the path is the goal... - DivorceBusting.com

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oops, i guess my previous thread got locked. sorry mods, for being so lax.

i've changed the title of my thread - it's not anymore about being on the right or wrong track - it's just the road i'm on now, and i'm okay with where it goes - well, most of the time (grin)

here's the link to my previous thread
www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2236613&page=1

Glad you had a good session with your IC. Your approach seemed to spark some good conversation.

thanks ces. it helped a lot to read your post before going there

journaling:

feeling just a slight bit low tonight - had s all evening until 9 when h picked him up.
s stayed sort of detached from me for the whole evening, didn't want any physical contact and could barely get a hug out of him

i could sense really strongly that he was doing that because he finds it too painful to leave so late in the evening, and i just felt that he had decided it was better to detach himself rather than come to me, cuddle be close and then have to leave.

i let him be and instead of letting him go off to his room, as he usually does to read i suggested we go in the back yard and he could read on a blanket in the grass while i got one of the vegetable beds ready to plant. couldn't engage him at all but finally managed to talk him into coming and putting the seeds in, which was a sweet moment.

h came in and i didn't realize that he was in a bad mood - or really tired. we had the chanting on pretty loud and he sort of exploded and muted it. i was trying to talk to him about something to do with the taxes..

oh well - i wasn't focusing on him and more on just telling him something and not sensitive to the fact that he'd had a long day. he'd just had a 13 hr day. when he walked in he seemed pretty relaxed and cheerful, so i didn't read him right.

they both left in a bit of a huff it seemed. and i felt a bit sad and lonely after that.

there is sometimes so much pressure to get everything "right" , but maybe now,the only thing i really have the energy to do is just stay calm and not react much and keep being pleasant so as not to aggravate the situation any further

zig, I think you're right, I know I fare the best when Ikeep my eye on my goals, stay away from expectations and manage my reactivity.

It's good that you honored your S's emotions and gave him space. I'm guilty of many times wanting to "make it all better" and interfering with their process. He knows you are there and will listen when he needs it.

(((Z)))

thanks labug and ((( ))) to you too on this fine morning:)

we are the "fixers" aren't we, and i'm beginning to realize that that's what got me into trouble - always trying to fix things around me. now i have to figure out how to step back and allow both h and s to fix their own stuff. my trying to fix things doesn't allow them to make their own efforts and takes the focus away from what i need to focus on within myself

it's more obvious in terms of h, but when it comes to s, i have no clue - is it better to let him be - that could come across as indifference (or am i worried it will) and where's the line between giving space and knowing he needs help?

thinking a lot about what Kaffe diem wrote about the double bind stuff and seeing how i participated. it's still a blurry area how to tackle the whole thing but i'm taking it one step at a time. wondering if i do it with s too.

in my sitch there is so much contact - which i used to always be upset about - but now finally ,like pema talks about, i am reframing that and taking each moment as a "juicy" opportunity to test and challenge myself and find out more about who and what i am

since yesterday thinking a lot about what she wrote in her first book - each person is in the middle of their sacred circle and what ever enters your circle is there to teach you something....

we go see the child counselor together this morning

Hey Zig,

Not sure how similar this is but I've struggled with my D who's 10. I've felt that she has really pulled away from me over the past several months and I attribute it to her mimicing the behaviors of her mom. Not sure if that's true or not but its how I interpret it.

D10 has not been interested in talking, hugging, etc. I decided to not push the actions. If she does not want a hug, then that is her choice. However, I make it a point to tell her I love you and give a small kiss at bed-time or whenever appropriate. I take opportunities to offer engagement with her and as with my M, let go of expectations. She just has to know I'm there for her.

It seems to be working because in the past few weeks, D10 has started re-engaging with me in several ways and showing affection again on her own terms.

Hang in there. Just let your S10 know you are available. He'll come around and may even open up and talk about what he's feeling when the time is right.

Good Morning Zig!

I think for me, I try to let the kids lead the conversation. S14 doesn't really want to talk, D10 wants to talk ad nauseum, and D8 has nightmares and cries a lot. So, as things come up we try to discuss it. (H is not included in these conversations.) I talk to the kids on their level and at their time. You can tell when they start changing topics to something completely unrelated they're done talking about the situation. It takes lots of conversations to get to the meat of the issue, but that makes it easier in a way. You can adjust what you're saying from one conversation to the next to tailor it to what your son said the last time.

I hope that helps!

{{{Hugs}}}

It's so hard not to ask "Are you OK?" "Is anything bothering you?" "Want to talk?" "Are you angry?"

But that will shut them down quicker than anything.

He knows you're there.

I love the juicy!

As I was sitting talking to H on Sunday, it was exciting for me, the opportunities to be the new me, the real me. He said things and my old automatic, controlling, judgmental response would begin to surface bu then, because I am now in control of MY emotions, I could think "Not my problem."

Wow, was it freeing to let another person his their life.

Everyone has "fixer" in them. The people who come here... they have chosen to go into "fixer" mode specifically around their M...

But it does not necessarily mean that they would go out in the world and look for people who have problems and fix those problems for those people...

Do you want to solve OTHER peoples problems... or do you want to solve YOUR problems...?

Trying to "fix" your H's problems by asking him how he is... are you really trying to fix HIM... or are you really trying to fix YOUR problem by finding what is bothering him, and conforming or otherwise changing to meet his expectations?

so that YOU don't have a problem M or R, anymore...?

That can get you into a double bind faster than you can say... SQUIRREL...!

have to let some stuff out first before answering everyone's wonderful posts

just came back from our appointment together. i can't really figure out what happened in there - i think it made h very angry. i know it did - he was feeling very defensive even before we went in there - and my describing some of s's behavior's made him even more.

at one point(because he kept interrupting and saying it wasn't true) i turned to him and said could we please agree to just listen to what the other one is saying even if we don't agree?

he started and jumped right in giving the impression that we had mutually separated and after about 10 mins, i said that maybe we should back up and clarify that he had chosen to leave. C asked if it was sudden thing and i said yes it was.

absolutely no mention was made by either of us about the OW. i can't figure out if i should have brought that up or not. was i protecting him by not bringing it up - i was waiting for him to bring it up

he did acknowledge that each person likes to see things through their own perception, and that since he had chosen to leave, he questioned whether he was choosing to see that s was totally ok because he wanted to see it that way.

when it was my turn i did describe a couple of the most concerning behaviors, and there was a lot of discussion about that . i could tell that h was resistant to hearing about them - too much too soon? and now i wonder if i should have said not as much or started more gently - of course he doesn't want to hear those things- there is no way to talk about them without it being about what he is doing.

we had an odd conversation in the car - and that's when i started to see how angry he was - he hid it really well in there. and burst out with so when will we see her again , how about 2 weeks is that ok with you. i was disappointed and about to say, wouldn't every week be better, but i stayed silent for a sec, and then he said, well i should stop asking you and just say what i want to do. i replied that i would appreciate that very much if he said what he wanted. and so he said he wanted to go after 2 weeks. and i said that would be fine.

the appointment ended where it was pointed out (by the therapist) that if h showed his emotions more openly to s , s could learn by modeling that it was safe for him to do so. i had made the point earlier that i would like to work towards s being able to show his emotions equally in both houses and not switch back and forth

in the car h made a big deal about how since i was emotional that was my relationship with s and since he was not that was his and that both of us were out of balance emotionally and we related to s from that imbalance -

i'm thinking about calling him back now and sort of smoothing things out and asking him not to see the things i say as a way of hurting him, but just as the facts of the situation. that even though a lot of stuff will come up that will be painful for us both to face, we should do this for s's sake.

So... your H had worked himself up for battle before stepping onto the field...?

Do you feel that is pretty normal behaviour for him, even prior to bomb?

Also, you say this:
"at one point(because he kept interrupting and saying it wasn't true) i turned to him and said could we please agree to just listen to what the other one is saying even if we don't agree?"

Is this a pattern for the two of you?

Do you always feel that he interrupts you?

Do you always feel better after chastising him for interrupting or for not listening... even though you do not actually know if he was listening...?

And at the end of your post... you mention that you are thinking of calling him back to smooth things out...

Is that normal behaviour for you? Your pattern...?

What path is that behaviour likely to lead you down?

oh, and this...

"and burst out with so when will we see her again , how about 2 weeks is that ok with you. i was disappointed and about to say, wouldn't every week be better, but i stayed silent for a sec, and then he said, well i should stop asking you and just say what i want to do. i replied that i would appreciate that very much if he said what he wanted. and so he said he wanted to go after 2 weeks. and i said that would be fine."

Take another look at that.

Do you see how that COULD have turned out?

Do you see what went REALLY WELL there?

Could you describe your feelings right after that convo? I don't mean the frustration... but the feeling that you had... right after the frustration and anger left your body...

good KD, great questions you're asking me - i really need that

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

So... your H had worked himself up for battle before stepping onto the field...?

Do you feel that is pretty normal behaviour for him, even prior to bomb?

yes , i'm beginning to realize that it might have been - only after the bomb, and during the weeks of talking, it came out that he had this mountain of a stack of grievances against me that stretched back to when we first met - and each of them were as huge asif they had just happened - in fact i was continually amazed at the things he kept bringing up - small things that i couldn't remember had even happened - for e.g.. after a 5 day road trip that was horrific where we slept in a tent on the side of the highway every night, we reached his friends house and i didn't want to go out to the bar with them that night because i was so tired and how hurt he was (aug. 2000). i looked at him in utter amazement, and after validating , later i pointed out to him how astonished i was that he had not let go of even one little thing for 11 yrs.

Also, you say this:
"at one point(because he kept interrupting and saying it wasn't true) i turned to him and said could we please agree to just listen to what the other one is saying even if we don't agree?"

Is this a pattern for the two of you?
it was in the past that we both interrupted each other. i've stopped doing that as a 180, but he continues to do so

Do you always feel that he interrupts you?

he always interrupts, and each time we are talking and i'm trying to say something, i've politely asked him if i could finish my sentence

Do you always feel better after chastising him for interrupting or for not listening... even though you do not actually know if he was listening...?

i felt terrible saying that, and now when you point out that it was chastising, i feel even worse that i didn't recognize that i was doing that. as soon as i start saying what he may not want to hear, he immediately interrupts and says that i am wrong and don't remember anything correctly, and i guess i feel really put down

And at the end of your post... you mention that you are thinking of calling him back to smooth things out...

Is that normal behaviour for you? Your pattern...?
yes, for both of us, but guess what, i did a 180 for myself and didn't call him. let him deal with his own anger and process and figure out his own stuff and if he doesn't want to go back, i will on my own.

What path is that behaviour likely to lead you down?

i realized if i do that kaffe diem is going to point out to me how i'm keeping myself in the double bind (yes , i must be getting it - if i came to that before i read your post)

so after reading your questions, i'm starting to wonder if i was reacting to his defensiveness, by being defensive or supercilious.

i wanted so much to be gentle and loving in there - and just as i write this i realize, that that's how i felt all along in this relationship - that i wanted to be gentle and loving and his demeanor and agitated, defensive way of behaving always made the worst come out in me.

i talked to my mom for a while on the phone and i was quite emotional and couldn't figure out why - and then i realized that his accusing me of being judgmental towards his leaving really really hurt .

i have stepped outside myself to not be judgmental, to try and understand where he's at. i have spent hours (of course unknown to him) listening to his and my family judging and criticizing him and tried to explain why these things happen. i have listened to hours and hours of him ranting and raving his anger at me and not once even retaliating with my own feelings. and i guess i just felt so utterly bereft in that moment.

i don't in anyway expect any acknowledgement from him for my efforts - not at all - but i guess, stupidly i was hoping that at the least he would realize at least that much.

the other thing i realized about why i'm so upset, is that it hit me that in order for us to go in there and talk about s's issues - we both have to be enormously brave -

he is being brave enough to go in there knowing that he will hear painful things about what this is doing to his son - which i already knew, but what i didn't realize about myself was that i would have to be brave enough to say those things in front of him AND face his anger at having to hear them

i have a lot to learn still. right now, i need to ground myself again and get myself back to a good feeling place.

thanks KD keep those questions coming please, if you have the time - they help me enormously

zig

btw - what does your user name mean?

oops - i didn;t realize my responses in the box would be bolded too. hope it's not too confusing to read.

btw, how do all of you make the text a different color inside the quote box?

just saw this

yes i know how that could have turned out - that's why i stayed silent because in that moment when he said that what i heard was "i'm scared of this, i want to be brave but i need some time" that's why i waited

and as for responding - it would be great if you told me - it was a goddamn relief to hear what he wanted- 10 yrs of him NEVER, EVER saying how he wanted anything and then walking out on me because i controlled everything was SOOOOO frustrating

he did calm down right after that - or at least seemed a bit subdued - we pulled into my driveway right then so i don't know how it would have gone if we had still more time driving.

i don't know if i can put in words what went really well there - that i validated what he was really saying?

actually i wasn't frustrated and angry when he said that - i was thinking quite mildly to myself , slightly disappointed "oh that's too bad i would have liked to go every week but let him decide - it's harder for him to do this"

though when reading your question i think i realized that at that moment i was still caught up in what happened at the appointment and trying to deal with my emotions there. i was outwardly calm, but did notice that when he was going on about stuff in the car that i couldn't validate everything, and so didn't say much

right now i feel that his anger is directed at me, but it's really about other stuff - his own stuff and it's not mine to deal with - it will remain to be seen if after he processes for a few days, whether he will realize it also.

do you think that me wanting to discuss s's emotional difficulties during this time, and wanting to help s, is a direct judgment by me of h's behavior? that is what h is trying to say to me. i feel i need to draw a boundary here with h, but have to think about it for awhile to see exactly what it is.

this agitated defensiveness has come up consistently during this sitch whenever there has been any reference to s's difficulties during this time. not just towards me but also towards his parents when they've tried to let him know of their concern about s

is it better for h not to deal with it so directly? and rather i go and deal with it on my own?

sorry , my posts are too long (moan)

thanks KD
zig

thnaks ces - you are so right - and as i was gradually beginning to realize that the last few days, your words solidified this for me - and then i find myself thinking -same for h also

i'm so glad to hear that you are feeling more connected with your daughter again - in fact if it's anything like what i feel when i connect with s, then you must be in heaven

we expect so much (sigh) even while we keep telling ourselves no expectations...

((( )))
zig

thanks nemo - i wish i had your skills - i'm terribly lacking in that dept., but am starting to see what i do wrong here.

you really have the whole spectrum to deal with between the three don't you?

i wish i had gone to see this therapist months ago to help me separate and sort out my emotions from s's during this sitch

about changing the topic: well, s changes it immediately - so there's no opportunity. i guess he's been telling me for months that he simply does not want to discuss it at all , period and i'm frustrated and i have to let it go and let him come to me

thanks for your help and hope your'e doing well

zig

yes - finally after all this time i get it - i still have so much to learn and i'm so glad i'm here and getting all this help from everyone here.

i wonder if we keep asking because we are insecure and need validation from others in that moment...

thanks labug:)
zig

journaling -
i have had a really emotional afternoon and evening - can't really figured out what has triggered me off so bad.

find myself thinking it's time to give up completely. i feel that he has just been manipulating these past few days - being really nice and friendly, saying he wants to resolve our problems and then behaving as he did at the appointment.

i just called to say goodnight to s and he just gave the phone to h saying i needed to tell h how to do something. h came on the phone and acted all relaxed and friendly - as if none of what had happened earlier occurred. i didn't tell him what to do, but after h told me what s was going on about i said that since he was on the phone i would like him to call me later because i'd like to go through a few things with him

i need to tell him that it's not okay for me that he "orders" s to do or be a certain way with me. one of the biggest concerns for me with s's reaction to the separation has been s not calling us mama and dad. when i brought that up today at the counseling, h leaped on it (as he always does) - that was when i asked if we could each have a chance to say what we want. i described how it was and was in the middle of saying that recently s had started to call me mama again, when h interrupted and said it was because he told s to and that's why he is calling me mama now.

the conversation got sidetracked and i never went through what i still had to say, but now i am left with this outraged feeling about what he did. that is one of the most significant effects (s told mil and me right after the separation started in an extremely angry voice that he never ever wanted to hear the words dad or dada again and don't we dare say them) that we see in s, and as far as i can see h is trying to manipulate s into removing that so that it can seem that things are better than they are?

mil told me today that last week h was there telling her how great s was doing and she said that she didn't really think he was. h apparently reacted extremely angrily and stormed out. so this is definitely an issue that i am going to have to face here.

and now i'm wondering is he going to take what i say in counseling and then work on s to remove those behaviors so that things seem better to us all.

suddenly i am so deeply angry with him - this appointment was about s and he made it about himself and he is so selfish that i cannot get over it

i have been crying off and on all evening - i think from feeling helpless and also because i keep finding myself thinking i am so done with this man - the things i'm seeing and the messages i am getting make me see more and more that he maybe has been like this always and i was too scared to acknowledge it because i felt that i had to stay and make it work because we had a child

i feel so discouraged today - and i'm so close to telling him that i am done, done.

at the same time i feel so confused because even while i'm feeling that i'm thinking to myself what if that's the wrong move and it sends him away completely

maybe all this was defensive on his part because he is feeling so guilty.

sheesh talk about second guessing myself constantly - this sitch is making me into a nutcase

First of all (((zig))

Now let it all go. No decisions about anything need to be made right now. The sky is not falling.

