I stole this from ces
that there are gifts to these situations that take time to see. In the past I see how often I allowed life's circumstances to drive and move me. Even when I made choices, it was based upon what was happening to me rather than what direction I wanted to take. Now, through all this, I'm learning the power of conscious choice and conscious action towards who and what I want to be. And as I realize the liberation that goes along with this awareness, it brings a new revelation of how to be thankful even in times of trials.
time for a new thread and a step forward. I've been holding back for the last 3 days, not feeling ready to start a new thread, because that's a step. ces's words somehow propelled me over that last bump.
I'm making the conscious choice to step forward - again and again
thank you ces
Hey Zig, just to carry over from your last post. Glad my own journey can offer some assistance. I also know that I need to remind myself daily of these revelations to keep them active in how I view life.
Also, to follow up on this:
about knowing your adversary so you can fight them:
i know what i'm up against - but i'm done fighting - it's becoming a chore now, that i don't even care to participate in. do you know what i mean?
it's got to the point of being downright tiresome - his drama and his chaos.
I really do understand how tiring this gets, and just to clarify, when I mentioned "adversary" I was referring to our own thoughts and feelings that keep us down. This is part of the daily reminders to choose better thought habits that keep us going and not dwell on the negatives that drive us down.
You certainly don't have to take part in his drama. That is extremely tiring to carry someone else's drama and issues, especially when you don't really have to. Hope you find the path that helps you off-load that unnecessary baggage! Enjoy your day.
I stole this from ces
that there are gifts to these situations that take time to see. In the past I see how often I allowed life's circumstances to drive and move me. Even when I made choices, it was based upon what was happening to me rather than what direction I wanted to take. Now, through all this, I'm learning the power of conscious choice and conscious action towards who and what I want to be. And as I realize the liberation that goes along with this awareness, it brings a new revelation of how to be thankful even in times of trials.
Now, how in the world am I going to be able to FIT this quote on a POST IT?? I will not have any mirror left. Seriously, that is awe inspiring.. thank you, CES.
Zig, from reading and watching you through your threads (that sounds a little creepy but you know what I mean
), I think too that these are growing pains. I think your feelings about this week need to be honored..and will also catapult you to some new awareness and growth. you are amazing, zig, in how you have taken every step of this journey as a way to grow, and i know that you will do it again this time. ((( )))
Yes, I always go through a very difficult stage and then come out having moved ahead.
Growing pains. I am know looking at them more positively because of the good feelings that come after.
you got me there ces - grin - glad you picked up on it and thanks for pointing it out to me.
glaring, eh?
i instantly thought of the adversary as h. no, no, no - when will i get it - the adversary here is when i let my focus drift - when i don't stay on my own path and choose to see his actions/behaviour as reasons to affect where i am
further detachment exercises being put into place pronto!!
thanks ces
zig
memorize it !!
then you don't have to carry the mirror around (grin)
yes growing pains - plus PMS - bad combo!!
thanks for the lovely things you say ng - you have been encouraging me so much.
so i am going to focus today on how i can be thankful for this opportunity, with these dates and this trip - to learn something new about how i can be strong and focus still more on what's important
(( ))
zig
yes labug - i'm just going to focus on the good feelings that i am going to get when i get through this little squeeze.
off to meditate
zig
"Interruption" will be a word of power for you in the coming days. No, really: I'm not being ironic, sarcastic, or satirical. It is possible that the interruptions will initially seem inconvenient or undesirable, but I bet you will eventually feel grateful for their intervention. They will knock you out of grooves you need to be knocked out of. They will compel you to pay attention to clues you've been neglecting. Don't think of them as random acts of cosmic whimsy, but rather as divine strokes of luck that are meant to redirect your energy to where it should be.
my horoscope for this week from Rob Brezny.
and this - trying to figure this one out!!
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As a boy, renowned Spanish matador Manolete was a sissy. He rarely played outside, preferring to be near his mother as he read books and painted pictures.
Psychologist James Hillman explains this by suggesting that the youthful Manolete had already sensed his destiny, intuiting that one day he would be alone in the ring facing down angry 2,000-pound bulls. His childhood behavior was a way of marshaling his strength and shielding him from the enormity of the challenges he would seek out one day.
Is it possible that what you have considered a weakness or vulnerability has actually been preparing you to express a signature strength
hmm - trying to figure out which of my myriad weaknesses/vulnerabilities would apply here.
food for thought...
They are all your strengths, if you think about it.
hmmm - i will have to think about that!! right now i'm not seeing it!
i'm so proud of myself - got my head out of my A$$ - sorry to be crude but that's where it was , and got on with my day.
i was watching myself just wanting to slip back into the old comfort of withdrawing and cancelling intern and just "focusing " on myself - but saw what i was doing and just consciously chose not to do it.
good breakthrough for me!!
then i found myself thinking - the old habits want to take over, but i've come far enough to recognize my demons, and i actually cannot indulge them any more
chop off their heads with an axe!!!
very happy you sorted yourself out! hugs..
thank you so so much for posting that from Cesc. I love that.
Being still and not reacting has been my biggest lesson so far and the most rewarding
thanks brit - it's a work in progress (grin) - or i should say I"M a work in progress...
Hey Zig forget that other guy...Cainer has this to say:
You will be happy to hear that, this weekend, life does not require you to wrestle with a crocodile or jump from a plane with a parachute on your back. You can undertake such challenges if you wish to but they really are not necessary. You simply have to pit yourself against a problem that seems almost as scary but which is actually much more psychological than physical. You have to do something you don't really want to do and put a smile on your face while you do it. Your chances of success are surprisingly high
so success awaits!! go forth with turtles by your side! hugs
I like that, Brit! It helps put things into the proper perspective!
giggle!!
i just read that 20 minutes ago, myself
so smile on my face it is - you are a total sweetheart, dear girl!!
so another achievement - i got scammed this morning from one of those companies from which i'd bought a domain name who secretly signed me up for a full website package at some horrendous cost.
perseverance was definitely by me while that was going on!!!
took me a while to work through - but just finished dealing with it and scammed them back!! well, not really - found out through paypal that they can secretly set up a billing agreement where they take the money, when you buy that first thing. so she was only too delighted to cancel the "secret" billing agreement for me pronto.
whew - my whole week has been crazy phone calls with big companies trying to figure stuff out - no wonder i was so exhausted last night!!
this little adventure today took up over an hour of my time!!
just had a great evening with my sweet friend - her boys are out of town and she's been holed up writing her dissertation. turned out she wasn't taking care of herself too much so she came over for dinner and we both talked about what complete slobs we are when the boys are away
we even tried to one-up each other on how sloppy we each are - but it was pretty even and we both had a good laugh
it was really nice to hang out with her - haven't seen anyone except my young intern all week. haven't seen s either, which feels strange and there's been complete silence from that front since yesterday!
though i was so busy hanging out with friend that i completely forgot to call and say good night to him - that's a first!
the rest of my day got better and better - and in the evening i was happy to have a really beautiful new pattern that i developed which made me feel really good
i am conscious of the transition ahead tomorrow, when i pick up s from his class h will drop him off in the morning, and then leave for his trip.
other times he has stopped by - to drop s's things off. i don't know if he will tomorrow or not. if he does - i'm sort of wondering if i should hug him good bye in a rather friendly manner
brit" what's your scope on that, eh? with a slightly flirty friendly smile on my fee and send him off with a pat on the rump? or is that overdoing it?
i'm back in my good space again - and surprised to find myself even more detached.
unbidden - success is already beginning to be here for sure - i feel it in every moment that i turn my focus towards the right things to focus on.
how are you?
zig
Zig, I'd go for the goodbye hug - but you know me (I'm a recidivist pursuer!).
My H went OS for a week recently and I used the occasion to give him a hug and wsth him a good trip.
He responded well.
You never know how they'll react, but you might as well give it a go.
Might give him something to think about while he travels. Wack on your best perfume and sexiest dress, and go in for the nonchalant kiss/hug.
Be your full-on sensual self and be damned!
yeah right - and then i woke up this morning and my horoscope said
A partner, either business or romantic, might be in a foul humor today and won't be very likely to tell you why. It won't be all that easy to deal with, but it probably doesn't relate to any trouble between you. Therefore it's best to let your partner work it out on their own. Take care to stay cool and keep a safe distance between you, at least for today. The mood should pass by tomorrow.
of course - there is the "simple" detail - is h my partner still or not?
maybe it's my intern!!
i had a good laugh when i read that. a really good laugh!!
you know, he expects me to be f'ed up about these trips - in fact keeps insisting that i am and can't possibly not be. so how enthusiastically should i let him know that it's no big deal - that we aren't together and haven't been for a long time and of course i'm happy that he gets to spend time with someone he cares about.
heck. i'm about to throw out - happy break up anniversary honey. oh i know - i think i'll invite him over for dinner on BD day!! i actually think i'm ready to toast to that - it was the day i started my transformation - how can i not celebrate?
actually come to think of it i think i'll have a party at the house and invite all the wonderful people in my life who have walked by my side during this last year
yeah yeah yeah - probably will give him a hug - that's if he comes anywhere near me....
Zig, I'd go for the goodbye hug - but you know me (I'm a recidivist pursuer!).
My H went OS for a week recently and I used the occasion to give him a hug and wsth him a good trip.
He responded well.
You never know how they'll react, but you might as well give it a go.
Might give him something to think about while he travels. Wack on your best perfume and sexiest dress, and go in for the nonchalant kiss/hug.
Be your full-on sensual self and be damned!
Trying to catch up on your sitch, Zig. Didn't you say on another thread that he was going off with OW this weekend?? If that's the case, I DEFINITELY wouldn't give him a hug or a kiss or a friendly smack on the butt!!! But I do like the sexy new dress/new cologne/new hairdo idea. Let him wonder all weekend what YOU are up to!!!
Starsky
thanks starsky - it's not just the weekend - he's going to stay with her for 8 days. she lives several states away - and every month or two he goes down there, and she's been up here a couple of times!!
she was just here a few weeks ago for 10 days - and this is the first time during this sitch that the pace has quickened with their visits - usually it's about 2 or 2 and half months in between each
thanks for looking into my sitch - appreciate any insight you have to offer
hope you're doing well
zig
Zig you're my girl but I gotta say you are all over the place about this weekend. A few days ago you were talking about how upsetting it was for you and now you're talking about possibly throwing a party. So one thing comes to mind......
Be Still.
Don't over think this whole thing. You don't know if he's even stopping by and you're thinking of what you should do in order to affect an outcome.
It's not your job to reassure him that you're "okay" with him going to spend 8 days away from his son with his GF.
No pats on the bum, no have a good time. A hug, a warm goodby, and a see you in a week is fine.
Starsky is right let him wonder about you.
I know I advised you to find a way to be happy that he was having a break from the house or whatever but that was to combat any bitterness you might be feeling that would play into your interaction with him. There is a thing as going too far the other way and actually supporting him emotionally in having another relationship.
Keep yourself on solid footing that's the only outcome you need to try to influence dear girl.
zig-
i agree with brit and starsky. let him wonder. be cheerful and nice. you dont know if you will see him, so dont work yourself up over it. trying to get a reaction is pursuit. what happens if you dont see him? expectatios can be crippling. look nice today for you. if you see him, great. if not, you will feel good about you. it is amazing what looking nice does for your own self worth. be cool and calm. leave him wondering. be like your sister Xena! lol...
Dakota
ah brit - i was just joking and being flippant.
and when i said a party for BD day - that's later in august - and i was really talking about celebrating the start of my "waking up"
i guess i was using flippancy to hide my hurt. yes, i'm hurting - trip to see her, wedding anniversary and 1st year anniversary of starting their affair all in the same week that he's with her - it's just hurting my heart a bit.
"You don't know if he's even stopping by and you're thinking of what you should do in order to affect an outcome. "
actually - i wasn't thinking of the outcome really - i was just trying to "prepare" myself mentally, because i know if he does stop by it will be last minute, with no warning, and i didn't want to be unprepared.
but maybe you're right that on some level there was some of that involved. checking myself
thanks for the 2 x4
i'll work on staying still, but seriously brit - i was mostly goofing around.
on the whole, i am on one level hurting about those dates, and on the other level feeling quite indifferent (maybe it's self-protection?) about him going.
how one can feel both those things at the same time... it's confusing.
flippancy is not the answer - i told that to mac the other day - need to do the same for myself
"There is a thing as going too far the other way and actually supporting him emotionally in having another relationship."
yes - i see that . i'm mixed up about what stand to really take and to find the balance between "don't see that as having any importance whatsoever" as joann advised and what you write above.
this is so difficult to balance - just focus on being friends - well then if i'm being friends - wouldn't it be natural for me to be happy for him?
help me gain some clarity here - this is obviously an opportunity for me to possibly achieve that
thanks so much brit. better for me to admit that this [censored] than to try to hide it under an i don't care attitude...
zig
oh and one more thing - he always asks me before a trip - "are you angry about this?" or something similar
what the HELL is the right answer to that?
the problem is that he wants to talk about my feelings and inspects me closely - and it bloody unnerves me bad!!
Zig you're my girl but I gotta say you are all over the place about this weekend. A few days ago you were talking about how upsetting it was for you and now you're talking about possibly throwing a party. So one thing comes to mind......
Be Still.
Don't over think this whole thing. You don't know if he's even stopping by and you're thinking of what you should do in order to affect an outcome.
It's not your job to reassure him that you're "okay" with him going to spend 8 days away from his son with his GF.
No pats on the bum, no have a good time. A hug, a warm goodby, and a see you in a week is fine.
Starsky is right let him wonder about you.
I know I advised you to find a way to be happy that he was having a break from the house or whatever but that was to combat any bitterness you might be feeling that would play into your interaction with him. There is a thing as going too far the other way and actually supporting him emotionally in having another relationship.
Keep yourself on solid footing that's the only outcome you need to try to influence dear girl.
This. ^^^ Brit said it far better than I did.
this is so difficult to balance - just focus on being friends - well then if i'm being friends - wouldn't it be natural for me to be happy for him?
I don't believe in the whole "friends" thing. Be friend-LY, yes -- civil, courteous, respectful -- like you would treat a workmate who was staying at your house for a few weeks. But not BFF, no way.
I told my wife, when she was still wayward, that I needed to be clear about something: if she decided to end our marriage this way -- by cheating on me and lying to everyone (including our own family) about it -- that we would NEVER be friends. We would work together as civil co-parents, but that would be it. If, however, she decided to end her affair, and come back and work on the marriage with me for a period of time (say, a year), and if after that time we just decided it wasn't working, then yes I could see us remaining friends even in divorce.
When my wife and I reconciled after her infidelity, she told me that there were two things that were the primary influence on her deciding to end her affair:
the disapproval of her mother and our adult daughters; and losing me as her best friend. She said something like "As strange as it sounds, I was more prepared to lose you as my husband, than I was to lose you as my best friend."
What kind of friend cheats upon the other, and then is filled with deceit about the whole thing?
Starsky
so starsky - did your wife acknowledge that she was cheating on you?
because my h has this brilliant notion that since he announced that we are "officially separated" that means he's not cheating on me at all!!
Be happy that he's cheating on you???!!! What am I missing here?
i meant ACT AS IF - i'm happy period. happy with being friends. accepting that this is what he wants in his life right now
What kind of friend cheats upon the other, and then is filled with deceit about the whole thing?
no friend of mine - and that's how i've felt from the beginning.
HOW DO I - make it safe for him to return - if i am judgmental about what he is doing currently?
frankly, you guys are over-reacting a bit.
sd - i wasn't getting worked up over it by any means - sorry i gave that impression
i wasn't obsessed in any way about his coming or not coming over - in fact - i'm not expecting him to. i'm thinking he's avoiding me as he has all week and will probably do something along the lines of getting mil or fil to drop s's things off.
my advice from joann has been quite different - allow him to make mistakes with me, let go of all resistance to the sitch, make a full life of my own but mostly be friendly and welcoming. don't think of ow as important,allow him to come closer.
i like what you said to your wife - that's what i would like to say to h. but he preempts me on everything - like he's doing the db'ing first!!
i'm glad we are having this discussion - i admit i'm a bit confused about how to act - with all this conflicting advice, and that i may not have got it completely here.
but frankly after the spewing from monday to wednesday, total silence after that - i'm not expecting anything at all. the guy is struggling - he can't be near me without remembering what happened and the vibes between us - he's avoiding the heck out of me this week. and i'm not upset about it - i'm almost amused.
dropping the rope, to me , means dropping ALL resistance to every part of what's going on - and that's acceptance too - how do you do that while your'e still making conditions about whether or not they are with the OP?
or am i totally interpreting that incorrectly?
thanks all of you and i agree with everything you say also - i want to explore this more so that i am more clearly defined on this for myself
zig
zig-
you are doing good. dont think you arent. being happy for you is key. dont worry so much about what he is doing. he is probably struggling but it is his struggle. you have no control. i like how you want to keep the road home smooth. that is good. you dont have to drive him home tho. be happy with you, stick to your boundries, be the attractive person you are. things have a way of working out.
you may never R nd that is hard to deal with. it has to be done for you to be truly happy. not to hijack..i stopped worrying about W and OM's. stopped trying to inguence her. i decided to be happy with me. she has noticed and it doesnt matter to me. OM called me yesterday and wanted to talk so i met him. he wanted advice because she broke his heart! lmfao!!!! really? what was i supposed to say to that? it is to bizarre. then she started asking me for help. i responded politely when i had time. i have no hard feelings. today i had court for my protection order. it was dropped. she didtt show up.
my point is, worry about you. when you become happy and live the way you want, the world is a shiny beautiful place. the WAS have their struggles as we do. it is their burden to bear. when you are the strong confident one i know you can be things work out. might not be how you want. there are powers greater than us at work. karma, god whatever. if you live right, right things happen.
zig, you are a rockstar. keep your head up. you will know what YOU need to do. you are smart.
Dakota
Zig,
My wife consistently lied to me and to our family (our adult daughters and my MIL and FIL) about her affair. "He's just a friend" was her stance throughout, until I finally confronted her on that "deceit" part of it, as the lies were just insulting my intelligence.
Yes, you should act "as if" -- AS IF THIS MAY NOT BE WHAT YOU WANTED, BUT YOU REALIZE YOU WILL BE PERFECTLY FINE ON YOUR OWN IF THAT'S THE WAY IT GOES DOWN. BIG difference than acting as if you're okay with his cheating.
"Hey, I think what you're doing is disgusting, cowardly and -- frankly -- unattractive. But you're a grown man, and I don't wish to control you. You do what you want, but I'm not willing to live in an open marriage, and I realize now that while this isn't what I wanted, and it will be difficult, that I'm going to be just fine."
That should be the attitude that oozes from your every pore.
Starsky
"Hey, I think what you're doing is disgusting, cowardly and -- frankly -- unattractive. But you're a grown man, and I don't wish to control you. You do what you want, but I'm not willing to live in an open marriage, and I realize now that while this isn't what I wanted, and it will be difficult, that I'm going to be just fine."
That should be the attitude that oozes from your every pore.
Starsky
this i like!!! alot..
dropping the rope, to me , means dropping ALL resistance to every part of what's going on - and that's acceptance too - how do you do that while your'e still making conditions about whether or not they are with the OP?
Zig,
Like many of us, you're misunderstanding the difference between ULTIMATUMS (which are controlling, and usually backfire) and BOUNDARIES (which are healthy, and necessary). I used to try to explain it, but I recently came across a post by a friend of mine that explained it SO well, and so succinctly, that I've just been copying and pasting what she wrote:
Think about boundaries like this:
Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, because boundaries are about drawing "circles" around *you* and determining what you will and won't allow inside that circle.
Your WxH can do whatever he wants OUTSIDE that circle. You are not telling him what to do.
But you will only let into that circle people who treat you with respect.
He's free to go on treating you with disrespect, but you won't know about it because he'll be outside your circle. He's free to go on and draw his own boundaries of no expectations and no responsibilities, outside your circle.
