ah, where do I begin? My husband and I started marriage counseling in January and about a month ago he told me that he doesn't need to do it anymore, he knows it isn't going to work because he doesn't love me. He says that he married me for all the wrong reasons (my good traits) and he loves me now for those ("being an amazing mother to our children") but there is just no romantic love between us.
In therapy we have learned that he has a very passive aggressive personality and has had problems a long the way that he didn't address with me ( I am messy, I take advantage of his "kindness"). So he has been withdrawing for long time. And she thinks that he has completely checked out at this point.
He complained to our mutual friend that we just don't have an emotional connection, but that is exactly the reason I wanted to start therapy in the first place! I am so blindsided that if it wasn't for our 2 small children I would say I would walk away. His father called me tonight and said that he knows he is making the biggest mistake of his life. People don't "find happiness" by walking away from their family. There is no OW that I know of, and no one else thinks there is either.
Any suggestions or words or wisdom would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
Me 36, H 36
M 10, T 13
S 4 1/2, D 2
Read some current threads. This is common language for WASs. They all say pretty much the same thing and we the LBS, all react and say much the same things.
For passive-aggressives who won't often admit to having a problem, MC could be very scary because they have to face their issues, and then work on their issues. They'd much rather balme you for the issue.
I'm not saying MC was a bad thing but it's sometimes overwhelming.
Keep reading and posting.
This is going to be tough to read. I too have a P/A spouse.
The lessons I learned in a nutshell...
1) Let him go, but make it clear you don't want a divorce, but if he wants one, he'll have to do the work. You won't help, you won't hinder.
2) Do the counseling for yourself, without expectation he'll go along for the ride. Address those things within you that contributed to he sense of alienation.
If you're like many of us here, you were the relationship fixer and with that go a whole lot of thought patterns and behaviours that are perceived negatively by our spouses and others.
3)Get yourself a life that does not include him, learn that your happiness resides within you, and his resides within him. You can't MAKE anyone happy.
Get and read Divorce Busting and Divorce Recovery. Apply the principles.
In the meantime understand it's NOT about you.
fightingforit,
From what I've read this happens pretty frequently in MC. I read that 90% of the time, one person is coming to work on the relationship, and the other person is coming to:
1) "Fix" the other person
2) Help the other person realize that the M is over
3) Get validation that the R problems are all due to the other person
Therefore, one partner is willing, one is unwilling. You can, however, work on your relationship alone. The DB books talk about this, so definitely read them!
I've been on this forum for a while, and in my experience it's pretty rare for one person to just up and walk away without an EA or a PA going on. The pattern is usually that the person here says "my spouse would NEVER do that", and then after some period of time an affair of some kind is revealed. People typically don't jump without somewhere to land.
I'm not saying this to scare you or hurt you -- the point of me telling you that is that the results you will get from "Divorcebusting" vary considerably depending on if there is an affair going on. If there is no "other person", then you truly can make progress in restoring your marriage. As long as "other person" is in the picture, all you can really do is tread water and not make things worse relationship-wise, while using the time to work on yourself.
If you follow the suggestions in DB, do it well, and are seeing no results at all, I would be suspicious that something may be going on that you're not aware of. Don't get frustrated and think the program isn't working, you just need to adjust your timescale for how long it might take.
Accuray
fightingforit,
Similar sitch here.
My H left nearly 2 months ago and swears there is no OP. I have heard rumors and have an idea of who it might be. And when I "let myself go there" I actually slept better. All those awful things my H said about why he HAD to leave - I failed as a wife, I'm a terrible mother because I fed my kids chicken nuggets, I never brought him iced tea when he mowed the lawn, etc, etc, etc - they didn't feel like the real reason he left anymore. Because it's not the reason why he left - it's the excuse why he left. He needs an excuse to leave and make me the bad guy otherwise he's the bad guy and that doesn't fit his image. Besides, now that he knows (and I actually told him 2 months before he left that I would never leave him, no matter what) that I am standing for our marriage, he really looks like the bad guy leaving his wife and 3 kids. So keep in mind he's trying to convince himself, along with you but that doesn't make it the truth.
Keep strong!
Wow, thanks everyone. I am so encouraged to have logged on and find such thoughtful advice. Today is my 37th birthday and I spent it with my kids and brother. I got a text from my husband that said "Happy Birthday." We have been out of town for 3 days, I may be sensitive but that seems like even his text is passive aggressive.
labug- thanks, I will check out the other forums. Wasn't sure if it was WAS or midlife crisis. Makes sense what you said about therapy. She has basically said that I have been the identified "patient" in our relationship. He likes to seem perfect and had me to project things onto. I am doing individual therapy as well, and getting so much stronger. Setting boundaries with the things he is allowed to say to me. I asked him in the beginning if this was going to throw him off, but of course he said no.
Queen- Please tell me any insight you have on passive aggressive people? Can they change? Anything info would be useful at this point.
Accuray- I agree, I have questioned it many times myself. I will keep it on the forefront of my mind, but he denies anything with anyone.
He is currently living in a separate part of the house. I have asked him to move out because it is too emotionally draining for me to have him here and try to act "as if" I am doing ok with everything. I also thought that if he moved out he would miss the kids and I more. Any thoughts or advice?
Thanks so being so welcoming to a newcomer!
About the P/A stuff, we're all P/A at times, some people make a career of it. We sometimes spend a lot of time and energy on trying to figure out just what's wrong with the WAS when that energy would be better spent on working on ourselves.
If he is P/A that's his issue to deal with, there is nothing you can do abut it. But you can change the way you do things, the way you communicate which can make your life and all your relationships better.
You will always have you, you may or may not have H. You can't control anyone but yourself. Set your goals for you and work toward that. Read DB/DR and use the tools it provides. Don't turn it into a chess game, countering moves. Make changes that make you a better person, no matter the outcome.
There is one thing I really found helpful in understanding how passive aggressiveness works.
I suggest you search for The Three Faces of Victim,
An Overview of the Drama Triangle on the internet.
In that one article is a wealth of information on the dynamic.
labug is correct in that if your spouse is P/A only he can change that about him. He has to choose not to be anyone's victim. That means accountability, and for many being accountable for their choices, behaviour and decisions is scary.
We sometimes spend a lot of time and energy on trying to figure out just what's wrong with the WAS when that energy would be better spent on working on ourselves.
You will always have you, you may or may not have H. You can't control anyone but yourself. Set your goals for you and work toward that. Read DB/DR and use the tools it provides. Don't turn it into a chess game, countering moves. Make changes that make you a better person, no matter the outcome.
the first sentence - oh i wish i'd realized that months ago, but finally i'm there now - it is the most pivotal change for me in my switch - to turn the focus on myself and much much less on him. wish i'd known this at the beginning - or always for that matter!
love what you wrote labug - thanks
zig
hi fighting - so sorry to hear you are in this situation.
i only found this wonderful site a couple of months ago, 5 months into my switch. if i got it right yours has just started and in that way you should count yourself extremely lucky..
the advice i can give is that read the books as the others have suggested and start following the 37 rules and FORCE yourself to start focusing on what you are doing in every moment and not what your WAS is doing.
25yrsmlc posted somewhere - and it really stuck with me when i read it - about how she regretted all the time she wasted in the beginning not focusing on making herself a better person and seeing her own role in the relationship and what she could change to make it better - because after wards she realized that the whole process may have taken a much shorter time the sooner she had got started on herself
there is an amazing amount of advice and insight and info here - wish i had the time to just read it all - but life has got to be lived.
keep the faith, but let go of the expectations
take care of yourself first, before you try to take care of the switch
zig
Thanks for the advice on the sites to check out passive aggressive behavior. I am sure that I play a role in all this, I am just so confused. He really seemed happy to me. We renewed our vows last August for our 10 year anniversary and I just got the video of him saying his and his is crying (hardly ever does that) saying that he is so happy to have me by his side as his partner the rest of his life. I know that I need to focus on myself, my IC keeps saying that but I am so confused, shocked and hurt by what he is doing now that I get a little obsessive about it. I will try to start focusing on myself but I am going to go look up those websites right now!
What are the 37 rules?
Yes, trying so hard to let go of expectations. Thanks for all the advice, I feel like I am not alone in this crazy journey that none of my friends can relate to.
The 37 Rules
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.
Dear Fighting,
This looks longer than it is, b/c it includes the 37 "rules" with a few comments added. But then again, it IS still longer than most. Despite that, I hope you'll give it the attention I gave writing it.
Just Try and see if you can separate the chafff from the wheat, taking what applies and chucking the rest. I won't be offended.
These "rules" are merely
"strongly urged suggestions" that were assembled by DB veterans, mostly one veteran DBer named Sandi. Now and then they get modified & I added a few comments below.
What matters is that you understand the principles upon which these are based. These so called rules, are ALL based on Div Busting principles.
SO.... you MUST read the book, either the first one, Divorce Busting, and or the 2nd one, (which I prefer), which is Divorce Remedy.
Buy, rent, borrow or order the books today if you have not already. They are potentially life changing. I have 3 copies b/c I lent them out and they sometimes did not return. So now I have it on my Nook...problem solved.
These are not long, boring or dense books. I don't mean to harp on this b/c you're new here. But I recall a woman posting here
for months about how she "tried this and that DBing" but it "just didn't work"....
only to mention much later on and only with prodding, that she never had read the books b/c she "had a lot of things to read."
I admit it irritated me. She seemed too lazy to read ONE book on saving her m, but took the time to post here about how bad & lazy and mean her partner was. ALL of her descriptive words about him were negative.
All of them.
Back to the DB book(s), Some chapters relate more than others, so after you read the first few chapters to get the foundation, you'll get the ideas behind these strategies and understand WHY they exist.
After that then skim the table of contents AND THEN go to the most relevant parts. Such as "the depressed spouse" or "substance abuse" -- and I cite those just as examples.
The books articulate the approach this site uses, and it's NOT like other marriage solving approaches. Instead of re-hashing the past, and or listing your mutual grievances, (so you can have your "choreographed" arguments, AGAIN,
or picking at your childhood issues and how bad they were, or how they affected you or your spouse...
(hey, we know those problems need to be addressed, but LATER... not here at this crisis moment in your life)
Instead, we look at what behaviors HELP the marriage,
so we can do more of those, and
what behaviors hurt the marriage, so we can do less or none of those behaviors.
Sounds simple, yet it's radically different than most. And though simple, it's not necessarily "easy" to implement. There is a lot of UNlearning we have to do.
It's a SOLUTION BASED approach, so if you want to assign blame, go elsewhere.
IF you want to be declared "right" , go elsewhere.
If you want to condemn your h, go elsewhere...
I'm not saying that to be harsh, but to be direct,
and tell you what I learned the hard way.
