guess i got locked out. it seems as if i only just started that last thread.
well, today has been a strange day.
i can't say where i really am, but the urge to go to h and tell him that i now after all these months can really really see where he's right about so many things, is getting quite over-powering.
i've been working my way to this place slowly - and looking back i can see soooo much more clearly how i DIDN'T validate -really really validate what he was saying.
but as i go through my own intense inner growth and movement - [censored] i can see how he has been so on the mark about so much.
i was so hurt and offended when a few weeks ago, he sort of "topped" it off by adding that we even started out completely wrong and i wasn't ready for a relationship. at the time it was just like 'oh this is too much" but now i start to see how right he is - we DID start off all wrong
the other side of it is that it doesn't change what he's doing and how he's going about it. but the fact of the matter is, that i'm the type of person that NEEDS to be completely honest and up front about whatever it is that i have realized as my part in this.
i've owned a lot, but have remained resistant to deeper things that i haven't wanted to face.
like my own decisions for entering this relationship - my own state of mind back at that time when i agreed to keep the baby. it is hard for me to admit all these months and years, that they were my decisions. h might have told me a lot and insisted that we couldn't have an abortion (it felt like a HUGE amount of pressure to me that i caved to, at the time). in some ways i saw it as him trying to hold on to me also if i kept the baby. i had in all essence walked away from him after the affair. on th either hand i was clinging to him as an emotional refuge to avoid really facing the pain of the divorce
i have , in a cowardly fashion, always held that against him - it came up a lot in the first years - i was never willing to face the fact that I had agreed to it. in my mind i saw it that he made me - and now, i see so clearly how weak and lost i was then, in the throes of the divorce and the affair with h. that i hadn't been capable of making any good decisions for myself, and it affected so deeply what happened after we moved here.
on the other hand, i do believe i was willing to make a sincere effort, but when right off from the start h didn't act as i thought a husband and new father should act i became resentful and scared. scared that i had made the wrong decision and uprooted my life and taken this risk - the morning after we arrived to the states - he just walked out the door without a word to go to uni and i never even knew he had left the house. he didn't come back until almost 7 in the evening - no phone, i didn't know a soul and i had a 4 mo. old and had woken up in a place i'd never been to, in a different country.
that one experience really freaked me out - and my asking him never to do that again - set the stage for his resistance - how dare i question his freedom to come and go, and everything was seen through that lens. i stifled him?
oh well, back to my original thoughts- about admitting fully to h , my part in what really happened and finally validating his feelings about it.
any thoughts or opinions on that?
this is NOT a strategy - i'm really beginning to see that i can't go back to that relationship as it was - i want no part of it, either for him or me - i just need to do this as part of the moving on - that i have left him in my mind sure in the fact that i own all my stuff and understand much more now how my decisions were my decisions and i wasn't willing to accept i made them.
i've had some strange experiences today - that really helped me take steps towards myself. one of them resulted in my becoming so keenly aware, that all this love that i want to give to h, which is unwanted by him right now - i need to direct towards MYSELF. I need that love much much more than anyone else does right now. it's so unlimited, love that is, that there will be plenty to go around when needed. but for now - i desperately need that love for myself - it's not for giving to anyone else right now.
the other realization - and this was after a harrowing 2 hours on the phone with the credit card company - when i was so sure i was right - BASED ON the facts i had - and it turned out , because someone hadn't given me some facts and had done this really goofy thing, i was thinking i was right when i really wasn't.
i couldn't help applying that as an analogy to my current sitch.( i spent over 6 hrs altogether on the phone - what a waste because no one bothered to point out something simple - they were trying to, but the way they kept saying it didn't make any sense to me - none that i could get. and so the same with this sitch - there are things i don't know and i can keep staying cooked up about what i think is wrong, when i don't even have all the facts -and land up wasting a lot of time. or i can keep moving forward and wait for the real facts without trying to do anything about it and trust that the situation is perfectly right for now.
zig
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
i know how you feel. i want to tell my H so much but it would be bringing up R talks and that's a no-no.
i think your opportunity will come. until then, you can show him in so many ways what you've come to understand and he will probably be the one to give you the opportunity. otherwise, even though your motivation is altruistic, it will come off as pursuing.
just my thoughts.
thanks scared silly
so admitting and validating what h has been insisting on for so long - that could be seen as pursuing?
i guess i have messing up big time - all along. whenever i have come to some realization such as this one, i have let him know and apologized.
yes, you're right - the opportunity will come some day - and he will give it to me. until then, i should wait quietly.
thank you - it is enough, i realize, for now that i could write about it here.
and you're right - it will show in my actions - i should allow then to be the messenger, rather than my words right now.
i feel quiet and subdued and strangely at peace right now - no urgency to do any thing about it
thank you
zig
OMG Zig this is your big breakthrough number whatever. Highlight this post. This is for you to look back and remember when you had this breakthrough.
all this love that i want to give to h, which is unwanted by him right now - i need to direct towards MYSELF. I need that love much much more than anyone else does right now. it's so unlimited, love that is, that there will be plenty to go around when needed.
this is so beautiful. It's so true. we chase, we pursue, we beg, we plead and then we decide that we should turn it all in and nurture and love ourselves. I'm happy for you!
There is so much in our sitches that are similar. Hurts that we held onto, making moves to other countries away from our support network, things early in the relationship that we were never quite sure or happy about. I go back to that shakey feeling. I've had that nervous shakey feeling so much in my life and I'd just plow on. Now for the first time really ever I think, I have this inner calm. And I'm going to hold onto that.
In my case I unhappy about how something's started and I held onto that and waited for him to prove me wrong but my energy just made it a self fulfilling prophecy. Dunno it's a lot of food for thought.
I want to be calm and confident in anything I do. No urgency!
Now my foam noodle 2x4: Last summer I saw a movie that I thought H would like, and he might have. When it came on Netflix I wanted to send him the link so he could watch it. I'm so thoughtful.
The real reason? There was a message in the movie I wanted him to get. After asking advice here, I didn't send the link.
Not only a message within but it's pursuing. I see things all the time that I want to tell him about like the silly a tv show we used to like has a new season starting, or a video I know he'll like or whatever because we have shared SO MUCH. But I resist because I don't want to pursue, I don't to put pressure and I want him to miss me. I think I went the other way too far because I'd stop myself from posting something on FB because I'd wonder if I was hoping he'd see it. And it all a bit mind f*ck.
Right now you need those boundaries maybe one day when everything is settled even if you're not R you can be friends and send each other film recommendations or give CDs but right now it's detach detach detach haha
oh and of course I'm up early you know I'm across the ocean right?
yes brit - i realize the huge breakthrough - i cried out of relief for quite awhile. it was a huge moment for me this afternoon - and it really came out of the blue after a meditation.
and it's part of the letting go - and now i see the other pattern - i'll start to let go and then i think something deep inside me gets scared - you know, that idea of if you let go you might lose them, that makes us cling on?
and then my mind started reeling and before i knew it, i was sub consciously looking for a way to "connect" with h by telling him something more that i had discovered about my part in it.
luckily i posted here and waited - and luckily for me scaredsilly pointed out what i was really about to do.
and luckily for myself - i listened and accepted.
just one more step in accepting the "brutal reality of what is taking place" - there is NO connection. not unless h makes it clear he wants one.
and so each day, i find out more and more about why nothing has been working - because i've been not understanding what it means to detach and i've been pursuing in so many ways that i hadn't realized. so each day i am very lucky when i come here, and all of you help me to see it more clearly.
did you move to another country to be with your h? are you from 2 different cultures?
" I unhappy about how something's started and I held onto that and waited for him to prove me wrong but my energy just made it a self fulfilling prophecy."
yes, i'm starting to see that -it was all about expectations.
"I want to be calm and confident in anything I do. No urgency!"
yes - i'm trying to drop the urgency - it's so difficult - it's become a tiresome habit that i need to break.
thanks brit
zig
Yes the fear makes us hold on! I leaned that from codependent no more. And yes you see more and more ways you were holding on and more levels of detachment I'm learning that too.
Yes and no. We grew up in the same culture but his family lives here. Most of them. He spent a lot of time here growing up but it was more me that wanted to move I think? I don't know. It really hurt that after he met her he said he was finally enjoying living here instead of feeling as though "it was happening around him" but i think thst falls under believe nothing be ause now i think back to trips we took and he's rewriting history because we had great times! that's why I say no one else shares our history of being from the same city it's traditions and food and culture.
Did you move to be with him?
yes - i did - under a lot of pressure from family and him.
not directly -even though that's how i remembered it. my mom insists, and so does he, that they never said anything to push me, but i remember some conversations. maybe they were pushing me to decide and i took a really long time to do so.
i was really reluctant to move to the states. maybe it was myself pressuring me really hard - i realize now, for the first time, really - how messed up i was then. the divorce had just come through - 10 days before s was born. h had to leave to come back to the states 6 weeks after the birth, and there was this time thing, because if i was to move here then we should get married there and have time to put in the app for the visa before he left. i remember feeling SO pressured, and with a new born baby, and absolutely NOT wanting to be a single mom, but the most powerful thought in my mind that tortured me back then was that i had no right to make a decision which deprived h of one single moment with his child. that's what made me agree, along with the fact that i really didn't want to be without him.
by the time s and i arrived, when he was 4 months old - i was so happy and relieved that we were together again that i completely embraced being with him. BUT i couldn't embrace living in the states (9/11 had just happened right before we came) - it took me a couple of years to adjust, and h felt this enormous guilt for forcing me to come, even though i said that i wanted to be with him. it was as if he could never get over it
now when i look back, he could have come back to do that - or i could have come to the states later, on a tourist visa - but it seemed imperative for him back then. i think maybe it was a deep fear in him that i wouldn't come and he wouldn't be able to be with his son. i know he really loved me and i really loved him.
the reluctance was that i think deep deep down i had some small awareness that i needed a little time to get over the divorce - NOT because i had any feelings left for my first husband but because it just takes time and i didn't want to be a person who remarried 5 weeks after my divorce.
after the bomb drop and our hours of talking and crying- he told me that he always interpreted that initial reluctance as a sign that i didn't love him. well - no one else thinks so - when i told mil that, she said it was ridiculous - there was so much love from me for the 2 of them - it was clear to everyone. but h felt betrayed and didn't understand that huge changes like that take time to go through, and instead of trusting that i meant what i said, maybe his own insecurities didn't allow him to believe how much i loved him. just like my own insecurities didn't allow me to believe how much he loved me.
so sad misunderstandings all around
journaling -
s spent last night and all day with the in laws. this morning mil called and said he wanted to stay there and swim all afternoon and i laughed and said that's what i expected. she asked if i wanted to come over for dinner and i said that great - i don't have to cook then.
but as the day went by, i realized that i didn't really want to go over there. i found myself thinking - i need to be more grounded and a little more detached before i can be in that house - i actually haven't been invited for dinner since january - and i've understood. h and s have been there 2 or 3 times a week and i've worked on letting that go and feel ok about it.
so i left a message for them saying i'd just come to pick s up. mil called me back to say - well h stopped by and is staying for dinner - and i said well it's good i based my decision on other reasons. she asked if i'd change my mind and come, and i said no, i don't think so - i don't need to be around him ( all these months, i waited for the opportunity) , besides i need to detach and this is part of it.
mil said she really understood and suggested that h could drop s home instead of me going all the way out there. and i said that would be great. so she gave the phone to h and i asked him and he said sure. then he asked - aren't you coming over, i thought you'd be here. and i just said no, i have a lot to get done before the week starts.
then he kept us on the phone - making me go online to check the bank account and if he'd been paid etc and then seemed to keep prolonging the conversation just talking about finances. i just quietly answered him and then said thanks for bringing s home and got off the phone.
i'm so quiet and calm now - it feels good to be here, even knowing that they are all there - in the past i had to work at getting over it. now, suddenly i don't need to work at it at all - in fact i removed myself from it one more baby step for me.
"he told me that he always interpreted that initial reluctance as a sign that i didn't love him."
sounds like "script" to me. my H took things and expanded them to make them much worse than they were. it's an excuse and blaming. it makes them feel better about what they're doing and it's helps them to continue to feel sorry for themselves.
thanks again - i admit that i am still separating out what is script and what is real.
you're on it today, girl, catching me on everything. i have simply got to get out of this slightly solemn melancholy mode here!!
journaling -
what i am about to write is horrible. i am so upset at myself. it's really difficult for me to write this here, but i'm making myself do it - not as "punishment" but just for insight from you wonderful people, and help.
i have a terrible pattern within myself - all these months i thought i had broken it completely but last night i found out that i haven't. i messed up so bad, i think, that i can't even begin to figure out where to start to rectify what i said. i think i just have to accept that i did that and then show through my actions that it's not how i meant it.
the pattern is that when things aren't "going my way" i just can't accept it and i get mean, well, last night i was mean to s saying something that was totally unacceptable.
it came out of my mouth - i was frustrated - i think i said it pretty calmly, but it was horrendous, at the time i thought i was "preparing him for the realities of the sitch" ahead. but what i was really doing was so much more insidious.
some things i learned about myself - old habits really die hard - even if you think they are gone, they are not.
there is a serious danger that i may be starting to direct my negative feelings for h towards s, because i cannot deal with them and s is here.
i am interpreting s's "being happy and wanting to be with h" very negatively and taking it personally. i found myself realizing that i was actually mad at s deep down - because ever since h bought this house, he's been so goddamn happy about it.
i am not handling things so well right now.
all these things i've written - they are horrible, and i realize i have some serious issues to deal with. so any insight from anyone else, if they have gone through similar feelings - and how they worked through them. i feel like the monster mom right now.
after s went to bed, i called my mom and was practically hysterical over what i'd said. she calmed me down and told me not to be so hard on myself that in these kinds of situations, mistakes happen. but this was not a mistake - this was me telling s things i never should have said.
i don't know how to be lovingly distant here, i don't know how to detach without turning off my feelings. i don't know how to be a mom 1 week and not the next. I have to learn these things. this is no one's problem but my own.
zig
(((zig))) these S/D situations are difficult.
You are not the first who has done this, and you aren't the last. I have had those feelings and said things to my son (the one with personality similar to H)that I am ashamed of.
It happens when I'm Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired. So I try to watch that.
I apologize. I don't belabor the point I just express that I was wrong in saying or doing whatever I it was.
