Re: Recently Seperated Part 11 - DivorceBusting.com

Part 10:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2244505&#Post2244505

Does anyone have an opinion on my W throwing the brakes on the L stuff. I mean if you could have heard the conversations with the mediator. Read the emails and heard the conversations with me.
I truly was expecting papers this week. I know the old rule believe 1/2 etc.. But man to me this was it.

Also. I think I'm just going to renew my lease somewhere else for 1 year with no discussions with a W. The new place is much better for me and the kids to start living well say a normal life. Not so tiny and make shift etc. I can assume that R with W is not in the picture. Continue to work on myself and the new place will give me some security and believe it or not some happiness.

Sorry, Net, I posted in your old thread. I'm just reposting it here.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: netmaster

No actually 90% of the time I get anxious and think my W is doing this and/or that and I come to discover it ends up being the exact opposite.

For example. She had penciled a name on the calendar and I thought it was appt for L. It ended up being a meet up with a friend.

I need to address this stuff.

I'm also trying to not be so hard on myself on some of this stuff. I've come to realize that my sitch in itself is extremely stressful. I miss my kids extremely. I miss family life etc.

Thx Dory

Net, I believe you. I can only imagine the stress you're under. I was fortunate enough to do CBT a long time ago so lucky for me, I'm not nearly as wound up like I could be.

Practicing self compassion can go a long way. When you know better, you do better, right? It's our mistakes that make us human. I struggle with it myself quite a bit. I can't count the number of times I've said something in therapy & my T has said, "And what would you say to a friend who just said that?" It's a good question to ask yourself when falling into the trap of beating yourself up over something.

Anxiety is a good indicator of when's a good time to challenge your thinking. When it happens, slow down and ask yourself if there are any other possible explainations.

Such as seeing your wife's calendar. I'll use this as an example since you brought it up. You assumed and jumped to the conclusion that it was a L's appt, which fueled your anxiety. And you held on to that anxiety for quite a while, I remember it . And you felt unnecessarily terrible as a result.

It's much simpler and easier on your emotional state of wellbeing to have recognized the anxiety you were feeling and questioned where it was coming from: "What do I know about this appointment on her calendar?" And the reality being, you knew nothing about it or who this person is. So, it's reasonable to to tell yourself, "I don't have enough information to draw any conclusions."

Telling yourself that you don't have enough information to go on leaves you in a far better state of mind than jumping to conclusions/making assumptions and perpetuating anxiety.

It's perfectly ok to say I don't know. It's a lot better on the psyche to remain in blissful ignorance than to draw your own conclusions on incomplete information.

Dory everything you say makes perfect sense. I'm aware of my problem and anxiety. Honestly don't ever remember having this much anxiety until my W dropped the D bomb on me. I never paid attention to my surroundings as much until this happened. Then she dropped D on me and I started going into fix it mode (which we all know translates to push off cliff mode) I started become so aware of her and everything and my anxiety spiraled out of control.

Now being separated in LIMBO mode is the most stressful thing I've experienced. It fuels my stupid anxiety.

I understand why I do the things I do. Its to solve my temporary anxiety. For example when i was snooping in her email way back in the day it was to answer my own fears good or bad. Now I get it.

Or when I call her MIL its to answer my own fears good or bad. Its a temp fix for my anxiety which the long run makes it worst.

When I lived at home and my W was level and fun I have no anxiety. My trigger that I notice is when she becomes miserable and withdrawn my anxiety spikes.

so, what are you going to do about the "triggers"?

Scared I emailed my counselor and asked to work specifically on my triggers. mantras. thought patterns, not reacting etc

Originally Posted By: netmaster

My trigger that I notice is when she becomes miserable and withdrawn my anxiety spikes.

Because you're reacting rather than responding.

When we're in reactive mode, we're usually allowing our unconscious to drive our behaviour/thoughts/actions. Which can lead to a lot of trouble because it's not deliberate.

When we choose to respond rather than react, we take time to make a deliberate effort to slow down and think through how to proceed.

There's a quote by Wayne Dyer you might find helpful,

"How others treat you is their karma. How you react is yours."

Another thing to consider are boundaries. Just because another person is miserable does not have to have any effect on you or how you feel unless you allow it.

good for you! it's not easy but we can control ourselves. in fact, we are the only ones we can control so at least it's just ONE person we have to work on!

My counselor loves Wayne D. All he watches

Great couple of posts Dory!

I sometimes blur detachment with moving on. I really struggle with this. I fear renewing my lease for a year will show w I'm moving on but this place better for me long term and kids too. I really blur and confuse the 2

Invited over for mothers day what to do

My W told our neighbors the reason why she has not started divorce and/or obtained a lawyer was because I didn't want the cost of divorce. I never said that . So odd .only thing I said was don't wipe me out

Well I went to Mothers day cookout. I had fun. Little but positive interactions with wife. Just joked a bit. Basically played with kids and cooked on grill the whole time. Then said good night.

Are you ready for the next "cycle" this time?

As ready as I ever can be. It will be my first opportunity to not react

Definition of insanity doing the same things over and over and expecting different results. KD can clearly see the pattern in my relationship. I actually see it too. This weekend the "storm" is due and we have a TON of family activities. So I'm going to prepare myself for the "storm". Will not feed into it that is for sure.

worked on triggers today with C. Deep breathing for in the moment anxiety episodes. Writing down triggers that generate my anxious thoughts.

I know KD going to yell at me for this. But I always wondered why WAW won't pull trigger on D. She hasn't gotten a L since mediator. She tells neighbor Sat morning she wants a L and makes up some expense excuse. Same day she goes fishing with me and kids and invites me over for dinner after and then invites me Sun for Mothers Day. If I pursue one ounce she says all those things she does is just for the kids. (kids would not have missed me at mothers day)

Is WAW just confused or are WAW experts at stringing LBS along. Being in limbo is what (I) let generate 1/2 my anxiety. Notice I'm saying I LET. I know its just me letting my thoughts run wild. I've learned that today in counselor.

I do feel if me and W did counseling we could live under 1 roof from the things I've learned. I truly feel that way. Unfortunately she does not.

anyways hamster wheel spinning and greased up

"I've learned that today in counselor."

You should have learned that 4 months ago when everyone was telling you that.