I kid you not, but the first 3 mc's we saw, over 2 or 3 years, ALL said that my h was being "very selfish" and or "acting like a single man" and or
"not thinking of anyone but himself". Well, that felt
kind of good at first.
It validated my perception that my h was way out of line, that he either really wanted out of the marriage...or did not care about my wants/needs enough to act like it,
so it was a "take it or leave it" situation and that is NOT easy on the ego let me tell you.
The "good news" is that the marriage counselors made me feel like I was "RIGHT"... so yay...I was
-RIGHT, BUT POWERLESS....b/c
what do I DO with information that declares my h to be a selfish jerk?
Not a lot! Cry that I chose him in the first place, OR cry that he changed on me, OR Divorce him, or Be a doormat?
Hmmm....but gee--
Were those really my only options?
Thanks to the DB approach, I learned that
there was another option...
So when I read the books, I then came here, AND I also got a DB coach (which was the single most important step I took out of all of them.
I did eventually get a great MC who believed in DBing, & I don't want to short change him-such a good man, and he met my h and they hit it off so fwiw, I think male mc's who are Pro marriage are great helps for WAH's
b/c my mc thought I was great. He liked me as a wife, and I know he told my h that, or something like " YOU sure you are leaving HER and your kids...for a JOB/ADVENTURE???"
All I know is my h liked the mc,
and that was a first. BTW, I had seen that marriage counselor, alone, for months before they even met. I believe going to mc alone is better than not going UNLESS you get a rehasher who validates you wanting out.
I always assume when a friend asks for marriage advice, I ought to at least TRY to see it from their spouses view...doesn't everyone? I mean the friend asking you KNOWS you prefer them but don't you owe it to them to try and help KEEP the marriage going?
So yes I DID go to "marriage counselling" alone. Why not?
If you buy into the idea that one person can change a 2 person relationshihp, as I do, you can see why I would go with or without h....but the DB coach for ME, was an even more amazing Godsend. She was Just who I needed at that time in my life. I was so blessed. (Her name is Vernetta but she retired!! How dare a DB coach GAL of her own!!
I highly recommend them. Are they expensive? Well, compared to what? Not more expensive than other t's or mc's here, as I was paying $150-200$ an hour here, for mc's. ALSO, DB coaches are not as expensive as divorce...
But BTW--you DO have to Follow the DB coaches advice, (if you trust them) for their advice to help you!
As Zig mentioned, (& thanks for the plug, Zig!)
What I wish I had known much earlier, was how much time I was
wasting on WHAT my h was doing/thinking/feeling whatever he was doing/feeling/thinking....
and WHY/WHY/WHY?? he was doing/thinking/feeling/planning/dreaming/breathing/ watching tV the way he was....
I obsessed way too much and I got ANGRY too often and too deeply
...so angry that it consumed ME and my time and energy.
A saying about anger/unforgiveness that I found illustrative, was this:
Holding onto anger to punish someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire, to get smoke in their eyes. My anger and pain kept me from being the best mom I could be, & at such a vulnerable time for my kids...it was THAT realization which got me thinking maybe I should let go of the anger.
But I did NOT know how.
I did not see my parents let go of their grudges until my dad lay on his deathbed. I had not witnessed true forgiveness growing up. I had to learn it.
I did some more reading & some exercises in which I learned to turn my pain and anger over to God,
as a step towards forgiveness and
it may Sound gimmicky but I did it, out loud in the shower (so the kids would not hear & think I was nuts)
But I'd think it - "God, this is too much for me. So I turn my pain/anger over to YOU, please take it from me"...
and then saying it, and then hearing me say it,
all helped it to sink it and to lift a weight off my shoulders. It calmed me.
Especially just before H would call me.
I could see my girl's lives were being harmed BY ME & My anger, I was so preoccupied with my pain and rage at the unfairness of it all,
but at some point, I realized I could not blame all that on h. I could not blame how I treated my kids, on him.
So I owned how I chose to act with them....so I had to learn to let go of what I could not control.
I think that's a big "secret" to happiness...for real. I OWNED my emotional reaction and how I was with them. I did not like who I was becoming. But I did not see forgiveness growing up as a child. I did not know what it looked like. But I figured out one thing; it required letting go of the past...
So I changed. It's NOT EASY, but it's also NOT COMPLICATED.
The rules are super helpful but at some point in the NEAR future,
you need to know what YOU want to work on, in YOU.
Your H is not here working on the marriage, you are.
We cannot change or help HIM.
You only control you...think about that.
YOU ONLY CONTROL YOU so all the wondering about him is at best, useless. So is asking "WHY??"
SIDENOTE...I once worked in a summer camp for children w/cancer. An 11 y/o girl w/ cancer was there. She told me "I used to ask God, 'why am I sick God? Why ME, God, why ME?' I'd ask him why, why why?'
Then one morning I said
'I just am. So I'm going to try and have fun while I still can"...Well she sure DID have fun that summer. She learned new things and she swam farther than ever before, and swung on the rope swing higher than before.
And That was her last summer on earth...she taught me something I almost forgot.
The friend who went to camp with me reminded me of her when I said, "Why is h doing this to me? Why? WHY??" And my friend reminded me of our little 11 y/o "teacher"...
I realized that I was truly asking useless, unanswerable questions w/my precious time.My h probably does NOT know to this day, why he made the choices he made. So why would I spend my precious time trying to decode it? Well, I WON'T...
You cannot make your h feel a certain way and you cannot control his actions or feelings.
You CAN change the dynamic in your marriage--by changing how YOU react and interact with him,
so yes-- when one person in a two person relationship, behaves differently,
the relationship itself changes, by definition, just w/that one person's changes.
The 37 Rules
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
THESE First 8 rules are saying the same thing with different examples; DO NOT PURSUE or try to convince him...of anything.
The more you challenge his choices, the more you force him to defend and explain them. That solidifies the choices. 9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
Some folks focus on whether there is OW or OM even when there is no evidence. They simply do not believe it's possible to want out of a marriage without a 3rd party. Statistically they have a point but it's by no means a sure thing. It's more than half...but
as the "rule" says Do NOT snoop. And if an affair is not for sure a dealbreaker, I cannot understand the value of focussing on whether there is OW.
Why not snoop?
B/c If you want to try to work on the m even if there is an OW, if you want to to BE the better choice, then what's the point of snooping?
It often deflects. It often prevents or hinders the LBSer from digging deep into THEMSELVES to see what They can work on. What traits do THEY want to repair or change about themselves? What role did THEY play in how things went? Is it possible that they may have pushed their spouses into the arms of OP? (I'm not saying it's their fault of that affairs are justified...I'm saying to work on what you CAN control. I think the initial response of "is there someone else?" is so convenient, same as "Is it MLC?" b/c we don't want to believe WE had something to do with it.
At the same time, you cannot blame yourself for HIS choices. But you CAN improve yourself and make yourself happier and that happens to be more attractive.
Why not do that instead?
If there is OW/OM, the LBS might instead shift the blame and Not learn a damn thing about why the marriage ended (if it does)
and why the affair took place, and they go on in their lives repeating the same behavior and ending up in similar situations.
If there is OW and he cares about her enough to leave you, at some point you will KNOW...IF NOT, then all that energy spent on snooping could have been spent on becoming the woman you want to become.
That's why the DBers suggest not snooping.
It would be different if you KNEW that an OW was absolutely for sure, a dealbreaker for you--
Some people do know this, maybe b/c they saw it growing up and know they themselves cannot deal with it. OR they have experienced it before with the same spouse, and they see too much of a pattern, they can't go through it again, or it's the straw that broke the camel's back, etc.
But if this is the first time there's been a real crisis in the marriage and you want to try to work on it,
I urge you to pay special attention to that rule. Don't snoop. It usually backfires.
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
This^^^ is crucial to know, and it's true. Once you radiate this, you will be happier and so will your kids and, at some level, your h will wonder what the heck is wrong with HIS perception, if you are doing so well in your life...that matters a lot. You are not the one who will lose the most and at some level, you may pity him for his poor choices...so Know this, let it sink in. Not rubbing it in, just believing that regardless of outcome, YOU will be fine. 13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
More examples of knowing you will be fine AND making it happen AND letting that inner belief, show.15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
these^^^^ are all ways to show you are GAL, AND new behaviors, or "180s"...
you need to COUNTER and CONTRAST his negative images of you or the marriage
with new positives...so that he has no "fuel" for his negative images.
If you get angry at him, it only validates his choice to leave (and can speed it up).
You do NOT want him telling himself "Thank God I'm outta here b/c I'm SO RIGHT TO GO..."
You want to undermine the negatives he has used to justify/rationalize his choice. You do this by showing (not telling) him that his "data" about you isn't real.
You cannot TELL HIM this..you demonstrate the changes. If you highlight them or point them out
you merely look as if they are "tactical strategies" and not real changes...
so Do/Be the changes, do not talk about them.
Become a woman only a fool would leave.
17.You need to make your partner think that
you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
I often think ^^^ #17 is THE most important rule...or one of them. It makes you much more attractive and attractING...
and I think where the head goes, the heart, eventually, will follow.
So when you BELIEVE you will be happy no matter what HE does, and that you will survive this AND THRIVE after this, it will show and be true.
And it is true. Suppose you decide he's bad news for you - maybe he is not the man you married,
then at some point you will KNOW this in your head and then your heart will realize it too. Then YOU will move on...and you will be happy again.
but we are not there yet and may never be. So, back to YOU...
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realizes what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
I would add to this^^^, to Give him something to miss. No man misses a cold angry woman. A woman who laughs hard and often (at appropriate things) a woman who has friends she is warm & loving & affectionate to, who is interested in the world and people around her, who really LIKES herself, is someone people want to be around.
When you feel lousy and miserable and self pitying (even when you "deserve" to feel bad), you must realize that it's NOT going to help your cause. It's just a drag to be around someone like that.
Let's face it, even WE don't want to hang around with recently widowed people, (who "deserve" to be miserable) and even those we love, get too hard to be around for a long time or a whole lot. Time to get or polish up those acting skills b/c you are an uber calm
centered woman who knows HER WORTH and is NOT a loose cannon. Whatevet you believe the negatives HE believes about you are you NEGATE THOSE!
If he says you were sloppy but hyper, you get VERY tidy but you move like a relaxed Zen Sloth... (I'd use a different emoticon but there's no zen sloth)
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected.
Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake," b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
I'd just add, being LESS PREDICTABLE is a step towards being a bit more mysterious AND probably does a ways towards being a tad insecure about having you "no matter what" waiting around. Don't lose your patienc
But do NOT tell him that "no matter what, I'll be here waiting for you..."
that makes a nice song. But it gives him permission 1) to mistreat you as if you have no other options so you'll take the crap he dishes out AND
2) that there is NO rush to him "finding himself" and he can take all the time in the world to explore EVERY other option or urge he gets....
having him sense that there is at least the possibility of losing you (Which there IS, at some point, right?? I mean we all have a point beyond which we just can't go...but know this, it's farther away than you now think.\\ I put up with more TIME apart than I ever expected I would. No regrets about that as I had kids I put through more than I expected), but it was a good thing.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patience on your behalf.
