i'd like to start a discussion here and hope that lots of people will join in and give their opinions, especially the vets.
There is a lot of discussion and observations about how the MLC spouse is manipulative and controlling.
On the other hand there is a lot of encouragement to watch for the baby steps and use those to monitor the progress of one's sitch.
so my question is:
How does one distinguish between it just being the control or manipulation and an actual baby step?
thanks
zig
The difference is your focus. The baby steps you're watching for are the result of something you're doing that's working. If what you're doing isn't working, do something different. Your focus is on you and what you're doing, and not on the progress of your sitch.
interesting how when it's time to do that, it seems to coincide with some new phase or step
This is quite true.
Sometimes it triggers a change within us.
But something that has been going on here for a long time.
thanks adinva -
The baby steps you're watching for are the result of something you're doing that's working.
i guess the eternal newbie question is - how do you tell if it's working?
in my sitch - i see h trying to cling to the picture of "helpless LBS" that he seems to keep trying to retain in his mind. whenever he gets a strong whiff of the opposite - i see him trying to "take over" - stopping by without calling, wanting to do things around the house - coming really close, pulling back really hard -
i see that all as part of the whole picture - and don't read all that much into it, as it is more transparent to me than he realizes.
but at the same time, i am wondering if i am doing the right thing - should i allow him to come closer? and i know that sounds like an odd question during our sitches - but i'm not able to tell the difference between what is manipulation, and what is a baby step .
i have asked this question many times over the last few months and haven't got an answer - maybe i'm asking the wrong question, but i don't know how to word it any differently.
i see h keeping himself in the "victim role" by holding on to the idea that "poor him, even though he wants his freedom, he is stuck taking care of me - you know, mowing the lawn - how could zig possibly do that, health insurance - how can she survive without it..etc"
i have made huge strides in showing him that i can manage all this on my own - i haven't asked for any help - and found to my own joy that i am quite capable of taking care of things here at the house.
on the other hand - it's definitely his way of showing he cares(?????) by taking care of the people he loves and feels responsible for.
am i pushing him away by not letting him come over and do things? am i being too independent? or by letting him come and do stuff, am i leaving the door open?
i feel like i already know what your answer is going to be - which is what you already responded with. but i need more , please.
i feel at a loss how to handle this .
i can't tell if i'm focusing on the wrong thing - the detail of what to allow or not to allow? what are my boundaries.
he's got his own house to take care of now, he's adamant that we are better off apart, but he still wants to come over and help?
i know, i know, they don't make any sense when they are in MLC, but what's the best thing for me to do here - let him come over and do what he feels like doing, or draw the line and say - no - if you are leaving, i'll take care of myself completely
thanks for any advice that you have
zig
so my question is:
How does one distinguish between it just being the control or manipulation and an actual baby step?
It is best answered by the general response that MLC is something that a MLCer MUST go THROUGH.
IF one's spouse is MLC, while there are the high energy (ie. really "out there" with some of the stuff they do or say) and low functioning (ie. they are unable to function "normally" in any setting, therefore EVERYONE sees something's not quite right)...
not all MLCers are that way. Often, they MLC is more subtle. The MLCer more high functioning (ie. only behaves in crazy making ways in front of the LBS, but otherwise works and socializes as though nothing is wrong)
Imagine two people are going sky diving...
Person number one knows they have a parachute...
Person number two does not know they have a parachute...
As the plane reaches 10,000 feet and the door opens and the instructor starts pushing people out the door...
Well... which one do you think is going to panic?
We all go through transitions in our lives... the difference for many people is that... unlike parachutist # 2 above, they do not panic... with MLC... there is quite often a trigger that we may not even notice, that causes the person to go into crises... let me say that in a more responsible way... the person chooses to panic at that time, rather than allowing themselves to go into the deeper, introspective work that a transition requires...
Parachutist # 1 has different moments of emotion through the entire experience and lands at the bottom, possibly elated, and possibly with just a calm, serene aura about them... (life transition)
Parachutist # 2... well, their arms are flailing all the way down (even though their chute is open) and they are screaming and crying... and end up on the ground in a bubbling pile of emotions... or even passed out... (mid life crises)
I would submit that more often than not, the MLCer sees their spouse as the instructor who pushed them out of the plane... there might be other "causes of blame"... but the LBS may get the brunt of it and appears to be a consistent source of blame in any MLC I've seen.
Now lets say that in parachutist # 2... as they are about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way down... their arms stop flailing... they stop screaming... the just dangle from the chute... and their eyes are open so you are pretty sure they are alive... and not passed out...
In MLC, that might just be a sign that they are working their way through the MLC... these are the "baby steps" the LBS would be looking for...
Control and manipulation... spew and blame... it's often par for the course of MLC... if things seem "better" or "normal"... just wait a moment... the spew and blame will show up again and any random moment due to something you may or may not have said or done...
That's a good part of it in a nutshell... but it's not that simple...
journaling:
so much has taken place over the last week and a half - i don't even know where to start.
the school trip to Boulder was a blast - i had so much fun with all my friends - and laughed a lot and was really relaxed. several new 180's that were big for me - going on a long car trip without getting anxious and stressed ,driving on the highway for 3 hours straight without a hitch, driving alone on my own in an unknown town, keeping myself grounded and happy in spite of being around h, keeping my boundaries.
i made everyone laugh so much, that it surprised me - i'm discovering that i have a great sense of humor, that warms people toward me and it feels really good. i connected with a couple of other parents in a really deep meaningful way - who came to me at the end of the trip and said they were in awe of what i am becoming.
a ton of stuff happened between h and myself - the interactions were very different - and very unexpected!
when we got back, i was pleased - it seemed as if the ice had definitely broken between us - or from him. actually all i felt was relief - relief that we could be around each other with no tension whatsoever, and that we may have taken a baby step towards just being relaxed around each other.
i really did not see it as anything huge - just that okay, h allowed us to just BE, without all the drama etc.
but after that - he has pulled back really hard - when we are around his family (mother's day and his mom's birthday), but in between, he's stopped by the house twice - acting really friendly and wanting to do stuff here, but both times without calling.
i let the first time pass, but yesterday when he did it again, i just quietly said no - he wanted to clean up a fallen tree in the back yard that has been there since last summer. he was shocked when i said no and replied but i have the chain saw now and i just said quietly that it wasn't; such a great time for me.
yesterday - i went to IC and described what i thought were several baby steps that h has demonstrated - and C shot down most of them - seeing them as manipulation, and then saying that some of them were definitely signs of hope in this situation.
she ended up by telling me that i seem to give my power over to men completely, and that even though parts of me are really strong and amazing i have this helpless side that seems to emerge with h.
i came out of there utterly confused and really unable to see clearly in what way i do that.
she thought that a lot of what h did on the trip, was an attempt to "show the world" that he and i were good and that this was mutual, and that i had played the role in helping him to give that image.
i started to feel really angry at h, and even angrier at myself for letting that happen and not seeing it for what it is. my own conscious motives were to go with the flow, show h and s that we could have fun together and be relaxed.
oddly enough, even though h and i were making the effort, s wouldn't have much to do with it - he downright shunned our efforts to co-parent together(this was done by h, which really surprised me)
so now, i will continue with my own efforts to get my work going and keep moving forward.
it really helped to read last night on the mlc boards and i know that this is just all part of the process i have to go through as i expand and grow.
part of what i've been really struggling with over the last couple of weeks is whether i want to give this up and walk away - it has been a torturing thing to go through. it's the easy way out - because i see what it really means - to give up and walk away is to stop my inner growth and to really discover and be the person i am meant to be. to avoid the pain which is essential for my growth.
now i have to ground myself again and have faith that this was given to me for more than the mere reason for the chance to better our relationship - it has been given to me so that i can really see myself for who i am, discover what i need to change and have the courage to make those changes.
my sweet friend said a couple of things to me the other day - now is the time to just let him be for a while and just focus on falling in love with yourself:) she is so right - the more i love myself, the more i'll be able to answer those questions that i keep asking here.
i am falling in love with myself - i look in the mirror and feel utterly delighted with what i see = is that clear-eyed relaxed looking beautiful woman really me?
Sweet!!
doh, I didn't really finish this:
not all MLCers are that way. Often, the MLC is more subtle. The MLCer more high functioning (ie. only behaves in crazy making ways in front of the LBS, but otherwise works and socializes as though nothing is wrong)
the LBS and others might think the LBS is the one that's gone off the deep end... (not planned by the MLCer; just an artefact in some cases)
And in other cases the MLCer might be more high energy, so gets a full body tattoo, or a nice red, convertible sport car, or starts going on lots of expensive trips by themselves or quit their job to go do mission work in Hawaii...
So to repeat... there's nothing that the LBS DOES that makes a "noticeable" difference in the MLCer... DURING the main, prominent time of the MLC... the work the LBS does will reap rewards (hopefully) and be noticeable in the MLCer as the MLC starts to wind down...
Read up on the stages of MLC if you want to understand what signs you might be looking for in regards to "baby steps"... but understand that what ever work you do now, regardless of whether the M survives, will have a positive impact on yourself, your family, and yes... even your H... whether MLC or not...
thanks KD - I LOVE your parachute analogy
i have to say, i can see the panic - it seems to be more towards the surface after he bought the house and after he yelled divorce for the first time.
he seems so fragile right now
i notice him watching me every time i'm not looking at him - he's so hyper aware of me, that it's unnerving. it's almost as if he's screaming help while he pushes me away as hard as he can
meanwhile, i feel myself pulling away and letting go a bit and seeing things in the moment more clearly than i did before - in other words not getting quite so caught up in the drama as i used to be.
i'm beginning to know more what i want and what i don't want in a relationship. the picture is still a bit hazy, but the feeling of it is getting more defined.
there is quite often a trigger that we may not even notice, that causes the person to go into crises... let me say that in a more responsible way... the person chooses to panic at that time, rather than allowing themselves to go into the deeper, introspective work that a transition requires.
thanks for this - it helps me to take one more crucial step away form the sitch, and know a little more clearly that every little thing i do or say isn't all important (which i am beginning to realize is what keeps me in the panic state)
That's a good part of it in a nutshell... but it's not that simple...
there you go again -giving out tidbits, but not the whole story (grin)
so KD what's the "not simple" part - want to give it a shot:)
thanks for all you do for us here
zig
doh, I didn't really finish this:
not all MLCers are that way. Often, the MLC is more subtle. The MLCer more high functioning (ie. only behaves in crazy making ways in front of the LBS, but otherwise works and socializes as though nothing is wrong)
the LBS and others might think the LBS is the one that's gone off the deep end... (not planned by the MLCer; just an artefact in some cases)
i'm pretty sure that in h's case, it's the opposite - people seem to be seeing through his persona more and more. and even now after all these months, i have people whom we don't know as more than acquaintances asking me what is up with him and his mustache. the mustache is the equivalent of the tattoo here - it is off the wall! on the other hand, even while i'm standing there crying to a friend, all they are saying to me is that they've never seen anyone become who i've become during this kind of crisis, just telling me how in awe they are of what i am capable of, how present i am and how amazingly i am doingAnd in other cases the MLCer might be more high energy, so gets a full body tattoo, or a nice red, convertible sport car, or starts going on lots of expensive trips by themselves or quit their job to go do mission work in Hawaii...
So to repeat... there's nothing that the LBS DOES that makes a "noticeable" difference in the MLCer... DURING the main, prominent time of the MLC... the work the LBS does will reap rewards (hopefully) and be noticeable in the MLCer as the MLC starts to wind down...
Read up on the stages of MLC if you want to understand what signs you might be looking for in regards to "baby steps"...
but understand that what ever work you do now, regardless of whether the M survives, will have a positive impact on yourself, your family, and yes... even your H... whether MLC or not...
i really really understand this now - after all these months, KD - am really getting a grip on the whole concept of what my real, integral role is here
it's time for me to go reread the stages of MLC- and for me to apply the recipe - in a more wholehearted way.
thanksKD - i love talking with you - you are so grounded where you are, and i know that right now i'm still needing to suck that from external sources, until i am more grounded within myself
zig
oops the editing feature doesn't work - didn't meant to underline those last 2 paragraphs, which were my response
[quote=zig]
That's a good part of it in a nutshell... but it's not that simple...there you go again -giving out tidbits, but not the whole story (grin)
so KD what's the "not simple" part - want to give it a shot:)/quote]
lol... well... got some time...?
Let me just peek around and make sure 25 isn't watching...
She's been a great support for me and I know she constantly challenges me to refrain from thinking in terms of MLC and WAS because the focus needs to remain on us... we know this of course, but when one's mind has idle time... well...
So using me as an example... let's say that I've done absolutely no "work" on myself...
of course that's not entirely true, but I remain pretty much the same person I was when this all began... I just got out of MY OWN depression and found my footing to move forward...
It's not so simple as a WAS wanting to D and therefore drops the bomb, goes through all the emotional stuff that happens during a D, and pushes through in order to get the desired D and move on with their life...
Because a MLCer may do the same... file D, carry it through completion, and move on with their life...
According to my W, she had made her "decision" (which would be about 2 years ago by my count)... I noticed that she became very distant at that time and it was DIFFERENT than the spew that I was getting prior to that point... but no more "comfortable"...
My "official" bomb drop was mid Oct/10. Well, sort of... there were a series of bomb drops (kinda like those chinese fire crackers with 100s all strung together), but Oct. was the one that was most relevant to me.
My W gave me the whole "I don't FEEL M"... "I don't love you like a wife should love a husband"... "ILYBINILWY"... "I'm only going to MC so that we can better co-parent"... that Nov.10 I announced that I was leaving... she told me "You don't have to leave, I'm not asking you to move out"... Later, I got the "I'm happy living the way we are"... in reference to not carrying whether we D and not wanting to file legal separation...
and on and on and so on...
So I of course did the whole "blubbering idiot" thing... and the opposite of DBing... until I found DBing... and then as we all do, there was a lot of "mistakes" along the way... but eventually, I am "better" now...
but... I'm the same person I was when my W M'd me... same morals, ethics, behaviours... I've begun to do some upgrades and do some things that I hadn't been doing at the time, but now... almost 12 years later... I'm doing the "jbnati"...
Where it doesn't make sense is... after two years and "no change" in me... and a legal separation now in place (which was like pulling teeth to get to happen, in lieu of the D that I had asked her for and which would have been probably the same cost, legally)... there's no reason why we need to be M... yet my W has no interest in discussing D... about a year ago my W didn't even want to talk about it... about 6 months ago, my W (when I pressured discussion about it) finally said that she was "OK" with saying she'd be "OK" with D... about three months ago indicating that her life was "great" now, aside from a few "bumps" (financial concerns)...
and about a month ago in response to me indicating that I'm now looking to file, saying "so long as it is cheap and quick".
This above I thought was quite humorous... as we were discussing the SA, my W said that D would be up to me to pay for... so I just find it slightly entertaining that my W would even suggest that the D should be "cheap", since I'm the one who would be paying for it... and "quick"...??? well, two years to D...? So far there's nothing "quick" about it...
Anyhow, like I said, it's not so simple...
because IF my W is MLC... then she's high functioning, low energy... in MLC circles, this is known as a "low energy" MLCer... they want out... but they're in no rush... they are clingy... and they aren't prone to "boomerang" (pursuit/distance - distance/pursuit) patterns... they aren't "vanishers" because they don't just disappear for months or years at a time... they aren't low functioning, so no one else gets to see how crazy their behaviour can be... and they aren't high energy (well, there might be moments, but...) so they aren't buying that red sports car or quitting their job to become monks and nuns... or spending themselves broke (well, not true with my W as she's always been a paycheque to paycheque kinda girl...) or having wild and various affairs... at least, not out in the open...
As you see above, MLC comes in many and varied flavours... each one unique of course, but there are certain "patterns" of each type... and some will even transition from one type to another over the course of their MLC...
I think one of the things that makes the most sense to me is the understand that in (I think it's safe to say) that:
+ MLC = flight
MLCers tend to avoid anything and everything that is uncomfortable.
Parachutist # 1 embraced the experience and let it wash over them, taking it all in with open eyes and open mind...
Parachutist # 2 wanted with every cell in their body, to be out of the experience... the only experience they had was...
aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!
no, no, no...
aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!
this isn't happening...
aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think that a WAS is willing to do some of the tough work to get what they want.
An MLC... is willing to do the tough work... to avoid the tough work...
oops, I said low energy are clingy, above...
I meant low energy are not (necessarily) "clingy"... they can be... but not at all "always"...
I think my W might be slightly clingy, because while she has had moments of N/C... more often than not, there seems to be some reason or another to communicate (in MLC parlance, that's an attempt to maintain a connection with the LBS) with me... often under the guise of kid discussion, which then wanders off to other topics that may not have anything to do with the kids...
Again, for those who are reading along and keeping score saying, "my spouse is doing that" and stuff...
Here's the reality of it... the stuff that a MLCer goes through is both "natural" and "human"... IOW, just because your spouse is avoiding talking to you does not make them MLC... just because they start partying, does not make them MLC... just because they have an OP, does not make them MLC... and just because they are avoiding the "tough work" does not make them MLC...
Even while they might appear "confused" about wanting to D... does not make them MLC...
A WAS has had enough with their life... with the status quo... They could very well be entering the more benign (albeit also life changing) sister to MLC, known as a life transition...
The WAS may very well be looking to remake themselves... and while confused as to whether they want to include their spouse in that equation...
