I am not sure how to link my 1st thread to this but I wanted to start a new one with amazing amount of information I now have.
We had a 2 hour meeting with our C today to discuss the timing of my H's move, and how to tell the children. In the middle of the session he brought out a typed paper that was to express to me and our C how he had felt in the M. I am not proud that this is how my H of 10 years felt, but I want to do my best to address everything on the list.
here it is:
"As I have been working on myself, I realize that I do not express my feelings. I have been reading a lot. Other people feel similar to how I feel. This is how our relationship made me feel.
Society holds a reverse sexist attitude regarding emotional dynamics. Men are too embarrassed to talk about the hurt, pain and confusion they experience as a result of the way that they are treated.
I censored my thoughts and feelings. I was afraid of your emotional reactions, so I swallowed my hurt and anger. I did this for so long that I didn't know how I felt until we started therapy.
Constant Criticism. No matter how hard I tried nothing ever felt good enough.
Controlling. I felt manipulated and controlled.
Dr. Jekyll and Ms Hyde. One minute you are kind and loving, the next your flipping out.
My feelings don't count. I usually never expressed my needs and feelings, but if I did they were minimized or dismissed.
Questioning my sanity. I began to wonder if I was crazy because you put down my views and then deny things you say or do.
Distorted version of reality. Re-writing the past to make me the bad guy.
Walking on eggshells. One misstep can set you off.
Close but not too close. One of the feelings I have felt was that as we got closer at times, you pushed me away.
You're a loser, but don't leave me. When I finally got to the point when I couldn't take it anymore, thats when the tears, bargaining and threats started."
Our therapist read it aloud. After she finished, I looked him in the eyes and I said "I am sorry, I can see how you felt all of the things. I didn't mean to hurt you." He started crying harder than I have ever seen him. I felt so sad watching him and know he has been stuffing his hurt feelings for so long.
I feel lucky to know what it is that I need to work on and how he feels. I am going to stop thinking of him as a WAH, instead as a really hurt man
As we were walking out he says. Ok, let's figure out the finances now that I am moving. I was upset. I reacted mildly, then asked if we could do it later this week because I mentally trying to process our session still.
He came over for dinner and the four of us ate together for the first time in a very long time. He was saying things to the kids like, "In this family we wait help Mommy clear the dishes after dinner." Family. Family. He said family.
Ok, I am going to keep reading the list he gave me as religiously as I follow the 37 rules, but if anyone else has any input or pointers that would be great.
ffi (and others), this is a really good example of the dynamic that goes on in our sitches...
From day one, I'd often have moments of wondering if I was the LBS... or if I was actually the WAS...
I can't remember who it was that mentioned recently, that the words LBS and WAS are really just labels to give a perspective of the person here (working through the sitch) and the other spouse (who appears not to be working through the sitch)...
At one point a week or so ago, ncl made a comment to one of our members how the spouse was using classic "LBS script"... this almost appears verbatim how many of us feel about our (alien) WAS / MLCer...
If that's the case ffi... then why don't we find our spouses on these boards that the LBS seeks to get through this...?
Own what ever you feel is yours to own from what your H laid out, ffi... no more... and no less...
And from this point... work on that... and move forward...
hello ffi,
i think your approach to him ("really hurt man") will help you both. having compassion for him will help you protect his feelings and that will help you with you interactions with him.
just my opinion (and i'm not a vet or expert here).
great counseling session!
My H said most, if not all of those things to me.
And yes, they are hurting and hurting people hurt other people. I have worked hard to change those things about me because I didn't like that version of me.
But the "Really Hurt Man" was also a part of the equation, and as KD said, own what is yours, no more, no less.
Great insight.
I'm far from experienced at this but just finished reading both your threads. You're a strong person.
Cadet- thanks for putting the thread there- how do I do that next time?
KD- thanks for your input. I do own many of those actions, my IC and I had actually discussed them in a private session where she had me do some introspection. I want to work on them for myself. I wanted so much to avoid becoming my mom ( a weak, sad victim) that I became my Dad. This is important information for me to have moving forward, so I don't repeat this pattern anymore.
SS and bug- In a weird way, it is so much better than "the script". I never loved you, I am not attached to you, etc. That I have no personal control over. My overbearing actions I do. It was actually such a relief to have reasons for the first time. He is passive aggressive so he has never ever said anything like this.
It is a positive step, because I do own a lot of those actions. He needs to get that out and hopefully in time he can own his contributions (withholding affection, never giving an opinion).
At least now I have it from the horses mouth, what I need to do to be a better person. Not to keep him, but for me to work on myself. I don't want to pass these traits on to my kids.
Thanks someguy
I am working on it, really working on it.
I think its great that your H is actually working on his feelings. Obviously he surpressed his emotions for years but that letter is a start in him getting his feelings out. Give him the space he needs to get through the feelings he buried. Atleast he is working on them.
Is he in any individual consulting?? Keep going to the other C together even if its only to talk about moving.
I see a lot of hope. He has a lot to work through but he is admits that he burying his feelings that is a huge first step.
Validate Validate Validate
Ffi,
That's great that H shared that with you. Immediately read "How to improve your marriage without talking about it" if you have not. That was written for your sitch.
That said, don't be too hard on yourself, I'm sure you have your own catalog of hurts and unmet needs. Focus on what to do going forward versus deconstructing what's happened.
Peter
BM- I know it is a positive step. I thought he was a robot, he never expressed anything. When I saw anything I mean it. The first time I saw him get mad in MC is started laughing, I was so happy to see emotion. He was offended that I laughed but it was a happy laugh. Luckily he is also in IC as well (we have the same IC's and she is our MC). I am trying to not have expectations, but like Laura Munson says in her book, "I just don't buy it" in reference to him finding happiness elsewhere. I know that it is here, in our home, with our children.
ps- Happy birthday to your baby!!
Accuray- thanks a million for the suggestion. I just downloaded the audio version on amazon. I am a book junkie so ANY and ALL suggestions you have I would love!
Thanks!!
FFI, I swear, the letter your H wrote could have been written by my H. It made me sad all over again just reading it. The good thing is that you are in counseling, even if it is only about him moving.
My H refuses to go, and blames me for him not wanting to go. Another cross I have to carry I guess.
He has done the crying thing a few times since the bomb drop though, which he almost NEVER did before. I was being kind of skeptical about it, because I thought he wanted sympathy from me for him feeling so bad and wanting to leave, but I see now, I might should have looked at it a different way. And acknowledge more than I did (begrudgingly) that his reasons for being unhappy were valid. *shrug*
I definitely think the counseling session brought out some postive things. Keep working on the "bad" things that you own and can change. I too see some hope for your sitch. Just keep swimming! :-)
Hey RRMD-
I have been following your thread too, and they do seem similar. I think that the huge benefit I had was that the day before the C saw me individually and she and I talked about my contributions to what went wrong. So it was easy for me to validate him, 2 weeks ago there would have been a yelling match. Thanks for saying you see hope, it gives me hope
Have you read the book Accuray suggested?
Cadet- thanks for putting the thread there- how do I do that next time?
Go to the top of the browser on this page and copy the URL.
Paste it into the reply of your new thread.
Use the preview button to test your post before you hit submit to make sure the link is correct.
Submit.
Then do the same thing with your new post.
Paste that into the last post of your old thread.
Test(preview) and submit.
Then hit the notify button and ask the moderator to lock your thread for length.
Oh and I like to post links to all my threads at the start of a new one.
Hope that helps.
Man, this sounds exactly like my sitch with H. Exactly. He's so hurt from all of my actions over the years to the point that I don't know if things are reparable. Sigh. The list seems like a good thing, at least you have something concrete to move forward with. In MC I think I have been validating him, but I'm not sure it's making any difference, scared it's too late. So confused and it's so hard to not listen to what they say. Still working on GAL and doing okay with that I think.
I think our list is almost the same --- what are you doing to address the list? Maybe we can get some ideas from each other. The criticism part I'm really struggling with because he's so sensitive now that I've found that unless I agree with him on everything he gets very hurt. Even introducing another idea is interpreted as criticism of what he has chosen to do.
Journaling
How can I have so many emotions in 1 day. I felt good after hearing and seeing that my husband had emotions yesterday, I felt happy even to have all that information. I felt hope. Tonight I feel sad and discouraged. I had to cancel my trip with the kids that was supposed to be a family trip in a couple weeks. My therapist thinks that it will be too much for the kids, since they are acting out and my H is moving soon. I called the airline to cancel and then I just started crying. Not sure why. We have worked hard for 10 years to get to where we are now. Careers finally in place, home, dog, 2 kids. We were supposed to start really living and enjoying life now. We have everything we have worked for, finally. And now we don't. I divided our bank accounts today. I feel resentment creeping back in...........
(1) Change your signature. Your H seeing his L was about him needing to create space to lessen his own pain. It was *not about you,* it was *not about your birthday*. Don't make everything all about you. It makes you not hear or see him. It eliminates the space for genuine intimacy. Try instead: "4/2/12 Out of deep pain, sadness, and hopelessness, H consults a lawyer to empower himself to find a path to a happier life for himself. I'm glad to see H take ownership of his life to move it in a more positive direction. I want him to have the time and space he needs to figure out what that will be. I hope it includes a restored healthy M, only time will tell."
