Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 04/18/12 04:56 PM
Old thread got locked:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2211192

W and I had a good period. Communication got easier. Being around each other became more frequent and pleasant. Then W said, "The more resovled I am to get divorced, the easier it is to be around you." That marked the beginning of some intense unrest inside of me.

"I can't just let her think that because I'm being quiet that all of this is OK. She can't just sit in her delusional world and think this doesn't hurt our kids."

I've been pushing her more often. Trying harder to get her to talk.

Now, I feel depressed. She's refusing to respond to me for the first time in a good long while. I found out she's been reading a book about Borderline Personality Disorder and DBT. My daughter just started DBT (dialectical behavior therapy) to deal with some of her issues. She exhibits some traits of BPD, but you're not officially allowed to diagnose a teenager because they aren't done cooking yet.

I'd like to read the book so I can understand a little better what I should be doing to help out my daughter and what the DBT is all about, but my wife actually seems to be unwilling to share it with me.

My W is convinced that I am sick. She thinks I have borderline personality in addition to my bipolar. I think she is looking for help in rationalizing her decisions and is unwilling to look at her own part in ANYTHING. I'm so frustrated. And now a crazy part of my brain is thinking that W is withholding the name of the book to get the upper hand on me on something.

I think she wants whatever parts of me that she finds objectionable to remain a secret to me so that I can't work on them and can't interfere with her rejecting me. Or something.

I know I need to disconnect and back off. I am just so frustrated.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 04/18/12 04:59 PM
I just called my wife at work.

"I'm sorry for being a little crazy some times. Please cut me a little bit of slack. This can be hard some times. I'm having crazy thoughts that you're keeping this book from me. That's crazy right? That doesn't make any sense."

She agreed and told me the name of the book was understanding borderline personality disorder helping your loved one cope with or overcome or something. She couldn't come up with it.

I told her I'm going to back off and I'm sorry for being so tweaky lately.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 04/18/12 05:11 PM
My Text conversations have been occasionally asymetric lately with me just dumping all my thoughts out over the phone. Here are some of the things I've been saying, in case anyone wants to send a 2x4 my way:

Quote:
Sometimes I will hold my phone in my hands for half an hour looking at a blank text, trying to figure out how to reach you.
I want to connect somehow.
I want you to come home.
"I don't want you to change me" (note: this was something I said a week or two before she came back with "I want a separation". Something I regret saying badly, and something that just isn't true any more.)
Think about that. Is that who I am now?
In so many ways, I am still the man you married, and in so many ways, I am different from the man you ran away from.
But you are still scared. You should have seen the look in your eyes when I said D15 wanted us to go back to being ourselves.
I'm sorry you're afraid.(note: W freaked out a little when I mentioned D said this and said something about how D just wanted her to go back to being miserable. So far from true, but WAW's mind is so... traumatized, I guess. Responses and reasoning just seem so irrational some times.)

S**t
I just realized something. I know why I can't go into my apartment. Shame. Being in there makes me feel ashamed of being unable to protect my family and for being inadequate for you.
I don't think I'm inadequate. I wish you could hate divorce half as much as I do. It is so hard to imagine why it is so hard for you to be open to trying to work on the issues that keep us apart.
I hate this life. It is poisonous to me and so hard. I get by but I often feel so horrible inside when I'm with my thoughts.
I believe we have a responsibility to our kids to find a way. So I'll keep looking for constructive things I can do. I will make sure the light is on for you. F**k, W. We can do a lot better than this.
Do you ever ever think of letting me back in?


In retrospect... That was a lot to say over text messaging.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 04/18/12 05:25 PM
The next day, W said "Please don't take this the wrong way.. I'm not trying to upset you.. but I really need a break and I am going to take off before dinner. I can make dinner first if you want."

I said "I completely understand. I'm not surprised you're looking for a break. You don't have to make dinner."

Then later, I sent her another book:
Quote:
I'm not surprised you needed a break. I've been pushing a little. Intellectually, I know I can't reason our marriage back into being. I need time and consistency, and compassion, and more than a little insight. But sometimes it's hard not to speak up.
But I get scared when I think you won't give us the time. I've got a lot of compassion to share with you. You said when I didn't need you any more, I might find that I don't really love you.
Well, I don't really need you. I've come through the toughest time in my life, and that is no exaggeration, with out your emotional support. What I've found is that I love you unconditionally.
Our kids, all three of them, badly need the support of a strong family. And you know what, when we give to our children, we need each other's support, too.
I think it would be a fantastic gift to your children if you could say, I see that Michael is doing good work and for some reason that I value (kids' best interest, vows, whatever) I will give him time to do his work.
I pushed because I can see that there is stuff that is broken between us that I have to understand before I can make them better.
I'm afraid to wait for (counselor - W is seeing her separately in two weeks, and with any luck, we may see her together after that). It's too long. You said you won't give us time.
Anyway... I hope you give us time. I'll try harder not to push.


then finally:
Quote:
What' the name of the book on your iPad? (no response for 9 hours)
What's the name of that book? (no response for an hour)
If you had a book that would give me the knowledge I need to fix our family, would you tell me? Would you let me have it? I wish I understood why divorce was so important to you and you can't seem to consider the alternative without freaking out.
Why is the idea that I am broken or we are broken (or you are broken?) so important that it needs to be protected?
Why are you so resolved to give up when I am pretty sure you have to be able to see that I am fully engaged in doing whatever it takes. You have to see that, right? Why do you still doubt me?
I have so much "why" and you leave me in the dark and make yourself a secret. Why, love?


There you have it. Stupid stuff an LBH says.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/04/12 08:20 PM
I'm back. I find it hard to be on the board some times. I want to think about my problems less, not more. Sometimes reading about everyone else's trouble is hard. There is a lot of struggling going on and my mind drifts to the overall theme of men and women hurting the people they love or at least loved once and how very sad it all is.

Many people, maybe most, don't seem to have the skills to support a healthy marriage and our society isn't lending enough support.

Things have goon poorly with my W over the last month. I've pursued and badgered and beaten her over the head with the idea that I'm a reasonable good person and everything would be better if she would just take a step back and let us work on stuff.

W is seeing my IC today to see how she feels about coming in for a series of couples sessions. My IC is *very* good at what she does, and strongly supports marriage. I trust her.

So, I hope something positive comes out of it, but I've become resigned to the fact that I have to plan on getting divorced this Summer because W is on rails, steaming on ahead to divorce land.

Not asking my W if she is coming to counseling with me Monday will be hard. I wish I hadn't pushed her away so much this month.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/06/12 06:01 PM
I find compassion harder to hold onto lately. I feel dark, angry, and resentful. Maybe she'll come to counseling tomorrow. If she does, I'm going to try to say as little as possible... because I am tired and can't think of anything nice to say at this point.

I've been reading "High Conflict Couple". It's a really great book. It would have saved my marriage if I read it a year ago - well, if I understood at that point my marriage was in danger.

I didn't know. I believed our marriage was strong. I believed I was such a great dad and supportive husband this would never happen.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/06/12 07:13 PM
I think she wants you to leave her alone. Just leave her be! Stop TM emailing. Stop sending her books and trying to get her to attend sessions with you. You've pushed her ever since you first started posting and you are getting in a darker place. That certainly is not going to be inviting to a WAW. Get help for yourself. Become happy for yourself. Have a life for yourself. Be a great dad. Someday, she may see life with you could be good for her.
Posted By: sweetbabyred Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/06/12 07:50 PM
I think you're asking her so many questions and she's feeling pressured. I know how hard it is to try to get answers from the WAS, but that just pushes them out the door even faster. Be patient and give her time. That's really the only thing that can change her mind.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/07/12 03:08 AM
Thanks for your thoughts, sandi. I really do want to leave her alone, but sometimes I get caught in "OMG! WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO MY KIDS?!?!?!"

She is planning on coming to counseling tomorrow. I pushed her into it. She made excuses about childcare. I fixed the childcare. She hedged. Finally I said, "Maybe you should come and explain to me why I shouldn't just move home now."

I sent her an email and said sorry for pushing your button, I'd like it if you came, but don't come if it's going to p*ss you off. I really can leave her alone, for months at a time, but I'm all messed up right now because I'm trying to talk her out of Ruining Everything by taking us to the next step.

I'd like to have her sit down with me and the counselor and negotiate whatever sort of space she needs so we can put off the divorce a little longer.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/07/12 11:14 AM
How do you know you can leave her alone for months at a time? Have you done in before, under these types of circumstances?

When somebody pushes me to be somewhere or to do something, and if I go to get them off my back....there is resentment. So really, the purpose of the meeting can be lost before it starts.

I have read several stories where the LBH pushed MC and the WAW would use that place & time to announce her decision to D.


Just leave her alone and take care of yourself.
Posted By: ces67 Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/07/12 12:19 PM
Hey AT, I completely understand wanting to push and IMO, the key statement you made above was "I can't reason our marriage back into being". Getting your W back won't be the result of an argument won (and you know this)

maybe its time to go back to "a beginners" view and allow some space (but don't announce it, just do it). The reasoning isn't getting you the results you want so what's your next 180? If I recall, you were making good progress just doing some acts of service like cooking dinner and things like that. Can you go back to that?

Every sitch is different regardless of the common themes because each of us are unique. You saw on my thread that I've pushed some conversations with m W lately. For me, that was a 180 because my tendancy has been to withdraw and hide my feelings. Is the logic & debate a 180 for you or your natural state?

Good luck with counseling today.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/07/12 03:01 PM
I'm having a hard time responding concisely. I really need help and I really appreciate having your attention, sandi. You are an amazing person for giving your time this way. I really don't want to mess this up.

I'm thinking about sending her the following email:

Quote:
I believe that I can show you a great deal more space. Our conflict today is, I think, that you don't see how that can possibly work. Maybe we have to make some kind of drastic change. I think Laurie can help us figure out how to do that.

I think there is a good chance that I am doing something or a set of somethings specifically wrong that are pushing you away and that with Laurie's help, I can understand what those are and stop. I feel that without you there, I have about a 15% chance of figuring that out, and with you there, I have about an 85% chance of understanding what to do and making you a lot happier and at peace.

You don't have to come today. I fear that if you do come, you will feel pushed and use the opportunity to drop some upsetting news on me. I think that if you do come with an open mind, you will reap immediate and long-term benefit.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/07/12 03:03 PM
ces, it seems lie your 180's have been really effective for you and I'm so happy to see some progress.

