http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2247680&page=1Here's my last post from the previous thread:
Woke up this morning. Cried some more. Thought a lot about what everyone has said here.
I look at my actions and I'm not proud for several reasons. But I think many of us can say that here. Rarely anything done during the break up of a marriage in the heat of emotion is done in a way that you can look back and hold your head up. My H did it as best he could and he certainly did it.
He held it all in. Did nothing. Said nothing. He did that way before we split up which led to him resenting me, being cold, impatient, distant sometimes outright nasty but in a P/A way and me acting out to get any reaction from him.
I've stopped coping with alcohol and male attention. I've started to take a look at my faults/issues. I don't want to be the person I was in the M, or how I dealt with the problems, or how I acted in the split.
I don't want to ever burden him with my regret, hurt, shame, confusion, sadness, or unrequited love. He kept saying this isn't fair and I think this is what he meant. I get it. It's mine. All those things listed above are mine. I have to deal with them. None of them are his fault anymore than the entire breakdown of our marriage was his fault. We both played a part.
I truly honestly don't know anymore if there will be a chance for us. I have thought so for the past few months. But now...I'm not so sure. He is swiftly advancing his new relationship, he believes there are things he won't get past with us, he doesn't recognize anything he did wrong just that we didn't work. He remembers more of the bad than the good. I think I need to accept that.
Hi Brit
I have followed your sitch with interest as mine has developed and I can say that I truly feel for you right now.
Once realisation hit home you have worked tremendously hard to rectify your mistake - everyone makes mistakes and you should try to let go of the guilt you are currently feeling.
As a LBS, I can sympathise with your new found position and the torture that comes with the realisation of the errors we make as individuals within a relationship that ultimately leads to its breakdown.
This is a very steep learning curve, life is about continuous learning and improving ourselves from the mistakes we make and the decisions that map our lives.
You have held yourself together admirably and I can only commend you on your behaviour in recent weeks and months - it appears that your H is caught in the honeymoon period of a new relationship.
Ask yourself this, has he reflected sufficiently to improve himself or has he taken the same person into a new relationship to reduce the hurt he felt?
At this particular moment when he looks at you he probably feels hurt and does not seem to have got past what he probably perceived as a betrayal on your part - the new woman has not hurt him (yet) in such a deep way and you have to accept that right now he is probably very very wary of you.
I know that may seem hard to hear.
I think you may have to let go, for now, he has stated that timing is everything and probably does not trust the changes he sees right now - it will all still be very raw.
Keep improving, keep the changes going - but do it for yourself.
If he comes back then good, if not then you will find that these changes will serve you well in any new relationship you may find moving forward.
One word of advice - do not seek solace in the arms of another man until you feel ready.
Could do with some advice from the other side of the fence on my thread if you have time.
Thoughts are with you. :-)
Brit,
I'd really like to discuss this with you later this evening. I am having problems with being able to post, but maybe things will be taken care of by the time I get off work. The reasons I would like to discuss this is that I am on the other end of what you are saying, but my WAW doesn't want to take any responsibility for walking away and giving up. I am the one having the problems of moving on and I am the one that doesn't know if there will be a chance for us.
I've stopped coping with alcohol and male attention. I've started to take a look at my faults/issues. I don't want to be the person I was in the M, or how I dealt with the problems, or how I acted in the split.
Ok. Now the hard part begins. The real work as we say here.
We know what happened. You hvae taken the first step and gained the awareness of what you did and what part it had in the demise of your M.
Now
WHY did you do this? Why did you choose to behave this way?
I truly honestly don't know anymore if there will be a chance for us.
So is this where you quit? Is this the hill you die on? What are you prepared to do for your M. For yourself. If you are not guaranteed it can be saved?
he believes there are things he won't get past with us, he doesn't recognize anything he did wrong just that we didn't work. He remembers more of the bad than the good. I think I need to accept that.
How long has is it taken you to come to see your part in this and own it? Until you woke up in tears with the truth of it?
It is hard business growing up. But everyone is capable of it.
He doesn't know that for himself
and he doesn't believe that of you ... right now.
Why are you doing this?
How much of his rejection will you take?
You failed in your vows in the past, what is it that is holding you to them this time?
Hi Brit
I've been following your threads since you started posting here, but I've held back on saying anything because you were getting so much good advice from the vets.
Now I know your sitch is different from mine, but I can see some similarities & being a LBH I can kind of relate to your H's side of things. My W had an emotional affair, which led to a physical affair, she denies sleeping with him, but she may well have done. To complicate things this OM is her dance partner, who she still dances with every Friday night.
Now with your sitch, you initiated the separation because you'd had enough, your H although may have been unhappy also, was not self aware of his unhappiness. When you slept with a CW, you not only cheated on him, you hurt his pride further through who you did it with.
I can tell you from my own experience the thought of your W, with another man, changes the way you see them (it did for me- anyway). ML for men is largely what brings us closer to women emotionally, it's a closeness, a connection an expression of how a couple feel about each other. It's special.
Now when you were in WAW mode, he would have literally went through the mill, felt worse than he ever did, been so vulnerable, every action you took then, would have hurt him & it would have took a lot for him to get back on his feet. He's scared of going through that again Brit.
You have to tell yourself that the R you had with your H as it was is over. You ended it, he moved on & now you regret your decision. The real hard work starts now & to be fair, you've already started working hard on yourself. But forget about the old R with your H that is gone, if you guys get back together it will be a new R, with dating, building it up from the bottom.
I know you're really down at the moment and you've also had to hear a lot of harsh things on here over the past few days, but I know you are strong enough to deal with it, overcome these issues & be that Brit that you want to be. Just take it slowly, smaller steps and keep posting.
Bill
Thanks Bill I really needed to hear that. I agree with what you said....it did change the way he looked at me. You are right as well it will/would be a new R. Even he's said that. That it would have to be a new love story.
Now when you were in WAW mode, he would have literally went through the mill, felt worse than he ever did, been so vulnerable, every action you took then, would have hurt him & it would have took a lot for him to get back on his feet. He's scared of going through that again Brit.
The entire time he said nothing. He supported me. He was kind. He never let me see him cry. (except for once when he was really really hungover and had had a horrible night) He always said he wanted me to be happy and only wanted my happiness. in this respect he's shown me what he wants me to give him. Because I feel so low I wonder if I actually have it in me. If I am that good of a person. I really want to be.
WHY did you do this? Why did you choose to behave this way?
I don't have an answer for this .... not right now. And actually in a way that's a change. Because I think in the past I would try to explain myself...I don't know the answer to this not yet. I want to find it out. and I want to stop. I want to have a R with integrity. Because I don't know that I've ever done that.
So is this where you quit? Is this the hill you die on?
No I think this is where I stop having the expectation that we'll get back together. I think this is where I pulled off the rose colored glasses that showed him as loving dependable spouse with no issues and me who just needed to show that I wasn't pushy. There is so much more.
How long has is it taken you to come to see your part in this and own it?
a while. A long while. Maybe not until yesterday? Maybe not until now. And maybe everyday from now I'll recognize a bit more about what I did and what could have been done better and how I can be better.
I see him repeating old patterns. That confident guy who moved out with proclamations of being independent, making his own decisions, and not leeching off of anyone has slipped into old patterns. Looking at a GF to solve his problems, borrowing money from his mom, not living alone for more than a few months. I know deep down he doesn't want to be this person that it makes him feel bad inside. So he may wake up eventually...or not. Those all are his feelings and his deicisons. Which is what I meant when I listed those things and said that I have to accept that. I have to accept: not rage against, not try to convince, not hope and pray he changes his mind. I have to accept that right now he is advancing his R, he doesn't think he can get over my actions, he doesn't see his role in our R problems, etc.
I don't want to repeat my old patterns. Whether it's 2 years from now or 10 years from now I don't want to have the same problems with him or someone else.
Everyone here says it you can only control yourself. But you think yeah, but he might listen to me, or if he only saw this or if I did this. No I get it. I have to accept this is how he feels. And dwelling on those things that I can't change doesn't help me change.
How much of his rejection will you take?
that's my fear. I don't know.
You failed in your vows in the past, what is it that is holding you to them this time?
He told me yesterday that I'm his best friend and that no one knows him like I do and no one knows me like he does. And that I couldn't imagine how much it hurts him that I'm upset, that he can't fix it, and he's the cause of it. That he wishes he could clone himself and that guy could go be with me because he can't.
It's partly this. This attitude that I never held. And seeing him continue with this attitude contrasted to my actions in the past makes me feel like I would be a fool to say that I want to D this man. I never saw this man for the last two years of our M. I didn't think he was there anymore. He was cold and distant and I pushed him away too. It was a circle. I thought that's who he was because he never saw the problem when I tried to talk about it. He was convinced we were fine. But I see him again. He is still good and caring underneath. He still cares. I thought he DIDN'T care when he never said anything when I was dating or going out with friends or when I said I didn't think it was working...now I see it differently.
I told him that I want to be a better person in our situation and for myself. That I can't change the past. That I'm trying to listen to what he's asking of me (like with the sandwich) instead of pushing forward with what I think he wants. (this was a pattern we fell into not only because of my selfishness but also when I was doing anything to please him i would second guess what he'd say because he'd sometimes just say what he thought I wanted..it was a big mind game) I told him that I want to learn from our mistakes.
He thinks this is a stage. That he got through it and I will too.
WHY did you do this? Why did you choose to behave this way?
a bit of gardening with no phone and I think I've hit the tip of the iceberg.
I sabotage. I identified that earlier in a post about me having a good detached week leading to positive response from H that got me....right into crazy neurotic town. Why? because I sabotage?
And why do I do that? I was talking to a friend today about my weight loss (42 pounds as of today) I told her I was always naturally thin and then I was so unhappy in my marriage and other things that happened it piled on suddenly and I never got rid of it until now. I wanted to do but didn't and it always seemed like other people could lose weight but not me.