(2) What do you resent? More precisely, what is it that you feel entitled to that you aren't getting? We aren't entitled to anyone's love. There is no love that is not freely given. There is no love that is owed to another.
in reference to him finding happiness elsewhere. I know that it is here, in our home, with our children.
How do you know that?
It's a hope, an expectation and that can get you into trouble.
You can't control him and telling him, even thinking you know what is best for him is control.
Let him figure out if his happiness is elsewhere and you work on finding your happiness.
Try instead: "4/2/12 Out of deep pain, sadness, and hopelessness, H consults a lawyer to empower himself to find a path to a happier life for himself. I'm glad to see H take ownership of his life to move it in a more positive direction. I want him to have the time and space he needs to figure out what that will be. I hope it includes a restored healthy M, only time will tell."
I needed to hear that today. I forget my compassion in resentment too.
Wow, good posts, really good. It will give me food for thought while I am at work. Will write more tonight. Thank you.
Ah, my old pal, OT, here too. Well good! How's it going, OT?
It would be really good if you could take OT's advice about seeing your H's empowerment and really, REALLY embracing that this journey really *IS* all about him. You caught on with noting his sadness and commenting that he's a man with some incredible emotional pain. Remember that. It's compassionate AND wise.
OK, Fifi... again, it would really help your overall cause if you could really reframe some of those thoughts. I'm gonna help. Something tells me that your H probably feels as though you have financial control, as well as all the other super powers that you have. Having separate check books is going to help him. Yes, help him and by default, you.
He's undoubtedly going to feel that he can manage himself for awhile. You're not going to have that monkey taking up more free rent in your house either. It's okay to be scared about being on your own. Hell, I wake up scared every doggone day... I own my own business and it's tough taking care of myself and other people. But if you focus on what you are not getting out of life, THAT is going to be the dominant thought in what you get back. And the more you focus on how this is about you, the more you manifest that it will continue to be about you. That is not solution based thinking.
OT and I are not telling you that you can't be sad or feel scared and overwhelmed. What I AM saying is that you and your kids are going to depend on how well YOU bounce back. How well you find the good in things. How well you are able to take a step back and reframe what you categorize as negative and turn it into something that will ultimately work for you. You have to do this anyway, Fifi. If you're going to have your marriage reconciled, you are going to have to face the music that what you used to have will no longer work. You can't pretend that hammering a square peg will fit in a round hole. So you might as well start embracing this change. You can do it by taking small baby steps and literally forcing yourself to start looking for the positives in every single choice he makes. Don't you dare wait around for him to choose you. Choose you first. You absolutely have to choose you if you want your kids to experience a mom who can be resilient and put her and them first. No matter what your H ultimately decides to do, you're going to have to learn how to make a life for yourself - a truly, happy and rewarding life - all by yourself. Put those big girl panties on and a new set of glasses and get to work.
None of us knows what your H is feeling or thinking. Hell, none of us wants to be his C either. Let him figure out what it's going to take to become a happier person. He may be delusional and then again, maybe he won't. That's not up to you.
You are up to you. Right now, you are in the position of being the head of your household, a mother, friend, and commander in chief of you. So focus all your efforts on those roles. All of them, Fifi. They are the only ones you CAN control. Just maybe, if you can stop thinking about how sad you are, you will leave him wondering why he wants to be apart from someone so capable and happy. Hell, maybe you'll realize that you deserve to be happy and feeling capable anyway.
He's in emotional pain, and you witnessed that yourself.
If your best friend lost her mother and needed to retreat from her social circle, would you make that about you? I'm guessing not. So consider him in that camp too. Leave him be with his emotional issues. No matter what, at some point, he will have to address them. They are his business. You get to work on your business.
I'm personally thrilled to read that he gave you so much information. His actions mirror those feelings, so I'd say that what he said was his truth. The fact that he's giving you this information is a gift. Many folks here don't get that. So relish that you've been given a looking glass into his pain. And feel blessed that he shared it with you. As painful it is to hear that someone is so unhappy, it's emotionally honest. You want him to grow into leaving that P/A man behind, right? This is the first step. Relish it.
I saw a bumper sticker yesterday that really resonated with me. Enough to remember it... "Become a millionaire instantly! Count your blessings!"
Now get to work! Your happiness depends on you embracing change.
Betsey
Kaffe,
You said some things in your post that bear noting... because terminology can often become the impetus for our own behaviors.
Have you ever had a name for someone that was less than flattering and for some reason, it was blurted out? Years ago, I did this by referring to 2 people who acted completely dumb as Dumb and Dumber. It wound up making ME look dumb by saying it in front of a group of people including them. My mom used to tell us that our subconscious thoughts would come back to bite us in the butt. And Mom is usually right.
Which gets me to this:
At one point a week or so ago, ncl made a comment to one of our members how the spouse was using classic "LBS script"... this almost appears verbatim how many of us feel about our (alien) WAS / MLCer...
I think we diminish their pain substantially by calling them a WAH or even worse, alien. In our deepest, darkest pain, would we want someone judging us and then name calling? My XH left because he couldn't stand how we were living, and the only way he knew that things could change was if he did something drastic. He did. Our spouses, for whatever myriad reasons, felt that they would not be able to work on the M while living with us and feel they could gain cooperation from us. And in their mind, there is no working on the M. They simply want to find a tourniquet and stop the bleeding.
Listen, I'm not saying that they should get a free pass for walking out on their responsibilities. But the one thing they DID do right was to change a dance routine to force change. And don't kid yourselves that they don't realize the magnitude of the consequences, because they do. It's just that the degree of their pain outweighs the consequences at the time they make the decision to leave.
I can tell you without any reservation that my XH was the brave one in the family. I couldn't take how we were living anymore either. We had been in MC twice, and I was in IC as well. And unconsciously, I knew that we were going to have to have a lot of pain in the near future... at whose hand was the mystery then. That's why I worked so hard in my own life to make sure that I didn't make him feel guiltier than he was or to manufacture situations that would create emotional distance between he and his daughters. Because he changed our dynamic by making that first step to be a happier person. In my own sitch, that meant he had to divorce. He just didn't want to do all the work necessary to rebuild the bridges he heavily damaged on the way - so it was easier for him to cut bait. There are plenty of others here whose spouses decide that they DO want to put that effort into restoring the love that was once there.
So what I'm saying, is you don't want them to know you call them an alien behind their back... because it will not help your cause in the long run. So don't go there. Fifi got it right when she said that her H was a man in great pain. I don't think that is an alien. It makes him a fellow human. And face it, have we all not lived in that glass house at one time or another? We all have limits... the spouses who leave just have more drastic lines at that time.
I can also tell you from personal experience that my XH has expressed remorse and is still generally a sad person. It's been 9 1/2 years since he left, and he now recognizes that it's not my fault that he was so sad.
And one other thing, Fifi... you mentioned that he commented on family. No matter what happens to the state of your marriage, you ARE a family. You got married and created children. Nobody can take that away from you. My XH still tells people that I'm family. And he's still mine. We're just not married to each other anymore.
So Kaffe got it right by saying those lines of being a WAS or LBS are really blurry. Because they are. Being in pain is not blurry...
Carry on...
Betsey
Hey RRMD-
I have been following your thread too, and they do seem similar. I think that the huge benefit I had was that the day before the C saw me individually and she and I talked about my contributions to what went wrong. So it was easy for me to validate him, 2 weeks ago there would have been a yelling match. Thanks for saying you see hope, it gives me hope
Have you read the book Accuray suggested?
Hi ffi, No I have not read the book, although I've had it on my Nook for well over a month. I plan on digging into it this weekend though. Everyone who has read it says it has some great info in it.
Ok OT, I changed my signature and maybe my thinking
No one has said that to me yet, that I am making it about me. Usually everyone says what a (insert favorite word here)!!! That's why I come to these boards, to have my thinking challenged.
The resentment came from him always "promising" a vacation "next year" after the business is more established, the kids are older, etc. So I was resenting the fact that I was being advised to cancel my trip. I may still go, I have a coaching session with my DB coach tomorrow am so I will get his take.
Underdog- Because you give such great advice I will let you call me Fifi
Really though, I am sooooo not a Fifi! The line you put in there about if it was my best friend that needed space I would let her have it, it resonated with me. Tonight he is gone, first night away, sleeping at his new place. I am amazed by how calm I am. I actually do feel bad for him, all alone (maybe) over there. I have a house with 2 beautiful kids tucked sweetly into bed, and I am sitting by my fire. We ate a home cooked meal at the table as a family of 3. And I am calm. Not in a pile on the floor begging him to come home. I am proud of myself. I have a strength I didn't know I had. For today in this minute anyways, who knows what I will feel like tomorrow, maybe I will be in a pile on the floor, and I am ok with that too. It is a process right?
ok RoRo, pressure is on- I am on chapter 2! so far, so good:)
labug- ok, ok. I may be in a slight amount of denial, but I do think that his happiness is here with me and his children. I think it's a gut feeling, but maybe it's denial...
I hope you enjoy it, I certainly learned from it! Definitely good to see a MC alone first and strategize. Often they will let you guide them where to go and what to stay away from.
Good for you on your attitude today! That's progress.
Accuray
Thanks Accuray and thanks again for the suggestion. The MC thing is a bit funny because she is both of our IC as well. I think she is really good at what she does, but she can't do any strategy with me because of the conflict and also because she wants him to have to fight for me back if he comes. I use my DB coach for my strategy
labug- you are right. I just got it as I was brushing my teeth. If this is not where his happiness is than he is not the man for me. Wow. It can be right in front of me and I still miss it!
