So I figured it was time for a new subject header. The old one really didn't seem to fit anymore given where (and to a lesser extent who) I was when I started it.
Unlearning - the beginner's mind. I stopped looking at my w for answers and started looking at me. I opened my eyes to the fact that what was modeled for me as a child doesn't work for my R with my w. I rejected what didn't work and continue to do my best to work on what does.
Learning. I listened for a change - not just to what my wife had been saying, but to people here on the boards that have walked this journey before me. In doing so, I realized that what I thought was important wasn't as important....what I thought was right was actually wrong.....that people need to be loved in the way they need to be loved - not the way I thought they needed it.
Doing it differently. Now, I stop and think more before I speak. I try to validate instead of defend, and I try to really think about my first reaction to something emotional - as it tends to be wrong a lot.
All of these things have helped save me quite a bit. I am far from being a vet or a great DB'er - but it has helped me get closer to a center. And, honestly, relative to where I was 7 or 8 months ago it has vastly improved the conditions between my w and me. Sure, the D is still pending - but we are listening to one another. We are trying to communicate more openly, and I am trying to use new skills to set the table for a better future - hopefully with her, but if not - with someone else.
So.....what's been going on the last few weeks?
Not a lot has changed. We continue to talk, text and e-mail. It's all friendly, kind and supportive - never anything negative. Can't remember if I said this is my last post or not - but she texted "I am sorry for all of the pain I have caused you" out of the blue two weeks ago. I know that is not saying "let's get back together" - but at least it is honest communication. She has also told me that I am handsome and a good father. I needed the ego boost - frankly. I am not crowing about it - but it just kinda soothed some of the pain and worthlessness I had been carrying around.
We continue to go to church. Sometimes she isn't there - but I go anyway and take our son. It's a good way to "share" him when the other doesn't have custody that weekend.
She is opening up to me more. Today she shared with me that she is having a hard time hearing about people's second pregnancies, seeing families, seeing people post info about babies/siblings/families. She has two good friends that arrived in town tonight and she said she has a certain amount of angst there because the can't really relate to her life right now. That they have their families/homes/lives in tact. Again, it's no symbol that we are getting back together anytime soon - but it's good that she is opening up to me little by little. I guess that's what happens when you just decided to listen and validate. I wish I would have known earlier.
Our remaining embryo is still an occasional topic of discussion. She still has a desire to use it (she expressed that this week) and said it something she would rather do sooner than later. I still conceptually struggle with this - doing it post-divorce. But I am keeping my mind open and not shutting her opinion out 100% - that is a 180 for me when I have a dissenting opinion.
Last weekend after dinner, she said something rather interesting. "You know, Crimson - all my life I thought I would be able to 'outsmart' the dysfunction I witnessed in my parents relationship - the lack of communication and other things - I guess I didn't". It was a nice, honest exchange about some of our shortcomings that we shared.
She has been texting pictures of the baby from his early days and we have been sharing good memories from that period. I always enjoy that - sometimes I feel as if she doesn't have a single good memory of me left in her head, but she still hold on to pictures and things. In fact, I was at her condo earlier this week dropping of S and she has one of my baby pictures (2-3 years old) hanging in his bedroom in a big frame on the wall. Not gonna lie, I was kinda touched by that.
She has been sharing work stress and other professional insecurities that she has been experiencing. I listen, validate and try to be supportive and build her up as best I can. Not in a "pursuing" way, but in a generally encouraging, reassuring way.
She has also been more forthcoming about some of the things that made her unhappy that I did after she dropped the bomb. Keep in mind that this was in my pre DB days, but I reached out to some of my friends with concerns about her and she let me know that she feels it has impacted some of those friendships and that she never would have done that to me. She said "I don't need reasons, rationalizations or excuses (from you, Crimson) - I'm just trying to work on communicating feelings, even if they are unpleasant".
So even though things aren't "great" they are better. It has required some radical changes in approach and thinking from me - and I am not quite "there" yet - but I have made a pretty big dent in the old Crimson that I think is here for good....at least I hope so. I still don't want the D, and it will be emotionally hard on me - but if it comes, it comes. I will keep working even after the gavel falls.
Tonight my anxiety comes from her friends being in town. I never really felt they liked me in the first place and I fear that it's going to turn into a "you are right to leave him...you need to start over and get a new life" kind of weekend. I KNOW that a lot of that is in my head - but I really don't want them to make matter worse in my situation, and I feel that they are capable. I have not and will not share this fear with my w, and I will "as if" should our paths happen to cross this weekend - but I do fear that I will get trashed kind of badly by them. Meh - no matter.
Hope everyone is doing well -
You pal,
Crimson
Crimson,
I was just about to pat you on the back and suggest you continue doing what you are doing, and then I see this.....
"Tonight my anxiety comes from her friends being in town. I never really felt they liked me in the first place and I fear that it's going to turn into a "you are right to leave him...you need to start over and get a new life" kind of weekend. I KNOW that a lot of that is in my head - but I really don't want them to make matter worse in my situation, and I feel that they are capable."
You've got to know that there are others who have already put a bug in your W's ear about what she should do. So why would these friends influence be any different?
You sound like you are getting better at detaching but then you allow your mind to go places that are dark and scary. Why? Let it go! Your W is an intelligent woman. She is perfectly capable of making choices for herself. Give her credit for reengaging with you in the way that she has. It she decides to recommit to the M it will be because she decided to and not because some friend told her she should.
Get rid of the negative thoughts and keep your focus.
You'll be fine!
2TP - First, let me say that I am stoked that my mind goes there from time to time and gets lost in fear and insecurity. In posting it, I am trying to adhere to my policy of being as honest as I can - though it is often embarrassing. That said, I will take an equally honest stab at answering the questions you posed.
1. Why would these friends influence be any different
I perceive it that way (perhaps erroneously) because they are her oldest friends, dating back to middle school practically. It's quite literally her inner-inner circle in many regards. They have gone out of their way before to try to set her up with other people while we were dating. So in my head (I'll repeat - in my head) I have a hard time imagining that they would be supportive of me or our marriage in these circumstances.
2. Why do I keep letting my mind go to dark scary place?
It is happening less and less, but I do get lost in my head and anxiety from time to time. Just plain old fear of the unknown future and losing my family. It has gotten better over time, but I am not 100% through it yet. Working on it.
Embarrassing to admit ^^^^, but true. Still I am proud of the progress that I have made and the work I have done so far. I have exercised a lot of the negative thoughts, but there are still elements of the divorce that I am terrified of and struggling to grasp.
The positives outweigh the negatives, but I am still trying to get the negatives out of my mind.
Crimson
W dropped by the house to drop off S so she and her friends could go to dinner yesterday evening. She came to the door and her friends stayed in the car - I think she could tell I was a little nervous. I went out into the driveway to greet them - had a nice little visit.
Later after they left w texted me from dinner and said that I "underestimate her ability to choose quality friends" and that they have no ill feelings towards me. I apologized and told her I was having a bit of a rough day (which was true). Surprisingly enough - she responded "what can I do to help?". I really didn't respond because frankly, I didn't have an answer for her. About an hour later I took S to get some ice-cream and w texted a picture of herself and her friends at dinner to me. Didn't know what to say to that either - so I didn't say anything at all. Not out of spite or anything - just didn't. I few hours later I picked up my phone to reply to the pic and my w texts "Helloooo?" at the exact same time. I set the phone right back down and didn't respond. Much later I just said "Looking good, ladies - hope the night is going well". That was it. I wasn't angry, bitter or anything - I was just in an odd funk.
For a fleeting second, I almost felt like she was concerned about my feelings. Not to sound snarky at all, but wow...that would be new if the case.
Off to church with the boy. Hope all is well.
Crimson
So I figured it was time for a new subject header. The old one really didn't seem to fit anymore given where (and to a lesser extent who) I was when I started it.
Unlearning - the beginner's mind. I stopped looking at my w for answers and started looking at me. I opened my eyes to the fact that what was modeled for me as a child doesn't work for my R with my w. I rejected what didn't work and continue to do my best to work on what does.
Learning. I listened for a change - not just to what my wife had been saying, but to people here on the boards that have walked this journey before me. In doing so, I realized that what I thought was important wasn't as important....what I thought was right was actually wrong.....that people need to be loved in the way they need to be loved - not the way I thought they needed it.
Doing it differently. Now, I stop and think more before I speak. I try to validate instead of defend, and I try to really think about my first reaction to something emotional - as it tends to be wrong a lot.
All of these things have helped save me quite a bit. I am far from being a vet or a great DB'er - but it has helped me get closer to a center. And, honestly, relative to where I was 7 or 8 months ago it has vastly improved the conditions between my w and me. Sure, the D is still pending - but we are listening to one another. We are trying to communicate more openly, and I am trying to use new skills to set the table for a better future - hopefully with her, but if not - with someone else.
So.....what's been going on the last few weeks?
Not a lot has changed. We continue to talk, text and e-mail. It's all friendly, kind and supportive - never anything negative. Can't remember if I said this is my last post or not - but she texted "I am sorry for all of the pain I have caused you" out of the blue two weeks ago. I know that is not saying "let's get back together" - but at least it is honest communication. She has also told me that I am handsome and a good father. I needed the ego boost - frankly. I am not crowing about it - but it just kinda soothed some of the pain and worthlessness I had been carrying around.
We continue to go to church. Sometimes she isn't there - but I go anyway and take our son. It's a good way to "share" him when the other doesn't have custody that weekend.
She is opening up to me more. Today she shared with me that she is having a hard time hearing about people's second pregnancies, seeing families, seeing people post info about babies/siblings/families. She has two good friends that arrived in town tonight and she said she has a certain amount of angst there because the can't really relate to her life right now. That they have their families/homes/lives in tact. Again, it's no symbol that we are getting back together anytime soon - but it's good that she is opening up to me little by little. I guess that's what happens when you just decided to listen and validate. I wish I would have known earlier.
Our remaining embryo is still an occasional topic of discussion. She still has a desire to use it (she expressed that this week) and said it something she would rather do sooner than later. I still conceptually struggle with this - doing it post-divorce. But I am keeping my mind open and not shutting her opinion out 100% - that is a 180 for me when I have a dissenting opinion.