Why? because for some reason I don't think good things happen to me. I don't think I deserve to be loved. I don't feel that deep down I'm worthy of happiness. So if things are going good, I sabotage them because I know they won't continue to go good.
I also know I have control issues because I have a fear of vulnerability. Well I realized that during the change of heart. When he said it can't be on Brit's schedule, it made me realize I always have a schedule. In fact one of the reasons I loved him when we met is that he was so laid back, up for any schedule (with in reason)
I was scared he was going to leave from day one. Not an intense fear but a small nagging that gnawed away until part of me thought the sabotage was easier than the vulnerability. At first it was pulling away, steeling myself for the possibility, the not trying, the not planning things. We used to love to go camping. And I mentioned to him yesterday, you know I can point to when it went down hill it's when we stopped going camping.
Now I suppose the easy thing to say is that because of my past actions I don't deserve him. I never really did. And now he's found someone that does. Just wrap up all my self fulfilling prophecies in a big red bow and say there...you were right. Because there were times when I sobbed to myself about how I couldn't make him happy and maybe someone else could. But none of that will stop me from repeating this pattern in the future not just with him but with other things.
Even when I have a success at work or something I sorta feel like I haven't really earned it. That people are charmed by me but I don't really know what I'm doing. Or I'm quick to discount what it is I've accomplished as in if I did it can't be that big of a deal.
Ahhh Brit, I could have written that myself and probably have...
Keep working on you.
Become the Brit you were meant to be, not the one you thought everyone wanted.
It does get easier, really, it does.
look at the pain. why do you sabotage. i know for me, its because im comfortable with the pain. i dont like it, but im used to it. i know what to expect. looking inside yourself can be a very uncomfortable place to look. but ig you do it, recognize what you see and deal with it, it has to get easier to look. at least i hope so.
(((big hugs)))
i see myself in your last post.. feeling unloveable, controlling and planning to stay safe, never allowing myself to accept success, nightmares that my W would leave me during the best of our M, pushing her away to stay safe..
i am trying to learn to love myself, to value myself by starting to take care of myself so that i do not get so scared and dependent in the future.
what will be your steps brit to focus on you and your growth? you have already begun... taking ownership is the plunge... the rest are mere steps.
thank you for being vulnerable here, for sharing the things we all get scared to say to ourselves, much less others...
thank you for helping me realize that i have more layers of honesty to get through..
one thing I tell myself... the time is necessary, bc if W were to come back now, we would fall into the same patterns.. i need this time to grow and change so that, if we R, we can create something new and better..
Brit those are some pretty big things to get out. Congrats on your self-realizations. Keep working on you. Knowing what you need to focus on is most of the battle.
Thank you Grace and Vera. I really want to be a better person for me. I have never said those things. I only talk to two people about H and I'n not as honest as I am here.
I don't feel panicky or anxious about tomorrow when I'll see him when he picks up S. I don't want to sabotage the friendly terms we have now. He says he's my best friend but I don't think we're on friend terms when we're this hurt. When I said I accepted those things I think I truly have. I have accepted that we may not be together. I have accepted that has moved on. I have to make sure that I'll be together and my emotional state the past 24 hours shows I have a ways to go.
I am (oddly) excited about healing these things that I think I've done in all my relationships. I'm not going to concentrate just on problems with him but try to see what I've done large scale.
I did some googling and read a quote that said the relationship you have with yourself lasts a lifetime. I really want to like me, be proud of me, respect me. How can I expect anyone to ever do that if I don't?
well mark that down to one person I tell this stuff too.
A friend of mine sent me a text to say...so he hasn't changed. People don't change. Why change yourself for someone? Find someone who fits your personality better and be happy with them.
that's not really how I see things at all. I think if you repeat mistakes you will continue to be unhappy no matter who you're with.
I feel like I may have been putting him on a pedestal for the last few months. All I did was convince myself he was horrible, then all I did was see the good stuff. I think I'm finally looking at this from solid footing. Yesterday hurt but it forced me into reality.
I made a lot of mistakes but I'm so committed to not making those again in my life. I'm going to try to identify when I sabotage myself and work on loving myself.
I have been afraid of my financial situation and today I looked into a few things and made a plan of action to look after myself.
I've decided that since I have trouble sleeping..I just wake up really early and can't get back to sleep. I'm going to start going for morning walks with the dog.
This is why you don't get friends to help you with this.
"People don't change."
Yes they do. We see it time and time again.
"Why change yourself for someone? Find someone who fits your personality better and be happy with them."
This is the naive thinking that destroys relationships. Relationships are constantly evolving. There is not one relationship that I know of that doesn't go through a rough patch.
I think if you repeat mistakes you will continue to be unhappy no matter who you're with.
That is gold. I can only imagine a world where that is commonly understood and prevented.
The world is all about change. The amazing thing is, it's not just people that encourage us to change... our environment (including physical, which precludes age necessary changes, as well) requires us to change. It is our nature TO change, by God's design or by Darwin's theories...
People are in constant change... it is only those things that we hold dear that we choose NOT to change... but that's a choice... not some biological aspect of humanity... otherwise, we'd all be the same...
I missed you Kaffe.
Beautifully written, intelligent, and inspiring.
Thank you!
Oh and Mr Bond, yes she's single.
I have been afraid of my financial situation and today I looked into a few things and made a plan of action to look after myself.
Good for you! I know that was a turning point for me. I was always the one who did the finances, BUT to actually see it in black and white telling me I'd be okay made it easier
don't want to repeat my old patterns. Whether it's 2 years from now or 10 years from now I don't want to have the same problems with him or someone else.
And let's have a toast to the death of the old marriage.
I think you are on the right track don't you think?
Now it's not that easy to just write those words.
You have identified things about yourself you don't like. Things you want to change.
You have to kill those things. Hunt them down and kill them. Every day look at them. And kill them.
What are those things? Put them here. So you can look at them plainly. So you will recognize them when they surface in your life.
Good step for you.
Getting to this point. Keep going.
And let's have a toast to the death of the old marriage.
I think you are on the right track don't you think?
Yes I do! I'm not in bits for the first time in 3 months I'm not feeling crazy emotional anymore.
I know we all say it but I've accepted it now. If it's over it's over and there's nothing I can do. All I can do is work on me and look at me.
What are those things? Put them here.
In the past 7 months I've dated we've all talked about this. On a few occasions I've had first dates with men that intimidated men. We're talking one who owned his own software company and had frequent dealings with overseas bands in the Carribean and another who had two companies and was head of development for a national company. And they were active, involved with their kids, good looking, funny....so what did I do in 10 or 15 mins I told them a crazy story about something I'd done in past....something that has no bearing on who I am now. Later I was like WHY did I do that? Because I was intimidated and thought they'd reject me anyway so I told them something to shock them and push them away. I'm not going to do that. I am good enough for anyone. I didn't grow up with money (H did) but I don't need to be intimidated by it.
Dealings with H:
He texted me to say he'd be over this morning to pick up S. He got here an hour earlier than he needed to. He played with the dog and chatted to S. He asked me for ibuprofen, he had a hangover. (it's very out of character for him to drink especially on a week night)
I had the news on and the weather presenter was doing the report from a place we'd visited. He said hey we've been there. And S said where is that? He said remember we went and I took all those pictures. I got loads of you and your mother. Your mom was getting sick of me taking pictures in the garden. (I laugh) He says those are some of my favorite pictures of you. You were right on the verge of amusing me and getting angry. You look so cute when you're angry you were all like this and made a face.
(I smiled and said NOTHING) He said all this very warmly and fondly. It didn't really affect me. I noticed this and wondered what he was trying to achieve by telling me this story but I said nothing and it didn't really make me feel warm and fuzzy. Just a bit confused as to why he was saying this.
He commented on my weight loss...my jeans are baggy. He brought up a lot of stuff I'd put on FB. Just random things...the film me and S watched last night. I didn't initiate any conversation. I just didn't feel like I should I work to make his stop off here enjoyable. (is that the right thing or the wrong thing?)
He told me he'd been driving thru xx city last night (where she lives now and where I'd mentioned moving to lower my rent) and was thinking about "you and where you'd end up" I said where I'd end up? thanks And he said "you know what I mean...it's just that there's some nice parts. But you only have to go a block or two and it goes downhill" I told him that I'd decided I only needed xx amount to be a bit more comfortable and that I had a plan of talking to my boss, etc. (from other clues he said I gathered he went to GF's last night, got drunk, spent the night there, came here in the same clothes then changing and going to work. It's THURSDAY. Grow Up)
He said I've got xx amount in my pocket, the gas light is on and it's 4 days until payday. Rock and Roll Lifestyle and he was laughing. I opened my mouth to say something and closed it. He said what? And I said "I was about to offer some unsolicited advice and changed my mind" He said no say it.
So I said "Your bills actually went down. You should be okay if you were to budget and not drive so much (he has a sports car that has horrible gas mileage) Make a budget have a look at what you have to spend. You could do it"
He said yeah it would just mean....not doing anything.
I said "just more nights in." (This is a man who did nothing when he was in a M. Now he's got a GF he's out doing stuff to the point that he can't afford to pay his own bills so he's going to move in with her.) "Plus I think you'll feel (I wanted to say good about yourself but I didn't) a real sense of satisfaction when you stick to a budget and you get to the end of the month and you think I did it all on my own."
I showed him a picture of a car I'd seen that I liked that I didn't know what it was. He didn't either and he was said "look at you getting into station wagons. Very good taste. I really like that. It's really cool" (I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing but he seemed surprised that I was looking at that car)
I think this is the first time we've interacted that I was really distant. I wasn't super friendly, I certainly wasn't flirty. He asked if I was coming with them and I said "no, I think S wants you to drop him at school after." Last week I would have gone. I would jumped at the offer to spend more time with him. Not now.