Does anyone have any thoughts on this email I received from H today? He wrote this in the morning but still didn't come home after work, just went straight to his new place. I had written him an email last night dividing our savings and going over finances, nothing monumental, just facts.
Here it is:
W,
Thank you. This is very painful for me. I appreciate you being so strong with all this. Yes all this works just fine. I am sad right now. I appreciate you taking care of the ameritrade. I will open another account.
The plans for this weekend sound good. What time is the garage sale starting. I can ride before or after. I need a few hours to train. I can go later and be back before you need to leave with (friend having birthday saturday).
Thank you for being strong for the kids,for yourself and for me. You are an amazing mother. I know that you will work hard to overcome your early life experiences. I am working on the same for me.
I appreciate it very much,
H
Don't want to read too much into it because IC says I like to "take a thread and make a coat". To me that sounds resourceful, but she thinks its a problem
Honestly I think you will say the most by saying nothing. I would not reply or acknowledge that at all.
My interpretation is that he is conflicted and is baiting you to push him farther away and/or make everything okay for him. Don't take the bait, remain silent and stick to facts and logistics.
Accuray
Hey Bets!
Good stuff about the false WAH/LBS dichotomy. In my book the difference is mainly a matter of timing -- who can't take the pain anymore first. LBS's are lucky because they get the benefits that come with breaking the unhealthy cycles without having to do the very difficult job of disrupting the status quo and being the "bad guy."
Yep, you got that right, OT... when my XH moved out, the people closest to us (including our parents) were really quick to villainize him. I knew that he had the toughest job, because had I been the one to leave, I'd have been the biatch and he wouldn't have worked AT ALL to change people's opinions about me. I galvanized my peeps and told them all, "If I'm working on forgiving him and we do reconcile, I need all of you to treat him as you did before." That was all it took.
Fifi, I'll write to you in a second...
Betsey
LOL, I really can tell you're not a Fifi, so I'm glad you confirmed that. I think of a very sweet poodle... it's like calling some huge 7 foot guy Tiny.
What a great letter! I'm tell you that I didn't get that validation about being a great mother until 2 months ago!!! Wow! I am completely in agreement with Accuray... don't respond beyond telling him thanks for the compliment and tell him what time the garage sale starts. That's it.
He validated you and your strength. So you take this one and run with it. At some point, you WILL be able to have an emotional talk with him. Your DB coach will undoubtedly help you navigate those waters. But in the meantime, you just stay on your side of the street and keep working on those improvements.
The good news is this: you know now that your best communication with your H is when you stick to facts and strip the emotions out of your correspondence with him. I know it doesn't seem fair, since he apparently enjoys telling you how sad he is. But in his head, this is all about him. So let him live there for awhile.
At any rate, you have a template from which to work when you communicate with him next. Apparently, e-mail is a good forum for you as well. Use that information to your benefit, okay?
Good job on working with the positives you have. Because they truly are.
Okay, time to get busy here. I will try to drop in tomorrow too...
Betsey
Hi fighting-
Welcome to divorcebusting.com--officially!
Your spouse has given you some tough things to hear. Are you in individual counseling (if you have said so, and I missed it, I apologize).
You have been given some really good advice from some of our vest vets.
I think you have to have some professional advice as well, from someone who is pro-marriage (maybe your MC is???) and separately from someone who can help you personally. Your H might need the same. The personal counselors should not try to end your marriage.
If the situation described in your first post (that your H was describing you to the counselor) is true, you might find a need for medication. I'm not saying its needed or not, I think it might be helpful for you to have that assessed (maybe you have).
Anyway, welcome!
Thanks for your advice OT and Betsey. I am confused. My H has been around a lot be he keeps telling me how sad he is and starting to cry (which he never has done in 10 years). How do I handle it, I tell him I am sorry I hurt you. Is that the right approach? I am sorry for my part. What is the best response to repeated sadness?
dbmood- thanks for you input. Yes, we are both in IC and MC, same therapist. She doesn't think I need meds, she thinks we are both have to work on family of origin habits to reduce these interactions. I have been making great strides at this, and she says that H telling me all of these things is evidence that he is starting to feel safe with me.
My question to everyone is, can someone be so hurt that they really can never love you again, even after you change your interaction style with them?
Thanks everyone. Feeling funny today because of all his sadness, I am sad too but not sure if that's ok for me to say.
Rather than making his sadness about you, apologizing, trying to fix it,
how about
accepting his sadness
acknowledging his sadness
showing compassion for his sadness
validating his sadness
here it is:
"As I have been working on myself, I realize that I do not express my feelings. I have been reading a lot. Other people feel similar to how I feel. This is how our relationship made me feel.
I censored my thoughts and feelings. I was afraid of your emotional reactions, so I swallowed my hurt and anger.
Criticism. No matter how hard I tried nothing ever felt good enough.
Controlling. I felt manipulated and controlled.
Dr. Jekyll and Ms Hyde. One minute you are kind and loving, the next your flipping out.
My feelings don't count. I usually never expressed my needs and feelings, but if I did they were minimized or dismissed.
EXAGGERATED version of reality.
Walking on eggshells. One misstep can set you off.
As we were walking out he says. Ok, let's figure out the finances now that I am moving.
Hi FFI, I hope you don't mind but I edited out some bits from your original quote, just to highlight the very same things my H told me. So, yeah, it was all there.
Since then, (and even during our time together) his P/A was always there - and it grew over the years. He was quite capable of expressing himself with friends and strangers, but not at home. He blames me for that - to an extent I can take responsibility for my own outbursts and I have been working on it.
But let me also say that over the years when he had one of his own criticisms of me, I would work on it.
These P/A men do need to do work on themselves too, and I believe the best way is through distancing yourself. I find that's the one that works the best for me (when I have been consistent).
Thanks for sharing your sitch!
P/A = passive aggressiveness
It was actually such a relief to have reasons for the first time.
I know, right.
OT- How can I not take advice from someone named Old Timer! Thanks. Don't laugh but I googled "how to validate some else's feelings". Ok, that's what I will do.
YankeeCandle- do you have any books that have helped you since we are in a similar situation?
Thanks!!
ffi,
Stick with "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" for now. Here are the cliffnotes: Men feel an intense need to be a good provider. When you shame them, by criticizing, complaining, nagging, etc. it gives them a "cortisol dump" in their brain which triggers a fight or flight response. This is a physically uncomfortable feeling, and they will withdraw emotionally to avoid it.
If this becomes a repeating pattern in your marriage, they REALLY won't want to continued shots of cortisol, so they will avoid you, withdraw, go to the bar, go to their mancave, work on their car, whatever they can do.
Women need to feel secure and connected. When men withdraw, this threatens women's security and makes them pursue to get that connection and security back. Usually they're not in a very good state of mind at this point, so affection and words of affirmation isn't the natural place to go. Instead, it's usually complaints, nagging etc.
As you can see, it's a negatively reinforcing cycle where neither one of you is getting your needs met, and your reaction to how you are feeling makes it worse. He withdraws, you pursue, he feels worse and withdraws more, you get increasingly frustrated and complain more, he feels worse, and around you go.
So many aspects of our relationships are characterized by these cycles. Another good book to read is "The Sex Starved Marriage", whether your marriage was sex starved or not, it's still a good relationship book about male/female dynamics. You know that men and women are wired very differently sexually. Men feel emotionally connected through sex, they will try to pursue sex to establish that connecion. Women feel emotionally connected through communication and quality time. When H doesn't give you the communication and quality time you want, you're not inclined to have sex with him. When he wants sex and doesn't get it, he feels rejected and is less likely to want to communicate and spend quality time with you and again, around you go.
The point is to recognize these cyclical dynamics in your marriage whatever they may be. When you see them start to happen, it can be helpful to call it out -- i.e. "here we go again, we're doing that thing where I do X and you do Y." Pointing it out in that way takes the personalities out of it and can help you break the cycle.
You also can identify what creates positive cycles in your marriage. If you compliment H on how well he does something, or tell him how much you appreciate it when he does X, he's more likely to do it. That makes him feel good, like a good provider, and he's more willing to connect with you emotionally. You can get these things spinning in a positive direction too, you just need to start to recognize the patterns and how to feed them.
Accuray
I am digging your Cliff notes, Accuray! Thanks for posting.
Thanks Accuray, I am almost halfway throughout it, it really does apply to my sitch. I just always like to have another book on order, for me reading these boards and the books makes me feel proactive, and it decreases my anxiety.
I have had an interesting weekend. H has been around a lot, hanging with the kids. He suggested that we eat dinner together tonight "as a family" for the kids sake. He then said that he wants to do that every Sunday even after the divorce and until I am with someone else and don't want him to come over anymore. Then he started to cry. I tried to just listen and validate. I felt like the conversations this weekend were all reversed, like I was the one leaving. But I tried to just validate, even though at times I would catch myself dominating the conversation and he should get quiet. At least I notice myself doing this.
I did GAL and go out with friends last night, but there is still a big piece of me that is not myself.
GReat interaction and dinner with your H and family. Great job validating. Keep it up!! It takes time and time is your friend.
I know sometimes when you GAL your heart will not be in it but thats okay. Fake it till you make it.
