgmental, manipulative monster. Maybe these traits were in me, in fact, I am sure they were/are but my depression brought them to the forefront and I gave her a few years of not so good attention. She said I pushed her to the point where she was always afraid to let me down, to disappoint me. I can see that. I can work on that. I wish she'd engaged in a discussion instead of simply giving up on us, on our great little family.

And now this. The quasi-certainty that there is OM (women don't use mouth wash to go out with other women - she's never used mouth wash before) is now consuming me. WTF! I suspected it so why is this so hard to take? Who was i kidding?
Besides, as I said before. the worst thing that could happen already did. She left me. I have to move on. GAL. 180. I've got a list of things I want to do and I guess I'm working on them but with taking care of D8 full time, I've only got her school time (7-12) to do stuff. Besides, not only has my circle of friends in this city gone down since i last lived here but today i lost my cell phone with all my contact info.

When it pours...

Is that me feeling sorry for myself again? Sorry about this rambling on. I just need to let it out, somehow.

Anyone???

Arsene,

I hope you saw my reply to you above your latest post. Also I would recommend that you read the resources at the top of the MLC board to see if any of it rings true as to your W's present actions.

You essentially do the same things whether your W is a WAs or is in MLC. It just sometimes helps to know what you're dealing with. If you determine your W is in MLC just know that it will be a long journey for both of you.

Hi SA,

Thanks so much for being here. I hear what you're saying about focusing on myself and D8. I understand all of this.
You are right. i need to start focusing on what i can control and stop thinking about W. I need to detach myself emotionally. I guess that I'm starting to feel like that now but I feel like it's motivated by anger at the moment and i don't want to feel anger towards W.

I also agree with what you're saying about getting a teaching job for now. I've already approached my old school and I might be good to start in October. That's still a few months away though so I'll need to do something before then.

i do intend to "keep the path home lit and smooth" at least for as long as it doesn't interfere with my sanity. I guess I'll be re-evaluating things every so often but for the moment, I know this i what I want.

I do hope it does get easier

Thanks so much for your words.

yeah, I've read that stuff and IMO, she's MLC. In fact almost a text-book case.

Arsene,

It's OK to feel angry. Let it wash over you, but then process it. It doesn't do you any good to suppress it or stuff it down. If you do, at some point it will come bubbling up. Just deal with it so you can start connecting the dots.

Just remember to vent here and not to your W.

You will find that there is a gift in all this. It is time. Time to make yourself into the man that you were meant to be. Time to get back to the Arsene you were before you got married. Time to do those things you always wanted to do, but couldn't because you had to worry about what someone else would think about it. Y

What was it about Arsene that attracted his wife in the first place? How far away are you from that Arsene now?

Interesting development I think. Here is a bit of back ground first.

Before leaving for my own country with my daughter, we had over 4000 USD in savings which was to be used to start our new life as musicians in the touristic area of the country. Some of it was also going to be needed by W to live for the few months me and D8 were away (keep in mind that in the country where I live, the average salary is about 150 USD per month and a house rents for $ 2000 per year).

Now, for some reasons, by the time I got back, the $4000 USD was down to only $2000 USD, which seemed to me a bit extreme. It would appear that W has been using a bit more than I had expected. Having said that, she has been with me for nearly 10 year and probably found it difficult to go back to the local way. This is going to be a problem for her in the future as well as she probably won�t make more than $200 USD per months. When we were together, our monthly expenses were around 600-800 USD per month. I never told her that I thought she�d spent too much considering the situation I came back to. I guess I just didn�t want to aggravate things and beside, I knew she�d paid for the school and some flights around the country for herself and me and D8 when we arrived.

Now, when I got back we�d had a discussion about it when she told me she could transfer the 2000 USD in my account if I wanted it as this was to be used to get a house for D8 and myself. I should have said ok, but again, in order to show her I trusted her, I said that it wasn�t necessary and that I trusted her.

Later, after I came back from my one-week NC, she told me that she had no work this month (During the Muslim holy month of Ramadan all the bars are closed) and that she would need some money so she decided to only give me 1500 USD and keep 500USD for her expenses this month. Again, as this was after all OUR money, I agreed and when she again offered to transfer the money to my account, I laughed and said that maybe I should or else she might come back in a day or two and it would be down to 1300 USD and then 300 USD. We were having a good day and the mood was light so I thought nothing of it.

Other background info which I should mention is that I brought back a guitar which I purchased 2nd hand in a pawn shop in my country for about 400 USD and I bought a motorcycle when I got back for about 1000 USD using money my parent gave me to set aside for D8�s education (I promised W that I would pay it all back as soon as I started making money � and I will). To justify these purchases, I had given my own acoustic guitar to W a few years ago and had planned to bring one back from my country for myself when I left. W knew about this plan and agreed, especially that we were supposed to work as a duet at that time. As far as the motorcycle is concerned, I needed transport since I�m leaving the car to W. I probably could have gotten something smaller and cheaper but the motorcycle is part of GAL as I love to go touring and I intend on starting to do it again.

Just now, after what she did last night, she sent me this text when she saw I was on Facebook:

�HI Arsene
I saw you are online. I need to explain to you about money situation.
Last time before you left to (my country) there was 3400 USD (it was actually 4000 USD) roughly in my bank account. Then I needed some for me to live for about three months (it was actually 2 months) plus the travelling here and there. I paid for D8's school which cost about 750 USD including uniforms. I paid for your flight back from (city of arrival in country) to (city where we live) roughly about 100 USD. I paid a bit for fixing the car etc. What's left with me now is 2000 USD so last time we talked I told you you can take 1500 USD and leave me with 500 USD so I have some money. I was really crossed when you said it will go down again to 1300 USD and then 1000 USD and then eventually only 300 USD.
I am not the one buying guitar and motorcycle so please don't put this on me I really feel disappointed that you seemed to be selfish and thoughtless when you told me that.
Or maybe you have your explanation
Take care and good night�

IMO, she feels guilty (about using too much money? about being insensitive last night? about missing D8�s school parents� meeting?) and is launching an offensive to shake me. Now, I�d like to know if I should respond and validate and how much I should say (actually what I should say would also be appreciated).

As I explained before, W never really tells me how she feels about things so this is a unique moment where she actually talks about her feelings so I would like to make the best of it.

Originally Posted By: seeking answers

How do you process your anger? I know i need to let it out and as you said, this site is a perfect punching bag but what I mean is how do I process it so I don't end up with resentment? My guess is it involves forgiveness and I know I can do that, but is there something else I can do to get ride of the anger I feel when I think of the way she behaved last night?

Originally Posted By: seeking answers

What was it about Arsene that attracted his wife in the first place? How far away are you from that Arsene now?

That guy looks pretty far right now. My self-esteem has taken a huge drop and my faith in life, the universe and everything has pretty much vanished.

Nonetheless, I hear what you're saying and that's what I need to work on instead of getting myself all excited over something which is still just a maybe and which I should accept as out of my control anyways.

Thx SA. Any comments on the new development? My w's FB text which looks like a trap. I actually like that it doesn't affect me at all. It's almost laughable (especially the bit about me being selfish and thoughtless)but I'd still want to use this opportunity to show her a bit of the new me (or the me I'm working on). I know I'll need to validate her feelings but how should i do it. I'm kind of new at this as she doesn't often talk about how she feels.

How about thinking about the FB text a bit more until you see her side of things. While you argued in parentheses several of the smaller details, you didn't comment on the main point she made, which is that she itemized the money she spent and it was primarily on necessities for you and for D8.

That you "jokingly" (or passive aggressively) suggested to her face that you thought she'd drain the account some more, she took offense at.

I think the response that would validate her feelings would be along the lines of "my attempt at humor was offensive to you, I see that and am sorry" - if that's something you could honestly say. What do you think?

I have learned to have no expectations as far a my H is concerned. I take nothing for granted anymore. Therefore, his actions or non-actions very seldom affect me. I do validate and thank my H for anything nice or thoughtful that he's done and choose not to call him out on negative behavior. Very little affects me personally and my kids are very good at throwing truth darts to let him know if he's done something that affects them.

For me, I recognize my anger, think about why I'm angry, and work it out for myself. I accept what is, is. I can only control me. I try to handle it in a way so that I personally have no regrets. Yes, forgiveness does enter into it, but you need to deal with it yourself before you can forgive.

If you think what your W has written is a trap, make sure you stay away from the snare. Validating what your W says or feels doesn't mean that you agree with her. You're just accepting that she has a right to feel as she does. You can validate her by saying that you are sorry she feels that way, or that you can understand why she feels as she does. You could also say that you don't remember something quite the way she does when she starts rewriting history. Do more listening than talking. If something she says stings, take a look at it and own your part in it. Fix what you don't like about yourself.

She may be feeling guilty about her spending or she may be angry that you spent the money she was hoping to spend. Don't waste your time over analyzing it.

I see by your sig line that you believe your W has been in MLC for a couple of years? What makes you think that? If she is in MLC please protect your finances because they are notorious spenders. Since your W has left you and you have primary custody of your D, you would be wise to separate your finances so your W does not have free access. You are enabling her new life. She needs to find out what life would be like not to have Arsene in it. A person will not miss what is always there.

You sound like a good and caring man. DBing is many times counter intuitive to what you think you should do. It's hard to get the concepts down and detach. Once you do, you'll find this gets much easier.

You need to read DR as soon as you can. I know getting the book is difficult for you. Remember not to let your W know you're on this site as many WAS would view it as pressure to get them back. It's for you only. Also, when you get the book remember to keep it out of her sight. Otherwise, she'll think all your changes are just tactics.

Make those changes for you because you want to become a better you.

Over on the MLC board at the top is a chapter on MLC out of the DR book. Have you read it? It is the 4th thread down from the top. It may help you determine if W is in MLC or not.

Thanks Adinva and SA,

I didn't comment on the itemization of the money because I know that she did spent the bulk of it on necessities and although I still think that she's used much more than she should have, I didn't see the point of raising the issue just to have her run on the defensive.

This is part of my 180s. To stop criticizing all the time.

I agree with the response you suggest and I can honestly say that.

I have thought about her text and I can see how she might see it that way. I'm wondering if I need to justify my purchases to her or if this would simply launch us into an argument. In any event, this is what I plan to send to her.

"Hi W,

Thanks for your message. I can assure you that I never expected a breakdown of your expenses as I always trusted you would do what is best.

I can now see how the attempt at humor in my comment was offensive to you and I am sorry about that. It was never meant that way.

With regards to the guitar, before leaving, I�d planned to buy a guitar if I found one and I didn�t see the need to change my plan because our situation had changed.

I bought the motorcycle so you could have the car to allow both of us to be more independent. The reason why I got this particular one is to help me move on by going on motorcycle trips again. I was also thinking about possibly trying to write that proposal for a motorcycle show, as we�d discussed in the past.

Looking at the situation now, I can see how it might look selfish and thoughtless of me to do so but I did these things to help me move on and finally give you the space and time you so desire at the moment.

Thanks for expressing the way you feel about this. I hope you have a nice day.

Take care"

How does this sound? I hope I can have an answer soon because W is spending the afternoon with D8 and I'll see her tonight. I'd hope to have answered before meeting her.

SA, I need time to reflect on your comments re" anger and MLC. I'll comment on this as soon as I can.

Thanks again for being here.

Advina,

I just thought about this a bit more and I think you are right. It was passive aggressive behaviour on my part. I think I've used that all my life to make people feel guilty about things. It's another one of the 180s I'm trying to take. The problem is, I don't always catch myself at it. It's something I'm planning to talk about in C this week (my 1st session).

Should I address this in my reply? Now that would really validate how she felt. She was totally right. I've always used humour that way. I really have to turn this around.

I could add something like: "I never meant it consciously but I think that you are right and that this might be part of the behaviour I need to (and will) work on."

Thank you so much. This is a breakthrough for me. I never noticed before how I did this.

I think your answer is quite good. I'd like to see you put yourself in her shoes more, without pride and ego coloring your thoughts. Then you may be able to answer your own questions.

You can learn a ton from this website even when no one's writing to you.

Yes Adinva, Thanks. I have been reading a lot and learning a lot from other's threads as well as from the resources. It's just that some lessons are harder to swallow than others.

In my present situation, in this foreign city, I do miss the interaction and getting direct input on things. As I said before, my circle of friends around here is very limited and I fear I'm already getting to the saturation point with some of them.

Thanks for being here.

Make more friends here. Find others with similar sitches that you can relate to and comment there, and they'll come comment for you. It used to make my day when I saw a new comment on my thread!

Your goal should be to wean yourself from direct support (should I say this? what does it mean that she did that?) and take the larger lessons you learn here to begin answering your own questions and standing on your own two feet.

Basically, GAL. Work on your own issues. Detach so her emotions are hers and yours are yours. Become an even better you. Most people get to this website after their marriages are beyond the point of no return. You only control yourself. DB can help you save yourself and it turns out that's more important than saving your M. No one thinks so when they first get here, but it's true.

Thanks Adinva. Point taken. I hope to get there soon. I'm looking for a way right now to get my hands on DB and DR as well as a few other books that have been mentioned on this site.

I'm also starting C tomorrow and I'm looking forward to the experience.

I have been commenting on other sitches where I can and all of this reading is helpful as well.

It's just that I feel like I spent my life being the pillar, the one to be relied upon and suddenly, the ground has been taken from under my feet. The things I considered the most stable in my life are fading before my eyes and instead of feeling determination and strength, I've now got uncertainty and fear dictating my every move. I know I have to get over all of this and figure out who I am. In there lie the answers to my questions.

Although I realise that just journaling on this thread is very therapeutic, I also get excited when I see someone writing in my thread. It gives me the sense that someone is there, that I'm not going mad, talking to myself.

Thanks for reading me. I hope I get a chance to be where you are soon. I started reading your thread and you seemed to be so strong from the beginning.

Originally Posted By: seeking answers

For me, I recognize my anger, think about why I'm angry, and work it out for myself. I accept what is, is. I can only control me. I try to handle it in a way so that I personally have no regrets. Yes, forgiveness does enter into it, but you need to deal with it yourself before you can forgive.

This is something to work on. Thanks.

Originally Posted By: seeking answers

I see by your sig line that you believe your W has been in MLC for a couple of years? What makes you think that? If she is in MLC please protect your finances because they are notorious spenders. Since your W has left you and you have primary custody of your D, you would be wise to separate your finances so your W does not have free access. You are enabling her new life. She needs to find out what life would be like not to have Arsene in it. A person will not miss what is always there.

I think so because it's felt like a two year PMS. It started with EA which I discovered without looking for it (I never would have expected that of her and I always trusted her implicitly). Over the last few years, she's often acted so out of character, so unlike the person she used to be and then she would become herself again. Lots of indecision, on big issues but also on very unimportant issues. Changing her mind constantly. This behaviour was more frequent in the beginning but when we relocated to another country last year, it became less frequent. It basically went from every two or three days lasting 2-3 days to eventually being only a few times a months for 12-24 hours.

Up to a few months ago when she would tell me:"Thanks for sticking with me" and when she decided to move back to her country where we (her and i) would try our hand at playing music for a living (for me it was a scary move because I always like to play it safe - but I agreed anyways and was getting excited about it)I thought that we were finally coming out of the tunnel and then, 2 weeks after my departure (Trip to my own country with D8). She emailed me to tell me she wanted to separate.

She's is also turning towards spirituality (but superficially) and altruism (she wants to start a school for less fortunate people) and I read somewhere that Female MLC often included these.

And of course, her spending habits have greatly increased. Over the last few years, she often talked about wanting to die before she gets too old and loses her mobility. She has also been worried about her appearance (even though I always told her I thought she was hot)and started using hair fall tonic and wrinkle cream about 2 1/2 years ago.

Does this sound like MLC?

BTW, my finances are safe. other than the money left in her account for the house, everything else is either gone or divided.

Originally Posted By: seeking answers

You sound like a good and caring man. DBing is many times counter intuitive to what you think you should do. It's hard to get the concepts down and detach. Once you do, you'll find this gets much easier.

Thanks SA, I really hope it does get easier.

Originally Posted By: seeking answers

You need to read DR as soon as you can. I know getting the book is difficult for you. Remember not to let your W know you're on this site as many WAS would view it as pressure to get them back. It's for you only. Also, when you get the book remember to keep it out of her sight. Otherwise, she'll think all your changes are just tactics.

I'm working on finding a way to get the books right now and no, I will not show her.

Originally Posted By: seeking answers

Make those changes for you because you want to become a better you.

Yes, I really do think it is important for me. No matter what, I don't want to be the person I've become over the years. I long to be a better man.

Originally Posted By: seeking answers

Over on the MLC board at the top is a chapter on MLC out of the DR book. Have you read it? It is the 4th thread down from the top. It may help you determine if W is in MLC or not.

I'll have another look. Thanks for being here. I really appreciate it.

Well, I've been out all day, looking for work and getting some things settled. I also didn't want to be around because W wanted to spend time with D8 this afternoon so i just went to a park and started reading the only English self-help book I could find in the local book store. It's actually bang on though. It's called US, by Lisa OZ. It's about making lasting changes to ourselves and our relationships in general.

Towards the end of the afternoon, I finally decided to go ahead with the answer above with a slight change. I rehashed the whole answer over and over and decided to leave my justifications for buying the guitar and the bike. One of the reasons for this is that otherwise, I felt like I was just being a pushover. She sends a text that criticize me and I agree with everything she says, two days after she goes out with OM, displaying the sensitivity of an icicle? Justifying my purchases, in a small way allows me to stand my ground somehow.

Nonetheless, as the time to get back approached, I felt anxiety and started getting the shakes and a heavy heart. I was not looking forward to seeing her, considering the way things were the last time I had seen her. I was afraid I would act "as if" and overdo it or simply that I would end up showing how I really felt.

In the end, things went well and I behaved with what I might call "just the right amount of poise". I had brought home some food in case D8 hadn't been fed and casually invited W to join us. It turned out D8 had eaten but W hadn't and she accepted, but seemed reluctant. I then told her she didn't have to so she said that if she didn't have to she wouldn't.(?)I just said "OK" and left it at that.

I then proceed to talk to D8 about her day, and made sure she'd done her homework and put her things away. W and I talked about a few things Non-R related and I always kept it short and left the room when the discussion was/seemed done.

I kept myself busy doing stuff around the house that needed doing and when the time came for D8 to go to bed, I asked W if she'd tell her a story, which she agreed to do. I then left D8 and W in the room and went to play my guitar in the living room (Usually, I would stay in the bedroom during W's story time).

When D8 was sleeping, W came out and asked me if i had received her text. I said I had and that I had replied. I thanked her for sharing with me and I asked her to just read my reply.

Then I got up to signify that she should go and she let herself out (I'd had a key of the front gate done for her to avoid a repeat of 2 nights before).

During the whole time, I think I displayed courtesy, kindness, a bit of humour (nothing passive aggressive) and most importantly, "detachment".

I feel much better and I hope I can keep this up.

Hi Arsene- I�ve been following your sitch. Adinva has given some very solid input. She�s been very helpful for me as well. I also have an 8 year old. I know there�s never a good age to subject a child to this bs. I don�t know about you but our 8 year old is really struggling with all this. How�s your D handling it? It just breaks my heart.

Adinva talks about GAL, it�s so important. I exercise, hang out with friends and family however the second I have some down time, my mind automatically starts thinking about my sitch, it�s like it�s always with me and it�s so hard to shake it, how about you?

