Swimming with the Turtles - DivorceBusting.com

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so how did turtles land up on my thread.

yesterday, a bit dazed and relaxed on painkillers after having my tooth pulled, i asked s if instead of finishing his room we could just be a bit lazy and watch a movie. We don't watch TV, just the occasional movie or documentary and it's pretty special for us. (have to add, the old me would have been tough and busted ass getting things done)

he was delighted and i asked him to choose. he chose the most beautiful movie - Turtles - it was the life story of a loggerhead turtle.

so it started with the turtles being born on the beach and heading to the water under considerable duress. then their long trip across the ocean,and the beginnings of their trials - which were pretty hard, because of human's influence on the seas. then i fell asleep - really hard.

s woke me up (i had asked him to) and as i turned over and opened my eyes - it was to the most serene gorgeous peaceful scene of these beautiful huge turtles just hanging out at the bottom of the ocean. their trials and tribulations were over , they had made it through (not many compared to how many hatched) and now got to enjoy years of peaceful existence at the bottom of the ocean.

their only job left was to make one of the longest journey's on the planet back to where they were born to lay their eggs. the journey was smooth and without incident.

i'm heading to that place in my mind - equivalent to where the turtles got to after their arduous start. i can't help seeing the analogy and potential in my situation to be in that beautiful serene place.

so my goal is to swim with turtles in my mind - i've made it through the hardest part, and now i can look forward to the peaceful serene place that i know i deserve to be in.

i hope all of you can join me there. it's where we all deserve to be:)

zig

hey verb - i don't know how to post to you without a reply thingie , until you post - hope fully you'll see my new thread

as for going overboard - that was before i found this site and read the books. i had been on another site that advised to just act as if you were fine with it.

sort of the equivalent of - if they want to divorce you , help them by contacting your lawyer. if they want you to leave, help them pack.

did i get it wrong?

i'm not feeling all panicky at the thought of getting it all wrong.

but if anyone has thoughts on how EXACTLY to act about the ow - the counterintuitive DB stuff, then i sure could use some advice before this conversation takes place.

how i feel is, i would be very cautious until i knew that it was over from the horse's mouth. what i've worked through for a large part is the sense of hurt and betrayal and being let down. what i've understood is that h is human and has his flaws just like the rest of us and that i could forgive it.

what i don't know is that if we ever have to bring her up, in the near future, what i should "act as if"

could really use some help here

thanks
zig

oh sorry forgot to link to my old threads

most recent:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2245906&page=1

www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2236613&page=1

www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2224301#Post2224301

www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2236678&page=1

By the time I get a chance to read through your last thread and respond as appropriate, the point may be moot...

So I just wanted to say that both work AND GAL are the reasons for my intended absence. As much as I enjoy messing up all'y'all's heads, it was keeping me from my own life...

So here's the things I want to say:

I understand working from home at one's own business. Some people can compartmentalize that stuff really well... others... not so much...

so here is the part you may not like and try to give reasons why not...

You need to get S to a baby sitter's anyhow...

So that you can job hunt if / as you may see fit... or you can work... OR... when you feel like coming here or just hanging with your S... you actually go out and GAL!

Just as you must schedule work as necessary...

You MUST schedule GAL!

Sorry, you can't work 12 hours a day, spend 6 more hours a day being a mom... and not GAL...

And not sure if this was part of the question or what was the rest of your thread, yet...

You S should have extremely limited time with OW UNLESS your H is planning on M her (put a ring on her finger and set a date).

You cannot control how your H and OW interact (lovey dovey and all that) and consider how confusing that might be for him (his mom and dad are M but his dad is being loving with some other woman who is not his family). It won't send a very good message to your S for your S's future relationships...

Anyhow... gotta get to sleep...

thanks KD - but didja read my post. he is going to some efforts to NOT have that happen - either with his family or s. that is contact with ow.

as for the baby sitting for s and your observations on me having enough time to GAL - you're bang on, there - i have to set some boundaries about how much s is here during the summer. i didn't think of it that way - i've volunteered freely all my time with s, and taken him at the drop of a hat. i think i really need to do a 180 there.

what holds me back a bit (less than before) is that when i say no to taking s, i feel as if i'm letting s down and not being completely there for him. can you help me see it from another perspective please?

i may not have to even do much here in terms of where s is this summer- s let us know indirectly today that he's planning to attend h's summer course which runs from 8.30 to 1.30 everyday all through june. h and i are very amused about it - it's a university level course and he just announced that he was going to go with h everyday - and today was the first day. he introduced himself along with the other college students very seriously and then proceeded to do all the assignments that h gave the students.

on the other hand , he is 10, and could change his mind after a few days. but who knows. there seems to be a very determined side emerging in him these last few weeks - a sort of - "there are certain things i want to do and i'm going to just do them" - kind of like his dad, i would say.

i need to go catch some winks myself, but tomorrow i am going to try and sit down and outline my "strategy" and hope i can get some feedback on what i'm doing right and not so right.

thanks KD - i totally understand your need to step away - you and so many others spend what seems to be an inordinate amount of time on the boards helping us all out - and i for one am deeply grateful.

zig

ok, good about H understanding that S should not be around OW much...

I struggled with taking the kids every moment I could... and then I realized... they are already going to be messed up from this... me smothering and requesting or taking all the time with them is not good for them, for me, nor for my W...

and believe me, the "limited" time I have with the kids according to the SA is horrid... but every moment I am with the kids, I do my best to be the best dad I can be. I know that will be a positive affect on them.

Your S needs to spend time with his dad. Your S needs to spend time without either parent... your S needs to be 10... if he's always with you, he may try to take on the role of surrogate H... that's not good...

So do it because it is emotionally healthy for S... because it already sux... he just needs stability and the ability to be a kid...

make sense?

I love your post about the turtles! I want to watch that movie now!

thanks brit - it's on instant watching on netflix

enjoy!!

Turtles are the best!! I like that you're thinking of the journey like that

Thanks KD - after reading your post, i realized that maybe i have not painted the picture clearly enough.

i believe that has to do with my own emotions running so high, and my terribly long posts.

Your S needs to spend time with his dad. Your S needs to spend time without either parent... your S needs to be 10... if he's always with you, he may try to take on the role of surrogate H... that's not good...

s spends time with his dad: every other week for the whole week except when h is 1)working/meetings or seminars or 2 )is with ow

s spends quite a bit of time on playdates - both at my house and at his friends houses. i also make sure that he gets alone time with h's parents, whom he is very close to. they come and pick him up and take him out or to their place, especially on the week he's with me. they don't seem to ask h to do that, only me. he has recently started going there more frequently with s - for many months it seemed as if he was avoiding them too, but that seems to have changed recently.

as for surrogate h - i saw it started right in the first weeks after the S - and i talked to s and made it very clear that I was the one who was going to take care of him and me, not him, that it wasn't his job on any level. i haven't seen any signs of it at all. once he understood that, he reverted back to his usual ways and comes to me for comfort when he needs it. i do allow him to show me how to use some of the equipment - things like the mower or the compressor, which he's very proud to do, but it's clear that it's my role to take care of stuff and take care of myself and him.

the reason that i have taken on and agree to taking s as much as i can is the following:

in the first months after h moved out - i absolutely did not offer to take s even once when he was with h. but then i started noticing that since h had other stuff to do, in the evenings, he started to leave s all over the place - mostly at his son's friends houses, and was picking him up and giving him dinner as late as 9. he had legitimate reasons - board meetings, seminars at the uni, work stuff

so i told h that i would rather he offered s to me or his parents, so that s was in a more family situation rather than at friends. i said that i would like first priority over having s before he went to friends, as i would like to see him as much as i could.

in some ways i've watched h sort of use that to his advantage a few times, but for the most part, i've just had s when he's working and then he's come right away to get him. and most of that time has been a playmate.

i think the only thing that's difficult for me, s and the rest of the family is that to us is seems that h blows s off - runs hot and cold. when he's there with s he's very present with him - extremely so, but when he's not - it's like s doesn't exist for him, especially when he's with ow. but there's a lot of inconsistency - sometimes contact everyday, sometime none for days

so that's the picture of what's going on, i think.

maybe another post later to describe what i have been doing to try to change things

zig

recently i decided that one of my short term goals (actually my only one!) would be to try and change the dynamics of the relationship between the 3 of us. i suggested to h that maybe we should be more flexible and that s can move more freely between us during each week. there had been this unspoken rule all these months that when s is here , he's mine and when he's with h he's only h's.

h has wanted to keep things very very separate. the result turned out not to be so good and i think he's realized it now. s's response was to be 2 different people - he was his original self the week he was here, and then this other kid the week he was with h

i'm waiting to see how it works out - i want to say that h seems to like it and seems more relaxed with it, and even appreciative - but ow's trip did just coincide with it.

i think - and i know that it maybe considered mind reading - but i've started to wonder whether h has felt so guilty about taking s away from me that he feels he has no right to s when it's my time with him. i will say that in the beginning i was so deeply torn up about being separated from s in that way, that i was a mess and h was agonized by that. i'm in a very different place now, and have worked through that and actually feel pretty alright and independent of s's physical presence or absence here.

so the summer plan which isn't concrete yet - i have suggested that s moves more freely between the 2 houses - and is a bit with both of us almost everyday no matter which house he's at.

this may NOT be considered good DB'ing - and i'm probably going to get an earful from everyone - but it's part of my dropping the rope, the way i see it. it's also an attempt to allow s to become more consistent in his personality, because then he'll have to settle into one as he moves back and forth.

i'm trying something different, because i've been sensing that me keeping s to myself is being interpreted as resistance to h, and defensiveness.

what will be interesting to see is whether h actually does it _he's sort of agreed verbally. because that would require a lot more contact (i'm not sure how i feel about that) and some more commitment on his part, where he has to be ready to arrange things on a daily basis, rather than put them off for days at a time.

i'm not pressuring him to do this. i just threw it out there casually, and the only thing i've done after that is text him last friday saying "if you want to hang out with s, just call" i was surprised that he did and came over and took s for a couple of hours. i could see that he felt really good and so did son (agape?) and only later i found out that ow was here.

so that made me feel funny - i felt a bit misled and that i may have inadvertently given him an opportunity to feel like he could have it all - s's company and her around?

then i found myself thinking - why don't i look at it from another perspective (and anyone can whack me here if i'm not getting it) . by allowing that, could i possibly have given h an opportunity to feel good about something I did, while he was with ow? it meant a lot to him to be with s - in spite of what he says, i think that is when he misses s the most.

so that's part of the plan

any thoughts, anyone

thanks
zig

My question: Have you asked S how he feels about this?

hmmm, labug - you got me there!

actually, i have to admit that while i was writing that last post, it did pop into my mind.

i will do that.

gosh, i just feel like i'm screwing up all over the place

thanks for pointing that out to me

It's not screwing up, it's and opportunity for growth.

yes you're right -

it's weird - but only now when i am starting to detach am i really beginning to see how i function, and the patterns i use in a much deeper way than ever before. it is helping me a lot to see where i screw up with both of them, and how i still control on this very subtle level. i'm doing it again , in some way here aren't i?

on the other hand, i don't know how to find the balance between me setting boundaries about how h arranges our life with s, where i have some say in the matter as opposed to him deciding whenever he wants to.

i guess my present solution was to drop the rope on that and just let whatever happens happen.

i'm possibly over thinking this

Yeah, you're controlling it a bit.

