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Posted By: Crimson Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 03/26/12 03:58 PM
Part 12

Wow - Part 13. I might need to change my subject header one of these days.

CV - with regard to my previous post, "smudging" is a process wherein you burn sage (or other herbs) inside of your home. In theory, it is symbolic of the smoke trapping negative energy, emotions, thoughts, etc. - and carrying them away when you open up the windows and air out the house. You can even capture the smoke in your hands and rub it on your skin to do the same. I am BY NO MEANS a new age person, but I have heard enough about it from others to give it a try. Perhaps it is psychological, but it did feel calming in a lot of respects. However, burning sage smells a HELL of a lot like weed. So my neighbors probably think I am a stoner now.

To type that I even DID that last night feels weird to me, but I am trying to stay open to new things. And, really, as things began to get worse at the house when w was still living there there were a lot of bad conversations, memories and feelings that went on in that house - even if it was 100% symbolic, I want them out. So I marched about the house last night, in prayer, actually. Probably stood in the room that my wife called home before she moved out for 5 minutes. Campy as it may sound, I could really feel the hurt she must have felt in that room as she withered away to under 100 pounds and didn't sleep,


Anyhooooo.....that's smudging and that's why I did it.

Crimson
Posted By: adinva Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 03/26/12 05:07 PM
Hi Crimson - you sure have a lot of threads! I think I've been following them since the very beginning.

Quote:
Harrier -

Not falling on deaf ears at all. I value your input and frankness. Hell, I think you were one of the first people to respond to my first thread - that seems like a million years ago.

So if I think about it practically, the D really is nothing more than a point in time. The significance, however, from a psychological point of view, is tough to deal with. Most of that is ego driven...ande fear driven. If you are a person that stuggles with rejection - and I am - D is right around the pinnacle of rejection.

Regarding S - I don't think I am projecting much onto him. When he asks for his mom a lot it is just one of those things that serves as a reminder that she is not around and it just thrusts our situation into the forefront of my mind. He is adjusting to this lifestyle OK, a lot of that has to do with the fact that w and I are doing OK together right now.

Notwithstanding, I see your point and acknowledge that it is something that I need to be aware of. I could easily see myself falling into the trap of projecting my feelings onto my S.

You seem defensive about Harrier's (and in the past others') attempts to give you an outsider's perspective on your thought processes. You're having a tough time, and it was pointed out that you could stop spinning if you try taking a wider perspective on the D, and your argument was that you're having a tough time. That circle could go on forever, or you could try harder to internalize what was said. If it doesn't fit, it doesn't, but if you come out of the gate arguing you may not have really heard it.

I have thought the same as Harrier about projecting - building up an outrage on behalf of your son that really more reflects your own outrage and assumptions.

D is the pinnacle of rejection if you decide to see it that way. In that case, all of us here are rejected and should feel bad about that - yet we don't all feel bad. You can decide to see it as a wake up call and a turning point, a chance for a better future. We aren't always successful at seeing the glass half full, but it helps to try and not wallow in the negative side of it. I think H was trying to help you get out of that train of thought.

Your sitch shows potential and I hope you keep growing as a person through it.

Did you play any sports? Ever had a coach tell you to visualize what you want to achieve? Would a coach approve of your insistence on looking at the negative, the failure, the sorrow and doom? Would you hit a home run thinking like that? Coach yourself and train your thoughts.

Best regards,
Adinva
Crimbo - haven't been on the boards for a few days and needed to catch up.

Smudging? I crashed a party in Boston on St Paddy's that turned out to be a friend's house and he talked about the same thing, but the sitch was slightly different. There were entities in the house and he told me all these stories from when they remodeled the house about the starnge going on. Someone suggested the smudging and it worked. No more tolld moving around at night, no more entities playing the paino, all thsi other stuff went away too.

Keeping in line with unseen energy in our life, remember that the universe cannot work with you in the past (regret) and cannot work with you in the future (fear). It can only work with you in the present. And it gives you what you give it. So continue to give joy and happiness and that is what will be attarcted into your life. You can only do that by letting go of what is uncontrollable...your W...the D and demons(D lawyers).
Adinva - first off, thanks for having the tenacity to follow my threads all of this time.

I don't feel as though I am being defensive - but perhaps now I am being defensive about being defensive. In fact, I don't argue the fact that I do not do well taking a look at the larger perspective. I am certainly trying, but I have a lot of fears to get over that keep me from doing so. I am working on them, and at the end of the day they are most likely inevitable so no need to push back against them.

In terms of visualization - I have moments when I picture the ideal outcome and work towards it. However, that gives me hope and then I start freaking about having those hopes crushed. I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS HEALTHY! In fact, I hate the fact that I struggle like that - I am just doing my best to be honest here.

Re: Smudging - Rick, I hope it will be effective for me and my home. It was rather soothing - I'll evaluate in a few weeks and see if I should do it again.

Crimson
Let me know how that, smudging, works out after a while. I have been curious about it.
Posted By: labug Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 03/26/12 10:20 PM
Crimson, I wouldn't have taken you to be a smudger.
hey Crimson

just stopping by so it's easier to find your thread.

I used to "turn my marriage" over to God about 100 times a day in the shower.

I thought it, said it out loud and heard it. It helped sink in. IS it real or psychological?

I say, what's the difference? Any ritual is symbolic, but that doesn't make it powerless.

Carry on...how are your GAL things going? I have not heard much about those lately...
LA - No one that really knows me would think I would smudge. I do NOT fit the profile, if such a thing exists. However, I am deadly serious about making changes in my life and how I do things - and part of that is being open to different/new things that reside outside of my normal realm.

GAL has been a bit slow, 25 - I need to pick back up again. I have plans with a friend for later this week.

Crimson
Posted By: labug Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 03/27/12 01:16 AM
and there's never anything to do in your city...
Posted By: adinva Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 03/27/12 01:49 AM
Originally Posted By: Crimson
I don't feel as though I am being defensive - but perhaps now I am being defensive about being defensive.

smile
The reason I catch it in you is because I'm guilty of it myself. But there's a lot here to help you if you're open to it.

You said you have fears that you're working on that hold you back from visualizing a positive outcome. What are the fears? Why would they prevent you from imagining good in your life? And maybe you need to take a look at your positive outcome - if it's about things you don't control (ie your W) then you're just wishfully thinking. If it's about things you do control (being a Crimson who will find and transmit joy in life with or without W, or some such goal focused entirely on YOU and things YOU control) then it is within your power to visualize and achieve it.
If anything you might just get sick of the BS, and the worry and the stress and say hey this isn't so bad, I'm me, I got this great kid, my health, friends, tons of good stuff to do everywhere.

"F" worrying about the lawyers, enjoy your life
Originally Posted By: Crimson
LA - No one that really knows me would think I would smudge. I do NOT fit the profile, if such a thing exists. However, I am deadly serious about making changes in my life and how I do things - and part of that is being open to different/new things that reside outside of my normal realm.

GAL has been a bit slow, 25 - I need to pick back up again. I have plans with a friend for later this week.

Crimson


2 things...first as to GAL in your area, like Gabby says, it's important. There's a reason we hammer it here.

It shows your w a new you and anything that is less predictable about you means you are changing. It tends to support the concept of change in YOU.

Plus you are a happier person b/c of that. You obsess less and go negative a lot less.

YOU NEED TO GAL more than most given your choice of behaviors when you don't GAL

Second, as for where you live...um, excuse me? I lived in the interior of Alaska, which has a temp range of the 90's in the summer to -60'F in the winter.

That's 150' difference...and there were 40k people in an area the size of Virigina. And I had a newborn when we moved there so she was never more than 3...

I GAL so you can.


Working out, getting in shape, seeing a C, taking some AD's, using a tanning bed (don't recommend that for all)

learned to shoot, hunt and fish

learned to cross country ski, honed my downhill skiing, snowmachined (snowmobiling to you lower 48 types)

took flying lessons and got my pilot's license.

Took an Italian cuisine class, a French conversation class, a pottery class

and volunteered at the women's shelter.

Joined a writer's group.

Auditioned for community theater and got cast and met cool people.

My love for theater had been suppressed when I became a L b/c it seemed frivolous... But the joy it provided made me pursue a master's in theater later on when we moved west. I would not have known that if I had not GAL.

I Did stand up comedy (I still do and now I write jokes for comics and actually get paid for it)

Some of what I did lead me to discover things about myself I would NOT have known if I had not pushed myself out there.

Lead to some career changes too. (Oh, and I looked good.)

this list^^^ is not exhaustive but it is illustrative.

Join something, go to meetings, MEET new people who have nothing to do with you being married or sep

just Crimson interests...

please, you'd be doing yourself a favor and you'd bring more interesting stuff to the table as a mate.

Don't know how else to stress the importance of this.


((( )))
25 - in honor of you, I put this reflection as my FB status -

*************
Good piece of advice I got from a friend a few weeks ago that has been stuck in my head: "It is pointless to argue the past with someone you love, you will never agree. Two witnesses to the same car wreck will often disagree. The past serves two core purposes - 1.) loving memories, 2.) lessons learned." The more you know......
**************

It's haunting because that one little piece of advice could have saved me a ton of angst over the years. I will never forget this ^^^^^^^.

As for getting a life, I do need to get back on track there. I think I am struggling with a bit of social shyness that I need to get beyond. Need to break the ice a bit. People that know me would never believe that - but it is quite true. I will try to do something brave and new this coming week. Hold me to that. smile

As for the tanning beds....not an issue, and it ain't because of the blazing desert sun! wink

Crimson
Crimson - you're a b-ball fan right? Why no go play some pickup ball? I meet great people that way...total strangers. Get your kid one of those mini-hoops and show him what he needs to know!
Originally Posted By: rickb89
Crimson - you're a b-ball fan right? Why no go play some pickup ball? I meet great people that way...total strangers. Get your kid one of those mini-hoops and show him what he needs to know!

Fan of the game - especially on the college level, but I am a terrible player. To be from the state of Indiana, well over 6 feet and terrible at basketball is punishable by death in the Hoosier State. Hence, I left. (: Ironically, though prior to your post yesterday I DID buy my son a mini-hoop for the backyard for his 2nd birthday.

So I dropped s off at w's condo yesterday after work. That never really gets easy to do. Hung out at the condo for about 20 minutes shooting the breeze with w and then took off. The first 5 minutes of that drive really blow - the separation if pretty obvious in that moment.

My w had given me a silver necklace of hers on Sunday with a very fine chain that had a nasty knot in it for me to fix. Over the years with her I have actually gotten pretty good at that repair. I fixed it and dropped it off yesterday with S.

Later than night w texted me saying "Thanks for fixing my necklace. My floors are clean now. I am very self conscious you might judge that I don't clean enough".

Funny thing is, I neither noticed nor commented on her floors or anything else at her place - looked fine to me, and moreover, I wasn't looking to adjudicate anything. Rather than ask WTH she was talking about (old Crimson), I said "I know it's hard to believe given my past, but I don't pay attention to that much these days. You should see MY place right now - it's a mess". Which really is true. Hoping she took that to heart. But it DID make me aware of the fact that historically even if I didn't MEAN to do it, she felt as though I was running a white-glove test on everything she did around the house. Real or not, I am really working to change (180) that perception. I DO tend to be a bit too neat at times.

Anyhoooo - onward and upward.

Crimson
I guess what I am wondering about in the above ^^^^ is why would she even care to bring her floors up? What's the need to for her to tell me she cleaned her floors? Even if she thought I WAS looking at them - why does MY opinion of her place matter to her right now???
Hmm, maybe trying to bait you into an argument?


Starsky
GM you described my W above. She would always re check everything that I did including me washing my own dish or measuring trees that I planted. Really makes one feel inferior especially if you already have inefiriority issues.
Crimbo - I am giving you a hallpass for one full week of fun only and freedom from worry! The fine print says you have to tell us only the things that were fun and uplifting!

If you start giving your kid the fine points now we'll see him out there someday in the finals. If you start showing him now, in about three years you guys can play one on one. Your height advantage negated by your lack of bball game!

Indiana huh? have you made a pilgrimage to French Lick? Being from Boston that's kind of a holy place for us.
In need of some guidance/direction/advice here. Not sure if I am detached enough to look at this objectively.

So s turns 2 on Friday. I have decided to take the day off. W has day off as well and her mother is going to be in town (my relationship with her is good still). W tells me today that Friday morning they (w and mil) are going to take him to a train park in town. I ask if it's OK if I go - w seems reluctant and does not give a "yes". She basically says she'll have to see what her mom wants to do when she gets here. After the call, I texted her and said "It's not a problem, I don't have to go to the train park". She texts back "I want his grandma to have his undivided attention. She is only here for the weekend". I pulled a MAJOR "act as if" and said "No problem at all - I am sure you guys will have a lot of fun!".

I guess W, MIL and SIL will be going to another park later in the day with him to do the birthday celebration (cake, gifts). THAT I am allowed to go to - which is fine. I have gone out of my way to NOT try to interfere with my wife's plans or take control of what is going on.

My heart hurts because I really wanted to spend more quality time with my son on his birthday - that's why I took off work. I will be able to see him at the second "park event" but I am guessing that is all I will get.

I feel like I am missing a lot of cool events. Thanksgiving fell on w's custody day, she set the rules for when I could see him. Ditto on Christmas. Now his birthday falls on her custody day and I feel as if I am being limited to when I can see him. I feel if roles were reversed that she would feel the same way I do.

I'm his father - not some random. Am I being too sensitive here? If that is the case, please bring on the 2x4's. I feel like she has an ideal picture of what the day should be like and my presence would just hose it up. I get that she wants her mom to have his attention - but am I that big of a distraction? The kid is turning 2 - loud noises still get his attention!

I feel like I am being closed-out as a father.

Crimson
I understand your feelings here but it is important for you to keep your focus on the "goal". Go with the flow for this event. You could always have a separate event with your S on a different day. Or simply make the most of the time you do have with him on his b-day.

Just don't lost sight of the "goal".
Posted By: labug Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 03/29/12 03:46 AM
S really has no idea when or what his birthday is. He may like having 2 really fun, out of the ordinary days.

Don;t make it about you, make it about him.
Posted By: labug Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 03/29/12 01:22 PM
Differing opinions, GM, differing opinions. Both can be right; there is no one true answer.
Posted By: labug Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 03/29/12 01:27 PM
...or wrong or totally inaccurate or not cogent or misguided. They're all just opinions born of experience.
Posted By: Mach1 Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 03/29/12 01:57 PM
I think that there should be a balance somewhere in the middle of the two....

Crimson....

Did you relay that you were taking the day off to her before you did it ???

Or did you just expect that you were gonna get that time with him ?

What does your agreement say about holidays and birthdays ?


IF.....you told her what you were planning, then I would say something to her...( like GM has said )

IF....you didn't ? Then I think you should have sooner...



GM....You certainly know how frustrating it is when your time with Gabby has been planned for you...and seems out of your hands...