They TOO need to GO THROUGH the transition...
And while they may be confused at times... they may not be rushing the D... they may be emotional... even with violent outbursts and spew...
Well... maybe I just described low energy MLCers...
But with someone in transition, they tend to be able to stay more in their logical mind... things... actions... language... it "makes sense" in some ways... and they may not be opposed to talking about it... how they feel... what's bothering them, in a more calm and consistent manner...
They will avoid if something is uncomfortable...
but they are probably less likely to lash out at those who love them... their empathy chip... it's most like still, for the most part, working...
ok, thought I was done but just one more thing and then I am done, for now...
I hope this puts things into perspective on a WAS type / LBS work results case basis:
MLC = (sometimes) some bizarre stuff and the LBS is pretty much to blame for everything... words like "always", "never", "you did", "you didn't", "I'm doing great", "you are messed up", "I've accepted", "you're in denial"... continuous projection and blame is par for the course... major re-writes of history occur. There will be NO sharing of feelings allowed in either direction. Very little to no empathy apparent from the MLCer to the LBS.
LBS work = Nothing the LBS does will matter during the MLC to directly affect positive change in M, let alone the MLCer. The results of the positive changes in the LBSer will be for the benefit of their own life, regardless of what happens... and possibly have positive effect in the R of the two some time in the distant future... how ever that might look... the LBS MUST understand and accept that the M may not survive this situation...
WAS (without transition) = The spouse feels they have been pulling the load far too long. They don't feel their needs are getting met and they want to get D and move on with their life... Complaints by the WAS of the LBS are valid, provable, and unhealthy for a M... in THEIR M... clear logic exists, even if it is not obvious. Pretty much everything in their life remains status quo because they are happy with life, just not their M nor spouse. They MAY re-write history to some degree, in order to feel a little less guilty and more justified for moving on without their spouse. There may be responsible actions and language as well as apologies and empathy, but their minds are made up.
LBS work = Anything the LBS does to "fix" themselves as per the valid complaints of the WAS will benefit the LBS and may have (relatively) immediate affect on the R and may result in the survival of the M if the positive changes continue, are consistent, and habitual...
WAS (with transition) = Life is passing the WAS by and they feel somewhat out of control of their life and their destiny. Although there are things that were bad in the M according to the WAS, it wasn't ALL bad. It is just that there is depression involved (an underlying aspect of transition and MLC) and so there is a sense of hopelessness in the WAS that things will never be as good as they want... or they deserve... they begin to remake themselves and that might mean having to leave the M... many changes of someone in transition will be subtle adjustments... more like course corrections... they are all independent of their spouse... most adult responsibilities are maintained in an appropriate way...
LBS work = Anything the LBS does to "fix" themselves as per the valid complaints of the WAS will benefit the LBS and may have (relatively) immediate affect on the R... but like MLC, the WAS must GO THROUGH the transition. That means that while the R is civil and maybe even friendly... the LBS is left to live in limbo. Only once the WAS has gone through most of the transition, while they are in the process of re-integrating the aspects of the life they want to keep, will the WAS consider keeping the LBS... this will likely be a direct result of how the LBS grew and conducted themselves during the WAS transition.
NB:
In ANY of the above cases, it appears quite consistent that there WILL be a revisit of the R and the M in the future. It is just a matter of when. AND in the cases where the M does not survive (and maybe it should not, at least not in it's past form) there may be a new R form and possibly even a new (literally) M.~~~~~~~~~~~~
zig, you're the one that asked...
I hope you don't mind if I invite others / vets to review and clean up the above here, on your thread...
I need to read through this. Seems like some vital information I needed. Thanks KD!
Here is HB's six stages of a MLC as originally written by Jim Conway in the book Men In MLC.
HB's husband was a clinging boomerang and the stages fit that type of crisis very well.
Please note that stages do not always go in order.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=97846&page=1
Hi Zig, you sound so strong ((( )))
Great info on this thread.
Is there a link to more info on the types of MLC?
Thanks.
oh sorry, did I sneeze...?
You are welcome, of course. I hope this is making sense for people wondering what work they (the LBS) needs to do.
I need to read through this. Seems like some vital information I needed. Thanks KD!
You are welcome, of course! Just trying to help people.
I really believe in the benefits of empathising with people (the WAS/MLCer) as well as forgiving, letting go anger, and conducting oneself with unconditional love.
I know that my viewpoint on "what" love is differs from others here, but I do believe that love comes from within as a feeling we create in ourselves, before we can present it to others in actions.
In THAT way, love is a choice. But I believe it MUST begin IN US as a spark of feeling we nurture. And if we have baggage in the way, then we may never allow it to shine and BE in a way that is altruistically beneficial to others.
Is there a link to more info on the types of MLC?
It can often be said that the spouse of a MLCer is a hero... you know... like a "hero spouse"... which is a phrase you could always search your favourite search engine for... which might provide you with some further info regarding MLC stages...
Of course, Cadet (who's W was low energy, I believe) mentioned the Heart's Blessing post of MLC stages, above your post, NG.
How ARE things with you, Cadet?
BTW...
Time frames of the above WAS types would be as follows:
WAS - a while, but not so long. Most of the work they have done is prior to bomb drop so it's more like a "get'r'dun" time frame
WAS with transition - longer... they need to process and figure their life out... grab a magazine and GAL and give it a good amount of time to "bake"...
MLC - much longer... don't panic, though... yes, there are suggestions that some people never get out of MLC. Maybe that's true, but I am starting to believe that they DO... it's just that the change in them is so drastic and different than the LBS is willing to accept or believe, that it appears the WAS is in perpetual MLC... when they have simply settled into their new life and things are once again consistent and emotionally stable with them...
There are also similarities between all of these "types" that I think can cause a LBS to question what type of behaviour to anticipate from their WAS. But that's another story... lol...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I also think that an LBS needs to be wary that they could be at risk of having their own MLC during this time. It certainly appears this can happen, from some of the stuff I've read and feelings I've had, personally...
I would recommend that IF you feel yourself slipping into chaos and wondering what life really is all about... DON'T PANIC! And... prevent the chaos of crises...! take the time you might need to have your own, controlled and conscious (mini)transition if you would like...
God knows you probably have time for it...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
back to you, zig...
LBS work = Nothing the LBS does will matter during the MLC to directly affect positive change in M, let alone the MLCer.
The one other point that I might clarify is that on the suface what KD wrote may be correct however the journey of the LBS and MLC'er are tied together.
Those who refuse to make their changes who continue to beg, plead and cry will cause the MLC'er to STICK in the crisis.
We must get on with our lives and live "as if" they are never coming back.
Adhere to DB principles and rules as that is what will help to lead them through their crisis.
So no matter what kind of crisis they are in the LBS must DO the same thing.
In a nut shell, stop pursuit, work on self and let the other person "twist in the wind and crack their heads".
Nothing that we do will speed up the crisis but we can slow it down.
What the DB coaches, 25yearsmlc and others preach is what works.
That I am sure
wow - what a great discussion - and i hope that the vets and everyone else adds their bit. KD - everyone, thanks for responding. i need some time to reread and process it all myself
heck i was off line for a few hours and came back to all of this - it's great, i love it!
and KD - use my thread for a public discussion, all you want. this is where it's at - i'm finally GETTING it that it's not the everyday details that i need to chronicle here (though i'm sure i'll fall in that ditch every so often!!!)
it's these types of discussions that i think would be much more beneficial, as opposed to focusing on what he said, i did, i said he did - that is for sure the roller coaster. stepping off means seeing the bigger picture and finding one's way through it.
one thing that i have noticed over the last months as i have read through older threads in the archives - there was a lot more discussion along those lines in the threads than there seem to be now. now on most threads , people are writing about the details and others are supporting them and encouraging them to keep the faith, but these sorts of discussions are much harder to find currently.
what i'm finding that helps me the most to keep the faith and all the ingredients of the recipe at the forefront (as opposed to continuously worrying about every detail of the sitch), is when i read discussions such as these - where the bigger picture allows for empathy, understanding, patience and courage to stay still and stand where we are while AT THE SAME TIME gal and get our own life moving forward.
in fact - every time i think about the courage i need to stay the course, i start to cry. i guess i'm going through my own transition here. it's not that i don't trust that i can do it, i think it's more a combination of "wow, i didn't know i could be capable of this, and it touches me deeply" and "is this something that i can do and come out okay on the other side"
i guess until this sitch, i had no idea what i was truly capable of. and i'm sure that could be said of everyone else here, too.
oh sorry, did I sneeze...?
Gesundheit!
What I perhaps should have said was thank you, as this is a helpful condensation of a lot of themes that have come up recently on individual threads for which there was no concise response.
zig, I've notice the same about reading posts in the archives. There did seem to be a lot more discussion and exchange of ideas-more meat. But maybe it's that we're drawn to the threads with the discussions.
But maybe it's that we're drawn to the threads with the discussions.
Or the other ones have been deleted.
They do purge them here from time to time.
journaling
i've been reading intensively - jacks thread, the stages of the LBS and the MLC'er, these last few days - it's been heavy.
i had read the stages of MLC and HB's sermons twice in the last few months, and am now amazed at how much of it i didn't get then, and how much more i get now.
I can also see more clearly where i am in my own process, and understand why what i read before didn't "get through" as it does now. it leads me to believe that in another 2 or 3 months i could possibly be in the same situation - going through another level of understanding that is deeper and more freeing.
i am finally getting it, once again - that keeping my focus on h and what and why and how he's doing whatever, is more about taking the focus off myself and avoiding facing and working through my own issues.
i am now, with this slightly newer understanding, able to turn my focus toward myself just that little bit more.
yesterday was a great day - for the first time, i felt a bit free of this sitch and h. several little things happened, and came up in my mind - and they all had to do with getting a stronger sense of myself and what I could do and what I could be - without him.
i am finding out how entangled i was in how he wanted things (and recognizing how he was the same), and that now i truly do have the freedom to do certain things my way - not because i want to feel control, in any sense, but more because i am feeling MYSELF so much more strongly.
i can be late to a party because that's when i feel like going. i can buy teacups that i like (we were NOT allowed to buy any plates, mugs etc, since we were ceramic artists and should make them ourselves. mil and i broke that rule, and i was never forgiven for it)
so yesterday - i went to 2 parties - late as i liked, when i was ready to go - and hey nobody cared, or noticed and i had a great time. the second party - h and s had been there for 3 hours already - h couldn't wait to ask me why i came so late - just shrugged it off and said i'd been at another one first and had been having fun...
so the best thing that happened yesterday - in the afternoon was - i did a really good long session of yoga - without him in my head, and then a really long meditation right after - and he wasn't in my head for the first time. i could just feel myself, and who i was - and it made me so calm and peaceful
i'm dropping the rope here - after reading crimson's thread over the last couple of days - i feel that i am ready. there is NOTHING to resist, nothing to work for, except myself and who i am and what i want.
i don't need to fix anything, i don't need to take care of anything, except myself. my actions are already showing it - suddenly i am not volunteering to do stuff for h - not offering to pick s up to make his life easy, not trying to say or do things through wondering - is this the right thing to say or do.
i feel relaxed - in a different way. twinges of doubt come up, and they are suddenly really twinges (as opposed to putting me in a panic state of whether i DB'ed right or not)- and i find myself saying oh well, whatever - it's done, not going to worry about how he might be taking it - let's get on with other stuff.
when i let go - i am finding that good things happen. in the last weeks (and many of you read my long rants about SIL and her affair) - i worked hard on separating her out of this sitch, and accepting what she is doing and coming to terms with it and making peace with it - and then, surprise surprise - events led to her emailing me yesterday and telling me what a mess things were and how she and the woman she is having the affair with are having terrible completely unresolvable problems. contact was made and we talked on the phone and were reconnecting a bit. life just keeps going on, doesn't it....
so the secret is for me to find out and to let go of any and all resistance to what doesn't feel good around me, and to just find and stay with what feels good. each time i really do that, i FEEL myself more, good things happen for me and i can feel the possibility of other things than just this, that i want right now
oh and another good thing yesterday - i really felt for the first time, that OTHER things - good things were also a real possibility in my future - it is not something that i have really been able to even begin to feel until now.
i know this was long - but there is so much more that i am discovering. the vets are right , even though i knew that all along - it is one thing to agree with what they are saying - but quite another to genuinely get to that place where one can start and really BE it. and as has been written on this boards - too many times- you just can't do it unless you are ready to.
if one considers the "stages of the lbs" i think that i am going into acceptance, along with the depression and a twinge of resentment. to recognize it for what it is and to understand that it will pass and then i'll be in another stage - that is where the patience and understanding really starts to come for me.
i am so grateful that the amazing people here have spent all this time and energy documenting all of this, so that the ones that come next can make good use of it when we are ready to.
oh and another good thing yesterday - i really felt for the first time, that OTHER things - good things were also a real possibility in my future - it is not something that i have really been able to even begin to feel until now.
Absolutely! Now is the time for you to shine!
i know this was long - but there is so much more that i am discovering. the vets are right , even though i knew that all along - it is one thing to agree with what they are saying - but quite another to genuinely get to that place where one can start and really BE it. and as has been written on this boards - too many times- you just can't do it unless you are ready to.
I am finding that right now as well. I am reading all the old timer's threads, then get into the archives. It's amazing what is on here, and how hopeful it is to see other people's situations, and then see that there is STILL hope, in a R or not. For yourself.
yes LIO - i'm just getting a real sense of that - HOPE - not for the marriage being saved , but for myself being saved.
i will admit i am not fully there yet, if i am to be completely brutally honest - there is still hope for the marriage to be saved by what i am doing. but also the acknowledgment that even that will pass as the main goal with time, ask go through my changes.
HB had written in one of her sermons about how she felt when they were reconciling about where she stood in the relationship with her h. that because they had gone through each of their changes, they were in a sense, independent of each other - just coming together because they wanted to, and that she was confident that if they didn't stay together they could easily continue on their own paths without it being difficult.
i suppose the short translation of achieving that state in a relationship is the concept of "i will be okay no matter what"
ithanks
zig
if one considers the "stages of the lbs" i think that i am going into acceptance, along with the depression and a twinge of resentment. to recognize it for what it is and to understand that it will pass and then i'll be in another stage - that is where the patience and understanding really starts to come for me.
It is a nice place to get to!
Do not be surprised if you get there several times. In my experience I cycled through several times. Each took less time than the previous. Perhaps we learn to recognize cycling and move through more naturally
As for MLC, vs. WAS, vs. WAS in transition I would suggest not focusing too much upon how to classify the alien. It is natural to do so in the beginning. I certainly wasted time and energy upon it. I am not saying to discount these as they can come in handy if our spouses ever begin to move toward us. Sort of the same kind of confidence litmus paper offers “Yep thought that was acidic”, but it is all subjective, subject to our perceptions.
So I suggest not focusing, for when I ceased focusing upon her and what stage she was in, and began to focus on self, was where I can begin to count real progress.
It is a nice place to get to! Do not be surprised if you get there several times. In my experience I cycled through several times. Each took less time than the previous. Perhaps we learn to recognize cycling and move through more naturally
thanks just stunned - oh, i am beginning to get that, for sure - the cycling for me that is. i think i've been here before, but not along with the detachment that i am experiencing now, so it is a new level.
i tested myself a couple of times today - big grin, here!! i imagined him never coming back, and even thought of him staying with OW, and i didn't get that hole in the pit of my stomach, like i've always done before.
i do realize that i may cycle back into that again, but i believe if i do, it will be shorter and more temporary.
while reading the older threads i came across the "splitting" phase that HB describes.
very interesting,because there is NO DOUBT in my mind that that is what h has started to do recently. i'm writing about it here not because i am staying focused on him, but because it has been instrumental in my reaching this new place within myself.
i noticed that i was beginning to become way more resentful towards h these last 3 weeks than ever during this sitch - i was quite confused about it, because i have focused so much energy towards seeing him and his actions as compassionately and empathetically as i can - often being criticized for being too soft about him.
but his behavior (which is described by the 'splitting') was starting to really make me peeved - he was becoming so inconsistent, that it was getting intolerable - he seems to cycle back and forth through different personas sometimes several times a day. i found myself getting disgusted - but also realizing that i don't really understand what is going on. (i asked mil about it this morning, to confirm that i wasn't imagining it and she confirmed that she too has noticed that each time she sees him it's like a completely different person has walked in the door)
then i read the stuff about splitting and it was an aha moment - and suddenly the light bulb clicked on for me - and i got it. he is just in his own world, totally disconnected (and yes, now i am seeing why so many refer to their WAS as the alien - there are times where there is no resemblance whatsoever to the original!) and it really has nothing to do with me
alongwith the discussion we had in the last couple of days with cat and kd and others, reading about what stage i was at and what he is doing - it suddenly seems so simple - it's okay to let go, walk away myself for a little while.
HB and others are right when they say that the more you read and understand what they and yourself are going through, the more empathy and patience you will be able to acquire. and so suddenly i feel, at least for now, that i have this bottomless well of patience available to me, which is totally different from the patience i thought i had before.
i'm still DB'ing but it feels different now - more about myself than about him.
it's the fear, along with the resistance that does us in along this path. the more i work on and resolve my inner deepest fears, the less threatening the picture of h not coming back seems to be.
how interesting it is to find out how our conscious and subconscious minds really work
oops, sorry this got so long
thanks
zig
Acceptance, I've been there several times but each time I stay longer. : )
All part of the process.
i'm still DB'ing but it feels different now - more about myself than about him.