I am just so glad I found this site. I sometimes think about what I would be like if I hadn�t found DB. I know I would be in a worse spot, if that�s possible

In a way, I would probably be lost, I would be saying all the wrong things, My odds towards R would be reduced, I would have a harder time working on me, the list goes on. Anyway, just wanted to see how you�re doing and let you know that it seems like you�re doing a great job at this.

Rough

Thanks for your words Roughenough,

I sure don't feel like I'm doing a great job most of the time. Like you, my sitch seems to ambush me every so often, when I least expect it, when I'm trying to GAL, out of no where, I feel my stomach tighten and physical pain in my heart and then I get on the edge of tears, and can't focus on what I was doing anymore. Sometimes, if I'm out, i look for a public toilet and lock myself in just to let it out. Sometimes it feels better, other times, the pain stays. I also have a hard time acting "as if" but I guess this is work in progress.

This site is also saving my butt. The whole "counter-intuitive" thing is just that. Counter-intuitive. Tough stuff to maintain but every day I come here and read sitches and advice and remind myself what I have to do. Now i just need to get myself a copy of DB/DR.

I'm sorry to hear about your D8. Is she with you or with your S? Mine is with me and she seems ok, when W is not around. We have a good old time and this is bringing us closer than we ever were. I'm always respectful of W and try to put on a brave face but D8's no fool and often tell me stuff like:

Her - Are you thinking about mommy?
Me - Why do you ask?
Her - You look sad.

When she asks, or when she feels sad and talks about her mom, I tell her to be strong and to be patient. I tell her that her mom needs some time to herself right now because she needs to work some things out. I also tell her that I too, miss her very much and that I love her very much.

She also keeps a good eye on me. Sometimes, when she senses that there is a situation where I might lose it (not R related) she'd tell me that maybe I should go do my meditation (something I started 2 months ago to 180 my anger issues).

The problem is when W is around, suddenly D8 starts acting overly happy, talks non-stop, talks "baby-talk" and stops listening to what I say. She tends to be more rambunctious.

She sometimes has nightmares, usually about her mom leaving her forever and although this has stopped since I've been back in the country, she used to have twitches where she'd scratch her arms uncontrollably or hit herself when she felt upset. A few of her comments also show that she sometimes feels guilty for this and I often reassure her that this has nothing to do with her and that her mom and I just need a bit of time alone.

I'm really thankful for Avinda's support. She's been an angel through the last tough few days and her advice was invaluable.

Thanks for dropping by Roughenough. It's great to be able to share this burden with someone who understand what I'm going through. I'll look in on you soon.

Cheers!

Arsene,

Have you made arrangements to get your D in to counseling yet? From the behavior you describe, she is definitely showing signs of being in distress about the sitch. Keep reassuring her this has nothing to do with her and that Mommy and Daddy love her very much.

You sound like a great Dad and are doing what you can for your little girl, but she sounds like she may be having abandonment issues. For that you need to get her some outside help to deal with it.

Did you have a chance to read that chapter on MLC yet from MWD's DR book? If you have, did anything about your W's actions seem to fit? Since there is no clinical diagnosis for MLC, it's up to the LBS to determine whether they think it's MLC or not.

Hang in there, you're going to be better than OK.

Hi SA,

Yeah, I read a lot of stuff last night and I'm convinced that it is MLC and today just confirmed this even more.

First of all I had my first session in C and it was 4 hours long. A lot of stuff came out but i think that the poor C (Local person) was overwhelmed by the amount of knowledge I brought to the table (thanks to DB). She of course agreed to the course of action I had in mind (DB) and asked me to keep a journal of the progress I do on my 180s. I'm seeing her again next week.

I have to admit that after talking about all of this for 4 hours and crying my eyes out as new stuff came out, I actually felt pretty strong, and it's a good thing because I was about to be tested big time when i got home.

I'm still not sure where it stemmed from (although I have a theory)but on arrival, W told me she wanted a divorce.

Surprisingly, as i was fresh out of C, I didn't fall apart. I kept my head on and calmly asked her why, since she's already told me she wasn't going to seek a divorce.

She said she'd changed her mind and rambled on about not knowing how to act, about there being many gray zones and about her needing some sort of closure. She also said how difficult it was when interacting with people. She never knew what to say to them and how to answer their questions. She asked what was the point anyway since we weren't even friends anymore. She said that it would be best for both of us and that it would allow me to move on.

To this i replied that I understood how she felt, that I also often didn't know how to behave in her company or what to tell people. I explained that when ever I tried to behave normally I felt she was uncomfortable so i pulled away to give her space. I also said that I was fine and didn't need this to move on. To this I added that I personally didn't want a divorce and that it really didn't matter what we told people.

She then angrily brought up the issue about our financial discussion and how it hurt her when I said the things I said. I asked her if she'd read my reply (which she had) and validated her feeling and explained again how she actually helped me figure out this behavioral problem in me and how I was trying to sort it out. To this she said she didn't believe me. That these were just words.

Then she went on to say that it didn't matter, and that a divorce is what she wanted. She then added that we were totally incompatible and that there was no way she would ever want to be with me again.

To this I said that i wasn't sure what was going on because we had never actually talked about the reason behind our separation. I told her i didn't know anything about her situation, about how she was doing. She then told me simply that she was living in a boarding house and that she was seeing someone. I asked if it was the EA from 2 years before and she said yes. I said (gently) that I didn't agree with that and that I thought it was wrong but that there was nothing i could do about it. I then asked if OM was also seeking a divorce, she said she didn't know but that it didn't matter. I also asked her (again gently) to please not repeat the events of Saturday night when she got ready for her date in front of me. I told her that I felt she was being insensitive. She then jumped on the defensive, practically denying that she was getting ready to go on a date, simply saying that she had been sweaty all day and that she needed to shower and change before going home(of course i didn't ask why she put on make up and used mouth wash if she was simply going home - or why she felt the need to defend herself since she'd just admitted to seeing OM).

I asked her if she was talking to someone, if she was actually doing what she said she'd do and try to figure herself out. To this she answered that she was fine and didn't need any help. Then she asked why i didn't want a divorce and what I was hoping from this. She reiterated that she couldn't see herself ever coming back to me.

I told her I didn't want a divorce but I told her I'd need time to think about it. To this she agreed. And I left for a walk (to ball my eyes out). The whole conversation went very calmly and I never showed, my true feelings. Again poise is the word.

Can someone explain what happened? Why this sudden urge to get a divorce? What should i do about it? It feels to me that refusing would be seen as pursuing. I thought I might just take the time to check out divorce laws in this country and not bring it up again until she does.

What should i do now? Does this mean that what I'm doing is working or not working?

Originally Posted By: Arsene

In the tradition started by Denver here is a song which hits the mark at this moment and which,

LOL! I could put together a soundtrack for my sitch!

Originally Posted By: Arsene

Hi Denver,

I think I'm about half way through your threads and it's comforting to see that you felt the same as I do at one time.

I did. Hell, I felt it as recently as May. But I think that most everyone here felt that desperate feeling, at least at the beginning. It's awful. But it is normal. And what it tells me is that you love your W.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

Regarding your advice up there, I realised that I can't listen to my wife as she doesn't really talk about herself. She sometimes asks me how I'm doing but never volunteers anything about her life.

Just wait for it. I'm fairly confident that it will come eventually. In the meantime, there is nothing wrong with having light convo with your W about other stuff in the world... or about your D.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

About the positive attitude and the Act "as if". I try to do that but I must be very bad at it because the other day, even D8 asked me why I was sad or upset, then wife also asked and I went on the defensive telling them I was fine. Last night as well, I was trying to get W out as soon as possible but it's like she was enjoying seeing me suffer. Like she was putting this on just for me. Taking her merry time with her make up and mouth wash and making sure she got a last glimpse in the mirror before leaving. I wanted to go and leave her to it but i had to let her out of the boarding house and of course by then I couldn't act anymore. She won that round as well.

Act as if... have a positive mental attitude... fake it til you make it... and all of the other sayings that you will find here.

Man, you have to figure this one out. The one thing that I did pretty well, most of the time, throughout my situation was to act as if I had a positive mental attitude when I was around my W... and a lot of the time, I was faking it!

I would always remind myself of this...

Who wants to be around someone who is sad and depressed???

Do you? Of course not.

Don't be THAT person... be someone that EVERYONE wants to be around!

And actually, if you fake that stuff enough, it becomes much more natural... it puts you in a good mood.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

I know it's just an act for her too. I've seen some sadness in her eye here and there. I know she's struggling too. Why can't we just be honest with one another and tell each other how we feel?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but she has told you how she feels. She wants a S.... AND, you've told her that you don't. Sounds like you guys have told each other how each of you feels.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

When it comes to "talking too much", you got that right. I need to learn to STFU. the thing is if we're in the same room and I dont say anything, we end up having one of these very long uncomfortable silences which eventually leads me to leave the room, almost with my tail between my legs. Another victory for W.

Again, nothing wrong with light convo when around W. Just stay away from R talk. When you are away from her, don't initiate convo at all. Let her come to you.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

My feeling now is that 2 years ago, when she started the EA, I managed to stop it at that. Then I insisted she left the band (EA was/is with the drummer) and told her it was a deal breaker. so now, I think she wants to see what she missed out on and that's why she came back to this city. In fact, she probably contacted OM while i was away in my own country and i suspect that it was the catalyst for the separation.

If this is true, her feelings for OM will have to be resolved before there is any chance at true reconciliation.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

For some reason you seemed to be getting a lot more support back then than I do now. I feel like it takes forever for me to get any kind of feedback on this thread. I know that at the beginning you switched thread a few times out of frustration. I'm wondering if i should just start a new thread myself.

Maybe it's DB's way to teach us patience.

A good way of looking at it I suppose. I know that i had a lot of the vets take an interest in my situation at times. I will always appreciate that for sure. But, it can become overwhelming. Mostly because, many times, they don't agree with one another. The bottom line is that you have to take what you learn here, the unique nature of your situation that only you know, and do your best.

Only start a new thread when the old one gets to be 100 posts. It won't do you any good.

The way that I usually looked at posting here was that I was journaling. I'd suggest that you look at it that way too. There is no magic potion that any one here is going to be able to provide for you.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

I also got a lot of good info from Sandi2. i found it really helpful to get the insider's perspective on things. I wouldn't mind if she gave me a bit of her no-nonsense wisdom. On this I was wondering if you think you W was MLC. After reading loads on the subject, i really think mine is. Does it make a difference?

Thanks for your help.

Remember that the posters here are not always around. They don't get paid to keep up with everyone. They are paying it forward so to speak.

Sandi is great! I certainly wouldn't hesitate seeking her out here on the board and asking her to take a look at your situation. I think that she can probably be found on the piecing forum or maybe the MLC forum.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

Thanks MrBond,

We are not in D procedures (yet). In fact, W said that she didn't care about divorce papers. So I guess what you are saying is that limbo/uncertainty for me is better than to get her to eventually say/do something under pressure, which might end up being final?

that's my take on it. She's been asking for reasonable changes in you for a long time. You finally seem to be making some of them but now after 1 or 2 WEEKS of being in the same company around each other,

you want to corner her and give her an ultimatum?

Oh I know I know, you'll call it a "boundary". But ask yourself what your real goal is here.

And did you read what the DB books said about this?

Also, fwiw, your whole timeline for this experience, from the few weeks of being around each other, to the "NC" for a matter of DAYS...is such a SHORT SHORT timeline, I shake my head. Remember this-

This is a marathon, not a sprint.

Don't push for answers you don't want,

especially when some time and space and a lot more patience, might have gotten you to your goal.

Thanks Denver,

I tend to agree with the friendship issue as well, although i do find it a scary place to be. I have seen the list of 37 DB ideas to follow and i do agree with all of them, until I go onto "fear mode" (which is often these days).

I guess I was thinking about setting "boundaries" for our separation. I've seen that word kick around quite a bit in DB. I just thought that a well defined separation might work better than just leaving without talking about it. This is very frustrating. I guess this is all what I want, not what SHE wants. And for the time being what i want should be coming from me and not from her.

Um...okay...well, I saw the list of things you want to tell her that you want...I saw a whole lot about what YOU WANT...most sentences began with "I want to tell her I want x"...

how does that sound to you when you read it?

Do you think it makes your changes look real or permanent?

Do YOU think they are?

Are there ways to discuss this without a list of terms that make it look as if you are again dictating to her what YOU want?

She said she's okay not ever getting a divorce.

TO ME-that screams of a woman wanting to know if she can trust your changes.

Her fear is you'll go back to the way things were (and things weren't too good for her or your d w/your past behaviors. Don't gloss over that stuff b/c it's KEY).

But if she could trust that the changes she sees in you-- are going to continue, and that you could grow together and as one, then wow...what a life you could live, together...

I'm suddenly wondering if I'm on the right thread. Is there more than one? I've posted, I THINK, twice on this poster's thread but now can't find my long one...dang.

Oh btw, this is why folks like me need just one thread. I get confused as to what I've said to whom.
Bummer...

Thanks Denver,

It's comforting to know you're around. Again, I can relate to a lot of the way you felt/feel, about marriage and standing for it being a matter of integrity. My standing for my marriage in the face of adversity helps me define the person I am/want to be. I got married for better or for worst, I took the better now what kind of a man would i be if I ran at the first sign of the worst.

I read a book about 10 years ago, just before I met my wife and it changed my life. It's called Conversation with God by Neile Walsh. It's not a religious book but a spiritual one and there's a parable in there that always stood in my mind.

It's the candle in the sun. While in the presence of the sun, the little candle was barely seen but when it became surrounded by darkness, only then was is able to shine its true light and show how bright it was. The darkness allowed the candle to shine and therefore, the candle shouldn't forsake the darkness surrounding it but embrace it for allowing the discovery of how bright the candle really was.

This is darkness which will allow me to show myself the kind of man I am. And although I don't always feel strong lately, I keep telling myself that without this, i wouldn't have begun my journey towards the man I want to be, and in a strange way, I am thankful to my W for this.

You tell me that W and I have already told each other what we want but I also know that I shouldn't believe a word she says. Somehow, what i read from the recent "twist" in my sitch is that she is noticing some of my changes (and yes 25YearMLC, I hear what you say - I do slip quite often but I also have victories and many of the 180s I've done are now becoming 2nd nature) and I think she might be panicking. I sense so much uncertainty in her and a need to run away not to face this situation. I also sense a lot of guilt (and I I've been very careful not to add to it). My theory is that she knows I'm working hard on this and she is now finding it difficult to "monsterize" me.

When I wrote that "she rambled on an answer" when I asked why she wanted a divorce now, I didn't mean it to devalue her but she was really lost for words and scraping the bottom of the barrel for something to tell me. I think she was expecting me to lose it and to start begging or telling her what to do, or judging her or even making her feel guilty but I didn't (at least i hope I didn't). I kept my head (mostly - I shouldn't have mentioned the dressing up incident) and tried to validate her feellings while stating my point of view. When pushed, I asked for time to think about it.

I think the same thing happened with her text about finance. The old me would have been all over her but there, I again validated her feeling, and in fact, agreed with them and used this opportunity to add something to my list of things to work on.

I'm not trying to read too much of all this, In the end, i guess it shouldn't matter whether we are divorced or not. She told me that it was important for her to have closure and to know where she stands. I thought she did but I see that she is confused on this as well.

This and the admission of OM will make things more difficult, for her and for me but at this time, it doesn't alter my decision to stand.

I am still going to go through my 180s, for myself and I am still going to GAL, for myself and my D8.

I am confident that OM will not be a permanent fixture. After all he has already abandoned 1 wife and 2 children and he's a musician who thinks he's pretty hot stuff. He's likely to get tired of a 40-year-old woman and trade her in for a newer model(I, myself, love the classic cut of the older model. I find them a lot sexier and reliable, in the end

). Somehow, I suspect W knows that but the monster in her didn't care for the moment.

I would love some opinions on whether I should go ahead and give her the divorce or resist it as much as I can. I will nonetheless seek legal advice, about the divorce laws in this country and the options available to me because after this bomb, I half expect that she will now go after D8 for custody (maybe not but she definitely knows that would get my attention).

Thank you all again for reading me. I appreciate your input and advice, no matter how hard it sometimes is to accept and to follow.

hi arsene, i love your parable about the candle. thank you for sharing it.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

I would love some opinions on whether I should go ahead and give her the divorce or resist it as much as I can. I will nonetheless seek legal advice, about the divorce laws in this country and the options available to me because after this bomb, I half expect that she will now go after D8 for custody (maybe not but she definitely knows that would get my attention).

What I told my W on December 24, 2010:

"I've told you before that I still love u and still think that we an have a great life together as both a couple and a family. I have not changed my mind on that. But I understand that you are not happy, that u don't feel happy or complete inside. U need to do what will make u happy. By my side, we can be partners and will share everything and we would do anything to help one another. But that's only if we continue as a team. but I won't stand in your way, but also won't help u leave this marriage or our family. I hope that u do find happiness u r looking for. go do what u need to do. You know where I will be."

Hurts to go back and find that sh!t

Denver

Sorry to hijack but damn Denver!!! That was very well said.

Originally Posted By: Denver_2010

Correct me if I'm wrong, but she has told you how she feels. She wants a S.... AND, you've told her that you don't. Sounds like you guys have told each other how each of you feels.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

She said she's okay not ever getting a divorce.

TO ME-that screams of a woman wanting to know if she can trust your changes.

Her fear is you'll go back to the way things were (and things weren't too good for her or your d w/your past behaviors. Don't gloss over that stuff b/c it's KEY).

But if she could trust that the changes she sees in you-- are going to continue, and that you could grow together and as one, then wow...what a life you could live, together...

Actually, please read post #2266866 above . My sitch has just changed dramatically, interestingly enough, just as I was starting to regain confidence and see more clearly what i had to do. Your comments are welcomed.

Thanks

Originally Posted By: roughenough

Sorry to hijack but damn Denver!!! That was very well said.

Wish i could take credit for it, but the framework of the statement I took from someone else here on this board from long ago.

It worked though.

that was my philosophy the entire time. I would not help her end our M. That was her choice, and if she wanted to do it, she would have to do the work.

Bought me lots of time. Which I believe that I used wisely.

@5yearsMLC,

I'm sorry about the multiple threads. I found your long post and went through it, I must admit with pain in my heart and tears in my eyes.

I don't agree with everything you said but you hit the mark on many points. Those I don't agree with I am taking the time to consider, because I'm realising that i don't really know myself all that much. That I spent a lot of my life thinking I was a kind-hearted man with an open mind and a pretty good level of self-awareness while in fact, it looks like I bullied myself through most situations because I was certain I was right and every body else was wrong, and I didn't even notice it.

Thanks for your brutal awakening. Enough 2X4s there to build a house (and hopefully a home)

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

I'm reading through all of your thread and wanted to finish it before commenting. You are certainly in good hands with kaffe Diem...

but there are a few things I don't want to forget to mention so I'm going to go ahead and make a few remarks here before I forget these issues as they struck me...

Originally Posted By: Arsene

Yeah, her family was never very religious either and W isn't too much into Buddhism but she said it seemed the least harmful of the ones to chose from.

What were her realistic theological options in her country? And are you saying, in a way she's really agnostic/atheist

OR that She's searching for a good fit, spiritually?

There are only 5 religions available in this country. Islam, Catholic, Protestant, Hinduism and Buddhism. From what i understand of W's choice, Buddhism was more about self-awareness and a personal spiritual search and she liked that idea. So do I.

She has been quite angry lately with a lot of things which are happening in her country right now re:religion and fondamental groups as well as government not protecting the minorities.