"anyways hamster wheel spinning and greased up"

You know it's easy to get off that wheel. You just don't want to.

lol, no NM... no 2x4s for you from me this time...

and yay for you! A breakthrough! And I mean that sincerely, you are letting as opposed to your W making you...

love it...!

Now, your questions are very valid.

Take a look at how MWD describes a WAW. Basically, the WAS hits some point where they choose to exit the M and move on. Reasons are irrelevant for this discussion.

IF left to their own designs, the WAS will continue and do their best to not rock the boat and to get all their ducks in a row. They are waiting... making sure that EVERYTHING is PERFECT before they drop the bomb and exit.

They expect fallout, but they have set things up so that while they understand and empathize (take note on that, it is VERY important) with the LBS... their mind is made up and they will do their best to keep things civil...

So in the WAS' perfect world, the ducks are in a row, the stage is set, the deed is done... and away they go...

Yes, they may have second thoughts in the future, but they've spent possibly YEARS setting all this up...

Now, the second possibility is that something happens mid way through the plan... and the WAS gets busted...

You can imagine how that might feel... let's say you were setting up a surprise party for someone. And they found out... it wouldn't feel so good having gone through all that covert effort and not having the benefit of the "joyous" surprise at the end. Consider... the WAS may actually be setting things up in the hope that the LBS will actually agree and be happy and amicable about the whole thing...

Now depending on where they are when they get "caught", they may go into a panic and hit the "fight" button... all hell breaks loose and they are going to fight tooth and nail because their wounds are still fresh or raw...

During this time, though... the "rational" mind (which we presume that while their reasons may not make sense to us, those reasons are probably logical and we could understand them) would say that they will be in pain and will flip flop, but they will convey their reasons and will continue to move forward with what they planned... and maybe... just maybe... the LBS can make changes in themselves so that the WAS has a change of heart and believes that things could actually work out...

The MLCer... not so much...

MLCers are in flight mode... they have no real plan... they just want out... something hurts inside them and the only thing they can think of is to escape, because they think that WE are the cause of their pain, or their job is, or the colour of their car or perhaps it's because it's the year of the water dragon so change is important and that means getting out of the M...

But...

They have no plans... So for them, it might just be getting away... pretend like none of it happened... maybe they got the seed planted that D is the right thing, so they rush to D... or maybe they think that an OP is something they need, so they get one... but hide it, because somehow, deep down, the realize that might be wrong or might cause some sort of problem legally, even though most of north america is no fault... or they actually get an OP and put it out in the open because somehow they "don't feel M" and it's OK for a M person to get a new lay and carry on with them in all the same social circles that only months before, they were with you at...

And the kicker... the MLCer has not just detached from the LBS... they have detached from themselves to a large degree... their "empathy chip" breaks and while they appear to empathize with others, that may show up more as sympathy (the idea that if your friend is hurt, you grab the biggest stick and go beat on the perp... even if your friend did not ask you to and perhaps your friend is the one who should not have called that big biker dude a pr1ck)... any empathy/sympathy the MLCer might appear to have for the LBS will actually be in the form of manipulation in order to get something that they want... without at all considering the effects that might have on the kids... or the financial well being of anyone involved... etc, etc... oh... and then there's the blame and projection... everything bad or remotely uncomfortable in their lives is the result of and caused by some external source... and everything good in their lives is the result of them being so darned AWESOME...!

So here you go, NM...

Look, you may come to the conclusion that your W is MLC... but you could very well be right that there is some sort of hormonal thing happening with your W and she is not at all "confused" but rather she just doesn't connect her issues with some cycle or pattern...

The really, really important thing to understand is...

the work is the same... regardless...

and there is no way to know that your W is MLC until she goes THROUGH it... otherwise, she could just be a WAS in panic mode...

No matter what, unless you do the work to become a man that only a fool would leave... the end result will be the same...

you will be D...

The goal of DB is to save ourselves...

If we happen to save our D as a result...

cool...

Damn KD. Thx for that post. It is quite scary actually. I do feel my wife is in MLC mode and definitely a "hormone" piece which I truly believe is triggered from stress and her inability to handle stress that well.

Mr. B. I understand what you're saying but I'm sorting out a lot of anger, anxiety, insecurity issues stemming from 10 years of childhood abuse ages 2-12. I'm slowly getting there but mix this toxic situation in and lack of work (I own my own company and it's slow....) makes a hamster go crazy. In the meantime I have my resume back out there and hope to land a day job to keep me busy and structured.

I also have a big decision coming up on the 24th. I have a much nice place available to me and it would be a year lease. I don't see me moving home at all and after reading KD's post I have a better understanding why my W is acting nice and civil.

Certainly not encouraging and my reactions to her hormonal outburst make her say things like "you'll never change" etc.. Even though she slamming me with electric caddle prod.

Anyways thx Kd and Mr. B. I'm going to get in a position where I don't react to her nonsense. The next 10 days will unfold a new chapter in my life I believe.

Hamster

Also if W is MLC'r. What do I do. Detach. Expect OM and or a divorce and move on. It almost sounds like there is little or no hope with MLC'r for R.

She has said to me several times. "I just want out" I'm not happy, I don't hate you, "I just want out"

You just did it again. Why do you keep asking questions that only she knows or doesn't know the answer to? You can't predict crazy.

What Bond said ^^^^^^^

NM, the only difference if it's MLC is that it takes longer for them to POSSIBLY change their mind...

Again, if you continue to think about her... then you are doomed to D, either way...

What you CAN do is work on not reacting in what you THINK is her cycle and pattern... to see that it is NOT YOU that is causing that cycle and pattern...

remove yourself from the equation and the stones will fall where they will... interfere with the thrown stones and the reading will be off...

Thx B and Kd. This is one of the toughest things I've faced. She has told me she feels 80% better since I've been gone. (health wise) she was a mess. Her stress went way down and feels great. She doesn't want to go back to the toxic r we had and neither do. We have talked a bit about it. Just not much

I know this is going to sound crazy. I'm getting stir crazy in this apartment. I want to move home badly. I miss seeing my kids everyday. I actually hate being a part time father. I just want to move my butt home

KD-Wow this is an awesome explanation of MLC and the pattern it seems like the exact behaviors she has followed. Still here to save myself

NM-I know the feeling your having about being stir crazy in your place and missing your family/part time dad. Be strong NM, I have experience all those same thoughts and feelings. I have become the best father I have ever been going it alone. I would obviously rather kept my marriage but I must save myself and if the marriage is salvageable according to the my spouse then so be it. It is tough but you need to make peace with it. I know its not easy I'm working on it myself day by day getting better and better. Keep busy and keep in contact with people to fill your time.