That's it! But don't be thrown if you go back and forth on this, It's not a linear process.
thanks labug - all you say is very true, and now finally i'm getting "experienced" enough at this to realize that it's not linear and that it will come up again and again!!
off to my sunday morning yoga class -
Hope you're having a wonderful morning yourself:)
zig
i'm focusing on just having positive interactions with h - with NO pressure.
now when i am really pulling back and dropping the rope - i can suddenly see so much more clearly , all the little ways that i have been pressuring.
so since sunday, i've made an effort to watch how i say things - and just allow us to be around each other without him feeling any pressure whatsoever.
so this evening h and s called to get the compressor and i asked if they could come after i got home so i could get to see s for a few minutes . he definitely took that as pressure and was quite tense when he arrived, but after about 40 mins when they left, he was relaxed and more easy going.
so i am just going to focus on myself and where i add pressure to the situation. it is so subtle, and i'm beginning to realize that h's biggest trigger for feeling pressure is ANY implication whatsoever that s may be affected by this sitch or that i may have a hard time being separated from s. his guilt over this is so huge (him taking s away from me for a week at a time) that i think i just have to let it go.
now that h's uni is out for the summer and s won't be in school, there are no reasons really for me to see s for the entire week that he is with h, unless i ask or they offer. i'm a bit sad about that - as i had been able to see him at least 3 times during the week he was away.
maybe it is good - that way they might actually miss me!!
right now, s just wants to be with h 24 hrs a day - because they are working on the house together - dreamland for s.
i'm staying warmly open and involved, by happily discussing the house and all the building details with both of them - and the three of us have had really fun conversations about it in the last couple of days.
it seems that whenever i show ANY resistance to h, in even the subtlest of ways - that's when he withdraws. when i show no resistance at all, he seems to relax more. am going to try that for a while.
it is a bit confusing for where to keep my boundaries - my wanting him to call before he shows up is seen as me resisting him.
what do you guys think?
meanwhile - i am finding it easier and easier to let go of the outcome in my mind - when it rises, i find i can just switch to something else and say to myself, whatever.
i've been busy being a "real" photographer in the studio taking pics of my shawls and have got some gorgeous images.
and then today - amazing luck - h's sister, who is getting a shawl for herself to wear for her friends' wedding, well - the friend has decided she wants one for herself and one for each of her bridesmaids - so that's seven!!
so that's a great little thing for my little business - and i just hope i have enough time because they have to be ready by next week!!
so i'm tired, dealt with one of the worst migraines i've ever had this morning (which had me crawling across the floor, because i couldn't walk) and which gave me the opportunity to toughen up and understand, that yes, there really is NO ONE to take care of me, and i damned well better start taking care of myself - so that was a good wake up call for me.
i toughened up, and as soon as i could walk around, got ready and went to the studio and forced myself to keep taking the photos, and at the end of the day - well heck, i made it and i got way better shots than i thought i would
so all in all, i'm in so much of a better place here.
zig
Hi Zig,
Thanks for sharing your perspective here. It is something I too am noticing - zero pressure about anything. I like the way you are instead directing your energy towards what you love and you are getting something out of that.
Also, while reading your comments, I realise too that my H wants zero pressure too - not a sniff. As soon as that happens, we take one step back. It is hard for me to be so damn detached and yet still love him. So, I admire your position and decision. I will take a leaf out of your book.
Thanks!
it is hard for me to be so damn detached and yet still love him
yes, YC, i know what you mean.
accepting is really about letting go of what was - and really understanding that it is over and accepting that
in some ways it is becoming easier now -
on the other hand i find myself having big twinges all of a sudden - where it sweeps over me, but then i immediately tell myself "i look forward to it working out, and i let go of the outcome."
i'm not looking to the future to define my "now" any longer. finally that power of now stuff is beginning to make sense
((( )))
hope your'e doing well - i've been following your sitch, even though i haven't posted. stay calm, pray for clarity in every moment and focus entirely on feeling good YOURSELF, no matter what
here's something my yoga teacher says at the end of the meditation session, and i use it several times a day:
As I go forth in this day, may I have clarity of thought (touch the third eye), clarity of speech (touch your lips) and clarity of intent (touch the space between the breasts).
journaling
at my last IC session, we talked about 'letting go of the outcome" - and how it just was a better way to live. T talked about it in terms of parenting too - how you could do all the right things and your kid can still grow up and go askew. it really helped me a lot - i had just finished telling her that it seemed as if my last resistance had to do with s and how he was going to be affected by all of this.
the conversation allowed me to let go of that to a large extent (it has definitely been my subconscious pressure towards h) and allowed me to get to a new place of relaxing into the now.
i still have a long way to go in my healing, but today i found out - that i have , and have had all along a wonderful companion on my journey. i know that a lot of people on this board feel really strongly about leaving the in-laws completely alone, but mil and i are getting closer. we don't talk much anymore about the sitch, in the last few weeks - it's as if we don't need to, but she and i are so very close and getting closer all the time.
she is on her own path to healing, which we talked about today, and laughed together about how the two of us were working so well on our own inner stuff, that none of the others would be able to understand what hit them.
she and i are co-conspirators in "keeping the faith" for this entire family right now - fil, h sil and s. and i think our strength together is phenomenal. we are both letting go of the outcome, but making sure that we are both working on ourselves. I always sensed that h and my crisis would trigger one off in mil, and i am really happy to see that she is actively working on her own issues.
so that was a quiet happy moment of "i don't know what" but it's all part of what's unfolding.
today, a small 180 for me - going to a school potluck tomorrow and i just told h that he needed to make the dish that i didn't have time. he seemed quite happy to.
then a few mins ago i called to say goodnight to s but he was in the shower. h seemed a bit chatty and wanted to tell me all about the pasta salad that he had made up - and i said that was wonderful we talked a few mins more, but then i just said casually that get s to call me when he's out. i think he sounded a bit disappointed - but you know, it's too bad. i didn't want the conversation to go on and on, just to end it while it was really positive.
then when s called back they were already in bed - and i had one of the best giggling laughing conversations with s, who was pealing with laughter. i told him at the end that when he gets off the phone to turn to h and give him a really good juicy tickling session and make h giggle really hard. h needs a good hard laughing session to lighten up his soul, even for a few mins.
i hope very much that as i am writing this, that that is what they are doing.
forgot to write about a couple of small (big ) things that i have seen change in h in the last couple of days - he has "reported " both to me, quite proudly and i have been very enthusiastic and admired his effort - a genuine reaction, because i really wanted these things all along
They both have to do with s - h was a very passive father - a great dad - but when it came to enforcing rules or getting s to be responsible, he just couldn't get there.
now, he has s,suddenly, just in the past week or so, taking on small responsibilities at his home (during that good conversation we had last saturday, he did mention that he had been very lazy about s's up bringing)
i am so pleased - so pleased that he is really trying to be a better and better dad and really does have s's best interests at heart as much as he is able to right now
it was very frustrating for me over the years, to always have to make the decisions on my own, after begging h to participate and there would only be an 'i don't know" and then later i would be accused of controlling everything.
even these small steps that he is taking now - they are such a relief - and i do believe that the more h finds that he is able to do them, the more he will add on.
i'm finding it VERY interesting, how very LOOOOONG it takes for h to process info and then make the changes. this adding on of responsibilities at home was discussed with s's teacher last fall at a parent/teacher conference - and is finally being manifested now.
funnily enough - this week , i somehow sense (and s hasn't said it at all) that s doesn't really want to come back to my place on friday. i think he wants to stay with h - so he can go build the house with him everyday. i think i will let h know and offer that he can get s every afternoon after school if he likes .
i want to see the sitch changing so that we BOTH have access to son most of the time - that it is more relaxed and casual and not so rigid. i'm confident that i can get to that in the next few weeks - the more open and accepting i am, the more relaxed we all are.
and that is my only goal any longer. i want my family to be relaxed and happy, even if we are in the midst of this painful sitch, i want us to accept where we are and be okay with it. it's more important for me to have that than anything else, right now
okay enough babbling
hope everyone is doing well
zig
Keep the faith.
Nothing is impossible.
Miracles happen everyday.
You are doing great:)
Thanks BK - how are you doing?
i often think of you - just here and there, and send you and your kids a good wish. i hope that you are keeping the faith too - and realizing that the biggest miracle that can happen for yourself is that you are going to be great no matter what..
(( )))
zig
so i need a little encouragement and support here. one of the things i've been fearing deeply has come up and i have to work through it and come out good on the other side.
during the movement disorder, one of the worst things we had to deal with were my dental problems. I just about exhausted every local dentist and was finally sent to a special care center, because it was so difficult for them to work with my teeth. the spasms caused a lot of strain on my teeth and therefore there was a lot of dental work that needed to be done.
i've not had to deal with any of that for about a year and a half - but now the last couple of days my wisdom tooth has decided to make it's presence felt in horrible ways - it was supposed to have been removed , but was left because the issues were so complicated.
h went through all of that with me - they have to practically anesthetize me to do any dental work - and even then the oral surgeon comes out of there looking like HE was put through the wringer - completely freaked out by my body.
now this morning i am faced with probably having to go through one of those ordeals without h and i am feeling very emotional and downright scared. i know for the last 10 months i have WILLED myself to not even think about that stuff- just telling myself that i can deal with it all alone.
i know my friends can help me get there and back home and i can leave s with h.
i am finding myself thinking - well, this is the next step - to really test and know that i can do everything without h.
i'm sort of a bit mad at myself for even thinking that i need him right now - it's not that i need him literally - it's that when things were really bad, he was the only one i trusted to be with me - and the sad thing was that it put a lot of pressure on him.
so i'm just crying here, and telling myself that now when i am better it won't be the same as before and not such an ordeal, and i'm just worrying unnecessarily in advance. that i'm ready to find out how to do these kinds of things on my own. that this is here to deal with now and not 3 months ago, because i am ready to deal with it.
just had to let it out here, because the mere mention of it to the family or even my friends is going to freak everyone out, because they know what used to happen before.
so , maybe a few "toughen up, zig" responses are what i need to hear right now!!
thanks
zig
Not so much toughening up as recognizing that you're grieving and it's legitimate. I've had a few of those experiences in the last 14 months.
It su*ks. There are times when this hurts a lot. We can recognize it, give ourselves a hug, and move on.
It's not that we can't do it alone, it's just easier with the support of someone we love.
(((z)))and hugs from friends help, too.
[bI]t's not that we can't do it alone, it's just easier with the support of someone we love.[/b]
thanks labug - and thanks for the hug. i am recognizing that it's part of the grieving and that it's okay to feel this and work through it quietly.
part of what i'm dealing with is that i don't want to ask anyone for help but will probably have to, and that makes me feel horribly vulnerable. i don't want to feel vulnerable - and that's my defensive side...
so working through this on several levels...
thanks for being here:)
zig
i've worked through this now - feeling a lot calmer and confident that i'm okay going through this -
it's odd, how things come up - and if i can keep myself somewhat calm, even if i'm very emotional, and allow it to sort of flow through me, i come out the other side working through it somehow.
now, of course i realize that it was not so much about h himself not being there to help and support me - it's more about me learning that i can take care of myself. that is something that i am still working through. even though i've been just fine on my own, dealing with stuff - the health stuff - which i had become so mentally helpless about, is of course here to challenge me at the right time, to give me the confidence (through the experience of going through it) that i really am fine on my own
so, one more opportunity to continue building my own inner strength and sense of confidence as i continue to move forward in my own healing.
journaling
strange new pattern that i'm seeing with h these last couple of weeks.
we still do stuff occasionally with my in-laws - mother's day dinner, mil's b'day at a restaurant and yesterday we were all at s's school for his school play and a potluck afterwards.
it seems as if h absolutely cannot look at me or talk to me when they are around. yesterday it became really clear, because they left the school before we did. it was like night and day - 2 mins after they left, he was talking to me, being friendly, taking care of business!! it was blatant to the point that when we sat down to eat, in-laws, s and i sat together and he was at the other table
i was cheerful, friendly , really quite indifferent in a genuine way - after all the reading on the mlc forums, i am getting detached enough that being around him seems to be bothering him, way more than it's bothering me.
anyone have any thoughts on this, or how to handle it?
fil, after what went down between us, is definitely looking at me as if he can't figure me out. i'm DB'ing with him - acting as if i'm fine - polite friendly as i've always been. he relaxed with me yesterday, i think he's finally realized that i'm not going to hold anything against him.
i guess this is a family post - but just journaling for myself.
SIL called me a last week to ask if she could come for s's b'day at the end of june. at first i was hesitant saying that i wasn't even sure we'd be here - that i may take son a trip (i was seriously playing with the idea of getting out of here to avoid completely and not have to deal with the party we usually have for him)
but after talking to s, and seeing how upset he was, i realized that i was thinking only of myself and my own pain, and not what he needs. so i told him we will go ahead and have the party we always do and let SIL know that it was great for her to come (frankly , i thought she should be asking h, not me...) the story about the party is a long one involving in-laws usual way of getting what they want, but you know, who cares - i'm so done resisting all that....
i think as i give up more and more resistance to all of this - and at least for me, it seems to be key for my own peace of mind - the whole situation becomes easier.
i feel as if i'm finally finding the "what works" for me scenario.
No resistance to anything that's going on + detachment +getting on with my own life, with not much thought for what they are all doing + letting go of the outcome
it's rainy and cool - yippee, i love cool - and i'm going to spend the morning working on my pics to put on line.
had my first interns visit with me yesterday - she's going to start next friday - so am psyched about that.
looking forward to the weekend and doing some activities with s - unfortunately our social life is within the community and h gets invited to all the parties we do. it's difficult for me to meet new people since i work at home - and so am trying to figure out ways to get around that. maybe i'll do a 180 and not go when he and s go and have plans to do something else - i actually don't care much to be in social situations with him - his presence really cramps my style these days with him acting all weird and uptight .
hope everyone has a wonderful day today
zig
could really use some advice here, please
h is making it very clear that even hinting at the 3 of us doing anything together is waaaay too much for him to even think about, let alone do. which is fine - i understand that he feels that as pressure and it doesn't bother me - i see it for what it is and where he's at.
there's a great parade downtown tomorrow - and he specifically told me on the phone today "I really want to take s to the parade"
i said great that was wonderful. (s is at my house this weekend)
so here's my quandary: I really want to go that parade.
Do I
1. casually say to H , i'm planning to go too, can we hang out together or shall I go with friends (they would be s's classmate and his family)
2. just go on my own
3. forego going - so as not to make s uncomfortable. this is not such a large town, and the chances that they don't see me there are pretty much nil
4. just go on my own with my friends, and let them make of it what they will..
I am really focusing on keeping all and any pressure off h. but with these kinds of situations - i'm not really sure what to do.
I'm really not concerned much about h seeing me there separately - i'm concerned about s seeing me there separately.
also, i haven't been to these parades with them in the past five years, because it was too difficult with my movement disorder to be in a crowd, but now, when i'm great, i want to go out and do all the fun stuff - and this is a fun parade - it's the Art Car parade that i used to take s to before the accidents (h would never come with us), and always loved seeing all the crazy cars all dressed up and wild.
hope someone can give me some DB'ing perspective on this
thanks
zig
Ziggi if ya wanna go, go. Have fun and take pics I love pics. Aim the camera at a blond with blue eyes preferably about 5'6"'. I'm depressed and need a distraction. I need you to go for me.. So there's my answer.
thanks rick!!
turned out that the street festival we went to tonight was the preview party for the parade, so all the cars were lined up there and s and i had a great time checking them out. there was great band playing. then we went into the Art Center, which is hosting the event and there was a poetry thingummy going on and s and i wrote and added to an epic poem that is already yards long. then we ran into some of his friends - actually my yoga teacher and hung out with them for a bit before coming home.
feel like we had a great GAL evening, even though it was a bit short - but very sweet.
ironic though - h was the one who let me know it was going on and fussed a bit about how he absolutely couldn't come with us!!
so you didn't actually answer my question - or are you trying to say it doesn't matter which way i do it?
i'm sorry you're depressed - let's see, what can i do or say to cheer you up? do you really think the blond pic will do it? we need something a little more long lasting and effective (sorry that was a very pathetic joke - i think OW is a blonde)
how about...hmmm
the picture of me downing a bottle of whiskey at 10.30 in the morning (on the Boulder school's campus on our s's field trip), right when a bunch of parents walk by? and when i say downing - i mean downing - bottom side up with my head thrown back!!!
so here's what they didn't know - that i can't drink to save my life - 2 shots and i'm out for the count. there wasn't even a full sip in there, thus the full tilt and the only reason i did it was because we were out there frozen to death and when i saw it in the car i thought to myself oooh that will warm me up just a tad.
hope that got at least a little smile on your face.
here's what i heard that i think about when i get really down - along with a hundred other tricks - "if your grandma told you that you should always make the best of things, then she gave you the secret"
when i'm really really depressed - i repeat to myself:
"I am so grateful to h for giving me this opportunity to wake up and find myself and become this wonderful, beautiful woman that I now am."
i was introduced to this woman by a friend today and the first thing she said back to me was wow you are beautiful. and i knew that what she was seeing was my joy. it made me feel really good.
so go look in the mirror and see how beautiful you are deep inside and appreciate what you've gone through and what you are now - you don't need no blue-eyed blonde to make you feel good - you can do that all by yourself!
friendly (( ))
zig
You sound good, zig.
