Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: ouroboros Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/21/12 03:50 AM
Hi everyone, very new to this forum and recently just started looking for help online. I don't know what to do. I guess I'll just tell you the story and plead for any advice.

Two days before our 14th anniversary at the end of February, my wife told me she saw a lawyer and wants an amicable divorce. We have 2 kids, daughter 7 and son 4. No physical abuse ever, no affairs on my part, none admitted by her.

Unlike her, she was emotionless the entire time and matter of fact. I was a complete emotional wreck, bawling and trying to understand what was happening. I still am. Although the last time we saw a therapist together was 2.5 years ago, and 10 yrs previous to that, she told me that we've done all we can.

She talks about having a 'moment of clarity' back in mid-December when our son was having a difficult week in pre-school. One of the teachers asked my wife if anything is going on at home since the boy didn't seem himself this week. She says it hit her at that point that we should divorce, although she failed to tell me any of this until the bomb in late Feb.

For over two months before the bomb, she says she looked for 'indications', that it was very hard for her to fake through my birthday and valentines day, and didn't want to repeat that with our anniversary. I'm so confused by this--no discussion about us, no demands make things different, not a discussion about divorce, just an appt with the lawyer and the bomb (no papers yet).

For my part in it, (and after reading some of the information here about MLCs), I have had a wildly challenging past 4 years. In 2008, I unexpectedly lost my dad, my sister sued me over our dad's estate, I lost my job, and lost our cat. In 2009, I was very dissatisfied with my new job and was considering a career change. We talked for months and in detailed ways about how/when/if I should enroll in a 1 year culinary program and build a small restaurant. We talked about how we would work together, how hard it would be, but how we'd manage it. So I left my job, started working part-time at another job, and was accepted to the school. A week before I started, she told me she didn't want to be a stay at home mom anymore, how she loathes cooking, and wanted to apply to a 1yr teaching program. I expressed my serious concern--stress of both being in school at the same time, childcare and transport, riding our finances slim, and having opposing schedules. I wasn't sure we could handle it, but supported her if that was what she had to do.

In hindsight, that's when I started becoming very depressed, feeling abandoned my her, with brief moments of passion pursing my new career.

So, skip ahead a year to 2011. After a difficult year, which was stressful to our relationship, we're both graduated. I'm working 60hrs/wk at a restaurant, she's subbing and looking for a full-time gig. She's unhappy with a perceived imbalance in the housework, and I'm still up-down depressed. She feels abandoned in our marriage, as do I. We talk to each other about it, but rarely, walking on eggshells, have listless sex every other month, arguing, but trying. Two of her friends keep whispering in her ear that they know for a fact I'm having an affair (not true). More stress. She feels concerned about her weight, starts taking doctor prescribed phentermine (even though she's in recovery) along with her antidepressant she's been on for years. I get a chance to own the restaurant at which I'm working, but it doesn't pan out. Deeper depression for me. Our dear dog dies.

Then, mid-year on a rare day that we're both off, she absolutely shocks me and initiates sex--for the first time in 10 years. Couple of weeks later, she tells me she's pregnant.

We discuss options--although having another baby would be awesome, the reality is that there are severe medical complications with her having another pregnancy. We mutually decide for her to have an abortion. There are two visits involved. She insists the first visit has no gravity for her--show up, take two pills, and leave. She tells me it's stupid for me to take off work. I acquiesce, call her repeatedly to check up. The next visit, I arrange to get off work and get told by her how the first appt was the important one, that I missed that one, screaming at me insisting that I don't come. I'm floored. My depression seriously deepens.

The new owner of the restaurant is absolutely awful. I quit in September. I start looking for another job, and places to buy. After running the restaurant numbers again and again, I can't make them work--unless it's a family run restaurant. My depression takes me by the neck, throttling me. I start drinking way too much, which although certainly not helping anyone, doesn't have any visible negative consequences. I was feeling completely crippled, even having irrational fleeting thoughts of suicide. I tell this to my wife, asking for her help. She tells me, yes, I do need help and does nothing. Deeper.

Then December, her 'moment of clarity', months of her looking for 'indications' while at the same time spurning me for any support, a hug, a kiss hello. Not even a handshake.

Then the bomb at the end of February. I'm crushed, but from god knows where I find the energy to stop drinking, to meet 1-1 with a marriage counselor, get on antidepressants, get help.

I asked her to go out for a dinner, which was civil and polite. After pointing out to her she has made a unilateral decision, and without actually talking to anyone--all this was on her own save the lawyer--she acquieses to seeing a couples counselor, but to help me feel better about her decision. This week we have a first session.

In the meantime, in just the past two weeks, I feel like I'm starting to be back in my own skin. I feel like I don't know where or who I was for months prior. Our home life is civil and 'pleasant', at least for the kids. We talk about our days, but not about us. She sleeps in another room, will not kiss me, but will hug me hello/goodbye.

As I get my head screwed back on, I'm concerned that the technique of being aloof and distant--a technique which I've used successfully in the past--will not work in this case. I'm beginning to suspect she's having a MLC of her own.

Good lord, I've about written a novel here...apologies for the length.
Thank you for any help or advice.
Posted By: Cadet Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/22/12 11:12 AM
Welcome to the board.

Divorce = SPACE

She is asking for SPACE, give it to her.
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.

Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.

USE it wisely.
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/22/12 12:54 PM
Sorry you are here Crushd but as they say on here its the best place to be during this awful sitch.

I certainly can empathize w/ you. My w hit me w/ a bomb which seemed out of nowhere and moved out 8 months ago. Looking back their were signs but she never once sat me down or communicated how unhappy she was and I feel never really tried to work on us.

Anyhow, I thought I was going to die and it took me months to get to a point where I could make it through a day semi-productively. Buckle up because it is going to be a long ride.

What Cadet says is above is great and simple but by no means is it easy. Keep posting as much as possible and now is the time for you to dig deep to see what things you brought to the M that need to be worked on in order for you to become the best possible person that you can.

Best of Luck!!
Posted By: Cadet Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/24/12 12:50 PM
Not sure that there is anything different in your second thread, please point it out to us if there is.
Posted By: Dory Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/24/12 04:02 PM
Hi crushd,

I'm really sorry you've found yourself here, it's a brutal situation to be in. There's lots of great advice and wisdom to be found here.

I've got to tell you, your story really jumped out at me. Nearly everything you've described seems so eerily familiar: The chronic external stresses, lack of sexual intimacy, depressions, feelings of abandonment, right down to the lack of emotions when the bomb is dropped.

I know too well that feeling of having the rug pulled out from under you. It's gut wrenching. In my own sitch I had made the grave mistake of assuming that the distance between my H and I was the result of all the recent stresses that had been placed upon us and that given time, life and our M would settle back to normal again.

I'd like to recommend (along with DB & DR) that you read John Gottman's Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. I read this book under the advice of my therapist and I must tell you, it gave me a very clear picture of what had really gone wrong in my M. It showed me that the external stresses in life, although were a contributor, there was far more going on than what I had initially realised or was willing to accept. I will forewarn you, that reading this book and the light that it shed left me incredibly sad about what had really gone wrong in my M and why my H was/is feeling the way he is feeling about us. Despite all that, it gave me a clear understanding on what really needs to change if I wish to have any hope of restoring my M.

At his point, I think it's a good idea to try to stick to the 37 rules/guidelines. I read in James Dobson's book, Love Must be Tough that the WAS is typically feeling trapped & obligated and the LBS needs to pull back to reduce the pressure the WAS is feeling. I'm wondering why it is that you suspect that going dim, or in your words "aloof and distant" would backfire in your case? Can you elaborate on why you feel that way?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/24/12 08:19 PM
I have some questions, if you don't mind. First, why do you think she's having a MLC?

Second, why didn't you go to a doctor way back when you first started having the depression? Why did it take her dropping the bomb before you took action to get better? Within two weeks you can already tell a difference in your feelings! I bet that could tick your W off, except for one reason.....she's done with it.

Why were the two of you seeing a therapist 2.5 yrs ago and then ten years ago? Was it your W who wanted you to see somebody? Did she feel the M improved afterward?

If your M survives, it will be b/c you start becoming the man you should have been for years. I believe it is harder for a woman staying with a depressed man than the other way around....mainly b/c the way we are wired. We believe men are suppose to be the stronger vessel, and when he's depressed it can put him in a very unattractive light that makes him appear weaker than the W. Women are not attracted to men who are emotionally weaker than she is. Now, most women can deal with it for a while, and especially if he seems to be trying to help himself get out of the depressed state. But if he's not doing anything about the depression (like taking antidepressants), she begins to feel anger & resentment, and she begins to lose respect for him.

You've got a long road ahead of you. It will take a lot of emotional strength, energy, and strong determination that you are going to become the best man you have ever been.

You've made the first step by getting medication. Now listen, do not stop taking your meds when you start feeling better. It is very important to stay on them b/c you've been this way for years and you may have to take AD from now on.....but so what? If that's what it takes, then do it. Your family will appreciate it! I'm sure it has not been a picnic living with you.

You need to read Michele's article on the home page here, the WAW Syndrome. It sounds similar to MLC. One things for sure.....she has walked away in her heart.

Please post every day b/c that will build up your support system here on the site.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/26/12 07:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Cadet
Not sure that there is anything different in your second thread, please point it out to us if there is.

Sorry, it's a duplicate.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/26/12 07:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Dory
I'd like to recommend (along with DB & DR) that you read John Gottman's Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work.

Thank you for the reply as well as the suggestion, I'll check it out. I've read DR.

Quote:
I'm wondering why it is that you suspect that going dim, or in your words "aloof and distant" would backfire in your case? Can you elaborate on why you feel that way?

I'm concerned that her dropping the bomb is a reaction to feeling my detachment already from having a severe relapse of depression since Sept. Recently, I've been following the "37 suggestions" as it were, but I see more signs of relief than change.

Also, in doing some of the things that one's not supposed to do, such as delivering her flowers with a specially worded note from early in our M, I kinda got the impression that it challenged her point of view. But really I don't know. Maybe it was just her feeling resentment...
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/26/12 08:08 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
I have some questions, if you don't mind. First, why do you think she's having a MLC?

That is based my observation of her rather spontaneous decision to return to school after years of being a SAHM. Maybe I don't have my terms right, I'm not 100% about MLC vs. WAW yet.

Quote:
Second, why didn't you go to a doctor way back when you first started having the depression? Why did it take her dropping the bomb before you took action to get better? Within two weeks you can already tell a difference in your feelings! I bet that could tick your W off, except for one reason.....she's done with it.

Depression, for me, is a numbing monster. It isn't obvious to me from the inside that it is occurring. It's not feeling sad, it's not feeling.
I did make some half-hearted attempts. I spent 8 hrs over a couple days trying to get an appointment that takes my insurance. Without belaboring the details, it didn't pan out and my demons told me it didn't matter anyway.