I give myself credit for being able to realize what I've done and taking positive steps to change that behavior.
And then I release it.
zig, another thing that helps me is recognizing my feelings on a moment to moment basis (mindfulness). When something starts to creep in I stop and ask myself "What am I feeling?" And then just let it play out.
Getting in touch with my emotions and recognizing and accepting my them has decreased the number of times angry things fly out of my mouth.
Still a work in progress but it is progress.
Zig, you're facing things in life you never expected. How could you think you'd be prepared for them? Bug gives great advice above. Every one of us stumbles. Use the opportunity to reach out to your son and show him how to handle things when we make a mistake. We all make them. The difference is how we handle ourselves afterwards.
Look at what Bug said about moving forward and past the mistake. Act quickly and love much. Hope your day goes well.
it blindsided me - triggered off by the whole inhaler/ argument issue. i thought i was in a really good place and then this monster reared its head. yuck. i carry too many demons
i didn't know i had those feelings until afterwards. in fact - the feelings that have come to the surface - it will take me a while to work through them
i keep telling myself that it's okay, now i know what the problem is for me that is soooo difficult in this situation, and now that the feelings are at the surface, in a concrete manner i can deal with them and get through this in a better way
thanks labug
thanks ces - i will try to do that. right now i am too "consumed" by the fact that i did it.
h will pick up son here in about 45 mins, and then i shall meditate and get myself more centered
thanks for being here for me - both of you - you have been , ever since i came on this board - so consistently
Don't beat yourself up, it's horrible that it happened but now that it's happened feeling horrible does nothing. Like Bug said talk to him, make amends, but still be the parent.
I can remember being on the phone with a counselling service during a really low point saying that I felt like I was being a horrible parent and setting a bad example. And S didn't deserve this. It will come in time. You have held yourself together fantastically and these moments will happen less and less.
I think that your awareness of your underlying feelings is a sign of your growth. I think it takes great strength to admit to ourselves (and others) our mistakes instead of finding some way to justify and avoid. I do not have children, but definitely recognize the feelings you described.. ((( )))
questions for 25 , if you come over - and anyone else who cares to give their viewpoint
i read the following on crimson's thread - addressed to peringo and am copying and pasting a part of it that i really have had a lot of trouble working with
My DB coach told me something profoundly important I'll never forget.
She said
"it's NOT our job to 'teach our spouse a lesson' or 'show them the consequences of their actions',
which is what we like to call what we do when in actuality we are punishing them..."
so my question is - pertaining specifically to my sitch:
am i "teaching my WAS a lesson" or "showing him the consequences of his actions" when i say i won;t take care of s when it's his turn, and he has to work, or when s is sick, or when he's with ow and specifically asks me to keep s even if it's his turn?
by saying yes - i'm putting s's needs over my own. which is what i should be doing. by saying no - it seems that i am letting him know - you're doing what you're doing and i won't make it easy for you - in other words, consequences for his actions
where does the above statement fit in together with making boundaries to protect oneself?
i am very confused on how to approach this.
the other thing that i have noticed - when i pull back - h pulls back too. when i am more "generous and friendly" he is the same. is this some type of mirroring going on here on his part - that he's somehow following what i'm doing.
his behavior seems to be a separate thing from his actions (continuing to be with ow), but now in the last week or so when i pulled back (after a period of being more friendly and less distant) , i can see in the last few days where he has pulled back too - as if he's following my cue.
can i say it's working - that if i'm more generous with allowing him to come and go, and he responds with being more friendly and relaxed around me calling more easily etc? or is it just him taking the message that i'm okay with what he's doing.
and THEN, in terms of dropping the rope - how does that fit in with just letting things go as whatever - if he needs me to take care of s for what ever reason, no problem - would that be dropping the rope completely?
could really use your advice on this, please. i'm not even sure i'm asking the questions in the right way
thanks
zig
sorry labug - i totally missed your first reply. thanks for the hug.
the one with personality similar to H)
thats the trigger isn't it. i am seeing SO much of h in s recently - it's as if he's changing before my eyes in the last few months - i think he's trying to be like h.for all i know, in his little young mind he associates h's leaving with me, and if h left then if he's like me then he needs to change and be like h.
i'm not saying that from an insecure place - i am SO starting to find myself again, and literally by the hour beginning to be more and more the real zig.
seems as if each time i go through this "trauma" of discovering something about myself, something releases and one more little part of the real me emerges to replace it.
these last few days, i have intensively been shedding h's presence in my sense of self and it is being replaced immediately by what i originally used to feel and stand for. it's amazing how i FEEL myself more and more
I give myself credit for being able to realize what I've done and taking positive steps to change that behavior.
And then I release it.
yes, that is the way to do it - and what i have noticed is that just the mere awareness of it, seems to allow the release.
today i had the thought that when we are not aware of our true feelings, they emerge from us as seriously dysfunctional behavior, and the underlying "stuff" is so hidden that we are not even aware of it.
the insights that i made about myself after what happened last night - were huge and i saw in a flash what i had become instead of acknowledging those feelings.there was this great real ease, and i have spent the whole day with s, both of us completely in sync and i could feel from him that he could sense my peace and love, and he really responded to it
thanks for your kind words and gentle reassurance today.
zig
thanks ces - my day went well, and so did s's. he decided to stay home and we had a peaceful day together connecting quietly.
after i got through dealing with what happened in my mind - and it was sort of sudden, i was in a good place and we talked briefly, and i explained and apologized. but more importantly i showed through my actions throughout the day, that i hadn't meant that.
even though it was a very painful thing we went through, it gave me the gift of huge growth and insight and a lot of peace. it was the peace that was between us all day. s's responses and interactions with me confirmed that.
thanks brit and needgrace - for your kind words.
i knew i was beating myself up too hard over it - but it was only until i gained the real insight into those feelings this morning and allowed myself to acknowledge for the first time to myself something that i refused to deal with from the moment s was born.
i couldn't face those feelings, because "good" people don't have those. i worked my a$$ off really really hard for 10 yrs trying not to face them - and today i did - and just in the facing of them , so much fell away, so much could be seen and felt, so much could be understood, and so much could be forgiven.
i feel new today - in some little way:)
zig
for all the sagitarians this week - i thought it was GREAT!!
One thing you should have gotten out of the dizzying whirl of recent events is the fact that you’ve got to take care of yourself now. You have to nurture your own needs, and that doesn’t mean shut yourself off and be alone. On the contrary. To accomplish that successfully you have to surround yourself with people you can honestly connect with. The message of the nodes is just that simple: Enjoy closeness without fear but always remember to honor your own separateness. Period.
not just for this week - allays - honor our own separateness!
((((( ))))) to everyone
Zig,
I am going throughout the same thing with my D16.
She is behaving the opposite of how she was before H left, and is consistently rude, taunting, oppositional.
I find myself constantly wanting to tell her that she is behaving just like her father i.e. she has taken to lying bald-facedly to me, avoiding responsibility for anything, failing to do school projects, and so on.
She knows just how to press my buttons and I have ended up yelling and saying some horrible things to her in the heat of the moment.
I have displaced my anger towards H onto her, I know. And I am so frustrated to see her starting to behave in these ways.
Like you, I try to apologise and explain my lack of control. She simply sneers at me and says "I'm not listening to another lecture".
So, I still haven't worked out how to control myself or to communicate in ways that work.
But to hear from you, in such an open and honest way, about the problem is something that has helped me enormously.
I thought i was just so damaged to be behaving like this toward her. No excuses, I know, but being able to talk about has help me already.
But to hear from you, in such an open and honest way, about the problem is something that has helped me enormously.
when i wrote about it this morning - i was raw -and so ashamed - it felt as if i was baring my soul - and i was so afraid of being judged.
when i admitted to my mother last night that i was so angry about s seeming so happy about h's new house - she was shocked that i could even begin to think he was happy. she pointed out to me that he was just a child and in a lot of pain.
could i suggest to you that instead of approaching it with your d from the place where you are only seeing her behavior (as i was seeing my s's) you start with a beginners mind and see her as a child - your child, who loves both of you very much and is in a lot of pain and needs your loving presence?
that;s what i went back to after my mom pointed it out to me. and i just decided that there was no point in projecting MY feelings about h and his actions onto s - that it was my job to separate them and also my job to love him unconditionally.
we have to DB with everyone, not just our WAS's. because i'm finding now, that no one in my world is reacting to this sitch the same way i am, and i was starting to find reasons to resent and be angry with them all.
yesterday i saw the risk of losing the connection with my own son, because of what i was feeling and saying. that woke me up real fast, and made me separate things as much as i can.
you'll be okay - as ces said to me - no one prepared us for this. it's okay to make mistakes, and as labug said - the actions that come after - they are what counts after you realize what you are doing.
thank you for making me feel good about writing about this here- and you will figure out the way when you start from a place of love for your D. i can hear the kindness, love and caring in your words - so you are already halfway there:)
trust that you will find the right way to connect with her.
((( )))
zig
here's another great one:
Is the universe inherently friendly to humans? The answer's got to be either "yes, definitely" or "no, not really." It can't be in between. Whatever you may be inclined to believe, you've got to agree that there's no way to know which is true with absolute certainty.
So then isn't it stupid and self-destructive to live your life as if the universe is unfriendly? Doing so tends to cast a pall over everything. But if on the other hand you proceed on the hypothesis that the universe is friendly, you're inclined to interpret everything that occurs as a gift, however challenging it may be to figure out its purpose at first.
Oh Zig can't wait for you to read today's Cainer. he says something like you've been worried about decisions you've seen as mistakes you're about to see how right you were!
giggle!! do you read cainer too? what sign are you?
it's uncanny most days what he says. would love to hear the extended one, but it's expensive!! i think we get it a bit earlier than you - 2 pm the afternoon before.
i read h's also - yes, yes i know - detachment! but i swear i read it because it guides me often to watch for what's coming.
if it's working for me, it must be for him in some way too. some days i'll have a raw crazy day and then go read it and it will blow my mind how on the spot it is.!!
of course i don't take it literally. what's interesting is that astrologers (the better ones at least imo) often ask questions - that, in their obscurity often help me to see something that i couldn't , or work through something that i needed to.
one of my favorites is Rob Brezny - it's actually quite brilliant, and so on the mark of what i'm dealing with it's crazy.
how you doing this fine day brit - hope you're great!
((( )))
zig
yuck, shudder!!
h just dropped s home from the studio.
he had on these huge mirror glasses, and didn't take them off - i was in the back and he called me because he wanted me to know exactly how little s had eaten for lunch. i did walk up to him ready to have a relaxed conversation, but he kept those things on and all i could see was his lower face and the tension there - and i just walked back into the living room casually to get away.
we actually spoke to each other from those 2 positions for a minute more.he didn't step into the doorway - he usually does that. and i was like - okay full withdrawal again who cares.
his mustache is off and he's feeling too exposed - so today he's adopted the sunglasses like a wall.
i glanced out the window and saw him walking to his truck looking slightly defeated - his body language.
in that moment i actually really didn't want to be near him at all. not out of negative emotion, but out of the more positive emotion toward myself: this person is not good for my energy right now, i want to stay in my good space and his vibes are not matching up to mine, so it's better for me to move away.
i just felt sadness to see where he is - where he's keeping himself and where i don't need to be. i look forward to him finding out what it means to really love himself. i'm finding out what it means for me and it's very different than i thought it was.
keeping on directing the love to the right place
zig
We're the same sign my lovely! That's why I often giggle about the issues we have with out H's!
i look forward to him finding out what it means to really love himself. i'm finding out what it means for me and it's very different than i thought it was.
I am coming to accept that for whatever reason he may not choose to find that for himself. I can't make that happen for him. I'm noticing small funny things like how I don't take my phone with me everywhere, rarely check social networking sites anymore, find myself lost in thought at how pretty my rose bushes look. Loving yourself comes in many forms.
I will check out that other website. thanks!
Zig, sounds like you handled that perfectly. Good for you for not letting his negative energy affect you!
Ha - i knew that!! i just had a feeling.
don't tell me your h is a cancer, because then i'll [censored] a brick!! sorry that was crude - can't remember any more if that's an american term,or a british one or an indian one!!
by the way don't forget to read the one for gemini right now - it applies to us because jupiter - our planet just moved into gemini - it actually is very apt to us also.
i like what you said about loving ourselves comes in many forms - you're right - and to recognize each little one is the key to making us feel more whole and fill in that space - you know that space - i'm not saying, but everyone knows (grin)
well 15 mins after h left - i had to call him. s was supposed to check with him this morning about that damn fencing course and didn't. it starts in 3 hours.
i have to admit i was trying to pass it on to the 2 of them to decide - but the universe needed me to take care of it directly. so , i sighed, and picked up the phone.
it went pretty well- i stayed back, didn't push the issue and let h do all the circling with this that and the other reason - validated everything he said and just waited until he said it was okay.
what a friggin' dance!! in the end we came to a resolution together that we both agreed on. i asked him if he would like to tell s directly and he said no - you actually woke me up - i was taking a nap - 15 mins after he was here - admittedly his house is a couple of mins away - he must have left here, gone straight there and laid down. he said he had woken up at 4.30 and couldn't sleep - i know what that is - when we were together, he always did that when he was really stressed out.
he started talking about other stuff, so i gently let him for a min and then said i had to go.
lately i've been noticing very strange little things in our conversations - always about s - he'll start ranting or insisting on s do it this way or that and why doesn't s get it, etc, i find myself thinking while he's saying that hmmm funny - does he not realize everyone else is thinking the same about him?
today it was more of the same- i really want s to join a team sport - i really wish it could be that way. and i thought to myself - well, i really wish you would come back, i wish it could be that way - but i just have to accept that you aren't. just like he has to accept that s doesn't enjoy it and him wanting it for s is more a reflection of himself than s. he said something about how joining a team sport would kill s. i just said gently, it wouldn't kill him, he'd just be overwhelmed by not being able to keep up. his response - i didn't mean literally.
can't help thinking - of what i read in the mlc stuff of how it feels to them as if they will literally die if they don't run. i swear if i didn't know better, i'd think he was talking about himself rather than s - that only in talking about s he can give me this info he needs to give me.
thanks ro - as usual though i quaked a little right after - but got myself back to feeling confident that what i was doing is right and i simply don't have to "work" the situation any longer - it's not my job
no he isn't sorry!
I can't remember when this fencing sitch would have driven you up the wall, I think you handled it really well! good job
lol zig and brit...
ok then...