Sounds to me as if she's becoming more intellectually aware of social injustices in her society?

Her anger does not sound personal, so much as the anger of righteous indignation of someone bravely beginning to wake up...

For Asian women in Muslim countries, from what I gathered serving in the Gulf, that's a brave and frightening thing to do...or even think of doing.

Indeed it is

She'd been disillusioned for a long time with the merits of Islam and often voiced her opinion that she doubted it was a religion of peace. As for me, I was never a practicing Muslim so i didn't bother switching as it's just a piece of paper. Only the locals must have their religion on their ID.

Couldn't help but shake my head at that sentence. Politics aside, in our nation at the moment there's a huge debate about border politics and the "border wars" in Arizona. If they only knew what goes on in other countries we might remind ourselves more often, of how lucky we are here.
ANYHOW...

The EA was/is(?) with a local (the drummer in her band) Muslim, married with two Kids and living apart from his family.

I read the thread but don't have a grip on what this "EA" is about. What does she SAY or ADMIT, about him, about their r, and why do you call it an "EA"?

She admitted to having an Emotional Affair with a band member, at a time when she couldn't talk to me because I was going through a depression (neither of us knew that I was at the time). She said that she felt love for him and that some kissing and petting had occured, but not more. Keep in mind that it is very difficult to be an adulterer in this country.

I don't think she has embraced Buddhism although she has read on it and about the concept that nothing matters and we all are one with the universe anyway(which she used as a reason why it doesn't matter whether or not we came back together) but i have investigated it

no offense but now is where you get a small "2 x 4" in Div Busting land.
Seems to me you got way off track of your own path to empathy and being UNcritical in the way you live. You want her to notice your changes but...

do you notice anything critical, condescending or judgmental about your tone here?

[color:#33CC00]Yes, I do.

She seems to be on a genuine spiritual quest that includes increased political awareness and possible activism about her nation's problems...

Most people, especially artists, are on a journey of sorts and it's serious to her. It's meaningful.

But the way I read your words sounded to me as if YOU are judging what you think she has read, your analysis of her reasoning, and then you say you have "investigated it" and that's an odd phrasing if ever there was one.

Just think about it. Food for thought okay?
[/color]

I hear you.
nonetheless and I now meditate everyday. She on the other hand, never put much effort in meditation (she said she tried it a few times but that she could never concentrate and then she gave up)

^^^more judgement by you of HER efforts at Her own religious interest.

You say you did not share the interest in Buddhism that she did,

but You took up meditation??? and b/c you said it helped you,

you claim she also tried it but not really well enough for your tastes...

(SIDENOTE--seems to me, if she had seen genuine marked differences in your behavior - and credited those changes to meditation, she'd have gotten into it a lot more)

REGARDLESS....

when you say she "never put much effort into it" that's you assessing & mindreading & judging her efforts in a private internal endeavor and

since there was a conversation about it, I assume it means you then asked her about why she wasn't getting more out of it, like you say you did...so she had to defend herself...

(the way it struck me was not as if it was a compliment coming from you)

and maybe it is true or maybe not...but so what?

Isn't that totally, exclusively, HER business?

She wants space and less criticism...but it seems she can't even meditate without you grading her.

After telling her what i felt when meditating she said that she tried a few times and couldn't feel anything so she stopped said that she never had the time anyways

although she acknowledged that it seemed to have changed me a lot and I (gently) suggested that she gave it another go (even telling her how i went about it) because it had been instrumental in my figuring myself out. i think she is afraid to figure herself out. She's afraid of what she might find.

So here we have yet more mind reading on your end, and it's pretty much always got a negative spin on it too. Seems You believe you know her most inner feelings even more than she does? Really?

What is it she'd fear finding? Something bad in her? Really? B/C She sounds altruistically concerned with the world around her, she wants to help others less fortunate. She's artsy and sensitive...

You say you are working on not being critical and learning to have empathy for others...

Why not keep the focus on YOU and YOUR GAL and your own personal growth since you admit you have issues of your own...and b/c you are the only person you can control in this life.

You don't get to shape HER and how she lives/thinks/meditates or feels, b/c she's in charge of HER life and you are only in charge of yours, and doing right by your d.

Your efforts will be more productive if you keep the focus on YOU and YOUR WORK...not hers.

Point taken. I hope I am learning

Thanks for the encouragement on the music front. I really hope I can pull this off because it would be a real GAL/180 for me to do it on my own, not relying on her talent to do this for a living.

Your final comment might be very accurate. She has been told over the year (by her sister) that she was no longer acting (her nationality). That she was more westernise. Although this is true, it was never all my fault.

Why Must we assume it's a negative trait for which you wish to avoid blame? It's possible her family sees it as a negative but is it, really?
OR it merely someone changing OR EVOLVING?

Having been a singer in bars for nearly 20 years has had a lot to do with it. Besides, her english is excellent (because of this) and she was often the only member of her band who could talk to Western foreigners. She left home at 17 to go to university in another city, against her mom's will (which is not common in this culture) and I remember her mentioning how she often missed just sitting in a local coffee stand and talking about nothing with locals.

I hope your other posts will focus more on YOU and your work and not all about her and your analysis of her life. You have limited time to correct the course your marriage is on and I'm not seeing the value of this pseudo analysis of her history and it makes it all about her and NOT about what you can actually affect, which is YOUR OWN BEHAVIOR...
I hope so too. It feels like I missed the point all along. That is probably why she now wants a Divorce

She's also started to read books written by influential writers of her country and to write patriotic and philosophical poetry in her language. She also is looking at doing more altruistic work to help the poor and weak in her area. From what I've read, all of these are signs of female MLC.

Wow I must admit, That statement ^^^ irked me a great deal. It just reeks of condescension to me. Maybe it's her hormones????

It's as if you see no value in her Growth, b/c that's what it is. SHE is reading books by intelligent, philisophical, theological works and political influential authors and she is writing poetry...

[color:#33CC00]You are right. Just me trying to pin a label on her to explain something i don't understand which I didn't see coming, probably because I wasn't paying attention.

isn't she a singer? isn't that a good thing?

So My first response is to suggest that You try reading more intelligent, less sexist books that don't call this growth a problem when it happens in a woman. But I realize you are only beginning on your own journey so I'll try to just be constructive here.

Ask yourself this--- if you met a man who was reading great books and stretching his mind and seeking out new faiths, and who wanted to do more with his life, to become more altruistic, to make a difference, who took up causes as he became increasingly aware of injustices around him, and wanted to do more to help others...would you call that a mid life crisis of his? Would you belittle it?

Do you realize that is what you just did when you described your w's efforts and changes?

We both know you Calling it "signs of female MLC" is no compliment.

This is what many in western cultures call an "awakening" in women, NOT an MLC.

This is sprititual and intellectual GROWTH in her but you are making it something negative.

I know, now.

I'm not hearing a single positive in the WAY you describe it, although I myself love what I'm reading b/c I get the feeling I'd really admire her.

I'm sure you would. Deep inside, when I'm not panicking, I do, so much.

To me, A woman's MLC involves leaving her marriage AND her family to take art lessons or drive motorcycles to "find" happiness, a person who acts selfishly...she's not.

She seems to be evolving into a better woman &

that is what happens to mature adults as they begin to want more meaning in their lives,

as they begin to want to change their environments for the better.

And as they disconnect from those cultural or religious beliefs (or people) who prevent or hinder them on their journey...

This evolution in lifestyle and ebb/flow of how we view our world and our role in it, is what makes people who contribute positively to our world, do so.
[/color]
I've told her that all of these things are fine with me and that i would also be willing to partake in this.

When you tell her you are "Willing to partake", what does she SAY to that?

she doesn't care anymore. She's through.

As i said i am not religious but I am very spiritual and environment-
conscious and have always wanted to give back to my community.

Please take No offense at this question but - when did you say ^^^this?

[color:#33CC00]Throughout our married life, but I never acted on it. Git too busy with "life". they were just words

What I read was that you are working on caring about others more.

You want to learn to be kinder and to "Have More compassion for others" and are "trying to have empathy" for people, including those who are different than you. Those are your words.

There's also a lot here about you working on not being so critical and working on your bad temper. You stated that you had impossibly high standards (which is what a lot of critical people say to justify their negative responses...they set others up for failure so they can criticize them.)

I wonder what is it like for you to compliment your wife or d? Trust me I know you love them. But what I'm getting at is what your love language is and what hers are.

Chapman's book "The Five Love Languages" is excellent and reminds us that how we SHOW love and how we RECEIVE love are often OFTEN not the same IN US

and usually not the same in our partners.

My h's love languages are words of affirmation and physical touch. Mine are doing acts of service and spending quality time together. Those differences are not flaws in either of us, but they are variables to work with and to respect.

Those are important flaws to work on b/c they harm others and they harm our r's with others. Those traits do more damage than we care to admit or face...it can be overwhelming to know how deeply we've hurt those we love.

But if we can't admit it, we're not likely to stop doing it.

If a mother sees her child being emotionally harmed by someone, it hurts her to the core. OTOH- if she sees loving interaction between her child and the child's father, it's a moving experience for any mother.

Also I didn't read anything about a spiritual side from you, except you saying you didn't care about religion either way, it was only a paper to you.

Maybe your wife doesn't think you are sincere about this and maybe she thinks it's a tactic to get her to be around you more.

That would be a tactic, and a form of pursuit AND a form of hindering her on her own journey b/c you'd be making it all about you and not about helping others or what she's going through internally.

So, among other things, I'm asking if you think SHE might believe any of this^^?
[/color]

No, I don't think so. It seems to me that she appreciated being able to express herself as she wanted about these issues. We usually had good conversations about books we read such as Conversation with God, or the Celestine Prophecy to name a few.

These things don't need to separate us. This is also why my GAL/180s include the language lessons and also perhaps doing something for my community. When in my country, my D8 was amazed at how there were playgrounds everywhere and i told her that I would try to build something for her and the neighborhood kids when we got back.

This is helping KD. It keeping my mind on the positive. On what's important and helping me to see what i need to do. Thx

It's crucial you keep the focus on what YOU can do. I think building a playground or getting the funds to build one is a great idea. Is this something you can achieve or help create?

Yes. It's a promise to my daughter and to myself

And think about getting that book on the Five Love Languages too, (I think ou said you finally got the Div Remedy book right?)

Not yet but I'm working on it.

Good luck! You don't know how much time you have together but You do have some so, use it wisely.

Last but not least, the simple fact ("simple" as in, not complicated) to remember in all this is that -

your wife must believe marriage to you

can be better/different than before -

or she won't want to return to it.

She fears you'll revert, that your changes are not real or that they won't last if she returns.

SO

Small consistent changes on your end + sufficient time = change she can believe in.

Terms like MLC and WAW make no difference here. IN fact I think the terms deflect from changes the LBSer needs to make.

This has been going on for 2 or more years by your count and by hers, probably a lot longer. It took her telling you she's out of there, for you to finally get it and say "OMG" and to try and change. The more you argue with her or challenge her choices, the more she'll defend them.

So what are YOU DOING TO SHOW HER w/actions, (not words), that

marriage to you can be better/different than before?

I haven't shown anger and I have caught most of my judgmental and criticizing thoughts (at least those I could see). I have tried to empathize with the locals and with W. I take time to think before answering a question and don't lose my temper even if I'm being told my mistakes. I am more patient and I try not to impose my expectations on others. I am working very hard at curving my "passive aggressive" behaviour and stopping every attempt at making people feel guilty (that I can catch). I am more relaxed with my daughter. I learned to lay off and not criticize her anymore. I have been more generous in general, I stop looking for excuse why i shouldn't share/give to others. I often speak to the locals in their language, and I initiate many conversation, trying to understand them. I force myself to be happy from within, but I'm not always successful. It's a work in progress. Overall, I generally try to be kind to all people. I am not there yet, far from it. but everyday, on this site and through my C and discussions with friends, I find out things about myself that I don't like and I try to correct it. I know it might be too late for my marriage, but at least it's not too late for me, my daughter and my future relationships.

Thanks you so much.

Thanks Needsgrace,

It very powerful stuff but not easy to apply on a daily basis. It's from Conversation with God By Neile Walsh.

I think it's quite good as well. I might borrow parts of it. It's not an easy thing to do but it might also help me release her. And I think it would also be out of character. Boy this stuff isn't getting easier. I feel emotionally drained.

Thanks everyone, really.

Dear fellow DBers,

When i came here at first, everyone told me I was in for a roller coaster ride and I believed you but I had no idea to what extent.

As is mentioned earlier in my thread, yesterday W came around to tell me she wanted a divorce, that we were incompatible, that we weren't even friends and that she could never be with me again.

I managed to remain calm during the meeting but i don't need to tell you that once i was on my own (and later in the evening when I was out with a few friends) I fell apart and it was a long way up. Even today for most of the day my stomach was in a huge knot and i could not think of anything else.

Then, this evening, W calls to tell D8 that she'll be dropping by. I, of course don't know what to expect so after going through a mild anxiety attack, I decide to act "as if" no matter what. I was cooking for myself and D8 and I put on some music and started dancing with d8 while cooking. It was a lot of fun, cheered me up and got W off my mind.

When W walked in, D8 and myself were making silly music videos with her phone camera and we were laughing so much it hurt.

To my surprise, W came in, touched my shoulder gently as she said hello and said the food smelled good. I asked her if she was hungry and offered her some pasta which to my surprise, she accepted (in the last few weeks she would refuse any food from me). As she was eating, she commented positively on the pasta and said that she hadn't had western food since I'd left 2 1/2 month before. I was glad to see that she enjoyed it but secretly wished I had cooked one of her favorite dishes.

Later, she told me she was here to apologize for what she'd said yesterday.

I didn't ask her what part she was apologizing for and i didn't ask if she still wanted divorce. I just acknowledged her and told her not to worry about it.

We ended up having a great time together and she seemed relaxed and happy. At one point, after D8 went to bed she told her that her and daddy would just be talking in the living room. And talking we did. Just a nice interesting convo about a bit of everything and I let her lead while I was happy to listen, and validate when i could. She expressed many times that she was worried about our/my financial difficulties (neither of us have found a job yet). She also said that she often thought that it had been a mistake to come in this city (the city where OM lives) and that perhaps it would have been better to go to where we had planned (the touristic area of the country). I told her I understood and that I was sure things would fall into place.
We talked about business ideas where we would combine our efforts, she asked me how my music was coming along. Overall, a pleasant evening and i remained a gentleman and a good listener throughout the evening. I managed to STFU while also contributing to the conversation in a pleasant manner when needed.

She just left, and as she walked to the car, turned around again to smile and say goodnight.

I smiled, replied and was the first one to walk away.

My stomach is no longer in a knot and i have a feeling i will sleep tonight. I'm not sure what happened between yesterday and today but I'll take any opportunity to show her how much of a good time we can have together.

Thank you all.

BTW, while I'm at it. I also find it interesting that she asked me if i was seeing an good female friend of mine romantically (actually the girl who encouraged me to make my move on W 10 year ago).

I told her no and she told me that it would be ok for me to date. I told her that I had no interest in it and that I didn't need it.

What do you make of that?

Arsene- wow, quite the ride you�re on. Up down up down�.

That�s great news that you had a good evening with W, I am very happy for you. I am not sure about your last comment.

�she told me that it would be ok for me to date. I told her that I had no interest in it and that I didn't need it.�

I think W wanted to take your temperature by making that statement. I am sure you will get mixed views from people on this board in regards to addressing W�s statement.

We all handle things differently and sometimes I F&^% up if I am thrown off guard. I probably would have simply said �point taken�. I know it�s water under the bridge so I don�t know why I am even bringing it up. Maybe because I think it�s a good idea to keep W guessing. You don�t make her �wonder� as much when you make a statement like that. By no means am I suggesting to start dating again. I know your response is truly how you feel however the fact is and I know you are aware of this, there�s some �gamesmanship that�s required�.

In regards to my own sitch, part of me thinks, whatever!!! I guess that�s my �as if� attitude however I think I genuinely feel that way. At the same time my sitch just consumes me like no other!! I know, I am contradicting myself. Don�t get me wrong, I do care, I won�t give up and I am going to do the hard work necessary and I know you are to. Take care!

Rough

Originally Posted By: Arsene

Not sure what to make of it. WHEN did she say this? During the prior divorce talk or later on when she came over and apologized? I think that's relevant.

She may realize the inherent one sided nature of her choice and wants to feel fair by saying you are free to date. But I am not sure what the context was.

Also, not to nitpick but when she apologizes listen to her carefully and don't think you are being generous by saying not to worry about it...

it sort of negates her apology. Plus it DID hurt you. Maybe she deserves "credit" or accountability for owning that.

Not sure if I'm being clear enough on that but when someone apologizes I think in our attempt to be non confrontational, we brush it off. Maybe it's better to say "thanks, It means a lot to hear you say that."

Plus you might have learned more about what she was apologizing for.
Was it an apology for the truth hurting you

or a retraction of some or all of it?

Your interactions with d8 are excellent. Maybe there will come a time when you thank your wife for being the catalyst for the changes you are making.

I say that so that she realizes you are growing too, and maybe she'll see you as being on the same team. That also happens with good co-parenting.

And the more she sees you as being on the same "side", the better the chance of growing from there. Love is at least partly a choice.

Love is not just a noun. Love is also an ACTION verb, (requiring action on our part)

and we have to choose to love, on a daily basis. Sometimes our partners' don't behave in a way that feels lovable to us but we have to choose to love them anyhow. I don't mean to say that being a doormat is "unconditional love" b/c if my partner were consistently mistreating me, I'd eventually leave the relationship.

My point is that love isn't just a "feeling" that lands on us or falls off like branches on a tree. Sometimes I think WASs forget that love is a choice.

Keep up the great interactions with your d and be the best dad you can be.

Your d needs you both & right now you are her rock. Where is your w living right now?

What are your job options? Can you move to the more touristy city? I mean it sounds as if your w had some good ideas to help the financial situation.

Do you have any plans on that topic? Being a good provider, sexist as this is, is attractive to women.

A study on marriage--- (I think this was a western study but maybe it was global. I don't know)--

revealed the two traits most important in spouses and showed some interesting findings.

For men, the two traits most important were that they found their wives physically attractive and that they wanted "peace in the home" which was interpreted as meaning no nagging or criticism.

Women said the two most important traits were security, (meaning that they felt safe physically--their h would protect them--and financially--the "shelter" was secure

and fidelity, which is pretty self explanatory.

But that reminds me of the "caveman" theory that my feminist friends only admit to in private.

It's that at some biological level, women can go back to the stone age and find that we want to feel safe in our cave when our hunter mate goes out.

We find ourselves most attracted to the man most likely to bring home the meat...and to know that if a saber tooth tiger tried to enter the cave, the man would fight it off or build something to block dangerous animals from entering. So the "security" factor is mulit-dimensional.

Particularly when there are children, I think it's crucial that a woman feels safe financially and physically. So maybe getting a job that provides some security would help all of you...??

Regardless, when you asked about the legal side of things, knowledge is power. Find out what your rights are as a non citizen, if that's applicable. For instance, I happen to know in Saudi Arabia, the Saudi citizen gets custody regardless of gender...

Find out your legal rights, get some financial security and be the best dad you can be and best man you can be.

Did I read it correctly that you have NOT read the Div Busting or Divorce Remedy books? You have to read it (I prefer the second one b/c it's the most recent) so you can really "get" what we are saying. This is a solution based approach to marital problems - which is one reason all the analysis can be counter productive. Same for re=hashing the past...

but if you don't read the book, it looks half hearted to me. The book Is also going to help you change in concrete ways, and that's a big deal.

if your wife believes the changes are real, that you are a crucial loving part of your d's life she won't want to remove, that you are a man only a fool would leave, that you offer security and a safe future, it's hard to believe she won't reconsider her choices...

but as stated elsewhere, don't argue with her about the choices. She'll defend the choices, instead of examining them.

