So, I'm glad I hit 100 posts over there because if I could erase my last post I would. I have no idea how I feel most of the time, and most of the time I tell myself it doesn't matter. I have work to do, a life to live, kids to take care of. Put the best face on it and move on. Accuray pushed me a little to identify how happy I really am and I wrote some gibberish that makes no sense.
I guess constitutionally I feel mostly happy almost always, but under the surface is stuff I'm not dealing with. Most of the time I don't see the point because I'm fine. But I take the opportunities with IC to dig and and get to work on it. If nothing else good came of all this, the impetus to see a therapist was a very good thing for me. I can do better than before.
My current thinking on H is that he's on a path he needs to follow. I'm here, being who I am, taking care of things, and hoping he'll wake up one day soon and come back to me. OT popped in with a friendly reminder to focus on me and not so much on what H is doing from one day to the next. Good advice.
For me, I'm going to do some solid work today, stick to my diet, walk on my lunch break, and make "chicken with 40 cloves of garlic" for dinner. It has lemons in it and the garlic roasts in the pan, yummy. And - wash the dishes I hid out on the porch so the housecleaners could do their work yesterday. And - start cleaning the pollen out of the porch so it's a nice place to hang out. And - really pay good attention to my kids this evening, laptop off.
Slow down, I'm trying to catch up!
Your last post on your last thread made perfect sense to me. If I put things in the back seat I can be happy too. Unfortunately post-bomb they have a way of clawing themselves back into the front seat. Maybe the A/D's help with that. I took Lorazepam when things were at their worst, but I didn't feel it helped that much and I was paranoid about the fact that it can be addictive.
So if you are one year in, what happens now? Do you just wait to see what happens, or are you going to confront H about his plans? Was there an official start to the separation where something was filed?
What is your road forward?
Accuray
Chicken with 40 cloves of garlic? Really? That sounds good. How about a cup of white wine in the mix?
My year is coming up too, hard to believe. But we ain't dead and still here moving forward. And you are right we have lots to be thankfull for. We just can't see it right now. Good things are in the works AD just hang in there.
Wow... one-year in house separation... that takes some serious fortitude. I remember what it was like here... how I feared the separation in separate houses, but all in all this has been better than together. It hurts, but it's way less crazy and poisonous.
So god bless you for having the strength to stick it out!
Well, it's 11 months since h said he wanted to separate (6/15/11) and he wanted to sign papers making it official the next day, but nothing has ever been signed. So I expect next month to get interesting, and I figured that would be on this thread, hence the title.
Thank you WHG, I do consider myself to be a very strong person. It was funny that in counseling near the beginning I mentioned that and h said he did not see me that way. To me, it's a large part of my identity! Anyway, it was all about learning that other people have a different reality.
Rick I believe there is white wine involved. Always makes the cooking more fun too!
Just try not to let the "anniversary" throw you.
It's a bit like riding my bike, once a get past that certain point, I could ride forever.
40 cloves of garlic? Will you share the recipe?
40 cloves of garlic? Will you share the recipe?
I love cooking with garlic, but I still can't peel it worth a *&^%! I've only been cooking for real for a couple of months, but even though I almost always use garlic, I'm still fumbling trying to get it out of it's skin.
40 cloves?!?!?! No way! That would take me an hour!
Always lay the garlic clove on a cutting board. With a large knife place the side of it over the garlic and press it. It will crush it making it easy to peel. Don't cut yourself k.
I smack it, but pressing it sounds safer. The heavier the knife, the more satisfying the 'smack.'
It's from Joy of Cooking, super easy, and actually you don't even peel the garlic in this one.
Take 1 3.5-4 lb chicken, throw away the gizzard stuff inside it.
Rub the skin with olive oil and then a mixture of 1 tsp dried thyme, 1 tsp dried sage, 1/2 tsp salt, 1/2 tsp dried rosemary, and 1/2 tsp black pepper. I use the salt and pepper but just barely wave the thyme and rosemary over it bc my family doesn't like herb flavors.
Place into the cavity one lemon cut into quarters.
Put it breast side up in a flameproof casserole, cover, refrigerate for 2 to 24 hours (or not) to infuse with flavor.
Add 3 garlic heads, cloves separated but not peeled
1-3/4 cups chicken stock or broth
1 c dry white wine
Bring o a boil on the stovetop. Cover with a lid or foil and transfer to the center of the oven. Roast at 375 for 25 min, increase the temp to 450 and uncover. Roast 30-45 min more. Add wine or stock as needed to make sure there is always some liquid in the bottom of the casserole.
That's all I do, but the recipe continues. Remove the chicken and garlic from the casserole and keep warm. Skim as much fat as possible from the pan juices with a spoon. If the juices are watery or weak in flavor, boil them down over high heat to concentrate. Transfer the juices to a saucepan. If you wish, peel 6 or more of the garlic cloves and mash to a paste, then stir into the sauce and boil for 1 minute. Remove the sauce from the heat and stir in 2 T minced parsley or finely shredded basil or 2 tsp of minced thyme, tarragon, or rosemary. Season with salt and pepper to taste. Cut the chicken into serving pieces and arrange on a platter. Spoon the pan juices over it and scatter the garlic cloves around it. Bon apetit!
AT.. they also sell those handy little things where you put the clove of garlic.. rub it.. and it peels the garlic for you. my H likes to use it. i just smack it w/ the knife ^^^^ lol
Ad.. i've been meaning to ask you.. when you disagree w/ H's parenting choices.. what do you do? do you talk about it? or do you just suck it in? i've been wondering.. i remember you saying something about H and how he is around the kids sometimes. i don't doubt that my H loves the kids. but it really does seem that he doesn't find joy in just being with them. he has all these good intentions but there's no follow through.. with plans and such. and then he gets worked up over small things. you'd think that a man who only sees his kids about 4 days every 2 weeks would want to make the most of it. and i find myself biting my tongue a lot when i want to say.. why are you getting so upset??
do you ever question yourself there? like.. why am i getting upset w/ H? is it my own need to have him be a certain way? just looking for your take on it.
Hi Barely!
In counseling early on I got hit with a 2x4 a few times about assuming that my way was right and H's was wrong. Even if I can explain it in a way that sounds like mine is obviously right and his is outrageous, T would bring me back around.
First, moms and dads are inherently different and for good reason. So H isn't likely to turn into a nurturing mom. Second, H has his own reality that is just as real to him as mine is to me - the trick is negotiating those differences with respect for each others' point of view. So H not hugging and kissing them like I do isn't necessarily an awful thing always. Third, if I had a concern I could ask questions framed as my concern which is based on my own issues or frame of reference. Recognizing that his experience may be different, what does he think about xyz, can he help me understand where he's coming from. I needed to try to have such a conversation without an investment in the outcome of it, in order to hear and understand him.
And apart from IC, I think there are things h has to learn without me telling him because he resists me imposing my "rightness" on him.
What you can't do is make him see or realize anything or do anything. What you can do is tell him when you have a concern and listen to what he says. What you can and should do is talk to your kids, model what you think is right, and encourage them to express how they feel about things and what they need.
You should stop judging H for what he's doing with the kids. Maybe ask questions. If he asks for your opinion then you could offer suggestions.
I'll give an example. My H stays in bed a lot of the afternoon so the kids expect him to be there now and don't even look for him. If I need to do something outside the home, I know they're basically unsupervised if he's home. I don't like it, I think it's wrong. I don't have good answers for you about it. But I no longer judge, yell, lecture, him. I focus on what needs to happen. I make sure the kids know to go ahead and talk to him even if he's asleep if they need to say or ask something. At some point he may decide he's sleeping their lives away, but I cannot help that process.
All I can say is, focus on what your kids need, REALLY need. Do they REALLY need joyful time with dad or are you projecting your wishes on him?
Wish I could help you more, I'm feeling my way through this too.
OT suggested I return my focus to me and not H's actions, but I tend to be prompted to come here and journal mostly when H does something, so it will appear I'm focusing on his actions. They do serve as mileposts along my journey so I have something to journal about my feelings in context.
I have been thinking more often about identifying and measuring my feelings. I had a sad moment and gave it about a 4 on a scale of 1-10, where I was below neutral but not far below. Just a little blue.
My T often brings up how sad it is that my H isn't willing to give our M a chance. She seems to be trying to prompt a reaction from me. I agree that it's sad. But I don't feel really sad most of the time because I do believe I'm doing what I can.
I'm releasing my anger and resentment, I'm focusing on myself and trying to improve myself. I'm communicating more clearly with him. I'm not pressuring him. I'm waiting. I'm being someone desirable to come back to. I'm taking care of my kids. I'm listening to him more carefully. I'm participating fully in counseling.
If in spite of everything that I can possibly do, he wants a D, then I don't want to cry about that. I want to make the best of it, take the best care of my kids, and turn lemons into lemonade.
Last night he stayed out all night. He had told me he was going to his friends' and then to a cookout at another friend's place. I wasn't terribly surprised to wake around 1am and not find him home. At 8am he came in still dressed up nice, with his mom and brother from the airport. H seemed a little bit nervous - he whipped out a pan and started making eggs, but MIL and BIL didn't stay so he just made one egg and cleaned the pan. I was in the kitchen so after the MIL and BIL left and while H was eating he told me about George's house just being ridiculous. It's huge. He's a single doctor and pretty much doesn't even live in the house, he lives more with his parents. His house is barely furnished or decorated but it huge and in a wealthy area. I just had little to respond to but was friendly, just asked a question or two about the house since H brought it up. H didn't share any other tidbits about the party or his friends. Then he went up to bed.
I notice H is very judgmental about other people, looking for something negative to say. Maybe the house it really nice, or maybe George makes so much money that it's a no-brainer for him to invest it in a big house, whatever. The adjective H came home with was "ridiculous." I feel a little sad that he's not more proud of his friends or happy at their good fortune, but he tends to pick out a criticism more than anything. He did that about me too.
Back to me. I did good detachment, both real in my head and expressed to H. I was friendly, busy, and uninterested in his night out. I'm working this morning on developing a hike itinerary - a friend and I have a weekend blocked off for our first backpacking trip and I thought this is a nice day to start planning. I'm enjoying a cool breeze and a hot cup of coffee on my screened porch with my two lazy dogs draped over the wicker furniture like a Dali painting. It's a gorgeous day out and I have more things I'd like to do than time to do them.
In the next month or so I would like to schedule a sit-down with a financial planner to take a look at the financial aspects of my business, home, and potential separation, retirement savings, etc. These are things I delegated to my H because he likes money stuff and is good at it, but now we'll both have to like and be good at it. I hate duplicating effort, but it looks necessary.
I hope you all are having a nice Sunday.
Hey Ad- I really enjoy reading your posts. You have such a great attitude and perspective. Have a great day!!
My T often brings up how sad it is that my H isn't willing to give our M a chance. She seems to be trying to prompt a reaction from me. I agree that it's sad. But I don't feel really sad most of the time because I do believe I'm doing what I can.
A,
I agree your therapist is probably trying to get some sort of a response...
