I thought it was time to start a new thread as things are changing in my sitch as I change.
here's a link to my 1st part
I didn't see it coming part 1 Well I'm glad to say that I passed my 1st real test of detaching. Instead of worrying about what my W was doing last night I did some reading on the DB book.
My W even came home early last night, we talked and it was nice. I asked her if she'd caught up with her steps and how her friends were all doing. There was absolutely none of me feeling or acting like a victim & there hasn't been since Sunday.
This morning I was really comfortable talking to my W about her dancing (neither of us mentioned OM). Her friend called round so they could go out for coffee, while W was getting ready I made her friend feel welcome & was having a laugh & a joke about dancing with her, which my W joined in for about 5 mins before they left. I wished them a good time & said I'd see my W later for S6 Easter service.
I am proud of myself for my behaviour & positive attitude this week. I am going to continue to build on this & not get drawn into any more R talk for a good while yet.
I feel so much better, I'm sleeping and eating well again, taking exercise, dressing well and keeping busy. This week I've noticed girls 10 years younger than me giving me that second look & even caught a couple who gave me a shy smile. That was a real shot in the arm confidence wise.
I'm just about to go for a run & then do some more UNI work, today is a good day, I'm going to make the most of it.
Thank you DB'rs for keeping my spirits up these past few weeks. I owe you big time!!
Bill
Journal entry
Well I'm kind of at a loss as to how I'm feeling today. I totally got the wrong impression from my W that she wanted to work things out & take them slowly.
We had a talk & she said that she's very happy with the way I have been since Sunday, that I seem so much happier, healthier and attractive and that I'm fun to be around. Then she said that emotionally she just isn't there at all & to not get my hopes up, because we'd been having lots of sex lately.
I said that I misread the situation and that I respect how you feel right now and that it's probably best if we don't discuss anything more about our R until I finish my course in May, when we can work out what we want to do next.
I'm not letting it bother me too much, because to be fair I am cake eating right now. But when the time comes if that's what she still wants, to be separated and see how that works out I will have to respect that wish.
If it's meant to be we'll get back together someday. The way I'm rationalising this in my head is that, before we were together me & my W had other partners, plus this R is no longer exclusive (hence the affair). Because if we do separate we will be seeing other people, that's the reality of it. Yeah the thought of my W with another man is not something I would hope for, but sometimes you just have to face up to reality and accept these things.
My W, to me will always be the mother of my children, a great friend, lover and companion.
Whatever happens I will make sure I'm the best DAD and the best ME that I can be.
I've been running quite a bit lately and eating better & I'm down to 180lb's which is pretty good for someone who's 6 "1. I feel great about myself physically, I'm communicating better with friends, family and my confidence is back. If I do get the gift of time from my W & we separate, I'm going to enjoy my time as a single guy. I've been with my beautiful W for 12 years and have completely forgotten what it's like to be single.
I guess what I'm saying is that I'm at a cross roads right now, but I'm enjoying this stage too. My W and I are having the best sex of our R, we get along so much better and sometimes I have to pinch myself & say we're not together, but I'm loving the way we are, when we are together.
I don't know what the next chapter in my life will be, but I do know that there will be a next chapter.
Bill
Journal Entry
Well I had my counselling session today and it went really well. The guy who's counselling me is really nice and I feel so comfortable sharing how I feel with him.
How am I feeling today? I feel good, I feel like I'm learning so much about myself and I can't believe how far I have come in 9 days since I last cried. I look forward to every day, I have somehow managed to stop feeling guilty and blame myself for my R problems. I am completely focused on the here and now and ME. I feel so in tune with myself, and ready for whatever comes at me.
I feel like it could go either way with my M, and there has been so many positives this week in how me and my W have interacted. I've come to terms with the fact that my W might just need a break (permanent,temporary who knows) from being in a 12 year relationship. It would probably do both of us the world of good, but the 2 small people in our lives would definitely disagree.
I guess I'm saying that I'm in a much better place, physically and psychologically since the bomb (s) and, I am starting to love life and myself again. I am not living my life in the past or on eggshells anymore.
Today I walk tall, out of my shadow and open to the light that will show me the path to happiness.
Bill
Did she actually tell you she wanted to work on the R and go slowly, or is that what you said?
So I kind of validated this & probed by saying, 'I realise now just how broken our R had become & that all's I wanted right now was to build our R slowly brick by brick, without any pressure or outside influence. I said that I wasn't ready to be full on & jump back into our R and that I'd like to take babysteps & take it slowly. My W seemed really happy about this and later on she flirted with me in bed & we made love. (YC the kissing was amazing, so much desire on both sides for each other).
Maybe you assumed she agreed with you? Maybe I missed it. At any rate, don't let your feelings lead you down this road only to be disappointed again, b/c you will read too much into what she says or doesn't say.
Did she actually tell you she wanted to work on the R and go slowly, or is that what you said?
[color:#000099][/color]
she said that's what she wanted, but she might have meant past tense.
Maybe you assumed she agreed with you? Maybe I missed it. At any rate, don't let your feelings lead you down this road only to be disappointed again, b/c you will read too much into what she says or doesn't say.
Good advice, and to be fair I handled it well and just brushed it off as a misunderstanding (no sour grapes on my part).
Hi Sandi
Thanks for the advice, I haven't got my hopes up anymore about our R. I'm just living it day by day and I feel so much better for not feeling any guilt or pressure to make our M work at the moment. We are getting on so much better lately, my W even cooked a roast on Monday and did some cleaning (it's been months since she did any cleaning) and last night she made butterfly biscuits with the kids. So I'm happy that she's engaging more with the kids and starting to do her share around the house. There isn't any atmosphere between us, we talk loads and are still physically attracted to each other and have been ML frequently.
If we go ahead and separate after my course finishes next month, we'll do so on good terms. I feel at peace with it all at the moment, because either way I can see positives in working it out slowly or taking some time out to give each other space.
I feel a lot stronger to get through this since I started my counselling. I feel a lot more secure about who I am and what I want now.
Bill
Journal entry
I have to say that I've had a good last couple of days & that there seems to be absolutely no pressure or anxiety between me and my W.
Yesterday my W was very flirty prior to going out dancing & initiated ML last night when she got back. Then today my W invites me to go out for a walk on the beach with the kids, which was so much fun and we even held hands for a while & joked with the little guys together. Then this evening my wife makes Macaroni Cheese for dinner (Good Friday) & we all sat and ate as a family.
Without reading too much into this, I think there are some positive signs that my 180's are starting to pay off.
I just try to make the family time and time I have alone with my W as special as I can make it & I really appreciate & enjoy what I have more now. I realise that I may still ultimately lose my W, but if I do I won't have feelings of resentment, I'll have happy memories of the past and of how we've been getting on lately.
The time for talking R will come again sooner or later, but things sure are a lot easier when you don't talk about R stuff & you just do positive things. Right now, I just want things to take their course naturally without any pressure and just enjoy life.
Whatever happens I know it'll be OK, some of you guys are living proof & that's encouragement enough for me.
Bill
Hi Bill - It doesn't look like you will be losing your wife anytime soon! If she is initiating ML that is an excellent sign!! That you are having fun together and just enjoying each other's company is a fantastic development.
So, what 180's were you doing? Something in her has clicked, and I'm just curious as to when that might have happened. I'm almost convinced it was the time with you on the phone with your sis. I could be wrong, but that seemed to be the starting point, of her saying, "This man has balls," and she looked for other supporting evidence and you clearly stepped up to the plate.
Keep doing whatever you are doing. It is working.
Hey YC
Thanks for your nice comments. Yeah things are going good at the moment, but I'm not taking anything for granted, just simply taking one day at a time. I try and make sure at least 1 positive thing in our interaction happens everyday. This is sometimes hard without pursuing, but because I was distant in our R, my 180's do involve a measure of pursuit (but not like the earlier stages of my sitch when I was behaving like a desperado!! - you know needing to feel loads of affection, wanting to spend every waking minute with my W). My W was right to push me away ( WTF was I thinking?)
180's
1. I never used to be supportive with my W getting up in the morning for work, now every morning I bring up some breakfast & a cup of tea & iron her clothes whilst I get the kids ready for school.
2. I make sure I ask about my wife's day & show that I have been listening, by asking how her friends have been, reference stuff to other past coversations about her work. You know, just listening & when talking making sure I'm engaging with what we are talking about, having a joke about stuff.
3. Looking after myself more, eating better, running, lost about 20lbs since the bomb, dressing better (smart casual - most of the time), wearing nice aftershave, shaving every other day, going somewhere different to get my hair done.
4. Working on my confidence and assertiveness. I answer questions with conviction, now, not rudely - but I feel like I can make a decision without giving a s*@t. That sounds awful, but it works.