He can do WHATEVER he wants. He's a free person, free to make WHATEVER choices he wants.
BUT SO ARE YOU, and you are free to choose who to allow within your circle.
That's all. Not about trying to control him at all. Tell him he's totally free. He has the WHOLE WORLD, outside your circle, to go and do whatever he wants.
If he's saying you have to let him into your circle no matter what, then THAT is about HIM controlling YOU.
wow, zig, this stuff is really confusing.. ((( ))).. but okay i'll throw my 2 cents in..
love the post on boundaries by starsky.
what is best for you? what keeps you at the picnic (or at least glancing over your shoulder wondering what we are doing if he is around) today?
it feels as if sometimes H feels responsible for your feelings or wants you to be responsible for his..
he needs to walk his path on his own..
and your focus is zig..
((( )))
wow, zig, this stuff is really confusing.. ((( ))).. but okay i'll throw my 2 cents in..
love the post on boundaries by starsky.
what is best for you? what keeps you at the picnic (or at least glancing over your shoulder wondering what we are doing if he is around) today?
it feels as if sometimes H feels responsible for your feelings or wants you to be responsible for his..
he needs to walk his path on his own..
and your focus is zig..
((( )))
Starsky
First Dakota stop dropping bombs on other people's threads..I need all the juicy goss over in your thread so we can chat about it. seriously I'm so happy for you!!!!
Zig I get that you're flippant, that's good! I think you're like me sometimes it's so overwhelming you have to make jokes about it. It's cool.
I think through all these twists and turns and ups and downs we just find more parts of us that need to detach. That need to become okay with the now and it makes us stronger. It's easier to self medicate, to act irrational, to spread our hurt instead of heal but none of us are doing that. Certainly not you Zig, you are so committed to growing and giving!!!
you'll get through this and a month or so from now you'll be like I can't believe I was so upset about all that....
Remember, you're the Zig Badger. You got it going on girl.
PS when did Dakota turn into Yoda?
HA! Badger, Yoda, Xena, unbidden what's your inner character?
just a quick stop in to say i'm keeping up -with all your responses - but don't have time to answer at length as i'm working w/ intern right now and then have to go pick up s right after (taking a quick ciggies break here)
brit and unbidden =thanks.
you said the BEST thing brit - a month from now it will be a haze in the past - why not make it that right now
and unbidden - THANK YOU for reminding me of the badger - hmmm - wonder if badgers and turtles get along?
as for h - he was going to stop by but i let him 'off the hook" bu pointing out that since he was staying with hi parents we would stop by and pick up the stuff on the weekend. he seemed very relieved and in retro - i'm glad.
he talked about the taxes and that i should call someone to find out rates. then he called and left a message - which i thought you could all enjoy.
"spoke to my dad and got the name of a good acctant - here it is. when you call ask him his rates and don't forget to tell him that you and i are friends and that you know my dad"
i'm supposed to say this to the guy who is about to file our taxes jointly because we are married???
i just about died laughing. am not calling h back! but will call the guy!!
HIS chaos in HIS castle!!!!
i am sooo happy at the thought that i am going to stay on the picnic blanket and just enjoy the cake
starsky, sd - i will respond later tonight
thanks all
zig
It helps to look at things in the past that we got thru and remember how they seemed so huge bight we survived we grew we learned from it.
I'm glad you diffused the sitch and let him off the hook. Go have a great holiday at home with S for the next few days!
hi dakota - thanks for your words.
that is quite a development in your sitch. have to go over and catch up on your thread
i'm really not "worrying" about what he's doing, you know? i'll admit i've been a bit worried about his blood pressure lately as he's been so incredibly tense and worked up. but i also noticed that i worried about it in the same way i would about a friend and had NO urge to say or do anything about it.
i do know i'm doing good - more than great - i think back to how i was in jan and march when he went on those trips - and i am nothing like that this time. i do feel the dates a bit - but even that has passed - i acknowledged it here, to myself and to a friend, had a tiny little cry and then after that i was really okay - more than okay and still am
when i think or talk or write here about h, it's more observing now, rather than being "involved" as i used to be for the major part
i don't think i'm a rockstar - but heck i'd say i suddenly have a starring role in my own life - probably for the first time.
thanks for peeping in - and keep us up to date with your latest, eh
hope you're well
zig
thanks ng - and it was not so difficult to turn around back to the picnic today - also because i wasn't so messed up to begin with.
it feels as if sometimes H feels responsible for your feelings or wants you to be responsible for his..
yes ng - he has felt very responsible for my feelings from the beginning, and taken them on as his burden to bear all these years. when they were negative, he took on the martyr role of i have to bear zig's stuff. now they have not been negative for a more than a year - and so instead he tells me all the time how i feel(he told me always before too). well, until 10 days ago when i said in a really serene voice that i would like him to stop doing that.
now he doesn't have me to be martyrish about - he's started being martyrish about the details of the situation he's created for himself. i'm not taking that on, not feeling bad about it, but just seeing it for what it is - slightly crumbling walls - ones he created which are not mine to keep up, nor fix.
my focus is me - definitely - and is becoming more and more so as each day goes by
thanks ng -
zig
journaling:
i've had a wonderful day altogether. the morning was a bit rough - but really nothing like before, and then i did some wonderful new designs today that had me thrilled - as well as my intern. and that was delightful to experience even though there were the other things.
then went to pick up s - and we had a really great evening together.
i must confess that we sat and watched some of the honey badger clips on you tube and laughed together. i kept apologizing every time randall cursed - which made us both laugh even harder. watching it with a kid actually makes the guy sound even more outrageous because you're so much more aware of the bad language!!
s seems really happy to be home - and we made popcorn and watched a movie and then were delighted to find that netflix had added TinTin to the instant watching and then of course we had to watch one of those episodes
we've got our weekend filled up - two of his friends will come over for the day tomorrow and then sunday we'll go over and spend the day with mil, swimming and helping her get some stuff done at her house, and then stay for dinner.
so surprisingly i'm feeling the most peaceful this evening than i have ever felt during this sitch.
i have no idea why - i think i just let it all go and decided to stay here, right now, and enjoy what i have. i really am on my own path and i am feeling the edges of that path on either side of me so much more clearly now. it's getting defined more and more - the edges were so blurry before..
brits words reminding me was the cinched today - that in a few weeks this will have passed and i won't even remember the intense feeling of it. if it's going to be a faded memory anyway, i think i may as well fade it now - and save those brain cells for the positive ones i could have instead
thanks starsky - for posting this - it was excellent to read. i really appreciate it.
i will say though that i almost feel a bit of anger/frustration from you towards me for the way i'm handling my situation with my h. i really hope it was not based on that post this morning - that is not the attitude i am taking.
i don't know if it will help you to understand where i'm at right now if i explain, but i will anyway.
I treated h like shite from the beginning - in his eyes. I criticized him from morning to night - non-stop. i didn't see my comments as criticism at the time - i didn't understand that what i thought were "observations" , he took it as me constantly telling him that i didn't approve of him at all. setting aside everything else (his own behavior etc), there was no way for me to know how i eroded his confidence and self-esteem, as he did mine. we did a real number on each other.
we lost each others trust completely.
when i woke up and started to realize how my actions had affected him and brought us to this sitch,my biggest 180 was to stop all the anger, all the judgement all the right and wrong. i can't say i am 100% successful at that yet (human weakness), but i have done it to the best of my ability.
i went dim from september to april - set all kinds of boundaries - following suggestions here on this board - and all i saw was h withdrawing further and further.
i could see it was not working. when i started dropping the boundaries (which incidentally reminded him non-stop that he was doing something wrong) and allowing him to come closer - stopped being mysterious, started picking up the phone right when he called etc - all those little things - the change was dramatic. within a week he was getting more friendly, opening up to me, and spending time here.
i don't know if you have kept up with all the posts i have written - but here are some of the things he has said in the last 3 weeks, things incidentally that i never expected to hear from him ever: "i was really happy during our marriage, I see the possibility of us being together", owning some huge things that really were hard for me, telling his favorite stories about me to friends at s's b'day party, telling me that i am an amazing confident woman whose got her sh!t together
so tell me starsky - should i stop doing what works here? i don't see this trip as an indication that things are getting worse. i just see it as part of the path he is on. i have detached a lot - but even you have to admit that no matter how much detachment, we still have emotional reactions.
i find it really interesting that when i posted a couple of days ago about feeling vulnerable about the dates coming up this week, there was no response, but when i got a bit flippant and said i might pat him on the rump in jest - i practically got bombarded
so where was the real support here, i might ask?
i know that your concern is that i am treating myself in a correct and healthy way for myself, and respecting myself during this time. and i so appreciate that you are so active in helping us all find that for ourselves - you do this board and the people like me on it a great service
i know that i still have a lot to learn, and really really want to. i have a long way to go still in learning how to be in a relationship with anyone, let alone h. sometimes i get confused about what is the right thing to do - not just for the sitch but for myself, and i come here to ask.
confused, because the advice i got from the db coach conflicts heavily from a lot of it on the board. confused because after 5 yrs of not "being here'" and having no real emotional connections, i still struggle at having so many emotions to deal with
here's a maxim i have lived by for the last year:
h stood by me while i was in crisis for 5 years, if not possibly 10 yrs. I want to stand by him through his. only he and I really know the sh!t he had to bear and the sh!t i had to bear. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt right now. i hurt badly because of what he is doing during his crisis, but i don't get to choose how he has his crisis, just like he didn't get to choose how i had mine.
but i do get to choose how i am during his. he didn't handle my crisis well at all, in fact really really badly, and i do believe it propelled him into his. i choose not to continue that cycle, and i believe that i have broken it.i am absolutely sure that during this year he has come to recognize that.
so this is where i am at. if you see anything in what i have written that causes concern that i am not doing right by myself- i would really like to hear about it
i appreciate all the feedback i get
thanks
zig
Your empathy is beautiful. That was a very touching read to know that you see what he went thru! Good for you
Zig,
((( )))
I am sorry I have not been around the past few days. Of all of the times you have been there for me and now these past few days I could not offer the same to you.
I understand the feeling of self preservation and almost numbing oneself to emotions ( I did the same the day of our eleventh anniversary in May, which was ten days after he got into PA). And it's almost as if we have to hold our breathes to get through the tunnel.
And once we are through we are ok again ( as ok as we can be in these ditches).
When you recapped your sitch just now I felt so close to you. It is very similar to mine ( my crisis spurred his crisis) and your approach of standing by while in
crisis is inspiring.
It does get confusing on how to act. I have had some conflicting advice between my coach and the boards as well, and I guess it all comes down to doing what works. I just spoke with my coach yesterday and she gave me advice that scares the living sh!t out of me, but I will try it. If it does not work, I will course correct.
It is also confusing I think because we as LBS I don't think we actually realised for a long while how unhappy our S's were. So when this hits us we have to first take some time to recover from the blow and then the slow process of understanding how so many things we thought were working were actually the things that were not working.
So we have to relearn so much. And that is hard and conflicts with what what we thought we knew so well for so long.
Plus of course, what works for some does not work for others.
There are many times that I feel maybe I never knew my H at all. Maybe everything i believed was so clouded by my own stupid judgement that Maybe it wont matter what I do. And I work hard at accepting the fact that I really am a single parent right now and that what I thought was mine, my family, my future,
was only a part of my journey.
I can't say what is right or wrong for you. But I can say that you are an inspiring, thoughtful, loyal friend that I am so happy to have in my life. I think its ok to struggle with these questions and realities that we face and have never been prepared for or expected to face. and maybe that's part of the lesson.
It's hard to stand for our Ms when our Ms no longer exist practically and in the eyes of our WAS.
And that's why we are all here together. To stand together and face this
together.
I hope you are feeling better today. I cleaned up the picnic blanket and got some fresh drinks, glasses and updated the playlist. Join me again?
zig, I love the commitment you have to H and yourself. I love your thinking and doing truly for you, at the same time taking advice and processing it.
I love how you enjoy your S10.
My IC's mantra is always "balance, balance, balance".
I think you have to trust your gut feeling sometimes and continue to evaluate your sitch as it progresses.
You are doing some great work and an inspiration to us all!!!
Your empathy is beautiful. That was a very touching read to know that you see what he went thru! Good for you
^^like!!
I keep hearing confusion being brought up and I'm not so sure it's confusing but maybe that's because I've been at this for a while.
As long as I am being true to myself and not allowing MY boundaries to be crossed, I'm good. The difficult part is figuring out those boundaries and being strong enough to state them and enforce them
No one can tell me what my boundaries are, that must come from me. I can't tell another person what their boundary should be.
Like all other advice here, take what you can use, leave the rest.
There are no experts here and I would guess that anything anyone might try has worked for someone.
Zig.
No, I have not read your entire sitch. What sort of crisis were you in for 5-10 years? I was unaware of that. If your husband stuck by you thru your own prior infidelity, drug use, or some sort of other life crisis that would probably change my view somewhat.
I'm not agry with you at all! I hope that isn't coming across. Frustrated? Sure. Know this about me: I absolutely DETEST affairs, with every fiber of my being, and I will help anyone who wants my help to fight them. I've seen first-hand what they can do to a family, and have counseled literally hundreds of people thru them. I don't believe in rewarding bad behavior, and when I see what I perceive to be someone doing that, I usually speak up.
I'd have to go back and read what sort of "boundaries" you were laying previously, and what specifically happened that you are defining as "not working." I will say this, however:
One of the misconceptions about DBing, in my opinion, is the "Do what works" thing. The problem is that people mis-define "works" as being "what doesn't make her/him angry" and "what makes her/him act nice towards me." Instead of as "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."
Sometimes one has to take a short-term "hit" in the "nice" department in order to solidify a healthier, longer-term gain.
Is your husband being "nicer" to you right now? Depends on how you define "nice." I don't think there's anything "nice" about continuing to cheat on your spouse, no matter how friendly you treat them when you're around them! In fact, I would say it would be far "nicer" of him to end his affair, even if it means he's then depressed and a bit snippy with you as he goes thru the withdrawal.
If you feel what you're doing is working for you, then I certainly don't want to have my posts upset you. I try to offer my help in those situations where people are noticing that the "be their friend" thing ISN'T working, and are ready to try a tougher approach.
Peace,
Starsky
so tell me starsky - should i stop doing what works here? i don't see this trip as an indication that things are getting worse. i just see it as part of the path he is on.
Zig, if you don't see his going off and continuing to have a physical affair with another woman -- while knowing that you know about it -- as a HUGE problem, then I'm afraid there's nothing I can offer you. "Part of his path" ???
Puhleeze. I'm sorry, in my opinion that's just a bunch of hokum.
Humans are pretty basic, path-of-least-resistance creatures, especially us men. As long as your husband is getting his physical and many of his emotional needs met by another woman, and the rest of his emotional needs met by you when he comes come, I think you will find that he will never do anything to change the current situation. Why would he?
With one exception: OW could dump him. However, that usually leads to OW#2 if a man feels he can continue to get away with it.
Starsky
hi zig,
thanks again for your courage and honesty about the feelings you wrestle with..i often share them with you and am helped when you articulate them so well here...
thanks too as you have generated a great discussion about what is the most difficult decision (or series of decisions) we make while in the ditches
..how to handle contact and boundaries..
or really WHEN to do what...N/C,dim, dark, act as if, seduce them back, what would a friend do, flirt, end the conversation first, give them space, let them see your changes, let them see what it is like to miss us..and on and on...
i really like how you handled this week.. it seemed to me like H was in some turmoil and you just gave him space...i loved how you handled the last day... you sounded empowered and those seemed like healthy boundaries to me.
and I LOVE your empathy too.. i believe that self awareness, forgiveness, detachment and our own self confidence are all wrapped up together.. and i feel as if you have been growing in all... so that NO MATTER WHAT, you will be ok...that is the goal too, right?
please keep expressing all that you feel and struggle with.. it helps all of us. I am so so honored to be picnicking with you, zig, every day I grow just be hearing and sharing with you. (((((( ))))))
brit - thank you for your words. i don't literally see myself as empathetic - all i see is that i was one way before and i choose not to be that way any more.
I spent my whole life so self-focused , always looking to see what someone else was doing or saying to me. never was able to put myself in the other person's place and try to see what they were feeling.
it's hard to face up to that - and then to try to see it from someone else's point of view - that's like looking in the mirror and seeing some very very ugly images.
if that's empathy - i'm so happy to be there. can't help thinking that if i'd done even a little of that before, we wouldn't be where we are right now.
in my own defense - i did put myself in h's shoes - but only on some issues - and not the ones i truly needed to look at
Busting - sweet sweet busting - you are so wrong about not being here for me. just because you didn't post on my thread? no, no - you've been right by my side at the picnic the whole time.
you think the picnic is only for you? i NEED to be at that picnic just as much as you or anyone else does. do you not think that banter on your thread was helping me to stay in a good place? do you know how many times this week i said to myself - i'm at the picnic with all you guys. you are as much here for me as you could possibly be, sweet girl, and besides - i'm at the point where knowing the picnic is in full swing helps me stay on that blanket. well, that and brit given' it to me straight up no ice and i so like her style (grin)
I cleaned up the picnic blanket and got some fresh drinks, glasses and updated the playlist. Join me again?again - i never left - okay so i leaned ofer and turned around but i promise i never got off!!! not for a second!!
i loved to read what you wrote - actually i was delighted - you've taken such strides in the last couple of weeks busting - you've stepped back and begun to see what's what - not overshadowed by your emotions. now you can think again in a more constructive way - and see more clearly what it is that you CAN do.
It is also confusing I think because we as LBS I don't think we actually realised for a long while how unhappy our S's were. So when this hits us we have to first take some time to recover from the blow and then the slow process of understanding how so many things we thought were working were actually the things that were not working.yes this is why i am where i'm at - i can say for myself that i did see that he was not happy and i tried ALOT to ask him tot talk to me. he just denied it completely - and that's what made me so terribly unhappy. at the time i saw it as him not trusting me enough to open up to me.
now i see that his issue was that he could not acknowledge his own feelings to himself , let alone to me. that there is no way i could have or can fix that. that's for him to fix...
i don't know if my standing by him while he is in crisis is the "correct" thing to do. all i know is that taking the higher road here for me is the only choice i have. i know myself, i know my own tendencies and it would only be too easy for me to take the other route... i cannot do that, because then i will prevent the true growth that needs to occur within me.
except oddly now - i have reached the point where i couldn't take that easy road of anger and indignation - it's not the way i function any longer
hey - what did you add to that playlist? i hope there's lots of ABBA - because there's nothing like Abba to get one swinging and laughing once again!!! my s must know that - for the last three times he's returned back here - he walks straight into his room and turns Abba on
(((((( ))))))) to you busting - you have become the same kind of friend to me
zig
thanks reaching - and thanks for the reminder
Balance, Balance, Balance
that turtle came to join us these last few weeks and I have been striving for that in my own life. I was terribly unbalanced - and I am slowly learning what it means to find that.
trusting my gut? yes, - i am trying to for the first time in my life. i didn't even know it was there before...
hope you are doing well
zig
vera, labug - thanks
labug - i've been thinking about those boundaries a lot lately.
i'm getting a new sense here about what it means to have one and for what reason one puts them into place.
i don't know if i can articulate clearly enough what i am feeling, but i will try.
when we are in a place where we get hurt or abused by others words/ actions or the way they treat us, then boundaries need to be put into place to protect ourselves and to get the respect we need. when we get that space for ourselves, then slowly we can see more clearly what those needs are
what happens when we are detached enough that their words/ actions DON'T affect us so deeply any longer?