Let go of H, and enjoy being you.
thanks labug and how are you doing ? i noticed you haven't been posting on your own thread for a bit, or am i missing it somehow?
it does seem a bit screwy - i'll often notice that the yellow new message thing isn't on, even though there's obviously a new message, so don't know what's up with that.
hope you're well
zig
No posts lately, nothing new.
But I'm in a good place.
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is" : )
That and knowing what you want vs what you need.
am proud of myself - a new 180 for myself tonight. found out from s (his 1st night back) that h has once again arbitrarily changed s's inhaler dose for his asthma - in spite of 2 very specific conversations in the last 2 weeks that i had with him where i thought it was clear that we would talk to each other before he changed it on his own. (he had done the same the last time s was there and i pointed out that it was half the dose and he agreed to do the whole dose. then last week he tried to talk me into taking s off the meds entirely and i said i simply wasn't comfortable with that and we should look into something else before we do that - he agreed)
i had to really keep my cool in front of s - went out for a smoke and talked myself down to a calmer place. i decided for once to give myself the 48 hr. rule before i talk to h about it. this issue, is of course extremely sensitive because it concerns s's health and decisions about it - which is what h fought me about the MOST for 10 yrs.
i'm not choosing the dose - the asthma specialist is - but h doesn't want to agree with it and wants s off the medicine cold turkey. if it wasn't s's life - i swear i'd let him test his theory - but i don't dare. i've spent way too many sleepless nights watching that child breathe to even risk it.
s is doing the best he has with his asthma ever since we switched to this specialist and followed his advice and h agreed when i pointed it out to him last week.
i've got to the point where i don't really give a hick what he's doing or what his state of mind is and how hard it is for him to remember things etc - but this is sons' health and i need to find the calmest, most appropriate way to get h and i on the same page. i'd like to see s without all this medicine too, but not just because we feel like it.
i see how things haven't changed so much for him - it's the same issue we always had - in the conversation, he agrees with me - at the doctor's he agrees with the doctor, but afterwards he says he didn't agree at all and wants to do it differently.
this is not part of his crisis, this is the part of his personality that makes it very difficult for him to say how he feels about stuff.
so my 180 is not to call him while i'm a bit agitated about this, and to wait until i have perspective and have completely and utterly calmed down. the old me would have been on the phone pronto confronting big time.
now it's the tactful gentle moves i'm developing and learning here (grin!!)
anyone dealt with kids and meds and WAS's not administering them correctly? how have you dealt with it - how have you solved it?
i don't want to make a big deal about this, because it has always BEEN a big deal, now i want to "do something different" to make this into a non-issue
and if anyone thinks that i am overreacting here, please tell me - i know i'm sensitive about s's asthma
thanks
zig
No posts lately, nothing new.
But I'm in a good place.
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is" : )
That and knowing what you want vs what you need.
hey sweet - glad about that.
you know i wondered about that - i've been reading your posts to others the last week or 2 and i've noticed a new tone of serenity in them that i don't think was there before.
of course, if you read my last post you'll see that i'm nowhere near serene or enlightened
there is a dilemma there now isn't there - when it comes to the kids and meds - does one apply quiet acceptance there too or fight like a big fierce mama bear?
hmm, that would be a good one for the Buddha!!
and you saying 'nothing new" - how could that be true? there is new stuff everyday - even the quiet little everyday things that pass unnoticed. you should post about those sometimes too - they are more important than we sometimes give them credit for... and much more instrumental to our healing, don't you think?
good to hear from you
zig
Hey Zig, you're 24 hours into your 48 hour 180. How are you doing?
Have you asked your husband why he wants to change the meds and what he's basing it on? That just seems odd to take such a decision for meds if you have no medical basis or experience for it.
Hope you have a good weekend.
Quiet acceptance of what is doesn't mean you allow yourself or others to be hurt.
Would H have a visit with the prescriber to talk about his concerns?
(In my world) Without that S would continue on his regimen. Of course you have no idea what happens when he's with H, so that opens a whole new kettle of fish.
thanks ces and labug for your responses.
it's a long story - but the gist of it is that inhaler meds stunt growth, and s10 is the size of a 7 yr old.
genetics do play a role in it - both h and are were under average in size as kids. but s is looking crazy small next to his classmates - he's just over 50 lbs while some of his mates are as much as 80.
h's attitude to the situation stems from his own experiences as a child - being horribly teased for being painfully small and for stuttering. i think he desperately wants s to grow and in his mind thinks that taking him off the meds will let that happen.
just like for everyone else -there are loads of details - but the issue here of course is who decides how much med s takes.
another thing that muddles the situation is that s's asthma is not the type where he suddenly can't breathe. most of his asthma problems arise in the winter, where something like a simple cold will compromise his lungs terribly and it can take upto 2 weeks to recover.
what we found with the new doc was that if we kept him on the correct dose through the summer when there are no symptoms, then the winter months went much better with fewer bouts. before that we always stopped in the summer (our own decision) foolishly thinking oh he's doing so welll, let's take a break, only to have the winter be a nightmare of non-stop illness.
so that's what is bringing this up now - it's turned warm , s is feeling great and so why not drop the meds?
i'm working through my own feelings here - and yes ces - i'm not saying anything until i've worked through all of this.
one of the things that comes up for me is that when s got sick in the past - i take care of him - h has to work and it's out of the question that he would miss work to stay home and take care of s.
this may sound selfish, but now i find myself thinking forward to next winter - if we stop the meds now, and s gets more sick in the winter, it will be me taking care of s while h is at work (we had a bit of an argument a couple of months ago, where i pointed out that h could keep s when he's sick instead of bringing him here and he wailed "but I have to work..."
in a way, h doesn't directly deal with the consequences of this long term - he's been comfortable in the knowledge, that because i want so badly to take care of s during these bouts, it can fall on me and he doesn't really have to deal with it
the other issue that has come up for me is great disappointment in h, this morning. so many conversations where we seem to decide something together and he simply does not seem to follow through. i find myself reliving all those disappointments - from 10 yrs - and feeling so sad. in the past that emotion just got hidden with defensiveness, irritation and anger. and now i can suddenly see that it was simple disappointment.
i need to work through that for myself. and get through it and let it go, before i can broach this subject with h at all.
so the 48 hr rule may stretch out longer, before i can deal with this.
tangled in this is the long conversation we had yesterday, when he came over and asked to talk about summer plans. i was going to post about it, but this med stuff came up. for the first time we talked together, making plans and ideas for what s could be doing this summer and i saw it as a HUGE baby step. now, i find myself wondering - is it just talk again and no follow through on his part? that would be disappointing again.
i look forward to being proven wrong on that score. right now, i'm just going to focus on the positive aspect that hey - we actually HAD that conversation and not worry about what happens next.
so after all my debating yesterday about how to go to the parade - unexpected move on h's part.
he called a few minutes ago, and asked what time the parade was (i'd texted it to him last night) i just replied noon. he asked if i was planning to go, and I said actually yes and his response was well why don't you pick up s from his class and i'll meet you there!!
most most unexpected.
of course i can't help thinking (nasty parson that i am), that it works out great for him - he's already on that side of town and if he had to come pick s up, it would be much more inconvenient for him.
oh well - whatever - a bit doormatty today, but who cares. i'm doing it for son.
i'm just going to thank him very sweetly for offering to take s for the afternoon so i can work (7 shawls need to be ready for wed - YAY) and go on my way.
oddly - i don't exactly want to hang out at the parade with him - just with s. funny how things shift. these days i'm not particularly eager to be around him much - probably has to do with all the splitting going on.
Hey Zig, Sorry to hear that you are having trouble with H over your son's health.
If it's any comfort at all, I can say that it does seem to be another part of the script.
My H stopped taking his anti-epilepsy medication (which, coincidentally, is used to treat bipolar disorder!) as soon as he went mlc.
I was always the one who wanted him to continue taking it when he blamed it for making him feel depressed (oh, why didn't I put 2 and 2 together back in those early days of obvious discord???).
H has also refused to wear a mouth-guard now that he's playing football and has encouraged S13 not to wear one for sports either. He knows that I think this is dangerous. If I disagree with him over this, he gets more entrenched in his position.
So, anything H can do to resist what he sees as my attempts to control him or the kids, he will do. In a big way. And stopping medication is one of these things.
Doesn't help your sitch, I know, but just thought I'd share.
Great news about the 7 new shawls! Keep it up!
"I am so grateful to h for giving me this opportunity to wake up and find myself and become this wonderful, beautiful woman that I now am."
Excellent perspective!
As difficult as many of our situations may be, I think it helps to consider that all of this happens for a reason. There is a lesson in everything; we just have to remain open. The most illuminating stuff doesn't come to us easily, but sometimes it takes something profoundly painful to wake us up to a new, improved reality. One that deep down, we *needed* to discover, but couldn't go there until we almost had no choice.
Zig, your words are so inspiring. Your journey has touched my heart and I wish you well as you continue on it.
thanks NLW - it helped me to read what you described with your h. and it did help when you pointed it out as being part of the whole pic and to do with resistance
you're right - this is just resistance - and the less i resist, the better off the situation will be.
i'm glad i'm following the 48 hr rule - i'm putting it aside for now - s is here for a week and i can give him the does he needs, and meanwhile i think i'll take the lesser beaten track on this one. instead of talking to h about it, i just realized a few minutes ago, that i am just going to call the nurse and have her discuss it with s directly and let him understand why half the minimum dose is not enough. then i will let s assume responsibility for carrying it out.
some may say that i'm passing it on to my child - but what i hadn't mentioned before is that if h is resistant - s is mirroring him in it, and telling us that he feels much better when he takes less. i believe strongly it is because 1. he absolutely hates taking it and always has and 2. he's using h's resistance as a way to get around it.
so how abouts I do a 180 here and let go of the responsibility, for once. i've carried it in ways no one else can see or understand solo for almost 11 yrs - frankly i need a break!!
thanks again
zig
journaling
had a wonderful day with s and his friend.
started out with waking up with the infection in my tooth spreading to my whole face - felt like a hot iron spike in there, but while i waited for the oral surgeon to call in the meds s and i went to the parade - h met us there - not too bad, being around him. the parade was happy wonderful...
h was a bit late and hot and covered in paint and had forgotten his sunglasses so was a bit miserable and complained a lot (laughing). i just didn't take it in, it's not my job to make him comfortable...
he was all ready to leave abruptly - suddenly turned and said out of the blue - ok see you guys later and started to walk off. i replied hey, i thought you were taking s with you. he looked almost shocked and then tried to cover it up and said fine.
(mil told me later that he had told her yesterday that he was taking s for the afternoon, so i don't really know what that was about...)
i went home, got my meds, meditated a long while and then started knitting. he called after 2 hrs to say he was returning s and fil would drop him off. then after s came back, he called an hour later to say he was really sorry and could he take s for the evening so i could work. i happily told him that we had made plans to go over to his mom's with s and his friend to swim after dinner. he said huffily - well, you seem to have everything covered. i didn't respond, but offered that he could take s tomorrow during the afternoon. he wouldn't commit and said he'd call in the morning. i was fine with that.
the boys played with the slip and slide all afternoon while i knitted, then i threw together some crazy dinner without stressing and we ate and went over and swam together.
i blew them away by doing a couple of bombs in the pool - but had to stop when i realized that my ear was also infected and hurt like heck from the water pressure.
but the three of us had a lovely time laughing and playing and then they wanted a sleepover. so we went to friends house to get his stuff and had a drink, and then came back and realized that the air mattress could only be blown up in the driveway with the car charger!!
so there were the 3 of us giggling and laughing in the dark outside at 10 pm blowing up the mattress. it was definitely mentioned that the "old zig" wouldn't have done it!!
just had a lot of laughs today with the boys - they are healing to me. i've always spent a ton of time with s and his friends and always feel so good with them. they teach me a lot about staying in the moment and unconditional love.
h has been offering a lot that he should take s so i can work. keeps implying that there's no way i can get my work done if s is around. i find it a bit odd, but then he really doesn't know the changes i've made, and doesn't seem to care to find out. he would be blown away to see how differently i function now - how i can transition easily, not get stressed about anything that's going on and how much faster i can knit. when he left 10 mos. ago, i would do one shawl over 2 -3 days because my neck was still in bad shape - now i do them straight through in 2 to 4 hrs. he has no idea. i also don't stress about working like i used to before.
so i guess it's understandable that he has this different picture - in a way one could say that there is an alien here in place of the old zig - but a very friendly happy loving one, who has only changed in positive ways
i've decided that i'm going to take him up on his offers to take s. mostly because then s gets to spend more time with him, and i get to put my little goal in place - that s gets to see both of us more and more frequently, no matter which house he is at.
so all in all, things were great today and i look forward to a similar day tomorrow.
got a potluck to go to, and my yoga class
You sound like you are skipping along just fine. Great 48 rule you have! I started that too a while ago - though not a full 48 hours, so maybe I will stretch it out to that.
One thing that I kept thinking when reading your posts was about was the book A Woman's Guide to Changing Her Man: Without His Even Knowing It by divorce busting queen MWD for some was to lower his resistance a bit.
Also, that resistance trait your H has, is one my H has as well. Most men do. I have since realised that my hammering home something creates more resistance too and doesn't work, and I can see you have discovered that as well. I wish I had learned or known about different ways of approaching my H, and we might not be where we are. But that's there the book above will help in giving you ideas on new ways.
And, eventually H will get to see the changes you have made. In fact, he probably already has just hasn't said anything. My own H was very much like that - everyone else saw changes, and my H was the last to say something (though he noticed a lot sooner than he let on).
You are doing well!
I just read your thread and wanted to say thank you for sharing all of your thoughts and insight. I found myself nodding along as I read.
I really enjoyed the "letting go of the outcome" I find myself worrying about outcomes and reminding myself that I am making these changes for me regardless of the outcome. Of course I only switched to this new philosophy fully this week so I'm sure it's all very new. But wanted to tell you your insights have been really helpful to me tonight.
thank you
Hey Zig,
Snap! I had an infected tooth last weekend - that hot iron spike is a killer!
Thank goodness for meds.
My dentist said tooth-grinding in sleep is a factor in these sorts of things - I was not surprised.
I'm now into 12 weeks of root-canal treatment. In the dentist's chair is a damn good time to practice those meditation techniques!
Best,
NLW.
thank you for your kind words brit - i've been following your sitch even though i haven't posted.
i give credit for that phrase to my IC - we talked about that last week.
maybe we should start a thread - best advice from our IC's, and people could post these sorts of things, so the rest of us could benefit?
i've noticed often that when i am reading others posts, they will mention something they worked through in C or what their C said - and it helps me tons.
i hope you are well and feeling a bit more peace with letting go. the relief that comes along with it grows everyday and allows me to turn my focus more and more towards myself and what is really important.
zig
while that drill is going non-stop? wow, your concentration must be amazing!
i don't know if i'll have that luxury - that is the opportunity to meditate while they work on it. in my case it's more like, knock zig out so she's almost dead , so we can work on her.
i'm visualizing that after the meds, they don't have to do anything in my mouth. will have to wait till next week to find out - since its memorial day weekend.
off to a potluck - baked scones with s this afternoon to take over - planning to have a great time, and try my violin out for the first time since the accident. the host is tuning it right now - sons's idea - you can never figure out what these kids are unto....
still digesting what went down between s and me this afternoon while we were mixing the scones - will post about it later
hope you're having a good weekend NLW and thanks for stopping by
zig
thanks YC - i need to read all these books
i don't know if i'm exactly "skipping along" - what i am trying to do very hard is stay in a good place as much as i can - by turning my focus to other things, even if it is just for a little while. i'm learning that when one does that it creates space, which allows for more insight and healing.
i guess when one turns the focus AWAY from what one is resisting (and we all know what THAT is) and instead towards something that one doesn't feel any resistance or angst about, it allows us to relax and then the real stuff can find it's way to the surface. then i deal with it and get back to a good place.
when that stuff rises though - i'm a sobbing mess, but it's less intense each time, and what's beautiful is that after i get through it, i feel a bit more space that is lighter. it's like you're allowing yourself to release the really deep stuff when you don't focus on the current cause of angst.
thanks for stopping by YC- i wondered how you were doing earlier today - have to "rush off" to the potluck - already late, so will post more tonight
zig
thanks joyful girl - i love your username
something is screwy here with the posts - i didn't see yours until this morning - luckily i was reading back!