Last weekend after dinner, she said something rather interesting. "You know, Crimson - all my life I thought I would be able to 'outsmart' the dysfunction I witnessed in my parents relationship - the lack of communication and other things - I guess I didn't". It was a nice, honest exchange about some of our shortcomings that we shared.
She has been texting pictures of the baby from his early days and we have been sharing good memories from that period. I always enjoy that - sometimes I feel as if she doesn't have a single good memory of me left in her head, but she still hold on to pictures and things. In fact, I was at her condo earlier this week dropping of S and she has one of my baby pictures (2-3 years old) hanging in his bedroom in a big frame on the wall. Not gonna lie, I was kinda touched by that.
She has been sharing work stress and other professional insecurities that she has been experiencing. I listen, validate and try to be supportive and build her up as best I can. Not in a "pursuing" way, but in a generally encouraging, reassuring way.
She has also been more forthcoming about some of the things that made her unhappy that I did after she dropped the bomb. Keep in mind that this was in my pre DB days, but I reached out to some of my friends with concerns about her and she let me know that she feels it has impacted some of those friendships and that she never would have done that to me. She said "I don't need reasons, rationalizations or excuses (from you, Crimson) - I'm just trying to work on communicating feelings, even if they are unpleasant".
So even though things aren't "great" they are better. It has required some radical changes in approach and thinking from me - and I am not quite "there" yet - but I have made a pretty big dent in the old Crimson that I think is here for good....at least I hope so. I still don't want the D, and it will be emotionally hard on me - but if it comes, it comes. I will keep working even after the gavel falls.
Tonight my anxiety comes from her friends being in town. I never really felt they liked me in the first place and I fear that it's going to turn into a "you are right to leave him...you need to start over and get a new life" kind of weekend. I KNOW that a lot of that is in my head - but I really don't want them to make matter worse in my situation, and I feel that they are capable. I have not and will not share this fear with my w, and I will "as if" should our paths happen to cross this weekend - but I do fear that I will get trashed kind of badly by them. Meh - no matter.
Hope everyone is doing well -
You pal,
Crimson
Crimson,
I've followed your sitch from the beginning, back in my lurking days long before I joined this community.
I want you to know I have learned so much from following your situation.
This is such an inspirational post. Thank you for sharing.
Hey Dory - glad my seemingly endless rambling has been able to help you in your situation. Certainly has been a long journey so far for me - inward.
Still not really sure if it will end in R with W - I hope so, but the waters are still a tad murky. Nonetheless, we are doing better than we were a few months back.
Always open to guidance!
Crimson
Probably on the verge of a posting-spree. Seems to happen when my level of anxiety raises a bit.
So things seem to be going OK in terms of us getting a long. She has even showed faint signs of caring - and DEFINITE signs of trying to improve communication. But still no signs of wanting to R much - well, that I can tell anyway. Trying to remain consistent and upbeat, but it is getting a tad more difficult as time presses on.
Gotta go meet a friend for brunch.
Crimson
So I went to dinner tonight with W and S - her idea. We had a pretty good time together - R talk came up - not my doing. She knew I was having a slightly rough weekend and she asked if it was about the D and if I ever get mad at her. I said no. She DID say that the D is probably going to happen. No shocker there, but still hard to hear.
Regarding dating and such she said "you set the bar pretty high". I asked what she meant and she said that "there aren't a lot of guys out there like you". Half joking, half not - I said that there's me sitting right here. She responded "yes, but we have major issues". She said she was open to working on them - I just said so was I.
I will never understand. How can she be so complimentary like that, that I am "so handsome", such a good father, "set the bar so high" - and yet say that the divorce is "probably" going to happen and that we have major issues. I don't think any of our problems are/were out of the ordinary for couples in our position. I guess I define "major" as something very different.
I am still sticking by my changes no matter what. And if she does not want to be with me, then I guess it is her loss. I am a good man that made stupid relationship mistakes - not out of hate, not out of malice, but because I simply did not know. It was never because of a lack of love. My heart hopes that she can see that and forgive and be willing to try again.....but I can;t control it. It breaks my heart, but there is nothing I can do.
Gonna be another long night.
Crimson
Regarding dating and such she said "you set the bar pretty high". I asked what she meant and she said that "there aren't a lot of guys out there like you". Half joking, half not - I said that there's me sitting right here. She responded "yes, but we have major issues". She said she was open to working on them - I just said so was I.
I will never understand. How can she be so complimentary like that, that I am "so handsome", such a good father, "set the bar so high" - and yet say that the divorce is "probably" going to happen and that we have major issues. I don't think any of our problems are/were out of the ordinary for couples in our position. I guess I define "major" as something very different.
Crimson
Hi Crimson,
At the risk of being 2x4'ed for focusing on the detail of what she said (!) I'd like to point out another perspective.
You are looking at the issue of what constitutes 'major' issues.
For mine, she is still in the mindset that your issues are ongoing. That is, she is saying "We have issues" (present tense).
You know, from all the work that you've been doing, that these issues are something that can be/have been changed.
She's not there yet.
And it's unlikely that you can do much more than you're doing - it's going to be a matter of time.
When she sees that the issues don't come up any more, she will start to trust that you can be together again.
But the waiting is so hard.
Interesting way to look at it, and I can see your point. I guess I just lose faith that she will ever see and believe that what I have done in terms of changing is real and not a ploy. It hurts that she seems to still have no faith in me in spite of the work that I have done. I know that it is my own fault that she doesn't trust - for all the same reasons that she is a WAW. I, in the past, have given her every reason to not believe me through my blindness and inability to see how my actions had hurt her. Some guess now I am reaping what I sowed.
I hope you are right, NLW. I hope that one day she will start to trust me again. Maybe tonight I am feeling more hopeless than normal, but it just seems like she never will again from where I am sitting right now.
Crimson
"probably" leaves a lot more room for hope than "definitely"
. And if she does not want to be with me, then I guess it is her loss. I am a good man that made stupid relationship mistakes - not out of hate, not out of malice, but because I simply did not know. It was never because of a lack of love. My heart hopes that she can see that and forgive and be willing to try again.....but I can;t control it.
Great post, Crimson.
Thanks.
I feel as though I am teetering on the edge of a backslide. Really trying to gut it out and distance myself from things.
I asked her to tell me when she reaches the point where she thinks our relationship is a true lost cause - because that is when I will give up. She responded "ditto to you".
Crimson
Gut it out, you can do it! And I say that as I feel a too am teetering on that same edge.
Hi Merlot here,
I'm not sure about the technical working of the forum but I know I need to post and hear from one of you.
These last few months are doing making me spin.
Anyone out there?
Just don't know what to do right now. I feel as though completely disappearing is the wrong thing to do. But the pain of casual, happy interactions while she is still going full speed toward D is a lot to take. It's as if one side of her is saying to me "keep working on things" while the other is saying "I am out of here!". I don't know what to believe. If she really wants to work on things and says she is open to it, why the need to go through to divorce? Why not remain separated while we work on things? What is so "magical" about divorce? Is there some sense of freedom that she is hoping to obtain? I just don't get it.
Thanks.
I feel as though I am teetering on the edge of a backslide. Really trying to gut it out and distance myself from things.
I asked her to tell me when she reaches the point where she thinks our relationship is a true lost cause - because that is when I will give up. She responded "ditto to you".
Crimson
Crimson, Hang on in there.
Remember what MWD says right at the start of DR: we might not know what will bring our Ss back, but we know for sure what will drive them further away: pressure, questions, pursuing, R talk.
Give her time. Do not backslide. The more time you give her, the more she will trust your changes.
And on this point of giving time even when it seems that the spouse has made up his/her mind that it's over, you might like to look at AliSuddenly's threads which are listed at:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2033737&page=1I've suggested this reading to others who have an MLC sitch: the genders are reversed for you, but the gist is, the WAH was a definite goner and was SO not open to R.
But finally... he came around and they ended up in piecing and had a long-awaited baby.
Ali is a great chronicler and the understanding that can be had from her posts is something that's saved my sanity.
Hope it helps you too.
Thanks, NLW. Never saw those posts before. I will review.
hi crimson - even though i'm teetering every time there is a little bomb, so i'm not the best example - and i don't know if this helps to say this, but THIS is the time when you have to have even more faith, even more trust in yourself and not lose sight of the big picture,
the less they feel our resistance (any resistance) the less they feel pressured. could you try maybe to stop thinking about the divorce thing and just keep focusing on DB'ing and your 180's etc, and everything you were doing before the d thing came up?
i'm suddenly waking up to the fact that resistance is the key to this somehow - and even though we may act as if we aren't, we "emanate" it in some way or the other and that's what they pick up on. so i'm working hard to give up any and all resistance on every level to my sitch and truly go with the flow - it is giving me a lot of peace of mind - and i hope it can give that to you also.
hang in there, and remember that even a divorce is not the end of your efforts - it's just a detail - even though a really really hard one to deal with, the real thing to focus on is continuing your DB'ing efforts. don't let the d thing override what your true feelings are about saving the r.
take care
zig
Thank you, zig. I am keeping focused on my true feelings of saving the relationship - it is without a doubt what I want. Divorce or not.
Looking back, I don't think I have resisted much of anything or questioned her decisions once I started looking inward.
One of the hardest things that I am dealing with in terms of just letting go is the financial hit I am going to take. Keep in mind, I am just venting here because I DESPERATELY need to get this out. My family is more important than money - I know that. That said, I am really struggling with losing so much from the retirement that I've worked so hard to acquire over the years....a lot of sacrifice to build for a better future together. Same deal on the stock options with my company that I worked so hard to get. All of these things I did for us, for our family - and she decides that she has lost her feelings from me and takes major chunks of all of it. I feel like I just got pushed back down the ladder even further after years of trying to be responsible and plan for tomorrow. I've even had to stop contributing to my 401K in order to keep up with the payments that I have to make to her - so that account is being cut in half and I don't even have the ability to build it back up again. She is taking vacations with S, buying a new car, clothes - and I am getting anxious just buying groceries. I know she is entitled to everything legally according to the state, but it still is hard to deal with. I worked so hard to provide for our today and tomorrow - to build our dreams - and it's all going away.