For example, a conversation in the past between me and my W. W: What shall we have for dinner? Me: I'm not bothered, I'll eat anything, I'm starving. W: Yeah I know, but what do you want? Me: Whatever you feel like I'll eat it etc..
Now: Same question W: What shall we have for dinner? Me: I fancy a nice Chilli, I'll make it if you like?
W: Ooh yeah, I love your chilli Me: Yeah, you do!!
5. Paying compliments, I must compliment my W on her hair & make up & figure every day now. But I don't waste these compliments, I make sure there is a bit of flirting on my part going on. Then when it comes to going to bed, I can go back to the earlier flirting / compliments. This has led to lots of ML, so physically I think things are much better now.
6. Communicating better with my W and kids & other family & friends. This is really good for me & I feel like I'm standing up for myself when in the past I would have been much more passive & just let people say / do what they wanted, instead of engaging in the conversation and putting forward what I wanted.
7. Forgetting my sitch, sounds weird but seriously how much effort do we put into worrying about what might happen & if only I had done this or not said that. I just tell myself that I've started a new R with my W. It has helped me loads in terms of dealing with anxiety about OM and what my WAW is thinking. I don't snoop anymore, I act like I trust my W 100%, because I do, I trust her to do whatever she wants to do. If she wants to leave our M, have a separation, have an affair - then that is her choice. Worrying about that is not only not going to change these scenarios from possibly happening, it will probably make them a realisation. I have a strict NO PRESSURE policy on our fragile R, and see this stage as laying solid foundations for possibly a better M, but definitely a better R and friendship.
8. Taking things slow (emotionally). What I mean by that is not trying to force anything, you know anything that would feel like a date (that would be pressure at the moment). It is better at this present time to only do things together outside of the home as a family. This takes away all the pressure, but leaves the window open for progress in small doses. Talking, having fun, this Friday we held hands on the beach whilst we watched the kids play, which was a big, big improvement.
9. Absolutely no talk about our M or the OM. (she said it was over with the OM & come to think of it with me as well ;-) so I can't see any benefit for me in thinking or talking about it).
10. Projecting an image of happiness & contentment, I am a lot happier, but the whole making other people around you feel at ease by being fun to be with is so simple and it works. It works because if you are happy it rubs off on your S and you have this cycle of good feeling going on.
Well these are my 180's and I'm happy with these and myself right now, I've got a long way to go on my journey. I'm still going to individual counselling and growing as a person. I just want to be happy & be a good Dad, IF I win my W's heart back as well, then that will be the icing on the cake. However, as we all know on here IF is the biggest 2 letter word going and it's better to have low or no expectations, than deluded high hopes of a Hollywood ending.
Bill
Bill,
These aren't 180's...they are 360's!!! Soooo happy for you and congratulations on all the progress you are making.
I have been doing some backsliding lately, but you are an inspiration. I shall now get back on track.
Particularly inspired when you said:
"Forgetting my sitch, sounds weird but seriously how much effort do we put into worrying about what might happen & if only I had done this or not said that. I just tell myself that I've started a new R with my W. It has helped me loads in terms of dealing with anxiety about OM and what my WAW is thinking. I don't snoop anymore, I act like I trust my W 100%, because I do, I trust her to do whatever she wants to do. If she wants to leave our M, have a separation, have an affair - then that is her choice. Worrying about that is not only not going to change these scenarios from possibly happening, it will probably make them a realisation. I have a strict NO PRESSURE policy on our fragile R, and see this stage as laying solid foundations for possibly a better M, but definitely a better R and friendship."
Thank you!
YC
Ah thanks for telling me all that. Try not to worry about backsliding too much, you are doing so good with your GAL!!!
I think the big turning point for me was the text message my W sent about possibly not going on the holiday (vacation) with me & the kids in June. It was like a real slap in the face, you know when someone tells you to snap out of it. I realised and accepted the fact that my W is / was ? so unhappy being with me, that she didn't want to go on the holiday of a lifetime for our children. I was a mess on that day, but when I woke up the next morning - I really woke up to my situation & started to address some of the things in my life that I am not happy with.
As much as I love my W and want to save my M, I can only do so much & this still might not be enough to convince my W to give it another go in the future. But you know what, this is OK, because I know I'll find happiness either way. These changes are not for my W, these are for ME and this is my choice and nobody else's.
Bill
YC
Ah thanks for telling me all that. Try not to worry about backsliding too much, you are doing so good with your GAL!!!
Thank you! Yes,, GAL has been easy for me thank goodness
As much as I love my W and want to save my M, I can only do so much & this still might not be enough to convince my W to give it another go in the future. But you know what, this is OK, because I know I'll find happiness either way. These changes are not for my W, these are for ME and this is my choice and nobody else's.
Bill
Well said! I think I am getting to that realisation too - that it's more for me than anything else. I feel I am giving myself more options with that attitude, and again, I'm ever so grateful for everyone sharing their experiences here.
Thanks!
Thanks YC
What the experienced people on this forum have been saying about doing these changes for yourself is the only way to make these changes real. I don't want the old me back either ;-) Me and the W agree on that one at least!!
Bill
Journal Entry
I thought I'd update my journal with some deveopments on my sitch.
Well firstly I am feeling really positive with the way things are going between me and my W. The flirting & the ML has been really good and very frequent. We talk so much more now about day to day stuff my W's work & friends and the kids and we get on so much better (laughing & joking).
Tonight my W said something that gave me some hope (don't worry I'm not going to go overboard) that we might not be separating. Her brother is getting married @ the end of July & tonight for the first time she talked about it and said to me, 'We'll need to take a lot of money with us, especially with 4 of us going to the wedding'. Now it might just be keeping up appearances or for the kid's benefit, but making plans to go somewhere as a family together 3 months away? My W brought it up, so it made me think - oh that's positive? Definitely not a bad sign right?
I'm not getting my hopes up too much, but I am encouraged by the way things are going. If my W doesn't want to be with me anymore, she sure has got a funny way of showing it ;-)
Bill
Hey just a quick question,
My W stopped wearing her engagement & wedding rings about 3 weeks ago. At first this bothered me quite a lot & I got upset, but I don't want to mention it to my W & only want her to wear the rings if she wants to.
This is the right thing to do isn't it not say anything about this as it will be pressure or pursuing?
I still wear my wedding ring, just wanted to check if anyone else has / had experienced this in their sitch & how they dealt with it.
Thanks Bill
I agree 100%. Don't act as if you noticed anything about the rings.
My H stopped wearing his years ago (lots of people don't wear them, they got in the way when he worked out, etc), but there are lots of others here whose WASs took them off as a sort of statement. Doesn't matter why; the best thing is to not take the bait.
Hey thanks Adinva
I needed to hear that. I'm glad you agree it's not worth taking the bait on. I believe it is definitely a statement on her part. Maybe it's helping her deal with what she's doing, not wearing them, makes her not feel married and free to do what she wants. Maybe it's that, because she absolutely loves jewellery and these rings are not the original ones, we got broken into before Christmas and my W forgot to put her rings on, so we had to get new ones and the engagement ring she picked was more expensive and she was showing it off to everyone when she got it. So it's not a practical thing, more of a statement.
Thanks Adinva for that, how's the new dog settling in?
Bill
My H took his off 2 years ago and never put it back on. I did originally say something about that when we reconciled for 6 months, but he still wouldn't put it on. I got all kinds of stupid excuses.
From 1 January this year, I took mine off too.
He definitely noticed, and looks at my hand every time I see him.
It's weird that something so little (not wearing a ring) can make such a big statement. I'm not ready to take mine off yet, (I like wearing my wedding ring) I'd like my W to wear hers again, but I'm not going to bring it up, it's a personal choice & right now - she's chosen not to wear them.
I think I'll know when to stop wearing mine.
Thanks
Bill
Journal Entry
Its been a few days since I posted anything on my thread, so I thought I'd update my journal.
Had a good weekend all in all - my team Liverpool beat Everton to reach the FA cup Final (Soccer). Some of you guys might have heard of our team since that guy John Henry who owns the Boston Red Sox bought it.
I've been getting into the running big time, went out 4 times last week & I feel great for it, started doing some free weights & sit ups as well. So, going great guns with the exercise.
My W, went out on Saturday night on a hen night. I was fine with it, I even dropped her off @ where she was meeting up with her friends & she sent me a few text messages while she was out. I didn't think once, I wonder what she's doing - I was pretty busy doing work on my dissertation 'til about 3am & then after a couple of beers I went to bed. My W woke me up coming in @ 4:50am (pretty early in her book), but I got back to sleep fine.