I have no idea why the bomb motivated me. Desperation, shock, or trauma I suppose.

Quote:
Why were the two of you seeing a therapist 2.5 yrs ago and then ten years ago? Was it your W who wanted you to see somebody? Did she feel the M improved afterward?

In hindsight, the reason had to do with her passive aggressive behavior over our friction over her perceived imbalance in the household chores, including general tasks for taking care of the kids (e.g., making lunches). I found this peculiar as I've spent most of our M freeing her of obligations (e.g., hiring someone to clean the house regularly, doing all the cooking, doing the bulk of the dishes to just be able to cook, etc).

In other words, I thought there was a balance where I was doing 50% of the chores while going to school full time and simultaneously working part-time, while she had no job or other responsibilities. I definitely felt and still feel an utter lack of gratitude for my contributions, as if I'm reduced to a nuisance (e.g., sex, interaction) or a convenience (e.g., do her chores for her).

I'm a bit surprised to find myself feeling some anger and resentment about that situation as I type this out.

Quote:
...You've made the first step by getting medication. Now listen, do not stop taking your meds when you start feeling better. It is very important to stay on them b/c you've been this way for years and you may have to take AD from now on.....but so what? If that's what it takes, then do it. Your family will appreciate it! I'm sure it has not been a picnic living with you.

Thanks, certainly good advice...30 days with no drinking, I've been exercising, meds are clearly effective for me, getting out with friends, and performing nearly all the household tasks (which actually makes me feel good rather than resentful).

Quote:
You need to read Michele's article on the home page here, the WAW Syndrome. It sounds similar to MLC. One things for sure.....she has walked away in her heart.

Will do. And yes, she has walked away.
I'm also realizing over the past few days, regardless of my very real blame for this, is the fact that this worsened considerably when she started taking phentermine. A side effect of that is emotional detachment. I don't' know, I'm probably grasping at straws.

Quote:
Please post every day b/c that will build up your support system here on the site.

I think I needed to hear that, thank you.
Posted By: Accuray Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/26/12 08:28 PM
I had the same problem -- W's main complaint was "lack of quality time and connection" so detaching and giving space seemed to fly in the face of making things better.

First, "giving space" doesn't need to mean "aloof and distant", it can also mean "pleasant and independent" -- that's really what you're going for. Think of it like applying a "friend standard" -- what level of intimacy do you expect from your friends at work? You probably don't expect them to kiss or hug you. When you try to engage them and they're not interested, you don't care that much. It's like "hey, I'm going to get a cup of coffee, do you want to go?" If they say "no", you go anyway and don't give it a second thought. There is no reason for them to feel guilty for not joining you. That's the space you want to give -- there is no reason to feel guilty for not engaging with you. You have no expectations about things you're "owed" or what your friend "should do for you".

Does that distinction make sense?

You need W to "see" a future with you where you are a fun, strong, independent person who's going to add more to her life than you detract. There is *nothing* you can do to paint that picture with words, you can only demonstrate it with actions, and those actions need to be repeated again and again and again. It's like retraining. If you teach your dog to "speak" and give him a treat when he does, you may find that his barking becomes annoying. If you now just don't give him a treat you haven't retrained him, he views it as an exception to the rule. Only through never rewarding barking again and instead rewarding other behaviors do you change the dog's perception of your relationship.

Although you felt your first post was long, it wasn't long enough. More details are better. Here are some things to think about and maybe post about:

1) What patterns have defined your marriage, both good and bad?

2) What initially brought you together?

3) What do you have in common?

4) What makes you individuals in your marriage?

5) What do you respect most about each other?

6) If you envision your future with W, what does it look like?

Your expectations right now are your worst enemy. You will expect that whatever you "do" to improve the situation should make things better on some "reasonable" timeline. Unfortunately, your actions will have less impact than you expect for far longer than you would like. Expect that there are no guarantees. Expect that W owes you nothing and may choose not to engage. Expect that whatever effort you put into improving yourself will pay off in one way or another, either with W or without her.

Accuray
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/26/12 10:33 PM
Quote:
In hindsight, the reason had to do with her passive aggressive behavior over our friction over her perceived imbalance in the household chores, including general tasks for taking care of the kids (e.g., making lunches). I found this peculiar as I've spent most of our M freeing her of obligations (e.g., hiring someone to clean the house regularly, doing all the cooking, doing the bulk of the dishes to just be able to cook, etc).

In other words, I thought there was a balance where I was doing 50% of the chores while going to school full time and simultaneously working part-time, while she had no job or other responsibilities. I definitely felt and still feel an utter lack of gratitude for my contributions, as if I'm reduced to a nuisance (e.g., sex, interaction) or a convenience (e.g., do her chores for her).


That's amazing! I have a difficult time understanding why you thought you were suppose to do half of the chores even though she was a SAHM. Did you see your dad doing that when you were growing up?

I wonder if she thought she could not please you with how she kept house, cooked, etc. You did everything, taking all responsibility from her. Instead of her appreciating it, she may have resented it and thought you had no confidence in her abilities.

Another thought is that some people have a hard time respecting the one who does everything for them. Kind of like a spoiled child whose parents never make him do anything. When the kid grows up, he is terrible! He thinks others should do his work for him b/c he was never made to do it. I have actually known women who had H's that were like you, and the women had no sexual attraction for them and did not respect them.

Congrats on going 30 days without drinking! Do you have a support group or going to AA?
Posted By: NvrSayNvr Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/26/12 11:40 PM
Cadet: You said, "Divorce = Space" Could you elaborate on that? Briefly, my MLC husband walked away 12/10/11. I've spent the better part of the past 3 months doing all the wrong things, and he filed for divorce 3/5/12. Without knowing I was doing it, I started "the last resort" last Wednesday. I hoping against hope that at the very least he will stop these divorce proceedings before it reaches completion - I'm in California, so it takes a minimum of 6 months from when I was served (3/19/12).

I apologizing for hijacking on the thread........that commentabout divorce just made my heart skip a beat.
Posted By: NvrSayNvr Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/26/12 11:50 PM
Cadet: re: Divorce = SPACE

Could you elaborate on that? My MLC husband walked away 12/10/11. I have done everything wrong in that time - begging, apologizing, etc. He filed for divorce 3/5/12. Without realizing I was doing it, I decided to "Last Resort" the situation last Wednesday.

I am hoping against hope that by going dark I can give him enough space to cool down a bit. He is in full replay mode right now.

Thank you
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/28/12 04:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Accuray
First, "giving space" doesn't need to mean "aloof and distant", it can also mean "pleasant and independent" -- that's really what you're going for. Think of it like applying a "friend standard" -- what level of intimacy do you expect from your friends at work? You probably don't expect them to kiss or hug you. When you try to engage them and they're not interested, you don't care that much. It's like "hey, I'm going to get a cup of coffee, do you want to go?" If they say "no", you go anyway and don't give it a second thought. There is no reason for them to feel guilty for not joining you. That's the space you want to give -- there is no reason to feel guilty for not engaging with you. You have no expectations about things you're "owed" or what your friend "should do for you".

Does that distinction make sense?


Completely and I totally agree. I like this lens; I wasn't really thinking of it in that way.

Where I'm still unsure about this approach is really nuance.
For instance, should I even give her a hug if she looks like she would need one; should I initiate any sort of non-seductive and non-threatening physical contact at any time, like a kiss on the forehead goodnight or a simple touch on her head like I do the kids, etc.

In other words, I'm concerned that I could come off in her eyes looking even more neglectful.

Here's a good example. Last Saturday was her birthday. I've not been pursuing for at least 2 weeks. It would be unusual for me not to celebrate her birthday, or for that matter one of her friends. I gave her a surprise hot air balloon ride--and made it very clear that it wasn't a date, it would have other people 100% of the time, and no matter happens we need to find a way to just be comfortable with each other. She was pleasantly surprised and seemed to have a good time. I also made dinner (which I usually do anyway).

But, I'm unclear if this was really a good idea or not.

Quote:
You need W to "see" a future with you where you are a fun, strong, independent person who's going to add more to her life than you detract. There is *nothing* you can do to paint that picture with words, you can only demonstrate it with actions, and those actions need to be repeated again and again and again. It's like retraining. If you teach your dog to "speak" and give him a treat when he does, you may find that his barking becomes annoying. If you now just don't give him a treat you haven't retrained him, he views it as an exception to the rule. Only through never rewarding barking again and instead rewarding other behaviors do you change the dog's perception of your relationship.


GAL.
Be consistent.
Also, stop my barking...

Quote:
Although you felt your first post was long, it wasn't long enough. More details are better. Here are some things to think about and maybe post about:
1) What patterns have defined your marriage, both good and bad?


I'm only now starting to see these things, and I'm having a hard time thinking of *patterns* which are positive. The most positively reinforcing thing, which will sound odd, is a pattern of spontaneity of travel, seeing concerts, having fancy dinner, surprise gifts, etc.

Negatively, we have a pattern where I seek emotional support, she doesn't provide it, I get frustrated/angry, she gets passive aggressive, and nothing ever gets resolved.


Quote:

2) What initially brought you together?
3) What do you have in common?
4) What makes you individuals in your marriage?
5) What do you respect most about each other?
6) If you envision your future with W, what does it look like?


I'll come back on these later...these are thoughtful questions and I need to think about these more as to not give flip responses.

Quote:
Your expectations right now are your worst enemy. You will expect that whatever you "do" to improve the situation should make things better on some "reasonable" timeline. Unfortunately, your actions will have less impact than you expect for far longer than you would like. Expect that there are no guarantees. Expect that W owes you nothing and may choose not to engage. Expect that whatever effort you put into improving yourself will pay off in one way or another, either with W or without her.


This is a hard pill to swallow, obviously. I don't have timeframe expectations. I do have a sense that she's hiding something that helps explain the sudden jump to divorce (some hidden trauma, that the pregnancy wasn't mine, a PA or EA, I have no idea) and I'm trying very hard to let it go inside myself and let it come to the surface naturally.

I'm doing my damnedest to GAL, as I plan to have a L no matter what.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/28/12 04:55 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
That's amazing! I have a difficult time understanding why you thought you were suppose to do half of the chores even though she was a SAHM. Did you see your dad doing that when you were growing up?


She makes a distinction between 'housewife' and SAHM. The former involves the particulars of housekeeping: laundry, cooking, vacuuming, cleaning. In this context, she will tell you clearly she's a terrible housewife and loathes the concept. The latter SAHM is a different framework: childcare, the kids laundry, picking up after the kids, dropping off/picking up, doing their laundry, making them food. In that context, she's an awesome SAHM.