Does anyone have advice on how to cope with this? It's killing me. Let me stress again before I take a beating - I know my family is more important than money. It's just hard to work so hard for it and have it taken away.
Sorry - just trying to be honest.
Crimson
Hi- I read your post and really liked what you said on resistance and that energy. I have been working hard for a year and half to save my marriage. When my husband had major issues with intimacy and closeness. I want to save it- but i think my pushing and the energy I emitted wasn't such a help. I need to refocus- but all I can think about is a divorce:(
Every time you start to think about it turn your thoughts to something to for which you can be grateful.
I'll bet she thinks she worked just as hard as you did. As 25 says "Lost the balance sheet!"
Crimson, I went through the same type of thing with my W. Sometime before our divorce was final she made statements as to me always being in control of things. One day she told me that we could never get back together or even talk about it until she was completely out from under me, even changing her name (which she did), I never really understood those comments. Even now she looks and makes comments about how good I look and all the changes I have made. Now there is absolutely no talk about reconciling or any thing like that mind you. But I have wondered about this topic after two years on these boards and reading the same thing over and over. It is like they all drink the WAS Koolaid or something. Stay strong my friend be true to the new you. I have not waiver one bit in the new me and it feels great. Even a couple of weeks ago my Ex told me how miserable she was although I felt for her inside, I just told her that it will be ok she was having a bad day.
Scott
I know I am all over the place today, folks - so please forgive me. My head is sprinting a mile a minute.
What I am really struggling to grasp is how she can look at me and say:
"You set the bar pretty high. There aren't a lot of good guys like you out there"
"You're such a great father"
"I bet there are a million women out there that would date you"
"You are lucky to be so handsome"
And yet, be OK with going all the way through to divorce. If there was someone that possessed all of those traits AND you shared a child with them AND you both want another child - why would you be OK just tossing it all away? Maybe in her mind she isn't....I don't know. She seems to want to work on the reltaionship - but I don't know why she feels that has to be done while DIVORCED and not just separated. What is it about the actual divorce itself that is so necessary for her?
I feel like I get a lot of mixed signals. And I am struggling with how to proceed. I don't want to pull back because I feel as if that would be poorly received and the wrong thing to do - yet at the same time my mind is getting weary acting "as if" all of the time. I KNOW it's the right thing to do - there have been no fights, no arguments, no poor exchanges...we have been getting along. She just seems dead set on terminating the marriage.
Thought?
Crimson
She is testing you! She is looking for a crack in the veneer you seem to have developed since she dropped the bomb and fled for divorce. She still doesn't trust your changes which is why she makes comments about proceeding with the D.
Something struck me about one of your prior posts where you talked about her stopping by with her friends out in the car and then later telling you that she knows how to pick good friends. You didn't say it but her comment tells me that either you said or did or behaved in away that compelled your W to say what she did. She still has her doubts.
Sometimes people need to verbalize what they are thinking so that they hear it through their ears instead of their mind. I don't know what will come of this but the more you struggle with this, the harder it is going to be for your W to believe your changes are permanent and not just a show.
I know you are probably walking on egg shells trying to steer clear of hot button topics and making yourself look as attractive as possible. But, I'm interested in knowing if you have verbalized to her your feelings about this.
Remember MWD talks about "Asking for What You Want". Have you done that? Does your W really know how you feel about things? Are there things that you want to tell her but are afraid? Maybe it is time to loose the fear and speak up.
Maybe you should talk this over with your C to get a read on whether this would be productive.
2TP - Testing....is that really it? Doesn't it seem rather extreme lengths to go to for a test? Let me divorce you to see if you have really changed? If that is the case, so be it - I am not arguing that it could be a possibility. It just makes my head spin a bit that she could think (or at least VERBALIZE) so many positives with regard to who I am as a man and a father - and still feel compelled to D.
Regarding verbalizing my feelings. No. I have not done that in a clear, concise manner just yet. It was my understanding that R talks were to be avoided. Also, I thought that such a conversation would be interpreted as "pressuring". Am I wrong in that assumption? I would be glad to admit if I am.
She knows that this is killing me, the loss, the pain of it - and she seems not to really care one way or another.
Crimson - I am giving you my outside in perspective. It doesn't mean it is right. But it might be.
"Testing....is that really it? Doesn't it seem rather extreme lengths to go to for a test? Let me divorce you to see if you have really changed?"
Good questions. How else could you possibly describe your W making all those complimentary comments to you, all the while still planning to proceed towards the big D? My view is she makes these statements and is looking for a reaction. Not sure what specifically she is hoping or thinking she will see but to my mind she is looking for something from you.
"Regarding verbalizing my feelings. No. I have not done that in a clear, concise manner just yet. It was my understanding that R talks were to be avoided. Also, I thought that such a conversation would be interpreted as "pressuring". Am I wrong in that assumption? I would be glad to admit if I am."
Let me ask you this question, Crimson. At what point do you think a R talk would be appropriate? After you divorce or at some point before you get to that point? I agree that timing is critical and several months ago probably would not have been a good time. But what about now?
You should re-read Divorce Remedy's Chapter 4 again. The very first sentence reads:
"Now that you know exactly what you want in your marriage, it's time to share your thoughts with your spouse.""She knows that this is killing me, the loss, the pain of it - and she seems not to really care one way or another."
I call BS here. She does care, she has said as much in her late night texts to you. But she is hurting too. As much if not more so than you.
“The future depends on what you do today.” ― Mahatma Gandhi
I have no idea why she would make so many positive comments about me and still drift onward toward D. Maybe you're right and it is a test. Maybe she is trying to offset guilt by being excessively kind? If she IS looking for a reaction, I don't know what it is. I try not to react at all. She seems to be asking me "Are you OK?" a lot these days.
I guess the time is coming for me to initiate a R talk....I pretty much know what I would like to say, and at this point I feel as though I have nothing to lose. I want to be able to ask her if she is willing to work on things, why no do it while separated and not divorced?
***Honestly, for women and WAWs out there, is there something cathartic, or freeing about the divorce??***
I really do not know.
Maybe she is hurting, too. But she seems perfectly fine and at peace with ending the marriage. She can talk about it without a problem. I guess the way I see it, I am not willfully taking anything from her....she is losing time with our son, but that is her choice and a reality that my son and I have to live with right now.
Some days I just feel angry and I don't know where to put it. I will not show it to her at all. But sometimes I just want to scream WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?! IF you claim you are wanting to work on the relationship and open to it -- why??
Slow down Crimson. You are thnking yourself nutty. Get a hold of your thinking and stop the why questions. What you are doing is counter productive. Iwas told that anger stems from fear. What are you afraid of?
"I want to be able to ask her if she is willing to work on things, why no do it while separated and not divorced?"
Why are you fighting it so hard? If getting a D will help her to work on the R, then wouldn't you be willing to do it? I know, it sounds crazy to me, too, but that's what she keeps saying. You are the one fighting the D so hard. Why? Isn't having a R with her what you really want?
You are scared to death of a D! Why? You don't have a M, now. Remember, it died. You don't have her as your W, now. What will be the difference after you sign some papers? You said it yourself, what do you have to lose? If getting a D will get the two of you together, then why are you dying a thousand deaths a day over the fear of it? What does that M license give you right now? You've already lost it, but according to her, there just might be a chance once she is legally free.
Sandi and Rick -
You are both correct. I am not going to lie to anyone one this board at all - I am scared to death of the divorce. I am not proud of the fact that I am seemingly lacking in strength to meet this thing with a more robust heart. Why am I scared? I will speak as honestly as possible in the hopes that I can get a hand calming the hell down.
1. I never, ever wanted to be a part time dad. I am afraid of all of the time I will be missing with him. Already I have missed so many new things that he has done. My heart breaks every time I have to bring him back to my w - and that never gets any better - at least it hasn't yet. I am afraid that this is going to be what my life is with him forever. I miss him all of the time he is gone.
2. I am afraid that I am going to fall apart financially. Already with what I have to give her I am damn near paycheck to paycheck. I haven't had to live like that since I left college. I have worked so hard an sacrificed so much to be able to provide. I am going to lose so much in my retirement and other things that it's going to stretch out the amount of time I am going to have to work. I am afraid of falling back down a ladder that I have fought, been beaten up and strived so hard to climb.
3. Most embarrassingly, I am afraid that after the divorce that she will find someone else that she falls madly in love with and I will must be a phase of her life that came and went. I am afraid that she will remarry and someone will take away the woman that I love and that my son will have a new male "figure" in his life. I am humiliated that I can't control my feelings any better than this ^^^^^^, but imam being honest.
So there it is. Those are the main reasons why I am scared to death of the divorce. Plus, how will I know that she really would want to work on things once it is all done.
Crimson
"So there it is. Those are the main reasons why I am scared to death of the divorce. Plus, how will I know that she really would want to work on things once it is all done."
You don't know if she'll really want to, or not. I already knew those things you listed, b/c we talked about this before. Nobody faults you for feeling the way you do. It's just that we can see how you are tearing yourself apart. Nobody wants to be a part-time parent (not those who really love their kids). Nobody wants to be ruined financially. And certainly nobody wants to see their S fall in love and M another person. But my question is......do you have any power over it? Can you stop it? Can you change it? If not, what will you decide to do? I'm worried about you, Crimson. You've got to find peace before you self-destruct. Below is a copy of an old prayer, but I hope you'll look at yourself in these words. ((Crimson)).
Serenity Prayer
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
(Although known most widely in its abbreviated form above,
the entire prayer reads as follows...)
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.
Thank you, Sandi. I just printed two copies of that prayer and they are going on the mirror in my bathroom and on my fridge.
There is nothing I can do about any of it. The problem with being somewhat of a type-A personality, you always think that there is a way to fix everything....a way to achieve anything you want if you work hard enough and focus on it. Sadly, as it comes to love and emotions - this is just not the case. A person (me in this case) will bloody their head on the wall trying to make it happen. I am a living example, and yet somehow I think I am the one that can be the first to outsmart it. I guess it's that "never give up" attitude. I guess I partially believe that if I let go and give it to the D that it is the equivalent of giving up on my marriage. I know that I KNOW better than that - it's just a hard correlation to break.