YOUR planet... just LEFT my sign... apparently that's good, as now I will see the fruits of my labour...
AND... YOUR planet has now just entered MY W's sign...
hmmmmm....
I love cainer's dailies...
oh, and [censored] a brick is not crude...
isn't it proper Queen's english? lol
I can safely say no. One wouldn't dream of using such words to express oneself!
hmmmm... well then it's east coaster's...
oh bummer - it got censored - i didn't notice!!
and i think you're right KD - it's east coast - i forgot i lived there too - for 5 years.
ooh i was young and dashing back then....
just looked in the mirror this morning and noticed that i look almost as young as i did 20 yrs ago - got it confirmed by my therapist who saw me in the throes of the worst of the movement disorder - when i looked 80 (not exaggerating)
poor h - that's what he left. now i'm confirmed one sexy young looking' chic and starting to have a ball!!
KD - glad you're into caner too - or are you?
how DOES one express themselves - across the pond, that it??
here's something to spark off a discussion,i imagine.
to preface - can't really understand yet why this was put on my plate today, but i'm giving it at least 48 hrs!!
i was at IC today and we started off with me telling her about what i saw as my progress and the things i was working through and the insights i've been making. also talked a lot about the significant reduction in my anxiety level, once i had gone to the root of what really caused it and acknowledged my deep feelings.
can't remember the whole thing and how the conversation got to this - oh yes - i mentioned briefly that i was starting to struggle with not having sex - this came on the tail end of the sexual issues with my first husband , and how h and i don't have sexual issues, but they BOTH insisted that the amount of sex we had was only because i had been sexually abused and how it pissed me off that they put it all on me. but i talked about how ml was always wonderful between h an i.
so then i mentioned how in a month and a half it would be a year, and how not having any sex was starting to get to me.
the next thing that came out of IC's mouth just about had me on the floor stunned. it was the last thing i expected her to say - beyond the last thing, as it simply hadn't occurred to me. she says - well why don't you go to your husband and say, it has been a long time and my sexual needs are not getting fulfilled and i would like to do something about it with you. that it was my right as a wife to ask that of my husband.
she explained - that it was not a strategy to get him back - she thought i was in a strong enough place to do it, but she said that if i had any expectations that it would lead to something else, then i shouldn't do it - or if it would make me feel terrible that he didn't come back in spite of ml with me. she said it was a no strings attached thing. that she believes in women's empowerment, and that it would be very empowering for me to ask directly for what i want and get it. i responded - like he's taking what he wants and i should do the same?
i asked if she knew anyone else who had done this and what the results were - and she said it happened all the time, and it was a way to gather data about the real state of the marriage. it could be we both found out that we really still had a deep connection (she said the sex life is like the cement of the marriage), or that one of us couldn't actually do it,or both
i said - if we put it in the context of him being in an mlc, how does doing something like this fit in? (in my mind i'm thinking - is this serious pursuing, or if i make it clear there are no strings attached, then its just getting something i can't get from anywhere else, because i intend to stick to my commitment until it is legally ended)
i told her that my first response was immediately - i don't want to sleep with him when he's with someone else. and i was actually quite uneasy when we were discussing this.(maybe the influence of this board and MWD's theories). she said that she wanted me to stop walking eggshells around him. i told her that i have just finally managed to stop doing that
after i described his withdrawal behavior in the last few days - she then said - no you can't do this - you guys are not in a place for that.
and to top it off she pointed out that ow being here for 9 days boded really badly for the outcome of this, i said, there are a ton of people where the WAS lands up living with the ow and they manage to R.
but she said that the fact that he has now brought her up here into HIS life for 9 whole days, makes him realize that he can have this really.
then we ended with me a little upset because we talked about s's b'day party and that i had agreed to do it at in-laws house as usual with h. and how i didn't want to continue to give everyone the picture that we were both okay with the separation - it's our bash of the year party that our friends and kids talk about for months - and how i really did not want to do it - but felt i have to do it for s's sake. s was really upset when i suggested a couple of weeks ago that we'd have smaller party here at my house. then i gave in and changed my mind after pressure from mil.
so oddly enough, after running errands and coming home, i'm a bit like - oh whatever - i'm not really attracted to h right now, i realize, but have to admit that just the thought of possibly even doing that has now been planted in my mind, and as i said in the beginning - wtf? why did i need that
can't help thinking - here's an opportunity that's been given to me - for what? to test my endurance, my patience, my true feelings about h, my true feelings about under what conditions and whom i would like to ml with?
so i imagine the db response to be certain things -surprise me!!
anyone read or heard of anyone actually doing this>
zig
ps. i wish i'd thought to ask her: he's clearly telling me that he does not wish to be my husband right now, so why would i ask him to do what a husband does?
First off - probably a good thing to give it 48 hours to think about.
Second - my DB coach has specifically said to not feel bad about, ahem, using H for my own pleasure (and to frame it as, well, you're still my H, I have needs, it's no big deal, etc.). I'm not mentally capable of doing that right now, so I understand your resistance. My concern for you is that if your H is having, ahem, relations with OW, would you want to put yourself in the position of exposing yourself to something that could affect your health, ahem if you get my drift. That [censored] to think about but if it's a possibility then you want to make sure YOU are protected in this situation.
So... no helpful direction here, really, just something to think about and letting you know that the idea maybe isn't as crazy as it sounds.
this is why i posted - to find out if this is part of the db'ing.
have to admit that i am surprised that it is. if one is ready to handle it well. could you say more about what your coach said?
also as far as the std's , i didn't bring it up with IC but i did think about it in my mind. in the very beginning h slept with me before he told me - and then i found out that he hadn't used protection - i seriously lost it - i was quietly angry - but very very angry. he apologized.
apart from not protecting me and himself - what a stupid a$$ thing to do with someone you met on the very first day and TRUSTED them that they were using contraceptives?
ach!! pure frustration!!
thanks vera - i'm glad you responded
this is definitely not something that is openly discussed not he boards - could it be?
zig
fil did the same to mil with each of his affairs, and his affairs were with men. so i guess that sort of disrespect runs in the family.
but if i did choose to do that i'd use protection - which of course he hates!!
poor h - that's what he left. now i'm confirmed one sexy young looking' chic and starting to have a ball!!
I thought the same thing. H has said I'm prettier. I can see that for my self. She's 3 years younger than me and looks 9 years older. She's not very into fashion or very "girly" and H is a bit of a snob I find myself being amused by what he must be thinking on some level about her friends. But.....his choices are his choices. We are sexy looking young chicks!!
TBH I think Brits say it. I was just joking that the Queen wouldn't say it!
I say, in the words of Amy Winehouse, NO NO NO. Look it's been chemically proven that women form a connection based on chemicals released at orgasm. This is the opposite of setting boundaries and detaching. Trust me, I used to be one of these you can have no strings S, it's not true.
Also I think one of the big reasons I had trouble with H is that after he'd had 2 dates with GF I seduced him. Totally did it to try and get him back, but told him it was just for old times sake and maybe I wanted to know he still found me attractive. one big massive Mind F*ck is what it was.
I don't think you can detach if you're getting naked. just my thoughts. And what if he says NO?
But the choice is yours and I would put it this way....would the person you are striving to become do this? If yes, then go ahead. If no, then buy some toys and pick up a copy of 50 shades of Grey!
Also you IC seems to be giving a lot of opinions, IMO. Mine would say things like I've seen all sorts of things happen with couples and would never say if she felt one way or another. The only positive she said is that it sounded like were still very fond of one another and that she'd seen couples in MC with her who didn't like each other that much.
zig - what she said is pretty much what I typed up there. I think it's really dependent on the individual situation. I like Brit's thought - would your best self do that? My gut says no, I'm not really into it. Would it be a 180 for me? Definitely. But it's not a 180 I'm comfortable doing (and I don't mean, it's uncomfortable to talk to someone at a grocery store uncomfortable).
^^^^^ LOL a 180 for me would be to quit shaving my armpits or dye my hair blue but I'm not doing that either!
thanks brit for responding.
girl - if i was on the other side of the pond, i'd want to meet you!!
I say, in the words of Amy Winehouse, NO NO NO. Look it's been chemically proven that women form a connection based on chemicals released at orgasm. This is the opposite of setting boundaries and detaching. Trust me, I used to be one of these you can have no strings S, it's not true.
i totally agree - i found myself sitting there thinking - how the hell would i detach while doing THAT!! how can i have sex like that? i want to ml with him in a beautiful way - not just have sex.
besides - i tend to fall in love with the person i sleep with (or should it be the other way around grin!!)
after he'd had 2 dates with GF I seduced him. Totally did it to try and get him back, but told him it was just for old times sake and maybe I wanted to know he still found me attractive. one big massive Mind F*ck is what it was.
oh yes - you don't have to convince me. i actually forgot to post about that. i sort of did the same. i asked h to ml that night saying that just when i was really finding myself sexually he was taking off, and could we just have sex. he agreed and it was great for me.
the next night - we were talking for hours - I had really absolutely no expectations to do it again, and suddenly he turned to me with the most raw look i had ever seen form him - he had never shown me his wanting me that openly and we had the most amazing sex. again i had no expectation. then found out about him not using a condom and got mad. withdrawal for a few weeks,a nd then the next time he was pissing drunk. and that's when it turned into a mndf*ck for me, because after that he came and told me really kindly that HE was going to stop it because it was "better for me"
that was a serious mind f*ck and took me a long time to work through.
also the last time when he was drunk - he actually turned away from me and i said - you feel like you're betraying her? and he said yes, and we lay there quietly and i said there's no way we need to do this. then he turned to me and started furiously. i was so mad at myself for continuing with him. i should have stopped it there. i remember feeling that he was just having sex with me - in this callous cold way as if i could have been anyone there - and doing it to prove to himself that that's what it was
later over the next few weeks - occasionally it would be too much for him and he would come and kiss me passionately and tell me how sorry he was and then all of that stopped.
i think - that why this has really come up is not for me to make the choice but to deal with what happened that night. he turned what was the most beautiful thing for us into something that made me feel bad about myself sexually and as a person - and i think i've been carrying that for all these months and haven't been able to deal with it directly.
of course, now i see where before i saw those as signs of hope, sadly now i see that it was his way of confirming that i was still available. should have never let him touch me. i gave so many mixed messages then- asked him to move out until he was done with the affair, but then slept with him and let him his.
sheesh was i a mess back then. NO self-empowerment whatsoever!
oops have to rush off to pick up s but will write more later
I agree! The big thing with female empowerment (that I've learned) is that just because you may see yourself and S act in one way...that doesn't mean they see as independent, empowered etc. I don't think men see it that way at all.
oh Zig I'd love to meet you too! Who knows what the future holds! LOL beginners mind and all!
So I've never put this on the board but for a few mornings before he moved out I would get into bed with him and cuddle in the mornings before we both got up and got ready. He was still dating her and telling me we couldn't get back together right now (but maybe in the future) and I was distraught and a mess. I don't like knowing that I gave him comfort and warmth and took from him comfort and warmth when at the same time I was hurting so bad from actions he was continuing to do. It's a dangerous game!!!
About a month after he moved out he came over and was flirting heavily even commented if we were younger we'd already be in bed, but we were being adults. And he even said he'd been thinking about our last night quite a bit. I don't know if looking back I don't know...but I was just like you can't talk this way when your still carrying on a R with her.
and that's what it comes down to for me.
suddenly he turned to me with the most raw look i had ever seen form him - he had never shown me his wanting me that openly and we had the most amazing sex.
also the last time when he was drunk - he actually turned away from me and i said - you feel like you're betraying her? and he said yes, and we lay there quietly and i said there's no way we need to do this. then he turned to me and started furiously.
later over the next few weeks - occasionally it would be too much for him and he would come and kiss me passionately and tell me how sorry he was and then all of that stopped.
Zig, your descriptions of what happened with your H are pretty much identical to what I experienced in the weeks/months after BD.
My H would say "I'm so confused" a lot at the time too.
The extent to which the MLC is scripted constantly amazes me. Also gives me hope that my H will work through the phases and come out the other end.
These days he seems to have 'made his choice' as it were and I think he definitely feels that doing ANYTHING with me (let alone having sex) would be a betrayal (both to her and, I believe, to me).
I've also pondered asking the 'no strings, but PLEASE help me out ' question.
I sort of tried it once many months ago and he refused. In the end I was bargaining him down and asked if he would even kiss me 'one last time' or give me a hug (I was in a really bad state one day and lost it all completely). He was willing only to put his arm around me.
I could tell that he saw it as a further betrayal of both me and the OW and that it made him very uncomfortable.
I think that the only way it could happen would be by not talking about it, but somehow just finding yourself in the moment and seeing how things developed.
These days however, I'm no longer at the point where I would want to have this sort of interaction with him - I think.
Unless it was a completely utilitarian one for my own purposes, and I'm not sure I'd be able to look at it like that yet/ever.
And Busto tells me that by doing this sort of thing I am implicitly disrespecting H - he's told me it's over; time to show I'm listening.
But then again... it can still be over and we can still have sex - right?
Just because we need it, right?
But why do we need it with H? Because it's convenient? Or because we want to get him back? And like your IC said, plenty of people say that it works to keep the connection in a M that's broken down. Oh boy....going round in circles now.
Anyway, thanks so much for your openness and honesty in putting this sort of stuff out there for discussion. Sometimes I'm so ashamed of myself for feeling like I do about my H - that I still want him after all he's doing - that I'm too embarrassed to talk about it.