I realized this morning that he met her at the end of Feb, moved out of mine for a few months and is talking about moving in with her. In 2005 he met me at the end of Feb, moved out of his ex's for a few months, and moved in with me at the end of May. We got married that Dec. I know that our R was a lot different than his ex's. But it makes you feel like you don't matter that much, you're pretty replaceable, maybe your R didn't mean that much because he's moved on so quickly....then I realized that's how he felt when I told him about CW. For him the hurt and betrayl came with the phsyical for me it's the emotional committment. So I think I understand it a little bit better.
Brit
I think you are hitting it out of the ballpark. First I'll comment on your H. You mentioned you used to play mind games with him, and he'd just say things to make you happy. Yep total beta nice guy. That's where I was. W could talk me out of my favorite dish out of a restaurant. Some books believe that weird mind games like this are subconcious test from women to see if their men are still tough. Remember what my friend told me. "I want a man that can stand up to me, because he can stand up for me." Sounds like your husband routinely failed these, which led you to lose attraction. Him not putting you in your place for cheating on him probably made you lose even more respect for him. Which seemed to further solidify your WAW status.
Once you left he had no choice but to be the Alpha male again. As you mentioned you liked the independence. So did the other GF. Here's what gets me though is that IMHO for a recovering nice guy he is moving way too fast with this girl. So he's not asserting his independence, he is looking for someone else to become dependent to.
Reminds me of my brother in law. He was engaged 2 times before the first third one finally stuck. The lasted a little over 2 years, and all chances or reconciliation disappeared when his WAW found he had made a dating profile within days of her leaving. Then less than a year after his divorce he is engaged again.
On paper he is Mr Right, great career, huge house, not terrible looking, and always the center of attention at family gatherings, the oldest cousin held up for others to live up to.
My W describes him as self absorbed, selfish, and cold and distant. I think he's an overachiever looking for validation from others who throws temper when he feels he doesn't get the praise or attention he deserves.
Long story short less than a year after his divorce, and two broken engagements he seems to be once again looking for that woman to validate him and fill his void. Clearly he is not independent. I see your H doing much of the same. I think a guy in his sitch is possibly justified in exploring his options, but shacking up with another woman this soon shows that he is merely seeking a band aid, and may find himself with a new WAW somewhere down the line.
If that's the case Brit you may be dodging a bullet, by not ending up with him, and he is doing himself a disservice.
I think the best way to judge this is if he keeps plowing through this new relationship. If they get engaged in the next 9 to 12 months, I'd consider moving on as he clearly is looking for a substitute not a W.
Just my 2 cents, I really do hope your husband finds true independence, and is not just throwing up smoke signals until he finds another woman(or you) to grow dependent on.
He actually told me the other day Remember I used to tell you I used ex-GF a little bit for money? Yes this is kinda this way.
He had a GF that he was on and off for 5 years before we met, he wasn't way into her but she adored him and make his life a bit comfortable. They got back together once because she bought a house and as if put it lured him in. He's later referred to that as her buying him a house.
I can't offer him any of things. I think that I was the first R he had that was none of those things. For the first time he didn't have the power in the R. That's why he likes this girl who is less pretty. He likes being the better looking in the R. I had chalked up all those statements as him being young but he's not in his 20's anymore. He's 36!
I thought that he had found independence, that he was self-confident. But I don't think he was. I think he just stopped being reliant on me. I remembered yesterday on Tuesday he commented he'd found a shirt with tags on it, when did I buy that. (yeah I've been picking out his clothes since week 2 of our R) and I remembered that when she tagged him on FB in a shopping area someone commented "shoe shopping?" and he "actually we did go there" Because he needs his new GF to help him pick out shoes. I started cracking up laughing.
Yes I may have dodged a bullet. I really believe that he won't be happy until he handles his own bills, etc.He really hates that he has to borrow money, but he doesn't want to change his lifestyle. People have to decide for themselves when they're going to stop going round that mountain.
I have a pattern of men who need to be taken care of and I'm not doing that anymore!
I think she should be recognizing some of this. When they first started dating I know she was paying for a lot (she has a high paying job), they went to dinner with friends of his and his friend said he was paying. Apparently she kept elbowing him to pitch in or protest and he kept shhhh'ing her. I laughed and said she doesn't know you. It's not that he's tight but he never turns down anyone else offering to pay. She obviously felt uncomfortable in that position.
As far as him standing up to me for cheating. He knew I was dating/flirting/spending time with CW. He was nothing but supportive of that. yeah which hurt. I had already been cemented in my WAW status when he just didn't care/never got jealous about anything pre me leaving. I didn't tell him I'd slept with CW until after he met GF..
just thinking.....I remembered an issue with his ex GF where she FLIPPED out on him after we were married. It's a long complicated story and I remember at the time thinking she was controlling and crazy and because things weren't going her way she wasn't happy. I told him fine, we'll do it her way, rather than involve his parents just to get it done and move on that was the most important thing.
Looking back, she wanted him to do it and take responsibility not his parents. I didn't get why it was such a big deal to her as long it got done. But now I see she was so angry and resentful that he was going to have someone else solve his problems rather than doing it himself.
GB:
I think he's trying on old patterns because ours didn't work. He told me she reminded him of someone he'd been infatuated with before we met. Someone who is quite the opposite of me.(of course I hung out with this girl once after we started dating and he loved that I was more glamorous and quick witted and it cracked him up when she tried to be snide with me and I'd put her in her place) He'd joked that he needed to find someone who was just dumb and happy. I imagine, so he could be emotionally unavailable. He told me after he'd started seeing her that he didn't think he would/could ever love again.
So I think he's doing the old thing someone who is financially stable so he doesn't have to be. Someone who doesn't give him butterflies or intimidates him, but is interesting and logical rather than fun and pretty. He thinks this can make him happy and maybe he won't lose himself in this one. Maybe he's right, maybe it won't payoff and he'll decide he wants to learn to be emotionally available even if it means risking being hurt.
I used to worry that even if he decided these things he'd be too proud or too laid back to ever approach me with thoughts of piecing. Well I've decided that I don't want him if he does that. I also don't want someone who drifts. or someone who wants things: independence, confidence, a better job, a pay raise, financial indpendence from his family and doesn't go after them.
GB I remember a time that really solidified our relationship. He basically stood up for me in a difficult situation. In a sitch that I didn't even expect him to. (there's me feeling unworthy) I'd never heard him so angry, never heard him talk that way. I loved him so much that day. I knew he would never ever let me down. But my insecurities got the best of me and down the road I felt like he would leave me or worse be unhappy and just stay in the garage. I told him that...you would have just stayed in the garage and he said you're right.
Forgot to mention he used the phrase that something wouldn't happen "until we actually file for divorce" not if but until. Just made it seem inevitable and gave me a cold shudder to for him to use the words file for divorce.
We had a text exchange today about my medical results. Used the phrase "we'd be up to our neck in bills by now" I didn't know if I should point that out and was considering and then he double texted...that's new. I replied and said we huh? Nice to know you'd be paying my bills. and then replied to his other question.
Part of me just wanted to point out his syntax that he saw himself still "in the boat with me" I know I shouldn't read into subtext. And of course he didn't reply to that HAHA
now that S's appointments are out the way and I've had the info about health back I'm going dim. I'll still be friendly. I'm not going to sabotage the fact that he still wants to be my friend. I feel a lot more confident about assuming that role now that I'm not okay with some of his choices...because he's no longer the object of my desire (not at the moment) and he's no longer on that pedestal.
more journalling sorry guys....
someone on here to think of an emotion as a wave instead of bracing for it let it pass through it.
I've had quite a few moments of emotion lately. Sometimes I don't know why I'm crying. But instead of getting afraid, wondering when it will stop, saying I wish I didn't feel like this. Instead I quietly tell myself take a moment, breath, it's okay, of course you're sad, you're saying goodbye. You're allowed to be sad right now. You're free. You're okay.
I'm going out tonight to a comedy show with friends. It will be good to get my mind off everything for a little bit. I'm also reading Codependent No More. Wow, there's a lot of me in there.
((( )))
My IC told me to allow myself to cry and afterward, to do something nice to take care of myself. Hope you enjoy the comedy show!
Thank you. I had a really good time tonight. A few times my thoughts drifted to my sitch and then I thought you know what I'm not going there. All of this is a part of me but I have a lot of other parts too! Just enjoy this moment.
The one person I am now sharing things with is my sister who says she feels like I'm growing in leaps and bounds. It madee feel good. My growth can come of this. I will never know if H is truly happy in this new life for himself and every thing I want for him...I can't engineer happening. And maybe he doesn't want that for himself. I'm being his friend we had good interaction today. I didn't jump on the sentimental bandwagon when he started reminiscing and I didn't say anything about his relationship. Perhaps I shouldn't have brought up the whole "we" comment but I meant it in a pleasant tone.
My friend tonight asked me the status of the D. She doesn't know I had had a change of heart or that he'd even met someone I told her we were just leaving things for a bit. I did tell her he'd met someone and when she started asking she saw I was upset and said never mind better not to talk about that.
brit-
sounds like you had a good time. hope you got some laughs in. im smilin right now thinkin about a comedy show. i am happy for you. keep up the good work. what better way to GAL then to go see something funny
Brit, I haven't read all of your sitch but I did read the post you made on CV's thread and I think the part about your H changing (basically moving on) has really made me think. I think so many of us LBS's are wishing we COULD move on. Do you feel that the reason he did move on was because he found someone else? Or did that come later?
I'm sorry for what you're going through. I thank you for posting here, though, it is quite insightful.
I'm also reading Codependent No More. Wow, there's a lot of me in there.
Glad because I was going to recommend that.