Shutting up absolutely would be a 180 for me, and a good one, but I feel my clock running out and I want an extension.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/07/12 03:11 PM
Oops! I forgot the first bit of the hypothetical email:

"The reason I want to go to counseling today is so that we can negotiate how I can back out of your life without disrupting the kids' lives."
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/07/12 03:33 PM
OK, here is the central argument. I believe that we owe certain things to our kids, and one of those things is a stable home and family, and another is to attempt to resolve issues that will pull their home apart.

In other words, we owe it to them and we owe it to each other. I think she agrees and feels terrible that she can't live up to her responsibilities. Instead she is emotionally shut down, and doesn't appear to be able to feel anything other than resentment and anger on many occasions.

Obviously, that argument hasn't gotten us anywhere. Maybe it has paralyzed her into doing nothing, but when I leave her alone long enough that she feels comfortable and says she just wants to move on, I come back and drag out those ideas again.

I felt that if I moved out of the house, she could have enough space that we could improve the situation. She feels that it isn't enough space because I come over to the house several days a week to be with the kids. She used to leave during this time, but since I have spent effort on doing things like cooking good food to attract her to the house during those times, she has spent a lot more time together.

I did spend a month mostly leaving her alone, but she would text me and I would text her back about casual stuff. One night she decided to stay up late and watch tv with me and seemed to enjoy being closer. That night I touched her arms as she was going to bed. She stopped in her tracks and said, "I'm so lonely.". I didn't know what to say. I should have said, "How about a hug."

Perhaps a week later, she agreed to come to my counselor where she said that nothing I was doing was enough and she was tired and she wants to finalize the divorce when the kids are out of school and move out of the house. Since then, I have been back on the attack trying to get her to back off for a few months.

She refuses to give me feedback on what I am doing and I only find out that she's not happy when she makes some upsetting pronouncement. I am so upset that she can't communicate and I'm getting more resentful that her inability to communicate was at the source of so many of our problems. She bottles stuff up inside and then it becomes a destructive force when she lets it out.

Her next relationship is also going to be a failure. She goes to counseling almost every week and I have no idea why.

The other day she said, "You asked me what I needed to make this work, and I told you right from the beginning. I need us to be completely separate for a year." I've been holding on to the idea of our kids still having one bedroom, one set of beds, one place to sleep at night. That's why I moved out. I'm so angry that she has been unwilling to commit any thought to how that could work. She's let me try to make it happen, but she give me no feedback.

Right now, I'm feeling tempted to move back home and tell her to move out if she wants space. She says she's going to do it anyway. I'm tired of supporting her childish, self-centered, bratty attitude.

Of course, I would probably end up regretting that.

But maybe all I can do is let her move out.

Or maybe I can make some drastic effort to not have contact with her over the next month and she'll back out of her plans to move out when school is over.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/07/12 03:47 PM
I ended up sending the email with minor edits.

Quote:
The reason I want to go to counseling today is so that we can negotiate how I can back out of your life without disrupting the kids' lives.

I believe that I can show you a great deal more space. Our conflict today is, I think, that you don't see how that can possibly work. Maybe we have to make some kind of drastic change. I think Laurie can help us figure out how to do that.

I think there is a good chance that I am doing something or a set of somethings specifically wrong that are pushing you away and that with Laurie's help, I can understand what those are and stop. I feel that without you there, I have about a 15% chance of figuring that out, and with you there, I have about an 85% chance of understanding what to do and making you a lot happier and at peace.

I deeply regret pushing you yesterday. I wish I could take it back.

You don't have to come today. I fear that if you do come, you will feel pushed and use the opportunity to drop some upsetting news on me. I don't want to fight. I think that if you do come with an open mind, you will reap immediate and long-term benefit, even if you don't stay for the whole thing.


Right now, I plan to switch to no-contact with her, which won't work with the kids and all, but I'll get as close as I can. I'm going to re-read LRT and double-down on it.
Posted By: hangten Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/07/12 04:09 PM
Stop going down the cheeseless tunnels. I forgot where I heard that, before. No more emails and texts. You will not be able to convince your w to stay. Trust me I have tried. The only one you can change is you. Do something for you. Make your self happy. I enjoy when my kids are happy. I do what ever I can to make my kids feel special. I get a new dress for my D. My D is ecstatic when she receives a new dress. My d thinks she is a princess. I will not tell my D any different. My s loves to be active. I take bike rides with both my kids.
Stop writing emails to your w. This will get you the what you do not want. Try to get your anxiety down. Try to slow down your thought process.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/07/12 04:37 PM
MWD. "Stop going down cheeseless tunnels" is in DR or DB, probably in both.

That was my last email, I swear.

Do men who care about being with their children ever become a WAS? Men just walk away. Women know they can walk away and take the children with them. I hate it.

Maybe I can't convince her to stay. And if I can't, you know what would make me happy? Eating at my dining room table. Watching TV on my couch. Sleeping in my house. Fixing the things that are broken because I am not at the house without the kids often enough to take care of them.

Fighting for more time with my kids. Coming after my wife for the taxes she tried to get out of paying. Taking the tax return she got out of filing separately. Taking the $5000 child care expense reimbursement she grabbed in January.

So... Do I start no-contact and hope for the best, or do I start going after this stuff because I can't make her stay? I have been avoiding this conflict in the hope that she would calm the h*ll down if I left her alone.

Maybe when she said, "I want to finalize the divorce when the kids get out of school", I should have just said... what?
Posted By: hangten Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/07/12 09:47 PM
It sounds like you want to win. Fighting is the wrong choice of words. Your posts sound punitive. You need to control your words and actions. Close your mouth. Let your w do the talking. Talking is not going to get you out of this. When she is ready she will talk. Only thing that you can control is yourself. Keep yourself busy. Don't use your kids as a bargaining chip. The kids want to see both of you.

Believe nothing what she says and half of what she does.
Practice patience. Time is needed to heal the hurt. It has taken a bout a year for my w to talk with me without a hint of anger in her voice. Keep the road paved smooth and don't scare the rabbit away. Your w needs to believe the changes.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/07/12 10:47 PM
You make me think of the commercial where the girl calls the guy to tell him she's not talking to him!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/07/12 10:51 PM
You don't set a meeting up to discuss how you will back off, you just do it. But I'm wondering what backing off looks like to you. I'm not sure you really understand what it means.to not smother her and let her get some air.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/08/12 12:08 AM
You may be right. I may not know what it means. I thought I wasn't smothering her, but I was.

My vow is for the next four weeks to drop all texts, emails, calls, etc. And even to avoid hanging out with her when I have another place I can go.

Is my tone is punitive? I think she should be punished for putting us all through this. But I'm not trying to punish her.

I have very simple motivations. Decisions should be easy. I feel confused.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/08/12 12:24 AM
When we talked to the DB coach today, she said she wanted me to stop sending the mean texts. She specifically called up a series of texts I sent her after she turned down some help I offered her.

My wife was sick, feeling terrible, looking awful and my daughter was not sleeping well. I stay at the house Friday nights, but this was a Thursday night. I offered to take care of the daughter for the night, and she said no. I should have just left and not texted her at all, but I got upset about it instead and sent her these texts:

Quote:
You leave me so confused. I'll admit that I like being here and being near my kids and seeing them a little extra. I'm not sure exactly why I like sleeping in the attic better than my apartment. I'm disappointed for me you won't let me stay. But I'm confused why the help is so unwanted. If I stay here another night, does it make our custody battle harder for you? Are you afraid of the kids enjoying some extra time with me? You certainly act like it. I want badly to understand you. And to understand why it is so hard for you to imagine being happy with me.

I am so confused why you resist the good that comes from me and focus so intently on the bad - and mostly on the past. Why are our hopes for our family so different? When did that happen?

I feel like you go out of your way to be not happy with me. I wonder if you put conscious effort into preventing us from healing or ever getting close again. I think you know for a fact if I knew what behaviors were hurting you, I would spare no effort into changing them into something positive. You would have to be crazy not to see that at this point. I am so confused.

If you wonder why I'm always assuming there is someone else, its because your pattern of behavior toward me matches that profile and at least it makes some sense. Ok. Now it sounds like I'm belittling your point of view. I know you act and feel the way you do for a reason. I know that you feel the way that you do. I just want to understand.

I'm sorry I'm being an ass.


I get that the texts were unwanted and unhelpful. I get that I should have held my tongue. The frustration wasn't about being turned down for help one night, it was me blowing a gasket that she has been impossible to reach the whole awful time.

But it didn't register as a "mean" email for me. And I guess that is the problem.

I thought I was doing better than this. I think I was once, but fell off the wagon when the illusion that things were getting better shattered.

I'm just going to shut up for a while.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/08/12 02:47 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
You don't set a meeting up to discuss how you will back off, you just do it. But I'm wondering what backing off looks like to you. I'm not sure you really understand what it means.to not smother her and let her get some air.


I might not know what it means. I've been living separately for around 6 months now. I have my own apartment. But occasionally, W will say she's not getting enough space, and I will ask how. What do I need to do differently? "I don't know." She never knows. She can rarely do much to describe what is bothering her. And when she does describe something, I act on it immediately.

So, the fact is that we see a lot of each other. I am at the house 3 days a week to be with the kids. W might choose to be out of the house, but when things are good, she doesn't. We go through stretches where we spend more time around each other, things seem a lot better, and lines of communication open a little. We might be doing the dishes or cooking and we can talk about more sensitive subjects without getting emotionally out of control.

Then she will say that she's not happy. She's not getting enough space. She wants to move on. She's made up her mind and she's not changing it.

I get upset because she never warned me. Things seemed to be getting better and then whatever bothered her was not something she was communicating with me. It feels infuriatingly obvious to me that if we were doing some counseling during this time, we would have the kind of communication so that I knew when I wasn't giving her enough space and what needs to change. Also, I would know something about whatever change she is looking for in me and how she would know that it is happening. (She says that I have made progress and she's happy about it, but that I still have a lot of work to do. She won't go into specifics. )

I get angry. This is unfair! Play by the rules! You never gave us a chance! I'm trying so hard and you're not helping at all! We owe this to our kids! I'm asking for so little. Why won't you try? Then the restentment builds and the texts start flowing. All I want is for her to back off, tell me what is wrong, let me back off, and give it time.