You are still trying to control the outcomes of this. You don't really know what H is telling your S. And is it so bad that he encouraged S to call you Mama again? Maybe he knew the lack of that was hurtful to you.

Whatever, his R with S is his. Let that go, trying to control it will only create more resentment from H.

And is it a dealbreaker if S doesn't call you mama for awhile? Maybe that's one of the only ways he has of showing his displeasure. Let him have it.

I think your expectations are creating all this upset. Your expectations for how you H is or isn't, your expectations of what the appt would be, your expectations of what H might do now. Your expectations of your S's reactions.

Was there a part of you that wanted this appt to show H how his leaving had affected S, to blame him fro leaving S and you?

Sit with your feelings and be honest with yourself.

It's the only way to get through this.

thanks for the hug, labug - i really needed it - all evening i've been thinking i sure could do with a hug right now and now i got one:)

And is it so bad that he encouraged S to call you Mama again? Maybe he knew the lack of that was hurtful to you.

yes, that is a more loving way of looking at it. i will try to do that

you're right, my expectations of something "obviously" good happening in there were behind the disappointment. i've been aware of that all afternoon after i got back

that was all i was trying to point out in the appointment - that s is displaying his displeasure and upset by not calling us mama and dada. my point being that even though he acts "happy" all the time, he is deeply affected by this. and now in the last few days he is switching back and forth - calling me mama when he is ok with what i'm doing and calling me by my name in this stern manner when he doesn't like what i'm doing (i didn't get around to even mentioning that)

the way i see it is if he genuinely had son's emotional well-being at the fore front, he would have let me describe it, and then turned to the therapist to see what she had to say about it. instead he tried to turn the conversation into a battle about him being right and me being wrong

Was there a part of you that wanted this appt to show H how his leaving had affected S, to blame him fro leaving S and you?

i sat with this and my feelings about it for the whole of march while he was away - and admitted to myself that my hidden agenda was for him to see that s was deeply affected. i worked my feelings through it all and let it go and really got to the point where i realized that that was even more selfish of me than what he was doing. when we went in there today i was clear about it for myself - it was for our son.

even though i'm struggling with a lot of things here, it has become clear for me that i really don't have expectations about h coming back. what i do expect and maybe i have to let that go too, is that he would participate in helping s through this difficult time. actually after today i don't even expect that

you're right the sky isn't falling but i do feel a bit as if i'm being bombarded in some way.

the ironic thing is that ever since this whole thing started, all i wanted to do was be left alone. i'm still puzzled by why he is so much in my face. if he wants to leave he should just leave, why is he creating such a goddamn fuss. why can't he just make the final break, be honest and up front about it , make it clear for everyone and in every part of his life, acknowledge that of course the child will be affected, do his best to make it easy for the child and just go on his way. why do i have to be put through the wringer because of his guilt?

wow, i guess i'm feeling really resentful tonight .
sorry for venting so profusely and thanks for the support labug.

journaling
h called back - and once again - one of those bizarre conversations - i know the type, they are part of the pattern - where he acted as if nothing, absolutely nothing was wrong - why did you think i was angry, i don't know what you are talking about, the appointment was great, and then riled for a few minutes about the whole mama/dad thing and how wrong i was and we have huge differences and he's not going to sit there quiet while i don't "Paint the correct picture"

i steered the conversation towards what we could agree to disagree and just used "i" sentences as much as i could. that if we could focus on not staying stuck in the disagreeing part, but find a way to work with what we are faced with in spite of disagreeing.

i told him what IC said to me yesterday - when i asked her what does one do when two people disagree and agree to disagree how do you move forward. her answer was to find out what the other person means and their values behind what they are saying. i described that to h and said that i was trying to do that as much as i could and respect his stand on things, but i needed the same respect to be heard and i didn't need him to agree with me with things about son

i also said that i felt very vulnerable in there, having to talk about these things that were difficult for both of us, and that it needed to be clear for him that by bringing them up i was not implying that they were his fault, they were just part of the situation that we needed to help son with

he did his little nonchalant act - basically dismissing everything i said in a mildly off hand way, so i ended the conversation, saying thanks for calling back and i need to go to bed. he replied by saying we could talk more about it later and probably should. i said that was fine and got off the phone

so i don't really know where it got us. i cannot validate his feelings if he chooses not to acknowledge them - and that's just that. i see my own pattern here - 10 years of trying to validate his feelings and just hitting a stone wall, and i simply have nowhere to go but bounce back and do the best i can - which is what i always did and am still doing. so much for detachment huh -

back to the drawing board, and start working on myself again.
tomorrow IS a new day

I've gone through a lot of this myself except my boys are young adults which makes it easier, but the Mama Bear part of us never goes away. We want to protect our cubs.

I had to learn that H was not going to live according to my expectations and that my expectations of him had been at the root of my unhappiness for a long time-unmet expectations>anger>resentment>bitterness

I have a joint appt with H and S19's therapist coming up in a couple of weeks and I've had to closely examine my motives in suggesting that.

Accuray has a great post here:

resentment

Sorry if this seems disjointed, in my head it all makes sense.

thanks labug
I had to learn that H was not going to live according to my expectations and that my expectations of him had been at the root of my unhappiness for a long time-unmet expectations>anger>resentment>bitterness

oh gosh, you are so right - that is what i am doing still, in spite of thinking and feeling that i am not. and worse, that is what i did for years - expecting him to be a certain way and building up anger and resentment. it really is time to let that go - i am torturing myself by staing in that mode.

Making H responsible for the kids' problems: telling H that the kids are sad because of him, that the kids are acting out because of what he did, etc. etc. He knows. from accuracy's post to jks

i'm looking at this and asking myself, is going to therapy for s together and describing the effects on s of the separation pointing the finger at h and implying he's responsible?

thanks for pointing me to accuracy's post it helped. i feel as if i am doing all these other things well, except for this one about the kids. i will admit i am terribly confused and struggling with how i should help s and how to db with h so he still feels validated

i hope your apptmt goes well with h. are you surprised that he agreed to it, or have you two done pretty well with interacting about the kids?

zig

Hi Zig!

I think the key with children is they feel everything so very much. And all you can do is be there to pick up the pieces when they need you to. However, if you son is angry, don't try to change that, but validate, "I understand why you're angry, I get angry about this situation, too." Just like we do with our spouses. I also add with my kids that "I will be here for you no matter what," and "Mommy and Daddy love you very much." That's all you can do right now while things are not quite settled.

It will get better!

Hoping today is a better day!!

thanks nemo. your'e right about just being there, and as labug says, not being the fixer. i think i have been trying to fix things too much with s and need to sot that

if you son is angry, don't try to change that, but validate, "I understand why you're angry, I get angry about this situation, too."

not to keep pressing the point here - but the problem is that son gets crazy if i so much as imply that he is having any emotion - one is not allowed to refer to any emotion positive or negative and imply in any way that he is feeling that.

i've even had him getting mad at me because i've said ooh that must have made you feel good. it's worse when it's a negative emotion - if i try to acknowledge that he is disappointed about something, i find myself in the throes of a long crazy argument 10 yr old style.

i've learned to step back a little when it starts now, and not get pulled in. so i'm getting better at it.

i spoke to s last night and we talked about some little fun things to do this afternoon as he's with me from 3 to 6. he seemed pleased about my suggestions, so i am looking forward to spending 3 hours relaxing with him. i think just like with h, i have to have no expectations with s.

hope you're having a good day too
zig

journaling

woke up this morning and realized once again, that i am still in this very heavy pattern with h - within myself , in my mind - i've stopped showing and reacting to him but within myself it is very much present

through our whole relationship this pattern was present. when he's behaving and just being a decent human being, i have had no problems and have been pretty content. but when he gets into one of his moods, it's like i fall off the deep end - the anxiety rises, i feel manipulated, crazy making stuff happens and before i know it i'm in the hole.

so i have to figure what this is about - for myself - why do i feel so crazy when he is doing his thing - that is, creating chaos around him? which is what he does. why does everything feel so irrational and nutty?

i've said to myself, as long as i keep being reactive, i cannot be with this man, because i can't handle what he does.

Quote:

son gets crazy if i so much as imply that he is having any emotion

hmmmmm actually sounds very much like S19. I, being the touchy-feely one, have tried to draw him out. It only makes it worse.

So now I've learned am learning to leave it be. I expect him to want to talk about things because that's what I want. Not the case.

If I've mentioned this before, please ignore, but have you read How to Fix Your Marriage Without Talking About It? This one is good for dealing with any male-female interactions, including sons-mothers.

Another I would suggest is out of print but can still be found, The Solo Partner by Phil DeLuca.

thanks labug - i'll see if the library has them

I expect him to want to talk about things because that's what I want. Not the case.

that's the crux of my problem isn't it?

i just have to let things be - why can't that just enter my head.i'm pressuring them both sub-consciously aren't i, and in return suffering tremendously

thanks for guiding me through this labug, and everyone else - don't know what i would do without all of you - there is a consistent message here, whereas around me, i am getting so many conflicting opinions and advice that my head is spinning

i know, i keep reading here that i shouldn't listen to what family and friends are telling me, but it's really hard.

i've got one friend who is really down on h and gave me an earful about him coming over and letting him mow the lawn etc. then i've got mil telling me to let him come take care of his responsibilities and he needs to be told off (but she's not going to do it), my brother screaming divorce and not talking to me because i'm enabling h by not telling everyone about the A

meanwhile i'm trying to DB and probably breaking all the rules.

he sat there yesterday and told the therapist quite confidently how great we get along and even hang out together and he has even come over to my house for parties, and it made me sick to my stomach - i thought i was going to throw up.

and then i wonder - is my friend right - i let him into my life and try to be friends and what is the message that he is getting here.

is it better to let him be around and focus on having positive experiences together, like we did last weekend - or is it better to stay away , not accept his invitations and not invite him over and politely refuse his help with things around the house?

even last night on the phone he kept harping on about how it was such a good idea that we are separated and he really likes me - i thought i was going to throw up again - i can't bear to hear him talk like that

i'm majorly off track here and can't see the forest for the trees.

journaling/venting

actually what i'm freaking out about this morning isn't, as would be expected, that i'm scared we won't get back together, i'm freaking because i'm scared if we do, i'll get all messed up again in his chaos - i saw it clearly yesterday, and by the evening, i was so anxious and my spasms got worse (they can be affected by emotions) and i was like - oh my god, this man does something that i can't even begin to describe that is so crazy making -

i think when he so completely denies his feelings, i feel completely invisible because i cannot express my reaction to them and how his actions affect me - and then it's like i don't exist. i know it's his way of self-protecting because he can't handle what he's feeling. but when he's sitting there acting like he's angry and later i say please help me to understand what you are angry about, he says in this cool detached voice - i simply don't know what you are talking about, you're imagining stuff, everything is great.

that leaves me in a state of utter nuttiness, because i can see he's upset, i can see the matyr look on his face and then his complete denial makes me feel like i got everything wrong and something must be wrong with me.

so labug's advice of just letting them be is the only way to handle things

i'm writing so much here, because as i write i find myself finding and identifying what is difficult for me and then once i realize it, i feel i can do something about it.

i've calmed down - again - journaling here has helped me to see the cycle i'm in finally

h's behavior implies even slightly that there is hope (or i read it like that) = me being in a good state

h's behavior implying no hope = panic state, anger resentment, blaming and all the other ugly parts of my personality including high levels of insecurity

therefore

my only resort = back to square one for myself,
- reading DB again
- GAL'ing more (i've slacked off on that recently)
- making a list of short term goals
- new 180 - stopping thoughts of this sitch
- best labug advice: stop looking over your shoulder to see if he's following you. move towards the strong, independent woman you can be.

i haven't been that woman in the pst 24 hrs, within myself. time to focus on her again.
i'm feeling a bit ashamed of my reactions since that appointment - still working on that- my tendency to over react constantly is really holding me back from letting go and moving forward

thanks for putting up with me , everyone here -

zig

You are doing great, zig... awesome noticing on yourself...

Remember to analyze YOU and not your H. Do not get yourself stuck in analysis paralysis...

simply:

+ do, observe, adjust, do...

BTW, my board name here is a play on carpe diem, sieze the day...

So I'm kinda coffee the day... which I didn't realize at first but was pointed out and I noticed, that it is similar to the name of the coffee shop on the TV Show "Eureka", which is cafe diem... lol

Hey I got all my best lines from others on this board. I have learned so much.

When you have the time, search out Mach1 and Cat04 posts. Good stuff.

thanks kaffe for the encouragement

i'm still very shaky, but baby steps

i still have so many questions but need to calm down about that too

thanks for the tips - i'll go check them out/

techie problem - when i click on someones name, i only get to the list of posts they've made to others - how do i find their thread?

i got an hour and a half with s this afternoon - it was sweet and i just took care to be there for him. i saw him struggling a bit, but i just let it be - he was quite relaxed and so i feel good about being strong there

everyone is right here - he knows i'm here and he can come to me anytime.he'll do it when he's ready to

i guess i could say the same about h....

Hi Zig - be gentle with yourself. There will inevitably be these kinds of days, and you are human so be kind to yourself.

Also, take a True Calm (by Now foods) - that might help

thanks yankee candle - i do need to be gentle with myself- i'm trying too hard and that always lands one in a mess

thanks for looking in

zig

journaling -

NEVER SAY NO TO DIGGING OUT DANDELION ROOTS - serendipity

i'm looking for those serendipitous moments - without looking for them, and then they just come

went to school to pick up s, and he begged to stay and dig out this enormous dandelion with his friend - they had fun in gardening class today where they were digging them out so they got every last piece of the root - i saw them - some of them were well over a foot long

i said yes, even though i really wanted to get going, thinking that i wanted to garden with him at home, but he looked so relaxed and happy i said it's fine.

his friends mom, who is my dear sweet friend and only supporter of DB'ing (she should be giving advice on this board!!) and i hung out for an hour in the beautiful sunshine and talked. i finally got the biggest hug i've had in a long long time and it was good.

as i was telling her about what was going on , i found myself finding what was the trigger for me yesterday with what happened, and went one step further and found the original trigger that makes me overreact and feel so completely crazy when h does his 'cold, detached , not acknowledging what i am clearly seeing' thing .

and so one more layer of the onion peeled back and a little more clarity on myself.

it's funny how this works - every time i find something like this out about myself, not only does it release a lot of stuff, but suddenly i don't have to do it any more

i was reading about this kind of thing a while ago and it said that one's triggers are usually very weighted, and if one can find the original connection of what emotion the present situation evokes from ones past (usually some trauma) then one can realize that a lot of the present reaction is magnified because one is re-experiencing the past event consciously or sub-consciously through the present one and as soon as one can make the connection and deal with the past trauma, then the trigger is removed, and when similar things come up in the present they don't carry that past weight anymore

seems as if i have to go through some godawful panic state to get to each one of these and then i achieve another layer of calmness - starting to feel a bit psychotic here with all these ups and downs!!

but anyway - thanks to the dandelion root i got to uncover this today

h answered the phone when i called to say goodnight to s. s was still in the shower. he asked how i was and i said i was fine - and then he said, we need to continue this conversation one of these days

i asked - when would you like to do that - and found out right away that that was too aggressive - he's like a shy nervous horse right now - he immediately got a bit anxious and replied that he didn't know. so i just said gently that anytime was fine.

we talked for a couple of mins more - i felt that he wanted to talk more but was stopping himself, and so i said well get s to call me back and got off the phone

i felt myself being very gentle and kind to him - with suddenly realizing what my triggers are, i am finding myself trying to see how he gets triggered off too.

after calming down and not feeling so defensive today, i started to think that maybe i was wrong about his reactions yesterday, and that what i was seeing was not him angry at me, but simply him struggling very hard - with what he was doing, hearing about it and also struggling with what he had to do.

the therapist clearly asked him to begin modeling for s - by expressing his own emotions. that must be terribly scary for him - he doesn't have a male model to follow - both his father and gr. father are stone statues - his uncles on his mom's side are warm and loving but he is quite disdainful of them - the way he was of me whenever i was "emotional". i see now clearly that that disdain is actually great fear, because he simply did not know how to handle his own emotions he couldn't begin to handle anyone else's

so i shall try to be kind as he goes through what must be a terribly painful and scary time. and his casually asking me tonight if we should continue that conversation, one could almost see as him asking for help

how could i help him find his way in this, so that i am not doing the work but just supporting him? he told me a few weeks ago that he was terribly afraid of coming back that he felt terribly vulnerable - i thought he meant because he had an A and was scared i couldn't forgive him

but no, now i see that he feels terribly vulnerable because for the first 2 months after the separation, he cried and poured his heart out and bared his soul - and he's petrified i won't take care of it if he comes back

Hey Z, glad some "ah h" moments are happening for you. And if your son wants a challenge with the dandelions, he would LOVE my yard!

Not sure if you have read it but my new IC suggested I read "Hold Me Tight". It really gets into the emotional connection of relationships and talks about triggers that get us into negative cycles and how to get out of them.

Take care

he gets to do my yard first!!!

isn't it funny how kids will do all kinds of stuff elsewhere, but at home you can't get them to do one little thing!!

thanks for the the encouragement and tips - you doing better now? hope so

zig

Quote:

techie problem - when i click on someones name, i only get to the list of posts they've made to others - how do i find their thread?

When you have located a thread with a response from the person, then click on their name and view posts.

Hope that makes sense.

Originally Posted By: zig

Or a squirrel you're trying to feed by hand.