I'm not living your life but it would seem that having set times would be better for you. You can then plan GAL activities as KD suggested. I work a job where I am on call and during those hours, my life does not belong to me. That's what you're describing sounds like to me.

Quote:

in the first months after h moved out - i absolutely did not offer to take s even once when he was with h. but then i started noticing that since h had other stuff to do, in the evenings, he started to leave s all over the place - mostly at his son's friends houses, and was picking him up and giving him dinner as late as 9. he had legitimate reasons - board meetings, seminars at the uni, work stuff

If this is still happening, so be it unless it's in some way putting S in danger.

Originally Posted By: labug

It's not screwing up, it's and opportunity for growth.

I like this ...

Originally Posted By: zig

gosh, i just feel like i'm having opportunities for growth all over the place

thanks for pointing that out to me

There, I fixed it for you

you guys are so sweet! i like how you fixed it for me. my negativity is really showing through, i know. i'm starting to see how much i still function from a very defensive place deep within myself

thanks labug - i guess i have it backwards then? by letting things be more open and relaxed, where we both get to spend more time with s without the restrictions of the schedule is actually me being controlling? i'm not being sarcastic here at a ll, and i really do appreciate very much that you are heeling me through this

i had thought that i was being less resistant - because i can't say that i have NOT been possessive of my limited time with s.

i'm trying to be more generous of my time with him - to maybe show by example to h that we can be kinder in this sitch to each other.

does the fact that i have noticed h liking the extra time with s, influence your thoughts on it at all.

maybe i should explain a bit.

a few weeks ago, when it was my turn with s, fil called and asked if s could come over because his sisters were in town and really wanted to see s. i asked if h had seen them (h's aunts) and fil said yes he did already a couple of days earlier

do you not find it ridiculous on some level, that h felt he could not ask me to get s to go over for family stuff and his dad had to ask me as if i was doing everyone a favor by allowing it?

i DON'T want to be placed in that position. this was my solution to it. maybe i'm wrong and someone is going to tell me that yes keep it that way - let him see the reality of the sitch.

well the reality is that every one thinks i'm so controlling that his family always asks my permission before they ask h. even his sister only asked me if she could come for s's birthday. i ask them why they are asking me and shouldn't they be asking h, and they insist that they want the answer from me not him

so am i controlling when i offer to open up the sitch and allow h more freedom with s, in a way in terms of time spent together?

i'm damned either way it seems - got to clear my head up from this for a bit - can't see the forest for the trees

maybe you guys can help me see it more clearly?

thanks
zig

Originally Posted By: zig

i had thought that i was being less resistant - because i can't say that i have NOT been possessive of my limited time with s.

Why do you think sticking to the agreement you've made makes you possessive? You can certainly be open to changes, but your time with S is your time with S.

Quote:

i'm trying to be more generous of my time with him - to maybe show by example to h that we can be kinder in this sitch to each other.

Are you being generous because that's what you want to do or because you want to teach a lesson?

Quote:

does the fact that i have noticed h liking the extra time with s, influence your thoughts on it at all.

Are you fixing things for H? Discounting yourself to make his life better?

Quote:

a few weeks ago, when it was my turn with s, fil called and asked if s could come over because his sisters were in town and really wanted to see s. i asked if h had seen them (h's aunts) and fil said yes he did already a couple of days earlier

do you not find it ridiculous on some level, that h felt he could not ask me to get s to go over for family stuff and his dad had to ask me as if i was doing everyone a favor by allowing it?

There's a lot of mindreading here. Do you see that?

How did you stop H from asking to have S visit?

Quote:

i DON'T want to be placed in that position. this was my solution to it. maybe i'm wrong and someone is going to tell me that yes keep it that way - let him see the reality of the sitch.

What position don't you want to be placed in?

Quote:

well the reality is that every one thinks i'm so controlling that his family always asks my permission before they ask h. even his sister only asked me if she could come for s's birthday. i ask them why they are asking me and shouldn't they be asking h, and they insist that they want the answer from me not him

Quote:

so am i controlling when i offer to open up the sitch and allow h more freedom with s, in a way in terms of time spent together?

Are you doing it to teach H a lesson?

Are you doing it to be seen as not controlling by his family?

Rally being honest about my motivations has been one of the most difficult thing I've had to because it's made me see a darker side of myself.

But I needed to shine a light on it to be able to change.

But asks all the best questions...you do have to really honestly look at your motives...

and also if the worst thing that happens is S has dinner at 9pm it's not the end of the world. You can't control the schedule when S is at H's. And if H always feels like his care of S isn't up to your standards and he's not doing it good enough...well I imagine that's not a feeling you want him to feel.

My son was born when I was a teenager. I went to a parenting class and they said don't scold the baby's father when he does things slightly wrong, don't badger him every two seconds about holding the baby perfectly. Make him feel like he's doing it perfectly. And I'll never forget the look on my son's aunt's face when his macho teenage dad changed his diaper. She was like he knows how to do that??? If you have legitimate concerns that S's safety is at risk that's one thing otherwise just practice letting go.

Originally Posted By: labug

[quote=zig]

Rally being honest about my motivations has been one of the most difficult thing I've had to because it's made me see a darker side of myself.

But I needed to shine a light on it to be able to change.

Thank you bug for this quote today. This is so true. For me, facing my own selfishness has been humbling.

I say I want what is best for my W, and yet I keep thinking about ways to pull her back to me bc, to be completely honest, I miss her and want what is best for me. I can tell myself that I believe it is best for her too but that is not my all or even most of my motivation. I know this about myself and it is part of why I am staying NC, I need to detach.

Not sure if my comments are meaningful to you at all, Zig, sorry for highjacking.

Love the new thread title..

Originally Posted By: labug

Originally Posted By: zig

i had thought that i was being less resistant - because i can't say that i have NOT been possessive of my limited time with s.

Why do you think sticking to the agreement you've made makes you possessive? You can certainly be open to changes, but your time with S is your time with S.

you're right , it is

Quote:

i'm trying to be more generous of my time with him - to maybe show by example to h that we can be kinder in this sitch to each other.

Are you being generous because that's what you want to do or because you want to teach a lesson?

actually because i wanted to be generous - especially to s. i can see him missing his dad and how delighted he was last friday to spend a couple of hours with him. also, we talk a lot here about how when we change it can/might instigate change in the other person. is that wrong to want? h has deliberately kept his life with s separate from my life with s for years. should i continue that pattern, in fact, as you suggest insist on it?

Quote:

does the fact that i have noticed h liking the extra time with s, influence your thoughts on it at all.

Are you fixing things for H? Discounting yourself to make his life better?

Quote:

There's a lot of mindreading here. Do you see that?

How did you stop H from asking to have S visit?

you're right, i was mind reading - i didn't prevent h from doing that, he chose not to on his own accord, and then fil asked at the last minute when he realized that his sisters would be leaving without getting to see s, if he didn;t call and ask me

Quote:

i DON'T want to be placed in that position. this was my solution to it. maybe i'm wrong and someone is going to tell me that yes keep it that way - let him see the reality of the sitch.

What position don't you want to be placed in?

Quote:

You can't control what they think of you.

All you can do is be aware of your motives, act from a true heart and do what's best for you and S.

If it's your time with S, why shouldn't they ask you and not H?

i can accept that, but when it comes to his birthday, sil didn't even know where s was going to be and didn't seem to want to find that out first.

Quote:

so am i controlling when i offer to open up the sitch and allow h more freedom with s, in a way in terms of time spent together?

Are you doing it to teach H a lesson?

GOOD GRIEF, NO - i honestly saw it as seeing how much he missed s and not wanting that for them. i suppose as i wrote that i realize that i'm trying to make things better for h and for s? at my own expense?

Are you doing it to be seen as not controlling by his family?

absolutely not - i was doing it to not feel that I WAS CONTROLLING

Rally being honest about my motivations has been one of the most difficult thing I've had to because it's made me see a darker side of myself.

actually - i think i'm beginning to realize that it's the opposite for me - i am so over giving - at the total expense of myself and what is good for me. it's odd, because in the process of answering your questions step by step, i realized that rather than this being some kind of manipulation on my part, what's coming to the surface for me is that even now during this horrendous sitch that h has created, i am still trying to GIVE to both of them out of the goodness of my heart at the expense of myself.

But I needed to shine a light on it to be able to change.

thanks labug. it's odd - my horoscope has been talking about this - not to give so much of myself that there is not the right things left for me.

yes your'e right - even in offering to take s, i was controlling what h decided to do with him after school.

that was in the beginning - then later it changed so that h set up his week so that he didn't have stuff in the evenings and i barely saw s. he did have the issue in jan when his teaching schedule changed and he had to teach until 5.30 and he asked if i would pick s up from school for those 2 days.

i happily agreed as then i got to see s during that week.

the first therapist i went to last august, told me to be as flexible as possible with s and h's schedule.

And if H always feels like his care of S isn't up to your standards and he's not doing it good enough...well I imagine that's not a feeling you want him to feel.

for sure - that's how i made him feel through the whole marriage - it really sucked what i did. and it's one of the first things i realized when i "woke up" with the bomb.

my big 180 has been never to question h about anything he has done with s at his house. not one thing. or even ask what they do. and whenever he does volunteer something about what they've done, i have responded really positively and said how wonderful it was.

.you do have to really honestly look at your motives...

if i were to be brutally honest - and this is the place to be that, i would say that for the longest time in the back of my mind i thought that getting h to come back was through s. so if i was "manipulating" or having misguided motives, i would say i was doing it then for those reasons.

i'm ashamed that i thought that way, now, and sad that i didn;t understand what that said about me. now i DON't feel like that and really understand that it's not about h coming back it's about BOTH OF US figuring it out together.

you know, i read other people's posts and they talk about how their WAS's call at random times to talk to their kids. ours is strange. there's this weird unspoken rule that we can only call s at bedtime to say goodnight. i think it's really sad that neither h nor i feel the freedom to call and talk to s when we would like to? i don't know if h would like to, but i would.

and also if the worst thing that happens is S has dinner at 9pm it's not the end of the world

yes i know - and i am so pleased that i have moved away from that kind of thinking. please understand - and i don't know if there are many of you out there who followed this way of parenting, but s was brought up with attachment parenting methods, as well as going to an alternative school with quite a different outlook on how kids are raised, compared to mainstream thinking. in that style, one focuses a lot on how the whole day goes, and stays away from disruptive evenings and bedtime schedules. we had very consistent schedules - and the reason i suggested it was because we could both see that s was much more tired than usual and it was getting to be a strain on him.

i will add - that it seems as if it was ME who chose all that - the parenting style etc - and h just went along with it, apparently. at least that was what i was given to understand at the time of the bomb. i bitched a lot if we didn't have dinner on time etc - i was so damned rigid - sigh!!

but the flexility that i have acquired and am able to practice now, is phenomenal compared to where i used to be. these issues don't come up for me any longer - and i will often have dinner with s really later myself.

i guess that i should point out that these were things in the early months of the sitch - in fact now, i would say i am the worse parent - letting s stay up late etc - - i've really learned to relax as a parent (and please take in the cultural differences too, i came from a world that raised children very differently from the way they are raised here - and sadly both h and i never considered that in our interactions)

so i guess i wrote way more than i warranted - but there it is.

i wonder if i am being defensive here.