You saw Denver's post and that's a good approach I think. But it requires a lot of patience. Look at his time line (and mine) to understand what we mean by reasonable timelines.

Like I said, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Hang in there.

Originally Posted By: roughenough

I think W wanted to take your temperature by making that statement. I am sure you will get mixed views from people on this board in regards to addressing W�s statement.

We all handle things differently and sometimes I F&^% up if I am thrown off guard. I probably would have simply said �point taken�. I know it�s water under the bridge so I don�t know why I am even bringing it up. Maybe because I think it�s a good idea to keep W guessing. You don�t make her �wonder� as much when you make a statement like that. By no means am I suggesting to start dating again. I know your response is truly how you feel however the fact is and I know you are aware of this, there�s some �gamesmanship that�s required�.

In regards to my own sitch, part of me thinks, whatever!!! I guess that�s my �as if� attitude however I think I genuinely feel that way. At the same time my sitch just consumes me like no other!! I know, I am contradicting myself. Don�t get me wrong, I do care, I won�t give up and I am going to do the hard work necessary and I know you are to. Take care!

Rough

Hey Rough,

Thanks for your words. I totally understand what you say about "keeping her guessing" and the effect it might have on her.

The thing is, that's kind of what I had been doing and I think it could be a reason why she would have acted so insensitively on that Saturday evening, when she got ready for her date in front of me. Kind of giving me a taste of my own medicine.

I also think that my "dark/dim" attitude, which was mainly to protect myself from emotional pain and to help me detach, could have been the catalyst for her request for divorce on the grounds that she didn't know how to act when I'm around, that we weren't even friends anymore and that we were incompatible.

One of the things which is repeated over and over again in this site is "Do what works" and this approach didn't work.

Thus, in a way, I went the Denver route and opted for honesty and openness, figuring I had nothing to lose at this point. I'm not saying that I will not remain mysterious in some ways but I think that in this comment (along with my previous comment about not wanting a divorce) I also made my stand quite clear without showing myself as a doormat (at least I hope). I also think it shows a certain strength of character and integrity.

I realize as well that there is gamesmanship required and that in a way, it's like a game of chess and that we are constantly walking on eggshells but like in chess sometimes it's necessary to lose a pawn in order to place yourself in a better strategic position. I'm choosing my battles and in this case I think I did the right move.

Is your "as if" working for you? If the "I don't care" attitude makes your W wonder and think about you that might be good, but I think that in my case, this would push her away. I don't know. It's just that right now, I feel a lot better with showing care and concern as well as preserving the friendship. We once were (and I think still are deep inside) the best of friends. May be that's why it hurts so much because I'm losing my wife, my family, my best friend, my band mate, my confident and all of that in one go. The thing is, so is she and this is good in a way.

I know how you feel about your sitch mate, there is not a moment of the day I don't have it in the forefront of my mind. It's exhausting and it made the last two weeks since i got back (yup, only two weeks) feel like I've been at this for years. I only hope it does get easier to deal with, but again, I am determined to see this thing through because I believe in my W and I know that if she stays close enough, for long enough, we still have a chance at a life together. I also accept that there are no guarantees but at this point, I'm still naive enough to keep hope.

Take care of yourself my friend. Stay strong.

Hi Arsene-
I know it�s not funny but I had to chuckle when you mentioned the OM was a drummer. In my sitch I can�t confirm OM however I feel there�s a high probability it�s with a drummer in a local band. I know MrBond, (mindreading). Gotta watch out for those damn drummers!! I hope your not a drummer

Anyway, your spot on, gotta do what works. The following comment you made really got me thinking.

�I know that if she stays close enough, for long enough, we still have a chance at a life together.�

It made me think, wow, maybe I shouldn�t be so �matter of fact� with W. Your right, every sitch is different and do what works. I am matter of fact because in our relationship I was a begger, pleader, pursuer, needy, the list goes on, so it�s a 180 for me.

I want nothing but the best for you, I hope you can work towards reconciliation. I vividly remember vets that recently reconciled on this board totally let go, moved on with life, almost to the point of throwing in the towel, total detach, etc�.Maybe those aren�t the exact words to use, but I am sure you get my point. For some reason they had to get to that point before things turned around. Like you said, I don�t know

Any updates since the noodle dinner?
Take care of yourself as well.

Rough

Originally Posted By: Arsene
BTW, while I'm at it. I also find it interesting that she asked me if i was seeing an good female friend of mine romantically (actually the girl who encouraged me to make my move on W 10 year ago).

I told her no and she told me that it would be ok for me to date. I told her that I had no interest in it and that I didn't need it.

What do you make of that?

Not sure what to make of it. WHEN did she say this? During the prior divorce talk or later on when she came over and apologized? I think that's relevant.

She may realize the inherent one sided nature of her choice and wants to feel fair by saying you are free to date. But I am not sure what the context was.

She said it just after apologizing and it came out as just a "by the way" comment.

Also, not to nitpick but when she apologizes listen to her carefully and don't think you are being generous by saying not to worry about it...

it sort of negates her apology. Plus it DID hurt you. Maybe she deserves "credit" or accountability for owning that.

Not sure if I'm being clear enough on that but when someone apologizes I think in our attempt to be non confrontational, we brush it off. Maybe it's better to say "thanks, It means a lot to hear you say that."

Plus you might have learned more about what she was apologizing for.
Was it an apology for the truth hurting you

or a retraction of some or all of it?

I think you are right, in fact, as I was telling her not to worry about it, it felt wrong and dismissive, but I was so taken by surprise that I found myself at a loss for words and spurted out the "reflex" answer for such a situation. I'll make sure to keep this in mind if ever she apologizes again and try to change my "reflex" answer for this kind of situation.

I'm thinking now about perhaps telling her later that I appreciate the fact that she did apologize but I'm not sure of the wisdom behind that as it might re-open R talks and for the moment, I would rather keep things the way they are.

Your interactions with d8 are excellent. Maybe there will come a time when you thank your wife for being the catalyst for the changes you are making.

I am already thankful. I think that to do what she did, in our present cultural context, must have taken a lot of strength and courage. It's just hard to remember this on a daily basis, especially with OM in the picture, but I know that I probably wouldn't have put in this amount of work if she had just spoken to me.

I say that so that she realizes you are growing too, and maybe she'll see you as being on the same team. That also happens with good co-parenting.

And the more she sees you as being on the same "side", the better the chance of growing from there. Love is at least partly a choice.

Love is not just a noun. Love is also an ACTION verb, (requiring action on our part)

and we have to choose to love, on a daily basis. Sometimes our partners' don't behave in a way that feels lovable to us but we have to choose to love them anyhow. I don't mean to say that being a doormat is "unconditional love" b/c if my partner were consistently mistreating me, I'd eventually leave the relationship.

My point is that love isn't just a "feeling" that lands on us or falls off like branches on a tree. Sometimes I think WASs forget that love is a choice.

I hear you loud and clear. It's too bad that there isn't a manual on how to love. All those years I thought I was doing the right thing and loving her the right way but now I realize that my attitude was misguided and I see how this contributed to my present sitch. thanks so much for keeping me on my toes 25yearsMLC. It really hurts to see what I've done and how I've behaved, but it also hurts because I know that at some point, my W will probably go through this self realization and suffer the way I do now. I don't wish that on her.

Keep up the great interactions with your d and be the best dad you can be.

Your d needs you both & right now you are her rock. Where is your w living right now?

She's living in a boarding house downtown but she'll be moving to one closer to where we are in a week or so.

What are your job options? Can you move to the more touristy city? I mean it sounds as if your w had some good ideas to help the financial situation.

Do you have any plans on that topic? Being a good provider, sexist as this is, is attractive to women.

A study on marriage--- (I think this was a western study but maybe it was global. I don't know)--

revealed the two traits most important in spouses and showed some interesting findings.

For men, the two traits most important were that they found their wives physically attractive and that they wanted "peace in the home" which was interpreted as meaning no nagging or criticism.

Women said the two most important traits were security, (meaning that they felt safe physically--their h would protect them--and financially--the "shelter" was secure

and fidelity, which is pretty self explanatory.

But that reminds me of the "caveman" theory that my feminist friends only admit to in private.

It's that at some biological level, women can go back to the stone age and find that we want to feel safe in our cave when our hunter mate goes out.

We find ourselves most attracted to the man most likely to bring home the meat...and to know that if a saber tooth tiger tried to enter the cave, the man would fight it off or build something to block dangerous animals from entering. So the "security" factor is mulit-dimensional.

Particularly when there are children, I think it's crucial that a woman feels safe financially and physically. So maybe getting a job that provides some security would help all of you...??

D8 just started school so we are here at least for a year. i could move away to get work and leave D8 with my W, but I don't think it would be a good idea at this time. Besides, I promise D8 that I would not leave her and she occasionally reminds me of my promise.

My options vary but mainly , I can go back to teaching. I've been to a few places recently and the time of year isn't right (it's the holy month of Ramadan) however, I'm fairly confident that I will find something within a month or so.

I also realize that no matter what, my W also wants what's best for D8 and she would value the fact that I can provide financially. She really enjoyed my cooking last night and somehow, I think she probably misses having a home as well.

Boarding houses in this country go for about 30 USD per month and are little more than a walk-in closet with a mattress on the floor. I'm sure that the "gipsy" side of her is enjoying it for the moment but I also think that coming to visit her daughter in a nice family home with home cooking and D8's drawings on the fridge will have a positive impact on her.

She did have many ideas about ways to make a bit of money on the side and we discussed these (mostly cottage industry stuff), almost as if we were a family/team. I'm not reading too much into it but trying a venture within the local community would also help me accomplish a few of my 180s, which are to try to understand the local culture as well as the language.

Regardless, when you asked about the legal side of things, knowledge is power. Find out what your rights are as a non citizen, if that's applicable. For instance, I happen to know in Saudi Arabia, the Saudi citizen gets custody regardless of gender...

Find out your legal rights, get some financial security and be the best dad you can be and best man you can be.

Yes. This is what I'm going to do.

Did I read it correctly that you have NOT read the Div Busting or Divorce Remedy books? You have to read it (I prefer the second one b/c it's the most recent) so you can really "get" what we are saying. This is a solution based approach to marital problems - which is one reason all the analysis can be counter productive. Same for re=hashing the past...

but if you don't read the book, it looks half hearted to me. The book Is also going to help you change in concrete ways, and that's a big deal.

You are right, I haven't read it yet. I'm trying to get it now. Amazone does deliver in this country but I need to use a friend's credit card so for the time being it's a long process, but 'm on it. hopefully I can order it this weekend. Believe me that there is nothing half-hearted about what I'm doing and am willing to do to change myself and hopefully save my family.

if your wife believes the changes are real, that you are a crucial loving part of your d's life she won't want to remove, that you are a man only a fool would leave, that you offer security and a safe future, it's hard to believe she won't reconsider her choices...

I understand what you are saying. A thing which might be going for me is that her female friends already agree with this and think that she is making a mistake by leaving me. She told me that she doesn't talk to them about this anymore because she says they don't understand. I think a lot of people are routing for me in this, including her sister. I'm not sure it's really a good thing, though because no one like to be told what to do. Before you ask, no, I didn't not contact her family or her friends and do not intend to.

but as stated elsewhere, don't argue with her about the choices. She'll defend the choices, instead of examining them.

Yes, I've noted that. Patience is the word. She has to look at these choices she made at her own pace. For all I know, these choices are/will be the right ones for her and if that's what it is, I'll have to be able to accept that.

You saw Denver's post and that's a good approach I think. But it requires a lot of patience. Look at his time line (and mine) to understand what we mean by reasonable timelines.

Like I said, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Hang in there.

I really like Denver's approach. I can relate to the way he feels about his sitch and how he personalizes and adapts DB to fit within these feelings and in harmony with what his heart tells him.
Thanks 25yearsMLC. I appreciate you not giving up on me. I can see how I must have sounded to you in my earlier posts. Thanks for turning the mirror on me.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

This is mad. After such a high yesterday I feel so miserable today. There should be no reasons why today is worse than yesterday but for some reasons, OM is on my mind and I can't seem to shake him. I replay our evening of yesterday and I can just see her, laying in bed next to D8, looking so beautiful and then, it's like OM comes from out of no where and teases me and I push him out of my thought but her just comes back.

I thought I was ok, but I'm not. How do I move on from this stage?

Choosing to forgive, even when you know you played a role in how you two got here when you shut her out and down b/c you were depressed but never told her...

regardless - it's just a choice you made to BEGIN a process. The process of forgiveness for many of us, is a learned skill. I did not see it growing up so I didn't know what it looked like.

You can get some books on it, like "After the Affair", which I heard helps and that's for full blown physical affairs where the WAS feels "SO in love with their soul mates" and 'never felt that way before" and yada yada...as if the marriage to their partner never happened in their hearts...

(BTW chapter 1 or more, of DBing is on this site somewhere, so you can get started reading it. It's not the "how to" part but it gets you started on the books)...

For now I'd do the "Stop Sign" imagery thing so that whenever OM enters your mind you see a STOP SIGN in your head, and then change the image or topic to a neutral one OR a happy one of you and your daughter... AND then DO something physical. It really does help.

You may need a soothing mantra or two, to use in those moments. Stay calm and don't let those thoughts go wild in you. Practice mental discipline on this or you'll say some things you will regret. And you'll feel horrible too.

No, they are not having wildly satisfying sex all night and laughing at you and having one fantastic conversation after another and sharing ALL their insights and dreams and blah blah blah...it's NOT that way.

It's much less fun, much more complicated and there are many UNFUN emotions in her at this time...she's a mother, and that's a big deal. She knows what guilt feels like, and it's not always neurotic shame - but a conscience.
She knows OM has a FAMILY too. His willingness to leave them, MAYBE, is not necessarily seen as an act of pure love, but of at least some selfishness...and a possible pattern...

She knows the OM isn't a long term deal. He's a player who MAY find her appealing at the moment but in his line of work in that culture, I think his other options will appeal to him sooner rather than later and that MAY crush her..OR NOT...

she is not a stupid woman. But she has been hurt for longer than you realize and when you say "I ignored her b/c I was depressed but did not know it"...you are admitting something important, but then you seem to minimize it with a line or two that "explains/defends" your behavior which, no offense, sounded sh!tty to me.

So,you weren't "able" to be there for her, & she fell into OMs arms and then you went on to kind of go on about your pain. I'm sure that does NOT help you NOW.

We're solution based. Remember? What can you DO?

You hurt her. So, rather than emphasizing how hurt you are NOW when you merely imagine things you fear,

you could either recall what she was actually going through back then and what she saw in you that made her turn away--or got pushed away--

BUT ONLY IF YOU CAN BE PRODUCTIVE W/THAT imagery. If it only brings you down in shame, don't do it. but If it helps you stay focussed on the mirror, use it. Make sense?

How do I live with the knowledge that the woman I love more than life itself is in the arms of an OM.

1) You don't KNOW she's in his arms. OR loving it. And 2) you teach yourself how to change the way you think

which is what your goals are anyhow, correct? Changing yourself. Where the head goes, the heart will follow.

you can do this--this thing called change.

And then I get angry! I ask myself, how can she do this? How can she believe that this is going to help her find herself?

My DB coach told me that "asking things like 'HOW CAN MY H do this?" or "WHY are you ruining our family?" are SO NOT productive.

They are actually intended to elicit a defensive response from them and that's what you'll get.

You'd think I'd know that b/c I examine/cross examine witnesses but it never really occurred to me that way. YES---I DID see those questions as ways of me "scoring points" in litigation, but good grief, that sure does not belong in a marriage relationship. But I did it for YEARS! So I Thank God for my DB coach, what a Godsend she was...literally I think.

So w/those questions that we all FEEL like asking at some point, won't get you the answers you want. (Is there an answer anyhow? "OH, b/c I'm a selfish whore" or "B/c you deserve to be treated crappy" or "b/c I'm insane"??? See there's no good answer to those questions. Plus---

She'll probably tell you exactly how SHE felt when you belittled her for so long, and she'll recall 100 times more things than you recall. And she'll remember her pain that you either glossed over or didn't even know about but it was real...

She MAY tell you that when she's around OM he's "kind and complimentary and sensitive and cares about others"---

and in her eyes she'll SAY that he has or is who she needs/wants (and wished you were)...Do you want to hear that?

She'll tell you that you pushed her into his arms when you cruelly turned from her in HER time of need...and she believes that.

**Realize this--IMO, while your wife never wanted to hurt you intentionally,

I believe your wife felt justified in her feelings and does not believe she was morally wrong to feel that way. So you making her wrong now, won't help YOU.
She rationalized it and most women DO. Men sometimes go for 'quick easy no strings sex" but it's NOT like that for most women, including your wife.

She FELT something and that lead her in a new direction. Believe me, she felt justified or at least struggled with it.

***ALSO---The angry questions you want to ask,

WILL FUEL HER NEGATIVE IMAGES OF YOU,

WHICH YOU WANT TO COUNTER...W/POSITIVE IMAGES. Remember? Get it?

So Get the mirror out and work on the ONE person here, whom you can truly change and "control", which is YOU. And only you...

Also, maybe The more you demonstrate forgiveness, the more likely she'll believe in your changes and, the more likely she'll give it a try w/you. Have you asked her for forgiveness? And know that even if she says "Oh yes",

then understand that HER process for forgiveness is also NOT linear or instant...it's a process for her too. Did she see it growing up in her childhood?

When she asked me if I was seeing someone else, I should have told her that no, I wasn't. That I had no interest because in order to find myself, to be able to find happiness within myself, I need to make sure I don't jump in the arms of someone else, and find happiness there. That this is crucial to a personal search. It must be done alone. It's like an alcoholic replacing whiskey for beer. He's still drinking. He's not healing and he's just lying to himself when he says that there isn't as much alcohol in it so it's not the same thing.

I don't think so. I think this ^^^ is you lecturing her some more...it's more of your arguing your case to her, more of you judging her and telling her how SHE can be a better person and SHE CAN and SHOULD do a better search for meaning (a search that you have NOT done yourself...)

How convincing do you think that would be?

You MIGHT say, "I think for me, being w/myself is what I need, for now." Spare her the rest of the speech that is focussed on changing/controlling HER, and taking the focus off you...again...

I wonder if she realizes this. I'd like to hear from 25yearsMLC on this. Am I being too harsh on her? Am I disrespecting her choice to grow the way she chooses? I'm sorry 25, I'm not being disrespectful, I just want to know what would make a woman who is on a search for personal growth do such a thing?

The answer is IN the question. The search for personal growth is often triggered by another person- and how it makes her feel (just as your search was triggered by her emotional declaration).

I will post to you something from a WAW to her LBS h, that may help you understand where she (your w) is coming from.

But The short answer is, PAIN would make her seek out solace from someone offering it. Giving Solace and sharing things, i.e, disclosure builds emotional intimacy and that can lead to physical intimacy and sometimes, love.

And if that person came into her life or consciousness at the same time her partner in life rejected her or dismissed her, etc, (hurt her) then it would be even more contrasting and more noticeable that OM would be seen as different/better than what she had been living with. It would likely make her question other things too....she'd awaken to what was lacking in her m...

like I said, the letter from the other WAW to her h (after he changed a lot and wondered why his wife had any reservations about coming home to him and why she'd still THINK of OM...)

may help you understand better.