Quote:

so i shall try to be kind as he goes through what must be a terribly painful and scary time. and his casually asking me tonight if we should continue that conversation, one could almost see as him asking for help

how could i help him find his way in this, so that i am not doing the work but just supporting him? he told me a few weeks ago that he was terribly afraid of coming back that he felt terribly vulnerable - i thought he meant because he had an A and was scared i couldn't forgive him

but no, now i see that he feels terribly vulnerable because for the first 2 months after the separation, he cried and poured his heart out and bared his soul - and he's petrified i won't take care of it if he comes back

I know this is journalling and exploring but watch out for trying to fix him. That's his job, work on you and if he wants to work on him he will and things may fit nicely.

Most people experience fixing as control.

I think this was authored by TrueGritter:

The more you use pressure, the less they see your inner beauty and your charm.

Everybody thinks, professionals and non-professionals alike, they say to have a happy marriage or a happy relationship, you have to work at it.

But I say that it's the working that makes it not work.

When you criticize, you're working at improving your mate.

When you complain to your lover, you're working at improving them.

When you argue, you're working at improving them.

When you try to reason with them.

When you tell them how much you love them.

Both when you're reasoning and when you're telling them how much you love them, you are trying to change them. You are working at changing them. And it's that working at changing them, that is the only problem.

Stop all of that working. Allow and accept, one hundred percent, whatever your spouse thinks, feels, or does is perfectly okay.

It's perfectly okay.

just reread and the light bulb came on

Quote:

when i click on someones name, i only get to the list of posts they've made to others

About the 2 posters I mentioned, I don;t think they have their own threads. I've learned the most by reading their responses to others. That's why it takes a while to find them.

It reminds me of hunting diamonds in Arkansas. My parent took us there as kids. It's a big open field and people are out there sifting through dirt in search of a little glistening rock.

I know this is journalling and exploring but watch out for trying to fix him.

i was very conscious of that while i was writing - but i guess i still gave that impression - i DON'T want to fix him or help him fix these things - i just want to support him in it

i have more than enough to fix within myself - and i am going to focus on that only.

no suggestions if he talks about it about what he could do etc., i am only going to point to what i am experiencing as i learn about myself, if it comes up

during the appointment, i did tell the therapist how only when i saw myself in my son, and how he used anger, did i start to see how he had learned it from me and that's when i started working on myself - over 2 years ago - it took a long time for me to change my angry responses - that were almost automatic (habit) and replace them with calm, constructive responses - and it took even longer for my son to recognize that i had changed - he was so used to me responding impatiently that even when i didn't he assumed i was.

i know h was listening intently.

more and more i am realizing how this really works - placing the positive changes in myself so that they are real, is the only thing i need to focus on - the rest will follow - but it takes a lot of time

today i am focusing on "reach for the better feeling thought"

thanks labug for the tips and what truegritter wrote - that really helps

i could use some advice on the following:

i don't want to argue, i don't want to "reason" but how does one deal with the conversation when one just wants to say what they think, not expecting the other one to even agree, but the other one keeps arguing about it. this scenario is coming up constantly now, and after months of not arguing, i find myself getting pulled into it.

h is insisting over-loudly and repeatedly that s is not affected and i am making too much of it. when he tries to draw me in, should i just stay quiet? it's not that i want to "win" this argument - i just want to able to help s work his way through this so he is in as a good a place as he can be emotionally

one of the patterns that h has always had is that he will admit and agree with me (which he has done on this issue, weeks ago) but then he goes on to sort of play devil's advocate and takes the opposite stand in this really stubborn way.

in the past it would drive me up the wall and i would always lose it - now i've 180ed that and am calm, but still finding it difficult to figure out how to respond in a healthy constructive manner

during our talks after the separation, he said that he did that because he didn't know how he really felt about whatever the issue was.( what's the real message i'm getting here???)

what was frustrating for me was that it was mostly unimportant stuff, but he would drive it into the ground and make the situation really unpleasant until i really and truly was upset. upset because he would choose to go on about something the exact opposite of what i knew he really felt about it

thanks for any help on this
zig

Has he been able to change your mind to see the issue as he sees it?

You know his thoughts on it. Why do you keep discussing it with him?

Accept what is, he doesn't agree with your assessment, you don't agree with his and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Work on what you can work on...you.

You don't need his help to help your son. Yes, it might be better but you have no control of that.

Originally Posted By: zig

techie problem - when i click on someones name, i only get to the list of posts they've made to others - how do i find their thread?

Zig,

Click their name, select view posts. Then at the top right of the list, click the link that says "Topics Created" to see their threads.

Sadly this is the only advice I can offer you right now. Been following your story for a while now, and I'm really hoping for the best for you. Good luck.

thanks labug

soon after i posted he called and asked if he could come over to talk - i asked him to come after half and hour so that i could have time to center myself - i know there was something coming and there was

his parents have agreed to buy a house for him and he came over to tell me that. the financial strain on us has been terrible with the rent he has been paying. i kept telling myself that it's not the end of the world - that he still needs the time and space - and this way the financial strain will be off quite a bit

the very difficult thing i'm struggling with is his parent's decision - i know , out of my control - but i see it as them enabling him on this path IN SPITE OF them disapproving so much of what he is doing.

his father told him that his mom was scared that i would be upset. what she's really scared of is that she is helping me to set up my little business and knows me well enough to know, that now, i'm not going to want her help. and the stupid thing is that this comes 3 hrs before i'm going to her office where her photographer is going to take pics of my stuff and she's printing a post card for me.

and i am really struggling with this right now - i want to call her right away and say sorry, mil, i just can't take your help right now not with what you just agreed to do - knowing at the same time that i would be sabotaging my own efforts towards starting my business, and moving towards earning some money

so it's pride here and i am really struggling with that.

i need to see this as them not taking sides, but it is really hard for me to do that right now. i have listened to mil agonize and complain vociferously for 2 years about her kids, but i continuously see her enabling them

i have to go there at 3 ., and right now i don't think i can even look at her.

wow this is a real test for me - to put my emotions aside and still be okay with what there is - i can't even postpone this - because the pics have to go to the printer tomorrow

my trigger here - one of h's big grievances was that i allowed his and my parents to give us money to help us out and how it undermined his self-esteem - he made it sound like i forced him to do it.

on the other hand =maybe this will propel me to go take my own pics and get my own post card made and do this completely on my own

help!! i need a calm perspective here

there was tons more conversation - and i handled it all really well and then said i needed to get back to work. will journal about that later

labug - he brought up the name stuff and it was a calm conversation - no argument - thanks for the advice - it helped a lot

warning - this is probably a long post - and since its me that means really long - can never condense a thing, can i

oh god, what a day - i swear i would have slept through it if i had known what was going to happen. where are the f'ing dandelions to dig up when i need them

was trying to sort through my feelings first talking to my sweet friend who is SOOOO sensible, and then with my mom, and we decided that since the situation was so time sensitive, the best thing to do was to postpone the photography until i had time to sort out what i wanted to do and to calm down from my feelings.

i was in the process of calling mil, to tell her that i needed time, when my cell rang and it was s's school - he'd been injured and i thought - wow, another serendipitous moment - all i have to do is leave a message for mil that i have to go to s and i don't have to deal with explanations etc. until the height of my emotions have passed

couldn't reach h - but got to school and brought s home - talking to h on the way back. it was almost pick up time anyway and he asked if he should come get s or did i prefer to keep him. i was dying to say yes yes i want to keep him but instead said it was fine if he took s and why didn't he come straight to my place.

s started crying ( first time?) when i told him that h was coming to get him and said he just couldn't drive any further and needed to go to my place. so i said that was fine and i'd call h back. he was ok with it, but surprisingly showed up at the house about 2 mins after we got there - i had s laying on the couch checking out the injury, when h walked in

s immediately curled up and sat up and pretended that he was ok - and was looking very uneasy and i just said very gently that he didn't need to worry, dad wasn't here to whisk you off, he'd just come over to make sure you're ok and h reassured him too. he didn't want anything to do with h - and i think h could sense that really strongly and left really soon after that

then it was time to call mil back - 5 missed calls on my cell.

i started by telling her that i was just leaving a message for her that i needed time to process what happened and that then this incident with s came up exactly then.

that i was struggling with how to go forward and i needed some more time. that i wasn't judging their decision but just needed time to find out what was the best thing for me to do.

she fell apart - she was crying so hard she couldn't speak - and then eventually it came out - she didn't want to say yes - but she didn't say no and let them think she'd said yes.

sorry i'm going to all out curse right now - F'ING EXACTLY WHAT H DID FOR 10 YRS

she's been in agony for a week over this - that's what the helpless crying was last saturday she said

so for the next 40 minutes i comforted her , and helped her to see that if she kept doing what wasn't working and then being agonized in her soul, then she needed to change what she was doing. in order to be able to be true to herself (in this case she doesn't want to enable h to continue down his path - but to let him struggle on his own) she needed to get over whatever fear she had about voicing what she felt.

she just cried and cried. i asked her if she could leave the office and offered that she could come here - and just curl up in the bed next to son and giggle with him and watch cartoons.

i told her she was strong enough to get through this and she could just come and be soothed in the presence of the only person in her life who loves her unconditionally. she said she didn't think she could not cry in front of him, and i said yes she could. if i could, she could, because she was way better at it that i was and i had been learning by watching her

she said she'd call me back - but she hasn't yet.

coming up - if s says he wants to stay here, will have to deal with that with h

what a day - i'm so proud of myself - i've stayed calm - i cried a lot talking to my friend and my mom, but it was calm, just emotions releasing

thoughts on the house - it''s a very good thing for s - a home - if w are going to be split-up, then i want home for him with h, not a one-step up from camping situation like it has been.

also, a financial break for h which takes some of the stress off

as for the rest of the conversations from this morning - i hope i just forget it and move forward

i feel kind of sick to my stomach right now - calm but that nevertheless.

there's a pattern and i saw it a few months ago, and then it stopped and now it's started again

h is really nice - friendly really great and seemingly connecting - right before he pulls something on me

in the first weeks, we'd sleep together (happened 3 times) and then the next day he'd give me a little bomb - i'm going out of town to see ow, can you take care of son, i found a house to rent ,

this time, he just spent 2 really really great days with us and then dropped this little bomb.

what's making me slightly more sick this time - his mom did the same thing - was being really nice to me while behind the scenes this whole thing was going on.

when stuff like this happens, i want to run far away - but i know i can't.

i'm going to go meditate - i have to get myself out of this chaos - when will i learn that this is always how h functions, and when will i learn to just not care and be indifferent to all the crazy stuff

i made a point this evening - he didn't call back to let me know when he was getting s or to ask how he was doing, so finally i called and asked . he said he was waiting for me to call, and i just replied well, can't you make the effort sometimes - he replied that he really didn't think about it. i said fine when can u pick him up and he said right away. before i got off the phone he started saying it wasn't really a big deal was it that he hadn't called. i said it was ok, but i think i got my point across - he was uncomfortable when he got here- assuming that i was actually very angry about what he told me this morning - i made a point to be friendly and relaxed and casual.

aaargh - is this a bad development?

I'm a little disappointed... when you said they were going to be long posts... I thought you meant looooooonnggg.....

I am not going to get into any of the details of your posts, because I am not sure that the devil is in the details in this...

What your H does from this point forward is up to him. No matter where he lived, it has always been that case... and so it always will be... even if he still was living with you...

In the end, the really question is...

Does your H having a house going to affect your direction moving forward?

Will you continue to grow and become an even better woman that only a fool would leave?

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

I am not going to get into any of the details of your posts, because I am not sure that the devil is in the details in this...

[censored], KD

to read this sentence soon after i woke up - you have no idea how it hit me

i'm spinning right now - i think i see something going on here that is way beyond what i thought it was

i'm starting to get scared

mil is having in a nervous breakdown - and this morning i realized, that she chooses to have a nervous breakdown that she is hiding, rather than do the simple thing of just telling fil that she doesn't want to participate in s's choices

as i woke up this morning i realized that after the accidents, i also went into some sort of emotional shut down - rather than deal with h's way of treating me.

there has been some really screwed up stuff going on here - since the sitch started mil and i have been talking sometimes for hours everyday - i thought she was supporting me - but when i look back i think i am beginning to realize that something else was going on. i'm not sure exactly what - but it started to feel quite screwed up and so i started to pull back

history: h's grandfather on his father's side - his first wife (fill's father) committed suicide in a pretty violent way when they were young. all the year''s we were married, i felt really really strongly that i knew EXACTLY WHY she did it - i felt driven to the edge all the time. i saw in h's grandfather this same cold callous disconnected thing going on as well as in his father. h himself, did it in a more subtle way.

i used to scream at h sometimes, - i know exactly why she did this. then eventually i shut down

his grandfather went on to marry 3 more times - each wife a little more dysfunctional than the last - and the last one being my age, alcoholic and substance abuser.

suddenly yesterday - i started to realize that oh my god, i have got to get myself OUT of this situation - there is something really really mad about a father buying a house for his son while his son is doing what he is doing. and for the mother to be sobbing helplessly and falling apart, and then going home and sending me a perfectly "normal" text message saying "got to play hostess for the next few days" (her cousins just came to visit)

i think h and his father need serious help - i think there's some kind of narcissistic thing going on - i don't even know how to spell that - more than that, i think mil and i need serious help.

i've always worried about s and that family - and what he is learning from them. and i'm thinking now i need to find a way to get this influence away from him.

h's sister is having an affair with a woman who's married with a 6 yr old and even though his parents can't stand it, they are letting sis bring the woman and child for mil's parents 70th wedding anniversary

if you could see how h sits there acting all cool and so with it - but there's all this behind the scenes manipulation going on. i believe that him wanting to go to therapy is actually to make sure that we :get along" well so i won't leave and move to another place - i've hinted at it several times

i believe i may be done DB'ing - i'm not imagining all this stuff. in fact i can't even really put it into words yet - i think i'm only starting to realize what may have been going on - and i'm still screwed up from everything to really see it all

i was this really well-known artist with an impressive portfolio for just starting out. i was so driven with my work - within 3 yrs of getting back to work after s was born (took 2 yrs off) i was a complete mess, granted the accidents helped. but some of the stuff that happened was insane and i couldn't really face how nutty things were - in fact he so consistently told me it was me entirely responsible, that i really began to believe him.
interestingly his mom is this really successful businesswoman who runs a company, but i'm starting to see that in her personal life she is an ineffectual mess that she hides super well. instead she just gets cancer every 2 or 3 years

i'm always finding excuses for him - even now - and that, i am beginning to see is messed up

i'm not going to act on this yet - i need to talk to IC , i need to get the right kind of help. one of the most insidious things he has done - is tell me continuously how i can't do anything -he still says it every chance he gets

i'm not really sure where i am this morning - and how to really deal with this. but i'm just going to try and have a calm day - i get s from school at 1 pm and we're having a little potluck at our house saturday and i'm just going to focus on normalizing as much as i can

i feel like i'm starting to remember the real stuff from the first years

so if you're seeing the devil here - [censored] [censored] [censored]

I haven't even read your whole post.

Please zig, let these people do what they will do. You concentrate on you and your son. Have no contact with any of them (H only about S) until you feel ready to do so.

Read KD's post again.

Don't let these other people control you or your choices.

Zig,

I just finished reading this thread as I was asked to check in on you.

I want to read your first thread before I say much more...

So for now, I'm just going to say hi and offer hugs.

Cat

that's exactly what i want to do - labug

i've realized that ever since this sitch started, i have expected h to leave me alone - completely expected that and he has literally hounded me. i was still caught up in the web, but now i feel as if i am waking up

i am relieved that he is getting a more permanent house - deep deep down, every time there has been a hint of maybe he wants to come back, i realize now, that i actually started getting anxious, and now i am beginning to see why.

it's taken watching mil doing what she is doing for me to see the real truth of the messed up dynamics here -

after i posted i left a message at the IC's office asking if i could have an appointment today - maybe i'll get lucky and there's a cancellation

i'm not going to do anything or say anything. i do know that this weekend since cousins are in town - who s really adores, - it will come up at the last minute that we should go over and hang out there- i didn't know until yesterday that they were here, and even though usually plans are set in advance, i think mil is in such a state that she didn't even think of telling me.

i have already filled up the weekend for s and me, in an attempt to GAL and so will have to face h's reaction when i say no we won't be there - it will be a first for him - he's depending on me being FULLY co-operative in continuing all these things that make him really comfortable - how convenient for him that i have been doing it so well until now and with a smile on my face - just like his mom

thanks for your calm words labug- and yes kd's message is clear to me, as is yours - all i'm thinking about is how to just keep moving forward , completely independent of h and his family - it is at the forefront of my mind.

zig

thanks cat04 - are you guys all like looking out for me here?

i can't tell you how much i appreciate and need all of your support. i look forward to hearing from you

i know that thank you isn't enough, but thank you

zig

Originally Posted By: zig

Hi Zig,
Just wanted to say that this is EXACTLY what I've been experiencing too.

I used to think of H's moments of niceness as a sign that my changes were having some effect on our dynamic, but recently, I've come to doubt it.

I feel so played. Half crazy; not wanting to trust my own feelings any more.

The one thing H does do that gives me some hope that he might actually be looking within himself is that he apologises from time to time for what he is doing to me.
I'm probably kidding myself that this has any significance at all.

Does your H apologise?