Listen to KD, Bond, and others here. They will steer you straight. I can't get anyone to respond on my stitch anymore

?

Today I am actively looking for a 9-5 job. This is for ME. I need to get back out there and be busy. I'm going to give up my business for awhile. Fortunately for me my business is online and I can do it at night too if need be. But right now it just isn't cutting it with my sitch. I also feel it has partly contributed to the demise of my M.

KD what did you mean by surprise here

"You can imagine how that might feel... let's say you were setting up a surprise party for someone. And they found out... it wouldn't feel so good having gone through all that covert effort and not having the benefit of the "joyous" surprise at the end. Consider... the WAS may actually be setting things up in the hope that the LBS will actually agree and be happy and amicable about the whole thing..."

It seems fairly common that a WAS is hoping for the most amicable split. In many cases, it appears that what ever reasons the WAS decides are worth D over, they still will feel guilt...

So as they plan their exit strategy (in a way that benefits them, based on the level of offence they feel has been their plight), they are working out how to "play" the bomb drop, so there is the least amount of emotional damage for all involved.

That would be what I meant by the WAS planning for a "joyous" surprise... notice the word joyous in quotes, as they are certainly aware that there will be nothing joyous about it...

Hope that makes sense for you....

So the thing I struggle with and why your post made so much sense is this. If the roles were reversed and I wanted a D I would make a phone call, get a L, and serve her papers. Takes 5 minutes.

My confusion really why isn't she doing this. Is it possible she is having second thoughts on the whole process. That she acts only on the emotions she is currently feeling. 5 days goes by and she thinks what am I doing.

Is it possible she may tell neighbors one thing. Like she did the other day. I want a L but the costs etc.. Then same night invite me over to eat for pizza and next day invite me over for mothers day bbq. She may tell the neighbor this to get her off her back.

I guess Mr. B is right. Stop trying to figure out craziness.

I have the lease to the new place in my inbox. I'm going to take the place. It is perfect spot for me and kids. Plus bigger. 1800 sq feet compared to 690. Condo. It is a year lease but I like have the insurance of having the place. I would hate to lose the place and in 4 days get served papers etc..

I figure it this way. The only way I could move back home is if she was willing to work on M with me. She shows no signs of this so I have to prepare for the worse and hope for the best. The lease could be broken.

So I do think it is a good step to get a nice job (keep hamster busy during day) and have a nicer place.

Yes "joyous" surprise makes sense. She always said that she wants things to be amicable. That is why she invites me over to eat and to bbq's. she states "FOR THE KIDS ONLY". the 2 times we were hanging out more I pursued her. Remember I tried to get laid once and the other time I hugged her. That is when she said "see I can't be nice to you because you interpret it as us getting back together.

So I've learned from that. Even this weekend hanging out. I had zero expectations. I will tell you this. That night leaving BBQ was very tough on me emotionally. Usually I would load up the car and take family home. This time I had to say goodbye to everyone and leave.

KD. I swear to god I feel I could only detach by using some OW. Am I crazy for thinking that???? I feel like that would be the only way for me to ever fully detach. It almost makes me sick thinking about it. The scary part is that my W is so detached nothing I do even bothers her. I swear I could show up to the house with 2 women 1 in each arm and she wouldn't even notice lol

Originally Posted By: netmaster

So the thing I struggle with and why your post made so much sense is this. If the roles were reversed and I wanted a D I would make a phone call, get a L, and serve her papers. Takes 5 minutes.

I honestly have to say that while no one can tell me that my W is MLC (because as mentioned, one really can't be 100% sure until they are through, and even then... ???), and I did have a couple good members tell me that it was quite likely, it was 25's comments to me that struck me the most.

+ The work is the same.
+ Would it make a difference to you.

One thing does not make someone MLC, but I will agree with you... Unfortunately I have not had a WAS tell me yet that they waffled at filing... that is, if they were absolutely determined to D.

While I have to say that I have seem progress in you, that it is still an uphill battle and long distance for you. So I say completely tongue in cheek... it's unlikely that your W is waffling on the D because she has seen remarkable, positive change in you...

That being said, do not stop or slow down on the work you are doing for yourself. The benefits will be tremendous in all aspects of your life and IF your W is MLC, she still will notice the changes. And MLC or WAS, that is a good thing... because it MIGHT lead to their change of heart.

Originally Posted By: netmaster

KD. I swear to god I feel I could only detach by using some OW. Am I crazy for thinking that????

No, NM. It is not "crazy" thinking, if in that context our idea of what crazy is, is similar.

Most people, while they may enjoy sleeping alone, either by habit or by preference... like a warm body to be with, now and then... sometimes more now than then...

Nothing good comes out of an OP... Unless you are appropriately detached, have done a good portion of the work to help yourself, and you are truly done and ready to move on with someone new.

Because you cannot undo something like that. Even if your W never knew, YOU would... and you would probably feel extremely guilty if you and your W reconciled.

Best thing to do about those thoughts is the same as you are to do with your W...

GAL so you don't have time to think about them... you're too busy enjoying everything else that is non-destructive, in life...

When my wife gets in her mood and says "I want a divorce and I want out of this marriage" my goal is to no react or engage . Is there a simple non reactive response I could say to her.

Like "sorry you feel that way and dismiss myself"

You want to indicate empathy and you are thinking in the right line. Funny thing about language is almost every word in the dictionary is either directly or in a specific context, subject to (mis)interpretation.

Would you really be sorry that your W would feel a certain way?

Would you be saying that you somehow feel responsible, so you are apologizing to her?

It is often suggested by members on this site to use the phrase:

+ "I understand how you feel that way about (insert topic)."

What you are saying is that you appreciate the reality that she may have a different perspective of something than you do. Nothing more, nothing less. It IS sincere because while she may say that your don't understand HOW she feels (which COULD be correct), that is NOT what you are saying because... well, because you DON'T feel what she is feeling. It might be the same as saying "I agree to disagree", but that statement is more aggressive and really indicates that you disagree so in some ways is saying that you think her opinion or feeling are somehow wrong...