Then I will make some sort of radical adjustment and beg her to come to counseling to make sure we are going in the right direction. Sometimes she initially agrees and then backs out. Some times she goes to talk to the counselor independently, with the plan of following up with me, and then decides not to meet with the counselor together.

In two months, it will be a full year of this pattern.


I asked my W to speak with a counselor with me to try to get some issues out in the open so that I can make changes that have the best impact. Yes, I plan to back way off, and that is something I could have done without her input, but my hope was to have set some goals so that 2-4 weeks from now, she can see that there was obvious improvement in those areas and hopefully postpone her plans to move out for another month. And then another.

Her moving out will be an economic disaster, and will affect the kids in a negative way. I want to prove that we can make progress without her doing that.

Of course, she says her goal is to get divorced, so proving those things means nothing to her.


My plan at this point is to do a 180 on communication. No texts, no emails. I will try to be out of her space as much as possible. She mentioned my clothes still in our previously shared bedroom. I'm going to take them out of there today and she'll definitely notice.

I had planned on buying her a punching bag for her birthday this Saturday. (She is into kickboxing now. That started up about 2 months before she decided to leave me.) I don't know now if I should do this.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/08/12 02:48 PM
Obviously, I have to break the pattern by not going back into panic mode 2-4 weeks from now when she tells me my efforts are meaningless.
Posted By: horsewnoname Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/08/12 03:12 PM
Please listen to what sandi2, hangten and others have posted here. Many of us (including myself) are going through nearly identical situations. To my W's credit she has done a good job in helping to minimize conflict. Like you I'm terrified of damaging my kids emotional/physical well being. The best way to do that is to bring the conflict down to near nothing (please read Robert Emery's book - THE TRUTH ABOUT CHILDREN AND DIVORCE...though the book is about divorce many of the things the author recommends is applicable to a separated and still married couple...I'm not at all advocating divorce by the way).
I'll give you an example of what not to do (and what to do if you freak out)...a couple of weeks ago I found out for certain that my W was moving out - I blew up, totally lost it...the effect on my children...they were completely terrified. I quickly realized what I just did and did a 180 - I stated to my W that the apartment might be a good idea and that I would help her move. This really shocked her into silence and defused the situation. And we were able to calm the kids down as PARENTS.
So what we are recommending is that you give your W some space, do 180s, be positive, be your W's friend, and most importantly GAL! GAL! GAL! And read Michele's book DR.
This will be the most benefical thing you can do for your children right now.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/08/12 08:54 PM
There isn't any conflict going on that the kids can see, except for my D15/16 knows a little too much. She knows I'm trying to save the marriage and that W doesn't care.

I get aggravated reading books about kids and divorce when rule number one should be "don't do it. figure it out". I have the sandcastles book.

I accept now that I'm not going to stop W from moving out. The struggle will be still accepting that 4 weeks from now when I'm hoping all along she'll change her mind.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/09/12 12:05 AM
It doesn't work on a WAW when you try to "teach her", as you've stated. You've tried to fix the MR, and you've tried to fix her.....and you can't. You say you're going to back off and stop emailing.....but you haven't. You think she should be punished....but I can predict that if you try to be the one to punish her, she won't go running into your arms.

You must stop acting like this b/c it is making things worse. Stop trying to fix everything! And, here's a tip in case you ever get another chance to hear her talk again (or any other woman, for that matter).....when she's unhappy about something and is trying to talk about it, she doesn't want you to come riding in to fix her problem. She wants you to HEAR about how she FEELS! Look into her eyes while she talks to you, and keep your mouth closed. Really listen to her instead of your brain going 90 MPH, all ready to jump into the conversation to tell her the solution to her troubles. Women don't want that!

You need to stop spending the time with your kids at her place. As long as you keep going back there, then she's not going to miss you, and you'll continue to suck up all her air. Arrange to meet the kids at the front door or some other place, but stay away from her.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/09/12 03:27 AM
Sandi, is it possible that being at our house some of the time is helpful? She seems to like it when I make her dinner or lunch, for example.

I'm open to going that way if needed, but I want to put in two weeks of the current plan and see how she reacts. I'm going to try to stay away as much as possible, and refrain from texts, emails, etc.

We have a session with the MC on the 18th, and I plan to ask her then at what times she feels she doesn't get enough space. I know now that she will complain about behavior that I've already long stopped. That's frustrating for me, but it's still going on in her head. When we had the DB coach on the phone, W brought up that dishes were a sore spot for her because for years she felt like she had an unfair share of the cooking and cleaning responsibilities.

I guess it would have been great for her if I could have intuited that and taken them over. I did about 5% of the family cooking (not including breakfast, which was mostly me making oatmeal or cereal or scrambled eggs or pancakes, etc) and about 45% of the dishes (not including pots that needed to be scrubbed or anything "gross" - those things were all me).

I thought we had a division of labor. She cooked, and I did projects with the kids. I tried to clean the dishes if she made dinner, but it didn't always turn out that way.

Well, if she had said to me, "AT, I want you to do more of the cooking." or "I don't think you appreciate how much I do the dishes." or something, it would have been on my radar. That's a shortcoming of mine. I'm very bad at reading minds and I need to be asked.

Finally, about 3 months ago, I pick a few comments of hers and realize that she's still cooking for me and the kids on my nights because she thinks that I'll feed the kids junk food if she doesn't, and since then, I cook and clean at every opportunity. Good food that meets very high standards - gluten free, dairy free, fresh vegetables, few processed ingredients.

And finally on this call yesterday she finally acknowledges that dinner and dishes are a sore spot for her, after I have clearly made serious adjustments in that area.

I'm just saying that it seems clear that good changes will be ignored for a long time before they register. And if I am finally able to give her the space she needs, it will be a long time before she is able to tell me as much. I'm hoping to just get her to give some examples of when she has and has not felt comfortable with her space in the last while.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/09/12 03:44 AM
I had a nice day today. W was unexpectedly at the house when I was preparing for dinner, and she was cleaning in the kids' room. The mess in the kids' room is a sore spot for me because every time I see it I get angry that I don't have time at the house without the kids to get it straightened up. The kids are 3 and 7 and should do more of their own cleaning, I know. Don't judge me. I have an ADHD kid and keeping him on the rails is a big job many nights and on the nights when it isn't... well, we try to catch up on reading, etc.

Reading makes me angry, too. My kid needs extra time and help with his reading and instead he gets ZERO. 3 kids, two parents - reading can get done. 3 kids, one parent, with ADHD and a toddler in the mix - reading rarely gets done. And my WAW is able to think to herself, "Well, we're doing the best that we can, considering that I have no choice but to end this marriage." bah!

I'm sorry, I was saying how I was having a good day. Well, W was taking time off to clean the room and I was overjoyed. She wanted to move the bunk bed and I said, "Fine. We can do it when I get home from work when you've got the floor clear." I had to get back to work. Then she begged me to do it right away because she was feeling motivated about cleaning. It's been a long time since she's begged me for anything. It is rare for her to even ask for anything. She mainly just scowls when she doesn't get what she wants and I have to guess what that happens to be. Anyway, she used her old tricks on me... got really cute and smiley and really excited when I finally agreed to do it before I went back to work. It really reminded me of better times.

One thing W mentioned during our DB call was frustration that my clothes were in her room, so I came home on lunch today and took most of them out. There is no way she did not notice it, but she didn't mention it. It's possible that helped put her in the happy mood I mentioned before, but I think that was already going and not really related.

I made dinner. It was a hit. I did some more cleaning of the kids' room before bed and got the dishes done before W got home from kickboxing.

I left the house without any kind of incident and really didn't feel at all resented at any point today.

It was a good day.
Posted By: vera be fierce Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/09/12 03:48 AM
Originally Posted By: AlwaysTrying
One thing W mentioned during our DB call was frustration that my clothes were in her room, so I came home on lunch today and took most of them out. There is no way she did not notice it, but she didn't mention it. It's possible that helped put her in the happy mood I mentioned before, but I think that was already going and not really related.


Well, it probably didn't hurt, right? She may never say anything, but if the payoff is a happier mood, that's worth it. Glad you had a good day!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/09/12 12:03 PM
"She feels that it isn't enough space because I come over to the house several days a week to be with the kids."

However, you persist on being there. Yet, you ask her how or when you can show her more space? I think she told you pretty clearly.

Look at the response when you did stay away for just a few weeks:

"I did spend a month mostly leaving her alone, but she would text me and I would text her back about casual stuff. One night she decided to stay up late and watch tv with me and seemed to enjoy being closer. That night I touched her arms as she was going to bed. She stopped in her tracks and said, "I'm so lonely."".

That is exactly what she needs.....to miss you and to think of how M with you can be. She won't do it when you're there so often b/c she feels resentment towards you.

I hear all this talk about the house cleaning. Of course she likes having dinner cooked and the house straightened up! But a maid could do that....and your W would be just as appreciative. But for you, it's not making brownie points as a H!.

She has filed for a D, but she doesn't know how a D feels b/c you are there in her house doing her work and helping the kids with their work. She might prefer to have a life without you being there (since she did file) and she needs to see what it would be like if you still lived there.

Yes, as parents, we owe it to our kids......but sometimes things don't work out like we wish they would, so we have to get another plan in action. You are still trying to play H & daddy there in the house, and it's making your WAW crazy and pushing her farther away.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/09/12 04:04 PM
I am of two minds. Basically, "How can she do this (to me)?" and "How can I do this (for us)?".

First, how can she do this:
Sandi, you say she needs to see what it would be like to be divorced to see if she wants to keep it that way. Now, I'm going to appear like a control freak, I guess. Here goes...

I don't understand this as a need. I understand it as a selfish "want" that disregards the actual needs of our children. I get that she is resentful.

I don't believe that 20 or 30 years ago this would have happened. I believe I would have spent a few months on the couch and we would have worked it out. I hate this world of disposable marriages. That is not what they are for! Why is this OK? Why does my wife have a chorus of women cheering her on for "being strong"? So many women are clamoring to see another one of their sisters out from under the boot of a man. Women don't need men, except for child support payments, it seems. Where is the friend cheering for "Way to let him show you how he's grown!" or "Way to ask for what you want in your marriage and receive it!"? "Way to foster your children's relationship with their father, sister!" "Way to support your children's needs by working on your marriage!" "Way to honor your vows in a difficult situation! You go, Girl!"