Do those same boundaries apply? or do we adjust them and be flexible enough to set up new parameters for ourselves and others? or do we just hold on to those old ones, just in case?
during the months i was dim, I needed h to stay away - because i couldn't handle what he was doing around me. when i got stronger i realized that he could come and go, and it didn't affect me much at all.
specific things affected me - and i felt that each of them that came up, needed to come up to teach me something, to help me define something for myself, to show me what i needed to work on, to help me understand where i was really at and to change that for the better for myself.
through all of this one could say my h has been consistent - he's taken a stand and is sticking by it - at least until now, and for however long he chooses to. but where i'm at is much more significant for me. and i will say that i couldn't see the possibility of being at this place before for myself.
where i'm at is being able to live that no matter what he is doing, i can stay consistent in my feelings for him, step back enough to see what's mine to fix (myself) and what's not mine (his stuff)
now, the only boundary i need to have is the firm one for myself - how much do i allow what he is doing to affect me?
and each week i find that boundary getting stronger and stronger.
not the one where he is or isn't doing certain things. but the boundary of where i'm at in my reaction to it.
that is the only way i can see myself being successful whether i have to move forward on my own or whether we reconcile.if we do r, i cannot depend on him changing his ways. i will have to depend on how i have changed mine only.
i hope that what i wrote makes sense.
i am taking what i can use - and it's a lot a lot. and i love being on this board for that reason.
hope you're having a great weekend.
zig
ps. i just thought of a conversation between h and me a few weeks ago that demonstrates this.
me: h, you don't have to knock on the door when you come in each time (I had never asked him to do that, he just started after he moved out)
h: oh, I do. you need your space and I need mine. and this gives you the space
me: Actually, your actions do not affect the space I'm in. (and i only realized that in the moment I said it). I'm really fine where I'm at and i don't need you to decide for me whether I need that space or not. I can decide that for myself. I will continue to knock when I come to your place, since you say you need that space.
h: No, you don't need to knock when you come over (I barely ever go there)
only after i realized that i had made a new boundary with h - "don't decide for me what I need, based on what you are feeling. this came after he had had that long conversation with our friend in march where he admitted to being in an mlc, and during that had told her "s and zig need a lot of space - i have to stay away and give it to them"
i know i digressed a bit there -but this is what it's all about for me right now
Really like what you just wrote, zig.
Personal boundaries are based on personal reasons. When we remove reasons, there becomes no need for boundaries.
Many of our reasons are fear based.
Get rid of the fear means getting rid of the reason which means getting rid of the need for boundaries.
Every boundary has a reason. Make those reasons your own. Or get rid of them.
well, well starsky - here we are. or i should say here i am.
I'm not really sure where to start. but zig style I guess i'll just dive in...
the first thing i read this morning was your second post to me. and after that i realized that there were a host of other responses, including your first one.
you definitely came on my thread to teach me something. but it took me many hours...
the first thing i learned was that you gave me another opportunity to practice my new learned skills.
the second thing i learned was that i have really truly changed, and i thank-you for that - tremendously.
so what have i truly changed? after i read your second post my first instinct was to hit reply and let you have it!
then i found i didn't need to. i just simply didn't. i could wait and digest what you wrote, tried to see it from your point of view, listen to what you were saying and then know where i was, what i am, who i want to work towards being and be really okay with that.
and the best thing? i could do it without getting angry, without defending myself or my position and without getting sarcastic or pissy. all the things i would have done before without a moment's hesitation.
that i feel confident enough finally that i don't have to spin-off because someone else doesn't agree with me, don't have to get all panicky and start second-guessing myself because someone suggested that i should do it differently.
now to the first thing i learned. i hope you won't take this the wrong way, because it is not meant that way - it is only to demonstrate where I am at, not you.
your stance reminded me of my h. i didn't feel as if you really read what i was writing. i feel that you picked up on certain things that stuck out for you (your triggers?) and then sort of went for me with them.
at first i could only see my own gut reaction of wanting to write back to you and explain it all. then i found myself thinking - how could i use this negative reaction i am having in a positive way. i found that i could "practice" on you, in preparation for being able to do the same with my h later.
you talk about boundaries? i believe i am learning for the first time in my life, albeit a little late, about what those mean.
and i have a boundary here: I am open to all discussion and interaction and am willing to partake in it wholeheartedly. but what i will not accept from anyone is outright derision.
Zig, if you don't see his going off and continuing to have a physical affair with another woman -- while knowing that you know about it -- as a HUGE problem, then I'm afraid there's nothing I can offer you. "Part of his path" ???
Puhleeze. I'm sorry, in my opinion that's just a bunch of hokum.
If that is not derision and scorn, then I don't know what is.
and yes, it is a trigger for me - my h used that exact way of speaking to me for all the years we were together (including the faces) when he didn't like what i was saying or doing.
so it was a trigger for me - but not in the same way as before - i didn't react in the old way - and i thank you for helping me to see that. i have been really calm about it, just knowing that i would make it clear when i replied to you.
and this:
No, I have not read your entire sitch. What sort of crisis were you in for 5-10 years? I was unaware of that. If your husband stuck by you thru your own prior infidelity, drug use, or some sort of other life crisis that would probably change my view somewhat.
why should it change your view? i thought your view was that you had 0% tolerance for affairs, no matter what. are you saying now that depending on the circumstances, that view may change?
did i need to do something "bad enough" for you to take a more kindly view of my h?
is there a line i had to cross so that it justified MORE what he was doing?
so what were your comments based on, starsky? you say you aren't aware of my sitch but you have had some really strong opinions. then you say that depending on what i tell you about what i did during the marriage, it may change your view?
in your response to me there seems to be an indication that you think that i happily accept what h is doing. no, i don't - absolutely not. it's horrendous that he has done this to me, to our families and to himself. i have never condoned his r with ow, but yes i have told him honestly that if he feels that that is truly what makes him happy then i respect that and i am happy for him. that is not the same thing as saying i'm happy about what he is doing.
as for h being nice and what i define as "nice"... yes i DO think it's nice that h is being nicer. I have no expectations that that will lead to us reconciling - but yes, it is nice to have him feel comfortable enough around s and me alone to eat breakfast with us after 11 months - especially since that was one of our most difficult times of the day.
of course. i agree with you - it would be very nice if he ended the affair - that would be the most nice. but he's not going to end the affair because of what i did or didn't do - he's going to end it if and when he's ready to.
and if he is in mlc - which i truly think he is - what is the point of me taking a"tougher approach" as you put it. i've read a lot throughout the mlc forums and help and i don't find that approach being used it all. how does one keep the path home paved and smooth when one is pointing out to them what they are doing wrong?
in spite of all i've written above, there is also the fact that i am reading everything you wrote with an open mind and it IS making me think about where i stand in terms of how i will act in the future towards h. your posts have definitely made me aware of that, and i do thank you for that too.
those situations where people are noticing that the "be their friend" thing ISN'T working
i haven't noticed or not noticed that yet. i only started being more friendly about a month ago and during that time several things that i didn't expect have happened. several things that h didn't expect have happened. the trip was already planned before these developments i believe, and there is also the thing to consider that my h is one who can take a really long time to turn around from a stance he adopts.
believe me when i tell you starsky - h did not go on this trip all confident and comfortable with where he's at. the times before, yes, but not this time.
don't you think i should wait to see how it pans out before making the detail of this trip the most important thing here?
i've read the mlc forums - the walls have to start crumbling around them - and i can see the cracks getting bigger. that doesn't raise my expectations one bit. but what it does do is tell me to stay still , stay where i'm at and just focus on what i have to do to keep getting to a better and better place.
i don't want to make the mistake of not hearing what you are really trying to tell me. so if you have it in your heart, i would really like to hear what your suggestions are on a tougher approach.
your views on the "do what works" theory - they do intrigue me the way you put it and i would like to hear more about what you think i could do for "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."
your posts didn't upset me - they helped me to see a lot more than you probably intended. i hope that i haven't offended you in any way with my reply. i just wanted to be honest with what i felt and where i'm at (something i have not always been very good at doing, so practicing that on you also, GRIN)
i hope very much that we can continue a discussion here about this, and look really forward to what comes out of it.
thank you starsky
zig
hi there KD
i was sure hoping you were following along. your opinion means a lot to me!!
thanks
Many of our reasons are fear based.
Get rid of the fear means getting rid of the reason which means getting rid of the need for boundaries.and there you go again - opening my eyes a little more. until i read that, it didn't hit me.
of course - that's why it's been so easy to let go of those boundaries. i don't have those same fears any more - the fear that if i'm nice, h will take advantage of me. the fear that if i go closer he will hurt me more , the fear that if i don't let him know constantly that he is doing the wrong thing, he'll keep doing it, etc etc
aaah - more peace.
i'm so damned good right now KD - i know you will be delighted for me:)
hope you are as good - i think you are. i'm beginning to see where you are at.
btw - picnic time? what's your poison?
i'm in a huggy mood, so big hug coming your way -and don't duck, ok?
((((((( )))))))
zig
ps. in fact anyone who comes my way is getting a hug
ng - sweet girl - you sure know how to make a gal feel good.
thank you for all you said, and as i told busting - we ALL need each other on that picnic blanket. i am honored to be there with you, too:)
thanks too as you have generated a great discussion about what is the most difficult decision (or series of decisions) we make while in the ditches ..how to handle contact and boundaries..
yes - if there's any confusing area, it is this one - for all of us. and as i wrote all these posts today i began to see why for the first time. KD's post a few minutes ago sums it up well.
the boundaries are ever-shifting and that's the unease we feel constantly. we want a place to land , to sit tight until this thing blows over one way or the other, but the situations we are in, DEMAND that we stay shifting, ungrounded and constantly adjusting to what we are faced with.
it's the lesson in ultimate flexibility that we are learning here - and until we learn it , until we accept what it is we will stay in that panicky uneasy state, constantly second-guessing ourselves and fearful of what we are doing.
i have finally accepted that there is NO GROUND UNDER MY FEET and that it is okay for it to be that way.
i'll build my ground as i move forward, and so will you and everyone else.
((((( )))))
zig
I managed to fully accept and allow that hug, zig...
{{{{{zig}}}}} back at you.
Many MLCers don't know what is going on with them or may deny they are MLC. Some WAS may use MLC as an excuse or reason for their behaviours. "It's not you, it's me. Maybe I'm having a MLC."
This though:
"spoke to my dad and got the name of a good acctant - here it is. when you call ask him his rates and
don't forget to tell him that you and i are friends and that you know my dad"
Speaks pretty clear of his... "confusion"... My W hasn't really said much like that. What she DOES do is forget things. She recently wrote me an email about the kid schedule. The next morning (like 8 hours later) she writes another email and says, "I don't remember what I wrote in my last email."
errm... maybe she could simply look in her sent items to refresh her memory?
Our journeys are about us. Our enjoyment... our happiness... is contingent on US... and how we react... which is based on our fears...
We ACT on desire... We REACT on fear...
So may your future have more actions... and less reactions...
GRIN - thanks for accepting the hug ! and thanks so much for the one you gave me. i remember the last one you gave me - i was teetering bad, this time i'm good !
KD i am aware that both h and I could be using MLC as an excuse!!
it still doesn't deter from the fact that he's doing what he's doing, no matter how he or i explain it. it's a recent trend - him telling my friends about this mlc - as if in - please don't think bad of me, i'm having a crisis...
i have seen his confusion - all along - DEEP confusion even when he is in the throes of spewing. and others around us have seen the same.
this man has not walked away - he intended to, he has tried desperately to, but he is not letting go. if anyone is letting go, it's me. and not so much as letting go as turning in another direction.
he said to me at one point - "zig, i'm really in love with you and i know that but i am going to fight as hard as i can to deny those feelings and MAKE them go away", then a few minutes later "i feel too vulnerable with you, i can't bear it"
all that in between telling me for 2 hours all the reasons why we can't be together.
the above is what i heard also....
Our journeys are about us. Our enjoyment... our happiness... is contingent on US... and how we react... which is based on our fears...
We ACT on desire... We REACT on fear...
So may your future have more actions... and less reactions...
thank you for your blessing KD - i am, with all the help i am getting here, learning to get to that place.
and GRIN - are you telling me I "reacted" to starsky?????
about your wife - my h does the same - what's the point of pointing out their difficulties? it only adds stress. i don't want to be associated with the additional stress that h would feel if i pointed those things out, so i have always chosen to take the other way where i just gently reply again, or give him the info again. it makes my life easier, and i think his also. as it's been said before - it's not our job to point out where they are at and how they are not doing so well.
hey - i'm going to have to name one of my turtles KD - you realize that, don't you?
it's a huggy day so here we go again
((((( KD ))))))
zig
Glad I could help, Zig. Good luck to you.
Starsky
Zig, Just wanted to say, like others, that your thoughtful, open and insightful account of your position in relation to this issue is so helpful.
I am receiving a lot of encouragement on my thread to wake up to the fact that my H is gone (he is living with OW now) and pretty much have nothing to do with him.
Like you, for me, going NC seems to make things worse.
I'm now acting on my gut and practising my new-found (and wobbly) philosophy of unconditional love and kindness garnished with a healthy dash of 'look at (sexy, capable, non-needy) me'. I still get the occasional trigger that throws me right back to anger and mind-reading, but overall, like you, I feel like I'm in a better place.
It's been inspiring to hear your take on this conflict between the 'kick em to the curb' and 'seduce them' camps (to put it in its most simplistic terms).
The idea of trying to keep our balance on that constantly shifting ground really worked for me. That's how I'm going to think of myself for now.
Thank you so much.
If only that picnic rug was a magic carpet ... we could all fly away to another, happier, place.
I think what's clear with your H is that he is not intending to cake eat. He actually sees being with you as cheating on the OW. Even in his confusion of not wanting to be with you, yet not leaving, he is living as though he is single, in relation to the OW. That is very similar to what my W has been doing. She would not D me, yet she "does not feel M" and likes things the way they are, in regard to our R.
Did you react to Starsky? IDK. It READ like you reacted.
Then again, when you said you stepped back and thought about his post, did you ground yourself and state how you really feel about yourself and life and YOUR path?
If so, then you were simply self affirming that you are living a genuine life that you wish to lead. Nothing more, nothing less. And that is your choice.
One thing is for certain. Starsky did R and by all his accounts, their M is much better than it's ever been. He DID confront his W and it appears that after much thought, she realized her A was much less important than being with him.
Why? IDK. It could have been because he manned up. It could have been because she finally "saw the light". It could be because she felt her hold on the OM was slipping, so she decided to give Starsky another chance. Only she knows why she decided to work on the M.
Zig, you and I one of "those" that are cut from a different cloth. I believe you, like me, have for the most part lived our lives from the perspective of "live and let live". It's just who we are.
Personally, I will not "convince" someone to like me. I will not "compete" for someone's affection. Unless I feel that someone genuinely wants to be my friend, hang out with me... have raunchy, one night stands with me... then hey... awesome...
What I really find interesting is that by the end of my M, I had become so much a person that I did not want to be. And I am somewhat shocked at my reaction to the loss of my W and the nuclear family.
Believe me, I think it really stinks that my kids will grow up without married parents. I believe they have been and will continue to be in some ways, negatively impacted by that.
And...
If my W does not want to be with me... so be it... *shrug*
And...
I WILL be and AM the best ME that I can be. I... like... me...
I have a feeling that someone will like me one day, in "that" way, too...
Keep being who you are, zig. And if what you are doing is working for you... that's freakin' awesome...!
thanks NLW - yes if only we had a magic carpet...
but i'm beginning to see feel and live that picnic blanket as my magic carpet...
I'm now acting on my gut and practising my new-found (and wobbly) philosophy of unconditional love and kindness garnished with a healthy dash of 'look at (sexy, capable, non-needy) me'. I still get the occasional trigger that throws me right back to anger and mind-reading, but overall, like you, I feel like I'm in a better place.
NLW - that's a great way to put it - especially the wobbly part - oh do i feel wobbly , once in a while
It's been inspiring to hear your take on this conflict between the 'kick em to the curb' and 'seduce them' camps (to put it in its most simplistic terms).
now there's some tact i need to learn - my sag mouth blasted off as usual - still have to learn that. lessons from you? i'll take them willingly:)
even though i haven't posted i've been keeping up on your sitch everyday NLW - you are getting great solid advice and you are taking it. 25 and busto have your back and the best part is that you are getting to a better place each and everyday. as a fellow picnicker - i am glad to see you go with it.
(((( ))))
zig
i have finally accepted that there is NO GROUND UNDER MY FEET and that it is okay for it to be that way.
The less ground on your feet, the more you are grounded.
If you are focused on the ground, then you are not focused on yourself. The ground distracts us from what is most important to us.
spiced rum...
ummm... no... not what I'm drinking right now... just my most recent poison of choice...
a turtle...? named after me...? u cray! I'm honoured... I think... lol...
I think what's clear with your H is that he is not intending to cake eat. He actually sees being with you as cheating on the OW. Even in his confusion of not wanting to be with you, yet not leaving, he is living as though he is single, in relation to the OW. That is very similar to what my W has been doing. She would not D me, yet she "does not feel M" and likes things the way they are, in regard to our R.
ah KD , yes - he is NOT cake-eating at all. and i really have come to respect him for that. and yes he does see being with me as cheating on OW. how frustration his that!!!
so you say your wife is similar. and the question that comes to mind -does she show how tortured she is? does she admit to being agonized? my h has said all along that he likes things as they are - but lately - no - he is not liking things as they are turning out to be.Did you react to Starsky? IDK. It READ like you reacted.
Then again, when you said you stepped back and thought about his post, did you ground yourself and state how you really feel about yourself and life and YOUR path?
Yes - i felt I did. It was many hours before I responded - though i realize that time is not the qualifying factor in whether i did that wholly or not. If so, then you were simply self affirming that you are living a genuine life that you wish to lead. Nothing more, nothing less. And that is your choice.
One thing is for certain. Starsky did R and by all his accounts, their M is much better than it's ever been. He DID confront his W and it appears that after much thought, she realized her A was much less important than being with him.
Why? IDK. It could have been because he manned up. It could have been because she finally "saw the light". It could be because she felt her hold on the OM was slipping, so she decided to give Starsky another chance. Only she knows why she decided to work on the M.
I also read your post 3 minutes after you wrote it and have been mulling over what you said since then.
I also saw Starsky's reply. and then i started to think. Did i just do what i always do? defend myself, or did i truly wait and see where I was at. you got me on a vulnerable point here, pointing out to me that starsky
successfully reconciled with his wife - implying that maybe his approach is worth listening to.
on the other hand - i did ask for further dialog with him, but he has chosen clearly not to continue the discussion. his reply made me feel that in saying what i felt, in the way i said it, i stepped over the line and it was not okay for him. so here i am left with a similar response as my h's - when i try to "make myself heard" - and what that seems to lead to. is what i am still doing wrong here? what is there, in the way i respond that hurts and offends others. was it because i clearly said what i didn't like?
I want this to be a truly open discussion - that is the only way to learn. so if you or anyone else is seeing something, that i am not seeing - including you starsky , if you are reading this - i am open to all you have to say.Zig, you and I one of "those" that are cut from a different cloth. I believe you, like me, have for the most part lived our lives from the perspective of "live and let live". It's just who we are.
oh you picked up on that, did ya? (grin)
Personally, I will not "convince" someone to like me. I will not "compete" for someone's affection. Unless I feel that someone genuinely wants to be my friend, hang out with me... have raunchy, one night stands with me... then hey... awesome...
I do feel the same way
What I really find interesting is that by the end of my M, I had become so much a person that I did not want to be. And
I am somewhat shocked at my reaction to the loss of my W and the nuclear family.elaborate? as in that you don't care any longer or something else?
Believe me, I think it really stinks that my kids will grow up without married parents. I believe they have been and will continue to be in some ways, negatively impacted by that.
i feel the same also - but couple with the above..
And...
If my W does not want to be with me... so be it... *shrug*
I don't know if i'm totally at the "shrug" stage yet - but i'm a heck of a lot closer than i ever was
And...
I WILL be and AM the best ME that I can be. I... like... me...