Ok so you sabotaged your dates with seemingly good men.
Why do you feel unworthy of happiness? I am not saying they were the gates to heaven but you thought they might be, why? And why would you kill it?
Look at that question(s) again and again I am not asking what it appears I am asking on the first read.
Sometimes our subconcious takes the best care of us.
Is Brit the one who will turn her bloom to the sun that shines the brightest?
Where does your nourishment come from and why?
I'll have to think more about TG's post and questions
Jks when I look back now he didn't move on until he'd met someone he even told me that he felt like he'd been in an emotional funk for years. He met her and having a girl just like him for him made him feel amazing. So no he didn't find the strength to move on or shut the door from within. I see that now.
Why do you feel unworthy of happiness?
So I did some journalling off this site and started realising that he wasn't the only one who lost himself. When we met I had just gone through a period of rebuilding my self esteem and refinding my identity after losing a job that had for a long time defined me.
When he met I had decided that I was going to do all these things that I had previously not done because I'd been too busy working or had put off doing. I'd started doing them then we met and I kept it up all the way until I shifted from doing those things to do things I thought a family or a couple should do and got upset when he didn't react like I thought he should and then finally I stopped planning. okay that's all typical WAW cycle.
But I'd lost myself too, which is why I gained weight, needed attention, didn't trust myself, had to sabotage because I didn't think I should be happy.
There are things that cause me to feel like I'm "not good enough" stemming from past, how and where I grew up, things I did when I was young and didn't know any better we all have those things.
So I wrote a quick paragraph about myself as if I was someone looking from the outside in. I'm a pretty amazing person. I've accomplished so much in my life and I have a lot to be proud of. Yes I've had bumps along the way (I put all those in too) But we all mistakes. We all have regrets.
That part of me that feels unworthy was somehow happier when I was feeling unhappy, rejected, unloved, and like I didn't deserve a second chance at my M. That's not true. I don't even like the word deserve because it sounds like you're owed something.
That part of me doesn't even feel like I should have a friendship or give friendship with H. Because people like me don't get to be friends with their ex. We're not that well adjusted.
I'm not listening to that part of me anymore. I'm not putting myself thru the self-flagellation of the crying, the pity party, feeling unworthy, or not good enough.
Each day I will try to live my life in a way that at the end of the day I can look back and say I had fun doing x today, I found/saw the beauty in x today, and I'm proud of how I lived today.
As far as H goes, I'm detaching with love and that includes the worry. I have to detach from my regrets, from my fears about the future, from my opinion of his choices, from my once hopes and dreams for us and from my once shunning of them. When someone said let's toast the death of the old M....I get it now. All of that is in the past. How we related to each other is all there is. (I am not downplaying the fact that he may still have hurt, pain, sense of betrayal and loss when he thinks of me. But I now understand that there's not much I can do to change that in our current sitch)
I look at how I felt at the beginning of the month and I'm in a better place, the same way I was in a better place at the end of April than I was at the beginning and the same with March. I'll looking to build and build on that.
"As far as H goes, I'm detaching with love and that includes the worry. I have to detach from my regrets, from my fears about the future, from my opinion of his choices, from my once hopes and dreams for us and from my once shunning of them. When someone said let's toast the death of the old M....I get it now. All of that is in the past. How we related to each other is all there is. (I am not downplaying the fact that he may still have hurt, pain, sense of betrayal and loss when he thinks of me. But I now understand that there's not much I can do to change that in our current sitch)"
i really like this, brit. if both partners could do this, our "new" marriages could be so wonderful...
you sound so much better. i love your resiliency!
Thank you....I'm not going to lie. It isn't easy. But something happened yesterday when I went somewhere with friends. Unlike going somewhere with my son I didn't feel responsible for making the exp enjoyable. If I didn't feel like talking I was quiet and let someone else take up the slack. And I remembered the bigger world. My sitch was encompassing me...his R with his GF was encompassing me....WHY?
This book Codpendant no more is really helping me. I want to be and happy and whole. That's first. And everytime I think about him even when I think that I want to make amends or say I'm sorry or just be friendly I think. Am I doing this so he'll feel different about me? That's not supporting him as a friend that's manipulation. no.
He may never come back and that may or may not be something he will regret. I made my choices. I told him my feelings. There is nothing I can do but be supportive for him in whatever he chooses to do now. Which means not giving my opinion.
"Am I doing this so he'll feel different about me? That's not supporting him as a friend that's manipulation."
i need to remember this and practice it, too. it's so hard to do. maybe it will get easier the more i focus on GAL?
This book I'm reading is blowing my mind. You should really read it. I love this part on control where they say that if you hold too tightly to a situation not only could you be forcing the person to resist or redouble their efforts but you're stopping a higher power from being able to work or letting things take their natural course.
I also like the part where it says that someone else's actions isn't a reflection of you. if they do something horrible or embarrassing isn't say anything about you. Him moving on like this made me feel like our M wasn't a big deal. He's ready to shack up with the first girl he meets even though he's told me some not so warm things about her.....what does this say about him and my judgement that I was with him for so long? NOTHING. he's not who he was when I met him and neither am I.
it's very liberating.
Yes, letting go can be powerful.
. . . someone else's actions [are not] a reflection of you. if they do something horrible or embarrassing isn't say anything about you . . . . what does this say about him and my judgement that I was with him for so long? NOTHING. he's not who he was when I met him and neither am I.
Does that mean you like that? Haha
Yes Bug, today I went down to the river and sat for awhile and I felt peaceful. It doesn't means thoughts of my sitch didn't drift it but they weren't as consuming as before I was able to relax.
I don't know how it's happened but it has.
you impress me. maybe i will go somewhere and just sit. away from all this. some time for just me.
Dakota I will post on your thread but I think it's acceptance
Brit,
I love to wake up in the morning and read your posts. They challenge and inspire me to start my day. Thank you.
I have been thinking that there are, for each of us, several defining moments in our lives, which create the bulk of who we are and how we are in the world. For us here, this has the opportunity to be one of them and we can choose if it shuts us down or opens us up to ourselves and changes us.
I love how each day you approach your sitch with a heart and mind ready to change and grow. You help me start the day the same way. I am so grateful to you and for you.
Your comments about how you changed over time in your M spoke to me. I heard a psychologist say once that a M should be like a fruit salad instead of a smoothie, so that each person retains their individuality like the fruit does. I like that.
I hope you have a great day, Brit ((( )))
Each day I will try to live my life in a way that at the end of the day I can look back and say I had fun doing x today, I found/saw the beauty in x today, and I'm proud of how I lived today.
I am putting this quote up on my mirror today.
Thank you grace I'm thankfull for you as well!!
I totally 100% agree that there are moments that we look back and see changes. I want to look and say I'm so happy I stopped doing x or I'm so much happier now that I'm doing this.
I put that about each day because the idea of change can seem big and hard. But just each day saying I'm glad I did this. I'm proud that I stayed detached. I enjoyed myself today at the river, spending time with S, Taking joy in passing a group of elderly people having a picnic.
Before I would have been at home being resentful wondering what H and his GF were doing this weekend and being upset that I didn't have plans or someone to share the weekend with. Not now. I'll make my own plans and enjoy myself.
Before I would have been at home being resentful wondering what H and his GF were doing this weekend and being upset that I didn't have plans or someone to share the weekend with. Not now. I'll make my own plans and enjoy myself.
I want to get there. I felt like I was half way there and then quickly got pulled down again when my H told me that he was trying to find the right time to end things with OW. He got my hopes way up and deep down I had to believe it wasn't really true.
Feeling like I'm starting over again after 9 months of this...
Yeah I read your thread and he isn't being fair but none of our sitchs are. Did you read where mine has told me repeatedly that I'm prettier and more fun? He also admitted to me that he doesn't talk about their R and her good points to spare my feelings. So don't believe any of it. Plus who's to say he ends things and he doesn't want to come back?
An A is a symptom not the problem. If she left the country tomorrow, there would still be problems between you two. What were the things that were issues between you before you split? What would you want to see changed and what do you think you need to change? It's easy to fixate and blame the outside person.
Talked to a friend of mine last night who ended a 7 year R last year. She told me she went through everything I went through. She understood exactly what I was saying. She told me that a month ago a mutual friend was told by him that he regretted no doing MC not working on it more. But she'd already moved on and he never told her this.
She thinks that I will ultimately decide that I am better off and that he won't change. I don't know that to be true. She also said that she knows several men who decided they didn't want emotionally honest R and are quite happy with a w that doesn't want or need that.
I woke up twice from dreams about him. I tried to stop thinking about the sitch and get some rest. I pictured the stop sign. It's hard. One day we'll all heal. I refuse to be a bitter man hater with 10 cats. I want to heal, learn to be a better partner and grow old with someone.
Oh when I say moved on I mean in her heart. She has not moved on to a new R because she wanted to heal.
As an update my day is going really well. I did some meditation because I was feeling a bit anxious after dreams this morning and wanted to not think about him. I felt much more relaxed after that.
I did some gardening and it's a good feeling of accomplishment doing work that you can see results.
I listened to some music I love that H would have made fun of. Feeling very relaxed. S is out with friends.
I remembered that I felt really centered when I met H because I'd read The Four Agreements and The Mastery of Love and started practicing that. I have The Voice of Knowledge by the same author but never read it. So I'm going to start reading that.
I'm getting that Beginner's Mind thing. I was feeling pressure to do things, enjoy life, plan, make lists...and now I feel like I'm understanding the whole in the moment thing.
And if nothing else I know today's "I was proud" will be this morning I took notice of the anxiety and stopped and did something about it.