On Sunday I went the library & did some more study & when I got back the laptop was left on a page showing a spa break deal at a hotel. I said, oh that looks nice, hey good deal!! She said oh yeah, that's where I'm going for my birthday with (insert girl's name here) friend. I never let it show, or said anything but I was a bit peeved at this, because we have a joint account & she just went ahead & booked it (normally when we spend anything big, we talk about it). I don't really care about her plans, that's her business, but I was a bit put out about her not showing the same courtesy we normally show each other. Oh well, I guess this is just a natural progression.
My W initiated sex last night, which was good (it always is), but it's starting to mean less and less to me (emotionally), just a physical need being fulfilled. I think this is due to my detaching, starting to kick in big time.
I'm enjoying UNI a lot more and interacting loads more with my friends on the course. This morning I got picked up by a couple of 21 year old girls to take me there & have been invited to their house party next month :-) I did my presentation today & it went brilliant, I was confident, my jokes were timely & well received & got plenty of smiles of the ladies throughout it. I got some really good feedback, mainly of the girls in my class and from one of my lecturers. I will find out next week how I did.
I went for coffee with my friends afterwards & had a laugh, then on my way out I bumped into a couple of my friends who I hadn't seen in a while, one of them is going to be on my course next year (happy about that).
I feel great at the moment, I'm open to happiness & I feel so much more outgoing & confident. I'm looking forward to the future, whatever happens.
I have realised one thing, for sure on my journey. I don't need someone else to make me happy. I want to keep on enjoying life, my kids & my ME time.
Bill
Hi Bill,
That's great progress you are making there.
It's kind of funny how the tables are turning. At once we were frantic about getting them back, and then as we work on ourselves and get strong, we're like, "Why should I put up with this?" Personally though, I think it's a phase.
It's a phase of indifference to an extent. My H does stupid things like that too. Booking himself here, there and everywhere without so much as a consult. I wonder if they ever snap out of it and realise they are living with another human being?? Basic consideration would be nice, thank you!
I was on the other side of the fence with that scenario too when I separated from my H the first time around. He too began to question why he should put up with my behavior. So, he ends up leaving me and then here we are! This thing could go back and forth for a while, if I let it.
I haven't gotten past this phase just yet (the indifference phase), but I guess I could just see how it goes. What are you planning to do do you think?
I'm in the process of deciding to do what is just right for me and to be sure not to take actions or make decisions based on anger or retaliation. Again, the problem is that it will take a while for them to 'get it'. They haven't been doing much work on themselves this whole time because they have been too busy blaming, arguing, justifying, and allowing themselves to be incredibly distracted. They have catching up to do.
It would be nice to hear from some Vets about what to do when getting back with a S that hasn't done any work, and are still in that whole justifying mode. My fear is that it will take them forever to 'get it' and I will lose my interest.
It's great you had a wonderful day at Uni!!
Hi Bill,
That's great progress you are making there.
Thank you YC I do feel like I'm getting there now.
It's kind of funny how the tables are turning. At once we were frantic about getting them back, and then as we work on ourselves and get strong, we're like, "Why should I put up with this?" Personally though, I think it's a phase.
It's a phase of indifference to an extent. My H does stupid things like that too. Booking himself here, there and everywhere without so much as a consult. I wonder if they ever snap out of it and realise they are living with another human being?? Basic consideration would be nice, thank you!
Exactly, just some common courtesy & a little respect wouldn't go a miss.
I was on the other side of the fence with that scenario too when I separated from my H the first time around. He too began to question why he should put up with my behavior. So, he ends up leaving me and then here we are! This thing could go back and forth for a while, if I let it.
I haven't gotten past this phase just yet (the indifference phase), but I guess I could just see how it goes. What are you planning to do do you think?
If I'm honest, I'm starting to detach big time & prepare myself for moving out - I know that we have agreed to not discuss the next steps until I've finished UNI. But to be honest I'm starting to think that some time apart would be good for me too. I'm going to stay true to myself and whilst we are living together, live my life like a married man, regardless of what she does. If we separate, all bets are off & I will live like a single man in every sense of the word. This won't be an ultimatum to my W in any way, shape or form or me taking any kind of revenge. If I'm separated, I'm single and I can do what I want when I want and with whoever I want. I fully expect my W to do the same & she is probably already doing this anyway.
It's great you had a wonderful day at Uni!!
It was the best day YC - I rocked my presentation out of the park - had fun with my friends and it felt great!!
I think for me, my old relationship with my W is over & I don't think my W is ready or committed to work on what it would take to get through our problems. I'm continuing to overcome my issues & everyday I get stronger and enjoy my life that little bit more. If my W doesn't work on her issues or start to make an effort in rebuilding my trust - I don't think that would be enough for me anymore.
I love her & want my family to stay together, but without that genuine emotional intimacy our relationship is meaningless & a functional one. I need more than that, we all do.
Bill
Hi Bill,
I've read through your story, and while I'm just starting out on my own journey, am impressed with the way that you continue to handle yourself. I myself am going through a similar situation....
W gave me the 'ILYBINILWU' speech 3 weeks ago...a bombshell to say the least.
We're working through it, but like you, I don't know that she'll have that fire for me that she once had. Regardless, your approach to life as it is now is quite inspirational as I begin myself. I've done all of the classic blunders in 3 weeks....pleading, begging, reasoning, snooping....all of it.
Like you, I think I'm finally at a point where I can step back and begin focusing on myself rather than focusing on something I have not control over.
If you have any insight/suggestions on how you completed this transformation, it would be much appreciated.
Had another counselling session today...
when I left my session, I felt a little bit down & that I was shocked by what I was thinking and talking about today. I find it hard to believe that only a few weeks ago I was so down and my whole outlook was dependent on what my W did. I knew I was detaching, but I'm starting to feel a little bit of guilt for not wanting to work on our R right now. I had always said to myself if my W wants a separation then I will accept this wish & move out. Now I'm half expecting a separation and half-looking forward to it.
I feel like a living double standard, how can I say I want things to work out, when I'm considering leaving?
Tonight I was left kind of confused by something my W said. I had told her yesterday that I am going to a house party on the 23rd May (a fortnight after my course finishes) & she says tonight I'll switch my hours, so you don't have to get up and take the kids to school that day.
I might be reading too much into it, but it didn't sound like she was thinking of me moving out by then. It feels like we have just skirted around so many of our issues & not come to any decision of what next steps we both want to take. It feels like Limbo - because that's what it is!!
I know that the R conversation will happen eventually, I've got no idea how it will go, or what outcome I'm going to be rooting for.
I know what our R is missing right now - emotional intimacy, trust & respect. I think without trust and respect as a foundation - emotional intimacy can't be supported or gained in a R.
It's frustrating, because I know things could be great between us, but it's all IF's and BUTS.
Then there's the kids who are gonna end up getting hurt so much by this mess - I hate that more than anything.
Vent over, sorry had to get all that off my chest, right back to the dissertation.
Bill
So why do you have to move out again?
Hi Bond
I guess I don't have to move out really, well it's all hypothetical at the moment. The last time we had an R talk - my W asked me if I would move out to see what it would be like separated. I said to her, 'You are the one who is unhappy, so why don't you leave'? To which she replied, 'If I have to move out, I'm taking the kids with me'. Now I don't know if that is an idle threat or not, but I would feel really low uprooting my kids from their home.
To be fair, I didn't realise 'til now that what she had said, had such an impact on my thinking about moving out.
I think I need to stop thinking about it & just see how it plays out over the next few weeks.
I mean hypothetically if my W still wants separation & was prepared to take the kids away from their home, could you let that happen?
I know what she has said is manipulative, but I don't think I could let the above scenario happen and still sleep at night.
Bill
"To which she replied, 'If I have to move out, I'm taking the kids with me'. "
Don't ever let her threaten you with the children again. If she pulls cr@p like that you have to put your foot down and tell her that she will not use the children as leverage. That it is an issue between you and her and that she will not use the children as pawns. State again that you and the children were not unhappy so you will not be moving.
Don't give in to the fear.
My W did the same thing. Said the same thing. So I told her the same thing that if she was unhappy then she should leave. She moved that day. She also said she would take the kids, so I told her that we would be splitting custody and that I would set the terms. Which she agreed to.
Sometimes you have to remember that you have a pair in your pants and you can't let your W threaten you all the time. Don't live under the guise of fear. If you're afraid of her taking your children, get legal counsel so you have that card in your pocket.
"To which she replied, 'If I have to move out, I'm taking the kids with me'. "
Don't ever let her threaten you with the children again. If she pulls cr@p like that you have to put your foot down and tell her that she will not use the children as leverage. That it is an issue between you and her and that she will not use the children as pawns. State again that you and the children were not unhappy so you will not be moving.