I want to remain consistent....upbeat and positive with my W - but right now, I just want to be away from her until I can get a better grip on my feelings and make peace with the divorce and all that it will take away.
Crimson
Crimson I think I understand you. I too will go to the end of the world to get something accomplished. Not because I wanted it. I did it in many ways. When I was in grad school many said I wouldn't finished. I worked full time went to class full time and did 14 hours of internship a week. Guess what I did it on time and with an almost 4.0 average. Yes I'm proud of what I did. But my W is even more driven. So I never felt good about my accomplishments. Let go of life as you know it. Chill for a bit. Let life happen.
It really is a crappy way to be as it relates to other people, isn't it? Sometimes I wonder if some of that dripped into the behaviors that my wife didn't like in me. Who am I kidding? It had to. Maybe letting go of things and letting life occur when I can do nothing to control it is the "holy grail" of 180s for me.
It's very hard for me to let life happen when I know that it is going to result in something negative for me - I try like hell to fight it.
Chill for a bit. Let life happen.
do i need to hear that tonight!
thanks rick
crimson - i agree with the type a thing - you wrote a good description of what it comes out as in our sitches - and you saying that it would be the mother of all 180's - oooh - lightbulb moment for all of us.
that's the next 180 for me - for sure
i know you're in a hard spot - but stay cool and don't let what hasn't happened yet overwhelm you
it's amazing - whatever i';m struggling with in the moment, i come here and read the threads and there's someone else going through the same thing, and then i read what others write to them to support them, and it helps me so much
what i'm working on myself and which eases things and may help you - every time i'm upset about something with the sitch, i look at it as resistance on my part in how things are playing out. and then i see that in every area that i resist - that's what h can push against and keep his stance and keep moving away. so the less i resist - the less fuel he has to keep his resistance up - you can't keep fighting against something that won't fight back, can you?
take care
zig
It really is a crappy way to be as it relates to other people, isn't it? Sometimes I wonder if some of that dripped into the behaviors that my wife didn't like in me.
Ya think?!?!?!?!
It's very hard for me to let life happen when I know that it is going to result in something negative for me - I try like hell to fight it.
Hmmm, a series of negative things have happened while you didn't just let life happen. And in the snippets when you've acccepted life as it happens, things temporarily improved.
Well, at the moment I think I have located the "exit" in my head. Poorly illuminated, though it may be. Pretty much beginning to identify that fear and sadness come and go in waves - just the same as courage and confidence.
Sandi - I have read that prayer about a dozen times and it helps as a mantra. As noted, it is perched on my bathroom mirror right now - I hope to read and internalize it every morning.
This morning I think I initiated a more calm (hopefully) line of questioning. And it boils down to one question that I really am throwing out there - is it just trust?
If I look at the net positives - and when I am not spiraling I think I can do it - there are a lot.
We both want another child - and would prefer to do it together
She has acknowledged that I am a good father
MUCH to my surprise, she said that I "set the bar pretty high" in terms of men and that "there aren't a lot of good guys like you out there"
Still thinks I am physically attractive
As briefly commented on how her communication skills got us here, too
Has said she is open to working on things
All of these things sound good if she really means them - and it sounds like a good starting (or re-starting) point for the both of us. And if I look objectively at all of those things - it doesn't particularly sound like a woman that is completely repulsed by me. And still, she feels the need to proceed towards divorce. Which, naturally, I don't like - but I am learning to accept. As Sandi and others have said - hell, we already ARE divorced - what's the difference?.
So it really begs the question - is it just trust? And is that lack of trust what she is talking about when she says she doesn't have "feelings" and that her "heart is closed" and she can't force it open?
The basic question I am asking - and I am not wise in the ways of women's hearts - is it trust that drives feelings? If that is the case, I can see why she is holding her ground with the D a little bit more clearly.
By all accounts on the boards and from the vets - especially the women, it's about sufficient time. Is it TRUST that is being built back during that time? Or is it a matter of just waiting for the magical "butterflies" of new romance to return? Because I don't know if a couple can ever go back to that "we just met" euphoria.
And if it IS trust that needs to be rebuilt (assuming that she is honest about the postives she's stated above) how to I do I help her get that back over time? I know that it is a matter of being consistent - and I think I have been doing a reasonable job there. But what more is there to it? If anything? And what if being "consistent" has a "pursuing" feel to it?
For example - I have been very postive with her and supportive in her career and other things - trying to help build her up. She has acknowledged recently that I am "her biggest fan". Are things like that pursuing?
Additionally, I have really been working on the 180 of being more flattering than I have been in the past. I am learning that that is one of her love languages - words of affirmation. So I try to tell her that she looks nice when I see her - or remind her that she is pretty/beautiful/attractive - no in an overtly gushing way - but in a way to let her know that I know that it is important to her whereas I didn't before.
Are there daily actions that a man can take to help rebuild trust with a WAW that claims to be open to working on things?
Which brings me to my next point - "work on things". What does that mean for a WAW? She kind of pulled the plug on MC and I have not reintroduced the topic in awhile....should I? How do we work on things? Spending time together? She has been somewhat relucant to do that in the absence of out son. I feel that staying disconnected and interacting whenever we see each other isn't really "working" on things? But is it?
She claimed that we have "major problems" - all of which I have detailed in threads in the past. If she perceives them as "major" is it even possible to work on them if you don't roll up your sleeves and say "let's work on these things"? I really don't know if we can do it if we don't make and effort to.
What do I do to "work on it"
I know I have asked a million questions here - but I think I am having a decent moment of calm clarity. Any thought, opinions or answers are gladly welcome.
Crimson
Baby steps Crimson, baby steps. Patience is the watch word here.
From what I’ve read and I apologize for not reading it all but the last few pages it seems as though she would like to trust. It also seems as though she has looked about and doesn’t see better elsewhere, so maybe trying again is something to do until something better becomes apparent.
It seems she is holding onto the D as an out and holding onto you as plan B until plan A becomes apparent. I understand the pressure.
Patience is needed because she is skittish. I doubt she knows what she wants from time to time.
Driven people are often intense enough to display it quite prominently. Let go of the intensity. Be calm and patient, give time for her to trust what she needs to trust and then give more time.
Permit an old hunter to use an analogy
There is a place I hunt regularly. It is an old apple orchard nestled in a small opening of larger trees; Oaks and a small grove of pines are higher up the hill.
There is a doe coming into the orchard, she wants the apples, but she doesn’t trust her safety. The apples beckon so she tests the air looking for the slightest scent of danger.
If I’m focused upon taking a shot my adrenal reaction will create tension in my body and she is likely to pick out a slight movement or smell and be gone, my hunt busted.
If I am relaxed allowing life to happen, focusing upon the evening sunset, focusing upon the evening's sounds and scents, the scene of this beautiful animal in my periphery slowly building trust then she is much more likely to approach and feed. This provides many more options and I am very likely to simply enjoy her presence and what else it may bring.
Patience, one cannot control the events occurring around one. Controlling ones actions may influence the outcome of the events.
Crimson, my friend, you are as anxious about getting things "right" as I was. I still think your big picture is that you need to relax and let life come to you more than you need to worry about if you are getting things "right."
And is that lack of trust what she is talking about when she says she doesn't have "feelings" and that her "heart is closed" and she can't force it open?
For my W, that's what it was, and that what I believe it is for many women. Once they have been hurt or let down, when you have not been there emotionally for them the way they needed you to be, that they could not trust you to be there for them emotionally, or you let them down one too many times when they trusted in you....Then, their heart closes, and they don't have the feelings. I think that is what it is for many women (some women miss the "falling in love" feelings, which is a whole different story, but I don't think that is what it is with your W).
The basic question I am asking - and I am not wise in the ways of women's hearts - is it trust that drives feelings? If that is the case, I can see why she is holding her ground with the D a little bit more clearly.
She is not holding her ground in the sense that her keeping her heart closed is a conscious decision. She wishes she could open her heart and have the feelings come back. She cannot or does not know how to do so. So, she concludes she needs to D you.
It's not getting back to the falling in love/first time feelings, it is either the passage of time or new experiences that can heal the hurt.
The problem is that the more that YOU try to open their heart actively (by pursuit), the more they defensively shut off to you -- because they see it as your ulterior motives -- it being about you and your needs, rather than about her hurt and her needs to feel safe and loved again.
And if it IS trust that needs to be rebuilt (assuming that she is honest about the postives she's stated above) how to I do I help her get that back over time? I know that it is a matter of being consistent - and I think I have been doing a reasonable job there. But what more is there to it? If anything? And what if being "consistent" has a "pursuing" feel to it?
See above. You just be a damn good guy living your life with your S and treat her well when she approaches you. The most powerful thing you really can do is to really listen to her and be emotionally there for her. So much of attachment is about that. Don't overdo it or feel compelled that you need to initiate anything or flatter/pursue her or it will backfire.
Which brings me to my next point - "work on things". What does that mean for a WAW? She kind of pulled the plug on MC and I have not reintroduced the topic in awhile....should I?
No, don't reintroduce MC. Don't try to control what "working on things" means. Let her define it. You simply agree, say, sure, I'm all about working on things. Then get busy with yourself and live your life with your S. Let her initiate whatever she means by "working on things." You want her to be the one to initiate the steps. Just be ready to reciprocate with mojo. If she doesn't initiate anything to "work on things," then fine you have your answer. Her clock will be slower than you would like things to be, so you need to GAL and be busy with yourself.
She's got alot going on before she can get back into a relationship with you since she is in the midst of a divorce.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply, Busto. If I may ask, what did it take for your wife to thaw her heart over time? I may have already asked this - and I know that there is no "formula" to it. I am just curious as to what things help.
With regard to not be able to or not knowing how to have feelings again - isn't it often said that love is a choice? At some point would she have to actively choose to have feelings or at least remain available for them?
I am doing the best I can to be a good guy when I am around her. There have been fleeting moments when I have bouts of sadness in her presence - no tears or anything - but just kind of inwardly quiet. There are days when I am for sure acting "as if". I think I have done a much better job relative to the past listening and being more emotionally present when I have an opportunity to do so.