Also keep in mind that Crimsons parents had that same (undivided) time with him for a couple months recently. And it was a point of contention between them.


Also, I agree with your thoughts on Crim speaking up more, I think that this particular topic has a lot of "if's" involved...
Posted By: labug Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 03/29/12 02:10 PM
You look at the goal, which is reconciling.

No actually, I was thinking of what's going to make this little boy happy. I don't think, unless I misread, that Crim is being excluded from the whole day. I understood it was the morning trip to the park that was with her family.
So I did tell her a few days ago that I was planning on taking the day off. Not so sure if it registered at all.

As mentioned in my first post, I am not cut off 100%. There IS a get together planned for later that day that I am welcomed to that w pretty much planned. I just don't think I will get much time before or after that.....though nothing has been confirmed.

She knows I want to be there. I have made that clear. That's all I can really do. Could I fight and complain my way into going? Probably. But as I see it, that is nothing more than what she expects of me and if I DID do that it would just cast a negative spin on the whole event - she would be resentful the whole time.

As the clock winds down, I know it is time for me to speak up a bit more. We have our first "date" with just the two of us scheduled for next week. I am just going to leave it to her to bring up any R talk prior to that point. I figure that will be a good time to get a sense of the temperature.

Maybe something will happen tomorrow and I will get more time on his birthday than I thought. At a bare minimum, I will get to see him - just not as much as I would want.

Crimson
GM - as far as input goes, we discussed going to a park and I was OK with that. It was her idea. Other than that I haven't really been asked for a lot of input. I have asked what we are going to do about food and as of yesterday she said she didn't know and that she would figure it out when her mom got here. I am getting the cake.

Really, I don't know if it is worth me kicking up a lot of dirt right now. Honestly, at this stage I feel as though I am in a very, very, VERY sensitive spot with regard to timing.

Crimson
Posted By: Mach1 Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 03/29/12 02:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Crimson
GM - as far as input goes, we discussed going to a park and I was OK with that. It was her idea. Other than that I haven't really been asked for a lot of input. I have asked what we are going to do about food and as of yesterday she said she didn't know and that she would figure it out when her mom got here. I am getting the cake.


So .....how would the Crimson of old have handled this ?

Just curious....

Originally Posted By: GM
There is a balance between fighting and complaint, and expressing your feelings.

And if you have expressed how this makes you "feel", then just do whatever you think from there.


^^^^^^yep


I'm taking the day off Friday.....



Is very different from....



I'm taking the day off Friday to spend Crim Jr's birthday with him...I know it's your day with him, although I would like to be included in whatever plans you have made....





Expressing your expectations first, will relieve a lot of your frustrations....


Unmet expectations, because they are unspoken, are on your shoulders buddy.....
Originally Posted By: Crimson
Really, I don't know if it is worth me kicking up a lot of dirt right now. Honestly, at this stage I feel as though I am in a very, very, VERY sensitive spot with regard to timing.


This ^^^ is what I was thinking when I said that you needed to keep the "goal" in mind. I agree that the sitch at this moment is precarious. You need to navigate these choppy waters very carefully. There will come a time when you can and will need to be more assertive. Now is not the time in my opinion.
I tend to agree with you, 2TP. If we were at a different place right now I am fairly certain my actions/approach would be different. Granted, the time is coming where we have to make a call one way or the other.

GM - I see and do not disagree with your point. You are correct that I need to assert myself a bit more in these situations - and I will when the time is right. Right now I just feel like I need to play it cool for a bit. Regardless, I am never going to relegate myself to doormat status.

Mach - I could have expressed my expectations better.

Crimson
Hey Mach -

Didn't answer your question.

The "old" Crimson would have done one of two things. I would have either vehemently stressed why I wanted to be there and try to get her to see my way and say it was OK for me to be there. OR I would have sulked and just given her the silent treatment in the hopes of letting her know she hurt my feelings. Pathetic, but very honest and very true.

Also, to your point, as stated above I could have been more direct in letting her know my desire to spend time with him on his birthday. I did just say that I was taking the day off - I assumed she would realize why and what the purpose was. Again - commuication flaw in my part.

Crimson
Posted By: Mach1 Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 03/29/12 06:25 PM
Originally Posted By: Crimson
Hey Mach -

Didn't answer your question.

The "old" Crimson would have done one of two things. I would have either vehemently stressed why I wanted to be there and try to get her to see my way and say it was OK for me to be there. OR I would have sulked and just given her the silent treatment in the hopes of letting her know she hurt my feelings. Pathetic, but very honest and very true.

Also, to your point, as stated above I could have been more direct in letting her know my desire to spend time with him on his birthday. I did just say that I was taking the day off - I assumed she would realize why and what the purpose was. Again - commuication flaw in my part.

Crimson


Thank you for your honesty....

My point is....don't be afraid of communicating how you feel. Good AND bad. She needs to see a different side to the bad too. And in these future situations, make sure you express what you envision happening beforehand....saves a lot of self-inflicted pain.


So...make the most of the day...

Maybe trade for another day off with him...

Follow it up at a later day, and tell her what you told us....

That you made an assumption based on your expectations...that you forgot to relay...



Tell the little dude "Happy Birthday" for me...

: )
In the end Crimbo you are living in so much expectation that these individual sitches have a way of exploding out of control on you emotionally or create a monstrous amount of worry or inner dialogue.

I can understand why. You want so much for a second chance with your W and a family unit for you all. And you have so much possibility here, she seems to be turning back to you and family. How could anyone not be so hopeful when so close to a R? You would have to be dead not to feel that.

Maybe you just keep telling yourself where you are and that's the only place you have control. You have yourself, a much more self aware, honest, loving guy, who has a propensity to be a worry wart. You have this wonderful little boy who thinks the world of you. You have this woman you love that may or may not be your next M life. That's it, you can't control anything else.

Because you're so close to your desired goal you wrap youself up with so much worry about what do I say, what do I do, how do I appear? At some point you just have to say f it, I know who I am, I know where my truth lies, and just politely say what you feel. It seems like this DB stuff can sometimes get in the way of living from the heart. I think you handled it well, you just didn't communicate it well. No big deal, you could just tell, ooops I didn't express it well, my bad, carry on with your plans W. I think she will be happier about a more laid back, laughing, carefree, loving goofball, than some anal-worry wart. You know that [censored] didn't work for you. It's not you, it was just a BS habit like all of us create over the years as a summation of choices. Keep choosing the new way. Read your old posts some day and you'll see the tru progression of a guy out a horrible mindbox into a mush more here and now happy life. Keep that as your goal, and all the rest works out!
my typing/spelling continues to fail me...I wish there was a spell check!
Originally Posted By: Crimson
In need of some guidance/direction/advice here. Not sure if I am detached enough to look at this objectively.

Crimson

I have not bothered to read the rest of this before I know to tell you the answer to this^^ question. NO you are not detached enough to look at this or whatever she said or did, objectively...now I'll read the rest.


So s turns 2 on Friday. I have decided to take the day off. W has day off as well and her mother is going to be in town (my relationship with her is good still). W tells me today that Friday morning they (w and mil) are going to take him to a train park in town. I ask if it's OK if I go - w seems reluctant and does not give a "yes".


I wish you had not asked to go. Did you have the day scheduled for you w/him or both or what? I mean are you giving something UP without her asking you? It sounds as if that's not the case.



She basically says she'll have to see what her mom wants to do when she gets here. After the call, I texted her and said "It's not a problem, I don't have to go to the train park". She texts back "I want his grandma to have his undivided attention. She is only here for the weekend". I pulled a MAJOR "act as if" and said "No problem at all - I am sure you guys will have a lot of fun!".


I'm so glad you replied that way!! What a good 180 for you. BTW, I can totally see why she'd want just s with her mother. When he's with you, YOU get his attention, right?

Why make the MIL compete with that? My mom loves my son, probably more than most of the other grandkids, to tell you the truth. She took him out, one on one, every Sunday for years. They had pancakes at a local diner.

They still treasure that time. As my mother ages with advancing dementia, those Sundays are some of the few memories SHE STILL recalls vividly. Think about it.


I guess W, MIL and SIL will be going to another park later in the day with him to do the birthday celebration (cake, gifts). THAT I am allowed to go to - which is fine. I have gone out of my way to NOT try to interfere with my wife's plans or take control of what is going on.

My heart hurts because I really wanted to spend more quality time with my son on his birthday - that's why I took off work. I will be able to see him at the second "park event" but I am guessing that is all I will get.


But did you arrange for more time with him, ahead of time? Did you say anything to your w about it? It's on her day...so did you simply expect her to share all of it with you or what? I don't know the situation so it's hard to comment here

other than saying not to read into this.

Like Gabby says, there's nothing your w can say or do without you getting that microscope on and staring at it.

And your microscope has a 'dark negative lens" too.


The whole "clean floor" comment says more about how SHE felt around you in the past, (and maybe how you behaved) than about how she feels now.

Lesson learned? Check! Now moving on...

Your reply to that was pretty good too. If you think there's some validity to her perspective, and I think you do, you can admit you were too OCD or whatever you want to call it. I can see how it happens too.

My h is an MD who works in the operating room. There are days he comes home and looks around upon entering, and I swear it's like he's looking at monitors to see if the patient is dying -- only it's US and our house he's looking at. God forbid if he finds something not done...(and God help him if he comments!)


I feel like I am missing a lot of cool events. Thanksgiving fell on w's custody day, she set the rules for when I could see him. Ditto on Christmas. Now his birthday falls on her custody day and I feel as if I am being limited to when I can see him. I feel if roles were reversed that she would feel the same way I do.


that's^^^ fair to note. Next time you check the custody schedule, look for that. Sounds like a pattern.

I'm Not sure when to note it, or how, but you have a point. How about addressing it with the MC?


I'm his father - not some random. Am I being too sensitive here? If that is the case, please bring on the 2x4's. I feel like she has an ideal picture of what the day should be like and my presence would just hose it up. I get that she wants her mom to have his attention - but am I that big of a distraction? The kid is turning 2 - loud noises still get his attention!

I think the mother in law getting time with him, is NOT her saying you'd "hose it up". That's a negative spin big time. Stop that.

She's saying (IMO) that your son will focus on YOU the most, at the expense of MIL. She wants her mom to bond with son and mil does not live nearby. No mystery here and mil is only there for 2 days.

And You're more fun than before, correct? isn't your son closer to you now? So your w probably has a point-you will distract him.

So on one hand, I get THAT part of this, ie the MIL and time with son...I can wrap my head around that just fine...

But the TIMING stinks for you...so I'm conflicted.
You have to mention this in mc or somehow communicate it but carefully and in person. If there's no MC coming up then go yourself and ask how to say it since the c knows her and we don't.


I feel like I am being closed-out as a father.

Crimson


You are more involved as a father than you were before, remember? (You said you were grateful for that.)

Don't get amnesia now.

But when you communicate how you feel about the day and feeling shut out unfairly,

try to use it as a demonstration of how

you two can communicate better now. How you can resolve a conflict and address some hurt feelings...differently than before

OR

lose your temper and do a major backslide.

I'm not saying be a doormat. I AM saying to speak up for yourself...

I'm saying do it with care.

25 and others,

I did not specifically map out a plan to spend today with S. We had been getting along so well lately I figured that maybe she would be OK if I participated in whatever they had planned for his birthday. I didn't feel as if I was crashing something that was uniquely "theirs" - it was/is about our son.

That said, it's my fault for assuming. I got my hopes up falsely and lost sight of the fact that we are still in the middle of a D. Well, more like near the end, not the middle. I understand that she wanted the time for her mom. I will respect that even though it is heartbreakingly painful to be missing out on my son really enjoying himself.

W sent pictures of him eating ice cream, riding a carousel. It was a mixed emotion reaction. On the one hand, I was so happy to see him having fun. On the other, my stomach sunk knowing that I was missing it.

By now he is probably taking his nap, and we are all going to gather after he wakes up and gets put together. W asked me to stop and pick up food - not a problem.

Having a child was a three year battle for us filled with a lot of emotional lows and dark days. I view his birthday not just as a celebration of him joining this world, but also as a day a victory, happiness and unbelievable accomplishment for me and my w. If anyone has ever been through the pain of infertility, you can probably relate. I got a gift and a card for my son, but I also bought a card for my w - just something to make her feel good about all that we went through to have our little guy. These days, I have found myself being more appreciative of family and emotions than I ever have in my life. Maybe a few years too late, but I am getting there.

I referred to the evening that I planned for my wife and I next weekend as a "date". Man, I think that was a bad idea. She texted and said she "wasn't sure if she could handle that". That pretty much made my heart sink. Now I am wondering if she will bail on the whole evening. One of the complaints that she had was that we never went out and did new things together.....maybe this is a 180 that blew up in my face? It's been bothering me all morning. UGH.

Crimson
Just typing to clear my head.

Well, we all met up at the park yesterday. We had a nice picnic, did cake and gifts - it was a good time. MIL was very kind and seemed genuinely happy to see me gave me a kiss hello and good bye. W and I walked to the playground with s and just had a great time with him - he loved the attention and laughed the whole time. At one point I was pushing him on one swing and w on the other. S eventually got tired and we all went our separate ways. Later that night I got a text from my w saying "thanks for making the day so special". I thanked her back. I was sad to miss the first part of the day, but the second part completely took my mind off of it.

So as luck would have it, my car had been acting weird and on the way to the park my "check engine" light came on. The last thing I need right now is a car repair - but I am not going to put my s in an unsafe vehicle - that's for sure. W texted me that she could meet me at the mechanic this morning and take me back home (luckily, my parents car is still in the garage for me to use). She met me up there and s was out cold in the back of her car. We had a nice chat on the way back about work and everything. Nice, but I felt sort of uneasy.

Finally when she dropped me off it began to hit me that we are reaching the end of the hourglass. Part of me feels I need to have a talk with her and ask her what her plans are. If she plans on seeing the D through to the end. Sometimes I think that we are getting along so well that she would like to walk away from it, and others I think we are getting along because she just wants to co-parent and is still planning on the D. Not a word has been spoken about our frozen embryo since the visit to the doctor.

Pretty sure that we will all meet up at church tomorrow morning, then I get s back later in the day. Hope things go well. I can feel myself getting unnecessarily edgy these days. GAL-wise, I am trying to make plans with some friends tonight to go do something.

Crimson
E-Mail from wife today

"As Much as I have loved all the compliments, flowers, kind words, and hearing about your transformation, my heart still is closed off. I wish I could force it open to you, but I am not able to. I am proceeding forward but I always stay open that if feelings could come back or maybe someday we could be on the same page. I'm guessing once divorced, you will not want to work on relationship anymore, and I understand that too."

Well, I guess I don't have to keep speculating anymore, huh? We have a hearing on 5/3 and it's a wrap 5/8. My heart it broken, but I am still not ready to give up. I just don't know what to do right now. She seems to want me to keep working on R still - and I will, just will be hard.