Don't give in to the fear.
My W did the same thing. Said the same thing. So I told her the same thing that if she was unhappy then she should leave. She moved that day. She also said she would take the kids, so I told her that we would be splitting custody and that I would set the terms. Which she agreed to.
Sometimes you have to remember that you have a pair in your pants and you can't let your W threaten you all the time. Don't live under the guise of fear. If you're afraid of her taking your children, get legal counsel so you have that card in your pocket.
Thanks for clearing that up for me, I think you just said everything I wanted to (retrospectively) say, but didn't have the b*lls to say or think at the time.
I won't fall for that trick next time!!
Thanks Bond
I think my last counselling session has affected my thinking more on my sitch, since I've had time to reflect on what I was saying and feeling.
I think I'm only just realising exactly what my W's infidelity means to me & I've got some real soul searching to do, because I'm not sure if this is a deal breaker for me.
I've started to notice more & more the way my W is short & speaks down to me. She conveys no respect or emotion for me & she is still a WAS and behaving like a (not a nice person)!
I've started to realise that she uses sex to keep the status quo, so she can keep on doing what she wants in this (dis)functional relationship.
I feel like throwing in the towel & walking away today, because besides protecting my kids from harm, I don't know why I'm trying to save this M.
I'm just going to keep on my own path of improvements & do what makes me happy. My kids happiness are still my priority, but I'm just having real trouble picturing a healthy relationship with my W again.
I don't know how I'll feel in the future, but right now, I want out and think that's where I'm headed. I'm not even bothered about being with someone else I'm just tired of being treated like a doormat and have had enough.
I'm not going to make any snap decisions, I've still got a month before the R talk 'ceasefire' is over, so I don't know how I'll feel then.
Bill
I've started to notice more & more the way my W is short & speaks down to me. She conveys no respect or emotion for me & she is still a WAS and behaving like a (not a nice person)!
I've started to realise that she uses sex to keep the status quo, so she can keep on doing what she wants in this (dis)functional relationship.
I'm not in a situation where my WAW is ML'g with me, hell I hardly remember what sex feels like anymore, but I do have to seriously wonder if at the moment it is getting in the way of your detaching. You yourself mentioned earlier that you're just going through the motions, and now you're talking about how she's using your lust to control you.
I feel like throwing in the towel & walking away today, because besides protecting my kids from harm, I don't know why I'm trying to save this M.
I've been having exactly the same thoughts lately. I was getting really frustrated with myself and angry until it occurred to me that this is actually a positive sign--you're implicitly saying you realized you have a future beyond your current sitch no matter what. You're not saying 'why bother', your asking 'what if'.
I'm just going to keep on my own path of improvements & do what makes me happy. My kids happiness are still my priority, but I'm just having real trouble picturing a healthy relationship with my W again.
I don't know how I'll feel in the future, but right now, I want out and think that's where I'm headed. I'm not even bothered about being with someone else I'm just tired of being treated like a doormat and have had enough.
To your point, you can only change you--and you have control over your decision about where to set your boundaries.
You are going to be cycling through these emotions for awhile. You have to stick to one consistent thought and follow through each and every time. It's the only way to make whatever changes you made, stick.
Just a week ago you were mentioning how much you were ML and how much you love her, etc. Now you're saying you're done.
You can't be loving to her one minute and then hate her the next. How about using the ML opportunity to strengthen that intimacy? How about doing something completely different in the bedroom that would blow her mind and again show her why she married you?
I know it seems like I'm not being consistent and I'm pretty sure that what you are saying about these emotions being a cycle and will probably change again a few times.
It's the cheating I'm really struggling with this week, I mean she's with the OM right now dancing with him. She openly tells me a few weeks ago that she's not going to stop dancing with him & doesn't care what I think. That has been replaying in my head over and over & it just makes me angry.
Even if things have cooled between them, I don't think I can get passed it while she still has contact with him, I'll never be able to begin to regain any trust for her while she carries on dancing with him.
I know what I want is to repair our M and stay together as a family, but I just can't see how I'm going to overcome this, without her breaking all contact, which she is not going to do.
The ML has been way more creative than it ever was even when we were 20 and that side of things is great. Although it's been nearly a week since we ML and that's probably got something to do with why I've been feeling so down.
Our wedding anniversary is the 30th next month & it is also the night of my graduation ball. My W was supposed to go with me, but doesn't want to now & even if I went with my friends, because of the date I won't be able to have a good time. This [censored]!! why can't you right sux without it getting censored? one of the reasons I took up ballroom dancing with my W was so that we could dance at this ball.
I think I'm just feeling a lack of motivation to DB this week & don't know if it's a lack of sex, my counselling session, the infidelity, UNI stress or a combo of all of this, that is just making me feel tired of it all.
I think I need to watch something motivational & snap out of this.
Thanks for the posts Bond , Ourboros
Bill
Hi Bill,
I so get were you are at. I cycle between things as well, but I do try to stick with a medium term goal - even if my motivational fuel that keeps me going is as narrow minded and shallow as good old fashioned revenge. Don't get me wrong, I don't want revenge really, but that is entering my mind these days more and more. It's not healthy and at some point I will have to draw the line for my own sake, and walk away.
If that happens, at least we can say we tried. I can live with that.
However, I have set my deadline, my personal deadline of June, which has given me some peace and a goal to reach. I set it for June because I stopped pursuing all together in mid-March.
I was reading The Solo Partner last night, it said that once the pursuer stops pursuing, the distancer will go through all kinds of different reactions. But, if he or she (the distancer), does not respond in the direction of wanting to repair the R within 3-4 months of the pursuer stopping all forms of pursuit, then the emotions of the distancer are genuinely so far gone, it's best the pursuer move on and be happy.
It's not to say that a year down the road they won't then wake up and realize what they left, but I figure I might as well just be as happy as I can whilst I rebuild. At the moment, in this limbo land, I feel like I too am holding onto a hope that is interrupting my wellbeing. It might just come to a point where the balance of the scales tips more in favor of, "It's best to be alone and happy than to be cycling with no end in sight."
At the moment, there is still the possibility of a turnaround though.
Correction: mid-June is my deadline - the 19th to be exact - before I start pushing for a proper and clean cut severance of the R.
And even then, even if it all goes wonderfully fantastic and he comes to me and declares his love, and how stupid he has been, and apologises from the depth of his bowels, I have no idea whether I will have it in me to actually work through the trust issues.
She openly tells me a few weeks ago that she's not going to stop dancing with him & doesn't care what I think. That has been replaying in my head over and over & it just makes me angry.
So... her tactic is working, then...??
Only YOU can stop that, bill...
Any thoughts on how?
BTW: Of course she cares what you think you silly rabbit...
She WANTS you to be mad... that's just another form of caring...
yeah, I'm also gonna say don't think they don't feel bad for what they are doing. They do feel very bad indeed. Probably worse than you. Not that she should be acting that way, but it sometimes helps to understand they are human too (even though sometimes there does seem to be a lot of room for improvement!)
Just to be clear. So she's still seeing the OM AND you're having sex with her?
Hi Yankee
Wow - I've got some replying to do... Thanks guys for posting on my thread YC, KD & Bond I'll reply individually to your posts..
I think what went wrong for me this week (mentally) was how i dealt with my IC session on Monday. I felt really down after it & started questioning things that I hadn't thought about for a few weeks.
I think I needed some harsh words & a bit of straight talking to get me back on track. But I really was cycling around with my emotions this week, today seems a bit calmer & clearer, so I'm happy for that.
I think in regards to your point on limbo land, we just need to lower these expectations of ours. If I look closely at my own sitch there are some real signs of improvement, and that I just need to let things go at their own pace. I'm really happy with the exercising & GAL with my friends at the moment & I'm enjoying my UNI work again (just in time). I really don't need to over-think things with my W at the moment, just be aware of my actions & interactions with my W & work on my own confidence a bit more.
If we are both honest with each other no matter what we've been posting on here, the torches we hold for our WAS's are still burning & I'm not ready to put mine out just yet, even if it is burning my fingers.
Hang in there YC
Bill
She openly tells me a few weeks ago that she's not going to stop dancing with him & doesn't care what I think. That has been replaying in my head over and over & it just makes me angry.
So... her tactic is working, then...??
Only YOU can stop that, bill...
Any thoughts on how?
Well I was handling it a lot better the past 3 weeks, by not thinking about it. I mean she does go with her friends as well & hasn't been coming home late from the dancing lesson or on her phone anywhere near as much, plus she's not going out anywhere near as much as she used to. Either she really has cooled things right off with the dance partner or she's just got better at hiding it. It's all a matter of trust for me on that front.BTW: Of course she cares what you think you silly rabbit...