I have a feeling that someone will like me one day, in "that" way, too...
hey you know - i feel like that too!!Keep being who you are, zig. And if what you are doing is working for you... that's freakin' awesome...!
the only ting i know that is working for me is that i've never felt this good about myself - EVER - and in the big pic, KD - that trumps h wanting to work it out!!
you're a good friend KD - thanks...
zig
aah starsky -
I apologize - for offending you.
let it never be said that zig doesn't own her stuff.
I do still believe the things i wrote , but i don't think i was able to put them in a way that didn't cause you offense, and for that I am deeply sorry.
you came here to help - and instead of asking and listening - i went off on my spiel.
I asked a lot of questions - not because i was being defiant, but because i really want to know. I am sorry they came across that way. i was sincerely hoping you would answer them - they were not to make any sort of point.
I am fine if you don't want to answer this post, I wrote it more from a place of wanting to be honest more than anything else
I will hope that you could find it in yourself to continue the conversation - not just for me but for the others also who are trying to find firm ground in this area
sincerely
zig
sure your'e honored -
that means you're swimming alongside, right? .......
spiced rum - what, is it winter there still?
u crayis that ^^^ a typo or some special slang where you're from?
i take it since you told us your drink you're on the picnic blanket!!
cheers
zig
journaling - h just called. the phone rang and by the time i got to it he had left a super hurried message and rang off.
i called him back - and joked lightly about how he couldn't have left a quicker message - he sounded nervous but upbeat - like he was trying hard. i just said here's s - he had called to say goodnight to him and got off quickly.
i was pleased though - this is a change - all the other trips it would be 4 or 5 days before he called and s would seem more and more down. now after talking to h for over 20 mins - he's laying in bed singing at the top of his voice - started right after he got off the phone.
my s is well and it makes my heart warm. and he's well because finally after so long, h is really doing right by him in a lot more ways than before, since the BD.
i did unnerve s yesterday , not realizing that h had not really told him much. h had just told him he was going out of town, and s was shocked to realize that he had already left.i don't think he has any idea when h is coming back - but i will talk to him and make it clear tonight when putting him to bed.
My opinion is that we never really know what may or may not be the reasons for a WAS to "come home". IDK if Starsky knows that your H isn't living at home. That for all intents and purposes, your H is gone, just not filed, yet.
I am glad you self checked after reading my post. That was my hope. It is the beauty of this board that we get all these different perspectives to mull over.
Without a doubt, if what you are doing stops working for you, try something different. And I know I saw Starsky post recently about "what is working" is about what is working for you, to achieve your goal. In your case, I believe that you feel that what you are doing is working to help you achieve your goal, which is a better you, regardless of the outcome of your M.
You asked if my W shows how tortured she is or admit to being agonized.
The short answer is, "no". Early on, she had suggested at one point that she wasn't having an easy time of it (her decision), yet qualified that with suggesting she wasn't going to change her mind. Otherwise, she projects to me and everyone that she is doing fine and while things are a little challenging, she's making due and working things out for herself. So for my W, she won't even allow herself to be vulnerable enough to tell me that she won't allow herself to be vulnerable with me...
You asked if I would elaborate on my saying that I was shocked by my reaction to the sitch.
What I mean is, knowing who I am and what I believe in, which is who I was and what I believed in when I decided to commit to my W, is that as much as I was committing to a lifetime with her, I was also fully aware that people change, change their mind, and there was no guarantee the M would work out and that if it did not, I would be OK.
What that run on sentence means is, I was shocked because I knew better. I KNEW that not all Ms survive. I KNEW that I KNEW better. And I was having a hard time believing that I had become co-dependent. Or at the very least, emotionally enmeshed in the outcome of my M.
So yes, I DO care about my W and children... my nuclear family... It's just that I do realize, understand, and accept that sometimes... D happens... I just have to learn from it and always work on being a better person and be the best dad I can be.
As far as swimming alongside... IDK... are there leeches and weeds? If so... I'm outta the pool...
re: cray? Apparently that's (probably soooooo last year, already) what the early teens in our part of the world say. Some reference to the slang of the "hood", as it were...
well kd - so much for anything working for me..as far as the sitch goes.
just found out from s that h has not only told him exactly where he went, but also told him of ow's presence there.
as far as i can tell he's just put it as - i'm going to visit friend and her mom and friends' sister who's there too.
so i have just found out that ow's name is now known to s. he couldn't remember the name and asked me - i got vague and said i didn't quite remember...yuck
so his singing was about getting excited because h promised to do this project with him when he got back.
but when i lay down next to him and asked if h had told him when he was getting back - his whole demeanor changed and he got tense and seemed really down. then he got clingy and didn't want me to leave. so he is dealing with stuff too - just wish he could open up and express himself and his real feelings so i could tell where he is really at and support him in it.
it's sad for me to have to just stand back and watch him struggle - he is too much like his father and grandfather. he has learned really well that feelings that hurt should be suppressed as much as possible....
on to what you wrote -
i can't say that my goal is to be a better me regardless of the outcome of my marriage. I want both, but of course with what continues to go on - i may not want both always
I was shocked because I knew better. I KNEW that not all Ms survive. I KNEW that I KNEW better. And I was having a hard time believing that I had become co-dependent. Or at the very least, emotionally enmeshed in the outcome of my M.how come you knew better? i didn't know any better - i figured eventually we would iron things out. i didn't know about co-dependency. and aren't we expected to become emotionally enmeshed in our marriages? isn't that what most people do. are you telling me that most marriages that last , the people are not emotionally enmeshed and at any given time can accept that their marriage is over and simply move on?
sheesh, if that is so, i have ALOT to learn
sorry KD - i can't remember right now, if you guys are already D'd or your wife has filed. i'm embarrassed to ask..
no leeches and weeds - the turtles i'm with swim in the most peaceful part of the ocean - deep deep down where things are still and the murmur of the outside world is silenced...
i'm not there right now, but i'm already swimming down ....
aww, that sux for your S, zig...
A quick recap, my W has had at least three EAs that I know of. One was long distance (co-worker) who is gay. I think like most people, my W doesn't believe in fairies nor MLC nor EAs. I think it's the same thing as people who believe that "kids grow up too fast" really don't understand that until they have kids and find out they grow up too fast.
So my W has never admitted to an OP. All she refers to these men in her life to most people that I'm aware of, including me, the kids, and many of her friends (although I'm not sure about her family nor her really, really close friends) is that they are her friends. I really don't know the status of these relationships at this time, although I do know that she still spends a lot of time with these men. It's kind of a bizarre triangle, if I really think about it.
Anyhow, so my kids are loathe to think of their mom as having any sort of "intimate" R with these men. ie. boyfriend. And yet, kids are smart. I know that deep down, both the kids know SOMETHING is... different... with their mom's R with these men, as opposed to my W's R with other men she knows, who are friends.
It's a struggle for the kids, without a doubt... no matter how much they put on a smiling face and claim to be happy because their mom and/or dad are happy.
Of course you'd love to save your M and no matter how deep down you hide that and deny that, it would be true, otherwise you're not likely to still be here. And it's very human and understandable. We say "put that thought... of saving your M... in a box... and seal the lid and place it high up on your bookshelf, for now..."
My dear zig... I've been on this "journey" for the better part of my life. Early in my teen years, I began. Without a doubt, an artefact of self discovery due to being raised in an emotionally and physically volatile environment with two alcoholic parents (and don't even get me started on the alcoholic relatives on both sides of the family)... By the time I was a teenager, I was already "helping" my friends figure out their own drama in their lives. When I got my license at 16, my truck was pretty much known as the travelling therapist's office... lol... If that truck were to ever speak...
Anyhow, by the time I was a young adult (after my DUI and my DUI equivalent and realizing I was travelling a very dangerous path and pattern), I decided to more intimately and officially find a different "way". Which eventually led to the person I am... the person I "was", when I met my W and became enamoured with her.
So... at least in my mind... yeah... I knew better...
Funny thing about "once upon a time, a beautiful princess met her prince charming and they lived happily ever after"...
If one takes a close look... that fairy tale book... sometimes known as the hollywood M... is a study in co-dependency...
I try to refrain from ever bursting anyone's bubble... still, from a psychological perspective... life long M's are not fairytale... they are filled with ups and downs and people who either really work at it... or decide to settle because they don't like the alternative...
Yes... people become emotionally enmeshed... it's somehow inherent in our biology. I have a theory that it's the core thoughts that began with the early greek philosophers and eventually became part of our current theologies and M vows and to some extent, our laws, that tried to encapsulate that understanding in what is considered morally, ethically, and socially acceptable. ie. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife or For better or for worse... etc, etc...
Not sure if you knew this, but there are only about six animals on this earth which mate for life... all of them are of the avian species...
But I digress...
To answer your question regarding the status of my M. There is still a legal document on record that we are M, although we do have an SA in place. I begged my W to D me, prior to her submitting to filing an SA. She will not file D. She says, that is up to me. For now... that's her position...
OK, if the water is warm, I'll swim... but I'm bringing my rubber ducky, just in case...
Zig and KD and starsky wow what an intense debate/ conversation with lots to think about.
Thank you for putting so much out there. Not only do I learn and am forced to think, rethink, and think again, but I also learn how to better express myself see the 'finer print' of my sitch for lack of a better phrase.
KD- the spiced rum is ready, I have laid out a bigger blanket as well.
aah starsky -
I apologize - for offending you.
let it never be said that zig doesn't own her stuff.
I do still believe the things i wrote , but i don't think i was able to put them in a way that didn't cause you offense, and for that I am deeply sorry.
you came here to help - and instead of asking and listening - i went off on my spiel.
I asked a lot of questions - not because i was being defiant, but because i really want to know. I am sorry they came across that way. i was sincerely hoping you would answer them - they were not to make any sort of point.
I am fine if you don't want to answer this post, I wrote it more from a place of wanting to be honest more than anything else
I will hope that you could find it in yourself to continue the conversation - not just for me but for the others also who are trying to find firm ground in this area
sincerely
zig
Zig,
I was not in the least bit offended, and no apology necessary. This is a place full of hurting, struggling people, and I never take anything personally. I only have a limited amount of time to spend on the forum these days, and so I try to identify situations where someone feels their current approach is NOT working ... for them. Since you are content with your current strategy, and my "challenge" posts seemed to only be upsetting you, that's why I said good-bye.
Your approach seems to be "Boundaries are only necessary to the extent that my husband's poor behavior BOTHERS me. So I'm teaching myself not to be bothered, and so then I don't need the boundaries." I couldn't disagree with this more strongly, and I think it's not only affecting you (your upbeat mood notwithstanding), but I don't believe it builds respect and attraction from a wayward spouse, and I also see now that your son is picking up on things.
I'd still like to know what you did for "5-10 years" that you feel was abusive to your husband, and yes it does change my advice somewhat. I would hope that we would ALL try to tailor our advice to people's specific situations, so I'm not sure why that would be confusing to you.
Starsky
you talk about boundaries? i believe i am learning for the first time in my life, albeit a little late, about what those mean.
and i have a boundary here: I am open to all discussion and interaction and am willing to partake in it wholeheartedly. but what i will not accept from anyone is outright derision.
Zig, if you don't see his going off and continuing to have a physical affair with another woman -- while knowing that you know about it -- as a HUGE problem, then I'm afraid there's nothing I can offer you. "Part of his path" ???
Puhleeze. I'm sorry, in my opinion that's just a bunch of hokum.
If that is not derision and scorn, then I don't know what is.
Zig,
I assumed that "this is part of the journey I'm on" was your cheating HUSBAND'S stance on his behavior -- not yours. So any derision was directed at him, not you. I apologize if you felt I was deriding YOU.
See, I don't believe in the whole MLC "this is the path I must walk" stuff. To me, "crap behavior is crap behavior," and should be dealt with as such. I don't believe that "MLC affairs" -- whatever those even are -- should be dealt with any differently than any other type of affair.
Yes, that is a decidedly different position than most on the MLC forum, and even many on this forum, but I'm not the only one. Maybe I'm the only one who vocalizes it.
In any event, I'm sorry if my exasperation came across as deriding you or your struggle. I really do want you to succeed, and your husband to return to your family.
Starsky
I will leave you with this personal story, from a friend of mine. It's just a story, from her situation, but in my experience, her exH's observations are pretty typical. If nothing else, maybe it will make someone out there think, and challenge their current assumptions:
He literally told our MC that what I had considered strong over years of our marriage (forgiving him for cheating more than once, putting up with his crap by convincing myself it was 'unconditional love', etc.), he considered WEAK. Cheaters or people of low integrity don't view unconditional love/acceptance/tolerance/enabling of their behavior as saintly, they find it pathetic. Nobody stays madly in love with someone they consider weak and pathetic.
Learn from my mistakes and those of other people on these forums. My ex cheated with a coworker who had a lower/subordinate position. He told me the boss threatened his job if he was messing around with her--the boss even suspected him before I did.
So I actually took my children to watch my then-H go bowling one night. It was his weekly bowling league through work. I knew he'd slept w the coworker who was also on his team, but I feared that if word got out, my then H would lose his job and blame me and I didn't want him angry at me because then he might leave me. *Let that misguided logic--coming from a place of fear--sink in.*
I took the kids so that coworkers and superiors who were there would see me and realize that my H couldn't possibly be cheating because if he were I'd never show up there and actually be pleasant. I did it thinking it would save his job and he would be so amazed at my poise/grace/courage that he'd see me in a whole new light.
What actually happened? The kids and I left,and H and gf had to stay behind to discuss how "manipulative" I had been, coming and acting like things were fine. Understand THIS: if you are accomodating, they will talk about how this is some underhanded ploy on your part. Or, they will talk about how pitiful you are. If you stand your ground, they may hit a rough spot. Or they may band together to talk about how much of a jerk you are.
That's why you CAN'T act from a place of fear or a place of trying to control the outcome. All you can do is decide what you will and will not tolerate and act from that position. If you decide you'd rather have pieces of your wife that she deigns to give you than risk losing her, then accept that what you have now is what you will always have, unless/until she gets her feet under her enough to just walk away entirely. Stop whining about it and stressing about it and acknowledge that you've chosen to accept this lot in life.
Or decide that you will not tolerate it anymore. No more talking. No more reacting. If she goes out dressed to "[Bleep!] it up" after saying she wouldn't, if she goes to meet a guy for a dinner, let her come home to an empty house. Take the kids and go stay somewhere else. I did this twice and both times came home the next day when ex said he wanted me home (yet I didn't hold out for actions, just accepted the words, big mistake). I regret that I didn't just go and stay gone as long as he continued his crap behavior. Take half (at least half) of everything and open a new bank account that she cannot access. Stop talking and ACT to protect yourself and your kids.
As for sex, I honestly was at a point where I felt like if I was still sleeping with my ex even though he was seeing OW, I was 'winning' bc they would fight bc we still slept together. I went for a full STD panel and it came back clean. A few months later OW texted me informing me that ex told her it came back clean, and that A)She was glad she didn't catch anything from ME (WTF) and B)Once she knew about the clean panel they quit using protection entirely.
Loooong story short: the more I gave in, the more I tried to love unconditionally, be patient without demands/expectations, be the more desirable person, be available, and talk, talk talk the situation to death, the more he gradually pulled away. After 2 years of that dance, he moved out for the last time. Now his gf has moved to our town. Our kids go to school together which my son hates. The gf and my ex are planning to move into a house together sometime in the near future--they already are together 80% of the time. And as I call him ex, we obv got divorced. Don't go down the same road. I might still be divorced had I taken a tougher stance, but I would have had more respect for myself and fewer regrets. Ultimately I filed for D because I knew my kids were watching me and I didn't want to teach them that being treated that way was ok.
Starsky
And just has she had her journey, we each have ours. You can't fast forward this, it's a process just as I'm sure yours was, Starsky.
We each have to find the way that works for us. It may not be what worked for you and that's OK. Doesn't mean you're wrong or someone else is right, it just is.
This stood out for me in the above story:
That's why you CAN'T act from a place of fear or a place of trying to control the outcome.
I think that's good advice for all of us.
It's not a matter of "fast-forwarding" things. It's a matter of putting boundaries in place for you and your kids that protect them from the cheating spouse's destructive behavior. Legal, financial, emotional (and sometimes physical) protections.
My situation lasted only 3 months, but piecing took FAR longer -- 2-5 years (and we are still, of course, piecing every day to some degree). I know that's not typical, but I don't believe that anyone should have to endure what I consider to be emotional abuse for several YEARS. When one spouse is cheating, the other spouse knows it, and the cheating spouse KNOWS that they know and they know how much it is hurting them . . . and then continue in it, lying to their own kids . . . yes, I consider that emotional abuse.
I guess we just define "works" differently, labug. I define it as "making demonstrable moves away from their affair partner, and back towards the marriage" -- not as whether or not they're being "nice."
Again, maybe I'm in the minority on this stuff. Certainly doesn't hurt to have an alternative voice, if nothing else.
Starsky
Did I use the word nice?
I have boundaries in place for me, my kids are adults, I don't have a cheating spouse.
A for as the definition of works, I used it in the context of decision-making throughout the process.
No on is disagreeing with you on the boundaries, it's just you can't decree it and make it so. Forcing someone to set boundaries before they are able to enforce them will be counterproductive in my estimation. That's the process, when the time is right they will do it. For some the time is never right and they never do it.
Life goes on.
And there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat.
The best advice I've ever received about support groups is from Al Anon. There are no experts here; take what you can use, leave the rest.
No on is disagreeing with you on the boundaries, it's just you can't decree it and make it so. Forcing someone to set boundaries before they are able to enforce them will be counterproductive in my estimation. That's the process, when the time is right they will do it. For some the time is never right and they never do it.
When others see people unable (or not yet ready) to enforce boundaries, they then advise not to set them.
When I see that, I teach and encourage them to learn how to set and enforce boundaries.
That's just me. I can be a curmudgeon/SOB, but I'd rather exhort and lift them up to a tougher stance, and at least TRY to get them faster results. And no, it's certainly not guaranteed.
Starsky
The best advice I've ever received about support groups is from Al Anon. There are no experts here; take what you can use, leave the rest.
On that we can agree, 'bug.
Starsky
Well... I am certainly thinking now. This a great discussion
I'm glad you're getting something out of it, busting, but I don't want to hijack Zig's thread, nor do I want to antagonize her.
Zig, please let me know if you want me to continue to post these challenges to you. No more "derision," I promise!
Starsky
What sort of example do you feel that you are setting for your child by allowing your H to continue an A right under your nose?
i've been following along since early morning, starsky.
thank you for this discussion - and you are not hijacking one bit. I WANT this discussion - not only for myself but for others too, and I'm more than happy for it to be here on my thread. So go all out, starsky. I think it's time to hack it all out. and yes please - post these challenges - i do want to explore this area.
the reason i haven't posted back yet or replied in anyway is because I need some time here.
last nights' small revelation triggered off some HUGE stuff for me - and i just need time to start breathing again.
about the "it's his path" - those were my words not h's. his words were "i'm not doing this TO you, I'm just doing it" and "this is who i really am, you just didn't realize it" - said in the 2-3 months after BD.
labug and starsky - please continue the dialog you started this morning - there are things that need to be said and i don't think that this is a time for "diplomacy"
as for me, i just want to listen for a bit - i talk too damn much!!
busting -come hijack too. in fact everybody - this has been an underlying tension on this board, probably always - which stand to take, which way to go -and i for one would love a really open honest discussion about it
thank you starsky - and i am really reading what you are writing
zig
i didn't know about co-dependency. and aren't we expected to become emotionally enmeshed in our marriages? isn't that what most people do. are you telling me that most marriages that last, the people are not emotionally enmeshed and at any given time can accept that their marriage is over and simply move on?
Popular culture would have us believe that enmeshment is the goal. It may be the norm, but it's not healthy or functional. Yes, there is interdependence. But, those of us who become emotionally enmeshed don't fare well and neither does the R.