Me too!!! I would notice H was being more open. More sharing. Actually flirting a little bit. Then BOOM! He files papers. Cycle starts again. Talking, sharing, standing closer to me. Touching my hand. BOOM! I get served. Once again...laughing, joking having good memories. BOOM! We go over divorce paperwork. I think he is softening me up for the kill. Now whenever he calls or is being nice or friendly I wonder what he is up to.

yes, he did earlier and hinted about how he had f'ed up a lot.

but lately he's just going along the lines of - see how much better off you are since i'd left - now i don't have to take care of you

he does keep referring to certain specific things that he totally resisted me on to the point of madness and keeps saying thank god you stood your ground on that - you were so right.

there are a lot of mixed messages here- and i think like you i'm feeling a bit crazy getting pulled into all of it constantly

thanks of rechecking in, NLW

take care
zig

Hey zig, it does appear you got the message in my post as bug pointed out.

I know how messed up it can be. How messed up it can feel.

The devil IS in the details... but those are NOT YOUR details...

Whether your H and his family continue to function and not implode... or explode... around their dynamic...

Well, their actions... and time... will tell... In the same way that I watch the pattern repeat itself over and over again with my parents, of which my father is a recovered alcoholic and my mother is still one... their chit can get crazy frustrating... and it keeps repeating... and one day, that pattern may stop... and it may stop because of the death of one of them...

Oh, I know messed up... from my father's family, my mother's family, my W's family...

And NO MATTER how much I've learned the dynamics and dysfunctions, the details as such... none of that helped them... it has only served me... in that I know many of the details...

The only thing I can do with that info is live my life in the way I want, regardless of THOSE details that DO NOT have to affect me...

You weren't necessarily in LRT prior to this "house" bomb... but it may be something to consider for you, as you protect yourself through this and find your ground and centre again... and figure out what you want, fix your own problems, and move forward...

independent of what is going on in your H's family life... nor whether you and your H ever reconcile...

make sense?

Zig,

Yes we all do try to look out for each other around here.

I have read through stuff and I have some thoughts, please bear with me...

I am concerned that your S has stopped calling you mom and dad. While I know people who allow their children to call them by name, personally, I don't feel it is appropriate.

Does it bother you when you S calls you by your name (which you said he does when he is upset with you)?

Personally, I would gently remind him that to him, you are Mom. And that is what he is to call you. And don't respond when he calls you something different. It is a boundary of sorts and it is a way of establishing the roles in the family of a heirarchy of sorts as well as a term of endearment.

As far as what he calls your H, unfortunately, that is between them.

Additionally, while I understand you wanting to go to counseling in order to help your S, and ideally it would be wonderful if both of his parents went, it isn't something that you can push on your H. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't go yourself.

Often when we try to get them to see what the children are going through, even though our motives might be pure, it is seen by our S as a way to manipulate them into changing their minds.

Regarding your M, do you want to reconcile it or do you simply want an amicable D?

Probably a hard question to answer right now, especially considering your recent revelations regarding your H's family.

An important one nevertheless...

Regarding him and his family...

I was overwhelmed by the way you describe the chaos and the craziness. It is a hard thing to live with but not impossible as you have been doing it for many years now.

How has that craziness affected you? Really affected you?

I can tell you that simply leaving it isn't going to make it go away. It will still be there and it will still have the opportunity to take it's toll until you gain some understanding of the dynamics and decide how you are going to react to those dynamics.

Are the relationships you have with these people really serving you or are they hurting you?

Oh I could go on and on but I think that is a good enough place to start for now...

The only thing I can do with that info is live my life in the way I want, regardless of THOSE details that DO NOT have to affect me...

yes i have realized that in my mind - and now have to in my heart too. i have to find myself again as i move forward

You weren't necessarily in LRT prior to this "house" bomb... but it may be something to consider for you, as you protect yourself through this and find your ground and centre again... and figure out what you want, fix your own problems, and move forward..

yes - as soon as i read your words- it was the right thing, i realized.

i'm not sure how to do it - do i say something to h to let him know? just yesterday we were talking about it and i said i wanted s to have good memories of us doing fun stuff together - and now today i realize i can't do that anymore.

maybe later i can put my thoughts down of what i would say to him, and you guys could help me with it?

thanks for all your support- i feel a bit broken right now - but underneath that i realize that i can do this and have no doubt about it

zig

Remember, we say here as part of DBing principles:

ACTIONS not words...

There are a few things to consider about this...

There is nothing wrong with clarifying with him that you need time to sort things out for yourself.

But in the same token, this is about you, not about him... you do not need to "protect" him by telling him WHY you become so distant from him...

Untangle yourself from that mode, because I think you protect him a lot, in many ways, and it may show up more than it is healthy for either of you.

Or... you will actually be using words as a way to manipulate him, that by saying you are distancing yourself, you are giving him advanced warning so that he will react and do something about it to pursue you... perhaps something that you might want... not a bad thing... just something to consider... ie. not his actions, but your intentions... in a passively manipulative way...

So if / as you transition into LRT, AS A WAY TO PROTECT YOURSELF and get out of the drama so that you are not reactive in your emotions (which showed up when you found out about the house)... the house is just a financially logistical thing, if you really look at it from a non-organic standpoint. It is when you put meaning to it... regardless of what ever meaning it may have for your H or his family or anyone else... this is about YOU putting meaning to it, which you may find you stop doing as you go through the LRT to detach...

Please continue to ask questions for clarity and to help guide you through this. We are always here to support you.

thanks cat04
yes it bothers me a lot - terribly. i've seen it as s mimicking h's behavior. right after he moved out h started saying my name in this really odd way - as if he was forcing himself to say it. also overnight , after referring to me as "mama" when he talked to s, he started referring to me by my name but saying it very strangely

s started to do the same - especially now when he uses my name because he is disapproving of what i'm saying - it has the same intonation as h. it's sort of chastising and rebuking at the same time.

i like what you suggested about making a boundary with s and enforcing it by not responding - i never thought of it in terms of that. i will try that out very gently. i understand that s is a child, and he is doing it because he is so confused and affected by this sitch.

Often when we try to get them to see what the children are going through, even though our motives might be pure, it is seen by our S as a way to manipulate them into changing their minds.

i realized that, and as soon as h came back from his trip i told him that, i felt i had forced him to say yes, and that in the past when i would get impatient i would force the issue, and that when i noticed i was doing that, i wanted to stop, and that if he didn't want to go, i would be ok with it because there was no point in going unless he was a willing participant.

i expected him to jump at the chance of not going, but he insisted that it would be good for us.now i am not sure what his motives are - he began by painting such a different picture than the real situation in there, that it freaked me out. he cannot even own what he is doing right now. it was surreal to sit in there and listen to him COMPLETELY leave the affair out of the picture and act as if this was a mutual separation

Regarding your M, do you want to reconcile it or do you simply want an amicable D?

i don't know what i want - all i know is that right now i am so freaked out, by realizing everything that happened that i want to get away from him as far as i can. amicable divorce to me means that i have to be this person who pretends that i'm ok with everything and acts it all day long while he gets the satisfaction of [censored] up and walking away.
i guess i am not able to forgive him right now.

I was overwhelmed by the way you describe the chaos and the craziness. It is a hard thing to live with but not impossible as you have been doing it for many years now.

How has that craziness affected you? Really affected you?

if you were overwhelmed by what i described - it was the tip of the iceberg - can you imagine how overwhelmed i was?

really affected me? i was in bad shape physically with effects of the accident, but then i developed a psychogenic movement disorder - that took me 5 years to come out of. i completely shut down, and h took on the role of being the ultimate care taker - making sure he told me everyday how f*cked and disabled i was

i've just realized this morning, what triggered off this within me - a combo of events, but the tipping straw was that right before he left yesterday the last thing he said (he brought up finances at the door and how he was taking care of things for the summer) was "you do realize that you're just not going to be able to make it on your own for a very long time, at least a couple of years, right"

that was his response after i had just told him that i had come up with some ideas to make some money this summer, and i was pretty excited about contributing.

I can tell you that simply leaving it isn't going to make it go away. It will still be there and it will still have the opportunity to take it's toll until you gain some understanding of the dynamics and decide how you are going to react to those dynamics.

i realize that i right now, i feel really trapped. s is deeply entangled with them and everyone tells me how much i will hurt him emotionally if i take him away from here.

i'm also scared that if i do try to do that, h will go for me, and use my psychological history to prove that i'm an unfit mother. it's been made very clear that h and i are to share s exactly equally -

h is a decent dad - and apparently he's making an effort to reconnect with s - at least that what it seems like.

i believe he knows what his behavior has done to me on some level, and part of his reasoning to leave is that he is not good for me, nor i for him

sadly he chooses, rather than to be good for me and stay and work it out, to take off

[b]Are the relationships you have with these people really serving you or are they hurting you?[/b]

i think they are hurting me right now -

i just had a long session with mil on the phone - all the [censored] came out - bucketfuls of it - and she acknowledged what i said about h, his father and his grandfather. she actually said at one point, that she and i had to save s. i told her how scared i was and wshe said that i needed to get away as far from her son as i could - that now she saw what he had done, and why i was so unhappy .

she asked m why i didn't get out years ago and i said i was too scared to face what i was seeing and didn't know how to.

she told me that about a week ago she saw all of this and that's when she started weeping uncontrollably - that she finally accepted that h and i weren't going to be able to get back together unless h really made the effort to change himself.

we screamed and yelled at each other until we came to this. she even said she understood if s and i never come over to them when s is with me (s and i have been there a lot - through most of this sitch h never took him there - i was the one keeping the contact consistent).

i guess i could go on and on, but there's too much

the main thing now is how to go LRT - without it affecting s - what do i tell s, what do i tell h?

i am not angry - i just know that the least amount of contact with h - even a simple phone call about s, and pickup, lands me in a mess, because the uses every opportunity to add something in there.

mil said that she thought h was really really scared right now. i am too -

thanks for stepping in here cat04 - i can't tell if i've totally lost perspective, or if i just got complete clarity

even during the conversation with mil, i kept feeling like she was turning my words around and making them sound different to what they really were. in the end i was sobbing sorry to her - and i'm wondering way happened there

Originally Posted By: zig

Originally Posted By: Cat

Regarding your M, do you want to reconcile it or do you simply want an amicable D?

i don't know what i want - all i know is that right now i am so freaked out, by realizing everything that happened that i want to get away from him as far as i can. amicable divorce to me means that i have to be this person who pretends that i'm ok with everything and acts it all day long while he gets the satisfaction of [censored] up and walking away.
i guess i am not able to forgive him right now.

Forgivness... ( one of my favorite subjects

)

Is a gift we give ourselves.

It isn't for them, it doesn't erase their actions, it doesn't absolve them of anything, it doesn't make us forget, but it SAVES us.

It is a way to release our anger and frustration, to let go of the baggage that will stay with us if we don't forgive.

Not forgiving allows us to hold onto judgement, anger, and self righteousness.

It will send us down the road to Bittersville if we are not careful.

Forgivness is a choice. It is freeing. It is also something we have to work at daily until it finally starts to come naturally.

There is no set way to learn how to forgive, it is something that is different for everyone.

For me, it was very spiritual. It was something that happened as I learned what unconditional love meant to me. I prayed daily for God to help me forgive, like He forgives, until that peaceful feeling was with me every day. Until the feelings of anger were no longer there.

While I can't force you to try to learn to find forgivness, I do encourage it. It is an important step no matter what direction you find yourself heading.

Originally Posted By: zig

if you were overwhelmed by what i described - it was the tip of the iceberg - can you imagine how overwhelmed i was?

Actually, I have a very good idea of how overwhelmed you are. I was codependent, in a family of crazy, drama seeking, alcoholic, backstabbing, codependent, abusive people (X's family).

It affected me badly. I had bouts with cancer every few years, migranes, skin eruptions, I was shut down many ways emotionally...

Sound familiar?

I wrote a story similar to yours many many years ago...

Originally Posted By: zig

Originally Posted By: Cat

I can tell you that simply leaving it isn't going to make it go away. It will still be there and it will still have the opportunity to take it's toll until you gain some understanding of the dynamics and decide how you are going to react to those dynamics.

i realize that i right now, i feel really trapped. s is deeply entangled with them and everyone tells me how much i will hurt him emotionally if i take him away from here.

I understand you feel trapped. I don't know if it is advisable or necessary for you to take your S from there. Or from them.

No matter how screwed up they may be, they are his family and it sounds like, a huge part of your lives.

Originally Posted By: Zig

Originally Posted By: Cat

Are the relationships you have with these people really serving you or are they hurting you?

i think they are hurting me right now -

If they are hurting you, then you need to find a way to minimize that. Until you are stronger and able to not be affected by the craziness...

Be careful with your MIL. She may be the one who sees things and makes sense, but she is still a part of that family and unless she too is working on strengthing herself to break the patterns of interaction within the family (I don't mean D but the overall dynamic), as you get stronger, she has the potential to become a problem for you.

My MIL was my best friend for almost 20 years. As I began to break away from the drama, to step outside of it, suddenly I was the devil in her eyes. Long story...

Originally Posted By: Zig

even during the conversation with mil, i kept feeling like she was turning my words around and making them sound different to what they really were. in the end i was sobbing sorry to her - and i'm wondering way happened there

Don't wonder, it is not a surprise to me. It goes along with the drama that exists in the family situation.

Also, you say you aren't angry, but don't be surprised if it comes. It is something that happens when we take our rose colored glasses off and see things clearly for what they are. It may be anger at the family, maybe at God, maybe at yourself, probably all of the above.

Work on being dark. There is no reason to say anything to anyone. It isn't something you are doing as a punishment, it is something that you are doing to get your own footing. Talk about financial matters and child matters.

Anything negative that gets said to you, develop thick skin. It is going to have to roll off of you like water on a ducks back.

Come here to vent your feelings, try not to show them in front of your S. For him, you need to be strong, caring, kind, confident. Be his rock. He will learn from your example.

This is not the end of the world. There is no reason to make any major decisions right now.

Keep working on your business idea. It sounds wonderful and I would love to hear a bit more about it.

Time really is your friend...

cat04 - did you reconcile your marriage or get divorced - i can't tell , and i don't know your story, or are you still in the middle of your sitch? i'm sorry you went through what you described with our X's family. how did you recover from it? what helped you the most"

your advice to me is very wise - i have spent months "forgiving" h and now when he decided on this house thing - even though i said that it didn't bother me, i realize now, that it did - terribly and i woke up this morning just so angry with what he is doing and continuing to do and feeling even more angry with his parents for enabling him to continue doing it

i have to get a handle on my own anger and forgiveness towards him

the thing i struggle with is if he wants to leave, why doesn't he just make it right for all of us and just leave - openly and civilly. i know that's a futile question, in a way - no one has the answer, but i feel so manipulated by his actions - his being nice when he feels like it, his cold callous behavior when he doesn't - the back and forth has, i realized put me in a state that is really unhealthy

i still feel the pull of him so intensively - and that's not good for me, but i simply don't know how to get out of it.

mil told me a few minutes ago, that after our talk yesterday she was going to go home and tell them that she wouldn't buy the house. but when she got home fil told her that h had been over, and told them how happy i was about him getting the house and i was great with it. mil said she was really shocked and didn't know what to do (i was db'ing and responded to h by saying that i was happy for him and especially for s, because that would be more like a home for s and make him more comfortable being there - i didn't say anything about how i felt)

then this morning when i started telling her how i never wanted him back she thought well this is good then. and after i calmed down this afternoon and realized the reason i'm kicking and screaming is because i'm so upset about this house - and about them enabling him, i just went a bit crazy - and that i did want to save this marriage, and still thought it was possible, if h could see his role in things and WANT to be a better person with me.

i need some serious therapy here to get myself straight.

i'm so tired - i can't even finish describing everything so that i feel i'm putting it down coherently - i've just spent the whole morning going on about how he did the equivalent of mentally abusing me in some way, and now i've flipped over the other other side and still want to reconcile this. am i going crazy? or do other people do this too?

how do i go dark - he keeps s's stuff at his place and makes a point to bring it over - s came over to me today after school, but when i got there, his stuff wasn't with him (medication) which means that i have to call h to get it.

can i tell h that i am not happy about the house, or the separation and to stop saying that i am - i told him yesterday again, that the separation was good for us because it woke me up and made me start working on myself. his response was - yes i realized i don't have to take care of you anymore

are there any detailed descriptions about going dark and how to do it?

my little business? well as part of therapy for my fine motor skills i was knitting a lot and really got into it about 3 yrs ago - but the repetitive movements caused more problems, so i got into machine knitting, i've been making shawls and wraps and teaching myself for the last couple of years. friends started to buy the odd one here and there, and because i can't really go back yet to what i used to do (ceramic artist) i decided to start a little business and feel these shawls.
mil - who has a lot of contacts set me up with a store downtown (owned by a friend of hers) to have a sale there at the end of this month - and is really pushing to get me started. i have got in touch with one of our friends who is a pretty good ceramic artist (old friend of h's, with whom i did some stuff before the accidents) and he has agreed that i can come work in his studio in exchange for doing work for him, as i can't afford to set up my own studio right now. so between those two things i was hoping to start getting back to where i left off the day before the accident (i was preparing my ceramic work for the top design show int he country and had to give it up)

sadly h is right - it will take a while for me to start earning steadily - and i guess i'm really mad at him, for not only putting me in this difficult position, but him needing to emphasize it to me every chance he gets.

he sees me as so helpless - even when i am not. it's as if he needs to keep that image in his head all the time.

i wish i could regain all the confidence i used to have - - sigh - i guess that's the crux of the problem here.

thanks cat
zig

ever since our conversations here about the double bind - i've stopped trying to protect him or excuse his behaviors -and since it happened just before this house thing, the anger that i was barely starting to acknowledge, erupted after the house thing

at the therapy - i was completely looking at him in a new way - when i wasn't trying to excuse what he did, any longer, i started to see how he is hiding from himself and this persona that he creates for the rest of the world.

i guess i need to decide if i'll go to therapy with him - he did say "this is going to teach us a lot about ourselves ( i think he meant himself)

ever since his trip back, he keeps saying "we " everything and i am very suspicious about that

yesterday i did point out to him that we were on different paths. he kept asking me how i felt about the house. should i have said i preferred that he move back in here ?

i told him that i didn't get to decide what he did with his life, and the details of it any longer and it was the same for him about my life - was that the wrong thing to say?

i want to tell him that i'd much prefer to see him come back and work things out - yes i know - completely against db'ing and i'm not going to do that.

but he keeps asking and i don't know why he is asking - is he trying to feel out what i want or is it just the manipulation thing so he can continue to cake-eat?

is it better to be good friends, as he wants and hang out together so there are more opportunities to have good moments together, or go completely dark

i sort of went dark after the first 2 and 1/2 months and i noticed that he was much more pained and uncomfortable. then when i relaxed a bit and allowed things to be more friendly and let him come over and do stuff at the house, he seems to have relaxed more around me

so i'm confused about what to do. i know when i show ultimate kindness, i think he feels better towards me ( i wasn't kind during our relationship) but then i feel really manipulated when he turns around and drops a little bomb. am i just freaked out right now, and nothing really bad has happened and i've just blown everythingn out of proportion because of this house thing?

i just can't see what works and what doesn't - when i think it's working, he goes and does something like this - am i seeing it all wrong and that as you say, the house is just a logistical thing.

mil told me that when he asked them he said - i just don't have a "home" for s, and i'd like to set that up for him and asked for a loan. i wish they could have had the strength to say to him well - you do have a home for s and for yourself, you just left it and keep taking s out of it every other week

cat mentions going dark and a lot of people question that when there are kids. Actually, it IS possible to go 100% dark, but you need a mediator or friend / third party to do that with kids.