i just feel a bit sad and hopeless right now - all of this discussion and trying to figure things out - all it shows me is how much i need to figure out myself and where i stand - i think that is the biggest work for me - it's not clear to me how all these things should be when one is confident , self secure and has good boundaries.

you're not hijacking at all need grace. i welcome everyones comments and discussion. i have so much to learn and there is much to learn in everyone else's comments

[censored] my posts are too long what is the deal with me, why can i not write more concisely?

just to add another layer - i described how i have been behaving with h - to my IC today - and she applauded me on staying consistent and friendly and pleasant NO MATTER WHAT h is doing.

she observed that even though he did a shameful thing last week, i stayed consistent. she thought that chastising him in any way would just be damaging. she also pointed out that if i could keep doing this in the face of all this, it would be the best thing for son. i described how i have offered that we are more flexible with s and she thought it was a great thing to do.

we talked about it in the context of agape, and i said how i felt that i was doing this from a place of love rather than because i wanted h to change his mind.

she also pointed out that h's warmer behavior yesterday was like a child who had known he had done something bad, and was coming back to check where i stood on the issue.

i asked her whether my continuing to be really nice and friendly in the face of that was enabling him to continue what he was doing. her answer was a bit obscure - she said you have 2 choices either to chastise him directly or indirectly (by being cool) or staying consistent in your behavior no matter what is going on. she thought the second choice was a better one for me

she asked me which of us i felt needed the other ones approval or disapproval. i said i thought that i didn't seek his approval, as much as he sought mine, in some way. she replied that in all our talks that was the sense she had also. that even while he's doing this, he comes checking back in to see where i stand. we talked about how in the past, i showed so much disapproval about so many things, and that my "doing something different" here as been to stay consistently pleasant friendly and supportive no matter what

i admitted to her today, that i feel almost done - that i almost couldn't care less that he's having the affair, and that i'm trying to figure out whether i'm shutting down because the hurt is just too much, or because i'm truly detaching to the point where i am now willing to lose this.

i have to confess - that recently i feel as if i'm about to plunge into the WAW role myself.

maybe it's part of the whole cycle the LBS goes through also.

we also talked about how i have just discovered about myself that it is very easy for me to deal with physical challenges but absolutely not at all with emotional ones. and i think that's where the real work lies for me - to be able to stabilize myself emotionally - and after all these months, it seems as if i'm just starting the work - it has taken this long just for me to get to the starting point of what really needs to be dealt with within myself.

all of this has made me realize that wanting h to come back is moot in the face of what i really have to deal with and that's why i have really dropped the rope. i have no business being in a r right now - i have to build a relationship with myself first.

incredible insight zig!

Quote:

we talk a lot here about how when we change it can/might instigate change in the other person. is that wrong to want?

Quote:

h has deliberately kept his life with s separate from my life with s for years. should i continue that pattern, in fact, as you suggest insist on it?

I'm not insisting on anything, just offering observations and asking you to be aware of your needs as well as your motives.

I think flexibility in child custody is very necessary, it's finding the balance that works for you that's probably the most difficult.

If the above has been H's pattern, why and/or how would YOU change it?

Originally Posted By: zig

she asked me which of us i felt needed the other ones approval or disapproval. i said i thought that i didn't seek his approval, as much as he sought mine, in some way. she replied that in all our talks that was the sense she had also. that even while he's doing this, he comes checking back in to see where i stand. we talked about how in the past, i showed so much disapproval about so many things, and that my "doing something different" here as been to stay consistently pleasant friendly and supportive no matter what

I can definitely relate to this. Even before the bomb, I can remember my H doing something he considered good (and actually it was, I was just being stupid), he was always looking for approval/validation. I just didn't know that's what it was until just recently. And I certainly didn't give it to him.

So I'm going out of my way to say thank you, I appreciate that you did that for me, etc., because basically I suck at it. Mainly because I never really saw my mother say any of those things to anybody, so I didn't know how to. I think it has changed the dynamic of our M even at this stage.

thanks need grace. i hope realizing these things will help me move forward in my own healing.

i am humbled by how much i still need to learn.

just went on my library's website and reserved several melody beattie books - thanks labug for the suggestion.

amybe i can start to read them to night

i listened to a cd yesterday..

and i am paraphrasing greatly but..

it was saying that the goal isn't to change ourselves...

but to be able to access our true selves in the midst of everything.

i like that...

bc it isn't saying that something is wrong with us that needs to be fixed, but that we just get pulled off track from being who we really are and want to be and need help staying on our track..

we already are those things (loving, compassionate, calm)..

zig, you make your changes for you, you work on what you know you need to work on to become a better person and sometimes that creates changes in the relationship. We do all hope for that.

But if I feel good about me and the changes I've made and it doesn't affect the relationship, I'm not going to turn myself into a pretzel trying to find the thing that will change the relationship.

I'm also not going to do something that's not in my best interests.

i feel a bit misunderstood here labug - and for all i know i'm being defensive - but here goes. i'm don't think i'm doing this BECAUSE i'm trying to change h or the relationship.

god knows - the changes i've made haven't made a hill of beans of difference to what h is continuing to do. my usual reaction would have been to "change" for a while, get what i wanted and then revert to my old ways.

being nice and flexible and loving are all huge 180's for me. i didn't do them to try and get h back - i did them because i 'woke up" and realized that i never wanted to be that old way again. i realized that no matter what he did, i would take the higher road and in spite of what he did i would still take the higher road.

granted, i am beginning to realize that taking the higher road also includes that i take care of myself - as you put it - what's not in my best interest.

well sadly - right now, i will admit that i don't know what's in my best interest here, and that's what i'm trying to figure out.

If the above has been H's pattern, why and/or how would YOU change it?
i'm not trying to change his pattern - i was trying to change the pattern.i don't expect him to agree to it or want it or care for it. i want to do it for myself - i want to know that no matter what he does, i am capable of taking the higher road and letting them be together if they want to.

this discussion has been really good for me - i can't say that i have full clarity on it, but i can say it's helped me to see where i short change myself and have always done with h - lack of boundaries and lack of knowing where and how to set them?

actually -- for months it was all very clear, and then i decided to be more relaxed about it and that's when it seems that things went downhill? or did they? all i know is that after i started h has been more relaxed when he comes to the house, and s has been less pained at transition time.

thanks for taking the time to go through this with me. i feel that i am resisting something somewhere within myself - i do seem to be arguing amy point to you, which is a good indication that i am not getting the message. so i'll read through again and see if i can get what you're saying in a different way.

bc it isn't saying that something is wrong with us that needs to be fixed, but that we just get pulled off track from being who we really are and want to be and need help staying on our track.

that's me in a nutshell for sure, need grace. too bad there ain't a nutcracker around. luckily i've got labug and you guys to gently 2 x 4 me instead.

i always thanked him profusely - thinking that was what he needed in return. but what i didn't realize was that what he needed was different from what i thought he needed.

he needed more love making, more time spent with him (i was a workaholic and work always came first) , hanging out relaxed, not being worried all the time

mostly what he needed was someone who could be happy - and i just wasn't. now i'm happy because i found out that i don't need to find that through someone else. but i'm also not happy because i find that i don't know how to deal with his stuff in terms of co-parenting

thanks roro

i guess where i get confused - and really confused is that here you are saying how you go out of your way to thank him and appreciate him but when i am attempting to go out of my way to be more flexible with s, i get 2x4'd (gently i'll admit)

can someone please help me see the difference here. i know i seem to be really dense right now

thanks
zig

Hey zig, I don't think you're being argumentative but rather, seeking to understand.

I was responding to the words you wrote. Perhaps what I read was not what you meant to convey, that happens sometimes.

For the record, I think we should all do what works as long as it doesn't involve losing pieces of ourselves.

i'm glad you think that labug - that i'm seeking to understand - i really am.

and this is where i know i have work to do on myself - finding out who and what i really am and untangling myself from the serious knot that is the r between h and me. at least in terms of how we continue to interact with each other about s.

what if you haven't even found them yet? i'm beginning to suspect that is what my real problem is

i guess where i get confused - and really confused is that here you are saying how you go out of your way to thank him and appreciate him but when i am attempting to go out of my way to be more flexible with s, i get 2x4'd (gently i'll admit)

zig, would you admit that there's quite a difference in thanking someone for doing something and giving up time with your son. To me that's apples and oranges. And it only involves 2 adults.

I would not "go out of my way" to give up time with my children. I would be flexible for special occasions or schedule glitches but I wouldn't go out of my way.

would you admit that there's quite a difference in thanking someone for doing something and giving up time with your son

when you put it that way, it sounds so different. i guess i was thinking in terms of the intention behind the act. that when RoRo said she started to do it because she sucked at it before, and didn't do it and her intention was to change that behavior.

i sucked at how "possessive" i was of s - really possessive - and it played a huge part in how shitty h felt in the relationship. i think that could be why he kept us separated - in response to me being so possessive.

i don't feel like i'm giving time up with my son - as h pointed out in that one therapy session, i've had son definitely more than he has. he seems quite conscious of it. (i guess it's beside the point that it's because of the time he chose to spend with ow, but also because he's at work and socializing and choses not to call or see son during the week he''s with me

i on the other hand volunteer to pick s up if something comes up for h - not because i want to make it easy for h, but because i get more time with s.

i don't feel possessive about s any more, and i think this is my way of showing myself that i've changed

i wonder if i gave you the impression that this was going to be a considerable amount of time that i was intending to give up. it wasn't.

the suggestion i made to h was that we could be more flexible so that h could take him or see him during the week he was with me and i could do the same on the week he was with h. so i wouldn't be really be giving up any time with son, it would be spread out in a different way.

and it is to my advantage. while school was in session - i got to see s a couple of times a week because h was teaching. now with summer on, i would really have to go an entire week without a glimpse of him - and that would really suck. if i offer flexibility i also get to see s. h might not want to do it when s is here, but i could at least get to do it when he's there?

now if what you really want to say to me is that let it stay one week on and one week off so h gets to really miss s, and that would get the point across that this is the reality of the separation, i'll understand it in a different way.

i don't know if that tactic will really work with h - he has said that he loves the freedom and being on his own without s and doesn't miss him one bit (was hard for me to hear)

so if after my suggestion, there are signs that he wants to make a slight shift - wouldn't that be a positive thing?

i am really not planning to constantly text him etc - more just let each day bring up what it may, and then decide if it's good for me and is working fairly. if it isn't, then i'm taking it off the table.

journaling -

there i went spinning again in some way. it seems that whenever i am faced with a decision - how to do something - i go spinning off and can't see or think straight.

just had a conversation with mil - and made the comment that i feel that i am doing everything the wrong way - with h, with s.

and she stopped me cold and said how about instead of thinking that, you start to think about all the things you are doing right.

so i'm going to try and do a little self appreciation here.

what am i doing right?

standing still
learning about myself and at least trying to understand how all this works and realizing what i need to change
loving myself more - much more than i ever did
trying to understand how s and h work and how to change my patterns with them
learning to be with myself independent of them and their needs
going out on my own and doing stuff that i didn't do before
imagining in a positive way life without h and being really okay with that
continuing to give as much love and support to my family, h's family and to h and s, no matter what
getting up and brushing myself off after every fall and keeping on moving forward
trying to understand what is a correct boundary for me in difficult situations

so that's quite a list and i do feel a bit more confident, now that i made it.

so here's my dilemma - i'm NOT spinning off,i just want feedback.

