Ok, so my previous thread got locked:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2242417&page=12But I wanted to respond to some really helpful feedback I received in the last few posts.
Zig said
“your h is talking more about how he is judging himself, i think.
as for "coming back from this" - don't take this burden on your self - it's not yours to carry. if your actions and words are not judgmental - you know that he's talking about himself”.Problem for me, Zig, is that I DO think I was overtly judgemental of my H when he started having a series of business failures. This went on for a period of some 3 years, and the whole shemozzle led to our current disaster relationship-wise, I feel.
Looking back, I can see his financial recklessness as part of his mlc/mood disorder. I didn't know that at the time and got increasingly angry and accusatorial about what he was doing to us financially.
I guess all I can do now is to show that I don’t judge him any more. But how long it might take for him to trust me again – is anyone’s guess. Maybe never….
You also said:
“btw - calling everyday, about picking up the kids?
is there a potential boundary setting scenario here on your part? can you be too busy to pick up the phone? or send a text earlier in the day and give him the time - there's an opportunity for a juicy 180 there on your part.
there's something about him calling everyday that smacks of keeping you pulled in and him calling the shots - especially over something like that , which could be handled differently?”I’m not sure about this.
Two things:
1. The kids’ schedules are all over the place and I don’t usually know, myself, what time they need to be picked up until they let me know in the morning. Every day is different and they 'remember' things they are scheduled to do at the last minute.
2. I kind of feel that it’s a baby step, at this stage, to have H ringing me to talk every day.
Previously, he has cycled into very short impersonal texting. Last few weeks have seen him ringing me daily again – and this usually turns into a brief, friendly conversation about movies or news or the dog… So I guess I see it as a way to show my changes.
I definitely don’t always pick up – and indeed, my non-responsiveness to his texts was what brought about the recurrence of phone calls recently.
But I take your point, I’m really not sure if I should go dim and try to make him realize what he’s missing, or keep sounding friendly and upbeat and be available to talk every day.
I may be off-track, DB-wise, here; just not sure which way to take it. At the moment I seem to be ‘doing what works’. H-ll, he even came inside, sat on the sofa and accepted a piece of pizza this afternoon when he dropped S13 off.
As pathetic as it sounds, accepting an offer of food from me like this is about as big a deal as a wild-life photographer enticing a rare, wild animal to eat from her hand.
Labug,
You said: "Judgment, blaming, shame all can ruin a R.
I agree, NLW, it's not yours to carry. I think it's monumental that 1) he recognizes this and 2)he articulated it.
He's thinking."
Thanks for your perspective on this.
I hadn't really thought of it as a sign of him working on himself - but now you mention it - it is something. I think I've been so caught up on making my own changes and looking within that i didn't even think about the possibility that he might be doing the same.
And I have read 'How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It'.
If only I'd read it before I took to blaming and shaming him with my anxiety about our business/financial situation.....
Accuray,
Yes! Just what I needed to hear.
As you said: "So if your H lost all his and your money, and says he feels very guilty, feels like a failure, etc. there's a few ways you can go. Generally reinforcing his guilty feelings aren't going to help, but neither are false reassurances, and that leaves you in a tough place".
Yes, it does feel tough to know what to do.
But your specific suggestions are just what I needed to hear.
I'm so grateful for the time you've taken to give specific, voiced examples of how to respond. How I wish I could see things with your clarity! I feel so dull and zombie-like these days. But I'll keep in mind that I need to focus on and applaud the positives.
H's LL is affirmation, so he'll lap up any amount of appreciation.
I do sense that he is coming back around in the last few days, so hoping this is not just because he wants something from me, but is responding to my consistent attempts to be independent, positive, upbeat and non-judgemental.
Maybe only a couple more years of this before he sees the light! (groan)
Not sure how to handle a recent request from my H. Any suggestions gratefully received.
He gave me an unsigned letter from his lawyer some months ago that requested my agreement to a separation of our assets. Presumably, because he GAVE it to me, and it was not signed by L, it was just a draft.
At the time he said I could throw it in the bin if I wanted - it was just an 'opening gambit'.
WTF?
He has now asked me for it back so he can 'make some changes'.
WTF X2?
Why wouldn't he just get his L to make the changes and send a new letter?
Should I give him my copy or should I just say that my L now has it?
I suppose I want to make him realise that getting a D isn't like this - you have to do it for yourself, not get your LBS to help you with the logistics.
AND, you have to pay (through the nose) for it!
Opinions?
Basically the letter said H would continue to pay kids' school fees and basic maintenance as long as I agreed to give him 40% of my superannuation and half of my house. Yeah, sure....
I replied by giving him a list of the types of financial information that would be needed in order to come to any agreement about financial matters (basically we need a list of assets and liabilities, tax statements, bank details, business details, etc). He refuses to produce this information.
NLW,
I'm wondering why he needs your copy back; if he gave you the draft, I would assume either he or his lawyer has the document saved? That's neither here nor there, just odd.
If it were me, I'd give him the document back with no questions/comments. However, I would make a copy for myself first (but not tell him this) so I could make side-by-side comparisons of his changes when you get the new draft.
There is no sense in mind-reading what it is he wants to change. He may want to be more generous or he may want to ask you for more. It will be interesting to see exactly what he has in mind.
In any event, I still think separating finances sooner rather than later is a good idea. If you reconcile, you can easily change this. But as I read somewhere recently, we all need to have a little "f-you" money tucked away for safe keeping. You never know when you might need it.
Take care, ncl
I would definitely just tell him to work directly with your lawyer and I would not entertain any of his cowboy style proposals
Do not negoitate directly with H, that is your L job. Your L can tell you what the protocol is and you should keep what the law says you should keep. Its not something that he should negiotate with you.
My father/lawyer says woman always get the short end when they handle the agreement themselves. He also thinks 4 ways meetings are a way for the H & lawyer to bully the woman.
Hang in there
Had a conversation with H today in which he showed again how he was feeling about himself.
S13 was talking to him about having watched him play football on the weekend.
H showed surprise that we were there. This was weird, as we were standing about 10 feet from him on the sideline for around 2 hours. And we had our distinctive dog with us. And there were only about 4 other people out watching!!!
Anyway, H said that he was "pathetic, pathetic" (in relation to how he played).
Repeated this again later in the conversation.
He seems so down. No chance for change while he's in this state.
And with the choices he's making, not much chance that he's going to feel good about himself.
Ok, Need some help in figuring out if i am over-reacting.
This morning, the power went out at home due to a big outage across the neighbourhood.
I get a call from H after about 30 mins asking what's happened - as the server that runs his business is still at home and he can tell it's not working.
I explain and say I will phone him back as soon as power is restored.
Tell him I am leaving for work in about 30 mins, however.
About 45 mins later - and after I am at work - I get a call from H to tell me that he has BROKEN IN to the house to get the server.
He says he went in through a back window - which I know to have been locked and to have had nails hammered through the frame to prevent forced entry.
I think it's possible that he may have kept a key and gotten in that way.
So he is either lying - in a pretty florid way - or has actually broken into the house that he hasn't lived in for 8 months.
In any case, he has now left the house open to burglars (during a power outage) knowing that I was at work all day.
I was shaking to think he would have done these things - either lied in such a ridiculous way, or actively forced entry and then left the house, and everything in it, vulnerable.
But then I thought maybe he just sees it as 'Oh well, I had to break into my own house because I didn't have a key and it was an emergency.'
In the end, I asked him to come to my work and pick up a key so that he could go back and re-lock the window.
Maybe I am just 'choosing' suffering to get upset over this? I really felt like I was losing it when he told me what he'd done.
Or maybe he really is starting to exhibit increased signs of mental breakdown....
Help!
Oh snap! That's just crazy!!! I would be upset as well. Seems a bit extreme to say the least!!!
So, when I get home, I can find no sign that he has broken in through the back window like he says.
(I think he must have a key and this has all been an elaborate charade.
If I had the $$, I'd have the locks changed, but no chance of that!)
My bedroom door, however, is ajar (and I think I shut it before I left, as the dog gets in and causes havoc).
BUT, there is no dog.
Just as I am starting to panic, H rings to announce that he has taken the dog (the kids and I got the dog after he left).
He says he's taken it to his mate's house, where he claims to live. Says he will bring it back soon.
He has tried to take the dog on several occasions before but has been unwilling to tell me where he is taking it, so I have fobbed him off.
S13 is not keen for H to take his dog out either, as he does not trust him to watch it carefully.
So now it seems he has seized his chance to do what I was trying to control.
Oh dear, how pathetic my life has become. And how thoroughly down - and on the verge of a breakdown - this sort of weird game-playing makes me feel.
What to do now - act 'as if' nothing out of the ordinary happened? Give him the benefit of the doubt and try to keep the road home paved and smooth?
i think you answered your own question. but, i would still figure out a way to get the locks changed.
That's just odd. Why feel would he feel the need to add drama? But then again, my H is the king of drama lately. It's all about them and how rough they have it.
Do you want that craziness in your life?
Do you want to come home everyday wondering if he's been in your house?
NLW,
So sorry to hear the unpredictable craziness continues. When my H and I first separated, I went away for a weekend with my 3 best friends (trip had been previously scheduled and I wasn't missing it). He took the opportunity to come into our home and take not just his things (fine for that), but things he didn't need or even really want. They were items he knew I loved and that I'd be hurt and angry. He also came in the house a time or 2 late at night when I was sleeping to get things and to snoop around.
I no longer felt safe, and I didn't appreciate my privacy and space being violated. It was time for a boundary. He had chosen to move out, so the coming and going on his terms was over. I wasn't going into his house (couldn't have paid me to), and he wasn't going to just barge into where I was living. When I called about having the locks changed, the locksmith told me a more economical and equally as good of alternative was to have the current locks re-keyed, so that's what I did. We live in a large home with several doors, and the entire job cost under $250. Talk about peace of mind; it was worth every penny paid! My parents offered to pay for it, but I charged it to my H instead.
Oh my, was he P!SSED when he found out! I was actually on vacation at the beach with my kids when he tried to come in again, and he tore into me by text about locking him out of HIS home that he pays for, etc. I assured him that my attorney had given me the go-ahead because I no longer felt safe NOR was he respecting our separation agreement. I told him if he wanted to take me to court about it to knock himself out. He simmered down and decided it was in his best interest not to.
This is all part of establishing and enforcing boundaries. It may not be best for everyone, but I had put up with the bs for 3 years and was done with it. If his not respecting my boundaries meant divorce, then his loss. Why would I want to be with someone like that anyway?