I have actually been waiting for one as well. I have read through your posts and I see a great amount of acceptance from you.
What I see missing...
Is joy. Is fun. You don't feel sad. I can accept that as your answer. Do you feel happy?
You are filling your roles, wonderfully, I am sure. You are being very careful and deliberate in your actions and words.
I'm releasing my anger and resentment, I'm focusing on myself and trying to improve myself. I'm communicating more clearly with him. I'm not pressuring him. I'm waiting. I'm being someone desirable to come back to. I'm taking care of my kids. I'm listening to him more carefully. I'm participating fully in counseling.
If in spite of everything that I can possibly do, he wants a D, then I don't want to cry about that. I want to make the best of it, take the best care of my kids, and turn lemons into lemonade.
Why wouldn't you cry about this? It is the end of something that is precious to you and you need to release the emotions that must come with that.
I am not saying cry forever...however you can't simply ignore the sadness and hope that it will go away. Emotions have to be processed or they come back and bite us in the butt eventually.
What makes A tick? What makes A happy? What are you doing for A, and A alone?
I know you went to visit friends last weekend. That is wonderful. How did it make you feel? Really make you feel at your core?
Scared, excited, anxious, liberated?
I'm curious too, why are you being someone desirable to "come back to" instead of being someone desirable period.
These are things I delegated to my H because he likes money stuff and is good at it, but now we'll both have to like and be good at it. I hate duplicating effort, but it looks necessary.
Instead of looking at this a duplicating effort, which you hate, why not try to view it as taking an active role in your future?
Instead of viewing it with dread, view it as a way of taking care of yourself, which is part of personal responsibility?
Partnerships aren't about delegating responsibilities, they are about sharing them.
Hi Cat04, thanks for all the very good questions. Thanks Accuray and Say, for stopping by and saying nice things!
Cat04, my first reaction to all your questions and most others, is why you're wrong about this or that detail. One of my 180s has been to listen more and answer less, and I practice it when I get a chance, and notice when I do it. So, thanks for the practice!
I have a quiet kind of joy and a mellow kind of fun. You're not often going to find me out raising he!! in a bar, and I'm not usually the most exuberant in a crowd. I'm more of a one on one kind of person. I found it scary getting out last weekend to meet new friends (new? I've known them going on a year now) unbeknownst to my H. Based on his job I have need to be paranoid for his and my kids' safety. So, scary. But fun and exciting, and energizing, and great to catch up live and in person with my buddies. I've also had some wonderful trips to visit other friends in PA and VA, and am enjoying giving myself a break from my responsibilities to do that. Joy to me is chatting across a fire, and I do that as much as possible. Even have one of my own on the patio. Joy to me is hearing the birds on a walk, watching the sun set and being out in nature. I'm doing that as much as possible.
Why don't I cry? I'm holding it together because we made a mutual decision not to involve our kids in this yet. Since I'm the major caretaker, I'm not crying most of the time. But I did begin to let some of it out on my walk today, and since it's dark out here on the porch I'm letting the tears fall now too. When I'm out with friends I'm not crying because I want to have fun and be happy, and I am. Something about my T's office gets me crying most weeks, by the end of the session. So I will recognize the truth in what you say and not feel bad about feeling sad sometimes. Just, most of the time really I don't feel sad.
Also, I am in denial. I really can't imagine that my H is going to divorce me, even though he says he is. It won't seem real until it happens. I ask you, what's the harm in enjoying the current moments, which are good, when what's around the corner is still around the corner?
Do you really think all things in a relationship need to be shared? Do we both need to scrub each toilet? Do we both need to cook dinner? It sounds facetious, but as two working parents of two kids, we divided things up. Different couples do things differently, but we divided along our strong points. I did most of the childcare, he did more of the wage-earning, I did/do 99% of the cooking and washing up, he does the laundry. He does the car maintenance and yard work. I'm in charge of any gardens or decoration, as well as holiday decorations. He does the investing and money management and pays the bills, I do the doctor's appointments and education. To us that makes sense, and to my closest friends it has been that way - my parents too. If I have a scrap of time left at the end of the day, I don't want to spend it worrying about investments. It's a necessary evil, like scrubbing toilets, which I have been happy to avoid so far but will face out of necessity. But I do like how you reframe it as taking care of myself; I'll adopt that attitude. I did recently get my car inspected and oil changed while H was out of town and it was OK - I got a nice 3-mile walk in drop-off and pick-up. I guess I'm just wondering if this division-of-labor instead of sharing of responsibility-sharing is part of how we lost our connection. There are other things I thought were fundamental truths about relationships that I was wrong about; wonder if this is another.
Why I want to be someone to 'come back to' - my H raised legitimate gripes about me at the beginning of this, and claimed that they were among the reasons he was walking away. Since he's walking away not just from me but also from his two boys, I feel it's essential to do everything in my power to make it possible for him to change his mind about this. I want him to come back, very much. If he does not, well, I'll be the better for having improved myself.
I had to cut that short and get out of db because my boys swooped in and asked for dinner.
Cat04, I'm trying to figure out what you're looking for from me.
I'm well aware that I'm not doing well. I'm sub-par at work, at home, a little distracted with the kids, comforting myself in lots of ways. I could have an emotional breakdown but it would hurt a lot of other people as well as myself and would definitely not move me toward repairing my relationship, so I will not. I will be as strong as I need to be, as stoic as is necessary. At the same time, I'm learning to use resources to help and I'm learning to be vulnerable and to feel emotions I used to bury. I am doing a lot for myself but I have no choice but to be there for my kids and my job. I have to, and I have to enjoy it, and I do. But I also see no alternative that is acceptable to me.
So, I did have a bit of a cry and I did explore my feelings about the fact that H left at 7:30 tonight saying "I'm going over to [friend's] for dinner, and I'll probably stay the night, so I'll be home in the morning before work." I said "ok!" but later let myself feel rejected, sorry for my kids, resentful of h. In a normal time I would have had no problem with that, but two nights in a row and given our situation, I guess he's working up toward physical separation, which will mean telling the kids, which will mean seeing them cry over their dad leaving, which will hurt.
You asked what makes me tick, what makes me happy. What am I doing just for me?
Well...
I read, all the time - it's one of my passions. Anything I can get my hands on. I read online, on my iphone, and books and books. I have two books going on now.
I love learning things, especially funky eclectic things - I love NPR and This American Life, and science, astronomy, interesting new music.
I love animals - I have more pets than I probably should but significantly fewer than after the bomb. I help out with animal rescue because it makes me feel good.
I love being outside, and spend time outside every day. I'm planning a three day backpacking trip with my best friend, and will be able to have my H to rely on to take care of the kids, dogs, and house so that I can do this. I've camped and hiked with H and the kids since they were small, and have since the bomb too, and have loved it. Not the last time but the most memorable time that I felt completely alive and filled with joy and excitement, was post-bomb, when we camped out and got caught in a major t-storm on top of a mountain hike we'd gone on - the trail turned to a river and we had to race back down in ankle deep rushing water and I helped S12 keep his morale up and it was funny because what else could it be, and we made it back, the rain stopped, and we had chili and wine and cornbread, drove an hour to use a laundromat, and it was wonderful.
I love-love-love being a mom. I love to hear my S14 and his friends around the kitchen table. I love to have them sleep over and bake muffins in the morning. I love teaching them things and learning from them. They are so cute and cool and amazing and unique.
I'm a mix of lots of extremes. I'm shy and outgoing, confident and self-conscious, intelligent and spacy, happy and sad. All depending on what I'm thinking about at the moment. I've learned to control my emotions and thoughts almost to the point where I don't even know what they are, but I'm learning to undo that. I'm seeing a counselor for the first time as an adult, and it's taking me to the next level of capability and effectiveness, and helping me be ok with what's happening in my life.
Hopefully that's enough of what I am and what makes me tick. Those are the things that came to mind, so I guess those are the things most important to me.
"Joy to me is chatting across a fire, and I do that as much as possible. Even have one of my own on the patio. Joy to me is hearing the birds on a walk, watching the sun set and being out in nature. I'm doing that as much as possible."
Me too, AD! ^^^^^ Love this!!!
I have just one thing to say to you right now. Don't clean the toilets. You do enough already. Get the Tidy Bowl Man to do it if you have to.
Oh thanks 2TP! Glad you like things I like!
Don't worry, I'm transitioning from housecleaners to sons cleaning toilets - I don't feel a need to share that one.
I think I must learn to stop venting about how much I do...I'm not trying to be a martyr, and I hope I don't sound like one. I spend plenty of time putting off stuff I should be doing.
I think I must learn to stop venting about how much I do...I'm not trying to be a martyr, and I hope I don't sound like one. I spend plenty of time putting off stuff I should be doing.
I don't think that at all. I do think you take on too much and I have been saying so for months. Set aside AD time as much as possible. You're worth it!
thanks
Cat04, my first reaction to all your questions and most others, is why you're wrong about this or that detail.
This doesn't really surprise me.
I could very well be wrong. It has been known to happen.
While I tend to be very intuned to people, I am not always correct in what I observe.
Funny, I believe very much the details matter, but fundamentally, they don't always...
Why don't I cry? I'm holding it together because we made a mutual decision not to involve our kids in this yet.
By no means would I advocate falling apart in front of your kids if you can help it. You need to be their rock through this. However, they also need to know that you are human and feelings are ok to be expressed sometimes.
Just, most of the time really I don't feel sad.
It may not be at the surface, however, it comes across in your calm demeanor. To me anyway.
Also, I am in denial. I really can't imagine that my H is going to divorce me, even though he says he is. It won't seem real until it happens. I ask you, what's the harm in enjoying the current moments, which are good, when what's around the corner is still around the corner?
I see this. The denial.
There is no harm in enjoying the current moments, however, you seem to be hanging onto the old marriage still, which, D or not, is dead.
There are two parts to D. An emotional divorce and the legal divorce. The emotional divorce is what you are living now and what you are fighting.
Do you really think all things in a relationship need to be shared?
In every relationship there is a sort of division of labor I suppose. Sort of a divide and conquer mentality that allows things to be accomplished more efficiently.
That being said, yes I do think all things should be shared.
In my M, well, it was similar to yours. He was the primary bread winner, and I was the primary caretaker, although I worked as well. I did the housework, the cooking, managed the maintenence of houses and vehicles, raised our son, and all of the other domestic things you can imagine. And my X was very unaware of what it took to make those things happen. I was told those things didn't need to even be appreciated because it was my "job." Even though I had a job as well. And I handled those responsibilities stoically.
I grew to resent those "duties". Resented the lack of help more than the actual duties. My X, very recently told me that he now understands and knows that he should have been doing more. Surprising? To me it was...
In my current R, we have much more equal footing. We both love cooking, have OCD about certain household duties (thankfully, they are opposite so we each tackle what we obsess about for the most part) but we have the same desire to have a clean house and work to make sure that neither one of us is bearing the brunt of it. We both work and contribute to the household funds and we talk about the finances. We talk about improvements we want to make to the house, the yard, what we want to spend money and time on. We discuss issues with the kids and bounce ideas off of each other. We discuss the best way to handle any of these issues and then each of us makes the final decision regarding our biological children. Even though one of us primarily does the shopping, we make our grocery list together.