I want to understand so that I maybe able to better accept what she is doing. To stop the pain I feel when ever she's not around and my thought imagine her with him.

How can I justify this to myself? I can't!!! i wish I didn't know about him. I wish she'd not told me this way I could simply tell myself that she just wouldn't do that, no matter what the signs are.

This reminds me of the way Denver felt after he took his W and SS to the cinema.

what a horrible feeling.

It is a horrible feeling and I understand that. I used to wonder about the millions of "walking wounded" out there who somehow went to work and functioned in their life. I had a real appreciation for the people at work who someone would summarily describe as "was just divorced" and move on as is that said it all. To me that was like saying "His family just got wiped out in a plane crash...so he'll want to leave at 5 pm" and then sigh that he's not available for overtime...

It changed a lot about how I saw MANY folks in my life/work/neighborhood, etc.

I guess you're still in a newly reeling place but (b/c of your other threads)

I didn't know she got ready for a date in front of you. ??

That was not necessary of her and at best was insensitive. Nothing wrong w/you telling her that it hurt and you'd appreciate more discretion.

But I did not see that thread or post so don't say this if it's not fitting to the context.

To answer another question of yours, yes, couples can and DO recover from affairs. We know this for a fact.

*** But one BIG problem that people gloss over is this:***

When a person has an affair and then regrets it, SOMETIMES the reason the WAS does not return or even try to return is

the WAS fears that the LBSer won't ever forgive.

The WAS may want to come home but if they fear that

the LBS will hold it over their heads like the Sword of Damacles, or throw it in their face every time they fight, the WAS wont' bother trying to come home.
and sometimes their fears are justified, but when they are not justified it makes it even sadder.

But that fear is MORE Likely for her to have, with the questions you want to throw at her.

She'll think "Oh, there he goes! He'll NEVER forgive me; he'll be EVEN MORE Angry and it'll be WORSE than before... and that's the last thing I want to return to..." it will confirm her fears that you cannot change or be kind and uncritical.

At least that's what I believe is most likely w/those questions.

If the time comes when she wants to try and reconcile, THEN you can come to terms with how to rebuild trust, on both ends...certainly not now.

Anyhow, the next post is from the WAW and so, see if it helps you gain insight.

(I think It was posted to Denver, btw...)

((( )))

Arsene, here it is. Hope it helps...like I said I think it was posted to Denver after he got a letter from his then WAW...(whom he's now reconciled with, btw)

So Denver got this letter from another WAW, relating to his wife, and it opened his eyes a bit, or so I think.

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO REALLY HAS CHANGED - AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET-

AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM�.

When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. -

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.

So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties/hurts that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H

and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.

You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

****And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "WIN".***

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
_______________

ps

you MUST get the books. I don't care how. Buy it on a Kindle Or Nook or somehow get it done! Ask a friend/sibling to mail it to you or something...

But get it. Read it. This will help you tremendously and it'll calm you when you need it.

I also had playlists on my Ipod to comfort me or to motivate me OR to make me imagine my life without h BUT W/ME BEING HAPPY

and some "fury marches" where I just exercised the heck out of myself FOR ME to work off the stress...and some mantras.

Little 2 min pep talks too, can help. If you believe in a supreme being, try turning over your pain and anger over to Him/Universe b/c it's too much for you at the moment.

That's not weakness; it's awareness and it's protective. Otherwise it's so easy to lose it and say something you cannot take back...or that sets you back far.

Get the books...I promise they'll change your attitude and your life.

BTW, if you get advice that is NOT DB advice AND OR comes from an angry bitter or unsuccesful person, consider the source.

And always Check yourself for motivations too. Are you wanting to do or say something to punish her, to convince her, to "show her the consequences of her actions" to "teach her a lesson"?????

My DB coach shocked me when she said "OH NO, It's NOT your job to do that to your spouse. Life does it for them." Ask yourself if your proposed words/acts come from a place of love or light in your heart, versus a darker place that wants to SHOW HER!!!

I had to do this a lot b/c I used the "this is so unfair" excuse to become my husband's jury and judge and executioner. All on the grounds of what's FAIR AND JUST...

but it was me judging him. And it never ever helped my cause. Not even once. Just backfired 100% of the time. So you'd think I'd change my behavior a bit sooner but NOT ME!!!

Look, we all have to check ourselves for whether our spouses are cake eating/taking advantage of us

OR if there's real progress or baby steps happening that are improving things...

We have to check ourselves for what self respect is, versus being too prideful.
"Boundary setting" versus an excuse to punish.

We all have wounded pride and bruised egos in this situation. We may grow and be glad for the ultimate changes in the LONG RUN...but for now,

you need to get through your days without freaking. We need to make sure our choices are NOT based on our wounded pride or bruised egos.

You need to manage your pain hwoever you can. Can you get anything for the anxiety to help you sleep, or to keep you from letting your mind careen around in dark places? Or to help you STFU?

Sometimes the most helpful thing to say, is nothing.

And getting help, professionally, is SMART and HEALTHY of you...trust me, there's NO shame in that. Been there, done it.

((( )))

Thank you so much 25. You hit the spot and got me teary-eyed once again. I never wanted to ask her those questions though. I was venting to get it out, but I realize that this type of question would destroy any chance I may have.

What's encouraging is that I think I had managed to forgive her after her EA of two years ago and even to rebuild trust. I just hope that if/when the time comes I can manage it again. I think that this process might be more difficult the second time around.

The letter helps. I understand how it might happen and it saddens me, to think that she might be in love with him, but I'm not angry anymore. Just sad. I'll try your "stop sign" trick and try to focus on myself and D8.

Again, thanks so much for your time and wisdom. It's not fallen on deaf ears, I promise you. I'll do what I need to do to make things right.

Hey Rough,

Thanks for popping by. Post-noodles updates includes me feeling in the dumps as you can read above, and W coming around again today and suggesting a family outing.

When W found out that me and D8 were supposed to go fly her kite at a nearby park but cancelled because she called to say she was dropping by (D8's idea), she suggested we all ride our bikes and go together.

Other than the fact that I felt the way I did and had to make a tremendous effort to act "as if", I suppose things went well enough except for one incident which leaves me wondering.

W had asked me to put her phone in my backpack so she wouldn't need to bring her purse so i did. At the park, while I was running around with D8, trying to get the kite off the ground (not enough wind), I looked in W's direction and noticed that she was reading a book, then I realized what she was reading.

In my backpack I had the only self-help English book I could find at the local book shop (and it turns out it's a useful one too). It's called US, by Lisa Oz and it's about transforming ourselves and the relationships that matter most. I'm only at chapter 2 (there are a lot of exercises to put the advice into practice) and I've underlined loads of stuff so far.

I'm not sure what she found in this or what she made of it, but I got scared, thinking about all the times I've heard "do not let them see what you're reading to improve yourself". By the time I got back to her, the book was away again and she didn't mention anything about it but now I find myself worrying.

I had a look at the stuff I had underlined and it's all good stuff which is rather general about making changes that last.

Now I wonder if this can have a negative impact.

On the way back we stopped for dinner at a food stall and after I took care of the bill she thanked me for dinner. I got down again when D8 and her were playing at kissing one another and my imagination went wild again, I long to be kissed by her so much and then I had to stop myself from actually kissing her. She was laughing, and it looked just like the old times and it's what I would have done then, but now, I can't anymore.

Needless to say, the remainder of the way home was tough. I kept my brave face on but she probably noticed that the mood had switched. Hopefully not. Another time in the evening when I got saddened was when it was time for D8' shower. We usually shower together and then W needed a shower as well before leaving so D8 opted to have a shower with mommy. What is sad is that we used to shower all three of us together in the old days and play in the water and all and then this reminded me that we weren't in the old days anymore.

W left a few hours ago. I wonder if this wasn't too much contact for the last few days. I'm not detached anymore, not that I ever was detached all that much but I think I was getting there. Now, little things affect me. The good times we had yesterday are clouding my judgment. I'm starting to see her as my companion again, but she is not. And that affects me. It also affects D8 who cried more than usually when W left.

Tonight, as I was reading 25yearsMLC's response, I started crying, and D8, who hadn't yet fallen asleep turned around and caught me. She then started crying uncontrollably. I hugged her but she wouldn't stop crying. She started talking about all her friends at school who have "happy families" and asked me when we would too. I told her we had to be strong and that mommy needed some time. I told her we both loved her and that I was trying very hard to become a better person and that one day, we might get our family back.

She just fell asleep again. I feel like hell. It's good that I have my D8 with me otherwise, sometimes I'd just go out to get myself a stiff drink, and perhaps do something stupid. She keeps me in check and focused on what is important.

And how are you doing Rough? Any updates on your sitch since the issue over you scheduled time with your SS?

I don't have the time at the moment to respond in full

but at those tough moments w/your d, try assuring her of YOUR love and stability and how long you have loved your wife and always will AND how you will ALWAYS LOVE YOUR D.....

That you "hope" things don't lead to more separation my mc said don't mention divorce unless the child does and EVEN THEN be hopeful

until if and when you KNOW for a FACT it's done...still be hopeful...

b/c you are - and b/c she needs that.

So you can say what I said when my girls asked if we were divorcing

I'd say "I hope not, b/c he's the love of my life"

OR

"I hope not b/c I've loved him a LONG time..."

and I did my best to assure them that their worst fears would NOT occur

but I had to ask what those were....

which were "moving again' and when I said

"oh no more moves, for at least 2 years" that helped A LOT...it meant d16 would finish at her high school and the younger d could not think that far ahead'...

it helped them feel a lot better. Stress what will NOT change for HER....

Friends, school, neighborhood, family nearby?

And if you must move, stress what is good about THAT....make sense?

Hi all,

I think I just broke a few DB rules. Let me explain.

Last night D8 had an awful night. She woke up crying and while I was hugging her to comfort her she told me that she missed cuddling with her mom. She also said that all her friends had happy families and that she wanted a happy family again. She asked me if we would ever have a happy family again. I was at a loss for words and on the edge of tears myself. I just told her that both her mom and myself loved her very much and that we needed to be strong and have faith. I told her that her mom needed some time to figure some things out and that we would give her a bit of space. I told her that I too , missed W and that I still loved her very much. I told her I was trying very hard to fix myself and to make sure we can have a happy family in the future. I don�t know if this is good but I just don�t have it in me to tell her that it might be over between her mom and I.

Through the night, she moved a lot and kicked me all night, keeping me awake for most of it (we share a queen size bed in our boarding house). Of course, this morning we were both exhausted and were almost late for school.

**I will bring this up with my C in a few days and arrange for D8 to see her. I�ve already talked to her about the fact that talking someone you don�t know sometimes is easier and asked her if she would like to meet my C. I think she is receptive to the idea. She even finds it funny that I have homework to do from the C.

Ok, so to continue, after getting home from school, I texted W to tell her that maybe, we (me and D8) should move into a house as soon as possible, to give D8 a more stable home. I figured that with a bit more routines and her own space with her toys (which are now all in boxes at friends�), home cooked meals and local friends to play with she might be able to adjust a bit more easily. Also, in a house, W could even spend more time with D8 and even, from time to time, stay the night I her room (which she can�t do here since we only have one room - by the way, I didn�t say this to W). After all, we have been living out of suitcase since April.

A few days ago, we had seen a house which might do (W saw it with us) so I thought that maybe it would be a good idea just to get this even though right now, our financial situation isn�t great. In fact, a few days ago, we decided that we should wait at least until I get work, especially so that the boarding house where I am now is quite big and managed by the mother of a friend who told us we could stay until the end of September (that�s when they lose the lease on the house). This is also convenient because my friend�s mom also loves D8 and often takes care of her if I need to step out.

Ok, so since there was so much to discuss, I suggested we meet and discuss our options, to which she happily agreed. We met downtown in a coffee stall and the meeting went well enough. I kept my head for most of it until W told me that D8 had asked if she could live with W. I was saddened by this and had to fight off tears. W said that she had asked D8 if she liked living with me and D8 answered that she did but that she missed W so much (there W had to hold back tears).

Anyways, I�ll try to make this long story a bit shorter by skipping a few things and bunching another few together. We went to see another house together on my motorcycle after dropping off her bicycle at her boarding house (my first time there) and we eventually agreed that maybe it�s not a good idea to rent a house just yet, mainly because there is a chance we can take over the lease of the boarding house where I am now at the end of September. This would be great as it would provide us with a bit of an income as well as with a home.

W said that she would try to see D8 more often and suggested she could perhaps even spend the night in our room every so often (I can sleep on an inflatable mattress we have).

Now, I know I probably broke a few rules but remember how four days ago, W said she wanted a divorce because we weren�t friends anymore and that we weren�t compatible? Well I think that what I was doing then (being dark/dim and mysterious) wasn�t working. I suspect that she got angry at the thought of me being with OW (my lady friend) and that this is what prompted her impulsive reaction. Since then we have made progress, met everyday (twice her initiative and once mine) and had an overall good time which sounds good to me.

Here are some good things which I think came out of today.

We talked about D8 and connected on most ideas to help her cope with this. The talk included how W can be around a bit more and maybe even spend the night once in a while (her ideas). It also included the possibility of D8 seeing my C.

We had a good time and she let me take her to a local food stall I discovered for some local porridge (which W loves).

W mentioned that she had noticed many changes in me, and that she thought I was doing well.

W mentioned that when talking to D8, D8 had told her that I didn�t get angry anymore.

She commented on how good a ride my motorbike was, how great it felt and what a good purchase it was (just a few days ago she called me selfish for buying it).

During our conversation, at one point when I was talking about how great D8 was, she reached out and squeezed my shoulder gently and we had good eye contact and a laugh on some things.

There was no R talk.

W didn't seem too concerned about my knowing where she lives.

I ended the meeting by dropping her off at her boarding house said a quick thank you and good bye and left right away.

These are the negative things which took place.

I initiated contact, the meeting and the lunch invitation.

I became teary-eyed at the mention of D8 wanting to live with W.

At one point, when I was talking about business ideas, W said that I would need a local to register it. Then she said that she supposed she could do it if I wanted.

Again, I don�t know if all of this is good or bad but at least we agreed that D8 is both our priority and I hope that we can help her cope with this.

On the DB side of things. What do I make of it? Probably too much. I�m just happy right now that W and I are on talking terms again and that she has noticed (and approves of) some of the changes I�ve made. I also have a feeling that OM might not be as big a part of W�s life as I thought. She talked a lot about wanting to spend more time with D8, spending Saturday nights here with her. Taking her to gigs if she had to. Even offered to take D8 during Idul Fitri (Muslim week-long holiday at the end of Ramadan)so that I can go for a motorbike drive to do research on some business ideas (import/export). With all of this, there doesn�t seem to be much time left for OM. I know, I�m just making assumptions but this helps me cope, for the moment.

I felt that she was looking at me with different eyes, and although there is still a lot of distance, (and I�m sure a long way to go) it�s nice to see her that way. I also noted that over the last few days, she often commented on how good I look. I know. It� s not enough for a reconciliation but right now, I�ll take encouragements anywhere I can.

I�d love to hear your ideas on this.

Thanks for listening.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

You saw Denver's post and that's a good approach I think. But it requires a lot of patience. Look at his time line (and mine) to understand what we mean by reasonable timelines.

Like I said, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Hang in there.

I really like Denver's approach. I can relate to the way he feels about his sitch and how he personalizes and adapts DB to fit within these feelings and in harmony with what his heart tells him.
Thanks 25yearsMLC. I appreciate you not giving up on me. I can see how I must have sounded to you in my earlier posts. Thanks for turning the mirror on me.

You have to read Divorce Remedy to get an understanding of DB Arsene (Divorce Busting not as helpful). Be sure to get it and read it soon.

agreed....

there's too much guesswork in your approach b/c you think by reading stuff here that it'll all sink in.

It won't. We can help SUPPORT your DBing efforts but you have to "get" the fundamentals first, for us to support your efforts, and those are in the book. I recall a woman here posting for MONTHS and making so little progress in her efforts (mostly aimed at changing her partner)

and she'd quote OTHER books she read and talked about what THOSE books taught her...and never ever got the DB or Divorce Remedy book...and she's single for good now. Her last post sounded A LOT like her first one...

she Learned very little b/c she wanted it to come fast and easy and be super intuitive and she basically got lazy, or really wanted to "be right"...imo.

I know you are not lazy, but you are skipping THE main step.

Did you find Chapter one online here? You can.

And for God's sake, get the book mailed to you. I cannot imagine it being so difficult--you are in a land where they have internet and you have a mailing address right?

I mean I've been overseas in combat areas and I'm pretty sure I could have gotten the book by now.

Sorry to hammer you on this but you're taking a short cut in an area that needs a thorough understanding of the approach.

--------
OTherwise, most of what happened sounds good. Especially if you can find some reliable source of income.

As for your d, did you read my post? That advice came from our mc and he stressed that I should NOT say the word divorce unless I was 100% sure it was happening and even then, NOT too far in advance. IT's like a guillotine hanging over their heads.

IF and when the time comes, you give her a week or two to adjust and see what else the c says.

Honestly I think your d feels really unsettled right now --and I understand why. You ALL are living in boarding houses.

As a former military member and wife, w/17 moves w/children, I can tell you that is a chronic stresser that just depletes emotional resources.
It's literally and figuratively unsettling...24/7.

And her toys are all at other's homes?

That makes me sad. Get your d settled SOMEWHERE asap. talk happily about her having her own room, etc...what will she want to do with it if she can paint it or hang posters, etc.

Give her something to look forward to...and

get the book.

Thanks Denver and 25,

I assure you that I'm not trying to take a shortcut by not getting DR, and that I'm doing all that is in my power to try and get it. I hope to be able to order it this weekend and I plan on making it an express delivery. Believe me when I tell you that courier doesn't make it here. Half of what's been sent from my family in my country hasn't made it here. Besides, I don't have a credit card (or an address) and have to rely on friends for that, and I have but I'm at their mercy time-wise.

I know the situation isn't the best, with all of us living in boarding houses but right now, I'm doing my best to play the cards I've been dealt. This happened during a transition stage and I didn't chose the timing. I realise (and I think W is starting to) that this was probably the worst time for us to go through this and now, with me not having a job, our savings are vanishing quite rapidly and this country doesn't have a safety net.

BTW, D8 does have some of her toys with her here but the bulk of them are still in boxes. I understand what effect this has on her and that is why I thought of just getting a house, any house, right now. W thinks we should wait at least until the end of september, because of the money situation but also because of the chance we might have at taking over the boarding house where I am. I am a bit torn but overall, I agree with her as long as we can make D8's life a bit better til then. W has voluntarily made the commitment to try and be here more often and I guess we'll try this approach for now.

Believe me! I am getting the book!!!

So you don't think there is anything wrong with my actions of yesterday? I hope not. It felt mostly good. I've had the first good night of sleep (6 hours) since I got back and I still feel good this morning.

Thanks again.

Well, I guess I�m headed for another sleepless night for tonight. The incredible saga continues by the looks of it. Just once I�d like to hold on to something stable for more than a day.

To be honest, I think I f@#%&d up majorly today, not once but twice, and I feel terrible now. I really must get that DR book fast. I feel like I�m right in the middle of a mine field and I don�t know how to get out of it.

This is what happened today. W picked up D8 from school and got here around noon. After yesterday�s high, I was looking forward to it but promised myself to give her space and not crowd her. I knew that her and D8 were going to go with some of W�s friends for the afternoon and that in the evening, they�d planned to be back here for the night and spend the night together to help alleviate the separation anxiety that D8 seems to be going through.