But as you know...the story didn't end in divorce. I can say with certainty that had I not enforced boundaries, no way would our reconciliation be as successful as it is. Sure, it could've ended in divorce as well, but I would be living on MY terms.
Just something to think about. Do what you need to do to protect yourself and your kids and to have peace.
Hugs, ncl
Hi NLW,
One perspective I had reading this was that he's already worried about his failing business and obviously feeling very down about it. If his server being down prevented him from doing business, I can see how he would have flipped and acted 'in the moment' to try to get things going again. I really view it as an emergency from his perspective. If he was breaking in to make himself lunch out of your fridge I think you'd have a right to be indignant about it. In this case, at least he called and told you he did it.
I think your best bet is to ask him to keep the server somewhere else going forward, and to set a boundary from this point forward about coming into your house when you're not home (don't do it). I would focus on that rather than making a big deal over what's happened.
Accuray
Thanks ss, wh and labug for your replies - it helps so much to know you're there.
When I think about it, it seems that H is trying to test me by doing these sorts of things - baiting me to 'explode' with anger at him, and criticise, like I used to.
When I saw him again yesterday afternoon, he apologised for having 'broken in' - although it's clear to me now that he did no such thing and must have a key. Looking into his eyes, I could see pain, fear/panic.
Maybe I'm being gullible, but I feel for him. As my mother said when I told her about what had been happening - he's lying to you like a young child would do if they'd been found out for doing something bad. In other words, he's reduced to the level of a child in his ability to cope.
I believe he's having a complete breakdown and I'm trying to respond with compassion.
So, I'm trying to keep an even keel and not get dragged into his drama. But I see the sense in getting the locks changed....I found the whole episode quite destabilising.
So sorry to hear the unpredictable craziness continues. When my H and I first separated, I went away for a weekend with my 3 best friends (trip had been previously scheduled and I wasn't missing it). He took the opportunity to come into our home and take not just his things (fine for that), but things he didn't need or even really want. They were items he knew I loved and that I'd be hurt and angry. He also came in the house a time or 2 late at night when I was sleeping to get things and to snoop around.
ncl,
This info about your experience makes me feel like I'm on the right track in dealing with h's recent behaviour. I think he is trying to get me angry. He's not trusting of the changes he can see in me and is trying to make me respond like I used to - by baiting me in ways that he knows will push my buttons.
But, I'm not so much that woman any more....
Great advice about the re-keying! I will certainly look into this. It does feel like so much of a violation to have H in the house on his own now. Strange how things turn out....
I admit I am not great about enforcing boundaries. I've been trying to give him every opportunity to experience our home, and the time with us that he chooses to have, as warm and welcoming. I look at him as suffering a massive breakdown and under enormous financial strain. I realise however that i've got to protect myself and the kids.
Just trying to walk the line between being compassionate and being a doormat.
Best, NLW
Accuray,
I really appreciated what you had to say.
This pretty much fits with the conclusion I came to.
I think he is really flipping out again about his business and the failure of the server was just too much to cope with. He flipped - and came out with some BS story about having to break in.
Funny thing is, he didn't even try to make it look as if he'd broken in. Nothing in my daughter's room was moved, and he would have had to haul himself right over her desk and through piles of junk in order to squeeze through the window.
Likewise, outside the window, nothing had been touched and various things would have had to have been moved for him to get access.
Just a bit weird that he would have lied so outrageously and then not even tried to cover his tracks - indicative of 'flipping out' in the extreme I'd say. And indicative of the level of strain he is under in relation to his failing business at the moment.
He has taken the server for good now, so that won't be an excuse in the future.
He was very contrite this afternoon about 'what happened this morning', and when I acted upbeat and understanding about the emergency, he seemed relieved.
He could just be playing me, but I can see so much fear and panic in his eyes.
There is no point making a big deal of it at the moment. My gut says better to show compassion right now.
But I guess that's what all doormats say!
i don't think you can go wrong showing compassion.
Just a bit down tonight.
Kids rang H asking for his help with homework and he came over.
It was Mothers' day, but not a word of recognition from H.
I continue to be friendly, civil and upbeat around him with no pursuit.
But there seems to be just NOTHING there any more.
He treats me like I am less than a passing acquaintance, and i think this is just what he wants. All so nice and civil - and it's as if we were never anything to each other.
Just said one day: "I don't want to be married any more", and I was like, "Oh OK", and off we went our separate ways.
God but this is hard...
If I detach any more from this, I'm sure he'll just walk away and forget we ever existed.
Maybe I'm just panicking because there seems to be no emotional content.
When he was angry and arguing, at least he seemed to CARE. Now, he doesn't seem to register that i exist.
Afraid that we've 'plateau-ed', with him thinking that I'm totally accepting of what he's done and happy with the arrangement.
Is this doing 'what works'?
Is this doing 'what works'?
Does it work for a YOU?
Are YOU content with status quo?
Are you getting closer to YOUR goals?
If the answers to these questions are yes, then yep, you are doing "what works"...just make sure it truly works for YOU.
If the answers are no, then do something different. Change your gameplan. Make what you have to work with work for YOU.
Either way, do what makes NLW happy and healthy.
Hugs, ncl
Hi NLW,
I'm sorry you're feeling so badly. It is our expectations that often lead to our worst feelings of angst. Of course on Mother's Day you had some expectations of something from H. When H didn't meet those expectations, it triggers you to feel awful. Just recognize that H didn't set those expectations, you did. If you expect nothing, you won't be disappointed.
If I detach any more from this, I'm sure he'll just walk away and forget we ever existed.
If you were truly detached, you wouldn't care, you'd feel bad for him for missing out on what you have to offer.
This dynamic above is the greatest fear of the LBS -- that if I go in the other direction, go dark, detach, etc., that our WAS will not come looking for us once they've realized they've gotten the space they wanted.
Unfortunately there is no way to know without putting it to the test. Sometimes they'll come back and sometimes they won't, and that final knowledge can be terrible if you're not prepared for it.
Rather than face that, we're tempted to pursue, to try to keep things warm, to believe that if we cultivate the relationship it will re-grow due to our efforts. Unfortunately, that just keeps us in a state of limbo -- we keep pursuing, the WAS keeps distancing. They enjoy your pursuit, it's comforting. It's nice knowing they can return and if things go really badly there is a place to go, it's an insurance policy. Therefore, they're not motivated to end the limbo. Because we see the slightest bit of return for our pursuit, which is really just the WAS trying to keep the insurance policy in place, we continue to pursue, once again perpetuating the cycle indefinitely.
So in my words based on my interpretation of all that I've read, here's the best thing you can do:
Work on you -- 180 your issues, be the best, most attractive, most confident and fun loving person you can be.
If you look and act differently than your H has been programmed to expect, then it forces him to call into question what he thinks he knows about you. This cracks open the door to allowing him to believe that a future with you may look differently than your past.
At the same time, you give him space, you GAL, you act as if, you detach. You build your own life that satisfies YOU, which helps to make you a happy person and reinforces breaking H's expectations.
You need to do both of them. If you detach but don't 180, then H doesn't see how the future is any different than what he knows. If you 180 without detaching, then H hasn't gotten the space he feels he so desperately wants, and that tension will continue to drive him away regardless of how well you've done your 180's. He needs to reset and collect himself.
Now unfortunately, even if you do both of these things perfectly, there are no guarantees. Some people are stubborn -- once they make up their minds, that's it. Some people are irrational in the extreme. Some people refuse the believe that anything could be different in the future. Some people think that you're just trying to trick them and lure them back with your 180's, but once they return everything will go back to how it was.
The tricky thing is that last one -- because nothing fixes that but time. The only thing that makes your changes credible is prolonged repetition of consistent behavior without backsliding. How long is needed to make it credible and believable? There is no rule.
Therefore, if you're not seeing the results you're looking for, either it's not working, or you haven't waited long enough, and there's really no reason to know which one it is.
That's why it keeps coming back to you. If you define your success according to factors you can control, and not what H does or doesn't do, then you can begin to rebuild on your own. If you rebuild on your own, then you feel good about yourself. If you feel good about yourself, then H's reaction to you matters less.
I hope you feel better NLW
Accuray
NLW, I'm in the same leaky boat today and visiting other threads for words of wisdom.
I just keep thinking-his choices are not about me, they are about him.
Thanks, Accuray, for the post.
(((NLW)))
I'm going to put that response in my DB Words of Wisdom file and I'm calling it DB-Back to Basics.
I will read it several times today.
i, too, needed to read accuray's words of wisdom. i think he should write a book.
Hi ncl,
Yep, that's right, gotta keep the focus on me, I know.
But it's hard - as we all know.
Does it work for me - well, I don't even know the answer to that straight up.
It sorta does and sorta doesn't.
I think I'm in danger of being impatient. Maybe I've managed to re-establish a 'friendship' with H. He's coming around more frequently again now and calling more regularly on the phone - even when he doesn't need to.
But, he still seems pretty detached from me and there are no signs of anything except a civil relationship.
My best guess is I'm just being impatient in regard to achieving my goals. I should probably be happy with what I've got at the moment - no arguing, spewing, regular contact initiated by him... and just wait for things to warm up between us on the back of consistent change on my part.
Took the kids to a movie last night (Dark Shadows - can't recommend it) and then to obedience training for the dog. So my GAL is still focused around them, but that seems inevitable at the moment. Did meet a divorced Dad last week at a school function who was def holding eye contact for longer that necessary, so.. if I'm ever in a place to make an effort re getting to know someone new, there might be still be a chance for an old hag like me.
If you expect nothing, you won't be disappointed.
If you were truly detached, you wouldn't care, you'd feel bad for him for missing out on what you have to offer.
Hi Accuray,
Thank you for your wise words - this really helped me get through the last few days.
On expectations - I'm getting much better at this. I really have reduced these to almost 0.
On true detachment, I'm not so far advanced. I do feel bad for him that he's missing out, but I can't say I've completely detached yet. So I will keep at it.
I am doing a pretty good job at 180-ing my issues, I think, as you suggest, but I will keep this at the forefront of my thinking, as it's so important for me and the kids in our interactions, too.
I am trying to be fun, non-judgemental, confident, and attractive. Just a bit impatient that H doesn't seem to register any of these changes. Not that I absolutely need him too... but it would be nice.
I am def acting 'as if' and trying to give him space. All I do now is to announce that the kids and I are doing something, or have an event that he might like to attend. When he declines because he is 'too busy at work,' or has football training, I just say "That's Ok, no worries' or similar. No pressure any more. I don't ring or text him, and when he calls me, I try to end the call first in an upbeat way.