I don't like knowing that I gave him comfort and warmth and took from him comfort and warmth when at the same time I was hurting so bad from actions he was continuing to do. It's a dangerous game!!!
ah brit - that's what hurts so much doesn't it? it feels as if we betrayed ourselves deep down, that we would give so much of ourselves even while we were being so betrayed and disrespected
but I was just like you can't talk this way when your still carrying on a R with
her
you are one strong lady - i didn't have the self esteem and self confidence to say that to him directly. the last time though - at a halloween party, when i completely didn't expect it, at my sweet friends house - he followed me into the bathroom (it didn't have a lock and started kissing me passionately - when i realized that we were one step from having sex right there i stopped it and pulled back. he left and then came back in again, and i think we talked a bit and hugged really deeply and he said that he was so sorry that he was hurting me. i replied it's okay i understand.that was the last time
one of the things i did really wrong in the R was that i rejected him - a lot. and that really hurt him. and that day , i did it again, and i think he saw it as more of the same. now of course it doesn't matter....
on the other hand - as i wrote the description of what happened up above, i realize how far i've come and how much more i love and respect myself. i think if it happened today that he said that, i would look at him calmly and say yes you have really hurt and betrayed me, i never expected that of you.
thanks soooo much for telling me that even this is part of the script. i am still finding my way out of the muddles of how the sexual abuse REALLY affected me and what happens across the board.
i thought that my actions were because i didn't care enough about myself (a common occurrence in adults who have been sexually abused as kids)
to feel any negative emotions in the sex arena, is definitely a difficult area to wade through for me, but i am happy to say that i can see a huge difference in how i view what's ok for me and acceptable NOW as opposed to before
These days he seems to have 'made his choice' as it were and I think he definitely feels that doing ANYTHING with me (let alone having sex) would be a betrayal (both to her and, I believe, to me).
another relief to hear that my h is not the only one - this has agonized me so much, and i've seen it as proof that there's no hope. but that's not true - if it's something that's part of the script?
I think that the only way it could happen would be by not talking about it, but somehow just finding yourself in the moment and seeing how things developed.
These days however, I'm no longer at the point where I would want to have this sort of interaction with him - I think.
that's so not happening - he told me that he couldn't bear to be around me because the sexual attraction was so strong that he was in agony. and so his hard withdrawal since then (around november) is i think because of that. and it was - we'd be over at the in-laws and mil would say to me later that it was downright uncomfortable for them because the sexual vibes were so strong. interestingly - they were stronger than they had been ever - we actually admitted to each other that we fell in love with each other again after the bomb drop, during those weeks of talking. but he also said that he was still going to be with ow - I can't give her up right now)
what you suggested as the only way that it could happen - i don't think so for me at this point, and i've often thought about what i would do if out of the blue something like this came up - would i go with it? would i say h, i cannot ml with you while you are in another relationship - i respect myself too much for that. would that be losing a chance to make a real connection? or would that be me just dissing myself
hard questions - would love to hear from others, especially the vets about their thoughts on it
right now today, i'm finding myself thinking - no, i don't want to have this kind of interaction with him either, just like you. he's not looking too attractive right now (and i don't mean just physically) and i now know so much more clearly what i want in a relationship that i can't see myself compromising for just a little of something, when i could have so much more.
Anyway, thanks so much for your openness and honesty in putting this sort of stuff out there for discussion. Sometimes I'm so ashamed of myself for feeling like I do about my H - that I still want him after all he's doing - that I'm too embarrassed to talk about it.
oh sweet girl - do not be embarrassed to talk about it and work through your feelings and not be ashamed. why shouldn't we want our spouses - we promised to love and stay with them until we died - no matter what. it's the little devils inside of us that bring it up in terms of shame - as if we were the ones who did wrong
i know that feeling too - i don't feel shame as much as anger and frustration with myself that how could i want this person who has rejected me so deeply. maybe i'm not ready to face the shame BEHIND those emotions - i'm sure i'll find out soon enough - at the rate i'm going
maybe we should all talk about this - and hear each others pain - this is one of the biggest hugest things we have to deal with for us LBS's whose WAS"s are involved with OP's. there is soooo much pain in that.
i am now finding out that just letting myself feel the REAL emotion and fully acknowledging it leads to a world of new peace i've never felt before - and only in letting it come out, do i seem to be able to lessen the pain about it.
is this a place we could allow ourselves to release some of that pain? among people who really know how it truly feels? no judgements, no criticisms, just with honesty and acceptance. the reason i ask is that both yours and brit responses to me were the type that just made me feel understood and helped so much to feel better about what happened. the phrase kindred sprits comes to mind - and if anything, that is what we all are here.
((((NLW)))))
thank you
zig
i just read nci's and bustorama's recommendations to NCL on her thread - about establishing boundaries and that until i really do nothing will change in the sitch
so does this apply to WAS's in mlc/
reading on the mlc threads - the advice is soooo different - to be patient and wait until they come out of replay.
i need to get advice on the issue with s's b'day and my participation in it.
i am very confused about what to do.
i have to take care of a few things, but will try to put my thoughts down later tonight
zig
zig, yes... I do like cainer and read him daily... his posts are just... fun...
Now, on the sex thing... let's just say... it's complicated...
So first of, the advice here is generally... when there's a PA... just say, "NO!"
When there appears to be no PA, then... well...
It certainly is DB, in the right context.
Understand that many people who find themselves to this board are looking at LRT as their only DB option. LRT includes no pursuit.
But... DB ALSO says, "do what works". And if it's a possible 180 and it works, then yes... by all means...
and also, nothing about DB is completely set in stone. They are pretty clear, but they are also guidelines which each one of us should modify, according to the context of our sitch, at any given time.
For example, dbmod recently went through and bumped posts of newbies. In one, dbmod indicated the member should be in LRT... but, should be looking carefully for baby steps AND move towards the spouse as they occur, as the member's past behaviour was detached from their spouse... so a 180 would be pursue, but LRT says no pursuit... but in context, pursuit is DB acceptable because as soon as the dynamic changes...
well... LRT is LAST RESORT... but it really is meant to be as temporary as possible.
hope that made sense...
i just read nci's and bustorama's recommendations to NCL on her thread - about establishing boundaries and that until i really do nothing will change in the sitch
so does this apply to WAS's in mlc/
reading on the mlc threads - the advice is soooo different - to be patient and wait until they come out of replay.
i need to get advice on the issue with s's b'day and my participation in it.
i am very confused about what to do.
i have to take care of a few things, but will try to put my thoughts down later tonight
zig
To quickly respond to this as well...
Remember... each sitch is unique... IF you find your sitch similar to NCL's, then there is the possibility that the advice to you would be about the same... but if there's a difference between her H's and your H's behaviours... or her behaviour and your behaviour... well, then the advice might be different...
BTW, boundaries are FOR YOU!
Like all things DB... it's not about them, it's about us... We set boundaries of what we will or will not accept. We don't control them, we simply respond based on our boundaries that serve us.
For example, my boundary was that I want no communication with my W. The best I can hope for is minimal contact because there may be very important kid stuff. It has taken consistent behaviour from me for over six months for that boundary to be solid and respected by my W.
The boundary... was for me... because I just can't deal with her drama. Maybe I could learn to... but... that's not something that I want in my life (drama) so it's not something that I will allow in my life.
Regarding advice for those whose spouse is MLC... yes, patience... but really what we're hoping to establish with the LBS is to get off the roller coaster, detach, and GAL... so that we create the least resistance for the MLCer to work through their necessary path... disruptions can cause MLC to delay... if nothing else, we do not need to be the cause of that delay...
And then there's those who think the MLCer is coming out of it and jump into the M again only to find the MLCer runs away because they were just doing a "touch and go". Back on the roller coaster...
So... that being said...
In your sitch, H's PA = No joy stick from H
In regards to your s's b-day... that's about your s... you are allowed to change your mind, but you should be sure to let your s know (once this b-day is over) that the NEXT b-day could very well look different. You don't have to describe it as smaller... just different...
Do the b-day as your s hopes this year... you've already established to him that it will be so...
oh shite KD - sometimes your posts confuse me even MORE than i was already confused.
my head is starting to swirl a bit here after the discussions of today - and all this other stuff is starting to come up as if i have to decide right now about everything and that's when i get in a really bad place.
i have to learn to just drop it all
frankly after reading your response - i was leaning towards - this is just not f'ing worth it. i so need a break after 10+ months of trying to figure out all day long what is the correct DB approach. what to say what to do, what not to say etc. the best 180 here i could do for myself is just stop trying so hard - stop trying at all. what am i even trying for here - i'm losing sight of it, i think
i don't care any more what he wants and whether what i do is affecting him or how it's affecting him. it's about time i started thinking about myself
on the other hand: am i done here or just temporarily exhausted from my own emotional out pourings that are so heavy to get through
frankly the thought of offering that to h, makes me sort of sick to my stomach - go figure - i've spent 10 months working hard to "save my marriage" and today when the option comes up sort of, it makes me sick to my stomach
or am i sick to my stomach at the thought of him saying no?
how's this for my horoscope read this 3 days ago for this week and couldn't help thinking about it after the discussion with IC and the shock had abated
This coming Monday creates one more day of pressure at your home or at work. By now you have had it and you finally take matters into your own hands and do something firm about the situation. This not only relieves the pressure but it also seems to set you on the road on which your are supposed to go. If you do not do something you will somehow be forced to it by the situation. Read Gemini as it applies.
This is a week that a surprise move is made either by yourself or by someone else. Either way the move is a very unexpected and quite beneficial to you. Toward the weekend you believe you are making a very intelligent decision but you must be sure you are not deceiving yourself through your emotions. If a rational judgment is to be made, you must keep your emotions entirely out of it. Read Sagittarius as it applies.
just thought i'd take the time to add that in for a good belly laugh. note how it points out clearly that i have to leave my emotions out of it entirely
the universe is f'ing with me today - i HAVE TO CHILL!!!
I FRANKLY DON'T THINK I HAVE THE GUTS TO ACTUALLY DO THIS - unless i got some teeny tiny little itsy bitsy sign!!
either way - thanks for your thoughts on this - i think i have to read through your post after my minds a little more at ease. - in the morning
oh and btw,
Now, on the sex thing... let's just say... it's complicated..
is this just a totally male answer? soooo frustrating!!! can't we have some real concrete thoughts on it -from both the men and women here? go on , give it a try
thanks again KD
you are one sweet support for me
zig
Regarding advice for those whose spouse is MLC... yes, patience... but really what we're hoping to establish with the LBS is to get off the roller coaster, detach, and GAL... so that we create the least resistance for the MLCer to work through their necessary path... disruptions can cause MLC to delay... if nothing else, we do not need to be the cause of that delay...
i'm actually off the roller coaster now - in terms of h, directly - find myself not reacting much to how he is from day to day as i did before, an when i start going down the road of "oh, i wonder if that was the right thing to do n what he might get from it" i stop immediately and shrug and say - i guess i don't really care right now.
And then there's those who think the MLCer is coming out of it and jump into the M again only to find the MLCer runs away because they were just doing a "touch and go". Back on the roller coaster...
no fear of that for me any longer - i am Sooo cautious now, i surprise myself!!
In your sitch, H's PA = No joy stick from H
what can i say, KD? brilliantly put! confirmed! Hallelujah!
as for s's b'day - yes i agree. said s needs to be put to bed right now, as he's pushing it on the late nights. but i will come back later and explain my "other" struggling feelings about it
thanks for giving me so much time - i know you're trying to do other things, so i am extra grateful for the attention. much appreciated.
zig
btw - i guess i should also mention that i am sooo happy to get some concrete yeses and no's here
You're overanalyzing everything, there are very few absolutes in life. Become the woman you want to be, within a framework of how you want to treat others and how you allow others to treat you.feel confident in YOUR choices and let the chips fall where they may.
Having sex with your H is probably not going to bring him back nor turn him completely away. But it might be fun.
I'm not to the "woman I want to be yet" but I'm getting there.
(((zig)))
Sorry, just saw your statement about concrete yesses and nos.
i didn't have the self esteem and self confidence to say that to him directly.
No way could I say that directly. I said it wouldn't be a good idea. He said oh it would be good. And I said but it wouldn't be a good idea. I would laugh at his flirty comments but not reply. It was only that one day.
Looking back he may have been feeling me out to see if I would have no strings sex. Or he could have been trying to boost my ego or smooth things over I have no idea. He was never the initiator we had issues in that dept and at the very end he admitted these issues have always been there. So this was way out the ordinary for him.
yup - we had issues too - the same way - he always waited for me, and i always wanted him to show more. but that came after he asked an di refused several times - baby years and then the accident
oh well
i am a little growly since he came over this morning.
he caught me off kilter.
pissing hell! he came late to pick up son - was really groggy - had seriously overslept and his class was starting in one minute.
then he says - s and i are going camping so we are going to come back later and pick up the camping gear. i said, well that's not possible because i'm going camping and am going to use it. he said well then all we need is s's sleeping bag - are you going to need that? and i said of course not.
i got slightly hassled and said, why didn't you just let us know about it so we could have brought the stuff up and had it ready. his reply - well why can't we stop by and get it later
i looked a bit incredulous and said - why do you think? and he got the message that it's not okay for me - i turned and walked down to the basement and he followed me - got the stuff and came back up.
as we walked out to his truck, i said - does it really have to be so stressful and last minute all the time - can't we have it a bit different where we can just let each other know and then it's no big deal.
he went into how stressed he was and his class had started 5 mins ago and he just hadn't thought about it. (poor guy - he did look stressed, but for once i didn't feel as if it was my problem)
i said bye have a great trip, and he turned to s and said did you say bye to zig (never refers to my relationship with s as his mother). instead of my usual hugging and kissing i just said bye s (we had already cuddled and said our byes before h got here), casually and walked back in
there's something going on - he told me that the entire week he hasn't slept and has been awake since 4 am - and he looks pretty trashed. cleaned up and stuff, but definitely struggling with something.
not my problem! but i was really irritated over the assumption that he could stop by later. same passive aggressive trip on his part - oh you're taking off on a trip you won't tell me about, here let me show you that i'm still in charge here, and i'll stop by the house if i feel like, while you're gone!!
sorry just had to vent a bit. probably bunged up the db'ing - but i've given up here, i think!! couldn't care less what the effect was - tired of walking eggshells around him and his issues right now.
mlc or not - this whole thing is getting a bit ridiculous. something has got to change - and i just have to figure out what that might be.
i can't help thinking that in his family the only way real messages get across is when they show each other great disdain. maybe that would be a good 180 here - i never tried that -it was always anger or frustration. maybe a little eye-rolling is in order. god knows i got enough of that from him over the years - maybe he needs a dose of it himself!!
am i irritated enough!!
zig
ps. i'm NOT mind reading here - but i can't help noticing that ever since i set those last boundaries - he hasn't been sleeping!! i'm not reading anything into it - just observing. and also from what i know of h, he always woke up like this at 4 am when he was really stressed about something, and of course that trashes his brain because he's one of those that doesn't function well at all unless he sleeps a full 8 hrs (unlike me who can go on 3)
and i find it a bit odd that he wants to talk to me about it - i've just mildly validated that it must be hard, and it's too bad and i wonder why, but my responses have been sort of casual and a little surprised - as in hmm wonder why that's happening do you know.