My favorite relationship books I read other than MWD's were "The Five Love Languages", "Passionate Marriage", "The Passion Trap" and "The Solo Partner". I can recommend all of those, pretty much in that order. I read a bunch more, those were just my favorites.
Accuray
BM- thanks and I see you had a great weekend! Excited for you.
Accuray- thanks for the book suggestions, almost done with the "how to improve your marriage without talking about it". It made me realize how much impact a SSM can have on a man. I totally changed in that area after we had kids.
Tonight we were supposed to tell the kids, but I have a pretty bad sinus infection and feeling under the weather so he said "let's just do it tomorrow". I think he is dreading it as much as me.
Tomorrow am we have 2 hours of therapy and my DB coach says my 180 would be to open up and be vulnerable like H was last week. I am nervous about that, just writing it makes my heart race a little. But no one said this would be easy.
He is slowly taking things over to his new place. He got an air mattress and has been sleeping on that when he stays there. I gave him some extra kitchen stuff and the name of the movers my friend used, since my coach said to pretend that it was my brother moving. He hasn't given me an official move date.
One of his main complaints is how messy I kept our house, and I have been really good about keeping it warm and inviting when he comes over. He did comment on it today, I said "thanks".
Even if we don't R our M, I can say that this has been good for his relationship with our kids. I can be a bit overbearing with the kids, they have to eat this, not watch that, etc. I have totally stepped back and allowed him to do what he wants with them. Although they are eating more happy meals than I would choose at least he is now taking a much more active role with them.
I have been kind of up and down this weekend, because it seems like we are getting along well, but I don't want to get my hopes up. I find myself thinking about the "what ifs" much more than I would like to admit. I am trying to trust the process.....
Hey Fifi,
Good stuff here. I really liked Accuray's synopsis of the book. I've discovered that his cliff notes are pretty much dead on with my own experiences. Then on top of it, we have P/A men in the mix. A pretty volatile combination.
I actually bristled at this, so rather than react here and project my own feelings, I figured I would ask you first how you felt about it.
He suggested that we eat dinner together tonight "as a family" for the kids sake. He then said that he wants to do that every Sunday even after the divorce and until I am with someone else and don't want him to come over anymore.
So... how do you feel about this? I mean what you REALLY want out of this. Not what you think HE wants.
I did GAL and go out with friends last night, but there is still a big piece of me that is not myself.
This is definitely going to take time. But in order to run, you have to walk first. You're just learning how to walk, so keep at it. Self care is a priority in helping this process. I should know... I do a really crappy job of this myself.
Betsey
Fifi,
Good luck with the C today. It *is* hard. There are no shortcuts, and the only way to the other side is through it.
I can be a bit overbearing with the kids, they have to eat this, not watch that, etc. I have totally stepped back and allowed him to do what he wants with them. Although they are eating more happy meals than I would choose at least he is now taking a much more active role with them.
Ya know, this is a great time in your kids' lives to address this kind of stuff. Lucky you! Some stuff you might want to put on the table for discussion:
1. Have a meeting with H to get on board with a parenting plan. I think all families should have one anyway. Agree on the boundaries, make concessions where you can and come up with strategies in getting him to be your ally with the kids rather than an enemy. Don't get too caught up in the little details, but use this as a blueprint from which to operate. Whatever you adopt with him, make sure it works for both of you and then back each other up. If they learn early on that you are going to enforce what their dad says, he will do the same for you. So the important thing is to get a system that works for the entire family and back each other up no matter what.
2. I have teenagers (as well as nieces and nephews), so this is a path I've traveled and continue to travel. While it is clear that kids need boundaries, rules and parents who are not friends first, your job is to help your kids learn how to make good choices. The good news is that your kids are young enough to do this. And you might win these skirmishes by controlling them now while they are young, but you might lose the war in the long run. So learn how to navigate them with success. Face it, nobody wants to be controlled!
Kids like having choices... so if your goal to win the war is to get them to eat at least 2 servings of fruits and veggies at dinner, give them choices between them. They have a say in the process, but you're still getting what you know is best for them in the big picture.
The same with TV or other extra curricular events. Tie those rewards to expectations... for example, it is not unreasonable to ask your 4 year old to set and clear the table and pick up toys before dinner. Reward them with a half hour of activity they enjoy... "You can choose either a half hour of watching TV (again, building choices in programs that are acceptable), or a video game, or coloring with me if you get your chores done."
This is the kind of behavior that prevents the nagging and baggage that comes with nagging, and rather than address the negative behavior, you are building up and supporting positive reinforcement for cooperating. I can tell you from personal experience that it works. It's not rocket science to adopt a pattern of rewarding behavior that is positive. They learn they have choices in the mix.
One of his main complaints is how messy I kept our house, and I have been really good about keeping it warm and inviting when he comes over. He did comment on it today, I said "thanks".
Great! Now get those kids to help you clean up too... you are not the boss in charge of mess all by yourself.
Betsey
Betsey,
I am glad that I am not the only one that finds the confusing, that he wants to have family dinner with us. I am confused by all of his actions. I am so confused after our session today, it was good, emotional, we were talking and interacting well, the therapist even said how much she enjoys working with us because we are making so much progress.
After the session I did errands and called my husband to see what time he was coming to be with the kids. He said he was at his new place and sad and crying so hard he can't talk. When he was here tonight he hugged me tight, for a long time. He never does that. He is asleep in S4's bed, said he wanted to stay in case one of the kids woke up tonight since I am feeling a little under the weather. I am confused, is he just saying goodbye? Is he just feeling guilty so he is trying to be a good dad?
What about that statement made you bristle? what is your take? I would love to hear your opinion because you are insightful and understand the mind of the P/A man. You are also not on my current roller coaster so you are much more able to give an objective opinion!
Thanks so much
I made a mistake last night. I think I was mis-reading my H actions. He kept reaching out to touch me during the day, hug me etc. Kept saying how good I looked. We were actually closer in many ways than we had been in so long. After the kids feel asleep I tried to initiate sex, and got turned down. He said he didn't want to "confuse things". I guess I was confused by his actions. Now I feel stupid, I wish I could take it back.
Tuck that knowledge away for next time, the past is past, learn from it and move on.
We all do those things that make us cringe.
This is the thing to remember: when you initiate and pursue you take away H's chance AND your chance to find out what he wants.
There is no chance of reconciliation until he has the space to figure out what HE wants.
Hey Fifi,
Glad that OT weighed in, because she's right about the physical affection...
I am confused, is he just saying goodbye? Is he just feeling guilty so he is trying to be a good dad?
Here's where I step in and say stop trying to figure out what he's thinking or doing, or analyzing his motivations and intentions. It's not productive.. period. That clearly belongs in the pile of "his business".
What about that statement made you bristle? what is your take?
Oh, I have an opinion, Fifi. But what matters the most is what you feel. What I'm thinking is this: are the kids going to be confused? Is it going to prevent you from learning how to get balanced through transition? And to a lesser degree, is it a good boundary for him to be able to maintain status quo? I don't think this would matter AS MUCH if your children were older. But they are basically toddlers and not able to grasp what is happening.
So what I'm really trying to say is that there might have to be some new boundaries created (and enforced) if you feel that this is counterproductive to what is best for the kiddos and for you. At some point, he needs to realize... at the least, acknowledge... that he can't pick and choose what consequences HE wants without first getting input from you. Does this make sense?
I say this should be very individual for your family. My kids were a little older than yours and I was able to reason with at least my oldest (my youngest is developmentally disabled but very aware). And yes, my XH came over for dinner at least once a week way back when simply because they understood that it was just a meal and a way for them to have a little extra time with him at their house (my house). So please know I'm not standing in a hypocritical box, because I understand this one well. I just think the little kids are more disadvantaged in this situation. And then it makes more work for you trying to navigate those murky waters.
Again, do what YOU feel is best for yourself and the kids. I want you to know that I think that while you should take their perspective into consideration, don't be a martyr if this confuses you more. Your feelings come first, Fifi. So don't martyr yourself by doing what others think you *should* be doing if you clearly feel that it is not good for you.
Another boundary for you to consider:
He is asleep in S4's bed, said he wanted to stay in case one of the kids woke up tonight since I am feeling a little under the weather.
Well... that was nice of him under the circumstances, but... if you are feeling ill and can't take the kids, then ask him to take them back with him so you can recover. This is something he's going to have to do without you, Fifi. Just mull on that a bit. Part of the consequences of wanting out is actually BEING out. You can enforce boundaries lovingly. "Thank you for being there for the kids while I'm not feeling well. I really appreciate it. Would you mind taking them back to your place so I can get rest?" I think it allows for your confusion when he's dictating the terms of how he engages with you and the kids. Hell, it's even unfair.
Try to get what you need out of all this too. You are going to be the primary caretaker for awhile so it is imperative that you take care of yourself, Fifi. That's the one thing I really learned from this process. Right now, you have to look out for yourself and the kids first.
Make sense?
Betsey
I still cringe when I think of what happened last night. I walked into my IC appointment today and I said I made a huge mistake last night. She said, "I think I know what you are going to say." And she did. She said that would be a very normal response to the way he was acting during our session, because we really seemed to be connecting.
I spent most of the day trying to get it and him out of my mind. I really had felt detachment on some level until yesterday, but he was acting so connected I let my guard down. Lesson learned. I hope.
I have not texted, called or emailed him anything today. Pulling way back after yesterday.