Regarding my dad when I was growing up, I do recognize the amount of time he spent doing "housework" in a broad context. He constantly was fixing things, updating cabinetry, painting, building a patio/porch, did all the landscaping and outdoor maintenance, took care of the autos. I'd say there was a fair balance between them from this perspective.

Quote:
I wonder if she thought she could not please you with how she kept house, cooked, etc. You did everything, taking all responsibility from her. Instead of her appreciating it, she may have resented it and thought you had no confidence in her abilities.


Maybe, but my sense is she didn't resent it. Instead, she came to expect it. I gave her a life of leisure where she could pursue her art, including paying huge $'s for her acting schooling. I bought the house, the cars, the insurance, everything--but I don't feel any sense of gratitude for these things from her.

Part of it is also my sense that sacrifice is a behavioral aspect of love. This doesn't mean sacrificing myself, but providing for her desires even when they might conflict with my desires. For example, working at a crappy but good paying job.

Maybe I'm just a sucker. Maybe she's done with me because she's gotten everything she ever wanted from me, including kids and now a career (for the first time). If that's the case, I think she might be in for a rude awakening when she has to do 100% (that is 100% half of the time if we were to have joint custody) of the housework, work full-time--or more, all the finances, take care of the kids alone, and have no spousal emotional support. I'm kinda suspecting that a part of the WAW is a fantasy of freedom, but the reality for us both is that it will be met with an onslaught of obligation on top of emotional struggle.

Quote:
Another thought is that some people have a hard time respecting the one who does everything for them. Kind of like a spoiled child whose parents never make him do anything. When the kid grows up, he is terrible! He thinks others should do his work for him b/c he was never made to do it. I have actually known women who had H's that were like you, and the women had no sexual attraction for them and did not respect them.


Yeah, I could see that. I'm not confident this is the case with us--maybe, I just don't know. It's hard to write about these things and they can come across much too generalized. For instance, she's definitely worked very hard to be a really good SAHM. Her lack of specific sexual attraction I believe is more related to her being a survivor of sexual abuse as a teen.

Quote:
Congrats on going 30 days without drinking! Do you have a support group or going to AA?


Thanks! It feels good. I don't feel the need for an AA support group at this point. In other words, I'm not confident I have a chronic drinking "problem", but I damn sure was drinking too much those few months just to cope. Hell, I had to have a drink just to approach her intimately and not be anxious of being rejected again.

Heh, all that probably reads "denial"...

More than anything, I definitely need to not have more depressants in my life right now. It's part of my GAL for the time being. I've been looking for SmartRecovery groups in my area though, as well as group D support.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/29/12 04:09 AM
We have our second post-bomb couples counseling session coming up in a few days.

I could really use any advice at all about how to handle myself. I'm reflecting on how to apply this approach while actually in a therapy session with the W.

Does anyone have any advice on topics/issues into which NOT to delve during the session at this point?

Is it helpful for me to hold back expressing certain emotions or certain levels of emotions?

Are there any topics I should just plain avoid completely?

Anything I should really focus on?
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/29/12 03:49 PM
One of the many things confusing me is W's self-described thinking process to arrive at the decision for the D, and W's extreme attitude not wanting to let others know about the bomb.

W explains that after the previously described 'moment of clarity' and 2.5 months of hesitating to share the decision for D with me, she has not discussed the matter with anyone but two old mutual friends. Both these female friends have gone through Ds and in both cases W hasn't spoken to the friends in maybe 7 years. And, in both cases the friends were divorced due to physical and emotional abuse.

Also, in both cases W describes the conversations as one-time and as definitely not having shared plans for the bomb (just "indirect conversations about problems in our M"). W describes the process of making the decision as "completely internal". In fact, W also describes this as the reason she acquieced go to couples counseling--when I was pursuing, I described it as an unfair unilateral decision.

Additionally, she has gone out of her way several times to clarify the people who know about the bomb. She was initially angry, but then understanding, that I shared the information with my mom with whom I sought to provide me emotional support; she knows the W well and has gone through a D.

Also, when I went to hang out recently with a male friend who is M'd to one of her close friends, she directly asked that I not talk about or mention the bomb to my friend. I didn't have any plans to do so, but I was rather taken aback by the W's request. W actually woke me very early before either one of us would normally be awake to point out she's not shared this and suggest that I not either.

From one point of view, this isn't a matter I'd normally discuss with very many other people, but we all do need emotional support. That said, I'm trying to understand why W is treating this as a big secret.

Here are some theories, but they may be way off base:
1. W doesn't want to look like "the bad guy" to her friends.
2. W has dealt with this as an internal matter. Letting anyone else know would necessitate her having to explain herself to them, yet she has barely explained herself to me.
3. W would be challenged by some close friends who would find D in this circumstance generally immoral.
4. W doesn't want me to have support to apply pressure on me to agree to move forward with the D.
5. W would be challenged to clarify her beliefs and wants to avoid this.
6. W is actually using the LRT on me.

I'm not suggesting letting the 'cat out of the bag', although if #3 or #5 above happens to be true, I might be convinced to make a 'slip of the tongue' to the right person. I observe a big difference between letting people know and having in-depth conversations with friends who'd likely be looking out for my solo interests, not the M. But to be clear, I'm not planning this.

Can anyone share any perspective on this?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/30/12 12:04 AM
Quote:
I could really use any advice at all about how to handle myself. I'm reflecting on how to apply this approach while actually in a therapy session with the W.

Does anyone have any advice on topics/issues into which NOT to delve during the session at this point?

Is it helpful for me to hold back expressing certain emotions or certain levels of emotions?

Are there any topics I should just plain avoid completely?

Anything I should really focus on?


What's the point in having a couple's therapy session?
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/30/12 01:59 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
[quote]What's the point in having a couple's therapy session?


I guess I don't know what you mean exactly. Do you mean that our M is hopeless, that's it's not worthwhile at this point, or are you asking what are my goals?

It's my goal to reconcile and save our M. Second, it's to help me better understand how we arrived at this point and my own role in helping produce it.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/30/12 03:06 AM
"One of the many things confusing me is W's self-described thinking process to arrive at the decision for the D, and W's extreme attitude not wanting to let others know about the bomb."

It's because she wants to remain "in control". She'll blame you for "making" her feel the way she does, but bottomline is that she wants to control the situation so she won't get hurt.

Sandi was asking about the C because, to be honest, at this stage of the game it won't work. We've all learned it the hard way and it's written in DB. I forgot to see if you've read it.

In your W's "moment of clarity", did she say why she wanted a D? I mean real reasons. Is it that she lost respect for you or whatever?

Don't lose hope. First thing you need to do is to stop assuming all the blame of this happening. It doesn't do anyone any good. You can turn the ship around but you have to be strong to do it. I would strongly suggest you go to C just for yourself and DEFINITELY change your username.

If you call yourself "crushd" that is how you will remain. Change it to something more positive and strong. Then believe it and live it.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/30/12 05:53 PM
Originally Posted By: MrBond
It's because she wants to remain "in control". She'll blame you for "making" her feel the way she does, but bottomline is that she wants to control the situation so she won't get hurt.

That seems quite obvious now...but only after you pointed it out to me. I don't know why this didn't occur to me, but you're definitely on to something.

Quote:
Sandi was asking about the C because, to be honest, at this stage of the game it won't work. We've all learned it the hard way and it's written in DB. I forgot to see if you've read it.

I read DR, not DB. It doesn't explicitly say don't use C, but here I am wondering how not to backslide during C... Right or wrong, one thing I am hoping comes out of C is having W access her emotions, even if in a limited way where I'm not the one provoking. W usually wears them on her sleeve, yet since the bomb has been unusually and steadfastly stoic in all matters related to the future--an expression of control.
For what it's worth, the C is EFT which is very much geared accessing emotions to get to the crux of issues, with an eye toward the future without rehashing the past.

I'm thinking *I* need to exercise greater self-control during C, and for the time being be more matter of fact than emotionally expressive.

Quote:
In your W's "moment of clarity", did she say why she wanted a D? I mean real reasons. Is it that she lost respect for you or whatever?

No, that's one of the things with which I'm really struggling. I tried to find this out asking from several directions when I was pursuing as well as during our C. The closest detail I've gotten is "we've grown apart". W denies EA and PA. She also explicitly says she's as much to blame as I am, but then quickly points out that means we're both blameless. I'm suspecting that WAW, at least in this case, is coming out of a place of fear, from a place of lack of control--and a loss of confidence/respect that I can help provide those controls due to my MLC and depression.

Quote:
Don't lose hope. First thing you need to do is to stop assuming all the blame of this happening. It doesn't do anyone any good. You can turn the ship around but you have to be strong to do it. I would strongly suggest you go to C just for yourself and DEFINITELY change your username.

Thanks for the needed encouragement--It's so freaking hard not to lose hope some days.
I'm really finding it hard to reconcile the idea that I shouldn't shoulder all the blame with the entire DR approach. If I partly blame the W, I start to feel resentful or angry. If I blame myself, I get sad and remorseful. I'm not really one to blame the universe on these sorts of situations. I'm feel like struggling. I'm trying to simply forgive myself, and W, for the situation we are in. But, I'm having a hard time forgiving the things I'm not comprehending, like W's rational for the D.

Quote:
If you call yourself "crushd" that is how you will remain. Change it to something more positive and strong. Then believe it and live it.

Damn.
This really hits home with me...this is really about a shift or rebuild of my own identity, isn't it. I mean, all of it. Again, how could I have not known or seen that?
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 03/30/12 06:34 PM
An update...it's been a little over a month since the bomb.
I don't quite know how to write this update, but I think it'll be good for me to try to at least list out some observations of our interaction.

GAL:
1. Stopped drinking.
2. Started antidepressants, which are seriously helping. Frequently feeling sad, but not feeling numb or vacant.
3. Working out 3-4 times a week. Not a secret, but W doesn't know.
4. Occasionally hanging out with friends.
5. Getting a symbolic tattoo next week. Not a secret, but W doesn't know.
6. Getting IC
7. Compiling legal/financial advice to know my options and protect myself should D become even more likely.

The M:
1. 2-3 weeks of 180s.
2. One C session which seemed to do no harm, but didn't tell either of us anything new (more getting the therapist up to speed), another C next week.
3. Hired a DB coach. The most salient point she made was to view the 180s, as well as any opportunity for physical interaction (e.g., a hug, kiss on the forehead) through a lens of "does this make me more attractive". This was hugely helpful for me to clear up my hesitation about the "aloof and distant" issues with the 180s and better define what are my goals.
4. Right or wrong, provided the birthday surprise I previously mentioned. This seemed warmly received.
5. Outside of the one C, no discussion of the M or the D at all, not one little bit.