Grumble.

I'm a libertarian-leaning liberal almost democrat ex-objectivist(Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged, etc). That's a load of contradictions, but why do I sound like some self-righteous conservative patriarchal authoritarian? That's the last thing it should add up to.

Part of me still bristles and wants to deny that she has the right to do this. I will concede that actually, anyone has a right to leave their marriage, and the reasons can be quite complicated. But not someone married to me!!! I'm not a bad person! I care so much about those kids and about my wife! I didn't know the trouble I was causing her was so hard on her. I'm so deeply sorry. I can't even conceive of how giving our marriage another shot could possibly fail. I would never let it!

I'm ranting. smile Thanks for coming this far. In summation: It's not fair. Whine. Pout. Stomp.

Maybe she agrees to a certain extent: She has no right to ask me to leave my home and children within the context of our marriage, so she has to end it. Because she does "need the space". And she believes I can't give it to her.

I'm baffled by the idea that an adult is going to "try out" not being married to see if maybe that is better. That was no where in the vows. Maybe it should have been.

I take you to be my wife, for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, until death do us part - unless I become unhappy for a time. In this case, let's get divorced and see if I miss you.

I wish we could have got this out right in the beginning. I would never have agreed to that. I would have asked for a provision spelling out how to notify the other party that the marriage was becoming unhappy and steps that would be taken to save it.

I think I'm not alone among LBSs in having thought that married is married. Done deal. Nothing is going to change that. Yes, I know there are things that make you, wife, unhappy. And things that make you happy. Pluses and negatives for me, too. But it all balances out to the positive, right? I wish I had seen the balance sheet. I had no idea how bad it was. I didn't realize that unhappy with certain things meant unhappy with the marriage and looking for a way out.

I know that there are terrible marriages and people married to terrible people, but I didn't imagine I was in that category.

So, part 1 "How can she do this?":
- She is an oath-breaker and untrustworthy
- She doesn't care about the well-being of anyone else
- She doesn't deserve what she's asking for
- I don't deserve to have to deal with this


Part 2: "How can I do this?"

I believe (on faith) that my marriage can be healed.
I believe that I have a responsibility to do what I can to heal it.
I recognize that I have to do things that are painful to make that possible.

I can see that the core problem is really that I'm afraid of losing the kids or of damaging the kids. There is a history of bipolar disorder (and worse) in my family. Becoming bipolar is the result of genetic predisposition and childhood trauma. I'm trying to avoid childhood trauma. My oldest daughter (D15) has dealt with the breakdown of 3 marriages now (her mom and I, her mom and step dad, and now her dad and step mom) and it has torn her to pieces. She literally has dozens of 1-to-3-inch scars where she cut her body to manage the pain and feel some control. Many dozens. It's difficult to know. She is in treatment, and has stopped the self-harm, but she still struggles hard with just getting by day-to-day.

S7 is too much like me. I worry about him becoming bipolar. He is already struggling with ADHD which has gone into overdrive since I've moved out.

So, my compromise with my wife has been: Let's keep the kids in their home and let me step out long enough to give you space. But I guess it's not really working and I need to figure out how to give her more space without hurting the kids.

I can stop spending Friday nights at the house if it helps. I've been thinking of sending her an email that says, "If I don't spend Friday nights at the house, what do you think that would look like? How would you want to do that?"

I can't just surprise her and stop doing it. She needs more planning than that.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/09/12 04:10 PM
Sandi, is there somewhere I can read about your situation and how you were able to see your H in a different light?

I get the feeling that maybe I'm getting on your nerves. Maybe I'm too dense. Maybe I'm doing everything wrong.

I really just want to save my kids. And my marriage. Maybe I really do have to give up on the latter.
Posted By: hangten Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/09/12 04:44 PM
Be careful with your rants. You sound a little too righteous. You sound like you want to be right. Try to empathize with your w. Stop with the sanctimonious preaching. Listen to what your w is saying.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/09/12 06:17 PM
I don't think it matters if I'm right or not. She disagrees and I can't make her see my way. I don't want to be right. I am right. The way things are hurts the fabric of society. A Strong America needs Strong Marriages!!!! (that's self parody, guys) I know I bear most of the fault in the run-down of the marriage and that I'm being hypocritical.

I think DB is great, but I really wish there was a way to reach future LBSs and clue them in on what is happening. Or how about a book for future WASs called, "How to fix your marriage by divorcing your clueless spouse and watching them SQUIRM!" Or something. :P

I do believe that Walk-Away Spouses did want to fix their marriages but couldn't reach their partner. My wife said that I became a brick wall to her and she just kept hitting her head against me and it hurt too much.


I did just think of another thing I can do to back off, though. I have my cell phones on W's account and that has been a pain point for her. (afraid that I'll run out of money and she'll have to pay the bill.)

I'm going to see if I can get that switched up today.
Posted By: hangten Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/09/12 06:49 PM
You can only control your actions. You can't control your w. What are you advocating hitting on her head and dragging back to your cave? You can not convince your w of anything. Every one of us has free will. If you have a libertarian streak than you will know what that is.
Posted By: totallydevoted Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/10/12 01:24 AM
Originally Posted By: AlwaysTrying
I don't believe that 20 or 30 years ago this would have happened. I believe I would have spent a few months on the couch and we would have worked it out. I hate this world of disposable marriages. That is not what they are for! Why is this OK? Why does my wife have a chorus of women cheering her on for "being strong"? So many women are clamoring to see another one of their sisters out from under the boot of a man. Women don't need men, except for child support payments, it seems. Where is the friend cheering for "Way to let him show you how he's grown!" or "Way to ask for what you want in your marriage and receive it!"? "Way to foster your children's relationship with their father, sister!" "Way to support your children's needs by working on your marriage!" "Way to honor your vows in a difficult situation! You go, Girl!"


I couldn't have said it better myself...society today makes divorce too easy. But, the fact remains that we can only control what we do...no one else. We can only be responsible for our own happiness. if my W would realize this she would stop expecting me to be her sole source of support...not to expect me to be perfect.

But it is what it is...and we must play the hands we're dealt. sounds like the detaching is working...and if not, then hopefully while you detach you GAL and make you the best you can be. If she still cares for you...and there is a little doubt in this D...she'll want you back. Unfortunately...for these WAS...by then...it's most likely too late. Which is their loss, not yours. Timing is everything...what's meant to be, will be.
Posted By: hangten Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/10/12 02:46 PM
I can't remember who posted this. I am reposting because it helped me.

reaching out" to her now = pushing her away.
Don't forget.

Your Consistent changes + Time = change SHE CAN believe in.
She MAY not choose to believe in the changes, but she sure as heck won't believe you if you keep drawing lines in the sand
and then crossing them.

*Be the best Dad I can-spend quality time with them not just exist in their presence; hug them and tell them I love them; help them learn, and grow; share as many experiences with them as I can; teach them self respect and respect for others; teach them to chase their dreams

*Learn to express my feelings and be vulnerable-say things that I feel don’t just keep them to myself; share my fears; tell people I love that I do and show them

*Be happy-look for the positives in every situation; minimize my negative thoughts; enjoy other people’s joy especially my sons; live for today but plan for tomorrow; do things that I enjoy
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/10/12 08:13 PM
My goal right now: Have W wait and observe before marching ahead with the divorce, and for her to use MC sessions or any other opportunity to explain areas that need improvement (more space, conflict resolution, etc)

I need to set my sights lower. frown

We W and I talked to the DB coach, W put some stuff out there, some of which I could act on right away and have. I am going to strive to reduce contact and give space.

I took most of my clothes out of the room and I'm going to finish the job this weekend if I can. I took my cell phone off of her account (which she thanked me for). I'm not sure what else.

I have a feeling W will meet me at the MC's office on 5/21 and we can discuss progress and what her other needs are.

W's birthday is Saturday. I was thinking about not attending, but I don't know if that's really possible. I've been debating on whether to get her a present. I thought I might skip out on Mother's day.


In other news, I got a message from the lawyers that the divorce is back on the books and they want to schedule a preliminary hearing. I did not let this derail my day and I was quite productive at work.

Now, I *really* don't want to be there for Mother's day. WAW fails at mothering in my book. I care about her. But I don't know how much I can ignore how much she is hurting our children with this malarkey. That's right, I said malarkey. I want to act like I'm not angry. But I am angry. And there is a primative reactive part of my brain, with a quiet but persistent voice saying, "I hate her.". It may not be mature, but it's what I'm feeling. I love her. And I hate her.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/10/12 08:16 PM
Also, I don't need to be reminded to be a father. Before this breakup, there is no question that I had more face time with all of my kids.

I let her kick me out in hopes of solving things. No dice. Now my relationship with my kids is within her new constraints and it really p*sses me off.

Years of waking up early every saturday and sunday and minding after the kids at every party or social event because she didn't seem to want to be part of those activities and would rather sleep away.

And now she wants to take them from me. Anger.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/11/12 12:06 AM
I am completely confused about what to do now.

I want to move back into my house and let her move out if it has to be this way. If I do that, it's going to really tick her off. I feel like I have to buckle down and prepare for what is to come and the best place for me to do that is at home.

My plan yesterday was to try to be as separate as possible. This is not the way to do that. But maybe it just won't work unless she actually does as she wants and moves out.

Sandi, I would gladly buy you a beer or a cake or a necklace but probably not a car for a bit of your time, advice, tough love or whatever you have. I know if I don't want to push her away - leave her alone.

But I feel that accepting that she is leaving leaves me with no reason to stay out of the house, pay rent and extra gas, etc. Whatever discomfort that causes her is nothing compared to the pain she has caused me and our kids and she can get over it by moving out.

Which is just pushing her away faster. She probably would never forgive me.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/11/12 01:49 AM
I just had a great talk with my W. I came away feeling more hopeful than I have been in a long time. I didn't ask her to change her mind on anything. I stressed that I wanted to find ways to give her space... I wish I had a recording and could listen through it again.

She talked.

We talked about some of the points in our relationship we wish had been different.