When I look back at the past 7/8 months and even for part or times of our marriage, I was living with lots of fear and anxiety as a running current underneath. Am I doing the right thing? How do I feel about this? Should I be doing this? I feel guilt or pain but let's shove that aside and move on. I feel like because we're married it means things should be and they aren't something must be wrong but I don't want there to be...I just feel like there was a layer of turmoil underneath. Even when I left, even I was dating, even when I had a change of heart....and today I don't. Yesterday I didn't.
I can honestly say I feel a sense of peace and calm. I notice that things drift in my head like "he won't be happy with her and he'll miss you" or "one day you'll meet someone who will make you so much happier" neither of these are how I want to see the world anymore. People don't make you happy. You can share your happiness with someone and they can share their's with you but no one can make you happy. I don't know if all this sounds crazy, but I'm starting to feel like we all think our lives can't begin or can't be whole without that other person and that's not true.
Brit, Just paying you back for stopping by mine...There has been a good part of my M that I felt fear and anxiety. And I too was also walking on eggshells. That I felt that no matter what I did, it wasnt going to be what she wanted or that if something bothered me, it wasn't important enough to do something about.
"I don't know if all this sounds crazy, but I'm starting to feel like we all think our lives can't begin or can't be whole without that other person and that's not true."
i think our lives can be good without that other person. but i think our lives ARE whole when we have a partner. maybe i'm just co-dependent? i think life is so much better when we have an intimate partner to share it with.
love your posts, brit!
Oh I definitely WANT to share my life with someone. I'm just starting to feel like when I'm not in a relationship I feel like I'm not complete and a lot of my energy was spent looking for someone. and I'm starting to want to be complete and happy first and then share with someone.
1702 both me and H could have written your post.
I knew he was agreeing sometimes do I never know if that's what he meant he would be PA and not tell me do I would mind read. I hated it
Tonight I started feeling slightly sorry for myself and cried a little bit...which svks because I thought I'd get a tear free day. I'm at 48 hours of no contact. I was crying and thinking that he is happy with someone else. And I remembered that I don't know what he's feeling. I tried to figure out why I'm sad and I think it's because I'm choosing a different path than I ever have before. I'm not going to rush into another relationship as much as part of me wants to. Resisting that urge to numb the pain or rejection, deciding on another course, and knowing that it's going to be hard work well it's fvcking scary!
I've switched in my head from doing this work on myself for him and in hope of our reconciliation to doing it for me to be a better person. And in a way, because I'm co dependent and have self esteem issues it's harder to do for me. Isn't that weird?
I am detaching and recommitting to living myself being in a relationship with myself and wanting the best for him.
Brit, I feel your pain. It sounds like you are living my life. I have cried everyday since the beginning of March.
I keep thinking I wish I could just hear what she is thinking about the whole situation.
I do understand what you mean about choosing a different path. If that is what u want, don't get into a R until you are ready.
I know for me, I have already made peace with being alone. There is not way I could give what is needed in a R with the baggage I am carrying. It would not be fair to anyone involved.
It brought up a lot of bad memories for me about the whole self esteem issue. As all this has been going on in my life, I have become a different person. I have definitely felt that I am worthless when it came to being strong and confident. And even though this might be somewhat of my issue with moving on with my life, I have accepted this is what my future is.
brit, hang in there. i just got done putting LOTS or post-its around my house with words of encouragement to help me get through the days and be strong. like this one:
"Ungrateful bastards will always be ungrateful because that is who they are. They have manipulated their way through life since birth and there is no escaping that. The best thing to do is to get away from such people as soon as possible or you will find yourself plotting their death to be as long and painful as possible."
LOL!! at lieast it will make me laugh every day!!
Okay that made me laugh too!!!!! Thank you SS!!!
brit-
it is hard isnt it. a tear free day is my goal. had a few myself today. i am sad for the same reasons as you. i read something about unconditional love, and how it is a choice. i am sad for what is gone. no matter what my W chooses to do, i want her to be happy. because i love her. unconditionally. i think you feel the same about your H.
choosing a path for yourself is scary for me. out of my comfort zone. codependency svcks. you are doing amazing. its okay to cry. especially if you can figure out why. sounds like you know why. good job.
I needed to read that, too! Thanks, SS.
And those who are afraid of facing themselves will always think the problem lies in others.
Journal king so many thoughts running through my head. It's still very new in a way that he moved out 2.5 months ago and before that we spent so time together talked and shared so much. And now it's still a big adjustment. I don't agree or think he'll be happy in this new R but it's none of my business. The easier route is to get angry and stay angry. Then you turn off the pain with resentment and bitterness and think who needs him?
I don't even know if we'd work out if we got back together. I only wanted the chance to try. I feel like he's made sure of that by drawing the line in the sand and moving on. That's why he said this was so unfair. Because he didn't want to have to consider his unresolved feelings.
Some of my friends and family think I've dodged a bullet. Of course my self esteem issues mean they see my stock as being higher than I do. And that's little comfort when you're sitting with pain and hurt and fear that this is all your M will be. That it really is over.
Part of me wants to move. But running and having fresh starts when I'm unhappy is a pattern. As is party girl mode. Finding the next big thing etc
I know that when I am sad I see things in black and white I either see all the jury and pain and get angry or I think of only the good times and get sad. I miss his friendship when he was kind to me.
LaBug put up a great insight about filling in the spaces and I did that for so long. I was never happy about a lot of things but I glossed over made excuses because he loved me and I didn't think I was worthy of better love. I told him about some of these when we split. I filled in a lot of spaces on the money issue because we had all these things happen or whatever but he was always going to be happy being in debt. And having a lifestyle was more important to him than being independent.
sorry, brit. i know how you feel. we miss them but not all of them. i guess we're taking them off the pedestal and setting them on the ground with us.
could we be in a R with them again, with all the things that made us unhappy previously? if we change, will we still be the type of person who can love and live with them? can we accept them as they are or would they have to make changes, too? what if they won't or can't?
it's just so much confusion.
I have few different posts from Accuray bookmarked that really spoke to me. This is one about detaching when you don't want to and how to deal with the uncertainty:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2245002#Post2245018I think for me I can't think about what will happen in 5 years there's many factors: will he give me a chance, will he trust me again, will he change the things that upset, it goes on and on and on top of all the confusion that he feels about that he also has feelings for someone else and has to weigh the possibilities of a new relationship and possible regrets over that with possible regrets of not giving us another chance.
So I have to do this solely for me. I have to take a new path which is non-pursuit, no manipulation, not being selfish, not sabotaging our friendship or his new R, I want to get through a day without beating myself up over something that happened between us or mistakes I made. That's my first goal.
I started rereading therabbithole's threads because her sitch was so similar to mine. And reading the bit where he'd told her he was in love with the GF and she was questioning why she was hanging on and holding out hope and someone suggested PRIDE is what stops us.
It's so so true. My pride tells me I shouldn't hold out hope. My pride says you can get someone "better" My pride says you don't want to have to tell everyone that you broke up with him and now you're back together. His pride says he can't just stop this R it's unfair, his pride says he can never get over me sleeping with someone, especially someone I work with, someone my friends all know, his pride says my family thinks x, y, and z.
I read this convo her H had with her and I started crying...not sad for myself cry more like look at us...
he can't even look me in the eye or look at me without remembering the arguments, the sadness, the way he felt unsuccessful, not smart, and that he couldn't do anything right. He said he can't imagine me coming home from work, sitting on the couch, and us NOT arguing about something.
this is almost word for word what he said to me on Tuesday.
He said that he constantly felt like I was controlling, that he couldn't do anything right, and that even when he got what he wanted he felt guilty for having it. I said "I can imagine that you did. I didn't treat you very well, and at every pass I was criticizing you, and trying to prove a point. I was so guilty of not listening to you and I imagine that you felt like you had to ask for my permission to do anything." He said nothing at first.
This easily could have been a convo with us. Instead I told him that I didn't want to be selfish, I didn't want to be controlling that I did all that because I was so scared of being taken advantage of and thought I needed to protect myself. I told him that story about how I now know I didn't listen to him and his needs.
I guess re-reading this...made me feel that we aren't so far gone as I thought. Or once again we aren't so uncommon. I don't know if he will ever trust me to not leave, or if he'll ever forgive me for leaving him, treating him with contempt, or dating after we split. And I'm not sure how much of that is under my control or what actions I can take to show him that. I feel like the best way to do this is what I posted above....making changes for me while no one is looking. Not dating casually, not getting trashed and doing things I regret, working on loving myself, healing my feelings of unworthiness.
In my very first post I'd asked about what I could to show him and everyone said...just detach stop pursuing. It's taken awhile but it's getting thru my thick skull. 3 days no contact.
Brit, I'm on 2 1/2 days NC my self... Do you feel angry that your spouse is ok with going that amount of time with out any contact with you?
Oh Brit, thanks for posting that because it is my life.
I'm so relieved I didn't email my H last night in another fit of "you've screwed up, yet again!" (Which I haven't done in a long time but I'm sure that's what he still dreads in interactions with me)
These boards can save a person, can give pause to allow us to think about what's really going on.
When he first moved out yes. Random moments I would think it's another day and he's okay without talking to me and it would make me really sad. Right now....no. I know that he and I both need space after the emotional outburst we had last week.
I see how each person on here has a different situation...
I can seem to get over the fact that I feel that if nothing is ever brought up about the why it happened, that she will put it somewhere in her mind that she won't let herself think about it again. And if it is not brought up, she will just forget about it and move on. Maybe it is the guilt of her actions, but it still doesn't make it right.
For both of us... for her to just walk away without trying and for me to just give up and accept it. I mean, in my situation, this was only a couple months of a rough patch and she gave up. We were never given a chance to make things any better.
But her choice is the right one for her and that's the hard part, accepting that and letting her go her way.
Respect her choice and allow her to live her life.
Anything else is controlling.
It's sad and we've all been there but continuing to fight that will only keep you stuck.