This doesn't take away from our individual thoughts or impulses, in fact, I believe it allows us to be more supportive of them.
I love Goodwill and yard sales. I may not always need something, but I love scouring for bargains. If I see something, I can feel free to buy it if the money is available without the feeling of guilt of not checking with BF first. Or wondering if I am taking away from a need of the household or doing something that he won't like or approve of.
We appreciate when the other does something that needs to be done (scrubbing the toilet) and have no problem asking that something be done if we can't get to it. It allows for neither of us to have unspoken expectations that may go unmet. It allows for us to both be aware of all that is going on. However, neither is expected to do the laundry, cook, clean, or whatever alone. We both participate jointly.
This actually allows us to have free time together. It allows us to plan that time in ways that we want, so we can enjoy it, together or separately. It allows us to keep the connection. And recognize when it may be slipping a bit because life sometimes does get in the way.
Since he's walking away not just from me but also from his two boys, I feel it's essential to do everything in my power to make it possible for him to change his mind about this.
I remember having this belief. Truth is, I was wrong. My X did walk away from me and our son to a degree, however, he has stepped up and become a very involved father. Much more so than I ever expected from him.
When I began to recognize that, I then had to take a different look at my changes and my improvements. To see if they were really for me or for me AND him and our child. Some I kept, some I let go (even though they were legitimate complaints).
If your changes aren't truly for you, because they are things that you WANT to change, they aren't worth the cost. I stopped trying to be perfect for someone else (because the list will be ever changing and ongoing) and just learned to be who I wanted to be. I have to live with me every day. Whether there is someone else there or not.
Hi Cat - you're so perceptive, thanks for provoking my thoughts.
I didn't know what to talk about in IC today so I brought the division of labor vs sharing responsibilities question. I had a set of assumptions that I thought were important to being in a good marriage, and some were misguided or incomplete. The division of labor was one. So IC and I talked a little more about my specific situation and how different couples organize their lives differently, and the key turns out to be how they negotiate conflict. H and I divided up our responsibilities to avoid conflict. H did the laundry because he didn't like how I did it, and he probably resented it, although I thought it was a good solution and really appreciated it. H left me with the childcare because he didn't like my methods and didn't know how to have a discussion about them. He resented me and didn't tell me until after the bomb. Just a couple of examples. So, if I took the childcare duties because h and I agreed that I was doing a wonderful job and much better at certain things than he is, and if we agreed that he'd do the car maintenance because he's good at it and likes it, that would have been healthy. What we had was avoidant. And to bring back in your sharing concept, the discussing and agreeing, and negotiating differences, is where the sharing would have come in. So you could say that good partners share everything - even if they don't both DO everything. Interesting to think about.
We talked about the recent dog issues and she was really happy with how I expressed myself to H respectfully when we disagreed about feeding the dog table scraps. I had said that I didn't agree but didn't feel very strongly about it so I would respect that he was going to do it and I wasn't going to tell him not to, but asked that he respect that I wasn't going to do it. A couple of days later when the dog had diarrhea it was an easier conversation to mention that something was upsetting his stomach and let's stick with dog food until it's sorted out.
We talked about H's two nights out, which were announced as he was going out the door. I need to set some expectations that he'll be more considerate with providing notice and telling me when he isn't coming home.
We talked about h's passive aggressive behavior about his friend's lawn. He seems to have some kind of agreement with his friend that he hasn't made clear to me or S14, but he expects S14 to mow the friend's lawn, and midday on Sunday he loads up the mower and heads over to do it himself. He seems to act like he doesn't care and isn't mad, but we think it's very strange that he's carting the mower around and mowing his friend's lawn in another subdivision. S14 earns $20 when he does it. There's no specific time that's been established, we just know it's past due when H is gone with the lawnmower. I need to talk to H about what is being expected and ask H to talk with S14 and clarify what the rules and expectations are. S14 is seeing passive aggressive behavior, but needs to learn to respectfully navigate it.
We talked about how H is emotionally separated already. The boys have lost their father already. The moving out is going to just bring it out in the open, that's all. We'll probably need to talk soon about what he's planning.
I'm a mix of lots of extremes. I'm shy and outgoing, confident and self-conscious, intelligent and spacy, happy and sad. All depending on what I'm thinking about at the moment. I've learned to control my emotions and thoughts almost to the point where I don't even know what they are, but I'm learning to undo that. I'm seeing a counselor for the first time as an adult, and it's taking me to the next level of capability and effectiveness, and helping me be ok with what's happening in my life.
Sometimes someone on the board captures exactly how I'm feeling. You just did with the above statements. It's so hard to explain sometimes. Debating on whether to go back to counseling or not. My counselor was great and I learned alot about how my family and my past experiences have shaped who I am. But I think I need a SBT now. I know the why...now what do I DO?
Cat04, I'm trying to figure out what you're looking for from me.
I am not really looking for anything. I want you to do the looking. I can’t fix you, I can only fix me. If my questions make you think, then that is good.
I am sorry that you are not doing well. How do you propose to change that?
Honestly, I could and have thought about pulling your responses apart piece by piece but it all boils down to a few questions…
I feel like maybe I know a little bit more about A after reading about your likes and dislikes, although I see a lot of “safe”, “mom/wife appropriate” responses. Not that those are bad…they aren’t.
Did those things originate from your childhood and young adult hood, or since your M/R began?
Is there anything a little risky that you do, did, want to do, say like hang glide, watch scary movies, etc…stuff that you maybe don’t do because you have children and a husband and it doesn’t necessarily fit into the roles you live?
Do you see that for three posts, you said almost nothing about him? But a ton about yourself...
Then you spent an entire therapy session talking about your H, his behaviors, instead of learning more about A and your roles and faults and good things in the M...
I guess maybe I am looking for something. I'm looking for Adinva...
Hi again -
I used to do risky things - I backpacked through Europe, spent a year overseas, smoked, drank and experimented briefly with drugs, rebelled against authority, and drove too fast. The things I stopped doing I stopped because they are not who I want to be. So now I drink in moderation, work to excel within systems, follow laws, and try to make the world a better place for my having been in it. I didn't stop doing things because I was a wife and a mom. I stopped doing them and am a wife and a mom. I like a good scary movie and I love roller coasters. I travel when I can afford to, and when I can't I camp out. I've been whitewater rafting, rock climbing and rappelling, and horseback riding in the past couple of years, as a family.
I'm sensitive to the fact that I'm not very interesting or exciting by typical standards, but my friends will stay up half the night talking with me, and I have lots of things I'm interested in. I don't feel like I can or really want to compete for men's attention with young party girls, so I don't expect to try that scene again - I didn't much like it when I was in my 20's and it's not who I am now at all.
Bottom line, I am a mom, a career woman, and a volunteer. I have hobbies and friends. I have strong opinions. I have a lot going on in my life. I haven't got the time and don't feel the need to break out of some role, and I don't believe I've lost myself in my relationships at all.
My therapy sessions tend to be all about me, so I want to clarify that. I talk about a situation with H doing this or that and I talk about how I reacted or didn't, what I can teach my kids to break the pattern, what I could practice or try. I'm learning things about myself each time - that I avoid conflict too and when I meet it head on and handle it well I feel proud of myself, that I don't need to protect myself as much anymore from fear of past hurts being repeated because I'm stronger and wiser now; that I have faults I didn't see because they were coming out in response to bigger faults I perceived in my H, but I need to work on them anyway (oppositional behavior is a big one). I feel hope for the future as much as sorrow for the past. The 180s and things I'm changing are mental and emotional, and I hone them through all of my relationships, including here on the message boards as well as with my H and sons.
I think there's a place in the world for introverted bookworms who like mountain climbing just as much as there is for extroverted party-goers who like hang gliding. I love myself and think I'm pretty fascinating and well rounded.
There are still things I want to do when my responsibilities as a parent are lessened, but I really enjoy the things I get to do every day now, and I get time away to have fun too. I guess that's why I don't usually feel sad.
I love myself and think I'm pretty fascinating and well rounded.
This time I believe you.
Is this what your H gets to see?
H is not looking or he'd see it.
H met my need for emotional distance when I was younger and uncomfortable with strong emotions. Now I've been through childbirth twice, experienced death and the shortness of life, and had a cancer scare, and he's just plain not there emotionally for me. Worse than not there. I could accept that that was how my marriage was going to be, but then H pulled a switcheroo and told me he didn't feel anything for me and was miserable.
I am holding my head high, fulfilling my obligations with grace and good cheer, acting more mature and being more understanding of him, doing a lot less volunteer work because it was one of his gripes, planning trips and outings with my family and friends. I'm not playing any games to win him back, but I'm going on with my life and keeping the road back into my heart paved and smooth. If he looked, that's what he'd see.
Adinva,
When you talk about you or your boys, you shine.
When you talk about other stuff, not so much.
I don't now if you see it or not...
So subpar at things...how do you change that?
Cat, you're a sweetheart, but you're very tough on me.
Show me someone who makes it through a year of separation while hoping and trying to save their marriage, experiencing a difficult year at work, and going through the normal chaos of children entering the teen years, and lets it all roll off their back and is fine and I'll show you a liar. In fact, my life was in a challenging stage even when I thought my marriage was fine.
How I change it? Time, patience, forgiving myself when I can't do everything perfectly, doing my best, putting the best face on that I can, basically putting one foot in front of the other until I come out the other side of this.
Thanks for noticing that I'm happiest about my boys. They are the rainbow in my sky. I feel like all the living I've done so far has been leading up to being an amazing mom. I love being in the world so much I couldn't wait to share it with them, and I have so much love and respect for the independent individuals that they showed up as. I'm pretty excited for the time that they are grown up and I can do more just for myself, but at this time in my life being there for them is exactly what I want to be doing.
I had Cat's voice in my head this morning as I sat with H signing papers for refinancing our house. I couldn't wait to jump on the board and journal what he said. And I knew it was focusing on him and what he says and does, but oh well. It's a journal.
The settlement guy commented that our monthly payment is pretty low, less than a lot of apartments might be. And H looked at me and said "Remember that."
I try not to dwell on what this or that means. I'm happy we're refinancing because that suggests we won't lose the house and the kids will have that stability. I thought for a while that H was set on selling it and getting out of this area. I was open to talking about that even though I was in favor of staying here till the kids are out of high school.
But "remember that" caused me to think about apartment rents and the fact that unless things change a lot soon we'll also be paying for an apartment. Or, I'll be paying for the house and he'll be paying for an apartment. It's too bad. This is a financially stupid, emotionally stupid, logically stupid separation/divorce.
I'm attractive, funny, fun, fit, happy, well adjusted, understanding, intelligent, committed, honest, loving, and more. He is definitely a fool to leave.
So I was driving from the airport today thinking, what is it? Why doesn't he love me? Why won't he give us a chance? And I thought to myself, stop asking questions that have no answers. It helped for the moment. There's no answer that I can see, maybe that I'll ever see, and I'll just have to get on with things.