NO R TALK from you...even if He brings it up---unless he's being VERY friendly and sober, and over a few days, not just one evening...OTherwiseveer off the topic til you see a MC or 3rd party
OR til enough time has passed with his new found "certainty" about how great you two are together...and even then, be calm and circumspect about it.
You go on living your new better, regardless of what he says or feels that HOUR...
21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
Losing your temper will confirm his fears/ complaints and validate them. Don't do it and don't go there. No matter how "right" you are, it does NOT help you.22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
No convincing him he's "wrong" to feel that way or "inaccurate" about his recall. Of course he's inaccurate. And of course you don't see things the same way. Two people who witness a car accident don't recall it the same way; so two emotionally invested "witnesses" won't see their marriage identically either.
What matters is how you'll see the future, from this day forward...but that's a long way off for now.
So don't argue with him about what he recalls or how he FEELS...
24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
It may feel counter intuitive to back off and be patient, but it's true. Only when he fears losing you or rocking the boat too much, (by seeing you detach)
or maybe "making the mistake of his life" will he really wonder...and he cannot do that with you challenging that choice. He needs the space and time to let good memories resurface b/c right now he's supprressing them so he can stay on his "mission.
I'd expect your h to act as if he's at peace with his brilliant brave choice...even if he's scared witless. He sure won't tell YOU that...he desperately wants to be "right"...25.
Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk.
This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
Aside from showing that you value and respect what they say, you are also gathering "intel" so that you know what's really bugging him. You want the data.
You need to know what it is YOU can work on to show change in you...but only change the things you think are validly worth changing.
if he wishes you spoke 4 languages and he's leaving you b/c you only speak 2, get real.26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
^^^ It is for you, AND it makes you feel better and that makes you look better AND act better (and obsess and nag and get angry LESS...)
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes.
They are for you only.
Meaning, don't point them out to show your changes...that makes them look tactical and temporary.29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up, no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
GET THIS^^^^....35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary--as in urgent/emergency matters ONLY.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.
So to sum up the 2 conclusions of what these rules lead to, for ME -
The "math" of it is,
Consistent change in you + sufficient time = change HE can believe in.
And
for your h to return to the marriage and reconcile, he will have to believe that
marriage to you can be better/different than before.
It's up to YOU to show that it can be.
So work on YOU and we'll help you all we can.
Be the best you that you can be.
Mother your children as best you can. IT's crucial they feel your love for them more now than ever, as they need you more now than ever...so it's the right thing to do
and
a loving co-parent is damn attractive too.
((( )))
beautiful advice, 25yearsmlc...what do u suggest where there is no contact (H doesn't really seem interested in DD, tho he sends money for her)?
Again, read Divorce Busting or Divorce Remedy. There are no fast shortcuts to anyone's sitches.
There is one thing I really found helpful in understanding how passive aggressiveness works.
I suggest you search for The Three Faces of Victim,
An Overview of the Drama Triangle on the internet.
In that one article is a wealth of information on the dynamic.
labug is correct in that if your spouse is P/A only he can change that about him. He has to choose not to be anyone's victim. That means accountability, and for many being accountable for their choices, behaviour and decisions is scary.
This information was unbelievable- I kept re-reading it all day. We are definitely on the triangle, for me knowledge is power because now that I know what the dynamic is I can change my part. Any other information on the subject you have would be great. My IC (who is also our MC) is having me read things on gas lighting behaviors because she feels I am the "patient" in the relationship in his mind. It is hard to find information on Passive aggressive behaviors. I had such a great session today. it was a joint session but I am feeling stronger and it shows. It helps to have support and kinship on this site, because then he isn't seeing me as this begging, pleading, person who needs him to live. I really do want to work on myself and have a healthy marriage, I don't want to go back to how it was after my eyes have been opened to the dysfunction. Thanks for all you advice and encouraging words.
Thanks 25yrsmlc for reminding me about my most important role, which is that of mother:)
25yearsmlc - your post brought me to tears. thank you - even though you wrote it to fighting, you wrote it to all of us, also.
would it be alright with you if i printed it out and showed it to my most supportive friend (actually the only person now who is fully supporting me in DB'ing. both families have pretty much given up - 7 months has gotten too long for them!) as well as to the counselor i am seeing who just announced that she thinks we are headed for divorce after 4 appointments?
That's fine Zig.
I assemble the ones I like that I write AND that others write, b/c a lot of themes are sort of universal here.
Heartbreak is also universal. And if you have kids, remember that they too, will someday face heartbreak.
If they are old enough, they will think of how YOU modelled being a woman of grace/dignity and strength in the face of such a setback.
If they are not old enough they will ask you. So think of that on those days when you want to wallow, which we all do at times.
it's especially then that we have to pick ourselves up and dust ourselves off, and take a step forward.
((( )))
I can't offer much else at the moment, except another suggestion.
On You Tube, search for the name Paul Hegstrom. There are a number of videos which may help you or your spouse if he's receptive to suggestion and seeking out help for his own stuff. Beware as many WAS are not receptive to any suggestion you may make, because they either see you as an enemy, or an authority figure that must be rebelled against. You know your own situation best.
thanks 25mlc- i need to hear what you just wrote - as i am in the midst of wallowing slightly - just posted about it on my thread.
that is a good way to think about it - what are you now that you can proudly talk about to your kids much much later. i like that:)
Ok, not feeling as strong today. I am trying to work on myself but I don't understand what went wrong, what snapped in him. We renewed our vows 6 months ago and he was so sincere, he had written personal things and said he knew I was the woman he was meant to be with. It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around sometimes. Today I keep thinking there has to be an OW. My mind keeps going there and then I get anxious. He went to go look for a place to live today, maybe that's part of it too. I am angry, and I want to express it. How do you know when there is an OW, and how do you get over it if there is?
Stop thinking about OW, it really doesn't matter. He's left and if you're trying to stand for your marriage, obsessing about OW is not the way to do it.
In my sitch, I have heard rumors (I haven't asked, people just keep bringing me info - very frustrating). And I know how it feels, that tightness in your chest just thinking about it makes me so upset. However, when I heard the rumors, and the more than rumors, I was actually able to sleep better that night. It then became clear to me that the awful things H said to me when he was leaving me (I failed as a W, I'm a terrible mother, etc., etc.) weren't about me and my shortcomings. They were about him justifying to himself why he was leaving. He had to have a scapegoat, and that was me. Because he can't be the bad guy, that doesn't fit his image. So, that helped me. Plus, in all the things he said to me, none of it made sense. However, if I add a 3rd person to our marriage (OW), then it all makes sense.
As far as getting over it, my H won't admit to OW, so not sure how to do that part. I just know for now, I try not to think about it as it really doesn't matter right now.
Hoping tomorrow is a better day for you!
Thanks Nemo. How do you find the strength to follow the principles after the things he has said? It sounds like my husband, he always has to be the "good guy". I am just so confused today.
I looked at what he said. Did I mention he gave me a 6 page break up letter detailing all of my faults. Then we spent 10 hours discussing in great depth more of my deficiencies as wife, mother, friend, human being, etc. I heard what he said, and accpeted some of it. The rest is half truths or outright lies. The "real" truth is H wanted to leave and H came up with reasons to do so.
Do I know if he's coming back? Nope. Do I know if I want this rendition of my husband back? Not too sure. Am I going to do everything I can to keep my marriage in tact? Sure am, I don't want to have any regrets later down the road.
None of my questions have anything to do with OW - she does not matter right now. Perhaps later she will. And I'll give you a little secret, I actually pray for her. I pray that if she exists that she will have a change of heart and realize that she is breaking up a family, that she will do the right thing, and then become a better person because of this experience. I don't wish her harm. She is just a result of a bad choice my H has made.
Also, and I hope this gives you comfort, she will do something at some point to screw up her sitch w/ our H's. They don't know our H's like we do. So, make yourself the better choice and then deal with what comes later.
Good luck! Tomorrow will be a better day!!
Thanks for your post. You are definitely inspiring to me, I have to remember what you said, about not having regrets. I am not sure I want my H back, but I know my kids do.
Glad to help!!
ffi and fn...
Not sure if either of you have come across a post here, I think in the MLC forum, about the WAS script... it is written as a WAS "how to" and quite funny...
Hope you get a chance to read it one day...
Anyhow, the point is, as you said fn, often what they say about the LBS is not about the LBS but rather the WAS justifying their desire to leave.
Not to say that there may be some truths... we often find that the stuff that stings, might have more truth than we want to admit... the stuff that we can simply blow off as untrue is quite obviously just their rationalization, in some twisted way...
we call it "re-writing history"...
Learn your WAS script. It can serve you well when you try to decipher their world and their actions...
And remain focused on yourselves and your kids...
Actually, just went looking for and found it. There's a couple versions of it, I'll post the most recent re-post of it:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2199355&page=1Understand that it actually is MLC for dummies, but one thing we notice is that MLC and WAS have some similar behaviours and script... and the way to DB both is pretty much the same...
Enjoy the read.
Thanks, I was just looking for it!
Thanks for sharing. Not sure weather to laugh or cry but I feel less crazy.........
Ok, thanks I will check that out now. In your original post to me you said something about his sense of alienation- can you tell me more about that?
THANK YOU!
Not to hijack your thread but my H said those horrible things to me as well and read off a laundry list of everything I have ever said or did wrong in our 14 years together. Some of the facts were wrong and some things were out and out lies but whenever I would correct him he would tell me I was wrong or else he would change the subject. I felt like dog doo for a month until I found this site and realized it was all script and that it truly was his problem, not mine. Of course I did things wrong in the marriage but according to his made up history of us I never did anything right.
Now I know there is OP. He will not admit it but thats okay. I actually feel somewhat sorry for her because she is more than likely an innocent person who he has lied to as well. She probably feels sorry for him for being married to such a horrible person who does not appreciate such a wonderful man. Please. He was a wonderful man before the aliens nabbed him.
And the link to MLC for Dummies is hilarious. When I got to Chapter 11 about the art of clinging to the edge of the bed I spit out my drink!!! It's like H studied this for months before the bomb.
Not to hijack your thread but my H said those horrible things to me as well and read off a laundry list of everything I have ever said or did wrong in our 14 years together. Some of the facts were wrong and some things were out and out lies but whenever I would correct him he would tell me I was wrong or else he would change the subject. I felt like dog doo for a month until I found this site and realized it was all script and that it truly was his problem, not mine.