It felt like we were making good progress. Just don't know where to go from here. I am not wailing out loud at all, but I can't stop the tears from falling right now.

Crimson
Posted By: labug Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/02/12 06:23 PM
So sorry, Crimson.
Crimson,

So sorry to hear this. Praying for you.
Quote:
"As Much as I have loved all the compliments, flowers, kind words, and hearing about your transformation, my heart still is closed off. I wish I could force it open to you, but I am not able to. I am proceeding forward but I always stay open that if feelings could come back or maybe someday we could be on the same page. I'm guessing once divorced, you will not want to work on relationship anymore, and I understand that too."


Crimson - I know that your heart is broken and I'm truly sorry for how you are feeling. If it helps any, from an outsiders point of view, I still see opportunity for you and your W in what she stated in her message to you.

First, her comment about always staying open if you two can get on the same page seems like a crack in the door to me. Second, her final statement about guessing you are not wanting to work on the relationship anymore once divorced seems like a challenge, maybe even a test, cruel as it may seem.

To my mind, she has seen your changes or what she termed "transformation" but she doesn't trust it. The flowers, kind words, compliments, etc. are key components of pursuit and she is likely viewing it as such. I totally understand how and why you felt it was the right thing to do under the circumstances but clearly she is not ready.

So now the question is can you go forward and continue to demonstrate for your W that the changes are for real. That, your transformation is sustainable. That, you do wish to make your changes permanent and put her and the baby first and foremost.

These are the things I think she is looking for and you have to decide if you have the strength to carry on or if it is time to drop the rope.

My question to you now is what are you going to do that is different now that you have this new bit of information?
Crimson, 2TP, makes a good point. (pardon the pun)

That statement does seem like a challenge of some sort from your wife. I think you just need to stay the course and keep doing what you've been doing. The D is not final yet. You still have "some" time.

Regardless of what happens, she needs to know that the new/improved Crimson is here to stay!
So sorry man I know how it feels. Keep standing if that is what you want.
So sorry Crimson. Although this doesn't mean you will never R w/ your wife I can only imagine how difficult it was to get that email.

We're here with you!
2TP and others,

Thanks for the words of support. I, too, saw openings in her e-mail, but didn't want to call them out thinking that I was just seeing what I wanted to see.

I don't have the desire to give up right now. In fact, I really believe if I did, all that I would be doing is validating her belief that I just wanted to avoid divorce and nothing else.

I will do my best to absorb this blow and keep moving forward. It is going to take a hell of a lot for me to project happy and positive - but I'll work at it.

My heart is breaking, but I really need to be strong for my son. I never wanted him to have this life - and I hope it isn't forever - but I know he needs me.

I'm struggling to figure out what to do right now, how to proceed. My natural inclination is to just isolate myself from her and withdraw. I have a feeling that that wouldn't help matters much.I just kind of feel emotionally paralyzed at the moment.

Could it really be that she is looking to see if I would still want a R after divorce? To see if I REALLY have changed and am dedicated to our marriage, to putting her first, and to our relationship?

I don't know what to do if she starts dating. I partially suspect that she won't anytime soon, but that would rip the heart right out of me. And really, who knows? She is a beautiful woman and I can't imagine that she won't have men lining up once people know she is no longer married.

Thanks everyone for listening.

Crimson
Originally Posted By: 2thepoint

My question to you now is what are you going to do that is different now that you have this new bit of information?


Sorry - didn't answer your question 2TP. Honestly, I don't know WHAT to do. I think asking her to do things is out of the question at this point. I guess I need to get reconcilliation out of my head and focus on me for awhile.

I know that the RIGHT thing to do is to present to her like none of this impacts me - like today is no different than any day last week. That is a pretty big "act as if" - but I will do my best with it.

I'm conflicted - the level of openess we have been able to establish seemed really good, as if we made progress. Part of me says that is the path to stay on. It's hard to do when I know she looks at me and sees and feels nothing.

So I guess the answer is that I will try to keep doing what I have been doing. I will try to act as if I am going to be OK and move on with my life. I just don't know how successful I will be at it. Hard to think straight right now.

Crimson
Posted By: NLW Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/03/12 12:55 AM
Crimson,

From an outsider's perspective, your W seems to be one of those who need to do the D in order to move themselves forward. My H seems to pin his hopes on D making everything better. Until he does it, I don't think he'll be able to look inside himself to address the turmoil he's in.

If your W didn't go through with it, she'd probably always have doubts about whether she should have. And you'd probably find yourself back here even after a reconciliation.

Having said that, it also seems as if she is likely to benefit greatly from seeing your actions over a much longer time frame.

She seems, still, to class your changes as strategic - as well-intentioned but inauthentic. She still thinks of you as the old you, and she can't see herself married to that guy.

My gut says she'll see you differently with time. But she needs you to pull back, big-time, now.

You have to show that you've heard her. You've got to show her that you accept that she doesn't want to reconcile at this point.

I've been struggling with my H on this, too. He thinks I just don't listen to him when he says he's not coming back.

And now he's too afraid to have anything to do with me lest I get 'the wrong impression'.

Don't do anything to let your W think that you're living with 'false hope'.

As for what you'll want to do once divorced - who knows?

And as for her dating, again, as you say - who knows?

I think the main thing to do at this stage is to show her (by your actions) that you have listened and that you accept what she is telling you.

So sorry that this has happened, but her email doesn't sound anything like the end of the road to me.
Thanks, NLW. I appreciate your insights.

I pretty much feel as though I am not ready to give up yet - even after the seemingly inevitable D transpires. Today I really didn't communicate much at all after I received the e-mail and responded to it.

I asked myself what do I feel like doing - and then did the exact opposite. What I WANTED to do was withdraw and be sad....go away from her and let her KNOW that I am going away from her. Instead, at the end of the day I sent her a quick message saying that I hoped her day went well. I told her that I wasn't mad and that I respected her decision. I said that I was happy with the progress we'd been able to make after all that has happened - that I wanted to build on the positive pieces of our relationship that we were able to find - even if it means we end up nothing more than coparents.

That was hard to say - very hard. But it seemed like the right thing to do seeing how she fully expects me to not want to work on our relationship after the D.

I guess that leads me to wonder does SHE want to work on the R after the D? I don't see/understand/believe that she would - but like NLW said, maybe she just needs to do it so she won't be left wondering "what if".

I'm hurting tonight, but I am still determined to keep my family. I have my S, and that is a start.

Crimson
.....thanks all for giving me support, encouragement and hope.
Posted By: jks Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/03/12 02:59 AM
So sorry about your situation. I am hurting tonight as well and feel your pain. You have done so well, you should be so proud of that.
That's very unfortunate. Sorry, C. I had my money on it not happening, though there were some mixed messages along the way. I still see a crack in the veneer, though. And in a twisted way, there is something positive in at least knowing how she feels -- right now.

Now I'm torn between the idea of continuing on as you are, because a good relationship between the two of you even as co-parents is the best thing for your son, and alternatively considering going dark for a while. That might be appropriate, but I'm fearful that would just confirm her suspicions, even though it's not true. So I guess keeping on is the right thing for now. Only you can decide when it's time to cut and run, and it doesn't sound like you're there at all now, thankfully.

Better days to come. (((C)))
i totally agree with NWL. My d. is probably going to be done in a couple of weeks. We have no kids together. We are in the middle of ugly $ property settlement issues. We never see each other, talk mostly by email, only about d. But you know what, time is our friend. Who knows how h. is going to feel when he moves back into empty house. I don't think ow, but even that can come and go. I was m. 17 years. They say 1 month for every year. Could take a couple of years for me. If it ever happens. But I am trying to know I will be ok. I am thinking you need to do some detachment, but I am new to this, so I don't like giving advice. But, you have a little child, that will always bond you. You have opportunity for years to come to show the real new you. Hang in there!
Thanks. Had a text exchange with my wife tonight. Said she is heartsick and grieving. Said that I broke her heart. That hurts to hear. She said heartache and trying to heal is all she can handle for now.

Maybe I shouldn't have, but I asked her if it would be best if I stopped working on the relationship. She said she didn't know...that she doesn't have answers right now....that she is living one day at a time literally.

I guess it is time to figure my next move. I know I need to pull back - but going dark? Is that too much?

I'm pretty lost right now.

Crimson.
But to me that shows she has some feeling for you. The vets need to step in here, but I feel your pain. I feel like my h. is not affected one bit by this. All business. She is at least feeling something. Which says to me maybe she's conflicted. You still have a shot in my opinion. .02 cents worth. Maybe just don't have so many r talks right now. I get her one day at a time thing. You should too.
Posted By: NLW Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/03/12 04:37 AM
Crimson,
I'd listen and accept what she says, but I would not continue to pressure her with questions about what you should do.

She is focused on her own survival at this point. She has no ability to look beyond getting through each day.

Sorry to be blunt, but I think you really need to back off.

How did you show her you were really listening when she said: "heartache and trying to heal is all she can handle for now"?

Calm down a bit, take time, and believe what she tells you.

"she doesn't have answers right now" - so there is no point asking questions.

Give her time to heal.

You can do this!
Crimson, the fact that she's still confused is a plus on your side. I'm sorry if I don't remember, but have you tapped into her love language? Only contact her to demonstrate ur LLs to her. ABSOLUTELY NO R TALK!! THAT'S AN ORDER! And continue w GALs!! Crimson, you have a 1yr old BOY! He'll never be one again. Enjoy him! Focus on being the best dad by lifting up your self esteem/confidence. Be the man you want your son to be!

W loves you but she's like an alcoholic right now. She's so wrapped up she doesn't know how to get out. Allow her the opportunity to get herself out of this sitch. Allow her to make her mistakes so she can learn from them.

rest well tonite. tomorrow is another DB day smile
Posted By: nhmom Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/03/12 01:06 PM
C,

Sorry you're hurting. And you're W is hurting, too. Did you validate what she said, by the way?

As hard as it is, do not bring up R or D talk. Do not ask her what you should do. You're smothering her and putting pressure on her.

She is hurting. That shows that she still cares about you.

She said that she's grieving. Let her grieve. Give her all the time she needs to get through this. Let her do it on her own terms.

She said she's taking it one day at a time. That doesn't mean it's the end. That's a positive. Again, give her time and space. Do not pressure her to make any decisions or even talk about R unless she brings it up. And if she does, then VALIDATE.

Take time to think about what you want to do. Spend with your S. Be sure you and your W are clear on the schedule to avoid potential misunderstandings or letdowns. Do something for yourself.

Hang in there. It's not over until the fat lady sings, right?
Thanks GM, NH and others.

Really, GM, you're not saying anything that is different from anyone else. Detach and get a life. That's the long and short of it.

I am trying to let her go as best I can - but somehow balance hope at the same time. All I know is that when I started to take a few steps towards her after she said she was open to it, she pretty much shut back down.

I woke up this morning feeling like it was day 1 all over again - vomiting, not wanting to get out of bed, wondering how I will make it through a day of work. The problems seem to keep mounting and I am losing the ability to stay focused.

I am trying to make the bet of it, but the hurt is fresh all over again. I will back away and let her be.

Crimson
She's still talking to you, that's a good thing. She hasn't said she has all the answers and wants nothing to do with you, that's an even better thing.

So, what now? First, if I could offer something from my own sitch. Perhaps it's just the difference between men and women, but it actually blows my mind that my H can do something very hurtful to me, and then 20 minutes later expect me to be just fine and interact with him like nothing ever happened. I, at least, don't work that way. I need time to process, to digest it, to "grieve" it as your W described. Meanwhile, he's bouncing around doing his normal thing because he is basically unaffected by what he did, and that actually makes me feel worse because it's as if his hurting me is no big deal. The process of GAL is the most difficult aspect of DB for me as a WAW, because it makes me feel like H is just fine, regardless of the fact that he's left me bloodied and bruised. Worse, he's just doing it as his natural self, not per some DB instruction.

For you, I'm concerned that going dark and GAL'g might just make your W feel worse and like it doesn't matter to you, especially in light of the fact that she shared with you "she is heartsick and grieving...that I broke her heart.... heartache and trying to heal is all she can handle for now... she didn't know...that she doesn't have answers right now....that she is living one day at a time literally." For you to go dark and GAL is the equivalent of you saying, "Bummer for you, but how does that affect me?"

If I said that to my H, I would want him to be bothered by it. I would want him to be AT LEAST as upset about it as I am, because he caused it in the first place. He should be riddled with pain, but also GUILT. I would want him to because then I wouldn't feel like I was going through it alone. Empathy and understanding doesn't look like going dark and GAL'g.

As for going forward, I think you should continue doing exactly what you're doing, but back off a little. I think your foremost desire to reconcile is actually getting in the way of her recovery. You're not "letting her go" so she can heal. Like the nurse that comes into a patient's room every hour and wakes them up to see how they're doing, when what the patient really needs is sleep. Accept the D without it being the end of the world. Just be the best man you can be and be available for her to see that, without trying to fabricate the "family" you miss so badly. She has to have time to heal, and part of that involves seeing long-term that you demonstrate that you recognize how you've hurt her and have changed to prevent it from happening again.

I have just a few more thoughts, but I need to run.
Crimson I can so relate to how hurt you are. I have a little one the same age as your son and "sharing" our kids on holidays is not cool. It's aweful.

I do try to put it in perspective. There are many children that have terrible illness, and many children with only one living parent. We do need tocount our blessings.

I have called the db coaches many times and have two coaches that I use. They have never recommended going dark. The gist of the their advice is usually 1. Validate 2. Show your changes without getting attached to the result.

You share custody of a 2 yr old so going dark would be very difficult and probably not best for your little one.


Your wife is doing a lot of second guessing on her own. Don't bring up the relationship or your feelings. You should be insanely busy this next month doing fun things. Show her by your actions that she is a fool.
So sorry Crimson,

Maybe the best way to work on the relationship right now is not to work on it? To some degree I feel you've been watching the pot waiting for the water to boil. Often the best way to handle that situation is not to watch the pot at all, but to check back later.

Accuray
Posted By: labug Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/03/12 02:42 PM
She knows you are willing, she knows where you are.
After reading posts and thinking, maybe pulling waaaaay back and not going dark would be best. She needs to heal, and whether I like it or not it would seem that I am an impedement to that process somehow.

As many of you have pointed out, she hasn't told me to eff off and just vanish. She has said she doesn't have answers, is living day to day and that I broke her heart. That her heart is closed off to me still despite my changes and validating her feelings. I will miss the progress we'd made - going out to eat as a family, going to church together, hanging out at the house now and then, but I think I need to roll all of that up right now and deal as best I can without engaging her anymore.

She said in her text last night that she feels that I will be fine one day when I re-marry. And that she hopes to find love and joy and have another baby - but has turned it all over to God. That's the first I have ever really heard her speak of "moving on" with someone else. That hurt. A lot.

I want to go GAL, but I am starting to fight that crushing depression that just paralyzes you where you stand. Got to fight it, and I will certainly try. I need to stay as busy as I can for my sake and the sake of my son.