Betsey-
I have been thinking a lot about what you wrote. Thank you for taking the time to give me such thoughtful advice, I appreciate it.
I think that I said ok to the family dinners for 2 reasons.
1. I want to give him a little "taste" of what he is missing, the kids are at such a cute age and they love dinnertime because they get our undivided attention, it has always been a bonding time for us, we used to do it every night.
2. The kids do really seem happier when the 4 of us are together. We haven't officially told them yet, so I am not sure how they will act after they know he has moved.
As far as the other stuff, I hear you. I feel like he hasn't had to miss anything yet, because he is making the rules. I get confused on this because before the bomb he says I controlled everything, so me being flexible is a 180. But like many people express here, when am I a doormat and when am I effectively DBing? I am not sure yet, still a newbie.
Today I guess I am feeling so confused. I need to detach and set boundaries. It is easy when I don't see him, but when he is here being a good dad and engaging me in conversation and grabbing my hand as he walks by me, it is hard not to get sucked back in.
Sorry if this post is scattered, but that is how my brain is right now...
I just found your threads and read all of them. There were some similarities in our situations, so I was interested.
I am at the beginning of this journey too, we've been going through this about 4 and a half months. I have really started researching and trying to follow divorce busting techniques for about a month and a half, maybe, too. I keep messing up though. Our lines are very blurred on how he says he wants a divorce, he is setting up everything to get a divorce, but he lives like he is going to be with us all the time, over every day, take trips together, more like best friends though. It is confusing for me and I feel like I am always trying to figure out how much is too much. I also feel like I want to encourage as much home time and contact as he will go for, in the hopes he will come around or decide against this choice he has made.
I just wanted to say hi and I'll be reading.
Fifi,
I guess I had assumed you guys have told the kids by now. Wow! Really? (I totally understand now why you would say yes to dinner for the time being.) When are you going to tell them?
I get confused on this because before the bomb he says I controlled everything, so me being flexible is a 180.
Great conflict, isn't it? Only you know the answers. But in general, try to separate stuff into buckets. You can't control things that are his to control. But if there are issues and situtations that are clearly hurting YOU, then you need to state your boundary and enforce it.
For example, I tend to agree with you on the dinner thing. You wouldn't have this as a boundary merely to hurt him. If that were a consequence because it wasn't good for you or the kids, then it would be okay. But the real reason is that it confuses you and the kiddos.
I'll give you a personal example too. In the first 6 months of my separation, XH used to just drop by and walk in my house, and start doing chores... like maintaining the hot tub we used to have, doing yard work, etc. While I totally appreciated the acts of service (his love language), it bothered me. He WAS doing it out of guilt and then would use it against me about how he still does all these things for me and blah, blah, blah. Although he was helping out the family, it became a resentful, bone of contention for him that came back to bite ME in the butt. I had never asked him to do those things, and having him just drop in when it was convenient for him really put me and the girls off kilter.
So after that, I thanked him for doing things for me, but that he did not have to do it. (A choice.) I would get someone else to do it or do it myself. And I also asked him to please ask me before coming over. That took much longer for him to do. But we eventually got there. Once I started taking reasons for resentment away from him (because it was his crutch in blaming me for controlling him), he slowly had to deal with the choices that HE made.
So be careful of those traps for your H to manipulate situations to suit his cause. Address them with loving detachment. If you can't do it now without injecting emotion, invoke the 24 hour rule.
I don't know if your DB coach suggested you keep a solution journal, but Laurie did with me and it was very helpful in monitoring and changing my behaviors and tactics. I would journal situations, how I handled them, and the results. If they didn't work well, I'd change things up. It held ME accountable for how I operated with him. I employed the 180s that worked and ditched stuff that didn't. I use those things with him today. In fact, that whole P/A thing with choices was borne out of my solution journal.
Because of my reactive, controlling tendencies, I employed the 24 hour rule. I forced myself to wait 24 hours before addressing stuff that wasn't working for me. I'm telling you without hesitation, that it was the best thing I had ever done. I STILL do it... with him, my work people, my clients and parents in the volleyball club (parents are bothersome things). It literally forces a fresh perspective, calming down, rationalizing things, and diffusing emotions. BUT - and this is important - if after 24 hours I still needed to address something with him, I gave myself the green light to do so. I worked on script outlines so I stayed on task and took it from there. And I monitored the results. I monitored the verbal and nonverbal cues he gave me. THAT was MY 180, Fifi.
but when he is here being a good dad and engaging me in conversation and grabbing my hand as he walks by me, it is hard not to get sucked back in.
I do not want to discourage you from allowing physical contact when he chooses it. So please don't read into what I'm going to say next. For early on purposes, until you get the hang of things, IF him touching you leads you to jumping to conclusions or confusion or even getting sucked into reciprocating and you find that it sets you back with him, you clearly have the right to stand up for yourself. (Again, I'm only saying this if you find that it leads you to emotions and behaviors that hurt your overall cause.)
A loving way to do this would be to say to him, "Can I ask for a favor?" (Hopefully he says yes.) "When you touch me or hug me without my consent, I find myself wanting to reciprocate and then I feel confused. Until I can respond appropriately, can you ask me if it's okay first? Thanks."
You own your feelings for it. Ask him for help. If he's willing to do this for you, that indicates respect for you. So don't be afraid to ask for what you want and need. You just have to do it in a way that you own your feelings and don't point out that his behavior is bad... because it isn't.
Crap, does any of this make sense?
Hopefully, you find something here that you can use...
Betsey
Hey Betsey- Thanks for the long reply. I am super confused right now on the boundary thing. He let himself into the house this am because he wanted to be here when the kids woke up. Seems like he is reaching out. Seems "nice".
At lunch he texted me that he got a new phone so he got a new plan, I could take him off our old one. It was a family plan of 2, he and I. So either he doesn't want me to see who he is talking to or he is trying to irritate me, show me he is in charge of himself. I really don't think there is an OW because he looks like hell and he is always hanging around here too much.
Tonight was "his night" to be with the kids (at our family home). He feel asleep in my bed with our S4, I had to ask him to get up and leave about 4 times.
After the phone incident this afternoon I called and scheduled a phone coaching session in the morning. Hopefully that will give me some clarity. I can't think straight right now. I will post again after my coaching session.
At lunch he texted me that he got a new phone so he got a new plan, I could take him off our old one. It was a family plan of 2, he and I. So either he doesn't want me to see who he is talking to or he is trying to irritate me, show me he is in charge of himself.
I would guess he's not trying to irritate you but rather separate himself from you. You can choose to feel irritated by it or to look at it as another step in his process.
This is detaching, allowing another person to make their own decisions.
If you get irritated about everything he does, you are allowing him to control you.
You get to control you, if you choose to.
My husband did the same thing about his phone a couple of weeks ago. I got an e-mail from the company to let me know it had taken his number off our plan, he hadn't even bothered to tell me! I had to ask him, then he seemed to think it wasn't that big of a deal, just part of sorting things out. He meant to tell me, but forgot, he said.
He got his own checking account too. I still control the family joint one, but he has his own to manage that he pays his expenses out of.
It has given me lots of bad vibes, because I am always on the look out for other woman signs, but I never see any evidence that there is one. And I've said before, if he does have one, she must not care much about him as much as he is with us. lol I just try to not act surprised, accept it, and roll with it right now. I am almost feeling like I expect one of these surprises every couple of days or so.
Fifi,
Good idea on the C today. Hopefully, you have some concrete stuff to report?
He let himself into the house this am because he wanted to be here when the kids woke up. Seems like he is reaching out. Seems "nice".
Was that "nice" sarcastic or genuine? Sorry, I don't want to assume.. written word is often hard to detect, particularly when you don't know someone personally.
If it was genuine, do you think moving out on you on the kids is nice? (And no, that is not me being sarcastic.) I understand that you haven't had the official talk with the kids yet, and that is why he says he's doing things at your house. But how long are you going to let this happen, Fifi? Those kids have got to understand that they are sitting in the middle of a change minefield. Maybe the answer is to do this with your counselors? I don't know... but from my vantage point, this is more P/A behavior. Is he waiting for YOU to do the dirty?
Let me put this in perspective. Are you going to be able to let yourself in his apartment?
Even more important.. and this is for 2012sf as well. Do either of you have a separation agreement with your husbands? Because you are legally on the hook for all debts incurred by them. They can finance a new sports car and leave you with the bag without an agreement. So if you don't have one, you should get one. My XH and I did ours right after he moved out with a mediator, which is recognized by the courts.
Hopefully your C session helps.
Betsey
I don't have a separation agreement with mine legally, just verbally. I currently am not working, financially he makes a lot of money, and he is having me manage all of it. (My background is accounting.) He is all about paying off our debt we currently have and has taken on a side job to throw even more money on it, so it just hasn't been something I have had to worry about on my end. If he wants cash, he asks me for it. I would bet he doesn't even know his pin number. I even have power of attorney papers for him. I really trust him in that area, and I know he trusts me to take care of things in the best interest of our family. I think that is probably a little bit of his problem, I have always taken care of things and he hasn't had to grown up in some ways. I hesitate to force a legal document with him, because I know it will just make the divorce that much more of a reality and it seems very unnecessary in our case right now. I will definitely start to pursue that line of thinking if I see more evidence of him pulling away to spend or another woman comes out though. I definitely won't stand by and let him reek financial havoc on us.