I think it helps to consider that all of this happens for a reason. There is a lesson in everything; we just have to remain open. The most illuminating stuff doesn't come to us easily, but sometimes it takes something profoundly painful to wake us up to a new, improved reality. One that deep down, we *needed* to discover, but couldn't go there until we almost had no choice. i've "known" this from the start - but gosh - the way our minds and hearts work - one would thing that "knowing" this would just allow us to peacefully move forward, understanding the reasons for why it is happening, with no resistance whatsoever, just confident that this is the next stage of our lives.
but acceptance added to the above, puts us under a whole other system of pressure that takes an inordinate time to resolve. i'm starting to see that before there is acceptance, there are a whole series of steps to go through - and for me they involve a deeper and deeper understanding of how i was, what i have to emotionally work on and release and the new place i come to.
i wonder if acceptance only really begins to come, when one changes so much that one literally isn't the same person they were before, and then the old "needs" don't apply anymore?
i couldn't see that before, when i hadn't changed and resolved enough issues to be truly in a different place, but now as the shift is happening i start to feel that?
thank you for your kind wishes jg - and i am touched by the thought that i could possibly inspire anyone - i hope that you are doing well - you sound strong yourself - which is impressive,
zig
I love the idea of that IC thread!
journaling
and brit - yes we should start it.
had a ragged day today - sharp edges and a lot of wobbling and teetering over, but now at the end of the day a lot has come to light for myself.
i'm seeing our relationship in another light and understanding more deeply why it didn't work.
a conversation with mil, and thought what i discovered didn't come up during it, it was triggered by something she said.
i found that even though i thought i trusted h implicitly during our marriage, it wasn't true. i didn't trust him, and that's how i sabotaged a lot in the relationship.
it was a real eye-opener for me - to find that out. a few days ago i had finally been able to understand how disappointed i was in how he functioned and had hidden that emotion behind anger, but now when i realize how much i didn't trust him, it's back to me and the reasons for it.
so of course it leads to the whole fixer/controller issues i had and why i have them. it's painful to let go of the control, and as i let go of it, these things are coming to light.
so i had this crazy dream right before i woke up this morning that had me ragged through most of the day. it was like there was such a strong message there and i couldn't get the message. the dream itself was about one of my biggest fears in this sitch - h marrying ow and to boot, my mom was hanging out with her!! in the dream i was not angry or hurt or upset - just incredibly frustrated. the emotion was huge.
so of course i was freaked when i woke up - i felt as if my sub-conscious was betraying me utterly by letting me dream that.
but at our cookout this evening i talked to one of s's friends mom whose a therapist and asked her what her take on dreams was.
i didn't tell her what the dream was about . i just said that in the dream one of my very conscious fears was playing out that i didn't want to happen and that the emotion i felt in the dream was incredible frustration.
she replied that i was just working my fears out and that it didn't mean it was going to happen. i asked her if there was a message in the emotion i felt and she said that what was always a good starting point was to take that emotion and ask myself "how can i help others with this?" and that it would lead to an opening of ideas and thoughts that would just keep moving.
i don't know if i explained that very well. but i came home and then it hit me - the frustration i feel has been there for years - and i've always been passive about it - and that how i could help others is by finding a way to get rid of it within myself. and then i saw how i still after all this reading and working on myself, continue to feel incredibly frustrated because i actually don't take the right action for me and others.
i don't talk to and let h know when something is bothering me. i'm waiting for him to fix it, because isn't it so obvious already that it's a problem? thoughts like that started coming into my mind and it led me to call him and apologize for blowing off him wanting to make another appointment with the therapist for s (a month ago - i was frustrated because he hadn't made it for 2 weeks and called to suggest doing it the evening of the day we had agreed to go)
to my utter amazement and confusion, he just simply said yes we could go - very coolly, and said he'd set it up.
even then, i found myself not trusting his yes - but am going to stay with it and LEARN to trust when he says he'll do something that he means it. i'm finding myself wondering whether that was more the case in the past, but because i didn't trust him, i caused whatever it was to fail or not go as well. i'm still disconcerted and not sure at all if he really wants to go or is just saying yes because i asked, but maybe it's time for me to change my way of thinking and understand that his is a different way to go about things (in my mind, if he had really wanted to go he would have pushed the issue, right???)
so i'm learning a lot here - not so easy to put into words, but new awarenesses on a "feeling/sensing" level.
aaah , i wish i could say all i wanted to say in a shorter more compact form - i admire all of you that can write so concisely - it embarrasses me that my posts are so long!!
btw - s and i had a great time tonight - the works - lots of laughter, lots of playing and a good weeping session by me in the driveway - yes i have wonderful friends - even that didn't put a damper on the party - we just laughed about it together - that was a first for me!! weeping at a party!!
but it's good now
zig
So there were about 5 places I wanted to quote and say YES me too!!! LOL
I had quite a few dreams like that. One where I met her and I thought she and him were just friends now and then she casually said so when do you plan to change your last name and then I flipped out on him. I too got angry that even in my dreams I was robbed of peace.
I totally know what you mean about not trusting. It happened so many times. And I still have to stop myself from reminding him about appointments and instead giving him that space to be independent.
thanks brit - the thing that upset me is that i rarely ever remember my dreams and really am happy when i do remember one - and this was not one that i would have chosen to remember!!
i'm a bit reassured that others have had the same experiences - sometimes i feel that i am over the top i n my reactions and how i am emotionally dealing with my sitch - that i'm "abnormal", and then ir sad here, and realize that no - everyone goes through the same thing
hope you're well today.
zig
i don't know if i'm exactly "skipping along" - what i am trying to do very hard is stay in a good place as much as i can - by turning my focus to other things, even if it is just for a little while. i'm learning that when one does that it creates space, which allows for more insight and healing.
i guess when one turns the focus AWAY from what one is resisting (and we all know what THAT is) and instead towards something that one doesn't feel any resistance or angst about, it allows us to relax and then the real stuff can find it's way to the surface. then i deal with it and get back to a good place.
when that stuff rises though - i'm a sobbing mess, but it's less intense each time, and what's beautiful is that after i get through it, i feel a bit more space that is lighter. it's like you're allowing yourself to release the really deep stuff when you don't focus on the current cause of angst.
This is such a great description of how I feel too, Zig. Beautiful, both honest and hopeful. Thank you.
thanks need grace -
i'm sorry for your sitch - this back and forth and final cutting off as described in your tag line , must be very painful for you.
i wish you great strength - and hope that you are in a good place and feeling strong .
have a peaceful day
zig
yes I am having a good day thank you.
I am so grateful for this community. I felt really loss before and it's so comforting to know you're not the only one. In our society D is so common that I felt like I should be able to just get through this and pick myself up. And that just made me feel worse because I hated that I wasn't handling it better. anyway I'm so happy to be here get support and know that we're not going it alone.
i'm a sobbing mess, but it's less intense each time,
My IC said this was grieving and needed and that I shouldn't suppress it.
In our society D is so common that I felt like I should be able to just get through this and pick myself up. And that just made me feel worse because I hated that I wasn't handling it better.
I struggle with this terribly too. especially since my core values about marriage and children are strongly about making it work.
i didn't grow up knowing anyone who was divorced etc. in india it just wasn't common back then.
now as i talk to people, i am finding out how many and how common it is. and all these remarriages and stuff. and all i see is that people aren't happy and how children, who are now adults carry all this stuff about it
one of the books i read a while ago, talked about how the WAS or person in MLC should make their decisions based on their core values , not on their current feelings. I look forward to the day when h is able to do that - base his decision on his core values. he feels as strongly about families as i do, and i really wish that he will get to that in the future - that it is worth it to make another effort before giving it up altogether
zig
hi everyone
i'm finding in the last few days that i need to develop my listening skills better.
things have come up in conversations between me and h - in the past few days, where now that i have stepped back a bit, i see stuff i couldn't see so clearly before.
obviously i am not LISTENING to what he's saying. some small response of mine will set him off.
i see more and more clearly that certain conversations go well - these are the ones where we stick to talking about s, or his school etc., about how great s is and general stuff like that. also conversations where something happened at school, like someone messed up, and then he's like his old self really getting into the details of it, laughing together and criticizing what they did.
the conversations that do NOT go well are the ones where we are discussing co-parenting issues. like what we want to decide for him etc. (R talks have stopped completely, thank God)
i think the message that i am getting from him is - "don't go there (broach the subject) unless I do, unless I feel like it, unless I'm in the mood. If you bring it up, i'll be pissed, because it's too much pressure"
so one day, he's coming to me and saying things like "let's decide together what s does this summer"
and then if i call him and say "i'd like for you and me to take care of taking s to swimming lessons, not your mom" i get a very angry response.
in the same let's decide together condo, he talked about how guilty he felt that he had never thrown a baseball with s.i suggested that maybe we could go play frisbee together or go bike riding (things I nEVER did )
believe me i saw right away - big WRONG MOVE!! that was such a HUGE amount of pressure for him that the conversation that was going pretty well, just slid downhill into the ditch - his whole demeanor changed and he got tense and pulled back and withdrew completely.
i attempted to "save" the situation by pointing out that i had only suggested that because on our Boulder trip, when he suggested dealing with s together , the consequences had been really positive.
so clearly - any suggestion of us doing anything together (3 of us) freaks him out totally
anyway back to the listening thingie -
anyone have good reading suggestions or links on line about how to listen better?
or if thy've come across some good posts here about discussions about listening better to your spouses?
on the other hand, it hasn't escaped my mind that the reason i cannot clearly understand and hear what he's saying is because he's saying everything and nothing and is not consistent with his words and his actions, so how do i deal with that?
Well, now you know not to suggest doing things with the 3 of you, let him bring it up, eh?
As for listening - I think Al Turtle has some stuff on his site, if you google his name it should be the first thing that comes up.
If he broaches the idea of deciding what S should do for the summer, could you say, "that's a great idea, S would really like that, he recently said he was interested in XYZ (or leave this part out) what would you suggest?" The way you phrased your response above sounded more like a demand that he interpreted as pressure. Alternately, you could suggest that you will take S to, e.g., swimming, and is there anything H would like to take him to?
Just a thought.
more thoughts:
i see my own role here that is an old pattern, that i'm trying to change now that i am more aware of it. i think it is a combination of expectations , hope disappointment and confusion.
here's how it goes
h throws out some idea or suggestion, talks about it in detail and gets me to agree. I believe and am convinced that this is how he wants to do it. then i expect him to follow through because he has spent time and energy convincing me about it.
As time passes, he doesn't seem to follow through, if i ask i can see he takes it as pressure, so i don't say anything.
after a while i am struggling with disappointment and in the past it built up to resentment (not anymore)
and then i'm just confused because i simply can't figure out what he wants.
so now, of course i realize that it's my own expectation that created my downfall in the situation and so i'm starting NOT to expect, even if he suggests something.
but here's where it gets screwy for me - in the whole co-parenting arena and that's really all i want to focus on right now
i simply do not know where he stands, on any issue - maybe he doesn't either, and i'm just going to take it for granted from now on that unless he makes it really clear, i'll assume he's not interested!
right - sounds like a good way to go BUT
that's what we did before, and i REALLY REALLY want to change that dynamic between us.
i know that i get excited when he suggests something, because i really want him to suggest it and want to try it his way, but then he pulls back and doesn't want to commit to it. i'm thinking that even showing my pleasure at his suggestion makes him uncomfortable
so if anyone has any thoughts on how i could change in this, i would really appreciate it.
maybe to add - this is one of h's MOST sensitive areas - he felt i controlled every decision to do with s. from where i was standing - i hated it, and wished so much that he would be more active himself. i only decided because a decision eventually had to be made. (i do confess also that in the past, i was pretty adamant about doing things a certain way, and even went to the extent of doing something that he totally disagreed with but allowed - taking s to an alternative med doctor)
now , decisions do have to be made - we've managed to sort of go along in some kind of limbo -with doing things very separately, but i feel as if we are transitioning into a new place, where he is at least allowing a discussion to begin about talking about s together.
so i want to get better at hearing what he is trying to say, and to learn to back off better and wait for him to be more clear for himself
thanks
zig
thanks verab
groan - i knew the second it came out of my mouth that i had said the wrong thing.
actually no - he first agreed quite happily - yeah that sounds good. and over the next minute or so, his whole demeanor changed completely..
oh well - live and learn.
i have a lot to learn about how to ask or say things - it's still fake for me, in the sense that i know what i want to ask, but apparently the way i ask it comes out as control or pressure.
i have felt so much pressure over these last months, trying to figure out how to say things in a way so that it is not taken like that. the sad thing is that my intention isn't at all to pressure or control, but that's how it comes out.
this was something interesting i read today from an astrology site i frequent which gives information in terms of long and short term influences - i'm copying it here because it is entirely about this, which i thought was very interesting
This influence indicates a general reworking of your relationships with others, and you may not always be happy about the outcome. In general, others are resisting your efforts to control the relationship, which you may be doing in spite of your best intentions. But your partner will not ask that the relationship be totally destroyed unless you are so rigid and unwilling to change that there seems no other way out. All your partner wants is to redefine the relationship so that he has a greater say and more room to move. It is possible that these effects may work the other way, that you are the one who is struggling to gain control in a relationship. In either case, the relationship has to express each of you more appropriately than in the past.
there is so much truth here - and it is put so clearly.
if i am indeed "controlling the relationship, in spite of my best intentions" or did do so in the past (and that's how h sees me still, and it gets reconfirmed by the little things i say ), then i have to say that i DON'T at all want to be "rigid and unchanging in my ways"
i feel i have changed a lot, but still keep finding stuff within myself that i need to work on - and this listening/controlling thing is definitely at the top of the list this week
thanks for your response and i will go check Turtle out. also thanks for the example of how to rephrase questions - i need to practice.
zig
It does take practice, zig, but I think once you're more aware of it, it will come easier to you. I have some training in mediation and I have used some of those techniques well in my interactions with customer service reps when things go wrong rather then going crazy on them. This includes always thanking them for their help even if they weren't necessarily that helpful and asking questionins in a neutral, open way like, "Can you tell me more about that?" rather than demanding an answer or dictating the direction of the conversation.
Now that I think about it, part of our training was learning how to validate. I always struggled with that in practice. It's not natural, but if you can slow down your brain to process the information that comes in, and add in that step before you jump to the next thing (i.e. what you think should be done), it might help.
Once again, I need to take my own advice!
Thank you for opening up Zig, I identify a lot with your conversations with your H. I did a lot of guessing what he wanted because he never made it clear. I'm looking forward to what others suggest
PS - you posted on YankeeCandle's thread about a recipe for success - would you mind sharing that again? Thanks!!
alright - right now i simply cannot find which post i got this from - i think it was in the MLC thread and i don't have time to go hunting for it.
so apologies to not acknowledging the author - someone on this board. maybe someone will recognize it and chime in.
i had copied and pasted it into a word document - so took it out from there to paste here. i printed it out, and i do read it everyday - it really helps to remind me that i am standing, when i get caught up in stuff with h.
i've actually found myself just saying them in my head as i'm coping with an emotional moment and it helps me to re-center once again. patience, pma, faith etc:)
also in that thread - later someone added COURAGE - and i agree - lots and lots of courage.
enjoy
zig
RECIPE FOR SUCCESS

PATIENCE-You will need a large quantity of patience. If you lack patience, you will first need to acquire it before proceeding with the recipe.
PMA-A consistent Positive Mental Attitude is necessary in dealing with the insanity of your spouses MLC. Without this ingredient, the recipe will be a failure.
FAITH-You need a strong faith, and to believe this experience is about the lessons God wants you to learn. That in all crisis situations in life, is when we learn and grow the most. Put your trust in God. What ever happens will be Gods will.
PERSAVERENCE-You will need to find this special ingredient. There will be many times when you want to give up. Without this ingredient you might as well scrap the recipe, and ask for a divorce. Perseverance can be found deep within yourself, you just have to look for it.
PRAYERS-You will need a daily dose of prayers. You can not survive this journey alone, you need to ask God for help. Ask God to give you the strength to not give up and to guide you on your journey.
LISTENING SKILLS-Good listening skills are necessary for your spouse to trust you and be open with you. Do not try and defend yourself, it will just make your spouse withdraw.
LEARNING SKILLS-This recipe would not be complete without good learning skills. You need to read and understand as much as you can about MLC, it will help you in dealing with your spouse, and be less angry towards them.
Knowledge will give you greater strength and make you feel more in control of your life.
EMPATHY-You will need this ingredient as you learn more about MLC, and have a better understanding of the pain and turmoil your spouse is feeling inside themselves.
COMMITMENT-Without a commitment to never, never, ever give up, you will bale out early on from all of the pain and agony. Remember, no pain, no gain.
FORGIVENESS-You will need to learn how to forgive your spouse, and to forgive yourself.
"Forgiveness Is A Gift You Give Yourself"
UNCONDITIONAL LOVE-You will have to discover the meaning of unconditional love, that no matter what you or your spouse has done to hurt each other, or misbehaved during your marriage, you will need to love each other and yourselves unconditionally.
LIFES LESSONS-You will need to learn life’s lessons. That throughout our lives, we grow Physically, Emotionally and Spiritually. That this MLC experience, is a great opportunity for both you and your spouse to grow, and learn all that you are supposed to learn at this stage of life.
LETTING GO-You will need to finally detach or "Let Go" of your spouse. Set them free. You have no control over weather they return or not. If they decide to return, it will because of how you have treated them and acted towards them through their MLC journey.
By letting go, you will be giving your spouse the space they need to work things out themselves.
TIME-Lots of time is needed for this recipe to work. If you don't give your spouse the proper amount of time they need, you will lose them. It is their journey, they are in control of how much time they need. Don't try and rush things. Its probably a good time to toss in another handful of PATIENCE, you can never add to much to this recipe.
SENSE OF HUMOR-After you have found and mixed together all the ingredients listed above, it is time to lighten up and enjoy life. A good sense of humor will get you through the most trying times. Trust me, it doesn't get anymore trying then dealing with a spouses MLC, not even the death of someone close to you.
The greatest chance for success with this recipe is to consistently add all of the ingredients. Do not forget any one ingredient, or put to little amount into the mix. You may need to tweak the recipe for your own taste.
There is no one MAGIC ingredient that will cure MLC. It requires a well thought out plan and process. There are no shortcuts.
I am going to list ingredients that have been used in past recipes for dealing with MLC. It has been shown that these ingredients do not work and should not be used.