I think my feelings get hurt at times when she doesn't initiate much. When I have our S, she seems more willing to do so - but as I have said before - I never know if it is because she wants to see him, me or both of us. When SHE has him - she does not initiate much. Maybe this is a function of her clock being slower as you mentioned.
Honestly - should I ask her to do NOTHING? I know I seem transfixed on "getting it right" - but when you say relax and let life come to you, in a relaxed state I WANT to ask her to do things. Part of her complaints included the fact that we didn't DO much together (granted, we had been through 3 years of infertility $$$ and 16 months of being new parents). I feel as if I continue to not offer things up - then I am dropping the ball in a certain respect.
When I invited her to the comedy shoe last month - she initially accpeted - then cancelled because she thought I was treating it as a "date" and she didn't want the pressure - then said she regretting cancelling and decided to go. We had a really good time (as noted, she even held my arm as we left - that was the most affection I have recieved in 8 months - maybe it was the Ketel One?). So how do I approach activities with her? How did you handle it with your wife?
How do I show her that I care? That I am evolving and that I am committed even after the D without looking like I am pursuing?
Crimson
Thank you for the thoughtful reply, Busto. If I may ask, what did it take for your wife to thaw her heart over time? I may have already asked this - and I know that there is no "formula" to it. I am just curious as to what things help.
I'm honestly not sure what were the critical things in my sitch. See, I completely stopped doing all the destructive things I had been doing in our R and started being attentive to her with words of affirmation, acts of service and giving. Taking care of myself, being fit, being active and GAL, reconnecting with friends and our kids. I did this consistently for awhile during regular contact with her (8 months?), but that didn't seem to change anything -- just slowed her march to divorce.
In my GAL, I also hung out with women and got flirted with and propositioned, so I regained confidence in myself and sort of re-learned how to flirt with women. I ended up flirting with my W at the same time that I ultimately rejected her and told her that I was moving on. Don't know if that self-confidence played a role.
I ultimately told her that I had had enough of the separation, and I accepted that she didn't want to be with me. I said I didn't want to be with her either since I wanted to be with someone who wanted to be with me. I told her I wanted NO CONTACT with her except for emergency stuff about kids to make it easier for me to move on. And I held to that (fairly well) for a few months. Then I told my W I was going to file for divorce, that it was time for me to move on legally.
It was during the months of No Contact and me initiating the push for divorce that things started to change for her (I was oblivious to all of this as I was busy with my own life, I certainly wasn't actively thawing her heart). She has told me since that she realized during that time how much she missed me, how important a part of her life I was to her, that I was her best friend and that she had lost me.
It may have been necessary for her to have seen evidence that I had changed and could treat her well before I pushed her and the separation away, I'm not sure. But, I honestly think what ULTIMATELY opened her heart back up to me was HER feeling that that she was losing me. And missing me and the things she loved about me. (along with the passage of years from the times that I had hurt her most).
Even when she first started to come back, I don't think she really trusted me yet. But the feeling of losing me outweighed her fear of being hurt enough so that she chose to love me and work on rebuilding trust, despite her residual hurt.
Your W is operating on her feelings. It is her own feelings and choices that might guide her to open her heart back to you. Not anything you do -- you aren't strong enough to open her heart. In my case, I think it was my W's feelings (her fear and experience of losing me from her life) that led her to re-open her heart to me.
I think my feelings get hurt at times when she doesn't initiate much. When I have our S, she seems more willing to do so - but as I have said before - I never know if it is because she wants to see him, me or both of us. When SHE has him - she does not initiate much. Maybe this is a function of her clock being slower as you mentioned.
I remember this very well. It's painful to feel that way. Try not to do this to yourself -- to let yourself be in a situation where you feel like this.
How do I show her that I care? That I am evolving and that I am committed even after the D without looking like I am pursuing?
You can't do anything to open her heart. You aren't strong enough to control her -- don't try. Live that way because it is the right way for you to live, not in order to manipulate her.
Thanks again, Busto. Given where I am right now, I don't know if saying "I am done" is the right move to make. As much as it hurts to say, that day may come - and perhaps even this moment I need to become a *bit* more scarce, but I don't know if I should do a total Houdini just yet.
I don't know how any of this is going to play out, but I am hoping that consistency in change will eventually help her open back up some. That, along with the staying consistent even after D. I have said this multiple times, but I think she honestly believes that I am going to wave the white flag and revert after divorce. And, based on other WAW feedback - it is a legitimate fear to have.
I do, however, see your point about giving her time to miss me. It's just so hard to do when there is a little one in the mix. I would fear that I would be coming off as a jerk. Not sure.
Crimson
The road to hell is paved with both good intentions and LBSs.
So I had to drop my S off at w's condo today after I picked him up. She had asked me to bring a spare land line phone (I cancelled mine) because hers had stopped working. I brought it, set it up for her - no problem at all. Was happy to do it.
I am scheduled to have him this weekend beginning on Friday and return him to her the coming Tuesday. As I was standing in her kitchen, she said "I was hoping maybe I could see him this weekend." Which, to me, is always a good thing because it gives us a chance to spend time together as family - which I enjoy. So just as I was about to reply, she said "my sister and the guy she's dating are going up to Sedona (ironically, the site of our wedding) to celebrate her birthday and I was thinking we could go up an meet them for the day". Instantly, I was shocked - I looked at her and said "Do you mean all three of us or were you just referring to you and S?". Clearly I thought it was the former, since it was my Saturday with him. She snapped at me "I DON'T LIKE THE PRESSURE!!!".
I was taken aback a bit and told her that was not at ALL my intent - I was just trying to clarify. Honest to God, I was not trying to pressure whatsoever. In a huff, she just looked down and said "we can just talk about it later". I left feeling awful - I had NO intent of pressuring her...not an ounce! I was just asking to clarify. Clearly she was referring to taking my Saturday with him and driving up to Sedona to spend time with her sister and her boyfriend. I was thinking she meant the three of us and wanted clarification to be sure.
I feel like I walked out of there looking like a jerk - and I really don't think I did anything wrong. Granted, I guess she has a HIGH level of sensitivity to these things.
Now I would imagine the pending question is going to be can she have him all day on Saturday. Part of me wants to say "sure", to do the 180. And part of me wants to stand ground and say no. Keep in mind she booked her June vacation with him to include one of my custody days without even asking me.
If we are really working on things together, I mean REALLY trying - my capacity for flexibility is almost infinite. But if our M is not just a matter of the courts - and we LITERALLY have temporary court orders dictating our time with him - then we have to abide by it. I kind of feel as if she wants it both ways - to have a divorce, but to have unlimited flexibility in scheduling at my expense.
I feel trapped. Do one thing and you're a doormat. Do the other, and you have not changed at all....you're still the same....everything has to be your way.
Ugh. I pray that I do not have a lifetime of this ahead.
Crimson
U will have a life time of this till you change and let go. I know I h8 that Phrase too. But it will come to you.
Meant to say if you don't change
You know, GM, no - not since this whole rigmarole began have I asked her for a minute of her scheduled time with him. Based on the inflexibility I've received over holidays and even his birthday, I do not think such requests would be received well. TOTALLY speculative on my part - and I am kind of in a bad mood about what happened, so my objectivity in analysis is probably compromised a bit at the moment.
Thank you for validating. I didn't feel as though I did or said anything wrong. For sure nothing to warrant the quippy response that I received.
She has said that she is having a hard time dealing with anything outside of her normal routine right now, so I think even the slightest inference of stress that hits her radar is noticed. If it's something tied to me, it's a flaming arrow lodging itself in her living room wall.
The sad part it, I really have been sensitive to this ^^^^ in most everything I do.
Crimson,
I'm not sure my advice is worth much at all - I'm not having success in my own sitch yet!
But... it seems she's given you some interesting feedback on how she perceives your sitch - she feels enormously pressured and this seems to be related to what she perceives as pursuit on your part.
So, although hurtful (and wrong from your POV), this is what she feels.
Given that, and given that your goal is to show your changes, i'd say let her take him for the day. It's a special day (birthday) and probably wasn't planned in advance.
It shows that you are the bigger person, and can be flexible (this will pay off for you in the long run, too, I'd imagine).
And as you are not yet working from court-imposed visitation orders, no need to act as if you are.
I know it seems unfair and wrong to act like a doormat - but.... which action is likely to get you closer to your goal of showing consistent change?
Also, it means you get to see her when you drop off and pick up that day. Two more opportunities to show the new you.
JMHO.
Crimson-
You are in a really tough spot. I agree with Busto, you need to become unavailable. You keep thinking that if you are there for her she will have a change of heart but I'm telling you its not going to happen.
Don't let her make all the rules. Don't let her take your son on your day, she wouldn't let you do that.
I'm actually thinking maybe she is just being nice to you just to get through the divorce, I hope I'm wrong because I really want you to work it out.
I know you don't want to do this but I would try to make her jealous and hang out with other guys and women, throw a couple pic's on facebook having fun without her, she will see them and freak out.
What do you have to lose, she not there for you as a wife and what you have tried for the last 8 months hasn't changed her from stopping the divorce.
Shaky
I kind of agree on the becoming less available. There are moments when I struggle to see if I my w is noticing changes or just realizing I am not really into fighting or arguing over things anymore.
However, I don't think that I could deliberately set forth sight the intent to make her jealous and wave my life in her face. If I GAL and she somehow gets drawn into it - so be it. But I don't think I could live my life for punitive reasons. That's probably more old me than who I'm striving to be now.
And though nothing I have done in the last 8 months has haulted the divorce things have gotten better. If there is to be a R, it will take a lot of small steps, but I can't revert back or into something I never was in the first place.
Just logging thoughts this morning.
This is one of the hardest emotional things that I have done in my life. 180's....ones that will really matter in my R are tremendously difficult.
After w snapped on me a little yesterday night, she sent me an e-mail this morning. She works at a high school and has the summer off. She has already scheduled a trip to CA for herself and our son to visit a friend. Today I received an e-mail from her saying that she wants to take him back to IA this summer to visit family (her dad is having some health issues)and wanted to know the maximum number of days that I would be willing to let her go.