of course i know him well enough to know that his mind is cycling big time and he lies there trying to decide between whether he should or he shouldn't about whatever the issue is (it's a very strong pattern of his all his life)
oh forgot to mention
doing a pretty big thing for me this weekend - going to a machine knitting seminar on my own. its a 4 and half hour drive away - haven't done that since the accidents and i'm going to camp for the first time in my life entirely on my own
i'm rather nervous - more than nervous. especially now this morning because i haven't packed, haven't prepared or planned anything and that is so completely out of my comfort zone that i'm like, what am i doing here?
mil came over yesterday and lent me her iPad to take on the trip so i can find my way around. it was really nice of her as it will make my life a lot easier. the night before she was so worried on the phone - how can u do this, how will u manage what if something happens, and i thought to myself - i am so sick of everyone treating me like i'm utterly helpless and incapable. so i asked her that would she hesitate to go on a 5 hr drive and she said no way, and i said well why are you so worried about me - and she couldn't really reply
my biggest block to being relaxed about this is putting up the tent - which sounds really stupid, but when we went on the school trip a few weeks ago and camped the first night, i just couldn't get the pole ends into their slots - didn't have the strength and h had to come over and do it.
things like that make me a wreck because even though i want the simple independence, my body doesn't always allow it.
well i figure - if i can't get the tent up i'll just sleep in the car!!
i think my nervousness about what i'm about to do, was at the back of me getting hassled about h this morning, to be honest. i'm tired of not being able to handle the curve balls that come in on a daily basis - need to really work on that
off to throw some stuff in the car and take off - i think i'll have internet access because of the iPad but maybe not
hope everyone has a great weekend
zig
well -did it make a difference?
he called me an hour and a half later - said he was really sorry about what happened this morning. and then wanted to help me out with all this stuff.
absolutely insisted that i go over to his house and get the good bed roll and how much i would regret it if i didn't. he wanted to know if i had everything i needed
i said i didn't need the bedroll that i would be fine with the old shitty one and the yoga mat, but he wouldn't let up. i said thanks - not really sure if i want to do that
after he said i should listen to him, i laughed and flirted a tiny bit and asked so are you trying to tell me i should listen to you more?" he pulled back slightly - man, he's oversensitive!!
asked him a few questions about where he'd put some stuff i couldn't find and mostly got i don't remember and then the apologies
i totally didn't expect the call. either he was feeling bad about what happened this morning or he'd found out from s what i was really doing (and since i wasn't doing what he imagined as the worst) and so decided to be nice.
i'm beginning to see the pattern - when i'm a bit off hand, firm but polite and NOT being so nice and friendly, that is when he comes towards me. but if i'm being cool and distant he withdraws
oh and i did apologize for getting a bit hassled - said that i was occupied with my own stuff and had a lot to do, and woken up this morning realizing that i didn't have anything ready - but in a nonchalant voice which was like - i can totally deal with this, don't need your help!
oh i can't wait to get on the road and get away from this drama fro a couple of days
and btw - been invited to mil's sunday morning for fathers day lunch. already took care of helping s get his gifts ready for h and fil, but can't decide if i want to go - i don't really.
we did go - all of us there on mothers day - wasn't too pleasant.what's better? blow it off, or go there and show h my appreciation for him being s's father and the gift he gave me
ha that's a dilemma - right now don't feel like acknowledging that too much myself!!
wow, i'm in a mood her! does fed up come before total detachment?
zig
you don't have to go if you don't want to!
also good for you for noticing a pattern...do what works!
#1 You're overanalyzing everything, there are very few absolutes in life.
#2 Having sex with your H is probably not going to bring him back nor turn him completely away. But it might be fun.
Listen to Bugsy. She always tells it like it T-I-IS! LOL
I'm am totally an overanalyzer. But I also decided #2 was something I wanted to do, because things were so bad before. I'll put it this way...I've had more action since the bomb drop than I have in the past two years before that.
Do what is right for you. But be happy and content with that choice.
so he agreed to it even though you said he felt as if he was betraying ow?
i'm laughing - because your last post gave NO indication that that was happening
yes bugsy is always on the mark.
i can't say i'm not thinking about it - can't say it hasn't crossed my mind that it would be a very good way of letting him know that don't care about ow and she's irrelevant in this.
frankly i'm not thinking about it in terms of "getting him back" at all - it's just practical, because i'm not willing to have an affair while we are still married, no matter how much he says that he wants an emotional divorce etc
as bugs put it, it might be fun
but i'm also thinking about what KD said and brit.
am i detached enough to do this - i'll see how i feel over this trip and when i get back
frankly i'm thinking it could break the ice big time - there's so much pent up energy between us
then i think - allow allow allow - let this just happen without me pushing it. it occurred to me that i could just hint at my frustration and wait and see what the does with it.
at the end of that phone call he said twice - call if you need anything else. ha ha - maybe i'll call him someday and say this is what i need!!
i'm lightening up here - i'm tired of things being so heavy!!
zig
thanks brit - i take it you were referring to the fathers day thing
and do what works - actually i'm going to do what i like!! how's that
this tiptoeing around is NOT working, that's all i know!!
mil said to me this morning - maybe he's waiting for you to make a move and talk first. and i said well it seems as if he should first - and she said he's probably thinking the same thing about you
cat and house...
thanks brit
zig
do what you want on the brunch.
and do what works in dealing with him!
waiting on you to talk about what? he's in a R with someone else
I asked the W for sex about 3 months into this, it blew up big time. When we had our last counseling together a month ago, the councler asked if she had been trying for the last 6 months. She said yes, till he asked me for sex, then I was turned off. I know how you feel, I would love to have sex too. It's been since Dec. 26. Going from 2 times a week to 0, it kills. By yourself gets old. LOL
waiting on you to talk about what? he's in a R with someone else
ya think?
i swear lately 'm thinking that mil is subconsciously sabotaging my efforts. she has the strangest reactions - either she is getting all flustered and pissed about what he is doing, but lately she's started making excuses for him. like this morning when she says - oh he was stressed and tired that's why he forgot to call you - have you seen his house? if you did you'd understand why he's so stressed!!!
understand that - uh uh! he took that house on, the same way he took on the affair - and it [censored] and why should i be understanding about that?
problem is she herself is in a r with fil where he does whatever he please whenever, and i think it's too much for her to see me being even slightly rebellious. she's all on my side when i'm loving and forgiving but her hackles rise when i object even slightly/
i've been detaching from her quite a bit - in fact , quite a lot lately. taking bugs advice and staying away from his family. i don't care much for several of the decisions they have made lately and i don't really want to be a part of that scene any longer - not out of anger or anything like that - actually real indifference, as in go ahead with your lives, i'm going ahead with mine.
besides when i realized myself that i didn't want to be there - it occurred to me that it will allow him to be there more and possibly reconnect with them.
he so needs to talk to his parents and learn what really happened when his father left. he is basing all his decisions on what his father did not even beginning to realize that it was his mother who had the affair. he is going to be very confused and upended when he eventually finds out - if she has the guts to tell him, that is
for me, it's all starting to blow away in the wind a little bit more.
as for the brunch, i didn't say outright yes or no. but this morning i casually let slip that i may stay one more night at the camp so i can go visit the caves in the morning before i drive home. i think she was a bit taken aback.
you know brit - i just realized i've been in some sort of "game" for years with them and i am so so tired of playing it. it's a daily thing with the class, dealing with s, on and on! i want out right now
hmm - funny that's the exact words that h has been using since the bomb!!
sorry for your sitch shocked - and for what happened when you did ask. thanks for telling me - can't imagine how hard that must have been, especially since she got angry.
i'm sort of afraid of the rejection myself and not willing to really take that risk right now. i'm detaching, but i don't really know for sure where i'm at int he process and how stable i really am
just going to put this on the back burner for now
yes by yourself gets old in many ways more than this too
take care
zig
you know brit - i just realized i've been in some sort of "game" for years with them and i am so so tired of playing it. it's a daily thing with the class, dealing with s, on and on! i want out right now
the first time I said no, I'm not going to your mothers was amazing!!!
sometimes it's really hard to be in a country away from your family when they have their support network (even if he doesn't want it) but sometimes it's really good. Like shovelgate 2012 or when he told me this crazy story when he was helping GF move it went on and on like a bad John Candy film and I thought there's something wonderful about not being entangled with family.
it's nice about detaching that way....
hi brit - thanks
just got back a couple of hours ago from my trip.
am still on the fence of whether i should go tomorrow or not.
i don't want to go for 2 reason - i don't feel like being around them and because i have noticed that the last few weeks every time h and i were with the in-laws he absolutely couldn't handle it - he was so tense and freaked out.
so my not being there would be letting him off the hook, in a way.
ont the other hand - my not being there - is the old me (especially coming on the tail of ow's visit - i've set boundaries, been a bit impatient - i think they are signs of my disapproval - and not going on father's day is like a clear message saying 'i don't acknowledge you on fathers day)
at the risk of overanalyzing (yes, i know labug, i tend to do that too much)- going - is showing co-operation and acceptance - to all of them. he did come to the mother's day dinner at their house, and i feel as if , even though i don't really want to go, i should sort of return the favor
i'm not freaking out about it at all - just quietly trying to figure out what to do. is this the right area to "withdraw" in - i just don't know
when i talked to s tonight on the phone, i joked about when i was going to see him next - and he stayed really silent. i had reminded him to take his father's day present for h and fil in the morning with him . i think he wanted to ask me if i was going to be there (which would have been the normal thing to do - since i've been going to all the family stuff) but there was a long pause, as if he didn't want to ask. i didn't volunteer the info, because i didn't know what i was going to do.
i still struggle a bit with how he switches off from the parent who he's not with. when he's here with me, he acts as if h doesn't exist and i think he does the same about me when he's with h. poor little fellow - it must be his only way to cope through this.
thanks for your input brit
zig
You know your S best but it might also just be his personality. I have two girls and when I divorced their father, my eldest would always call the parent she wasn't with to say goodnight. My youngest never did. It was like, out of sight, out of mind. You had to call her if you wanted to talk to her, she was just off doing her thing. But the fact that she treated both parents the same told me that's just how she was, especially since my oldest treated both of us the same too (only she did the opposite). Just a thought. Maybe he's not as tortured as you think.
[quote=zig
i don't want to go for 2 reason - i don't feel like being around them and because i have noticed that the last few weeks every time h and i were with the in-laws he absolutely couldn't handle it - he was so tense and freaked out.
so my not being there would be letting him off the hook, in a way.
ont the other hand - my not being there - is the old me (especially coming on the tail of ow's visit - i've set boundaries, been a bit impatient - i think they are signs of my disapproval - and not going on father's day is like a clear message saying 'i don't acknowledge you on fathers day)
at the risk of overanalyzing (yes, i know labug, i tend to do that too much)- going - is showing co-operation and acceptance - to all of them. he did come to the mother's day dinner at their house, and i feel as if , even though i don't really want to go, i should sort of return the favor
i'm not freaking out about it at all - just quietly trying to figure out what to do. is this the right area to "withdraw" in - i just don't know[/quote]
Zig - you're overanalyzing again
Your reasons for not going, as stated above, are: 1) You don't want to be around "them" - H's family? and 2) H can't handle it emotionally.
I get your first reason but the second one is you letting H's emotions control what you do. So what if he can't handle it? What if you went because it was more time with S?
Obviously H knows you don't agree with what he's doing. I don't think that, by going to this dinner, he would take that as you waiving a flag that you are now totally cool with his actions. You could "withdraw" by not actively interacting with H, let him come to you if he wants otherwise just leave him be and enjoy yourself otherwise.
I mean, hey, at least you were invited to the family event. I was excluded from H's family's event (even though H talked to me about how annoying they were about inviting him and following up to see if he was coming).
thanks vera for pointing out how considering h's feelings about me being around is letting h control what i do.
actually - i have been going to everything without hesitation - all the invitation at their home, all the school events, even the 40th b'day of our friend who's husband is h's closest friend right now. and all i see, is h looking more and more tortured in those situations.
what really makes me hesitate today is not h and what he might be feeling - i know it sounded that way - but what s is going through when h acts like that. i've never seen s look so miserable as he has the last couple of times the three of us were together in a social situation. and since then i have backed off.
but you're right - i'm just reading the co-dependent no more workbook this morning, and finding that my "obsessing" about every little thing is a sign of my co-dependency in this sitch.
i still don't know what i am going to do. one sentence really stuck out - that it's okay to take care of myself sometimes and make that first priority.
i am going through some kind of crazy emotional release this morning - i don't know what it is , but there is so much pain and i have been crying so hard, that there's no way i am even going to look half decent by 11.30 when it's time to go there. so that may decide it for me about not going. also woken up coughing and with a sinus infection above the tooth that was removed, which the dentist said would most probably happen so am feeling a bit miserable on top of that too.
this trip away over the weekend - there was a lot of growth and much more awareness - and i'm not really sure where i'm at right now - just sort of blindly feeling my way from one moment to the next.
all of this is about my own resistance to accepting what is happening. my going would be letting it go, my staying away is saying 'i don't like what you are doing - all of you" ( i realize i have issues with in-laws and even aunt and uncle who are going to be there - all to do with my judgement of how they conduct their own marriages)
^ is the crux of what i am really fighting with here- can i just surrender to this - because in the surrendering, and letting go of those judgmental feelings, then i am free to detach a little more, and be there, just enjoy them for who they are, get to spend time with s and leave with a peaceful heart.
that is my challenge for today, and one that i don't know if i'm up for.
we have a son and a very close knit family. they are all making it clear that they would prefer to go on as if for the most part like nothing has changed. for me to not co-operate is trying to teach them a lesson - see, this is how it will change - do you feel the pain yet? (deep down i know that in-laws and everyone else are in a lot of pain about this and hate what is going on)
to co-operate is to say - i respect how you want to do this and i am okay where i am, moving forward and staying detached
beattie writes in that book about when things feel really uncomfortable (as i clearly feel right now) that's where the lesson you need to learn lies, that's where the challenge for you to over come is. if you don't feel the discomfort, then you are doing more of the same that doesn't work (for yourself, in terms of codependency), and while i write all of this, i see my mind working through what i just read and realizing that the horrible discomfort i feel is the unease of letting go and surrendering into this - which in other words is dropping the rope just a little bit more.
so one more tiny step in my own little journey towards self-healing.
i'm so glad you wrote back to me - your words triggered off a reaction in me that helped me to see where my real struggle lies - it's always within ourselves, isn't it? it's actually immaterial how the others may feel about me going - it's only more important for me to inspect what my real reasons are for going or not going
thanks vera
and if it's overanalyzing - well that's where i'm at, and in some way it helps me to get to where i need to be
zig
Sometimes I think there's uncomfort as in being nervous about going to an exercise class in a place you've never been and there's no one there and there's uncomfort where you're putting yourself in a very emotional setting that you might not be ready for.