I left feeling compassionate, not angry. I confirmed with myself that what I really want to do is impress W by giving a lot more space. Not coming back home.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/11/12 11:56 AM
I'll try to get back with you just as soon as I find a few minutes. Didn't want you to think I'm ignoring you (and no, you aren't getting on my nerves).
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/11/12 01:24 PM
Thanks, sandi. I just feel like I've been doing this all wrong from day 1 and that must be frustrating to see.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/11/12 03:00 PM
I wish I could understand exactly what I did right when I talked to my W last night so I could do it again. Not right away. Maybe in a couple of weeks.

I started with let's talk about the divorce. I asked her what she thought she wanted to do with visitation schedules. I listened to what she had to say, and didn't react strongly to even the stuff that is really upsetting (Her taking the kids for the whole week and letting me have part of the weekend.)

I think she still wishes things would work out but she thinks that I am actually incapable of giving her the space she wants. She says, that would be a *prerequisite* for things getting better. First the space and then see if I can work on the other issues. She still thinks about the problems being things that I have to change and not the negative patterns of behavior between us.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/13/12 01:27 AM
Today I was depressed. It's been a while since I've felt like this for a day.

If I had a button that would make me unconscious and let tomorrow start, I would probably push it.

The fact that my wife contacted her lawyer to get things started again just days before her birthday and Mother's day makes the rejection feel so much worse.

She really does not value me or my contribution to our family is the picture that is starting to form in my head.

I'm tired. I'm sad. I don't understand why it has to be this way.
Posted By: totallydevoted Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/13/12 01:52 AM
hang in there Always...my w feels the same way. She feels that I don't contribute enough with the kids...and I've heard through the grapevine that her biggest problem wiht me is that I am too stingy with money....Whhhaaaaaaaaaa?! That floored me...everything I have ever done has been for my family. I'll give her that I'm not always there emotionally but fiscally? This from a person who we've had to fix her credit at leaST 4 times during our marriage because she has no clue how to even balance a checkbook. who racked up over $1,000 in parking tickets when she working downtown...WHEN SHE HAD HER OWN PARKING SPACE... but it wasn't close enough to the front door!!!

I have NO "toys", boats, jet skis, new car, sporting equip, whatever...3 pairs of shoes...never go anywhere...and my wardrobe is at least from the early 2000's. LOL Not to mention that because her crdit was always so bad that the mortgage is in my name alone and we agreed to stop paying the mortgage while our short sale goes through...so she's living in a 2300 sq ft, 4 bedroom home completely "rent" free while driving a 3 year old car while mine is 9...she has no debt since it's all on me...so her entire paycheck goes to her and the kids while they are there. Me, on the other hand, had to take on a 2nd residence (her idea) and ALL our debt...her net disposable income for outweighs mine right now because I've been such a controlling bully with our money (sarcasm)...and I don't contribute enough? Believe nothing what she says and only half of what she does...breath, breath, breath...

Sorry...just venting...your W sounds like mine a bit. I fully intended to post positives to cheer you up. hey, here's a joke for you...I'll keep it clean. LOL

"An Irishman had been drinking at a pub all night. The bartender finally said that the bar was closing. So the Irishman stood up to leave and fell flat on his face. He tried to stand one more time; same result. He figured he'll crawl outside and get some fresh air and maybe that will sober him up.

Once outside he stood up and fell flat on his face. So he decided to crawl the 4 blocks to his home. When he arrived at the door he stood up and again fell flat on his face. He crawled through the door and into his bedroom.

When he reached his bed he tried one more time to stand up. This time he managed to pull himself upright, but he quickly fell right into bed and was sound asleep as soon as his head hit the pillow.

He was awakened the next morning to his wife standing over him, shouting, "So, you've been out drinking again!!"

"What makes you say that?" he asked, putting on an innocent look.

"The pub called -- you left your wheelchair there again."
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/13/12 02:55 AM
Originally Posted By: totallydevoted
"The pub called -- you left your wheelchair there again."


LOL! Thanks for the pick-me-up. Good payoff on that joke.
Posted By: nb1712 Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/13/12 04:08 AM
I have to say alwaystrying, the thoughts and feelings you express in this post are exactly how I feel. My wife is still in the house but is planning to leave ASAP and her only reasons are that she is "not happy" and the old favourite Love you but not in love with you. I am just starting out on my journey doing 180s and cutting back the smothering and giveing space etc. Reading the forums here has definitely made me see that what I was doing before, which is practically identical to everything you are doing/done has not helped and I need to try something else
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/13/12 11:20 PM
I've been wanting to share some of my thoughts about marriage on facebook for a while, but I've been keeping quiet.

There is an article in The Atlantic from 2003 that cites MWD's Sex-Starved Marriage that I was reading back in November or December that I wanted to share, so I left that tab open in my browser. For 6 months. Anyway, I shared it, but my introduction to the article broke my silence on the issue of marriage.

This is what I wrote:
Quote:
Caveat: This is not about *my* marriage, per se.
I've done a lot of reading and a lot of thinking about Marriage in modern America. There is a lot of dissatisfaction on the parts of both genders, and it worries me that seemingly fewer adolescents have access to married parents, a stable home, and a model of a healthy working marriage. I think that children of all ages need those things, but teens have the least chance of their parents' marriage having lasted that long.

This is upsetting to me. Marriage and the lack of conviction and commitment around it now common in our culture is something that I think more people ought to be thinking about, especially those people in marriages themselves. I haven't seen an authoritative figure, but all the books say half of all marriages end in divorce - and they've all said that for over 20 years. My gut tells me that number is higher now.

Couples are woefully uneducated on what causes the deterioration of marital relationships, how to know when it is happening, and how to restore that relationship to health. After saying, "until death do us part; I do", it is so easy for one spouse (or both!) to take his or her commitment for granted and stand by, unaware, until their partner or their relationship is bent past the breaking point.

The article I'm sharing today isn't about all of that directly. It is about sex-starved marriages, which are an increasingly common phenomenon, according to marriage counselors. The relationship dynamics referenced here, though, are from the same pool of over-stress, role confusion, resentments, and detachment that are driving many marriages to dissolution.

This isn't exactly where I would plan to start this discussion with anyone, but I've had a browser tab open with this article in it to remind me to share it since before Christmas. It's time to close that tab.

There is no doubt in my mind that part of the problem we face as a nation is that in the rejection of standard gender roles, marriage has suffered. You conservatives out there are probably saying, "Well, duh!", but I'm glad misogyny is no longer something you can air in polite company. I'll argue there isn't anything wrong with gender equality, in all areas of life, and for the sake of future generations of boys and girls, I would not at all like to see it regress. I'm glad to live in a society where I am not expected to be unavailable to my wife and children's inner lives, and I am proud to have spent more hours rocking my children to sleep than many mothers ever do.

I believe, though, that in the wake of the confusion, resentment, and loss of a certain "mojo" brought about by haphazard redefinition of these roles, we as a nation and within each couple need to spend some more time thinking about how we ensure the new roles we choose preserve the magic of a secure marriage.


Article:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/01/the-wifely-duty/2659/
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/13/12 11:33 PM
Realizing I may have insulted some people, I followed that up with:

"Note: I am not associating conservatives with misogynists. I merely mean that watering down gender roles, which most conservatives would argue against, has been linked hand-in-hand with reversing some profound wrongs, even if it has done some harm to traditional marriage structure. I think that in time, more marriages choosing a wide range gender roles will will find healthier balances that benefit all parties."

Which probably didn't help at all.
Posted By: hangten Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/14/12 02:25 AM
If you have a thought, I might offend someone, why the hell would you post that? No it didn't help. You need to control your urges to telling everyone your views on marriage. You need to be the better man. Forget about the preaching. Worry only about you and your actions. Detach and control your urges.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/14/12 03:05 AM
Damn. I've been holding that in for more than 6 months. That wasn't long enough?

I really do think there is something wrong with marriage in this country and I want to talk about it. Do I have to wait until mine is resolved?

That wasn't to my wife or about my wife. Is it really that bad? I haven't had a blog in years. When I want to tell people what I'm thinking about, Facebook is where I do it. I'm 10 months into my sitch and have said nothing to anyone yet.

The fact that I'm willing to talk about this thing openly when I know it might be upsetting to my W is a sign of my current detachment. That post had very little to do with her and I wasn't thinking of her when I wrote it.


The truth is that I'm a little less concerned what my wife's reactions to things are now.

Maybe I'm off on the wrong path, but I feel more honest and whole to be saying this stuff to my friends.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/14/12 07:10 PM
I'm feeling more and more comfortable with whatever the future holds.

My wife told me in our last few heart-to-hearts that what she wanted all along was to be separate for a time and see if reconnection and reconciliation were possible down the line - 6 to 12 months. All along I was against it because it is just outside the boundaries of what I think marriage is supposed to be and far outside the bounds of what I want to do for my kids.

I have pushed hard to give my wife some more distance since the last time we've talked. I asked to go home early on her birthday instead of enjoying our friends' company as usual. I didn't try to see her or make any grand gestures for Mother's day. I stayed out of the rooms that she was in Friday night when I stayed at the house. (That was hard because W was hanging out with my D15, that I rarely get to spend time with and I felt depressed in general). I haven't called or texted except in response to her.

Maybe after a few weeks, this will make some difference and she'll be less inclined to move out of the house and move forward with the divorce.

But I'm not sure that's what I want any more.

I face two very different possibilities right now. One is to continue to be a doormat, let her have almost everything she wants, give loads of space, and employ squirrel-taming techniques to slowly lure her back into considering continuing or M.

There is more than a 50% chance that will fail, I figure at this point, and I don't think it's something I want to do (at least not for long) without some re-assurances on her part that she will either cool it on the divorce proceedings, attend some counseling sessions, or both.

The other possibility is accepting and acting as if I'm going to move on without her. That means moving back into the house (but still giving as much space as is possible.), putting the ball in her court for finding a separate place to be, spending a ton on my lawyer to begin the fight for equal custody of the kids during the school week, and coming after her for the tax money.

If she really needs to move out before we can have improvement, I don't see why option 2 isn't for the best. If we are never going to reconcile, option 2 seems the best. The main strike against option 2 is that moving back home back in August is what shot down my wife's hopes that we could separate and potentially heal in the first place.

She decided that when I moved home that I was never going to give her space and she had no option but divorce. She's really sore about this and acts traumatized when she thinks it might happen again.