She WANTS you to be mad... that's just another form of caring...
So, just to clarify do you think my W wants me to be or show that I'm angry about this? - Oh man, women are such head workers sometimes!! Thanks KD
I think that I can only really detach further away while she is acting out like this & not get drawn into it. Just need to get back on board with it & not let my emotions get anywhere near the surface at the moment.
Your post has made me think about these interactions & manipluations quite a lot. I think I need to reflect a bit more on these, because I clearly don't understand women well enough when it comes to this stuff.
Bill
Just to be clear. So she's still seeing the OM AND you're having sex with her?
Hi Bond
To answer your question, I don't know if she's still seeing the OM outside of this dance lesson. I don't think that she is because she's home most of the time lately. My W never confessed to sleeping with the OM & denied it - so I don't know about that either way.
up until Sunday I was still having sex with her, but I have not wanted to initiate anything this week since my IC session on Monday.
Do you think I'm being stupid still sleeping with my W in this situation?
Bill
"Do you think I'm being stupid still sleeping with my W in this situation? "
I don't think it's stupid. I think it's just naive. So she's still seeing the OM (her choice) and having sex with you (you initiate and she doesn't). The logic sounds messed up.
It sounds like she has sex with you to keep you off her back. Emotions are more important to women than the physical attraction. If she is emotionally tied to this OM, it doesn't matter if she has sex with him or not. The connection between them will continue to grow while you're left with sloppy seconds. She's going to determine when she's done with you.
Is that what you want?
"I don't think it's stupid. I think it's just naive. So she's still seeing the OM (her choice) and having sex with you (you initiate and she doesn't does). The logic sounds messed up".
It's been a pretty even split, but before the bomb one of my big issues was never initiating sex. It has been a 180 for me of sorts, but the circumstances could be better.
"It sounds like she has sex with you to keep you off her back.
It's not always missionary ;-) But seriously though I don't feel like I'm pusuing her, I have given her space. We both have physical needs and I think that they are just being fulfilled.
Emotions are more important to women than the physical attraction. If she is emotionally tied to this OM, it doesn't matter if she has sex with him or not.
Well emotionally she may still be attached to him. He's a divorcee with a daughter,for all I know he might even be funny and she loves dancing with this little pr&*k. But for the love of God, I just can't see how or why she is/was physically attracted to this man, he's 5ft nothing, goofy looking, got grey hair and is in his mid to late 40's.
"The connection between them will continue to grow while you're left with sloppy seconds".
I don't really know what, if anything is still going on besides the dancing now. I appreciate your frank honesty, but please don't refer to my W as sloppy seconds. I'm aware that this may be happening and I'm preparing myself for a probable separation.
"She's going to determine when she's done with you.
Is that what you want"?
This is not what I want at all, when we have our next R talk after my studies have finished in a month, even if my W is not pushing for a separation, if my W is not ready to make some commitments, then we will be discussing a separation.
I'll be the one to move out & I'm OK with this if we aren't working through our issues. I've already got a couple of places lined up where I can stay if I need to.
Mr Bond, if I didn't love my W and my children, I would have walked out after learning about the affair. I know my failings in the M and I'm working really hard at putting these right, but my W's choices are hers, I can only work on me and my interactions. When the time comes and if it's not enough for her, then it's not enough and I will move forward and on with my life.
Bill
"It's been a pretty even split, but before the bomb one of my big issues was never initiating sex."
Did she tell you that this was a problem in the relationship when she dropped the bomb? How does she initiate? Does she flirt beforehand or does she just ask if you want to have sex?
"It sounds like she has sex with you to keep you off her back.
But seriously though I don't feel like I'm pusuing her, I have given her space."
I don't think you understand. She could very well be giving you sex so that you won't bother her. Or bother with the OM.
"We both have physical needs and I think that they are just being fulfilled."
Sorry that's what animals do. Women also need an emotional connection with their men. Do you actually look at each other and talk after or is it strictly wam bam thank you maam?
"Well emotionally she may still be attached to him. He's a divorcee with a daughter,for all I know he might even be funny and she loves dancing with this little pr&*k. But for the love of God, I just can't see how or why she is/was physically attracted to this man, he's 5ft nothing, goofy looking, got grey hair and is in his mid to late 40's."
I don't think you've been reading everyone's sitches too carefully. The majority of WAS's affair down. You might think he's a goof, but the bottom line is that he has your W's heart and you don't. Never underestimate someone. He is filling a need that your W has which she feels can't be filled by you.
"I don't really know what, if anything is still going on besides the dancing now. I appreciate your frank honesty, but please don't refer to my W as sloppy seconds."
I wasn't referring to your W as sloppy seconds in a physical way but an emotional one. Right now the OM is first in her heart and you're the seconds.
"if my W is not ready to make some commitments, then we will be discussing a separation."
Not the right way to think about this. You don't leave it up to her and her changes. It comes down to how you have changed.
"I'll be the one to move out & I'm OK with this if we aren't working through our issues. I've already got a couple of places lined up where I can stay if I need to."
Then that's what you should have told her. And anyhow why do you feel the need to move out? If she is unhappy, have her leave. I know she threatened you, but do you enjoy being threatened?
"if I didn't love my W and my children, I would have walked out after learning about the affair."
But her EA is still ongoing. So are you saying that it's still okay?
"I know my failings in the M and I'm working really hard at putting these right, but my W's choices are hers, I can only work on me and my interactions. When the time comes and if it's not enough for her, then it's not enough"
Again, make the changes solely for you. It's not for your W.
Hi Bond
I really appreciate your input and you're right about some of my attitudes not being DB, these are just some of my issues i'm wrestling with internally at the moment. I really think that the IC session hit some buttons, which has made me think about some stuff which is not healthy for me right now.
I know that my W has stopped with all the text messages to the OM and her actions over the last few weeks have made me think that she is just dancing with him. When she goes dancing she's got a few close girl friends that she talks to there as well. I mean it's not an ideal situation, but it could be worse.
I've been taking stock on how we've been getting on and I've only been mentioning the negatives on here. This morning we were both playing with S6 and we were laughing talking about our trip to Florida in June.
I think I need to just lower the bar and stop setting expectations to high to justify what my actions may or may not be - ie moving out.
The ML has been really good whoever initiates it post the bomb and we do talk during and after. My W's guard is still there but I think progress is being made.
I think since there has been no pressure, things have been a lot better between us. once my degree is finished in a month, I'll have so much more spare time and we've got that holiday coming up as well so I can see opportunities for things to improve.
Your right though about the changes and I am doing them for me.
I know that this is going to be a long journey and I think in some ways I have been on a roundabout this week, a bit like Clark Griswald in National Lampoon's European Vacation when he can't get right. I just need to get back to what I was doing and keep working hard.
Thanks for the wake up Call Mr Bond I needed it.
"stop setting expectations to high"
Learn to stop expectations period and stop worrying about what your W is or is not thinking.
Hi Bond
Learn to stop expectations period and stop worrying about what your W is or is not thinking.
I know you are right about this and I should just be more concerned with the here and now - the moment. I do need to try and stop thinking about her and just live my life.
Got a busy few weeks coming up at UNI which is going to take my mind of my W. Just got to keep a balance with spending as much time w/ kids as possible.
Thanks Mr Bond
Bill
Hi Bond
Learn to stop expectations period and stop worrying about what your W is or is not thinking.
I know you are right about this and I should just be more concerned with the here and now - the moment. I do need to try and stop thinking about her and just live my life.
Got a busy few weeks coming up at UNI which is going to take my mind of my W. Just got to keep a balance with spending as much time w/ kids as possible.
Thanks Mr Bond
Bill
Stopping expectations with a partner has to be
the most difficult exercise in the world!! However, effort and some headway in that direction is always positive in every aspect of life actually - so it is a worthy endeavor.
I have some ways to go on that front too - don't we all.
It might be easiest to just keep on focussing on the Uni as much as possible (47.5%) then 47.5% on the kids then whatever is left on her?
Hi Yankee
Well my weekend has gone a lot better than my week in terms of how I was feeling about my W.
We've hung out a bit with the kids & we were talking just about stuff going on. Then last night My W nearly makes me pee my pants with this Tom Jones impression we were both howling laughing. It was great, just like old times.
Then tonight my Dad calls about letting borrow his car & picking my Mum & Dad up from the airport next week. My W answered the phone, but avoided any real conversation with my Dad (she wasn't rude, but passed the phone over pretty quickly).