[quote=adinva
But "remember that" caused me to think about apartment rents and the fact that unless things change a lot soon we'll also be paying for an apartment. Or, I'll be paying for the house and he'll be paying for an apartment. It's too bad. This is a financially stupid, emotionally stupid, logically stupid separation/divorce.
I'm attractive, funny, fun, fit, happy, well adjusted, understanding, intelligent, committed, honest, loving, and more. He is definitely a fool to leave.
So I was driving from the airport today thinking, what is it? Why doesn't he love me? Why won't he give us a chance? And I thought to myself, stop asking questions that have no answers. It helped for the moment. There's no answer that I can see, maybe that I'll ever see, and I'll just have to get on with things. [/quote]
Hi Advina,
Yep, this is a big stumbling block for me too. There is no logic to it.
I just try to keep in mind that my H is sick/lost/suffering at the moment.
And therefore the normal rules don't apply.
He probably doesn't know the answers himself.
All we can do is focus on ourselves and get whatever positives we can out of a bad situation in terms of personal growth.
And show compassion, grace and patience for someone whom we once loved and who loved us.
We can get on with things, but we get on with them BETTER now; we've learned so much.
We've gained as well as lost. So keep these positives in mind if you can.
Thanks, NLW, this:
"And show compassion, grace and patience for someone whom we once loved and who loved us."
is how I strive to be. How I'd like to be. Thanks for your encouragement!
I'm on a business trip with a bunch of colleagues and have been thinking ahead to how things will be when I'm not married. I let my buddies encourage me to get out of my room and hit the town, and I had a meal at the bar by myself two nights ago. Last night there was a big dinner, so I sat next to some of the new guys and had good conversations. I have another half day of meetings to go, and plan to see some of the art and culture in this town before my flight home.
My sense of self is hidden behind strong protections built up when I was very young. I can be myself and seem friendly and carefree but the guard is still always at the ready. Perhaps this is what Cat04's been challenging, and perhaps I'm still defending myself unnecessarily and holding people at arms' length when it's no longer to my advantage. When the comments stung too much I responded in defense of myself, but I still appreciate the comments and the help.
As my buddy pointed out, I don't come here to have sunshine blown up my skirt. I said it before and I'll put my money where my mouth is. Cat04 I do appreciate you!
Good self evaluation AD. I was very similar. Always felt uncomfortable around others. But now I'm working on that and liking it. It was stuff I told myself about me. Many were irrational and skewed.
I have to do the going to the bar alone. Now that takes cojones
Cat, you're a sweetheart, but you're very tough on me.
Show me someone who makes it through a year of separation while hoping and trying to save their marriage, experiencing a difficult year at work, and going through the normal chaos of children entering the teen years, and lets it all roll off their back and is fine and I'll show you a liar. In fact, my life was in a challenging stage even when I thought my marriage was fine.
Ad,
I may be tough, but I promise you, I am no tougher on you or anyone else, than I am/was on myself.
Two weeks after I received one of my bombs, I was told by doctors that I very possibly, almost probably, had a form of breast cancer that would leave me dead in less than 5 years. My S was only twelve at the time. I had never seen such terror in anyone's face as was in my doctor's the day he told me. Terror, not sadness, not concern, but sheer terror as he searched his brain for what to do for me, even though he knew if he was correct, there was nothing anyone could do. He was basically giving me a death sentence. Funny thing is, I was still more concerned with saving my M than saving my life at that point. It was actually easier to reconcile, accept, and make plans for death than it was divorce.
I got very lucky. After almost four months of tests, surgery, waiting for results and quietly, almost silently except for the tears, creating items for my S so that he would know who his mother really was, have records of all the things that I thought I would want to tell him in his life that I wouldn't be around to tell him, I found out that the doctors were wrong. Five years later (the five year anniversary is next month), I thank God every day for that, for my life, and for all of the wonderful people who are in it.
Five years later...I shouldn't be here. I am. Alive. Something I wouldn't even allow myself to imagine for a long time. Even after the results came back, it took me a long time to believe that I was going to live. Not just survive but live.
When the next bomb came the following summer, even though it rocked my world even harder than I ever could have imagined, I was different. And my work began in earnest.
And I am here now, living in a time I never thought I would see, happy, in love, excited about life. And I expect more from myself than I ever did before. Life goes on and we can either go along for the ride, waiting to come out the other side, or create it.
The choice is ours, it always has been and always will be.
Hi Cat, your story is so inspiring, and more so is the fact that you didn't let these things defeat you. I'm glad for what you have now, and I think you're an amazing person.
I myself, am not quite there yet. I'm afraid to look too closely at things because I want my faulty H and my faulty M to make it and become better with me. I'm afraid to open my heart to other people too much, to put myself in tempting situations, and to really let go and live, because I still feel committed to my M until my H declares that we are done.
I don't expect to be one who will continue trying to win my H back, or hold myself back in order to stick around for him, once we are completely divorced. But until that day I'm still 100% married and 100% committed to doing whatever work I can do to save my family.
Do I expect to have the marriage of my dreams with my H? I don't have that expectation any more. But I love him and want him still. H said he's done, but until the ink is dry on my divorce I will act like there's a chance for us.
Hey Ad, just checking in. Hope you enjoyed the rest of your business trip.
As I read your posts, it seems we have a good bit in common. Quite, reserved, enjoy people but keep a distance to some degree....
"I'm afraid to open my heart to other people too much, to put myself in tempting situations, and to really let go and live, because I still feel committed to my M until my H declares that we are done."
I get this. On a recent business trip there was a big event with a late-night party. The party had a dj, a big dance floor and an open bar. I'd met new co-workers who were fun & friendly. I even had a drink which is rare for me. But I just couldn't bring myself to get on a dance floor and dance with another woman.
I don't feel bad at all about my choice. It aligns with my priorities & values. But that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy meeting new people and laughing. Glad you were able to enjoy some of these same things as well while being true to your own integrity.
"Do I expect to have the marriage of my dreams with my H? I don't have that expectation any more"
Not sure how to take this or how you meant it. I see 2 possibilities. 1) You're content to settle for something that is less than fulfilling or 2)You are accepting the fact that there is no perfection in any of us or any marriage but joy & blessings can be found in all circumstances if we focus on the positives and how to be loving.
What do you think, because that's what's important! ((Ad))
I've never had a relationship with another person in my life that fulfilled me or completed me, or met all my needs, never expected to and don't expect to.
You might say that my interest in working things out with my H and having a good marriage is settling because I might find someone out there who I can be more fulfilled with. I don't look at it that way.
With counseling I've seen some shortcomings in H, emotionally, that will likely never change. Do I throw in the towel, become an active participant in the divorce, and tell my kids that we agreed that divorcing was the best thing for us so we could find more happiness elsewhere? I don't think so.
I believe all relationships are composed of imperfect people who need the skills and tools to make the best life together that they can. I'm still ready to do this with H, whole heartedly. I don't call that settling. I vowed 18 years ago to love and honor him till death do us part, not till I don't like how things are going. If/when he divorces me, I'll feel released from my vows but I don't yet feel or want to feel that way.
I think there would need to be a different way of looking at this if my presence was hurting h or damaging our kids, but in the past year I've learned to change my part in our dynamics and our home is pleasant. My h is no longer stressed out and miserable. I believe if we could change this much we can change more. If he can't get himself interested in working on the relationship it'll be hopeless, but we are in a process that takes time. Just because he has said before that he's not interested doesn't mean he can't change his mind. Every reconciliation on this board happened because someone changed their mind.
Thanks for prompting me to think through this more deeply, I hope my answers make sense.
I think it makes perfect sense, especially this part:
I believe all relationships are composed of imperfect people who need the skills and tools to make the best life together that they can. I'm still ready to do this with H, whole heartedly. I don't call that settling. I vowed 18 years ago to love and honor him till death do us part, not till I don't like how things are going. If/when he divorces me, I'll feel released from my vows but I don't yet feel or want to feel that way
I now know that I shouldn't expect another person to "complete" me (boo on Jerry Maquire). That's my job.
Thanks LaBug! I think there should be a DB guide to the movies, to keep us romantic and physically deprived LBS's from watching and expecting that fairy tale stuff in the movies. Jerry Maguire could get 2 Spews. Is there a realistic movie out there? 5 GALS.
Love your post Adinva. I have been avoiding movies for the most part and miss them!
I believe all relationships are composed of imperfect people who need the skills and tools to make the best life together that they can. I'm still ready to do this with H, whole heartedly. I don't call that settling.
So true! I read a quote somewhere from an elderly person who was asked why there marriage had lasted so long (I think it was 60 odd years.) They said that in their day, if something was broken, you didn't throw it away, you fixed it.
I truly believe that our core issues rub up against each other in marriage (the principle in Harville Hendrix's writings which also suggests that is why we are initially attracted to our S.) That is when marriages become really difficult, but if we can work through those issues, the result is a much deeper relationship and a healing of our core issues.
Thank you for your words today which inspire me.
((( )))
Well my weekend plans changed on a dime. I was trying to figure out a way i could drive two boys 9 hrs to a tournament and 9 hours back monday evening.it just would be too risky without another driver and with hOliday traffic. So instead s14 asked for a sleepover. H told me at 8 that hes going to his friends house. Has a bike ride scheduled for tomorrow so he plans to come home to change in the morning and head out to ride. I said fine and walked past him, acting as if it doesnt matter to me. Now there are 7 or 8 boys in the basementand i think i will sleep outon the porch.
Hope you have fun with the boys and can get some rest. We have typically 1 to 3 extras every Friday night either for my S or D or both.
Sorry your H isn't there to help and spend the evening with you. He's missing out.
It turned out to be a difficult night. They wanted to walk to the store nearby for snacks and wound up at a girl's house instead. They were 20 minutes later than the time I told them to be walking in the front door, so I was headed out in my van to find them when they arrived home. They were goofing around at 1:30 when one of them had a big soccer game in the morning and said he'd be asleep by 12:30. At 4:30 S12 came into my room and woke me to tell me a bunch of them were in his room and told him they peed on him, and he had a big wet spot on his shirt and pants. I went down to talk to S14 and there was just one kid down there and he didn't know where the others were. Great. After checking and locking all the outside doors, I heard them giggling in the work area of the basement and went back down. There ensued discussion, explanations, denials, showers.
H rolled in and back out around 9, but right before he left he heard from S12, and went down and screamed at the boys to wake up and tell him what happened. "Nothing. We didn't do anything" they said. So, H told me no more sleepovers for S14 until he tells exactly what happened. S12 has a track record of peeing at night so their story has some validity, but their being in his room at all was obviously wrong and if they weren't there they wouldn't be in any trouble.
I suspect S14 will stick by his story since almost anything else he might say will make things worse for him. I think they were pranking one of the other 14yos (the one who was supposed to be asleep for soccer) and decided to prank S12 too. Maybe they poured water from a bottle on him. We don't know.
Nice way to start the summer off. Also I'm very tired today and grumpy. Will need to get some catchup sleep.