Had a good session with my DB coach today. He did give me a little perspective about avoidant personalities. I felt good after talking to him. We talked about boundaries, and how he needs to call before he comes over, we need to have a set schedule, that he should treat it like any other "friend's" house. He also talked about how he sees H "testing" me right now, to see if he can make me angry, which in an emotion I freely express that he is extremely uncomfortable with.
I talked to H via email today and we are definitely telling the kids tomorrow after work. He is meeting alone with our MC to come up with a script, which he will email to me before he comes over. I have asked him to do most of the explaining, since this is his choice.
Tonight my S4 threw the biggest tantrum I have seen yet. He is obviously in pain, and a lot of it. I realize that I am starting to really dislike my H. I understand there were things he wasn't happy with, but hey how about a conversation about it before you decide it's "too broken". I can handle it, I feel myself being stronger by the day, but the impact this has on my children is what I don't think I can forgive him for.
My coach today was talking about patience, and how much this takes. It is hard to have patience when I see my child in pain. My Moma Bear is out now. I want to protect them, it is all I can think of. I want to follow the principles of the DBing, becoming a better person, realizing my full potential. I am up for the task. Unfortunately for my children, I don't think my H has the same goals for himself. I think tonight was my turning point for letting go of outcome as far as my H is concerned. I need to focus on myself and my children.
Ok, I know my last post sounded very angry. It is the main issue I am working on. It is good that I have these boards because it prevented me from emailing him that same message.
That being said, now that I am calm, I still feel like my priority is my children. Seeing him place his needs above theirs does change my opinion of him.
Betsey- I did see a lawyer. She said a separation agreement isn't necessary in our state. I also do all the finances (minus his new checking account and phone bill), so I have a pretty good handle on that luckily. I actually have credit monitoring for both of us so I got an email last night about the "new verizon account". I don't think I have to worry about him doing anything crazy with the finances, as for the rest of it, who knows.
2012- sorry you had a rough day. I am going to write you more tomorrow on your thread about some advice from the DB coach since our sitchs are so similar
I just wanted to say that this entire thread really helped me look at my own sitch. I even copied and pasted a few good quotes for my own notes later.
I think OldTimer is a genius
Reading the info that your husband wrote in that letter made me feel like he could have spoken for my husband as well. My husband never said those things. He kept saying he was fine and happy until I basically said I don't believe you're happy and I'm not happy either. Then later he mentioned a lot of those things. I said to my IC when she said sounds like you're finally listening. I said yeah well he never talked before. And she said maybe he didn't think he could.
I HATE more than anything that it's taken this for us to communicate and look at where things went wrong. I HATE that we never agreed to look at it sooner.
You said that you changed your opinion of him because of his behaviour. I will say that I went through that period and he has changed again since then. This is all very very hard for everyone. I think both parties just try to get through it the best way they can. He later apologised for not being involved with SS sooner after he moved out. (he sees him as his son) So like they say believe half of what you hear or whatever...I made judgements based on comments he made and then he took responsibility and changed those judgements.
Good luck
Brit- I agree, Old Timer is a genius! I am glad that something in my thread was helpful. I think you will be VERY helpful on these boards as a previous WAW. Post all of your insight to us.
Tonight we had the "talk" with the kids. It actually went much better than we had expected, we were emailing back and forth about it and both admitted being anxious. Our D2 was oblivious, and our S4 was sad but ok. I feel like a weight has been lifted.
H was very standoffish with me. Said how even though he is the one leaving he is really sad. I feel like saying, "stop being such a victim and work on our relationship for our kids sake then!" But I didn't. That's new behavior for me I suppose. I do hear every day about how sad he is, but I can't guide his journey. When I first read the 3 face of victim that Queen had suggested I totally realized I was the persecutor and he the victim. It was so obvious.
Didn't do much DB because tensions were high. I did ask H if he could watch the kids because I have plans to go out for cinco de mayo with a group of friends (male and female, some single, some married). I guess that counts as GAL. Should I wear my ring? Haven't taken it off yet, but now that he is telling everyone we are separated I think it's fair for me to do. Anyone have any thoughts on the ring wearing issue?
I just wanted to say that I remember about 6 weeks after I ended our relationship I had a weekend where I didn't leave the sofa and cried a bit. H asked me what was wrong and I was like I'm upset, my marriage is over. At that point yes I was the one who ended it, but I was still very very upset. I didn't think we could work on it. I didn't think there was any hope.
Telling him to work on it for any sake isn't going to change how he feels. He may truly believe that there isn't a chance right now. But that doesn't mean he'll always feel that.
He only said to you ILYBNILWY less than 8 weeks ago. He may still be in the shock phase and is trying to process everything. When I was the WAW I was in shock that it was actually ending that I'd said it out loud. The realisation that my marriage was over. And I felt really guilty that I'd ended it. That maybe I'd given up. So I just kept looking at any of his behaviour to reassure me I'd made the right decision. Anything he did wrong was like validation for my decision. Then I was angry about things that I'd never mentioned before. It felt really theraputic to say and you never did this and I always hated this. Just to be able to say things I'd put up with before. Then I missed him, his company, his sense of humour. But when we got together old things that upset me were still there. (because he was hurting I think) Then he detached, GAL, and we began to have better conversations about our relationship. just thought my timeline might help!
My situation is very different as I don't have kids but I decided this week to stop wearing my ring socially/ on weekends but will still wear it to work (teacher) so coworkers who I haven't told wont ask/gossip and because I don't want to tell parents. I will tell you though- I feel sad without it on. I went out with friends last weekend and they made me take it off halfway through the night and I kind of became a wreck. I actually got approached by a man, which you would think would be a great ego boost but it just made me very uncomfortable/sad. The next day I cried a lot. H only ever wore his socially (doesnt like the feeling of rings/watches) so he didn't even take it with him when he left. Maybe try not wearing it in short bursts first- like when you run errands, etc. My recently divorced friend said you will know when it's time to stop wearing it (my time came after getting an email that H was ready to start dating- ick). Have fun tonight- regardless of what you choose.
What's your feeling about your ring?
What did it symbolize to you?
Is it still a symbol of that?
Or is that over for you?
Underdog, I love your 24 hour rule. I'm controlling and stubborn-(great combination!)and when I find out something I don't like, esp. like a new OW, I have a tendency to immediately send a text trying to find out what is going on. I know that I can't believe anything he says, because he's confused and doesn't know what he wants right now, but I still try to get answers. I think this 24 hour rule will definitely help with my 180.
Hey Fifi,
Hope your weekend is off to a better start?
I feel like a weight has been lifted.
Awesome. I think that the emotions that come with dreading something are darned exhausting. And I'm glad your kids were able to weather through the news and that you didn't have to do this by yourself.
I feel like saying, "stop being such a victim and work on our relationship for our kids sake then!" But I didn't.
LOL, would it help you knowing that there are days (9 years later) where I feel like saying this? Because 9 years later, there are still consequences and fall out in my house, and every once in awhile it pi$$es me off that I get stuck with helping my D18 navigate them. You're the grocery mom (not fun) and he gets to be Disney dad. I know... it isn't fair... but little in life really is.
And besides, this is somewhat of a narcissistic journey. They have little empathy but want you to have an abundance in it. The nature of the beast, I guess.
Didn't do much DB because tensions were high.
Great idea. You're getting the hang of it. Sometimes, the only thing you can do is tread water. You just have to make your goal not to do anything that will hurt your overall cause...
Anyone have any thoughts on the ring wearing issue?
I think Maggie got that right. You'll know when you're ready to take it off. If you have to think about it, it probably isn't that time. I was a little rash about that (took mine off within the first week), and that prompted XH to take his off too, though he told me he wasn't ready. So... don't do what I did. If you feel better knowing that everyone else knows, then consider it?
Have a restful rest of your weekend...
Betsey
I was feeling good this morning, went and got my hair done, went for bangs to change it up a bit. The kids and I took my brother to lunch for his birthday. My C told me a good time to talk to kids was in the car because they aren't looking at you. So on the way home I asked my son how he was feeling about Daddy having a new house. He said "Sad. You promised that you and Daddy would never live apart." His best friends parents separated about 5 months ago and when I explained what was going on I promised that "Daddy and I would never do that" because that is how I truly felt. I know I can't take what I said back, but I am upset that he is hurting. Then he said "Is he still your husband?" I guess it puts something silly like wearing a ring in perspective, but in that minute I decided to still wear it around the kids. Tonight when I am out- it's coming off.
Betsey- you were right about him trying to get out of "the talk".
Awesome. I think that the emotions that come with dreading something are darned exhausting. And I'm glad your kids were able to weather through the news and that you didn't have to do this by yourself.
He did try to get me to do the talking, before he left for work he implied I should do it. I resisted the urge to use profanity and call him on his passiveness. I simply stated that because it was his decision he needs to do the talking.
LOL, would it help you knowing that there are days (9 years later) where I feel like saying this? Because 9 years later, there are still consequences and fall out in my house, and every once in awhile it pi$$es me off that I get stuck with helping my D18 navigate them. You're the grocery mom (not fun) and he gets to be Disney dad. I know... it isn't fair... but little in life really is.
No, it doesn't help. That's the problem. If it was me, no kids I wouldn't even be on these boards. If you can't help yourself I can't help you. But his is their father. WTF. I had no idea he had this in him.