Good/bad signals:
1. Over the past week or so, realized that W is asking for more "favors" than usual, and ones that are timesinks or commitments for me (e.g., can you take the kids to school even though I worked 16 hrs straight and got to bed at 2am, or is it ok that I invited a playdate over for the D/7 when W will be at the doctor). Maybe W is checking boundaries. I'm thinking I need to find opportunities to say no.
2. W woke me up to see the S/D cuddled up together in some serious cuteness.
3. W briefly put her head and hand on my shoulder when we were together watching a goodbye speech for one of the S's influential teachers.
4. W went well out of her way to try to let me sleep in today (even if the S/D didn't).
5. W is suddenly not coy about some things again--like nudity getting dressed. Or watching and talking to me as I undress to take a shower.
6. W is performing chores regularly, and then some (like organizing). I've responded in kind, and consistently.
7. W is cracking jokes with me, and vice-versa. We've actually had a couple belly laughs over the past week.
8. W has made several references to longer term things she'd like us to do, mostly about the house or landscaping. Maybe this is just to improve the $ of the house, I don't know.
9. A person close to myself, and especially W, is about to pass away. W has reached out to me several times to briefly discuss.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/02/12 10:26 PM
We went to our second couples counseling session today.
Maybe some progress, I don't know.

She definitely mentioned having a marked sense of relief over the past two weeks (since I started 180s and since the antidepressants really kicked in). Oddly, over that period of time we talked exactly 0 times about our M. We have actually had a pretty good time, occasionally laughing and joking.

She started getting really emotional for the first time, actually crying for the first time since the bomb. This time, in counseling, I expressed my emotions but didn't wear them on my sleeve.

We talked about some serious attachment problems which occurred early in our relationship which involved her giving me some ultimatums instead of trying to talk about any of it with me, and my sacrificing things for her and getting exactly no gratitude. And my feeling like I've been fighting for a long time for her to be 100% committed to our M, and my insecurity/abandonment fears due to my parents' D.

What's weird to me is that she keeps talking in a way where she mentions how much we've worked and worked on our M--but refers to events that literally happened in the 1990s...it's like she's using some sort of internal emotional reference point from way back then as part of her way of finding her strength to walk away.

She mentioned how she's been really anxious to bring things up to me, including the bomb, because she's afraid I'll get angry and she'll feel blame/guilt for it.
She talked about her biggest fear being that the kids will be hurt--but still doesn't seem to get that D is a huge hurt for them no matter what.

She talked about how afraid she is that if we do D that I'll tell the kids something like "it's because mommy doesn't love me anymore" and she'd find that devastating--which is confusing to me because for the moment, it's exactly true. Or that I might do something like fight for custody.

I'm starting to believe that she's massively avoiding her sense of blame and actually feels ashamed--and wants to hide that from our friends, family, and kids.
I now think she's rationalized this WAW flight as some sort of protection of the children--which is going to make it difficult for her to back out of this decision easily, if she does at all.

I think she wants to control this situation, but is slowly realizing that how I act if we move forward on a D is not something under her control, and is petrified.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/06/12 04:12 PM
Quote:
She talked about how afraid she is that if we do D that I'll tell the kids something like "it's because mommy doesn't love me anymore" and she'd find that devastating--which is confusing to me because for the moment, it's exactly true. Or that I might do something like fight for custody.


Because in spite of what she does or how she feels toward you and the M, she doesn't want her children to think she's bad.

My children were grown when I had an EA, but I will never forget the terror I felt at the possibility they would be told by my H what I had done. One of the most horrible things I've ever said to him, was when I told him I would hate him until the day I died if he ever told my kids. An "ultimatum" was all I had to throw at him. I was crazy enough to actually believe he loved me to the point of covering my actions and the truth from our kids.
Posted By: Redo Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/06/12 07:27 PM
Ouroboros : "batteries?" : Are you a fan of 'Red dwarf" ? Awesome series!

On a more serious note, It is great you are here, finding help. I can relate a bit to your situation. I too was depressed during the waning days of our marriage. That is when my wife filed because she could not handle it anymore. After more than a year of ups and downs, i can say this: Make yourself happy, without your family. The moment you are happy all by yourself and genuinely at peace with everything, you will find that your wife will gravitate towards you. You are already seeing that with your 180's. But getting out of that pit of depression is the key.

Good luck!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/06/12 07:55 PM
I'd like to encourage you to post more often, b/c some folks may lose heart and think you've stopped posting at all. It happens.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/06/12 08:03 PM
Originally Posted By: ouroboros
What's weird to me is that she keeps talking in a way where she mentions how much we've worked and worked on our M--but refers to events that literally happened in the 1990s...it's like she's using some sort of internal emotional reference point from way back then as part of her way of finding her strength to walk away.


Many here make a strong assertion that whether WAS or MLC, the work is the same for the LBS.

Also, even the use of the labels of WAS, MLC and LBS can be harmful in the sense that we become the labels, when the labels do not define who we are nor the uniqueness of each one of our sitchs...

Having written that disclaimer, I did want to point out the above in bold, as if that is the case, then there is a possibility that your W is in some sort of crises that can occur for some people around mid life. As that is a journey that often has the person having to reconcile past events and integrating them into their current life in hopefully a constructive way.

Maybe crises (which is generally correlates with some perceived traumatic event) or simply a benign transition brought about by her desire to ground and centre herself so she can consider and plan her future.

The above is just a wordy way of saying:

That's possibly not odd because your W could be going through and MLC...

grin
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/07/12 11:59 AM
What does success look like?
I see some little glimpses of 180s working.
I'm not trying to hurry, I know this is a long road.

But what does it look like?
After years of patterns of passive aggression and avoiding conflict, what does it look like to begin to reconcile?

When it happens, how does it happen?
How does it begin?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/07/12 02:30 PM
It usually comes in spoonful sizes. There are certain things that will take time to correct or rebuild. For instance, changing the passive behavior takes time, but even moreso to convince her that you won't be that passive man any longer. The reason being, you can't prove it by words. She'll have to see for herself, and that takes time.

Success can start by catching a certain look in her eyes. Hearing a particular tone in her voice. Seeing her be more cooperative with you. This can be small glimpses of success, but it can also become an unhealthy pattern a LBH falls into by watching her too closely for reactions and reading into her every look or word.

One of the biggest signs that progress is being made is when you are able to look into her face and see that she truly "wants" to be with you (not b/c some C assigned her to work on being together), she wants to go do whatever you want to do and hang out where you decide. But here's an important issue: She wants you to be decisive and not lay back and tell her you're fine with whatever she wants. Women don't like that. Once in a great while is fine, but not all the time.

I remember one time being asked out on a date, and when he came to get me, he was asking me where I wanted to go. I didn't know how much he could afford and he was the one who asked me out, so he was the "planner", the decider, etc. To much extent, I think women want the men to continue doing that after they're M. That's not to say you're to treat her like she doesn't have enough sense to know how to order from a menu. You have to stay balanced.

I don't think you were passive before M, or she would not have M you (unless she just wanted to get M to anyone, b/c it goes against thee nature of the woman.

How does success look? Do you know how respect looks? If so, then you will recognize success.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/07/12 04:34 PM
Originally Posted By: mykarma
Ouroboros : "batteries?" : Are you a fan of 'Red dwarf" ? Awesome series!

YES!! That was definitely on my mind. Thank you-it's been a while since I've smiled this broadly smile smile

And, more seriously, I've (although not alone) definitely given birth to my own situation. Now, I intend to keep on keeping on, and define my own destiny. Somehow.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/07/12 04:36 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
I'd like to encourage you to post more often, b/c some folks may lose heart and think you've stopped posting at all. It happens.


Thanks.
I've actually been a little reluctant because it looks like there weren't many follow-ups. But I just realized I've been looking a web cache...
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/07/12 04:53 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
It usually comes in spoonful sizes. There are certain things that will take time to correct or rebuild. For instance, changing the passive behavior takes time, but even moreso to convince her that you won't be that passive man any longer. The reason being, you can't prove it by words. She'll have to see for herself, and that takes time.
Success can start by catching a certain look in her eyes. Hearing a particular tone in her voice. Seeing her be more cooperative with you. This can be small glimpses of success, but it can also become an unhealthy pattern a LBH falls into by watching her too closely for reactions and reading into her every look or word.


Yeah, got it--I'm definitely not overanalyzing it as best I can.
And some of those little glimpses are happening, although sometimes they are followed by a quick retreat the next day by W.
But, it's my style to take on anything with the end in mind.
So, part of it is my wondering what the way out of this might look like--and I have a specific concern.

W is not exactly stubborn, but will frequently avoid deep interactions.
And, I'm reasonably sure there's an EA going on.
So, I'm concerned that even if she does get on board to reconcile, she might hesitate because of the emotional weight and effort it took to confront me in the first place.
I guess I'm wondering, well, just what this might look like if W starts trying to really come back to the M, but is up against that wall.
Would it be a shrug and a hug? Crying remorse? Anger?

I think I'm concerned it'll look like avoidance. Just W's same 'sweep it under the rug' kind of attitude that was one of the moving pieces in this puzzle.


Quote:
One of the biggest signs that progress is being made is when you are able to look into her face and see that she truly "wants" to be with you (not b/c some C assigned her to work on being together), she wants to go do whatever you want to do and hang out where you decide. But here's an important issue: She wants you to be decisive and not lay back and tell her you're fine with whatever she wants. Women don't like that. Once in a great while is fine, but not all the time.

I don't think you were passive before M, or she would not have M you (unless she just wanted to get M to anyone, b/c it goes against thee nature of the woman.


Interesting--I've definitely been more decisive about things lately.
And, she's not shying away from spending time with me.

That said, I think she may have also gone on a date the other night.

Quote:
How does success look? Do you know how respect looks? If so, then you will recognize success.


I wonder if it would look like gratitude.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/07/12 04:56 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Because in spite of what she does or how she feels toward you and the M, she doesn't want her children to think she's bad.


I think that's part of it.
I also think she doesn't want to be the bad guy in all this.
It's avoiding shame. And avoiding her own loss of self-respect, I think.
In W's words during C, I can "fall back on the excuse of depression".
But I think she doesn't have an excuse, if you follow my meaning.
Posted By: Redo Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/09/12 04:58 PM
Quote:
YES!! That was definitely on my mind. Thank you-it's been a while since I've smiled this broadly


Quote:
And, more seriously, I've (although not alone) definitely given birth to my own situation. Now, I intend to keep on keeping on, and define my own destiny. Somehow.
Lol. That's funny. Yea in a way we do give birth to our own situations. But the day we realize that, we will be able to heal and move forward. Referring to RD, be like the "Cat", not like "Rimmer"!
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/10/12 05:04 PM
So, the other night, W had plans to meet with work friends for dinner/drinks while I watched the kids. After her primping and getting fancily dressed, on her way out, I told her completely off the cuff and without even thinking about it to "enjoy your date...you know, with your colleagues". I didn't say it spitefully or with any tone of voice, just 'hey, have a good time'. At first W gets a horrified look on her face until she hears me say 'colleagues'.