It's my observation that the long term
really happily married couples have a secret called detachment. The ability to be loving and kind and close without losing your sense of self and your healthy boundaries (which, as Starsky points out, have to do with our own thoughts and actions, and are not attempts to control the other's behavior).
About that picnic, is it too late in the season for rhubarb margaritas?
SD, I would love to try the rhubarb margaritas..bring them on!
I heard a psychologist say once that our M should be like a fruit salad, not a smoothie.. in a fruit salad, the individual fruits retain their uniqueness.
Love this discussion.
Just popping my head in....Zig knows my thoughts on a lot of this already but in terms of the debate on forceful action vs letting them come to you or standing still etc....
I've always said I don't want a partner I had to force to be with me. I want him to choose to want to be with me.
Like several other people have said not every idea works for every sitch. Take what you can learn from and leave the rest. No one on here is an expert. We're all just trying to figure out the best way to get by.
i didn't know about co-dependency. and aren't we expected to become emotionally enmeshed in our marriages? isn't that what most people do. are you telling me that most marriages that last, the people are not emotionally enmeshed and at any given time can accept that their marriage is over and simply move on?
Popular culture would have us believe that enmeshment is the goal. It may be the norm, but it's not healthy or functional. Yes, there is interdependence. But, those of us who become emotionally enmeshed don't fare well and neither does the R.
It's my observation that the long term
really happily married couples have a secret called detachment. The ability to be loving and kind and close without losing your sense of self and your healthy boundaries (which, as Starsky points out, have to do with our own thoughts and actions, and are not attempts to control the other's behavior).
^^^ I'm going thru this with our adult daughters now, who -- unfortunately -- picked up a lot of their unhealthy enmeshment/co-dependency habits from my wife and me.
The whole Jerry McGuire "You complete me" thing is a bunch of b.s., and it's UNHEALTHY. Our spouse cannot be part of our happiness cake. They should only be the
frosting.
Starsky
I heard a psychologist say once that our M should be like a fruit salad, not a smoothie.. in a fruit salad, the individual fruits retain their uniqueness.
Another great way to look at it, NG.
Starsky
I remember a scene once in M*A*S*H, when Radar was watching home movies from back in Iowa, where his family was having a backyard bbq. "Oh, that fruit salad with the little marshmallows in it!" Radar exclaimed, excitedly. "Yeah, what do they call that?" Hawkeye asked. "That fruit salad, with the little marshmallows in it," Radar replied.
Just popping my head in....Zig knows my thoughts on a lot of this already but in terms of the debate on forceful action vs letting them come to you or standing still etc....
I've always said I don't want a partner I had to force to be with me. I want him to choose to want to be with me.
Just to be clear, Brit (because I agree with what you wrote here ^^), the "forceful action" that I usually advocate is ONLY with the idea to "separate the addict (the cheater) from the source of their addiction (their affair partner)," as soon as possible, to prevent further damage (strengthening of their emotional bond, erosion of the family's finances, harm to the betrayed spouse's and the children's emotional psyche, etc.).
I.O.W., it's a
first step. After that, the true work begins, and whether it starts with a Retrouvaille weekend, good ongoing MCing with an MC/FT specifically trained in infidelity, or what . . . THAT is when the marriage is re-built about mutually healthy behaviors and attitudes.
To me, it's simply "pouring the liquor down the drain," or "getting the matches and kerosene out of the house" -- a necessary first step before true healing can begin, and the formerly cheating spouse can begin to open themselves up to having their emotional needs met again by their betrayed spouse.
Starsky
i've been following along since early morning, starsky.
thank you for this discussion - and you are not hijacking one bit. I WANT this discussion - not only for myself but for others too, and I'm more than happy for it to be here on my thread. So go all out, starsky. I think it's time to hack it all out. and yes please - post these challenges - i do want to explore this area.
the reason i haven't posted back yet or replied in anyway is because I need some time here.
last nights' small revelation triggered off some HUGE stuff for me - and i just need time to start breathing again.
about the "it's his path" - those were my words not h's. his words were "i'm not doing this TO you, I'm just doing it" and "this is who i really am, you just didn't realize it" - said in the 2-3 months after BD.
labug and starsky - please continue the dialog you started this morning - there are things that need to be said and i don't think that this is a time for "diplomacy"
as for me, i just want to listen for a bit - i talk too damn much!!
busting -come hijack too. in fact everybody - this has been an underlying tension on this board, probably always - which stand to take, which way to go -and i for one would love a really open honest discussion about it
thank you starsky - and i am really reading what you are writing
zig
Thank you, Zig -- and I hope today is better for you. Rather than listening to me "pontificate," maybe you can ask me some specific questions or challenge some specific assertions of mine when you're up for it. It's easier for me to respond to specifics -- just the way my male brain is wired.
I do appreciate your open-mindedness. I know this isn't easy.
Starsky
I heard a psychologist say once that our M should be like a fruit salad, not a smoothie.. in a fruit salad, the individual fruits retain their uniqueness.
NG, from one fruit to another, I'm getting a big kick out of that analogy!
Just to be clear, Brit (because I agree with what you wrote here ^^), the "forceful action" that I usually advocate is ONLY with the idea to "separate the addict (the cheater) from the source of their addiction (their affair partner)," as soon as possible, to prevent further damage (strengthening of their emotional bond, erosion of the family's finances, harm to the betrayed spouse's and the children's emotional psyche, etc.).
Starsky - how to separate the addict when the addict doesn't see a problem?
SD, LMAO!! Thanks!! I will be laughing all day at that.
Starsky - how to separate the addict when the addict doesn't see a problem?
This is the big question.
FTR, I pretty much agree with Starsky in most sitchs. I don't necessarily disagree with anything he's posted here on this thread.
For me, what is blatantly obvious in this sitch and a few others, is that the WAS is in a strong stance of believing what they are doing is in fact, right and appropriate.
I don't actually think an addict doesn't see the problem. I am more of the mind that an addict just denies the problem, pushes it down, buries it... often, with more of the same behaviour. It's their pattern, which is why they are addicted in the first place.
The coaches that advised both Brit and Zig to "seduce" their Hs is right on, IMHO. And not because they women, it would work similarly for men, as well.
Otherwise, it's one strong minded individual going straight up with another strong minded individual and all they do is yell in each others face. Eventually, one will succumb... sure...
Zig's H, Brit's H, even my wife... Their spouses DO like them. There's an obvious attraction... and then they spew or run away and hide, when they get too close...
This becomes classic pursuit/distance...
The WAS can't know they want the LBS if their back is always facing the LBS because the WAS is running away...
If the LBS stops and puts on "the show"... the WAS might stop and turn around and actually see what they're missing and what they really want...
The WAS needs to be allowed to pursue...
Hi KD-
I relate very much to zig and Brit I guess because I see a lot of my H in theirs. I was advised by my DB coach to act like the OW and more recently to warm it up a bit with my H. ( I have had very little interaction with my H over the past 3 months).
Over the past year before DB there were moments ( this is all in hindsight), of him softening to me. But my relentless pursuit seems to have pushed him (too?) far.
I don't disagree with separating the addict at all. I mean this is all I was trying to do over the past year ( but in all the wrong ways). I truly want a CHNCE at R, I by no means think once she is out everything will be flowers.
I guess I just don't know how. Now that he is PA, he is no longer ' confused' about what he wants. He is now in the throes of honeymoon stage. How can you get an addict away from that?
In their most simplistic terms, boundaries are to keep people out, not to keep people in.
MWD does not promote exposure. Although some swear that exposure is the only way to force an A to stop. Of course, that assumes that the A couple had not exposed themselves, already.
If the WAS is running away, the LBS telling them that if they keep running, the LBS will leave... well... that's about as crazy as the WAS thinking their happiness is found in someone or something else, rather than inside them.
To take what I interpret Starsky to be saying in a DB context. LRT worked for him. And LRT worked most recently for Denver_2010.
That said, LRT is truly... the Last Resort Technique.
ie. Look WAS... I'm done here. Either you brain up and figure out what you want, which I hope is me, then I'm done and outta here... c'ya...
And then LBS leaves the building...
That's a choice the LBS may face, one day.
I have no idea what the DB success stats would be if each and everyone of us went straight to LRT. Maybe better, maybe worse.
MWD promotes other methods first, because sometimes things don't have to be so dramatic or black and white.
It is statistically accurate to indicate that any R, including an A, has it's initial moment of bliss, which then settles into mundane. There is no separating the WAS from the A without the WAS being motivated to leave the A.
If the LBS can figure out the motivation for the WAS and provide an even more seductive "pot of gold", then that might help.
Other than that, LRT might or might not work. At least, the LBS draws their line and the M is over.
What we do see is, even after LRT which does not save the M... both the LBS and the WAS will have regrets sometime down the road...
For me, what is blatantly obvious in this sitch and a few others, is that the WAS is in a strong stance of believing what they are doing is in fact, right and appropriate.
I don't actually think an addict doesn't see the problem. I am more of the mind that an addict just denies the problem, pushes it down, buries it... often, with more of the same behaviour. It's their pattern, which is why they are addicted in the first place.
KD,
I'm failing to see the distinction you're trying to make here. Both of these types of people are in major DENIAL. Yes, I would advocate TRYING to get them to see what they're doing is harming both them and the ones they love, but whether or not I was successful at that, I would still do everything within my power to try to separate them from the source of their addiction, as soon as possible.
Starsky
The coaches that advised both Brit and Zig to "seduce" their Hs is right on, IMHO.
Unless I'm missing something (and I really haven't followed Brit's situation, at all) I couldn't DISAGREE more. If the cheating spouse has ENDED all contact with their affair partner, but still not taken any steps back towards the marriage, then yes -- by all means try to seduce them. Especially if the betrayed spouse's lower sexual drive has been a complaint in the past, and/or sex has been a problem in the marriage in general.
But if they're still actively carrying on an affair? Try to get them to have sex with you? That only enables their bad behavior (basic common sense), and I at least HOPE TO GOD that one would use protection in that situation.
Humans -- men, especially -- are path-of-least-resistance creatures. If we get to have our cake and eat it, too, and there's no "fear of loss" to motivate us, we're simply going to keep on our current path, in my experience.
Starsky
In their most simplistic terms, boundaries are to keep people out, not to keep people in.
MWD does not promote exposure. Although some swear that exposure is the only way to force an A to stop. Of course, that assumes that the A couple had not exposed themselves, already.
If the WAS is running away, the LBS telling them that if they keep running, the LBS will leave... well... that's about as crazy as the WAS thinking their happiness is found in someone or something else, rather than inside them.
To take what I interpret Starsky to be saying in a DB context. LRT worked for him. And LRT worked most recently for Denver_2010.
That said, LRT is truly... the Last Resort Technique.
ie. Look WAS... I'm done here. Either you brain up and figure out what you want, which I hope is me, then I'm done and outta here... c'ya...
And then LBS leaves the building...
That's a choice the LBS may face, one day.
I have no idea what the DB success stats would be if each and everyone of us went straight to LRT. Maybe better, maybe worse.
MWD promotes other methods first, because sometimes things don't have to be so dramatic or black and white.
It is statistically accurate to indicate that any R, including an A, has it's initial moment of bliss, which then settles into mundane. There is no separating the WAS from the A without the WAS being motivated to leave the A.
If the LBS can figure out the motivation for the WAS and provide an even more seductive "pot of gold", then that might help.
Other than that, LRT might or might not work. At least, the LBS draws their line and the M is over.
What we do see is, even after LRT which does not save the M... both the LBS and the WAS will have regrets sometime down the road...
KD, that's a really good and thorough description of the differing philosophies, and the dilemmas associated with them. In my experience, when there is active infidelity going on -- especially long-term, remorseless physical affairs (where the betrayed spouse knows, and the cheating spouse KNOWS that they know, yet continues anyway) it's best to go immediately to the LRT or even the after-the-LRT.
In all my years on here, and studying literally hundreds of affairs, there are really only two things I've seen work: the "let them go" thing or the "actively-affair-bust-with-everything-you-got" thing. (And one can do the latter, first, and then let them go; you realy can't do it the other way around). But it's not until you really move on that you draw them back, sadly (google that scene in the movie "Swingers" sometime -- it's exactly like that).
Starsky
yep Starsky Zig and I have separate DB coaches and they both encouraged us to seduce our spouses. I didn't really go along with the idea of getting him into bed. But she did suggest that I always dress nice, flirt, have a bit of phsyical touch here and there, give him clear signals that I was not drawing a line, closing a door etc. Her reasoning was that men were very simple creatures they go where they feel good. I needed to make our house where he felt good, make all our interactions feel good ones.
Then he would find that he enjoyed his time at mine more than he did at his place (with his GF)
he didn't have an affair BTW, I left him, we both dated other people, then I had change of heart and wanted to work on the marriage. But he is now living with someone else.
yep Starsky Zig and I have separate DB coaches and they both encouraged us to seduce our spouses. I didn't really go along with the idea of getting him into bed. But she did suggest that I always dress nice, flirt, have a bit of phsyical touch here and there, give him clear signals that I was not drawing a line, closing a door etc. Her reasoning was that men were very simple creatures they go where they feel good. I needed to make our house where he felt good, make all our interactions feel good ones.
Then he would find that he enjoyed his time at mine more than he did at his place (with his GF)
he didn't have an affair BTW, I left him, we both dated other people, then I had change of heart and wanted to work on the marriage. But he is now living with someone else.
If he's not in a current affair, I have no problem with this approach.
yep Starsky Zig and I have separate DB coaches and they both encouraged us to seduce our spouses. I didn't really go along with the idea of getting him into bed. But she did suggest that I always dress nice, flirt, have a bit of phsyical touch here and there, give him clear signals that I was not drawing a line, closing a door etc. Her reasoning was that men were very simple creatures they go where they feel good. I needed to make our house where he felt good, make all our interactions feel good ones.
Then he would find that he enjoyed his time at mine more than he did at his place (with his GF)
he didn't have an affair BTW, I left him, we both dated other people, then I had change of heart and wanted to work on the marriage. But he is now living with someone else.
Wow!
Simple creatures.
Mind your boundaries first. Be as hot and sexy as you want, but don't be doing it to get him back while he is busy affairing.
The thing is men are such simple creatures that if we can have 2 or 3 or 4 women pursuing us, why would we want to reduce that back down to 1?
Let me ask you something. What made you have the change of heart about him? Was it because he was pursuing you and trying to seduce you?
Didn't think so.
I think it's important for an LBS in an infidelity situation to truly grok the "I'm already dead" principle.
I think that in Zig and Brit's sitches, they have that understanding.
So there's no M to save. Now... it's just a matter of doing what ever works for them.
To put it in vulgar terms, their H's are just another piece of meat.
I don't see either as being desperate and setting themselves up to be abused. I also see them both struggling with the idea of seducing an attached man. And I see that as positives, in them.
Yet, if they do what they do... really embrace their feminine side... and their Hs are simple creatures... it MAY draw their Hs back to them. That would then be an appropriate time for them to set boundaries with their H's. "IF you want some of dis... then u gotta ditch bimbo..."
"IF you want some of dis... then u gotta ditch bimbo..."
HAHAHAHAHAHA
In my sitch my H is very very very against ever having an affair. He is very much a one woman guy. However I'm seeing him acting towards me in a way that he wouldn't act towards a woman if he's in a relationship and I think he struggles with that. However it is still a dangerous game to play, because as the H's get closer you have to manage expectations and you are of course opening yourself up to being rejected, to being an Ow yourself, etc.
I'm not advocating this approach. For me, I'm happy that H and I have a better friendship that we didn't have previously. And I think I'm ready for my own R that doesn't involve me having to seduce, lure, or be an Ow.
The thing is men are such simple creatures that if we can have 2 or 3 or 4 women pursuing us, why would we want to reduce that back down to 1?
I'd hate to think the only reason why men get M is because they don't have 2 or more women pursuing them...
There are a lot of men who choose not to be enticed by a seductress or a late night, drug induced flirtation...
Busto, you wrote in NLW's thread about not doing these types of things, including being friends with the WAS as an attempt to win them back.
I agree without a doubt, that is very important.
On one hand, we're not here because we are OK with D. So ultimately, we are here to save our Ms. To "win our spouses back". Even LRT is a tactic, if we accept our spouses back after we move on.
I think that the proof of concept of DB really is those who don't save their Ms, but rather move on with their life in healthy ways.
As much as I used to think it's nutz for people who D, to be friends... now... I'm pretty sure that is, without a doubt, the BEST option...
...when there is active infidelity going on -- especially long-term, remorseless physical affairs (where the betrayed spouse knows, and the cheating spouse KNOWS that they know, yet continues anyway) it's best to go immediately to the LRT or even the after-the-LRT.
I agree.
And once the LBS frees themselves of the emotional attachment and moves on with their life?
I agree that LRT is moving on. Whether or not the LBS verbally expresses that to the WAS or not, I think that's what is at this debate.
My philosophy is, words don't matter. Move on by moving on. Show it. DO IT. The WAS will do what they will, beyond that point.
And moving on is just being genuine. It doesn't mean being flirty in front of the WAS and not in front of others. Nor does it mean being frumpy in general and then being a seductress in front of the WAS.
If I am not M to my W, and she is just some woman on the street like any other, I am going to be who I am, regardless of what she does or how she interprets my behaviour.
IMHO, Brit's a little more advanced in this, in certain ways.
She is moving on and yet has chosen to continue to be friends with her H, regardless. As she mentions above, she will not chase an attached man.
Zig is still in the process of becoming genuine. I think that using her WAS as practice to being genuine and seductive is OK.
I personally think it's OK for her to have sex with her H, so long as protection is used. I think she has proven with her one episode, that she can remain detached even after intimate contact. And if she never does it again, fair enough. She gets to make that choice.
And in the mean time, she moves on.
And if or when her H ever begins to actively and consistently pursue her, she can set the conditions and the boundaries of what he can and can not have.
WOW!!
keep it coming, guys.
I'm silent today - for the first time in my life i think!!
i just want to listen.
this whole convo is great - i will join in, but later
i just have to stay stepped back right now.
thanks all... so much for this
zig
ps. I really LOVE that you guys are analyzing this. I just need to listen right now, to all the different perspectives
saw this after - you have really caught on to exactly where brit and i are at - exactly!
you astonish me, with your perception.
i have said those exact same words to myself!!!
shaking my head in amazement......
I just had to bring over something that Bustorama just posted on someone else's thread that just put things so clearly for me re. moving on. Hope it helps anyone else:
"The thing that I think alot of people struggle with and some never really get is that moving on does not mean that you need to be cold, angry, vindictive, shut-off, shrill, an a-hole, bitchy. It's possible to be quite friendly with them, even flirty and sexy with them, even empathetic and listening. The difference is that it's not done with any intention of getting them back, of seducing them or whatever. You are just behaving that way because it is who you are and how you wish to interact with people generally."
"The thing that I think alot of people struggle with and some never really get is that moving on does not mean that you need to be cold, angry, vindictive, shut-off, shrill, an a-hole, bitchy. It's possible to be quite friendly with them, even flirty and sexy with them, even empathetic and listening. The difference is that it's not done with any intention of getting them back, of seducing them or whatever. You are just behaving that way because it is who you are and how you wish to interact with people generally."
I guess to do this means the rope is dropped. And fear has been dropped as well.
I think it's important for an LBS in an infidelity situation to truly grok the "I'm already dead" principle.
I think that in Zig and Brit's sitches, they have that understanding.
So there's no M to save. Now... it's just a matter of doing what ever works for them.
To put it in vulgar terms, their H's are just another piece of meat.
I don't see either as being desperate and setting themselves up to be abused. I also see them both struggling with the idea of seducing an attached man. And I see that as positives, in them.
Yet, if they do what they do... really embrace their feminine side... and their Hs are simple creatures... it MAY draw their Hs back to them. That would then be an appropriate time for them to set boundaries with their H's. "IF you want some of dis... then u gotta ditch bimbo..."