I think you are dead right with your point that:
"Some people think that you're just trying to trick them and lure them back with your 180's, but once they return everything will go back to how it was." So my limbo is going to have to continue with prolonged practice of consistent behaviour.
And realistically, I have been backsliding a lot over the last months. Really only been consistent in my 180s for about the last couple of months.
So, need to re-set my patience levels.
I've got a LONG way to go yet.
So, all in all, I do feel much better for having thought about your feedback. Phew!
You are helping people so much - I hope you realise how useful your posts are.
Best NLW.
Thanks NLW, that makes me feel really good. I know this is impossibly hard. I feel like I understand these concepts well, but applying them myself is something I also struggle with.
Keep at it!
Accuray
This was really helpful! I'm filing it away in my helpful reads list!
Hang in there and go easy on yourself. I am glad you are GAL and got a little confidence boost from that divorced dad! But you are no hag, NLW...you are a beautiful, smart, successful, kind, funny, fun and loving mom...and a woman only a fool would leave.
Don't forget that!
I hope you did have a blessed Mother's Day! ncl
hi ncl,
Thanks for the pep talk!
I had a good mothers' day - the kids made me beautiful cards and my mum (who's 86) went to a great deal of effort to make a lovely lunch for us all.
So, yes, I am blessed.
But this weekend.... I have a raging toothache. And wouldn't you know it came in on Friday night (i.e. no dentist available)?
It's much worse when I try to lie down and is sensitive to hot and cold so I have diagnosed root canal as the likely treatment.
Before I got hold of some Ibrufrofen/codeine, I was almost crying with the pain as I walked the supermarket isles doing our weekly shop. Nothing like throbbing physical pain to add to emotional devastation!
But thank goodness for pain killers that WORK! Imagine what it was like in the old days.....
Just gotta make it through to Monday morning so I can ring the dentist. Not looking forward to the medieval torture that is root canal, though.
Supermarket 'isles' - what a great idea!
I'd head to the isle of confectionary every time.
I had a root canal a couple of months ago, my first ever and I too, was dreading it.
It wasn't bad at all, I didn't feel a thing. The most difficult part was having my mouth propped open for an hour.
It was better than a mammo!
hi ncl,
Thanks for the pep talk!
I had a good mothers' day - the kids made me beautiful cards and my mum (who's 86) went to a great deal of effort to make a lovely lunch for us all.
So, yes, I am blessed.
But this weekend.... I have a raging toothache. And wouldn't you know it came in on Friday night (i.e. no dentist available)?
It's much worse when I try to lie down and is sensitive to hot and cold so I have diagnosed root canal as the likely treatment.
Before I got hold of some Ibrufrofen/codeine, I was almost crying with the pain as I walked the supermarket isles doing our weekly shop. Nothing like throbbing physical pain to add to emotional devastation!
But thank goodness for pain killers that WORK! Imagine what it was like in the old days.....
Just gotta make it through to Monday morning so I can ring the dentist. Not looking forward to the medieval torture that is root canal, though.
Ah I can so relate to the tooth issue - I had my then 4year old with me, I was exhausted from sitch with H, and I was crying from pain in the car driving to the pharmacy, showed up and realized I forgot my wallet and had to go home for it. Fun times! But we did splurge on ice cream because the tooth issue kept me from eating over the weekend.
No fun I agree..
Arrgh, got stuck in traffic taking the kids to school this morning and so couldn't ring the dentist for an emerg appointment until 30 mins after they opened - by which time they'd "been inundated' by emerg callers apparently.
So, I can't get in for another 2 days.
OMG - at least the pain will take my mind off my sitch with H.....
Big combined orchestral concert for S13 tonight. As usual, no idea whether H will show or not.
No longer concerns me the way it used to, although always feel sad for S13.
No sleep for 3 nights now due to tooth and can't eat much either, so I look a real treat (I looked a bit haggard to start with due to LBS diet).
Still, will put on my glad rags and enjoy the evening - S13 has been rehearsing for this for 3 months now.
Thanks LIO for dropping by - I can imagine your frustration when you discovered you forgot your wallet: Just give me the pain killers!!!!
LOL apparently the pharmacy actually NEEDED a payment before they hand out the hard stuff!
But way to look at the next 2 days with a positive, albeit painful, attitude
Hi Guys,
I need to respond to a letter my H sent today asking for 50% split of all of my assets (house, contents, superannuation) - all of which I owned before he came to the marriage with no assets at all and proceeded to lose a fortune (my savings and equity) through bad businesses.
He has given me 1 week to respond and then he will "instruct his lawyer to pursue a court date to pursue a settlement according to these terms".
He says he would "like to get this out of the way as it is weighing on my mind."
No mention of 'Divorce'.
What do you think of the following reply - apologies for the length, but I need to give him a wake-up call about what this process is going to involve. To date he has steadfastly refused to divulge any of this financial information. Readers can skip the detail of the financial stuff. I'm mainly interested in your opinions about the general tone and the personal parts of the response. Ready for all sorts of 2x4s:
Dear H,
Thank you again for your time and effort in putting together your financial proposal. Reviewing it confirmed to me that at this point neither of us has sufficient information to arrive at an optimal solution for how to best separate our complicated financial situation.
My response to the lawyer's letter that you showed me in February remains the same.
The general principles that are always considered when deciding financial matters after the breakdown of a marriage involve the following:
• Formally documenting what we have got and what we owe, that is our assets and debts and what they are worth.
• Establishing the direct financial contributions by each party over the course of the marriage such as wage and salary earnings.
• Looking at indirect financial contributions by each party such as gifts and inheritances from families.
• Establishing the non-financial contributions to the marriage such as caring for children and homemaking.
• Considering future requirements – things like age, health, financial resources, care of children and ability to earn.
A just and equitable decision needs to be based on a consideration of these unique facts of the case.
More specifically, my advice is that the splitting of any assets has to be decided on the basis of a list of all the assets, debts, expenses, liabilities, incomes, etc. This will require:
1. Recent mortgage statements;
2. Copies of any valuation obtained on any house or other property in the last 6 months;
3. Copies of statements covering the last 12 months in respect of every Bank, Building Society or National Savings Account which are held, either in sole names or jointly;
4. Surrender value quotations for all insurance policies;
5. Copies of our last 3 payslips and the end of year statements for the last 3 years;
6. Copies of the last 3 years accounts for any businesses and trusts;
7. Details of any debts or liabilities;
8. Copies of credit/store card statements;
10. Details of all other assets/businesses/investments.
In short, in financial and property matters it is a standard requirement that the following information is disclosed.
• All sources of earnings
• Financial interests
• Income
• Property
• Other financial resources
• Property disposal (sale, transfer, assignment or gift) made within a year before separation or after separation.
We also need to factor in the following:
• Expenses and separate itemisation of expenses specific to children. These include household, transportation, and personal expenses.
• Assets and debts, including particulars such as the names of financial institutions and account numbers.
• Special lists for itemising on a per child basis, the alleged monthly special or extraordinary expenses.
What also needs to be taken into account is how much each party contributed to the relationship. There are four main groups of contributions that are taken into account:
• Financial
• Parental
• Homemaker
• Non-Financial
If we can agree on the specific details of these 4 matters the process will be expedited.
1. Financial Contributions
Financial Contributions are all monetary contributions to the relationship. Financial contributions can include but are not limited to:
• Wages
• Amount each person had at the start of the relationship and what specific items/assets they brought to the union.
• Allegations of wastage in respect of finances.
2. Parenting Contributions
These contributions could be described as the amount of parenting that was done, such as helping children with homework, taking them to school, organizing their activities, buying their clothing, spending time with them, etc.
3. Homemaker Contributions
These are the contributions made to the home for example vacuuming, cooking, washing, cleaning, ironing, gardening, etc. Whether domestic help was used is taken into account.
4. Non-Financial Contributions
Non-financial contributions are contributions made which have resulted in the increase of size in the net asset pool, eg renovations such as the built-in cupboard that you made in S13's bedroom, the fence that you erected in the backyard, and so on.
An agreed property/ business/ travel chronology along the following lines (see below for the type of detail that is required) will expedite the process and ensure that any decision as to who is owed what is based on the same agreed information.
[Worked example of a chronology of relevant financial/property events in a marriage inserted here.]
As before, H, I can only say that the fact that we have come to this saddens me beyond expression.
I think you know that this is not what I want for us at all. Given the opportunity, I'd like to give our life together as a family with our two dear children another chance. This would mean doing things very differently in order to build an entirely new relationship based on what we have learned through this difficult time.
Yet, I have accepted that you don't want that and I agree that we need to resolve our financial situation as soon as possible in the interests of our children.
My position is not intended to hurt you in any way and I hope you can believe that. Like you, I just want a fair resolution that works in the best interest of our children. I believe, however, that nobody wins in a situation like this.
As you say, at this point we can move forward in one of 2 ways, a collaborative separation process or a traditional litigation route. It is my hope that we can proceed collaboratively. Given that we currently have an amount of $15,000 outstanding for last term’s school fees, I believe we would be hard-pressed to pay the legal fees that would be incurred if relevant documentation is required to be pursued via court orders or processes of forensic accounting. My hope is that if you do decide to go down the route of litigation, that we at least prioritize payment of the school fees before incurring further significant ongoing debt in relation to laywers’ fees.
Whatever route we take, it seems that the same standard documentation will be required. I understand that it will be time-consuming, but just and equitable decisions cannot be made in the absence of full information.
I am happy to work with you to put together the required documentation, and to work on an agreed chronology, in order to expedite the process.
Again, I am so sorry about our situation. My hope was that we could continue to work together in partnership to build a future for our family by way of the occupations and businesses that we worked so hard to maintain over the years. Most of all, I cannot express the depth of my sadness to be loosing you as my husband and partner in life.
W
I would respond saying that doesn't work for me and ask for the name of his lawyer so your lawyer can contact him/her.
alternatively, I would say that doesn't work for me. I have found mediator x that is reputable and I would like to see to save me and the kids some money. if that does not work for you, please give me the name of your attorney and ill have my attorney contact him/her.
your letter is pursuing, it is implicitly invalidating of your H's wishes even as it claims to be accepting and it also is patronizing or talking down to in the sense that you are trying to educate him about the legal process and all that he doesn't know or is not considering. emasculating to a man and not ur responsibility -- leave that to the lawyers mediators or judge to edumacate him.
few more thoughts. your letter and thinking is still full of 'we's'. The only we you should be thinking or writing about is you and the kids. in relation to ur was it should be 'I'
you also might preface ur response by welcoming the overture. oh im glad you brought this up H because getting my financial in order also has been weighing on my mind.