You could stop right there. You do not have to dismiss yourself unless you feel yourself tensing up, suggesting that you may be prone to react soon. Get yourself away BEFORE you react. Have SOMETHING to do that you COULD do randomly, at any given time. That way, you won't be stuck with excusing yourself with something that could be a lie. Yes, it could be needing to go do laundry... or it could be going to the gym... don't use work as an excuse, because that is possibly one of the things that your W did not like, that you buried yourself in work to avoid her. Try to make it FUN stuff... or even things that your think might be interesting to her (but ONLY if it is interesting for you and something you want to do)...

IF you DO believe that it is some offence by you that might have been inappropriate, then by all means, apologize. If that is the case, then apologize ONCE and let it go. No one who is sincere in an apologize should need to apologize more than once. The apology should be sincere and then the offending individual should SHOW that they are sincere by not doing it again or "fixing" what ever behaviour was "broken".

Practice this stuff, NM... because you most likely WILL mess this up initially... but as time goes by and you practice this more and more (and you can use this with ANYONE, so opportunities to practice should be available to you), you will get better at it...

Originally Posted By: netmaster

When my wife gets in her mood and says "I want a divorce and I want out of this marriage" my goal is to no react or engage . Is there a simple non reactive response I could say to her.

How is this for detached: "That must be really hard for you." I think you get a lot of points for not reacting to this. Let W see you in control of yourself and genuinely sympathetic to her. I think you're right that she does have second thoughts and this is not an easy decision for her. She might say she has made her mind up, but she probably has to convince herself of that on a regular basis. She probably feels guilty.

Her choice and actions hurt you and your kids, so anger and resentment are the obvious reactions. Your sitch probably won't get better if you can't move past anger and emotional reactions and muster some genuine compassion for her when she says those sorts of things.

Nota bene: I stink at divorce busting. I make my own sitch worse on a regular basis.

My advice is suspect. What do you veterans think?

KD beat me to it.

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

It is often suggested by members on this site to use the phrase:

+ "I understand how you feel that way about (insert topic)."

I think that sounds like great advice. I wonder if in this specific context it might make more sense to just say, "I understand how you feel that way." rather than "I understand ho you feel that way about our marriage"

Also, I wonder if "I understand how you feel that way. That must be very hard for you." might be a powerful combo. If you are detached enough to say that earnestly and calm enough to hear what happens next, those words might put her at ease to open up a little.

She might just respond to that with some of her genuine feelings which she probably won't talk about with you directly most of the time because she just doesn't feel safe doing so when you are so upset. At least, that's how my WAS is.

Quote:

Practice this stuff, NM... because you most likely WILL mess this up initially... but as time goes by and you practice this more and more (and you can use this with ANYONE, so opportunities to practice should be available to you), you will get better at it...

I strongly agree with this. Rehearse the response and figure out what you are going to do to get a break from the situation if you need to calm down.

I've been reading "High Conflict Couple". It suggests that no one ever questions you when you say you have to go to the bathroom. Close the door. Get some space. Calm down. At that point, it's up to you whether you choose to go back into the same room as your wife. If you choose to do so, at least you will be more in control of your responses.

This probably isn't a good idea, but it is something I would try with my WAS:
"I understand how you feel that way." -> bathroom -> "You know, that must be really hard on you." "What?" "Having to make that sort of decision." My wife has opened up to me after exchanges like that.

The only catch is, I don't think he does understand how she feels about it.

And I don't mean that about just this sitch. I might be able to say to my H when he said I was controlling and it hurt him: "I understand that I hurt you by being controlling" because I'm a controlling fixer (in recovery) and I admit that. It's a fact.

But about getting a divorce after a long marriage without working at it, I don't understand that. I'm getting to acceptance of that but I may never understand it beyond it was his choice.

It's dangerous to say, "I understand how you feel" because there is no way we can truly understand how another feels. It negates the other's experience and feelings.

The more accurate response might be simply, "I understand that you want a divorce."

Leave the feelings out of it.

Originally Posted By: labug

The only catch is, I don't think he does understand how she feels about it.

That's why the specific wording. "I understand how you feel that way." Not "I understand how you feel."

Also, if she happens to feel safer about opening up, he might start to better understand [i]how[/] she feels.

I guess what's throwing me is the "how you feel" in the middle.

semantics, of course...

Which is how it shows up that everything is up for interpretation.

"I understand how" : I realize that people have differing opinions so in that way, I understand that your opinion and feeling can be different than mine

"you feel about" : I honour and appreciate those are your feeling, not mine

"(insert topic)" : In order to ensure we are on the same page, the specific topic I feel we are discussing is such. In other words, I am showing you that I am listening to you about the specific topics you believe are important

oh yeah... and realizing in advance that the phrase may be misinterpreted...

which is why a response of "You DO NOT know HOW I fell" is:

+ "Yes, that is correct. I do appreciate that our opinions differ."

Originally Posted By: netmaster

I know this is going to sound crazy. I'm getting stir crazy in this apartment. I want to move home badly. I miss seeing my kids everyday. I actually hate being a part time father. I just want to move my butt home

Not crazy. I very much understand that. I get so upset that my wife has no idea what it is like to spend nights away from the kids. She sees them every day no matter what. I get resentful. Once, I got fed up. I had had enough. I moved back in against her wishes. Biggest mistake. That drove her to file D because she felt that I would never give her space.

She assumed that I thought that we could go back to being a couple if I just moved home. That wasn't it at all. NM, you know how hard it is to be away from your family like that. It's a big adjustment and really very painful. If she had said to me the words, "I want to file for divorce because I think you'll never give me the space I need.", I would have found myself a lease somewhere.

Now, we have a D in the works, and I am strongly considering moving back home again. I hope it's not a giant mistake again.

Quote:

Thx B and Kd. This is one of the toughest things I've faced. She has told me she feels 80% better since I've been gone. (health wise) she was a mess. Her stress went way down and feels great. She doesn't want to go back to the toxic r we had and neither do. We have talked a bit about it. Just not much

This is what my WAS was feeling but not telling me when I was out. Well, I could see that her health was doing better. She said the smae thing about not wanting to go back to the toxic R.