KD I hope you can tell the difference between Zig and Brit and their stitches.
Personally if a DB coach said that to me. I would ask them for the papers and studies they read that backs up that claim.
I sure hope I can tell the difference between Zig and Brit's sitches...
Every once in a while we get "that" post here, indicating that the only experts here are MWD and the coaches.
Suggesting that the coaches should have papers and studies to back up their advice, is like saying that Brit, Zig, and all the others who speak to the coaches have wasted their money. I think that's dangerous ground.
Personally, if coaches are advising this stuff, then I would first suggest trying what the coach is suggesting. And if that doesn't work, try something different.
I definitely am supporting zig (and brit) based on what their coaches have suggested, in combination with what they say they want... their... "adjustment"...
KD I hope you can tell the difference between Zig and Brit and their stitches.
Personally if a DB coach said that to me. I would ask them for the papers and studies they read that backs up that claim.
I've been reading along, and I gotta say this discussion is really great! I'm getting so much out of this!
Chatterbug, one could ask the same of Starksy who has stated on multiple occasions that he has studied hundreds of sitches or Ms. Yes, what he's suggesting worked for his sitch. But in how many of those hundreds did it work? Just a thought.
I definitely am supporting zig (and brit) based on what their coaches have suggested, in combination with what they say they want... their... "adjustment"...
about time you indicated that - I had no idea!!
hey - i admit openly i'm hiding out!!
why am i hiding out?
i have no idea
but if this one goes as all the others - something is about to emerge, come to the surface, erupt, whatever...
i'm so exhausted from last nights' eruption that the only thing i could do today was vacuum (mindless) and lay on a raft in the pool in my sexy swimsuit (mindless) !!!
starsky - i am following along and i don't know why i have just gone mum!!
considering how much i usually post, i am rather surprised myself.
but i wanted to respond at least to say that i am so glad that all of you, are having this discussion right now.
you asked me if i could ask specific questions. i know i will have questions - but i am not clear yet on what they are. for once i just need to really digest.
i'm at some turning point, but i don't know about what. i think i'm finally getting "staying still" - not about anything external like h or the sitch, but in terms of my mind
thank you
zig
The thing is men are such simple creatures that if we can have 2 or 3 or 4 women pursuing us, why would we want to reduce that back down to 1?
I'd hate to think the only reason why men get M is because they don't have 2 or more women pursuing them...
There are a lot of men who choose not to be enticed by a seductress or a late night, drug induced flirtation...
Right, they are operating within appropriate relationship boundaries.
People engaged in affairs are not.
That's exactly why I see it as a dangerous and counterproductive idea (IMO) for Brit and Zig to "go there."
To use the addict analogy, it's a little like Brit and Zig bringing better and free drugs to the party, hoping to steal their binging WAS from the dealer at the other crack house. Seems like it may violate core boundaries of they want to be treated in and interact with others in committed relationships. It also conveys an odd message to spouse "If you cheat on me, I'll reward you by chasing you down and give you an even better time!"
Brit and Zig are special and valuable in their own right. You convey your value not by pursuing into the sewers. But, by knowing that you are hot and worthy and you won't have anything to do with the sewers nor do you want to commingle with people in the sewers. They can be hot as hell and desirable getting on with their lives without pursuing their WAS while they are in A mode.
busto - that's not a very correct analogy about what brit and i are doing.
this idea that we are "seducing " them away is a little one-sided.
when i asked my coach about how to approach that she said - throw a little hint and see if he takes you up on it.
then you make it d@mn d@mn clear that he better understand that this was no strings attached and that he better NOT have any expectations. that i was only doing this because we had good sex together, i hadn't in a bloody long time and needed some, and that's all there was to it.
so this idea that h was getting the goods is backwards.
i was getting the goods!! and i was really clear on it. the next morning, it was h who was seriously messed up - and admitted that it really f'ed him up. i looked him straight in the eye and said - we can't be doing this if you get messed up about it - i thought i made that really clear.
so slightly - or rather VERY different picture from what you guys are trying to portray this is about.
i wanted to add this here, before the discussion gets any further, to ensure that what your stand is against - is not exactly what either brit or me are doing.
i told h earlier. i don't choose to go outside this r to have my sexual needs met. not until a divorce is final. you as my h are the only one who can meet them.
that^^^ was from my IC the week before!!! she said - use it as material to see where you and he are at. i found out where i was at, and h sure did too - but not what either of us expected, i think.
as a warning to anyone reading this and thinking they want to try it - you absolutely cannot do this until you are detached enough. it will mindf^^k you otherwise!!
zig
as a warning to anyone reading this and thinking they want to try it - you absolutely cannot do this until you are detached enough. it will mindf^^k you otherwise!!
double
yourself!!!
That was a great clarification BTW, zig.
I do also want to clarify that Brit is being referenced here as well, because both Zig and Brit were offered similar advice by different coaches.
It is my opinion that both Zig and Brit were "deemed" candidates for this type of "do something different" approach. I suspect because of their detachment.
Kinda like, "For use only under doctor's prescription and supervision".
I certainly hope that I did not come across as suggesting that this approach was for just anyone. Not my intention. And I think the conversation may have lead into a direction that really got away from what Zig was doing based on a conversation with a coach and then her simple post of suggesting that she should pat her H on the rump as we left the door to be with OW.
I definitely am supporting zig (and brit) based on what their coaches have suggested, in combination with what they say they want... their... "adjustment"...
about time you indicated that - I had no idea!!
doh...
Well, consider you have now received the memo...
i'm so exhausted from last nights' eruption that the only thing i could do today was vacuum (mindless) and lay on a raft in the pool in my sexy swimsuit (mindless) !!!
wouldn't it be great if MWD or one of the DB coaches would pop in on this thread and give some thoughts on the discussion?? does that ever happen?
wouldn't it be great if MWD or one of the DB coaches would pop in on this thread and give some thoughts on the discussion?? does that ever happen?
During this type of discussion or when something gets flagged, without a doubt it gets back to the mother ship. Often, at best there may be a reference posted by one of the mods which may suggest that the only DB experts are MWD and the coaches.
Not sure if this discussion will rate for one of those posts...
you whistling' at me KD???
too bad there was just s and mil - no sexy guys in equivalent sexy suits...
maybe it's time to head to the public pool, ya know - except they are too too young there!!!
oh yes. i am getting cool and detached!! soon i'll be as cool as you!
Salute!! memo received.
oh btw
"It is my opinion that both Zig and Brit were "deemed" candidates for this type of "do something different" approach. I suspect because of their detachment."
thans for this - it gave me a boost of encouragement - sorely needed...
and this
And I think the conversation may have lead into a direction that really got away from what Zig was doing based on a conversation with a coach and then her simple post of suggesting that she should pat her H on the rump as we left the door to be with OW.
okay - i think we've come full circle - was waiting to see if anyone was going to even see that.
i think the above triggered off a great discussion that many have benefited from, at least that is what it seems like.
seems like i should make more provocative statements like that to see what comes up - sure stirs things up and brings everyone out.
hmm... what could my mischievous little mind come up with next?
also one thing i would like to point out here - what i did that night which led to me and h spending it together - happened just after a similar thing i did. it's back in my thread but i'll write it again here. he was going on and on about how 'you need all the help and support i can give you through the d and i promise i'll do that for you" crap, and i interrupted him, rather fed up and said "h - come over here, give us a kiss and off with you" the same kind of flippant attitude that i expressed when i said "pat on the rump"
i was NOT expecting even the kiss - which i sort of stopped, patted him on the cheek and said ok off you go...
neither was i expecting the look of utter shock on his face when i said "you better be okay with this and not have any expectations" .
nor the determination with which he proceeded - it was not an immediate thing - it was over an hour later - he never backed out at any point even though i asked him three times if he was really okay to proceed.
when i told my coach about it (she had said to me that i should allow him to make mistakes with me) her response was - if that's not a big huge mistake, i don't know what is.
her point being that the more little and big mistakes he makes, the more uncomfortable he possibly becomes in his r with ow and the possibility that he starts really questioning what he is doing.
and the result?
h has adamantly said to me that he will not consider the possibility of the possibility of talking about r ever since the BD.
the day after , he said to me - i saw the possibility of us being together again.
albeit it freaked him out bad - but he saw it and funnily enough - i didn't.
oh, one more thing.
what IS the advice most get from their coaches - it seems as if the advice brit and i got is not the norm?
I personally have not had a coaching session. I do not know what the "norm" is. Although I suspect that's determined by what comes out during the initial consult.
thanks KD.
did you ever consider it - coaching sessions?
For sure I considered it. I couldn't really afford it as is the reason for many (actually, it was literal for me for the most part) and then when I could, I felt I had come along well enough to not warrant it.
I absolutely believe it is valuable for those who can and do get them.
as a warning to anyone reading this and thinking they want to try it - you absolutely cannot do this until you are detached enough. it will mindf^^k you otherwise!!
zig
Absolutely agree with this ^^^. It's indeed a rare bird that I've seen who can pull this off.
Starsky
wouldn't it be great if MWD or one of the DB coaches would pop in on this thread and give some thoughts on the discussion?? does that ever happen?
During this type of discussion or when something gets flagged, without a doubt it gets back to the mother ship. Often, at best there may be a reference posted by one of the mods which may suggest that the only DB experts are MWD and the coaches.
Not sure if this discussion will rate for one of those posts...
Correct. The rest of us are just ignorant rubes -- morons, really. You really shouldn't take anything we say with anything other than a huge mine o' salt.
i think the above triggered off a great discussion that many have benefited from, at least that is what it seems like.
seems like i should make more provocative statements like that to see what comes up - sure stirs things up and brings everyone out.
hmm... what could my mischievous little mind come up with next?
Oh, I think the "floating on a raft in a sexy swimsuit" did quite nicely, zig.
Starsky
he didn't have an affair BTW, I left him, we both dated other people, then I had change of heart and wanted to work on the marriage. But he is now living with someone else.
I'm confused, Brit, as your first post on this forum and even your signature indicate differently. I'll have to go back and read your early posts I guess.
Starsky
oh, one more thing.
what IS the advice most get from their coaches - it seems as if the advice brit and i got is not the norm?
I actually got the same advice as you and Brit from Cheryl.
oh, one more thing.
what IS the advice most get from their coaches - it seems as if the advice brit and i got is not the norm?
I actually got the same advice as you and Brit from Cheryl.
And your husband was still known to be in an active affair??
Sorry, I'm not familiar with your sitch, RoRo.
now now!!
a second whistle??
what came to mind - i think i'm practicing my new found skills virtually!!!! (GRIN!!)
time to take them into the real world!!!
my s's teacher AND the assistant teacher are practically gawking at me!! they are so delighted to see me every afternoon when i go in to pick s up - they actually come over and sort of keep me there, going on about this and that. i'm thoroughly enjoying it - for the first time in my life!! the old me would have got really uneasy and rushed out of there.
i don't flirt but i am warm and friendly, just as i am to everyone else!!
old zig - warm and friendly were NOT words that came to mind, EVER!!
my point being - that when one comes to love oneself - really love oneself - the whole world comes out to love you back. then the "little" things don't matter all that much any longer.
oh sigh - wish i'd known that a long long time ago - would have saved me a lot of grief.(not to mention for the people around me)
i don't know if i am indeed a rare bird or not, starsky, but the image of one of Attenboroughs' "Birds of Paradise" came to mind.
my favorite is that black one - when he dances, that big crazy vibrant blue comes out on his chest. i'm that big vibrant blue now.
of course when i'm not dancing, i'm back in the black - but i'm dancing more and more........and more, everyday
cheers
zig
oh, one more thing.
what IS the advice most get from their coaches - it seems as if the advice brit and i got is not the norm?
I actually got the same advice as you and Brit from Cheryl.
And your husband was still known to be in an active affair??
Sorry, I'm not familiar with your sitch, RoRo.
Yes.
hey RoRO - how are you this fine morning?
well i hope?
zig
oh, one more thing.
what IS the advice most get from their coaches - it seems as if the advice brit and i got is not the norm?
I actually got the same advice as you and Brit from Cheryl.
And your husband was still known to be in an active affair??
Sorry, I'm not familiar with your sitch, RoRo.
Yes.
Wow. I'm stunned that this is the advice from the coaches.
now now!!
a second whistle??
what came to mind - i think i'm practicing my new found skills virtually!!!! (GRIN!!)
time to take them into the real world!!!
my s's teacher AND the assistant teacher are practically gawking at me!! they are so delighted to see me every afternoon when i go in to pick s up - they actually come over and sort of keep me there, going on about this and that. i'm thoroughly enjoying it - for the first time in my life!! the old me would have got really uneasy and rushed out of there.
i don't flirt but i am warm and friendly, just as i am to everyone else!!
You got your "mojo" working, Zig. That's good!!!
There used to be a poster around here by the name of SmileysPerson (or SmileyPerson -- not sure of the spelling). He was an INCREDIBLE writer, and just a really interesting guy, and he wrote a lot about the whole "mojo" thing. I have yet to see someone successfully DB
without getting their mojo back!
Starsky
hey RoRO - how are you this fine morning?
well i hope?
zig
I'm good! Had a decent weekend. I will have to update my thread some time later.
Thanks for allowing us to use your thread for this discussion (and others). LOL
i agree with you starsky
I have yet to see someone successfully DB without getting their mojo back!^^^^ HAS to happen, either way.
in my case i didn't have ANY mojo - at all!! so this is my first real experience of feeling it.
gosh was i missing out!!
i'm going to check out if i can find smiley's thread - or do you have a link for lazy ole me?
thanks
zig
Wow. I'm stunned that this is the advice from the coaches.
I was too in the beginning. I will admit I wasn't to thrilled to try it. But I will say, it has made me feel more like my old self, and my situtation has changed some because of it I think. Do I think this alone will lead to a R? Of course not, but it helped me out of my own funk...and boy did I need that!
I think people have to try what works. And not just what might work to save their marriage. As we all know, it's really about what works to save yourself. This won't work for everyone, but for some it will put them on that path.
My stbx is not in a known or open A (probable EA) and my coach suggested "using him for my own pleasure" and telling him it was no big deal, and to be more playful in interactions. (this was before he filed for D). So, another tick for that line of advice here.
I actually got the same advice as you and Brit from Cheryl.
And your husband was still known to be in an active affair??
Sorry, I'm not familiar with your sitch, RoRo.
Yes.
Wow. I'm stunned that this is the advice from the coaches.
I hope to God they are including in this advice to USE PROTECTION??!
I hope to God they are including in this advice to USE PROTECTION??!
Well Starsky, as we are all adults here, I would hope no one would have to remind us of that.
I hope to God they are including in this advice to USE PROTECTION??!
And just for the record, the coaches (at least mine) did not explicitly say have s#x with your husband first. She told me to become his girlfriend again. Be flirty, be seductive, etc. Because that's who he fell in love with, and that's what he saw in OW.
For me also, I decided not to look outside my M. Because believe me, as soon as I told one of my friends what was going on with H and I, he was all for helping me out. LOL But I did not want to do that. And technically, he is still my H, so if I want to sleep with him, then I can. JMO I never once believed it would put us closer to a R.
Right, be the gf. It was more of an attitude change than a directive to get physical. I ultimately decided that tactic was not for me so I didn't go down that road.
I hope to God they are including in this advice to USE PROTECTION??!
And just for the record, the coaches (at least mine) did not explicitly say have s#x with your husband first. She told me to become his girlfriend again. Be flirty, be seductive, etc. Because that's who he fell in love with, and that's what he saw in OW.
For me also, I decided not to look outside my M. Because believe me, as soon as I told one of my friends what was going on with H and I, he was all for helping me out. LOL But I did not want to do that. And technically, he is still my H, so if I want to sleep with him, then I can. JMO I never once believed it would put us closer to a R.
I absolutely INSISTED we use a condom. i didn't have any here at my house. he did at his rental - our condoms from the past, which i knew were there.
he tried several times to say that we didn't need them. i stopped each time and insisted that that was the condition - so since he had come on his racing bike - i perched on the back and at 2 in the morning he biked us down almost 15 blocks to his place. believe me, it was not easy for him - that bike ride - that's what i meant when i said i was surprised by his determination!!
it seemed as if the fact that i was more concerned about protection rather than if we would sleep together -gave him some sort of incentive....?
i don't know - but it sure seemed like that .... ...pursuer/distancer????
who knows....
hi vera, did your coach change her approach/suggestions after H filed for the D? just wondering if they use that advice for a particular timeframe in the process?..
thanks.
he tried several times to say that we didn't need them. i stopped each time and insisted that that was the condition - so since he had come on his racing bike - i perched on the back and at 2 in the morning he biked us down almost 15 blocks to his place. believe me, it was not easy for him - that bike ride - that's what i meant when i said i was surprised by his determination!!
Ohhhhh zig I have to giggle, that sounds like something a couple of teenagers would do
Not to hijack - yes NG I have distanced and cooled off more since he filed and I was served. that confused him bc he couldn't figure out WHY I was doing it.
I hope to God they are including in this advice to USE PROTECTION??!
Well Starsky, as we are all adults here, I would hope no one would have to remind us of that.
I would hope so too, but considering the reeling emotional state of some of us when our spouses dropped the bomb on us, and coupled with how serious the health implications could be, I think it bears reminding.
Starsky
I hope to God they are including in this advice to USE PROTECTION??!
And just for the record, the coaches (at least mine) did not explicitly say have s#x with your husband first. She told me to become his girlfriend again. Be flirty, be seductive, etc. Because that's who he fell in love with, and that's what he saw in OW.
Interesting.
I'm all in favor of that,
once they end all contact with their affair partner. I guess we all have to make that decision for ouselves.
Starsky
Interesting.
I'm all in favor of that, once they end all contact with their affair partner. I guess we all have to make that decision for ouselves.
Starsky
Yes, Starsky, we know. You've made your opinion on that very clear. LOL
Ohhhhh zig I have to giggle, that sounds like something a couple of teenagers would do
or two people who just met and couldn't keep their hands off each other...giggle.
h and i always had that ... and obviously still do - one day maybe he'll wake up tot hat little fact!!
i giggled too, on the back of that bike - believe me it was NOT comfortable sticking my legs out in the air to avoid the wheels!! in fact when we got there, my hip joints were almost in spasm and as i got off, i was like - oh [censored] i wonder if i can do anything right now, Laugh!!
h and i were always great at silly goofy stuff like that in the beginning.
sadly i lost that after the baby and got way to serious and proper. i'm glad to see that part of me is back again and even more happy-go-lucky than ever before
that confused him bc he couldn't figure out WHY I was doing it.
doh! what is UP with their brains? ^^^seriously indicates lack of brain function - in 'the actions result in consequences' department.
in my case i didn't have ANY mojo - at all!! so this is my first real experience of feeling it.
I'm sure it was there, you just weren't tuned into it!
It's funny because I just saw someone I haven't seen for a long time. She said, "I thought it was you. I could tell by your walk."
That's the second time in about a month that someone said that to me...
Obviously... I've got a swagger...
serious[ ] lack of brain function - in 'the actions result in consequences' department.
if I could get this on a shirt in the style of the "i'm with stupid" shirts along with my WWBD shirt that would be great
a swaggering belly dancer?
in costume...
maybe that image can go on vera's t-shirt with the text she just asked for
man, i want one of those
NOW!!
(just thought of some new lyrics - sung to my h:
If i can't have you,
I want one of those t-shirts
If I can't have you
ah ha ha..
remember that old song?- oh yeah Night Fever by the BeeGees
I LOOOOOve the BeeGees - now talk about swagger......
hey btw - is anybody going to say happy anniversary to me today?
I'm celebrating on my own - focusing on how i never regretted that day, and all the good times we had. Haven't even shed a tear yet (smile). actually, funnily enough, this year, i am appreciating it the most...
vera - meant to ask. what's WWBD?
all i could come up with was 'world wide bomb drop' but i don't think that's what it is ....
at the cost of sounding completely up my own a$$ which let's admit I am...thanks to all the swagger...it stands for What Would Brit Do?