That actually really annoys me about her. She acts traumatized a lot of the time. She looks panicky, hunched over, can't look people in the eye, shakes, and nearly every statement that comes out of her contains distorted thinking. (literally every one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion)

Obviously, she's not faking it. I feel bad for her. But it's not like I've ever hit her or yelled at her or threatened her. I'm willing to look at and change just about anything about the way I interact with her or anyone else to make the marriage stable, but I think her heightened emotional reactivity has more to do with her than it does with me. And, I guess, that's why she needs the space. Maybe she does need to detox and figure herself out before we can have a real marriage.

We have a counseling session scheduled for Monday the 21st. I'm not saying I'm going to move back in, and if my counselor thinks it's a bad idea, I just won't, but I would like to discuss it.

But it may be time to stop worrying about what will upset her and push her away and tend to myself and the life I want to have with my kids.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/14/12 07:43 PM
"One is to continue to be a doormat, let her have almost everything she wants, give loads of space, and employ squirrel-taming techniques to slowly lure her back into considering continuing or M."

Why the hell do you think you're being a "doormat". Listen, you made a choice which in itself is empowering. The doormat mentality is just a state of mind. You give her loads of space and what she wants because you WANT to. If you don't, then don't. She doesn't see you as a doormat. She just chooses not to see you at all. As much as you choose to get her attention.

If you're going to do things to ease things at home, there's nothing wrong with that. You just don't go out of your way to do so. You allow your W to make you feel the way you do. There is no such thing as a "doormat". You made a choice based on your values, convictions, whatever. Take strength in that.

However, if you consider to see yourself, again SEE YOURSELF as a doormat, then you will do nothing but gain resentment in the end towards your W.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/14/12 09:00 PM
"doormat" = risking losing (some) access to my kids because it is a contentious issue and fighting for them makes her very sensitive.

Maybe letting her feel that she has all the power in the relationship isn't all that good for it anyway. I think I have to draw a line. I'm not willing to lose my kids, and that is where she says she wants to go.

I will tell you that I am nearly 100% certain she does not want to lead me on. But I will also tell you that coded in her actions or things she *very* rarely says, I think she does think about having a separation that might allow for repairing our marriage. When I am patient and quiet, she does come closer.

When I say very little, eventually (weeks) she does open up to me a bit.

So that makes me want to tread very carefully. I don't want to scare her away.

But right now, I'm starting to feel that I'm not really being responsible for my long-term interests.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/14/12 09:05 PM
losing (some) access to my kids =

I want equal custody, at least. I'd be happy with full. She wants to have the kids during the school week and for me to have them part of the weekend.

I know that means me becoming disconnected from the teachers, the day-to-day business of raising kids, and really makes me a parental 3rd wheel.

I say no. Go ahead and tell me that I can still be a good dad even with less contact with the kids. To that I respond, "Kids are resilient. They bounce back from divorce." People say that to comfort themselves because they are "doing the best that they can do."

I'm not a weekend dad. It's not in my DNA.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/14/12 09:05 PM
The issue between your kids is separate from you and your wife.

You are their father, so are entitled to certain rights and decisions as much as her. Fighting for your kids doesn't mean that you let her do whatever she wants. You do what you feel are right for your kids. Right now she's not putting the kids' welfares first. She's only thinking of herself.

This is why I usually never suggest the LBS to leave the house. All it does is empower the WAS to believe they can do whatever they want.

"But I will also tell you that coded in her actions or things she *very* rarely says, I think she does think about having a separation that might allow for repairing our marriage. "

Mindreading. Don't interpret what she's doing. Just do what you need to do from the idea that you want to do it.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/14/12 09:07 PM
Originally Posted By: MrBond
Mindreading. Don't interpret what she's doing. Just do what you need to do from the idea that you want to do it.


Caught me.

I forgot not to do that. :P
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/15/12 12:13 PM
I spent 3 hours last night talking to a friend about whether I should move home because it's the best way I can take care of myself if divorce is inevitable, or whether I should continue to try to give lots of distance and hope for the best.

I had trouble sleeping.
Posted By: robb Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/15/12 12:26 PM
Ain't that the trut!! Children need their dads everyday.

Originally Posted By: AlwaysTrying

I'm not a weekend dad. It's not in my DNA.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/15/12 06:21 PM
New correspondence from her lawyer. He has scheduled a conference on the 24th. My lawyer said she would try to have it adjourned.

I sent this correspondence to my lawyer:
Quote:
Thanks, Anne. You guys are swell.

Current facts:
1) I am living day-to-day outside of the marital home
2) I am at the house Tuesdays, Fridays, and Saturdays to be with the kids. I stay at the house over nights on Friday.
3) I do see my kids most Sundays at church and sometimes afterward
4) I continue to desire time to resolve some conflict in the marriage, so I'm not eager to move back in the house. A friend described that as "an act of war". Wife really doesn't want me there.
5) Wife may never ease up and I may have to start fighting for what I think is mine.
6) Wife wants physical custody of the kids during the week with my having access during partial or alternating weekends and perhaps an evening during the week. This is unacceptable to me.
7) I want equal custody of the children, and I absolutely want some school days and some weekend days.
8) Wife is not interested in keeping the house. I am. That's something we can agree on.
9) I don't want to pay child support. I'll need all of my income to keep the house. I don't make that much more money than my Wife, and if you take her benefits into account, there is very little gap.

Perhaps I need to move home so that I am with the children more often. As far as I understand it, our agreement is that I continue to have a right to move back into the house if I wish to, even if it upsets her. Can she do anything to change that?

I filed an extension on my taxes because the situation is a disaster. She filed separately and claimed the kids. I have about $30,000 in income that I paid $0 in taxes in and probably owe around 10K. This was largely due to depression brought on by the breakdown in the marriage.
Wife has refused to show me her returns, has pocketed a tax return, and also has taken an approximately $5000 reimbursement from a dependent care expenses account and pocketed that as well.

I would like to re-file as married for 2011, split the tax liability, and split the dependent care expenses reimbursement. I'm going to need that money to pay for legal fees.

All of this is true, and still, I want to stall for time.

If you think this warrants a phone call, please let me know and I am available to talk almost any time.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/16/12 02:40 AM
I really wanted to try to be giving my W all kinds of extra space before our next counseling session so we can talk about how I can give her more space so that at the next counseling session we can talk about how maybe I *can* give her the space she needs and we should put the divorce on hold.

Today, I failed in a few ways. Wife was in a really bad stressed mood. She is getting ready for a weekend away for her cousin's wedding and she feels fat. She feels unprepared. She has no swimsuit. She may have said something like "fat people don't need swimsuits".

I said, "You seem really stressed. How about a hug?" She leaned in and pulled back at the last moment and said, "Oh, I'm mad at you! I can't hug you." "About what?" "About what you posted on Facebook."

I wish I knew why that upset her. I had a hard time dealing with the fact that I knew she was upset with me, but I wasn't sure why and it was hard not to call and ask. When she went to run errands, I realized I had been kinda slow on the fat thing, so I sent her a couple of texts: "Maybe you don't have the body you want right now, but you are an attractive woman. It's sad to hear you say you're fat." "I often think to myself, 'wow! That's a cute girl over there.'"

No response.

When she got home, it looked like she wasn't going to be happy as long as I was there, so I tried to get going (have to wash dishes and clean up first) but there were two loads of laundry sitting up in the living room that needed to be folded that I brought up there while she was out. I felt really bad about not folding them and I tried to ask my wife if she wanted me to help fold the laundry before I left. She actually avoided the question. She's going to be annoyed that she has to do it herself, annoyed that I left it there for her, annoyed that I was there to begin with, annoyed that I had to ask, annoyed that I didn't leave the house sooner, and annoyed that I left her with a mess. Annoying.

So I called her when I left the house in the hope that she would be able to talk if she knew that she didn't have to deal with my immediate physical presence, and I asked her if there is anything I can do to help take a load off of her.

It is so hard to resist the urge to try and make things better for her. I still love this woman. Madly? I've loved her madly for nearly 14 years. I guess I don't feel quite the same as before, but I do want to make her happy.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 12:15 AM
I'm preparing to talk to her tonight.

I'm so detached. Shouldn't be a problem. And yet, the reason I want to talk is to "make sure" she really wants to go through with the divorce at this point.

I am prepared to back off and give her space in a great many other ways, but if she is unable to put things off a little further, it leaves me little choice but to start taking actions she is not going to like.

And one of those is moving back into the house.

I think I'll say something like:
"I'm not pursuing you, really. Please let me show you. Also, please don't divorce me. I just want to give you space. So call me and talk about this emotionally charged subject. I just want to give us some time to let emotions settle a bit. But if you don't think you can, I'm going to fight you for custody of the kids. No offense."

I just hope I get the opportunity to say, "I understand how you feel that way about xxx" smile
Posted By: labug Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 12:21 AM
Originally Posted By: AlwaysTrying
"I understand how you feel that way about xxx" smile


I think we should pick that apart a little more... wink
Posted By: scaredsilly Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 12:21 AM
you're joking, right?
Posted By: labug Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 12:22 AM
That's a very funny post...at least I think you meant it to be funny.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 12:25 AM
Maybe the DB thing to do is to not have this conversation. She is leaving for a wedding for a few days and will be back on Sunday.

Eventually, she will realize I've given all my money to my attorney, and will get a letter from her attorney asking for her financials for last year so we can re-file the taxes.

I can just move back into the house without explaining why. See, the reason that I really want to have the conversation is that last time I moved in and it was a huge mistake it was a giant failure of communication. She believed I thought I could (and was trying to) force us back together and that I would never give her the space she was asking for. That wasn't true.

And it's not true now. I want to remind her that I do respect her needs and wishes and would like very much to have an opportunity to show that. But this divorce is an act of war much more than my moving back in is. She is leaving me without any other options.

I want her to know that this is preventable and that it is just a result of her decisions.


And I still think if I sat back and did nothing but DB, try to stay dark, and wait, she might just come around on the idea of putting the divorce on hold until we've worked on it a little further. Maybe.

Instead, I'm going to move back into the house, enraging her in a way she may never recover from.

Bah.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 12:27 AM
Originally Posted By: labug
That's a very funny post...at least I think you meant it to be funny.


My sarcasm is hard to detect sometimes. I'm not that deluded. It was meant to be a joke.