There are also ways to go dark and I think LRT covers them, along with the 37 rules, that allow you to go quite "dim" but not dark. Meaning that you don't start conversations, but then you don't avoid or ignore them if they are started by your H and do not revolve around the kids. That's how I did dark with my W, I did NOT engage in conversations that did not have to do with the kids or the separation agreement...

There were some instances where I did engage, and those generally backfired into spew from my W.

It all depends on your H, but he may lash out at you through LRT or he may mirror you and you'll feel like he's really leaving, once and for all... either way, stay LRT until your emotions are balanced. That's what it's about. You pick things up on the other side... but emotional reactions during this time could likely add fuel and send your H emotionally into space.

If you understand the dynamic in your H's family, then understand that he is / was playing two roles, probably for some time or possibly for the entire time you have known him.

One face being the one he showed you... the other the face he showed his family... neither the two would meet... perhaps you saw some of that as he would say something to you regarding his family, then would behave and say something different while you were all over there...

At this time, his loyalties are more likely strong(er) towards his family... and that... will spit you out faster than you can blink... so do not interfere with that... it will otherwise quite likely burn you...

So, read up on the LRT technique. The DR book spells it out quite well. Remember this is TEMPORARY, while you work out your own emotions...

Honestly... I was LRT for probably 6 months at least... I'm still not 100% engaged or detached... but I AM much, much less reactive... approaching 10% or less...

oh, forgot to give you my thoughts on your questions... ALSO, him ASKING his parents for a loan... to set up the house...???

That is a HUGE difference than them stepping in and saying, "here. here is a house because you should be moving on and starting your own life and having a 'home' for s."

Can you see how it is different?

Don't be stuck on your H saying "we"... it could just be a language thing he's stuck on... I tried to use inclusive "we" language with my W in relation to things and a) it never caught on with her (which is fine, because it was somewhat manipulation even though my intentions WERE good), and b) I chose to stop saying we... because I think my W saw it as pursuing...

Anyhow, either way your H will likely stop using it... and when he does... you will probably notice and then post here that your H isn't saying "we" any more and how it upset you...

Just a heads up, if you will...

You could have told your H that you prefered to have him move back, but then that can be seeing as pursuing behaviour and does go against LRT and the 37 rules...

When in LRT, punitive actions and language could be seen by your H as pursuing behaviour, which goes against LRT... "How", you ask? Because it is attached to emotion, which your H will hear, and then he will presume that you still have feelings for him... and he then could come to the conclusion that you still love him and are playing some game of manipulation and control to win him back...

The WAS keeps testing the waters... as the LBS will temp check the WAS... to see if the other is still emotionally attached... the WAS spouse sees that the LBS is still there, in case they (the WAS) decides to return... being detached has to be complete and 100%, or they will know, or they will THINK that you are still available... and still pursuing them...

Boundaries may become very important, here. Would you be "friends" with someone who would treat you, the way your H is treating you? And I am not saying he IS or IS NOT treating you bad... or good... I'm asking because that is how you should be deciding whether you would be "friends" (not necessarily "good" friends) with him... Otherwise, darker is good, if it protects you from any emotional fallout...

As much as he probably wants space... he probably WILL be pained and uncomfortable if he believes you are gone from him... that is not going to suddenly mean that he's emotionally done with you... and while it scares many to do LRT because they feel the other spouse will just move on with their lives... it is visible, time and again... if the WAS wants out... they go... no question... but if they are hesitant or never push... LRT does not send them packing...

[/b]thanks so much kd for all you've written. there have been so many developments here since i last posted that my head is spinning.

about being friendly with him - this is a really difficult arena for me - all through our relationship i used withdrawal and disassociating to "punish" h. my big 180 has been to stay right there, smile and really face things instead of turning away.

i know that this has had a positive effect - h has told me several times that i have been amazing during this sitch - and he never imagined i could be that way

about the "we" thing - the reason i'm asking is because - i haven't heard him say "we " once since this sitch started, and then after his trip, he suddenly started using "we" again

no - in my heart, i can't bear the idea of being friends with him while he is "treating me this way". but my instinct tells me that that is the only way to touch his heart - he has a real thing about me not accepting him the way he is - and i really believe that when i am friendly, relaxed and at ease around him, he doesn't feel me judging him as he always felt all the years.

i will acknowledge that for myself it is very strange - i have no problem at all being at ease around him - and it feels completely okay, but afterwards, i fall apart - i haven't found out what that means for me - just the emotional effort? i don't know - because strangely enough, i don't feel as if i'm making any effort. i think it's because i feel how good the vibes are between us when he's there, and then he still walks away - and that's what makes me fall apart

please please help me with the following - mil told me the whole actual conversation finally this afternoon. part of it went like this:

mil: what if you and zig get back together, what will you do with the house?
h: well, i imagine zig would like to move in here, because this is where she's always wanted to live (it's true - almost the exact block) and then we could sell our house (that's the one i'm living in now)

i was frankly astounded at his answer - i would've expected him to say "we're not getting back together"

trust me, i am NOT getting my hopes up, at all - there is no reason to right now. but could this at least mean that it is in the realm of possibility, for him to answer like that.

i know, i know, stupid question

[b]There are also ways to go dark and I think LRT covers them, along with the 37 rules, that allow you to go quite "dim" but not dark. Meaning that you don't start conversations, but then you don't avoid or ignore them if they are started by your H and do not revolve around the kids. That's how I did dark with my W, I did NOT engage in conversations that did not have to do with the kids or the separation agreement...

i've basically done that for months now - maybe slipped a couple of times in the r talk - for a couple of sentences, but h immediately says let's not go there.

the weird thing is he's not doing the lashing out and railing thing at me anymore.

i'm hesitating about the let - because i did go as dark as i could for a few months and it didn't seem to help - except now when i right that, i realize, that that's not true - i was emotionally doing way better when i did that - now actually since i started being more friendly, is when i started doing pretty badly

on the other hand after many months of staying pretty dim, only when i went less dark did h start showing that he wanted to be more around - maybe just mirroring? i don't know. or was he just respecting my boundaries and then when i loosened them he could stride right in where he left off

i think i do need to go dark - how do i suddenly do that? or gradually? do i stop going to the therapy with him? tell him i need some space to work through my own stuff?

he's coming over in a little while to talk - i'm not going to say anything about this. not till i've worked it out in my head for myself

i sent s to mil's for dinner and the night - just can't handle being a mom right now - just need little break for this evening.i need to pul myself out of this hole i'm in and start moving on. one last thing to tell h before i do that - it's about some messed up stuff with the movement disorder that i need to own and get off my chest - i've been wanting to tell him for well over a year, but haven't been able to. this whole emotional crisis the past few days has made me realize that if i don't let him know about this, the 3 of us cannot move forward and heal.

and we very much need to do that - yesterday he said to me - i want this tension between us to be gone - what i need to tell him is very much a part of that. it's going to take a great deal of courage to tell him and i'm really nervous - but it feels really right and it helps me to take one more step forward in the right direction

i'm letting him go, i know that - and taking the time to heal for myself

i'm not worried about sending him packing with LRT - i'm focusing on sending myself packing from this sitch (weak watery, teary eyed smile)

oops - didn't realize half the post was bolded - sorry about that

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

ALSO, him ASKING his parents for a loan... to set up the house...???

That is a HUGE difference than them stepping in and saying, "here. here is a house because you should be moving on and starting your own life and having a 'home' for s."

Can you see how it is different?

yes - i see the difference now - they weren't outright enabling him, but they also weren't saying no. which mil admits openly

later this afternoon, she told me that she was going to say no about the house. i found myself saying - let go and let god - that i didn't want to manipulate the sitch in any way - i said that if he is determined, he would find another way. that it's true that their denying him this would maybe, and that's a very big maybe, make him pause and inspect what he is doing. on the other hand it may not, and he would just find another way

i don't know what she will ultimately decide - but it doesn't really matter in the big pic - him getting or not getting the house doesn't really affect the sitch -

thanks kd

Hi Zig,

Just wanted to let you know that I am SO going through similar things at the moment. I don't have much in the way of advice - but felt I should reach out to let you know that I feel what you're going through here.

My heart goes out to you.

Originally Posted By: zig

[/b]
about being friendly with him - this is a really difficult arena for me - all through our relationship i used withdrawal and disassociating to "punish" h. my big 180 has been to stay right there, smile and really face things instead of turning away.

i know that this has had a positive effect - h has told me several times that i have been amazing during this sitch - and he never imagined i could be that way

This is my sitch exactly Zig. It creates a bind (!) though doesn't it, when LRT is called for?

no - in my heart, i can't bear the idea of being friends with him while he is "treating me this way". but my instinct tells me that that is the only way to touch his heart - he has a real thing about me not accepting him the way he is - and i really believe that when i am friendly, relaxed and at ease around him, he doesn't feel me judging him as he always felt all the years.

Again, we are in the same boat - I judged almost everything he did.

i will acknowledge that for myself it is very strange - i have no problem at all being at ease around him - and it feels completely okay, but afterwards, i fall apart - i haven't found out what that means for me - just the emotional effort? i don't know - because strangely enough, i don't feel as if i'm making any effort. i think it's because i feel how good the vibes are between us when he's there, and then he still walks away - and that's what makes me fall apart

Yes, yes, Isn't this weird? Things seem so good and yet, H still walks away and is not moved an iota from his original position.

[b]There are also ways to go dark and I think LRT covers them, along with the 37 rules, that allow you to go quite "dim" but not dark. Meaning that you don't start conversations, but then you don't avoid or ignore them if they are started by your H and do not revolve around the kids. That's how I did dark with my W, I did NOT engage in conversations that did not have to do with the kids or the separation agreement...

i've basically done that for months now - maybe slipped a couple of times in the r talk - for a couple of sentences, but h immediately says let's not go there.

the weird thing is he's not doing the lashing out and railing thing at me anymore.

Yes, exactly the same for me.

on the other hand after many months of staying pretty dim, only when i went less dark did h start showing that he wanted to be more around - maybe just mirroring? i don't know. or was he just respecting my boundaries and then when i loosened them he could stride right in where he left off

Yes, again, it's so confusing knowing what to do.

Hugs to you; keep strong,
NLW

Whoops, messed up the quoting in the last post - I put some of my own comments in the quote box, sorry!

no problem - i keep doing the same

thanks for your support NLW - and for reaching out to me and giving me a chance to realize that other people are in the same mess i am. i know it sounds weird, but knowing that somehow helps.

i will go and read your thread later - right now, just can't -

but it means more than i can say that you wrote what you did.

maybe we can figure it out together. how are you doing on GAL? as bad as me? i am doing pretty well in the social area - really connecting with my friends again, but in terms of structure and working and getting myself earning again - i am still struggling a lot there

((())) to you and hope things start turning around for you real soon

zig

Hey Zig,

I hope we can figure this out together - I often feel so alone.

And guess what, my MIL recently told me there was no hope in my sitch: "He's not coming back, NLW."

I felt so bad to hear her say this.

But bleh, what does she know?

My GAL is pretty much to do with kids. This weekend I am driving them around to work and hair dressers (WOW, what an exciting life! - but SOMEONE"S gotta do it) and I will take them to a football game on Sunday.

Lots of dog walking and going to the park, and a bit of gym work thrown in. Movies and museums, as well, last week as they are on school holidays.

Always miss H when I do these things though, cause we always did everything as a family. Feels like there's a gaping hole - and there is: in my heart (SOB).

Phew, I do have a tendency to wallow at every possible opportunity!

Feels like there's a gaping hole - and there is: in my heart (SOB).

big big hug to you - you and i need to fill that hole with other things, for now.

Phew, I do have a tendency to wallow at every possible opportunity!

we are the wallowing queens, aren't we -

tonight, my mom read me this quote:

'pain is inevitable in life, suffering is a choice'

talk about give it to me straight - i really need to stop being the victim here. all my db'ing efforts have been in vain, i realize now - because i allow myself to suffer - h can feel that . i need to stop suffering and get a life!! and so do you, right?

your gal stuff with the kids sounds great - i need to make more effort in that dept. once again - i gal'd like crazy the first few months, and then slacked off -

you have a dog? what kind? i have had this incredible urge to get a dog for the last few months - i've hesitated mainly because of the vet bills - can't afford anything right now. but you know, i just might be brave and get a puppy with s this spring - heck, it would be so lovely to have company when i am on my own and i know that s would get really soothed cuddling and playing with the dog.

mixed feelings though - s has asthma, and its a wild toss, whether he will or will not react to any specific dog.

you're right about mil's. what do they know...

take care
zig

journaling

the conversation tonight with h went really well, i felt.

i read LRT a couple of times before he came over so that it was really clear to me that i was not trying to manipulate anything - i really did need to air some things that happened after the accident.

i think , even though he didn't want to show it that h was deeply affected by what i told him. it gave me a real sense of peace - to have this out and to let him know.

the odd thing is that we talked for quite a while, and at some point went back to the movement disorder and i sort of hinted a bit that there was the other side of the story (meaning his role) and at first he got a bit defensive and started on his usual thing of how he did the best he could blah blah and i can't remember exactly what i said, but then it was quiet for a bit and he looked a bit agonized and turned to me and asked "what could i have done?"

i didn't jump into it but carefully confirmed that he really wanted a real honest answer and then told him gently how my asking him to go talk to someone would have saved both of us. i even got a chance to tell him what the therapist had told me last year - how it was very possible that he had some form of ptsd because of what was happening with me. he pointed out that he just felt helpless, overwhelmed and depressed, and i told him that the therapist had told me that those were the symptoms and that they were not in response to me the person in the relationship, but were in response to the symptoms that i was dealing with

i feel this huge sense of relief - i got to say and he took it really well what was so utterly painful that i went through - and he acknowledged it - without fighting or getting nutty on me.i talked about a couple of other things to do with the sexual abuse and how it affected our relationship.

i made sure to let him know, and that was my intention, that everything i talked about was only to do with my own healing and possibly his and son's

it was a moment of healing for us, there was no doubt about it,

he said odd things all through the conversation, and it gave me the strong feeling that he was trying very hard to feel out where i'm at. in that way my having been dim all these months really showed it maybe working

he brought up the house again - really trying to find out how i felt about it. i told him some pretty neutral things and then asked him why he was asking so much. after many mins of humming and hawing he finally managed to say - "i'm really glad that we are getting along so well, and i don't want to compromise that - but also added that he thought i might see that as a move further away.

so i said is it a move further away and he said yes

so mixed messages there -

i kept moving the conversation towards positive things and we actually talked about how we view life - and it's changed for both of us and become more similar. he said that he saw us as being on the path, and that we didn't really know where it was going, and that he wanted to just let things happen in their own time.

he asked me if i saw our sitch as amusing sometimes or utterly tragic - i replied that i didn't see it as either, but that we were where we were and that things just needed to unfold in their own time (tragic? of course i see it as tragic - what the hell does he know!! and amusing - he must really be mad!!!!)

then he says - so we worked through a lot of stuff, we don't have any problems now do we - i started to laugh because i thought he was joking - he was serious!! he said sometimes i am really clear about stuff and sometimes i'm oblivious - i feel right now that i'm oblivious and i simply can't think why you are laughing

i was so close to saying - of course we have a problem - a huge one - you're openly having an affair while we are still married and you're telling me we have no problems?

but i didn't say it - i couldn't tell if it was DB'ing or not to state the f'ing obvious - so when in doubt keep quiet, right?

i have no idea if i should have said that!!