W comes home late, and is obviously bent out of shape about something. For the first time in a long while, I initiate conversation and gently ask if she's ok.

W then tells me she had a difficult night. And, that she went by herself to see a metal concert?! I thought this was odd to say the least, but I just let her vent. W tells me that she was to meet work colleagues and they were to all go to the concert together--a going away surprise for one particular co-worker (OP).

W was the only one who bought tickets in advance--two of them. She tells me that she bought them for OP and his male friend so that they could go to the show, and the entire group was going to go the concert.

I found this odd that W bought 2 tickets--one for OP and one for friend--but not one for herself? I said nothing and just let W do the talking.

She goes on to say that she met the group, but the OP didn't meet them there. The bands they were to see were the OP's favorite bands. W tells me the group didn't want to go to the concert anyway, they wanted to go to the bar, but she didn't want to go there. She said she was a bit pissed the group didn't want to see the show, and so told them obstinately that she's going by herself so she doesn't waste the tickets.

She was clearly very bummed out when she arrived home. Why be bummed about getting to go to see a concert?

Maybe I'm a little slow on the uptake, but now it seems very clear--she's having an EA for sure, maybe also PA. I've had my suspicions before, but they've just been wild thoughts/fears. Now it seems clear to me that the OP is her co-worker, or at least was her co-worker until he recently took a new job.

I think she bought tickets for herself and the OP. But then got stood up! I doubt there was even a group, but who knows. I think W still went to the show hoping OP would end up coming late, but didn't come at all.

Then, a next day I'm fixing her computer/phone at W's request. I open the browser, and up loads all the tabs from the last session--searches about quotes for unrequited love. Without being nosy or invading privacy, I'm searching for the word 'package' to find a piece of software on the computer...and lo and behold, as the first hit up comes an email to a work account saying things about wanting to be together as a 'whole package' after the storms pass, etc. I just fixed things and said nothing.

I had my suspicions, but now it makes perfect sense to me. Of course she'd have an EA/PA--I certainly wasn't in any shape to be engaged at all. She wants freedom and feeling, I couldn't provide it, and she found it somewhere else. But, my instincts also tell me maybe--just maybe--it even was all one-sided on the part of W, rather like some flirting becoming waking fantasy. Or, possibly they were banging away at work after hours, who knows.

It would explain so much--why the jump to WAW without any conversations previous to it, the detachment from what was left of our M, the lack of feeling/concern for me (when I was asking for W's help with my depression).

Maybe she WAW'd because OP took at least a friendly interest (or more) with her, she saw a way out. Although she told me directly several times there wasn't anyone else involved, one reason given during the bomb was 'we should do this before one of us cheats on the other'. It would also clearly explain her anger when I was pursing her and sent flowers--to her work. She told me over and over again how it was very awkward and didn't know what to say about them to her co-workers. I remember thinking at the time "well, just tell them they're from your H" and noone would think twice. But if there was OP and an EA at work, and I sent flowers, maybe it screwed up her plans or at least made her have to deal with it directly.

I swear I was jumping off the walls when I figured this out, I was so relieved and happy. Hooray, my W is having a EA/PA! How messed up is that? But, for the first time I felt like I had handles on this problem. If I better understand the situation, I believe I can better influence the outcome.

I'm so happy, frustrated, and angry all at the same time. I've never had this feeling before.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/10/12 05:07 PM
Spoonfuls of positive indications the past few days.
Actually having fun together with W, both of us.
Some little signs, such as W's gentle touch on my chest when we are not having any physical contact at all.
W dropping suggestions of things we can do together in the near term--not exactly dates, but things to do together and alone.

Also, we had another C session which was very intense.
During it, W was deeply emotional in my presence for the first time since the bomb. First verbal and direct statements that maybe, just maybe, we can work through this. How she was backed into a corner and had no other options. How great it would be if we come out of this back together.

I'm not holding my breath, but this is definitely the most intense therapy I've ever been in.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/11/12 01:54 AM
Having to go to a wake for a close family friend with your WAW is a very difficult experience. I've been an internal emotional trainwreck all evening.
Posted By: AprilT Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/11/12 01:58 AM
Love and light going out to you. Hope it helps.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/11/12 01:05 PM
A surprising and genuine thank you from the W for packing the kids lunches the past two days. "It really helps me not get stressed out and get to work on time."
Doesn't she realize that D means she'll be doing this every time when the kids are with her?
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/12/12 02:29 PM
On the days my reservior of grace and humility is running dry, like today, sometimes I find myself getting really angry. Especially when I'm alone.

I feel so incredibly betrayed, used and attacked. I'm so angry about what's happening to my family and my kids. It's as if someone stole something from me right in front of my face, and is just standing there.

I find myself having *irrational* thoughts about retribution. For example, maybe I should flirt/date some random OW, or go have a physical fling. I found myself having a very irrational and fleeting vision that I was in a serious car wreck--and I confusingly got some minor pleasure out of the vision in that it would hurt W that I was physically injured and would leave her to have to take care 100% of the chores/kids.

Some days are better than others.
Originally Posted By: ouroboros
On the days my reservior of grace and humility is running dry, like today, sometimes I find myself getting really angry. Especially when I'm alone.

I feel so incredibly betrayed, used and attacked. I'm so angry about what's happening to my family and my kids. It's as if someone stole something from me right in front of my face, and is just standing there.

I find myself having *irrational* thoughts about retribution. For example, maybe I should flirt/date some random OW, or go have a physical fling. I found myself having a very irrational and fleeting vision that I was in a serious car wreck--and I confusingly got some minor pleasure out of the vision in that it would hurt W that I was physically injured and would leave her to have to take care 100% of the chores/kids.

Some days are better than others.


Hi Ouroboros

You do get days like this & I've had many of them, but that's what this forum is for, venting your frustration & allowing others to show you how to see things differently.

It's OK to have thoughts about retribution (it's natural), but I'd advise you not to, because the last thing you need right now is any more confusion in your life. You are hurting, feeling angry and at a stage where you are looking outwards for answers.

When people say detach and GAL on here, they mean it, because we can only control our actions, our feelings our choices. It took me over a month to start believing it and to stop feeling like a victim, and you know what I feel a lot better.
There is a lot of uncertaintity in my M, is my W still having an affair? Will we have a separation? Will my Kids be OK?

But all of these questions, I cannot answer, if I think about them I know I will get anxious, depressed and not be someone you'd choose to be around. Honestly, you have to let go of all the doubt, the guilt, the blame & just focus on 2 things right now. Firstly - YOU - if you want to stop feeling bad and start having good fellings and be happy again, you can't wait for them to happen, you have to take action. It can be anything - walking, running, gym - your friends a hobby - do something YOU enjoy for YOU. Secondly - you have to be a great Dad and be there for your kids, no matter what, the happier they are, the happier you will be.

I realised that our spouses choose to be with us, they don't have to be with us. You really do have to just be the best YOU - for YOU and if it wins your W back in time, it's an added bonus. But you have to do these changes for YOU and for your happiness.

I act like I've started a new relationship with my W, now because I don't want to go back to my old M, that's how I rationalise all the horrible, scary stuff in our sitch's.

Don't overthink the what IF's, just work on you & be patient.

Bill
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/12/12 11:47 PM
Have any of you used the DB coaches?

I had one DB coach meeting which was instructive.
Specifically, I'm trying to figure out when it would make sense to have a second session.

Any advice?
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/12/12 11:56 PM
Originally Posted By: mykarma
Yea in a way we do give birth to our own situations. But the day we realize that, we will be able to heal and move forward. Referring to RD, be like the "Cat", not like "Rimmer"!

Most days, I think I'm more like Lister...
Waking up in a surreal situation filled with distractions to keep you going.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/14/12 06:47 AM
Oh nice. W had a lunch date with OP.

I'm thinking that I should find a way to bring up her EA/PA during counseling.
Thoughts?
If it's individual counselling - knock yourself out and it would be good to get it all off your chest.

If it's MC and you are together, your W will not thank you for bringing it up in that environment and won't help your situation. IMO if you are going to bring it up and want to talk to her about it, do it at home.

But before you do ask her - ask yourself some questions.

How do you think she'll react?

Will it do anything to benefit you situation or the way you are feeling?

Am I ready to handle this difficult conversation without it doing any more damage to my sitch?

She might have been on the fence about seeing this OP again, but will my conversation influence her choices in the way that you want?

Just think about it, before you decide to confront her or not.

Bill
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/14/12 10:47 AM
Originally Posted By: breakdownbill
If it's individual counselling - knock yourself out and it would be good to get it all off your chest.

If it's MC and you are together, your W will not thank you for bringing it up in that environment and won't help your situation. IMO if you are going to bring it up and want to talk to her about it, do it at home.


I've talked all about it in IC. After the past week, I'm wondering about finding a gentle way to talk about it in MC.

Quote:
But before you do ask her - ask yourself some questions.
How do you think she'll react?
Will it do anything to benefit you situation or the way you are feeling?
Am I ready to handle this difficult conversation without it doing any more damage to my sitch?
She might have been on the fence about seeing this OP again, but will my conversation influence her choices in the way that you want?


I'm just having a ridiculously hard time with the deceit. I asked her directly the day after the bomb and she said there was noone else.

But, I'm thinking that this has become a rather serious EA and if I can somehow get it out of hiding, at least she'll have to own up to it. I guess what I'm wondering is if I can get it out there and open, it would be a little more "real" to her I think and less of a special secret fantasy?

It would be a very difficult conversation, which is why I was trying to get ideas how to bring it to light in MC.
Originally Posted By: ouroboros

I've talked all about it in IC. After the past week, I'm wondering about finding a gentle way to talk about it in MC.



I'm just having a ridiculously hard time with the deceit. I asked her directly the day after the bomb and she said there was noone else.

Sounds exactly how it unravelled for me too, I was told there was noone else & that it was all my fault & that she had felt unhappy for ages.

You can check out my 1st thread as to how I handled that conversation - it was far from gentle - a lot of hurt - pain & tears. Look your W is hiding it from you because she recognises that it is wrong (believe it or not that's a relatively good thing in this scenario), the reaction you don't want to get, but might is if she knows you know about it, she says she doesn't care & that she will carry on seeing them whatever you think. Prepare yourself for the worst case scenario in these conversations.