But it is self-satire. I'm trying not to have the conversation I just described, but I probably will. I have trouble figuring out what *not* to say.
Posted By: labug Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 12:29 AM
Don't have the conversation.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 12:30 AM
When I say I am detached - I think I am. I am ready for her to make this mistake if she chooses.

I am ready to give my lawyer another $3500 and another $3500 after that most likely so we can do this. I am ready to take charge of my situation and DO this divorce.

I can accept that if that is the choice she makes.

But if there is some possibility that I can impress on her the idea that I'm not a brick wall and that a little more patience is good for everyone... I have to do that.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 12:33 AM
I would like for her to have a few days while she is away in another city (at her cousin's wedding - she is a bridesmaid) to consider that we can call a ceasefire a little while longer and I won't be living in the house. And that if she doesn't, it's her choice, not mine.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 03:24 AM
Originally Posted By: labug
Don't have the conversation.


Good advice. Had the talk. Honestly, I think I do a lot better than I did 6 or 9 months ago. I never felt anything other than calm.

She's upset. That isn't going to be my problem any more.

She *really* does not appreciate me. Words bend and have no meaning around her. If I change my mind on something, then she says that I lied. Often it's not even changing my mind, but clarifying my views based on context.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 05:00 AM
Re: not feeling anything other than calm... I still feel calm, but I also stayed up until 1AM. Being totally calm. frown

Good night.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 02:12 PM
I told her last night that I'm going to move back in if she doesn't push back the divorce. There is no point in staying out if she won't be reached and I want to be with my kids.

I told her I would do almost anything to avoid this path but it's her choice. She lashed out in response. She said that I can't see what I'm not capable of doing.

This morning I opened my own checking account and transferred my money there.
Posted By: labug Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 02:40 PM
Did the conversation get you closer to where you want to be?
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 02:51 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
Did the conversation get you closer to where you want to be?


Wait, are you trying to be funny now? smile I didn't expect her to immediately back down. I expected her to react negatively. I just wanted to plant the idea, if at all possible, that my deepest desire is to give her space and give our relationship the best chance of improving.

Unfortunately, her choices make that impossible for me. We are entering a more overtly antagonistic period now, but my wish is to back off and do it a different way.

Probably, she didn't hear anything I said. Her filter on my words is so twisted, it is nearly impossible to communicate.

Maybe something did catch, and while she is away at her cousin's wedding, she can think about it.

I don't plan on bringing it up again for at least a month. I'm going to be quiet.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 02:52 PM
LRT

Wisdom from the ages (thanks Sandi smile

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what
you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

Better late than never. :-/
Posted By: labug Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 03:11 PM
Originally Posted By: AT
Probably, she didn't hear anything I said. Her filter on my words is so twisted, it is nearly impossible to communicate.
That's why is probably better to not talk.

Actions speak louder than words. Every time you push her, she will push back harder.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/17/12 11:52 PM
"We are entering a more overtly antagonistic period now"

Indeed you are!

"I just wanted to plant the idea, if at all possible, that my deepest desire is to give her space and give our relationship the best chance of improving."

Shall I tell you how she feels about it? Mind you, I don't have the elegant writing skills that you do, but I know a little about the heart of a WAW.

"Maybe something did catch, and while she is away at her cousin's wedding, she can think about it."

I doubt very much that you planted anything more than extreme contempt.

"I don't plan on bringing it up again for at least a month. I'm going to be quiet."

Impossible!
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/18/12 03:21 AM
Sandi, do you think I would have been better off saying, "You leave me no options. Because of your choice I must X, Y, and Z" and leave out the idea that I don't want things to go this way?

Should I not be living at home now? Should I not be fighting for custody of my kids?

Should I have just taken these actions without saying anything? Moving home was going to elicit extreme contempt no matter what. I'm just not sure what I should have done differently or how.

Quote:
"I don't plan on bringing it up again for at least a month. I'm going to be quiet."

Impossible!


That's exactly what W thinks. She thinks I can't leave her alone. Now I can. I won't bring it up for at least 4 weeks. And maybe not then either.

This idea of whether I try to win custody of my kids or let my W walk all over me in the hope that I can win back her heart has split me in two, paralyzed me, and driven me crazy.

Right now, she's probably with OM down in FLA, crying her heart out. I know she brought the bracelets he bought her down with her. But I'm not asking and I'm not texting. I know she's let him make decisions for her in the past and that makes me really sad - that she'd rather trust his judgement than her own, and that he is looking forward to getting back into her pants. He places very little value on marriage. bah. whatever.

I stopped by the house earlier to drop off D15. W was in her room packing for the trip crying her eyes out. D asked what was wrong. "Everything".

Agreed.


I locked the doors of the house from the inside tonight. W is out there somewhere and my kids are under my roof with me. This feels right.

I'm still all for my kids having their parents' marriage intact. I feel I can LRT at this point, and maybe we'll work something out after divorce, in a year or two or whatever. Or we'll just move on.

I have IC tomorrow. She met privately with W last week. She is very pro-marriage, so if she has any ideas on how to avoid divorce, I'll be all ears. W and I meet together with that C on Monday night.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/18/12 03:31 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
"We are entering a more overtly antagonistic period now"

Indeed you are!


Do you think that I'm doing anything unreasonable to antagonize my wife?
Posted By: labug Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/18/12 03:46 PM
Originally Posted By: AlwaysTrying

Do you think that I'm doing anything unreasonable to antagonize my wife?


Yes, you keep talking to her.

You've said everything, she's heard it.

Now it's up to her and that's the hard part.

Let it be.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/18/12 04:25 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
Yes, you keep talking to her.

You've said everything, she's heard it.

Now it's up to her and that's the hard part.

Let it be.


I hadn't really thought of that talk as antagonizing. Maybe I need to think about it differently. In any case, I am now in the right place emotionally to LRT completely with no more apologies.

I hadn't really made up my mind whether to move back. Perhaps I should have decided first, because really it was always conditional on whether she participated in any sort of improvement in the relationship, with the minimum level of participation being putting the divorce on hold and showing up to MC every once in a while to talk about what is or is not working. Maybe the talk should have been more like, "You have made your choice clear to me and have invested zero energy into improving this marriage even a little bit. I have to take care of myself and my kids. I'm moving back into the house on Tuesday. If there is some sort of change of behavior on your part, I'll consider other options."

Ha. I tried to make a joke to lighten things up about 2/3 through the call. I said, "If it were up to me to rearrange the alphabet, I and U would remain distant from each other until such a time that U felt comfortable changing that relationship." She didn't laught. 3 minutes later, she was spitting bile, calling me an a-hole, a liar (does she know that is a button for me?), distorting reality, and... I wish I could remember what she said before she hung up on me.

But now it is up to her. I've let go, and I will be OK with whatever happens. Which probably means we have the best chance ever of making progress. But I'm done making excuses and concessions for her.

I'll be nice. I'll accept whatever she has to say. I'll keep my distance. I'll give me money a crap-ton of money ( :-( ) and I will try to DB my best every day for the next year or so and wait and see what happens.

I'll have what is important to me - the best relationship with my kids that is possible and the knowledge that I did whatever I was able to do (accepting that other people would have detached sooner and done better) to save my marriage, my family, and fight for my children. I can fail at this and still be proud of myself.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/18/12 04:31 PM
What?

** I'll give my lawyer a crap-ton of money.

Also, I actually said "U and I would remain distant" so it sounded more grammatically correct but I wrote it down wrong. It bothers me that "I would put U and I together" is wrong. "I would put U and me together" is right but not funny.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/18/12 04:32 PM
I'm reading robx's thread now. Good story:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1695484&page=1
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/18/12 05:33 PM
Sunday, I would like to send a message to WAW. You all know that I need some help in knowing what *not* to say, so I would like to present a draft here. I would appreciate anyone's opinion.

Quote:
W, I know you are concerned that my moving back into the house may be confusing or disruptive to the kids, so we should probably be right upfront about it with them. I know you'd rather not upset the status quo, but the status quo is not acceptable to me. The kids are not going to be disappointed to see their dad more often. I think we should set the kids down and say, "Kids, Mommy and Daddy both love you very, very much and we always will. Dad and Mom are still having trouble getting along. We would both like to see you each every day, and we wish that we could, but Mom and Dad can't always be together. Daddy will be staying at the house for now, sleeping in the attic like I do sometimes, and Mommy will be looking for a new house to live in. When Mommy finds a new house, you both will spend some of your time here at Daddy's house, and some of your time at Mommy's house. You will get days to be here and days to be at Mommy's, but we don't know the schedule yet." Your input is appreciated.


The parts in italics are words that I have a sense that I should leave out or express differently. I'm not really sure about the rest either.

Any help?
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/18/12 05:34 PM
Oh, and after "The kids are not going to be disappointed to see their dad more often.", I meant to say, "The kids will be disappointed to see less of both of us in the future, but that is your choice, not mine."

Except I can see how that is antagonistic. But it's true!
Posted By: labug Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/18/12 06:09 PM
Up there^^^you say this: But now it is up to her. I've let go, and I will be OK with whatever happens. Which probably means we have the best chance ever of making progress. But I'm done making excuses and concessions for her.

I'll be nice. I'll accept whatever she has to say. I'll keep my distance. I'll give me money a crap-ton of money ( :-( ) and I will try to DB my best every day for the next year or so and wait and see what happens


Now you say this: Sunday, I would like to send a message to WAW.

You are all over the place, no wonder your W can't believe you.

You need to stop and think and not talk try it for a day.

And then another day

and then another day
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/18/12 06:35 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
Now you say this: Sunday, I would like to send a message to WAW.

You are all over the place, no wonder your W can't believe you.

You need to stop and think and not talk try it for a day.

And then another day

and then another day


Hey! Give me some credit. I said I'd like to send the letter Sunday so that I would have 2 days to stop and think and not talk. But we have to say something to the kids.

I hear you. I need to back off. So... can I say nothing? Can I say, "I'd like to decide what to tell the kids."? Or do I send her "This is what I'm going to tell the kids Tuesday. I'm open to comments.", or do I just say what I want to say and leave her out of it?

We are going to have a joint counseling session (MC is not the word for it at this point) Monday and I want her to have a day to think about it so we can talk about it in session so that we're on the same page Tuesday when I talk to the kids.