Absolutely. In the mind of a WAS, the LBS IS wrong... because they need to justify...
Now there is the balance that tells us that IN THEIR MIND, they are feeling the way they are and feel somehow offended and beaten by the LBS. So it is their way of defending themselves.
My W actually frames it in a... what's that called... double bind or something like that... she tells me (and she's told the kids this, as well) that I have to always be right...
So I cannot defend myself, otherwise I'm trying to be right...
Quite a defeating sitch and feeling...
Thanks for the insight on the crazy things they say! Can anyone help me with understanding detachment? I have been reading it on the boards, but what is the theory? Do you really detach , as in let them go?
Hi FFI,
I have just read your thread. I hope everything turns out for the best for you. I am relatively new to this, but what has helped me detach (though I have not detached emotionally yet) is to GAL. I am attending activities that make me happy, such as learning italian, resuming my gym routine, go out with friends. I am in the process of starting wind surfing lessons and I plan on taking photography courses after summer. I also take long walks at the beach. Generally, I do whatever makes me happy. All these activities will help you keep busy. You will soon start feeling stronger. You will re-discover yourself and realise that no matter what, YOU WILL MAKE IT!
Also, please please read DB or DR books. I have read them both. They are very encouraging. I prefer DR book, but this is just my opinion. I have them on my bedside table and read them whenever I feel down.
Well, that's it for now, good luck with your sitch. Have a nice weekend!
Do you really detach , as in let them go?
Yes.
You control only you.
You did not cause his sense of alienation, although behaviors you may have had/have likely did contribute to it.
We all see the world through our own very set of dirty,tinted and scratched filters.
Your spouse is not you and you don't perceive things in the same way.
When we feel angry or hurt it generally comes from an inner sense of a loss of self worth. Someone took a slap at our self esteem, directly or indirectly.
It's generally triggered by a behavior, a word, a look, a gesture that harkens back to a ideation of ourselves as unworthy, bad, etcetera.
Some people call this "pushing our buttons".
You can do nothing about discovering or deactivating those buttons, unless your spouse tells you or shows you they're there. Then you can only try not to push them. Even then that's hard if there is something inherent about who you are that pushes them.
For instance: Let's say that leaving your underwear skid side up on the floor for you is a matter of forgetfulness, but to him, leaves him feeling disrespected and taken for granted. Would you then not make the effort to see this behavior is changed?
Your goal is to deactivate YOUR OWN buttons. Your goal is to modify and change specific behaviors that your spouse has pointed to as being particularly hurtful.
My spouse gave me a six page letter of all my perceived faults. Some of which WERE true flaws and others which were not flaws but character assets.
i.e. pigheaded to one person is persistence to another.
I am not the same person I was, although my marriage may not survive this break. I have become someone I am proud of, regardless of what my spouse thinks of me.
Thanks Kaffe - loved the laugh!!
Queen-
Thanks for the insight. He actually did say that my messiness makes him feel taken for granted. I didn't understand that. I am definitely a work in progress and I am inspired by everyone on this board who is turning a "crisis" into a chance for self reflection. Thanks for that.
FFI-
As for the messiness, my H accused me of that, too. However, my house is now fairly peaceful and clean since he doesn't live here anymore.
And as I go through different areas of the house, for I fear I will have to move, I noticed that my H kept everything, even garbage (and I mean actual garbage). I am not saying that I'm not messy, but it just seems interesting that the house seems more in order since he's gone.
Ok, does anyone have any advice on family outings? We had our first social outing since the "Bomb" and my husband likes to pretend everything is fine. I am so angry when he is around, mostly because he is trying to act like nothing is wrong, I just don't get it. We were at our friend's 2 year old's birthday party and they know what is going on because I told them (he still doesn't talk about it to anyone). I feel like I am living a lie, pretending we are this family when he is looking for places to live and saw a divorce lawyer on my birthday!!!!!! I am trying not to show anger but at this point it is not working for me, because you know what I am pissed that he just wants to walk away. Any words or wisdom would help- thanks!!!!!
Ok, does anyone have any
advice on family outings?
Yes...enjoy them.
The outings are not about the future of your m, but having fun with whomever you're with
and giving your kids a good time. And maybe giving your h something to miss. You don't have to make HIM your focus...why would you?
Talk to others and make jokes, tell stories, ASK them about their lives if you can't manage to "perform" and be in a great mood---let the others be shocked if and when they hear the news of a divorce. They'll think he's nuts-
whereas
if you are visibly fuming or seething at him, then what's for him to miss? And people may well end up believing the crap he says about you.
If you need acting lessons, get them. A lot of us deserve Oscars...
We had our first social outing since the "Bomb" and my husband likes to pretend everything is fine. I am so angry when he is around, mostly because he is
trying to act like nothing is wrong, I just don't get it.
Because
1) it is easier on HIM and frankly it's easier on the audience b/c who wants to see a couple in crisis, at a social outing? Awkward...they tend to blame thte party most upset.
2) if you are holding out hope that he'll wake up and return, and HE MAY,
then keep the road home, paved & smooth.
When you get home, get away if need be, and be busy nurturing the kids even with him around act like he's furniture they enjoy...you are not intearcting WITH HIM but "around him" and he can see what a great woman/mom/friend you are...and what a fool HE is
We were at our friend's 2 year old's birthday party and they know what is going on because I told them (he still doesn't talk about it to anyone).
I feel like I am living a lie, pretending we are this family when he is looking for places to live and saw a divorce lawyer on my birthday!!!!!! I am trying not to show anger but at this point it is not working for me, because you know what I am pissed that he just wants to walk away. Any words or wisdom would help- thanks!!!!! see above...
and lose that anger, at least in front of him
. It simply does not help you. it validates his choice to leave. You want to confuse him right? You want him to wonder why he'd give up a great catch like you, right?
Then don't keep bitching at him or around him or you will fuel his negatives.
I'm not saying be a Stepford wife. You can be "hurt" when others are not around but you are trying to show that "awakening" in the rules.
That you KNOW you will ultimately be alirght and that HE is the one who is losing the most.
You can even pity him; i would. He'll NEVER be as close to his children as he could have been...and he may not know what he's lost
til a long time from now.
But that is HIS loss (and your kids')...for their sake, give him something to miss.
But know
you will be fine no matter what HE chooses to do.He is not in charge of how you feel or how your day wentor how your hours were spent or how your future looks...
You are in charge of all that.Let him
sense that you think he's making the biggest mistake of his life BUT that you will do more than recover from it...
do NOT tell him this, but "radiate" it. Make sense? You want him to second guess himself
and you cannot make that happen by directly challenging him to do that. It entrenches his views.
You have to believe it and live it and at some point
that will bug the heck out of him. Trust me on that. The minute he realizes you are "going to be MORE than fine" without him,
but poor HIM, he'll miss the kids, and HE will have to pay money, and HE will have to drive or travel to see them and poor HIM
but when he goes to blame you and
all he sees is a happy warm woman with friends and children around who love her, and the possibility of OM interested in her and finding her attractive.. (instead of a seething furious shrew, all alone waiting for him to come home so she can pounce on him with more of her anger---
which would make it easier on HIM)
he'll see the new you and he will have to wonder wth he is doing.
Hi 25,
You make it so clear and sound so easy. I wish I could radiate at least that exterior right now.
I know that as a wife, I can't get angry at my H, I don't know why. However, I am deeply hurt by my H's actions. But, as a mommy, I am livid at my children's father for acting like a spoiled child and not doing anything to soothe his children's fear or try to co-parent.
How do you handle that part as you're trying to protect your kids and keep their suffering to a minimum?
(Sorry for the hijack.)
Thank you so much 25. I had a night of insomnia last night and was on this site for hours and I saw quite a few of your posts. You seem to have this amazing insight and you are so positive, I admire you for that. I was wondering if you had any books you read that were particularly helpful? I saw the weekend session you went to, but it is very far from my home. I am seeing an IC and have a divorce busting coach, but I still feel angry and resentful and sometimes (more than I like to admit) sorry for myself. I know I need to work on myself but I keep reacting to him. Thanks again for the advice, I really needed to hear those things.
Nemo- you can hijack anytime, I we are all in this together:)
Hi 25,
You make it so clear and sound so easy. I wish I could radiate at least that exterior right now.
Oh dear, don't ever believe I found it easy to do, at all. I said it was "SIMPLE", as in "not complicated." But it was very hard to do b/c I felt a grave injustice had been done to me AND to our children.
(I still do think that but not in an angry way, just like a sad car accient way.) But there are two thoughts I held onto that might help you, to keep calm. We all must find the "something" or mantra or exercise, that works for us, and use it.
First, showing my anger to my H never once helped me or our marital cause, once the crisis hit. It backfired.
So in short, it HURT ME MORE to show my anger in front of him...so I stopped doing it for the most part.
Second, though I believe he deeply wounded our children, esp our oldest d, I ALSO believe we have given them a gift.
I did not grow up seeing redemption or forgiveness. My children now have.
That's a legacy I'm happy with and it probably would not have occurred, but for this ordeal called MLC or WAH, etc.
I know that as a wife, I can't get angry at my H, I don't know why.
not clear about this^^ sentence. Wives can get mad. What don't you know?
To be clear, yes you CAN get angry - I'm saying not to show it to HIM...not now anyway.
And yes, my h did "get it" eventually. He realized how harmed his r with our oldest daughter was, how deeply he hurt her, when we went to Retrovaille. CORRECTION, he showed me with tears at Retrovaille, that he got it. But Maybe it happened sooner/earlier...?
However, I am deeply hurt by my H's actions. But, as a mommy, I am livid at my children's father for acting like a spoiled child and not doing anything to soothe his children's fear or try to co-parent.
How do you handle that part as you're trying to protect your kids and keep their suffering to a minimum?
(Sorry for the hijack.)
protecting your kids from the trauma of seeing their parents wounding each other is a good thing. So you are doing THEM a favor by not losing it in front of your h, or them.
When my kids asked me "what's going to happen?" (b/c at their age they have the right to make this largely about what happens to THEM),
I reassured them by referring to several friends and activities in their lives, that would NOT change.
Stress what will remain the same for them, no matter what happens. Best advice I can give you, is that.
For instance If you don't have to move, "you will still have your room, your friends, Pete can still play every Tuesday and you'll have the same school too," ETC
If they ask you
IF you are divorcing and paperwork has not been filed and you hold out some hope, even a small amount, then don't say you are sure you are getting a divorce. My DB coach said "don't tell them unless you are 100% certain it's happening and even then, don't tell them too far in advance. It drags it out for them. SOME notice is fine, but depends on r's you have and their maturity level.
So if he files-hey Even if he gets the ball rolling, you don't have to push it.
