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Posted By: Navyguy The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/19/12 04:24 PM
"My son, you've seen the temporary fire and the eternal fire; you have reached the place past which my powers cannot see. I've brought you here through intellect and art; from now on, let your pleasure be your guide; you're past the steep and past the narrow paths. Look at the sun that shines upon your brow; look at the grasses, flowers, and the shrubs born here, spontaneously, of the earth. Among them, you can rest or walk until the coming of the glad and lovely eyes-those eyes that, weeping, sent me to your side. Await no further word or sign from me: your will is free, erect, and whole-to act against that will would be to err: therefore I crown and miter you over yourself."

I was going to title this thread "Epilogue" or something along those lines, but then I saw Denver getting bunch of crap for saying his new thread was his last, so I came up with this instead. I find it to be quite fitting.

Here are my previous threads:

#1: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2122500&page=1

#2: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2132672&page=1

#3: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2138681&page=1

#4: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2151941&page=1

#5 http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2173637&page=1

Just like Denver, I am at the point where I am tuckered out. Still stuck in limbo, but too worn out to be upset anymore.

Working on my update now. I will have it up by the end of the day.
Posted By: Redo Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/19/12 08:22 PM
Navy:

I have been following your sitch right from the beginning. I sincerely hope that you find peace and happiness in however you want the direction of the your life story to go.
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/20/12 02:33 AM
Originally Posted By: Navyguy
"My son, you've seen the temporary fire and the eternal fire; you have reached the place past which my powers cannot see. I've brought you here through intellect and art; from now on, let your pleasure be your guide; you're past the steep and past the narrow paths. Look at the sun that shines upon your brow; look at the grasses, flowers, and the shrubs born here, spontaneously, of the earth. Among them, you can rest or walk until the coming of the glad and lovely eyes-those eyes that, weeping, sent me to your side. Await no further word or sign from me: your will is free, erect, and whole-to act against that will would be to err: therefore I crown and miter you over yourself."

I was going to title this thread "Epilogue" or something along those lines, but then I saw Denver getting bunch of crap for saying his new thread was his last, so I came up with this instead. I find it to be quite fitting.

Here are my previous threads:

#1: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2122500&page=1

#2: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2132672&page=1

#3: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2138681&page=1

#4: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2151941&page=1

#5 http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2173637&page=1

Just like Denver, I am at the point where I am tuckered out. Still stuck in limbo, but too worn out to be upset anymore.

Working on my update now. I will have it up by the end of the day.


Cool Navy. Nice to hear from you.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/20/12 03:20 AM
for that, navy... let me think about it, i'll find something to nail you with a 2x4 about... lol...

hey, where's that update...? day's almost over...!!!

smile
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/20/12 04:50 PM
Hey everyone. Here goes the long-overdue update.

At the end of my previous thread, I was working on putting my foot down with regards to being blamed for my W’s misery and her treatment of me. I’ve had some successes and some setbacks as a result of this. I can’t say that the setbacks are really unexpected, but they still hurt. W still blames me for her lot in life, and anytime I don’t put up with that, she gets PO’d.

My last real update was 4 weeks ago. (Yikes!) For most of that time, things have been fairly calm, but that is probably largely a result of me “sucking it up”. W had not been outwardly hostile toward me, but she is definitely going out of her way to make sure she’s not giving me any signs that she is interested in saving our M.

As before, I am stuck in limbo…and I am now convinced that for better or worse, only I can change this situation. Like 25 said in my previous thread…it’s been 3 years and W would have budged by now if she was going to at all.

Anyways….on to the latest and greatest:

I had previously mentioned that W and I were going to be attending a Navy Ball.

A couple weeks prior to the ball, I got a text from W’s “BFF” in Hawaii, saying W’s “BFF” in Ohio wants to text me with a good idea how to surprise W so she gave her my number. The next day I get a message from Ohio BFF. Her idea to surprise W was to go to the Ball with W since Hawaii BFF told her that I couldn’t go. Ohio BFF said it was Hawaii BFF’s idea and that Hawaii BFF said W was having a hard time. Then the message went on to tell me how bad her life has been since her D.

I have no idea where Hawaii BFF got the idea that I wasn’t going….I wasn’t sure if this was some underhanded way of them telling me W didn’t want me to go to the ball with her or something…so I responded nicely that I was planning to go to the ball and that I’m sure we can figure out another time for W and her to get together sometime soon.

Well, fast forward a couple weeks. We did go to the ball. It was last Saturday, the 17th – exactly one year after W came back from Colorado. W was looking forward to the ball…and had spent a good amount of time picking out a dress, getting her hair and nails done, etc.