Oh Advina,
This does sound like one heck of a night.
But pretty par for the course, in my experience. I have a D16, and when the girls get together at night things can go pretty silly (throw in some boys and you can bet things will go really pear-shaped).
I, too, get tired and grumpy with my kids a lot of the time. It really is something I struggle with, as I'm pretty fragile these days.
Not having an H around to step in and help in these sorts of situations is so hard.
I used to try to get him to DO something - or, at least, I'd tell him about what went on in specific situations.
But after some advice on these boards, I took the view that he really wasn't in the right frame of mind to be able to contribute sensibly at all. So now I just keep my own counsel and deal with things with the kids as I see fit. Easier for me as my H is not still living at home.
But you're right, it's very hard.
Thanks NLW, it always helps when someone understands you!
In our M my H and I had polarized to the point where he was much harsher than he needed to be and I was trying to counteract that by being much more nurturing. We've reset that quite a bit this past year by me not jumping so quickly to react to what H does. I even sometimes compliment the way he handled something or even just try to appreciate that he handled it in his way. However we did it, I think we're off the see-saw.
A couple of 180s this weekend.
First, I told a friend from my neighborhood about my sitch. I invited her to walk with me to get a cup of coffee, and in the course of conversation I mentioned that we were probably getting a divorce - I explained where we were at and how I was trying to do what I could to make things better. She's the first neighbor I've told at all, and the first new person I've told in a very long time.
She surprised me by saying she was in a similar boat. Her h has threatened to get an apartment many times over the years. He is a pain in the neck and I'd hate to be married to him, but my friend was very grounded and spoke of boundaries and not letting his spew get to her. Since her H is very passive, he hasn't taken any steps toward D yet. So she really understood my sitch and the way I was approaching it. I was able to handle my emotions throughout, and was glad I could share this with a friend and not get overwhelmed by my feelings.
Also, I opted out of a family activity. H told me he was taking S14 over to his friend's house to watch lacrosse on the big tv since the friend's S15 is in town. Ordinarily we'd all go hang out there, so I asked if h meant that S12 and I were not invited. H said we could all go. I recalled how uncomfortable I was last time, with the friend and his 24 yo gf in her Hello Kitty socks cuddled up in one chair (the friend has a movie theater style room with 6 reclining chairs), H in his own, and me trying to force S12 to let me share his since it was that or the floor. I felt unwelcome, unwanted, and really awkward because in the past H would have shared a chair with me, or S12 would have wanted to cuddle with me. I just realized I didn't want to go, and I had other things I'd rather do, so I told H I'd stay home. I was glad - especially now that the friend and his gf are providing a comfortable landing place for H to avoid coming home overnight, I don't really feel like socializing with them as if everything is fine.
So, H left a while ago to have dinner at the friend's house and told me he'd be staying the night. I just said "oh" - a little surprised, and then, "ok, see ya." I kind of thought on a holiday weekend maybe we'd try to do something fun and here he was going to spend it with his friend and his friend's girlfriend and kid. I followed up by saying "we might do something fun tonight. If we go anywhere I'll text you."
So I wracked my brain to think of something fun. Since the kids are scattered and I have weeding I thought I could fit a cookout in. Got some brats and Bubba burgers and cooked them on the grill. It was my first attempt at Bubba burgers, and I don't eat burgers or cook them, so unfortunately S14's wasn't cooked enough and he didn't like it. But I liked my brat so cookout = success. H texted me to invite us over for a movie. I confirmed with S14 that he didn't really want to go, and texted back to H thanks but we'll stay home.
I had a mini lightbulb moment at the grocery store. I was feeling a bit upset that H is replacing us with his friend's home and family, and kind of had a sad look on my face. I realized it is what it is, and I needed to really be OK with myself. Not just acting ok in front of h and the kids. What would make me feel happy about tonight knowing that H isn't there and isn't going to be part of it. So I got into choosing a whole bunch of fruit and chips to go with the meal, and s'mores, and thought about some other people I could invite over. I didn't end up inviting anyone because I really need to get the yardwork done, but it was a step in the right direction to consider it.
Hi SeekingPeace. That's a good name. Who are you?
Your posts are in moderation now so the best thing you can do is post frequently in other people's threads and your own. Have you started a thread with your story yet?
People will want to know how long you were together, if you have kids how old they are, and what has happened so far.
If you're struggling with pain and confusion, get your power back now by focusing on you. You're a great and valuable person. You're going to be better than ever. The future beyond all this is looking great for you. Thanks for visiting my thread.
Ad, do you and H ever have a positive interaction?
No matter how steeled you are for his reactions or actions, that's got to be painful.
Yes labug, we do have positive interactions. For example, with the new pup, we've been struggling with the issues he brings, and I can see h's frustration when he starts calling him "your dog". But we are discussing, and talking about solutions, and I've supported some of his less conventional methods, and this week he got the crate out and I applauded his good thinking and how well it's been working so far. All the while we share laughs about how silly he is as we're talking about his poop and he's laying there on his back looking all goofy. Hard to explain, but working together and laughing is good.
Positive interactions like connecting and sharing something not external (kids/dog) are not really happening as he is very actively avoiding me, or actively running toward something else. He's not home much, just arriving and departing mostly.
He shared a comment about his bikeride yesterday. He had come in from an overnight out, got his bike, and left until mid-afternoon, and I had not asked with whom or where or anything. So he shared the following: "Wow, michelleR always complains that she can't lose weight, but after we rode 60 miles together she got a DairyQueen blizzard." huh. I responded "Gee, those have a lot of calories." Couple of things. One is I'm pissed that he leaves us to go on 60 mile rides with someone from his office. A long time ago he kept talking about this Michelle and invited me on a bikeride with her. I was a little suspicious back then and when I met her I was relieved because she is rather heavy, middle aged, not especially attractive - and h has always been quite overtly biased against heavy people, and made it clear to me that if I weren't fit he would not love me as much (nother story, we've been over that before in previous threads) - the point is she was not someone I viewed as a threat. But she is an example of the lost kitten types he seems to collect. She wants to get into shape so he'll bend over backwards and give away family time to meet her for hours. I was surprised to hear this was who he met this weekend, but I didn't express surprise and I'm not dwelling on it. We've all known it's possible he has an OW and I remain convinced that what I do wouldn't be different either way so I'm not beating myself up with the idea.
Second thought about it is he chose to share something negative. It is his way - I think he will say something potentially impressive about someone (60-mile ride) but qualify it by cutting something about it down (ice cream). When we hiked after bomb date the week our kids were at camp, he talked about his friend and a girl climbing some famous mountain, and cut it down by saying it was just a touristy thing, that the guides do almost all the work, no big deal. Many example of this. I think he feels less inadequate if he can show these admirable things others do are no good for x or y reason. I'm sorry to see that he seems so un-valuable himself to need to do that.
Done mind reading him, just wanted to journal out these two thoughts. I'm off to figure out how to have fun today on the holiday.
Bug, a lot is painful, and I don't think I'm so steeled as much as confident that I'll be able to deal. I can take it and roll with it. I'll be ok but I'll hurt some in the meantime and that is OK. If it didn't hurt I wouldn't be human or as emotional and intensely feeling as I am, and I wouldn't choose that.
AD- Your 180's & GAL are great. I'm glad you turned down the invitation from H. I remember wanting to do anything and everything I could w/ my w even if it was uncomfortable and not in my best interest. I will not do that anymore.
Sorry about the sleep-over fiasco. I have 3 boys and I know too well what kind of shenanigans can happen.
Hope u have a good Memorial Day!
I think it makes perfect sense, especially this part:
I believe all relationships are composed of imperfect people who need the skills and tools to make the best life together that they can. I'm still ready to do this with H, whole heartedly. I don't call that settling. I vowed 18 years ago to love and honor him till death do us part, not till I don't like how things are going.
I now know that I shouldn't expect another person to "complete" me (boo on Jerry Maquire). That's my job.
Luv both of these^^^
Thanks Say! Sleepover was a snafu, as in situation normal. Gotta love boys. Nice to have someone understand.
Adinva,
Your posts always teach me a lot and make me think, dwell and then apply.
What you say about staying committed to your M keeps running through my mind.
I read once that the reasons why we marry someone--physical attraction, intellectual connections, great sex, good conversations, need to be together, etc. etc.--have nothing to do with the skills needed to stay married, which is figuring out how to work through problems together and giving each other reason and confidence to grow and the space to be alone
Huh.
I'm really inspired by the skills you are applying in figuring out how to stay married.
WofP
Hey Ad, hope you found something fun for the holiday. I'll chime in on the sleepover thing too. S13 typically has 1 to 3 friends over almost every Friday. It's fun but we certainly have to find good boundaries. Our latest is "no food upstairs". The big issue is our sin not taking responsibility to clean up. Just another learning opportunity.
Your observations on your h are interesting...lost kitten...devaluing accomplishments of others., etc. you are right in that it can be mind reading but you also seem to be very astute. There is something there that your H needs to deal with. It's hard knowing that he has to choose to do so himself.
Glad you are able to acknowledge the hurt and keep moving. You are a strong person. Take care
Thanks CES! I'm pulling weeds outside, must be 100 degrees out there! Came in for another bratwurst, yum! And check the boards over lunch.
I think mindreading is a bad idea, but trying to learn what makes your spouse tick is a different thing altogether. This should come from conversation but since my H and I are in such a bad spot I do it through observation. I am learning that things I judged before are now best understood, with the recognition that I am also not perfect, but trying.
I wish I could tell h how much better equipped I am now to be a partner to him, but that's not db
and it wouldn't work. He has to realize it on his own.
I wish I could tell h how much better equipped I am now to be a partner to him, but that's not db and it wouldn't work. He has to realize it on his own.
I was sitting out on my front porch (it's beautiful here this morning, we're having unusually moderate temps) enjoying my last cup of coffee and watching the birds, thinking very similar thoughts.
And my thoughts turned to, if we divorce now, he won't even know the woman he is divorcing, because I didn't know the person I've become could even exist.
I wish I could tell h how much better equipped I am now to be a partner to him, but that's not db and it wouldn't work. He has to realize it on his own.
I completely understand. This past year has forced me to confront some of my tendencies that I've discovered I don't really like about myself. I've learned to force myself to try new things, because I usually do like them once I've given it a try.
And I've definitely learned what it means to be a good partner to someone. In the past I was way too independent and we weren't enough of a team together.
So I know that if we did try again, things wouldn't be like they were before because I am a completely different person than I was last year and that's a good thing.
But it can be very frustrating to know that I may never get the chance to show him.
At least I know that the next relationship I'm in, with H or someone else, will have a better shot because of everything that has happened. I may not have asked for this situation, but I will do my best to learn from it.
You might say that my interest in working things out with my H and having a good marriage is settling because I might find someone out there who I can be more fulfilled with. I don't look at it that way.
With counseling I've seen some shortcomings in H, emotionally, that will likely never change. Do I throw in the towel, become an active participant in the divorce, and tell my kids that we agreed that divorcing was the best thing for us so we could find more happiness elsewhere? I don't think so.