But, I'm thinking that this has become a rather serious EA and if I can somehow get it out of hiding, at least she'll have to own up to it. I guess what I'm wondering is if I can get it out there and open, it would be a little more "real" to her I think and less of a special secret fantasy?

I can see your logic, but I doubt the outcome you are hoping for will be acheived. When people say detach and let go this is a prime example. You don't see it this way yet, but you are trying to figure out a way to control an uncontrolable situation. The only way you can make this a difficult decision for your W - is by becoming a man that she would be a fool to leave. Work on yourself, you can't afford to wallow anymore, you have to do positive things to create a positive state of mind for yourself. You can do it, look at it from another perspective. Lets say you don't stay together with your W - would you stay the way you are forever? No, you would pick yourself up & live a life that makes you happy. You have to do this now, if you do it now you have an outside chance of saving your M - but your motivation has to be for a better life & better happiness for you regardless of what happens - otherwise these changes won't last.

It would be a very difficult conversation, which is why I was trying to get ideas how to bring it to light in MC.

Seriously, why do you want to bring it up in MC? Would you want to be confronted on something like this in that environment? I know I wouldn't - if you want to save your M - you have to show your W that you will protect your R no matter how fragile it is now & that her feelings and happiness is important to you. Bringing this up in MC, does neither of these things & will make you look weak to your W.

Trust me, you don't want to do this

Bill
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/15/12 02:28 AM
Originally Posted By: breakdownbill
Sounds exactly how it unravelled for me too, I was told there was noone else & that it was all my fault & that she had felt unhappy for ages.
You can check out my 1st thread as to how I handled that conversation - it was far from gentle - a lot of hurt - pain & tears.
Oh man, I read your story and I empathize--this really is the club none wants to join.
Quote:
Look your W is hiding it from you because she recognises that it is wrong (believe it or not that's a relatively good thing in this scenario),
That's one of the things I need help to understand. What's good about it?
I think there's definitely a shame factor--she's been very explicit about not letting ANY of our friends know about this. Which is why, separately, I'm motivated to let the cat out of the bag to the right person to let her get pressure from someone outside the M.
Quote:
the reaction you don't want to get, but might is if she knows you know about it, she says she doesn't care & that she will carry on seeing them whatever you think. Prepare yourself for the worst case scenario in these conversations.
The thing that's different here for me-and what I'm trying to work through-is that I'm 99% sure that the OP dumped/spurned her.
Quote:
Seriously, why do you want to bring it up in MC? Would you want to be confronted on something like this in that environment? I know I wouldn't - if you want to save your M - you have to show your W that you will protect your R no matter how fragile it is now & that her feelings and happiness is important to you. Bringing this up in MC, does neither of these things & will make you look weak to your W.
That's exactly my frustration--I do want to show her I'll protect our R--and her--to the ends of the earth. If I didnt think that OP dumped her, I don't think I'd be going down this road.

The reason for doing this in MC--and importantly, to do it in a way that was somehow indirect--is because it's the only time she's really been honest with me in about a year. It's a safe environment. We have no discussions about M or D outside of MC at this point, in part because of the DBing, but also I think because of her secrecy.

I definitely don't think it would be productive to just blurt out an accusation. So by indirect, I could ask in MC about getting a better understanding of "why now/what changed/what pushed you over the edge"? The closest thing she's given me as a reason for the D, "before one of us has an EA/PA."

I think that's W's code for "I'm having a EA/PA and I'll be ashamed if the kids and my friends find out that it was my cheating that caused our D". If the OP dumped her, and noone knows about her EA/PA, I guess I'm thinking that if she fesses up, it would be an act of trust on her part to maintain the secret between us.
Quote:
Trust me, you don't want to do this

I know it sounds it, but I'm not disagreeing with you!
I'm REALLY trying to work this through.
I need help getting convinced that it would be a good idea to just ignore the whole EA/PA.
I need help on this because it SEEMS like I might be able to short-circuit her fantasy--and maybe the EA/PA--while still working on my detaching...

Man, this is wringing my soul.
Hey

Just seen your reply and I'll try & answer a couple of things from your post.

That's one of the things I need help to understand. What's good about it?
I think there's definitely a shame factor--she's been very explicit about not letting ANY of our friends know about this. Which is why, separately, I'm motivated to let the cat out of the bag to the right person to let her get pressure from someone outside the M.


OK, firstly what's good about this situation is that your W recognizes that this is wrong & why she has hidden this. It might not seem like she is thinking of you, but if her actions became common knowledge, this would hurt your pride even further & damage your ego.

Secondly wanting to put pressure on your W, will not achieve anything except rash decisions on her part. You need to give her space to work out what she wants and stop trying to force something that isn't what she wants right now. Imagine this woman wasn't your W, and you were trying to get her to go out with you, do you think what you are doing right now would work? No, of course it wouldn't, plus you are old news to her right now & she thinks that you are the sole reason for her unhappiness.

What you need to do, is exactly what people are telling you to do, detach. Work on yourself, be happy and live your life to the full. She will notice, even if she doesn't say anything. Every positive 180 you can acheive, consistantly will give her reason to doubt herself. You need to make sure that you stop pressuring your W and make the interactions and time you spend together more relaxed, without any expectations of getting anything in return. You have to do all the leg work right now, and every day you need to get up & dust yourself off & keep up your changes.

About bringing up the EA/PA it's totally up to you, but if you are convinced it is over, what good of it will come from that situation. Peace of mind for yourself? There are other ways you can get passed all of this.

I think you need to get a list of mini goals, post them here & work on them & monitor your progress.

You have to start making positive changes now & stop pressuring or pursuing your wife. You need to buy time right now , space = time , pressure = get me out of here.

Don't be to down on yourself we are all going through something similar on here, you have to do this for yourself and on your own, but people on here will help you along the way.

Take care

Bill
Posted By: HollyAnn Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/15/12 04:51 PM
Originally Posted By: ouroboros
Originally Posted By: breakdownbill
Sounds exactly how it unravelled for me too, I was told there was noone else & that it was all my fault & that she had felt unhappy for ages.
You can check out my 1st thread as to how I handled that conversation - it was far from gentle - a lot of hurt - pain & tears.
Oh man, I read your story and I empathize--this really is the club none wants to join.
Quote:
Look your W is hiding it from you because she recognises that it is wrong (believe it or not that's a relatively good thing in this scenario),
That's one of the things I need help to understand. What's good about it?
I think there's definitely a shame factor--she's been very explicit about not letting ANY of our friends know about this. Which is why, separately, I'm motivated to let the cat out of the bag to the right person to let her get pressure from someone outside the M.
Quote:
the reaction you don't want to get, but might is if she knows you know about it, she says she doesn't care & that she will carry on seeing them whatever you think. Prepare yourself for the worst case scenario in these conversations.
The thing that's different here for me-and what I'm trying to work through-is that I'm 99% sure that the OP dumped/spurned her.
Quote:
Seriously, why do you want to bring it up in MC? Would you want to be confronted on something like this in that environment? I know I wouldn't - if you want to save your M - you have to show your W that you will protect your R no matter how fragile it is now & that her feelings and happiness is important to you. Bringing this up in MC, does neither of these things & will make you look weak to your W.
That's exactly my frustration--I do want to show her I'll protect our R--and her--to the ends of the earth. If I didnt think that OP dumped her, I don't think I'd be going down this road.

The reason for doing this in MC--and importantly, to do it in a way that was somehow indirect--is because it's the only time she's really been honest with me in about a year. It's a safe environment. We have no discussions about M or D outside of MC at this point, in part because of the DBing, but also I think because of her secrecy.

I definitely don't think it would be productive to just blurt out an accusation. So by indirect, I could ask in MC about getting a better understanding of "why now/what changed/what pushed you over the edge"? The closest thing she's given me as a reason for the D, "before one of us has an EA/PA."

I think that's W's code for "I'm having a EA/PA and I'll be ashamed if the kids and my friends find out that it was my cheating that caused our D". If the OP dumped her, and noone knows about her EA/PA, I guess I'm thinking that if she fesses up, it would be an act of trust on her part to maintain the secret between us.
Quote:
Trust me, you don't want to do this

I know it sounds it, but I'm not disagreeing with you!
I'm REALLY trying to work this through.
I need help getting convinced that it would be a good idea to just ignore the whole EA/PA.
I need help on this because it SEEMS like I might be able to short-circuit her fantasy--and maybe the EA/PA--while still working on my detaching...

Man, this is wringing my soul.


I know. So many of us have been there.
Detach, drop the rope, let her flail and feel consequences.
Do not get into The Friend Zone with her. You are her HUSBAND, not her GIRLFRIEND. Do not take the WAW script and/or spew to heart. Water off a duck's back.
I don't see anything "wrong" with bringing up possible infidelity in MC; as long as you do it in such a way as stating a boundary: "I'm just not the type of man who would ever share his W with another man..."
You can state that as a boundary without confrontation. It is a fact, right? Just state your fact and shut up. No lectures, no expanding. Short, declarative statements come across as strengths.
She wants out? Show her the door and wish her well. Do not try to cling; it is weak, and we like strong men. We have no respect for neediness.
Don't beg her to stay, let her feel the loss of you by her own hand.
Hang in there.
Posted By: HollyAnn Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/15/12 04:58 PM
Oh, and do not fear her wrath. She will get mad when things don't go her way. Tough! "Sorry you feel that way." Or, "Wow, that must be upsetting for you."
Believe it or not, "mad" is "good."
Do not get sucked in when she appears to be "happy" or "nice" to you. This is an indicator that she is getting her way with OM, plans for her "wonderful" new single life, whatever.
If she does try to suck you back in, "I don't know how I feel about this. I have a lot of thinking to do and decisions to make."
Short, declarative statements. Less is more.
And NEVER tip your hand to her. WAS's are very selfish, cruel, and manipulative.
Water off a duck's back.
You are in control of YOU. Not every shot will be called by her.
Believe it!
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/17/12 04:03 AM
Thanks to you all for the replies--I'm getting there, albeit slowly.

Originally Posted By: breakdownbill
OK, firstly what's good about this situation is that your W recognizes that this is wrong & why she has hidden this. It might not seem like she is thinking of you, but if her actions became common knowledge, this would hurt your pride even further & damage your ego.

It sounds like you're talking about if her friends found out, right?
As opposed to confessing to me?
FWIW, if her friends found out about her having an affair and wanting a divorce THEY'D probably disown her. They wouldn't think twice about my role in it.
I guess I'm still not understanding you--I am stuck thinking she's protecting her own arse, not mine.

I really thought a lot about your question re: what do I want out of confronting her. I realized it comes down to the obvious fact that I have exactly zero trust in her right now b/c of the bomb. And, I don't know how to go about rebuilding--even DBing--without being able to have some little sliver of trust moving in the right direction.