It was this exact same time last month that she had her mini-emotional breakdown that came and went. In the inner recesses of my mind I am hoping that this is just round 2 of that and once the smoke clears this week she will be....."better".

Still, my heart continues to break for myself and for my son. I never wanted this life for him and never thought it would happen. I can handle being a single dad - I have had months of practice now, I just hate the incomplete feeling of w not being there with us. I hate when he looks at me out of the blue and asks "where did mommy go?". I have to get over that.

ACCURAY - you are right that I have adjusted the knobs and watched to see if the pot boils. Now that I know D is on the horizon, there really is no clock I am racing against. After it happens I really have nothing but time left. And in that time, if I want, I can stay on path or just walk away.

LA - Yes, she knows where I am and that I am willing. But maybe that is the problem. When I made myself scarce and "unknown" she seemed more interested....more willing to come back. When I engaged and made attempts, she ran. I did break her heart, it wasn't done knowingly or out of malice - but I am trying to make it right for her as best I can. Do I bother to stay visible?

BMOM - I felt that all of this time I was showing her through actions that she would be a fool to leave. There have been no fights, no arguments, good laughs, time shared, and feelings discussed and exchanged. It was a me she was not used to seeing - she hinted as much. It seems, though, she still is unmoved. Or, in her words, her heart is still closed to me and she can't force it open.

Could this just be a bad week? Emotions running high? Realizing the time is running out? It just weird, prior to this things were progressing slowly - but FORWARD.

Thanks, everyone. I feel this going to be one of those days when I over-post.

Crimson
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/03/12 04:39 PM
Quote:
I felt that all of this time I was showing her through actions that she would be a fool to leave. There have been no fights, no arguments, good laughs, time shared, and feelings discussed and exchanged. It was a me she was not used to seeing - she hinted as much. It seems, though, she still is unmoved. Or, in her words, her heart is still closed to me and she can't force it open.


What makes you think you failed in showing her she would be a fool to leave you? What we know in our head doesn't mean we feel it in our heart, and your W wants to feel what a W should feel for her H.

I believe that your W responded to your actions when she agreed to go to the MC sessions and invite you to share in times with S, and other things. I believe she was hoping that her heart would open up.

When you referred to your "date" with her and she wasn't ready for that, it was b/c she knew her heart was not going to the same place as yours.

I believe she sent as good a message in her email that she could do, and be truthful. It could have been much, much worse.

Crimson, do not go dark. Dark doesn't work when kids are involved. Forget dark. Back up and leave her alone. Let her see your friendship, and that's all.

Once she is free, and she has time to heal and grow, then hopefully, her heart will open for you. In the meantime, if she refers to you working on the R...you need to respond so that it indicates a "friends" R and not a MR. Hope you know how I mean that (kind of short on time to expound).

((hugs))
Gabby, I don't want to hijack the thread, but just a short response.

"GAL is not ... a strategy to make the other spouse see they can have their own lives and F-you, I'm just fine without you." I know it isn't supposed to be that, but from the WAS pov, it often seems that way. I've seen a number of posters here comment that their WAS said that their GAL evidenced that they were better off without them (the WAS.) I'm just saying there is inherent risk to the R with it and to go forward with that in mind.

"Crazyville, by you thinking that about your exH, you have the mindset of wanting to make him pay for what he has done to you." No, I don't want to make him pay. I want to know that what he did bothers him, on his own. That's difficult to see when his life hasn't skipped a beat. Crimson's W doesn't want to make him pay either -- she just wants to leave. Is that better? I suspect that given the option, C might "pay" whatever price his W set in order to have his family back. Reconciliation involves work, whether you call it forgiveness or restitution. Personally I think it involves a lot of both. In this case, the forgiveness is obvious, but what is the restitution for someone that doesn't want "payment" but just wants to leave?
Sandi -

"Let her see your friendship" - how? What do I do or not do? I don't think I can invite her to do things. I feel like there is really nothing I can do right now but sit here.

Crimson
I suspected that I would over-post today. Sorry, I guess it's cathartic.

Last night in her text she reiterated a theme that she has used a lot - telling me that I was miserable during our marriage and projected being miserable. Thing is, honest to God I never felt that way and somehow she feels that is 100% true. The days after our son was born were some of the happiest of my life - and I always told her that. She would reply "how come I can't see it?". Ergo, she felt I was miserable I guess. I never felt that way. How can she tell me how I feel? Let alone distance herself from me as a result.

She said last night that she hopes to find love and joy and have another baby - but she has put it in Gods hands. That's the first time she's mentioned moving on and it hit me hard. Why can't she find that with me?

I have owned and admitted my faults, done my best to make amends and change and somehow I am still repulsive to her emotionally.

I don't want to lose my marriage, my family - but it's coming and there seems to be little I can do to stop it. I feel like all of the progress that was made has just tanked.

Crimson
I have GM, and I do feel that she has some issues of her own that go all the way back to her childhood. I also know she has issues with depression - and indicated (albeit vaguely)that she is not taking anything for it anymore.

Before I found DB, I started down that path and realized that there is nothing I can do. She has to see the problem, admit it hers, tie it to our relationship and want to work together to get beyond it. Problem is, I can't make her do any of that - I know that now. Hence, I choose to focus on me and what I CAN do to change the dynamic of our relationship. Not sure if that has done me a lot of good right now.

I know I am really sounding like Debbie Downer today - and I apologize for it. I just feel like I am losing hope. I need to let her go and brace for all that is coming my way.

We were planning on taking son to an Easter Egg hunt Saturday - I have him. I am guessing it will just be me and s now. Also don't know how to handle church anymore. Enjoy going - but sitting together may be out of the picture.

Crimson
You're right, GM - sometimes in the midst of the downward spiral I feel that I am in at times I lose sight of the fact that there have been positives that have come out of this awful situation. I am madly in love with my little guy at home, and our relationship would be different if this wouldn't have happened. I also know for a fact that I am going to be a better husband, boyfriend, whatever - to someone based off of all of the things I see that I did wrong. In a perfect world, I'd get a chance to be a better husband to my W, but that is yet to be seen.

Funny - but two female friends/co-workers that know what is going on in my situation had a really sobering observation - maybe it's been stated here before - but they made it pretty clear. And it all boils down to one word: perspective.

If I look through my w's perspective, in a lot of regards she is trapped between two bad decisions. She can stay with me and NOT divorce and risk going back to where we were since she doesn't fully trust my changes for good. OR, she goes through with the divorce - which may not be something she is EXCITED about - but it gives her an out...relives pressure....eliminates commitment.

It's clear that she just doesn't trust that things would be different with me at this point - I guess it just will require more time. Based on that, she just won't be comfortable pulling the divorce petition right now - so she feels she has no choice but to move forward. Maybe there will be a chance to work on things after the fact. Maybe not.

Meh - just a theory, but it makes sense.

Crimson
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/03/12 10:40 PM
Over-post? Who ever heard of such?

Quote:
Sandi -

"Let her see your friendship" - how? What do I do or not do? I don't think I can invite her to do things. I feel like there is really nothing I can do right now but sit here.


Well in other words, if she ever says anymore about you may/may not want to continue working on the R, instead of automatically thinking of a marriage relationship, try to think of just being friends without any benefits of any type (including visiting together). The trick here is to talk as if the only R you will engage is friendship. When she sees you no longer look, talk, and act marriage R being restored, then she will cease to feel pressured or smothered. She will feel like you are setting her free.

I didn't mean for you invite her to things. I'm not talking about that type of friendship. Maybe I should say to be friend-ly to her. Think of how you would be friendly to a co-worker, neighbor, or second cousin. You just act nice & upbeat whenever they say something to you or you happen to run into them, but you don't have them over for supper. KWIM?

It will be difficult in the beginning b/c you've not thought of her in any way but wife. That's one reason you need to pull back all the way, except communicating about son......and then make sure whenever you initiate contact that it's extremely important and can't wait. I see LBH's do it all the time.....use their kids as an excuse to contact the WAW, but they aren't even aware of it and will argue with you that's not what they're doing.

Your W does a ton of texting to you! If she's still doing it since she's told you she plans to pursue D, then I suggest you not respond to the comments regarding the M, your feelings, or what she hopes to get in the future. It has been hashed and rehashed enough, you don't need to hear her desires about her future if you're not included. But, you don't have to be ugly about it, either.

I've read the advice from the others, so I might as tell you what I think you should do in the time you have left. Break the communication over the MR, D proceedings, what she thought you felt, etc. You don't have to make any "announcements" of your intentions, just stop discussing those things! If you wish to tell her that it's probably best if you don't get into a relationship discussion, then okay.

Only respond like I mentioned re your son. Do not make arrangements to see her and for gosh sakes don't ask her if you can be included in any of her plans (regarding son or not). You've got to cut those strings! She feels you've smothered her, so think of that whenever you're tempted.

Doing this right now and quickly just might have some degree of impact on her, just don't bank too much on it. But continuing to do the same as you've been doing? No way! MWD tells us if that isn't working, do what......change it. Again, I'm not saying to be nasty, cold or bad mannered. But live your life the way you would if you were already D. She needs to see how that would be for you....and for her.

Some tend to think you should continue to show her your changes have stuck. Yes, being a responsible & caring father, and whatever other things she might be able to tell.....but not any thing like you've done since she went to that first C session. It's no longer a test. I think it's time you do a little testing of your own, thus the advice I've just given. It's about the same advice I gave you when you first arrived on the DB board.
I'm sorry about your W's e-mail msg, Crimson. I have a few thoughts (some unrelated). I seem to dissent from some of the others that have chimed in so far.

1) Your W is operating on feelings. Because she does not have romantic feelings for you, she concludes that she should D you. When you pursued her recently (giving her flowers, words of affirmation, etc. etc.), and she did not "feel it" in return, she concluded this was a further sign that she needed to proceed with things and D you. You have learned (again) that pursuing does not "work" when the romance feeling-driven WAS is not "feeling" it for you.

Think about what led her to tiptoe towards you before this turnabout. Most likely, it was her fear of the D and all it entails. At some point in the last couple of weeks, the fear of being WITH you for life eternity, someone she does not feel it for, surpassed the fear of being WITHOUT you (the D) and all the other aspects of being D that she may fear.

She made her choice, in part from feeling pressure to be with someone she does not "feel" it for. Let her really FEEL her choice (not in a retributive way, but in a graciously accepting reality way). Do NOT be available to her. Be her gracious, attractive EX and a bang-up father to your S1. If she is to change her mind, it will be because she FEELS your (her) LOSS (from you letting her go), not because you will "win her over" through time. You tried that -- didn't "work."

BTW, your co-workers are right. When people are operating on feelings, they can get stuck in limbo when they are in an avoid-avoid conflict (don't want to get back with LBS, don't want to get D). Right now, she has greater avoidance for wanting to get back with you right now and hence wants to proceed to D. You address that avoidance by REMOVING yourself so that you don't need to be avoided, and you increase the fear of the D by making her feel the consequences of the D and life without you. (not in a punitive way, just by accepting it wholeheartedly, no more relationship talks, no more what ifs, just, yes, let's get divorced, honey, or even, how soon can we get divorced, honey).

2) If she asks you about "working on the relationship," you can be honest, "I'm a little confused, W. To me, working on the relationship does not mean getting divorced. That sounds more like breaking up to me. I get that S is what you want to do now to move forward with your life based on not feeling it for me. If that's how you feel, then I think it's best for me that I move on, because I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me. I wish you all the best, W."

She may get angry at you. She may blame you. She may get incredibly sad at you. Let her. These are her feelings. It is those very feelings that are most likely to bring her back to you after you let her go if anything will.

Also, the consequence of her choice (to D you) is that you are a free man and no longer attached to her. She does not have the right to expect you to do work on anything. You value yourself by saying I won't sit around and hope your feelings for me will change while I do backstands hoping to win you over. You have intrinsic value, Crimson. Don't sell yourself short, and others (including her) are more likely to see it.
BTW, it's pretty rotten of her to communicate this info to you via e-mail. You gave her more of a pass on this than I would have.

Shows a lack of respect for you and/or fear of you in my opinion. My guess is the latter, she's operating on alot of anxiety and fear.
Busto & Sandi -

You are effectively saying the same thing - and I do not disagree with you because pulling back worked intially - it brought her back to the table for a bit. But let me tell you what my fear is.

Pulling back could say to her "so, as soon as I said divorce you took off - that just proves that you were just 'changing' to get me back". Would NOT asking her to breakfast with me and S or other things be "more of the same"? That's what I perceive "you won't want to work on the relationship" to mean. I guess what I am asking is could this backfire?

Crimson
I see Sandi and I were typing at the same time and we offer similar advice on many counts.

If what your W means by working on the relationship is to work on a CIVIL relationship (i.e., non-romantic/non-marital), then by all means, yes. It is important that you clarify for yourself and for her, though, that that is all it should be about for you. No hanging on hoping/striving for a change of heart from her.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/03/12 11:26 PM
Another one of those posts that everything is so relevant:

Originally Posted By: sandi2
... you need to pull back all the way, except communicating about son......and then make sure whenever you initiate contact that it's extremely important and can't wait. I see LBH's do it all the time.....use their kids as an excuse to contact the WAW, but they aren't even aware of it and will argue with you that's not what they're doing.

Your W does a ton of texting to you! If she's still doing it since she's told you she plans to pursue D, then I suggest you not respond to the comments regarding the M, your feelings, or what she hopes to get in the future. It has been hashed and rehashed enough, you don't need to hear her desires about her future if you're not included. But, you don't have to be ugly about it, either.


I will spotlight the above though...

Crimson, the communicating with my W only about the kids and specifically about the kids only when and as necessary, as opposed to an excuse... that was one of the hardest things, for me...

Well, along with not getting sucked into convo with my W on other stuff...

Here's how it worked, for me... it is still ongoing...

My W contacts me about the kids, even when (according to the SA as most of everything is listed in there) it is unnecessary...

The past two weekends my W has been asking me when I am picking up and dropping off the kids... I respond and tell her, but it's in the SA in black and white...

But there's usually something else in the messages... any number of things... generally just "FYIs" and stuff, but nothing that I necessarily need to know about and if I were the one to ask, I would likely be told it's none of my business... sometimes it seems like it is just bait... no matter what, the hardest part for me had been to only respond to the necessary kids stuff and nothing else...

and yet she continues to do the same... more than six months, maybe closer to nine plus, after I finally began this behaviour in earnest...

I just can't stress how important it is to not get sucked into that stuff... and yet how very difficult it is... it might seem like you are being cold...

but I can tell you this... in my sitch, my W still telling me that her life is none of my business... but then she pries into mine and shares portions of her's... and I don't want to know...

I did not go to a sporting event for my oldest this past weekend because I knew that my W would be there with the friends she is trying to hide from me... when she found out that was my reason for not going... she was pissed at me... crazy Really...?