I am new to the divorce busting site, although have been reading for a long time. Also have been thru divorce several years ago after long term marriage.
I believe your possible letter to husband, is way, way too long. Too much to read., and I think it will just irritate him.
I agree that you should just say,"it doesn't work for me" and let the lawyers handle it.
I agree with busto. The letter is very, very long. You explicitly state that you are doing it to teach H a lesson of what the process will involve. You need to let the process teach H the lesson. All of that stuff in there detailing the process should come from his L, not you. In some other older threads, vets mentioned leaving all of the D stuff to the Ls, so it keeps it separate from your R while you continue DB'ing, being upbeat and approachable, etc. This letter is the opposite of upbeat and approachable.
Don't apologize for your situation in the letter, either. That's pursuing again.
NLW, I used to write very similar emails.
Busto is right. It does sound condescending and holier than thou. Now that you've got that out of your system...
Don't send it. The less said the better,
I don't remember, did you get a L?
Busto, dpbp, verab,
Thanks for your feedback. Message is clear: I need to stop trying to teach H what to do - setting myself up for resistance and resentment from him.
Also have to stop pursuing. Thought this might be my last chance to tell him I still don't want this to happen and that, even at this late stage, I would still be open to us trying something different but, he probably knows this anyway.
Although, he is so insecure, I sometimes think he believes I have done with him because he is so unworthy anyway.
So, I will tell him:
"Thanks for working on the settlement stuff; it's been weighing on my mind too. I do not know about how the assets should be split but I have heard of a reputable mediator and going down this path would not cost as much as going straight to lawyers. Please let me know if you would consider using a mediator and we can get things moving."
I really appreciate the opportunity to get a different perspective from you guys. As you can see, I am not yet in a place where I am making good decisions in interacting with H. I didn't think I was being condescending or 'holier than thou' (just trying to set out what was needed for us to make some progress towards a financial settlement - and, I admit, 'scare ' H with a dose of reality in the process) so I have been saved, again, by these boards.
Best, NLW
labug,
Thanks for giving me great advice.
It does feel good though to have that out of my system.
With me, it's always a case of 'the less said the better', and I need to keep reminding myself not to lecture H and my kids.
I do have a lawyer, but I'm afraid that I can't continue to pay her. For 2 consults already - and advice from her that H proceeded to absolutely ignore - I was up for a huge amount of money that my parents offered to pay.
Don't see how I can go down that route for long, but then again, neither will my H be able to, I suppose.
And on the topic of root canal - you were right about that, too!
I had it done yesterday, and it didn't hurt a bit.
Last time was some years ago now (and, so, equipment more basic) but also I think, last time, my tooth was not dead and so when the reaming devices were jammed up and down in the root canal, the open nerve was being prodded. It was torture!
No probs at all now apart from a bit of residual aching and tenderness in my jaw.
Yay for small mercies...
Hope things are going Ok for you,
NLW
just need to get this out.
Got overwhelmed by a feeling that i was really on the verge of madness today.
H has been here (Sunday afternoon) helping the kids with homework.
I made myself scarce after giving him a cup of tea and chatting briefly - as I would to any visiting acquaintance.
As I worked in the back of the house i could hear the kids and H laughing gleefully and having a great time.
We had a great conversation ourselves and everything seemed so nice.
Then, after he'd left, it hit me like a ton of bricks.
He's gone, my loving husband and the father of our kids has deserted us - and he's not coming back...
And i still can't get my he'd around it and i think I might be on the verge of madness trying to deal with this situation in which there seems to be no explanation for why he is doing this.
It still seems so incongruous. It's just not him, not my H.
Everything seems so good, so normal and yet... he is gone.
I'm afraid I'll lose my mind. I can't seem to snap out of this denial. I don't think it's just a matter of detaching - i have been getting more and more successful at detaching emotionally from the hurtful things he's done.
The feeling of disbelief/denial is different. I just can't really grasp that this is actually happening to me. I think I might go on forever thinking that it's just a matter of time before he comes back to us.
Oh dear. A real miss Havisham moment.
And i still can't get my he'd around it and i think I might be on the verge of madness trying to deal with this situation in which there seems to be no explanation for why he is doing this.
Stop trying to figure it out. That's what's driving you "mad."
I posted this on another thread and it subsequently got buried.
I've learned to cope, because one simply has to.
This story may or may not help you.
Some time ago, my XW made some life choices, which caused me great pain and anguish.
But this was not her intent. It was not about me.
She was trying, in a way, to escape her own pain and anguish.
I have to accept that although she knew the consequences to me, it was something she just had to do.
Any damage to me was, for lack of a better term, "collateral damage."
Can you see how a WAS may not be hell bent on inflicting pain on you?
We as LBS'ers have to move "ourselves" forward from the mess for our own good.
God Speed.
Pic.
NLW, so happy your root canal experience was better than you expected. I know I was rally dreading it and was so happy with the outcome.
About the going mad thing, I have those moments but they're brief. I'll be at work and life will seem very normal and I'll get that thought of him and that he's gone, how could that be? And he's never coming back? How could that be?
That's what I choose to believe right now, that he's never coming back.
Just had a light-bulb moment from reading one of 25's posts (not unusual, I know!).
She pointed out that to our WASs, we are the reason they are not with their kids.
Hence the resentment, animosity, coldness that seems so baseless, often, to us.
I can see it from my H's POV now:
I was impossible to live with. He had to escape to survive.
But that meant that I was the source of him losing his kids.
He can't be with them when they are with me.
That seems to be where he's at.
I know this is mind-reading, but it gives me some sense of understanding why he is behaving like he is.
Thanks 25!
[
I've learned to cope, because one simply has to.
This story may or may not help you.
Some time ago, my XW made some life choices, which caused me great pain and anguish.
But this was not her intent. It was not about me.
She was trying, in a way, to escape her own pain and anguish.
I have to accept that although she knew the consequences to me, it was something she just had to do.
Any damage to me was, for lack of a better term, "collateral damage."
Can you see how a WAS may not be hell bent on inflicting pain on you?
We as LBS'ers have to move "ourselves" forward from the mess for our own good.
Hi Pic,
Thanks for looking in. You are so right about learning to cope because you just have to. My friends at work who know about my sitch keep saying they don't know how I can keep going.
All I can say to them is that i don't really have a choice. I've got 2 kids and money to find. I don't really have any other option but to keep on going.
I also know what you're saying about our WASs' stuff not being about us - to some extent.
In my case however, I think I am not just collateral damage, as it were.
There is an element of punishment in my H's behaviour, particularly when it comes to financials. I am def the 'bad guy' in his eyes (most of the time).
I am still trying to move myself forward from the mess, but sometimes, I have a crisis that makes me feel paralysed,
Reading feedback like yours helps me get back on track. Without it, I'd probably still be ruminating and stuck.
So, thank you.
Labug,
That's brave, choosing to think that he's never coming back.
I'm not there yet. I keep thinking that he will eventually, but I don't have any hope that it's going to be any time soon.
These days I'm sort of scared that by the time he does, I will be 'gone'.
That saddens me.
What I do realise is that I have to live my life as if he's not coming back.
It's giving him the space that he has decided he needs.
And if I don't do this, - i.e., if I fail to listen to him again, then I will just be confirming that I haven't changed at all.
And I'm getting better at this. Still have those moments of sheer panic at the thought, but I know it's the only way to pull through this mess.
Sometimes it's the little things that bring you down hardest.
Today, S13 came home from school and mentioned that the photographers had been at school taking the annual individual portraits of all students.
I said "Gee, hope you combed your hair!" and he replied that he didn't get his photo taken.
He said he hadn't brought the notice and pre-payment form home to me last week because he knew we didn't have enough money to pay for things.
He'd simply decided that this was one way he could take some pressure off me.
So now, after 8 years at the school (starting at age 4) and 8 formal portraits showing how S13 has changed year by year, we have a gap. Nice reminder, too, in the years to come, of what H did to our family this year, as the gap will always require explanation.
Very sad for myself. And silly, I know. Just seems a bit tragic on all fronts.
Tried to look up the photo company online to see if they do portraits in their own studio, but they are an out-of-town outfit.
Not the end of the world, but just another small poke in the very bruised ribs of my life.
Its always the little things that sting the most.
Stay focused on you and the kids. Dont try to predict the future or worry about the future. Focus on today.
Love you and thinking of you:)
you could call sears. they have great packages. it will fill the gap. there are others, too.
Also, schools usually have makeup days for kids who are absent. Maybe he can get his pic taken then?
I was going to suggest the retakes too. But first you need to recognize that your son is anxious about the money situation. If you go ahead with the pictures maybe you should talk with him about why you love having a picture of each year, and where you can save up the money for the most inexpensive package. Talk to him about this stuff, because he is worried about your family's financial situation and trying to take it on his own shoulders.
Bklyn, ss, unb, ad thanks so much for your words of support. I will sort this out with my son and make sure he is OK.
However, right now, I need to share another punch in the guts, and more worry about what this is doing to my kids.
Background to my sitch is that H has not admitted to being back on with OW since he moved out - and steadfastly maintains he is not living with her (pretty much a couple of blocks away from our home in the next, more up-market, suburb).
This morning H offered to drive S13 to his basketball game as D16 had netball scheduled on the other side of town at the same time.
When I got home from the game, S13 reported that H had rung him before he was due to arrive this morning to ask "If Mummy and D16 had left yet?"
When S13 said we had, H pulled into the driveway in about 2 minutes, driving a silver Mercedes convertible.
When S13 asked him about the car, H said it was the last one in the driveway at his mate's house and thus easiest to get out so early in the morning. When S13 asked him if he liked driving it, H said: "It's a bit of a girl's car."
Now, I know that OW drives a Mercedes. And S13 twigged that what H had told him was a lie - as he knows that the mate and his male friends would never drive such a car.
I find it hard to believe H is treating us with such obvious contempt.
He must know that S13 will tell me - does he want us to know but doesn't know how to broach the subject?
I know that the OW is part of the mlc script, but when you get hit in the face with it like this, just when you start to feel stronger and begin detaching, it really sets you back.
Almost cried, thought about confronting him about what effect this BS is having on the kids, but then tried to remember that this is something H has to go through.
I know almost all of you guys have had to deal with this, too, so why should I be any different. If you can all continue in the face of such pain, why shouldn't I?