this is to do with a conversation h and i have to have. s switches houses every friday. s stayed with me until tuesday this week (4 extra days because h was with ow - there was no discussion with h in advance - just him casually asking me if s could stay two more days, and then later that actually he needed to stay 2 more). he took s on tuesday yesterday) and has put off twice discussing when s comes back here. his words 'lets talk about it later

the later is expected to be tonight - if he doesn't call me i am going to call him.

scenario 1 (me saying what it already is)

me: i am just confirming that we are sticking to our original schedule as we haven't discussed otherwise and that s will be back with me on friday ), as we've always done. (that gives him only 4 days with s)

possible replies from h:
no , i'd like him longer (my response - i'm happy to let you take him for a few hours here and there)
that's fine (i don't offer anything)

scenario 2( me letting him decide)

me: I would like to settle the schedule for the next few weeks. how would you like to do it"

possible replies; let's keep it friday to friday or
i want to keep s for a whole week, so let's switch to tuesday since i got him yesterday
or i don't know, what do you want to do

so if i agree to switching the schedules - he gets both - time he planned with ow and then still gets s anyway.

if i insist on the original - am i being punitive or keeping my boundaries

the second one - where we stay with what was already in place, makes me feel as if i'm setting a clear boundary - the message being that you don't get to switch the schedule around to suit you , its's what we both have to be in agreement with, well before hand and if you change things without discussing them i don't feel as if i have to go along every time. i don't mind being flexible once in a while.

i do believe that if he wants to change to tuesday to tuesday and i don't agree my answer is going to be "let me think about it and get back to you, i've actually planned my summer with friday to friday in mind and so i will have to see whether this change would suit me" - that there will be anger and some backlash possibly.

that reply will allow me sometime to come back here and get your feedback on how to handle it from that point if it comes up.

i guess, if anyone is confused - this is a different issue from the one that we've been discussing for the last few posts. that was about my position on how flexible i was with when and how our time was spent with s

this issue is about h possibly changing things around to suit himself. it is as likely that he himself will assume we stick to fridays, or to change it. there is no way for me to tell, until i have this conversation

is there a different perspective i could look at it from which would be more beneficial?

thanks zig

it sounds like your s is a pawn between the two of you. how would you answer or address this with his best interests in mind and not the tug of war that's going on here?

just my take on this.

are you serious?

now i'm playing tug of war? with my son?

oh shite - i'm so confused with everyone's different takes on this

my take: i want to be more flexible with son spending time with both h and me.

responses from the board: don;t give up your time with son.

my mil: take s back on friday and tell h that if he protests that he can have him for a couple of hours on the weekend

your take: i'm playing tug of war

my son's take: i want to be with dad every minute i can

my IC: be as loving and kind but keep your boundaries firm

i think the tug of war isn't over son, it's over everyone's differing opinions and to top it off here's my horoscope for the week

Here's the moral of the story, Sagittarius: Be discerning as you ask for feedback and mirroring. The information you receive will always be skewed.

so i'm just going to sit back and laugh and let whatever happens happen. i'm blinking exhausted here!!

i need to get my sense of humor back here - it's ludicrous that i'm even in this position of trying to figure out the ins and outs of separations and whats the right and wrong thing to do for s.

actually i do believe that if s was asked - he would want to stay for a whole week with h and is going to be really upset if he has to come back on friday.

these odd "disappearances" from his father are very unsettling for him and i've noticed that right after that he pushes really hard to be with h as much as he can - thus the insistence of going to the summer course. but that's just my take on it, and what do i know, i'm just his mom...

incidentally this last 'disappearance' of h's was the oddest - and s asked me several times where h was. i replied that i didn't know - and i didn't at the time. i believe it unnerved s more than usual - all the other trips had "explanations" from h, which were usually not what he was doing but something else. the last time, when he left for the longest one - he gave s different stories and times, that i think s figured something was not matching up (he's really smart), and he clung to h for days after he got back.

i'm trying to make things as best i can for s, while at the same time making sure that i don't get taken advantage of - to give him some reassurances in this messy situation - to give him as much time as he wants with his dad. i actually think that if i was keeping him here then i would be playing tug over him.

i appreciate your observation scaredsilly and it definitely made me react - i won't deny that. i admit i am sensitive about my role with s - i have been criticized by h so heavily on every last aspect of this that even though i used to be a super-confident mom, i've just about lost my confidence on whether i am parenting correctly or not and making the right decisions for myself and s. it is taking me a long time to separate out what h said in his bomb dropping and blowing everything out of proportion to what it may have been, and to finding what is really true and what i have to work on.

the reason i asked for feedback is that i'm still trying to figure out where i'm controlling and what seems to come across as controlling because that is how h perceives me to be.

if there's a tug of war going on, i think it's within myself:)

zig

(((zig)))

I think you're a little rudderless right now. The confusion is coming from within yourself because you're trying to please too many masters.

Sit with your self for a couple of days and get your bearings, figure out what ZIG wants and needs. Then you'll know which advice to take and which to leave.

oh labug - thanks for the hug.

i think i'm just puzzled - i read other people's posts and they ask similar kinds of questions about what to do and how, and get concrete responses on how to handle details in their sitch.

when i ask for help, it seems as if i can never just get an answer, but instead there's all this crazy discussion and i land up looking rudderless in all of it.

what am i doing different, or what do you see i'm really doing here. could i be asking in a different way that would get me some kind of answer?

i'm about to have this stupid conversation with h at 10 tonight - i called to say good night to s - he picked up and said "i know i said we'd talk tonight about the schedule and stuff, but can we do it tomorrow because a friend stopped by."

third time in 2 days he's put it off.

i replied "well, seems as if i don't have a choice"

he said "well i guess the alternative is that i can call you back later after i put s to bed and we can talk for 15 mins"

i replied, that yes i would appreciate that very much as i would like to know how the rest of my week is going to go

and now after all this discussion on the board etc, i can hardly even remember what it is i want to say or how to say it.

i talked to s for a while, but i didn't dare ask him whether he wanted to stay just till friday and stick to the schedule or change it - i couldn't figure out whether it was right to ask him or not to decide - so i didn't do anything.

i am rudderless right now, and could really use some support here.

and thanks for all the time you've spent with me today - i really appreciate it.

zig

hey zig, i've been trying to zag through your posts this evening.

Do you meditate at all? It sounds like you have a lot of beans jumping around in your head and you could use some time to calm it down a little!

I'm not sure why some people seem to get concrete suggestions and others don't.

I don't have any suggestions as scheduling kid time is not my area of DB expertise.... but I think it's good that you were firm that you wanted to talk about the scheduling tonight.

Honestly, I agree with your IC. I went through a vicious custody battle with my ex some years ago. None of it my doing. My ex was trying to get me back for wanting a divorce. Once that was done, I made sure to be as flexible as possible with him about spending time with the kids and we have all benefited. Really,, the kids needs are most important. So I would say be flexible, have neutral expectations about your Hs conduct, and show both S and H by being a great model of how a wife/mother should comport herself. That would be my advice. It is generally better to be kind than to be right.

figure out what ZIG wants and needs

[censored] labug - i went and read your post again after i wrote my reply and this jumped out - and i think all of this is actually taking me through some process which is bringing to the surface finally a huge issue.

for weeks i've been sensing that there is something still unresolved within me - and maybe it's symptom is that i DON'T know what i want and need. i have no idea, possibly.

for 11 yrs i've lived with this man and this child and apart from the fact that i really do love them, i started out by committing myself on the grounds that i couldn't not join him because we had a child together and i couldn't make the decision that i would be responsible for separating them.

i didn't take myself into consideration at all, not then and through the whole marriage, always putting them first at my own expense. i'm still doing it. i actually feel so much anxiety dealing with both s and h.

i haven't mentioned it today at all, but all afternoon while i've been posting there's been another drama going on with s and h and fil. - they overwhelm me, all three with their passive aggressiveness. each time i think that something is clear and settled, it comes up unexpectedly and i feel as if i have to clean up the mess.

this time it was clearly h who messed up, and then when i tried to discuss it with him - he took on the stance of - what's the big deal, this isn;t a big deal.meanwhile s, is crying to me on the phone because he was so disappointed and i was being firm and holding to what i originally said. the result was s had to swallow down his feelings and force himself to act as if he didn't care anymore, and h is acting as if everyone was fussing too much. to top it off, it was all instigated by fil who broke the same boundary that h and i have tried to establish for years.

it's crazy making - and much as i am trying to detach, this comes up periodically and i think a lot of what was going on behind my posts was the anxiety that comes up in me when i have to deal with them. i know it is my problem to fix - and i intend to talk about it with iC on friday

yes, i admit that even after all this time the same anxiety that was at it's peak for all the years of our marriage still gets triggered off. i thought i had a handle on it all these months - while h was much more in withdrawal - but now suddenly he's making things chaotic and it's coming up again.

i think it's connected with his recent visit with ow. he's trying to push my buttons big time here - testing me, to see if i am going to react. it's pissing me off. i think during the call tonight i'm going to tell him he needs to deal with this and i want no part of it.

thank you unbidden for your advice.

i believe i intend to do that. i feel as if i am going to kill this thing with kindness. fighting over when h has son does not make sense to me, no matter how he is behaving and no matter what he is doing.

i think that i shall just ask him how we are to go about the rest of the week. i don't have any expectations of which way he might go, but i am going to hope and look forward to trusting him to be fair about it, and suggesting himself what is the right thing to do.

thanks vera - i guess i'm sounding all off kilter and like a nut!!

i did go meditate this evening - but i guess there's just too much going on.

maybe i'm digging my heels in too much here about insisting that h and i talk tonight. that i'm "right" about him not committing to the schedule on MY time.

i think you guys are trying to tell me that i need to chill out and i'm going to get the message now.

as i read your post i realized that i am in no state to talk to h tonight, and that i need to be in a much more upbeat frame of mind to handle it. so i'm going to text him and say that it's too late to talk tonight and he's right we should do it tomorrow.

i know i want to do it sooner than later, but i think it's more important to do it when i'm not this off kilter and obviously i am

thanks for helping me see that
zig

okay i have got to really vent now.

i just sent h a text:
it's a bit late so it's better for me if we talk tomorrow. Can u text me a time as i've got a lot going on. thanks

his reply: okay how about in the afternoon. is s going to fence tomorrow?

i KNOW this is the insanity of the mlc'er. he asked me to arrange a fencing class for s last week. i didn't arrange the one he wanted , he got irritated and questioned it heavily and aggressively- i backed off and said let's talk about it later as it was not a good time. now he's acting as if it was all settled.

at least i'm proud of myself - started texting back to him, just ready to be fed up, but luckily stopped, deleted it and decided to vent here instead. i'm not going to answer until the morning - as i've technically gone to bed.

i don't know what i'm going to say - right now all i feel like saying is you a$$hole, quit playing games with me when it comes to s. i'm fed up!!

the stupid thing is that i have a feeling that he doesn't even remember what he said. he just lets stuff out, and then forgets he had that reaction, and then acts later as if he didn't have that opinion.

aargh - i need to throw some plates !!

okay, vent over, i'm calm now. this day is done and tomorrow, i am determined to go join the turtles - this was just one of those hardship days which i don't have to repeat

just thought of what i will text him in the morning:

h, could you take care of signing s up for fencing, please, as i don't have the time for it today and i would appreciate the help, thanks zig

You are getting awesome advice, zig!