I believe all relationships are composed of imperfect people who need the skills and tools to make the best life together that they can. I'm still ready to do this with H, whole heartedly. I don't call that settling. I vowed 18 years ago to love and honor him till death do us part, not till I don't like how things are going. If/when he divorces me, I'll feel released from my vows but I don't yet feel or want to feel that way.
I think there would need to be a different way of looking at this if my presence was hurting h or damaging our kids, but in the past year I've learned to change my part in our dynamics and our home is pleasant. My h is no longer stressed out and miserable. I believe if we could change this much we can change more. If he can't get himself interested in working on the relationship it'll be hopeless, but we are in a process that takes time. Just because he has said before that he's not interested doesn't mean he can't change his mind. Every reconciliation on this board happened because someone changed their mind.
Yes, every reconciliation on this board happened because someone changed their mind.
Every divorce happened for the very same reason.
I don’t think it is settling to want a better M. I don’t think it is settling to hope that that is possible.
I believe we as LBS, should do everything in our power to make it possible for a reconciliation to happen. That means recognizing and learning to accept our S as they are. I don’t know if it means dissecting every little action or word from them necessarily. I think we can get to deep in trying to analyze our S and then it does appear like settling. As we analyze and accept our own behaviors and thoughts, we can simply learn to accept that people are different and that is the way of life. The only reason to go deeper with our S’s behavior is to know if it is something that we can accept into our lives or not. When we are able to do that, that is when we know if we are settling or not.
I'm afraid to look too closely at things because I want my faulty H and my faulty M to make it and become better with me. I'm afraid to open my heart to other people too much, to put myself in tempting situations, and to really let go and live, because I still feel committed to my M until my H declares that we are done.
Tempting situations are not good for anyone who is vulnerable or still wanting their M. I agree wholeheartedly with avoiding those situations until you are sure you are ready for the possible outcomes.
That being said, being afraid of letting go and living for yourself, avoiding looking too closely at things, is actually damaging to the possible future of your M and your life IMO.
The only fear that I see here is the fear that maybe, just maybe, if you do these things, you may very well end up finding that you agree with your WAS and you don’t want this M anymore. It is a valid fear. It is one that happens sometimes. If it is a fear that you refuse to face, then you do end up either settling for a M that maybe you don’t really want or an unfulfilled life.
If reconciliation comes, you will be ahead of your H. You will have to be patient and wait for him to “catch up” with you. That is part of DB as well. It is why it is said that piecing is harder than standing. It is also a necessary part of the process.
And my thoughts turned to, if we divorce now, he won't even know the woman he is divorcing, because I didn't know the person I've become could even exist.
Hi Cat04!
Your words as always gave me lots to think about.
If H could not change, and did not change, from his fear of intimacy, refusal to acknowledge or share feelings, avoidance of problems, and absolute refusal to see any kind of future for us, well, I would become a WAS too. So if I thought - here he is and here he'll stay, this is the entire package take it or leave it - I would be settling too much if I stayed married to him.
Just changing my part in the dynamic has created changes that I can see, and I don't think he's aware of them. He said I don't listen, but I've learned to hear him in his language. A snide comment suggests a topic I should bring up later to kick around and find out what his thoughts are (I used to snipe back to stand up to him). A 'you-never' statement (you never remember to put away the garden tools) used to be something to argue and challenge, and now it's insight into how I'm coming across to him; an opportunity to negotiate agreement that we can both be satisfied with. There's so much more wrong with our R that we'll have to work on, but I can already see how to respond to him better and take his griping less personally. So I'm not buying the idea that he can't change...because WE have already changed. That is why I don't see as much point in looking closely at his issues and making a decision based on them now. I wouldn't say that as 'afraid' right now though I used that word a post ago.
In my pre-bomb marriage there were aspects I didn't think were 100% great - ML challenges, personality changes, jobs I thought were too stressful - but part of the commitment I made from the beginning was to grow with him, to roll with the changes, to accept and love him as he was. In his words, "you gotta take the good with the bad." I think settling conveys a sense of entitlement and superiority that I don't feel is realistic in my worldview. I made my choice based on all the information I gathered while we dated for four years, and I knew his drawbacks and thought we had great potential for a life together. We unfortunately didn't have the skill set needed to get through life's challenges, and I was blindsided when he decided to walk instead of work on things. It will take him seeing me in the perspective gained from separating himself from me, for him to decide if he would like to work on things after all.
As long as I see hope and opportunity I don't think I'm settling with him, but he's got to have space and time to continue on the path he's on and I'm trying to give it to him.
Just in case I sound like I have it together, I thought I'd journal the part of my weekend I'm not so proud of.
Sunday morning H tried to arrange go karts with me via text, but I didn't get it. When I got home I researched the place and found that the kids aren't old enough to do it (this place is only for people with a drivers license or kids who've done their 2-day $300 training class). I thought it was nice that H was trying to do something fun so I suggested that since they were already out at the pool with their friends maybe we could do a dinner-time thing. Turns out H really was just interested in entertaining his friend's S15. I suggested shooting and he liked that idea and took friend, friend's 24yo gf, and the s15 out shooting. I worked in the garden and S12 came home with a friend from the pool to play inside for a while, and S14 called me for a pickup from the pool with his friends. I went out to buy popsicles and when I got home there were two other cars in the driveway - my parents whom I'd invited over for a cookout for dinner and H's friend's car. So I came in and said hello to my parents and friend's S15 who was in the kitchen with S14 and his friends.
I'm sitting in the living room looking at photos with my parents when H and his friend and the 24yo gf came in from outside, I guess H was giving them a tour. Here's what's important (to me). I did not get up off the floor to hug them, and just said hi and continued talking to my parents. I didn't want to see them and I didn't know what to say to them since they've been harboring my WAH. They were good friends last summer, but now I feel very uncomfortable with them. 24yo gf hovered around and sat with my parents to look at the photos with us, and she complimented my gardens, and I was polite but that's it. I barely saw or talked to H and his friend. I was nicest to the S15 but didn't go hug him either. I feel like I just emotionally retreated from all of them.
I don't know that I want to force myself to be all huggy and bff-ish with these people. I don't really know what goes on at their house or what they say to H. I know if he didn't have their house to crash at for free then he'd have to spend money on a hotel room if he wanted to get out of our house. I feel betrayed by them, and I feel like they're not my friends. But - they're in my house.
Oh well, it wasn't for long, because the three of them left to take S15 to the airport to go to his home in another state, and h told me he wasn't hungry for dinner and disappeared upstairs. I made the hamburgers, brats, and hotdogs, corn and watermelon for my parents and me, S12 and S14 and his friend from the neighborhood. Everything got eaten up. While I was cleaning after everyone was gone, H came looking for an extra hamburger but they were all eaten (ha).
I'm wondering, for you people who've divorced and now have OP in your S's life, how cordial are you? Does time make it easier? I know it's supposed to be good for the kids if you all get along, but I feel like this: If I'm the one who tried and got left I should be allowed to seek happiness with someone else. If H left me and has someone new they are both rats. Do you just DECIDE not to be this way for the greater good? Ugh, it looks hard.
Just in case I sound like I have it together, I thought I'd journal the part of my weekend I'm not so proud of.
I don't think their was anything you did in that interaction to be un-proud. I think you dealt with it fine.
& I also think you definitely have it together. You are an inpiration to the LBS community.
And my thoughts turned to, if we divorce now, he won't even know the woman he is divorcing, because I didn't know the person I've become could even exist.
Deep, true, and sad.
Got to agree with SIAS. I didn't see anything in your story that sounded bad or anything to not be proud of. You were polite and cordial. I don't think you needed to be anything but that.
I can understand why you feel betrayed. But you don't know what they are saying to your H. For that matter, you don't know what he's saying to them either. So I think you handled it correctly. Be cordial. Be nice. Leave it at that until/unless you find out otherwise.
I actually think you are doing great. You know you have some areas to work on, and you're brutally honest about them. That takes courage. Something not everyone has (including myself). You should be very proud of the work you've done to get to know the woman you've become.
i think what you described is totally appropriate. not everyone i run into gets a hug and i don't always want a hug.
what you said about them, though, brought something home to me. i've been feeling betrayed by H's family. he's living at his mother's house. i don't know what they are saying to him and i don't know what H has said to them (i suspect some fairly vile things, though, because he REALLY felt sorry for himself in the beginning).
all i know is their actions have hurt my feelings. i don't know how i'll react to them when, or if, i see them again. but, your words have given me some compassion for them today. they are helping H, plain and simple. maybe they want us to be together, maybe not. i will try to look at what they are doing is helping him instead of betraying me. after all, they can't turn him down when he wants to stay or wants to talk.
also, from experience, i know it's so much better for the kids when all the steps get along. actually, i began to really like my ex's wife and we became best friends. there was no betrayal involved so maybe it was easier. the kids deserve to have peace between the families. none of this was their doing and we have to set an example for adult behavior, even if it's only us.
Hi Ad,
Just wanted to say that I don't see anything wrong with how you acted this past weekend. You were friendly and cordial, that is the most you can do at this point.
Did your H have a good relationship with your parents before? Does he try to avoid them now?
My H was never overly fond of my parents. He has had a running joke about how poorly we communicate (anyone heard of The Road to Abilene?) and calls it The ____(my maiden name) Communication Method. It's where everyone goes out of their way to do what they assume others want and don't tell anyone what they actually want, so nothing gets decided and no one gets what they want. We're getting a lot better; it forces you to be the one assertive person. But anyway, they initially didn't think he was good for me because at four years they thought he should fish or cut bait. They also didn't like that our children would be biracial and suffer ostracism, but they come from very old sheltered New England families and I had big arguments with them over this stuff. My aunt, who was very eccentric and negative, used to write me letters with snide comments about his ancestral country of origin since our countries were enemies when she was growing up.
This is all ancient history and my aunt has passed and my parents accepted and like him and we see them about once every week or two.
For about the past year H stopped going on our trips and participating when they came over. My mom takes everything personally so she started commenting that he didn't like her (how could I say it's not you mom, it's me). He comes around to eat when they're over but he mostly avoids them.
He is aware that they do not know our sitch. Reconciliation would be a lot more complicated if they knew, since they would likely hold it against him. Also, since my mom's mind gets in a rut sometimes, I would hear about it over and over and over.... I plan to tell them when we've told the kids.
My issue with this weekend, NH and Say, and thanks for supporting me!, is mainly that I couldn't act more upbeat and like I had a fun life going on. Not hugging them was out of our usual routine, so I was noticeably colder to them and they would have noticed that. I haven't decided yet if I want to 'act as if' with them or if I want to put some distance between us. No, I really want to put some distance, to show them I disapprove and dislike what they're doing.
H's friend is the king of 'well you can't help how you feel.' And he has slept with wives of his colleagues. And he treats his 24yo gf like a passing plaything - he knows she'll eventually want someone her own age and get married and have kids, but he'll keep her until then. And of course, they are all too welcoming to H when he wants to avoid his family and responsibilities.