IDK... My W seems different than your W in that mine appears to at least be having a mild MLC in some of the bizarre logic that I witness, sometimes... Yes, my W's logic and feelings need to be respected and validated... but your W is at least consciously and actively aware and behaving in ways that she is trying...

The go away / come here words and behaviours is conscious for your W...

So what I'm trying to say here is, I think you don't need to fear that you moving forward on your own, is going to somehow be the reason your W forgets about you or what the two of you had... or might have...

From day one, my W has avoided talking about D... a year and a half later... she still won't... she's even put it out there and when I said I WOULD talk to her about it (and I'm OK if it happens), she doesn't bring it up again... crazy

Give her the space she seems to want... until she files... she hasn't filed and there's no guarantee she will...

Hope that makes sense...
Originally Posted By: Crimson
But let me tell you what my fear is.

Pulling back could say to her "so, as soon as I said divorce you took off - that just proves that you were just 'changing' to get me back". Would NOT asking her to breakfast with me and S or other things be "more of the same"?


Here are my thoughts:

1) If you do it right, pulling back and say, "W, I get that you have felt smothered and feel like you need to move forward with the D since you don't have feelings for me the way you would like to. I totally get that and how you would feel that way. I'm not sure what you mean by working on our relationship, though, since we would be D and that would be ending our marital relationship. Am I missing something? Or did you mean working on our non-marital relationship. I am all for that, of course."

And see what she says. If she wants to work on a romantic relationship, that is something I would want to think seriously about it (and you should say so). You have value in this, Crimson, not just her. You're risking alot to contemplate working on a romantic relationship with someone who wants to proceed all the way to D you. I can see alot of frustration and heartache in that. If she wants you, let her pursue you to get you back.

It also is not at all clear to me what she means by "working on our relationship." That may or may not involve a romantic relationship. She might just mean for you guys to have a positive co-parenting or friendly relationship or she doesn't like the idea of losing you altogether even if she breaks up with you.

That's part of the confusion I suggested you express to her in saying, look this doesn't make much sense to me. I don't D someone that I see myself wanting to work on a romantic relationship with. (does it really make sense to you????).

You should totally be on board with wanting a positive friendly relationship with her, though. The issue is that YOU should not be doing ANY of the pursuing. I don't think you are in a position to do so honestly from the perspective of a friend relationship. It needs to be coming from her, her making hints about meeting at church, her calling you to spend time together with S1, etc. Once you are D, the reality is that you are not obligated to do these family things with her (unless that is how you would like your life to be from here on out, of course). In other words, truly live as if you were ex-es. That is her choice and your reality. Let her have her emotional reaction to that. It is her choice and her natural consequences that you would then be her ex. And that the 3 of you might not do things together very much at all anymore. If she doesn't want an ex and the breakup of her family, she shouldn't D you. Not punitive, reality. Her choice to interpret it as she wishes.


2) I don't see how you not seeking her out is you changing back. You'll still be the best Crimson you can be and friendly when you see her.
KD - She has, in fact, filed. She did it less than two weeks after dropping the bomb in September. She wasn't screwing around. WHAM, BAM!

Let me say that I am very thankful for the advice that I have received here today. It really does help me get my head on a little better.

So, Let me summarize what I think I need to do.

1.) Do not give up yet
A. This does not mean "pursue"
B. This DOES mean try something different or go back to what worked/works

2.) Give her more space
A. Realize that trying to be more involved was unintentionally smothering
B. Dial back the texting to essentials
C. Kill the "asking her to do things" stuff

3.) Pursue a "friend" relationship

All of this is going to be kind of hard. To be honest, it was after MC and her opening up and saying that she would be receptive to trying to do things together that got me on that path. Hell, she even invited me to do things. Regardless, I need to man up and admit that I went too far too fast.

I gotta tell ya' - dropping off s at her condo tonight was tough. I came through the door, out him in his highchair, put his bib on and was ready to go. W invited me to have a seat - I said "nah, I had better get going". She wrapped a cookie that she had baked in a paper towel and handed it to me for the road. I gave my boy a peck, hit the door, made it half way to my car in the parking lot......aaaand then cried like Ben Stiller at the end of There's Something About Mary. Yep - that bad. But I'll be d@mned if I'm going to do that in front of W.

I hate having to give him back. It's like a cruel joke, ya' know? Struggle for three years to bring a child into this world, have him for 16 months and then *POOF* half of your time with him is gone and now he has two homes. The knife is twisted by the fact that the more time you spend with him, the more you fall in love with him, bond with him - and the harder it is to let him go.

W texted me a bit ago that he already fell asleep and must have been tired. *SIGH*, why does she send those messages?

Anyhoo - thanks all, you have been a Godsend today.

Crimson
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/04/12 03:33 AM
oh right, sorry crimson I forgot she filed early. Not sure if the two of you have to do any more paperwork on the D so in that case, until the court stamps the papers... it ain't over yet...

And yes, your post above is about right from where I sit...
Originally Posted By: Crimson

So, Let me summarize what I think I need to do.

1.) Do not give up yet
A. This does not mean "pursue"
B. This DOES mean try something different or go back to what worked/works

2.) Give her more space
A. Realize that trying to be more involved was unintentionally smothering
B. Dial back the texting to essentials
C. Kill the "asking her to do things" stuff

3.) Pursue a "friend" relationship


I might phrase it as Accept a "friend" relationship, IF you are willing to be that. Also, difference between friend and friendly. The difficulty with a friend relationship is you may get stuck in the friend zone. If you are ok with that then, for sure go for it. You DEFINITELY want to be friendly, warm, funny. You also don't want to be TOO available to her, even as a friend.

I think you left out the two most important ones:

4) Be a kick ass dad when you have S.

5) GAL by yourself, ESPECIALLY when you do not have S turning as much focus as possible to yourself and S. Busy, exciting, and interesting things for yourself, if possible with activities that include the opposite sex (to give yourself confidence/mojo, not bed partners).

Originally Posted By: crimson
I hate having to give him back. It's like a cruel joke, ya' know? Struggle for three years to bring a child into this world, have him for 16 months and then *POOF* half of your time with him is gone and now he has two homes. The knife is twisted by the fact that the more time you spend with him, the more you fall in love with him, bond with him - and the harder it is to let him go.


Sure does suck. Know that she probably experiences the same if not stronger. Gives some perspective about how unhappy she is/was with the state of the relationship that she chooses D over the R/family.

Originally Posted By: crimson
W texted me a bit ago that he already fell asleep and must have been tired. *SIGH*, why does she send those messages?


Why do you think?


Anyhoo - thanks all, you have been a Godsend today.

Crimson
[/quote]
"Sure does suck. Know that she probably experiences the same if not stronger. Gives some perspective about how unhappy she is/was with the state of the relationship that she chooses D over the R/family."

Busto - I carry this ^^^^ around a lot. I brings me down to reflect on the fact that the pain of R is greater than the pain of missing our S. I know THAT pain and it is hard to picture much worse.

Crimson
Posted By: NLW Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/04/12 06:23 AM
Hey Crimson,

Just wanted to get in touch to remind you also that this process is not a linear one.

I think in my own case my expectation that things should get better, little by little, in some sort of incremental way is what brings me down so badly.

I've just had H on the phone telling me that he's not going to take part in our usual family traditions for Easter (egg hunt for the kids, hot X bun breakfast, and so on).

And then asking straight out if he could come over today or tomorrow to tell me how we're going to separate our finances. I thought he'd at least want to do some things with the kids for Easter - or recognise it as the big family holiday that we've always celebrated.

But no...

And the fact that we were out watching a kids' football match together yesterday as a family (and we all got on happily) carries no weight at all, it seems.

It's not baby steps forward along a path to R. It's an occasional inch forward followed by a giant mudslide backwards into the depths of despair.

BUT, as much as anything, this is because I expect there to be linear movement forward, and get devastated when it doesn't turn out that way.

We all refer to the emotional roller-coaster that we're on, but I think we don't often recollect what MWD said about the need for patience when we feel like we're back at square one some days.

She talks about a zig-zag pattern of progress as inevitable.

Hope it helps you at this point to keep this in mind.

Best,
NLW
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/04/12 12:07 PM
Bustorama said it so much better than I did, and I agree completely.

Quote:
Pulling back could say to her "so, as soon as I said divorce you took off - that just proves that you were just 'changing' to get me back".


This is the same fear you have carried around with you since day one. She's going to feel however, and you cannot control it. You do your best and then she has the freedom to think whatever she wants. That's just how people are.

You worked your tail off and she saw your changes...and yet, chose the D.....not b/c she didn't think your changes would not stick, and not b/c she didn't think the changes were for her.... but b/c she did not have romantic, sexual attraction for you!
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but she tried to tell you and you can't hear her.

Why can't you see that making your changes won't stick if you've done this to get her back. That's been your problem, you were always scared you could not convince her, your changes would last. But that's your thoughts....not hers.

Now listen...after the D, you will still feel like you can't do anything for fear of her not thinking you've become a better man! How long will you choose to live like that.....five, ten years, until she remarries? It will be an emotional prison for you.

You can't go on living like that, Crimson. Take back the control of your life and start living again. So far, you've given over the reigns of your life to your W. Take them back! You will have more self-respect, if you do.

Quote:
Would NOT asking her to breakfast with me and S or other things be "more of the same"? That's what I perceive "you won't want to work on the relationship" to mean. I guess what I am asking is could this backfire?


Then just ask her what she means. You are allowed to do that you know. It's much better than all the guessing games. Is she wanting a super-close coparenting R like you've given her the past few weeks? Ask her to be specific.

None of what's happened over the past few weeks have been wasted! I wouldn't use the word "backfire", but let's look at it from that POV.

Do you think the last few weeks backfired? If so, then do you really believe if you continued to use the same strategy (inviting her to be with you & S, engaging in long talks, etc.) that she'll suddenly have a change of heart? I don't, Crimson. Not after what she told you in the email. Your changes are good, and it bought you more time, and she sees your changes, and it tore her up.....but she didn't feel what she wanted to feel. So, you tell me.......do you want to continue the same strategy at this point?

Giving up is letting some other person or circumstance take control of your life. Giving up is not an option here. Taking back your life is an option and only you can make that choice. I still believe the day is coming that she will be able to have those feelings for you again....but you have to move forward and be happy without hanging on for dear life for that day to hurry up and get here!

(((hugs)))
Funny you should bring that up, NLW. I was thinking the same thing about progress in this space being non-linear. I know I read that here before, but it slipped my mind - probably good piece of wisdom for me to keep in mind.

Since I don't know any of you personally and you can't point and mock me, I am comfortable saying that I cried a lot last night. It had been building up and, frankly, felt good to get out. Very cathartic, but I prefer to do it when S is not around.

Sandi2 - you are as spot on as you were in the first reply to my post you ever made. Yep, she feels nothing for me romantically or sexually. Hurts the ego to say that out loud, but if you don't deal in truths you are just kidding yourself. Funny, because during this process she has said that I am nice-looking, etc. - but I have learned that for women there has to be a lot of something "extra" there for a relationship to be romantic/sexual. I am going to move forward, but home that time remains my ally.

I mentioned a guy at work that's probably in his 50's that knows my situation a few months back. He went through this, too - right around my age and he has been a real blessing to have quietly in my corner helping me through this. Don't think he DB'd but a LOT of what he is saying lines up exactly with the principles discussed here - he just learned them on his own. Found out that his w went through with the divorce, too. And he, like me, felt miserable. But he said that it took time for his wife to accept the new him and reaffirm their relationship. He frequently tells me that the divorce is just a point in time and a piece of paper that means nothing. If you know what you want, don't give up or be distracted by other women, etcetera. Talking to him helps keep my hope alive a bit.

W texted me this morning that S had a big bruise on the back of his leg. For a second I considered not replying, but since it was about S I did. Just asked if he complained about pain and said it might be from the playground (he get's pretty rowdy out there).

Getting back to your post Sandi, yeah - I think the last few weeks backfired in one respect so moving forward in that same direction would be a big mistake. I think it worked well in the sense that it gave her a chance to see some of the changes that I have made and perhaps gave her pause to see if they were "real". Clearly, she is still evaluating. To be honest I did too much too fast...but I wanted to make her feel good about herself (ergo the compliments and kind words) and let her know that I understood better what romance and affection meant to her (hence the flowers). Again, too much to soon. A classic LBS mistake that I thought I was avoiding. I should trust people here more.

Working on my GAL. Taking S to easter egg hunt this weekend and to the Musical Instrument Museum with a friend. It's a start.....

Crimson
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Giving up is not an option here. Taking back your life is an option and only you can make that choice. I still believe the day is coming that she will be able to have those feelings for you again....but you have to move forward and be happy without hanging on for dear life for that day to hurry up and get here!


So much agree with the above.

Crimson, remember back in the day, did you ever have someone romantically interested in you, but you weren't attracted to them? And they kept doing all sorts of things to "win" you over, hanging around you, hoping, striving. Didn't work out for them, did it? If anything, they come across as pathetic, desperate, icky, maybe even creepy.

That's how your W feels. Mine felt the same way.

The loss of attraction might be for a variety of reasons other than your physical appearance (you hurt her, you neglected her, she lost trust in you, you guys got into a rut of boredom, she lost respect for you), but the important thing FROM HER POV is she doesn't feel it for you. From her POV, it doesn't matter WHY she doesn't feel it for you, all she knows is she does not feel for you the way she wants to and hasn't for awhile.

I know you have been really focused on the fact that your W does not "feel it" for you -- wondering if, and how, those feelings might return. They can, but it's not via the doormat/kiss up/friend approach. My W even declared when moving out, "Once I have lost feelings for someone in the past, they have NEVER EVER come back. That has never happened for me, they are gone forever." Well, they came back.

And it's most likely to happen when you take control of your life, lead confidently and strongly in being the best Crimson you can doing your own thing. Her feelings of loss for you may remind her of things about you that attracted her to you, and she may start following/pursuing you as you distance. And if she doesn't, you don't want her to be as unhappy as she is with someone she doesn't feel it for, do you?

Open her cage, and you open your own.
i cried last night, too. you sound like a very kind and sensitive man and i think you can be proud of yourself.
Thanks, ScaredS - I always feel horrible that I do it - or that I even have to, but it does help get pain out somehow.

Busto -

I can't tell you how great of a post that was for me to read. As a man, I think we (well, at least "I") tend to subscribe to the false theory that if a woman finds us physically attractive that is 80% of the battle right there. Very, very untrue I am learning. I mean, I guess I have always kind of known that - I just seem to be witnessing it firsthand right now.

It's good to hear someone's story of feelings returning after they had gone. I often wonder if it is even possible in my situation. I agree that the doormat/friend/buddy approach probably won't get me there. Where I struggle is trying to find that right balance between friend and "distant" - you know? I guess I have this whole "out-of-sight-out-of-mind" fear with my W. I feel as though if I make myself scarce she will interpret that as me not being interested in R anymore. She already point blank said "I'm guessing after the divorce you won't want to work on the relationship anymore". How do I balance being there and not being there? Honestly, I really don't know a good way to do that and need help.