First of all, on arrival, the mood was strange and W stayed in the common room and barely spoke a word. She seemed very distant and I matched that by keeping away. I was practicing my guitar so I just kept doing that but felt uncomfortable. I decided to text a friend to ask if something was up this evening so I wouldn�t have to be here and I could then give W and D8 some space. That�s when I did a stupid mistake. The kind of mistake I hear about all the time but think it�s so stupid that I don�t know how one can do this. I mistakenly sent the text to W. The text said.

Hi (friend), what�s up this evening? W is here with the kid and the mood is heavy. I need to get out.

W then called me in the common room and told me of my mistake. I felt like such an idiot. I apologized to her and didn�t quite know what else to do. To this, she asked me if I was ok. I said yes and went back to the room. She followed me in, closed the door and sat on the bed, near me and asked again if I was ok. To this, I said I was and she told me that I always say that I�m ok. I told her she says the same and we laughed a bit. Then she asked me if I wanted to talk and I told her that the same way I can�t be there for her when she might need to talk because I�m too involved in the situation, she can�t be there for me either because she is also too involved in the situation.

Then she said that maybe we should get a divorce. That it might make things better for me, for us. I asked her if she needed a divorce and she said that she didn�t. That it just would make things easier with others and that this shouldn�t matter anyway. I then gave her what I remembered of the �Denver� response.

I said that I didn�t want a divorce. I told her that if she wanted one, I would give it to her but that I was not going to help her get it. I said that I was still in love with her and that I still hoped we could reconcile in the future and work together on building a new relationship. I said that for now, I needed time to work on myself and that I understood she also needed time. I said that I would give her all the time and space she needs and that if one day she decided that she wanted to come back home, that she knew where she could find me.

To this she of course said that I didn�t have to do this. I said that I understood and that there was no pressure on her. That I had no expectations and that the reason I was doing this was to be the person I wanted to be. She knows about the parable of the candle in the sun and I told her that this �darkness� that entered my life was an opportunity for me to be, and show myself, who I wanted to be. I told her that I actually thanked her for making the choices that she made. That I understood it must have been difficult, still was difficult but that by doing this she gave me the opportunity to change who I was and to become a better man.

A lot of what was said next is still a bit blurry in my mind but I know she said I shouldn�t wait for her and that if I met someone else I should just move on. To this I replied that I wasn�t �waiting� for her. That I was moving forward with my life to become the best person I could be for me and for D8. I also told her that for the time being, I needed to be alone to figure myself out and do what I needed to do. That is what I need now.

At some point she also said that she felt stronger now and that she didn�t want to go back to the person she was. She said that she was through with trying to figure out what people mean when the say something and that she would stop second guessing herself. If people have secret agenda and try to push it on her by saying other things, she would simply accept what has been said at face value and not try to get to the underlying message. After that she made allusion to our discussion on finance and how it had made her feel. I told her I understood and I again apologized for it. I also thanked her for helping me to see this behavior of mine and that I needed to improve this.

She then talked about some of the changes she noticed in me and how she thought I was doing well. She said she thought I was on the right track.

At one point, there was talk about changing behavior and I used the example of the ready response we have for someone apologizing (Don�t worry about it) and I told her that when I had told her that after she had apologized on Wednesday I had felt it took away from the courage it had taken for her to approach me and say she was sorry. I told her that the way I really felt about it was appreciative and thankful.

To this she said: �What apology?� and I had to gently remind her about the scene when she asked for a divorce and what she had said and how the following day she had come back all nice and said she was sorry for what she had said the previous day. For some reason, she seemed to have forgotten about it.

I then ended the discussion asking her if she had to go meet her friends with D8 and I left the house to get some parts to fix the washing machine.

All afternoon I felt horrible. I eventually met up with my friend and played some pool and had a few beers to try to get my mind off things but I just couldn�t shake myself. What it was, was not so much the R talk and how it came about but the coldness of W as she talked to me. I can see compassion in her eyes and I can hear concern in her voice but there is a certain determination in her manner that tells me that no matter what, she isn�t coming back. This ate at me all evening.

During the evening, I got a text from W saying that D8 decided to stay the night with her friend�s daughter so there would be no sleep-over tonight. I was a bit upset by that because I thought the idea was for them to spend as much time together as they could and even to spend the night together but now, D8 was on her own at W�s friend�s house. Nonetheless, I didn�t voice my disagreement and told her to do what she thought was best.

I left my friend�s house early and came back home and an hour later, W showed up unannounced to pick up the stuff she had brought over in prevision of spending the night. We had a nice chat and then? My second mistake. I just couldn�t help it and I flirted with her. I said well? You�re kidless and I�m kidless, how about we go for a cup of coffee? She hesitated but then said sure, why not?

We went to a nearby coffee stall where people sit on the ground (I always used to hate these) and W asked me if it was ok and I said it was. She said she looked forward to seeing me sit on the ground with my legs crossed to which I answered that I had gotten much more flexible since I started doing meditation. She watched me and was impressed. We had tea and invariably the conversation was brought on to my changes by W. Again, the whole thing is a bit blurry but some of the things which were talked about were about the fact that W thinks I�m being too hard on myself. She says I should try to relax a bit and enjoy life. I told her I was enjoying it as much as one could in my present situation and that perhaps I was being a bit hard on myself but I thought it was important because I didn�t want D8 to learn negative behaviours from my example. To this W agreed and said that this was 50% of the reason she did what she did a few months ago. To make sure D8 wouldn�t become the way she was. To this I wanted to tell her about D8�s advice to me a few days ago (if it�s too hard daddy, maybe you should give up. That�s what I do) but I didn�t, I simply said that kids often learn unexpected lessons from our behaviour . Later I realize I could have asked her what the other 50% was but again, I didn�t. Over all, I guess the conversation went well. She has noticed many changes in me and she told me that when D8 talks to others about me she has mentioned that I don�t get angry anymore. W said that she was impressed and that it was good. She said that she thought we were all doing great so that she thought this was the right choice. Again, that coldness and detachment as if we were lab rats being tested. I ended that meeting, said goodbye and left without looking back.

It�s hard for me to understand that she is so far removed from the situation and although I understand that she�s had much more time than me to get used to it, the fact that she kept saying how D8 was doing fine and that she would be just fine with all of this, and that we were both growing and becoming better individuals and that this was all good and justified her decision, makes me wonder if there is any hope left for us.

I also realize that this is not the main purpose of DBing but let�s face it, all of us would like a shot at a second chance with our S. In fact in the end, without the hope factor, how many of us would go through what we are going through to make ourselves better individuals?

I need to get that DR book soon. I feel so lost and I know that there is a different way to look at this but I can�t see it now. All I see is someone who looks at me like I could be her brother. There is some love, some caring but somehow, I fear I have lost her. What can I do?

Re-reading all of this (and rethinking about it) I also see that I lost my focus. I talked way too much and didn't keep the talk on her but actually used the opportunity to "show off" my "changes". I also started expecting stuff (what? that she would fall at my feet and say please take me back!!). I'm still to emotionally attached. I want her too much. I have to let her go. I just don't know how, and I'm afraid. Afraid to lose her, to lose my family, myself. Please, someone, I need some 2X4s here!!

Plans are made with friend with credit card. I'm ordering DR on Monday evening when she gets back in town.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

Well, I guess I�m headed for another sleepless night for tonight. The incredible saga continues by the looks of it. Just once I�d like to hold on to something stable for more than a day.

To be honest, I think I f@#%&d up majorly today, not once but twice, and I feel terrible now. I really must get that DR book fast. I feel like I�m right in the middle of a mine field and I don�t know how to get out of it.

Remind yourself that it's highly unlikely that ONE act or comment will ruin a marriage. Relax a bit. Give yourself a break. We ask that You Not believe anything that she says, and only half of what she does...so, relax...you get a bit of the same break.

This is what happened today. W picked up D8 from school and got here around noon. After yesterday�s high, I was looking forward to it but promised myself to give her space and not crowd her. I knew that her and D8 were going to go with some of W�s friends for the afternoon and that in the evening, they�d planned to be back here for the night and spend the night together to help alleviate the separation anxiety that D8 seems to be going through.

First of all, on arrival, the mood was strange and W stayed in the common room and barely spoke a word. She seemed very distant and I matched that by keeping away. I was practicing my guitar so I just kept doing that but felt uncomfortable. I decided to text a friend to ask if something was up this evening so I wouldn�t have to be here and I could then give W and D8 some space. That�s when I did a stupid mistake. The kind of mistake I hear about all the time but think it�s so stupid that I don�t know how one can do this. I mistakenly sent the text to W. The text said.

Hi (friend), what�s up this evening? W is here with the kid and the mood is heavy. I need to get out.

W then called me in the common room and told me of my mistake. I felt like such an idiot. I apologized to her and didn�t quite know what else to do. To this, she asked me if I was ok. I said yes and went back to the room. She followed me in, closed the door and sat on the bed, near me and asked again if I was ok. To this, I said I was and she told me that I always say that I�m ok. I told her she says the same and we laughed a bit. Then she asked me if I wanted to talk and I told her that the same way I can�t be there for her when she might need to talk because I�m too involved in the situation, she can�t be there for me either because she is also too involved in the situation.

talk LESS...period. The book may help you with this but you say too much and you hyper analyze. it's not helping you

Take a breath...

Then she said that maybe we should get a divorce. That it might make things better for me, for us. I asked her if she needed a divorce and she said that she didn�t. That it just would make things easier with others and that this shouldn�t matter anyway. I then gave her what I remembered of the �Denver� response.

I said that I didn�t want a divorce. I told her that if she wanted one, I would give it to her but that I was not going to help her get it. I said that I was still in love with her and that I still hoped we could reconcile in the future and work together on building a new relationship. I said that for now, I needed time to work on myself and that I understood she also needed time. I said that I would give her all the time and space she needs and that if one day she decided that she wanted to come back home, that she knew where she could find me.

I still say you talk too much but then again, one comment won't make much difference at any point, generally.

My point is, someday she'll have to see she might lose you. At the moment she doesn't care b/c she doesn't know if your changes are real.

If she comes to believe they are, then we'll see...

To this she of course said that I didn�t have to do this. I said that I understood and that there was no pressure on her. That I had no expectations and that the reason I was doing this was to be the person I wanted to be. She knows about the parable of the candle in the sun and I told her that this �darkness� that entered my life was an opportunity for me to be, and show myself, who I wanted to be. I told her that I actually thanked her for making the choices that she made. That I understood it must have been difficult, still was difficult but that by doing this she gave me the opportunity to change who I was and to become a better man.

A lot of what was said next is still a bit blurry in my mind but I know she said I shouldn�t wait for her and that if I met someone else I should just move on. To this I replied that I wasn�t �waiting� for her. That I was moving forward with my life to become the best person I could be for me and for D8. I also told her that for the time being, I needed to be alone to figure myself out and do what I needed to do. That is what I need now.

At some point she also said that she felt stronger now and that she didn�t want to go back to the person she was. She said that she was through with trying to figure out what people mean when the say something and that she would stop second guessing herself. If people have secret agenda and try to push it on her by saying other things, she would simply accept what has been said at face value and not try to get to the underlying message. After that she made allusion to our discussion on finance and how it had made her feel. I told her I understood and I again apologized for it. I also thanked her for helping me to see this behavior of mine and that I needed to improve this.

I don't know what she's referring to so I can't comment.

She then talked about some of the changes she noticed in me and how she thought I was doing well. She said she thought I was on the right track.

Great. Do NOT say much about this except that the changes are for YOU and that you are glad to be making them b/c they are the real you- the more "authentic you" etc...nothing about being happy SHE noticed.

NOT about her...got it?

At one point, there was talk about changing behavior and I used the example of the ready response we have for someone apologizing (Don�t worry about it) and I told her that when I had told her that after she had apologized on Wednesday I had felt it took away from the courage it had taken for her to approach me and say she was sorry. I told her that the way I really felt about it was appreciative and thankful.

To this she said: �What apology?� and I had to gently remind her about the scene when she asked for a divorce and what she had said and how the following day she had come back all nice and said she was sorry for what she had said the previous day. For some reason, she seemed to have forgotten about it.

You were talking too much...period...okay? Do you see that? So learn to STFU b/c sometimes the most loving thing to say is nothing.

I then ended the discussion asking her if she had to go meet her friends with D8 and I left the house to get some parts to fix the washing machine.

All afternoon I felt horrible. I eventually met up with my friend and played some pool and had a few beers to try to get my mind off things but I just couldn�t shake myself. What it was, was not so much the R talk and how it came about but the coldness of W as she talked to me. I can see compassion in her eyes and I can hear concern in her voice but there is a certain determination in her manner that tells me that no matter what, she isn�t coming back. This ate at me all evening.

Stop the analysis b/c you'll begin to have paralysis...

During the evening, I got a text from W saying that D8 decided to stay the night with her friend�s daughter so there would be no sleep-over tonight. I was a bit upset by that because I thought the idea was for them to spend as much time together as they could and even to spend the night together but now, D8 was on her own at W�s friend�s house. Nonetheless, I didn�t voice my disagreement and told her to do what she thought was best.

Stop having so many mind reading assumptions that set her up for failure. Your d8 was not "on her own" at some adults house, was she? really?

Come on. Relax. take the spotlight OFF your w and put it back on YOU and what you can control...

I left my friend�s house early and came back home and an hour later, W showed up unannounced to pick up the stuff she had brought over in prevision of spending the night. We had a nice chat and then? My second mistake. I just couldn�t help it and I flirted with her. I said well? You�re kidless and I�m kidless, how about we go for a cup of coffee? She hesitated but then said sure, why not?

Okay and you did this b/c...you were needy? I mean at SOME points it's fine to flirt--- but now? Not so fine.

This was literally hours after her repeated request for a divorce...so, Read the book.

We went to a nearby coffee stall where people sit on the ground (I always used to hate these) and W asked me if it was ok and I said it was.

Were you sulking? Whyd' she ask you SO MANY times if you were "okay"? Stop radiating your needs. That makes it all about YOU and you not meeting your own needs.

What is new about that?

She said she looked forward to seeing me sit on the ground with my legs crossed to which I answered that I had gotten much more flexible since I started doing meditation. She watched me and was impressed. We had tea and invariably the conversation was brought on to my changes by W. Again, the whole thing is a bit blurry but some of the things which were talked about were about the fact that W thinks I�m being too hard on myself. She says I should try to relax a bit and enjoy life.

valuable feedback...take it in and process it. People who are hard on themeslves are NOT easy on others.

I told her I was enjoying it as much as one could in my present situation and that perhaps I was being a bit hard on myself but I thought it was important because I didn�t want D8 to learn negative behaviours from my example.

isn't your d learning negatives if you sulk or get down on yourself too much and switch your cricitsm from them, to yourself, instead of simply NOT being negative?

To this W agreed and said that this was 50% of the reason she did what she did a few months ago. To make sure D8 wouldn�t become the way she was.

your d would become the way YOU were or the way your wife was? What and who does that mean?

To this I wanted to tell her about D8�s advice to me a few days ago (if it�s too hard daddy, maybe you should give up. That�s what I do) but I didn�t, I simply said that kids often learn unexpected lessons from our behaviour . Later I realize I could have asked her what the other 50% was but again, I didn�t. Over all, I guess the conversation went well.

She has noticed many changes in me and she told me that when D8 talks to others about me she has mentioned that I don�t get angry anymore. W said that she was impressed and that it was good. She said that she thought we were all doing great so that she thought this was the right choice.

meaning, it took THIS to get the changes in you. So? That's NOT bad. Don't mind read negatively so much.

The point isn't lost on her that if you do make the changes, then her "mission" worked and maybe she can come home.

Again, that coldness and detachment as if we were lab rats being tested. I ended that meeting, said goodbye and left without looking back.

It�s hard for me to understand that she is so far removed from the situation and although I understand that she�s had much more time than me to get used to it, the fact that she kept saying how D8 was doing fine and that she would be just fine with all of this, and that we were both growing and becoming better individuals and that this was all good and justified her decision, makes me wonder if there is any hope left for us.

what do you believe your options are?

being miserable and needy and clinging IS NOT MORE attractive. for all we know, she's testing you. And besides she has not mentioned how SHE is doing with all this.

I also realize that this is not the main purpose of DBing but let�s face it, all of us would like a shot at a second chance with our S. In fact in the end, without the hope factor, how many of us would go through what we are going through to make ourselves better individuals?

I like to think all of us.

I need to get that DR book soon. I feel so lost and I know that there is a different way to look at this but I can�t see it now. All I see is someone who looks at me like I could be her brother. There is some love, some caring but somehow, I fear I have lost her. What can I do?

Re-reading all of this (and rethinking about it) I also see that I lost my focus. I talked way too much and didn't keep the talk on her but actually used the opportunity to "show off" my "changes".

YES you did.

I also started expecting stuff (what? that she would fall at my feet and say please take me back!!). I'm still to emotionally attached. I want her too much. I have to let her go. I just don't know how, and I'm afraid. Afraid to lose her, to lose my family, myself. Please, someone, I need some 2X4s here!!

Plans are made with friend with credit card. I'm ordering DR on Monday evening when she gets back in town.

Get the book and let us know what you think.

And take a breath and focus on your d and your work and getting your finances in order. Period.

More later.

Originally Posted By: Arsene

What a loaded weekend this has been.

25yearsMLC, thanks for dropping by, and thanks for your comments. I am listening if not always acting on it.

I now realise I need to relax big time. I'm feeling stressed and needy as you said. I need to work harder on GAL and hopefully that will help me relax a bit and give myself a break.

it WILL help you to GAL. That's why we hammer it so much. It will relax you and take your mind off your situation 24/7 and you'll be able to let new things and new changes in you SINK IN....

Up to now, most of my efforts went on 180s and it looks like what I've done so far has been noticed. Now I need to make sure I stick with it and maintain the changes. Frankly, I feel good about them and yes I am a bit hard on myself but I don't want to be that other person anymore. I like who I'm slowly becoming.

Simply point it out NO MORE. IF anyone says anything you can be a tad surprised and say "Really? Well that's good b/c I've wanted to work on that for a while now..." AND IF it's your wife saying it, make it a SMALL thank you and change the topic of just STFU

I really hope I get the DR book fast. I'm sure it will help a lot. I've read the first chapter and a summary of the steps and it sounds very interesting.

Now, to carry on with my weekend, just tonight, W got back with D8 quite late and although I was a bit cross, I didn�t say anything and acted �as if� all was fine. I kept my passive aggressive behavior in check and received them happily with good humour and fun. Why would you be "Cross" anyhow? Examine that seemingly natural urge of yours. IT happens too much.

Your w is an adult and when d is with her, WIFE decides the activities. Unless they are literally dangerous things to do,why do you get to have an opinion on their activity or return time?

Maybe IF d8 has school EARLY in the morning then maybe it wasn't even intentional & they were simply late....but that's the only thing I can of mattering...

After D8 was in bed, W left the room and asked me to follow so I did. In the living room, she sat on the sofa and I joined her there. She then began to talk, and I listened (yes I know, kind of a 180 for me, isn�t it?).

another 180 would be to NOT talk. Have too much to do (GAL) and be too busy for another "Session" in which she shares all her thoughts at the moment/second and then you spend hours or days analyzing them. Be warm and polite but post pone or avoid all these endless talks.

A phrase you'll hear A LOT here, is

"Believe none of what they say and only half of what they DO."

THe constant temperature taking is NOT helping YOU.