Do Not Use These Ingredients:
BEGGING, PLEADING, CRYING-Do not use these ingredients, they have done nothing more than push the spouse with MLC further away.
CONTROL/MANIPULATE-Use of these two ingredients will lead straight to disaster. Trying to control your spouse will make them run very fast and very far away.
THREATS- Threatening your spouse with divorce will do nothing more than aggravate the situation. It will not make your spouse desire to return home.
FIXING, CHANGING, CONVINCING YOUR SPOUSE -Forget trying to fix or change your spouse, that’s not your job. As far as trying to convince your spouse that what they are doing is wrong. Save your breath.
ANGER-Do not become angry towards your spouse. They will return to you greater anger. Give love and, ACT AS IF you are happy and life is good to you.
GUILT-Trying to make your spouse feel guilty about leaving you and the kids will not work.
Your spouse is very self centered at this time, they only think of what they want. They are tired of trying to take care of everyone else’s needs while neglecting their own.
ACCUSATIONS/BLAMING-Accusing your spouse or blaming them for all the problems in your relationship will do no good. They are already convinced their unhappiness in life is because their married to you. So don't go there.
DEFENDING-When your spouse tries to tell you what it is that they don't like about you, don't try and defend yourself. Just sit there and listen, give them full eye contact and validate what they are saying. You don't have to agree with them, but you need to validate that what they think and feel to them is the truth. Weather it is or not, it does not matter.
i am too brit.
i'm sorry i haven't come to post on your thread - i'm struggling here with putting enough time in on the board- by the time i try to catch up and read, it's so late at night and then i don't have the energy to post.
the antibiotics they put me on are so strong that i am knackered this week.
but i am quietly reading and keeping up as much as i can.
gal'ing this evening with a bunch of friends from s's school - last day of school so we are having an impromptu potluck and disco party at one of the houses.
should be fun. i have two rosemary/orange roast chickens in the oven - the house is starting to smell good, and i feel good, in spite of the things going on with h.
today one more step towards being the strong, independent woman i am meant to be (yes labug - your words ring in my ears all the time) and am well on the way to being -
and i love myself more everyday - because everyday i see that no matter how bad this sitch here seems to get, my heart is opening more and more and i am loving more and more, both myself and my family. i only see now how little i loved myself and how little i thought of myself all these years..
verab - i spent a couple of hours on Tuttles site last night - there's so much more to read - but it really helped - thank you.
later when i have more time , some more questions..
gentle, joyous smiles to all
zig
Thank you Zig for posting this!!! Ok, yes, I will apply this to the best of my ability. At least I am having some physical contact with him and that satisfies me for the time being. I do miss talking to someone though I must say.
My mother also advised I go to the dinner with lightness, zero demands and very neutral, indifferent was the word she used.
So, brilliant timing. Thanks again for posting that!!
Thanks for this!
Glad to hear that Turtle helped... he sounds like a crazy, rambling old guy but his wisdom really comes through!
Feel better!
How you doing, zig?
A few things that I wanted to say...
First, about being frustrated and being sure your H must see the "problem" and fix it. My dad was complaining about a burn pile on the yard and being upset that I didn't clean it up. His frustration was that I knew there was a problem and didn't do anything about it. Funny thing, that. I am not around the burn pile so never knew there was a problem.
Just because WE see a problem, doesn't mean others see it. Or... it doesn't mean that they see it AS a problem.
Second, you mention about trusting your H. What is interesting about this is it appears that many people put more weight on trusting their spouse than is warranted or than they would place on people other than their spouses.
People who have trust issues simply do not put trust in others. At least not to a great extent. Yet somehow, when they say their vows, they place unwarranted trust on their spouse. So the untrusting spouse places trust that would require their spouse to be and do exactly as the untrusting spouse would. Something that is impossible, even if the instructions were crystal clear and there was no mind reading required by the spouse who was being "trusted".
Trust is a condition of having expectations of the results.
We can trust everyone when we get rid of our expectations.
Said another way, certainly ask your spouse or friend to weed your garden. And then trust them to weed the garden. Just not to weed the garden exactly as you would. Rather, trust them to weed the garden exactly as THEY would. And also trust them to possibly NOT weed the garden, even if they said they would, for reasons that only make sense to them.
Trust... without expectations of results... so maybe change the word... to entrust... hand it over... and let it go... trust that what ever the results... were exactly as they were meant to be...
and talking about expectations segues into believing none of what he says...
but not really don't believe... rather, what he says are simply words that are coming out of his mouth... not actions... so as those words come out, you are attaching meaning to them and then setting yourself up to have expectations around them...
it could be that your H is depressed, so just because he says something, doesn't mean that he will do the actions that are suggested in his words... depression is like that...
then again...
this is someone whom you didn't trust... and he likely knows that... and further, he knows you took charge with family stuff... you controlled the family stuff...
so he might think of an idea and put it out there, but expect that you will take charge / control and do it... or if not, then he would do it and would be chastised for the WAY he did it... not up to your expectations... he doesn't trust that you actually will entrust him to something...
those possible reasons above don't matter...
what matters is getting rid of the expectations around what he says...
listening is like that...
let him talk... listen... and let it go...
if it had something to do with you with a request... then listening means confirming that a request was made... and then confirming the request... and then... acting on the request...
otherwise, they are just words... listen... be engaged in paying attention to him... and then let it go... he is probably not asking for feedback or suggestions... so don't offer unless he specifically asks...
hope that all makes sense and might be helpful...
How you doing, zig?
A few things that I wanted to say...
First, about being frustrated and being sure your H must see the "problem" and fix it.
Just because WE see a problem, doesn't mean others see it. Or... it doesn't mean that they see it AS a problem.
You're very right KD - my assumption that he sees it as a problem the way i do, is what always got us messed up, because then i had expectations. this is a good area for me to do a 180 in. i have to stop assuming that - and if there's really a problem, then discuss it calmly with him, or figure it out myself and let it go.
Second, you mention about trusting your H. What is interesting about this is it appears that many people put more weight on trusting their spouse than is warranted or than they would place on people other than their spouses.
People who have trust issues simply do not put trust in others. At least not to a great extent. Yet somehow, when they say their vows, they place unwarranted trust on their spouse. So the untrusting spouse places trust that would require their spouse to be and do exactly as the untrusting spouse would. Something that is impossible, even if the instructions were crystal clear and there was no mind reading required by the spouse who was being "trusted".
Trust is a condition of having expectations of the results.
i've never thought about it that way. you're right - and then, when our expectations are not met... well we know what happens then
We can trust everyone when we get rid of our expectations.
wow - when i read this, it's like a light bulb came on. thank-you
Said another way, certainly ask your spouse or friend to weed your garden. And then trust them to weed the garden. Just not to weed the garden exactly as you would. Rather, trust them to weed the garden exactly as THEY would. And also trust them to possibly NOT weed the garden, even if they said they would, for reasons that only make sense to them.
this is where i've been really lacking, KD. i always expected him to do it the way I thought it should be done - not even beginning to imagine that it could be done another way. this is the grand 180 i need to do. and i am so grateful to you for helping me to see this. i'm ready to see it now, i don't think i was all these months. and to further trust them to possibly not do it at all - that is really letting go and having no expectations
Trust... without expectations of results... so maybe change the word... to entrust... hand it over... and let it go... trust that what ever the results... were exactly as they were meant to be...
yes yes yes!!! this is the crux of the issue for me right now - and this is the attitude to learn to be, to adopt , to live
and talking about expectations segues into believing none of what he says...
but not really don't believe... rather, what he says are simply words that are coming out of his mouth... not actions... so as those words come out, you are attaching meaning to them and then setting yourself up to have expectations around them...
i have just been coming to that myself over the last few days. that i don't NEED to attach any meaning to anything he says any longer. mil said to me the other day - don't forget what h does - he thinks aloud - it doesn't meant anything except him thinking aloud. and for years, i have got caught up in his "thinking aloud" and always landed up in a mess of expectations and disappointments. NOW, finally i am beginning to see, that what he says doesn't MEAN anything - it's what he does.
it could be that your H is depressed, so just because he says something, doesn't mean that he will do the actions that are suggested in his words... depression is like that...
i always thought he was depressed, from early on - and i would ask him and try to talk about it with him - and his answer was always - "no, i'm not depressed, you are. you are the one whose all f'ed up with your history, i had an easy life, i'm not depressed.
now, i can see the depression - emanating from him. in his body language, the way he carries himself etc. he has to come to his own awareness and help himself through it. i'm here to support him, if he wishes, or asks for it, but not my job to point it out or get him to that awareness. his mom has tried to talk to him about it - he just gets extremely angry and walks away from her...
then again...
this is someone whom you didn't trust... and he likely knows that... and further, he knows you took charge with family stuff... you controlled the family stuff...
yes, i see now, how i did, and still have done until recently. it's not control as much as getting excited to just get on with it and then my crazy energy just takes it over. i've finally realized, that that is not how h functions - he wants to make the decision but it takes him so much time - and my impatience has always stood in the way - i've caused a lot of problems by being so impulsive and impatient, not realizing that my excited behavior completely OVERWHELMS him. it's only now that i am starting to see this really clearly.
so he might think of an idea and put it out there, but expect that you will take charge / control and do it... or if not, then he would do it and would be chastised for the WAY he did it... not up to your expectations... he doesn't trust that you actually will entrust him to something...
right on the mark again - is this universal - or only me?
those possible reasons above don't matter...
what matters is getting rid of the expectations around what he says...
listening is like that...
let him talk... listen... and let it go...
if it had something to do with you with a request... then listening means confirming that a request was made... and then confirming the request... and then... acting on the request...
otherwise, they are just words... listen... be engaged in paying attention to him... and then let it go... he is probably not asking for feedback or suggestions... so don't offer unless he specifically asks...
THIS is the part i haven't really got until now -. i've been expecting him to ask for feedback, assuming that even though we're separated, we can function together in some ways, for co-parenting. but i realize now that he is NOT asking. he isn't really remotely interested. he seems to be, but he is not. i think he just is testing to see my reaction and then i've been confirming for him time and again, that when he throws something out there and i have an instant response - there zig goes again, controlling the situation.
hope that all makes sense and might be helpful...
wow, KD - your post was gold - thank-you.
you have helped me identify some crucial 180's that i need to focus on here. timely is an understatement, and i so appreciate you taking the time to read my long rants and then pointing this all out for me in ways that i can really grasp.
as for how i am? thanks for asking. i think i'm doing pretty well. there is a change inside me, that i can feel things have shifted and that i am finally really truly beginning to detach. i'm also seeing that it's not an overnight thing and i watch myself struggle at times - but the struggle is different now - not sure i can articulate it clearly - more that i know what it's about and i can go through it, but it's extremely clear to me that there's light at the other end of it, and it's not a permanent thing.
i'm letting go of stuff piece by piece - just focusing on what brings up the heavy emotions, then seeing it for what it is and telling myself that it's okay, i can let this go.
i'm seeing the other possibilities much more now - not fully, but enough that it reassures me that i'm okay where i am.
i was just reading that thread about the VETERANS, and i KNOW that a few weeks ago or even days ago i would have shied away from the possibility of life being amazing after a possible divorce, but tonight, i was reading and thinking - yes i need to read this, it's okay to know this, i know this is true - and it didn't make me quake like crazy.
you know, if h did file for D, i now KNOW i'll be alright. i'd be very sad but i have the feeling that if it does happen one day, by the time it goes through, i'll be really good. hell, i am already pretty good, so that's a given
i loved LITB's post about the castle and the picnic - i'm really keeping that image in my mind. in fact i've said that to myself - you're on your own quiet private picnic that's very peaceful and beautiful..
thanks KD:)
zig
GAL'ing
played frisbee today with s and his friends and their parents. just swung by their house and s ran up to the door and asked if they wanted to join us - their parents came out too and we had a blast.
they invited us back in and the 3 of us hung out while the kids played. it was great fun. we landed up talking about h and my separation - and talked about staying still during this time. she told me about her friend who'd had an affair, then the spouse walked away and she got pissed and filed for D and he got married pretty soon after that. she said to me that it was wise to stand still. we talked a bit about it being mlc..
i wasn't really sure if i should have talked to them about it. i did say how i was using this time to take care of myself and improve myself, and how i saw my role in the relationship. and how i hoped that one day h would realize that it may be worth it to really give it a shot before ending it completely. so it was sort of a weird conversation, but none of us were uncomfortable in it
friday night s and i went for an impromptu potluck over to another of his friends houses. that was a really sweet evening and we had a lot of fun. his mom's friend was freaking (good) when we got there - she and i are becoming friends just lately - she had just got off the phone with her h who was in france buying a house for them - and she turned to me at one point and said - you and s can come with us. there is plenty of room, it's a 9 room schoolhouse!
i thought she was joking - but she was serious. i thought to myself, wow - this person that i really really like, she likes me enough to invite me there with them. and suddenly the whole world opened up for me in a different way. that i COULD go there if i chose. that there WERE other people that appreciated and wanted to be with me. and most of all - that i could determine my own life and where i went and what i chose to do.
the lesson i got from it though was slightly different. as i daydreamed about it, i realized that i didn't need to go all the way to france - that i could create my own france right here, right now - that it was how i felt and what i did, exactly where i am that i could change - not changing the place and the people. and that "the idea of france" would come to me when i was ready for it.
so bloom where i'm planted. a friend said that to me years ago - and i never got it. it's taken this incredibly painful, incredibly amazing situation to show me what that really means, and what i have to do to effect that.
zig
and suddenly the whole world opened up for me in a different way. that i COULD go there if i chose. that there WERE other people that appreciated and wanted to be with me. and most of all - that i could determine my own life and where i went and what i chose to do.
the lesson i got from it though was slightly different. as i daydreamed about it, i realized that i didn't need to go all the way to france - that i could create my own france right here, right now - that it was how i felt and what i did, exactly where i am that i could change - not changing the place and the people. and that "the idea of france" would come to me when i was ready for it.
so bloom where i'm planted. a friend said that to me years ago - and i never got it. it's taken this incredibly painful, incredibly amazing situation to show me what that really means, and what i have to do to effect that.
zig
^^this is lovely and worth reading and re-reading. though i would take them up on at least a VISIT to france
for sure verab - i love to travel - and can definitely envision me and s taking off there for a summer. who knows where i'll land up.
it's really strange how things happen. and now when i am "relaxing into the situation" not so overcome and needy - i'm starting to see and hear things that are really helping me change my perspective - towards myself, the relationship, h, life.
this conversation was not isolated - something odd happened the week before. i was all emotional talking to my best friends h, and he told me that my h and he had had a conversation months ago, where my h had told him that if zig ever moved to some other place - he would drop his job and life and move there too in order to be close to s.
i was absolutely stunned!! really stunned. and that's when i realized how warped and defensive i am towards h. all these years, i felt a bit stuck here with him - slightly trapped - that it was somehow my duty in some way to stay here for h, his family. i didn't have the self-confidence to understand that there could be other options.
and then suddenly this info - it changed so much how i see h now - that he really does consider that i might want things differently. i was so sure that if i tried to move ,i would be fighting him tooth and nail over s - to the point where i didn't dare even think about it.
then this invitation - and i think that's when i realized that if i feel the freedom within myself - then it doesn't matter where i am. when that "threat" of possibly fighting over s and where he would live, was removed, i didn't feel so trapped here.
just goes to show how 1) we can really assume stuff, and how little i know h because of how much i may have been projecting my own stuff on him and 2} how little i knew myself and how unconfident i was
and all of this during the first stages of really detaching and letting go.
interesting how these things go together, huh?
hope you're well today
zig
1) we can really assume stuff, and how little i know h because of how much i may have been projecting my own stuff on him and 2} how little i knew myself and how unconfident i was
I think this sabotages so many R.
Our preconceived notions.
I am glad you got value out of my post. You are doing well, zig. No matter what happens with the M, you will have a great future for yourself.
so he might think of an idea and put it out there, but expect that you will take charge / control and do it... or if not, then he would do it and would be chastised for the WAY he did it... not up to your expectations... he doesn't trust that you actually will entrust him to something...
I would say this is pretty universal.
People have a tendency to do things that serve them.
So when you take charge, he doesn't have to. And yes, I completely understand how you get excited about something and just run with it. I'm like that, too.
Unfortunately, sometimes that is seen by others as controlling. And in some ways, it is. It's very passive, but what happens is we take on ownership of someone else' idea.
Figure out a way to trigger yourself around this and learn to only become involved IF asked. And ONLY DO what is asked of you.
Perhaps it would help to think about it from your perspective.
When you get an idea that excites you, you run with it and tell others about it. How would you feel if someone suddenly stepped in and got it all done for you?
Sure, you might feel happy that it is done, but we often get our greatest pleasure from the journey.
You can not support someone in their own greatness if you do things for them.
Your H will do something if it serves him. Let him learn the difference between saying something just to say it vs. doing something to serve his own needs or desires vs. saying something as a way to have someone rescue him.
ie.
H - "That drip in the bathroom sink is annoying."
Z - "I'll call the plumber and get it fixed."
versus
H - "That drip in the bathroom sink is annoying."
Z - "I understand how you could feel that way."
If it's really annoying for your H, he will solve the problem because it serves him. Otherwise, he might lean on his old patterns of getting someone to rescue him, even if he doesn't outright ask.
He'll have choices on his thought. Either talk about it just because he does that or take charge and fix the problem, either by doing it himself, making a call to a plumber, or asking and entrusting you to get it done.