Instantly, my mind flashed back to last night and her snapping at me when she misinterpreted a question as "pressure". I am still kind of hurting a bit from it, but I will get over it. I wanted to respond to her e-mail and say that I really am not in a place to think about this right now. That I am mentally and physically exhausted regarding everything that is going on - that I don't want to think about long stretches without my son this summer -- that there are court guidelines in place that dictate travel and days away -- that I Just. Could. Not. Deal. Now.
Then I remembered something that I have learned in this process: a lot of my initial emotional reactions are wrong.
Would THAT reply move me closer or further away to my goal of keeping my family together - even after D? Would a negative reaction provide W with more evidence that things are still the same? That I think about what I need first, and then her? That I don't see the value in HER family and our son's time with them. No, I could respond in the way that I would have so many months ago. Yes, it was hard as hell to give the response that I gave:
"I am very supportive of this. It’s important for the family. We have court orders that dictate travel/maximum days away – but to be honest, I do not care about them. Do what you think is right for you, S and your family – and I will support it."
I know there is probably something wrong with that reply - but I felt it was the best I could do. It was an incredibly difficult thing to type- especially given that my feelings were still kind of hurt from last night. There is no way in hell that I could have replied like that a year ago. No way.
I guess what I am saying is nothing new to people that have gone here before me. The process of changing yourself...REALLY changing for the betterment of yourself and your family is HARD. It is easy to give lip service to, but to LIVE it - holy sh*t is it tough. I once said in one of my first threads that I always said I loved my wife and family - but never truly lived it. I am fighting an uphill battle, but I am trying to live it now - even though I am late to the party. Maybe too late.
I know these changes are for me...and for good. But I still hope that her heart takes notice eventually.
Crimson
i think you replied as a friend and that's what this is all about. i applaud your selflessness, kindness, and maturity.
Wife's reply:
"Wow! I have tears of joy right now…. But please communicate your parameters bc I would go for 3 weeks if allowed…."
huge smile on my face for you right now!!!
Thanks. I don't know if ti really does me any good. Sometimes I don't even know she notices the changes, or if she even cares or relates it to our relationship. I don't even know if she knows how much it hurts me for him to be gone. I know I should be doing this with no expectations at all - and I am trying to. Really don't have a choice. It's just a lot of deep breaths to take.
I hope she is serious when she says she is open to working on the relationship. She hasn't said exactly what that means to her, but that is why I am trying this hard.
i don't think any of us would be here if we didn't have expectations. we bought the book and joined the forum with the expectation of stopping a divorce. i think we can lower our expectations but when they are completely gone, we're done...and you're not done.
I hope she is serious when she says she is open to working on the relationship. She hasn't said exactly what that means to her, but that is why I am trying this hard.
This is why I believe it is important for you to ask her next time she brings it up.
"W when you say you are open to working on the relationship, what does that look like to you?" And then validate like hell when she tells you.
I still believe that the time is coming for "Asking For What You Want" from your W. She is hell bent on the D, and if my memory serves me correctly, it is just weeks away from being final, correct?.
I asked this the other day and I will repeat it again; when is the best time to ask for what you want? Before the D or after?
There is no need for you to answer, just think about it.
2TP and others -
So the problem I think I have with asking her what "working" on the relationships means/looks like to her is the VERY same thing that burned me yesterday. Her feeling that I am putting pressure on her. Pressure to say something, pressure to DO something, pressure period. I absolutely see the need to ask - but she is so hypersensitive to pressure It's tough to ask. I have this gut fear that she is going head for the hills if she feels pressure of any kind.
It's a crummy position to be in, if I am being ridiculous - let me know!
Crimson,
I don't have a ton of knowledge, but can tell you my W is the same way. We can go for days and weeks getting along great and if I attempt to bring up the R or M it does freak her out.
And she also states that she likes my changes, but then tells me she is waiting for the other shoe to drop. It gets very frustrating.
I can relate and you are in my prayers.
SIW
Thank you SIW - it helps to know that others are on the same cycle. I hope things turn around for you. At a bare minimum, she has noticed your changes. Looks like you have only been at this since March or so, so that is a good spot to be in. Work on making them last. Which, I will tell you, if you are doing it right will probably hurt like hell.
As for me, today has been kind of rough. I am praying for more peace and patience because lately I feel like I have been working so hard and not really getting a lot back. I know that things have gotten better relative to where I started, but I still feel as if there has yet to be one true moment when W says she is 100% committed to working on things. At the moment, it seems all that she is committed to is the divorce.
It is a difficult things to process - working so hard on changes, being better, relating better to W and she seems to only be working on divorce. Maybe I am being dire here, and maybe I am just exhausted from effort and not seeing the big picture of all that I have accomplished over time. But today, I feel as if I am all give and no get when it comes to my situation. I know that in signing up for DBing, that I was signing up for doing most, if not ALL, of the work. It's just hard to keep that in your memory when for so long you toiled under the impression that two people have to work at it AT ALL TIMES. Some days in this process, you just want her to give up.
DB is a tremendously challenging thing to do. For me it is right now, anyway. I am doing my best to gut it out but if I have several days in a row like today I don't know how I will be able to keep it together.
If this was the type of pain that I was putting my W throught without knowing - "I'm sorry" doesn't even begin to cover it.
Crimson
I was the mother of controlling behavior. Sad thing was, I didn't realize I tried to control my family. Talk about having lessons to learn about life!
I don't want a divorce for you (just so we're clear). But I do hope you will learn that you can survive, even if it comes to that. Crimson, I've had to face a lot of things in life that I had no control over, and that prayer is the best way to deal with it. Don't be a slave to fear of what may happen.
Thank you, Sandi. I have been deeply appreciative of the help you have given me over the months.
Do you think I did the right thing in supporting her trip to see her family with S even though it extends beyond parameters established by the court? I was so difficult to type what I did when all I wanted to do was say "no!". It has really been the focal point of a lot of angst today. I feel it was the right thing to do, but at the same time I don't want to become a doormat.
Remember how one-sided I made the holidays for all of those years? Always with MY family? I am trying to make ammends to some degree and show her that I value her relationship with her family as well - hope that is a 180.
As noted earlier, I think that as long as we have mutually agreed to work on the relationship, my capacity to be flexible and give selflessly is pretty big. If, in her mind, she is 100% done I would most likely just play by the book that the court has given us. However, she has said that she is open to working on the relationship.....as noted, I am just wondering what that means or looks like to her or any other WAW for that matter.
I mean, does she call? Do I call her? Do we go do things together without our S? How will I know she is working on things? You can see even the slightest misinterpretation causes her to recoil (the incident yesterday about going up north).
How does a WAW "work on the relationship" especially after the D? What should I expect? Or should I expect nothing?
Crimson
"I am very supportive of this. It’s important for the family. We have court orders that dictate travel/maximum days away – but to be honest, I do not care about them. Do what you think is right for you, S and your family – and I will support it."
i hope you can hear the silent applause from deep within yourself for replying in this way. it is efforts like these, even though we are struggling deeply, that will carry us through on the higher road.
no matter what happens down the line, when you do things like this now, you will always carry with you the knowledge that you did more than your best, no matter how much the cost to you. you will never look back at this time and think, oh i wish i had done that different.
and your wife's reply - [censored], it brought tears to my eyes - but then, i'm awful sensitive these days myself:)
maybe I am just exhausted from effort and not seeing the big picture of all that I have accomplished over time. But today, I feel as if I am all give and no get when it comes to my situation.
yes - we're all exhausted- aren't we? but take a deep breathe, center yourself and keep looking towards what you want , which is your family back together and remember that these are just the details, and that right now, only you can carry it as she is too lost to do so (my IC's words to me today).
as for sorry not covering it - well, that is true and how much are we willing to forgive, while we are saying that we still want to get back together.
look back to where this started and see the progress and feel encouraged by that - could you have imagine your spouse even hinting that she wanted things to go better?
it ain't ended until it's ended..
the other thing that i've been thinking about ALOT is seeing my own pattern here - the more i do my 180's and try so hard to "save this marriage" i find that the expectations are what always make me go under and feel like i'm drowning. i'm telling myself now: be clear why you are taking the higher road - it has to be for yourself and not for the WAS - it has to be so that i'll always have these changes, and if i look to h for any sort of validation, then i am not doing it for the right reasons.
and i find myself tripping up time and again, especially after a day when something good happens - he always withdraws and then i feel crushed and realize, oops once again, i expected something.
this is tremendously challenging - every second of it - but aren't we the warriors who have made it through this far?
hope you are feeling better this evening and less pressured - i think sometimes we try too hard and need to give ourselves a break (it's as if we judge ourselves on how we are doing by how the sitch is progressing) and just let things be
zig
Thank you for the positive post, zig. It's remains fairly difficult to tell if I have done the right thing or not, but I do not regret sending that message to my wife and would do it again - despite the fact that it was a rough message to create.
Read your post again, zig. Really hits on where I am right now. I need to expect nothing - which is hard to do when you are giving your all.
If you're out there 25, I would really value your take on what's been going on lately.
Crimson
Crimson,
It must be something in the air becuase I have been feeling much like you working my azz of on the 180's, supporting the family and relating better to the W with no give on her side. But then I tell myself that the best things in life are worth fighting for and I have never walked away from a challenge before in my life. Why should this be different? There is a chance she could move or proceed with a D, but in the end I took the high road.
Sometimes I think though that this high road is a lonely spot to be in. I would rather be here than how others have dealt with marital problems. Hang in there.
SIW
Hey Crimson,
Just wanted to drop in and say good job man. I think what you did going above and beyond out of thoughtfulness for your wife's desires will yield you benefits down the road. I know her response must've made your day. Your taking the high road will give you peace regardless of the outcome of your sitch. You are fortunate that you are in communication with you W, I wish I had that opportunity.