She talked about many things and again mentioned how I looked happy. She said that she tells her friends that I seem much happier now. She even commented on my smile, saying that it was the smile of the �me� she met back then. She was glad I was becoming a better person and that she noticed that even D8 seemed much more relaxed around me.

this^^^ seems unecessary to keep saying. Are you asking her (indirectly or even non verbally) for some sort of feedback? That will come across as NEEDY and that cannot happen right now.

Assuming you are NOT asking for the feedback and she just keeps on giving it,
don't make it all bad. It might mean she's really noticing and wondering...

To you- it may SEEM like she's using your changes against you but it's not true. She may tell herself it "proves" she was right to leave (b/c you're FINALLY a new man--but would acting obnoxious make her feel "wrong" to leave? NO!)

AND 1) she'll wonder if leaving was really necessary or at least if staying away is necessary b/c after all, you are becoming a man only a fool would leave now...and

2) really Arsene, the alternatives to the changes you are making are-- what?

You losing your temper more, chewing her out for being so selfish, criticizing or belittling her or your d, or random cab drivers, or being so clingy and needy and pleading (pathetic)-

all those things are far worse and MUCH LESS ATTRACTIVE (as in, not at all attractive, as in repelling)...so that's out anyhow.

Also, maybe she is testing the so called changes which have been how long now? A month? A week? IT's a drop in the bucket for now.

3) as I like to say, "do the math"...

Small consistent changes + sufficient time = change she can believe in.

She then talked about the past. About how she used to be afraid to come in the house when she got back from work, in the night. How she would stay in the car until the mosquitoes would drive her in. She said she didn�t know why, she just didn�t look forward to being back in my presence. She talked about how one day I got yelling at some other driver in traffic and how she observed the scene wondering who this man next to her was. She said that she probably should have said something but that she didn�t have the confidence to do so. That she just wanted to keep the peace. Then she broke down in tears and I took her hand and put my arm around her. She cried a bit and then I pulled back, our hand still in each other�s.

other than gaining insights into how miserable she was and how intimidating or demeaning you were to her, most of this is simply water under the bridge.

While I see value in you showing that you now CAN LISTEN & HEAR her...and that the new you would NOT do that bad thing again OR had no idea it was happening, and that you CARE about hurting her...

Learn to adopt 2 phrases that don't allow for negative spiralling but that validate, do Not escalate, AND show change on your end. For when she goes over the marital history-
FIRST-

1) When she brings up something 'real' from the past like an event hurt her & for which you feel at least partly responsible (or totally) responsible for hurting her, say

"W, I'm so sorry that hurt you. If I had it to do all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."

2) if she recalls an event you have NO recall of, OR a very different recall of, you do not deny it, you say
"Wow, I sure don't remember it that way, but I'm sorry if you were hurt...

(And if need be, depending on the situation, ADD)

and If anything like that happened now, I'd handle it differently."

Then move the topic along. Learn those^^^ phrases by heart. They will help you without making you feel like doormat and without making it worse and hopefully remind her that things indeed would be different.

Never forget your real goal is that she return and she'll ONLY RETURN if she believes marriage to you could be better/different than before.

Sure, it might still be too late. But it's your best chance of a recon. And if the only reason you are changing is to get her back - which is a tactic and not a change, it'll fail. And it'll be harder than ever to get her to believe in any real changes in the future.

She has a long grievance list of your transgressions that she has held in a long time. She never felt safe in sharing them with you. So now being able to, is a good sign.

BUT beware.

The only point of her grievance list is to vent and explain AND if you get something out of it (like a recon mission where you insights from her as to what she needs that she wasn't getting from you, FINE.)

And if you needed to practice just listening, FINE, do it. If an apology is required of you, GIVE IT..note, they don't recall the apologies as well as the insults/hurts so it usually requires repetition at first. But you will get to a point (NOT NOW by a long shot)

in which no more apologies are going to help you & might be counter productive. IF you get a chance to read Crimson's thread, you'll see what I mean.

You already realize she forgot her "apology" to you, and for some unknown reason you brought it up. She had forgotten it (or did not see it as an apology), and then YOU REMINDED her of it...which meant you were reminding her of her admission of fault...and how generously YOU see yourself for being forgiving --which is the opposite of the effect it probably had on her...

NOTE TO SELF: don't herald or highlight behavior that most people consider just normal courtesy.

Plus once you saw that she had forgotten it, you needed to drop that (or not bring it up at all.)

We talked a bit about the city where we lived when D8 was born and how this event probably started me on my anger journey. She�d told me in the past that she had resented me back then for being more distant, a thing that I didn�t remember. Now, she got into how she felt alone after the birth, how she felt inadequate and unattractive and how she carried the weight of parenthood by herself. She said she wished I had been more involved in taking care of D8. I thought I had been but nonetheless, I validated and told her I understood how she might have felt that. We both agreed that there should be education on such things in high school.

Other things she mentioned were about never being in control. She felt that she was again keeping the peace by simply agreeing to whatever was on the table.

doesn't this^^^ all pretty much resonate with you as being valid? Doing lessons with your d isn't the hard or most meaninful part of parenting.As I recall that was your "activity" or interaction w/her til recently.

So it means you are on the right track about the changes you are making, correct?

She felt that I resented her for not working (a real job) and bringing home an income. She quoted something I had apparently said in a situation where I told her that I had to go to work every day to provide for us and that all I was asking her to do was to support me when I had a bad day.

did you want her to earn more or not? Did you want her to stay at home w/d8 or not? Is all this her fears talking?

as for you having a bad day at work, versus her being a SAHM, I have to tell you I've done both. I PREFER going to work (though I don't regret the time with our children) at least part time -where I get pats on the back and bonuses and respect

over being home all day with one child. ESPECIALLY if my h came home and instead of giving ME a break from nonstop child care, expects ME to "support him after a bad day" (which =he is having a bad MOOD and I have to put up with it AND he probably does not care or ask about MY day and it does not occur to him to give ME support after a bad day)...he wants me to just TAKE his bad mood and lashing out

b/c that's what a supportive partner does??? Hmmm, not sure I buy that. Do you?

I told her I didn�t remember the event but that I�m sure that at times I might have said something like that or even show resentment but I assured her that I never actually felt that way.

what did you resent? And if you never actually felt that way, why'd you have resentment? I'm not clear here. Did you simply have a lousy negative attitude on things and take it out on the loved ones closest to you?

You wouldn't be the first, but I'm simply not clear on this statement.

I said that I understood how she felt but that I felt that I had always supported her in her music. That I never wanted her to have to work a job for the local salary when she could be working on her music.

You are arguing^^^ with her MEMORIES. STFU. "Listen without defending. Speak without offending."

I also said that it had always been important to me that she did what she wanted and that although my words, at times, didn�t support that, I believed my actions had always supported that. She agreed that I had supported her and respected her choices that way.

so she did a complete 180 in her opinion, OR you bullied her into agreeing or what?

She said that she didn�t know how to behave/react while I was going through my depression (neither of us knew I was going through a depression at the time), and that she wished she had talked to me then.

would it have made any difference to you to have her tell you, then? Be honest. Would it? Would you have said "OMG I need help" and gotten it?

And when you say "depression" does that mean you got treatment for it?

And when you say "depression" is that the whole negative critical outbursts chronically happening?

She said that she was beginning to feel more confident and that she felt happy at the moment, especially that I seemed to be happy as well. She said that we were all going through a process. That sometimes, she hears her girlfriends talk about their marital problems and asks herself why people bother going through that? I told her that maybe there is a balance and you accept the bad so you can get at the good. She agreed but still wonder what the point was.

"She agreed BUT wonder what the point was" THAT is "NOT" agreeing....this is you arguing your case, again. Stop it. Did you get the 37/40 rules for newbies yet? I can't recall but at least live by THEM until you get the books...

It was a good talk, with laughter and smiles, eye contact, reminiscing and an overall good feeling for both of us. I kept my mouth shut for the most and validated her feelings whenever I could. We didn�t talk about the future but the eye contact and the smiles were encouraging. Nonetheless, I�m quite sure I�m in for a long journey as she mentioned at one point that she didn�t know where her self-esteem issues stemmed from but that she was slowly resolving them. But it�ll take some time, she said.
I�m thankful for this evening. I have a feeling that we can become friends again.

And most importantly, I managed to STFU, most of the time.

Thanks again 25yearsMLC, I had just read your reply before this happened so the advice was fresh. I'll focus on that in future convos.

Okay remember mostly that this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Don't take the temperature of the marriage so much. Like only once a month. Set it as a goal. OR "have a conversation with w that does NOT include me defending myself or explaining myself"...that could be a short term goal.
Along with "have fun w/D8 and do not tell w about it unless she asks and then be vague, lest she think I'm using d8 as a tool to get her back".

Your w will hear from d8 how much fun you two had. Let her hear it from HER, not you.

Make sense?

I'll post the "Rules for Newbies" next, so you can read them for now.

((( )))

These are "Rules" for newcomers assembled/organized by Sandi, consisting of principles based on MWD's Div Busting approach, (& edited SLIGHTLY by yours truly). I recommend you copy and paste & print it out. Carry it in your pocket if you have to. I know I did.

FOR WHEN YOU GET "THE BOMB"�.

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then, don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.) In short, No Snooping.

11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne/perfume, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say � get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, join something, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15. When at home with your spouse, do 180s� (so if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her to initiate), then be rather scarce or minimal with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short & simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don� t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren�t speaking, but don�t be overly talkative.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! (No matter what time he/she comes home.) You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy YOUR life and time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life too.

17. ***You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.***

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it. The supposed changes will look like "tactics" to get them back & then they won't believe the changes are lasting.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive & fun to be with. (As hard as this is, remember that angry, sad, pouting people do NOT ATTRACT others to them). The FUN somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patience on your behalf.

21. Never lose your cool! Never lose your temper! (That reinforces their choice to leave). Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill or be over the top in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24. Be patient��VERY, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels like the opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do NOT interrupt them when they are speaking, OR correct them, and stop what you may be working on or doing, to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying. (Listening better never hurts.)

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell). Silence can be the loving thing to "not say."

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Calmness is soothing to the calm person AND their "audience". Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only, NOT your spouse. The more you tell them what you are doing (or trying to show them) the more your actions will seem manipulative & insincere.

29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write or a single dramatic gesture. (Not saying not to do/say those too, but focus on consistent changes, over time. That earns the spouse's belief in the changes).

30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever, & even when you truly feel desperate & needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse. Very important that you get this concept.

31. When you communicate with your spouse, do not focus on yourself; instead, focus on them. If in person, make eye contact.

32. Do not believe any of what THEY SAY and less than 50% of what THEY DO. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared, AND OR, b/c they want to justify their leaving.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes! Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day, unless absolutely necessary. (That means only in urgent matters.)

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

38. Do Not convince yourself that being miserable or sad shows how much you care for your spouse. It's not attractive or appealing, period.

39. If there is OW/OM in the picture, don't focus on them. BE the better choice, which means being a spouse only a fool would leave.

40. Know that you really will be alright in the long run, that your personal work will yield good things regardless of the choices others make. You will be happy again.

41. NO EXPECTATIONS of outcome, one way, or the other.

Hi 25,

Thanks for your words and guidance once again.

It will relax you and take your mind off your situation 24/7 and you'll be able to let new things and new changes in you SINK IN...."

God knows I really need that right now. This has got to be the most exhausting 3 months I have ever been through.

Simply point it out NO MORE. IF anyone says anything you can be a tad surprised and say "Really? Well that's good b/c I've wanted to work on that for a while now..." AND IF it's your wife saying it, make it a SMALL thank you and change the topic of just STFU

Got you.

Why would you be "Cross" anyhow? Examine that seemingly natural urge of yours. IT happens too much.

Your w is an adult and when d is with her, WIFE decides the activities. Unless they are literally dangerous things to do,why do you get to have an opinion on their activity or return time?

Maybe IF d8 has school EARLY in the morning then maybe it wasn't even intentional & they were simply late....but that's the only thing I can of mattering...

I don't mean to go on the defensive here and I do know that I have a huge tendency to judge and criticize others, which I am working on. This is why I express these thoughts here instead of to W.

The issue here is that D8 has been coming down with a cold lately and that we get up at 5 am for her to get ready for school which starts at 7 am. Her regular bedtime during the week is 8 pm but when she is a bit under the weather, it can be as early as 7 pm. W knows that and yet, they got here at 9 pm and D8 still had to prepare her things for school and take a shower. In the end, she didn't go to bed before nearly 10 pm and this morning was exhausted and very difficult to get out of bed and through her morning routines.

I also agree that what W does during her time with D8 is none of my business, however, with regards to this weekend, which was meant to bring W and D8 closer as D8 had been having a hard time coping with her mom not being around. I have to disagree with the fact that W dropped D8 at her friend's house Saturday afternoon and picked her up Sunday afternoon at 3 pm (at which point she spent from 3 - 9 pm with her). This is not going to help D8 cope with the abandonment issues she might feel about her mom. Nonetheless, other than a kindly expressed concern, I didn't pursue the matter further and managed to keep my passive aggressive behaviour in check.

another 180 would be to NOT talk. Have too much to do (GAL) and be too busy for another "Session" in which she shares all her thoughts at the moment/second and then you spend hours or days analyzing them. Be warm and polite but post pone or avoid all these endless talks.

A phrase you'll hear A LOT here, is

"Believe none of what they say and only half of what they DO."

THe constant temperature taking is NOT helping YOU.

Agreed. I am nonetheless happy that last night occured but I want to try to make myself less available for these talks, for now. I find it a lot to process but considering this was really the first time she spoke about herself (and that I listened - mostly) I wouldn't have missed it for the world. It felt overall pretty good and I slept soundly, which doesn't happen often.

this^^^ seems unecessary to keep saying. Are you asking her (indirectly or even non verbally) for some sort of feedback? That will come across as NEEDY and that cannot happen right now.

No. I didn't. At least not this time and as for the other times, I don't think I have elicited any of this. The comments come from her.

Also, maybe she is testing the so called changes which have been how long now? A month? A week? IT's a drop in the bucket for now.

3) as I like to say, "do the math"...

Small consistent changes + sufficient time = change she can believe in.

I've been back for 3 weeks but been working on many of these issues (especially the anger one) for about 3 months now, since I received her bomb email.

I understand what you are saying. I am working on it and I realize it's not going to be resolved tomorrow.

Learn to adopt 2 phrases that don't allow for negative spiralling but that validate, do Not escalate, AND show change on your end. For when she goes over the marital history-
FIRST-

1) When she brings up something 'real' from the past like an event hurt her & for which you feel at least partly responsible (or totally) responsible for hurting her, say

"W, I'm so sorry that hurt you. If I had it to do all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."

2) if she recalls an event you have NO recall of, OR a very different recall of, you do not deny it, you say
"Wow, I sure don't remember it that way, but I'm sorry if you were hurt...

(And if need be, depending on the situation, ADD)

and If anything like that happened now, I'd handle it differently."

Point taken. I have written them down and will make them part of my repertoire.

NOTE TO SELF: don't herald or highlight behavior that most people consider just normal courtesy.

Plus once you saw that she had forgotten it, you needed to drop that (or not bring it up at all.)

Yeah, Got you.

doesn't this^^^ all pretty much resonate with you as being valid? Doing lessons with your d isn't the hard or most meaninful part of parenting.As I recall that was your "activity" or interaction w/her til recently.

So it means you are on the right track about the changes you are making, correct?

Right again.

did you want her to earn more or not? Did you want her to stay at home w/d8 or not? Is all this her fears talking?

The situation in this country is that most middle class families (which we were) have maids to do all the chores. Some westerners can't get used to the idea of having someone living in their house but in my view it was essential as I didn't want to W to spend her time doing this when we had an alternative (Maids salaries are very affordable and with both of us working in the evenings, There was no other alternative anyways). At some time W attempted to get a job and was offered 150 USD per months to work 40 hours per week for a school. This is what I made in 2 days and I told her then that if she wanted to do it for herself she should but if it was for the money, she didn't have to. I rather she worked on her music, which is what she has always wanted to do.

I may seem like I am defending myself here but at some point I think I have to. I want to take responsibility for my actions and I have faced the music. But I assure you that I supported my W in every of her endeavours. I have encouraged her to pursue her music and to grow and expand her horizons. In her good days, she has often thanked me for this and to me, it was only natural. I married her not to wash my clothes and raise my kids. I married her because I viewed her as and equal (in fact, even more than that - my friends told me I always kept her on a pedestal).
I always respected who she wanted to be and who she was. She was my companion. My friend.

I guess at some point, around when D8 was born, I forgot how to show her and I know I changed in many ways which weren't good but I was never a dead beat father. I have made sure I spent lots of time with D8, throughout her life, no matter what W might say now. I know I haven't been perfect but who has? I'm willing to improve and work on myself but d@$%& it!! I have not been half as bad as she paints me now. I know you may see a different picture and for all I know you may be right. If you are it has never been my intention, and still I have NOT been a bad husband or father. I have always taken my responsibilities and been there for my family. I don't drink, I don't go out with friends until all hours of the night, I don't womanize. I'm caring. and the list goes on. BUT... I went through a tough period. and this changed me in ways I hate to see. I have done things which are not within my character. And for that, I am sorry. Really sorry.

(I apologize for this venting. It's just that I don't understand how I can regain self-esteem if I keep taking all of this and feeling the way i do without saying how it was from my side. I know this is not the time or space for this but isn't there a possibility that she wasn't always there? That she wasn't always that perfect mother?)

would it have made any difference to you to have her tell you, then? Be honest. Would it? Would you have said "OMG I need help" and gotten it?

And when you say "depression" does that mean you got treatment for it?

And when you say "depression" is that the whole negative critical outbursts chronically happening?

How could I get treatment for something I (we) didn't see at the time. No, it's just rehashing through stuff at a later date that friends who have been through depression or been with people going through depression who have told me that they thought I had been gong through something of the sort. I know you might think I am trying to pas on the blame. It maybe so. But the person she married wasn't all as bad as what is being depicted here.

Listen 25, I'm sorry if i seem resistant to a lot of this but as you say all the time, believe nothing they say. Well I do believe a lot of what she says and I am facing my responsibilities in this but this re-writing of our history doesn't seem fair to me. I take it from her and "try" (though not always successfully) not to defend myself, and I realize that you are trying to help me see things from a different perspective (and for this I am eternally grateful) but the man that she remembers, and the man you see through her eyes, is not the man who she married and who I was up until a few years ago.

Thanks so much for all of this though. I feel a lot better now and I think I am ready to start doing some GAL.

I'm off to a job interview now. Wish me luck.

(and really, thank you for being here.)

I got the list, and thanks KD for #41. I think I should get this one tattooed somewhere.

DB friends. I know I'm not the easiest person to deal with right now and I apologize for this. I do feel like I'm reacting too much and not thinking things through enough.

I know that it's been three months now and that I should be getting used to this situation but bear with me. I'm struggling to keep up with the pace and get some sort of security/stability for D8 at the same time.

I'm getting all of what you are telling me, and more, through spending my sleepless nights reading others' sitches.

I feel bad because I feel like I should be contributing more but I can hardly focus on my own sitch right now and I feel like I babble when I comment on others'.

I know that I must read the book. I've read the 1st chapter and some other summary pdf file I found online and tonight. In fact, I'm presently waiting for a friend in a cafe to finally order DR and another 4 or 5 books mentioned on this site (Love must be tough, Compelled to control, After the affair, the 5 love languages and codependent no more).