Just be careful not to own the problem. As soon as you own the problem, you've taken on his meaning as your own and you will then get into expectation mode and then become upset when he DOES NOT do something about it.
See how that works? Kinda like the double bind.
Thanks for pointing this out, KD.
np, bug.
Notice, all he did was mention the drip and a feeling in the same sentence.
We might assume it is a problem because of the meaning we place on the word annoying.
I could say the bird chirping outside my window is annoying. It is, early in the morning on a weekend when I can sleep in. But I love hearing the chirp of birds. If I mention it, it's not because it's a problem. If it's a problem, it's only a problem within a specific context...
But the only meaning is mine and it may or may not change and it may or may not be a problem and I may or may not do something about it.
It's all about context. And that context is only relevant to me. And I will do or not do, as it serves me, about it.
i'm having a shaky moment here - and working hard to get past it. this is where the challenge comes in for me.
just found out (and i had assumed otherwise) that ow has possibly been here since last weekend. i thought she was coming in for this weekend since he asked that s stay this weekend, but found out from our mutual friend that she saw ow last weekend.
i think i'm stunned - that he managed to hide it so well for so many days. he's seen us several times - taken s for a few hrs here and there. now i understand why he balked at going to play frisbee last weekend - i thought it was because i pressured him -it was because she was here
oh well - i called my sweet friend and had a good cry, and talked myself down from it to a better place.
i keep feeling really strongly that he can't give her up until he sees something here with us that convinces him that it's worth another path for him. and so i'm still standing, remembering the recipe and telling myself, that heck, if she lived in town, he'd be with her everyday.
i'm also trying to see the positive actions from h - i have the gift from him that he is not involving s in his relationship with ow - and i respect him so much for not doing that. i am seeing that as a gift in this situation - that he is respecting both s and me so much that he's keeping it separate.
but gosh, i need a hug!!
KD - i'll respond to your post later - thank you.
i need to get on track here and continue my day as planned - to focus on s and finish our project no matter what else is going on.
i need to stop letting h's actions make me fall apart so that the rest of my day is f'd. i will not let what he is doing control my emotions to that degree. they have until now, but no more.
i'm determined to just finish my cry, and get on with stuff - and really enjoy it. i had a moment of reaction to what happened and now i will be over it.
zig
big ((( )))
i am so sorry zig.
i tell myself that the more time my W spends w/ OW, the quicker she will see become disillusioned...
and have an opportunity to realize (or not) that her happiness can only come from within herself.
Not sure how DB that is, but it works for me.
thanks need grace for the hug.
and i tell myself that too - who knows. just better to get on with our own stuff, right?
Sorry zig, hope you were able to get on with your day in a positive way.
Kaffe loved that info....I'm saving that and remembering it because it's something I do...anticipate H's needs/wants and take pleasure in fixing it.
Zig, I'm so sorry you had that happen. I know exactly how you feel and it svcks. You feel tricked somehow and just knowing that you don't know hurts.
thanks labug. i'm okay now -
friend came over (the wife of the guy who's h's closest friend right now, who reconnected with me a few weeks ago)
seems she's determined to hangout with me. i spoke to her about how if she felt that it was too uncomfortable then she needs to let me know and i'm ok with it.
after she and her daughter left here, they were going to meet her h and were invited over to see my h's new house. i think ow is still there...
the odd thing is that she really took the time today to shudder and tell me that ow was a piece of work. so far as to say something pretty derogatory as "she looks like she's been used up and hung out to dry, even though she is really young" she's cute but extremely short and worn out - as if she used too many drugs or slept around too much. i asked if her h had said that and she said yes.
now why did i need to know that ?- it's not as if i asked!!! friend offered to take a pic of ow and i said no way, i do NOT want an image of her in my head on top of everything else.
besides, i really don't care in a way - if h wants to do this, i can make it on my own. sure it hurts, but other things hurt too and eventually you work through the hurt and let it go.
this time is for me - and i think todays gentle kick in the backside was to remind me of that precisely - i can agonize over this, or i can start to see more clearly where i'm at and what i need to do. and what i need to do,is just keep putting gone step ahead of the other and move towards being who i am and what i'm about. for now, i'm just leaving him in the dust. if he feels like he can stand up, dust himself off and move forward
so yes labug - i'm feeling pretty positive here, because finally i am beginning to really trust and have faith - that no matter which way this goes, i DO trust that it all be just fine
hope you're doing well.
luckily it hasn't rained yet, so hopefully we get to play some more frisbee this evening after dinner
zig
sorry missed your post earlier, brit.
i don't know if i felt tricked as much as woken up. i think part of me was still "day dreaming" that it wasn't as serious as i thought it was. though of course i don't know how serious or not serious it is - i don't know anything - and i needed to become more aware of that: i don't know anything, and it's okay not to know or know. the significant thing is what am i going to do with myself and how am i going to move forward.
it's odd you know - for the last couple of weeks h's horoscope kept saying "how much of something should you tell someone else - how much should you keep to yourself" i puzzled a bit over it, and figured it was probably a short trip - never occurred to me that she would be here for over a week.
oh well. my horoscope this morning said that the universe was going to give me a gentle kick in the a$$ to wake me up. figured it woke me up good - not in a harsh way but rather gently.
i know this sounds strange but i'm looking in my eyes and at my face in the mirror today - there's a new softness there that i have never seen before and much more sweetness. i've seen that relaxed lovely look on others - and i think it's part of the agape state - it's okay , i find myself thinking - everything is as it should be....
i don't know if i felt tricked as much as woken up. i think part of me was still "day dreaming" that it wasn't as serious as i thought it was. though of course i don't know how serious or not serious it is - i don't know anything - and i needed to become more aware of that:
VERY VERY TRUE! I need to remember that.
Just be careful not to own the problem. As soon as you own the problem, you've taken on his meaning as your own and you will then get into expectation mode and then become upset when he DOES NOT do something about it.
yes i see how that works KD
Your H will do something if it serves him. Let him learn the difference between saying something just to say it vs. doing something to serve his own needs or desires vs. saying something as a way to have someone rescue him.
so here's my current dilemma - and i am struggling between what is "expected" of me and what i can expect from h in terms of "not expecting anything"
i want to bring this up right now, because i think it's a boundary issue and i simply don't know how to handle it. i understand now, the concept of no expectations in terms of how i view h , and i feel that i'm there but things get really muddled and murky when it comes up in the context of co-parenting.ihave been making an effort to "go with the flow" in terms of parenting - waiting for him to bring up stuff, as i have found that me bringing it up first is too confrontational and pressuring for him.
but the issue i'm having now, is where in all this do my needs and boundaries lie in this situation. i got 2x4'd a few weeks ago for bringing up my needs in the situation, so now i am confused about how to handle the current situation.
i'll try to be brief about it.
basically, i have always told h that i will fully support him by taking care of s while he works. he stated clearly that he would split his paycheck with me, and it seems only fair, that while he's at work and s is not in school that i take care of s, even when it's h's turn to have him.
now as things have started to change, and i am trying to get back into working and establishing my own financial independence (and i am very far from that right now - my own issues that i have to work on), i'm in the position where i am still financially dependent on him, but taking care of s all day while he works, doesn't allow me to work myself - talk about a double bind!
the current situation: h has not let me know whether he has started teaching summer school (8.30 to 3 pm) today or not. last thursday he still didn't know whether the course was happening or not due to inadequate enrollment.
all of last week he was "unable " to converse with me about any of this in a manner where anything whatsoever got resolved. i realize now that it was due to the presence of ow here with him. it seems as if he is "frozen" somehow when he's with her and absolutely cannot deal with anything from "this" life at those times.
in the beginning of last week he asked if s could stay through this weekend - the only time he's asked to change the week to week schedule is when he's seen ow - other times, he's told me what he was doing. i didn't question why but just replied sure no problem.
then last thursday i asked - when will you be getting s? sunday or monday? he got all funny and then very reluctantly said - well, actually not until tuesday night. i was very taken aback - that's 4 days extra, with no indication beforehand and not saying a word to s about it or to me. i replied well, i had some plans but i guess i will have to change them
he got a bit aggressive and said quite strongly - what plans. i didn't reply, just said it's okay i'll readjust my schedule. then i asked him what he was going to do with s when he started teaching today. he looked shocked - as if he hadn't thought of it at all - and just said very strangely - i don't know, i haven't thought about it.
don't know if it's just me here, being sensitive, but i'm a little amazed that he hasn't bothered to even check with me that it's okay for me to take care of s all day for the entire month of june. it was different during the school year because it was just a couple of hours in the afternoon.
am i being taken for granted here, and should i set a boundary. can i not expect that even though i should have NO expectations, that we could at least clearly discuss what is taking place, whether or not ow is in the vicinity.
can i push him on this issue right now - or wait until she leaves today or tomorrow or whenever.
this is the first time in the sitch that he has changed the "rules" of how we were doing things. until now, things have been very clear from week to week, in advance. but suddenly now, it's as if he's not going to bother.
know it's already done, but should i have insisted that last minute changes were not okay with me and set the boundary last week? i was trying to just let whatever happens happen and not fight anything.
i can't help feeling that inadvertently i gave him the opportunity to see how "easy it is" to have ow here and i'll take care of stuff in terms of s. granted i didn't even know she was here.
this situation really [censored] - i think the issue for me is realizing that i don't even know for myself what the boundaries really are, that in NOT having any expectations, i still don't understand how to "co-parent " in this situation and still be able to have healthy boundaries with him for myself.
i really need feedback on this - i feel that we've reached some sort of crucial turning point here. i just realized yesterday that ow has been here for 10 days - that's a long time. i need to figure out what i am doing or not doing that will allow him the ease of settling into having it all - her being around and me picking up the slack with s?
do i, at the expense of s, insist that he just take care of s, during the week he's with him, and i'll take care of my own responsibilities with s when he's with me? i'm sure he'll throw the financial thing at me then.
i should also point out that summer has always been a huge financially stressful time for us because he's a professor and there's not paycheck for 3 months. he's trying to teach this summer course to make some money so we can live.
yes i know, i'm going to get 2 x 4'd here for why haven't I in 10 months gotten myself together enough to cover my own expense? well - i haven't, and am only realizing now, how "helpless" i have been acting, and need to step up and get my [censored] together on this issue. i have too many "excuses' about why it hasn't happened, i'm ashamed to say.
so i guess when it comes down to it - my questioning my position on this issue, is not about whether i take care of s or not - i think i should, if i'm still financially dependent on him. the issue is how can i make it clear that he doesn't get to just decide whatever whenever schedule wise without any discussion whatsoever.
wow that was quite a mouthful there - sorry it's so long.
thanks for any advice or 2x4's in advance. i feel i'm due the latter big time here!!
zig
i guess i want to make clear, that this 'issue" hasn't just come up because i found out about ow being here and it's my reaction to it.
i was already very perturbed last thursday about the way he changed things, and at the time decided to wait and deal with it at the appropriate time.
now i'm trying to figure out how to deal with it.
just had a conversation with a friend who helped me see that i don't need to push the boat here.
i'm still reacting, sadly - not as "detached " as i thought i was.
it's a simple concept of "h , i need things to be clear in terms of how and when each of us are taking care of s each week, as i would like to be able to arrange my schedule in advance and know what to expect"
she pointed out to me, that i need to show my own strength and self respect, by making it clear what is okay for me.
she also helped me to see that replying "i guess i'll have to change my plans" as a response was passive aggressive and controlling. that it would have been more appropriate for me to say - especially if i was side balled by the suddenness of it - "let me think about it, i'll get back to you on this issue"
then have time to think what was appropriate for me and do-able. she suggested that i could have said - "i already have plans for monday, but i can keep s monday night and tuesday - you'll have to arrange otherwise for s during the day on monday"
i can see where i put myself in this messed up situation more clearly.
another thing that i did, and which i don't know how to rectify, or whether i should is that last year in november i told h that i didn't want to carry his secret any longer about his affair, and that he needed to arrange his meetings with ow so that i didn't need to know about it.
at the time i though i was protecting myself - what i didn't know didn't need to affect me so much, and then it didn't affect s and the rest of the family.
well, now i feel that it's sort of back-firing on me. the universe seems to have a very strong need to make sure that i know , that i find out, each and every time!!
the problem though is that h is now stuck in a position where he can't tell me because i demanded that, and so situations like this come up, which land up leaving me probably more upset - because he has to maneuver and manipulate them hiding it from me.
am i keeping us in a double bind because of that? if i am, how do i rectify it?
because this is long-distance A and we share s, it's just about impossible for him to take off without it being obvious that he's going to see her - especially since he needs to ask me to keep s. and now of course also when he's here and she comes here - like this last week.
i want to tell him that i don't need that boundary anymore, and if he needs to give me that kind of info, it's okay.
that requires talking about ow and her presence in his life.and i don't care to have a conversation about her, really.besides there the issue of DB'ing and bringing up OP? not sure what to do here.
and if we do have that conversation - what stand do i take - "i accept that you are with OP and am happy for you" or "I am not happy that you are with OP and i have to take care of s while you spend time with her" or "I am not happy that you are with OP but will happily keep s while you are with her" or " "I accept that you are with OP and am happy to keep s while you are with her, i just want things to be clearly stated so that i can make my own plans" (WOW, do i sound like a total nut here?)
on the other hand - is there no other way for him to conduct this affair so that he can keep it out of my life? do i NEED to have this information? i don't want it - am i being unrealistic here in terms of how i'm viewing and dealing with this situation?
i feel like i need a 2 x 4 for every aspect of how i'm dealing with this.
this problem has been there for months and i have just shoved it under the mat, not knowing how to deal with it, and i see my pattern here - the same as during the marriage - i shoved things away in spite of being fully aware that things were pretty bad between us, but because i didn't know how to i told myself i'll deal with it later. now i've done the same with this sitch regarding where s is when he's with ow - knowing i should do something about it but too scared and apprehensive to make any concrete moves, because i simply don't know which are the right ones to make.
is staying still just letting things be, letting him leave s with me even though i know what's going on? that's what i have done, and been happy to do it FOR SON, but i can't help thinking of some of starsky's posts which encourage people here to NOT allow the WAS to get too complacent and comfortable in their situation.
then on the other hand there are the mlc'er vets who say to just let things be, no pressure etc and let them play out while working on yourself and moving forward.
Add s into the mix: if i shrug and say - it's your turn this week, you'll have to keep him, i run the risk of him getting pissed and just bringing ow into s's life when it may not happen if i just let him decide about how things are.
i don't even know what i'm saying anymore - all i know is that this is coming up for me because i am still feeling helpless, manipulated and not all that detached, and how much i need to work on myself in finding my own true place in this.
i started reading LITB's thread from the beginning last night - his stance was so clear and decisive from the start - i lack that terribly - and am finding out only now after all these months, how many issues i have in terms of self esteem, helplessness and knowing what my true feelings are. and that is why it is so hard for me to see clearly where i stand and what it means to be me and function as me. (was on the live strong site for 2 hrs this morning)
i really hope that people will jump in and give me some feedback no matter how hard it is for me to hear. i know my posts are terribly tediously long, and i really apologize for that.
i'm not doing what;s working - i need to figure out what works for me in this and i need outside perspective. i feel as if i'm the one in the fog and can't see.
thanks
zig
Ah zig, take a few breaths here. You don't need a 2x4 for EVERY aspect!
Your friend is wise and spot-on with her assessment of the situation (does she know about DB??). I concur with what she suggested.
I think part of "rectifying" the situation about having H not tell you about his OW plans is to act as if you don't care about what he's doing. You admit yourself that you are not really detached in respect to that. That is a good place to focus to start.
Add s into the mix: if i shrug and say - it's your turn this week, you'll have to keep him, i run the risk of him getting pissed and just bringing ow into s's life when it may not happen if i just let him decide about how things are.
This is kind of exactly what you need to say - it's not your place to fix his scheduling issues especially when he is trying to change a schedule that you already had in place. You can try to set boundaries wherein you say that it is not acceptable for H to introduce S to OW right now b/c it will be harmful to him. However, you cannot control what H does or be concerned with his reactions - this is at the heart of detaching.
((zig))
I can really identify with being paralyzed because of being completely unsure what the right thing to do is. I have also wished that I had a clear straightforward philosophy about how I was going to react so that I could act decisively and with few regrets.
But it's all so messy. You can't actually follow all the advice you get. Even simple straight-forward things like LRT take a little finesse. Consider ces who did a fine job with LRT for so long, but really started to make improvements when he opened up lines of communication.
I have agonized over decisions and let the anxiety eat me up inside, but it is probably better to just make some decision and go with it. You can't know what the right best thing to mend your marriage is, but it's probably a lot easier to figure out how to best treat yourself with respect.
You're probably right that it is not time to introduce OW into S's life. You should explicitly set that boundary.
I think by being flexible with your schedule, you are enabling H's affair, and that is not something you should be putting yourself through. Maybe you can set a schedule and make it clear that sticking to the schedule is best for S, and that H needs to respect your time and schedule.
I think you can handle the affair with grace without aiding and abetting it. It's not OK. I don't think there is any reason to legitimize it. He should feel guilty and sheepish about it every time.
Oh, also, I meant to add that it sounds like you're dealing with a lot of anxiety and scattered thinking.
Mindfulness can be really helpful with this. I can especially recommend "Mindfulness: An Eight-Week Plan for Finding Peace in a Frantic World" by Mark Williams.
http://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-Eight-Week-Finding-Peace-Frantic/dp/1609611985
AT makes a good reference that while DB is what we follow, all DB can be open to interpretation based on our unique sitches.