Brit, going NC is tough... it was only possible for me due to the pain of contact that was only initiated by me.
Try to stay busy but busy with things that are for you. Things that make you a better person, that are healthy, that make you happy, or that you enjoy.
It helped me to list 5 positive things for myself each day. Like how you enjoyed the river and people having a picnic. Initially, it may be hard but count even the smallest positives! Slowly you will focus more on yourself and become more centered
It's possible the rough patch was longer than two months for her and she just kept quiet about it until she couldn't any longer.
brit, sorry for hijacking... I'm just in such a dark place!
Then how is fighting to save your marriage not controlling. From what you are saying, throw in the towel, let her go her way, and wait on the back burner until if and when she comes back??
Part I cannot get over is how someone betray another so heinously, and be so selfish.
Some may say it is controlling, but there is very little different in me that when she was falling for me. She is the one that has completely changed, and I am getting blamed for not making the M work.
It is always a possibility, but everything got bad after coming off the meds she was on. She only saw things in a negative light when, what i feel, she was going through depression. Not one thing made her feel good. The more I fought to make M better, the more she fell back. When I backed away, I wasn't doing anything to fix things. How can someone "win" in the position?
I'm taking this to your thread.
(REPOSTING since it got lost above haha...if anyone wants to comment from an LBS perspec I'd appreciate it.)
I started rereading therabbithole's threads because her sitch was so similar to mine. And reading the bit where he'd told her he was in love with the GF and she was questioning why she was hanging on and holding out hope and someone suggested PRIDE is what stops us.
It's so so true. My pride tells me I shouldn't hold out hope. My pride says you can get someone "better" My pride says you don't want to have to tell everyone that you broke up with him and now you're back together. His pride says he can't just stop this R it's unfair, his pride says he can never get over me sleeping with someone, especially someone I work with, someone my friends all know, his pride says my family thinks x, y, and z.
I read this convo her H had with her and I started crying...not sad for myself cry more like look at us...
Quote:
he can't even look me in the eye or look at me without remembering the arguments, the sadness, the way he felt unsuccessful, not smart, and that he couldn't do anything right. He said he can't imagine me coming home from work, sitting on the couch, and us NOT arguing about something.
this is almost word for word what he said to me on Tuesday.
Quote:
He said that he constantly felt like I was controlling, that he couldn't do anything right, and that even when he got what he wanted he felt guilty for having it. I said "I can imagine that you did. I didn't treat you very well, and at every pass I was criticizing you, and trying to prove a point. I was so guilty of not listening to you and I imagine that you felt like you had to ask for my permission to do anything." He said nothing at first.
This easily could have been a convo with us. Instead I told him that I didn't want to be selfish, I didn't want to be controlling that I did all that because I was so scared of being taken advantage of and thought I needed to protect myself. I told him that story about how I now know I didn't listen to him and his needs.
I guess re-reading this...made me feel that we aren't so far gone as I thought. Or once again we aren't so uncommon. I don't know if he will ever trust me to not leave, or if he'll ever forgive me for leaving him, treating him with contempt, or dating after we split. And I'm not sure how much of that is under my control or what actions I can take to show him that. I feel like the best way to do this is what I posted above....making changes for me while no one is looking. Not dating casually, not getting trashed and doing things I regret, working on loving myself, healing my feelings of unworthiness.
In my very first post I'd asked about what I could to show him and everyone said...just detach stop pursuing. It's taken awhile but it's getting thru my thick skull. 3 days no contact.
brit-
my WAW is very controlling. i do fear getting back with her. i always had to ask for "permission". it got to where i just said i didnt care what we did, because i didnt want to argue. it is still like that now, although i am starting to stand up for myself. she doesnt like it because it is different. my wife has always been a runner. whenever it didnt go her way, when i wouldnt back down, she would take off.
she also is running into a new R and in party girl mode. it is good to hear, you see that about yourself. how unhealthy it is, and you are doing something about it. good job.
thank you....yes that's what he's said that he didn't want to argue. When I brought things up on Tuesday I said you never said anything I thought you didn't care and he said I didn't want to argue I didn't want to get yelled at. So when I think about this I think that I really need to try to NOT react to any future bombs anything really.
What would you need to see from your W to feel that it wouldn't happen in the future?
Brit, Heartbroken
What you guys describe is every bit what was going on in my relationship. The two books that helped me the most were no more mr nice guy, and the married man sex life primer.
A W wants a man she can respect, who stands up to her. She also doesn't want to fight 24/7. I can relate because my W too was controlling, and when things didn't go her way she was a runner. Here's what I had to do.
1. When you make a decision stick to it!! Take charge make the call, listen to your W and if she brings a good logical point change it, if it's just a matter of opinion stick to your original decision.
2. If she runs do not chase. Let her run and cool off on her own, and when she comes back talk calmly to her, and don't budge off your position. (unless she is absolutely right.
3. Make sure she understands what behaviors you will and will not tolerate and enforce them. See #4
4. Practice tit for tat. If she's nice be nice, if she's been insufferable create some distance and let her know that you refuse to interact with her until she can do it in a civil mannner.
A good example is how we used to drive endlessly with her unable to make up her mind, yet rejecting every suggestion I had. In this situation just pick something, and tell her "it's what YOU want". She may get upset in the short term, but will love it in the long term.
Great advice for passive men...what about me? Haha
Brit
The irony is that despite being a passive guy myself, I don't think I'd ask you to go easy on him. I could say gee Brit go easy on the poor guy! I know though that even if you tried to see through your husbands passiveness which he still seems to have, eventually you'd run out of patience and leave him again.
A common complaint amongst "nice guys" is that no matter how nice they are it's never appreciated. I think its because deep down women mistrust nice guys, they somehow know that all the niceness comes with a covert contract.
"I may not be very attractive but I'm nice to you so I expect you to want sex"
I guess what I'm trying to say is that unless he manages to change himself you just won't last with him. One of the keys to successfully DBing is working on yourself so as to not make the same relationship mistakes. As an LBS not only is he not working on himself, but making the same mistakes with another woman.
Oh and that's FORMER passive guy.
I always like your insight GB because I do think you really get my sitch. I read yours and I think me and your W did have some of the same issues.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that unless he manages to change himself you just won't last with him. One of the keys to successfully DBing is working on yourself so as to not make the same relationship mistakes. As an LBS not only is he not working on himself, but making the same mistakes with another woman.
I agree with this A LOT. The self sabotage part of me often thinks in particular he's not changing, he's doing the same things with someone else...screw it....go do your thing. But that's counteractive to what I REALLY want which is to NOT be the person that I was in the M. And I have to fix that first.
Caution the following is mind reading and I know I shouldn't be doing it: I believe that he feels like all this is temporary. Me not dating, me saying that we can fix this, me saying that I have feelings. And he puts away his guilt or hurt about the sitch by saying that this is my phase of crying all the time, he already went through it (he has actually said this) and I'll move on too and it will be fine. He said early on during my Change of Heart that I wasn't myself right now. That Brit is confident and happy and self assured and independent and that I just needed to calm down and then we could "see where we were at" Maybe we could date, blah, blah, blah. He told me he loved that girl.
I also feel like anything he thinks or feels about us can easily be shoved aside because it comes with PROBLEMS and GF at the moment has none.
I honestly think he's going to come back until when he sees that he's missing out. When I no longer represent all the problems and hurt, but when he thinks I'm being an idiot by letting her get away.
/MINDREADING
I'm seeing that it's easy to detach when you're angry. It's easy to not be hurt if you tell yourself that maybe you don't want them back. (Which isn't even true.) Can you love someone when you don't agree with their actions? Can you love someone and let them make choices even when those choices hurt you? And can you do THAT while keeping enough detachment to not take it personally, not see it as a rejection, and not be a victim.
Today I had to go somewhere literally across the street from his place of work. Normally I would have said hi or at least texted and said that I was going to be there. But since Mr Bond used that word "smothering" I'm now seeing that sometimes we can put a WHOLE LOT of pursuing and manipulation under the heading of being friendly and polite. So I did and said nothing. It was very strange knowing I was that close to him and not mentioning it. But my new mantra is space and distance.
Ok so you sabotaged your dates with seemingly good men.
Why do you feel unworthy of happiness? I am not saying they were the gates to heaven but you thought they might be, why? And why would you kill it?
Look at that question(s) again and again I am not asking what it appears I am asking on the first read.
Sometimes our subconcious takes the best care of us.
Is Brit the one who will turn her bloom to the sun that shines the brightest?
Where does your nourishment come from and why?
It's taken me a week or so....but....are you saying that maybe my subconcious knew that I wasn't ready to date or be in a relationship?
Am I the one who turns my bloom to the sun that shines the brightest? No, I'm not materialistic. I say that, I believe that about myself. But there are things in my life that contradict that. I need to look at more closer.
I have no idea where my nourishment comes from. but I'd like to think it was from within and not from an outside source...that's the place I'd like to get to.
Brit
Oh god please don't tell me you read through the 3 or 4 threads of misery I wrote. To be honest they're kinda embarrassing. I was so desperate to keep something that was almost non-existent that I conceded to a lot of things which I'm ashamed to have conceded to.
It was almost like the more I yielded the more she despised me. It wasn't until I finally put the breaks to a LOT of things that things started turning around.
It was hard though, but my life is so much better. My marriage is 5 times better than it was at this point last year, we still have some serious issues, but it feels like it can be achieved.
Those were some scary days as I held on to myself and stood up for myself.
For years W took the lead, and seriously resented me for it. I was just tryin to be "egalitarian".
In a democracy of 2 someone has to be the tie breaker, I deferred to her, since it felt easier. Afterall I didn't want to piss off my wife. Which led to the oh so painful.