W texted me again this morning saying that S was in a really good mood this morning. Now knowing if I should say nothing or be polite I said "I'm sure that it's because he's with his mommy" - which I honestly DO believe. She said it was because he slept well and I joked and asked if she'd been slipping him some of her Lunesta. She sent back a chuckle. I figured I needed to pinch the convo off so I said "Have a good day, w". She responded "You, too. Keep your head up!". I didn't respond. Was THAT too much?

Gonna work on taking control of my life. Have to make sure my finances don't get screwed up. I do NOT want to lose my house. So I need to start there and build around that goal.

Thanks everyone -

Crimson
Crimson, I just posted some more journaling regarding my sitch that continued from where I left off posting on DB (so that it is more apparent what was going on from then up to the time that W and I began to reconcile).

You may find it helpful to you, since I know you read the first portions. Begins on p.6 of my second thread.
I think a huge part of not living is over analyzing every single interaction. I see it here a lot. People debate endless how to respond to a text or not respond or call or do whatever.

I submit the moment that you can truly free yourself from that is the moment you will be on the path you want.

But I think the biggest key in this is to trust yourself and your instincts. They will serve you well.

Not to quibble with gabby, but only on person's opinion really matters on if your text was pursuing and she's not on the boards.
So I have concluded that for the near-term I am going to exist the "do you want to do this with me" business with my W. Probably the best thing to do considering I uninentionally smothered her. Enter a strange wrinkle.....

There is an Easter Egg hunt at our church on Saturday (mentioned it a few posts ago) and I planned on taking S. Of course, W also attends church. She e-mailed me at work and asked if she could join me and S for the hunt. I didn't answer right away because I was away from my desk. She texted me the same question.

It was a hard decision to make, but I just said "sure, I would hate for you to miss it". Primarily because I know for a fact that she was expecting me to say "no" given the news from earlier this week and the fact that I got shut out last Friday from the whole train-park deal with her mom for my son's b-day.

I guess the "rightness" or "wrongness" of my decision could be debated forever - but I just went with my gut. I don't mind her being there, she wants to see the event, and I have no expectations at this point since I know D is coming. This is not going to save my marriage. I figure telling her to stay away would have done more harm than good in terms of us being friends.

Crimson

PS....Busto, I will check out the thread you referenced
Posted By: zig Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/04/12 09:30 PM
Originally Posted By: gabbysmom23
As wrong and as unfair as it was, I think I got angry at him! Why did he have to be so nice and sweet to me? It's making me feel like crap!!!!"


so gabby - not to intrude in this thread - but it intrigued me what you wrote.

i am being nice and sweet to h, no matter what - in a sort of casual, off-hand way and sometimes i notice him looking a bit pained. do you think i am actually prolonging this, because i am continually making him feel like crap?

it is a total 180 for me - i always got irritated and pissed off about things i thought he was doing wrong, and my 180 in my switch has been to show him that no matter how hard things are, i will not use anger or coldness or withdraw, but face it full on.

when i did withdraw earlier in the switch, it seemed that it pained him more obviously, but frankly now i'm just all out confused

would love to hear your take on it - do all of you remain friendly and nice with your WAS's
Posted By: NLW Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/04/12 11:26 PM
Hey Zig,

Not to hijack, but this is a real issue for me - and for Crimson, I'd imagine, too.

In the meantime, a bit of feedback to Crimson, FWIW from me, on responses to his W's emails:

"W texted me again this morning saying that S was in a really good mood this morning. Now knowing if I should say nothing or be polite I said "I'm sure that it's because he's with his mommy" - which I honestly DO believe. She said it was because he slept well and I joked and asked if she'd been slipping him some of her Lunesta. She sent back a chuckle. I figured I needed to pinch the convo off so I said "Have a good day, w". She responded "You, too. Keep your head up!". I didn't respond. Was THAT too much?"

My immediate reaction was to think that it was too much.

"Because he's with his mommy" sounds way too pursuing, to my mind.

Something like "Great" would have been better, I feel.

I'd have left out the joke about Lunesta, too.

I'd also not be initiating the "Have a good day" sign-offs.

Just a validating reply, "Great!" or "Great news!", when she offers that S has slept well, would have been better - in the sense that there's no possibility of her feeling it's smothering.

Even the response to her next email:

"sure, I would hate for you to miss it"

sounded too pursuing to me.

Something like
"You'd be most welcome"

sounds more like what one would say to a friend, and that's the level to pitch at IMO at this stage.

Just my 2c.
So here is where I find conflict in db'ing. In all of my responses and interactions I try to beat upbeat and positive. When I am in my best of moods I joke a lot - my w knows that. If I would have said something short and concise - it just doesn't feel like how I am when I am being happy - and I think it shows. I purposefully kept the convo short and "Have a good day" was my way of not lingering on like I would have naturally. I felt that "sure, I would hate for you to miss it" to me sounds like me being upbeat and positive. It seems like "act as if" might naturally conflict with pursuing - which I was not trying to do.

Historically in our marriage my wife has interpreted short responses from me (especially in text or email) as mean or angry. Guess I am trying to be careful with that.

I am NOT planning on initiating any texts, etc. - but I will try to stay upbeat and positive in responses but not too chatty.

Sorry if that came across defensive. Not my intent.

Crimson
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/05/12 12:21 AM
180s should be done as behavioural changes to what might be our negative behaviours... not to change our behaviours that we like about ourselves and are good...

Keep being upbeat... just back away from R talks or pushy / pursuing behaviours...

Say a funny joke, share a glass of wine, enjoy each other's company... just don't ask her to join you in bed, afterwards... wink

It is not just you, but generally speaking, short, abrupt language IS a sign of resistance and negativity...

take a step back for a moment... not too far back...

Ask yourself, what was it that gave your W a sense that you were pursuing her or smothering her... was it your chatty, up beat conversations... or was it your convos about R... sticking around after the lights were dimmed... staring into her baby blues...???

Stop doing what she appears to perceive as pursuing and smothering... but keep being you... and keep working on being better...
Crimson,

When you backed away, you got a little more from her.

You liked what you got, and naturally, you wanted more.

Upon you seeking more, she punched you in the gut.

Backing off got you more, seeking more got you less.

I just had this revalation myself.

You are tough. Give it a couple days. You WILL feel better. Maybe not 100%, but way better than yesterday.
Backing off got you more, seeking more got you less.

Valuable lesson there, pulpwood. Now I know....
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/05/12 01:08 AM
Which reminds me...

Watch out for the cheeseless tunnels... says MWD...
Odd, and I am really not reading a lot into this, but odd nonetheless. I set forth today with the goal of not really communicating with w at all. FOR SURE not initiating texts or calls and trying to keep my responses to texts simple and curt - but polite and friendly.

She texted the crap out of me - for her, anyway. Texted me that she was at the mall not far from my house, texted pictures of the baby and what he was doing, texted me thank S thanked God 3 or 4 times for Daddy in his prayer before bed. I didn't respond because I was having margaritas with a friend and left my phone in the car on purpose so I wouldn't be looking for her to reach out to me or to be tempted to reach out to her.

Meh, like I said - not gonna read a lot into it and I am not going to say it was the cause - but keeping quiet seemed to make her talk more. Either way, I am going to stick to my limited conversations and not initiate anything if it is not necessary.

Well, at least she doesn't detest me. That's a good starting point.

Crimson
Originally Posted By: NLW
Hey Zig,

Not to hijack, but this is a real issue for me - and for Crimson, I'd imagine, too.

In the meantime, a bit of feedback to Crimson, FWIW from me, on responses to his W's emails:

"W texted me again this morning saying that S was in a really good mood this morning. Now knowing if I should say nothing or be polite I said "I'm sure that it's because he's with his mommy" - which I honestly DO believe. She said it was because he slept well and I joked and asked if she'd been slipping him some of her Lunesta. She sent back a chuckle. I figured I needed to pinch the convo off so I said "Have a good day, w". She responded "You, too. Keep your head up!". I didn't respond. Was THAT too much?"

My immediate reaction was to think that it was too much.

"Because he's with his mommy" sounds way too pursuing, to my mind.

Something like "Great" would have been better, I feel.

I'd have left out the joke about Lunesta, too.

I'd also not be initiating the "Have a good day" sign-offs.

Just a validating reply, "Great!" or "Great news!", when she offers that S has slept well, would have been better - in the sense that there's no possibility of her feeling it's smothering.

Even the response to her next email:

"sure, I would hate for you to miss it"

sounded too pursuing to me.

Something like
"You'd be most welcome"

sounds more like what one would say to a friend, and that's the level to pitch at IMO at this stage.

Just my 2c.


OMG. I think this is exactly why Crimson micro analyzes every text, word action to his W. I think that is a huge problem with the boards here. Everyone wants to offer their own view (i.e. their own version of mind reading).

My advice would be to stop posting these interactions, and delete the text off your phone as soon as you send. that way, you don't have to go over and over and over it it. It's exhausting.
Posted By: labug Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/05/12 02:26 PM
It could be a new reality TV show: The Spin Doctors
Posted By: zig Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/05/12 02:26 PM
thanks gabby, you're right in the way you describe it - i've been doing it for awhile - and of course when i started - h asked me several times and i made the following very clear

i said i finally realized that if there was something bad in my life, i could still separate it from other things and that i didn't have to be consumed by it.

also, i told him clearly that for S10's sake, i would be cheerful and strong.

one thing i found out about his family is that no matter what is going on in their lives, they are consistently cheerful and you can never tell anything is wrong. once i understood that, i realized that i can be capable of that too - and learn to use appropriate moments to deal with our issues - not spread them out for all the world to see.

i think that for him it was a huge change to see me doing that - in the past i "ran away" every time i got upset, i went home, left the situation, disassociated - now no matter what bombs he drops, i stay right there and don't fall apart. and i have done that consistently from the moment this sitch began.

what's very strange for me is that i am NOT faking it - i am so happy at being woken up and for having the chance to be a better person, that the happy emotions are real!
That's probably a correct assessment, GM. She was probably just taking the temperature of the relationship to see how I was taking it.

GM, I would argue that the crux of all of this is the fact that my w thinks EVERYTHING I have done in terms of trying to change has been fake. I guess that's why I think consistency is important. Not only does it show sincerity in the fact that one is working to change, but it also forces you to think about your behaviors and reactions to things before you act or speak. That ALONE could have kept me out of this situation I think.

Like I noted before, upon receipt of the crappy news I got this week if I would have just dried up and gone back to being sad and sullen around my wife it would have been taken as "you were only working on changes to stave off divorce". Sure, I feel crummy right now - but I am going to continue to present confident, strong me as much as I can in every interaction. Believe it or not, for me that IS a 180 - it's not what I normally do when faced with heartbreak and I wasn't happy with the old behavior.

My W has asked multiple times why it took D for me to "wake up". And all I can ever tell her is that it took something this painful and disruptive to get my attention.

In other news, I am seconding guessing if it was the right thing to do telling w it was OK for her to come to the Easter egg hunt with me and s on Saturday. I wanted to use it as a chance to show that I was still intent on working on our relationship despite the pending D. But part of me thinks I should have said - no, we need to start living our lives as divorcees and not "play family". Guess I'll never know if I played that one right - but I can always ask her not to come. Though I know that would really hurt her feelings. Thoughts?

Funny - as I was typing this, w called to tell me that her baby sitter for S won't be available tomorrow due to an ill relative. Said that her principal has warned the staff not to take Friday off for the Easter holiday. Asked me if I could watch him tomorrow. This seems to happen a lot. It's not like missing work is GOOD for me. And I have thrown myself on that grenade for her a few times now.

Gotta say I hate this. This position just bites. Getting depressed. Financially, with the money I now have to give her each month and the daycare I am about to start operating in the red. Never done that before in my life - ever. Doesn't help that my transmission just crapped out to the tune of $3,000. The vast majority of my savings has been given to my lawyer AND hers and I have no safety net spare credit cards that I would prefer not to use. Just blowing off steam, I am sure all of you have been in similar spots before. Hard to keep a positive attitude with so much negative hitting you.

Crimson
Posted By: adinva Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/05/12 02:53 PM
Hang in there, Crimson. If you were only expected to keep a PMA when things were smooth, there wouldn't need to be a whole community of people to help cheer you on. Take care of yourself. Cut expenses where you can. Find the joy in things that are good, like some time with your son, and let that tide you over when the finances and D hit you. Take time to feel sadness and vent in a safe place.

You mentioned that somehow you thought we were telling you to act sad and depressed now - that's not the case. Detaching from her and giving her more space should not equal acting sad and depressed. If acting positive and strong is a 180 for you, keep doing it. Come up with a mantra to get you through when it's tough. 25yrsmlc had some that helped her.

Take care of you. Hang in there, you have a lot of supporters here.
Originally Posted By: gabbysmom23
Harrier, Crimson asked if it was too much. I answered. Simple.

I am the one pushing him not to overanalyze, so when there is a simple answer that jumps out which is what happens sometimes with a 3rd party, i say something and I back it up so it makes some sense.

You're right, maybe it's better not to post every text and ask for an analysis.

Crimson, yes, divorce seriously does suck. There is no fighting that either way.
I lost a lot too. I spent a lot of time dwelling on it too and feeling bad for myself. Now I just do the best I can. It took me ALOT of work to let go of the way my life "should" be financially and emotionally. You'll get there.


I didn't mean to single anyone out. But I do think that to an extent a lot of people are enabling the Neurosis regarding over thinking every single interaction.

I am fully aware that you have been telling him to tone down in thinking at lot. I think that is wise advice.

I just want to provide him with some actual concrete ideas on how to get away from that.
Well, I don't really post EVERY text and interaction here. Just ones that give me pause or otherwise confuse me. Mostly I just post for the sake of clarity and/or guidance. And, if I am being honest, to see if there is a seed of hope in anything my wife communicates with me.

Guess I'm just journaling here -

Today has been more difficult that I expected. The combination of fear, dread, sadness and worry are starting to create mental exhaustion. I DID meet up with a friend last night for dinner - that helped - I'm trying to focus on getting a life more.

I agreed to take S tomorrow since w has a sitter-crisis. I don't want him to be left in the lurch, and even though W COULD take the day off to deal - it is frowned upon by her employer. I don't want to leave her OR him high and dry. Yet at the same time I keep circling back to the whole "you need to get used to being divorced" argument. I never know if I am doing the right thing or not. At this point, though I figure what do I have to lose?

Crimson
You know...being divorced doesn't mean you stop doing these little favors for your spouse for your S - at least to me (I know a lot people will disagree.) It's not like she wants you to watch S so she can take the day off and get loaded or party.

I mean if you were already divorced would that change how you approach this situation. Would you tell her to eff off and take the day off?