Quote:

Today I am actively looking for a 9-5 job. This is for ME. I need to get back out there and be busy. I'm going to give up my business for awhile. Fortunately for me my business is online and I can do it at night too if need be. But right now it just isn't cutting it with my sitch. I also feel it has partly contributed to the demise of my M.

Man, are we on the same page. I was a freelance programmer for several years. Being inconsistent with billing clients or getting paid was one of the biggest stressors in my marriage. After I got the bomb from W, I wanted her to say, "I need you to get a 9-5", because if she didn't say it, I sure as hell wasn't going to do it on my own. Why give up being your own boss?

Totally backfired. The depression after the bomb really got in the way of my work and I completely emptied my bank account before I finally got that 9-5. Things are easier now.

Quote:

So I've learned from that. Even this weekend hanging out. I had zero expectations. I will tell you this. That night leaving BBQ was very tough on me emotionally. Usually I would load up the car and take family home. This time I had to say goodbye to everyone and leave.

Yes. I know the pain. My wife hanging out with *our* friends at the house, like we have always done, and leaving because it was my time to go. Humiliating. It really stings. I eventually got used to it, but there were nights it hurt so much to close the back door and lock it behind me as I left the house.

The only thing worse than locking the door from the outside at 9:30 at night was if my wife was there and she locked it instead. That hurts. I never let that happen if I can avoid it.

Quote:

KD. I swear to god I feel I could only detach by using some OW. Am I crazy for thinking that???? I feel like that would be the only way for me to ever fully detach. It almost makes me sick thinking about it. The scary part is that my W is so detached nothing I do even bothers her. I swear I could show up to the house with 2 women 1 in each arm and she wouldn't even notice lol

Whoa! Slow down!

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

Most people, while they may enjoy sleeping alone, either by habit or by preference... like a warm body to be with, now and then... sometimes more now than then...

Nothing good comes out of an OP... Unless you are appropriately detached, have done a good portion of the work to help yourself, and you are truly done and ready to move on with someone new.

Because you cannot undo something like that. Even if your W never knew, YOU would... and you would probably feel extremely guilty if you and your W reconciled.

I completely agree with KD here. Don't do an OW to hurt your W. You'll hurt yourself and you will not be able to take it back. I've done 11 months of celibacy at this point, and I'm ready to sign up for another 6. You can do it.

oh darn, no edit:

"you feel that way about" : I honour and appreciate those are your feelings, not mine.

I specifically put inflection on "that way" because it keeps the feelings on the sender, not the receiver. In other words, it is an offer to indicate that the receiver is not attempting to own or understand the feelings of the sender, but rather validating that the sender has "those" feelings... what ever they might be...

It is semantics but that's language, it's how we communicate. Without semantics, language has no meaning.

I think your last iteration is the best, KD.

Wow thanks for all the advice. I think I need to digest all the various forms. Not sure I know what the best answer is. I'm hoping she doesn't even say that again.

AlwaysTrying. I wouldn't never force myself home. I would ask to move back home and do spare room etc. But if she said no I would get a long term lease.

I had my first interview today for a 9-5 job. I think landing a day job right now is my best interest married, separated, and/or divorced.

My W is still all over the place. She tells neighbors she wants L. Has me over etc. 2 days later tells grammy that she wants to work things out etc..

I own an internet marketing company which can be very lucrative but requires focus and time. 2 things I'm not able to do very effectively right now. 9/5 which is going to be painful reporting to someone but I feel my best option

Originally Posted By: netmaster

I own an internet marketing company which can be very lucrative but requires focus and time. 2 things I'm not able to do very effectively right now. 9/5 which is going to be painful reporting to someone but I feel my best option

Yep. Same with freelance web app development. I found I couldn't do it well at all in the midst of all the turmoil. The 9-5 kills a little bit of my pride, but it's for the best.

I think your last iteration is the best, KD.

What was the final interation ?

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

oh darn, no edit:

"you feel that way about" : I honour and appreciate those are your feelings, not mine.

I specifically put inflection on "that way" because it keeps the feelings on the sender, not the receiver. In other words, it is an offer to indicate that the receiver is not attempting to own or understand the feelings of the sender, but rather validating that the sender has "those" feelings... what ever they might be...

This one.

I think it is with the inflection, so if done in writing one would need to use a format that allows for it:

"I understand how you feel that way about (insert topic)."

Which, if responded to with a "You do NOT know HOW I feel", is followed up with:

+ "Yes, that is correct. I do appreciate that our opinions differ."

I know some would say that is over analyzing it, but in all fairness to NM, I believe he needs to approach and process it this way for it to sink in.

busy weekend with family wish me luck, strength, courage, and a sealed mouth

Wife started complaining of headache. I grabbed kids and told her to have a good night. She bought me cologne cuz she didn't like the way mine smells (sensitive to smells after 2nd child) We spent a few hours together.

Ya know, I wonder if the WAS's even realize the mixed signals they send out...

Seriously Net, the cologne thing baffles me. I mean, if she wants nothing to do with you, then what does it matter to her if your cologne is appealing?

I'd take it as a positive sign.

Good luck this weekend! And I mean this in the nicest way possible: keep your yap shut!

Cologne was for her only. Sensitive to smells so I didn't get to excited. Last night she was flirting with me via txt and almost came over. But then said "I'm not ready yet" whatever that means

I don't know if I agree, Net. Of course you know your W best but from a woman's perspective I see it differently.

I completely understand the sensitivity to smells thing. I had wicked bad morning, noon and night sickness when I was expecting D12 and still to this day some things will turn my stomach. Usually cooking smells, though.

But cologne is a personal item. I just think about it's purpose - to attract & be noticed. If I found the cologne of a man I had no romantic investment in offensive, say a coworker or my brother, I would simply explain my sensitivity to it and ask them to refrain from wearing it around me. I certainly wouldn't be making a point of going out and buying them a scent I found pleasing. Let me put it to you this way: Let's say a number of years ago, when you and your W were happily M, your W came home with a bottle of Dolce & Gabbana and said it was for the guy in the next cubicle in her office, wouldn't you have a bit of a WTH reaction?

I can only speak of my own experience and I can say with absolute certainty that if I had bought cologne for someone other than my H, he would be extremely suspicious of my motivations. And I'd think he'd have very good reason to be.