"what do you want to eat"
"whatever you want"
"I want Mexican"
"no I don't want that"
Oh we did that. He never chose anything by the end even though I was practically screaming that I didn't want to choose dinner tonight!!!! MIL loves to say he's do laid back he's horizontal.
I'm starting to see that some people decide to change like you and others are more comfortable not changing like your cousin. What I want for him doesn't matter. He thinks he can be who he always was in this R and because she and I are different it'll be different. Who knows?
I have decided that I am going to work on myself so much that when I'm healed and whole I'm be the most eligible bachelorette in the world! I'm just trusting a higher power that one day in the future I'll have someone in my life...no need to worry about it now!
Brit and gb, this discussion is interesting.
I see the "nice guy" as a branding of "co-dependent no more" for men. I haven't read the nice guy book but have been to the website. gb, would you agree?
Brit, I agree when gb says if your h doesn't work on himself and want to change that may be a deal breaker.
In my situation, I was a controller-fixer but I think I became more so because of the R. My H never really had ideas of things to do, at least not that he shared with me, so much of the planning was left to me. I planned and executed my a$$ off. It comes easy to me, I'm good at it. I got better at it and become somewhat obsessive. But I wasn't a tyrant.
This "I don't want to argue about it" line always sticks in my craw a bit. My H has said the same thing but we never really argued. Why? Because he didn't. He shut down. There would usually be 2 rounds, this is a great example: We had talked about putting solar panels on our house since it was built. It would make for great resale. I said: "Prices are really good on solar panels right now and with the rebates, etc we would only be paying $xxxx.xx. And then there's the lowered electric bill." H "That's a lot of money." LB "Yeah, but I think it would help with resale if we ever decide to sell the house, the energy efficiency will make it more sellable.. What do you think." This is where he shut down, stopped talking about it and we now have solar panels on the house. He was pi$$ed and that spawned the "disagreement" that led to his final bomb drop.
But the kicker is, he called the contractor who did the work, set the whole thing up and never once again raised an objection.
And this is how most of those discussions went. I would propose something, he might have a differing viewpoint or opinion, I would comeback with more of my side (usually with lots of research, controllers can't be unprepared). These were never really contentious.
And when he says he "just didn't want to argue", he's right but he also didn't want to take a stand, draw a boundary, communicate his side. And I think most women read that as "He doesn't care." And it really boiled down to if I didn't agree with him when he expressed a differing viewpoint he was done, the discussion was over. Again none of this was ever contentious.
When he did really have a plan, I usually agreed. In fact I can't think of a time when I didn't. New truck, OK; 64 Mustang, fine; golf club, OK; shooting club, sounds like fun; new bike, great.
So after that vent, I guess what I'm left with is, I don't want to get back in to "that" R. I want someone who, if he feels strongly about something, will say that and then be able to have me disagree and then come back with more explanation of his viewpoint. Not someone who says "eff it, it's not worth my time" but then resents the fact that it didn't go his way and thinks he's a "nice guy" because he doesn't argue.
I know my faults, I have not been an easy person to live with at times, I do like things to go my way, I can be controlling because I'm afraid of the unknown (less so now), I'm working on all of that and am a very different person than I was 14 months ago.
And I don't think I could tolerate that treatment now.
This was written on very little coffee, hope it makes sense.
Not only did it make sense I felt like you were talking about me!!!
That's so true the whole "I didn't want to argue" "I knew you'd just yell at me" That's so not true. We never fought and when I tried to fight or like you say get him to take a stand he would always
He throws in my face that we did "all these things" because it's what I wanted. But like your H he never said or proposed any thing HE wanted. And so I would get insecure and start second guessing "do you really want to have kids or is that because I brought it up?" "well we're not getting any younger we probably should" Which then led me thinking I would never know if he was unhappy in the R, that he would just exist, hang out in the garage, playing with projects and I would be left not knowing if he loved me. Which is what happened....only I got thrown under bus because I left.
He says that he just went along with whatever I wanted and never stood up for himself and he thinks if we got back together it would still happen because of my strong personality. I said "so you don't trust yourself not to slip into that pattern again?" and he said "I hadn't thought it that way but yes" Now I realize of course he hadn't thought of it that way because THAT WAY takes the blame off my strong personality and puts the responsibility for how he reacts in a situation on him.
I am certainly a controller/fixer. MIL once told H's sis that when we're older I'll be the one in the family everyone calls in times of trouble because I can handle things. Instead of feeling proud I thought when do I get to be the irresponsible one?
When I think back to the beginning of our R, he never planned then. There's this whole example of our first date that I won't go into but basically he made me plan it and because of that I almost didn't go....he used the same tactic almost word for word on GF and laughed about it to me. We did have some things that we planned together. By the time he wanted to plan something anything I was already too resentful and angry and would shoot it down.
UGH this discussion is making me angry LOL
Like you bug, I was not an easy person, I wanted my own way, and I can be controlling. I'm working on that. And *if* we tried again I would hope that he would find the space to stand up and state what he wants because I would have stopped being selfish and demanding. It was a cycle I do know that.
Journalling:
Today I've been NC for 4 days. Today I managed to go to an appt across the street from H and make no contact. That was actually a bit tough but not nearly as crazy as I've felt in previous situations. Today I've felt calm, upbeat, optimistic, and generally don't feel as helpless or hopeless as I've felt in MONTHS.
I'm not sure if he'll come to drinks on Thursday with our friends who are in town from another country. I'm a bit nervous. It's his choice. I am obviously NC so I'm not bringing it up. My only fear is he'll bring her. I think he'll not come before bringing her because he knows I'll be there. I plan to get there early and leave early since it is a school night.
ooh, wish i had your courage! i admire you so much!
Courage? I don't feel very courageous? About the drinks? No I think my fear is he'll bring her but it's a pretty crazy fear. The chances of him doing that are very very slim. I'm certainly not going to let my fear stop me from seeing them.
I read back over my very first thread and I came to a little bit of a conclusion. The pattern that's been happening is that he lets me in to be his friend and I get expectations and do something to scare him. I never hear from him on weekends because he's with her. We had started to build a very nice friendship with him sending me funny texts etc. What did I do? have expectations which led to the bomb being that much harder to take and act rash. I acted rash about him taking an item from the garage and I really acted rash during the bomb.
Regardless of his choices, I'm not doing a very good job of being consistent. He keeps saying he doesn't want to lead me on. So what happens he opens himself up to being my friend and I show him that I'm still in love with him.
I'm taking that off the table which should be pretty easy considering the fact that I think he has things to work on which he isn't doing currently. It's completely out of my hands right now. And I KNOW I do that he probably thinks we just need some space after my outburst. And he's maybe wondering if he can even be friends because of my smothering.
So I've recognized a pattern and a cheeseless tunnel.
I've had a great day. I am smiling more. I'm coming out of this withdrawal I was in. I just feel like I'm living more in my surroundings.
Journalling:
Today I've been NC for 4 days. Today I managed to go to an appt across the street from H and make no contact. That was actually a bit tough but not nearly as crazy as I've felt in previous situations. Today I've felt calm, upbeat, optimistic, and generally don't feel as helpless or hopeless as I've felt in MONTHS.
Just wanted to stop in and say this is AWESOME!
Just retouching on the whole taking charge thing.
I can say from personal experience that both your husbands loved you enough to put you (and your decisions) first. There were many times where I (mistakenly) yielded to her in order to keep the peace, or in some ways "spoil" her. I wanted her to have what she wanted, eat what she wanted, and do what she wanted to do.
In turn I got labeled as spineless, and rewarded with a WAW. Trust me I can really empathize with your husbands, and don't blame them for what they did. If theyre anything like me they were probably raised to unconditionally love someone, and did not receive unconditional love in return. So they acted out. Now they're seeking someone to do what they expected you to do.
I'd be there too had I not found this site and others.
gb, I appreciate your response. I remember the early days of you posting and it seems you've come a long way. My question is, did you know you were subjugating yourself when you yielded to her and still chose not to stand for yourself? Did what you were doing give you some unease?
My H's biggest complaints when he left were that I was controlling and everything had to be my way. So I don't think that fits with the statement about wanting to spoil me. I don't think it can go both ways, can it? Can it be unconditional love until...it's not?
Sorry if your W called you spineless, I've never felt that about my H, he just doesn't like conflict in his life. I actually always felt very protected and taken care of by him in a physical danger scenario. It's one of the things I miss the most.
GB you are right on the money with your insight on him.
There isn't anything we can do about the past. We both have to move forward on trying to be better people in the future. You did that by finding this site reading books and learning to take charge. And finding that both you and your wife were happier when you did that.
Today marks 5 days of NC. I'm not sure why he's not contacting me he usually would have by now. I just think that last week was so emotional or whatever he's giving me space too.
I think I said previously that I've realized in the past few months he gives me friendship and I get expectations. Which is why he keeps saying he doesn't want to lead me on. I also felt really bad in a way when he said "I haven't been telling you about the relationship because I know it's hard for you" I don't want to be that person. He's in a R, I need to be an adult respect his decisions and his choices. I know ages ago I told him we shouldn't talk about other people in our lives and that he was giving me mixed messages, but I need to grow up. And be okay with this for him and for me.
Everytime I'm angry about him moving forward with this R, I'm putting myself in the victim role. I'm choosing hurt, anger, and resentment instead of detaching myself from his choices and his R. He's offering me his friendship which is more than a lot of men who are LBS's would offer if they were in his position. It's possibly more than I would offer if I were in his position. And all I'm doing is proving to him again and again if things aren't on my schedule and if things aren't going my way then I'm mean and angry blame him for being hurt.
This is where I wonder if going NC is the right thing. Because I worry that it shows him that I'm walking away again. I don't really know.
I feel stronger and more "at peace" with his relationship. Not that I'm ready to go to dinner with the two of them or double date in 6 months time. I'm just saying I've come to terms that he and I as a he and I are seriously 100% over. I don't own him. I have no claim on him right now. And I should be thankful that he wants me in life at all.