Most studies on this say the same thing. The ex-S don't have to like each other, but as long as they are friendly, and on the same page with respect to the kids, that gives the kids the best chance for success from a divorced household. And in the end, it should be one of the main goals. Doing petty things doesn't seem to foster that.

i believe 25 said it best. It's not your job to teach them, life will do that for them. I live by that rule every day.
I guess it all boils down to comfort, GM, you're right. Comfort and expectations. I don't mind helping out at all. Sometimes my vindictive side wants to just say "no". But I am trying to be reasonable and not start an argument where there doesn't need to be one. Or, as 25yearsmlc has said - "keep the road home smooth and paved".

Interestingly enough, she sent me an e-mail at work today inviting me and S to Easter brunch. My more cynical side wants to say that she just wants to see S, but I will probably accept. NO expectations and it's just another opportunity for a good interaction.

Which leads me to my next point. All of our interactions since I wrote that letter (seems like a million years ago)have been so positive. We laugh, share stories of where are lives are, enjoy meals together, enjoy playing with the baby - the list goes on. I guess what I am saying is so much progress has been made - and we get along. Guess that makes it harder to understand. I'll just take it as it comes. She said she is literally living all of this one day at a time - I guess I should do the same.

Crimson
C, I hate to bring up a tough subject, but where does the IVF/embryo sitch stand? Has it been discussed further?
It hasn't come up since the doctor visit. I think it is fairly safe to assume that she won't being starting a cycle this month, though.

I know that NEITHER of us wants to discard the embryo and BOTH of us still want another child. Just makes the whole situation more confusing/frustrating.

Crimson
So I have been settling into the new wrinkle in my sitch - that being that my w is pretty sure she is moving forward with D because her heart is still "closed off" to me.

I started thinking about something that 25yearsmlc said once. Only when she fully accepted the fact that her marriage was over did she move on and start living. I am not there yet, but I am working on it. The good thing is, I can see how that freedom works from a distance and hope to arrive there.

Met w this morning at a coffee shop to pick up son (babysitter had a death in the family so I am "on call"). As per norm, we had a nice chat about life and things. It's sad because we both know and understand one another so well - the intricacies of our respective families, our fears.....hard to let that go in a person. Regardless, it was a nice visit and I presented happy and content. We had a nice little three way hug with the baby when we left.

Hope all is well with everyone.

Crimson
So as the fates would have it, w is coming to the house topic me and s up so we can go get my car from the mechanic. Then the three of us are headed over to the easter egg hunt with s. It's my weekend, but she asked me if I could go (as previously noted). I said yes - because I know she wants to see it and get pictures. But from an "us" standpoint I am still going back and forth. I figure it can't hurt things - and I know I will be in a good mood for it. Still I wonder if this is cake eating? Ya' know?

I feel pretty confident that she is still slightly confused and thats a good thing. So maybe every positive interaction that we can have is a good this. I won't ask her to do anything afterwards - just gonna go home.

Hope all is well with you guys.

Crimson
Originally Posted By: Crimson
She said she is literally living all of this one day at a time - I guess I should do the same.

Crimson


Very wise of her and yes, do the same. You also said that since the letter, things between you two have been more positive. That's a good thing. You should be proud of yourself. Your interactions with her are better because of something you did -writing her a letter.

Take care of Crimson!
So here's a fun little wrinkle - I'll tell you, this DB stuff is a strange, strange ride.

So w picks me and s up to take us to the mechanic to get my 4Runner. On the way there I asked if she wouldn't mind stopping at Starbucks to get some coffee. She kindly did. As we were pulling into the parking lot she says in a somewhat contrite voice "I kind of regret saying I didn't want to go to the comedy show tonight - I just didn't want there to be pressure like it was a date". So now she wants to go - fortunately, I still have access to the tickets and a babysitter available.

So weird. I think as others have pointed out she is a little confused and still "day by day", which is fine. I'll still take her - but it isn't a "date". I am OK with that. Furthermore, I will have no expectations spare having a good time. We both love this comic so it should be good. And, oddly enough, the two of us have been getting along fine. I will never understand this, but maybe there is merit to just taking this day by day.

Crimson
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/07/12 08:20 PM
Quote:
I just didn't want there to be pressure like it was a date".


Tried to tell ya.
Yep, Sandi. And somehow I thought I was listening. Live and learn.
Well, if one day ever contained more mixed signals I don't know if I remember it. I'll just recap and any insight would be greatly appreciated as I am kind of confused and, well - to be honest, I don't know how to feel about myself.

So I picked her up for the show at 5:30 at her condo. She looked great as always. We had a nice pleasant chat on the way downtown. Got to the comedy club early and had a drink and a decent little bite to eat.

We laughed our a$$es off during the show...even the opener was hysterical the main act (Cedric The Entertainer) killed - it was great. They made a few relationship jokes and we just kind of looked at each other and laughed. He even made a joke about how when men wear hats to look younger (i.e. not bald or grey). I looked at her and frowned jokingly and she just smiled and rubbed my head.

When the show was over we walk out together and for the first time in forever she held my arm. I didn't ask for it, push for it....nothing. All the way back to the car she held on to my arm and we laughed about the show.

So as we are leaving the parking garage, we started talking about our son - lovingly. How great he is, and so on. Then she starts talking about a second one. And I said before I die he will have a sibling. And THAT was a turning point that I did not see coming. She said "that isn't very encouraging" or something like that. Basically saying that I always talk that I am going to be a father again, a better husband, this and that.....and I never mention HER as being part of it. Soooo odd to me. So I told her that I don't talk about her in that regard because I know where we are right now and I don't want to freak her about talking about a future she might not be thinking of. WHY IN THE WORLD would she want me to talk about her in those kinds of plans?! She just said she is going through with D last week!

She launched into how hurt she felt when I was not willing to work on baby #2 - saying I just said "nope". How that was such a deal breaker for her in our marriage. She went on to talk about all of these things that I said in arguments - some that I remember, some that I did not. I did my DB best and said I don't remember saying some of those things but I am not saying that it did NOT happen. I said that I apologize if it was hurtful. She would not really let it go....wanting me to say that I REMEMBER saying things and that I agree that she should have been angry....agree that it was reason enough to leave the marriage. I did my best 25yearsmlc and said that there is nothing I can do about the past but regret my actions and learn from them. I told her that two people that love each other will not always agree about what happened in the past. The best that I could do was try to hang on the the loving memories of the past and take away the life lessons that it brought.

She was stunned that I didn't remember saying things. She asked why is it that I didn't. I didn't have answers....I told her that I was not saying that these things didn't happen....I just didn't remember them. I told her that I believe her when she says she remembers that she did.

Then she went into all of these things she said I said when she said that she wanted a D. She said I said that I wasn't going to give her a dime, that I was dropping her off of my insurance the next day. I remember variations of some of those things....but I do NOT remember them the way that she does. Again, she asked me why. I said at that moment we were BOTH hurt and deeply sad - I was probably lashing out and trying to defend myself somehow. She said "so you see why I got a lawyer based on the things you said?! Wouldn't you do the same?!".

It went on like that for awhile. I never yelled, I never raised my voice, I never pointed fingers, I never lost my cool. I listened, I responded, I tried to validate. She did not seem to believe much of anything I said.

When we got to her condo, she said "happy people attract happy people - and you were miserable in out marriage!". I told her that I never felt miserable, that I enjoyed coming home to her and s every day. She said "yeah, and then you would never talk to us.....you would disconnect......you would pick up the house". I told her that one of the things that I learned was that men feel connected to their families just BEING in the house, and women need engagement, interaction (from How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It). She just shook her head.

Again, I never lost my cool. I just calmly said that the irony now is that NOW is when I feel miserable....with her being gone....with my son being gone. That I wasn't miserable when she thought I was.

She just seemed so angry and so determined to get me to believe I was miserable, that I did and said all of these terrible things relating to have a second baby that drove her to leave. That I made it so she couldn't be herself, that my FAMILY made it so she couldn't be herself. She got out of the car and walked to her condo.

I left feeling that all I wanted to do was show her a nice evening. And I DID that until we left the show and drove home. I left feeling like a terrible husband and father.

As it relates to me being miserable in our marriage, she recalled all of the times that I said I was happy....and I was. Then she said "YOU are the one that told me that when words and actions don't match then there is something wrong - and your words didn't match your actions!". I told her I thought they did....that I did feel happy and thought I didn't present miserable. She just doesn't see it that way.

SOOOO confused guys - how did a great night take such a negative turn at the end? Did she have fun with me and then realize "hey....I'm mad at you!!!". Was it the Ketel One and tonics?? She wasn't wasted. Why did all of this anger come out?? Everything was going so nicely during the evening.

Seems like she is not willing to believe anything I say about the past and that she is not ready to not be angry at me. BUT - she get's offend when I talked about being a better dad...a better husband....and I don't say "to her" when I mention it in.

Confused....feeling crappy about myself.....and feeling rather beat up. Anyone have any thoughts? I am wide open.....

Crimson
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/08/12 06:58 AM
Based on the way you relate your experience of the evening, it does sound like your W was trying to blame you and sounded like she was trying to get you to admit you drove her away and that she had just cause to want and continue to want a D.

And I suspect that your W would relate HER experience of the evening in a different way.

My recommendation? Let it go. Let everything you believe she said, go...

Stop trying to remember the fine details... how you could have or should have responded to how you felt attacked by her...

Based on your post, you did well in responding. And, you had an enjoyable evening at the comedy show.

Perhaps... that will be all that she remembers of the evening...

Until and unless she chooses to have another conversation with you, like that one... in which she will remember what you said in a different way than YOU remember it...

Today is another day to keep doing the good work...
Crimson,

The good news is that she felt connected enough with you and safe enough with you to unload her hurt on you.

The bad news is you need to do a better job of validating her feelings -- stop defending yourself the way you are or being defensive about it or justifying or explaining.

Here's what I mean (look where I bold):

Originally Posted By: Crimson
Then she starts talking about a second one. And I said before I die he will have a sibling. And THAT was a turning point that I did not see coming. She said "that isn't very encouraging" or something like that. Basically saying that I always talk that I am going to be a father again, a better husband, this and that.....and I never mention HER as being part of it. Soooo odd to me. So I told her that I don't talk about her in that regard because I know where we are right now and I don't want to freak her about talking about a future she might not be thinking of.


You are defending/explaining yourself. We (men) do this all the time. It seems logical. Stop doing that. The real issue is how your W feels at that moment (not whether what you did or said makes sense). A better response would be something like, "It bothers you when I talk and it sounds like I don't see you as part of my future? Tell me about that hon? How does it make you feel?"

Originally Posted By: Crimson
She launched into how hurt she felt when I was not willing to work on baby #2 - saying I just said "nope". How that was such a deal breaker for her in our marriage. She went on to talk about all of these things that I said in arguments - some that I remember, some that I did not. I did my DB best and said I don't remember saying some of those things but I am not saying that it did NOT happen.


You might as well shoot yourself in the foot, Crimson! She tells you a list of things that really hurt her. That were DEAL BREAKERS her for her (and that still hurt her when she thinks about them). And you tell her you don't even remember it? (and she hears it was that insignificant to you to hurt her like that that you don't remember).

Again, focus on her feelings and don't try to explain or justify yourself or even determine if her feelings have what you would recollect as a reasonable basis. They are how she feels right now and therefore her pressing reality. A better answer would have been, "I see now how hurt you were and still are by it. That not working on a 2nd baby was a deal breaker for you then. I am sorry I hurt you by not seeing it then when I had the chance.

Originally Posted By: Crimson
I said that I apologize if it was hurtful.


Don't say "if it was" hurtful. She told you it was hurtful (and still hurts her). You qualifying your apology with "if it was hurtful" essentially invalidates her feelings again because she just told you it was hurtful. You might get a book called The Five Love Languages of Apology (or something like that) to help you not self-sabotage your apologies.

Originally Posted By: Crimson
She would not really let it go....wanting me to say that I REMEMBER saying things and that I agree that she should have been angry....agree that it was reason enough to leave the marriage. I did my best 25yearsmlc and said that there is nothing I can do about the past but regret my actions and learn from them. I told her that two people that love each other will not always agree about what happened in the past. The best that I could do was try to hang on the the loving memories of the past and take away the life lessons that it brought.


What she is really after emotionally is not for you to remember HOW you hurt her, but for you to acknowledge that she was hurt (and is still hurting) and that you were the one who hurt her. You may not have intended to do so, but she experienced you as hurting her. Therefore, in her reality (which is what matters), you hurt her. When you don't validate her hurt without qualification (she is telling you she you hurt her, why deny that she is hurt? do you know her feelings better than she does?). It doesn't MATTER whether you recollect that you hurt her that way or whether she may have misinterpreted things you did or said. What MATTERS is that she felt hurt by you, that her hurt was never validated (and is still not being validated). That you didn't figuratively hold her tight then or now and amend for hurting her.

How can she trust you not to hurt her again when you deny her feelings and say you remember things differently or (worse?) don't remember the multitude of ways you hurt her? Accept what she says at face value that she was (and is) hurt and act accordingly, without explanation, justification or defensiveness.

Quote:
Then she went into all of these things she said I said when she said that she wanted a D. She said I said that I wasn't going to give her a dime, that I was dropping her off of my insurance the next day. I remember variations of some of those things....but I do NOT remember them the way that she does. Again, she asked me why. I said at that moment we were BOTH hurt and deeply sad - I was probably lashing out and trying to defend myself somehow. She said "so you see why I got a lawyer based on the things you said?! Wouldn't you do the same?!".


LEAD with validating her, not defending yourself, seeing if you can connect. "Yes, W, I can totally see how you would have felt very unsafe and that you wanted to defend yourself. To tell you the truth, that's probably what was driving my behavior at the time, fear and hurt. Is that how you felt too?"

Originally Posted By: Crimson
It went on like that for awhile. I never yelled, I never raised my voice, I never pointed fingers, I never lost my cool. I listened, I responded, I tried to validate. She did not seem to believe much of anything I said.


Less responding (defending/justifying/explaining), MUCH more validating.

Quote:
When we got to her condo, she said "happy people attract happy people - and you were miserable in out marriage!". I told her that I never felt miserable, that I enjoyed coming home to her and s every day.


Stop invalidating her. Better response, Did you feel that I was miserable in our marriage, W? That must have been so hard for you to believe that all those years. What things made you feel that way?

Because if a partner thinks their partner is unhappy in the marriage, it is one of the hardest things on that partner -- my W told me the exact same thing and it ate her inside for years.

Originally Posted By: Crimson
She said "yeah, and then you would never talk to us.....you would disconnect......you would pick up the house". I told her that one of the things that I learned was that men feel connected to their families just BEING in the house, and women need engagement, interaction (from How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It). She just shook her head.


STOP INVALIDATING HER and telling her why her view is wrong. Better answer, W, you felt like I shut you out and disconnected from you?? I can see how that would have been terrible for you, feeling alone and that I did not want to connect with you guys. Is that how you felt, hon? I can totally see why you would want to leave the M if that is how you felt.