Don't make yourself into a martyr by saying that you are going to do something because you feel like you have to face the uncomfortable thing.
A therapist who is not my IC told me to start learning a new language or something left brain related during the time that H was living here but dating and I was having panic attacks. And I said but I thought that's escaping and I should deal with all this and she said you can't deal with anything right now...your body is shutting down.
Take everyone else of the equation. You have been crying all morning and you have a sinus infection. You don't HAVE to go.
You know how like we detach from our S's with NC first so that then we're around them we can be detached more? I think that way about the family. Maybe you're not detached enough from them to be in that setting.
Big Hugs. But yes, make you a priority. Put you first. It's father's day there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying S and H have your day together, this tooth is making me ill I'm going to take a long bath/watch a movie/sleep.
oh gosh - did i sound like a martyr - i wasn't feeling that at all.
but you're right - let h and s have day together - i actually realized when i saw your words, that i was thinking that I hd to acknowledge h being a father on father's day also - didn't realize that it's about s having to acknowledge father's day to h.
hmm - funny how we approach things, all twisted.
mil called a bit ago - to let me know again that i was invited. i told her that i was on the fence about coming , but that i had decided to come. she said i really didn't have to if i didn't feel like it.
now an hour later - i really don't feel like it, so i called and told mil that i wasn't coming. she asked if i wanted to talk to h or s and i said sure - so i said happy father's day to h - and he asked about my trip and whether it was worth going, and i said happily yes.
he wanted to know whether my back was really sore - and i asked why, and he said because you didn't take the bedroll from my house, so it must surely be sore. i said i didn't have a problem and he seemed really surprised.
then he asked if i was coming, and i said that i had planned to but wasn't feeling all that good and decided to skip it. he said he wasn't staying very long, and that mil was taking s shopping this afternoon for the b'day party favors(which i already knew) then went into talking about the b'day party
that's where we went into weird territory - the party is coming up, on the 30th and i have of course been struggling with that. this party isn't just s's b'day party - it's our big social bash of the year where we invite everyone we know .
he said we should send out the invitations - and i threw out - just to all the kids in s's class? and he said, well all the other people we usually invite also (meaning all our good friends) and i just asked gently that was he saying we were going to host a social party like before, together, and that i just wanted to know if that was what he was comfortable with doing. he said - well we shouldn't not have a b'day party just because we are separated and i said well inviting everyone is more than that, but if he's comfortable with it, i could think about it and get back to him.
he said we should talk later - that there were things we needed to talk about - oh oh what's coming next!!!!!! and i said sure - there were, but not right now since he was there.
so - either i put out something he hadn't thought about and now will rethink, about whether it is a good idea or not to invite all our friends like before. or he'll just let it go.
about the invitations - he made it clear that that was something i always took care of and that i should take care of it this time too. i said lightly - well maybe we should change our roles here and do things differently - that he could do the invitations. he insisted that i should and i said well, why don't you and son put the list together.i asked if he simply didn't want to deal with it and he replied firmly no i don't. i think i said lightly that i really don't either - but not sure if i said that
you guys are always right - i just spend too much time over analyzing everything. beginning to understand that it is co-dependent behaviour that i really need to work on
thanks for walking me through this - again
one of these imminent days, i shall allow myself to release from this dysfunctional way of dealing with my stuff
zig
A therapist who is not my IC told me to start learning a new language or something left brain related during the time that H was living here but dating and I was having panic attacks
what left brain activity did u use that helped?
No I didn't mean you were sounding like a martyr sometimes I catch myself in that mindset like "I want to grow so this is a challenge I must go through" when really u think it's a lot more like listening to myself. I do forced self to do things like go for a walk when I when feel sorry for myself LOL
And try not to worry these things sometimes have a way of working themselves out remember that outdoor event I dodn't know if I should go to? It got cancelled due to bad weather!
I was in a way way worse place than you. Panic attacks couldn't go to work etc. barely functioning I didn't do anything and I should have. She had suggested taking a class or learning a language. Anything to occupy my brain.
And try not to worry these things sometimes have a way of working themselves out remember that outdoor event I dodn't know if I should go to? It got cancelled due to bad weather!
yes! isn't it crazy that life keeps on showing us repeatedly that the less we fight, or resist, the easier things are for us, and that when we just let it go, the answer comes for us from somewhere else?
i tried so hard to figure things out this morning - except i didn't know even what i was trying to figure out, that i eventually got a migraine, i think - or at least got to the point where i just had to go and sleep. i think the trip was physically a lot harder on me than i realized.
weirdly though, when i got back last night, i was calm and peaceful and felt really okay with where i was at, except for the niggling little thing of would i go this morning or not. maybe the decision was more weighted than i realized
I was in a way way worse place than you.
well, you may think so, but it's confession time - i'm finally ready to admit that i am in a way way worse place than i realized all these months. i am almost non-functional. the last couple of months i have fallen into a depression (i think part of the acceptance thing) and i am not able to focus on working. i barely get anything done each day - manage in fits and starts to accomplish just what i have to. i was really good at keeping the house together and cooking and practical stuff, and now it's all i can do to have a clean pair of shorts for s when he's here.
so i may not be having panic attacks - but i do have some serious crying jags every once in a while. in between though i do have genuine ease and calm and am quite happy and able to accept where i am
reading Melody Beatties cnm - workbook this morning - i am taking the first step - admitting to my powerlessness over this situation and h, and how my life is really unmanageable.
i'm also soothing myself as much as i can right now - trying not to be too hard on myself and understanding that i have to go through this and that the thing to aim for is to just focus on one day at a time and that's all i need to do.
i've literally just found out today that worrying is actually a way of controlling - never knew that, and in knowing that and wanting to let go of the control, i actually have given myself some kind of permission to stop worrying (which is hopefully the first step towards stopping ruminating)
so even though today has been a painful day - and not one that i expected - i have learned a lot and even though i still feel like shite and it hurts to look at the computer screen, i am quietly happy that i went through this and emerged through on the other side of it in some way.
thanks brit - for talking with me as i went through it
zig
i've literally just found out today that worrying is actually a way of controlling - never knew that, and in knowing that and wanting to let go of the control, i actually have given myself some kind of permission to stop worrying (which is hopefully the first step towards stopping ruminating)
This is really profound. Thank you for posting this - my family always says we're "worriers" - I guess really we're all just trying to control things! I'm going to marinate on this. Thanks.
journaling:
so i decided to really listen to what h was saying this morning about s's b'day party. i realize now that i have been "projecting" my own stuff onto how he may view the party and what it implies.
i need to separate what i think his motives are from what he is saying he wants to do. i have been having thoughts such as - he wants to have this party so he can show everyone that we are great, and i can't participate in that kind of thing etc.
well - after i read sgctok's first post on the power packaging - something shifted in me. i need to stop thinking about his motives or agenda, and just accept things at face value and see the positive in each situation.
so i decided i am going to see it as a very positive thing that h wants to host the party together and his aim is just to have a fun party like we always do. and to STOP doing what i always do, which is seeing the worst in every situation and looking for and imagining the worst of it.
i didn't really know how to get myself out of the position i put myself in this morning - which was asking him whether he was really okay with having all our friends there and hosting a party together.
i decided to just do it differently - and just not explain myself or how i'd changed my mind. just took the bull by the horns, called him and said - wanted to check if you want to invite this one family (he spends a lot of time with the guy, and they've gotten quite close), and that i need his email address - basically letting him know indirectly that i was going to go along with his requests - of inviting all our friends and doing the invites.
he actually responded in a friendly manner and we discussed a couple of things. i said i'd make a list and email it to him so s and he could go over it and finalize it.
i casually said - you're right we should do it this way - everyone loves it and has a blast and so do we. he agreed
so there it goes, and i'm just not going to fight this or resist it in anyway - i have always loved that party and i'm going to love it this year too and make sure that it's great for everyone. i'm just going to look at it as - maybe h is ready to have a positive experience together, or maybe he's not, but either way i could make it a great experience for myself.
zig
i meant to mention in my last post the reason for my depression. the depression isn't about accepting that h has left, it is actually about after letting go of all the reasons he is doing what he is doing, by letting go of the focus on HIM , i am starting to SEE myself more and who and what i really am and finding that there is so much to work on that it is almost overwhelming.
to REALLY start to look in the mirror and see what i have been and where i need to change and improve - is a huge prospect. i find, that instead of turning away from it and being scared of approaching it, i want to embrace it fully and go through the pain of learning who i am, what i have to change and how i can change it.
my journey is just beginning , it seems, and the journey with h and how things go between us seem less and less important each day - as if i'm suddenly really beginning to understand how much more crucial it is that I HEAL rather than that our marriage heals, right now.
i imagine the depression about it is part of the first step in moving in that direction - and that as i trust more and more that i am capable of making this journey on my own, i will become more confident and able to do it.
zig
Hi Zig,
Yes, it's important to look for the good in all the discomfort. That does help a ton.
You are doing the best you can and remind yourself of that too. Patience with yourself above all else is important. These situation ARE difficult - no matter how you slice it. It's ok to feel down about it, it's a pretty darn good reason in fact to feel down about it, but you're perseverance and attitude of growth does help lift the old spirit. Good for you!
I understand the lethargy and not being able to focus so well at the moment too. Have you tried homeopathy to help out with the anxiety? It does help to clear it out of the aura as well as the body.
Take care of yourself
Yes, you are your own priority.
thanks yc- i'm back on my anti-depressants since last week. they aren't allopathic - i got them from the naturopath and they are definitely helping.
i realized what happened just last week. i had noticed that i was doing less and less well these last couple of months and put it down to the sitch getting worse and worse. then one day i realized that around march i quit taking them - convinced that i didn't need them anymore and that if i was good in this sitch, and could a mange to feel great in spite of what was going on that i was past needing them
well, i believe i was wrong and my downhill slide proves that - there is noting changed in the sitch really - the change has been how i have been handling it.
i would love to try the homeopathy - but can't afford to go to the homeopath - did you get something from a organic store, or did you go to the homeopath?
thanks for the encouragement
zig
this from Codependent no more workbook
"I've learned to redefine happiness too, Happiness is not the lack of problems or pain. Happiness is surrendering to every feeling that comes along and being at peace with what is, even if I'm feeling white hot rage. I've noticed something surprising. Often the people who have lost the most are the happiest after they get through their grief. That's because they dropped their illusions about life and learned to accept life on life's terms"
s i've decided to add a little humor to my life. yesterday i was so down on myself it was ridiculous. then i see cainers horoscope for tomorrow, and i started to laugh -
for all you sages out there - read and follow!!
If you want to feel bad, it isn't hard. No special skills are required, no training sessions are needed. You just have to give yourself a bit of a hard time. Criticise some of your recent choices. Doubt whether you really should be doing what you are doing at the moment. Wonder why anyone else on this earth could ever like you when you are not so sure that you even like yourself that much. There. That's more than enough on that subject. Now, here's how to make yourself feel good? Just refrain from doing any of the above!
let's all put this one to good use, eh?
cheers
zig
[s. i swear this roller coaster ride sometimes makes me wonder if i'm manic depressive the way my moods shoot up and down!!
cheers Zig I'm a sag too and that made me laugh. I think it applies to all of us!
journaling
i've been busy yesterday and today - my intern started and after 4 hrs when she was almost ready to leave, h called and said that s would like to spend the afternoon here. i was delighted - as i hadn't seen him since i came back from my trip, and that was the first time i was out of town during this sitch.
so s came over and i just decided to do some stuff with him - i could feel a really strong need for him to be close to me- he even wrapped his arms around me while h was here , which is unusual. after h left, it seemed as if every few minutes he wanted a hug or to stay really close. so i decided that we should do something fun on the knitting machine together and he just loved it. we had such a great time. after that we hung out together just cuddling for almost an hour - he still didn't seem reassured, and then finally he felt it enough to go play in his room and do his own stuff.
seems like he wants to come here every afternoon, and i just said to him that it was okay. today h called again and seemed really pained at having to ask me again - and i just said it was fine, and that the only day i couldn't do it this week was wednesday
i'm staying friendly and co-operative. inside, i've given up, have no expectations of anything - even a civil conversation!! and surprise - all the conversations have been friendly . in fact yesterday he acted out a bit of a funny movie for s and i that made us really laugh - watching him, i realized that was the first time he tried to make us laugh or even said something funny around the 2 of us together.
i know i have really let go a lot - yesterday he was friendly and chatty and stayed for quite a while when he dropped s off and also when he picked him up. today the exact opposite - barely in the house for a minute - not growling and abrupt, but reluctant to stay for very long.
in the past - i would have felt that so strongly and been disappointed and wanted to "do" something - today i didn't really care - just sort of noticed it from a distance.
seems as if it's better to just mirror his mood - if he's more forthcoming then join in casually, if he's pulled back, give him his space. i have also finally accepted that going dim or dark and doing the whole mysterious thing and setting big strong boundaries that "show" him that we are separated has really fired back on me all these months.
i had to do it because i was such an emotional mess, but now, when i am not, it is easier to just allow whatever it is that;s happening ,see him frequently and not be affected by it. i know i couldn't do that before, but it seems as if i can do it better now
i've finally found the strength within myself to start turning away from h and what he's about, toward myself and what i'm about. i know that it won't all be smooth going, but instead of using all my patience on the sitch i'm going to start using most of it on myself.
i heard this the other day:
"when you are in a good place within yourself, you never leave anything, you just go somewhere else"
i think that is truly what detachment is about - not a reaction or a decision, just a turning to other things, something more fulfilling, something that makes you feel good about yourself, somewhere where you are just okay..
i've decided to find out what that somewhere else is for awhile - within myself...
zig
it's sad, now when i've taken h off the pedestal, so to speak, to really see how he can be.