So, when W is boldfaced lying about having an EA or PA (I have a freaking love letter she wrote for godssake), I get stuck in this cycle of hurt/anger about her continued deceit.

And it's exactly that sort of only-in-her-own-brain deceit that's a damaging pattern in our relationship, but in a weird way--for example, she'll spend days/weeks/months consulting with other people about a serious issue before talking to me. So, she'll be acting way, way off for that time before it. And I'll ask what's going on/what's wrong. We'll fight. She'll get exasperated and just emotionlessly state her decision about the thing. I've realized that I'm not the one she will confide in first for anything.
Like the 3 weeks she knew she was pregnant and wanting an abortion.
Like the 3 months of deceit before the bomb.

So, why do I want to call her out about the EA/PA? To get some honesty for a change before she walks ALL the way out. It's like she's being honest finally about everything else but this.

But you're right. Confronting her runs the risk of a knee-jerk reaction. Or making me look weak and unattractive.

Quote:
What you need to do, is exactly what people are telling you to do, detach. Work on yourself, be happy and live your life to the full. She will notice, even if she doesn't say anything. Every positive 180 you can acheive, consistantly will give her reason to doubt herself.


Definitely, and this is happening and I'm seeing positive effects.
I'm GALing and 180ing like crazy and she's completely struck by my enjoying (at least most parts) my life for a change.

I'm really frigging stuck on this confrontation.

Quote:
About bringing up the EA/PA it's totally up to you, but if you are convinced it is over, what good of it will come from that situation. Peace of mind for yourself? There are other ways you can get passed all of this.


Hmm--do you think calling out your W, even if you have clear evidence of EA/PA, is pursing? How can I get past not just having fear/anxiety, but knowing for a fact something hidden is/was going on? How can I rebuild my own sense of trusting her?
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/17/12 04:29 AM
Originally Posted By: HollyAnn
I don't see anything "wrong" with bringing up possible infidelity in MC; as long as you do it in such a way as stating a boundary: "I'm just not the type of man who would ever share his W with another man..."
You can state that as a boundary without confrontation. It is a fact, right? Just state your fact and shut up. No lectures, no expanding. Short, declarative statements come across as strengths.

Well, as it turns out, MC today was...eventful.
Started talking with the C about my getting my act together, GAL, and fighting back depression--getting back into my own skin. Being honest with myself and living up to my personal obligations. Realizing that no one in this world can take care of you (although def they can support).
And--that FINALLY for the past few days I'm genuinely feeling happy for a change.

So the MC asks W about my feeling happy, and W tells her how she's bewildered about the whole thing. Starts breaking down and talking in some contradictions, but then goes on to say that one reason for the bomb was to free me to make me happy--that if it took my getting involved with some imagined OW, she'd be all for it.

This gave me great pause. Most women I know would rather have their arms cut off than have their husband PA. When the MC asked me what I thought about it, I told her I think W isn't talking about me. I think she's talking about herself, that she wants to be happy by freeing me to pave the way for OP.

The MC jumped on this and directly asked W if this is true, is there a PA. W denied it flatly and in great detail.

Rather foolishly, I then was talking about my hurt and fear--and said, well look, I don't know what to expect from you anymore. And, I wouldn't be surprised you'd have an affair given how insanely depressed and neglectful I've been. But, if you look at the stupid websites for the top 10 signs for a cheating W, damn if W isn't doing ALL of them.

She broke down completely, but also completely denied that she was trying to pave the way for OM or having an PA.

So, I managed to lose my cool severely. And, like bill suggested, I think it didn't help much, but she also didn't seem to make rash decisions. Instead, now I think she's getting afraid of the possibility of MY making a rash decision and leaving her.
Quote:
She wants out? Show her the door and wish her well. Do not try to cling; it is weak, and we like strong men. We have no respect for neediness.
Don't beg her to stay, let her feel the loss of you by her own hand.
Hang in there.


I talked a lot about boundaries in MC, mostly due to your reply.
Honest and clear boundaries--like I wouldn't tolerate her being with OM.
I talked about he boundaries she decided to set all on her own by dropping the bomb, moving into another room in the house, etc.
And I talked about the fact that the boundaries she's setting are damn confusing.
I told W, if she wants out of the M, move out of the house.

She backtracked, talking about the fact that she's in MC to stay, that she's committed to figuring out how we move forward (whether we D or not).
And, she even told the MC that she'd be very willing to figure out how to reconcile if I was able to keep being myself as I am now.

It sounds great, right?

Unfortunately, I left MC completely jaded.
I soft balled several opportunities for her to admit her affair, or even a desire for one...nothing.
I realized walking out of there that for the moment I've lost all respect for W--I don't have any respect for liars or thieves...why would I respect her now.

I'm completely pissed off and more than a little disgusted.
By far, this is the most angry I've been since the bomb.
I keep having strings of nasty curses and slanders go through my head about her.
I couldn't even stand to be in the same house with her tonight.
Told W I was going to go hang out with people tonight, go see a movie or watch the game (very unlike me to do this by myself and no one was around tonight).
Originally Posted By: ouroboros


It sounds like you're talking about if her friends found out, right?
As opposed to confessing to me?
FWIW, if her friends found out about her having an affair and wanting a divorce THEY'D probably disown her. They wouldn't think twice about my role in it.
I guess I'm still not understanding you--I am stuck thinking she's protecting her own arse, not mine.

I just meant anyone in your life that knows you. To a large extent she is, but you are married to her and whatever people say about your W - will reflect on you and your R. The only thing you have to gain by this becoming public knowledge right now is other people's sympathy. Is that what you want, for people to feel sorry for you? If you want to repair your M someday, hanging your W out to dry & take all the stigma of cheating is not something I could recommend. I know you feel like lashing out in some way, but this would hurt both of you & the added pressure of what your friends, family and community think of you and your M, is not healthy or something you would want. So do something else to vent your anger constructively, you know exercise or hit a punchbag.




I really thought a lot about your question re: what do I want out of confronting her. I realized it comes down to the obvious fact that I have exactly zero trust in her right now b/c of the bomb. And, I don't know how to go about rebuilding--even DBing--without being able to have some little sliver of trust moving in the right direction.

First of all your wife has broken your trust & betrayed you. This trust was built up over many years & it will have to be earned by your W. I don't trust half the things my W says to me now, because of the same thing - betrayal & that she hasn't done anything to win my trust back.
The DB'g is for YOU!! For YOU to get your life back on track,find out what makes you happy & live life in the moment, to start to reflect on what you want & to become a person who understands about relationships, so whoever your next relationship is with is different (even if it is with your W).




So, when W is boldfaced lying about having an EA or PA (I have a freaking love letter she wrote for godssake), I get stuck in this cycle of hurt/anger about her continued deceit.

You know your trust has been betrayed - a confession or the details will not change anything for you or your W.

And it's exactly that sort of only-in-her-own-brain deceit that's a damaging pattern in our relationship, but in a weird way--for example, she'll spend days/weeks/months consulting with other people about a serious issue before talking to me. So, she'll be acting way, way off for that time before it. And I'll ask what's going on/what's wrong. We'll fight. She'll get exasperated and just emotionlessly state her decision about the thing. I've realized that I'm not the one she will confide in first for anything.
Like the 3 weeks she knew she was pregnant and wanting an abortion.
Like the 3 months of deceit before the bomb.

Your W will not confide in you, because the things she is doing in her head are because of you. This is how she is justifying her actions & other people outside of your M are used to validate her biased versions of her issues. This is just human nature, if someone in work does your head in about something, you normally confide in someone else to get another opinion on the situation first, before acting on anything. Don't beat yourself up about it, unfortunately there are loads of people out there who will give our WAS's bad advice and help validate the most selfish of actions.


Hmm--do you think calling out your W, even if you have clear evidence of EA/PA, is pursing? How can I get past not just having fear/anxiety, but knowing for a fact something hidden is/was going on? How can I rebuild my own sense of trusting her?

While you have these fears and anxiety, you will not be able to move on in your own personal journey. Noone wants to be around someone who is anxious and fearful, the opposite to this is confident and strong - which is more attractive?

Like I said you won't get over the trust issues in a hurry, stop trying to fix your situation in double quick time. Have a plan, take it step by step, keep up your GAL activities & add to them.

When the penny drops for you, you'll start to understand all of this - like I said it took me more than a month for it to happen to me. You have to come to some realisations for yourself.



Bill
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/17/12 01:53 PM
I have started reading "I Don't Want to Talk About It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression" by Terrence Real.

I'm 50 pages into the book. I am blown away.
It's giving me a much better handle on WAW and my role in it.

If you're a man dealing with depression/abandonment, go read it.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/18/12 02:02 PM
Originally Posted By: breakdownbill
I just meant anyone in your life that knows you. To a large extent she is, but you are married to her and whatever people say about your W - will reflect on you and your R. The only thing you have to gain by this becoming public knowledge right now is other people's sympathy. Is that what you want, for people to feel sorry for you?

Ah no, that's not my goal at all. The only reason I'd have for 'letting the cat out of the bag' would be to have one or two specific friends confront W so that she'd be in a place to confess to me.
And, your point is well made--even if it worked the way I imagine, at the very least it comes with other negative consequences.

Quote:
If you want to repair your M someday, hanging your W out to dry & take all the stigma of cheating is not something I could recommend.

Absolutely. If it came across (intentionally or not) as me trying to hurt her by exposing this to people, it's a huge slap in her face.
But, are you telling me that her friends would just sympathize with her and it would make the stigma part of this feel more bearable for W? I think this is the central thing about which I'm confused--it sort of seems to me that it would be more pressure and stigma if it was exposed to other people. Maybe not.

Quote:
I know you feel like lashing out in some way, but this would hurt both of you & the added pressure of what your friends, family and community think of you and your M, is not healthy or something you would want. So do something else to vent your anger constructively, you know exercise or hit a punchbag.

Yeah there's plenty of ways this makes me angry. And confused, hurt, betrayed, anxious, abandoned, remorseful. And, on good days--it makes me hopeful.
But I'm working those constructively as you recommend. Venting here is definitely one of them. And working out 3-4 times week. And fishing. And journaling. And reading (DB and others). And a DB coach. And IC. And cooking.

Maybe in the back of my mind there's some sort of punishment I want to give W for all this. But, primarily that's NOT my goal. Hell, I know W well enough that this secrecy and deceit are gnawing away at her soul. Here's what I see:

Admission: I think this is the best thing. All along I've been trying to find out how I can get her to admit EA/PA to me. I tried in MC, but W didn't take the bait. If she was in a place to admit this to me and to be honest, I think it would open a positive flood that could move us both forward substantially. Also, I could stop being distracted from DBing--this isn't the time to mess up my detaching.