I think it will get better, just an emotionally loaded day with the kids. He is off setting up his new place and I am dealing with the fallout. Trying to remember to stay positive around them, glad I have this board for venting!
Fifi,
Betsey- you were right about him trying to get out of "the talk".
I'm sorry about that. I didn't want to be "right". It's just that I was married to his brother for 15 years. And I met a few really good friends here along the way who were also married to P/A men. It's how they operate. And frankly, it's really tiring.
I simply stated that because it was his decision he needs to do the talking.
Absolutely. And I'm glad you stuck to your guns on this.
Here's my ugly secret. When my XH filed the divorce petition, he listed ME as the petitioner. How's that for a true P/A action? I feel like I graduated magna cum laude from the P/A survivor school. Kind of funny that they married overly controlling women. The book I'm reading now explains how this works. I'm finding it interesting all over again.
He is off setting up his new place and I am dealing with the fallout. Trying to remember to stay positive around them,
Ugh, this was what I was trying to say earlier. I still have fallout, and we have completely closed that chapter. It's like herpes... the gift that keeps giving. I wish I could muster up a laugh, but I can't.
But in the end, the only way to heal and move forward IS to stay positive. You have to be positive that you and the kids are going to be fine, no matter what. That inner strength is something you're going to need, no matter what outcome prevails. Because if you think that this is hard, there are folks here who have reconciled and that is also darned difficult.
Off to bed. Hope Sunday goes a little better for you.
Betsey
I would be interested in knowing the book you're finding helpful. I think my H has P/A tendancies. And yes, I got controlling and he got more passive. He is learning to be more responsible and I am learning to not offer ANY advice regardless of how small or big it is, or how much I think it's needed.
i don't think you should deal with the fallout alone. i think every time your children suffer from this, you should text him or email him that they are suffering and ask him to help them. he needs to feel the pain EACH AND EVERY TIME, as the little ones do.
Here's my ugly secret. When my XH filed the divorce petition, he listed ME as the petitioner. How's that for a true P/A action? I feel like I graduated magna cum laude from the P/A survivor school. Kind of funny that they married overly controlling women. The book I'm reading now explains how this works. I'm finding it interesting all over again.
Betsey- thanks for sharing. I used profanity when I read this. It gave me strength. I realized I am ready to get off this crazy train and get myself healthy. At this point he doesn't seem to want to join me in changing the dynamics.
So I have officially detached. I feel like reading and posting here has really helped me speed up the process. Seeing how hard people here try, seeing how introspective everyone is, including the men, makes me see my H in a different light. He is acting like a helpless victim, and nothing will change about us until he sees that in himself. So I am GAL. I joined a women's only triathlon group. I am making plans with friends. I am taking pictures of my kids again. And I feel good. Thanks to everyone here for providing the inspiration
Fifi,
How is your week going so far?
Betsey- thanks for sharing. I used profanity when I read this.
I'm honored. Since I have a household of potty mouth women, I'm happy to have you join us. It really does suck, doesn't it? But if you got strength from it, then it was worth sharing. It still torques me off...
At this point he doesn't seem to want to join me in changing the dynamics.
But here's where you have the ultimate power, Fifi. By you changing yourself and how you respond (I deliberately said that word instead of react), you WILL change the dynamics. He just might not be on your boat right now, and that's undoubtedly for the better. I mean, who wants a grumpy a$$ sad guy around all the time?
No matter the reason, it's good that you're inspired to be a better and happier person. Take that one and run with it, baby. It's the value in this path.
Hugs--
Betsey
Fifi it's true this group is fantastic in helping you speed up. Unlike your friends or family they've all been there. I learn so much reading everyone else's sitch's.
A triathalon group? GO YOU!!! that's fantastic. You'll have a set goal/event to work towards. Good job on the GAL front.
yes enjoy those kids! My son is 16. They grow up so quick.
Hey Fifi,
How's it going? Too quiet here on your thread...
Betsey
I also came to check on you- hopefully you are too busy and happy to write
I am still here
I have been so confused recently, so this post may be a bit all over the place.
The kids have been having a really hard time and I have had trouble coping with that. I do text/ call my H every time there is an incident and he doesn't really say or do much except to say "that's sad" or "that's upsetting". I am so disappointed in him, I thought I married such a "nice guy". I am reading the book "No More Mr Nice Guy" and I am starting to see how he really isn't as "nice" as he seems. That his personal issues extend way beyond what I realized.
I am really making progress in my personal therapy, and I see that there is no way that I can return to my previous relationship dynamics. They were so dysfunctional. From reading these boards and working with my IC I see that we had a pursuer/ distancer relationship. Guess who's the pursuer:)
We had a session with our MC today, for "co-parenting therapy". He is all over the place. He did say that he didn't mean it when he said he never loved me and had never been attracted to me, and he was crying when he said it. I didn't react or respond, I think I am too detached at this point. I said "thanks for telling me that, it really hurt my feelings when you said those things." All day after the session (our D2 had a Dr appt) he kept trying to rub my back/ touch me. But I resisted his touches.
I feel like he is trying to bait me back in because he can sense my detachment. I don't want to let my guard down because I don't trust him anymore.
I am thinking about scheduling an appointment with a mediator. I want him to file and list himself as the petitioner. He is still wearing his ring (I took mine off about a week ago), and hasn't moved all of his stuff out yet. But he is not a H or friend to me at all. He is just passive aggressive enough to never file and keep stringing me along for years. I guess I shouldn't have named myself "fighting for it" after all.....
Fifi,
First of all, I think your name is a fitting moniker. Fighting for it means the whole caboodle. Not Fighting for Him. So... you now have your eyes wide open and are open to seeing the truth rather than what you wanted to buy into when he left? Awesome. Truth is incredibly powerful, friend.
I am reading the book "No More Mr Nice Guy" and I am starting to see how he really isn't as "nice" as he seems.
Great book... and I couldn't agree with you more. P/A is definitely NOT nice behavior. Leaving your family because you're not man enough to seek help in the framework of your marriage is total chickensh!t.
From reading these boards and working with my IC I see that we had a pursuer/ distancer relationship. Guess who's the pursuer:)
Very common in P/A relationships. That fit me to a T too. And don't you dare take all the blame for being the pursuer. He was part of that dynamic, because it suited him to set you up. If your H is anything like my XH, when I asked about stuff, he told me that I was crazy and that I had a problem. When he left, he then told me that I was smart for figuring it out, but dumb to let it go. Nice. (Those words were thrown at me as he packed to move out during the Christmas holidays.)
I feel like he is trying to bait me back in because he can sense my detachment.
Oh, yeah. The manipulator realizes that you are finally galvanizing and making decisions... and afraid that the rules of the game might be changing. Stick to your guns. No matter what, it's a game changer and you need that in the long run. It's what pushes him out of victim mode.
I am thinking about scheduling an appointment with a mediator. I want him to file and list himself as the petitioner.
Mediation doesn't necessarily force you to make those decisions now, Fifi. I used mediation to get XH to agree to milestones. I wanted to make absolutely sure that we had no other alternatives for as long as I could for my girls. The entire 2 years I waited (I agreed to give it an extra year when his mom died a year after he left), I was busy changing and making decisions for myself, so by the time he filed (yes, listing me as the petitioner), it was pretty much done for me. I say pretty much because going through the D process is still hard.
and hasn't moved all of his stuff out yet.
Yah, I have stuff in my house and garage that is XH's too. I think I need to load it in D18's car and have her deliver his crap.
Now, for the most important part:
The kids have been having a really hard time and I have had trouble coping with that.
Oh Fifi, this is the worst part of the entire process. Even as young as your kids are (particularly the 4 year old), if his actions do not mirror his words, they notice. And you're left with their bereft feelings. I do understand. But if you do anything right in your life, this will be it. Take care of them and protect them to death. You seem like this person, so I am confident that you ARE this person.
For all the folks that say kids are resilient... well, they are to a certain extent. But parents who abandon them leave a big hole in their heart. Make this work for them in the big picture...
I have another friend from this BB named MicheleTW who has the worst XH on the planet. Even worse, he's an even worse example of a father. She's a successful life coach whose kids REALLY struggled with this, particularly her daughter (the youngest of 2), who was formerly her daddy's little sugar girl. He pretended he still was, but didn't show up to her events. His actions were clearly disconnected from his words. Why am I telling you this?
Because for the longest time, she'd do her level best to make up for his transgressions. She'd minimize his motives, make excuses for him, and try to make him seem less offensive because he was their dad. Her kids struggled more with this dynamic.
Then she decided to be brilliant and concluded that it wasn't her job to be his smoke screen. Her job was to help her kids navigate their disappointment. From that day on, her kids have been better adjusted, and she truly believes that this path helped them both develop skills that were very well suited for the real adult world. Her now 19 year old son told her that she was the only person in the entire world that he could really, REALLY trust. He trusts her to be honest with him and to be there for him when he stumbles. She gets an A+ in my book on that one.
Your job is to facilitate their relationship with their Dad. Honor commitments you keep for their benefit. But if he does not do his part, it is not your job to protect him. You don't malign him to them, but you teach them how to not only survive, but thrive in a disappointing world. All 3 of you are young enough to come out on the sunny side of this process... even if you reconcile.