Well anyway my mum is on the phone for about 5 minutes before she asks about our kids, she hasn't seen them in a fortnight since we stopped going for Sunday lunch. My sister has got 2 kids the same age as mine & she got divorced about 4 years ago. Well my Mum & Dad spend all their free time with them, take my sister's kids to school & take them places, whereas my 2 get overlooked all the time. This has been a bone of contention & something me & my W have argued about alot in the past. You know the same argument over & over.
Well I thought it was coming tonight & it did (kind of)... My W started off with her usual opening onslaught about my mum treating our kids second best & making no effort, but instead of me going silent, I validated her. These things annoy & hurt me too, but she's still my mum so I don't enjoy these conversations. I validated everything that she said & it was a really calm conversation & I brought it to an end by saying something I surprised myself with I said:
I don't like the way my mum and dad are with our kids & it hurts me just as much...But I can't change how the way they are, I wish it was different, but it's not. I've tried to talk to them about it in the past but it doesn't change anything.... Then out of nowhere I say,
D & S are my family and always will be.
Now it wasn't a conscious thing for me to not include my W in that sentence but I didn't and it kind of threw my W off guard a little (raise an eyebrow), but she validated me by saying I know.
More than anything I want to work things out with my W & keep my family together, so I don't know quite where that came from..
Something to reflect on anyway...
Bill
Journal Entry
What a difference a week makes!!
Had the best day yesterday. Started it off with a run.
It was the awards for the best presentation @ UNI yesterday and I won the outstanding award out of my year (70 people). I think I win book vouchers and more prestigiously get my finished essay published in the university journal. So happy about this, all my tutors and friends were really happy for me & said that they loved my presentation.
My W was made up for me as well, she sent me lots of text messages congratulating me & even got a congratulations card for the kids to write & give to me (really nice touch).
I then went to my dance class for a bit more GAL and had a great lesson & had a couple of drinks and quite a few dances afterwards in general dance.
When I come home my W had waited up for me & said that she wanted to congratulate me personally & initiated making love. For the first time in a while the kissing felt real & full of emotion and feeling from my W. An amazing end to my day.
Today I've had another IC session, which went really well, starting to feel so positive about myself and feel like I'm dealing with things loads better now.
I then met up with a friend to go into town & hire a tuxedo for our graduation ball at the end of May & then went for a Chinese meal.
Earlier my W called me on her way home saying she had 1 mile of diesel (gas) left & didn't know if she would make it to the station. I asked her to call me if she broke down before she got to the station & I would meet her there with the kids. She made it to the station, but called me anyway because she had left her bank card at home. I drove down to the petrol (gas) station & met her & paid for her. I did it with a smile & she was happy to see me & the kids.
Right now I'm in the library, got about 4,000 words to do on my dissertation which is due in on Monday. So it's going to be a late one tonight doing work.
All in all, I'm very happy with how things are going for me in my own life & in my current sitch. Still taking everything day by day, but things are good right now.
Bill
That is just wonderful Bill!! I am sooo happy for you!!!
Sounds like things are going just swimmingly - that is great. You have done a lot of good work, so it's bound to pay off.
I have a tutor meeting tomorrow and worked all day to get ready for it. I feel more than ready - but have another full year to go for my project. I have more confidence after today - feels like I am getting there.
Have you already started applying for jobs and such? Well, good luck with that. With all this positive energy you are exuding, you are bound to get something PDQ.
That is just wonderful Bill!! I am sooo happy for you!!!
Thanks YC - I was so happy winning that award & just in general this week, with how things are going.Sounds like things are going just swimmingly - that is great. You have done a lot of good work, so it's bound to pay off.
I have a tutor meeting tomorrow and worked all day to get ready for it. I feel more than ready - but have another full year to go for my project. I have more confidence after today - feels like I am getting there.
You've been focusing on your UNI alot more lately so I'm sure you'll get good feedback on where you are up to from your tutor tomorrow.Have you already started applying for jobs and such?
I've been accepted on a PGCE course - which is basically an initial teacher training course. 1 year post grad (Masters level). This starts in September & I'll get a bursary so I'll be ok for money while I'm doing it & then when that finishes - September 2013 - hopefully I'll be a teacher. But in the short term I'm just going to do some temping from the middle of next month until September. Well, good luck with that. With all this positive energy you are exuding,
you are bound to get something PDQ.
That last line is sooo freaky!! My last job that I got made redundant from was at a large bank and the department was called PDQ!! - scary stuff 
Thanks for that Yankee - reading your post was a welcome break from my dissertation - It's about a quarter to midnight where I am & I'm still in the library trying to put a dent in my dissertation :-( It's due in on Monday - still got quite a bit to do, but I'll get there.
How's things been since your move with your H Yankee? Has the communication been a bit easier, since you spent all that time together doing the move?
Bill
Hi Bill,
I am just finally able to sit down and read through all the different sitch's that are happening here in DB land. Thought I'd check in with you and see how you are doing.
Since the move - it's been strange. VERY quiet on both our ends now. Maybe it was all just too much for him in the end. I have no idea. He brought over all my stuff from his place, but I'm pleased to say he kept a photo of me. Otherwise, his place is now clear of my stuff.
Likewise, my place is clear of his stuff.
Like I said, it's gone REALLY quiet, so I have no idea what is going on. I fear that I'm gonna have to face the music here.
We didn't talk about anything during the move.
I oscillate between deep anger towards him and a feeling like 'what's the point, I can't get through anyway." - a futility.
It's funny but I feel more lonely here than I did in my old place - even though it was further out. It's going to take time to make this place feel like my home. I don't feel particularly settled yet and certainly not attached. I need to enjoy myself and have some good times. That will help a lot.
School tomorrow - what would I do without it!!!
How is the dissertation going?
Hi Bill,
I have been doing my masters in Photography and have changed my project entirely. I've been in two minds about changing the subject of my project because I didn't want to enmesh myself too much in my art, but I realise I am already in it whether I like it or not!
At first, I was going to be doing one about the evolution of human consciousness. Now, with the move and everything going on in my own life, I want to do one about relationships and lives in transition - including my own. I've already begun to photograph my life in transition - but I thought it would be interesting to photograph others in this process as well.
Since you are here in the UK, it might be easier to photograph UK based people. I may or may not use them toward my final but it would be incorporated in the research aspect of the project.
Are you up for it?
Long overdue Journal Entry
Where to start... Well things have been quite distant lately between me and my W. I've been working really hard getting my UNI work finished during the last three weeks & it's almost over - tomorrow is my last dealine
During this time my W has pulled away quite a lot, going to bed really early, not wanting to spend any more time than she has to. This was kind of the drill just after the bomb.
I have been true to DB principles and not stepped up any pursuit and have respected her actions & wanting space. I have made an effort with conversation, asking how her day was, filling her in on what the kids have been up to etc. It's been hard, because she hasn't seemed engaged in these conversations & every opportunity she had to get a 'dig' in to me about something from the past, she did so. I haven't took the bait once & I am not going to unless it's a big issue.
A few times, mainly at the weekend, my W has made plans to take the kids out without inviting me (which may have been to leave me to study), but the kids have been asking me, are you coming with us to the park, museum etc... I've had to go along with the "too busy with study" answer, but inside I'm like, 'I'd love to come, I ain't invited'.
If I make plans with the kids, I still have the courtesy and ask my W if she wants to join us, knowing that she will 9 times out of 10 say no. This is important for me because I don't want to exclude my W from family time, if she chooses to exclude herself, that is her choice & different.
We are still living together, in the same bed and we have not had any R discussions, as we agreed on a R ceasefire until at least after my UNI work was finished. This has given me time to keep up my IC and get myself stronger mentally to prepare for either outcome, whether it be working through our issues or separation.
I know that we are going to end up talking about our next steps either before or after an upcoming holiday to Florida with the kids, and I feel like I'm prepared for these discussions.
The way I'm looking at things right now, is more positively. My 1st choice is for us to try & piece our M back together, and stay together as a family. My 2nd choice is to separate and see what life is like being single (I was 20 last time I was single).
Either choice is going to be hard, and both choices have their pay offs. I'm just staying positive, because either outcome will have its good and bad.
** This morning, my W was running late for work and when I went upstairs to get some clothes, she was just sitting on the bed and had been / still was crying. I asked her if she was ok, she said, 'I feel like crap, so fed up, my clothes look terrible on me, I feel fat, my hair is awful and I'm sick of moaning all the time'. I tried to reassure my W, by saying that she always looks great and that I loved her figure and her hair is really nice. I asked her if she needed a hug & went to give her a hug, but she rejected it and said it would make her worse. I offered to iron her skirt & complimented her on her new perfume, which cheered her up a bit, going to work & she has text me back since being at work letting me know she is ok, just having a bad day.**
Now, before anyone gets their 2x4's out on me, I'm not reading anything into this, other than she's been thinking about stuff. But that shouldn't stop you guys reading in to it for me
Bill
(sorry about the long post - 3 weeks since my last so please go easy on us)
Hi Bill - you sound really good. You should continue to not read anything into what happened - you don't know if she's thinking about stuff or just like she said, having a bad day. But - do more of what works and less of what doesn't. She isn't in a place where she want hugs - but your compliment was well received. Your PMA is great, hang in there!