had to call him about the invite list. his general attitude is really forceful - sort of along the lines of "everyone is just f'ing going to do it the way i think it should be done!" tone of voice.. i'm so NOT getting caught up and reacting to that, just sort of patiently responding with that's fine.
it seems to work, because then his voice relaxes a bit and he discusses details, then suddenly gets abrupt and as soon as i hear the shift in his voice i say ok great talk to you later and end the call
s had to call me back so i could ask him something about how to use the on line invitation site, and he was in the middle of explaining it to me, when i hear this loud obnoxious groan sound in the background (they were driving) - obviously h's voice. i asked s calmly - is that your dad getting upset because you're explaining this stuff to me. and he replied yes. so i just quietly said to s, don't worry about it i'll figure it out on my own.
it's really off putting - h absolutely does not want to deal with it, insists i do it, but doesn't want to be hassled with us figuring out how to do it. after i got off the phone with s and did the head count (30 adults and 22 kids - i said it was a big bash!), my first thought was - what on earth are we into here?
first of all i don't think we can afford it and secondly - if we can't play frisbee together for 20 mins how on earth does he think we are going to cook for all these people together and host a party from 2 pm to midnight.
this is going to require some serious patience on my part!
in the first convo he sort of blurted out - s is really excited about the party, in this rather strange intense voice. i wish i had waited quietly - i may have lost the chance that he was trying to say something. instead i just said yes he is, without thinking. maybe he's getting stressed about it now, and can hardly get out of it.
frankly it's his own problem - his parents got s excited about still having it the same old way as before - months ago!
interesting little detail - he wanted to take the people who didn't know about our separation off the list!!
i think when he hears the head count, it's going to freak him out. i'm just going to stay quiet and let him decide what to do. frankly i don't really care about the details - (see - i REALLY don't feel like controlling) and would much rather he and s decided everything - less for me to think about. i just plan to be there and quietly do what i am really good at, show my love and support for our s and our friends.
it might sound like i'm letting him do the run around on me, but from where i'm standing now, it doesn't feel like that, because suddenly all i can see is him digging his own hole (while he's cursing and kicking) and me sitting at my sweet little picnic with my back to it (the hole that is and him, too!).
i feel so calm right now - a couple of weeks ago this would have been enough to send me over the edge completely!!! i think it was hearing that groan - just wanted to take myself away from the source of it.
off to the grocery store, get myself some dinner - too lazy and hot to cook tonight
zig
if any of you have some feedback or advice about this crazy scenario - would appreciate it. if s wasn't so upset at the idea of not having the same kind of party as always, i wouldn't touch this with a 10 ft. pole!!
What about adding a potluck feature to the party? That way it won't be as expensive, take as much work, and would hopefully be less stressful.
hey thanks unbidden - that's a great idea - actually didn't think about it at all. it is a bit strange since it's a b'day party, but why not!
i'll run it by h tomorrow. have a feeling it will be a big fat no! but hey, no expectations either way
hope you're doing well
thanks
zig
i just came back from an appointment with IC.i was expecting to feel good, instead i'm back in a difficult place.
after hearing about the b'day party and how h has been behaving - she was a bit appalled - she thought it was a really bad idea to host a big bash together . the hour ended with her basically telling me that i need to figure out what to do - that she thought it was all of us enabling him - by letting him give the impression that everything was okay.
i have waffled through the night - going back and forth, and trying to do it was calmly as i can.
she thought it was bizarre that he wanted to do it in the first place - something that meant a lot to us all these years.
1. do i just take this as an opportunity to do something positive together - is it positive?
2. do i let him know my real feelings: "h, i actually don't want to do this because i don't really want to do something like this with you, while we are in this sitch"
3. just stay quiet and co-operative, and allow him to do what he thinks he wants to do, and let him figure out the difficulties on his own - in other words, not bring my feelings into the equation at all.
i guess my dilemma here is, do i stand up for my own needs or put s's needs in front of mine.
s wants this party - for whatever reason - most probably as an indicator that everything hasn't changed. and i just want to move ahead into really living this separation.
can't help thinking that when h feels like it, he wants to do something together - like go on the boulder school trip, and then he chooses to withdraw and go ahead with whatever he wants to be doing.same with the party.
in the context of db'ing and finding the right solutions, is it more solution oriented to just go with what they want to do, when they are willing (no matter what there motives may be, or can be interpreted as), or to lean more towards just separating more fully?
i can't help thinking that i am being tested here - in some way by him. i can't figure out what the test is. there have been a lot of small hints recently - him insisting i do little things his way - as if he is really trying to find out if i am listening to him. things that he shouldn't even be concerned about - like which bedroll i use on a camping trip.
since that was one of his biggest grievances, that he didn't feel heard and i never listened to what he wanted - i find myself leaning toward , just listening to how he wants to do it, and saying okay and just going with it.
is my resistance here more about not feeling in control? that the picture in my mind that i want to see is both of us deciding together, not just being told. but if i look back, i can see how i tended to do that with him - only difference that i didn't growl it at him
sigh - these invites should be sent out by now. and i have this urge (questionable) whether i should talk it out honestly with him before hand or not.
when i recited a couple of the conversations recently with h to IC today, and asked her for advice on how to respond correctly so that we could really communicate - she said that his responses were typical of someone who 1. did not know how to begin to communicate and 2. did not want to learn how (iow, unwilling and unable).
oth, she said i was unable but willing - i don't know how to put my point across but was at least aware and willing to learn how to do it.
what a quandary!! i find myself realizing for the first time, that i have the same complaint that h does about me. i am scared and nervous to lay my real feelings out because experience has taught me that they will be rebuffed and rejected and pounced upon and totally dismissed. the sad thing is that h NEVER let me know his feelings, but STILL feels that i did that to him
so in this present situation, even though i want to tell him how i really feel about this party, i am too scared to do so....
can anyone help me see what my real dilemma is about here? is it just my ego, and wanting certain things, am i approaching it from the correct standpoint. i'm not trying to over analyze here - just trying to figure out what is me and what is too mixed and dysfunctional to make any sense of
tahnks
zig
You are so brave and I admire your introspection. If you son wants a party and you want to give your son a party, I would go ahead and do it. But, I would give him the kind of party you think you are capable of or want to-- even if that's different than what's been done in the past. Hey, it might even be better. I know exactly what you mean about being afraid to ask for what you want. I'm the same way. I also think that it's a form of low-grade abuse for our H's to contribute to our fear of speaking out with their attitudes. At some point, we have to draw a line in the sand and just say "no mas." I think that standing up to your H on this will be hard at first but will get easier each time. So I would find out what S really wants and then try to give him the core of that (even if you can't/don't give him the whole big shebang).
thanks unbidden - and no , i'm not brave - i feel downright cowardly right now.
i know what son wants - he wants the EXACT same party as before - not just with the kids , but with the adults too.
i had sent h a text this morning .all it said was "30 adults, 22 kids. okay?"
his reply: "sounds great"
sigh!!
i have to rush off now - got to drive an hour to go get finger printed for my US citizenship application.
will check in later. while i drive i'll think about what you wrote
thanks again
zig
It sounds like you were feeling pretty great about the whole thing and then you let your IC knock you off your stable platform.
here's my .02 (post DB coach session)
1. do i just take this as an opportunity to do something positive together - is it positive?
YES!!!! you keep wanting him to play frisbee but he wants to have a party instead. So don't be angry and how the positive memories can be formed together, instead roll with it and have fun.
2. do i let him know my real feelings: "h, i actually don't want to do this because i don't really want to do something like this with you, while we are in this sitch"
Pre-DB coach I would have said do what makes you feel most comfortable detach etc. Post I say stop trying to control when and how you want things to work. If you say that you're saying you may want to do something nice with friends and family but I'm saying no because you've moved out and you have a GF.
3. just stay quiet and co-operative, and allow him to do what he thinks he wants to do, and let him figure out the difficulties on his own - in other words, not bring my feelings into the equation at all.
I would say don't let yourself be taken advantage of..ie don't stay up for 48 hours straight cooking and faint from heat and exhaustion, but don't make this party into a metaphor of your relationship. IE all my feelings are put aside and you're calling the shots...either I take a stand or I'm walked on.
It's a party. It's supposed to be fun. So have fun. Show him (and yourself) and that you can be the life the party. Nothing is more attractive than looking across the room and seeing someone enjoying themselves, being entertaining, and a good host.
Sounds like great advice :-)
well THANK YOU GIRL!!!
when you put it like that - easy peasy! in the hours in between , i went back to my original stance and decided to just stop waffling and stay there!!
the invites have gone out and now all i have to do is make the grande cake - i'll tell you guys about the cake later!!
just read your post about cheryl's phone call - really res'd with me. and even though i was leaning that way - but not quite sure: assume the good. when i read that, i just let it go.
everything you wrote is BANG ON!!! as in completely bang on. and you are sooooo right - here i am wanting to do a little thing like play frisbee - and i can't see the big thing he's offering - the whole damn party!!
so coach - thanks - oh and here's a little gift for you - just 3 days ago, i finally capitulated and bought a meditation cd that i'd known about for a couple of months.
so i downloaded it, and have done it several times since and it is AMAZING! i don't know if we are really allowed to post links but it's on the Abraham Hicks site, meditation cd - you can buy an instant down load and it costs about 15 bucks, and it is transformative.
it has taken me from being (as you all know) downright nutty to chilled out. i should add that for the last couple of months i was using a free version off youtube which i have mentioned here before that really chilled me out, but this is way past that!! it's based on law of attraction, and i can't tell you how effective it is. she advises in the user manual (which you'll get as a pdf, to do it 15 mins a day, but elsewhere i read that you can do it as many times as you like and even put it on before going to sleep - i did that last night and slept amazingly well).
the other thing that i have started doing is really special to me. after labug mentioned Melody Beatties' meditation book, which i got from the library, i also found one by her called "45 days to a miracle" (heck ,i'll try anything right?
well it was a different type of miracle than i was expecting. the book is really worth reading and i started following her suggestions of making a specific kind of list everyday. the "miracle is what happens inside you when you do that. i started a week ago - and it has helped me enormously in letting go, not being so affected by what is going on around me and also in resolving and helping myself work through my own issues and things i need to work on within myself. it's actually amazing what following her suggestions results in. i've never been able to calm myself and start to see more clearly. also it helps you to really define your feelings on what ever you're dealing with
so hope this helps someone else. the effect on me in just a week has been enormous.
thanks again brit - and a big ((( ))) . i am so definitely hooking up with you somewhere sometime in real time!!
off to do my little meditation and then big GAL tonight - me and girl friend are going out to eat and drinks. she's the one who offered me and s to move to france with them - first time we are hanging out together just her and me - so i am excited to really have a great conversation with her tonight about all kinds of stuff.
oh and fun times - at the immigration office (which is usually a stare you down look "are u a terrorist maybe" atmosphere - the moment i walked in - i was literally surrounded by the security guys who practically flirted and chatted with me for 15 mins on the way in. as i was leaving they said hey don't go, we want to hang out and talk some more. couldn't believe it!! my vibes are great these days - i know that - but that was over the top!! i had a lot of fun with them and actually a great conversation about india!!
Glad you liked what I had to say. I do have a bit of a different outlook on things now. So I hope it rubbed off I do have a lot to share...I will say that the DB coach was in favor of ML. so there's that. I don't have a lot of time right now and don't know when I will I'm so busy.
when did this happen! LOL I will check out that meditation CD you suggested.
I think the ML (or is it just plain having sex? a ONS) is confusing. Can you have sex with the person you love and want back in your life with no expectation?
I don't have the answer, it's just a question.
I have issues with that as well. I don't think it's for me.
Agreed - it's just a question/possible 180 to be considered. I considered it, and it doesn't work for me. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be appropriate for someone else. I do my 180s/GAL in other places in the meantime.
brit, labug, vera - thanks
i agree - when we talked about it last week - i thought about it for a couple of days - and actually realized - that the way h is right now - he's not attractive to me.
also ml is so different from having sex - and i don't know if i can do the second, at least not with him. one big issue is that he isn't using protection with ow - so i would want him to get tested first
i know why he acts so pained and painful around me - he told me several times in the first few months ( and it really surprised me every time, because i didn't expect anything). he said it's completely agonizing for him to be around me for even a few minutes because he wants so badly to touch me and ml. early on he let the 3 of us go canoeing one day, and he behaved like an angry boar the entire time, after we came back to the house and before we left he managed to tell me what the reason was - "i was in agony - i couldn't get ml'ing with you out of my mind for one minute" . it was almost as if he's mad at himself and even more at me for having those feelings. sad..
we admitted to each other (him first) around month 3 of the sitch that in the weeks of talking and crying together after the bomb drop that we both fell in love with each other more deeply than the first time around. but after those words, he still added - but i can't be with you right now, and i just have to pursue this thing with ow.
so the only way for me to look at it is, for some reason (and i believe that there definitely IS an intuitive process going on with the WAS on some level), his instinct is compelling him to stay away - until he sees something within himself or me that shows him it's okay to come back.
another thing that really stuck out that he said one day was 'i feel too vulnerable with you, i feel too exposed" . after just reading the first chapter of how to improve.. i can hopefully start to have a better understanding of what he really means
i don't know where he's at really lately. the pessimistic hopeless side of me can't imagine that he has feelings for me anymore - if he does, he hides them so well. but there is no doubt that he is too aware of me. he's definitely not indifferent, in fact the total opposite
one of these days i should make a list of all the things i've done wrong during the db'ing and find a way to reverse my position on them. things that i've said, boundaries that i've made that i see now after all this time keep him driven away
but not today. today i'm going to concentrate on getting myself grounded - s comes back tomorrow after the longest he's been away and i need to get my head back into parent mode - find myself really a bit too aware of the one week on, one week off thing and how i struggle with it.
hope you all have a great day
zig
I think the ML (or is it just plain having sex? a ONS) is confusing. Can you have sex with the person you love and want back in your life with no expectation?
I don't have the answer, it's just a question.
I can answer that. In my case, in the beginning, I think I had huge expectations. Now, I feel it's a good thing for both of us. I still get small expectations but I talk myself through and out of them. I look at it now as two people who love each other (we have both confirmed this), trying to find their way, and enjoying physical intimacy. Maybe it will turn into more, maybe not.
I guess it depends on what the people involved can handle.