You can say things like "I sure hope not, b/c I've loved your dad for a long time"
and then I'd reassure them of something about THEM. At one point I told my youngest, "I promise you this. I will do what I really truly believe will make YOU happiest"...and I meant it. And it helped her feel safer.
Finally, I separately asked my d's (son was at college)
what their worst fear or biggest concern was -
in the event of a divorce. My then 16 y/o d said "moving". My youngest said "probably moving & not seeing dad much". I thought we could hold onto the house for 2 years , til d16 graduated from high school ,so THAT is what I stressed. "No moving for you so enjoy your friends and your prom and High school, etc" and she felt better.
She did not feel better about her father but she felt better about HER future, and she worried less for her sister and me.
IF asked whether I "wanted" a divorce, I'd say "No b/c your dad is the love of my life, but if it comes down to it, I know I'll recover b/c I have you guys and my friends and my career so we won't be on the streets."
I was luckier than many.
And don't start to feel worse if you find this hard. I thought at times it was "Mother Teresa" hard. Same goes for "Applauding loudly for the 1% of positives he does" which was also DB coach'es advice.
IT is hard in part b/c you don't believe your h "deserves" forgiveness
or deserves you being anything less than murderously enraged around him.
I get that. In a way he may deserve that.
But so what?
it doesn't help YOU! You are who we care about, Not him...and your kids someday, sadly, will come to you after their first love breaks up w/them. Model for them NOT falling apart or becoming a shrew...and if you only have sons same things applies in the male version.
I put various playlists on my Ipod (sad, work out=mad, romantic music with some unidentified OM-but who looked like a movie star, if I had the guts or things looked better, I'd put the playlist on for romance with h...and I got exercise. REAL EXERCISE which helped me feel so much better and look better I might add.
I called them walks, but they were more like "Fury Marches". I ALSO put Marianne williamson and Wayne Dyer and "the Power of Now" on my Ipod, so I could think and pray too. Willamson has good stuff on forgiveness even if she is too new agey for some.
Hope this helps.
Hard session in MC today. Had to discuss our upcoming vacation that is prepaid and non-refundable. I was crying because I just wanted to take our kids on a nice family vacation, we haven't had one yet. My H says he doesn't want to go anymore, and the MC says not to take them alone because it is a big step and in the end it will hurt them since he is planning on moving out soon. I just want to go, enjoy my kids and swim and laugh with them. Why should all of us suffer because H is so selfish? Having a hard time coping today. How can a man do this to his family?
I had an IC session today that felt really empowering while I was in session. But now that I am home I am so sad, just cried in the shower so my S4 wouldn't see me. She said that she really believes that he never loved me the way I love him. She said to believe what he is doing right now ( looking for a place to move out to, seeing a divorce lawyer), even though we renewed our vows in August and he was sobbing, on and on about how much joy he felt with me.
She said we both have a lot of issues from childhood that we are dealing with, and we can never have a healthy relationship because he isn't motivated to work on his baggage. She said to just move on with getting healthy and the kids will be ok. I feel like we have failed them as parents. She wants me to move on (she is also his IC and our MC). Sometimes I don't know up from down after I come out of there.
is there anyone else who can take his place on the vacation and use his ticket? i'm so sorry for you but maybe it would help?
I had an IC session today that felt really empowering while I was in session. But now that I am home I am so sad, just cried in the shower so my S4 wouldn't see me. She said that she really believes that he never loved me the way I love him.
Get a new c. Sorry but I've had it with these "throw in the towel and start fresh" people who know nothing of solving TOUGH problems.
If it is at all complicated or takes more than a month, they tell you to bolt or accept it, b/c THEY don't know what else to say or do. THEY get frustrated and can't support long term efforts...
Explain DBing to the ones you interview and that you would greatly prefer saving the marriage/family and you want help to leave no stone unturned.
IF it comes to divorce THEN they can help you adjust and accept...
I mean
She's a mind reader who can see into your h's heart in the past?? Good grief.
And having her as YOUR Ind counselor AND HIS - AND the marriage's is, imo a conflict of interest.
She said to believe what he is doing right now ( looking for a place to move out to, seeing a divorce lawyer), even though we renewed our vows in August and he was sobbing, on and on about how much joy he felt with me.
More mind reading on her end. The fact is this -You DO have to deal with what he's doing now,
but that doesn't mean he isn't conflicted or that your past was all a lie. Sheesh...
She said we both have a lot of issues from childhood that we are dealing with, and we can never have a healthy relationship because he isn't motivated to work on his baggage.
OMG---so go work on YOUR issues with someone who will show you how to be the best YOU...and does not foretell the future with your h in such a dismissve way. Or tell you to give up on a marriage b/c "HE won't play" with you. IF we all thought that we HAD to have our spouses' participation as she says, we'd all be divorced by now.
One tenet of DBing is that YES -ONE person in a two person relationship can change the dynamic in the relationship - by changing themselves...
it's sort of self evident
but so many of us are too busy keeping score about OUR sacrifices and how the other one isn't pulling their weight, and "what about ME and MY needs??"
So we stop doing OUR own work--but don't. Keep working on YOUR STUFF no matter what so you know you will come out of this healthier and stronger and, let's face it MORE attractive...
She says you have childhood issues. (Who doesn't??) Well that's fine - so go work on them when you have time
b/c you are about to have a whole lot more "issues" if your m fails AND So will your kids...
DBing is about doing the behaviors that help the marriage - and fewer or none of the ones that hurt the marriage.
DBing is solution based, it is NOT focussing on your past or the trauma of your childhood
or a personality disorder or the death of a parent...THAT stuff matters but it does not help you OR YOUR MARRIAGE NOW
b/c NOW TODAY--DO WHAT HELPS THE M, AND DON'T TO WHAT HURTS...simple, but radically different for SOME therapists..
so NO, you do NOT HAVE to solve all your childhood issues OR REHASH THE PAST and relive the frickin' nightmares from that time in your life--
to improve your marriage.
Last week our car went to the mechanics. We want to sell the car but we know it has "issues." So the car guy calls with a long list of problems with the car, which is an older car.
I said "fix it enough so it runs and I can sell it' b/c
if we fix ALL the things we think WERE wrong with it in the past AND are now wrong (and assuming we are right the first time)
it'll take forever and TIME MATTERS..." Same for your m. IF you have too many "buttons" or a bad temper, work on it. But the idea of "repairing your childhood in order to work on your m" or making the past all fine, is an unsuccessful strategy.
Ask yourself if your marriage has improved by seeing this MC. She may give you good pep talks to help you realize you really will be alright no matter what your h does b/c in the end, YOU are in charge of your happiness. That's great.
But why give up on the m now? Don't leave any stone unturned and then at least YOU wont' have regrets.
You have children and you want to do right by them. IMO, it'd be smart to Try a MC who is more pro-marriage than this one.
Tell the new one that short of physical danger, you want to give this at least a year (or however long you can do it--or use the divorce timeline as a guide or whatever) and ask for help getting you to that point in time.
So they don't fear that you'll be stuck in one place endlessly seeking their advice on a lost cause--which is THE MC's fear...but if you say "for this amount of time help ME CHANGE into my best self and to be open the m reconciling, then they ought to stop telling you to give up.
I have a huge problem with one counselor treating 3 different conflicting "entities"...
May I ask if she is in her first marriage and if so, whether it's lasted more than 5 years?
She said to just move on with getting healthy and the kids will be ok. I feel like we have failed them as parents. She wants me to move on (she is also his IC and our MC). Sometimes I don't know up from down after I come out of there.
has she read the books of MWD? What's her opinion of them?
Or Retrovaille?
I would not go to MC with a marriage counselor who wasn't intimately familiar with both of these things.
My advice may sound dismissive & I apologize if it does.
But I think one of your marital problems is that you have an unhelpful mc.
That's how I see it. Sorry!
PS
best thing I did for the kids during our ordeal was taking them on two trips
without h. First we took a short ski holiday and rented a cabin with a hot tub and huge flat screen. We skiied and played games and watched movies and went into the hot tub with the snow...
had a fun time WITHOUT H which showed the kids "We are a fun family, with or without all the members"....heck, we military families would kill ourselves if we thought every person in the family had to be there in order to have fun or relax.
If you can get a friend or sister to go with you DO SO but don't NOT go...
DO GO...and I suggest you not take your h b/c he won't be the fun guy you are dreaming of,
and by you going and having fun and making memories for your children
you give him something to miss WHILE you make your new life fun.
I also planned a trip for our 25th wedding anniversary although it became apparent h would not be here for it. So I adjusted and took my 3 kids to ITaly and we had among the best vacations ever.The planning itself cheered me up once I realized we were going no matter what...talk about empowering.
The trip was wonderful....No tension and no fights. A great time...(and boy did it bother my h! He probably resented it too, but I found out later that he was constantly trying to reach us... but I was not concerned about it.)
We went to a stimulating place I'd always wanted to see,
with no reminders of h and I rarely thought about our marital problems when we toured Florence and Rome...like maybe never.
Go! HAVE FUN!
25, when I logged onto my computer and saw you posted I got more excited than if it were a text from my H:) I always know it's going to be some golden advice.
I feel like in the past 24 hours I have actually started to get it- what DB is all about. I was reading everyone's posts like crazy, devouring Laura Munson's book and I had a session with my DB coach (shot out to Chuck).
I was reading the resentment post from Accuray right before my coaching session, and I think for the first time I was able to come from a place of calm. There was also a line in Laura's book where she says, "I don't buy it" in response to what her husband is telling her, which by the way is EXACTLY what mine is saying. It kind of all clicked when I was talking to my coach.
He told me to treat my husband as if it were my brother talking, that way I wouldn't react. He told me to do exactly what my husband doesn't expect ( obviously a reaction).
So last night I called the hotel and explained the situation and got a refund ( it was a timeshare presentation so both husband and wife had to be present for the "deal"). I send my husband a text "great news- got out of our reservation and our money back! I think you should take that mountain biking trip you have been talking about!" He is always saying that he really wants to take a guided biking tour in Utah so I printed out a schedule of trips for that week (we have already taken the time off work) and taped it to his door.
I am going with the kids on the trip, my brother offered to go (I have 3 brothers, 0 sisters). I am super close with my brother, but I want this to be about me and the kids, and like 25 said, showing him that we are a family with or without his presence.
This morning when he was leaving for work he said he found a place to rent and he needed our tax return for income verification, I said, "no problem" and grabbed it for him without any attitude. I asked him if he was going to go on the mountain biking trip when we were in Hawaii and he said, "It's not the right time". I said- "I think you should go, it will be fun!"
Tonight was his night to watch the kids, and he really seemed more engaged than I have seen him in a long time. We passed each other in the kitchen, and it was a little akward, he looked sad and usually I would hug him but instead I left for yoga.