Hey thanks Adinva
Yeah I know it's pointless trying to mind read, although it did make me curious, seeing her upset as to what brought her to tears. Although I'm ready for these difficult conversations and just want to know what my next steps in life are, I'm going to give my W more time for her to think things over & when she's ready to bring up the R talk, it'll be the best time. I don't like being in limbo, but the positive way I've been looking at limbo for me is that every day in limbo is another day we are together as a family, without the kids getting hurt.
I had a great weekend away with some of my friends who I've known since school, went to stay with them. Visited a few nice pubs & we had a whiskey session, we each had to throw in some money, ended up drinking this japanese bottle which was very expensive, but so worth it & the hangover the next day
One of my friends on the train down there asked me how my W was & how come she never comes out with me & if everything was OK between us. I just brushed it off & said that she was fine & that she was spending lots of time with her dancing friends. I'm not ready to let my friends know what is going on, I don't need their advice, just their friendship at the moment. If we do separate, then I will tell them of course, but right now I'm protecting our relationship, friendship and my family & ultimately me I suppose.
My individual counselling has been going really well, had a couple of sessions not so long ago that really took it out of me, made me think really deep about myself & what's important in my life. I really think I'm coming out of the other side of this now. I know I've got a lot of work still to do on mysself, but I think I'm getting there.
I know that if I work hard at UNI and get a teaching job, I'll be satisfied professionally - my control
I know that if I continue to be a great dad & spend as much time with my kids as possible - they'll love me as much as I love them - my control
I know that if I truly love my wife - I'll be there for her whether it's as a friend, lover or life partner - my control
staying Married or together in a relationship with my W - that's a 50/50 or an out of control situation, that i am just going to roll with & make the most of either outcome.
Bill
I'm up late finishing off my last essay @ UNI which is all about reflective practice and I've been reading some work by a guy called Steve Duck. He's written loads about relationships and has related some good ideas about why so many people divorce, being due to unreasonable expectations in a society that has changed so much in the last 50 years.
Here's a little snippet that I think a lot of us can relate to...
Spouses are now asked to be satisfying lovers, caring friends, medical superintendents, financial providers, and even mutual therapists. Many are also faced with managing the stresses of family and two careers in the same household. At first we might see this as a welcome devleopment, but the increased importance of these competing roles has the paradoxical effect of making it more likely that the members of the family will fall short of the emotional demands placed upon them.
Duck, S. (2007)
I know some people on these boards, complain that divorce is too easy an option and what's wrong with people these days etc... I think that modern life is much more complicated, than it used to be and people lose sight of the important things, because life is messy.
Just something to ponder
Bill
hmmmm, Bill, it's good to put that out for discussion. For me, it doesn't ring true. Mr. Duck seems to think that the simpler life had less divorce because people weren't as stressed and didn't have so many expectations. I think people were unhappily married in the past as much as now, but divorce is easier and more accepted. In the past people just sucked it up. JMO, based on only anecdotal evidence.
Well I guess you could definitely argue that people were just as unhappy in their marraiges in the past, and that it was probably the stigma of being divorced that kept unhappily married couples together also. I just think though that the more time we fill up our lives being busy, with our careers, friends, (extended) family, children, and ME time, the less time we have to relate to our spouses and when things are rough, how easily this is exposed due to our other commitments.
I'm not saying this guy's ideas aren't flawed, or using this being busy as an excuse is a valid excuse, but I think it's a contributing factor as to why people can become consumed with other elements and stresses within their life, and not put the time in to make a healthy relationship work.
enjoying the discussion - Thanks Adinva
Hey Adinva
just wanted to thank you for the advice about keeping on doing what works, 'compliments'. Last night my W had one of her girlfriends over so she could dye her hair for her and they were talking about changing their hair styles (normal stuff).
Well my W has been talking about changing her hair for like forever (well maybe 18 months...but who's counting) and in the past when she's mentioned it, I'd always encouraged her but been on the fence, you know, saying things like, 'I really like your hair the way it is now, but you would really suit having it cut that way too'. I think that was me verbatim and sums up just how indecisive I was.
The different me today, when my wife showed me how she wanted to have it cut, 'I could really see you with that look, oh yeah that looks great, it really shows off your cheek bones, you'd look hot with your hair like that'. She was smiling, really smiling like I haven't seen her smile in ages & I think she might just get that haircut, and she definitely had a spring in her step when she left the house.
Now there was a bit of flirting initiated by me and some received from my W, now I'm really happy with that interaction and I'm not expecting to have sex with my W later, which I think is a complete 180 for me.
I'm genuinely happy that I gave my W a nice confidence boost going to work and I'm starting to experience first hand, just how much better I feel when I'm confident and express myself directly and how much better my interactions are lately, in things I used to screw up all the time.
Bill
Cheers Adinva!!
Yesterday was my first day of freedom since I finished UNI - yay no more assignments - well until Sept when I start my teacher training. Major relief and its been both a blessing and a pain while dealing with my sitch and my growth.
I had a pretty productive day, in the morning I went into the attic and brought down all of the bags of clothes that are either too small or too big for the four of us and sorted through some of my clothes. There must have been close to 30 bin bags full of clothes, my W thought I was going to dump them or give them to a charity shoup, but a new store had opened that buys clothes by the kilo. So I took them there and ended up getting £70 which is just over $100 :-) when I gave the money to my W and said how I got it, she was really happy, because things are tight at the moment. So - score on my mornings work.
When I got back W had made plans to go to the park with her mum and dad and the kids - no invite for me (getting used to it now). So I went to the store and got some pizzas for dinner and tidied up the whole downstairs, hoovered and mopped. So when they come back it looked great, to relax and have a nice Saturday night in together as a family.
I'm just going to keep working hard and being nice and having fun with the kids. I still feel a lot of resentment from my W, which I try to validate, although most of the time it is just expressed by her out of spite, and I have to bite my lip because she's being a little b*@*h! My expectations are very,very low about anything positive happening between us soon, but I'm not gonna let that get me down. I'm trying real hard, so we can stay together as a family, but I'm not going to plead if my W brings up R conversation and wants to separate (one of us leaves).
I think in the short term unless something happens beforehand, this holiday to Florida in 3 weeks is going to help determine what's gonna happen next in our sitch.
2 weeks, spent together as a family having fun and I guess there will be plenty of opportunities for my W to bring up R talk there as well.
I think the big plus point for the way I feel right now, is that I'm not fearing these conversations or the outcome. My W isn't my life, she's a part of it, the rest of my life is going great now and whatever happens I'll get through it, just like so many of you guys have done.
Everything in life that is worth working for, means more and is worth the pain for the joy of happiness and fulfillment.
Bill
Journal Entry
Yesterday I was taking the kids to the park & then round to my Mums for a couple of hours & my W was going out with her Mum & Dad to get some new shoes for work. The day before I had tidied up & my W couldn't find one of her shoes, she was really snappy & short, just being a spoilt little brat.
That money I made sorting the clothes out, she took it with her to get shoes, so no ice cream money for us. But I thought it doesn't matter, we'll go to my Mum's and they can have ice cream there. When W was saying bye to the kids in the car my little girl was asking why we couldn't get ice cream at the park, I just said money's tight kids, we'll get one at Nan's. My W then says if you want money just ask. She said it really horrible and to try & make me feel small. So I thought enough is enough of this crap and said, we don't need any money and don't speak to me like that again, and gave her a don't mess with me stare. She slammed the door & off we went in our separate directions.
20 minutes later I get a text message of her appologizing for how she behaved and spoke to me. Wow!! that was a big freaking deal for me, her apologizing for something & apologizing first when we'd had an argument. She was being a turd & I stood up for myself & called her on it, i wasn't nasty or anything, just really firm.
I also think that the penny has dropped for me, I need to stand up for myself more often & not let this sort of stuff slide all the time. My W showed me more respect last night & was much more outgoing & nicer = what sandi2 & Adinva & YC have been saying, be strong and confident, not weak & a push over.
By the way, I have been really good on the ML front, because I wanted to make sure that my W wasn't just appeasing me with sex. I haven't initiated anything & we haven't ML for nearly a month. A lot of that though has been because of the ridiculously late nights doing UNI work. The flirting was there last night, from both sides, but I'm not going to push it, it'll happen on it's own soon enough (hopefully tonight though.. a month without ML is too long!! LOL) ;-)
Bill
Hi Bill,
I know it's been a few days since this post, but I would like to add something (if it hasn't already been said).