Just needed to get on here and let it out - and hopefully hear a few words about how to deal with this.
I'm tossing up between saying nothing and continuing to DB in the 'be pleasant, do not pressure, be the woman only a fool would leave' mode
OR
going completely NC and saying I think we should D as soon as possible.
This will mean instructing my lawyer to fight his claims over my assets in an aggressive way that will mean that a lot of dubious financial dealings around H's businesses will need to be put up for discussion.
Can't imagine there's much hope of coming back from sicking a forensic accountant onto H.
H is scheduled to return to help S13 with homework later this afternoon - once he has finished playing his game of football. So I will have to see him and act as if, I suppose.
This is so hard.
How easy would it be just to go for their balls and reveal them to all and sundry for the lying, cheating, pathetic adulterers that they are?
I can't believe he has left us for a woman who texted him when he first broke it off with her following my discovery of their relationship: "I will ruin your life".
She certainly has. And mine. And that of my 2 kids. And the lives of my elderly parents.
How I see myself running at them both, screaming: "Vengeance is mine: Hell hath no fury like a (good) woman scorned", as I extract my revenge...
H is not the only one living in a fantasy world at the moment it seems!
(((NLW))) So sorry for what you're going through. I don't have much in the way of advice but as tempting as it might sound to sic your L and his accountant on H, that's tempting only because it takes the sting out of the hurt you are feeling now as it would be an attempt to hurt H back. I think the best bet is to keep DB'ing (but closer to NC than not) and to give it the ol' 48 hours before you take the torch option. Your life isn't ruined; you have 2 lovely children and your lovely self. You alone have the control over how you handle this. Stay strong.
I also wanted to say that, although I didn't respond to your post earlier in the week about your S and him trying to take the load off of you by not telling you about the pictures, I have been thinking about all week since I read about it. I agree that it's important to talk to him and let him know that worrying about money isn't his responsibility and that he shouldn't feel like he has to carry that burden. Sweet kid.
Not only is the MLCer a true alien creature but they have lost all empathy and common sense..
I am so sorry NLW. ((( )))
Sitting on the sofa on this cold winter night with my dog wrapped tightly across my lap and my 2 kids sitting next to me watching footy on TV.
I'm happy (and sad) and I got through today successfully when I thought at one stage I wouldn't, thanks to the existence of this place and the ability to share my sorrow and confusion with people who care. Thanks for looking in, verb and needgrace. Your kindness and concern makes all the difference.
Thankful that I didn't act out in anger and from hurt.
I'm finally starting to get somewhere in terms of being able to control myself and not trying to control others.
H came over much later than he promised S13 and helped with homework for about 20 mins.
Said he was late because a guy broke his back in the football game he was playing in this afternoon and the game was delayed until the ambulance arrived. This is the sport for which H refuses even to wear a mouthguard. Sometimes I feel like I'm in some sort of bizarre fantasy world...
The rest of the time H spent taking our (ie mine and the kids' ) dog to the dog park. At one stage he said to the dog: "Come to papa" in reference to himself.
Excuse my French, but HA effing HA.
NLW loved your reaction to "Come to papa" what a joke! He is delusional.
Glad you didnt react in anger. Its hard to know sometimes what the next move should be and its certainly critical to protect you & your childrens financial assets but always better to wait a few days and cool down before deciding what to do next.
Have you been reading LITB thread and how he is now piecing with his wife? It is an inspiration and a miracle. It is a delicate balance between detaching and always believing.
Show you kids how to behave in face of adversity. Be honest and brave. He is a fool.
It is amazing to me that you are on the other side of the world. You will always have a friend in Brooklyn. Hang in there, you are doing an incrediable job in the face of a tremendous hardship. Go easy on yourself.
(My earlier post for some reason disappeared)
I am glad you decided not to react to your H shananagians, that doesnt mean you shouldnt make protecting you & your kids financial assets a top priority. But dont call your L every time you H acts like a jerk.
Do you guys have a custody schedule? Having a set schedule has helped me tremendously. I am able to plan my own GALing cause I know I dont have the kids, I feel more in control because I am not subject to my H every whim of coming over whenever he has a second. Its really helped me detach (not completely) but its helped.
Your H telling the dog to "Come to papa" is insane. They are delusional. My H still calls me Mommy in front of the girls. They are not living in this reality, they are not living in the reality of their decision.
Hang in there. You are amazing. You can do this for the kids, show them how to be honest and brave even when faced with the biggest obstacles.
Have you been reading LITB updates. His story is very inspiring.
All our H's are delusional. My H still calls me mom in front of the kids too. Now he has been talking to OW in front of me. Blatant disrespect. Either that or he thinks I am stupid. Just take the high road. That's all you can do. But don't let him take advantage. You will know when you get to that point. I am there.
Hey bklyn,
Thanks so much for your words of encouragement and friendship.
I think of you every time I see a NY street scene on TV - and think quietly to myself, I know someone who lives there now. Makes me feel good.
I've looked at LITB's thread now - and it's very inspiring.
I hope things are going OK for you - will catch up on your thread.
best, NLW.
wh,
Yeah, this is the puzzler: Do our H's think we're stupid??
The transparent lies and crummy, pointlessly hurtful behaviour right in our faces... just another aspect of this business that I can't fathom.
I think your advice is spot on: take the high road, but don't let him take advantage.
Hope you are getting through things OK.
Thinking of you,
NLW.
Have you seen The Flight of the Concords? That first season was one of the funniest NY shows ever. Who would have thought New York and New Zealand could be so funny together. Also Bret won an Academy Award this year for music, amazing!
Bklyn,
Flight of the Conchords was one of my favourite shows - those weird kiwis are a hoot. The 'New Zealand town' episode was hysterical.
OK, Need some wise words to pull me back from getting my hopes up.
Just talked to MIL who said that H was at their house talking to FIL a little while ago and they had a big discussion about his sitch.
H apparently said: "Perhaps I should have tried harder" (i.e. to make things work).
Agonisingly, she did not get any other information from FIL about the context of what was being discussed. That family is so stitched up!
Its a good sign but your H probably has to hit rock rock bottom before he actually acts on his thoughts of trying harder. Write it down in you good signs book and ignore it.
My H also comes from a very stitched up family. Their reserve definitely contributed to my H illness since they didnt express feelings H didnt either, H kept everything bottled up, till he exploded.
Hang in there!
I love love Flight of the Concords and Bret and Jermaine are hysterical (and so is the band manager guy)
Prophetic words, Bklyn,
If my H hasn't hit rock bottom now, don't know how low it can get.
He finally gave me access to another of my bank account details (this makes 2 now, out of about 6 that are in my name). This was because it's the account that contains S13 and D16's own accounts and they wanted to get some money to buy clothes.
They had been begging him for their account details for the last 4 months and had started to argue with him about the constant "I'll find the numbers tomorrow" statements that they were getting from him.
What I found was that H had emptied the kids' accounts, and has taken substantial cash advances from my credit card account over the last few months.
I presume this is fraud/theft.
When I asked him about it he said he didn't know, but if I emailed him the details, he'd look into it. That was 2 nights ago and still no response.
In the meantime, D16 was performing numerous pieces in a school jazz concert held at a local night spot last night (including a solo).
She begged H to come and he said he would. Just beforehand, and as he dropped the kids off from school pick-up, he told me that he would not be sitting with me at the concert ( a 3-and-a-half-hour event).
I made the silly mistake of expressing my thought that this would make it very awkward for D16 - as all of her school friends and their parents whom we have known for the last 13 yrs would be in the room, seated at tables having dinner and watching the show.
For H and I to be there and not to sit together would stand out like a sore thumb.
I stupidly tried to point out that we weren't arguing, that we were getting on well together, and that we had just been sitting, as we did every evening on the couch, talking happily about a number of things, and would he please consider if he could just sit with D16 and I for the concert for her sake.
He went ballistic and blurted out that, in the next day or two, I'd be receiving a copy of his application for a court hearing date to finalise a financial settlement between us. Then he left.
He came to the concert and I saw him lurking in a dark corner by the bar speaking to no-one, looking anguished, and texting repeatedly on his phone. He left after about 30 mins and missed D16's solo and subsequent performances.
Weird thing is that I can't for the life of me work out how he thinks we can have a court hearing to determine splitting finances given that he's refused to give me ANY details of our financial arrangements.
He seems to think he can just apply to be given 50% of everything I own, claim that his businesses are worth virtually nothing, forget about the massive debts he has incurred and that I am now liable for, and that the judge will just award him what he is asking for.
And what about the obvious evidence of his theft of money from my account, from our family trust, and from his children? How does he think this will look in court?
So very strange....
NLW- echoing ...do they really think we are that stupid???? I remember my H texting OW in front of me and just smiling and looking smug. Anyway...
Re: the concert. Last year our good friend's daughter was graduating from high school and we attended it. He sat the whole time texting looking miserable. I presume she was giving him grief for not being with her. Good. Let her torment him. Let him see the grass is not greener and that the place he is choosing to be in right now is a bubble waiting to pop.
Thinking of you.
What I found was that H had emptied the kids' accounts, and has taken substantial cash advances from my credit card account over the last few months.
I presume this is fraud/theft.
When I asked him about it he said he didn't know, but if I emailed him the details, he'd look into it. That was 2 nights ago and still no response.
........................................
And what about the obvious evidence of his theft of money from my account, from our family trust, and from his children? How does he think this will look in court?
So very strange....
NLW,
I am sorry I haven't checked in with you in awhile. We've been busy getting ready for camps and other summer activities at our home.
I have been catching up on your sitch, and I am just appalled that in addition to taking money from you, your husband is also taking money from your kids' accounts. I am so very sorry.
If I were in your shoes, I'd set a hard and fast boundary regarding finances asap. He is threatening you with getting a court date to settle finances? I'd have told him, "THANK YOU." And then I would go about getting the court date myself, because I seriously doubt he's going to follow through.
I know you may feel like officially separating finances is another nail in the coffin, but remember...just because you have separated finances doesn't mean you won't get back together. All it means is that you are protecting yourself and your children for now.
If you do not trust your husband to make sound decisions regarding your personal money, your shared money and the kids' money, take that power away from him.
Stay strong, NLW! You're a smart and awesome woman and mom. I am confident you will make the right decisions for your family.
Take care, ncl
Thanks guys, I really appreciate your feedback.
ncl,
I'm hoping the accumulating evidence about his financial fraudulence will make his claims against my assets null and void. The amounts that I stand to gain when his claims are thrown out are major in relation to the amounts he's filching at the moment.