What I really want to say here, is that I do appreciate your help, your time and your advice.

I'm moving along slowly, but moving along (no need to rush, everyone tells me I'm in for a long ride

).

Today, I had a job interview which ended up being a partnership proposal. I'm meeting him again on Friday. I also took up meditation lessons for free from the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University (recommended by my C) and approached one of the universities where they offer language lessons to go and learn the local language (the cost is too high for me for now but I want to meet the director to try to see if I can pay for it in exchange for my teaching English). Yesterday, I met with a friend guitarist and we planned some songs to learn in order to start a duet of some sort.

I also plan to travel out of town for a few days next week to explore the possibility of doing some sort of import/export business.

On the fun side, I need to make another circle of friends so I've spoken to one of my friend's who is in the Hash Harriers and asked her if I could join and start hiking with them. I'm still waiting for an answer on starting dance lessons as well. The problem is that I don't have money to splurge right now so we're back to square one. I need a job, soon.

Please don't give up on me, I feel like I'm starting to climb the hill again. I'll get there, soon. I just needed some time to make sense of things, figure out what I really did and what was just in her mind. I still don't know but I was never as bad as she makes me sound. I need to regain my self confidence, my self esteem, I need to find who the real me is, now, as there is no point in feeling guilty for the past. I need to forgive myself, because now, I feel like the worst piece of sh@$%t in the world, but I know it's not true. that is not who I am, and this is giving me the chance to prove it to myself. I'm a much better person than what I've been in the last few years and i 'm a much better person than what my W thinks of me right now.

Thanks for listening. This is just venting but it helps, somehow.

Ok, here is an update on my life.

Managed to order DR and Love Must Be Tough last night(just couldn't afford the others right now - even this is setting me back quite a bit)and with the express delivery, I should get them before the 13th of this month or at least I hope so because on the 15th everything is closed for the end of fasting holiday and even couriers (UPS, DLL, TNT) close shop for 10 days.

Today, I started my meditation lessons which I think are going to help me with my 180s. The whole concept is about replacing your "old" thoughts with new ones. I enjoyed the lesson and I know i can learn a lot about figuring myself out.

I also got myself a massage to help me relax and then I spoke to the director of the language training centre of one of the local universities about teaching English in exchange for lessons in the local language. He seemed receptive to the idea and I might even get a job out of it.

By the way, my job interview of yesterday wasn't really for a job but for a partnership.

When W found the school where we registered out D8, she met the owner who is a very nice man. They talked at length then and she was inquiring as to the possibility of getting work there for herself as a music or English teacher. Apparently at that time, the talk turned to me and the owner expressed an interest about me and that is how I managed to get the interview.

Problem is, W never told this man about our sitch and during the interview he expressed that he would love for me and W to meet him and his W to further discuss how we can work together.

I didn't know what to say then so I told him I'd talk to my W about it, which I did, in as detached a way as can be possible. At first she seemed kind of interested and when she went to pick up D8, that afternoon, she even told the staff that we would be there for the meeting.

This morning, I got a text from her where she stated that she thought some more about it and that she wasn't comfortable with it anymore and that she thought we should tell the owner about our status. I simply replied that I understood and that I would tell the owner of the school today when I picked up D8.

This I did and the owner of the school was shocked and saddened by this news. He asked me why I didn't want to be with my W and I corrected him saying that it was the other way around. he also asked me if I still loved my wife and I told him I did. I then had to excuse myself and leave. I had forgotten how nosy/inquisitive the locals were.

I hate the fact that W decides to leave and I'm the one who has to tell people about it. I had to break it gently to D8 and many of our mutual friends, and now this. I guess it's no one's business but on the other hand I don't really know what to tell people when they ask. Ironically that's one of the reason W said she'd wanted a Divorce last week. To make it easier to tell people about it. I told her then that I understood but that it really was no one's business, what we were going through. And now this!

Nonetheless, the owner's parting words were "I'll contact you later. I need you to be a part of this". I'm not sure what that means exactly. I don't know if I got the "job" and if I do, what the terms will be so I'm still on the look out for something until this becomes more concrete.

I'm still a bit in the dumps but using the meditation techniques is helping me to keep things in perspective. I think it'll also help me detach as some of the main "sins" we need to get rid of to achieve "inner peace", according to the guru, include anger, greed, lust and attachments, all of which I could do without.

Thanks for sticking around.

Cheers!

Middle of the night. Just woke from a dream where W and I were still together, in the same bed, but she can't stand the sight of me. It hurts.

At bedtime, W called D8. D8 asked me again about whether mom will ever come back and how she wants us to be a happy family again. D8 started crying, which brought tears to me eyes. I hugged her and told her that I wasn't giving up. That I would do every thing I could to get her family back. I told her that I loved her and her mom more than anything and I asked her to be patient, and to be strong. She made me promise I'd never give up. I told her I would try as hard as I could.

I looked at my phone just now. There's a text from W, sent a few hours ago. She asks if I'm busy. I'm afraid to answer. I'm not going to. I was sleeping. I'm afraid to hear what he wants to tell me.

Woke up to another dream this morning. This time, W and I were friends. We kissed and it was good. We were still separated but I think it looked like we were on the path to reconciliation.

I guess that means anything is possible. But I need to focus on, NO EXPECTATIONS!!!

Off for my meditation class and my session with IC. I hope I can find the strength I need right now.

I guess I'll have to see W this afternoon when I get back home. I hope everything goes well and that I just let my imagination run wild last night.

I look forward to reading any of you. I feel like I'm being given the silent treatment.

What do you need advice on?

Hi MrBond,

I don't need advice. I'm just journalling, I guess. keeping track of my feelings and my thoughts.

Today's been a bit weird. It turns out the owner of D8's school called my W in to have a chat this morning.

By the time I got back home from my meditation class and my C, wife was here and she was pretty angry (for once, not at me). apparently, the owner of the school tried to convince her (bully her) into going back to her family. He's apparently a qualified psychologist, yet his "techniques" included telling W that under the laws of this country, she would get the child and that she was unable to support D8 therefore she should just come back to the couple. Other Psychology "techniques" included using guilt to force her back and even going so far as to tell her that I was in tears while i told him about the fact that we were separated (which I was not). He also tried to bully her by saying that if she didn't come back to me, that the deal about the partnership was not going to happen.

Of course W was upset, and frankly, so was I but while she went on about this guy, I remembered that this is the kind of nosy attitude that had got to me a few years ago when I was going through my depression. People not minding their business and coming into your home to tell you how to live your life. I validated her but I also told her that this is what was to be expected in this part of the country and that she probably shouldn't take it too personally. I'm sure he had the best of intentions but just went at it the wrong way. she agreed and we had a laugh about it.

One thing she said that struck me was that she was tired of every one telling her what she should do. She expressed that many people have told her that she was not justified doing what she was doing and that she should go back to her couple. That I was not as bad as she had told them. She said that she felt that everyone put in question her decision and that this made her feel stupid. She said that she wasn't stupid and that she had put a lot of thought into this decision and that her actions were based on her perspective. She wondered why no one understood that and why they had to undermine her decision. I validated without giving my opinion on this.

The rest of the afternoon went very well and we had a good time. I felt strong after my meditation and my C so I was able to be friendly and pleasant and we had a good laugh over all.
There was no R talk and I still felt some distance but at least, she feels comfortable enough to spend some time with me. I didn't follow her around, in fact i just sat in the living room playing guitar and she's the one who came around, offering me a cup of coffee and sitting by me.
I felt great because for some reasons, I didn't feel needy or pushy. The meditation seems to be working.

BTW, my C told me that W had complained about being emotionally abused when she saw her a few years ago but that after hearing my side of the story, C thought that maybe W was being a bit selfish and behaving like a kid having a tantrum.

I don't really know what to make of all of this. This is a country where women get beaten regularly, where a man can have up to 4 wives and he can force them to wear a scarf and to stay at home. A country where women have little or no voice yet, my W who always had my support, and who was able to pursue her career as a singer, working in bars until the wee hours of the morning, who was allowed, no, encourage to speak her opinion freely and who was respected and treated as an equal apparently said I was abusing her emotionally. Frankly, I thought about it, and spoke to a friend about this tonight and we both think that this is insane. He knows that I have always respected her and he's been a good friend of the family since the beginning. In his opinion, this is re-writing history. I also thought the same thing but being involved as i am, thought that maybe i wa missing something but now i don't think so. Even the C thought that this couldn't be after having met me a few times and hearing my side of the story.

I'm aware that it does take two to tango and as i said earlier, I do accept my lion's share of the responsibility, and I have worked/am working on that very seriously but i really don't think that me being a husband who didn't quite know how to love his wife equates t emotional abuse. i have never called her names, swore at her or treated her without respect. I have used guilt to manipulate her (subconsciously), I have critisized her and I have been impatient. I have also been angry about other events in her company, but very rarely has this anger been towards her (if at all). I have tried to fix things instead of being supportive with no expectation of a specific outcome and i have often discussed a point until I was right. Mea Culpa. I guess if all of this constitutes emotional abuse I am guilty.

I imagine that taken out of context, without all of the good things in our relationship, this might do the trick but there were so many good, happy moments in our relationship that I sincerely don't think so.

That's it for now.

You're doing well so far. She could be in a 'victim' mode where she wants people to feel sorry for her. Well I'm sorry to tell you that if there's a mom who leaves her child for her own selfish needs, then you probably aren't going to get much sympathy from anyone.

And in fact, she probably did demonize you to others in order to justify her decision. All WAS's do that. You should have heard what my W accused me of. Let her deal with her own craziness.

Originally Posted By: MrBond

She could be in a 'victim' mode where she wants people to feel sorry for her. from anyone.

And in fact, she probably did demonize you to others in order to justify her decision. All WAS's do that. You should have heard what my W accused me of. Let her deal with her own craziness.

Ain't that the truth. My H can make me sound like the worst person on the face of the planet. I cannot tell you how many people have told me that my H said all kinds of nasty stuff about me, but the more they learned about him and me, the more they learned he was the problem. That's not to say that I don't have my share of problems and haven't contributed to the marital issues. I'm also dealing with "victim" mode.

You know in your mind and heart how you treated her. Remember, we're only supposed to believe 1/2 of what we hear.

they never tell your side of the story.

Thanks MrBond, Hopefulinga and scaredsilly,

It helps to hear what you guys think of the situation. I can see the victim in her so much but there's also a side of her which seems to be playing ostrich. She's got her head in the sand and refuses to see what she's doing or hear what others are saying.

There comes a time when you have to tell yourself that if everyone is saying the same thing, there must be some truth in it but I feel that for now, she might still be infatuated with OM, no matter how hard it is in this country to have an affair (you need to show a marriage certificate to get a room with a woman and police regularly raids seedy hotels and puts adulterers in jail - Boarding houses are unisex and many have curfews).

As someone was saying earlier in my thread (maybe 25), they aren't having a great time at it because I also don't think that the A is in the open within her circle of friends. People here are very judgmental and put a lot of weight on character (even though they is a lot of hypocrisy).

Strangely enough, I do feel better. I think I might be over the "feeling sorry for myself" stage and moving on to acceptance. More on this later.

Thanks,

"refuses to see what she's doing or hear what others are saying."

No. She is seeing what she's doing and hearing what others are saying. She's just CHOOSING to not see them as negatives. She's seeing this as an opportunity for her to finally be free and be whom she's always wanted to be. She can now drop the chains and burden of a husband and child and live the life she's always wanted. Of course, she's blocked out the fact that she also chose to get married in the first place.

You're accepting the fact that you can't force her to change and that change must be made on her own. This is a good thing. What are your plans for your D?

Thanks MrBond for putting things in perspective. Unfortunately, a new event just took place and it also puts things in a different light for me.

Now I need advice. My D8 just told me that her mom picked her up from school with OM. Now last week (or ten days ago), me and W had agreed that we would not expose D8 to our romantic involvements yet D8 seemed quite familiar with OM's name and surname so I asked her if she often saw him and she said sometimes.

What do I do with that. I don't want D8 to see her mom's boyfriend. Not now anyway. Maybe once we are divorced and she has been with him for at least a year, but not while we are in this situation. What can I do about it? What should I do? Should I try to gently remind her of the boundaries we'd set? Should I forbid her from seeing D8? Or taking her out?
I don't know anymore. why is she lying like that? Why is she even doing that? doesn't she realise the pain and anguish she is causing and the possible impact on D8?

Why is it that every time I think I'm getting a hang on things she changes the plan.

I'm getting sick of this. I don't know if I can manage this much longer. Maybe I should just leave this country with D8. Especially so that I heard from lawyer yesterday that the law here state that the child always stays with the mother, especially if the father is expat. I don't want to lose my D8 because of this. What can I do now?

"My D8 just told me that her mom picked her up from school with OM. Now last week (or ten days ago), me and W had agreed that we would not expose D8 to our romantic involvements yet D8 seemed quite familiar with OM's name and surname so I asked her if she often saw him and she said sometimes."

I read through all of your threads and I don't see anywhere that she actually agreed to not exposing to your D8. In fact, alot of it was about what YOU didn't want to happen.

Well at least now you know why she was so upset at the school person. She's guilty, feels ashamed, but instead of confronting it as something wrong, she blames everyone else. Even you.

"I don't want D8 to see her mom's boyfriend. Not now anyway."

There's nothing you can really do about it unless there's a law in the country you're at.

What should I do? Should I try to gently remind her of the boundaries we'd set?"

Again, I don't see where you had set any boundaries. In fact, you never told her that she couldn't see anyone. In any case, if you demand that she stop seeing OM, then she'll get upset, call you controlling and take your child away.

"Should I forbid her from seeing D8? Or taking her out?"

Can't do that unless there's a law there. Plus you said no matter what, you would let D8 see her mom.

"why is she lying like that?"

Because she wants to. She's afraid to tell the truth.

"Why is she even doing that?"

Because she sees you as not being together anymore so she feels she can see whomever she wants to.

"doesn't she realise the pain and anguish she is causing and the possible impact on D8?"

Her feelings for the OM are probably overtaking those things.

"Why is it that every time I think I'm getting a hang on things she changes the plan."

That's why I keep saying to stop analyzing everything she's doing. You've been wrong every time.

"Maybe I should just leave this country with D8."

Then you're just using your D8 to punish your W. It would make you no better than her.

"I don't want to lose my D8 because of this. What can I do now?"

Talk to a L and find out what your legal rights are. Then stop enabling her. Stop helping her. Stop making excuses for her behavior. Stop giving her money. Stop planning things between your D and her. Tell her that you will not live in an open marriage and that as long as OM was in the picture. If she threatens you, tell her what the L has told you and that she can have the papers filed because you are done and the OM can have her.

I'll go talk to L again tomorrow. What I was told so far is that I have no legal rights in this country. I don't exist. I'm not even on the family card (a document stating the family hierarchy).

I was also told that a divorce was difficult to get because both of us have to go to the place we were married (my MIL's city - 2-hour flight) in order to even file for it. Then there is a lengthy process which includes mediation by the imam and some officials. From what I hear, this is kind of a grilling of the couple, meant to intimidate people and make them reconsider. In Most case it works because around here, no one wants to wash their dirty laundry in the open.

Then there is more paperwork and the divorce might still be refused if the mediators don't think there are good enough reasons. I was told that in the best of cases, it could take a minimum of 3 months to make it final.

One of the things I was also told was that the children always go to the mother. Now this is what I want to find out about since in our case, W is walking away and pretty much living outside of the cultural boundaries of her country. For what she is doing now, she would get caned in one of the stricter parts of the country.

One the other hand I was also told that even without a Divorce, W and OM could just bribe an imam to get some unofficial marriage certificate (which is what is usually issued for the second, third and fourth wife). Now, my W being Buddhist on her ID card might make this a bit difficult (mixt marriages ar not allowed) but then again, if the bribe is big enough anything is possible.

I will talk to lawyer about exactly what my options are. BTW, when I talked about leaving the country with D8, it wasn't to get even with W, it was to make sure D8 is not taken away from me because of a law which doesn't see me as a person.

So basically, from what you are saying, there is nothing I can say to W about this. Could I not tell her how I felt when I found out and ask her to please refrain? At least for the time being. Do I have to take every thing she throws at me without saying a word? Is there a way that this could be addressed?

I just had a look again at my thread and you are right, I don't seem to have talked about an instance where I told her I didn't think it as a good idea for us to introduce D8 to our OP, if any. At that point she had gotten a bit upset and turned away but had said that she agreed as well. Now I know, Believe nothing they say.

"That's why I keep saying to stop analyzing everything she's doing. You've been wrong every time."

I have, haven't I?

I've calmed down. I'm glad I vented here and with a friend of mine. I guess I won't do anything for now. I'm expecting DR in a few days and I'd told W I might take a few days out of town. She'd offered to take care of D8, I'm a bit nervous about that but I'll think about it some more. I asked D8 if she would like to go somewhere for the Idul Fitri Holiday and she seems to be open to something. That might be good too. It'll give me time to catch up on DR and figure out how to DB properly.

What is your opinion? Can any harm be done by exposing D8 to OM? The bast@#$d got my W and now he wants my D8 too, and I should just let it happen? It's tough. I'm torn.

You are right, I don't want t tell her what to do about OM because she's already expressed that she was tired of every one trying to tell her what to do, on the other hand, I think that when it comes to D8, I have a right, an obligation to tell her how I feel about that.

What do you think?

"The bast@#$d got my W and now he wants my D8 too, and I should just let it happen?"

Now you're making stuff up in your head. You don't know what the extent of their interactions were with your D and it's your W's choice to bring your D around him. This is about you and your W. All he wants is to get in your W's pants.

Like I wrote earlier, this is what you need to do -

"Talk to a L and find out what your legal rights are. Then stop enabling her. Stop helping her. Stop making excuses for her behavior. Stop giving her money. Stop planning things between your D and her. Tell her that you will not live in an open marriage and that as long as OM was in the picture. If she threatens you, tell her what the L has told you and that she can have the papers filed because you are done and the OM can have her."

So what have you "stopped" doing?

Sorry MrBond, I guess you ask what I've "stopped" doing because I havent' stopped analyzing, right?

About your solution, I have to admit that it's what I feel like doing but at this time, before I read DR, I am nervous about this. It seems like a very strong an approach and I don't even know that I'm somewhere where I can even begin to make demands on W. In the past, I have told her that I didn't agree with OM and that I didn't think it was right but for now, until i read DR and figure out exactly where I am, I'm reluctant to do more.

With regards t the rest, I think you are right. It's what i thought this afternoon. I need to go dark and stick with it, no matter what, but I also need to remain courteous but no more than I woulds to a neighbour.

I was just wondering if mentioning where I stand about D8 meeting OM was also something I could do. If setting some sort of boundary about that would be ok, and how I should do it. Especially that it's something we had talked about in the past.

Now, I feel like a doormat. Like she can walk all over her and I just take it because I'm afraid to send her running further. It looks to me like she's about as far as she can be anyways.

I can't wait to get DR.

Let's face it. You haven't even read DR yet, so you don't know what DBing truly is. You're not "breaking any rules" if you do what I suggested. You're just afraid.

"I guess you ask what I've "stopped" doing because I havent' stopped analyzing, right?"

No. I'm asking have you stopped giving her money, enabling her, making things easy for her, etc.? You went out of your way to do everything for her but got nothing in return.

"I was just wondering if mentioning where I stand about D8 meeting OM was also something I could do."

Yes because you are the father. You don't know what kind of character this scumbag has. In fact, anyone who goes out with a M woman isn't a great guy to begin with.

You have a right to establish boundaries.