Thank you for admitting you are a workaholic. Admit that, own it, and work on it. I was, as well. I know what that's like.

Perhaps you are working on that and I must stress again...

Schedule GAL and time with son as strictly and with as much importance as you would with work.

I understand that work may put roof over head and food on plate...

But without a centred and strong mind and soul, your loss of self and s might be worse than a lost contract or billable hours.

Bug mentioned something really important which is, KNOW WHAT ZIG WANTS.

As far as flexible schedule, and as bad as the fixed schedule might seem, you may still be too early in that game to try to have even basic flexibility.

My W, without the SA, gave me very little time with kids last year. She "thought" she was. She's since realized she didn't. So with that admittance AND the SA, she STILL wants flexibility... and it appears to happen only when it is convenient for her.

You may want S to have some control over where he is, and that can happen... with time... but for now, like all boundaries with children, let them get used to the routine / boundaries... THEN introduce limited flexibility...

No matter what, check your motivations on flexibility...

Consider... your H might like flexibility because it makes child care convenient for him... and you're catering to that... double bind...

My W asks me for flexibility and I give... and then when I ask for flexibility it's like pulling teeth... not that I do... I cherish the time I DO have with my kids... I schedule everything else AROUND my time with my kids...

'nuff said from me, again...

like bug said...

decide what Zig wants...

because this is about Zig... no one else... just be the best mom you can be, under the circumstances that you find yourself. Everything else will fall into place.

understand that what ever your H might be doing to work with you... he is doing it because it serves him...

you... are doing what serves you...

so how is WHAT you are doing, serving you?

Check that... and adjust as necessary...

My only 2 cents is that a strict schedule would give you less communication with him with is good. I feel like there's way too much communication with H which is slightly screwing with your head.

Accept that things are changing and that you can't monitor it control H's parenting. If something comes up H has to learn to handle it. Know that S will be okay! It's hard to detach especially with issues involving kids. But I know you can do it!

"he asked me to arrange a fencing class for s last week"

maybe he's asking too much of you? maybe this type of action should be his own? i don't know your arrangements for activities but could he have done this himself instead of asking you to do it?

zig, i did not mean to hurt your feelings. i could not even begin to read through all of the scenarios you were putting out there for comments on. it was stressing me out to try to keep it all straight. i can only imagine how you're feeling being in the middle of all of that.

what i saw in that post and the posts that followed (and you said so, yourself, several times) is a-n-x-i-e-t-y.

sometimes there is no answer until later. i have anxiety, too.

i went to my family doctor just yesterday for it. i got a prescription for a non-addictive, anti-anxiety medication. it's just too much for me to handle everything on my own right now without some assistance.

i also went to my yoga class last night and that helps, too.

Hey Zig, finally catching up on things. Hope you're feeling good today.

A few thoughts for you.

In regard to "rudderless", I agree with Bug about deciding what you want.

IMHO, we need to remember that while there are some standard practices for DB, it is designed to be flexible. a 180 for one person is typically NOT a 180 for another person. What is provided here is advice from many different views and experiences. But none of them are completely your view & experience. Ultimately, you are the one who grabs the rudder and decides where you want to take your life.

For me, I found myself falling into a consensus building practice on this board. And since there are so many different views (and I believe all given in good faith with a strong since of compassion and care to help) I found it paralyzing at times not knowing which way to go.

So here's another piece of advice you can choose to accept or decline. Stop analyzing everything. Focus on you, what you want, what's good for your son and then live. Step back and look at the forrest. You have a full spirit that comes out in your posts and its wanting to live fully. Details, over-analyzing, wondering what actions will create what response...it can all get so very tiring.

Some things you just have to deal with. No doubt about that. So tackle them and move on. You're son's lucky to have you. Keep enjoying those moments and he will too.

((((Zig))))

thanks everyone for your replies.

yes KD - you are right - i am getting good advice from everyone here - and yesterday i got myself balled up into such a knot that i couldn't take it.

it took a lot of hacking through for me to find out that i don't really know what i want. i have this image in my head - that i've had for years about how i would like things to be and it's never come close to that.

now i have to face reality and see that it's just not happening.

you know, for some bizarre reason i think i was thinking that the separation may actually be the thing that helps h and i communicate better. if he gets what he thinks he wants then the pressure of him staying with me is gone, and then it's just a simple thing for us to take care of son together.

but %(*&&%$&^^^%$$ (that's me cursing big time) even this situation doesn't help does it? if anything, it's worse.

i don't know if the issue is not knowing what i want so much as i know what i want, but i don't know how to get it.

as for the anxiety, scaredsilly , you are spot on - and i'm sorry that i stressed all of you out. i have to get a handle on it. it rises so fast and hard, that i'm caught up in the whirlwind of it, and can't even think of getting myself centered again. it did occur to me yesterday that maybe i should be taking something to help me with it.

what is the stuff you were referring to? can you give me the name of it?

there is too much to deal with - and you know, this is what our marriage was like, and i shut down. maybe it's time for me to accept that this relationship is not good for me, and to really understand that h did me a huge favor by recognizing that in some way and leaving.

you're all right about keeping things separate - i see it this morning - that we are not ready to have more flexibility. i knew deep down that the fact that i was arguing back and forth with everyone yesterday was a really good sign that i was going down the wrong path.

i think i just wanted to try something different - to shake up the situation a bit, and that is entirely the wrong way to go about it

the first thing i have to tackle is this issue over the fencing.

i actually woke up this morning with the thought - let him do it. it suddenly became very simple - he can take care of deciding about which fencing class s goes to. that way i extract myself from the whole pattern of "s needs something, h asks me to take care of it, i take care of it, h objects and is pissed at me, i get all anxious and cannot understand what happened"

the only way to step out of that is to say no h, you take care of it and sidestep the whole thing altogether. the same exact pattern happened with the other thing yesterday except both his parents were involved. mil and i were trying really hard to break the pattern, but all of us got pulled into it.

thanks again all of you - i'm still a bit raw this morning, but definitely a lot more grounded. people on this board have been telling me for months (labug) that increased contact with h always makes me spiral down and i just wouldn't listen. i'm ready to listen now

in fact i'm going to insist that we keep things really separate

zig

thanks ces - for what you wrote - it's reassuring to know that others have felt the groundlessness of too many choices at times during their sitch.

i do really like everything you wrote , and you're right it is ME who decides which way my life is to go.

i think what i can't reconcile with is that the picture of that (if h and i are not together) does not include him at all and i can't wrap my mind around having him in my life because he's our son's father and living the other life i am starting to envision.

i have to come to terms with the fact that whether i like it or not, he's in my life, not necessarily the way i want him to be. AND that i'll always have to deal with his personality - and the options are either that it always makes me crazy, or that i change my way of reacting so it doesn't get to me

ooh, does that stink of detachment...

the over analyzing has simply got to stop for me.

i think this morning , i have come to realize and accept that all of this is a reaction to ow's trip. i didn't want to think it affected me - but i've cycled through this enough times that i have to admit, that each time he does something like this, i tell myself and everyone for days that i'm good and it's no big deal and then other things trigger me off and i deal with my feelings through other trivial stuff rather than face the real thing.

" You have a full spirit that comes out in your posts and its wanting to live fully"

you're right - i'm just denying it aren't i?

thanks ces - and thanks for taking the time to stop by - hope your sitch is still going really well - i'll pop in later

zig

Originally Posted By: zig

i actually woke up this morning with the thought - let him do it. it suddenly became very simple - he can take care of deciding about which fencing class s goes to. that way i extract myself from the whole pattern of "s needs something, h asks me to take care of it, i take care of it, h objects and is pissed at me, i get all anxious and cannot understand what happened"

the only way to step out of that is to say no h, you take care of it and sidestep the whole thing altogether. the same exact pattern happened with the other thing yesterday except both his parents were involved. mil and i were trying really hard to break the pattern, but all of us got pulled into it.

A ha! Good for you for identifying the pattern and the 180 you need to do to remove yourself from that situation going forward. That is a good step toward detachment. Be prepared for some kind of backlash from him because you're breaking a pattern that he is also used to. You can be firm about your position but kind, too. You can do it!

thanks vera

mil and i have been talking about it for the last few weeks, really trying to find a way around this,

i am prepared for a backlash - it's probably guaranteed!!

especially when it comes on the tail end of:

"h, i want to stick to the original schedule of friday to friday. also, i am not willing to take care of s, during any other times EXCEPT if you have to work, no exceptions. you'll have to make your own arrangements. i know i said earlier that i'd like first priority, but i've changed my mind "

that will give me less access to s - which hurts my heart, but i'll just have to deal with it.

i am also thinking about getting s his own cell phone - that way he and i can communicate directly without going through h all the time.

i think it's time for me to hard line it here - just to save my own sanity

thanks again
zig

how about another spanner in the works. i wrote the post back to you and then went to look at my horoscope - i'm just laughing, because i think the universe is telling me to CHILL OUT and calm down before making any moves

Think long and hard today before making any commitments, Zia. Much is at stake, especially where your love life is concerned. It is likely that a proposal of some sorts is coming your way. Do you know how you will answer? The events of the day may have you feeling that you are at a crossroads, when actually you are more on track than ever. The key to today lies in trusting your instincts and remaining true to your ideals

i know i'm feeling fed up and pissed off - never a good time to communicate in that state, is it.

i will go ahead about the fencing thing - but leave the second part out and see how it plays out.

as ces says, step back and look at the forest. i don't have to decide anything right now this minute. i don't have to push anything and constantly be right.

i'm off to hang out with those turtles - all day!!

I give myself 48 hours before I pull the trigger on any major decisions. Think about it, sit with it and see if what you're saying is in alignment with what you want after that period of time.

Quote:

h, i want to stick to the original schedule of friday to friday. also, i am not willing to take care of s, during any other times EXCEPT if you have to work, no exceptions. you'll have to make your own arrangements I will be happy to have S if you have to work during your week but for other events, I'm asking you to make other arrangements. I'd like to know about schedule changes a week in advance. i know i said earlier that i'd like first priority, but i've changed my mind "

thanks labug - my original version sounded defensive and angry after i read your corrections

and thanks for reminding me of the 48 hr rule - i forgot it in my frenzy, didn't i?

what is this stupid need i have to get things clear on my time, always? when will i learn?

you saved me through this -

thanks

((( )))
zig

Only because I've walked this path and have an idea where the landmines are.

I used to be so afraid of making decisions because I was always taking everyone else into consideration.

And then there was the "What if I make the wrong decision?" fear. Figuring out who I am and what I want made all of that a lot easier. I still wrestle with it a bit but it's better. This place helps, my IC helps.

Only because I've walked this path and have an idea where the landmines are.

they are land mines aren't they?

and that's what this board is about - helping people like me maneuver around them from people like you who have gone through it already.

i thought i knew what i was appreciating this board about, but now i'm really beginning to understand what is happening here.

as for what i want - i don't even know where to start: in terms of my life?
in terms of everyday stuff, in terms of what i do on my own regardless of what happens with h?

where did you start labug?

maybe it's a starting point that i'm just aware now that i don't know what i want. that it's okay to sit with that for a while and give it some space.

i'm just sad to find that out about myself. but sad is good, it's one step up from despair, so i can look at it as progress.

i listened to ester hicks this morning - it was a good one - she talked about staying in the cycle of despair/fear and how things just don't go well when you stay in that state and that it's about climbing up the emotional ladder. so if one can get oneself from fear/despair to anger, that's an improvement. she points out that it's not a good idea to stay at the anger stage for too long, but to keep moving up until you get to feeling good.

as soon as i listened to that, i saw how true it was from what i went through yesterday - i spent the whole day in a despair/fear state and then late in the evening that text from h, just tipped me over into fed up/anger state and i actually felt better and much more decisive than i had been all day.

i've learned enough now to recognize that this state is NOT the place from which to make decisions or say anything, so i am going to be proud of myself for recognizing that and wait until i can get to a higher emotional state where i can think positively and then decide and act. and in just appreciating myself for seeing that i've learned something actually makes me feel even that little bit better than i did a while ago

long ladder!!

yes, this place helps - a lot! but it's not the place - it's the wonderful amazing people here.