Just my $0.02.

Dory what does it mean when WAs says they are not ready yet to come over for u know what. That happened last night through flirting txt

It means she's not ready to have sex with you.

Who knows, it could be for any number of reasons. It could be something as simple as that she's just not in the mood, it could be that she fears resuming a sexual relationship at this point would just complicate matters even further.

It's probably best not to mind read though. Just take it at face value.

I think the 'yet' is meaningful. She's either thinking about it or stringing you along. Still better not to mindread.

She is the master of stringing

And then she said another night. Then I said ok good night. She replies back you can't be mad at me.

Master of mind games

Sounds like you should ignore her and ignore any possible meaning of her texts. Why let your emotions get pulled around on her whims?

Well KD and company. I'm moving home. We had a long discussion last night. We are both scared as hell

Technically, I am not here posting today...

~~~~~

NM, just be careful, OK? You both are likely operating out of fear in both directions...

Fear of splitting and being alone and all that entails...

And fear of getting back into the same ol', same ol' in staying together etc...

What ever you have picked up so far on YOUR part of the journey, please do not stop working on that...

give her space... BEFORE you know she needs it...

keep GALing... in a healthy way ...

keep fixing what ever needs to be fixed and become an even better man... not just one that your W would be a fool to leave... but one that you would be a fool to stop being...

one that lives a complete and fulfilled life... with someone... or worst case... with just yourself...

KD I'm scared to death. She doesnt' want to do MC and I sort of don't blame her brings up old wounds. My plan is to GAL, GAL, and GAL some more. actually taking off for a few days now b4 I move back in.

I'm going to keep my card schedule going etc..

Originally Posted By: netmaster

I'm moving home. We had a long discussion last night. We are both scared as hell

Just like that? You're moving back in? I'd be scared as hell too!

Do you have a plan other than "Honey, I'm home?"

Originally Posted By: netmaster

KD I'm scared to death. She doesnt' want to do MC and I sort of don't blame her brings up old wounds. My plan is to GAL, GAL, and GAL some more. actually taking off for a few days now b4 I move back in.

I'm going to keep my card schedule going etc..

In the absence of MC, what are you two going to do to get your marriage back on track? I don't mean to sound harsh, but it was not but a few short weeks ago that were the evil incarnate as far as your W was concerned. What is going to happen when that comes up again?

Have you considered maybe a joint session with a DB counselor? That maybe something worthwhile considering as an alternative to MC.

I wish you all the best, Net. Stay off the habitrail, keep your head on straight and your emotions in check.

We talked about a plan together 2thepoint. I do not disagree with u at all. I think me giving her space and doing Gal will help. Non reactive. Mostly me being able to handle shifts.

I'm still going to goto ee and work on me.

How did it get to that point of you moving back in? I thought she hated your guts? Does this mean she wants to try to R?

Mr. B I have no FN clue. We hung out for family stuff. She started joking like old times. By the end of the weekend we we were rolling around. Today she put her rings back on.

I'm telling you man put the "coo coo" back in the clock.

3 weeks ago I was in a lawyers office. You don't think I'm proceeding with caution.

6 weeks ago she took her rings off, told me to date other women.

I've been here before. only difference I didn't know about GAL, 180's, and trying to not react to her hormonal emotional outbursts.

Well this is my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.

Don't move back in. At least not yet. I would suggest telling her that while you are not worried about your commitment to get things working, you definitely want to find out what went wrong the first time so that you have a happier and stronger marriage and life together than ever.

In order to do that, suggest C or a program like DB counseling or Retrouvaille. Whatever you choose, tell her that the two of you will be doing it together hand in hand. No blaming or fault. And that it takes two to get it to work and to get rid of the fears and insecurities.

If she balks at that, then tell her that you are not willing to move back in.

bond-

that is spot on

net-

good luck. keep moving forward. obviously its working!

Yup. I am going to suggest that to her. This one is more Christian based:

http://www.familylife.com/events

Look up Joe Beam. He's supposed to be really good and has techniques very similar to DB.

So what's the latest?

Wow, Net.

I'm away from the boards for a few days and look at what happens.

Ummm, details please!

Please, please, please proceed with extreme caution!

I know it's not something you want to hear but I've got to agree with Mr. Bond. I'm not sure if you moving back home right now is a good idea. I can't help but worry that you're stepping into a snake pit of sorts. Things between you and your W have yet to stabilize and both of you are still clearly holding onto a lot of resentment and hostility towards one another. It's a dangerous mix. I guess my apprehension is that since none of this is resolved that it will inevitably explode in your face, making it not only devistating for you but also very confusing for your kids.

Please be careful, Net. I don't want to see you get hurt anymore than you already have been.

I really do hope I'm wrong.

What does your C say about this?

Net, check in. Let us know how you're doing...

Ok its been 5 weeks since I've lived at home. It is very strange. My wife is really trying. The difficult part for me is we have NOT talked about anything. I've moved back home and we just starting to carry on life as is.

It has been ok. I really want to talk to her more about how she thinks things are going. I do her initial motivation for having me back home was for the kids. I'm hoping that will not be the long term factor because we both know that won't work.

Sorry I fell off the face of the planet but all of this is a huge toll on me.

I would say overall things have been ok but I don't know to start discussions with her on stuff

Net,

I am about 4 months ahead of you. I am kinda in the same boat about how to talk to my W at times.

What do you want to talk to her about? About the status of things I mean clearly she's in the house to so she's not blind as to what's going on.

You haven't given a lot of detail about what life @ home is like. Are you sleeping the same bed? are you intimate? in what ways? how does she treat you? do you spend time alone together?

From there you can base on what you want to talk about.

My W and I had a couple conversations about this. She always says this about starting conversations "You just have to." To my W, these conversations are also about rebuilding intimacy.

If you do bring things up, I'd be positive. I'd try to pick good times to talk - when you are both running out the door, or she is stressed or the kids are running around - are clearly not good times.

maybe you could started with a quick comment like "Hey, I just wanted to......" then leave it at that. Make it short to the point. if you want something from her be clear and direct. Tell you you don't want an answer right away, but to think on it.

just some thoughts.

We do sleep in the same bed and yes we are intimate. We have 2 kids ages 3 and 6 that tend to end up in our bed a lot. So on those nights I sleep in a different room.