I always like to say that my momma always tolla me... if you can't say something good, then don't say anything... but my momma never tolla me that...

Say what you mean and mean what you say, but if you have something that you want to say because you feel hurt and you want to hurt your H... then don't say it. It will feel good in the moment, but then you may regret it later, or at best... it really had no lasting, intrinsic benefit...

What you did say, appears like it helped... so chalk the positive and let it lie...

If we talk pure DB, and the mods and some others will point out that us board members, and even the mods, are NOT the experts... but the DB coaches and MWD herself, are...

So when we talk DB techniques, ALWAYS refer to the DB/DR bibles... and follow them...

having said that, I believe that MWD wrote in DR that each sitch is unique and one technique may work for some and not for others AND that they are also guidelines and some things, like LRT are OK to modify to suit your needs... I could be wrong, but I believe she says that...

So, LRT as described in the book may work for you, but you may get better value out of a slight modification of it...

first though, you need a basis in which to gauge results...

do, observe, adjust, do...

If you do not see any discernible results, there are a few possibilities for that... either there really were no results... or there were results that you just can't see, yet (which is why TIME is important... consistency over time...) or... it is possible that you are looking for results in the wrong gauge...

So as you mention above that you did not think LRT or dim was working for you... when you thought about it, you came to a realization that there were results... you just were looking out the wrong window at first, looking for them...

Maybe you don't know what you want in the big picture... maybe your goals have changed... just because we choose to stand NOW... does not mean we have to... or will want to... tomorrow... or six months from now... and it's OK to change our goals and our minds...

Be more precise with your goals if that might help. Rather than saying, "I want to R with my H." You might say, "I want H and I to talk about s on a regular basis and I do not want to argue with H in a way that I feel so frustrated that I yell."

Those little goals are quite measurable. As you find a way to achieve those goals and as you achieve your small goals, you will feel better about yourself and the sitch. And those little goals are likely taking you towards your big goal, even if you had not yet been able to articulate what that big goal is.

Hope that makes sense.

And again... Do what works... stop what doesn't... do something for at least two weeks before measuring results if you see positive results, keep doing it... and if you see negative results... stop doing it... anything in between? Well, you decide whether you want to keep doing those things that may be having no effect towards your goals.

Zig,

My story is long and complex. I used DB once to reconcile my M, and once to survive it.

My X is a MLCer, which is a very different ball of wax than a straight forward WAS.

It was my choice to stop standing, I still DB, in all areas of my life. The tools that I learned here are very useful in dealing with people and myself in general.

I have also been around for a very long time. That being said, some things changed in the books, DB to DR. Going dark in DB is the LRT in DR. LRT in DB is After the LRT in DR. So some of us very oldtimers, refer to the terms a bit differently than the newer vets and it can create confusion. However, what Kaffe and I were talking about really is the same thing, just with a different name.

I liked his version of using the LRT, not engaging but participating in a conversation if you want to. Kinda going dim...which is about all you can achieve with children involved.

Anyway, the bottom line is that you have to do what works for you.

One thing I see in your posts is that you are trying to figure out why he is doing this or saying that in relation to your M.

At this point, that itself is making you crazy. We have all done it. Part of getting yourself through this is coming to a point where you don't worry so much about his reactions, you don't base what you want to do on what he may or may not be doing, whether he may or may not be coming back.

I think this business of yours is a wonderful idea. Definately something to pursue, regardless of what he thinks. Yes, it will probably take you time to really start earning, then again, you may be the next overnight success. You won't know until you try, and let's be honest, you probably knew not to expect boatloads of money right away, but you were EXCITED about it until he shot you down.

If you are excited about it, be excited, regardless of what he thinks.

I saw you minimizing it based on what he said.

That is the kind of thinking you need to eradicate.

I am excited for you. I love the idea of handmade (machine made) items that are not mass production. Get your pictures, put them on a craft selling site, in a store and see what happens.

That is a GAL activity.

And a selfesteem boosting activity.

And possibly a profitable activity.

Focus on you, what you can do to improve your life.

I am in and out most of the time anymore but I will keep checking on you.

Read other peoples threads, post to them, especially people whose sitch's resonate with you. Start making friends and building a support system of people who can understand what you are going through.

Cat

you have a dog? what kind? i have had this incredible urge to get a dog for the last few months - i've hesitated mainly because of the vet bills - can't afford anything right now. but you know, i just might be brave and get a puppy with s this spring - heck, it would be so lovely to have company when i am on my own and i know that s would get really soothed cuddling and playing with the dog.

Hey Zig,

I can recommend getting a dog.

I never believed all that stuff about the therapeutic powers of pets, but I can truly say that I think our little puppy has saved my family.

S13 has bonded with the dog so strongly and is being responsible for him in ways I never would have anticipated.
D16 is getting real joy and pleasure out of him too.

For me, puppy has also been a godsend. I'm never alone now - he's always here for me. Patting and holding him give me such calmness and strength. And even the need to get up each morning to feed him has put a much-needed routine into my days.

Plus I have to take him out for exercise. And whenever I do, people come up to talk. I have never met so many people as I have in the last 5 months that we've had the dog. I keep hoping to meet a single tall, dark and handsome at the dog park, but no luck as yet. It's gonna happen though.

I can tell you I hesitated too because of the costs involved - but compared with the cost of therapy for my kids, the dog is cheap!

Google for advice about asthma and dogs - i'm sure there will be some that wil be OK.
Ours is a whippet, and has a beautiful nature. He's worth his weight in gold!

H really loves him too - sometimes I think he comes over just to see the dog!

Wow, you had a busy day while I was at work yesterday. Looks like you got a lot of great support, I've just skimmed.

It appears to me that the convos with H leave you twisting and hurt. Would it be possible for you to tell him you need time to get on your feet (or whatever) and that it might be best to email and only about S? That gives YOU such space.

Remember, envision that woman you want to be a keep moving toward

Here's to a great weekend.

Hey Zig, just catching up. That is a lot to process for you. Does it change any of your goals? Does it make you question them? IMO, the external should not direct the internal. Or, what goes on outside of us shouldn't direct who we are on the inside. The internal drives how we respond and relate to the external. Keep focus on yourself and who you want to be and how you want to heal.

Hope you have a good weekend.

just checking in - everyone- HUGS

i am so busy GALing today that i will have to wait until later to respond

meanwhile - your support means so much to me (sniff))

i'm taking everyone's advice in spades - baby steps:)

zig

Zig you still sound like and amazing woman. Yesterday I took. Friend who is graduating from grad school to an Indian buffet. He is Indian. The place did not have butter chicken. we had other stuff that was pretty good. We had goat it was the best. We both sweated from the spices. The best part was the bread. Think he called it Nanm or something like that. Really really good stuff.

quick question_

h has asked me several times how i feel about the house, and i have replied not very honestly _giving the impression that i am ok with it. - by focusing on how it will be better for s to have more of a home and really leaving how i felt out of it completely

now i want to let him know the following:

h, i want to be honest as you have asked me several times how i feel and i have skirted the issue and maybe given you the impression that i am ok with your making another move further away.

i am not happy about this, as i would prefer to see us working things out, but if this is what you truly want, then i will respect your decision and support s as much as i can in making the adjustment.

is this DB compatible?

i know, i haven't answered everyone's posts - this weekend has been busy and maybe tonight after s is asleep i will have chance to respond

i am focusing as much as i can on myself and "moving towards a better feeling thought_ when things get hard.

hope everyone is well
zig

Quote:

h, i want to be honest as you have asked me several times how i feel and i have skirted the issue and maybe given you the impression that i am ok with your making another move further away.

i am not happy about this, as i would prefer to see us working things out, but if this is what you truly want, then i will respect your decision and support s as much as i can in making the adjustment.

thanks labug - didn't catch your message before i went and did the deed

well i said the whole thing in a phone call, yesterday - and he turned it into an argument about what he'd said and agreed to do. after i made clear that if we were to co-parent successfully, i needed to be heard too, the [censored] hit the fan and he started yelling divorce!!

i stayed calm and said that if that is what he wished, i respected his decision, even though it was not what i wished, that i would prefer to see us stay a family together, i would not help him to get a divorce, but it was his prerogative to file for one is he wished.

he tried to make it sound as if i said i was going to fight the divorce, and i said that is not what i meant, i meant that i just wasn't going to help him to get it.

he yelled a lot, things like - "i'm ending this relationship right now, this minute" (i replied that it had been clear to me that he had ended it last august). also said "i have no intention at all of trying to make this relationship work." i said i respected that .

then we got off the phone after i said that i needed to go pick son up.

about an hour later, he called back and apologized profusely - not for the divorce stuff but for the argument and what he'd said and that what i had said during the argument was perfectly true.
i told him very nicely that i really appreciated it,(it was the most heart felt sounding apology i'd ever got from him). he said he had a really hard time telling me the truth (that's what the argument was about) because he was scared of my reaction.

i replied that in the past, because i used to get so angry , i understood that he was apprehensive, but now during this separation i have given him no reason to expect that. i understood that it takes a long time for people to recognize something like that, but the issue was trust on his part - he didn't trust that i will listen and acknowledge,

so that's that- will he file, will he not ????????

who cares - frankly i wasn't that upset - it sounded like a big old tantrum, and was hard to take so seriously. and if that's the way he needs to go about saying what he really wants - well, he hasn't evolved much! on the other hand, part of me was quite relieved - some movement - and that's almost the worst and i didn't fall apart, and i'm still standing and i'm looking' good, baby - just a few little tears with my sweet friend , but even then, not so caught up - actually i didn't react so much at all - it was like, okay whatever....

funny thing about the house - he drove s round to see it - and when s described it to me, i was like, hot damn, that's just the kind of house he knows i love - in fact that's not really his taste in houses!!!!

maybe when he guts it and gets it all done up he'll invite me there to live with him and s!!!! (GRIN)

how you doing labug - the last few days have been so busy, i haven't had time to post or to read other's stuff - it's good though - i'm moving forward step by step and have to stay focused

hope you're all well
zig

Originally Posted By: zig

about an hour later, he called back and apologized profusely - not for the divorce stuff but for the argument and what he'd said and that what i had said during the argument was perfectly true.
i told him very nicely that i really appreciated it,(it was the most heart felt sounding apology i'd ever got from him). he said he had a really hard time telling me the truth (that's what the argument was about) because he was scared of my reaction.
zig

Oh Zig,
This is exactly what I get from my H after he explodes.

He says it a little more passive-aggressively though: "I'm afraid of you". It makes me look like some sort of dom violence perpetrator.

Not sure what to make of these sorts of apologies. Is it just guilt-reduction on their part and makes no difference at all to their position?

Or is it evidence that they are finally doing some work to look inward and realising that we are not the 'problem'?

Trying not to mind-read, but I would love to hear from others about their experiences of spouses' apologies (don't want to hijack, though!).

It sounds like you did really well. I would say the proof of that was your H calling you back and apologizing.

It appears that when the WAS feels they are going to be in an uncomfortable sitch, they work themselves up and basically fire warning shots across the bow... or, they just put on their gloves and come out fighting the moment that panic button blips in their head...

Now that convo is done... let it go... and move forward...

honey - hijack all you like - my thread is everyone's thread - we're all here together

i feel bad, i want to sit and write and reply to everyone - but today again is just crazy - which is very very good

hopefully after s goes to bed
hugs
zig

i totally didn't expect - i literally thought the next time i hear from him would be through a lawyer!!!

thanks - KD - it feels good to be reassured even though i'm ok.

i got the feeling it scared the [censored] out of him when he realized he said that.

i can't help feeling empathetic towards him - must be agonizing to be in that position

cheers
zig

hi KD - just catching up on my responses , sorry it took so long to get back to you - but you'll be pleased to know that i was busy GAL'ing all weekend and also since s is back with me since friday - a lot less time

thanks for your wonderful advice -i will read it over and over

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

So, LRT as described in the book may work for you, but you may get better value out of a slight modification of it...

.yes i'm thinking that now after he screamed what i know in his mind is the worst, if i pull back too much and go dark, it will be worse. i need to still stay pleasant , open and okay - i know that that is his idea of how he wants me to be - consistent, no matter what. at the same time i can firmly set my boundaries and detach and move on, but always being pleasant.

So as you mention above that you did not think LRT or dim was working for you... when you thought about it, you came to a realization that there were results... you just were looking out the wrong window at first, looking for them...

i thought until now, that the results were in terms of his reactions and behavior. can i say it's working because, i see him opening up a bit, even while he seems to be moving away (buying house = step away - his words).

so i shouldn't just see it in terms of how he is responding, but how much better it is for me?

Maybe you don't know what you want in the big picture... maybe your goals have changed... just because we choose to stand NOW... does not mean we have to... or will want to... tomorrow... or six months from now... and it's OK to change our goals and our minds...

you're right and i'm beginning to feel that myself. i still very much want to R our marriage, but i don't know if i would feel that if he's still in the same place 8 mod. from now with absolutely no positive developments between us

Be more precise with your goals if that might help. Rather than saying, "I want to R with my H." You might say, "I want H and I to talk about s on a regular basis and I do not want to argue with H in a way that I feel so frustrated that I yell."

yes i have to set these goals. i'm not really sure what are the most achievable ones maybe:
1. i want us to be able to have a conversation about what we don't agree about and be able to resolve it successfully without h yelling and screaming
2. i want to be able to figure out for myself how i want to move forward - allow him to "be around" as in helping with heavy stuff in the house etc.,or become super independent.
3. i want to focus on myself and my work and just let things be, add more structure to my days and keep moving forward

Those little goals are quite measurable. As you find a way to achieve those goals and as you achieve your small goals, you will feel better about yourself and the sitch. And those little goals are likely taking you towards your big goal, even if you had not yet been able to articulate what that big goal is.

i know the goals above - 2 of them are more about me, but right now i can't think past that - i could write i want us 3 to spend more time together but right now i don't want it. after him being so nice last weekend and then the house and D thing - i need a little space here

And again... Do what works... stop what doesn't... do something for at least two weeks before measuring results if you see positive results, keep doing it... and if you see negative results... stop doing it...
i guess i can't really tell what works - maybe it can't be seen yet - seems like he is becoming more loud and determined about this - or is this just usual - the more they doubt the more they scream?

thanks cat04 - and sorry again that it took so long to reply.
i love everything you wrote, and i am spending all my energy everyday now focusing towards that.

i think that h is an MLCer too. i don't know if i wrote that in the first posts i'd made, but it seems as if all the signs are there - even though he's just 39. either way i still have to do the same: MOVE ON

I liked his version of using the LRT, not engaging but participating in a conversation if you want to. Kinda going dim...which is about all you can achieve with children involved.

i've basically been doing that for months - recently the conversations and getting together has increased - with him initiating them completely - except for these last two. i don't question him or ask what he's doing etc. now that he's started texting, i've done a few texts, which is a relief for me, because i don't really want to talk to him on the phone all that much - felt that he always wants to further the conversation and get us in a messy place and it takes a lot of work on my part to keep it light and casual and to the point.

One thing I see in your posts is that you are trying to figure out why he is doing this or saying that in relation to your M

i know - and finally after 8 months i am plumb exhausted - i just don't care anymore right now - it's utterly futile, and i so wish i had been capable of getting to this point earlier. it is crazy making, and finally i realized that it's the same kind of crazy making that i went through in the relationship - just with different details.

mil and i talked a lot this past weekend, and i had talked w/ my mom during last week - and finally i realized that whether we get back together or not, I HAVE to STOP reacting to him when he is behaving negatively - it is my only option or i'll go down the hole again.

about my little business - i know i saw the reaction i had only after i went through it. there is something about the way he keeps telling me i'm not going to be able to do anything, that is so sad. maybe in his mind he needs to keep seeing me that way, but i don't think he understands that by having done that for the past 3 yrs, he has really hurt me and lowered my self esteem. after he said that i lost it for a day and a half, but then this time, i saw what it did - and the next time he even hints at something like that, i'm afraid i've decided to let him know what he is doing.

but i do have to grow a thick skin as KD said and not care about what he says..