I think the cell for your s is a great idea, especially, since your h can be so demanding. Asking you to handle the fencing is him treating you as a wife, IMO.
The drug my dr. prescribed for me is buspirone 10 mg (generic Buspar), 3x's a day. He wouldn't give me Xanax. He said too addictive. I got a 30 supply (90 pills) for about $5 with my insurance.

I hope they help. Lord knows I need some assistance with these peaks and valleys.

well i am his wife and he damn well knows it!!
i didn't think of it that way. i think what perturbs me most is that what he wants is that i carry on with the wife/mom role while he goes out to play.

and it pisses me off! my ex did that too, in my first marriage. need to break this pattern for myself, why am i attracted to that kind of person.

hmm, that question made me think of what KD''s theories are with double binds am i some sort of self sabotager who sub consciously chooses partners who act this way and then i can hold it over them? yuck - i no like that picture at all

thanks for the med info - will look into it. i have a second apptmt with my IC tomorrow and will talk to her about it.

I would definitely do the cell phone. Not sure what plan you have, but I am with AT&T and it is only $10/month for D13's phone. Shared minutes, but mobile to mobile is free.

thanks lost - there will be backlash from h. only he's allowed to change the status quo. whenever i act as if i don't care to talk to him, i get the schpeel on "how come you don't want to talk to me, how come you don't want to see me, aren't we good friends?" in a slightly whiny voice.

i have thought about it for a couple of months, and hesitated, not because of that, but actually because i don't think s will remember to carry it ever. but maybe it's time for me to entrust s with that responsibility now

i don't really know what took place today, and i bet i'll get a few 2 x4's here. it sort of happened so unexpectedly

first i think i did a good thing, i meditated, got myself in a good place, saw how i could change the pattern, and set myself down to write an email to h. he doesn't always check his mail so i texted him saying sent you an email.

he called back after teaching- and the convo went really well , i just expected it to and kept saying that to myself.

he started out by saying that he wanted to discuss the email, and we went through the fencing thing (he insisted that he hadn't said he was against what i arranged, i just stayed calm and said that it was the impression i had and that we could of course talk about it) . then we dealt with the other summer camp that s wants to attend and he agreed to call the guy and go over to meet him. ( i didn't expect anything - don't know how many times i've heard that)

then he said - well we have to figure out the schedule with s, and i said yes and waited - didn't suggest anything. he himself asked should we stick to friday to friday or do you want to try another way. i just said simply, i like the friday deal because it starts off the weekend, and is easier for me. he agreed and then said well tomorrow is friday and i just said yes it is, what time shall i expect to get s back.

he tried to muddle things a bit and i let him decide (give a little???) - it was left open while he arranges a play date - i made it clear that i had an appointment at 10. (i didn;t say why but he probably guessed it was w/ my IC)

then came the interesting part of the conversation - and i am proud of myself. the summer camp thing in july is all day everyday. the course he is teaching is until 1.30 everyday in june. if s does not go to the july course, he asked, what will he do then?

i replied, well the week he is with me i have no problem setting up play dates for him etc. you will have to make arrangements for him the week he's with you. (h does not do play dates, and besides he can't if he's in the studio or building his house)

he got a bit quiet and then said oh i'm not worried about that. i outright asked him very calmly that i wanted to verify whether he was pushing the summer camp for july so that his days would be covered and s had somewhere to go. his reply confirmed that he had definitely not thought of that.

as soon as we got everything clear - including that he would take care of s the weekend of the 14th as i would be out of town (he doesn't like that at all and has made several comments on it - i won't tell him where i'm going) , i said that i had to get back to work and thanked him for us getting everything clear.

he called back 10 mins later - he had already called the guy and wanted us to go down there in the next 15 mins, WOW - one of h's things is that he never takes care of stuff right away. so i think the way i handled it was correct.

so i asked him and s to swing by and pick me up. again he did something different - came in, used the bathroom, went into s's room (we rearranged it last week) - he hasn't gone in there for weeks - he's been avoiding the whole house. made a goofy comment about has s's bed moved a bit (it's well on the other side of the room. i laughed and said very relaxed - you haven't been gone so long that you couldn't remember where the bed used to be.

and we went to meet the film maker for s's course. in the car he asked sort of carefully - so has anyone called for play dates recently. i said yes and gave them the info (when kids call to play with s while he's at h's i tell them to call there)

that last was really telling for me - i am and have been entirely responsible for the play dates, which are a huge part of s's life and very important to him. that's the first time h has asked me - i think my making it clear that i wasn't arranging this stuff anymore for him really got through - a bit of a wake up call. the other thing is that in 10 months s has refused to have any play dates at h's house. only 2 of his friends know that he lives there every other week (i expect that to change when they move into the house h has bought)

more in my next post - will get to the 2 x 4 stuff then.

no 2x4's needed from what i see in the above post

no - that was the part that i did really well.

here comes the unexpected part.

i was sort of quiet in the truck on the way there- not usual for me, usually i'm a bit nervous and so i babble. instead s was sort of babbly - i think he gets a bit nervous when the 3 of us are together.

so we get to the film studio - and the teacher comes to intro himself. h sort of takes over super confidently, intros himself, then just by passes me and intros s (i'm standing next to h and s is a few feet away). as i had expected him to intro me next, i'd already stuck my hand out, and there was this odd moment when the guy didn't know who's hand to shake - i just kept my hand out quietly with a pleasant smile on my face, unperturbed, while h fumbled a bit and then intro'd me by my name. the guy shook my hand before s's - and i could see that he had picked up on the vibes right away!!

h was very uncomfortable - this has happened several times - and the first time i called him on it - months ago (actually after a night we slept together). he admitted that he didn't know how to introduce me anymore - and i just said, use my name. he'd always intro'd me as his wife before.

today though, i felt the disrespect a bit and was actually not upset - just said to myself oh well that's where he's at - still trying to figure things out.

well then the teacher really got into explaining everything to us - and it took quite a while. but the weirdest thing happened. he started talking almost entirely to me - SERIOUS eye contact and pretty intense. really intense - and it didn't help that he was really attractive!

h was not happy - he moved off to the side and i watched his demeanor go from very confident to quite anxious (he does some very specific things when he's anxious and they only started after the affair started). i could see him trying not to look at us!!

i stayed very relaxed, friendly and did interact with the guy - looking directly at him. i absolutely did not flirt - but it may have looked like i was enjoying the contact???

(when h had called me to say we could go down there right away, he had stressed how much he had liked the guy on the phone - he was really great! on the other hand i had been quite hesitant about the whole thing so had walked in there with mixed feelings. five mins after seeing the place and the set up (before the eye contact thing, i was already convinced that s would love it)

back in the truck - h started complaining about something minor that happened in there, sounding like he did not want s to go. s and i stayed really relaxed and didn't push it ( i have recently talked to s about letting h participate in making decisions like this and for us to stay patient), and we talked of other things.

then s complimented h big time on his teaching skills and h looked abashed - i reached over and touched his arm lightly and added my compliments too (first time i have touched him in a long while) - he was really pleased - and i thought - wow s and i rarely ever really really tell him something like that.

when we got to the house, i immediately turned to s (who was unstrapping himself ready to get out) and said okay see you sweetheart, give me a hug. making it clear i didn't expect them to stay ( i usually let them dawdle) and asked h so when do we want to decide about this?

h allowed us to have a wonderful family moment - really warm and wonderful - and believe me there have been pretty much none until today - where we voted together and decided. he played the teasing game with s pretending to say no and we all laughed together. i got out happily and went in.

i was really pleased - even if this is temporary - it's been my goal for soooo long - that h allows us to have some good moments together. so i feel as if i achieved something little here. it's not so much for myself as for s. i keep thinking that i want s to have good memories of the 3 of us together even if h and i aren't. he finally allowed us one.

so the goal for me now, is to focus on the patterns i see that muck us up, and find a way to change them. i feel as if i really achieved something today in one of our most sensitive issues.

do you think it's better to stay totally quiet or can i send h a text saying "so glad that you and i made s so happy today, thanks"

because we really did - and i felt for once, really once, we did it together.

I wanted to share with all of you what a really good friend, who has always guided me to take the higher road sent me today. I also included her lovely message. She and I are gal'ing saturday night, as she invited me to a concert with her.

Dearest Zig,
One of my dear friends is experiencing much prolonged grief since deaths of her father then mother. She was sent this beautiful email which I will forward to you, knowing that grief is universal, regardless the cause.
I am glad we will enjoy some time and meaningful, beautiful music together Sat.
Love,
A

Have been thinking so much about your grief, your loss, and how easily I forget about its presence in your waking life and how it can violently shake your dreams. I must try to be distracted less, and attentive more�to remember that, as Shakespeare said:
�Grief lies within and the external manners of lament are merely shadows to the unseen grief that swells with silence in the tortured soul.�
I forget that grief seems so much like fear, anxiety and ceaseless dread�. Has carved out our innards, and rings in our hollowed out body so loudly that we, at times, have to reduce life to rote and try to keep our feelings at some distance� as if they were living in some remote cabin by a lonely lake� whose cold waters we might very well like to jump into and drown.
I forget that grief acts like some other thing, because it does not want to show itself in its rawness, is ashamed about its nakedness�so, if it goes out, at all, it has to dress itself up and venture out in its dark cloak and veil, into the assault of the world, hoping that it won�t be seen and go about, anonymously on its daily rounds.
There is the adage that �time cures all� and we are encouraged to go with the flow, to bow and accept, to act by the grace of reason. But what if the flow is a raging torrent taking us to the precipitous falls�what if we get on bended knee and lower our head in consecration, only to have it ingloriously chopped off�what if there is no reason, but all is madness. Maybe it is better, like Dylan Thomas says, to �rage, rage at the dying of the light� and become a marauder in this imperfect, terrorized world.
I simply don�t know. I do believe that grief changes�that it goes from grief to the memory of grief and ultimately the world is restored�.that there comes a time when we wake up and lift ourselves up. Like the sparrow I saw this morning, weighed down by life�s gravity, then opened it its wings so easily and flew over the bayberrys and up into a nearby Oak.
And I do believe, though it seem a feral beast, we can care for grief, can ritually set out a bowl for it, daily, and let it come near and perhaps it will eventually yield to the slightest/lightest of touches� or maybe we will have to settle for admiring its strange beauty and let that be enough, knowing that it still needs us.