Ignoring: Lets her continue with her fantasy, and possibly rekindle the EA/PA. I'm sure that it light a fire in her, that the excitement and thrill of it all were a major motivation pushing it so quickly to the bomb. At some point, it has to come out and it has to be clear this is completely out-of-bounds for me. Also, I don't think W has a concept of EA. I'm almost positive the bomb came before she made motions to make it a PA. So, if it wasn't a PA, then to W I'll wager it wasn't cheating. Even if it's ended (for now), I can't figure out if letting this stay this way is a good idea. It's completely possible that she's feeding off of a secret EA in a way that she thinks I'll leave her if I find out about it. That seems to be a good thing if it's happening.

Confronting: It is lesser option. I'm taking the initiative, not W, so the timing will be off for her. Also, possibility of rash decisions on her part. But, on a different level, it's me acting in a completely appropriate way. Under any other circumstance, I'd have called her out on this nearly immediately like any other good H. But, if she can't handle that shame or feels like I'm angry, it'll just make things worse at least in the short term.

Quote:
[...] When the penny drops for you, you'll start to understand all of this - like I said it took me more than a month for it to happen to me. You have to come to some realisations for yourself.


Anybody got a penny I can borrow? wink
In all seriousness, helping me understand this is a really important thing for me right now--so thanks.
And please bear with me if I'm asking the same thing 4 times in different ways.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/18/12 02:12 PM
Originally Posted By: breakdownbill
You know your trust has been betrayed - a confession or the details will not change anything for you or your W.

Here's where I really need LOTS of help, experience, and opinions.

I have clear evidence of at least an EA, maybe a PA.
W denied it when I asked during the bomb.
W denied it again when the MC asked her directly.
I also have evidence that the OP, at some point recently, likely broke it off.

I would have thought that having her admit the EA/PA would clear the air, allow for an honest discussion, and move us forward.

I would have thought confronting her on it would do the same thing, but with more risk because it would be more emotionally charged for both of us. If I did confront, I think doing it in MC would be safest but that's 2 weeks out.

Ignoring it completely seems to run the risk of me looking "weak" to her as well as grinding down my ability to DB. I need to be able to keep DBg. But, Bill makes a really strong point that she might be protecting me or our M on some level by hiding this, and that knowing the details will end up not mattering anyway.

I think Bill is right, but I am feeling dishonest not revealing what I know. And it's killing me.

Can you share your story, especially if you had evidence of your WAS EA/PA that you found post-bomb, and what you did about it? Did they admit? Did you confront? Ignore? Ignore for now? How did it go?
Posted By: Redo Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/18/12 07:32 PM
Ourobros : Just a suggestion. Perhaps i have learnt this from the past 1 year i spent in hell.

First off, i have to admit my situation was not as bad as yours. There was no OM or any crazy stuff. But there was a lot of 're-writing history'. I guess each one has their own hell.

In the beginning i used to be so caught up in the whole 'how can she do this. Why is she denying that etc'. I was tormented and angry. If there was one thing i learnt on how to get out of that hell, it was to let them all go. I know, hard to do. But it is only when you can let go of the fact that she is lying to you and not accepting that there is an EA/PA is when you can move out of that mad-drama and feel liberated. But it is your path and accept that it will take time. But i can promise you that the day these things stop bothering you, you will feel much better. You will feel that you can take on anything. That strength of conviction about yourself brings inner strength.

If you are following the mass murderer 'Brervik' case in Norway, one of the victim's mom was asked as to why she was not angry. Apparently she replied "I'll never give him the gift of my anger".

Good luck!
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/18/12 11:47 PM
When you live with someone who's lying/deceiving/hiding something from you, yet you know the truth, you learn a lot about their tells.

I would wipe the floor with W if we were to play poker. smile
Hi Ourboros

I think the key to all these trust issues, is what a lot of the more experienced Vets on here say, 'Don't believe half of what they say or what they do'.

The reason you can't find a rationale within yourself to trust your W, is because no matter what angle you look at it.. it's still broken.

I'm in the same boat - living with someone who has deceived me for a very long time, has confessed most of whatever she's done & has done very little if anything to regain my trust.

Until things change I won't trust my W and may never be able to trust her again (trust is earned and only YOU know if you trust someone- whoever they are).

Even if your W does confess to some things, trust me you'll always think they are holding back more information (they usually are). When someone lives a lie, they get used to doing it & start being their own cr*p to be the truth, because their take on things is always justified by something the LBS has either done or failed to do.

You are struggling with this & it's stopping you from moving forward at the moment.

Be honest with yourself & find out if this is a deal breaker for you & think about what you want from a relationship.

If it's not a deal breaker, you've got to find a way to compartmentalize this issue & crack on with the rest of your 180's & self improvements.

In the same cr*ppy boat & know exactly how you feel.

Bill
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/19/12 11:51 AM
Originally Posted By: breakdownbill
The reason you can't find a rationale within yourself to trust your W, is because no matter what angle you look at it.. it's still broken.
I guess I was hoping that if she confessed to me on her own, it might restore some of my trust in her. But the more I think about it, I'm guessing that most of the second-guessing and mistrust I feel won't change if she tells me any details. There will need to be a time for that, but maybe not right now.

Quote:
I'm in the same boat - living with someone who has deceived me for a very long time, has confessed most of whatever she's done & has done very little if anything to regain my trust.

Until things change I won't trust my W and may never be able to trust her again (trust is earned and only YOU know if you trust someone- whoever they are).
I'm sorry to hear that, man--obviously I can relate. It's easy with these deep emotions for me to be terribly selfish here and not remember that plenty of other people are also grasping at straws of anguish.

Quote:
You are struggling with this & it's stopping you from moving forward at the moment.
It's a serious block for me. I'm doing my damnedest to let it go.

Quote:
Be honest with yourself & find out if this is a deal breaker for you & think about what you want from a relationship.
This is a really good point. If she was having an EA, it's not a deal breaker. If she had a 1-2 time PA, it's probably not a deal breaker. A longer PA I'd have to think about.

If there was more than one OM or if I find out she got pregnant last year from someone else, I don't think I could handle that one.

Quote:
If it's not a deal breaker, you've got to find a way to compartmentalize this issue & crack on with the rest of your 180's & self improvements.

Yeah, so I just realized that's exactly my internal conflict. I don't know the extent of the EA/PA, so I don't know if it is a deal breaker for me. That explains why I've been having a really hard time putting this on the shelf for now.

Quote:
In the same cr*ppy boat & know exactly how you feel.


Damn. Life is never fulfilling when you're living inside a soap opera like we all are.

This whole forum is such a help to me getting my head and heart straightened out.
Bill--I gotta tell you how you in particular are helping me through this week...thanks.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/19/12 05:32 PM
"the more experienced Vets on here say, 'Don't believe half of what they say or what they do'."

That's wrong. The actual phrase is...

"Believe none of what they say and only half of what they do."

It's in DR.
Sorry for mis-quoting MWD, thanks for the correction Bond.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/20/12 12:57 PM
Sometimes, a "one day at a time" approach actually works for me.

Tonight, instead of anxiety and insomnia, I found a good emotional space right before I went to sleep.

I realized, "Just for today I'm sure there was no OP, just me."

It's not exactly detaching, but it was enough to put my anxiety in a little box, then put it on a shelf. It makes it so I can be able to get back to detaching.

And today, is a better day.
Originally Posted By: ouroboros
Sometimes, a "one day at a time" approach actually works for me.

I think that this is the only approach that works for most of us.

Tonight, instead of anxiety and insomnia, I found a good emotional space right before I went to sleep.

Hey this is great progress, whatever you did to feel in that space keep doing it!!

I realized, "Just for today I'm sure there was no OP, just me."

That's a really positive take & mature way of dealing with this situation - I can really relate to what you said there - Thanks

It's not exactly detaching, but it was enough to put my anxiety in a little box, then put it on a shelf. It makes it so I can be able to get back to detaching.

And today, is a better day.


Well done Ourboros, you aren't trying to break the mould, you are taking some realy positive baby steps & you feel better already. Keep this up, you're doing great!!


Bill
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/21/12 12:15 PM
Well despite my best efforts, the universe is unfolding as it should.

Had a good day hanging out with W and the kids, museums and playgrounds and such.

Late in the afternoon, W asks me to use my phone to look up something on the web since her's is out of battery. I say sure, clear out all my open pages, clear the cache, and hand it to her since she's sitting right next to me.

She immediately opens up a browser and begins a search. Silly me, although I cleared the URL history, I didn't clear the search history.

The first two searches she sees pop up are "infidelity support" and "i found a love letter". She's shocked and asks me what does that mean? Did I write a letter? Did I find one?

I tell her, honestly, those were topics I looked up after our last CC session when I talked about all the behaviors that make it look to me like she's EA/PA (and which she denied).

She looks at me and tells me straight up, "I'm not cheating on you."
I said, "Well, thank you for telling me that. But I wasn't asking."
I decide I'm not going to confront her then--if I choose to do so, it'll be on my terms when I'm ready.

She's a little taken back and I'm feeling anxious. Huge change in W's attitude tonight.

I go to bed alone, she stays up.
Five minutes later, I hear a massive shuffling of papers downstairs.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/21/12 02:37 PM
The kids wake me up early this morning, W is still sleeping.
While making coffee, I can plainly see the folded love notes to OM are still in her school bag.

On her way to her breakfast meeting she has every Sat. morning, she casually takes the bag with her as if it was her purse. As if I wouldn't notice.

I'm not sure why I expected anything different from W other than continued secrecy, deceit, and anguish after she saw the search history for 'i found a love letter'. Wishful thinking on my part.

Very not detached this morning.
Massive and uncentered anxiety about this. (I felt very good for about 2 days, but since she saw the search history...wham.)
I feel oddly guilty, like *I'm* the one hiding something.

Disappointed.
I don't feel very angry at all.
I feel this strange empathy for what she must be going through and it makes me feel sad.
And I'll be spending the day again with W and the kids.

The universe continues to unfold as it should, but unfortunately it feels like it's unfolding in my gut.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/23/12 08:03 PM
A day of deep feelings of betrayal, loss.
Maybe it's the rain.
Posted By: ouroboros Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/27/12 01:43 PM
I can't believe that so many people have gone through this experience.
It's just humbling.

I've had a great couple of days.
And for no specific reason, I find I'm having such a hard time detaching today.
I'd really appreciate any advice on what to do when you have a really "sticky" day.
Posted By: AprilT Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb - 04/27/12 01:47 PM
Surround yourself with friends and go out. Sometimes I go to bed early, or if its real bad, I write in my journal all the things I want to be able to say but never will. It's very helpful!
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