Focus on you, what you can do to improve your life.

yes yes - i am really taking the first real real steps towards that. i don't feel so paralyzed by this situation anymore. and even though my mind is in the habit of turning and thinking about it, i find myself able to distract myself now, almost immediately and turn my focus towards something more positive

i would love if you checked in on me once in a while cat04 - that would mean a lot, thank you

thanks for all your advice
zig

s and i talked about getting a dog today and he seemed really happy about it - we ended the conversation by deciding that we would get a dog, and it would come to us at just the right time

i loved what you wrote about your dog - and the therapeutic effects - i can see s just wrapping himself around the dog - he offered that he would take care of the dog the whole week he was here, and i would do the week he was away

so let's see what comes to us

t appears to me that the convos with H leave you twisting and hurt. Would it be possible for you to tell him you need time to get on your feet (or whatever) and that it might be best to email and only about S? That gives YOU such spaIce.

twisting and hurt - gosh labug - i didn't even realize that's how i felt until i read what you wrote - have been trying so hard to be brave and all

this might be the perfect time - right after he yelled divorce - to just say that i need space to focus on how i am getting on with my own stuff and can we just email and text.

the only thing that holds me back a bit is that he will see it as me bing the old way - rejecting him.. but hey - talk about who is rejecting whom. time to stop worrying how he will take it

and you'll be happy to know, that each day i see that woman stronger and stronger, and FEEL being her more and more, the real letting go has definitely started and i only feel that hollow feeling for a few moments - when it comes up - instead of staying with it, i immediately thing of something positive and it helps to dissipate it a bit, then i focus on something else and afterwards realize that i didn't have to think about it

oh and we did have a great weekend - actually in terms of GAL'ing, it was one of the best. we were out all day saturday - first at s's martial arts testing where h showed up unexpectedly - wondering if that is a baby step ??
then s and i went to earth day where he taught origami and i hung out with some of the other mom's from school. then we had a potluck - which was a huge success - it was an absolutely lovely evening and right before everyone came over s, his friend and i rearranged the living room and i love it!!

it's my space now, and it feels wonderful. this house is becoming more and more mine, and that's okay - i'm starting to feel that i can be here on my own, and even though h's stuff is here and there, i don't really notice it anymore

thanks rick -yes i am starting to feel the amazing-ness of my life.. i am shifting toward being just okay where i am and not worrying too much about the future. heck, it can't possibly be much worse than this, and if i'm standing tall now, i can manage anything!!
the bread you ate is called Naan - and i love it - except i had to go gluten free and its absolutely torturous to be around indian food and all those yummy breads they have!!
if you have a chance- find a south indian restaurant and try doses and idles - they are really yummy too - my favorite - i can still eat them because they are made with rice
hope you're well
zig

thanks for your lovely words, ces and for your very good questions

i don't feel like my goals have changed - i very much think it's worth being patient, and seeing where this goes. this IS going to be a very long long process - and frankly i have no idea where we are headed, and oddly enough i am beginning to realize that it doesn't matter . i believe when i get to wherever it is, i will have worked through my hurt and anger and forgiveness, and i will be in a good place. i'm only starting to really begging to feel that now, if i am honey.

in a way it is a lot - but you know - it's always been a lot with h - and now i have to "train" myself to not mind it, it amazes me how much he holds on to - as if he is the grand victim - and i see now how much he did that during our marriage. it is definitely starting to make me wonder if that's what i continue to want in a relationship

how are you doing ces? i hope that things are going good for you and life is a bit easier?

zig

Originally Posted By: zig

i stayed calm and said that if that is what he wished, i respected his decision, even though it was not what i wished, that i would prefer to see us stay a family together, i would not help him to get a divorce, but it was his prerogative to file for one is he wished.

he tried to make it sound as if i said i was going to fight the divorce, and i said that is not what i meant, i meant that i just wasn't going to help him to get it.

he yelled a lot, things like - "i'm ending this relationship right now, this minute" (i replied that it had been clear to me that he had ended it last august). also said "i have no intention at all of trying to make this relationship work." i said i respected that .

then we got off the phone after i said that i needed to go pick son up.

zig

This is Fantastic Zig!! You stood up for yourself in an assertive and firm manner. And it sounds like a 180 as well. He definitely noticed, and I bet you've slowed down the paper filing process. You are indeed a woman only a fool would leave.

Originally Posted By: NLW

Not sure what to make of these sorts of apologies. Is it just guilt-reduction on their part and makes no difference at all to their position?

Or is it evidence that they are finally doing some work to look inward and realising that we are not the 'problem'?

Trying not to mind-read, but I would love to hear from others about their experiences of spouses' apologies (don't want to hijack, though!).

yes NLW - i find myself asking exactly the same thing. i don't ever remember him making sincere apologies - in fact, i used to get pissing mad because no matte what he did, for him to apologize was just not happening. in fact even after admitting whatever, he chose to continue a fight or argument rather than just say a quick sincere sorry and get on with life.

and now his apologies seem really thought out - he doesn't say sorry and leave it at that - he explains exactly what he is sorry about - and i find that quite mind-blowing to hear it coming from his mouth

hopefully the vets here will chime in and help us out?

maybe it doesn't mean much, maybe it's a baby step - hey in my case it feels like a giant step (grin!)

Originally Posted By: NLW

He says it a little more passive-aggressively though: "I'm afraid of you". It makes me look like some sort of dom violence perpetrator.

Not sure what to make of these sorts of apologies. Is it just guilt-reduction on their part and makes no difference at all to their position?

Or is it evidence that they are finally doing some work to look inward and realising that we are not the 'problem'?

Trying not to mind-read, but I would love to hear from others about their experiences of spouses' apologies (don't want to hijack, though!).

Interesting NLW. My H is the same way. Says he is afraid of me. I always thought he was passive-aggressive too, so thanks for highlighting that as another action to put in that category.

My H also apology in the last explosion - having to do with finances. I appreciate it since they at least take stock, but ultimately, I need to see the long term action.

hey thanks yankee candle - i do think i believe that myself!!

i will tell you, though, even though i wrote all that so calmly here - the conversations was really hard to get through - i think my voice did break at one point, afterwards i think i was a bit in shock ad was waiting to fall apart and get really overwhelmed, but i found myself stopping and saying well are you going to over the wall react or just stay calm and get on with things, i did go over to my friends and cry a bit - but not even that much!!

i am really focusing on manifesting and just letting the universe direct me and what i need

"move to a better feeling thought" - every time i have a negative or down thought about our sitch - i say that to myself and then do it - it's helping me a lot to stay in the positive vibe

hope you're well
zig

i'm only starting to really begging to feel that now, if i am honey.

wow - my new computer replaces my typing with the most bizarre substitutes - lucky i read through that again . i believe it should read:

i'm only starting to really begin to feel that now, if i am honest!!!

It appears that when the WAS feels they are going to be in an uncomfortable sitch, they work themselves up and basically fire warning shots across the bow.

so KD - one of my dilemmas during all these months is about "uncomfortable-ness" for the WAS.

is it good DB'ing to let them feel uncomfortable ? once in a while?

i have tried not to let him feel the discomfort( as in not pointing out the effects of what he is doing constantly) , seeing it in the way that if i make him uncomfortable then he continually associates a negative feeling with me.

It is good DBing to be you... and if the spouse is uncomfortable... it's not our place to "save" them...

You've written so much (catching up)... and so much great stuff... I'd ask you to re-read what you have written over the next week or two... there's a lot of great stuff that you've picked up and can keep moving forward with...

So, it's not your job to make him feel uncomfortable... although it's not your job to save him, either...

While tempering your volatile nature, don't put out that fire if it is part of who you are... and I think it is... just allow it to glow more when it needs to... and be more warm and inviting as necessary...

I think you mentioned that was a part of you when you first started with your H... I wonder if that is part of what your H was attracted to... that he would have seen it as "spunk" and a challenge...

When's the last time you think your H has made you happy? That he's actually KNOWN that you were happy because of him?

Zig,

Yes I did read that you thought maybe MLC was a part of this.

That is something that only you can decide.

Age has little to do with MLC believe it or not. I know we hear the jokes and stories about men in their 50's suddenly buying red convertibles and meeting a twenty something woman...

Throughout our lives we go through transition/adjustments at each different level of maturity we reach. Some of us handle it with no problem, some of us have a little difficulty but make it through, and some of us end up in crisis mode.

There are resources in the MLC forum if you want to read more about it.

You sound like you are beginning to find your way through this and that is wonderful.

As far as the apologies...

They will apologize and sometimes it seems sincere. Sometimes it doesn't. They are not totally oblivious in all of this. They don't intentionally want to hurt us. However, I believe that when they feel (have the impression) that we are hanging on even a little, they go into fight mode in order to push us further away. As if being cruel will drive the point home.

Anyway, I hope you have a good day.

Hey Zig, I've been following your sitch, just not posted much. Hope you're doing well. I'm still standing. Thanks for asking.

i read through yours last night but didn't post either. i'm glad to see that you were able to say certain things to your w which were weighing on you - i'm beginning to get to a similar point, where i am not so concerned about "protecting" the situation any longer

yes we are all still standing - sometimes a bit wobbly but we are upright.
it's good to feel that way

hope you're having a wonderful day, and if you're not - then just start having one

zig

zig, I agree with cat, I think you are coming to a resting place. It may not be a permanent resting place but it will do for now.

I also like KD's post, the WAS has their R with the universe, we have ours.

Separate paths.

thanks cat, for your reply

They don't intentionally want to hurt us. However, I believe that when they feel (have the impression) that we are hanging on even a little, they go into fight mode in order to push us further away

so, my saying that i preferred to see us work it out, he sees as hanging on?

should i start saying i don't? or not say anything at all

this is like a mind game of the first order!!

i actually am beginning to think/sense, that even though he is doing all of this, on some level he is actually hurt that i have practiced a bit of apathy and indifference and am NOT begging him to come back.

a catch 22 of the biggest order.

so what's the solution? don't say anything and move forward?

stick to what i said and move forward"

i'm definitely moving forward - any movement for me is better than no movement, and i'm focusing on that.

i have read quite a bit from the mlc forum and archives - and it's like reading about him - and i see what he's doing and where he's at and it's almost fascinating on some level. reading all that has helped me so much to realize what have to do, and how little this has to do with me really.

i can see how my role pushed him towards this, but after he took the conscious decision to move away, it has not been about me, any longer. i wish so much i had found this site right in the beginning- but i found it when i did, and that's good.

thank you so much for all your insight cat04 - it is precious info that i can really do with

i hope you are having a good day too - i am doing well:)
zig

I think you are coming to a resting place. It may not be a permanent resting place but it will do for now.

i do believe i am, labug - and it feels more real, in a different way. and it's true - separate paths.

the trick for me right now, is to catch myself right away when i start thinking about h or the sitch or what he said/did etc etc. and STOP IT right away and turn my focus to something else.

i'm also telling myself (when i start worrying or thinking about how i am going to deal with this or that with him), to just trust that i will know what the right thing to do or say is in the moment when it's needed.

as KD said - i need to be myself - and trust that who i am is enough. that is what he was attracted to at first, and i believe that is what is making him so conflicted now. he maybe screaming and shouting right now, but i can sense the conflict even stronger

i haven't replied to you yet KD, because sadly i don't know if i can answer your question - i showed so much that i was unhappy, that i think h has never felt that he made me happy.

now when i woke up - and realized that no mater what is going on in my life, i can still feel happiness - he sees it that i only became happy after he left.

i think he is hurt and twisted about that - that he couldn't make me happy.

on the other hand - i don't ever remember feeling that i made him happy - ever either - i think we both felt that in the beginning, but things got so messy with me getting pregnant etc.

so that question has made me feel sad - it's a very sad answer

i mean, i know that we made each other temporarily happy doing things for each other - but we were always falling back into the arguing and fighting in between - there wasn't contentment between us.

i want to talk to you some more about the double bind, and ow to help myself get out of it - now that i know it can exist i am seeing it more and more clearly

but first to work

thanks again KD

zig

So... go back to the beginning... when you think maybe you DID make each other happy... unless you think he married you because he was unhappy with you...

Perhaps he was really looking forward to a life of unhappy... what do I know... ?

Let's just wipe away all that extra stuff you said about being the "reasons" why the two of you did not stay happy... srsly...

Because you believe you KNOW better than that... that those are just reasons... because happiness comes from within...

And your man... he was probably really happy when you had that flat tire on the freeway and he had to come rescue you...

Cause guys are daft that way...

At least, he WOULD have been happy had you been all distraught, and he came along and fixed the tire and saved the day (well, for that moment, anyhow) and you jumped all up and down and said with a beaming smile, "Oh love! You are my hero!" and gave him a great smooch and a pat on the rump...

THAT would have made him happy... I am absolutely sure of it...

So... can you remember any time like that?

Again, I can say with certainty... if he made you happy... he was happy... especially if he knew the reward... at a later date... was a little sumfin sumfin...

ow, ow, ow - it hurts right now to think of all that - it's like i can't go there in my mind today - it's because i am trying to move away from it all i guess.

i've let go of him - i'm still going to db - but i've let go, i'm ok if he doesn't come back - at least right now.

as for giving him something later - [censored], KD that's where i messed up - he was always trying to make me happy in the way he knew how to and i was always bitchin' - at least that's what i think - i'm not even sure right now. all i know is that it was the same the other way around too.

i need to process this for a bit here - i don't know if i'm pulling away because the big D word got yelled, or because i finally got it - he's not coming back right now, maybe never and i HAVE to be ok this time around - i just HAVE to.

i wonder if your questions are trying to lead me towards being aware of what could make him feel good - what i could do to make him feel good? well , right now i just don't know, do i? i obviously didn't get it right before. it was all about the sex - you know that whole thing - his lack of physical intimacy, my lack of emotional connection - the classic thing plus a heavy dose of dealing with the movement disorder and how that affected his own masculinity.

i pointed that out to him the other day - in the context of pointing out that in my healing of what i'd dealt with with the abuse, i needed him to be aware that it was not acceptable to me that he used my sexual abuse as the reason for less sex (my ex did the same thing)- it had more to do with the lack of emotional connection that i felt with him.

i also told him that i didn't understand until now, that physical connection came first for a man, and that we had been in the classic catch 22 sitch with these elements going around and around.

ah [censored] - we messed up so much, that right now i can't even think about it

i'd rather talk about how i had this great afternoon with getting my postcard designed for my little sale that's happening next friday downtown, in one of the stores - and it's suddenly all real and going to happen.

i made it through another difficult patch where i came out good on the other side of it, and i am really focusing only on myself here - really redirecting my thoughts every time i think about this sitch and h.

i know something has changed in me in these last few days as i let go - s is responding in a totally different way with me - he just seems more open and relaxed. i know it's mid week and he always settles in by now - but there seems to be less resistance

a thought - it's always when we scream and shout too much about something, that it makes others think - oh this person is protesting too much - almost as if they have to convince themselves.

i've been saying that about h for a long time now - it feels like he's trying to convince himself more than he's trying to convince me

and then it finally hit me today - oh shite, i'm doing this too - i am protesting and fighting this sitch with my heart and soul - am i trying to convince myself? the relief that i could completely give up any resistance to it and just BE, and be completely okay where i am - oh the thought of that relief overpowers anything else right now.

all these months i've been wailing - i wish he would give me a break - and now, finally i get it - i'm giving myself a break and just stopping the resistance to it all. like i told him - i'm not going to help him do what he's doing - just going to be okay with it within myself.whatever happens happens

so i'll read this post of yours again in a couple of days, and see if i can answer it differently:)

thanks KD - you really know how to push the right buttons!!

hope you're well
zig

If you read back through my posts, I've written that it seems I go through those really rough patches but come out of the other side so much stronger. Just a part of the process, I guess.

So excited for your sale!

thanks labug - seems like i'm doing the same - rough patches to realizations to the next rough patch

i'm excited, and nervous about the sale - over 5 years since i was "out there" with my work.

h offered to take some postcards and put them in the faculty mailboxes up at the university - can't decide if i should take up the offer or not. saying no - he will take it as me being mad at him for what he said - saying yes will be just letting go.

i just want to let go of the whole thing - just can't stand it anymore, all the second guessing, etc

you sound better from your last post - i'm glad.

we just keep standing up and keeping on going...

zig

What's the old saying? "fall down 7times. Stand up 8 times."

you know how on a really windy day and you're walking into it... and all of a sudden, the wind just stops... and you fall... or almost fall...

yeah... that's what happens when resistance stops... we stumble... we fall... and like ces says... we get up, again...

We think don't know what we want, but we think we know what we DO NOT want... so when we finally get what we think we want... we stumble... and wonder if it really is what we want...

How am I doing? IDK... I think I finally got what I THOUGHT I wanted... and the silence is deafening...

But I did want it... now I just have to learn how to walk again, now that the wind isn't blowing... and appreciate what I have...

Be well!

Zig,

Is it possible that your lack of emotional connection with your H has more to do with the abuse and the actual act of sex than it has to do with your H?

I ask because we all have things that we think we have healed completly to find out that we really haven't. They still lay under the surface creating issues that we don't even associate to them.

You say that both your X and your H used the abuse as an excuse for less sex (if I am reading correctly) and I have to wonder if that is the case? Maybe you used it as the excuse for less sex?

In cases of abuse, while men try very hard to empathize with what a woman/child went through, they also have a hard time understanding how it is then translated to them and why it affects them. They didn't hurt you. And men have egos. Regardless of the brave front they put up, they do get effected by rejection. They do take it personally sometimes. Because sometimes what we know and what we feel are two very different things.

Originally Posted By: Kaffe

How am I doing? IDK... I think I finally got what I THOUGHT I wanted... and the silence is deafening...

But I did want it... now I just have to learn how to walk again, now that the wind isn't blowing... and appreciate what I have...

It is so much easier to define what we don't want in our lives because we can usually see it much clearer.

So getting what you thought you wanted is now making you question if you really wanted it?

While normal, very normal in fact, it is also a good reason to try to have as clear a picture as possible of what, in fact, you DO want. So that when you get there, you have something to measure it by and the adjustment is that much easier.

exactly, cat... be clear what you WANT zig...

and I think an important thing to note in my sitch is... what I GOT now... is something that I wanted 6 months ago... and I'm not sure I want it NOW...

So I think what the message I want to get to you at this moment zig, is that what you think you want NOW... may not be what you want in the future... that's all well and good and live in the now...

But what you get in the future will be an artefact of what you are working on, right now...