I ran across a poem by Mary Oliver which contains some similar thoughts (though with better metaphors and craft):

Love sorrow. She is yours now, and you must
take care of what has been
given. Brush her hair, help her
into her little coat, hold her hand,
especially when crossing a street. For, think,
what if you should lose her? Then you would be
sorrow yourself; her drawn face, her sleeplessness
would be yours. Take care, touch
her forehead that she feel herself not so
utterly alone. And smile, that she does not
altogether forget the world before the lesson.
Have patience in abundance. And do not
ever lie or ever leave her even for a moment
by herself, which is to say, possibly, again,
abandoned. She is strange, mute, difficult,
sometimes unmanageable but, remember, she is a child.
And amazing things can happen. And you may see,
as the two of you go
walking together in the morning light, how
little by little she relaxes; she looks about her;
she begins to grow.

It�s a fine sentiment, and I hope you will be able to offer yourself that tenderness...

i had to post again - more proof that my 180 worked, in terms of changing a pattern. i've simply stopped being the fixer and h seems to be jumping into the role

h called and tried to say that he just couldn't deal with setting up a play date for tomorrow and he'd have to wait until my appointment finished and drop s off. there was definitely an expectant tone from him waiting mfor me to jump in and offer to do it myself

i pointed out that he wouldn't be able to spray his house and work all morning and his reply was a bit self-pitiful - that's the hard facts of life, i guess i'll have to deal with

i didn't respond, then he said i guess i should set it up but i don't have anyone's phone numbers and it's too much trouble.

me: i'm happy to give you the phone number and yes it would be really nice if you set it up. he immediately replied very decisively, okay then i'll do it

called back later and the kid couldn't play in the morning but only in the afternoon at my place. he offered to bring them over here and i said great see you at 12.

what i learned: STOP OFFERING TO DO STUFF NON-STOP!!!

was definitely doing that too much. i just stopped!! and it feels damn good!

when i don't offer to do stuff - he realizes he can actually do it and do it well.

he might as well start doing this - if he's not coming back, it would be goofy at the least that s only has play dates every other week!

i did take the opportunity during the second call to say thank you and that we did a wonderful thing for s today and made s really happy. he seemed to respond pretty positively to that

have you gotten to the part where we're supposed to have our 2x4's ready yet? because I don't see it

no 2x4's from me. i'm glad you are letting him feel the effects of his decision to not let you be his wife. i know you're married, legally.

he can't have it both ways and you are showing him this.

you are awesome zig! i think you handled today so so well...

all the work you put in over the past few days to be ready in both heart and mind really seemed to pay off..

BRAVO!

well - the part about that teacher guy - intensely interacting with me, right in front of h!

i figured someone would tell me off about being careful not to flirt with other men around the WAS! i wash;t flirting , but i also wasn't NOT making eye contact myself and enjoying it a little bit.

am i feeling guilty here? a little twinge of it. the attraction was actually a little intense.

on the other hand - what's wrong with looking around, right? - except i didn't expect it to happen IN FRONT of h and s!

if i was totally honest it left me a little shaken for a bit.

btw, is anyone going to give me a tiny little pat on the back for doing the biggest 180 and changing what was probably our most troublesome pattern ever???

or is it only me who can see what i did:)

thanks vera - you're too sweet

thanks scaredsilly.

i finally got to this point, and i wasn't even close to it yesterday this time.

i woke up this morning on the tail end of a dream that i don't remember, but as i woke up, i was saying to myself - let him do it.

and suddenly it was just clear, how i needed to handle it so that it was really positive, non-confrontational and effective. give him the chance and not be impatient and have no expectations.

i set up GAL for this weekend with s back tomorrow - frisbee playing in the evening and a cook out with our friends for fri. then sat, s goes with in-laws to a outdoor symphony in another town while i go to a concert with my friend, and then we'll hang out after that.

ok, I will affirm and validate...

you did a great 180...

thanks KD - are you just teasing me?

i'm reading tonight - following cadets list of links for mlc reading

found this post and was really touched by it . it describes our ups and downs so well. it's on a thread called "MLC depression is torture"

Laurie and Snodderly,

I am trying hard not to put any pressure on my H. In fact I have so little contact with him, that it would be more difficult to put pressue on him. But I know that I put lots of pressure on myself. Pressure to be strong, to get over this, to let go, to forgive, to be patient, to do so many things that are so difficult. This grieving is so much harder than nany of my other losses (mother, father, brother, grandparents). You expect people in your life to die, but I never expected my H to betray me and leave. But you all have helped me so much. I know this is about him and I am not taking it so personally anymore. My C is helping me to work on my negative thoughts and how they spiral down sometimes. I guess nobody can help me with the missing part. I miss having him here so much. Miss his laugh and his arms and his love. That is what I resent about other woman. she has those. I know it is not all roses for them but I don't get to see any of the evidence of his pain or depression. I jsut see him making his comittment to her more permanent every day. I know I can't do anything about that and so I try to put it out of my mind, but alas I am weak. he creeps in on me when I least expect it and boom, I'm down. but I know I will get better, I know I will survive and all of that. It just looks like it is so far away from here. So bare with me as I crawl my way through this tunnel. I seem to need your constant reminders that I will be okay.

God has blessed me with many good people in my life and he led me to this bb for a reason. Because I need the support of caring people like you who don't judge my feelings and will always let me cry or rage at the injustice of my H actions.

thank you
jaycee

Great 180, zig! Really!

And about the film maker, your H has decided he doesn't want to be your H. If other men find you attractive and interesting, so be it. You didn't seek it out, it came to you.

thanks labug, really.

i felt a bit goofy asking for a pat on the back, but i will admit that 10+ months of absolutely no positive feedback from h has been wearing me down.

i really have got to the point that i am so willing to lose this relationship - but what i'm NOT yet willing to lose is the possibility of the three of us being able to have good moments together. that, i won't give up .

we have been a very tight family and more so because of attachment parenting and i just want this for s -

you're right - i didn't seek it, it came to me. that's a good way of looking at it.

thank you labug for walking through yet another storm with me these past few days - it seems as if you've become my "fairy godmother" stepping in to guide me when i get really lost in the storm (sorry to be so mushy - but i look back over the last few months, and every time i 'lost it' you just quietly popped up on my thread and stayed until i was through it - amazing)

zig

I'm glad I could be of help.

I'm still learning from everyone here, I'm still finding me and everyone here helps me in that search.

i'm moving to where the focus needs to be - on me. so today at IC, i walked in with three specify issues i need to talk about and stuck to them. C was happy and pointed out how unfocused i had been, and was glad to see my shift.
last session had ended with her making a note that we should talk about my feelings of hurt, betrayal and forgiveness.

but when i came in i said i wanted to talk about anxiety, obsessive thinking and detachment, and when she brought the other 3 up i said - i can't do those until i work on these. i could see she was really happy.

we spent most of the time talking about obsessive thought patterns - i admitted (for the first time how this has been a pattern always for me, not just during this sitch and how i can see that now - that there was always something i obsessed about - work, parenting issues, ex h, and now h)

i thought i'd journal her suggestions - for myself as well as for others here.

she first talked about how seductive ruminating is - it's sort of a mind addiction, that gives us the false feeling that we are "solving" the problem. all solutions come in the first 15 mins of ruminating and then the rest is just falling into the cycle and has no positive function at all.

she said that she was a follower of Stephen Llardi who wrote "The Depression Cure" and had done a lot of research on this.

I asked for specific tools to help me get started with dropping the obsessive thought patterns

1. exercise and getting out
2. good healthy sleep patterns
3. structure during our day
4. stop ruminating
5. fish oil

then we focused on how to stop ruminating:

1. learn to recognize when you start doing it (notice then decide)
2. use techniques to change falling into it when you recognize it such as:
- shift from inside your head to the outside world
- for a big thing : step outside or put an ice cube on wrist or temple - makes the brain shift it's focus
- talk out loud
- deep breathing
- engage in an activity - e.g.. go clean a drawer
- move to a different setting
- write down your thoughts (max. 5 mins)
- limit ruminating for 5 mins (that includes talking about it, posting about it, crying about it)

then i asked her - how does one get through some big thing - like finding out WAS was with ow for 10 days.

that led to the interesting discussion of SELF-REGULATING. to learn to self regulate one's emotions so that no matter what the 'bomb' is we should learn to not be overcome by it and let it take us down the hole.

SELF REGULATION IS MY RESPONSIBILITY.

i know that these are really obvious things, but i needed a reminder and thought it may help some others too.

we talked a bit about how we have to retrain our brains to stop these cycles.

we didn't have time to go really deeply into the anxiety issues - but i think that just starting to do these things will give me a chance to get to dealing with that.

hope this helps someone else too. sometime i feel that the simplest solutions that are right under my nose are the ones that elude me the most.

so happy for all you've done. It always seems to me that right after a lot of turmoil you can have a MASSIVE breakthrough. You've done a lot of hard work and it's showing in several areas.

When you are calm, confident, and happy others are attracted to that which is what that guy saw!

Quote:

so the goal for me now, is to focus on the patterns i see that muck us up, and find a way to change them. i feel as if i really achieved something today in one of our most sensitive issues.

This may be semantics but I just wanted to point out that you said patterns that muck US up and find a way to change them. Your only job is to find a way for you change your behaviour and how you might be mucking things up. Don't take responsibility for the entire sitch or pattern. Just like you saw today one persons shift can cause the other person to change their behaviour.

Thank you so much for the wisdom from your IC and the letter from your friend. I have bookmarked both of them. Very very helpful!

Zig there's a lot of great stuff from your IC session in there. The fish oil one is also interesting! Thank you for being willing to share this.

i know Brit - i thought about that - they do muck US up - and i never understood why until i saw MY pattern and changed that. when i changed the other patterns i was focusing completely on myself - only thinking about why i had to change for myself - sincerely.

but this was the first time, i saw that who i handled it would completely change OUR interaction - and that's why if felt like such an achievement for me. it still came back to me - figuring out where i was still being the fixer, but when i actually got it, it was so simple, that i immediately saw how it could change US.

this one i didn't see in the context of "trying to save our marriage', i saw it in the process of coming to terms with fighting the idea that h was going to be in my life no matter which way this ended - and i was simply damned if i was going to function this way any longer. i think it came from a place of despair that i've carried for so many years on this issue.

When you are calm, confident, and happy others are attracted to that which is what that guy saw!

yes, brit - you hit it on the nail; - that's the explanation for what happened, and now when i read what you wrote, i see it in all my interactions these days - people seem to be drawn to me in ways that i've never known before, even when i am being really emotional.

even the guy at the applecare help desk - by the time i got off the phone with him we were practically flirting !!

i'm glad you pointed that out - that was is more than my initial reaction which was "am i attracting someone else into my life" which was worrying me a little!!

thanks for the encouragement - and you're right - sometimes the huge turmoil brings the inner movement and breakthrough - now i just have to learn to do it so that i don't have to put everyone else through while i go through it.

you're welcome vera - the fish oil - his theory is that humans are evolutionally not all that far from the hunting/gathering stage and that our bodies need this still

IC gave me a good source for it - hope it's ok to post it here. she said she paid about $7/month for it as opposed to $20-25. i haven't checked it out yet but here's the place:

vitacost dot com (that's the website)

these are the details of what this guy researched and chose as the best one if you want to source it elsewhere
mega efa's
2/day
1000 mg EPA/500 mg DHA
Molecularly Distilled

h brought s and his friend over - he really looked as if he wanted tot talk, so i let us talk a few minutes about s and then turned around and walked into the house.

it was hard to do - as i have taken opportunities always to allow the conversation to go on - i could really sense he wanted to stay for a while. when he sees me doing that he gets all officious that he has to get going in response.

i saw him go to the back and get some stuff from the shed - it got me all ready to cycle back into my "i should go out and set a boundary" but instead i told myself "this is part of accepting that this marriage is over - and when i see signs of it, let it just confirm it further"

did take me a while to cycle out of it - but i did this goofy thing that really worked - i had to make s lunch so i recited the details of every little thing that i was doing while i did it - i'm peeling the carrots, peel 1, peel 2 peel 3 - literally!!

i started to do it out of desperation i swear - gosh , anything that works and it helped - ALOT

Originally Posted By: zig

so i let us talk a few minutes about s and then turned around and walked into the house.