So, we got ready on Saturday and headed out. We had plans to carpool with our friends that live nearby. These friends recently had a baby and I think it has definitely put some stress on their M. More on that later.

The ball was really nice and a good time. W and I both had plenty of the Bacchus, and we were sitting with a good group of friends. During dinner, W got a text on her phone from Ohio BFF, asking if she could come up to visit next weekend. W asked me if that was ok and I told her that I don’t see why that wouldn’t work. When W asked, she was holding up her phone where I could see the texts. The text from Ohio BFF prior to the invite said “Have fun and make the best of it”. I am just assuming here, but I’m pretty sure there’s probably a previous text from W that says something along the lines of “this is gonna suck having to go to the ball with H”. I didn’t want to ruin the night for myself, so I didn’t say anything.

So…given the whole “Navyguy isn’t going to the ball” thing and the text at the ball, I’m fairly certain that despite both Ohio and Hawaii BFF’s telling me recently how great I am and that they’re trying to help, they’re (intentionally or not, I’m not sure) really just adding fuel to the fire. It’s funny…I don’t have an OM in my situation, but the similarities between what I have read about EA’s and my sitch are kind of scary. The BFF’s were both “there for W” in her time of need, and she has basically developed an EA with them as a result of that. This comes up again later in the night…

After dinner and the formalities, they had dancing. W and I danced together for awhile…nothing slow or intimate, but just some fun stuff. We hung out there until about 11:30, and had a good time.

Now for the real fun….

We hopped in the car with the couple we rode with and who recently had a baby. They have what seems to me to be a not-so-healthy marriage, but they seem to be making it work…and who am I to judge anyways? The baby has stressed things more though. The W has been having some issues with H’s level of involvement with the baby, and has been venting to my W about it. The other W said she was hungry and wanted to stop at Taco Bell.

Her H said he wanted to get a Shamrock shake at McDonalds. So they went back and forth for a bit, and then my W chimes in that she wants a Shamrock shake too. Apparently she did so because she knows how stubborn the other H is and wanted him to get his way because she knew he wouldn’t give up, and had enough liquid courage in her to decide that she needed to get in the middle of it. I’m just sitting there in awkward silence the whole time. So we end up going to McDonalds, and other W is obviously pissed. Then they drop us off at home.

We go in, relieve the babysitter, and W seems to be in a decent mood. I put D6 in bed and then sat down with W to eat our food. I’m not sure who made the first comment, but we got to talking about our friends and the ride home. This is when W told me why she said she wanted the shamrock shake. I was surprised to hear that from her…I would think she would have sided with the other W and gone for the taco bell, but no. I didn’t say that to her though…I was mostly just listening.

Then W decides to say “you realize they’re going through the early stages of what we’ve been going through”. Ok fine…I understand that the other W is building resentment now, just like my W was when our D was born. But I see some huge differences between how other H and I. I don’t want to get into specifics since he is my friend, but some of the things I have heard he’s done and said really make me cringe.

So I respond to W: “I agree…but I don’t think that I ever treated you the way he treats his W. I was clueless and selfish at times, and at times was a far from perfect husband, but I don’t think I deserve to be lumped in with other H”.

And W exploded. All the same things we’ve gone over hundreds of times, but this was certainly the most she’s ever yelled…she was really screaming at me. “You mistreated me for 6 years. You didn’t listen when I told you how unhappy I was. You weren’t there for me and D when she was born. You are such a selfish person. You don’t understand what I went through. You obviously still don’t get it. You’re pushing me, forcing me to share the bed with you, I only came back because you guilted me into it, Etc. etc.”

I told W: “I understand you were unhappy, and I understand why. And as soon as I understood how unhappy you were (which I acknowledge was much later than it should have been) I did 4 things: figured out what I was doing wrong, stop doing it, own it and apologize for it, and learn how to start doing things right”.

W then told me I was changing my story and called me I liar. I told her I wasn’t and repeated the 4 things and that I know I have done them and will continue to learn how to be a better husband for the rest of my life.

Then W said she could never talk to me about anything and that is why she is so close to the BFFs. That every time they had a “girls night” it was so she could get away from being miserable with me.

W then brought up something I had told her about my IC sessions in a previous “talk”. I previously told W that both ICs (who I saw weekly for 4 months each) left with no understanding of why she refuses to work on our M. And I told them everything…and even defended her to them. Apparently W took this as me throwing her under the bus and blaming everything on her and then getting my IC’s to agree with me.

At this point W was screaming so loudly that I got up to leave…I couldn’t take being yelled at anymore. I told her I didn’t want to have this discussion tonight in the first place. But she kept going, and I got sucked back in, so I sat back down.