Hey Adinva
I can totally relate to this
For about the past year H stopped going on our trips and participating when they came over. My mom takes everything personally so she started commenting that he didn't like her (how could I say it's not you mom, it's me). He comes around to eat when they're over but he mostly avoids them.
My W avoids my family like the plague at the moment & has done for about the past 4 months. What I tell myself is that it is their issue & I tell my parents and family that it is nothing they have done. Hopefully they'll wake up Adinva - because family is family & when things are tough everyone needs each other.
No matter what anyone says about you or your sitch on here Ad, noone can question your commitment to DB. You've invested a lot in your H (put up with his behaviour) and your family, and deserve to be happy.
Bill
My mom takes everything personally so she started commenting that he didn't like her
(how could I say it's not you mom, it's me).
STRONGLY DISAGREE
It is not YOU it is HIM.
He is depressed and the feelings are not inside of him.
He does not have LOVE for anyone right now.
The depression is clouding his view of the world.
He is trying to run away from it and figure out
what will make him feel better.
That of course includes YOU and anything associated with YOU.
No matter what you might have done it would not have changed his depression.
As far as your MOM goes, yes it was better left unsaid.
However the poor communication continues between you and your parents.
Kind of helps with his justifications, typical I guess.
Well they know us better than anyone else and use that against us, to somehow make us think it is our fault.
It is not going to bring him out of his depression one way or the other.
Cadet, thanks, that perspective makes me feel better. I'm used to taking all the blame for everything as if I can control everything. I will try to break that habit and just own what's mine. If he was depressed, I reacted badly and exacerbated the situation, failed to understand and shamed him. He believes he isn't depressed, and he also believes if he were he could not seek treatment or his career would suffer. Damn the career, that it would rise above his family in his priorities.
The boundaries I've learned with H have helped with my siblings and P's actually. It's not my responsibility to look out for everyone else, it's just my responsibility to make my own feelings clear. Helps so much with road trips - I can let them go back and forth for a while but at the point I need a decision I make it and let them do something different if they need to.
We would have a more real and complete relationship if I shared with them all the pain and anguish and not-knowing of this past year. But that is not the relationship we have. My experience with them tells me to find other supporters and let them deal with done deals, not raw emotions. That's not the area they do well in. My mom absorbs all the stress, makes it about her, and doesn't sleep or gets other health issues. I've seen it happen through my sisters' relationship issues. In my family I'm the one who has it all together and isn't so needy. But it's for my own protection - if I don't need them they can't let me down.
Part of what this life stage is teaching me is that that worked for me when I was a kid but it's hurting me in my relationships now. On Mother's Day I looked my mom in the eyes and said I love you. It's the first time I've ever done that.
Baby steps...
This makes me think of an issue I have with the solution based focus of DB. I shouldn't have to delve into why I am the way I am and what my emotional shortcomings are, I should just do x and see what happens. When x is: being friendly to new people, saying I love you to someone who might not respond back, reaching out and giving my H a hug that he might rebuff. These are things that are hard for me. I lose patience when people here say this is hard or that is hard, and I want to say, stop whining, just do it!
But maybe there is internal work that must be done to make it not just easy but POSSIBLE to do this thing that seems hard to us. I have a good counselor who is helping me work through the things that hold me back, and that combined with solution-based efforts is what I believe is necessary for me.
Adinva - I think you are right that the solution-focused strategies don't account for the internal work that we have to do, but I think that these strategies give us time to do that internal work while showing ourselves (not just our Hs/Ws) that things CAN be different, even if it feels hard at first.
Glad to hear that you have a good IC helping you in that regard.
He believes he isn't depressed, and he also believes if he were he could not seek treatment or his career would suffer.
SCRIPT
I know very few people that will admit to being depressed.
Or that will DO something about it.
When over 70% of the United States population is depressed I would say the chances are very good that he is depressed.
Might be MASKED depression, that you can not SEE, but you would not be where you are right now if he was not depressed.
I didn't say you could FIX it but you do need to understand it.
For about the past year H stopped going on our trips and participating when they came over. My mom takes everything personally so she started commenting that he didn't like her (how could I say it's not you mom, it's me). He comes around to eat when they're over but he mostly avoids them.
He is aware that they do not know our sitch. Reconciliation would be a lot more complicated if they knew, since they would likely hold it against him. Also, since my mom's mind gets in a rut sometimes, I would hear about it over and over and over.... I plan to tell them when we've told the kids.
My issue with this weekend, NH and Say, and thanks for supporting me!, is mainly that I couldn't act more upbeat and like I had a fun life going on. Not hugging them was out of our usual routine, so I was noticeably colder to them and they would have noticed that. I haven't decided yet if I want to 'act as if' with them or if I want to put some distance between us. No, I really want to put some distance, to show them I disapprove and dislike what they're doing.
H's friend is the king of 'well you can't help how you feel.' And he has slept with wives of his colleagues. And he treats his 24yo gf like a passing plaything - he knows she'll eventually want someone her own age and get married and have kids, but he'll keep her until then. And of course, they are all too welcoming to H when he wants to avoid his family and responsibilities.
Just chiming in to agree with you & Verab. I had a counselor (who was the source of me finding DB) say that this approach does help create more calm in chaos but we will still have emotional pains that will need to be dealt with for healing. As within anything, its an opinion but it make sense to me.
Ad, I'm with you on the family stuff as well. My family knows things aren't good but I've refused to give details except my own issues. I've talked with my brother more than anyone and have had to stop that as well because of the damage it was doing on his view of my W.
You are digging in on you. That's great and what you can control. Nothing bad about the struggle you had with your H's friends. Its human and you're acknowledging it and working through it. Makes sense to me.
Thanks NHMom, I appreciate your insight. I didn't realize you were also keeping this quiet from your family. That's hard, isn't it? My sisters both know and they've been a lot of help. But there is guilt for me in keeping a secret from my P's.
But maybe there is internal work that must be done to make it not just easy but POSSIBLE to do this thing that seems hard to us. I have a good counselor who is helping me work through the things that hold me back, and that combined with solution-based efforts is what I believe is necessary for me.
I think it's like most treatments for illness. If someone is really sick with a systemic infection, we might give tylenol to treat the pesky symptoms of the infection but without the right IV antibiotics, the patient will die.
You have to eradicate the cause.
I tried other therapies for awhile and failed miserably because I didn't understand why I reacted as I did and had not worked to eradicate the coping mechanisms that no longer served me well.
I always ended up back in the same place. It wasn't until I really allowed myself to go to that painful place that I needed those coping mechanisms for that I understood that I could let go of those things.
I wish I had expressed that better.
Adinva,
For me, I made the conscious decision to keep it from my family and so the only ones who know about H's A are two very close friends who I know will walk through coal for me and H's parents. I told them because they were so worried about his leaving so suddenly and because after much thought, I realized that there are only three people in the world who can forgive H for what he's doing: me and his folks so I keep the circle really tight. As for my family, they don't know, they only know H was depressed and needed some space. My folks would worry too much and they're elderly and my siblings would probably go and confront him which is not what I want.
WofP
It's so great to have this message board where people really understand!
Looks like the D train continues on.
Tonight while eating a stir fry I made, H asked me what was the name of the lawyer I knew who was a financial planner. I told him it was a mediator and I just googled mediator and financial planner and didn't have any special affinity for this one.
In fact, I told him I had talked to that one last year because I thought he had such financial pressures regarding the house that if we talked to the financial planner we could figure out how to manage better and call the D off. I told H that back then I spent time on the phone with them and they said they don't really do that, they basically process divorcing couples. They said everyone who comes through gets divorced. So, I said, I don't care if we go to that mediator or another because I will find any of them equally objectionable, since I think what he's doing is wrong.
I managed to say all that calmly, but I felt shaken and sad when I got in the car right after that to go get dog food and more dinner for S14.
Just because I can face this doesn't mean it doesn't hurt, and sometimes it'll make me cry.
Then my mind was going kind of crazy with envisioning telling the kids and imagining them crying and me crying, and I remembered what 25 says, don't borrow trouble from the future. I told myself, I'm strong, I will get through and face that when it happens and not worry about it right now.
I still really don't want this, and I really don't think he's given our family a fair chance, and I don't support what he's doing. So I struggle in my mind with role playing various scenarios where we tell the kids, and each time I think I'll say something completely different. I think H will say "Your mother and I have decided" and I'll interrupt "No, you decided." OK scratch that.
Or, the kids will ask why and I'll say "I don't know but I tried everything I could," implying that their dad did not. OK scratch that.
Sometimes I have bitter words for him intended to be scathing and leave him sorry.
Sometimes I meet his new woman and laugh and say, "of course it's ok for you to have him. Please, be my guest. He's your problem now. No, scratch that.
I'm so all over the map that I realize I don't have a single way that I feel about this, and I don't have a single way to describe or explain it when the time comes for my kids. I think it's flat out wrong, cowardly, dishonorable. I think he's depressed, not thinking right, making a bad decision. I think it's pointless, unwarranted, undeserved. Do you think I'll ever get to a place where I can calmly tell my kids "Your father and I decided...and no matter what we both will always love you"?
I don't know how to get there because I want to be on record against this. I want them to know I fought for them, I want them to know I don't think it's ok. And then again, I don't want them to know that either because I don't want to hurt them more, with hatred or bad feelings for their dad.
How do I both protect my kids and resist what my H is set on doing? I know I can't stop or control him, but I don't want to make it easy for him and I don't agree that he can't help himself.
From my experience, I said some things in the very beginning of my situation that I wish I had not. No name calling or screaming about the unfairness but I did say things like "I wanted to go to counseling" or "He's the one who left."
I wish I could take that back.
Of course my sons are older and a bit more mature but it still closes a door with them, just a little.
It is so painful.
Thanks labug, that helps to know. I feel I'm being forced to be complicit in breaking up their family.
AD my W told my D when this happened. Without me knowing what she told her. But that is how she roles. Let him plan the whole speech. Let him answer their question. All u can say is that u love them and that they will be safe. The wanting to be on the record well, thats the wanting to be right. Your kids will know the truth when the time is right. We can't protect our kids from divorce. Some will do better than others but every kid will be affected from a divorce.
I am kind of accepting my stich. Making some peace with it. The not wanting to make this easy on him smells a bit like anger or wanting to get even. Let life be his teacher. You know I'm in your corner
adinva.. all the feelings you have mentioned above.. i have gone through. i felt very betrayed.. very angry.. at the MC when we talked about telling the kids, i wanted him to ensure he said.. "i decided" because i most certainly did not support his decision.
i didn't think H gave our M a fair shot.. i felt everything he was doing was so horribly wrong for our family.. for our kids.. i ran through thoughts of.. you are the one who had the PA and now i'm the one begging you to stay???
i think i just came to a point where i realized this is not who i am. early in our situation.. i read a R book and one of the exercises was to consider what was a value we had in ourselves. i remember at that time that one of the most important things to me is that i live a life full of compassion and empathy. and who i was being towards H was none of these.
i think you're incredibly beautiful and strong. our situations differ that my H doesn't stay here and perhaps that's why it's been easier for me. i don't know if i could be as kind towards my H as you have been with yours if he continued to be here everyday distancing himself.
we all do the best we can with what we've been given. the blessing of these boards is that sometimes we're given just a bit extra..