Wow... I found that to be the hardest thing ever to do!! Congrats Zig!! Hope you are proud!!

Zig do not beat yourself up about coming here to vent or counting carrot peels LOL

This board has been a lifeline to me in some very crazy times. The times I've refreshed my page begging there to be a response with a bit of guidence. It's what it's here for. All of us understand what it's like when our family and friends don't. Or hate seeing us going through all these emotions that they just want it to end.

I say anything you can do to get your mind off of unhelpful thoughts is a good thing. I still have random bad thoughts...but I don't feel that horrible lost feeling anymore which is nice.

i did that a lot for months , and then thinking that it wasn't working, changed it to more relaxed and welcoming - now i realize that's harder for me, and so switching back - oh hell i don't know - i'm getting to the point where it's changing for me

before i did it to "DB". today i did it because i don't care to spend all that much time with him. my time is precious right, and frankly how much return on my investment am I getting here?

zero, baby, zero!!!

from now on i'm only investing in the co-parenting thing.

if i can't figure out the basic economics here - how the heck will my little business be successful?

on the other hand - i have spent the entire afternoon quaking a bit - am trying to work through it and "manage" the rising feelings.

after i read sparky's suggestion on the paradox and watched that "lose hope" segment on youtube - i'm going through it on the next level - ouch ouch ouch - actually it feels similar to the way i felt in the first weeks - except this time, there's so much more knowledge and a tiny scrap of wisdom to accompany it.

thanks sparky - if you're reading this. it was timely for me - in the sense that i'm ready to be there - in more ways than i did before.

thanks grace

oh brit - how you've managed to get to this point where you are in such a short amount of time puts me in awe.

we discussed w/ IC today that it's possibly taking me so long because i have some serious childhood issues that never got resolved AND am going through this process not just for this marriage but the one before. ( i was pregnant with s while it was ending - so i have a big mess that needs working through - and that one had it's whole set of problems that i didn't even know existed!!)

so as i joked - double everything!!

i'm not beating up myself at all - about finding that system to help me - i was glad to take anything that works - even for a few seconds.

i know i'm not in the greatest place at this time frame like most people are, but you know - i've even come to accept that it's not about timing , it;s about just allowing things to happen at their own time. i'm beginning to suspect, that this might take me quite a while to get through and to be okay with that (meaning my own healing)

can't wait to get to the place you describe - where it's random - sounds wonderful

thanks brit

ps friday is always a bit tough for me - when s comes back it's actually somehow easier when i'm on my own - have to change that so it's the same all the time and getting better and better each week

I think maybe you should take some time to NOT concentrate on your growth, R, etc. It sounds counter productive. But I find when I exercise, when I get out, working etc it made it better because I wasn't constantly thinking about it.

i know brit - what doesn't help is that i work at home and so i'm sort of reminded of it all the time

i've changed the rooms around quite a bit - and that helps, but there are still parts of the house that were the old house - i need to get to each place where i'm ready to deal with each space - part of the process.

i actually can't wait until he gets the rest of his stuff out - i'm almost to the point where i am capable of starting to box his stuff up. i'm imagining it all as only my stuff here

i will try to take your advice - i'm trying too hard, i know - it's just pouring out - can't seem to stop the flow since it started

No don't stop the flow...I just remember one day I thought I'm not going to read self help books today or think about the sitch I'm just going to do me stuff I think it's balance but if your mind is just circling and circling then I understand it's really hard.
I don't how I got here but I didn't think I would even a week or two ago so don't worry it will happen.
Making the space yours is a great idea. I need to do that to my room only place I haven't well his stuff is gone but it's just furniture nothing on the wall not inviting or cozy I need to change that.
There was a time when I couldn't even concentrate on work and now I get lost in work in a good way and realize that I've been being so productive I haven't thought about the sitch!
It will happen because you want it to!

There was a time when I couldn't even concentrate on work and now I get lost in work in a good way "

i'm already having those, but then i get scattered

i like what you said at the end = that it will happen because i want it to

YES!! i really really want it to, now

thanks brit:)

off to gal in a bit - with my good friends - she's had a really rough day - first week back to work after surgery, and her h and i just got off the phone after planning the menu and making a cook out happen.

it felt a bit odd, i have to say, but it's good - the kids can play and when it cools off after we eat, he and i will take them to a park to play frisbee -i'm the one who wants to - i can count on one hand how many times i've played in my life - it's so much fun - i'm terrible but love the feeling of running really hard after it!! i hope she wants to come, but it's hard for her to sit in odd places.

she was going to teach me to skate this summer - but had to have surgery instead and has to wait for several months through rehab before she can again - can't wait!!

hope you have a great evening too:)

((( )))
zig

Just a moment to stop in here for a sec while D9 is still sleeping...

Naw, zig... I was not teasing...

You did do great on the 180.

What I hope you would find was that while we can be proud of you, it is YOU that needs to be proud of you, regardless of what anyone thinks... although we DO need external validation from time to time, that is not always available (for one reason or another).

So always be sure that if you believe you did well... own it and self validate...

Your IC sounds great and gave awesome suggestions to help you. While what she said may be obvious, she doesn't know what other info you are getting and... sometimes that second opinion can help us understand what we've already heard from other sources. Same things said in a different way can sometimes be the difference between understanding... and REALLY understanding...

Be well!

And like your IC suggested...

GET OUT AND GAL.

thanks KD - and so sweet of you to take the time.

about self-validating. yes, i was definitely proud of myself AND noticing that i wanted some external validation - it was already there - in h's actions, by him responding differently than usual.

and i didn't see that either. i am NOT saying that his behavior/response was the most important thing here - it's difficult to explain - but the RESULT should have been enough.

i did want to "indulge" a bit - and saw myself doing it, and in the seeing of it understood just that little more how i could make the shift within myself to what you are pointing out.

i really think it was a case of 'can someone else make me feel just a little better for a few minutes because i'm tired of doing that all by myself for so long"

i really really am proud of me - haven't felt so "successful" for a really long time - and it was such a small/ large thing.

i am doing that tonight GAL- and part of my gal this weekend is to box up some of h's stuff and put them in the garage - just start to make some further inroads into really making this space my own. i'm tired of his stagnant left over presence here = it makes the energy in my home heavy

i've already made some huge changes but there are "pockets" around the house that still hold his presence heavily (it's symbolic, because it's the same way in my mind ), and as i go through each step of the letting go emotionally in stages, it seems as if i become capable of cleaning each area physically in the same way.

i have mixed feelings about packing away his stuff - would prefer he did it, and went through that process himself. but he's refusing to - keeps post poking it - every few months. how do you think i should handle it, FOR MYSELF?

i suspect the answer is - do what you feel like doing zig. well i feel like moving his stuff out of my space, but i DON"T feel like doing the work for him!!

any suggestions how to work around that paradox?

thanks KD

hope you have a great weekend

zig

well, how about putting his "stuff" in large, plastic lawn bags? you could just throw it in them and not have to really pack. it would get it out of your house. at least, some of it.

It is only that YOU FEEL you are doing it FOR your H.

In truth, you are doing it FOR YOU.

The consequences of your actions, regarding how they affect H...

Is really irrelevant for you...

Hope that makes sense...

D9 is now awake. Have a great GAL time!

the "stuff" that i'm mostly referring to is ceramics - we are both ceramic artists - simply can't throw that stuff in a bag. and a lot of it is extremely fragile.

so that's my little 'resistance" that i have to work through.

the other thing is that those pieces are important to me too - ceramics brought us together and we still connect on that level really deeply - it's work we brought into from before we met and that we acquired together or actually made and fired together.

well i will allow myself to do what's needed when the time is really right for me - the fact that i'm even thinking about it in those terms shows strongly that i still have to work through something

thanks though -scared silly. when he packed and moved out he took every last scrap of his personal stuff - but left all the house stuff, all the papers, and his tools.

he's been taking tools over 10 months as he needs them, but can't deal with the ceramics and boxed up stuff. he'll get it when he's ready...

i need to get detached enough where the presence of that stuff DOESN'T bother me - that would be the key here, i would say, more than - get rid of it right now this very minute, because it's presence is bothering me. that's the same as saying come back right now because your absence is bothering me

wow, i think i just got one step closer to understanding detachment

oh, how slowly we learn what stuff really means

zig

just had the greatest evening with my friend - went to a Darrel Scott concert -just him and his guitar - really intimate setting - huge emotional energy - never experienced that kind of thing before. Amazing!

i actually bought a CD - and i think i'm going to suggest that s give it to h for fathers' day. it is absolutely beautiful. i needed to get something for s to give, and this might be it. i will let s decide though. he may want to give something else. i'd like h to have it, though.

this was actually at the smaller side venue of the big concert hall - and they have a West Side Folk Fall Festival - with 4 concerts in the fall - and we're going to get the season tickets - big 180 for me - would never have thought of doing something like that before - but even more so - it's the first time i WANTED to do something in the future not caring whether h would be around or not.

the guy who organizes this is the one who does the radio jazz show and folk music show on NPR - so real good artists and great music

aah, the music tonight - i had tears running down my cheeks - that guy has been through some stuff - no one could play or sing like that without having been through some serious inner growth. it just made me more aware that everyone goes through something large that propels them to grow, and that this is just my turn - not anything more, not anything less

to even have the opportunity to find out what this type of inner journey is about - oh, we are very special people indeed to be given that gift.

beautiful music really soothes and nourishes us - i hope that when things feel really bad that all of us could remember to turn some music on that could touch us and remind us that there is a bigger picture than the one we seem so deeply entangled in right now.

zig

Why do you want H to have the CD? It sounds like the concert was a very personal emotional exp for YOU?

Glad you had such a nice time at the concert.

Now my foam noodle 2x4: Last summer I saw a movie that I thought H would like, and he might have. When it came on Netflix I wanted to send him the link so he could watch it. I'm so thoughtful.

The real reason? There was a message in the movie I wanted him to get. After asking advice here, I didn't send the link.

Remember the Trojan horse?

Let S come up with a gift for H. That's a great idea.

right right - 2 x 4 received.

i was aware of it labug!! the message.

you guys are up early on a sunday!!

yes, that cd is staying with me

s can chose a present. we've always done that in the past - gone together to get something for h -he's usually loved it. i already asked s about it and his answer was a bit odd -" let's give h (still calls him by his name) a day off'

i asked him what he meant - and he replied - let's give him a day off from working - he's working really hard on that house, he needs a day off.

odd child!

i seem to be getting an earful of details about what is going on there - from s as well as his friends. everyone seems to have a great need to make sure i know everything!!
maybe it's the universe's way of suppling me with the materials i need to fulfill the part of the stockman paradox that says face the harsh, brutal realities of your situation. the other part i have to come up with myself!

thanks brit and labug- you guys are looking out for me.

hope you have a great sunday -

zig