I guess just curious if she is happy the way things are going. I know when i first initially moved back she felt uneasy and said she felt pressured to do it for the kids, her mother, and grandparent.

Even though we are intimate and things on the outside appear to be going great (and I sincerely mean this) my wife is the master of masking stuff.

NM, maybe you might get value out of that book about how to better your M without talking about it. Not sure the exact title nor whether that reference is within the TOS here.

You may want to talk about it and maybe she doesn't. And maybe she does but does not know how to ask.

Perhaps going somewhere, just the two of you, a day trip or something, nothing romantic. And just talk about how you feel about the direction of the M. Share your positive thoughts, specifically. She may respond in kind.

Thx KD. Ill look into that book at Barnes. My W has stated to some relatives that she had me back home for the "Kids" sake and that really hurt. I say this because the last 6 weeks we have been getting along great. Joking, intimate, lots of joking actually. Then to hear that just stung hard and she even made a comment about "getting the balls to leave me" one day.

My counselor said she might be saving face a little now. That helped. In other words she has told everyone and their mother that she is D'ing me and then last second she decided not to. So my C thinks it maybe a way for her to save face etc..

I do think overall things are going well. I'm still up against locked laptops, phones etc. So certainly no where I want to be in a trusting open relationship with my W.

Net,

She may have initially thought that, but it doesn't mean that she is always going to think that.

Dude will all due respect. It's been 5 weeks. That's nothing. Give it time. it may take YEARS for you to get to the marriage BOTH of you want.

Are you up for that?

Harrier yes I know 5 weeks. We were struggling for 2 years and separated for 6 months. I just moved back 6 weeks ago. I just hate that we do not talk about anything. Just going with the flow.

are you in MC?

how did you hear what your w said to relatives? How long ago was it?

I think you are doing a lot of mind reading now. Just try to enjoy things for what they are. her actions are more important than her words now.

W won't do MC. She said only unless we really really need it.

It was almost a month ago she said it and I heard it through a family member.

Thanks Harrier. "Her actions are more important than her words" really just hit home for me. She is certainly not acting like those words. Actually quite the opposite.

It's tough for sure and I think it's okay to talk from time to time.

however, there is a right way and a wrong way. The wrong way is "why aren't you doing X,Y,Z" or getting mad with a snide comment or being accusatory.

The right way is to say "I'm feeling good about the general direction of our marriage, how do you feel?" I think something like that is fine. If she does something that upsets you ... like the comment, I think it's okay to talk about it. Something like, "I think we are doing well and working on rebuilding our marriage and it hurts me when you say that to a third party."

No need to really talk about at length. But I'm sure others have ideas too.

i'm still learning this too. I think it will get easier.

[quote=Harrier]The right way is to say "I'm feeling good about the general direction of our marriage, how do you feel?" I think something like that is fine. If she does something that upsets you ... like the comment, I think it's okay to talk about it. Something like, "I think we are doing well and working on rebuilding our marriage and it hurts me when you say that to a third party."/quote]

Personally, I think the above is exactly appropriate for your sitch, NM.

"She said only unless we really really need it."

She called off your M. You need it.

Tell her that you want the two of you to go into C to be sure that the issues that came up before won't happen again. Rug sweeping the problems is the worst thing you could do right now and I've seen so many people do that. However the problems do come back. Save yourself a lifetime of heartache with a one hour session.

What about talking about the 6 months we were apart and she had rings off. You just let that completely go? What if there was OM etc

What about the rings? Does she wear them now? Honestly, what is to be gained by asking her about the rings?

Does asking her about the rings now show her you are focusing on the future?

as for the OM. Have you talked about it at all? In my case, my W had a 3-4 EA. I have not brought it up to her in over a year. it really does no good...unless you think there is something going on now.

In one of your first posts you said.

"She said I'm controlling and have trouble letting certain things go."

Think about that.

Kd I still have urges to snoop. Even with lots of counseling work. Not sure if it is because we do not communicate etc

The urge may never go away.

It may forever be you making an active choice about what to do about that urge.

I know mr b is a fan of snooping but the first time I did it gave me extreme anxiety.

But I hate that we don't talk at all about our marriage

I'm not necessarily a big fan of snooping. I believe initially it's good to gather your information to see what you're up against. For example, if the WAS is having sex with the OP, you should know ahead of time so you can protect yourself physically. Plus if you find out that your WAS bought the OP a car, you know you better start closing off your financial assets to them because in the end you'll lose out.

However, when you start snooping just to see the daily dirt and it gets obsessive, that's when all snooping does is to erode your self-esteem.

Is there a chapter that covers validation in detail

Net...I don't say this to be a jerk.

But did you read DB? because it seems as if a lot of your questions are covered by the book.

I did read it and will read the second version again. I just don't remember a specific chapter on validation . I remember one small section

I have read your thread. I know it sounds like you and W have a lot to work on however I am so happy for you and your family! I am actually a bit jealous. I truly hope you and your W do everything possible to make it the best Marriage ever. It�s also really nice to see that you received some great support and excellent advise from this site. Some of the people on this site are truly amazing. I know there�s the DB suggestions however every sitch is different. . Maybe I missed it but coming from a newcomer, what were some of the most pivotal things you did that helped kick start the reconciliation process?

Me(M):37
W:42
T: 14
M: 11
S: 8
D: 4
W wanted separation 5/5
Stopped living together 5/5
Currently in DB stage

�Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude�.
Thomas Jefferson

I'm not sure really what jump started it. Throughout the process I only had 2 slip ups from a pursue mode. I did give her space. At the end I finally accepted her threats of D verbally but NEVER pushed a D. I basically said I accept your decision. I even showed up to mediator and found a 1 year lease to a condo. I also started looking for a job. I own my own business. I also consistantly went to counseling and still do. I did GAL every night. I mean every night I GAl'd.

Even Michele says sometimes they snap out of it. But somewhere there is a bullet list of 27 things not to do. Follow them. Do not pursue. Act like your ok with moving on. At the end I was ready to live a single life. I was putting the pieces together to do that .

Hardest thing to do is detach . I never ever did. Ask kd lol. I certainly didn't obsess about situation at night cuz I GAl'd .