So I feel like it has been a good day.
About the MC, I laughed out loud at your comments! I keep trying to figure her out. I think she may be trying to get me to detach, because she "slipped" he other day. I brought in a video of our vow renewal (last August, 10 years) and she said that she had a visceral reaction to seeing it, and she also had tears in her eyes. She said "You may have to just ride this out", but then she caught herself, and said "I don't want you to have any false hope though".
I asked her if I needed to see a lawyer at my session and she said, "not yet". So maybe she is on our side, but wants to fix some unhealthy beliefs we have about marriage and each other? Or is my head in the sand?
I worry about switching because my husband it totally on board with going to her. At this point, since he wants a D ( so he says) I think if I wanted to switch he may quit going. We see her together for 2 hours every Monday, I see her for 2 hours every Tuesday and he does an hour during lunch on Wednesday. This has been since January. I think for now I will let her work on my childhood stuff and get my support for the marriage here with my follow DBers, my coach, my friends and myself.
I am finding a lot of strength in everyone's stories, thanks for posting them so honestly.
Goodnight
25, when I logged onto my computer and saw you posted I got more excited than if it were a text from my H:) I always know it's going to be some golden advice.
Thank you. Whatever help I can give, is only b/c of being here, having a great DB coach and supportive mc (eventually b/c he was my 3rd)) and even a good L who was on my side--the side of the m. She got me to file for a sep instead of a divorce. so the assets could be protected (H might have mortgaged the house at one point to invest with his "heroes" and he'd have thought it was brilliant) but she talked me into not ending things then & there, b/c she had "a feeling"...
I feel like in the past 24 hours I have actually started to get it- what DB is all about. I was reading everyone's posts like crazy, devouring Laura Munson's book and I had a session with my DB coach (shot out to Chuck).
Good. Laura Munson sometimes gets accused of holding too many people back from "reality" or not accepting what is. I guess that's probably true for some who see signs of hope when there really are none, But OTOH she also shows you how to detach. Plus sometimes you have to follow your gut, not what you WANT to believe but what you really don't believe - as in, when you "just don't buy it".
I was reading the resentment post from Accuray right before my coaching session, and I think for the first time I was able to come from a place of calm. There was also a line in Laura's book where she says, "I don't buy it" in response to what her husband is telling her, which by the way is EXACTLY what mine is saying. It kind of all clicked when I was talking to my coach.
He told me to treat my husband as if it were my brother talking, that way I wouldn't react. He told me to do exactly what my husband doesn't expect ( obviously a reaction).
Good stuff! ^^^^
So last night I called the hotel and explained the situation and got a refund ( it was a timeshare presentation so both husband and wife had to be present for the "deal"). I send my husband a text "great news- got out of our reservation and our money back! I think you should take that mountain biking trip you have been talking about!" He is always saying that he really wants to take a guided biking tour in Utah so I printed out a schedule of trips for that week (we have already taken the time off work) and taped it to his door.
This ^^^ was perfect. Now back off telling him what else he "Should" do (or you'll be "shoulding all over him", a funny phrase but it makes a point).
Don't fuel any negatives or accusations of being controlling or pushing him one way or "trying to make him feel guilty" (which he MIGHT think in his state of mind).
You handled the dilemma and he's free to do whatever he wants with his time...your cheerful reaction to solving the "mutual" problem was great. Now what he does with his free time is NOT YOUR PROBLEM... make sense?
I am going with the kids on the trip, my brother offered to go (I have 3 brothers, 0 sisters). I am super close with my brother, but I want this to be about me and the kids, and like 25 said, showing him that we are a family with or without his presence.
and showing you and the kids the same thing.
Good for you! Oh be prepared for him to show 1) no reaction or 2) a resentful one as if HE is a martyr....let him. This is his "task" and it's his lesson to learn. You are not punishing him. You are just drawing a line around you/the kids so he can't wreck what's inside b/c HE is miserable. The happier you seem (within reason) the more he'll wonder if this might just be HIM after all...
which he may have known back at the vow re-newals and clung to you more.
***SIDENOTE - I can't help but comment that more than a few couples renew their vows within a year of one of them walking away. Seems like an oddly high number. I don't have empirical evidence, just anecdotal. But many couples here discuss their renewals and I have never seen one in a marriage that lasted, now that I think of it.***
But now he's still sad and depressive and mayne seeing himself for the ingrate miserable person he's becoming is so much easier when they can blame YOU and their chiidhood... rather than realizing this is a pattern he learned in his childhood-
he was not happy then and isn't happy now and he cannot emotionally handle being THE cause of his present misery. (Maybe it would mean he "caused" some of his childhood problems and that makes him a bad person...I'm not a shrink. Just spitballing here...)
This morning when he was leaving for work he said he found a place to rent and he needed our tax return for income verification, I said, "no problem" and grabbed it for him without any attitude. I asked him if he was going to go on the mountain biking trip when we were in Hawaii and he said, "It's not the right time". I said- "I think you should go, it will be fun!"
Tonight was his night to watch the kids, and he really seemed more engaged than I have seen him in a long time. We passed each other in the kitchen, and it was a little akward, he looked sad and usually I would hug him but instead I left for yoga.
So I feel like it has been a good day.
About the MC, I laughed out loud at your comments! I keep trying to figure her out. I think she may be trying to get me to detach, because she "slipped" he other day. I brought in a video of our vow renewal (last August, 10 years) and she said that she had a visceral reaction to seeing it, and she also had tears in her eyes. She said "You may have to just ride this out", but then she caught herself, and said "I don't want you to have any false hope though".
I asked her if I needed to see a lawyer at my session and she said, "not yet". So maybe she is on our side, but wants to fix some unhealthy beliefs we have about marriage and each other? Or is my head in the sand?
Please hear me now...SEE A LAWYER ASAP...your h already has. What are you waiting for?
KNOW THIS---seeing a lawyer is empowering b/c you get information that allays your fears and panic. You need not DO anything but get information.
But do it.
The fact that your h has seen one (and most men make far more financial plans before leaving their families, than women do when they leave their families. FAR MORE) It cannot hurt you to go see a L and I'm shocked she said "not yet".
WHY NOT "SEE" A L? Why not?
HOW CAN IT HURT YOU TO KNOW YOUR RIGHTS AND IF NEED BE, PROTECT YOURSELF?? You don't have to tell him you went, and you don't have to file a thing...
but make copies of the tax information and income verification etc and give it to YOUR L (and don't you dare use the same one).
When my h was in his full blown MLC and wanted to "invest in the GOLD RUSH" up on the tundra (his words, I swear) and said I was "Just being negative"...
the legal separation prevented him from being able to mortgage our home and get at anymore marital assets without my knowing/consenting. Believe me his ordeal cost us a fortune as it was. He got mad at the time but in a few weeks seemed to have things sink in more. But I did not do it to fix us or get a reaction. I did it mainly for my children, and also for some peace of mind. My fears were getting the best of me at night.
So 2 years ago (4 years after the sep filing) he blurts out, "Sure am glad WE did not mortgage our house to buy into their awful partnership" ....like he has amnesia about why "we" could not do that.
I said nothing b/c sometimes that's the most loving thing to do. But in HIS memory it was some mutual choice.
POINT IS - HE IS GLAD "WE" made that choice...wacky, huh? Protect your kids and yourself and do right by them. You will never regret doing that.
But if he's hiding assets or, God forbid, has an OW and is setting aside money for THEIR future
or is just being really selfish and wants to sell hotdogs on the beach and give you a % of THAT income, you need to protect yourself.
I would go see a L and not say a word about it to him OR YOUR MC, Until if and when you must. If you feel compelled to tell her (why?) then say you "got some useful information" and leave it at that.
I found it so empowering to know that I was not going to lose our house or have to move the kids til the oldest d had finished high school. I also learned that h was going to have to pay a lot more than either of us knew.
So frankly, I was more than relieved...and when HE finally saw a lawyer he started stepping back from his "mission" b/c oops it might cost too much. I think it was a cold splash of water in his face. That was some "reality therapy."
I'm really confused as to why your mc would 1) effectively give you LEGAL advice now...
and 2) tell you not to see a L, but to move on otherwise.
That's backwards.
The ONE piece of advice that is safe in nearly all situations is to see a L and get information. Not to necessarily TELL ANYONE but to see one.
Knowledge is power. IF You do see a L, I say you do not tell your mc. Won't she be obligated to tell your h or does she play a "Keeping SOME secrets" game?
Frankly, I don't trust that saving your marriage is her goal.
( Your mc is beginning to remind me of the MC on First Wives Club.)
[/b]
I worry about switching because my husband it totally on board with going to her.
sure he's on board- b/c she is enabling him to go on his merry way! He feels no remorse and she doesn't get him to even second guess about his own happiness down the road, when the reality of the mess HE will have created, hits him.
At this point, since he wants a D ( so he says) I think if I wanted to switch he may quit going.
THEN WHAT ARE YOU LOSING?? Newsflash, things are not going well in the mc sessions...she's not even slowing him down...do you get that?
We see her together for 2 hours every Monday, I see her for 2 hours every Tuesday and he does an hour during lunch on Wednesday. This has been since January. I think for now I will let her work on my childhood stuff and get my support for the marriage here with my follow DBers, my coach, my friends and myself.
well, I sure would not expect any improvement in the marriage BECAUSE of her.
I am finding a lot of strength in everyone's stories, thanks for posting them so honestly.
Goodnight
you are welcome! Good luck and keeping on keeping on.
ok, I will make an appointment with a L today. I pretty much know what she will say, my best friend just filed and I went with her to her first appointment (3 hours long). I have always been in charge of our finances, so he can't really hide anything from me at this point.
This ^^^ was perfect. Now back off telling him what else he "Should" do (or you'll be "shoulding all over him", a funny phrase but it makes a point).
ok, noted on the "shoulding", thanks.
( Your mc is beginning to remind me of the MC on First Wives Club.)
Is this good? Should I watch it? Need a good laugh today
The happier you seem (within reason) the more he'll wonder if this might just be HIM after all...
I keep trying to remind myself of that.
Thanks again:)
Venting:
Ok, so I am really busting out all my newly acquired DB skills, but I am really struggling right now! I was calm and cool this morning when my husband and the father of our children informed me that he got a place with a lease that starts next weekend. Not only is it 20 minutes from here and by the beach (he said he will always live 5 minutes away so he can be here in minutes in case of emergency), it is a 3 bedroom place that is about 1,000 over the budget we talked about. The lease starts next Saturday. Here are our emails from this am, please help me decipher....