I don't think it can go both ways, can it?
yes he gives in and gives in and then becomes angry and resentful when he doesn't get the results he wants. I think I came to this conclusion from that drama triangle. We fix and fix and then get resentful when we don't see the results we want.
This is where I wonder if going NC is the right thing. Because I worry that it shows him that I'm walking away again. I don't really know.
This was niggling in my brain.
It seems that you and I have been the pursuers in our Ms. NC is very scary for us because in our history, if we didn't turn the key in the engine, nothing happened.
So if I'm not turning the key, nothing will happen. This makes me nervous. Maybe if I just jiggle the key a little...
Maybe had I waited longer before, he would have come back. Who knows?
It is a scary place but he has the power to jump-start this if he chooses.
Labug
Come to think of it she never labeled me spineless, but her actions implied she had nothing but contempt bred from a lack of respect.
I'm in a very physically demanding and physical profession, but she'd mentally out spar me all the time. There is an element I can remember of just going with the flow, and this always bugged me that she was so demanding that it was just easier to give in. I remember for a time that I'd know it was a left turn but she'd be adamant its a right, so I'd take the right knowing full well it was a right, and then blame it on her for getting us lost. It really felt easier to just get lost, I figured maybe this way she'd learn to trust me. No trust just anger for letting her make the wrong choice. So yeah I know what your husband means when he says you are demanding.
On the other hand I truly thought that by avoiding conflict and giving in I was being a good husband. That she'd see all the sacrifices I was making for her and be appreciative. Instead she was repelled by what she saw as indecisiveness.
It's hard for a nice guy to grasp how him "doing his best not to get into a fight" is seen as his future WAW as him not caring about her. I mean this is what goes through our heads:
"wait she thinks I don't love her because I'm trying to avoid a fight? What the heck is wrong with her, if I didn't love her I'd be constantly fighting with her, instead I give her what she wants!"
I'm sorry to say this but your husbands probably think you are the most ungrateful women in the world.
I mean I gave my wife EVERYTHING I could and she still got fed up with me. I'm not going to lie that still hurts. As I'm sure your husbands still hurt about it too.
I also blame society phrases like "you can be right, or stay married" or "the wife is always right" are ingrained into our culture now. I know a lot of young men who just resign themselves to abusive situations, because that's what they think marriage is.
I think the key here though is that I've given up on believing that you can love someone unconditionally and expect the same in return. Not that I think W is incapable of love, but more like my love now comes with conditions.
Conditions like respect, loyalty, affection, sex, patience. Any woman who is not willing to provide these bare minimums can just move on.
I figured that if I didn't demand those traits eventually I'd just get walked all over again. I also figured that if I just moved to another relationship I was bound to make the same mistake again. So rather than seek another woman to have the marriage I always wanted, I decided to stay with the one I'm with and love and build the marriage here and now.
Like I wrote on Navy guys thread at first it was a living hell standing up for myself, we had sooo many fights and close calls. Eventually though the tide started changing. Luckily we now have more good days than bad, and are in better shape than pre-bomb. We still have a long way to go, but I'm definitely a happier guy.
brit-
sorry i didnt respond earlier. for me to believe my W has changed there are a few things she would have to do.
1. ask me what i think and actually listen
2. when i make a decision, dont argue because it is not what she thinks
3. stop treating me like a 2nd class citizen.
4. believe me, not everyone else
5. stop the running away when life gets tough.
6. talk without attacking
7. stop flirting with other men or being "nice".
8. do something i want to do without complaining.
9. trust my judgement. i really am not a moron.
10. show me that she loves me and believes in me. tell me that i matter to her.
i am not your H, but you sound alot like my W at times. that is not a dig. i wish she would be doing half the work you are. have you ever asked how he felt about things and really listened without defending or attacking. sharing feelings is the last thing most men want to do. it makes me feel weak. to get attacked when i am already feeling weak get the fighting instinct in me to come out. it is sad and i need to work on that, but that is how i feel. just some thoughts, maybe not what you were looking for. if not let me know. i will try again
I figured that if I didn't demand those traits eventually I'd just get walked all over again. I also figured that if I just moved to another relationship I was bound to make the same mistake again. So rather than seek another woman to have the marriage I always wanted, I decided to stay with the one I'm with and love and build the marriage here and now.
Wish he'd done that.
Well NC was broken right after I posted.....by him. He texted and asked if I'd heard anything from the Doc. I gave him the latest and asked how he was. "Oh I'm fine. Just wanted to see if you knew anything yet. Shame they can't seem to nail it down" I replied and agreed it was annoying and told him a very short funny event I saw happen today. No reply.
I miss that friendship we were starting to develop pre bomb (even if it was clouded with my expectations) I realized that he wasn't sharing anything about his life possibly because the last time he did he was met with the mayor of crazytown. I just kept thinking you can't talk yourself out of a situation you acted your way into. If I want him to be my friend and see that I won't act crazy about his choices then I just have to show him that.
Bug, I totally agree about the we were the person to pursue to start the car to drive it around haha. And I don't know if I want the man who at the very least say hey I want you back. I do however think that in our positions they rebuild that trust with us and I worry that NC means I am walking. I dunno. I'm staying the course.
brit-
for me to believe my W has changed there are a few things she would have to do.
1. ask me what i think and actually listen
2. when i make a decision, dont argue because it is not what she thinks
3. stop treating me like a 2nd class citizen.
4. believe me, not everyone else
5. stop the running away when life gets tough.
6. talk without attacking
7. stop flirting with other men or being "nice".
8. do something i want to do without complaining.
9. trust my judgement. i really am not a moron.
10. show me that she loves me and believes in me. tell me that i matter to her.
Dakota, I think our dynamics are a lot alike! I put in bold things that he's either said directly or in a round about way.
Even a week or so ago he complimented me and said "I'm sure you don't need to hear it from me" These are all things that yes I need to show him, but right now I think it might be classed as smothering.
Tuesday when I told him that I know now I didn't listen to him and gave him an example that's when he started crying and asked why I was doing this? Because I think it's too much to talk about our problems, or our M right now. He's not there.
The decision thing is definitely my new goal in dealing with him. I was just saying he doesn't share his life with me and why should he all I ever do is offer advice instead of just saying good for you or that's great or whatever.
Dakota
A book which was highly influential for me was written by a guy named Athol Kay, he has been a lot of my inspiration for taking charge of my marriage and for demanding the respect I deserve.
Because in order to get respect you must act like the type of man that deserves it.
Because in order to get respect you must act like the type of man that deserves it.
and then there's no need to demand it.
so you know how I'd noticed in me that I get one positive reaction and then I sabotage or smother. I now feel more out of control and uncertain than I did this morning, because we were in NC. And now I've heard from him.
I will concentrate on the positives which is that I handled that interaction well. I didn't bring up feelings/emotions/Relationships. I am not pursuing. He broke the NC to find out about me rather than a housekeeping issue. ERGH but that just brings up expectations so I'll leave that one OUT of the positives.
yes, it does that, I call it the expectation creep, it comes in on little cat feet, like the fog (remember that poem?)
Shake it off but be wary.
I really like the metaphor of the fog. Because it does move on and it does cause you see things partially.
yes, it does that, I call it the expectation creep, it comes in on little cat feet, like the fog (remember that poem?)
Shake it off but be wary.
So, so true, bug!
That is why waiting to respond is helpful for me, so I can shake off the fog first.
brit-
smothering is bad. when he does initiate contact, do what you are doing. concentrate on him. men ove to have female attention, and he will prefer yours. it might not seem like it, but if he cried when you told him that, he still loves you. he is scared to show weakness. in a way, him doing this is standing up to you. showing you what he has needed. he needss to see you be there for him. trust his judgement. i cant speak for him, but what you have wrote about what he says tells me things. this woman is a band aid. he is showing you exactly what he needs. he thinks you are better than her. he is scared of you. nice guys dot like being afraid. makes us feel less than. dont feel bad if you contact him occassionally. stay dim but not dark. ask him about him once in awhile. when you see him, give him the attention he deserves. if you respect him, he will notice. and stay consistent. this is just my opinion. i am by no means an expert. these are just things i would love to have happen to me.
HB, great advice. I thought it was well-taken.
Dakota thank you so much for the advice. I think you do "get" him. Will he work on his own issues? Will he forgive me for stuff that happened? That's all out of my control. I will do as you say, ask after him, really listen to what he's saying, and above all keep my mouth shut (no advice) and stay consistent.
Thank you...wow....new thread needed in just a weeks time haha
wtf..people saying thank you. thats a first..lol. brit anything i can do to try to help. you have done the same for me, time and again. maybe he wont change that much. maybe he doesnt have alot to do. if you allow him to be a man, without critizing him, you might be surprised. i know i didnt want to upset my W so i learned to be passive. not exactly good because it does build resentments. anyway. if you let him feel like a man again, he might act like one. you might like it, you might not.
lookin forward to your new thread!
I think you learn by sharing with others and giving them help and support so yes thank you!!!
It seems I do really good all day and then I can't shut off my mind when it's time to sleep. Anyone else have that problem?
Sometimes I do (usually when I'm up past my bedtime on here!). Can you try exercising before bed, or taking a nice bath while listening to relaxing music, or otherwise relaxing/meditating? I found that doing some serious treadmill time in the evenings helped me, plus it gets me out of the house (GAL - double bonus!)
I didn't sleep well for the first year of this despite putting a lot of miles on the bike, yoga and meditation.
Some people find melatonin helps.
unfortunately i dont sleep either. 4 hrs a night if im lucky. i pray. for sleep,for peace,for strength. alot of times it helps. im not very religous, but i am quickly finding the power of prayer
there are no atheists in foxholes! nor on DBing!