I've tried a similar approach with my W, not doing something directly for her but in investing in 529k's I set up for my 3 stepkids. I have no expectations in doing this and will continue at least to the point if/when she files. I haven't got a thank you, but when I look back on this in the future I can honestly tell myself I left it all on the floor, as you are doing. 8 months in and I think I am finally adhering to the DB principles (as long as this act isn't pursuing behavior which I don't think it is, since the benefit is direct to my stepkids not to her).
Good job and good luck, don't be lonely on the high road I am trying to be right there with you. :-)
Thanks, SIW. Feeling a little better today. I am starting to believe that I am going to feel better once this D is said and done. Having it dangling overhead like this is just brutal. Maybe when it is all over I will be able to get on with the business of my life - whatever that might be. The lead up and anticipation of events is the worst.
It's hard to do with my son in the middle, but I am really thinking about pulling back even more if possible. It's just that those 5 days runs when he is without me that are hard. I always end up texting w to see if he is OK, what he is up to. Missing him is the worst. Likewise, when I have him she texts all the time asking about him. Hard to break away like that. Plus, sometimes I am just happy to hear from her even if she is only asking about the baby. Sad, but true.
Trying to focus on detatching more - for sure not my strong point - that is well documented on these boards.
I am trying to shift my focus on what to do after the D. How to manage the sadness I am going to have, the guilt I have relating to my part of everything, and frankly - the loneliness. I am really, really going to have to work hard at putting myself out there more to keep my mind busy and meet new people. I am kind of a naturally shy person in new settings so I tend to avoid them. Gotta get over that.
Hope all is well.
Crimson
Thank you, B74. You have no idea how much I appreciate and need the positive feedback and encouragement (then again, you probably do). As the clock winds down for me, it is getting more difficult. I hope that taking the high road does, in fact, bring me peace at some point. Right now, it's just hard as hell to do and gut-wrenching because there is no immediate benefit other than knowing you are doing the right thing.
Regarding your W not communicating with you, give it time - I was in that position for awhile, too. I hope you make it through that phase.
I hope for nothing but the best for you, keep your chin up and keep DBing as best you can.
Crimson
It is gut wrenching. Especially not being with your little boy all the time and not being free to get pictures of him all the time. H and I used to send each other text pictures of our girls all day. I think you should think about cutting off the contact a little more from your W, dont text or give kid updates unless its an emergency. The fact is divorcing you means losing some of her time/contact with her kid. She needs to see what she is giving up not to punish her but to help you move on with your new relationship
((()))
Thank you, BMom. I have been thinking a lot about that lately. Whenever I have our son, I connect with her whenever she requests. Partially because I want to ease her pain of not seeing him, but also because I feel that it is important to spend time together - and is seems like that might be the only way that it will happen. Regardless, I have put serious thought into just keeping him to myself most of the time when I have him. Not to build a "scorecard" but it's not like she reaches out to me much when she has him.
I guess that leads me to what's been going through my head today.
Is my situation hopeless?
My w says a lot of nice things:
She's open to working on things
There aren't a lot of "good" guys out there like me
Still thinks I am handsome
Wants another child
Thinks that I have become a really good dad
Has said she really doesn't want to date
And so on and so forth. But when it comes down to it, it's not like she is actively trying to connect with me. Quite the opposite, really. Sure - we meet for dinner here and there, but there are moments where I wonder if it's just to see the baby.
Maybe I should be long past the stage of asking these questions, but I think I have lost the ability to objectively view my situation. Are there positives even though my wife is still drifting towards divorce? I really can't tell anymore.
I have said this before, but part of me really believes that she has come so far down this D paths....we have had to spend 10's of thousands of dollars on L's, she's moved out - that maybe she feels as thought she has to just DO this to follow through. Otherwsie, she would look crazy. Hence she told me in e-mail "I am guessing that once divorced, you will no longer want to work on the relationship and I understand that". Almost as if she WANTS to work on the relationship AFTER the divorce.
Someone here used the analogy (crazyville, I think) that it's like cancelling a wedding in reverse. Each step in the divorce process is an escalating commitment and it becomes harder and harder to turn back.
When I look at everyone else's situation here - there seems to be a nice, long lag between when the spouse declares she/he wants a D and when the actual FILING takes place. Almost as if there is a cooling, reflective period. 11 days. That was how much time passed between w dropping the bomb and me getting papers in my hand. She decided, got a lawyer the same week, and it was all done. At times I wonder if she thinks she acted too quickly. Maybe, maybe not.
Maybe the D will be a weight off of her shoulders and she will feel "better" that it is over and she went through with it.
Crimson
Regardless of everything that is going on - when my w calls and I get to talk to my son, things feel pretty good. Even if it only lasts a little bit. I love that kid so much.
Crimson
Looking back on my thread these last few days and it is quite clear that I have been over-posting. So I apologize - my mind is a bunch of places lately.
I am really trying to find a course of action and would be grateful for any input. I find myself torn between two courses of action and I don't know if EITHER is really a great idea.
Part of me just wants to toally black out. No texts, not even responses to hers, no e-mail, no sharing S when I have him. Just play by the book as the court is defining for us. I feel this way because even though she says she is open to working on things - I just don't see her doing it. I don't think we can do it by avoiding each other - and sometimes it feels like if I don't initiate contact, then there would be none. I am perfectly willing to admit that I might be over-sensitive right now given that we are about to be "done" - legally, anyway.
I see the downside of this being my w receiving it as me having only tried to save our relationship to avoid divorce - which I strongly suspect she feels I am doing. I'm not - and the only reason I am even thinking through blacking out is that I am mentally exhausted from all of this. Maybe it's just a sign that I need to dig a little deeper and hang in there.
On the other hand - part of me wants to stay the same. I want to keep steady, weather the ups and downs, accept the amount of work I have to do, be patient, and work for a better outcome.
But then when I do see (or can't tell) if it is being appreciated or reciprocated - I start feeling like a sucker. Is this a normal place to be considering where I am in the process?
From the outset, the vets here have preached patience, patience, patience - and I thought that I got it. Eight months in, and I am realizing that maybe what I thought was patience doesn't even scratch the surface.
Crimson
Crimson - What GM is saying is what I've been trying to get you to understand for awhile now. When are you going to get up the courage and "talk" to your W?
When she snapped at you the other day for asking if she was including you in her plans to go to Sedona, you stated that you weren't trying to pressure her when you asked the question. But, it didn't sound like you took the conversation any further and you let her end the conversation which left you hurt and confused. Perhaps what you should also have said was that you did not deserve to be snapped at.
When are you going to speak your truth to your W?
I am trying to find that medium - just hard to locate. And you're right - she seems so sensitive to anything even closely related to pressure that I am walking on eggshells not to push her over the line or cause her to shut down. I don't want to move the ball backwards, but I fear my caution is coming at the cost of my ability to relax.
Crimson
In sticking with my tradition of humiliating honesty, GM and 2TP, I am terrified to some extent to open the topic of conversation.
One of the awful cycles in our realtionship that we could never seem to snap was me coming to her openly, calmly and honestly with something that was troubling me or making me unhappy - and she would take it as criticism or me finding fault in her. Then, somehow, what started with me trying to voice a concern ends in some kind of argument and her being upset.
I fear that asking her "what does working on our relationship mean to you" - will result in her saying "I don't know" and then set the table for her to AGAIN say I am pressuring her and become angry - and the shut down. I won't let it turn into an argument.
I literally get an uneasiness in my chest just thinking about it. This may just be one of those times where I have to gut it out and just deal with the consequences knowing that I am going in with good intentions.
Crimson
Sometimes Crimson you have to back track a little in order to find the path you were meant to travel. Don't allow yourself to freeze in place. If you don't keep moving, you will die...figuratively speaking of course.
Quick story to help cement the point....
Many years ago I was rock climbing in Joshua Tree National Monument and I got stuck on a rock face. I literally froze in place, arms clinging desperately to the hand holds, feet slipping out from underneath me. To my right was a sheer 30 foot drop off to a field of rocks below. I could not move! My arms were shaking and I was sure I was going to fall. I remember in an extremely panicked voice telling my dad and friends who were with me that I..was..going..to..fall!!!!! I was terrified!
Just then 2 climbers wearing these special grip shoes walked right by me on my left. They were upright and walking right by me! It was then that I realized my fear was in my head and all I needed to do was muster the courage to STAND UP and start walking. I did, and I lived!
You can too!
Crimson, an unfortunate truth is that your M will end in D.
First, do you like the eggshells?
Second, is walking on the eggshells helping?
Third (and I say this, because I'm already dead and working on this exact problem)... it is not how she reacts to your open communication. It is how YOU react before and after HER reaction...
Bit by bit I'm letting it out... "I feel...", "I felt...", "I am concerned...", "I find / found / what works for me..."
No intended criticisms... I speak from a place of me... put it out there... and let it go... no expectations...
I can talk the talk but may not walk the walk. You decide if you really feel as though the R talk ("what does working on our R mean to you") is important to you... a hill you wish to die on... if you don't know if she is working on it... then she probably isn't... We don't see it often, but when we see other members announce their S is wanting to work on the R... it's a very clear message... until then... your W probably doesn't know what it means to her... so she just doesn't have an answer... and just isn't... working on it...
erm, I meant your M MAY end in D...
Hell, KD - you might have got it right the first time, who knows. And you are right about reacting. Truthfully, I think I have gotten better at it - remember the tongue lashing I got in the car a few weeks ago? I remained pretty calm during that ordeal.
2TP, good analogy. I am a bit scared to move in reverse, but maybe it is necessary to move forward.
So last weekend w had son. She also had two friends in from out of town. Weeks prior, she had asked me if I could watch him on Saturday night so she and her friends could go to dinner. I agreed - no problem at all.
They went to dinner, I watched son - no problem. Sunday morning rolls around and I have no idea what her plan is. She texted me and asked if I wanted her to come by and pick up s. I said no. She responded that she wanted to spend the day with him (her friends were still in town). I said "oh, I didn't know what your plan was. It's your day so I'm not going to keep him from you". I then asked her to let me know when she would be coming to pick him up.
She replied and said she was ok with me keeping him and that she just wanted to see him later that night at dinner or something (which we did).