(I changed names to brother or therapist )
My email after him tells me he got the place:
[color:#FF99FF]Ok. I would like to talk it over together with Therapist, the timing of things. We need to tell the kids & our professional aquantiences but I would like to discuss timing. I have been strong for the kids, myself and My brother. ( My brother was crying the night D2 was hitting her head on the floor screaming Daddy). Therapist told me that I will be the one that determines how the kids handle this. My mood will determine the mood of the house, for everyone living there, so I am trying my best to make a place of peace and love. Yes, they will definitely be negatively affected, that is not disputed in the studies. But they can learn resilience and self love from me, they will learn how to handle adversity from me, and that is my focus now. I am strong, but I am human. I have emotions and they are still raw. I thought things were fine until March 14th, less than a month ago. According to Therapist you have been emotionally checked out for quite some time, so this is much easier for you. So I want the timing of telling the kids and the "world" to be just right so I can stay the strong, consistent Mommy the kids need.
Thanks.[/color]
Husband's email:
Just because I got a place does not mean we have to do this right away. We can take time and ease into this. You are an amazing woman. And you are being very very strong.
I am glad we can discuss this and figure out what is best for you and the kids. I think your ideas are correct on timing and telling them. Thank you for being so strong.
My reply to him:
[color:#FF9900]I just transferred the money for you, it will be in the wells account tomorrow. I don't like the thought of so much wasted money, so I think that you should move as soon as it's your place. We will be fine. That way I have my brother here for a bit to help me through the transition to single parenting. He leaves when the kids and I are in Hawaii and doesn't get back until the middle of June. Do you need some moving boxes? I can order you a set from costco. We will talk to Therapist on Monday about telling the kids since you are moving next Saturday. I am also doing some of my on research on the subject. Now is when I don't feel strong, when I think of their little faces:([/color]
[/color]
His reply:
I am very sad. I dont want to move next saturday. I will be in las vegas anyways. I am planning on seeing friend and spending time with my parents. this is hard for them as well.
I think we can plan on after you get back. I will just start to move things from the garage they dont know about and get it ready.
I dont feel strong right now either. i dont think we should tell them until we can do it in a good way. Lets talk to Therapist.
I am hurting too. I am sorry.
OK- anybody? Anyone? Am I handling this right? I would love a male perspective on what he is writing. This feels like a bad dream.
Thanks
what's with helping him to move? Why not simply express surprise that he'd go over the amount you both supposedly agreed upon? (AND see the L asap before he spends even more. If the debt gets split that means half of the over spending will be on you...gee, kinda-makes you want to get a flatscreen...
WHy would YOU order boxes for him? Although I get that you want to be strong, do not aid him in leaving you and your children. Plus it sure lets him off the hook. LET HIM FACE the music...
I am not sure about this next comment but this is how it strikes me at the moment-- stop telling him that thanks to YOU the kids will be fine...
Despite him, you and the kids will be fine down the road. But he is doing some damage for sure.
The upside is that if your choices are liviing with a man like this and acting like this, the rest of your life
or building a new happier more balanced life, w/the possibility of a smart strong man in the future -OR NOT- then yes you sure will be better off.
ANd that is all up to you, not your h.
So be strong but don't tell him about it. Remember the 37 "rules" and that you have had an awakening--
you will be fine no matter what HE does. HE does not decide your mood tonight or happiness tomorrow or how your life goes.
YOU DO. You are in charge of your happiness.
I didn't get why the increased cost made you want him out sooner-b/c it's irritating? I get that...
Oh the marriage counselor on The First Wives Club (the movie itself is hilarious and empowering for women w/a great ending) but the "marriage counselor" was the OW of one of the wive's h's...and she "counselled the both"...
I was being sarcastic, sorry!
Back to earth-
Let him make his big boy choices and move out on his own but see a L asap. He is already spending more than you two can afford (Plus HIS legal fees and yours)
so if I were him (but rational) I would not sign a long term lease b/c SOON you will be getting a chunk of that paycheck and he needs to adapt to that reality. The sooner, the better.
That's the one downside of women handling finances--the WAHs always think there's more than there is...for THEM...
I'd also expect him to plan more fun trips for himself and his buddies & spending like it's not a problem. Many of his buddies will be older losers who are thrice divorced OR fun, single and younger. Ironically, he may notice that a lot of them are looking for what he just left behind...
((( )))
I'd also expect him to plan more fun trips for himself and his buddies & spending like it's not a problem. Many of his buddies will be older losers who are thrice divorced OR fun, single and younger. Ironically, he may notice that a lot of them are looking for what he just left behind...
Just wanted to say that 25 is right on the money as always. This is my H exactly!
Thanks, 25. Having a really sad afternoon. My DB coach told me to offer to order him boxes. I don't know what to do, today I am so sad.
Had a DB meltdown. I guess I shouldn't have accepted that glass of wine from my neighbor. Maybe the Laura Munson book did give me too much hope. H signed the lease today, starting next weekend. I lost it with him on the phone, started crying. Told him I would see him in court, and they were my kids not his. I don't think I am as strong as some of you, making it all this time and staying calm. I am crying and feeling sad and sorry for myself. I just want to give up.
Ok, feeling a little more stable at the moment. Re-read all the advice posts from everyone a few times. Thanks again for those. My best friend of 25 years is here, I also called her that night when I was so upset and she flew here. We are going to go shopping today, looking for things to make the house pretty, we just moved in last October and hadn't really even gotten settled. With H moving out next week I want to make it as cozy and welcoming as possible for the kids and I.
H is talking with the kids but ignoring me, but I am showing no reaction.
Hope everyone has a great weekend
I'm glad your friend is there with you, that will help to have the added support. Making some changes around the house will be good too. I did the same thing and so glad I did. Hang in there!!
Thanks Autumn:) Have a great weekend!
Thanks Autumn:) Have a great weekend!
Journaling:
Having so much anxiety today, trying to keep reminding myself to breathe. In, out, in, out. Meeting with MC for 2 hours to have some coaching on how to tell our children my husband is moving this weekend. After that I am meeting with a lawyer to find out my rights, my best friend is going with me. He has filed nothing and I plan to file nothing but it still seems surreal to be having this day. 5 weeks ago I would have told you never in a million years......
We had our session with our MC to go over telling the kids H is moving out. She actually suggested that he do a staggered move, so they can digest it in little bits. H and I were both receptive to the idea, we are going to be alternating nights spending time with them but both being "around". Then he wants to drive to his place when they go to sleep. All in all it went well, but H said at one point that he felt I was being "controlling" during this process. I resisted the urge to get angry and say "Seriously, you are leaving your family when you still have a child in diapers and I am controlling???" But I took a deep breath and asked the MC if she saw it that way, she said that she sees me feeling like I have no control. Anybody have any thoughts on this?
Appt with the lawyer went well, she just gave me lots of info. I let her know that I didn't want to file, just to to gather info.
When I got home I watched H out the window for awhile interacting with the kids, and he actually seems happier than he has in a long time. This confuses me.....
Thanks for the tip on Paul Hegstrom. Watched his Symptoms video on YouTube and I think my husbands issue are somewhat explained by this. My husbands estranged father died this fall and he changed after. I know there is a connection between him suddenly becoming a WAS and the death. The video talks about some addictions as being an escape from adulthood. My husband was watching online porn a lot in the past months leading up to our seperation. I think this was his escape.
Wish I had found this post earlier. I keep trying to think the way you are Nemo- but I am lonely and lots of time for bad thoughts to creep in. I asked my husband to leave completely 2.5 weeks ago and haven't seen him since. He is living with his mother but I keep wondering if he is really there each night, especially on weekends.
This also seems to be the script my husband used- but he is only 30. Can one have a MLC at 30? Though he is not in his midlife I think his fathers estrangement forced him to be the "man of the house" at a younger age- so could he be only 30 but mentally thinking he's older because he had to be responsible for more at a young age?
Ok, today is a sad day. Some days I feel strong, then days like today hit. My S4's teacher approached me after school to find out what is going on because he is acting out so much. I didn't know what to say, my husband still doesn't want anyone to know until he actually moves. I tried to take my son on a date but he acted out the whole time we were at the restaurant.
I try to do my 180"s and act "as if" with my H around but I am so sad about what my kids are going through that I started crying in front of him tonight. I said that I feel so sad and divorce is against my morals. He didn't really respond to me at all, just went in the other room to start talking to S4. Now I feel like a fool who has the DB info but I can't seem to get it together and use it.
it takes a lot of practice.
The one good thing with him gone is that you will find it easier to detach so that you CAN really wrap your head around this approach
without all the tension and emotion of him being in your face and yet leaving...
you can focus on you.
AT this point your m is like a plane that is having trouble flying
so make sure you are putting the Oxygen mask on YOUR face first so that THEN you can be there for your kids and others who may need help (like h)
You get that?
Take care of you now. Simple stuff gets forgotten, like eating right, sleeping enough, the healing power of hot water (a bath!) and actually having an adult conversation NOT about h, and NOT WITH H...
and not obsessing non-stop about the situation
or taking the temperature of the R all the time.
He needs a lot of space. Frankly so do you.
You want it to hit him that HE is the one who will miss the most and lose the most,
when it's all said and done...and he can't realize that if you keep pleading b/c that makes him more uncomfortable and wanting to flee...
and makes YOU clingy and needy which is Not attractive. Stop the pursuit.
& hang in there! IT does get better.
I agree with 25yrs- I have made so much progress with myself and my beliefs of this situation and my part in it without my husband living here. He had me believing his thoughts/ memories on our marriage. Then I woke up and was feeling brainwashed. Regardless of what happens, I enjoyed the last 7 years of my life with him and will not let him take that and those memories away from me. My counselor explained it well- she said in his instability he is like a top spinning and I was watching and getting dizzy. Now he is gone and I cannot watch and am no longer dizzy. I think/ hope once he moves out you can focus on you and really be able to DB. I'm lonely at night without him here (no kids)- but I'd way rather be lonely and read or watch tv or talk on the phone then spend my nights engulfed in tension and walking on eggshells. I hope you find the same.
Thanks 25 and Maggie. I appreciate the support. Maggie I was just reading your thread and it sounds similar, my husband's fog started with the terminal diagnosis his father got last November. They are very close. I get the same reaction from my friends and family, even his friends and family. By the way- Boston- you go girl!
Thanks- makes me know I can handle anything he throws my way:)
Are friends aware of your situation? My friends have been a life saver! I had a work friend over tonight who had gone through something horrible with her husband last year ( they have 2 young kids). She told no one. Not family, not friends. I think now only a few of us know (me only bc I told her my story). I can't imagine how she went it alone. I hope you are not either.
I am lucky that way too, I have amazing friends. Some live out of town and have been flying in on alternate weekends to keep me company. I feel so lucky to have them all. I had a friend over for dinner tonight and we had a lot of laughs (while the kids ran around the backyard). Just join a women's only triathlon truing group, starts next Sunday. Good luck and I will be checking on your progress!