Busting - the "bubble waiting to pop" metaphor is so accurate!
Last night we got another big strain on the surface tension of our existence.
H is about to leave for a holiday weekend interstate (with the home wrecker, I presume).
I've asked him to help out with money before he leaves - as S13 is going to camp before H returns and needs serious cold-weather gear. My cheque account and credit cards have been run down so far that I no longer have money for food and petrol. My next pay cheque is a week away.
We also have several major bills that are overdue for rates and credit cards.
So BIG pressure on H to come up with some money to keep his family going.
But it seems there is none.
He came over last night to help the kids with homework - and even let me drive his car (it was blocking mine in the drive way) to the shop to get food for dinner (and gave me $100 cash when I said I was broke). This was a small miracle in terms of what he's allowed me to do previously.
Then he left, all very amicable.
I went to put my car in the garage and noticed that the engine was making a loud banging noise.
I called H to ask if he could take the kids to school in the morning as the car was undrivable.
He went ballistic again.
Told me it was my fault I had no car. That I should have bought myself a new one by now (with what, I asked?) , and that he would not be driving the kids around unless they lived with him (he SAYS he lives in a rented room at a single man's house). He said I should drive it to the workshop to get it fixed. I pointed out that I had no money to do that.
Then I said "Thank you H, Bye", and hung up.
I called MIL and asked her help in getting the kids to school tomorrow.
About 5 mins later there was a loud knocking on the door and H burst in and shoved the keys of our other car (the luxury car he has commandeered for himself) at me. Told me he would take 'my' car, and that we were now another $10,000 down the drain and that it was all my fault for driving the car into the ground.
He said he was SO ANGRY.
Then he roared off at a 100mph down the driveway (with the car making a terrible noise).
This morning, I realised I'd left my work car-park permit in the car he'd taken, so texted him to ask if I could come over and pick it up.
He responded with some half-assed story about it already being in the workshop (at 7am!) and that he'd bring the permit over to me.
Seems he just can't bring himself to admit to us that he's living with the home- wrecker these days and not with his 'mate'.
Another 'why' question that I need to get out of my system: Why can't he tell me that he's living with her?
If he doesn't want to be married to me any more, why the need to keep it such a big secret?
His bubble just has to burst soon, I think. A little worried about what he will do when it does - he really seems to have no way out of this disaster.
You jut have to pray and mediate as much as you can. Dont get in his and way protect yourself.
Hang in there
I agree-- don't get in his way. Let him do this all by himself. This is his path he chose to walk. And no reason to ask why- because even if you did he probably wouldn't be able to answer it himself right now.
Hi guys,
I really need some help tonight.
I know most of you have already gone through this - and I know it's part of the script, but it still hurts to have it confirmed.
I got a text from H today saying that he'd just seen my best friend and her husband in the city that he travelled to this long weekend "for business".
I texted my friend and she regretfully spilled the beans - H was there with OW (from my friend's description of the woman he was with) and they were shopping up a storm.
H left me here with no money for food and petrol - I had to go to his parents and ask for some cash to get by.
Can't understand why he would text me to announce that he'd seen my friend.
I suspect he wants me to know but can't face being the one to tell me.
Not sure what to do next either.
Two possibilities i suppose: Continue on the current path of keeping the road home paved and smooth and living my changes.
Drawing a clear boundary: No contact now. If he has chosen OW so be it. That means nothing more to do with me. But how do S13 and D16 fit into this equation? I'd like to say no contact with them either - i.e. leave us all alone if this is what you've decided to do.
I think the latter would pretty much be just my anger coming thru - i.e. get out you lowlife scum bag; go be with your whore.
I think of people like AliSuddenly, ncl, and so many others who have had to put up with the same thing... and who have reconciled.
I'll go back to read DR AGAIN, and try to remind myself not to worry about OW... but how I HATE her. She knowingly preyed on him when he was so down about being a failure and suffering from depression and mood swings. And she was a friend. I can't wish them happiness; only terrible things....
I obviously still have a long way to go.
Do your best not to get too emotional and come up with a game plan. I always feel better when I have a program.
My suggestions:
1. Go as dark as possible and put him on a schedule with the kids. Every other weekend and school night a week.
2. Eliminate him from your life financially. Speak to a lawyer, accountant who ever and sever your financial ties ASAP.
I know it is awful the thought of this OW but I really believe they need to fulfill this fantasy, not all sexual in order to get to the other side.
Please hang in there.
NLW ((( )))
I have complete empathy with you re: OW. She at one time was my friend ( I helped her through break ups, held a surprise bday party for her...) anyway, I have not considered her a friend for years and in fact became quite weary and suspicious of her interactions with my H even before the EA/PA began.
Anyway- what I want to say NC has definitely helped me gain perspective, control and self esteem after over a tear of constant rejection, belittling and being lied to.
With the kids it has been tricky. Like you I wanted full cut off..but that is just anger reacting and really not fair to the kids.
So instead I have been trying to just stop facilitating his relationship with the children. Parent conferences at school, he is on the same mailing list as me with the appointment time, no need to follow up. School recital? Again he gets the same information as me regarding time and place..no need for me to do anything.
He wants to show up its his choice. He wants to call? itshis choice. My kids want to speak to him? No problem. He wants to speak to them. Fine. Just text me the time so i can make sure they are available.
My DB coach suggested that I can send an email every now and then, if relevant, with something significant or cute that has happened to them with a short message like ' look how cute!' or something like that.
I have done it three times in the past month. With no expectations. And it has been fine. In fact the last time my son spoke to H son said 'daddy I got a certificate at the end of the school year' and H was able to respond with knowledge because I sent him a picture of that. It made my son happy, to know his daddy saw his accomplishment so it was worth it.
I think the key is NO EXPECTATIONS.
Remember, the H should not have the honour of having any part of you, while he is giving himself to another.
Thinking of you
Echoing Bklynmom
I too believe they have to fulfil this fantasy to get to the otherside. Or else they will always wonder.
please, please protect yourself and your kids financially. having financial security will make it easier for you to detach. you will have less pain and fear that way.
((()))
NLW,
I am going to smack you squarely with a 2x4. And it is because I care about you and want you to prevail over your life crisis.
I wrote you the below in JANUARY, echoing things I had written to you in OCTOBER AND NOVEMBER. Please re-read it in light of your current situation. Again, the path to prevailing either yourself or with a reconciliation is the same -- pull away from him (or even PUSH him away as a boundary enforcement of how you deserve to be treated) and move on with your own life.
1) WAS pilfering your and the kids' finances because he has run through his own
2) WAS now living with OW (rather than his mate)
3) WAS no longer as engaged with family as in January (which was less then in October)
4) WAS now traveling with OW
Here is what I wrote you:
The nub of the problem is that you are still not accepting and validating and
moving forward with your life (LRT-like) per his stated intention not to be with you.
You are still trying to maximize contact between the two of you, inviting him to activities during your time with daughter, and trying to
strategize the circumstances under which you can "win him back."This approach is doomed to fail and is not DBing. In fact, your WAS pulling further away ("we don't want to give the kids the wrong impression") is evidence that the approach you are pursuing is not working and that the bond between the two of you is slipping away over time. He also is not calling you for coffee and other activities as frequently as he was back in October or spending as much time around the house. [b/]If YOU had dropped the bomb on HIM back in October ("yeah you're right, it's best for me if you don't come around OR CALL me anymore, I want to set up separate visitation and financial arrangements, so I can move on with my life,"[/b] it would, at best, have been more effective than if you drop it on him now, and, at worst, you would be farther along in your life and the process of moving on from someone who doesn't know your value.
Perhaps it is not too late.Your sitch has not substantively improved since when I wrote the below to you in early November:
Originally Posted By: bustorama
Try NOT to think about this from a strategic perspective ("will this or won't this bring him back") because then you are not emotionally detached from his choices, and you can get into a spiral of mind reading.
Instead,
think whether or not the situation works for you. Are you OK with being treated as a faux-W at your ex-H's convenience? For a ex-H to come in and out of your emotional life at his whim and on his schedule? For an ex-H to occupy much of your daily emotional time -- when will there be time for you to heal and move on?Because, in your WAH's mind, he is your ex-H at this time. If he was seeking rapproachment with you, or begins to say things like, I am glad we are getting along better now, I enjoy spending time with you more, I like being with YOU and the kids, I miss being with YOU, etc., then I would say to re-examine your doubts and keep things up. But from his words ('now that we are separated') and actions (sleeping away at night), he still sees you two as not a couple, separated, broken up, finished.
I wonder if your discomfort and annoyance at the situation is a sign that you are allowing your WAH to cross a boundary on how you want to be treated in your relationship with your H. If it bothers you, it is more than fine to communicate and enforce that boundary the next time he suggests coffee, drinks or another day together.
You know, H. I really enjoyed spending time with you when we were together, it was great. But, this situation isn't working for me. I mean, we're broken up, but you are here all the time during the day.
Because we are separated and not living as a married couple, I need more space from you.Again, this in no way means you should be hostile to him. Continue to be warm, attractive, HOT, NLW. But, communicate and enforce that boundary to him, and be more mysterious and less available. Establish more of the space he says he wants by moving on with your life.
and also here:
Originally Posted By: NLW
He said again tonight that getting back together is just not going to happen.
Bustorama:
Accept this is how he feels, and act accordingly.
Originally Posted By: NLW
He said that that was the turning point where I made it clear I was no longer involved in his life/business, and now I have to get along as best I can without him.
I tried to reason with him and pointed out that I had bank-rolled his business for 15 years prior to this, and that i had to think of trying to keep the house and what was best for the kids. I also pointed out that even his parents, whom I'd contacted for advice on what to do, had advised me not to give him my salary cheque. He looked surprised to hear this, but in the end, it cut no ice with him at all.
Bustorama:
You know why? Because you are still arguing with/antagonist to his point of view. You didn't validate his point of view/feelings. Try to see his point of view and accept it (not necessarily agree with it).
You know, H, I can totally see how you would feel that way given what you said. Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking trying to convince you otherwise. I hear that you want a life separate from me, so I am going to focus on myself and my life without you.
Originally Posted By: NLW
In his mind, we are over, with no possibility of change. We are just no good together, yadda yadda yadda.
Bustorama:
So now it's been reconfirmed. When he comes by, it is not (in his conscious mind) with an eye towards getting back with you.