every sitch is different . For me my daughter had event. Me and w joked and laughed like old days. We were intimate that night. She actually cried after which bugged me the F out. We've been intimate ever since but just 2 weeks of being back home and all tfe fun and intimacy she telling relatives just for kids and one day I'll get the balls to leave me. I was like is this lady for real? But I told myself she just saving her face. She told everyone including kids it was over. 1 month later we still joking and intimate .

I've learned to give space and not react to her foolishness. That's the key NOT react. It's like taking oxygen out of a fire.

We have so much work . Communication is weak. But there is a time and place to start these conversations.

For example tonight we are alone. I want to talk about things. But she exhausted and actually we just chilled.

I really don't understand how I'm back home but I am. I never ever gave up and if you heard the crap my W spewed out her mouth and through email u would be blown away

Keep working on yourself. I'll never stop

Originally Posted By: netmaster

Hardest thing to do is detach . I never ever did. Ask kd lol.

lol... well, true... but I really had hope for you and thought you were heading in the right direction...

Having a bad few days. I've had anxiety since Sunday night and can't shake it.
I know this week is not the week to talk to w so that isn't helping

Then use this time to GAL, NM... just do it...

Ok I fd up. Was out to eat the other day with wife and her aunt called me and I said it was someone else . I panicked didn't want to ruin the positive strides we made. I don't even know why I lied but my W confronted me on it and I admitted I did it. She is really upset I lied and all I could do was explain I panicked. Don't know what to do from here. I'm wrong and six weeks back i let her down . Sad thing her aunt Just calling to see how things were but I didn't want my w to think i was snooping so I panicked like an idiot. But I just pissed all over the trust thing

Thanks netmaster. I appreciate your insight and wish you the best!

Everything is work in progress and I just screwed up after 6 good weeks

I am constantly questioning myself. If you look at my thread, I had a recent screw-up. It sounds like your being hard on yourself, no one�s perfect. I wouldn�t beat yourself up over it.

I am also hard on myself. I think it�s because we care and our marriages mean so much to us. As I am sure you know, we probably try harder than most people going through this and I will always know I am doing everything within my power. I will NEVER say that I didn�t give it my all!!! I am thinking you can probably agree with me on this one.

Me(M):37
W:42
T: 14
M: 11
S: 8
D: 4
W wanted separation 5/5
Stopped living together 5/5
Currently in DB stage

�Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude�.
Thomas Jefferson

Hard on myself yes but I lied. Ultimate dumb azz move when trying to build trust

First of all, you can't keep beating yourself up. You haven't had a chance to deal with any of YOUR anxieties because frankly your W hasn't helped you to deal with them. That's a big issue because SHE's the reason your anxiety came out in the first place.

Right now she is acting purely selfish. She has no intention (at least right now) of helping you to heal. Right now it's the same as before - it's about what SHE wants.

When you put your foot down and actually act and do what YOU want to, it will help your anxiety because you will no longer be afraid that she's scrutinizing every move you're making.

She has no right to place you under a microscope. She should be lucky that you actually want your M to last. Right now she feels like she has the power and can cut it off at any time. It's not a good position for you to be in right now. You have to be the one to call the shots.

Start disagreeing with you when you honestly feel things aren't right. Don't let her continue to walk over you.

Mr b yeah I feel like I moved right back into the same scenario. I mean she got a warning on her yahoo email the other day that her ip address changed and instantly thought I was snooping etc.

I really wanted to goto counseling and she doesn't .

I need to start doing more GAL now that I'm home

Real time situation. Wife gets notification that her yahoo email being accessed from 2 ip addresses . Automatically assumes its me snooping because of my past and she has wicked PMS on top of it plus I just got caught lying about something stupid .

I finally pulled her aside and looked her in the eye and told her I understand why she thinks that way but it isn't me. She doesn't understand technology all that well that she could log in from iPhone and laptop and get Warning.

I don't know how to establish trust

Quote:

...I just got caught lying about something stupid.

Quote:

I don't know how to establish trust

Stop lying for starters.

Yes 2point I know . I panicked. I came home and things have been great. I don't even know why I did . It was retarded. I am very down on myself for doing this.

She sort of hypocritical on that stuff cuz she hid stuff from me post separation

Originally Posted By: netmaster

Yes 2point I know .

No....you didn't know...

Otherwise you wouldn't have done it

Quote:

She sort of hypocritical on that stuff cuz she hid stuff from me post separation

This isn't tit-for-tat Net....

This SHOULD be about YOU doing the right thing....regardless...

Not a playground fight between two kindergarteners over the sandbox...

Honesty and Respect is how trust is built.

What are you showing her ?

For me, it would mean, that is how you would want to be treated.

2point w also gets PMS and body feels off and she completely distance hersel from me . She will often blame me for these feelings even though we have 3 solid weeks together , this y frustrating that we don't see someone once a week etc to talk if anything

Net, you know she has these monthly episodes, so you need to figure out a way to deal with her and her moods during this time. Maybe do some research at the bookstore on effective coping skills.

You might also offer (AFTER HER PERIOD IS DONE!!) to go with her to see a Dr./OBGYN to see if there is something that can be done to help her. Tread carefully here, though! Be real careful!

And stop giving her ammunition. You say you want to establish trust then you get caught in a lie. Give her a reason to trust you and she will. Show by your actions that you can be trusted.

And remember trust takes on many forms. It is not just about telling the truth. If you say you are going to go to the store for your W to pick up some items and then you fail to do so, not only are you unreliable but you are also untrustworthy to fulfill your commitments.,

If you say you are going to remain calm during your W's monthly cycle and then allow yourself to get sucked into her misery, then you can't be trusted to remain neutral and avoid escalation.

See what I'm saying?

2point yes I do know. Just frustrating that it is to the extreme of throwing towel in everytime . She is trying outside this week. She felt like this way last month and we were fine after but man y doesnt she see the correlation???

There is no way this can be brought up by me ever. That would be lethal but thx for suggestion!

I'm actually proud of myself I bit my tongue the whole week and did not ask her once if anything was wrong. I didn't snoop . I sometimes get strong urges to snoop when she gets quiet on me

Is there a particular forum section to read where you move back home after separation. Part of me is torn. I'm home things are OK but I don't feel like we are piecing. If anything I'm learning to cope better

Net - poke around the piecing forum and also check THIS out.

I'm starting to think just cuz I'm home doesn't mean we are piecing