Even in my P/A world, my XH is a terrific dad. I hope that your H decides to put them first too. It really helps. And I'll tell you that mediation really helped us in that front. We had clearly defined parenting time with expectations and rules of engagement. Once we got to a point where we trusted each other again, we weren't so sticky on the small stuff. With the exception of the first year of our separation, we have shared pretty much every holiday together and enjoyed them. (I mean that with every bit of sincerity.) He's been easier to work with because of this process.
I pray for the same for you. Interview a couple of mediators. I found one we both really liked. He was fair minded and very helpful. In fact, because of him, we didn't need attorneys for the D... but it would have worked in reconciliation as well.
So... I'm giving you a cyber hug right now. You need it.
Betsey
p.s. Have you finally seen the light? That it's now time to make this about you? If not, you're really close.
Hi Betsey,
Thanks so much. I really needed that cyber hug today. It has been a rough one. The plan for my H was to tell his staff (he is a dentist and has 8 women who work for him) at their staff meeting what was going on. In therapy we clearly agreed that it was appropriate for him to say "We are separating, please respect our privacy." Well, one of his assistants that I am really close to afterwards called me and said he said; "We have decided to come to the mutual decision to separate. We have grown apart and agree that it's for the best. There is no ill will and its sad but we both know that it is the right decision for us."
MUTUAL? Really a**hole? I was at costco when she called and I couldn't stop shaking, I am so angry. He can never seem like the bad guy, or should I say, take ownership for his actions. He wants everything to seem happy-go-lucky, oh great we had this great talk about breaking up our family and it's gonna be great!!
He is a coward. I am ready to move on, I have lost any and all respect for him. If you are going to walk out on your family, at least own it. I am a dentist too, so this is my professional community that I have to "pretend" with. Seriously?
I called the mediator, we are seeing him this Monday at 2:30.
"We have decided to come to the mutual decision to separate. We have grown apart and agree that it's for the best. There is no ill will and its sad but we both know that it is the right decision for us."
Word for word what my H tells people. My H gets angry at me when I dont oblige and say the same thing. My H loves telling me how he has no ill will towards me. WTF! I am not the one that walked on a family with 2 little kids. I am so angry sometimes.
Mine says that too- "I have nothing bad to say about you"- um yah because I didn't do anything that warranted this behavior! Ugh. It's how they make themselves feel better because they know how awful they REALLY feel.
I feel for you ffi.
But it sure is script. My H says exactly the same.
My H says a 'mutual decision to separate' - I say, NO, you walked out on us because you 'didn't want to do this (i.e. family life) anymore' and you wanted to 'be alone'.
But, realistically, what COULD they tell people other than the separation story?
They could hardly announce that they'd walked out, or had left their wife and family for another woman.
And to look on the bright(!!) side, at least he is not saying that you are an evil b..tch.
My question is, what do WE tell people? And how do we avoid ending-up looking like a bitter ex with an axe to grind?
I just got off the phone with a friend who's divorce was final on May 3rd of this year. He said he never really told anyone his wife was a WAW, but everyone figures it out by the way we carry ourselves from this point forward. It did give me hope.
My H is the one who has to live with himself everyday, I guess that is the only thing that keeps me from calling the office manager to set the record straight.
I do feel good about calling the mediator. I am not going to wait around for him, he threw away our family, and we deserve better than that.
Fifi,
Crap. Isn't that what Brad Pitt's agent said when he left Jennifer? What a load of crap. I don't blame you for being mad.
Your friend who just divorced sounds like a great resource for you. Taking the high road is always a good choice, if for no other reason than your kids.
He can never seem like the bad guy, or should I say, take ownership for his actions.
Yes, a true P/A. I'm sorry. It hurts like hell, doesn't it?
If you are going to walk out on your family, at least own it.
In a nutshell, this is what I learned about this journey. Sounds like it hit a nerve with you too. You and God know the truth, though.
Good luck with the mediator. I think you'll feel better about protecting yourself once you do this. Plus you'll learn about any idiosynchrasies about your state and parenting and all the stuff in between. Don't be afraid to ask for what you want.
I'm giving you another cyber hug today.
Betsey
p.s. This might be your fantasy... but not worth being convicted!
Your ultimate revenge?
Today I am so emotional, I can't stop crying. This really is a roller coaster. I am grieving the loss of what I thought was my perfect little family. I am so sad it is confusing me, I had been feeling so strong:(
So sorry for all you are going through, Fifi. Cyberhugs from me too. Wish I could send you a cybermargarita.
Thanks Maggie, I did have a glass of wine. I am feeling a little more stable now. I just think I had some time to myself, to think. Usually I am busy with the kids, work, house, etc, but today I just let myself feel the loss of what I thought my life was going to be like. It made me sad.
Hi FiFi,
I am feeling you, and for you. Glad you are doing better right now! I think the worst part is letting go of that 'dream' in our head of how it will be. But honestly, we never know until the end of how it WILL be.
Hang tight on the roller coaster. I have ups and downs. Highs and lows. I feel actually happy right now. I know I am becoming a great person and rediscovering myself as an individual. And I have come to the conclusion that I deserve the best. So I continue to work on me and if H chooses to move on without me it's his loss.
Today I am so emotional, I can't stop crying. This really is a roller coaster. I am grieving the loss of what I thought was my perfect little family. I am so sad it is confusing me, I had been feeling so strong:(
ffi,
I'm, so sorry that you have been feeling so down - it's SO VERY HARD, I know.
I reckon this is a process (the extreme emotional ups and downs) that the lbs has to go through - it's just a normal way of dealing with trauma and grief, and there's no rushing through it or speeding it up - much like you can't 'bull' an mlc-er through their process. It just has to be gone through/endured.
Try to keep in mind that it is just a phase in a natural process and that you will feel better. And over time, the sadness does diminish...
So, just gotta keep this in mind throughout the ups and downs, and every time you get through a bad patch, things gets a little easier to cope with.
Best,
NLW
Hi-I am really REALLY new here, and I was just reading your thread. I liked what you said at the end about wanting to work on things that your H told you about, 'Not to keep him, but for me to work on myself. I don't want to pass these traits on to my kids'
I will remember that.
Fifi,
You've only been here a short time and aren't in a good place to act too swiftly. Protect your financial interests, detach, quit trying to mind read, don't try to predict the future, stay in the present and focus on yourself.
Stop psychoanalyzing and demonizing h for awhile. Just let him be.
Change your behavior. If he does something you don't like, be direct and call him on it.
It is a perfectly normal thing not to go into personal details about a D with third parties. Would you prefer that he say he is leaving you and then list all his complaints about you? No doubt from his side he thought he was being kind not to expose you to criticism.
There are two sides to everything. Neither of youths any sort of objective perspective right now.
You and h are both too all over the place. Make the big decisions when you are at peace with them.
Make the big decisions when you are at peace with them.
Good advice for all of us.
Thanks so much guys. I am feeling a lot better today. I think that I just needed a day to grieve, let it all hang out. Him doing something I didn't like just gave me a platform for the emotions to come out I suppose.
I am wondering if I feel ready to go to the mediator on Monday. I made the appointment for both of us, because I felt too upset to keep on going on like this. I think that maybe I thought I was fully detached, but obviously I am not. In actuality I was ( and still am) just angry. I feel silly canceling the appointment now, like H will think "I knew it, she still wants me." But I know it will bring up things like money/ the kids visitation that we may disagree on. I don't want to start focusing on that stuff, to give us more baggage if we do reconcile in the future.
I am so confused. If he really wants out, and it's going to happen anyway, why not start moving forward with it? He seems very, very sure.
I am so confused. If he really wants out, and it's going to happen anyway, why not start moving forward with it? He seems very, very sure.
Yes, confusion is normal...
Yes, he SEEMS sure...
Believe none of what they say and
only 1/2 of what they do...
If he was so sure... he would be getting it done...
So no... he's probably NOT sure...
Fifi,
Trying to hold onto the strings that bind you prevents progress. H needs to feel free to see what he wants. You need to let go to see what you want.
Putting in place financial protections makes sense. Settling on visitation makes sense. You need to protect yourself and you need these things settled to get rid of the emotional overhead. You both need space to breathe.
That being said, I think delaying the mediator by a week or two wouldn't be a bad idea. You need to see a L yourself (without sharing the visit with H) to know what you should seek. This stuff is a practical matter. It is business. You aren't going to save your M by being nice. Just take care of yourself in a reasonable manner.
It doesn't really matter what may or may not happen in 6 months. Right now you both need more financial and emotional independence. Get it in a way that doesn't put you at a long term disadvantage.
The goal is space and security -- both are needed now. Avoiding them won't help. Getting them may.
Thanks for your replies KD and OT. I think that I may have jumped the gun on the mediator appointment. I have seen a L individually and so has H, so I made an appointment with the mediator to get the ball rolling when I was upset last week, after H tried to ruin mother's day for me. (last minute cancel to take the kids for the afternoon when my mom and girlfriend had flown in to celebrate with me.)
I am speaking with my DB coach tomorrow am and I am interested to her his thoughts. This weekend I am GAL and going for a spa weekend with my girlfriend. Really looking forward to that!
Is there a thread on the thought " believe nothing of what they see and only 1/2 of what they do"? I would like to read more about it-
Thanks!
Havent seen any posts from you Fifi- hope you are okay
Hi fighting-
I hope you are doing well.
I too would like to have more thoughts on nothing what they say, 1/2 what they do.
When I try to apply it to my sitch I get confused.
Stay strong.
Bustingout