Do you want an ex filling your days?Originally Posted By: NLW
I asked how he wanted to proceed from here and he said we should just keep on being separated. I'm pretty much over this idea. It's just too hard to do. Every day another abandonment, another hurt, and recently, constant irritability from him.
Bustorama:
That's right, you don't deserve to be treated like this. He has no incentive for the status quo to change. He likes things just fine the way they are where he has the parts of you and the family in this faux marriage. Do you like things the way they are? You are worth more. =)Originally Posted By: NLW
They don't deserve to have this storm break over their lives. It makes me feel so sick and sad.
Busstorama:
Yes, I get it hurts.
Model for them how you might like them to act if the same thing happens to them in their lives.Originally Posted By: NLW
but I really don't think there's any hope for us to get back together.
Bustorama:
Try to
focus on your self, not the R or him or his actions.Thanks guys, I really appreciate your feedback.
ncl,
I'm hoping the accumulating evidence about his financial fraudulence will make his claims against my assets null and void. The amounts that I stand to gain when his claims are thrown out are major in relation to the amounts he's filching at the moment.
Busting - the "bubble waiting to pop" metaphor is so accurate!
Last night we got another big strain on the surface tension of our existence.
H is about to leave for a holiday weekend interstate (with the home wrecker, I presume).
I've asked him to help out with money before he leaves - as S13 is going to camp before H returns and needs serious cold-weather gear. My cheque account and credit cards have been run down so far that I no longer have money for food and petrol. My next pay cheque is a week away.
We also have several major bills that are overdue for rates and credit cards.
So BIG pressure on H to come up with some money to keep his family going.
But it seems there is none.
He came over last night to help the kids with homework - and even let me drive his car (it was blocking mine in the drive way) to the shop to get food for dinner (and gave me $100 cash when I said I was broke). This was a small miracle in terms of what he's allowed me to do previously.
Then he left, all very amicable.
I went to put my car in the garage and noticed that the engine was making a loud banging noise.
I called H to ask if he could take the kids to school in the morning as the car was undrivable.
He went ballistic again.
Told me it was my fault I had no car. That I should have bought myself a new one by now (with what, I asked?) , and that he would not be driving the kids around unless they lived with him (he SAYS he lives in a rented room at a single man's house). He said I should drive it to the workshop to get it fixed. I pointed out that I had no money to do that.
Then I said "Thank you H, Bye", and hung up.
I called MIL and asked her help in getting the kids to school tomorrow.
About 5 mins later there was a loud knocking on the door and H burst in and shoved the keys of our other car (the luxury car he has commandeered for himself) at me. Told me he would take 'my' car, and that we were now another $10,000 down the drain and that it was all my fault for driving the car into the ground.
He said he was SO ANGRY.
Then he roared off at a 100mph down the driveway (with the car making a terrible noise).
This morning, I realised I'd left my work car-park permit in the car he'd taken, so texted him to ask if I could come over and pick it up.
He responded with some half-assed story about it already being in the workshop (at 7am!) and that he'd bring the permit over to me.
Seems he just can't bring himself to admit to us that he's living with the home- wrecker these days and not with his 'mate'.
Another 'why' question that I need to get out of my system: Why can't he tell me that he's living with her?
If he doesn't want to be married to me any more, why the need to keep it such a big secret?
His bubble just has to burst soon, I think. A little worried about what he will do when it does - he really seems to have no way out of this disaster.
Test, my other post isnt appearing
Oh, there it is, so my recommendation would still be:
1) Enforce a boundary (if it is a boundary of yours) that you will not have someone that is cheating on you (or not valuing your M/R) as a part of your life. No accepting visits, calls, or contact from him. "I need space from you."
2) Legal custody arrangement (he needs to pull his weight of kids OR be paying you regularly in kind)
3) Legal financial separation (to protect yourself and kids)
4) If you are up to it, file for D against him as your ultimate boundary enforcement of how you deserve to be treated.
None of the above is vindictive, mean or angry. He can interpret it as so if he wishes. It is a boundary enforcement of how you wish and deserve to be treated in a marital R.
The more that it is YOU pulling away from him, you rejecting him as unacceptable to you, the more likely he is to come back. And, if he doesn't, it is truly his loss, and you will emerge ready to continue your life open to meeting someone who values you, your family, and your M.
I am sooooo soooo sorry for you in this situation. It is indeed painful, and I would say allow yourself to feel what you feel and acknowledge and validate yourself. I think that's really important. I would do no contact for a long time. He's not giving you anything anyway, so it's no major loss.
I know some people here don't advocate dating, but I personally see no problem with it. You're heart might not be in it, but dating/flirting really does help the self-esteem.
Be as selfish as you can possibly be - in spirit, mind and body!
The breathing exercise is so perfect for allowing - thanks again Zig
1) Enforce a boundary (if it is a boundary of yours) that you will not have someone that is cheating on you (or not valuing your M/R) as a part of your life. No accepting visits, calls, or contact from him. "I need space from you."
2) Legal custody arrangement (he needs to pull his weight of kids OR be paying you regularly in kind)
3) Legal financial separation (to protect yourself and kids)
4) If you are up to it, file for D against him as your ultimate boundary enforcement of how you deserve to be treated.
None of the above is vindictive, mean or angry. He can interpret it as so if he wishes. It is a boundary enforcement of how you wish and deserve to be treated in a marital R.
The more that it is YOU pulling away from him, you rejecting him as unacceptable to you, the more likely he is to come back. And, if he doesn't, it is truly his loss, and you will emerge ready to continue your life open to meeting someone who values you, your family, and your M.
I agree with all of the above. Just because you establish and enforce boundaries does NOT mean you are not leaving the path home paved and smooth. Instead, it means you are standing up for yourself and for your children. It is showing your husband that you deserve respect and honor. If he can't honor that, then he isn't good enough for you!!!
In my case, until I established and enforced boundaries, my marriage didn't improve and our reconciling efforts failed. If my husband had been unwilling to respect and honor my boundaries...number one being no contact in any form for any reason with ow ever again...then I would be divorced by now. I was tired of living that life.
I'm very, very sorry you are going through this. When my husband was having his affair, he was the one to file for divorce. However, unlike the times before, I didn't drag my feet in getting to a lawyer to respond. When he realized I meant business this time and was sick to death of putting up with his bs, he took a long, hard look at what he was doing and what his life without me as his wife would be like. I took back my power, and I can't tell you how good that felt. Yes, it was scary at first, but it was a lot less scary than having HIM in control of my life while he was carrying on with that ow!
Your husband is not being a man who deserves a great lady like you. Hang in there, draw strength from your children and TAKE BACK YOUR POWER.
Hugs, ncl
Thanks everyone, so much, for your feedback.
I'm still a bit shell-shocked to have had my worst fears confirmed - that h is in a full relationship with OW.
I thought I had been doing pretty well detaching from him in my day-to-day life. I had been moving on with my life and was not pursuing. At least in my head, things had changed for me - I have cut many of the ties and was interacting with him differently.
But obviously I need to take action again on the finances - that and the kids is our only connection, really, now.
I feel like I really need a DB coach, the line between keeping the road home paved and smooth and going NC still confuses me.
Often, I read here about DB coaches advising people to be nicer to their spouses, to do things that show them what they're missing, and so on. The advice from posters however often seems to be different - it's more like, until you tell your spouse you're done with them, they won't think about returning.
I feel like I know my H - I believe he does want to come home but is too frightened, ashamed, and believes he is too much of a bad person to return.
He has to run from the ruin that he's caused to us, and as he said recently, he is with OW because she is just the sort of person that he deserves (i.e., they are both bad people).
H texted the kids repeatedly yesterday with messages of how much he loved them and missed them. He sent them hugs over and again. It wasn't smarmy, just heart-wrenching really. I guess the fantasy holiday hasn't really worked out too well (and only 2 days in).
As MIL says, he just seems so lost.
He really was a nice guy before all this financial disaster happened and he lost the ability to cope.
I'll keep reading what you have all advised and try to work towards it.
Busto, in particular, I know you must be at your wits end with me.
I thought I had taken your advice onboard - I'd detached, moved on, and changed my mental attitude - but obviously I am still trying to make him see what he's missing with me in ways that are not working out so well.
I'll keep paying attention and valuing this great advice I'm receiving. Please bear with me, this is taking me some time to work out....
ncl, I particularly like the idea of taking my power back. Boy, do I need that!
Best, NLW
ncl,
I particularly wanted to reply to say thank you for keeping on helping me out.
I think of you often and pray that things are going well for your family.
That you come back to check up on me like this means so much. You've a been a great support for my whole journey - your's was one of the first replies to my initial post and right then I knew that I had met someone special (your kind words made me cry).
Hearing from you over the months about your own sitch in parallel circumstances has helped me keep going.
So, thanks for reinforcing Busto's words with your own experience. It all helps get things through my thick skull..
I need to enforce boundaries, I need to enforce boundaries. I need not to be so afraid that I'll drive him away; he is already gone.
He is gone and there's nothing I can do about that.
But, here comes my 'but': He did look ashamed and embarrassed when our friend caught his eye as he was sashaying around with OW on their trip. He didn't speak to our friend but just looked away, hoping she hadn't recognised him, apparently.
Just thought I'd throw that in to prove that my excuses for him - that he is ashamed and feels guilty about what he's doing - are valid ones that have been driving my attempts to detach but remain in contact.
I'm trying to walk the line of showing him that he has not gone so far as to be at the point of no return. That I do not consider his actions to be so shameful that he can never come back. It's all about shame and failure for him, I'm sure, so I am trying to navigate this path, if that makes any sense.
I need to enforce boundaries. I need not to be so afraid that I'll drive him away; he is already gone.
He is gone and there's nothing I can do about that.
^^^THIS. HE is the only person that can and should control himself.
I'm trying to walk the line of showing him that he has not gone so far as to be at the point of no return. That I do not consider his actions to be so shameful that he can never come back.
^^^
NOT THIS. Do you see how the second quote is incompatible with the boldfaced part of the first quote? By "showing" him things, making it clear that "doors are open," you are devaluing yourself and your boundaries, trying to control him, and also implicitly disrespecting him as being incapable of fixing himself, his bad choices, and his own emotions.
He is a grown man. He KNOWS that what he is doing is wrong. That he expreses shame, evasion, deception is evidence of this. Do not excuse, enable or minimize his choices. He is all powerful to choose differently and is more likely to do so if he is starkly confronted with the reality of his choices (per ncl's messages). And, like ncl said, if he doesn't, then he does not deserve you and all the loyalty and love of which you are so clearly capable.