So while you may be or are going to go LRT, you can modify it to some degree, just as you modify dark to "dim" in consideration of your S.
OK, not sure what your friend suggested, I'm short on time and going back into semi retirement again...
But here's my take on this:
Do nothing BECAUSE OF the OW. Good notice that you are reacting to your H's being with her. When making any choices, make sure that they do not (for the most part, I'll note this later) have anything to do with OW.
In regards to taking duties / time with your S while your H is working, that is great. But in the "normal world" you would need to make arrangements for your S when you are working. Job hunting is just like working.
Now here's the part about when to consider OW in the equation. At this time, my opinion is that your S should have as limited contact with OW as possible. Unless your H and OW have set a wedding date, his R with her could just as easily be short term and otherwise confusing for your S.
So having S while H is with OW... well, that's kinda a no brainer IMHO...
(using the non-but that I think we are using around here now) having said that...
If the alternative to you staying at home is that S is with H and possibly OW... then consider that your schedule with S would mean that you would get child care / baby sitters for your S.
So is this a boundary issue?
Yes, it can be. The boundary being that you have to find work and also that you do not want S around OW unless your H is planning on M her.
So my thought would be, tell H that you are actively seeking employment and as such will need temporary daycare for S during times when you need to go for interviews or other things you cannot take S with you. Have some options at the ready. You will be looking to have H pay AT LEAST half. Possibly the full amount as you are still financially dependent on him.
WHEN you have that convo with him, please remember the 48 hour rule.
There is a possibility that he will be upset... or have a million questions... or suggest he take S even if he will be with OW...
IF and what ever he might say, say nothing other than "I need to think on that, I will let you know in a day or two" and then post here and we will support you to work on your new position.
Good luck...
{{{zig}}}
verab - thanks for your brilliant post.
and the hug, and for being so sweet and saying that i don't need a 2 x 4 for everything i'm doing. when the "evidence' is bad, i think i go into the "blame myself for everything coaster ride" and can't see the forest for the trees!!
got to get myself out of that one!!
I think part of "rectifying" the situation about having H not tell you about his OW plans is to act as if you don't care about what he's doing.
yes! you're correct. my insisting he not tell me, is giving him the very strong message that i care too much.
i have been too scared to say certain things to h. and now, i can see that i have always been that way. and ironically he is too scared to say certain things to me. we both do that because we are worried about the other person's reaction.
here's a 180 for me - i have finally got to the point where i can see that i avoid stuff with h because i'm scared of his reaction. and now, when i'm not any longer threatened by the idea of divorce, i am at the point where saying certain things seem suddenly so simple and easy. he's not 'holding " something over me any longer (e.g.. his anger, his threats of divorce etc)
thanks for your advice verab:)
zig
thanks always trying
sorry i didn't reply earlier - in the middle of all of this i went to have a tooth pulled and the rest of the day was spent in "recovery"
it was really soothing for me to read your description about how messy all of this is. and your suggestion of just making a design and going with it and just letting go of the anxiety of what it's effect may be, is exactly what i want to aim for.
I think by being flexible with your schedule, you are enabling H's affair, and that is not something you should be putting yourself through
i think the reason i got so upset last weekend was because that's how i felt - that inadvertently i had managed to not only enable what he was doing, but bloody volunteered for it. i was mad at him, but waaay more mad at myself. i am being too nice and it does NOT work for me.
i am going to make it clear for him now - we need to make a schedule and stick to it. and if things come up as they sometimes do, i am going to start requiring that he figure out his role in dealing with it and not dump s on me. i have even saying that because i WANT s all the time, but not in this way.
I think you can handle the affair with grace without aiding and abetting it. It's not OK. I don't think there is any reason to legitimize it. He should feel guilty and sheepish about it every time.
oh i hope i can - handle it with grace and dignity.
i know he is going to push me hard during this discussion - how openly should i talk about it - i've stayed away from any discussion about her for months now - and need to make clear for myself exactly what stand i need to take on this before tackling it.
i think i'll write down and post later how i am join got put it and hope i get feedback from all of you as to what is the best way to say it.
thanks always - and thanks for the link - yes i was very scattered and all over the place for the last 2 days and venting a lot. i did meditate and do my self-hypno and feel grounded again this morning.
hope you're good today:)
zig
thanks so much KD - and sorry to hear about your semi-retirement - i'm assuming it has to do with how much time you spend on the board?
just to clarify - i am working : at home. i have a small business that i'm trying to get off the ground here - and being a bit slow about it.
since i work at home - it IS easy for me to have s here - all day everyday. it is admittedly a bit distracting, and i'm working on staying focused when he's here.
so the issue of me going out to get a job and babysitter etc doesn't really apply. it's more about how flexible i should be and to what extent, without being taken for granted here.
all you wrote about making boundaries with h about contact between ow and s is really good advice.
i wonder though if you would suggest another course in light of what has come out since you wrote your post. i'd be interested to know if you would still suggest the same.
to start with, i am wondering who is DB'in there - me or h!! sometimes i swear he's doing a better job of it than i am.
anyway -h did call last night - i knew he would after ow left. he just can't seem to have contact with us while he's with her.
i decided to go ahead and discuss the issue of schedule right away - but kept it very light and casual. just said h i was a bit unsettled about how things went last week with the schedule being suddenly changed. you and i have done such a great job of communicating on this and keeping things clear all these months, that i am puzzled as to why it suddenly changed.
he asked me what i meant, so i had to describe it to him.
and then i got the real answer that i needed to hear:
the schedule mess only happened because s didn't go on that wedding trip with h's parents. that he had planned ow's visit to coincide with s being out of town. which he said to me in a slightly whiny complaining voice. so i guess he was trying to make an effort to "do things right"
i also found out later in the evening - that mil and fil were fully aware that she was here - because he specifically went over and told them so that they would avoid coming over to the house or dropping by and see her, as he did not want them to meet.
so what is clear to me is that h is AT LEAST PRESENTLY making huge efforts to NOT let ow be a part of our lives. for him to actually go tell his parents that she's here and not to come over? wtf?
(on the other hand, i was informed through a friend, that he openly hung out with ow and his friends - in fact invited them over to his new house to see it - it's a complete dump, apparently should be torn down rather than renovated - and they couldn't even go in because the renter won't move out ! apparently they hung out in the yard for a bit!)
so all of it part of the insane behavior, right?
but my question of course is: is it wise to bring up and make very sensitive boundaries when he himself seems to be making the same one?
would it be preferable to just start with the one about the schedule and making things clear, and IF that comes up, then discuss it? my instinct is telling me that if i did say that s and ow shouldn't meet yet, that will be the very reason it will happen.
i will write another post in a bit, to journal what happened this morning
thanks for your time KD - you all have been such a godsend to me - i will never be able to repay the debt i owe to a ll of you here as well as all the amazing people that i am surrounded with in my life. the universe has definitely got my back and it's taken this sitch to help me realize that
zig
journaling
h told me last night that s wanted to go unto the studio with him at the uni and bee there everyday with him while he taught summer school. so found out at 8.30 last night that h was going to pick him up at 8.15 this morning and then keep him for his turn.
i was kind of out of it on painkillers, and didn't really care to press the issue. besides , it was to my advantage, as then i could get to work.
this morning though - not on painkillers, i decided that since our original agreement was that he was taking s in the evening, i told s that he will be coming back for a few hours in the afternoon, so we could finish his room that we'd been rearranging and isn't get done. s got really teary-eyed and upset and said he didn't want to do that, so i had to let it go.
i know i'm a softie - but i'm just join got let it pass on this one. we've totally disregarded the feel ins of this child in the last few days. didn't tell him anything, and made him wait and guess on his own. it sucked for him and on top of it, he had to deal with the far that his dad totally blew him off for a week, while he was in town!
during breakfast s and i had to go through a difficult conversation, that we managed to resolve and then i went out on the back deck, ready to have a little weep, but h came in.
they came out on the deck and h was carrying s and so i didn't see his face for the first minute. and then i got the shock and surprise of my life!!
THE CRAZY ASS THING OF A MOUSTACHE IS GONE!!
he shaved it off. that's been his red sports car, his wall between him and the world, and i saw his face again.
i think i handled it beautifully and casually. made him feel relaxed - he was very over conscious of it and could at first barely look at me - but his whole demeanor was very relaxed and the old h - he talked in a very warm way - lots of eye contact. and stayed for a bit. at the end he said he'd like to sit together this afternoon and make a schedule for the summer with s's activities and write it all down. he has never ever suggested that - in far the always hated doing that kind of stuff.
of course, it could be he wants things to be crystal clear so he can arrange his trips with ow without it being messy like this past week.
talk about splitting and roller coaster!!
THIS TIME i am prepared - no expectations from him. there's as much possibility of that actually happening as not happening and i'm okay with it.
i am going to practice here later what i would like to say to him regarding how we schedule and keep to the schedule.
i need to go get some work done first
thanks everyone for all the support and holding my hand through this
zig
hey zig I will say that when I have been blindsided by things happening between H and his GF he has said that he tries to sheild me from it. So that's probably why he was being whiny what they don't understand is if they acted like an adult we could act like adults and just have a discussion.
Practice here and maybe sending an email would be easier.
at the end he said he'd like to sit together this afternoon and make a schedule for the summer with s's activities and write it all down. he has never ever suggested that - in far the always hated doing that kind of stuff.
of course, it could be he wants things to be crystal clear so he can arrange his trips with ow without it being messy like this past week.
Ahh! You took a positive that you could have just taken as a surface positive and left it at that and instead tried to mindread in negative intent. 2x4!!
What's the most important thing here? How about first focusing on giving S an awesome summer schedule? Then focus on how you're going to have an awesome summer? And worrying about H and OW is NOT on that list!
Forgot to mention -
H is probably worried about how you will react to talking about OW (it comes out with what you described above). If you act like you don't care, eventually he'll get more comfortable (as it looks like he could be doing). Then his thoughts are less concerned with how to hide it from you out of fear for how you might react and more about what he is actually doing with his life.
My H used to do this with me (have preconceived notions about how I would react regardless of whether it was true) when we were first dating. In fact I think it was our first "fight." He went to vegas for spring break. I called him one night and he said he was at a "loud bar." His friend later revealed that they were at a strip club. A seemingly key fact to leave out! He did it because he was afraid of how I would react instead of just saying it and letting me react to it. That's not healthy.
So long story short - if you act like it doesn't bother you, H will notice because a) it's different from how you reacted in the past and b) he'll realize he can be more open with you and c) he can face whatever emotions he has to deal with as consequences of his actions. Does that make sense?
^^^^^^^ like!
both of Vera's posts are spot on!
Ahh! You took a positive that you could have just taken as a surface positive and left it at that and instead tried to mindread in negative intent. 2x4!!
i'm laughing here. AFTER i finished the post and was reading it through i added that . SPECIFICALLY to stop myself from having expectations!!
those poor pathetic expectations that at the least, even if he's thrown our marriage in the air , he i could expect that he wants us to co-operate about s's life.
he keeps giving me the message that he does, but in reality it falls far short. so that was a knock to my own head to wake up and realize that there may be ulterior motives on his part, and not to expect that he's doing it for the reasons I MYSELF may expect him to do it for,
does that make sense?
i am seriously not worrying about him and ow doing or not doing whatever. i am only worrying a bit that i can't have things clear about what we are doing with s this summer. that's all i'm concerned about,!!
i've already been acting like it's not bothering me. in december when he planned to take off for 12 days after x'mas, i let him know that i had found out and HAD KNOWN for 2 whole months - incidentally during that time, i behaved impeccably (and he knew it - i had been friendly and co-operative etc during that whole time. the old me would have undoubtedly bitched and been pissed off in various ways)
he asked me if i was angry and i shrugged quite casually and said - no, this is not any more bigger or more important that the whole picture.
what you described in your r with your h - it's exactly the same here - and we have talked about it several times. he's not able to let go of that image of me - no matter how different my reactions are now.
i have not once got angry since this S about anything difficult he has told me - and there's been plenty - and he still insists that that's why he doesn't tell me. well - time + changes , you know?
it's taking him a long time to understand this. but i don't take it personally any more. if he chooses to function that way and make things more messy, his problem. i don't feel as if i need to own that in anyway any longer.
So long story short - if you act like it doesn't bother you, H will notice because a) it's different from how you reacted in the past and b) he'll realize he can be more open with you and c) he can face whatever emotions he has to deal with as consequences of his actions. Does that make sense?
yes that makes a lot of sense. i'm not 100% confident i can carry it off, but i have become quite the actress through all of this.
i like your approach to it, and yes it will make life a lot easier. i think in the past few months i haven't been able to attempt that because i thought- if i give him the impression i don't care, then he'll think i don't want to go on with the R.
but it's the opposite of that isn't it.
i have told him many many times when he used to test me about how i felt - that i am happy for him that he has found what he needs and that he's so happy. (he always insists how happy he is - and he looks so goddamn miserable when he says it!!)he's always looked terribly pained when i've said that. in dec when he told me he was going for 12 days, i actually said with a smile on my face - that's great - you guys get to spend time together - it must be really hard for you being so far apart.
was that overboard - i actually really meant it - and was sincere - heck - if he's gong to do it - he might as well enjoy it instead of being so f'ing agonized over it!!
so is your name Vera? that's my mom's name - i've always thought it was a beautiful name - for beautiful people.
thanks for your thoughts - i shall put them to good use.
zig
i think so too:)
thanks for stopping by , brit
zig
ps.
forgot to mention, that last night while mil and i were "sorting" things out, she told me that when h informed them that ow was going to be here and not to stop by , she asked him whether he had told me. his reply was 'no, zig has asked me not to tell her what's going on and i am going to respect that even though i would prefer to.
okay question - apart from the situation regarding s and keeping him out of it, which h is making clear HE wants to do also, WHY DO I NEED TO KNOW? from his point of view?
is it just the practicalities, or is there possibly something in the WAS's mind where they have some need for their spouse to know what they are doing?
i've puzzled over this for months. is it my own resistance to wanting to know that is more telling, or his need to need me to know that is more telling here?
ugh!
was hoping i'd get some feedback before h stops by this evening.
i think i'll just say that i'm a bit busy and knackered and put it off for a couple of days.
i didn't have to deal with it - he didn't bring it up. instead he wanted a smoke together on the deck and we talked in a surprisingly relaxed manner about s - laughing and joking a bit. the conversation was almost with an intimate tone at times.
he kept giving me these rather "piercing'" looks - sort of intently.
i stayed very sweet and relaxed - which i did feel, and very happy inside myself. i know that i look wonderful these days - and very happy and very confident.
i kept the conversation as brief as possible and got up before he did - which made him realize that they better get going. i had had a disco channel playing on pandora when they came in, and there was an abba song on (whom i absolutely love - heck i'm indian and indians love abba!!!!). and at the door, instead of being all painful as he usually is, he sort of danced a little bit. (which was a bit significant as there's a bit of a story behind that)
very strange!!
i saw them off cheerfully - s was being brave - i could see that but i just let him go off cheerfully with lots of kisses - as many as he could bear that is.
interesting shift - first time after he was with ow that he made contact right away - it usually takes him a few days to be able to "face" me - or at least that's what it felt like. and now, being friendly right away AND the mustache gone?
hmmm
strange times, is all i can say - i'm stable here- not getting affected and facing the reality that tomorrow he could be the opposite and acting the alien.
need to start a new thread. i've had a lot of questions here, and hope they will get answered , but will start a new thread before i get locked in
oh and i worked well today - got my etsy shop opened finally - about time!! need to do a lot of work with that to get it really good - but one step at a time - gonna apply my DB skills to everything - how exciting!!
the best part was talking to my dad this evening - my mom had just told me how he'd had a pretty bad day with his dementia. we had the warmest loveliest conversation, and at one point he said to me zig you sound different , you sound great. and i said yes dad, i feel great. and then he said your voice sounds so confident and happy. and i was so proud to tell him that yes that's exactly how i felt. and it really touched me because he and i are great together but he doesn't really "connect" with anyone more intimately.
so can i have a semi-detachment party now?
heck if i'm doing this well after he's been with ow for 8 or 9 days, i'm on my way to TURTLE LAND!!
i'll explain in my new thread.
zig
Hey zig - just got back in and saw your posts.
i'm not 100% confident i can carry it off, but i have become quite the actress through all of this.
Fake it 'til you make it!
i have told him many many times when he used to test me about how i felt - that i am happy for him that he has found what he needs and that he's so happy. (he always insists how happy he is - and he looks so goddamn miserable when he says it!!)he's always looked terribly pained when i've said that. in dec when he told me he was going for 12 days, i actually said with a smile on my face - that's great - you guys get to spend time together - it must be really hard for you being so far apart.
was that overboard - i actually really meant it - and was sincere - heck - if he's gong to do it - he might as well enjoy it instead of being so f'ing agonized over it!!
Well, personally, this sounds a little overboard
You do sound like you're giving your approval here. It's kind of the the complete opposite of a boundary, in a way. I'm not really sure what the appropriate response would be to that, though!
As for why your H would "prefer" to tell you what's going on - who knows?? It doesn't seem like it's worth the energy to ponder it too much.
And thanks for the note about the name - I'll never tell
but what a coincidence it's your mom's name!
ps - we cross-posted - congrats on your strong detachment day party!