Being left out of decisions or things happening suddenly or my taking unilateral actions are triggers of hers.

Does being detached me not caring if I'm pushing her buttons?
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/18/12 06:49 PM
Displaying a unified front to the kids is also a big thing for her.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/19/12 01:51 AM
Have you ever watched that show on TV, I think it's called "The Big Bang"? I've never could watch it all the way through, but you remind of the main character. Don't know his name, but I can see his face and hear his voice whenever I read a post you've written. I mean no offense, really. If you were to watch it, you may see why Labug said what she did.

I do not agree that you should move back home. You made the bad choice of leaving the home, but it will only make matters more hell for your kids by returning. You know it will be war with your W but you are determined, or perhaps selfishly, going there to be Mr. Mom.

I can tell you that a WAW will not want to R with a man who does that. Now, you can say it's a non-traditional M or whatever you said about the reverse gender roles, even though it seems to me that you want to be the homemaker and mother while she wants to be the career person/breadwinner/whatever and I'm not even sure if she wants to be a parent or not, but that's not why moving back won't work.

The reason it won't work out by moving back has nothing to do with your gender reversed roles, but it has everything to do with respect. In my plain and simple words, ......she doesn't respect you. She didn't respect you before and she has less respect, if possible, for you now. If you move back home uninvited & unwanted....that disrespect is likely to turn into hate and any hope of a future MR will be gone forever.

Do I think you should fight for your kids? Sure! But why do you have to do it by moving back into that house? Why can't you find your own place and have the kids move in with you? Leave her alone in her own house. You said you couldn't afford it, but yet you're willing to pay thousands and thousands of dollars in lawyer's fee to fight her while living under her roof? Sorry, but that just isn't manly. Regardless of the gender roles, some things don't change in women and that's one of the things! She has to respect the man before she's attracted to him.

IMHO, she will not be attracted to a man who wants to act like another uninvited woman trying to be a homemaker in "her" house. How could she?

In times past, I've read other LBH's tell each other to march back into the home, but I'm just telling you how she will feel, and that it will be horrible for your children under those conditions.
Posted By: heartbrokeinsd Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/19/12 02:05 AM
sandi-
that was very well said.

at-
she is giving good advice. im learning from it as well
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/19/12 03:22 AM
Wow, sandi. That's a lot to digest.

I watch the show. I don't know if you're comparing me to Sheldon (the Asperger's Syndrome type) or Leonard (the short one), but I really don't want to be that guy.

I know it is a problem of respect and that I've done little but erode that respect since she's dropped the bomb. I cater to her every whim.

You say moving out was a mistake. Or that it was a bad choice. I did it to get her to hold off on the divorce, and I did it with an agreement that we both signed that basically says I agree to stay out of the house as long as the divorce is on hold and that I am not giving up any rights to the house or the kids in doing so.

So how is moving back in a mistake? Yes, it is selfish. I want to take care of myself. She doesn't want the house. She wants to move out, which is fine with me.

I feel at peace when I think I am going to come back here and start living for me. I feel like I have a decent chance of being someone she can respect, even if she hates me for a while.

I need to sleep on this. I don't mean to be a difficult person. My wife said I was like a brick wall and she got tired of banging her head against me.
Posted By: Truegritter Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/19/12 05:57 AM
Listen man.

I just read through a couple of weeks.

Not everything.

WTF?

Coming in late in the game I know.

But

Figure yourf@ckingself out.

Sorry to be so blunt. seems to me there is a lot of placing blame and demanding of respect on your W that belongs in the mirror.

first of all your children are at the top of the pyramid.

So what is best for them?

You to move back in and have turf war with your W?

whatever you think this looks like when you do it, it won't turn out that way for your kids.

Think.

Regardless of what your W is choosing right now.

Right now I have to assume you are the sane one since you are here.

The choices you make today effect you and your family for the rest of your and their lives.

That is not pressure it is reality.

Most people don't realize that...

I hope you do.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/19/12 01:12 PM
I'm quite anxious now. I had a day or two where I felt resolved and calm and was planning out the next chapter in my life.

Now people are criticizing my decision to move back and I don't really understand why. Why was it OK for other LBHs to go back to their homes, but not me?

I've lost hours and hours of sleep thinking about what a mistake it was to move back in the last time I did it. I have to go handle kid stuff. It felt good not caring how she feels for a while. I don't know how to think about this and come to the conclusion that you have.

I'm certainly not going to ignore the wisdom of sandi...
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/19/12 04:08 PM
"Now people are criticizing my decision to move back and I don't really understand why. Why was it OK for other LBHs to go back to their homes, but not me?"

Who ever said it was ok for other LBH to move back? There are some here on the board that would agree with moving back. I'm just not one of them. The LBS's are looking from their POV (which is opposite from the WAS), and I'm looking from your WAW's VP. The one's who agree with moving back, are seeing it like claiming what's rightfully your. I understand that concept completely, and I may have missed reading where anyone had success by doing it, but so far....I don't recall any.

Look, I've seen a lot of breakups in M's that were in my family. The first thing the WAW tries to do is get the LBH to agree to leave the house to give her space and time to think. But once he's out of the house, then she feels that she's won the first round and has more strength or power to keep him out. She had no intention of having him return, don't you get that?

I don't know the legal stand on this, but if she changed the locks and you tried to force your way in, I'm sure all she'd have to do would be call the police. Remember, that you left on your own accord and now she doesn't want you back. She doesn't give a rat's a$$ that she agreed about anything! You are dealing with a different person, now. She's not the girl you M and the sooner you stop trying to think about this with your "logical" brain and start listening to how things work & don't work, the better off you'll be.

There is no logic in the WAW. That's why you are having a difficult time. She is all about feelings. She's angry, she's lonely, she's unhappy, and she's blaming you for all her negative feelings. Is that logical? No! But, she's doing it just the same.

If she doesn't want to live in that house, then suggest that she takes what she needs and move to a temporary place until she finds something she likes. You can keep the children part or most of the time, and she can have them part of the time. But it will only work if she believes you are not trying to scr@w her over. She has to agree with that idea or she'll stay put.

The way you are trying to barge your way back into the house, will set her into an "all or nothing" battle tactic. Even if she doesn't want that house, and even if she doesn't want to be a SAHM, she'll try to crucify you in court. Even though courts are being more sympathetic toward fathers these days, I'm sure her lawyer would play up the fact that you had a history of depression and gone without a job. You may be great with the kids, but the judge will take these other things into account.

I probably shock you with my bluntness. Many have accused me of being "harsh" with LBH's. It's not my goal to try to shoot people down when they are already in pain. I've tried the patting on the back and the "just hang in there and everything will be ok" stuff. It isn't worth very much if you plan to deal with a woman who has the emotions and thought patterns of a true WAW. So, like I said.....I'm just telling you how it is from that POV.

The biggest advice I would give you right now, is get legal representation. Someone very close to me agreed to everything his W wanted (just as you have done)....including leaving the house for a few days to give her space. The next week, she filed for D. While he was still reeling from the shock of not even knowing his M was in trouble....she convinced him to go sign the D papers or he'd be served. She "agreed" to custody of the kids, but now she's moving away with the children. He's completely devastated! He trusted her word. But she doesn't care. She has changed and she's taken everything and left him out to hang. He had no legal representation. He still trusted her to be the person he had always known. Don't make the same mistake.
Posted By: heartbrokeinsd Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/19/12 04:20 PM
wow ^^^^^ ....

at-

sandi is telling you how it is from a WAW standpoint. you are very lucky to have this inside info.
Posted By: Truegritter Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/19/12 04:32 PM
Quote:
Now people are criticizing my decision to move back and I don't really understand why. Why was it OK for other LBHs to go back to their homes, but not me?


Agree with Sandi.

There are different opinions here and I think Sandi explained that difference very well.

My POV comes from placing the ones who are the true victims of this tragedy and who don't have any power to rectify that.

Your children.

That is why I described them as being the top of the pyramid.

Time for you to be honest with yourself about your mistakes.

Then make better choices.

You don't become a different man by demanding your respect.

You think you lost some of your "man rights" and reclaiming them will get that back for you?

Your W didn't take those from you. You gave them away.

The better way to get your manhood back is to start acting like one rather than looking to your W to give it back to you.

Now that you've got splinters in your forehead...

What kind of man do you desire to be?
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/19/12 06:22 PM
There is a school of thought associated with something therapists call "Mindfulness" that says there are 3 modes of thinking:

Logical Mind
Works for many things, especially at work, but when applied to life decisions can be rigid and cause you to act without empathy.

Emotional Mind
This kind of thinking might help you be in tune with what other people are feeling, but decisions will tend to be reactive, impulsive, and counter-productive.

Wise Mind
Wise mind is able to look at things from a distance, see the big picture, and take logic and emotion into account. This is where you want to be.

One of the reasons people employ mindfulness is that when you are hurt or upset, you quickly get stuck in emotional mind and you need to calm down until you get get back into your wise mind before you react to anything.

I *feel* like I'm at least using my logical mind, but I know there are emotions driving it. For instance, as tg suggested, I want to reclaim my rights - the ones I gave away. This has been a thorn in my side for some time.

I've told my wife all along that I was coming back for these things if she wasn't going to give us time. This is not a surprise. You say I gave this stuff away, but I did so under duress, making it clear where my limits are.

Divorce in process = no support for her escape fantasy

I know she needs out of the hurt place that she is in, and I'm not going to stop her. I'm having a hard time seeing what is being served by giving everything away.

I'm still thinking about this. Sandi and Truegritter, I really really appreciate you helping me to see the other side of this. I'm sorry if I appear thick-skulled or out of touch. I really am trying. And I'm not trying to argue.

I want to make the best decision.

I'll post a bit more about my reasoning in a bit.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/20/12 12:23 AM
Okay look, you do not need to post your reasoning. You don't have to convince us or explain what you're thinking and why. Not to sound rude, but unless you do it to release stress, it's not the best way of utilizing your time. We are here to support you and offer a plan of action or viewpoint that helps you to bust a divorce.

There is one thing that you could do that might shed more light on your stitch, however, and that is to describe how you and your wife are different and how the two of you are alike (at least before things started falling apart).
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: Hello, WAW. Is anyone there? - 05/21/12 04:54 PM
OK, sandi, I responded to your alike and different idea here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2247129
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