I look at it now as two people who love each other (we have both confirmed this), trying to find their way, and enjoying physical intimacy.
that's a great way to look at it and so glad that both of you can feel like that.
when i read that, i felt some sort of hope that maybe h and i could do the same..if he and i agreed about it in the same way. i so much miss the intimacy we had
but i don't know - we'll see. right now, i feel as if i just need to let things go along . he's been aggressive in a strange way lately as i mentioned before - i don't know if it's a reaction to me trying to change things in the dynamics between us or something else. i feel as if i just need to hang back and see how this party goes next week.
i'm going through so much internal upheaval myself as so much stuff is rising up from deep inside, that it's all i can do to get basic things done each day
thanks for telling us how you work it ss - it helps to hear a totally different take on it
i bit the bullet and just did it!
called and bought 3 appointments with a db coach!
i got Joann and my first appointment is already tomorrow evening.
i can't really afford it - but at the same time feel it's really worth a try. i need some solid advice on how to steer through this. i'm going to sell some shawls to take care of it
zig
Seriously, I'll take one. Let me know where you sell your wares.
good luck, zig. i think you can't go wrong because it will help you to hear what she has to say and help with some of the anxiety (as we all have that). afterall, she's heard so many sitches and will be able to give you the benefit of her, and other's, experiences!
Good luck zig. It really does make a difference!
Happy for you zig! You will defintly feel better after. I like the way they shift thru the BS and then say this is what you should do. I have to admit an hour or so later I was like I have no idea if this is really what I think is a good idea and then a couple of hours later I was like this makes perfect sense. And today I got to use it...in an organic way.
They will help you with what you're putting too much emphasis on and what you need to highlight too.
sign me up for a shawl!
Zig, I couldn't really afford it either, but gave into the impulse and just called. I think you'll get some advice on whether what you're doing is working or not (not saying they are or aren't), and what you should keep doing. <----This for me was the best part, because I was feeling like nothing I was doing was the right thing. Keep us posted on how it goes!
Agree with Ro and the money was worth it!
unbidden, ss, busting, brit, RoRo
thanks so much for your enthusiastic support.
unbidden and brit - your offers to buy a shawl. cripes, when i read them, i fell apart - started sobbing! at first i didn't even know why i was crying so hard - yes i know hardly the reaction one expects when someone offers to buy your shawls!! no, i don't usually do that, grin.
but what came up afterwards was interesting - especially since your offers triggered off this awareness in me - and so it was a double gift from you both.
the emotion that came up was a inner protest - how could they offer that, i'm not worthy of such incredible generosity . and then as i worked through it - the deeper truth - that i don't feel worthy - that i've never felt worthy of the gifts in my life - and of course - there's another thing to work on - really hard.
i AM worthy - even of incredible generosity from people i've never even met.i am worthy and deserving to be happy, to want my marriage to work out, to want my work to be successful, to be deserving of love and support and on and on
so to say that i was touched - is beyond what words can say - to offer to buy my shawls, when you guys are scraping together to pay for your own coaching sessions - well, there's a generosity of heart that's seldom experienced.
and i feel worthy enough to say thank you.
don't feel obliged to buy - especially if they are not your style.
my dilemma though is posting how you can get them. i've just started my store on etsy (type in shawlsbyzia), but my prices are much higher there, and i would prefer to sell to you through my email as i have already been doing for months - as i can give you the price i sell them at locally. its gmail with the same name as above, all one word. also that way you can custom choose what you want
so whichever you would like - if you want to stay anonymous, you could just open a temporary account with the same name you use here - that way i'll know who you are - then i'll email you pics and you can choose - you can also look at them on the etsy site.
feel a bit weird writing all that here- as if i'm soliciting - which i hope no one thinks is intentional. mods - please let me know if this is totally not okay! i apologize in advance if it's not
thanks again all of you. i hadn't realized how many had used a coach - there's not too much reference to it in the posts
zig
update -
so h agreed to go play frisbee - when i said there were going to be others there. but when he called to confirm, and i had to say that i hadn't heard back from the others, he got squirmy, so i just said how about i pick up son and go. he gave me a bunch of reasons why he couldn't, including that he was getting sick. i just replied - oh i didn't really expect you to go anyway
so s and i went, we stopped by at his classmates house and the twins and their dad came out and joined us and we had a blast. i was so proud - i ran and caught a throw that was almost impossible. the dad who's a veteran frisbee player was really impressed,so i was stoked!!
when we got back to h's to drop s off, i told s - let's go in and decide the menu for the dinner. h was sitting at the table working on the floor plans for the building permit. i just casually plonked myself down -(total 180 - i've barely gone into that house) - and was just very relaxed and friendly.
he responded well. and seemed really relaxed (i was looking for signs of tension, but there didn't seem to be any) , and talked about the house and then we talked about the cake and the menu.
he tried getting a bit growly at first over the cake. and i just said - how about we just wipe out all past memories of the cake and just approach it in a different way. i proposed that we should all participate. at first he was adamant that we should do it exactly as before (his latest fixation) and i just said, well i don't want the whole burden of the cake on me. how about if i bake the cake parts and all the fillings and then the 3 of us put it together, i actually said that we could really use his architectural expertise for a change.
he agreed. i have no expectations that he will actually do it, and don't care either way, but if he does i'm going to focus on it being a really positive, fun experience for the 3 of us.
then s started getting really tired and we both tried to tell him to get in the shower, and he absolutely insisted that he wouldn't until i left. we asked him why and he kept saying he didn't want to miss anything. he actually got teary-eyed, and i had to comfort him by saying it was okay and that i would leave - even though i did want to sit there just with h for a couple of mins. well s is the db'er here, because that would have not been so good probably!!
so i'm barely back home 10 mins and h calls. have you seen s's inhaler. i was a bit taken aback at the question. is it at your house? s has been at his house for a week now.
i handled it really well - in the past i would have freaked. he kept saying , between sniffing and blowing his nose, that he felt really stupid calling me and letting me know about his ineptitude (he actually used that word!) , and i think i handled it just the right way - because then he "confessed" all the other things he had messed up during the week taking care of s. all i said was, well you have a lot on your plate, you're getting sick and don;t be too hard on yourself. (that last was the phrase he always said to me - it seemed to work. i observed that he was sounding sicker by the minute, and he admitted that he felt lousy)
mil stopped by this evening and we chatted for awhile. she told me that h is really badly strung out - everything with rebuilding his house is not going well and he keeps running into one problem after the other.
she also told me that when he had come to tell them about ow being in town - he had been incredibly stressed. she asked him why he was so stressed and he said that this second trip of her coming here (the other times he's gone to visit her) was different. she asked how so, and he replied well it's really hard to keep this secret, i can't introduce her to anyone and we have to hide and it's very stressful.
so brit - i'm taking your coach's advice - just to be friendly and relaxed and not try to prethink everything i'm going to say and be. i'm just going to be myself around him. while we were sitting at his house - i told him about my crazy good catch and how psyched i was, and he genuinely seemed to enjoy hearing about it. i also asked if i could join them in making the party piñata - he and s always make this crazy huge one. i'm just gently trying to see if i can get us to do things together that we always did separately with s. of course with no expectations that it will actually happen.
on another note - i am crazy nervous about talking to this coach tomorrow. i am such a babbler, and i'm afraid i won't be able to stick to the most important facts that i should let her know about and will waste my time. the last 10 months have started to blur in my mind - and frankly i don't have the energy to go through my past threads to make sure i remember to tell her everything.
anyone, vets? have advice on what are the most important aspects to focus on so i get the most out of the session?
thanks for any advice
zig
on another note - i am crazy nervous about talking to this coach tomorrow. i am such a babbler, and i'm afraid i won't be able to stick to the most important facts that i should let her know about and will waste my time. the last 10 months have started to blur in my mind - and frankly i don't have the energy to go through my past threads to make sure i remember to tell her everything.
anyone, vets? have advice on what are the most important aspects to focus on so i get the most out of the session?
zig, count me in as one voting for the DB coach. I think you'll find it very helpful. I've had 12 sessions myself.
My suggestion would be to write down a list of things you want to talk about with your coach. Also, I suggest to be prepared to take notes. With this being your first session, you will probably be laying out the background on your story for the first part of the session. Maybe an outline of your situation would be helpful in being efficient in laying out this background.
thanks so much for your advice jb - i didn't realize you looked at my thread.
do you advise the outline being from when the bomb was dropped or including the whole marriage and after the bomb drop.
there are so many things that h felt were were wrong when he dropped the bomb, that frankly i'm finding now that it influenced me so much that i have a hard time seeing a clear picture of it myself.
i'll go start on my outline and the list of things i want to ask her.
wish i could figure out a way to tape the phone conversation. anyone have suggestions on how to do that?
thanks again
zig
I would suggest keeping it at a thumbnail sketch so speak. You can give the history before the bomb drop followed by what DB techniques you've tried, what's worked, what hasn't worked, etc. If you can keep it to 10-15 minutes maximum, it should give you some more time to work with.
I've never tried to record a conversation. It worked pretty well for me to write down questions, and then write the responses under them. I also took notes the whole time. I may have benefited from having a computer at my disposal so I could type my notes, but I did a lot sessions in the parking lot at work on my cell phone.
hey thanks jb - that helps me a lot to streamline how to go about it. sometimes i have a hard time picturing what is the most efficient direct way to go about things -left overs from the post concussion stuff, i think
really helpful of you.
thanks
zig
Oh zig - you will feel so much better after your call! Maybe not immediately, but once the advice and information sinks in a little. Like I told Brit - it's really an investment in yourself and your own sanity, and you can't really put a price on that, right?
I agree with having some questions listed out and a brief intro. If your coach needs more information, she will ask. Remember, solution-based coaching is not about delving into everything that's happened in the past but looking at what hasn't worked and trying to figure out what you can do next. I would start with a general timeline and H's complaints, and what you've done to address those complaints so far.
I highly recommend having a notebook just for DB purposes that you can keep tucked away, and write your notes in there. I'm not sure you'd want to record the sessions - there could be legal issues there (consent, etc). I take copious notes and then go back after the call to fill in where I couldn't finish a sentence or thought so that I don't forget it. Have a few pens handy, too. If you're faster at typing, maybe take the call and type your notes out.
I would definitely make sure to ask about how you're handling the party since that is the most immediate thing you have going on right now. From what you've described it seems like you're doing a really good job with that!
PS your shawls are BEAUTIFUL!!!
oh vera - your post reassured me so much this morning.
and thanks for the compliment about my shawls - so pleased you like them:)
Like I told Brit - it's really an investment in yourself and your own sanity, and you can't really put a price on that, right?
^^^^ That! was the thing i needed to hear right now. last night and this morning i've been focused on how can i paint a good enough accurate pic in about 15 mins so joann can help me right away to turn things around.
that was the wrong attitude!! it's about me and how i can handle this better for myself - to just be nudged onto the right track so that i am not so anxious about everything
Remember, solution-based coaching is not about delving into everything that's happened in the past but looking at what hasn't worked and trying to figure out what you can do next
i am a little lost here in terms of telling her what has worked or not worked. i can't tell anything that's worked - because lately he has withdrawn so much, and where as we used to at least talk before, now he's quit almost completely. lately he has become so skittish, that i have to stay really backed off hard.
i will make sure to ask about the party. and whether my "no resistance to anything going on" is the best way to go.
thanks so much for describing how you did it - i didn't realize that you had had coaching sessions. too. are you still doing them? how often do you set up an appointment?
last night i skimmed through some of my earlier threads and posts and also read a bit of the journal that i had kept for the first few months. lots of surprises there. i saw how i had been much stronger earlier, and realized that as this sitch has continued and he has kept on with ow, getting a bit bolder each time, i have not reacted so well inside myself.
made me realize that i need to go back and read my threads and see where i was at - the last few weeks i have been a lot off kilter than i was before.
what really stunned me is what i wrote in the journal in the first weeks - i had "got it" then already , what i had to do and how i had to do it, but my own insecurity allowed me to get so pulled in by his antics that i became more and more uncentered over the months
when you refer to general timeline - do you mean after the separation started or from when we met?
thanks again vera
zig
i am a little lost here in terms of telling her what has worked or not worked. i can't tell anything that's worked - because lately he has withdrawn so much, and where as we used to at least talk before, now he's quit almost completely. lately he has become so skittish, that i have to stay really backed off hard.
^that's fine to say. I was speaking more generally. You can just tell her what you've done and what happened in response to that. She'll be able to guide you to further suss everything out. Trust the process
I did my 3 sessions, just finished this week. I ended up doing 6 weeks between the 1st and 2nd, and then 1 month between the 2nd and 3rd, but how often you do yours will depend on your situation. I scheduled mine around "events" that happened (1st one before a vacation, 2nd one right after H filed, 3rd one a little while after I'd been served). I don't have any immediate plans to do more but that could change. (We're in the midst of the 90-day cooling off period before anything can be finalized. Cheryl & I talked about what it would take for me to feel like I saw some change b/c he still wants to be friends, and I am left only with him putting the brakes on the D process/house sale. So for now I'm just monitoring the situation.) Obviously every situation is different. Your coach will be able to help you navigate things especially with your S involved.
Be sure to report back and let us know how it goes
thanks again vera - really appreciate all of you supporting me here
that's what i am telling myself - you made the call, not trust that she will know what to ask and you will give the correct answer. that i know my sitch and i don't have to remember it all at once!!
h brought s over an hour ago .. he wanted to borrow the lawn mower and offered to mow as he always does. i've adamantly refused all these months. today i just let him. didn't make a deal of it at all.
when he stopped to say bye before he left i thanked him and said what a luxury to have you do it,
told him theres' a block party downtown that s and i are going to with our friends. didn't ask if he wanted to come. he said himself, maybe i'll join you guys. i just replied, i'll text you the details when she lets me know.
didn't expect him to say that - was just giving the info - he's done that when he's known about something
so i t was a 180 for me to let him do something here at the house. also had to tell him my car was giving trouble and i have to take it in. i was a bit concerned as i have to drive 2 hrs on monday . he offered that we could trade out cars on sunday so i could take his truck. i just said great. inside i'm quaking a bit, because i've only driven his truck a couple of times and it's a stick shift. damn i'm brave!!
hope you guys all have a great day
off to work w/ the intern
zig
hey mods -
i know i'm due for a new thread here, but i'd like to start it after my coaching session this evening, so if you could leave this one unlocked until then, i'd really appreciate it
thanks
zig