It's all about shame and failure for him, I'm sure,
You are mindreading and projecting here, in part based on what he has spewed to you.
You can reject his behavior without rejecting him and closing the door irrecovably on your relationship. It's up to him to deal with his own shame, and he can if he chooses to -- it is not your responsibility to manage his emotions.
If you enforce a boundary that says something to the effect of, "H, I loved when we were together as a couple and as a family. I am sorry for my share of mistakes in our M. But, I am not ok with having a relationship of any kind with someone who
IS ACTIVELY cheating on me and, in doing so,
is being disrespectful to me and our kids. I am worth more than that. In light of
what is going on, I would like to set up up formal custody arrangements for the kids as well as legal separation of our finances. Etc. etc.
I know it's scary as hell, but it is setting yourself free and taking control of your life back.
HE is the only person that can and should control himself.
[quote=NLW]I'm trying to walk the line of showing him that he has not gone so far as to be at the point of no return. That I do not consider his actions to be so shameful that he can never come back.
^^^
NOT THIS. Do you see how the second quote is incompatible with the boldfaced part of the first quote? By "showing" him things, making it clear that "doors are open," you are devaluing yourself and your boundaries, trying to control him, and also implicitly disrespecting him as being incapable of fixing himself, his bad choices, and his own emotions.
Yes Busto, now I'm starting to see! Phew, thanks for having the patience to explain things in this detailed way to me. I really am thick in relation to this principle!
I have definitely been implicitly disregarding/ignoring/disrespecting what he has been telling me. And this is probably the nub of why he left in the first place. He is a grown man. He KNOWS that what he is doing is wrong. That he expreses shame, evasion, deception is evidence of this. Do not excuse, enable or minimize his choices. He is all powerful to choose differently and is more likely to do so if he is starkly confronted with the reality of his choices (per ncl's messages). And, like ncl said, if he doesn't, then he does not deserve you and all the loyalty and love of which you are so clearly capable.
Again, this way of explaining it makes sense to me. He has not been starkly confronted with any reality in relation to his choices so far, because i have been facilitating/pandering/accommodating.It's all about shame and failure for him, I'm sure,
You are mindreading and projecting here, in part based on what he has spewed to you.
You can reject his behavior without rejecting him and closing the door irrecovably on your relationship. It's up to him to deal with his own shame, and he can if he chooses to -- it is not your responsibility to manage his emotions.
If you enforce a boundary that says something to the effect of, "H, I loved when we were together as a couple and as a family. I am sorry for my share of mistakes in our M. But, I am not ok with having a relationship of any kind with someone who
IS ACTIVELY cheating on me and, in doing so,
is being disrespectful to me and our kids. I am worth more than that. In light of
what is going on, I would like to set up up formal custody arrangements for the kids as well as legal separation of our finances. Etc. etc.
I know it's scary as hell, but it is setting yourself free and taking control of your life back.
We all love you NLW and I would be happy to start a club for us called the Sustained Stupidity Club
It's human nature, not stupidity. Goes against the grain for most of us to do it. Way out of our comfort zones. Believe me, I get that, NLW =)
but that's no excuse for sustained stupidity (otherwise known as keeping on doing what doesn't work)
I'm am borrowing this phrase. If we ever met in RL I'll buy you a beer. If you are in AA. I'll buy the guy next to you one.
Bklyn,
The Sustained Stupidity Club- LOL
We'd need to vote in a President and VP.
All nominations gleefully received.
Jack,
I love beer, and I'm not in AA yet, so you get the first and I'll get the next.
Where I come from we think we make one of the best beers in the world (but doesn't everyone?)
Cheers,
NLW
Hi guys,
Just after a bit of advice to deal with a recurring interactional quirk that's giving me pause.
When H rings me (almost every day) he ALWAYS starts off by saying
"Sorry to bother you"
Then there is always a big gap, because I just don't know how to respond to this opening.
I know it's a little issue, but I know that a lot of others have heard this from their WASs.
So what would a DB coach say about responding, I wonder.
Just saying nothing and waiting for him to get on and say whatever it is that he wants to say doesn't work - it creates tangible awkwardness in the call from the get-go.
Any ideas?
Is he bothering you? Maybe ask a question back to see if you can hear and validate how he's feeling, such as, "Why do you think you're bothering me?"
Hi Ad,
He's not bothering me with these calls - but my problem is that I don't know if he's saying this because he believes he is (which is a disconnect/communication problem between us: i.e. that is NOT how I feel about talking to him) or if it's just a social nicety to smooth over the awkwardness HE feels about having to contact me (but then again, he doesn't really HAVE to contact me).
Maybe I should just say "It's OK" in a very quick, matter-of-fact way and stop trying to mind-read.
Really, the only thing that bothers me about his calls is the fact that he always starts them off with this phrase! And that it puts me on the back-foot every time.
It's probably just standard, passive-aggressive script. But then again, if so, how best to respond?
Here I go, analysing the arse out of everything again.
i think ad's way is good. if he keeps hearing this question, he will have to come up with answers or stop. either way, you'll be better off.
i'll join the club, few sure!!
ad's right, NLW - just ask him
the other day - i got sick and tired of h's calling but not leaving a message - it's a clear sign when he's withdrawing more. so the last time he did it i just asked outright - why don't you leave a message - i don't know if i'm meant to call you back or not. after that he's left messages
i went through a long phase of not calling back if he didn't leave a message and not saying anything (the equivalent of you not responding and letting there be an awkward break) and i don't think it worked all that well.
this other way - of being a bit direct, but not challenging , seems to be more effective.
i think now when i don't feel like pussy footing around him anymore or walking eggshells, i don't feel so fearful of being a bit more direct and straight forward.
most of this kind of stuff smacks of passive aggressive to me, and i for one am plumb sick of it
ooh do i sound ratty tonight!
good for me!!
(( )) NLW - i feel for you
zig
Hi guys, thanks for popping in with some good advice.
I'm really down today in relation to some new financial info that I just found out.
As you know, my H and I are struggling to cover the mortgage, credit card and school fee debts that we have. They are pretty much crippling. I have had to borrow money from my parents and inlaws to get by.
Today I discovered that in the last few months, H has overdrawn massively on all the credit cards in his name. He is spending like there's no tomorrow - literally!
And what is he spending on? - high-price restaurant meals, expensive chocolates, bottles of champagne (not to mention flights interstate and hotel accommodation).
It is sheer madness. I suspect that he has actually lost touch with reality- not just in an MLC way. But then it occurred to me that he might be trying to go bankrupt. Just before he files for D - as a strategy to avoid having to pay half of any of our shared debt.
I'm really at a loss as to how to deal with his spending. In a sense, it's none of my business - we are separated. BUT, we have such large outstanding debts that are incurring interest rates above 20%.
Perhaps this is still just what mlc creates and nothing more (i.e. not a clinical condition, not a cold-blooded attempt to void paying in the longer term).
So very confused and unsure.
I might just answer with a "No bother. What's up?". There's no sense mind reading why he starts out the conversation that way, but I think by answering in a quick, no-nonsense manner you may be able to get on with the conversation without any awkward pauses.
In case you aren't already doing this, I would also suggest letting his calls go to voice mail more often than not and then returning his calls later that morning, during lunch hour, etc. Let him wonder why you aren't jumping every time he rings.
Hope you are hanging in there okay! ncl
Hi guys, thanks for popping in with some good advice.
I'm really down today in relation to some new financial info that I just found out.
As you know, my H and I are struggling to cover the mortgage, credit card and school fee debts that we have. They are pretty much crippling. I have had to borrow money from my parents and inlaws to get by.
Today I discovered that in the last few months, H has overdrawn massively on all the credit cards in his name. He is spending like there's no tomorrow - literally!
And what is he spending on? - high-price restaurant meals, expensive chocolates, bottles of champagne (not to mention flights interstate and hotel accommodation).
It is sheer madness. I suspect that he has actually lost touch with reality- not just in an MLC way. But then it occurred to me that he might be trying to go bankrupt. Just before he files for D - as a strategy to avoid having to pay half of any of our shared debt.
I'm really at a loss as to how to deal with his spending. In a sense, it's none of my business - we are separated. BUT, we have such large outstanding debts that are incurring interest rates above 20%.
Perhaps this is still just what mlc creates and nothing more (i.e. not a clinical condition, not a cold-blooded attempt to void paying in the longer term).
So very confused and unsure.
Just saw this post after I responded to your other one. This ^^^^^ is why I've been encouraging you to get to your attorney NOW to get a financial agreement in order. Giving 2x4s is not my typical nature, but in my opinion, he's going to spend your money, your kids' money, your parents' money and his parents' money until there is NOTHING left! You need to stop him NOW with the assistance of the court. Let him spend ow's money on that crazy, unrealistic lifestyle they are living. As I used to have to say with regard to my husband and his ow..,you may be taking her to the Four Seasons with money like it grows on trees now, but real life isn't the Four Seasons. Real life is a mortgage (or 2), cars, food on the table, bills, education, etc.
You are a very smart woman, NLW. Please do make the most stupid mistake of your life and let him continue to break you. Again, just because you set a legally binding financial agreement does note mean you cannot one day reconcile. It just means you are taking care of your kids and you now.
Please don't delay!!!
NLW,
I have to agree with NCL 100% on this -- I would go see a lawyer TOMORROW and ask for their assistance with this situation to protect yourself. You might also ask them to help you with debt consolidation so you can beat down that interest rate -- that alone will kill you. You absolutely do not want to be liable for any of his current spending, and you may want to put a lien on any assets he owns (if possible) so that if he does declare bankruptcy you're first in line. I really wouldn't wait until Monday to deal with that. Any setback it causes in your sitch you'll recover from -- the financial situation will be harder to recover!
Accuray
NLW, it also seems that your H is wildly out of control, maybe unstable right now. He goes from nice to raging in an instant. This shows that he is not in control of his emotions and that can lead to bad things happening. Money issues are often a trigger.
Can you arrange that he doesn't come around when there is no other adult there? I know you will say you don't want to or that's not my H, but it's better to be safe....
I'm worried for your physical safety.
Take care.
Hi NLW ((( ))) please take care of yourself. The advice from these guys is gold. You have ALL of our support. Have faith.
NLW, I'll echo what everyone else has said. Please take care of yourself, and protect yourself financially if you can. Seems like your H is out of control, and his short term craziness could cause you long term issues.
Checking on you.....take care! Ncl
Hi ncl, thanks for checking.
I'm buried under a pile of lumber and feel like it's a good place to hide.