Last night she texts about taking him to Sedona again. When I said I would like to keep him since it was my weekend and I missed him, she replied "I assumed that since you got him extra last weekend you would be flexible. Wrongly assumed",
I didn't reply. Old me would have, but I am not taking the bait. She ASKED me to take him last weekend so she could have dinner with her friends. I didn't ask for her time. I was doing her a favor and fail to see how that put me in her debt. So now it would appear that I am the bad guy. Despite the fact that I have been beyond flexible and accepting in the past with scheduling and have never asked for a minute of her time with him. I'm not sure if she is being reasonable.
I am trying my best.
Crimso
Funny how she wants you to be flexible only when it serves her needs, and that she can't be flexible to serve your needs. You're right, she is not being reasonable. Good for your for clearly stating that you wanted your S on your weekend. I don't think her last message requires any response from you.
You're only the bad guy if you think you are.
She can think whatever she wants and will.
Not your business.
Enjoy Son today.
Ignore her, she is baiting you. Time to detach some, IMO.
Yep - pretty sure I was being baited. Purposefully or otherwise.
I just let it go last night. This morning I started fresh and sent a pic of s in his PJs - she responded happily and positively so I guess she is over it - maybe.
Small victory, but I am happy that I did not get sucked into the vortex last night. Old me would have jumped in without even looking trying to make her see my point. Progress on my part.
There may not have been anything for her to get over other than the momentary realization that you disagreed and she was wrong in her assumption.
Mindreading creates scenarios that may not be true and then spins us off into anger and resentment land.
Not worth it.
Good point ^^^^^. I tend to extrapolate her thoughts a bit. And never really in a positive direction.
I thought about doing that, GM. Then I always wonder if that screws with me trying to be consistent at all times - even during "strife". Notwithstanding, I think my reaching out for the weekend is pretty much over until I hear from her.
She texted me and said she wasn't feeling well....chill, aches....feeling wiped out. This has been happening frequently during the last several months. I will never go back down the "something is organically wrong" path again, but part of me still believes it - and there is nothing I can do or say about it. She'll feel like she has at the flu for a day or two - and then it's gone, not to appear again for about 3-5 weeks.
Crimson
I have been thinking on the questions you asked me.
"Do you think I did the right thing in supporting her trip to see her family with S even though it extends beyond parameters established by the court?"
First, let me say that you made a sacrifice in giving, when you gave her your time with son. I know it had to have been extremely difficult to tell her. However, I wished you would have waited longer before giving her your answer. I think it might have been better to tell her you would need time to think about it. I mean, like waiting for a few days to think it over, at the least. She will "respect" the wait. Maybe in the future you can slow your responses down a bit. (JMHO)
I have a couple of reasons for saying so. For one thing, it stings like heck already b/c you have been the one to adjust your time to her wishes. Either you share son's time with her (on your time) or you keep him so she can go out or when she's not feeling well, right? Now you've agreed to a good bit of the summer time to be spent away from you. Yes, it was a very generous and kind, supportive thing to do! Everyone applauds you. If you believe you made the right choice, then that's what's important. I know you are trying to make up for past issues. I just hope that she won't continue to take advantage of your intentions now.
Do you feel that she has you over the D barrel at moment? You have been the spouse who has made the changes. You are the spouse who wants to work on the M, now, without going to D. I think you keep looking for her to start to show signs of wanting the M to survive. The type of WAW that Michele refers to, is not the wife who leaves b/c she wants to begin working on the MR. The LBH who is trying so hard for so long can start to lose steam b/c he's looking at the W for signs. I think you'll agree you've watched your W for signs of wanting the M to work. It gets you down, doesn't it? Will a D change how you watch her to make a move that tells you something?
"How does a WAW "work on the relationship" especially after the D? What should I expect? Or should I expect nothing?"
I don't think she's going to work at a MR until she feels the desire to live the rest of her life with you, (including staying with you after the son grows up and leaves).. Listen Crimson, have the two of you spent any time together without the baby around? If it wasn't for him, would she have anything to do with you? (She freaks at the thought of going to dinner just the two of you alone, b/c of the word "date" may be attached in your vocabulary.) Maybe the child is the real reason you are desperately trying to keep her in the M. I have concerns that the time spent is always with the baby in between the two of you. Which leads to my next reason I wished you had thought longer before agreeing to let her take him.
I keep going back to her saying she was willing to work on the R....after the D took place. Well, I've heard others say their WAW wanted to get a D and then start dating each other, so even though it sounds crazy.....it's not the first. But I have to agree with 2pt (I think it was him) and ask your W up front just what does working on a R look like to her. She may be referring to a co-parenting relationship, instead of a marriage R! (Maybe you should ask her to be specific, instead of driving yourself crazy wondering about it.)
If the child she has presently is not her motive to stay with you, then it stands to reason that another child might not be reason to stay in the M with the father. I keep wondering about her wanting another baby with you but not sure she wants to be M to you? Why would she not think she had rather meet some man of her future and have his baby? IDK, it just doesn't quite line up. That's why I suggest you ask her, instead of heading for the divorce court blind as a bat, or assuming that she will stick to being "open" to working on the R. I don't like the way she said "open", as if she is going to tell you she never made promises to work on a R. She just said she would think about it.....(that's what being "open" means to me.)
As a rule, we usually say that when one is in the LRT, not to talk R. But in this case, I think you're very close to being past the LRT. I think it would be wise to ask what she means. Don't assume anything. Don't try doing this in a TM, either. Think of how to word your approach, since it doesn't take much to set her off. IMO, you deserve to know what the woman means when she says "open to working". and what kind of R and how that looks in her eyes. Is she referring to a friendship, or something more? IMO, it's down to the line and both of you need to know what the heck is going on.....what the other one wants to happen.
There comes a time that you have to take care of your future, Crimson. How long are you willing to continue doing exactly what you've been doing these past months? If you don't ask her what she means, you will continue through to the D and on down through time....wondering what she is thinking or what she intends or means by her statements. Just simply ask her to expound on it! Tell her to explain what she means so you won't misinterpret her statements. Wouldn't any adult respect a person for asking to clarify?
She tells you that it puts pressure on her, but somehow I don't think a D is going to cause her to start calling you or spending time alone with you, when she doesn't do it now. Being unavailable to her and spending your time with others (since you'll be free), just might redirect her thoughts, but I don't think just getting a legal D and continue doing what doesn't work....will change the outcome you desire.
"How does a WAW "work on the relationship" especially after the D?"
I don't think she will, unless you drop the rope.
Crimson, I think you would be wise to keep a little distance between you and your W for the time being, at least as much as is possible considering you two have a son. Your non response to her baiting text is a good start.
Remember the part in Divorce Remedy about accepting some but not all invitations. You've got to show her that you can't be lead by the nose.
Don't be surprised if she makes another run at the Sedona trip again. Are you going to hold your ground like you did last night?
Hang in there, Crimson!
Been working on adding a little bit of space between us. We did meet up at church - I don't want to "weaponize" God - so I figure that is a neutral, positive place for the three of us. Ironically, the title of the message was "Stop It!" - in reference to self destructive thinking that leads you to negative places and experiences. And yes, I thought of many of you and the advice I have received on that very topic. Timely, indeed. I took notes.
In putting distance between w and myself, and just being "cool" about things - I have somehow managed to get a call on the drive to work at 8:00 AM asking to talk to the baby when she pretty much knows I drop him off at 7:30. She sent me an e-mail at work telling me about a nice thank-you note that she got from one of her students that almost made her cry. After I responded she e-mail back saying she didn't know why she "bragged to me about it" and that "she just felt like sharing it with someone". *SIGH* then she texted me looking for 2011 tax documents to give to her L.
She asked to Skype with s tonight - which I don't have a problem with. Then she texted saying that she was "writing me an appreciation letter" - I was a little shocked by that, to be honest. Wondering what, exactly, the content of that will be. Minutes later she called and nixed the Skyping because "the tears were flowing" from writing the letter.
I'll try not to over-think it, but it confounds me greatly to try to reconcile her claiming to have no feelings and a closed heart towards me, and yet have a well of emotions that leads her to tears when writing and appreciation letter. I guess it just may be one of those things I am not meant to understand.
Crimson
Sad as it is, the D is right around the corner and she is likely feeling the pinch of time running out and all the emotion that goes with that is starting to get to her.
It does seem as though you pulling back a little is drawing her near. So you should probably keep that going as much as possible. Be careful not to attach any emotion to this "appreciation letter". Accept it graciously and then step back. Keep your detachment in place and watch for additional signs.
Hang in there, Crimson!
I stand corrected, she referred to it as a "gratitude letter". I think it will be nearly impossible for me to attach no emotion to it, but I will certainly try. Still, I wonder how she can write such a thing with no feelings and a closed heart. I always heard that the true sign that you are ready for D is true ambivalence towards your spouse - you feel basically nothing. Again - maybe this is something I am not meant to understand.
Crimson
Just wondering if you got my last post. I tried to answer your questions, but you never replied.
I did, Sandi. It gave me so much to think about I actually didn't post much for a few days and I've been meaning to say "thank you". It was not all sunshine and roses, but it was accurate - as I really see you as an expert in this space.
I am trying to drop the rope, it just gets difficult with a 2 year old that you adore in the middle of it all.
It was rather sobering to hear you say I am almost beyond LRT - no place to go from there, really.
Crimson
Still, I wonder how she can write such a thing with no feelings and a closed heart.
Crimson
Mind reading Crimson^^^^. They may act like they have no feelings or are fine w/ everything but from reading on here that is usually not the case when the truth eventually comes out.
Be Well!
I would agree with you SIAS, spare the fact that she has said both of those things to me. Still, who knows how much she means them at any given time. It's been about a month or so since she said her heart was closed off - maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I honestly can't tell.
Crimson
By the way, Sandi - just to respond to something else you mentioned in your reply to my post, I DID tell my w that we need to talk before she books her travel. I really want to be able to gain some clarity on things.
Specifically, her version of working on the relationship. I also want to convey that if we are BOTH working on things together I am very flexible in how we handle nearly all situations. Otherwise, I think I would most likely play everything by the book as dictated by the court. Is there a way to present that without it looking like I am dropping an ultimatum? Is presenting it at ALL a bad idea?