IOW, if you are working on getting some distance and some peace and quiet and distance from your H RIGHT NOW... you will likely get it... later... when what you want later... will be more connection with your H... whether he is still your H... or by that time your X...

So work NOW... plan NOW... be clear NOW... about what you think you might want in the future...

hope that makes sense...

KD and cat04 - are you both trying to tell me that if i want closeness with h in the future, i should not pull back and take space now, but work on the closeness now - i'm so confused by both your posts.

cat - i thought you were referring to kd's quote - now, i don't know what either of you are trying to say

will try to write more later
zig

Zig,

I will try to clarify (I was actually referring to KD's quote BTW)

When I was in the throws of everything, it was really easy to say "I don't want separation". "I don't want to be upset anymore." "I don't want this change."

It was easy to say "I want my H back."

The drawback...

My H was full of spew, angry, mean, and had a sense of humor that I didn't appreciate, listened to music that I didn't like, and generally was so completly opposite what he had been, so when I was honest with myself, I didn't want THAT H back. I didn't want THAT M back.

I was changing. And I knew things would have to be different.

I was coming to a point where I started to question what I would say IF my X wanted to come back.

So I took H, the person, out of the equation.

I began to decide what I wanted ANY future R to look like, what I wanted ANY future man to be like. Whether it was H or someone else...

I just believed that when the time came for ANY man to be a part of my life again, I would know that I was making a good decision for me, not settling for any reason.

So I decided I wanted a relationship with a man. (No real idea WHO the man was, could have been Kevin Costner for all I knew.)

I decided what I wanted that relationship to look like, what sort of treatment I would need...

I decided what qualities the man would have to have in order to be the "right" man...

And then I continued on my path, just becoming a better person, living MY life and when it was time for a man to re-enter my life, it happened and it fit my picture of what I wanted and needed. It was an easy choice to make to let him into my life.

Zig,

You aren't quite there yet...no offense...

However, you can do what Kaffe suggests and understand that what you want right NOW, what you work towards right NOW, which is some detatchment and peace for yourself, may not be what you find yourself wanting down the road. And then you begin working toward the new goal.

Right now, you work towards the goal of closeness in the future, by working on you, getting your self esteem back, getting out of the drama, so that if the time comes in the future for closeness, you are healthy and able to participate in it.

Does that make any sense?

There it is...

Yeah, I don't even know how to put it, so...

what cat said...

it makes perfect sense to me in how it works for me and my future...

It will be up to you to figure out what it means to you and how it works into YOUR future...

zig, what's up? Hope you are well.

hi labug - thanks for checking in. i'm okay - just trying to get ready for my sale this friday.
i have a lot of posts to reply and catch up with, but i think i just needed a bit of a break from all of this.

great 180 yesterday though - i mowed the lawn - which in and of itself was i suppose not such a big deal for most people, but for me was huge - physically as well as emotionally

h arrived to pick up s while i was mowing - i didn't stop but finished it off - in fact asked him to move the hose, while i finished.

i sensed that he was stunned - he's sort of been holding that over me: "your'e so helpless i really need to come over and mow your lawn" type of thing.

well, now i'm not!!

if he asks me about it later - which i think he might - i'm just going to say casually - well, you have your own house to take care off soon, so i'm just making sure i can take care of mine. - ooh yuck that didn't sound very good..

any suggestions?

how are you doing, labug? hope you're well

right now, i'm working on my "reactions" - learning to see where the triggers are and immediately deflecting them, as soon as i can. it's helping me a lot to stay in a good place.

zig

sorry i haven't replied for so long - when i read your post - i knew that i wasn't in the state of mind to really hear what you were saying - i'm not sure i am completely in it now either

sigh...

h pulled me into a conversation today and even though i have spent the whole week before this, really working on not reacting, i found myself feeling a bit crushed by the conversation

i'm reading MWD's chapter on last resort technique tonight - and then really wondering:

is it pursuing or chasing in some form, when i say to h "i respect that you don't want us to be together, even though i would prefer to see us work it out?" is that putting pressure on him and chasing him?

am i sabotaging my own efforts?

interesting pattern here: every time i do a significant 180 - we have this messed up conversation which doesn't go anywhere.

except then, this time, he's insisting that we talk - is that a baby step?

is he just checking the temp as they say?

journaling:

today he said again , after almost 3 weeks that he wanted to talk together - i pointed out that he said that already and made no move to do it, so i understood from his actions that he didn't really want to.

i sort of got into a slight 'nothing left to lose' state of mind (carefully) and said that i was very conflicted about what I wanted here - after he asked me how i saw this thing between us panning out - i said that i had no expectations either way and was taking one day at a time and working on myself.

i told him that i didn't really understand what he was trying to ask me. that i had got the message loud and clear last week about what he wanted - so what was he asking me for now. he said he didn't know

at some point he reverted to the old everything was wrong with our marriage and said that the reason it didn't work right from the beginning was because "you weren't ready for a relationship"

i guess i'd had it - and replied calmly that i was tired of being the one entirely to blame for our problems and frankly i was stunned that after all these months he still felt that way. that i too had been disappointed - not just him, and that i had also been deeply affected by what happened. he said well i know it wasn't' all your fault, i've said that, and i said no you haven't - you've sort of implied it and then gone back to pointing the finger at me. you haven't owned your part in any real way

i pointed out that even though he said that he wants to resolve the conflicts between us i had no idea what he meant because as far as i could see, he'd cancelled them all with his decisions. i also pointed out at some point that he was pulling all the strings in this sitch, by deciding what he was doing, and that to stop talking as if these were all mutual decisions that we had made together.

he did ask if we could talk together - next week after my show was finished and i had more time. i said that was fine, but that i expected him to call and ask since he is the one saying he wants to do it.

towards the end i brought up what had happened between s and me yesterday - how s used the same strategy he does and that i'm sick and tired of being treated that way. i told him that i had told s that he and his dad should sit down together and talk about why they do that with me and make me the bad guy - when my only intention is to please them and do things that make them happy - if only they asked clearly for it. how they sabotaged their own efforts at the very happiness they wanted by twisting it and putting the blame on me - that they didn't trust that i would respect what they wanted, and so instead of just asking for it, they created this messy situation where everyone landed up feeling terrible.

s pulled the same thing that h did last week. said something to me, and then the next day, insisted that he didn't and started blaming me for remembering wrong. s and i talked and i explained to him that if he wanted something then he was to say it loud and clear - and if he changed his mind, he could say i've changed my mind, not instead insist "you didn't remember it right", and keep arguing and then acting angry or being a martyr about it. at some point i out and out asked s - do you know someone else who does this same exact thing - and he replied without hesitation - his father! that's when i told him that maybe the two of them could sit and talk about why they feel the need to do this .

when i told h about this, i was thinking he would be angry, but instead i think i got through and he replied that he really really wanted to talk about this more, but he had to walk into a meeting right then (he was at work, and he called me) and could we talk about this later. i said that was fine.

he keeps saying he wants to be friends and not have any angst between us.i managed to point out to him and he agreed that the angst was on his part - and after a bit of gentle prodding, he admitted that he felt great guilt, and that even though he's brought up the divorce he doesn't want to hurt me. that even though we are not together he cares about me and it does concern him a lot that even though he wants a divorce he doesn't want to leave me high and dry like he doesn't care. i just responded that i knew he cared about me a lot and that this was of course very difficult for him, but that he should do what he truly wants to do.
later in the conversation, i pointed out to him, that more than the angst, it was his deep anger that was standing between us- and that it was there all the time and i felt it very strongly

i got the feeling that he was trying to take the divorce thing back, without saying it outright - oh hell - who knows!

sorry for the extremely long rant. i don't know if i just bunged it up fro good - or if something got through.

i can SEE the pattern - but i can't seem to get myself OUT of it. i haven't reacted as strongly as i did in the past - but strong enough that the rest of the afternoon, i was unable to focus. and i am mad at myself - why do i let him pull me into his drama? i told myself earlier this week - be careful, keep your distance - he will try to sabotage your week - just before your show - and that's just what has happened and i've let him.

does this smack completely of co-dependence ?

sorry for the long long rant - just had to get it off my chest

i know KD - i see what you're saying - and i can almost feel it, but not quite. i still want to reconcile our marriage, and even though all this crazy stuff is going on right now, my deep deep instinct is telling me to stay calm and wait a bit longer.

he screaming louder than before - almost as if he is trying to convince himself - and that's different from before , in some way that i can't quite put my finger on.

i asked him during the conversation today whether it would make him feel better if i agreed with everything he was doing. he immediately replied no!

lots of mixed messages. and in spite of his actions -and all the stuff he is saying - there is something telling me that he is just trying the very first steps of just starting to feel his way back in.

i may be way, way off base here - but i want to see where this goes - before i decide for myself . i need advice on what to say when he keeps screaming how right this is for all of us (i did tell him today, that he should speak for himself and not use s and me as justifying why he should leave) - am i being too blunt, outspoken?

i know that there are good things for me - either way this goes - of that, i am becoming surer each day. this marriage is not the be-all and end-all for me.

i'm getting my life back, and would like to share it with this man - but as cat04 pointed out - what i'm seeing in h's behavior during this sitch - yuck - i don't want that.

each day i find out more and more what i need to work on within myself, and i am focusing on that as much as i can. my reactivity - emotionally , to everything is way over the top and i really need to be much much less of that.

of course right now, i feel incredibly vulnerable, both with s and h and even find myself getting emotional if i feel the slightest rejection from s. i have to be careful about that - i am focusing on how neither of them are responsible for my happiness.

i guess the divorce conversation - or barrage - really brought a lot up in me. to have to deal with all of what's been going on, to have made enormous effort to keeping peaceful for all 3 of us in spite of everything and then to have the divorce thing yelled at me over the phone in a bout of deep anger really pained me.

respect and trust - those are definitely at the top of my list of things that i DO want.

oh well - tomorrow is another day and at least until friday and my show is over, i will NOT deal with h in anyway except to do with son.

thanks kd for all your help
zig

Hey Zig,
I've been waiting for you to come back so I could share a thread that I'm finding really helpful in dealing with the mlc stuff that my H has been displaying.

Given the parallels between our sitches, I thought you would find it useful too.

Warning - it's a very long set of posts, but it is SO worthwhile to read from start to finish - and the best thing is, Ta Da: there's a happy ending!

Anyway, have a look at AliSuddenly's story - for me it's been a sanity-saver.

It's in piecing and, as she documents in painful detail, there often seemed to be absolutely no hope along the way.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2033737&page=1

thanks NLW - that is so sweet of you - are you having what feels like insane conversations with your WAS in the same way i am?

i'll go read, now.

i've had the feeling that you guys were waiting for me to come back here - and the support i feel from all of you is heart warming.

i feel so self-involved now - and i know i have to stop being that - need togo read other's threads and be in a good place again.

i'm working on and recognizing my own issues with self-involvement right now. can't help thinking that am i being so self involved during this sitch that i can't hear h pleading with me that he has nothing to give me right now..

maybe reading this thread will help me get things in more perspective. resentment and frustration are looming their ugly heads within me now, and that's not the way to go about changing things

thanks NLW

(((( ))))
zig

Hey, not much advice to offer just wanted to touch base. Hang in there. The roller coaster does get some smooth spots too, just have to be more patient than we care to be sometimes.

Don't beat yourself up too much, we all get pulled in at times. Remember , this healing process isn't linear.

Take care and hope your show goes well. Have fun with it!

Zig,
AliSuddenly is a master at keeping resentment/ frustration out of her sitch.

She radiates unconditional love and hangs in there through thick and thin, so i think it will be worth the read for you.

I haven't even finished it myself as there are so many threads over the 16 or so months that her journey took.

There is also a fb page under her db name so you can see pics of them both.

Thinking of you, and yes, our Hs seem still to be on the same temporal path - i'm getting some signs that he's stepping back a bit from the nastiness, but still getting insane convos.

thanks NLW - i started reading and it's going to take me a while.

how are you doing on the unconditional love thing?

is that all what happened to me , today, again - just got pulled in?

when i read what you wrote, i suddenly felt reassured, that i can pull myself out again - thank you

how do you deal with that? what do you say when H asks these "feeling around" questions?

i feel as if i bunged up today - just reading the first couple of pages from AllSuddenly's thread and reading the advice she was given - i think i just broke all the rules.

good to hear from you, I'll catch up on your thread tomorrow.

the unconditional love thing is so hard for me. i want to do it, i feel it, but like you i seemed to be easily pulled in. feels like i screw it up.

hi heartbroke

i read this about unconditional love and i keep telling it to myself

"i love you and so i don't care what you think"

it means something different from what it seems to mean at first glance - basically - even if you are thinking and doing these things that are so hurtful to me, i love you anyway

i think we all go through the "i screwed up" phase over and over again on the roller coaster - until we truly let go and fully accept. start to see the pattern of how you get pulled in. i can't say with complete confidence that in spite of seeing the pattern i am able not to get pulled in, but at least i can say that now i recognize the pattern and the follow-up screwy conversation that leaves me upside down. my next step is to find a way not to get pulled in.

zig-

i really like that quote! thats how i feel when i really look inside myself. im starting to see the behaviors. now to act appropriately. i want to do the LRT with a smile. i am so not there yet. im getting better at not pursuing. i better get good quick!

thank you so much for your post. kinda needed that right now

thanks ces - i am really excited about it and am looking forward to it being a great first step for me here with starting my own little thing

you acknowledge that i got pulled in - from what i wrote - do you think i messed up my DB'ing really bad?

i think i'm getting it all wrong - i need to recoup and figure it out from scratch again. wish i could afford a DB coach - maybe i'll sell enough on friday that i can:)

take care
and thanks
zig

you are so lucky that you found this place so soon after your separation. yes, quit pursuing right this very hot minute.

a lot of us didn't find DB for months - take advantage of that and just stop now - you have to 'act as if' until it becomes more natural. you can weep and cry later on your own and come here and vent

glad the quote helped:)

zig

ps i better start taking my own advice here!!

i've been thinking a lot about the conversation with h today - i get the feeling that what he was trying to say to me was " will you get really angry and be horrible if i do file for divorce?"

wow - am i seeing my own pattern here, again and again!!

i can't understand why even though i see the pattern - him pulling me in, me falling apart - i can't seem to STOP it. it's like i get triggered off so strongly that i am helpless in the wave of it.

though i have to say - that yesterday i was very aware of slipping into that freaking out place and even though i kept telling myself - don't react - get on with your day - put this aside - it seemed as if i almost allowed myself to slip in there and sort of indulge the feelings of sadness, grief, being in limbo etc.

so that is what i am going to really focus on and work with now. it is my biggest challenge and has been throughout this relationship and this sitch. will i finally get it now? oh yes i hope so

cheers to me for seeing it just a bit more clearly everyday!!

so a strange thing happened yesterday with h. strange in the way that i recognized a pattern within myself that i was unaware of. it has to do with him being responsible for his part - how i let him off the hook, without even realizing it.

so if anyone can help me to figure out how i can rectify this, i would be really grateful.

2 weeks ago we had our first therapy session with the child counselor. h and i agreed that we would go in 2 weeks again and he would make the appointment. i didn't hear from him about this for the whole of the first week, and finally sent him a simple email "haven't heard from you about what time the appointment is, could you let me know please"

no reply. i decided that i wouldn't force the issue or ask - was in a whatever happens, happens state of mind.

yesterday (the day we had agreed to have the next apptmt - he said that well i suppose we should have been going to this appointment today - but i haven't made it yet - i tried to call 3 times and no one picked up the phone (???????)

i guess i didn't realize how "angry" i was that 1. he hadn't made the appointment and 2. hadn't acknowledged my email and 3. basically pretended nothing was happening

my reaction during the phone call was basically - well, it doesn't seem as if you want to go so there isn't much point in going is there - he did try to suggest that maybe we should go, but then let himself off the hook by adding - well it's probably better we should talk a lot together and define what we are doing before we go.

afterwards - i realized i had done several things inadvertently
1. let him off the responsibility of making sure s was okay
2. letting him make it seem as if going to this therapist is about us and not about son
3. being sullen, myself, and reacting with the attitude of well if you're not going to try, i'm not going to either

#3 is something i definitely did during the M when i got fed up. funny i haven't seen it until now

so i need help with

1. i'm considering emailing him and saying that after thinking about it, i realize that it is very important that we continue to go see C and that we should make the appointment for sooner than later

2. am i pressuring him? - yes i know the answer to that - when it comes to the kids, they are first priority

3. i have agreed to talk with him one on one, but am really wondering today whether that is a good idea - i feel he uses these conversations to keep us in a state of chaos. his evasive way of speaking makes me really nervous and i keep thinking that there is a hidden agenda. we don't really get anywhere, and because i don't want to push him, i get frustrated

i think i'm trying to figure out here whether there is any point in talking with him at all. if i say no - would i be losing the opportunity to make things better between us, or is that just wishful thinking on a large scale at this point

i'm thinking of saying - "the only issues we need to resolve are those concerning son - and we need to do that within the structure of the therapy sessions. there is really nothing else that we need to talk about as you have made your plans very clear"

thanks for the help

zig

As I'm reading through your posts, just a quick reminder that you will need to start a new thread, as the moderators will be locking this one soon...

thanks KD - i didn't notice - sheesh i GOT to stop being so longwinded. oh no - already on the third thread - or is it the 4th

see you on the next thread - i'll post my last message there also

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

I always like to say that my momma always tolla me... if you can't say something good, then don't say anything... but my momma never tolla me that...

great advice