Happy Anniversary Zig. Congrats for getting through the past year in one piece...a better piece. It might have been only a year but you've had a metamorphosis that would have taken most many many more years. So we'll toast at the picnic to all your accomplishments....to not wearing black and grey, to getting in touch with your mojo, finding the turtles and for falling in love with you!
. . . and for falling in love with you!
Hey, careful -- you'll go blind that way.
Starsky
Starsky!!!! don't make me pull out the sleaze radar like I did with KD LOL!!!!
I swear everything I say gets taken in a slightly naughty way these days! not just here but in real life. Maybe my swagger is too much! haha
at the cost of sounding completely up my own a$$ which let's admit I am
well - whatever's up there - it seems to be a good view, because there's some mighty fine sounding sh$t coming from there.
okay okay - that was totally outrageous, but i couldn't resist.
i might need your sleaze radar too.
i'm such a ditz head WWBD - of course that's YOU!!how come i didn't remember? because no one sent me the t-shirt!!
Happy Anniversary Zig. Congrats for getting through the past year in one piece...a better piece. It might have been only a year but you've had a metamorphosis that would have taken most many many more years. So we'll toast at the picnic to all your accomplishments....to not wearing black and grey, to getting in touch with your mojo, finding the turtles and for falling in love with you!
[censored], brit! Now I do have tears in my eyes - you weren't supposed to make me cry!! hey but they are happy happy tears
your words touch me deep, dear girl.
and once again - so articulate...
((((((((( )))))))))
zig
swagger on -brit
I am sashaying............la la la
well - whatever's up there - it seems to be a good view, because there's some mighty fine sounding sh$t coming from there.
okay okay - that was totally outrageous, but i couldn't resist.
LMAO!!!!
Oh gosh I love how the mood has turned around on this thread in 24/48 hours.
PS Cainer is dropping some good advice for us tomorrow:
To be a Sag is to be a person of great passion and enthusiasm. Whatever you do you do wholeheartedly. Fine, if you are giving your all to an activity you enjoy. Not so fine, if you are giving your all to misery, pessimism or despair. If you must allow yourself to experience these moods at all, you should really try to limit the extent of your emotional investment. Lately you you have allowed yourself to feel far too much FEAR. This has eaten up your capacity to relish other, more positive (and actually more justified), feelings.
And of course we can find out so much if we pay for his indepth forecast LMAO.
[quote=Brit45]Starsky!!!! don't make me pull out the sleaze radar like I did with KD LOL!!!!
I swear everything I say gets taken in a slightly naughty way these days! not just here but in real life. Maybe my swagger is too much! haha [/quote
It's the mojo, Brit. Gotta be the mojo.
Hey, I pay for the monthly in depth service from Cainer. For ten bucks, you get multiple in depth audio and video weekly messages that you can replay over and over again. Totally worth it, IMO.
Oh gosh I love how the mood has turned around on this thread in 24/48 hours.
yeah - me too!!!! that's my new goal for the week - turn everything around and make it shine baby!!
PS Cainer is dropping some good advice for us tomorrow:hot damn you beat me to it! i was going to post it on your thread but had to go pick up s first.
bummer! s lost me my chance for a little flirt! he marched right up as i stepped in and walked out the door. my admirers were at the far end - calling - hey how are you with beams on their faces and all i could do was wave and say hi see you later. it would have been way too obvious if i had walked up to them (grin)
i SWEAR those guys wait for 4.15 till i walk in
- that's what it feels like
i treated myself to listening to Pema as i drove to do good deeds earlier today.
good reminder - stop itching when it comes up. sort of like caners horoscope, right
so every time i've just about started to get maudlin, i say stop itching' baby, you'll get scars and then you won't be so sexy!!!
it's working!
and on that wave - i'm taking s and me out to dinner at our favorite restaurant (and h's too) to celebrate!! he doesn't know, but i do!! maybe h ain't here to to it with us, but that ain't stopping' me!!
yum yum - gourmet burgers
you do? i thought it was like $50. i swear that guy is living in my house!!! or in my skin. sometimes i'll go listen to the trial 20 secs and i actually feel my skin crawl - it's so uncanny!!
yes it is the mojo - and it's working'!!
hey starsky - i'm still lazy - any hints on which forum that smiley thread is on?
hope you're having a great day!!
zig
yes it is the mojo - and it's working'!!
hey starsky - i'm still lazy - any hints on which forum that smiley thread is on?
hope you're having a great day!!
zig
Last I saw him, Zig, he was hanging out on the "Surviving the Big D" forum. Maybe sg can get you a link to his old posts, as they don't archive but a few recent pages there nowadays.
No, Cainer is like 9.50 a month US. He is uncanny and the weakly audios are like 5 minutes long and you can download them and play them over and over. In addition to the weekly audios/videos, you get monthly, new moon to new moon, solstice to solstice, yearly love, yearly money, etc. plus free iChing and tarot readings, Totally worth it, better than going to a movie.
your secrets coming out the woodwork, unbidden.
nice - i'm tempted - but will see if i can do a i month first. not sure i can afford it right now.
thanks
zig
How did this thread go from turtles to girls gone wild?
well
don't you know the real deal about turtles?
you have to go hang out with them to find out....
i don't know , bustorama - but it's sure nice to have you visit
welcome to the picnic - maybe you can share some wild stories while you're here!
or did you come to partner up with KD - BD'ing, maybe?
that's the opposite of DB'ing you know --- Belly Dancing!!
oh shite - i am obviously cracking the most pathetic jokes to get through today!!!!
oh just come have a laugh - that's all we have right now!!!
zig, i am filled with admiration for your today...to joke around and make the best of today..and all i can say, from a lesbian point of view, is that your H is crazy.. perhaps temporary insanity, i guess. you are amazing.... you definitely found your mojo..
thanks needgrace - for the "pump up"
i DID do well today, i am quietly pleased.
i worked with my intern until 4 then went to get s. when we got back, my knitting software upgrade had arrived and we both jumped into installing it and exclaiming and being delighted with the new changes. so much better than before.
then we went out to dinner - 2 big new things for me.
i hadn't realized that s and i had never really been out to dinner on our own before. lunches yes - but never dinner. i joked that it could be our date night and then as we walked out the door i said s let's make this a regular thing - once a month just you and i go to dinner on our own. he seemed very pleased at the idea.
then when we got there, he wanted to sit at the bar - and we noticed the synchro diving trials were on.
i've always disapproved of tv's in restaurants and sports even more - but there i was sitting at the bar with my 11 yr old watching the trials and thoroughly enjoying myself
and it only occurred to me right now, that i don't believe i thought of h even once the whole time!
wow - even i'm impressed.
so dinner date with my s and watching sports too - when mil called later she was absolutely astonished. oh and funny thing - s wanted to go to the same restaurant where that incident happened last week with h showing up when i went out with my friend
so all in all i would agree it was a successful day!!
how has your day been? good i hope?
(((( ))))
zig
ps- why lesbian point of view - is that a different one??
journaling:
i've been waiting for a chance today to sit down and right a bit more.
yesterday s and i went over to mil's and spent the afternoon there. this is h's 5th trip down to ow's and it's an odd coincidence but each time, fil has been out of town and we have spent the day with mil and her mother and father (they live in the same house)
i was nervous about going there in the morning - it's been awhile, and i was a bit wary that i may get all emotional, like i used to. i will admit, in hindsight, that i think i started db'ing with them since march and letting go of them also.
it was the complete opposite of before, the 3 of us were in the pool all afternoon, really relaxed and then just before dinner h's grandma came out to tell us she had hurt her shoulder. she's 93 and has been getting injured a lot recently.
so suddenly there i was, popped into my "traditional" role in the family - being florence nightingale - nurse florrie for short - which i am really really good at! after all this time - i took care of her, massaged her shoulder, announced that we didn't need to rush to the er and went and got a better ice pack from the pharmacy.
mil was really stressed out as everyone except me is out of town and she couldn't miss work today. it was so nice to go over during the day today and take care of them for a bit - i used to do that almost on a daily basis before BD and almost until march .i just adore those 2 old people and have missed them so much.
she always introduces me as her daughter and i always laugh and say no i'm her grand daughter in law, but she insists otherwise!!
i knew she was really pleased to have me around - and i decided that i was going to continue to drop in and check on them, when i'm sure h isn't around.
i told mil that i got so much pleasure from being with them again - and for myself i was so happy that now it isn't edged with the constant bittersweet reminder of what has happened. i'm free to just enjoy them on my own...and that please me a lot.
when we got home tonight, i made sure s called fil - he's racing at that bike race in iowa and i knew he would be delighted if s asked how the race was going. they talked for an hour
h called while s was on the phone - and so i got to talk to him. as soon as he heard that s was talking to his dad he went into a mild tirade about what an idiot his dad was - he told him not to go do that, it's ridiculous to be biking in this heat and why don't they stop right now instead of going on.i laughed very mildly and said well you can't stop someone once they've decided to do something - they're not going to listen to anyone saying don't do that. his reply - it's not a lugging matter - they are going to get hurt. soon after i said well i'll get s to call when he gets off with your dad and let him go.
damn right it's not a laughing matter...
it's odd how so many of our conversations in the last couple of months have gone like that -direct analogies of our sitch. and him criticizing something like this in the same way. very strange...
good question..
i'm just saying that i am experienced at measuring female mojo..
and you got it and then some!
Ha Ha ha
thanks ng - i'm grinning cheesily!!
i like the "and then some" part especially!
how's your mojo these days
glad i made you smile, zig.
i need to find my mojo....it is currently MIA..
i was at an antique swap meet last week with a friend.
a woman asked me a question about an item she was looking at,
so i answered and then walked away to the next booth.
my friend comes running after me and asked me why i left so quick, that the woman was hot..
i looked back and my friend was very right, and i laughed bc i did not even notice.
i am learning though by listening to you and brit!
it's like KD said yesterday - it's there - your mojo - you're just not tuned into it yet.
you're tuned into the sitch - so time to tune out of the sitch and then you'll feel it.
best part? - you just have to tune out a little bit and you'll feel the first of it and then hey - it will take you all on it's own - it's so enticing you won't be able to resist it.
you'll still feel the sitch, but from a little further away and then soon, you'll be able to just bring that mojo up and let it prop you along when you don't feel that good.
you just stay on that blanket with us ng- it's right there - and soon every hot chick will be asking you stupid questions to get your attention (grin!!)
Good Morning darling girl! I just caught up and I'm so glad you had a great time at dinner with S. When I first started doing things just me and S, it felt really uneasy like I was trying to put on a happy face and I realised the other day how much fun I now have with him. I hate to say that we didn't have this when I was family had 3 members but it's true...one on one time is so important with them.
(you mentioned diving and in my head I started to recite divers and info...dear lord get me through the next few weeks)
Don't worry Grace we're in the same place. This past weekend my friend pointed out that a guy at another table had been looking over at us so much his GF had started holding his hand and literally pulling him back into the convo. I hadn't noticed at all....we'll get there!
it's odd how so many of our conversations in the last couple of months have gone like that -direct analogies of our sitch. and him criticizing something like this in the same way. very strange...
Hey Zig, very true statement. I've noticed that with my W as well. She's known for her mini-lectures to the kids which can be sparked by almost anything. Its kind of a family joke with us. Typically is a learning opportunity that my W will snatch onto and talk to the kids. Anyway...last night was another example of a mini-lecture to my son (who at 13, almost 14 isn't too found of). It was interesting to me to hear her words and know how they did not match her actions in regard to our M.
So here's the perspective challenge...In situations like this is it better to get frustrated because they don't apply the lessons to themselves or be thankful that the logic is still there in their heads and there may still be hope that the light turns on for them if the fuel is still present?
Glad you enjoyed your time with the in-laws!
I think it's a good sign that the logic is still in their heads. And isn't there a saying that we often criticize more harshly about things we dislike about ourselves? So then, maybe when they are lecturing, even though it's directed at someone else, they are internally and silently dealing with it themselves.
Zig,
Just trying to keep up with suddenly what has become a VERY busy thread, lol -- but do your MIL and FIL know about your husband's infidelity?
Glad to see your MOJO's workin'!!!
Starsky
Zig,
It's good to see how well you are doing. You are truly a very strong and positive person and you are now radiating it to everyone around you.
Kudos to you also for keeping your sitch with H separate from your in-laws. I understand where you are coming from. I have also had an amazing relationship with all of my Hs family and both them and I have decided that regardless of what happens with H, we are and will always be family and will continue treating each other as such. (Although H is not too happy about this, lol...)
I also feel it's a great example for my kids and family is everything to me, so I want them to grow up with a close R with extended family.
I'll keep checking on you to get inspired and remain positive myself!
I can't believe they haven't locked your thread.
Your mojo has magical powers! LOL
I hope you've been having a great day!
LRT...
Is the LBS 100% committed to walking away? 100% cause you can only play that card once. In fact with LRT...the LBS is almost not wanting the WAS to come back.
That is how committed the LBS should be to LRT; because anything less, ANYTHING? and I agree with Kaffe the LBS will regret, and I could care less about the WAS's regrets.
Anything less than 100% walk away? and the LBS will look back and say, "I was just joking...I wasn't serious. I didn't mean it..." And nothing changes. Then the LBS is stuck in limbo and proven to others that they will not leave.
My take on the LRT.
It is either real, or it is a worthless trick.
I think the clue to knowing if it is real? Is when you stop truely caring if the WAS comes back.
crud...responding to I guess...the 1st page? : )
nm, me please.
ah, OK... I get the context, now...
Totally agree with LRT. In or out. That's the LBS ultimatum. Until the LBS is ready to go and is really... READY...
In this game, there's no trump card.
yes - that freaked me for a minute too, when i read your first post j3b - then i saw your second.
i went back to read that first page - and almost had to laugh.
we are so freaked out by th behaviors our WAS's display - being erratic, spewing, being nice.
but sheesh - what about us - we have quite our own roller coaster ride. i can barely remember writing that, i'm embarrassed to admit.
but thank you j3b for that reminder. sometimes i think i'm almost there - and then realize of course that i am not.
also thanks for stopping by.
btw - i seem to have 'lost" my bootcamp mentor, it seems - anyone want to chip in to help - i think sg is very busy and i could use a bit of help setting some new goals
thanks
zig
divers!! hey girl - you get to see a LOT of men in extremely skimpy swimsuits. they are not mess in' around!! so you don't get to complain. of course they are rather young - most of them...... even s noticed - he said - wow those are like bikinis without the tops. i just about fell off the bar stool!!
i felt uneasy too - i was thinking to myself - gosh what am i going to talk to him about!! but then i just relaxed and it was fine. he is such a charmer.
maybe like his mom...hee hee
It was interesting to me to hear her words and know how they did not match her actions in regard to our M. groan - oh i know - i've focused on that way too much these last years and especially since BD.
but you know what the funny thing is ces? now when i stop looking at h's "faults" and start looking to myself - i can't say that i'm totally innocent of that either...
your challenge question - i never saw it in terms of that - i think people just rationalize to themselves - i know i do when it suits me if i am completey honest. so i expect they do the same. i honestly didn't see a connection between the light and the fuel...
thanks for stopping in - it's nice to have you here
zig
i sure hope what you say is true vera - that would be nice - to know that one day there will be much much more self-awareness....
hi starsky - funny you said that - i've always felt that my thread has been busy, but maybe you are right it's busier now.
yes mil and fil know - right from the beginning. mil and i are and have been really really close and she has been one of my staunchest supports for years and especially after BD. i don't think h will ever find out what she and i have been through in the last 11 months together
funny you asked that today. recently i have felt that everyone in our lives have given up hope including them and have felt quite the lonely warrior here on my own. but tonight - she told me that she has not given up hope at all and prays for us constantly.
well - she prayed for me for 5 years and her prayers came through - she has powerful prayers for sure, if that happened (grin)
i turned my mojo off for the day today - to deal with some really heavy stuff that came up for me, but i see now that it's turned itself on again and i'm getting back in the groove
hope you're well
zig
thanks going
i agree with you and happy to hear that you are doing the same with your in-laws. my h too is not very comfortable with it, at least i don't think - but still insists on us doing things together w/ the family.
thanks for the lovely things you say - i don't know if i am really doing that - but if that's the effect, i'm delighted.
hope you are well
zig
I think it does Brit - it carried me through a wreck of a day today.
that's why i stayed off the boards - just needed to get through all this crap that came up from some nether underworld inside myself
triggered by star sky no less!!!
but i'm in a good place now - am finding out more and more that as i let go and turn my focus towards myself, it allows this stuff to come up and out. at first i would balk at having to deal with it, but now i find that i am not spinning off.
i actually thought to myself today for the first time - i think i'm actually staying still, staying completely in the moment - just where i am with all of what is going on and not trying to be somewhere else - like in the past or the future, the why or the what, the who or the where...
i think i actually lived my tag line today for the first time.
so even though a lot of pain and anguish, there was a lot of peace in realizing that yes this is where i'm at and later i simply won't be in this same place again.
right now, h feels very far away in my mind in some ways .... which is at it should be....
in my mediation tape it says at one point: You are right where you should be
yes i am
right where I should be....
hey zig,
whenever i get through something big, i have a bit of a letdown after..wonder if that was true for you after yesterday? i have found it a good time to regroup, remind myself of my growth and that this is not a quick journey, read pema or jack kornfield and plan something to take care of myself..
actually i wish pema could come live with me.. listening to her in my car makes me feel so calm.. i just feel like i can slow down and handle anything, moment by moment... love that feeling.
((((zig)))) i am so glad this journey has given me you... you help me think wiser
Glad you are back in a good place, z.
Ng, any starter Pema recommendations?
and you make my heart swell with emotion - i've just been reading some of your posts to the others on the board. ng - you are so full of compassion and empathy - and you say the most beautiful things to make people feel better. I feel better reading what you wrote to them
hot damn - we are all so f'ing loverly!! our WAS's are bloody insane!!
we are definitely now persons who only a fool would leave.
if pema's coming to live with you, i'm coming too - you can't have her all to yourself , you know!! i agree though - pema's in my car too -she's been there for months, s listens sometimes and i think her soothing voice calms him down also
i didn't have a letdown after yesterday - i assume you're referring to the anniversary? it was strange - at some level i spent the day really facing the brutal reality of my sitch in a very calm way and also accepting on a much much deeper level that my marriage was over. i hadn't reached that depth before.
when i woke up this morning i thought i felt really fine, but then began to notice that i was a bit edgy. at first i wondered if it was about yesterday, but realized it really wasn't and then i was like, oh [censored] here we go again - next wave of inner crap about to emerge (grin).
i still didn't get what it was about. i sat down to reply to starsky who had asked me a few days ago what happened during the five years. i never did post that - i wrote so much and then suddenly stopped and all this new insight and realizations and anguish came up and i just had to let it flow through me and out.
pema says everything comes into your sacred circle to teach you something. when starsky started that conversation, that's what came to my mind and i had to wait until now to get ti. i'm not sure what the teaching is yet- it has to do with letting go of resentments. i learned for myself today that something i had really resented h deeply for - i saw in a completely new light and it helped me to let it go.
i also resolved another layer of the hurt and anguish from the sexual abuse - that was huge. months ago in march i thought i had dealt with most of it, but as i remove the layers one by one, it seems as if there is another waiting. but soon, i feel i will have got through to the deepest part of it and be able to fully let it go.
the anguish - is strange - it's not the anguish of it having happened - it's the anguish of realizing how my psyche took it on, what interpretations of life and beliefs it caused me to form and how impeding those were to myself and to all the people that have loved and known me all my life.
i have begun to see a pattern here -each time i let go that tiny bit more of h, there is a little space created, i think, which allows me to deal with some part of myself. and each time i deal with a little part, i get that tiny extra fragment of peace to go with it, and remove a tiny fragment of fear. so it's like rebuilding the jigsaw puzzle that is oneself - each piece you remove, you replace with a new one until when it is all done, there is a completely different self in place.
that was probably a lot more answer than you were expecting - obviously my talking mojo is back in action once again. whew - the last couple of days was afraid i was getting downright reticent
(((((((ng))))))) okay pass me a shot will you - i need a break from all this emotional crap
thanks vera - i noticed we were cross-posting!
about pema - everything , all of it
i was lucky - a week after BD, a friend gave me Pema's first book and then i spent my x'mas money on her cd's
go to her website , but amazon may have them on sale...