Your wife sounds like me on a bad day - when PMS and hormones are involved. You did the right thing IMO in supporting her and being quite kind and generous. It's tough having hormones I can tell you that! Even if she pushed you away a bit, don't take it personally. She will remember that you made an effort.
It's really tough when hormones are raging - there is little control it seems. Mind you, for my personal situation - I have done so much to get myself under control but it's still hard work.
I don't know if this was the case during that time - I hope it was!
If not, then yes, she has been doing a lot of thinking - which is a good thing in itself.
And yet, on the last post you made here, you also did the right thing. You reminded her of your boundaries, and that is very important! Not only for you, but for her as well. People like knowing where they stand with others. So, good one!! You seem to be really hitting the nail on the head here, time and again.
Hey thanks Yankee
I think in general I'm just so much more self aware about how my actions and interactions impact others (especially my W), that I've been paying attention to what works & of the desired outcomes of these actions / interactions.
I don't feel like I've got any anxiety about a timeline or a desire to be told where I stand if we have an R talk, I just feel at peace with myself right now.
I'm really happy at how I've just owned my grief and relationship issues alongside the stress of finishing a degree. Nothing is forced, it's just natural, I've changed and I really like who I am now, but I'm not going to become complacent and will keep on growing.
A few weeks ago I was taking in my IC session about how this upcoming holiday is going to be make or break / decide some things. Whereas now, I'm just looking forward to this holiday & can't wait to see my kids happy little faces in the theme parks. If stuff happens between me & my W or we discuss our R - then we do. It's not on my agenda, I'm giving my W as much time and space as she needs. When she's ready to discuss anything, I'll still be ready.
I feel that me and my W are getting closer emotionally, these past couple of weeks, which is great and I can really sense a genuine warmth again when she's in the house. Not necessarily always towards me, but the way she is with the kids again. It feels like we are a family again, although we are a long way of being a couple, it does feel nice being a family again.
I think that's one of the most important things I've learned since the bomb and my journey, just how much family (my W & kids) means to me.
I'm still chipping away at me, gotta long way to go, but I'm happy with how things are going. I still hope for getting back together with my W, but I certainly don't expect it in anyway. As long as I keep doing my best and be open to the possibility of a R, then I'll be able to hold my head up, knowing I gave it my best shot.
Bill
Thanks Yankee
Need to Journal today...
Anniversary30th May (today) Our 9th wedding anniversary. I went over in my head what to do about this & didn't want to go over the top, so I decided on getting a nice personalised card (funky pigeon). I really felt the need to acknowledge the date, but not go overboard - I don't really feel like celebrating the worst year of our marraige either - but (for better or worse and all that - in for the long haul). I'm just going to make a nice dinner & leave it at that.
My W didn't get me a card & just said 'I didn't think we were doing anything this year'. I'm actually fine with her not getting me a card, I really did just want to acknowledge the date.
WoohooSunday - was a good day. Myself, W & kids went round to MIL's for a BBQ. We all had fun & had quite a few beers in the garden. That night me & W broke the unspoken sex ban & didn't do much sleeping (boy was it needed!!).
Last night me & W having fun, enjoying each others company watching TV & playing games with each other on our phones - silly stuff - but it was really cool to just hang out.
Me StuffHad a great day yesterday - got my grade back for my dissertation & got a 1st!! - just 2 more marks & then I'll know what degree class I have got. So happy considering I could barely put a sentence together for 2 months after the bomb.
Had my last IC session yesterday & my counsellor was saying that he couldn't get over how I'd changed over the last 8 weeks & that I was so much more assertive, self aware & happy now. I do feel all these things but it's always nice to hear it from someone else.
9 days until Florida!!!
Lots to be happy about - I'll keep you posted on how the rest of the anniversary goes.
No expectations, No pressure, just a home cooked family dinner at home.
Bill
Hi Bill - Good on you that you did what you wanted without expectations!! This is something I'm learning to do too.
And, that your W didn't get you a card is - as you say - fine. I can pretty much assure you she felt a bit bad about it, particularly when you presented her with one. Hopefully, it will be back on track for next year's celebration.
I totally agree with you counsellor that you have become an assertive, positive person - and this is clearly the change your marriage needed of you to get yourselves to the next level. You deserve the rewards
And finally, congratulations on your 1st! You have seriously bounced back and gone on to be better and stronger. Congratulations!
Thanks Yankee, I felt good that I acknowledged the date. It was a nice card, no more, no less. I kind of expected my W to not get me a card & that's OK, because it's a reality check for me that things are a long way from being what I one day hope for again.
Speaking of reality checks, lately our interactions have been really good, we've been getting on really well making each other laugh and it's been great. Today my W went out shopping for some holiday clothes and got me a few tops she thought I would like. I was really happy about this & the tops were great, not reading anything into it, other than it being a nice gesture.
This past Sunday it was my W's Nan's 80th birthday & we had a surprise party for her at my MIL's. The party was great except for one awkward moment, when W's auntie noticed my W wasn't wearing her wedding & engagement rings. I was sitting right next to my W and she just shook her head and said just aren't, her auntie pressed her by asking why and she just said nothing and looked away. This made me feel uncomfortable, like a fraud, like I didn't matter. It also made me realise, that although we have made some baby steps together and haven't had a R talk in months, her actions in that interaction showed me that she still is either not ready or has no desire to stand up for our M. I let it go & never brought it up afterwards, no point, we were both there & I know how her actions / in-actions made me feel.
My son is picking up on things not being right between us. Today when my W did her, 'Who's my best boy in the world.. I love you son bit' my son asked her outright why don't you ever say you love daddy, he's your husband you're supposed to love dad. We just looked at each other, I don't know who that hurt more, me or my W.
We are due to go to Florida on Friday morning, really can't wait to go, just going to enjoy myself with the kids & have fun with my W as well. This holiday isn't make or break for us, it's just a holiday, a much needed holiday at that.
The Anniversary, the questioning of the rings by an auntie and my son's observation are all indicators to me that although there has been some considerable improvements in communication between my W and I, there is a hell of a long way to go, either way on this journey for me.
Bill
Got a couple of days left in Orlando before going back home to Liverpool, had fun over here, although I feel like I need another holiday to get over this one.
Been to all the theme parks Disney, sea world, universal, busch gardens with my W and the kids. It's been nice spending all this time together as a family and on the whole there's been lots of positives and a few negatives between me and my W.
The good
We've had lots of fun together with the kids, got on really well and compromised a little better than we usually do. A couple of times we flirted with each other, which was nice.
The bad
She totally dismissed fathers day, never even got a card for the kids to give me, they made one on the day and when we were out shopping she said why don't you buy yourself something for fathers day. I just thought that blowed she could have got a card for them :-( every night she has made sure she went to bed first and went asleep, don't know if it's to avoid speaking to me or to avoid any physical contact, ml.
I've also experienced lots of triggers thinking of the affair on this holiday and I've had to snap myself out of it.
Maybe I'm just hoping still that I'll feel a spark between us again. I k.ow that this is my issue and I shouldn't have any expectations. But i'm finding it hard accepting the way things are, because I want more.
This is just me speaking in general on this vacation, it hasn't stopped me having fun and enjoying myself. I've over indulged in the huge portions of food over here and the margheritas LOL!!
Just thought I'd check in, haven't posted for a couple of weeks.
Had a blast in Florida with the W and kids, but it's good to be back home!!
I've had a day to catch up on sleep and reflect a bit about the time we spent together as a family & on the whole it was great. I didn't know what to expect with how me and my W would get on or if anything would happen in terms of R talk or any progression either way in our sitch.
Before we went away I had hopes that we'd become a bit closer, have a good time with the kids and lastly avoid any R talk. 2 out of 3 ain't bad as meatloaf would say and at least I got to go to Universal Studios & see all the Harry Potter stuff!!
I need a fresh start, going to catch up on some threads, get back to DB and re-evaluate my short term goals.
I find out on Tuesday how I did on my degree, got my fingers crossed.
Bill
Wow great news guys, I got a 1st class honours degree - so happy!! This means loads to me for my future & I finally feel like I've acheived something for me!! It also means that I'll get a decent bursary on my teacher training course starting in September, which is a huge relief financially.
I've been reading a bit of Snowman's latest posts & was curious about this no more mr nice guy book. I've been on the site & I couldn't believe how much the symptoms of being a nice guy resonated with me. I've ordered the book today, 'cause I think it will really help me look closer at some of my issues & help me with my 180's.
Thanks Snow for sharing
Bill