(((( ))))
Rick, I am angry. Chris, thanks for your thoughts.
I feel like, if H says I can't help how I feel and I say "yes I understand you can't help how you feel here let me schedule mediation for us," I won't have done right by me and by my kids. We deserve better. We deserve a H and dad who gives half a crap about saving this little family we created.
I've been waiting a year for some kind of wake up call to happen and it hasn't, because he spent the entire year not connecting with us, not participating with us, lying in bed with his iPad.
So, I do love him, and I believe I know him better than anyone, and I understand him better than I did before. If after my best efforts he needs to go, then he needs to go. But yeah, I'm angry about it right now.
What makes me feel a little better is knowing how far we were from what I needed, and how slim the chance that we'd ever get there. I need to be with someone who will hold me when I learn I might have cancer, not be out installing a computer for a woman. I need to be with someone who will comfort me when my uncle died and I was sitting alone crying, not make fun of me for it. I need to be with someone who will listen to how I want to be ML to, not get mad at me for being critical. I want to be with someone who is happy, not mad, to see me after work. I want to be with someone who builds me up, doesn't tear me down.
So yeah, I'm mad right now, that my H is not ever going to be that guy for me. I'm mad that I'm willing to work with what he can offer and be OK with it, and he's not.
The final message I want to give him right this moment isn't a loving one, it's a verbal kick in the pants as he heads out the door. I won't be so mad tomorrow, just having an emotional day.
I just worry that with the flip flopping that I do, I don't really know where I really stand. I don't really know what I want. I just know that I'll be ok when I get there, where ever it is.
I think you just said where you stand.
But you can see her confusion in what she said. She wants her H... or perhaps better, she wants A husband. Right now she doesn't even have that.
As far as the kids... I don't agree with Rick. Don't let him or make him do all the talking. Whether right or wrong, you're doing this together. Whether you want it or not, it's happening to the both of you.
Kids are amazingly perceptive. Your lack of input and involvement will be noted.
Plus why should he get to write the script? Just because you make him say everything doesn't mean he'll say what you want said.
Lastly... and this is oh so very, very, very hard... this isn't about blame. It can't be "Dad wants a divorce but I don't, but because he wants one we are getting divorced." Even delivered calmly that's setting your kids up to blame dad. And maybe dad deserves all the blame, but reserve that for when they're older and ask. Instead "mom and dad have decided we cannot be married anymore. Some time this happens between adults. It's not your fault and you have nothing to do with why we can't be married."
If you want to toss in you still care for each other as friends ok, but only if you mean it.
And, btw, the kids will figure out the truth pretty fast. It took my S, who's only six, about two months to figure out that my W is the driving force. Never told him this, never mentioned it. But I'm quite sure he pieced together that mom moved out, that I was very sad for a long time, and most of all that I am willing to talk to him about the divorce where my W isn't. Because while I feel guilty and sad that he is going through this pain, I don't feel the same guilt and pain my W has told me she feels because she feels she brought it on him.
We don't give our kids enough credit. They may be young, but they can sense when things are not right. They might not have said anything to you, but they notice the many nights that their dad spent away, how he's hiding out in the bedroom and withdrawing from family activities. It doesn't mean that they know anything or everything, but don't rule out that they're not as clueless as we may think.
Your kids see you every day. They see the loving, caring, engaging, fun mom you are. They can see that you're continuing to invest in your M. When the time is right and they are looking for answers, you can explain in the least blaming way you can.
AD I think acknowledging that u were angry is HUGE. I also believe that what is happening to u is part of the process. I think u are making a list of what u want but it is not clear to u yet. I've done the same. With the kids I was saying to let him start and lead and u interject when needed. I don't know if there is a right or Wrong way to tell kids that their parents are divorcing. No one wins in this instance.
Thank you guys, I really appreciate that you took a look at my words and gave me feedback.
(((Ad))), sorry this is happening. But as the vets say...this is just a step in the process. Things can still change.
I agree with Rick. Admitting you are angry is huge. I believe you will do the work to get through that anger and do the best by your kids.
We're all here for you!
So, I said, I don't care if we go to that mediator or another because I will find any of them equally objectionable, since I think what he's doing is wrong.
This is a very understandable feeling and I honestly hope that you didn’t say it to him. Because it is judgemental.
You may not agree with his actions, you may not like them, you may not want them, but they are not wrong. They are based on his feelings and we are all entitled to feel whatever it is that we feel.
Using the word wrong…was the old AD, I hope.
Telling our S that they are wrong, will simply push them away further and faster.
Sometimes I have bitter words for him intended to be scathing and leave him sorry.
Sometimes I meet his new woman and laugh and say, "of course it's ok for you to have him. Please, be my guest. He's your problem now. No, scratch that.
Scratch that, yes, you don’t want to say it. It’s ok to think it though and then let it go. Trust me on this, we have all had those vengeful thoughts. Those daydreams of saying every mean thing we possibly could to hit all those nerves within them and to punish them, as we feel they have done to us.
Let them be what they are, daydreams.
When the time comes, and it will (whether you reconcile or D) that you get to say your peace, speak from a place of grace and dignity. From the place of love that you still hold in your heart (and always will I hope) for this man. NOT from anger.
Do you think I'll ever get to a place where I can calmly tell my kids "Your father and I decided...and no matter what we both will always love you"?
Honestly, yes you will get to a place where you can talk about it calmly and you will know what to say at the time. It doesn’t mean you won’t show them your remorse, but I hope you won’t have anger to show them.
And don’t EVER use the words that you used to describe your feeling here. Again those are judgemental, critical, and suggest that we are not allowed to make our own choices, however destructive they may be without being “demonized” for them.
How do I both protect my kids and resist what my H is set on doing? I know I can't stop or control him, but I don't want to make it easy for him and I don't agree that he can't help himself.
You be honest. And believe me, this won’t be as easy for him as you think. He is still a human with feelings and he is hurting even if you don’t see it or he won’t admit it.
I feel like, if H says I can't help how I feel and I say "yes I understand you can't help how you feel here let me schedule mediation for us,"
You don’t schedule the mediation. Let him do it. He wants this, let him do the work for it.
You can’t stop him from doing it, and should not be surprised if he does or doesn’t, but you don’t have to be the one who initiates it either.
We deserve better. We deserve a H and dad who gives half a crap about saving this little family we created.
Yup.
I've been waiting a year for some kind of wake up call to happen and it hasn't, because he spent the entire year not connecting with us, not participating with us, lying in bed with his iPad.
So, I do love him, and I believe I know him better than anyone, and I understand him better than I did before. If after my best efforts he needs to go, then he needs to go. But yeah, I'm angry about it right now.
What makes me feel a little better is knowing how far we were from what I needed, and how slim the chance that we'd ever get there. I need to be with someone who will hold me when I learn I might have cancer, not be out installing a computer for a woman. I need to be with someone who will comfort me when my uncle died and I was sitting alone crying, not make fun of me for it. I need to be with someone who will listen to how I want to be ML to, not get mad at me for being critical. I want to be with someone who is happy, not mad, to see me after work. I want to be with someone who builds me up, doesn't tear me down.
So yeah, I'm mad right now, that my H is not ever going to be that guy for me. I'm mad that I'm willing to work with what he can offer and be OK with it, and he's not.
The final message I want to give him right this moment isn't a loving one, it's a verbal kick in the pants as he heads out the door. I won't be so mad tomorrow, just having an emotional day.
I hope you are as mad today as you were yesterday. I hope you haven’t stuffed those feelings just yet so that you can hold it together and present the picture perfect image…
I hope you come here and vent some more, in a place where it is appropriate, where you can get it out.
I also hope that you are beginning to acknowledge that your anger isn’t all directed at your H. I hope you are recognizing that some of your anger is also at yourself. Actually most of it, IMO.
Where have you failed? Failed your H, yourself, your kids?
What is the verbal message that you want to give to yourself right now? I am willing to bet it’s about as nice as the one you want to give your H if you are really honest with yourself.
I just worry that with the flip flopping that I do, I don't really know where I really stand. I don't really know what I want. I just know that I'll be ok when I get there, where ever it is.
What DO you want and need?
And are YOU worthy of what you want and need?
Until you believe that you are, you won’t receive it from anyone.
Because you won’t allow it. A,
Some hard words and hard questions here, for a hard situation.
They come from a place of caring and concern as well as support. I hope you know that.
To steal a line from a friend...
the only way to do it, is through it. (nickle Brookie
)
I would advance that you should script it out. Each person have their assigned role and message. It helps reduce the amount of stuff that gets made up on the fly and keeps you on message. Each have an assigned role.
Ad... I wouldn't advise just interjecting when needed. You are not a passive bystander in this. You need to say your piece and say your peace as best you can within the confines.
Lastly the message has to be all about the kids, not about you two. This is something that you two are doing but it is affecting them. Look at it through their lens. Less focus (in fact no focus is good) on the "why" and the "how" of the divorce. More on what the kids worry about:
- Where will they live?
- Where will you live? Where will dad live?
- Do I get to go to my current school?
- Do I get to stay near my friends?
- Are there major changes to my life? For example, if a child has an expensive hobby (flying for example) will there still be money to do that?
- When will they be with you?
- When will they be with dad?
- What about grandma/grandpa? Will I still see them?
- What about holidays? birthdays?
Kids are by their very nature ego-centric. They have yet to develop the capacity to see a world beyond them, though that diminishes as they grow older. You will want to tell that why and how, but those are concepts and ideas that are big and complex. Too big really and too complex for them. The major point of the conversation is to tell them what is happening, how they will be impacted, and how the two of you will work to address their needs.
If they want to know more... and they will at some point... they will ask.
There are also lots of good books out there. Books targeted at the adult giving the message as well as books for kids to read.
Lastly do research on co-parenting. That's the stance you will move to. It's tougher than it sounds because it requires both of you to put the kids and their needs first. They may be a challenge for him, and not reacting to his efforts will be a challenge for you.
My W and I scripted it out. We even rehearsed it a few times before we delivered it. I won't lie... the rehearsal was absolutely heartbreaking, but it was good. It allowed me to know where in the conversation I would become emotional and start to breakdown. I didn't want to fall apart in front of the kids when we did this. And rehearsing helped.
I will also say the actual delivery went far better than I thought it would. I had created an armageddon in my mind and it certainly wasn't that. But, I credit a lot of that to the message and our delivery of it.
Good advice, thanks.
I'm sure "Why" is one of the first questions they would ask. Why can't you stay together, why are you doing this? And that's where I have the most trouble.
The other questions, those that focus on the kids and their needs and what will happen to them, seem like they would be easier to answer without emotion getting in the way of communication.
Do they really not ask why in that first conversation? Or did you focus them back on them, maybe saying "we can't explain why but what's important is for you to know...."?