I think it does Brit - it carried me through a wreck of a day today.
that's why i stayed off the boards - just needed to get through all this crap that came up from some nether underworld inside myself
triggered by star sky no less!!!
Oh dear -- what did I trigger? I'm sorry if I caused you any undue pain yesterday, Zig???
Starsky
oh no, no, not at all starsky - to the contrary.
it was your question of what happened those 5 yrs. i actually sat down to write about it to you - and that post was seriously long. and then suddenly it triggered off a lot of insight and stuff just started coming up that i hadn't been able to deal with before - and i could see it all in a different light.
so i meant triggered by your question. if i hadn't sat down to write i wouldn't have been able to get to the core of one of the troublesome things that was really holding me back in terms of resentment toward h.
i don't know yet how to write about those 5 yrs yet. the "old"version is somewhere back in my threads, and maybe should just stay there.
in short, i had a car accident from which i didn't heal as expected, and things got really bad, and h seemed to stand by me during that time. the strain on them was huge - massive, and that's why i think that it triggered off h's crisis. i also had a second accident during the 4th yr which didn't help. suffice it to say - none of us should have had to endure what we did, but we did. now i try to see this time as one of healing for all of us. I want my boys and me to heal completely - and i know that i can lead in that, because that's where i am right now.
i am sure that my healing, can somehow heal theirs... at least in this area.
and for me that's a huge motivation to heal!!
so keep those "innocent" questions coming. they are very useful in ways we can't imagine!!!
hope you have a great day
zig
OK, well glad I could help then, LOL.
Did your husband communicate any legitimate marital complaints to you during those 5 years, and you didn't listen? Or did he bring this up recently, as justification/rationale for his affair? Or neither (you're just pointing out how he stood by you, and now you want to stand by him) ???
Starsky
Hey Zig, glad you are working through the challenges of the past with a new perspective. It can't be easy but you appear to be going at it in a way that will continue your healing. That takes guts & character! Modeling that for your family is a blessing. Of course they will have to make their own decisions and their own journey of healing but it certainly is a tremendous help when there is someone who can light the way!
It is a new day!
and to make sure I understood that s played "don't stop me now" by Queen, and right after that "here comes the sun"
Excellent song selection! (especially "here comes the sun" - always puts a smile on my face)
hey starsky
you need me to hack through all this again?
no - he was the silent one - would NOT admit to feeling anything.
let's put it this way - his stock answer was "you're the one that's f'ed up, not me i'm fine" - before and after the accident. and his other stock answer - "I don't know"
at and after BD - he would only refer to the first 5 yrs as the source of our problems - and anything i brought up after the accident - he adamantly insisted that it was only the first 5 yrs - he was in total denial about his own role as well as acknowledging in any way that he didn't want to continue to live with me the way i was - that it was too much for him
his list of grievances was so long, it took over 2 months for them all to come out. and we talked for hours a day. he was riddled with guilt for leaving me when i was down. and now,when i'm not - well he's using that to justify that see, you got better after i left.
those thing really bothered me - now i'm letting them go and seeing it for what it was - just another human being struggling with their own stuff, as i struggle with mine. except mine is not such a struggle anymore. i relish the emotional releases when they come because now i know that they are part of my healing
Of course they will have to make their own decisions and their own journey of healing but it certainly is a tremendous help when there is someone who can light the way!
thanks ces - yes , in this area - i really feel that my own healing can help a lot towards healing what they went through. i like the way you put it - light the way.
i want to be the lighthouse at the edge of a large large lake where my s and h are floating - a little lost, but they know i'm here. s's boat is a little closer, i think and that makes all this worth it.
i think the sun is coming out - in ways i didn't imagine:)
so keep those "innocent" questions coming. they are very useful in ways we can't imagine!!!
hey starsky
you need me to hack through all this again?
you're confused??
i thought I was the one who was supposed to be confused
sorry , confused about what?
i guess when i said "hacking through all this" - it's coming from a place where i'm recognizing now that all that explaining and describing what happened is about the focusing on what he did wrong and justifying to myself on some level - see , i'm right.
the simple fact (brutal reality) is that he has left and keeps choosing to do what he's doing and it's time for me to let it all go, and get on with my own stuff.
all kinds of [censored] happened. otoh - i'm still continually owning my part and finding new perspectives on how to change my attitude towards what and how he did things. to drop all the resentments and guilt and blame
i don't even know if i'm on the right track in all this. whether i'm still in the old role of taking it all on myself and taking all the blame for it. i don't think i am - something has shifted in me in the last few days, and for the first time, i am finding myself agreeing with you on one thing you said - mlc or no mlc - this is what he has done, and is intentionally continuing to do. i can choose to be angry and "fight " to change his mind, or i can go somewhere else and let it go.
recently he told my closest friend how he was going through an mlc. i think he did it intentionally - he knows we are very close. i think he is starting to pass that "info" around so that people will excuse his behavior. "please don't think badly of me, i'm in crisis"
well, most people who are in crisis, don't know that they are. ones who acknowledge it openly and then STILL continue and don't take any steps to help themselves - i have to wrap my mind around that somehow and i'm not quite able to right now. that's when it's time to just simply step away i think. (hmm, that must be what detachment is, grin)
i still want to continue db'ing, but it's from a different place within me - one that is getting more and more ok with the alternative.
It is a new day!
and to make sure I understood that s played "don't stop me now" by Queen
Love this song!! Perfect for the DB attitude
you're confused??
i thought I was the one who was supposed to be confused
sorry , confused about what?
I thought you wanted me -- us -- to continue to ask you the tough questions, but then you seemed upset to be having to answer them.
It's just that I don't know your entire backstory, and since you were clearly using whatever it was that you had "put your husband thru" for "5-10 years" as part of your rationale about how patient you should be with him and his current infidelity, I was trying to better understand just what it was that you "did to him."
Starsky
What sort of example do you feel that you are setting for your child by allowing your H to continue an A right under your nose?
This is always the toughest part. ^^^
What sort of example do you feel that you are setting for your child by allowing your H to continue an A right under your nose?
This is always the toughest part. ^^^
This is the toughest part. I am struggling very much with the very same thing.
What sort of example do you feel that you are setting for your child by allowing your H to continue an A right under your nose?
This is always the toughest part. ^^^
Thank you. I posted that 3 days ago. It didn't come up till now. Thank you for noticing Starsky. I think it is a very valid and important point for people to see and think of.
What sort of example do you feel that you are setting for your child by allowing your H to continue an A right under your nose?
This is always the toughest part. ^^^
Starsky, zig is GALing & doing her own thing mostly (from what I read...maybe I missed something), so how is this under her nose? I don't think her H lives at home. (Again, unless I missed something)
We all know what your point of view is on all this. Lord knows you post it on enough threads. LOL And maybe I'm taking this wrong, but you "insinuating" that zig is a bad example for her child by letting her husband work through his own "mess" and going about her own life is just too much!
You have very good advice, but some of it often gets lost in what I call "forceful writing". You can give your opinion, but do you have to make people feel bad (or weak) if they don't follow it?
Just an observation. Sorry for the hijack, zig. I seem to keep doing that! I think the heat is getting to me. LOL
THANK YOU RORO!!!!
I actually read this about half an hour ago - i started to post 3 times and deleted each one, saying to myself, calm down, you don't have to jump to the bait.
First of all to clarify - I was not aware of this post until this evening. I must have missed it when shocked one - whoever he is, posted it. It's from page 7 out of 23 pages, for cripes sake.
Starsky - I don't know, what your point is to bring it up now, 16 odd pgs later, but the fact that you did gives a really strong message ESPECIALLY after my last posts where i have clearly indicated that i am struggling through a lot of internal stuff.
So instead of mind-reading, I am going to simply ask: what is your point in highlighting it and quoting it?
As for shocked one asking me that - who is he and where did he pop up from and has he read all my threads.
The question he asks - I am simply baffled. There are A LOT of assumptions there. I have had NO dialogue with this person, I have no idea if he's ever read my thread, and to pop a question like that, out of nowhere, and possibly out of context is nothing short of inciting and outrageous.
RoRo thank-you for jumping in, and you DO have your facts right. you are certainly NOT hijacking. Until now, my h has NOT lived in our home (i asked him to move out!), my s is not aware of ow as far as I know and ow lives 4 states away.
The example I am setting: the best one I am capable of - to take the high road. To show my family that even though it is a terribly painful thing for all of us, I can be strong, not fall apart, put a genuine smile on my face and help them through their tough times. That I am not using anger to justify my position in this sitch. That even when h is spewing at me, I can stay calm and dignified. That no matter which way it eventually goes, I can carry us through this, and when our s grows up, he can look back at this time and remember that his mom was strong and faced this well.
THAT is the sort of example I am setting.
So no, it is NOT a tough one for me by any means, to set that example. I don't have any issues whatsoever with myself about the way I have comported myself during this last 11 months. I may have been terribly emotional with my friends and on this bb, but in front of h and s I have only shown my strong side.
If anyone wants to ask questions such as these, it would be wonderful if they took the time to understand the persons' sitch in more detail before posting.
RoRo as for the heat - at first i thought you meant the heat on my thread haha. but yeah i know what you mean 108 deg. here today.
it's not the heat outside, it's the heat in here (grin)
are you a sag btw (grin?)
thanks, sweet girl
(( ))
zig
Actually, it took me a while to write my post too. LOL I wanted to make sure it made sense and not me just going off...which used to be my norm. LOL
Ummm...sag????
The example I am setting: the best one I am capable of - to take the high road. To show my family that even though it is a terribly painful thing for all of us, I can be strong, not fall apart, put a genuine smile on my face and help them through their tough times. That I am not using anger to justify my position in this sitch. That even when h is spewing at me, I can stay calm and dignified. That no matter which way it eventually goes, I can carry us through this, and when our s grows up, he can look back at this time and remember that his mom was strong and faced this well.
THAT is the sort of example I am setting.
I think that is a helll of an example Zig. I would be proud to have you as my mom.
Zig, it's clear to me that despite your "keep on challenging me" posts, you really only want cheerleaders on your thread. I'll spend my time elsewhere, and leave you to your picnic. I tried to jump in to challenge your thinking and offer a different perspective, and because frankly your mentor abandoned you and I felt sorry about that.
Ro, I'm not sure why you have such a strong reaction to a strong male voice, or why a simple bump of a 2x4 post would set you off do much, but I suspect it has more to do with you than it does with me.
I do wish you both well with your sitches.
Starsky
Starsky, what was with that?
Take everything out of the equation from other posters.
Zig indicated to you in her last post that her H is not living with her.
How is she "allowing" him to have an A under her nose and what is her DB recommended behaviour that you'd suggest?
Ro, I'm not sure why you have such a strong reaction to a strong male voice, or why a simple bump of a 2x4 post would set you off do much, but I suspect it has more to do with you than it does with me.
Starsky
Something told me that's what you would say, and I actually examined my feelings about before I posted to make sure that wasn't it.
My grandfather getting up before dawn every morning for 50+ years so he could feed his family was strong.
My mother raising 3 kids on her own was strong.
My grandmother tending to her mother with Alzheimer's by herself on a daily basis was strong.
You almost forcing your opinion on other posters is NOT strong. You CANNOT make people do ANYTHING, and because of that you resort to questioning the kind of person they are or how strong they are. And that, my friend, makes us suspect that has more to do with YOU than the rest of us. I know you saved your M, and that should be celebrated. But what you did won't work for everbody. And it makes you look like the last kid picked for kickball when you fire back on someone who didn't do what you wanted them to do.
Now, I think we've both done enough to derail zig's thread tonight, so I'll call game over and move on.
hi starsky, i love to read your posts, i learn a lot from them... but i must ask how exactly you think what zig is doing is a bad example? i am truly confused about that.. from what i see, she has worked hard at keeping S out of the situation w/ H... she had H leave the home...she has been friendly but detached.. she is trying to save her M to his F...
I may be a "cheerleader" of zig's, that is true, i adore her... but still i am trying to look at this as objectively as i can and with all due respect, i don't get it. i understand your perspective on boundaries and think you raise very good points on what is so so confusing about the differing advice offered by the coaches..and i know you have found what worked in your sitch and really want to help others help their Ms..
but i don't see how she is doing anything that sets a bad example for her S. and knowing zig, that is the LAST thing she would want to do..so Starsky if you would elaborate we can either agree to all disagree... or maybe some or all of us may change our thoughts.... and it seems a sad way to end what seemed to have begun as such a fruitful discussion.
So what I'm getting from this is it's OK for Starsky to challenge others, just not OK for others to challenge Starsky?
And I think we've covered this ground before, so like Ro, I'm out.
(note to Ro sag=sagittarius)
Starsky you didn't wait for my response from the last question you asked me. I was going to respond to that, but i am working through a lot of stuff right now and i think i had indicated that quite clearly, before i could formulate an answer for you.
but then instead you quoted shocked one's question - instead.
I am not looking for cheerleaders only. KD, labug, ces, brit and all the others- they challenge me all the time and really make me think about where i am really at.
and what you refer to as cheerleading - isn't that us just simply encouraging each other to stay within a state of PMA as much as we can?
You are right - the affair IS under my nose - and it hurts like hell, no matter how positive i try to stay. and maybe you're right too that my "mentor abandoned me and you feel sorry for me" as you put it, but hot damn starsky, you want to rub my nose in it too?
fine, if that's what you want to do - that's your thing.
there's a big difference between asking me about my sitch and implying that my morals/values or whatever are not up to the mark.
maybe the difference here is that the challenges I see I have to face are the ones within myself - how to become strong, after what I've been through, how to learn to forgive which I never knew how to do before, how to accept gracefully what life has given me right now which I could never do before, how to love even when one gets nothing back, how to give up control when fear always kept me holding on and how to accept that h is another whole individual who has the right to make his own mistakes, lead his own life,
the challenges you see I have to face is how to change the sitch.
So we are coming at it from two different places, right now. Our end goals are the same - you and I would both like to see my marriage reconciled.
The way I see it is that at the least, I have to heal totally before there is even a remote possibility of that, I am trying really hard to focus on that.You are not aware, but I have a long pretty sordid history of sexual abuse, beatings both at boarding school and at home by my grandmother, a lot of public shaming for things I was not responsible for. those are the things that shaped me, shaped my life and shaped my relationships. It is only now, at 46 that I am really really dealing with these issues and they are more than enough to face, let alone realizing how their long-term effects shaped the interactions I had with both my ex and h.
I simply cannot stand here and say, my h is a [censored], I'm calling him on it. yes I wish he was not doing this horrible thing, but he could say the same about me (from his point of what he went through, not mine) in the last 10 yrs.
I'm NOT pointing the finger, and I'm learning not to take all the blame, but I have to work through this at my pace. If you would like to support me in that, I would be honored, but if you feel (and i am not really sure what you think I should do exactly in terms of actions or attitude) that you can only be here if I agree to everything that you say, then we shall be at loggerheads, shan't we?
You have no idea what lengths I have gone to in terms of my behavior and acting as if with my s so he would be protected from this info. You are not the one who has had to sit in front of the computer while h and s skyped while h was visiting her and watched your h go into such an high anxiety state that he could not function and his behavior got so bizarre that s was freaking out.. you are not the one who watched their s freaking out at seeing his dad like that , and you are not the one who stepped in and sat there and calmed them both down and reassured them both - in spite of the fact that he was in her house at that time. and i will say that he was going to great lengths not to let s know about that.
so for you to ask me that question - aah all it shows me is that you know nothing of my life and where i'm at, and you know nothing of my efforts
You want the details - you can have them:
my efforts at DB'ing go beyond trying to fix my marriage. I cannot fix it until I am fixed. The car accidents were a trigger for me to shut down first physically and then mentally (from the concussion) and then finally emotionally (from the post-concussion).
h and s lived for 5 yrs with someone who literally wasn't there. I was here physically but I had no emotional connection with anything or anyone (one of the wonderful symptoms of post concussion syndrome). I was in such sensory overload that everyone had to whisper around me. s couldn't play exuberantly, we didn't have any music in the house, i wore ear plugs all day long and if anyone so much as dropped a book on the floor it would send me into vicious spasms - it was 5 yrs of zig's [censored] to deal with exclusively. towards the last 2 years i became so fearful of everything that i became really clingy with h. h and s were utterly lost in it, constantly overwhelmed by my high anxiety state caused by the movement disorder. We had no support from the doctors, we lost the trial and all we were left with was a huge pile of medical bills, still unpaid, and me in the house with no sign of any hope whatsoever.
so when i say, i'm going to give him a break, this is why. i'm not saying he did everything right or was justified in leaving the way he did because things were tough. i am saying that my huge crisis (and believe me when i say that until you've lived with someone who has a movement disorder, you don't know what horror is, not just for the person themselves but also for the people who love them) caused him to go into one.
i have discussed the effects of what s and h went through with 4 therapists and they all agree that what i describe could very well be some sort of PTSD reaction. (he suffered more than i did emotionally - and he couldn't handle it. there is nothing worse than watching someones brain go haywire and send every muscle in their body into jerking spasms, including their eyelids so they are functionally blind. all he could do was to get me into a safe position so i wouldn't get hurt while the episode lasted. he got to feel so helpless that it overwhelmed him completely. and when i say sensory - you can guess what that included and what effect that had on him. i do believe the whole thing seriously traumatized not just h and s but both families. i spent most of that time contorted into different positions by the spasms and looked like i was 85. i saw the look in their eyes
(so now you guys know why i really get so delighted about how good i look now - grin)
i worked f*cking hard for 3 years to get over all that stuff, and i am still dealing with the leftovers.
so there you have it star sky - for the last few days, i've been hesitant to write this stuff- not wanting to justify myself or h in this. the additional fact is that we already had problems in our r before the accident and that the effects of the accident just made everything really really bad. (what people don't know in general is that neurological conditions are always accompanied by psychological ones, and also that people with movement disorders - their spouses leave them within 2-4 yrs because of the trauma or not being able to handle it) h refuses to acknowledge that anything that happened in the last 5 yrs before he left had anything to do with his decision. he only refers to the first 5, which the therapists thought was significant in his shutting down
he's just another person star sky - with strong points and weak ones, just like the rest of us. and in spite of him acting like a complete alien, i still know he has very very deep feelings for me - as i do for him. i know that he may never come back and i think in the end i will understand. i've wondered a lot why we got the deal we got and i have felt very bitter about it as h as. but we didn't get to choose, you know. and if this is part of the result, then we both have to live with it. not just me, h too.
as one of the marriage counselors said - yes you had problems in the first yrs just like any other couple - but there's no way to tell what may have happened if you hadn't had the accidents.
well there's no way to tell still - maybe that's the whole point - nothing more, nothing less
so lets not "fight" - star sky - i've had more than enough challenges to last me a very long time - and i just want to be able to approach this with as much love and kindness as i can possibly muster - that's all i want to be good at for now
(( ))
zig
thanks everyone - for your amazing support , as always...
you are all so close in my heart tonight. i don't think i've ever had so many supporting me when they didn't even quite know what they were supporting me for
i'm closing this thread now - and ending this part of the discussion
see you at the next one.....
or should i say - at the picnic
i have a lot of love for all of you
zig
Zig, it is clear you do not want me on your sitch, so I will leave.