Crimson, the connection she misses and wants from you is from being heard and understood. Not from you producing the right explanation of why you acted a certain way.
Bustorama, you hit the nail on the head! My H and I would get into these types of arguments, and it would just infuriate me further when he just wasn't big enough to validate what I was feeling, or my perspective. In fact, the first time (and only time) I separated from him was for this very reason. I was sick to death of him NOT standing up for the relationship and seeing any other perspective but his own. These types of arguments would therefore last forever and ever, and it all built up to a point that I left. He still doesn't get it to this day frown
Busto -

I will absolutely defer to your knowledge in this - you've actually been able to do what I have not. The things is, I was TRYING not to be defensive - probably just not hard enough. She would ask me questions about things that happened, and I tried to explain to her where my head was at that time. I DID stress that I was wrong about a lot of things that I believed or thought at the time and that I was regretful that my actions and/or words hurt her. It didn't feel as if I was invalidating, but to read your synopsis I guess I was. I feel like I dug myself even deeper into the hole last night.

She texted me this AM and said:

"Thank you for the show. I'm sorry I ended last night so poorly. That's why I try to avoid these situations. Raw emotions still come out."

I tried to validate and simply said "you are justified in feeling the way that you do - getting things out is part of the healing process, I'm glad you expressed your feelings last night".

All in all, I am glad we had last night - the show was great and....she held my arm. For a guy that used to not do PDA well, that made my night. Hopefully I didn't do too much damage during out conversation on the way home. Hopefully, on some level it was constructive more than destructive - I honestly don't know.

Next time I will try to be more validating.


Crimson
Posted By: labug Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/08/12 02:58 PM
I agree^^^. H and I also had many of these which lead to anger and resentment on my part and more shutting down on his part.

She's not trying to put blame on you, she's trying to get you to see her as person with feelings, someone who was hurt and is still hurting.

She wants what we all want,both men and women, to be understood.
Yes, her emotions are extremely raw. Pure, unqualified validation from you is what will help her heal. I know sometimes it sounds like she is asking for the reasons, "why" but the why she asking isn't really why did you do this/what were you thinking?

It's why did you, the person I most trusted, hurt me? how could you hurt me like this?

And the best answer is simply, I'm sorry I hurt you like that, W. You did not deserve that. I can now see how hurt you were and still are by it.

If you "stand still" and let her work through your emotions at her pace, simply acknowledging that you get them and how hurt she was and is, you may find that she gradually works through them. You don't need to defend or justify yourself from them. Let her anger and sadness and raw emotions wash over you. Be strong enough to take them and accept them with the I'm sorry and perhaps an added, Is there anything you want me to do now to help you heal?

She needs to trust that you are sorry and won't hurt her again.
Posted By: labug Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/08/12 02:59 PM
I was agreeing with YC and busto.
Thanks, Busto. I did my best to try to convey that to her last night but I just did a poor job.

"I'm sorry I hurt you like that, W. You did not deserve that. I can now see how hurt you were and still are by it. Is there anything you want me to do now to help you heal?"

I sincerely wish I would have said that last night. I am glad you all explained what she was trying to accomplish. I understand better now. I am still rather error-prone in this process. I just hope I didn't blow it even further.

Oddly enough - I am sure I will see her at church in an hour. *SIGH* Let the healing begin.

Crimson
What a weird weekend. Just so many "things" on so many levels over the last 48 hours.

So myself, w and SIL all planned on being at church today for Easter service. Strangely enough, w texts and asks if she can come to the house because the place that we were going to for brunch afterwards was kind of close by me. I said sure. She dropped in and we shared the ride to church. When she got in the house she said "I'm sorry about last night - I reamed you the whole way home. My emotions are still raw". I told her she had nothing to apologize for and that it is best that she gets those things out - that it is part of the healing process. Through the course of the morning/afternoon she probably apologized 1-2 more times.

The drive to church together was nice, as was the service. We went to a really nice place for brunch (compliments of her mother) and really enjoyed our time. We drove back to the house together and she went upstairs to put our S down for his nap. I could hear her reading to him from downstairs.

She came back down and said that sometimes it;s just hard for her to be in the house, and I could see her eyes welling up. She gave me a hug and thanked me "for all of the fun this weekend". I walked her to her car and told her I had a nice time and the she looked great last night and today. Nothing too "pursuey". I saw the tears start and she drove off.

Odd weekend. But it seemed...well....necessary. Necessary and overall positive. When I told her not to apologize for last night (after the 3rd time) she said "I feel horrible....who wants to be talked to like that?".

Oh well.....happy Easter, folks.

Crimson
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: Never thought I'd be here.........part 13 - 04/09/12 03:40 AM
Just a nit pick Crimson...

She apologized...

You said she had nothing to apologize for...

I get your intentions were good...

but then she apologized a couple more times...

Why?

Because maybe... she didn't feel that you accepted her apology...

Rather than saying, thank you for apologizing... you said she didn't have to, even though you followed it by saying that it was good for her to get it out...

Validate... you don't have to agree... just validate...
Crimson,

Just saw this now. And I don't have time to read the rest of this thread and there re several pages. In fact you probably started a new one.

In case you have not, let me say ONE thing.

SO WHAT?

She out and out told you that she's not ready to UN-do the proceedings BUT IF YOU ARE SINCERE ABOUT THE CHANGES AND IMPROVEMENTS


SHE'D BE OPEN...well, are you? Was this all to get her back

or to get YOU back?

Why not continue on as if things are fine, with or without a divorce paper

BUT ALSO add some mystery. You are entitled to "date" or at least let her wonder if

WHILE ALSO being the great man you were meant to be.

I'm wondering why it's all or nothing with you.

If she won't guarantee piecing, you won't keep working on the R with the mother of your child?

Don't get me wrong buddy. I KNOW this hurts and I feel for you. I DO...

I'm just wondering if there isn't something more in you that you didn't know you have.

I think there is.

((((( )))))
Originally Posted By: Crimson
E-Mail from wife today

"As Much as I have loved all the compliments, flowers, kind words, and hearing about your transformation, my heart still is closed off. I wish I could force it open to you, but I am not able to. I am proceeding forward [b]but I always stay open that if feelings could come back or maybe someday we could be on the same page. I'm guessing once divorced, you will not want to work on relationship anymore, and I understand that too."[/b]

THIS^^^^IS A TEST...it's up to you if you want to meet it but otherwise, imo, she's saying she won't feel safe or secure enough to let herself go with you.


Well, I guess I don't have to keep speculating anymore, huh? We have a hearing on 5/3 and it's a wrap 5/8. My heart it broken, but I am still not ready to give up. I just don't know what to do right now. She seems to want me to keep working on R still - and I will, just will be hard.

Hard, but not impossible. Hate repeating myself here but remember I do have 2 family members who divorced, only to remarry years later. At least you'd have a headstart.


It felt like we were making good progress.
Just don't know where to go from here. I am not wailing out loud at all, but I can't stop the tears from falling right now.

Crimson


I'm sad for you...I really am. You have done so much work. I wish I knew how many "laps" were left on this run but I can't tell you that.

BUT FOR SURE

You WERE making progress. She didn't want to be around you or let you get her anything

now she's inviting you to things, and her mom hugs you. Um, that IS progress.

You know what you can do to maybe make this work but no, there are no guarantees.

But Crimson, there never were any. At least now your eyes are wide open.

Hope this makes sense.
Happy Easter to you too Crimson...


I'm assuming you are Christians b/c of the celebratory nature of your activities this weekend.

Remember what this holiday/ Holy Day/Sunday is all about in our faith?


Not just the suffering of the crucifixion but (for me anyhow), the main point was the

Resurrection.


Anything grab you about that?
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Happy Easter to you too Crimson...


I'm assuming you are Christians b/c of the celebratory nature of your activities this weekend.

Remember what this holiday/ Holy Day/Sunday is all about in our faith?


Not just the suffering of the crucifixion but (for me anyhow), the main point was the

Resurrection.


Anything grab you about that?


Without crucifiction there is no resurrection.

Likewise, sometimes you have to go through seperation and/or divorce to resurrect the relationship. Let the old one die and begin anew.

To correlate DB principles, if someting's not working let it go - that could end up being the whole old marriage.

But only God knows.
Play the hand you're dealt.

I've been through what you're going through Crimson.
Praying for ya.
Pic
Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
Just a nit pick Crimson...

She apologized...

You said she had nothing to apologize for...

I get your intentions were good...

but then she apologized a couple more times...

Why?

Because maybe... she didn't feel that you accepted her apology...

Rather than saying, thank you for apologizing... you said she didn't have to, even though you followed it by saying that it was good for her to get it out...

Validate... you don't have to agree... just validate...


I had this same thought. I can't remember if it was someone here or my W who said that when someone apologizes and you say, "No need to apologize", it kinda minimize their way of thinking .

But at least KD didn't give the "I told you so" like someone.
Quote:
You might as well shoot yourself in the foot, Crimson! She tells you a list of things that really hurt her. That were DEAL BREAKERS her for her (and that still hurt her when she thinks about them). And you tell her you don't even remember it? (and she hears it was that insignificant to you to hurt her like that that you don't remember).

This? /\ /\

VERY well said!

I have this with my H all the time. And he is always defensive. It will be a deal-breaker for us, too. If someone defends their actions, there is no reason to believe they will change their actions in the future. Not even being able to remember them is just icing on the cake. Part of it is heart, the other part is mouth. The mouth can be trained.

Sorry, C, for a few bad moments this weekend. Otherwise I think it was good. I still see so many open doors. I may have been wrong on the D not going through, but I still have little doubt to the R of the M. Those negative signs just aren't there.
Ditto Crazyville.

I too did not recognize that my XW had some real greviences, which were (obviously) significant to her. By the time she was done it was too late.

When your WAS reaches a point where they've had enough, you have to understand, it's going to be a long road back.

She could forgive hurt and pain when she feels free of pressure and you can make it easy for her, by your attitude and changes. Forgiving is not as hard for the liberated.

The hard part is the forgetting. It takes a lot more time and patience and work to allow someone the growth to actually let go of the past. I too have greviences. Forgetting is hard for both partys; be prepared.

Understand then, that one spouse's choices may not make any sense to the other, but it makes perfectly good sense to them. Accept that and go forward from there.

Pic.
Originally Posted By: InAPickle
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Happy Easter to you too Crimson...


I'm assuming you are Christians b/c of the celebratory nature of your activities this weekend.

Remember what this holiday/ Holy Day/Sunday is all about in our faith?


Not just the suffering of the crucifixion but (for me anyhow), the main point was the

Resurrection.


Anything grab you about that?


Without crucifiction there is no resurrection.

Likewise, sometimes you have to go through seperation and/or divorce to resurrect the relationship. Let the old one die and begin anew.

To correlate DB principles, if someting's not working let it go - that could end up being the whole old marriage.

But only God knows.
Play the hand you're dealt.

I've been through what you're going through Crimson.
Praying for ya.
Pic


I was not really interested in a theological discussion. I just wanted Crimson to see the HOPE in his situation. I think he gets the pain part already.

Crimson---when she apologizes for reaming you (as opposed to some mutual "fray" for which you both would apologize for hurtful things said) then accept the apology.

At best her timing of the reaming sukked. You took her out, you both laughed a lot and she held your arm and then gets in the car to ream you out?

At worst, she HAD to blow the evening b/c God forbid she acts happy around you when she MUST be miserable and prove that you are too.

That was just lousy of HER...let her apologize.

In the future If she wants to express regrets or anger, pick a normal appropriate time. Even if she is "right" to feel however she feels, you think a birthday party is a good time to bring it up? How about Christmas Eve? See my point?

As for the validating and not recalling--as you may recall, my h does NOT remember saying that he was "willing to take that chance" when I asked him if he knew he was risking losing our marriage and family.

He says he'd "never say something like that, ever."....I can tell you where I was (guest bathroom) and what I was doing--not gross--I was spackling the wall.

So yes, I am positive he said it.

But to him that would be SO hurtful and stupid to say, he just cannot believe it. I think at some level he does not want to.

Unlike your w, I don't HAVE to have him recall it, but then again, it wasn't about having another child. If she does not think you know HOW you hurt her then she'll not feel safe about it not happening again. That is the difference.

If you don't recall something at all, MAYBE you can say "I can't believe I'd be that insensitive or stupid or---, b/c I DO WANT another child..."

and wasn't it possible you were worried about money or time? I thought at the start of this, in your posts, you did recall saying some wacky things you regretted -- but you defended in your posts...maybe those are what she's discussing?

She may win for sending the most mixed signals in the world...but it's better than the option of sending clarity with a good bye.

Do you ever talk about how YOU FEEL, NOW? Ever share that? It's a form of intimacy and disclosure builds intimacy.

Too many men "interview" women to see how the women feel, which is great---but if they never open up themselves, it's a bit unfair. The woman makes herself vulnerable, or naked, and the guy just takes it in, like he's gathering intel,

It's often well intended so I don't mean to bash guys here. The man doesn't want to appear self centered and I get that.

He wants his wife to feel heard and understood. But in your w's case, she needs to know how you feel.

so maybe, no more remarks about being a better dad..."with someone, someday" b/c they sound vaguely threatening like you'd "show her"....

If she brings up another child as a topic,

can you own the fact that YOU FEEL CONFUSED NOT about wanting another child but about including her in it, b/c she is confused about whether she wants to be with you AND


yes, you DO want to be a father again. You would prefer it be with her BUT you also know that whenever you speak of future plans, she backs down and gets distant.

So you are sort of damed if you do, and damned if you don't.

If that's how you feel, would it be so weird to tell her that?


She needs some accountability for what she expresses too.

Yes -I know Crimson, I know you have said you were a jerk in the marriage (per YOU, not me)and a lot of what you describe was very selfish, and I know that she was hurt often, and deeply.

I get it. You get it. We get it. Sooooo

What is it that she wants from you, NOW?



I'm thinking she wants you to keep courting her without paying attention to divorce papers, no matter what they say or what gets filed, etc. She wants to know if those changes of yours, were tactics for stalling/stopping a divorce

(b/c the timing of your letter the night before a hearing - sukked too, but yes, better late than never) OR

if they're real. How best can she test that, but by following through?

I know it's dramatic and painful - but in a weird way I can see why.

Just my opinion. I'd love to hear other's.

Sorry for the confusion Crimson but hey, there is still a whole lot of hope.

Her apology was spot on. And it's an improvement. It means she knows you have changed for the better and perhaps she wants to live UP to that in herself too. Hence HER doing the apologizing. You were not flawless in the discussion but you were pretty damn good.

The statement "I don't recall that but I'm sorry IF I hurt you" is only for batchit crazy things they accuse you of.

In your case, You know you DID hurt her - so just stick to saying sorry for THAT. And then make the point of how it'd be different in the future so she can envision it.

Even if she misheard something, it DID hurt her. Make sense?

((( )))
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