Have you checked out the website/book "No more mr. Nice Guy"
Also look into Laura Munsons book "This isnt the season you think it is"
Hi Bklyn Mom,
I saw you suggest that book to someone else and I devoured it in 2 days, thanks for the tip. I will check out no more mr nice guy right now! Thanks!
I just started reading it too! Struggling to get into it but I'll stick with it.
Today was hard. I was at work, and I missed a call from my S4's pre-school. They called my H instead and he went to pick him up because he had thrown up at school. They said he didn't have a temp but said he felt sick. My H said that after he picked him up he was asking how long he had felt sick and my S4 said I am not sick I am sad.
We haven't had the talk with them about my H moving yet, so my H says "I am sure he just feels your negative energy". I can't believe this is the same man I have been married to for 10 years. Have I had blinders on this whole time?
I am so sad for my kids, they deserve better than this.
Your H is such a a$$. But its exactly the same thing my H would say.
You need to ignore their irrational and insane comments. Time is on our side. Your H thinks your S sadness is a passing phase. Time will show him otherwise. Each drop off and pick off will have some degree of sadness. Children will always ask for Mommy & Daddy.
I know its hard to swallow that he is not gonna wake up soon but take the high road. Let him look like a fool.
Thanks, I just ordered the Mr. nice guy book to my kindle, will start it tonight after they go to bed. I see your day was rough too, you are a bit ahead of me so I am gaining inspiration from your non-reactiveness. I felt like you did, like this fake family thing may make it easier for them which I don't want but I know it's better for the kids. Here's to better days ahead!
He's not the same man you married, remember that. Your kids and you deserve to be treated better- keep staying strong and try to find the little positive moments in your day and focus on those.
Fifi,
Wow, I haven't posted to anyone with advice in a really long time, so forgive me for being rusty.
So... why not take a new tact with your son? Can you ask your H to let your son help him move? My oldest was 8 when her dad moved out, so I had him ask her to help him so that she understood that she had a place with him and to let her feel part of that process. It helped... especially if you are going to be splitting parenting time. Help your son realize that dad's place is also his home.
I said that I feel so sad and divorce is against my morals.
Well, dear, you're going to have to stop making statements like that around him. It smacks of being all about you, and you can pretty much predict how he feels about that, right?
If you have difficulty using all the DB skills presented, choose one big one and own it. Are you the kind of person who just spouts out whatever you're thinking? Then invoke a 24 hour rule and stick to it. Are you the kind of person who has to be right? Then work on your skills in ceasing pointing that out to him and others. Do you continually emotionally vomit on others? Then work on contingency plans to do that in safe places and with safe people. Do you operate by the seat of your pants in pretty much everything you do? Then make a list of rules of engagement and stick to them... as long as the list is fairly short and simple.
Get it? Do a 180 on your worst behavior or at a minimum, the one your H throws at you the most often. Work on *showing* him that you are committed to changing what he dislikes the most in you.
BTW, this does not mean that he doesn't bear responsibility for the condition of his side of the street. But you can't control what's going on over there - only what's going on with yours.
I did read that your H is P/A. My XH is too. This is probably a learned coping behavior from his childhood. Only he can cure it. But I mimized its ugly head when I *could* help. In situations where I knew he would say one thing but think another and probably act on that, upfront I gave him permission to disagree with me. For example, if I asked him to take one of our kids to a birthday party, and in the past he would say yes but not act on it... I rephrased how I asked for a favor. "H, it's okay if you say no, but I've got XXX going on and I'm wondering if you would be able to take son to a birthday party on Saturday?" When I deliberately invoked the concept of a choice ('cause they truly believe that you force them), he realized that he could choose to say no. It took time to make good headway here, but I really worked on it, and then I thanked him (without pointing out a changing behavior) for choosing to keep his word. This also means that you can't punish him for saying no. That's *YOUR* choice, right?
Does this make sense?
Your H is on to something with assigning your S4's anxiety to your reactions. Try not to own all of it, but if your S4 sees you wrapped around the flag pole, chances are good he's going to follow you. So put your big girl panties on and work on being neutral in front of your S4. If you're okay, he's going to see that and act accordingly too.
I'll put a reminder to come back and check on you. I don't come around very often here (mostly to see old friends) and with my D18 graduating in a few weeks, things are a little crazy right now.
Take care--
Betsey
Underdog, thanks for giving me food for thought.
So... why not take a new tact with your son? Can you ask your H to let your son help him move? My oldest was 8 when her dad moved out, so I had him ask her to help him so that she understood that she had a place with him and to let her feel part of that process. It helped... especially if you are going to be splitting parenting time. Help your son realize that dad's place is also his home.
[color:#FF6666] I am open to any and all suggestions about how to help my S4 though this. My MC (both of our IC) has suggested that she doesn't want the kids to see his new place, it would be easier if all of his visits with him are at our house. This is the exact opposite of the advice she gave my girlfriend who sees her as an IC. She said the sooner the kids she her ExH new place the better. If I am being honest I hope it means that there is hope for us long term.
Are you the kind of person who just spouts out whatever you're thinking?[/quote]
Guilty as charged. I am working on this with my IC. I have been doing much better in the past 5 days. Doesn't sound like long but hey it's a start.
[quote]Get it? Do a 180 on your worst behavior or at a minimum, the one your H throws at you the most often. Work on *showing* him that you are committed to changing what he dislikes the most in you.[/quote
He would 100% say that my biggest issue is control. I have taken control of some things (house, kids stuff, social planning) . He is passive aggressive so in our major life decisions I feel like he gets his way a lot (i.e. our current situation). So I will work on control, this gets easier for me as I am detaching.
[quote]
When I deliberately invoked the concept of a choice ('cause they truly believe that you force them), he realized that he could choose to say no.
Thanks for your post, I read your bio on the vets forum, sounds like you really lived the principles and continue to do so
I think that I am s-l-o-w-l-y starting to catch onto DB. The past few days have been better. I am still sad, acknowledging that to myself and my close friends, but I am starting to do a few things I thought I would never be able to accomplish.
Detachment.
It feels surreal, to detach. I know I am only supposed to believe 50% of what they do and none of what they say. The the facts are that he consulted a lawyer and signed a 1 year lease that started last weekend. He describes being so unhappy because of me. I want a partner, not a prisoner. Detachment has come to me in the past few days much easier than I ever expected. I hope it is a gift from a higher power, not just a passing phase.
180's
1. Don't control, or anything that resembles it.
2. Don't manipulate with guilt. This hasn't worked so far, it just makes him push me further away.
3. Try to give him compliments on what he does well, instead of pointing out what is wrong with things he does/ says.
4. Don't react to harsh words/ statements with "overly emotional" responses.
Ok, I think that's enough homework for me for now.
A quick update on my current sitch is that he picked up the keys tonight for his new place. We are having a 2 hour session with our C tomorrow to decide on the best timing for the move, that will make the easiest transition for the kids. He has texted me a few times that he is sad, I am not sure how to respond. I usually say something like "it's a sad situation, thanks for letting me know how you are feeling" ( That is a 180 for him).
The old me would have just pushed to get him out asap to ease my anxiety. It has been hard to have him here in body but not mind and spirit. I am going to practice my 180's tomorrow during my session, and not control the timing of the decisions.
If anyone has any other advice for tomorrows C session please share!
Thanks
Hi there Fifi,
(Sorry, I like acronyms and something tells me that you are so not a Fifi in real life...
)
I was a little surprised that your IC gave you and your friend completely opposite advice. What's up with that? Well, you have to do whatever YOU feel is best for your son. That's it in a nutshell.
On your first reply... something I learned in my MC with my ex. I was guilty of the same thing, was charged with the same offenses and in my way of thinking, because he *didn't* take control, weelllll...... someone had to, right? And damn it, that was me!
But what if... what if... you decided just once NOT to be in control? Do you think that they'd fall apart if you didn't? Well, maybe. But maybe not. Maybe control is your way of enabling. Maybe control is your way of pretending that having it means you have your sh!t together. But maybe control is an illusion. Chew on that for a bit. Find out (at least in your head) why you feel you HAVE to have control. That's usually an inside job, and only you know the answer. My own was based on a wacked out version of the chaos theory. If I had control, I could fix the problem with my strength, faith and willpower. Unfortunately, it didn't allow for mother nature's intervention or the free will of others.
That was another 2 years in therapy...
So getting back to your 180s. REALLY good work, Fifi. I mean brilliant. You're paying attention to what isn't working. You're learning not to have answers for his musings. Keep going! BTW, I found detachment did come in phases, but once I got the hang of it and became cognizant of my need to be better, it became something I worked at. And it became easier to do once I knew I could achieve it with some attention to the matter.
I really don't want you to give up hope. Leases can be broken. And I personally found it much easier to employ DB methods with my XH living elsewhere. I was happier in my own home, and it gave me every opportunity to make my interactions with him positive and meaningful as I possibly could make them. So try to wrap your head around the thought that his moving out is a GIFT. Yes, that's right... a gift. He's taken a brave step to take control over what he can control (which is very unnatural to a true P/A personality). He will be left with his own thoughts. And an extra cheer for you for not nibbling on that bait with him.
(Actually, I could jump... you got something huge you realized and employed... and it just may be a sticking point with him in future contact with you. You didn't take control of his emotions for him or emotionally vomit on him about how you were feeling. Excellent!)
Try not to get caught up in that statement of believing half of what they do and none of what they say. I do believe in it to a large degree, but when you start assigning weight to what you will believe and hear, it skews things. What I would say is to pay less attention to words that are not followed by action, and more attention to actions that are supported with words. They're telling. And for goodness sake, do not let on that you are analyzing him! (I can promise you from experience that he won't like being some experiment.
)
I won't dispense advice on your C session tomorrow. Undoubtedly, whatever you need to discuss will take center stage there. Go with it.
And I really liked that you recognize you don't want to be married to a prisoner. Wish I had thought of that line myself... I did know that I hated focusing on the one person in my life who thought I was a complete biatch, when there were dozens who thought I was a good person. Eventually, I learned to let go of his projections and self directed musings that he vomited on me. It just took time.
So, the moderators here used to tell us that what we focus on expands. That was undoubtedly the best observation I ever received here. As long as you focus on the problem, it just gets bigger billing in your life. If you focus on you and YOUR life, that will also take center stage.
Drop the rope, let him wallow around in his own pond, and you work on making your pond the most attractive, fun place ever. No matter what he decides to do, you will gain from replacing his name on the marquee with your own. Don't you totally deserve that?
Good luck tomorrow!
Betsey
I did know that I hated focusing on the one person in my life who thought I was a complete biatch, when there were dozens who thought I was a good person. Eventually, I learned to let go of his projections and self directed musings that he vomited on me. It just took time.
I like this Underdog!