I don’t remember everything…but I do remember W said some pretty terrible things to me…most of which revolved around her wanting me to just take care of the kids and leave her alone. I stayed calm through the entire thing. I didn’t yell once. I didn’t attack her once. But I did defend myself the best I could. It is pretty hard though when she hates what I said before I even said it.

Eventually she got up to go to the bathroom. I just sat there on the floor for awhile. She came back out and had calmed down a bit. I told her: “I don’t want you to be miserable. And I don’t want to be miserable. I’m not forcing you to do anything here. I am doing everything I can to make your life better, yet it seems that I am also the reason you are miserable. I don’t understand why and I don’t know what to do about it. I don’t want to give up…but I also don’t want you to be miserable anymore.”

We ended it there, and she went to get ready for bed. I went into our room and laid down for a second, then decided I didn’t want to sleep in the same bed as her. I went and slept (well, mostly just laid there awake) downstairs.

D6 came down in the morning to play Wii. Shortly after, W came downstairs. I looked at W…and the first thing she said was “sorry about last night”. I said “I’m sorry too”.

I have no idea exactly what she was apologizing for. Was it just for screaming at me? Does she feel bad about some of the things she said? Or did she actually realize she’s been so incredibly unforgiving? Or was she worried she had pushed me to the breaking point to where I was about to throw in the towel? I don’t know...I don't know what I was apologizing for either. I was probably still apologzing for my wrongs in the past.

Things have gone back to the old status quo. W spent all day in bed on Sunday because she hurt her neck. The kids and I took care of her. Yesterday she started a new round of classes for school…so she’s back to burying herself in schoolwork from the time I get home until bed.

(Sigh)

I know what I have to do. I have been through hell and purgatory. The difficult and painful part of this journey is over. It is time I take crown and miter over myself.

Saying that and doing it are certainly two different things, but I know that moment is coming soon.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/20/12 05:24 PM
Only observation about the ball was the "after" events where you said you "mostly" listened... as she had indicated to you (or you observed) it was probably the liquid courage that caused her to interfere with the dynamic of your friends and likely the reason for her exploding when you offered that you didn't quite behave the way friend H is...

On the BFFs, who knows... maybe they ARE trying to help... even though what you see might appear to be unhelpful...

I'm sure this is not helpful and I'm sure you know, but there appears to still be a lot of mind reading going on by you. I admit I've caught myself doing that, but it is becoming quite rare, now... I mostly just observe now... watch for subtle changes but not guessing what meaning any changes might have...

Originally Posted By: Navyguy
As before, I am stuck in limbo…and I am now convinced that for better or worse, only I can change this situation. Like 25 said in my previous thread…it’s been 3 years and W would have budged by now if she was going to at all.


I'm coming up on two years from the date that I can firmly say was the beginning of the end, although I could certainly say that I saw a lot of this coming (in hindsight) for at least a year prior to that... How long it has been for me isn't really important, but I agree that this long standing pain and limbo is painful and crazy making...

I agree with 25 in that it has been plenty of time to see the results of your efforts. What you have been doing has not been working if the results you have been hoping for was R. I came to this realization in my own sitch and have further committed myself to changing my efforts to change the sitch...

For what ever reason, of which I am no longer interested in figuring out, I remain a non-option for my W.

Point of origin, Limboland, her ship has sailed and I'm on a different boat headed for other parts...

and I'm OK with the course of my ship and possible destinations...

Chart a course or not, set sail my friend and make a difference in your life... I'm happy to not be in Limbo any more... cool
Posted By: Redo Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/20/12 09:38 PM
Navy:

Man reading your last post was a deja Vu (minus the ball) on some convo's i had with my W in the past. Here's my take.

1: Great on handling W's BFF's. Kudos.

Quote:
I am just assuming here, but I’m pretty sure there’s probably a previous text from W that says something along the lines of “this is gonna suck having to go to the ball with H”. I didn’t want to ruin the night for myself, so I didn’t say anything.
Just my 2cents. Don't try to figure out what you dont see or hear directly. No point in it. Our minds have an awesome ability to exaggerate the worst fears. Recognize when you are trying to mind read and stop yourself. You really don't know what your W's earlier text to her BFF was. for all you know, it could have been something innocuous.

Quote:
Then W decides to say “you realize they’re going through the early stages of what we’ve been going through”
Either W is testing to see what your take is, or she sees your friend's and is reminded of the past. Either way, it was a trap.

Quote:
So I respond to W: “I agree…but I don’t think that I ever treated you the way he treats his W. I was clueless and selfish at times, and at times was a far from perfect husband, but I don’t think I deserve to be lumped in with other H”.

This is exactly how i used to respond in the past. Ditto. Thats because i used to take my W's comments personally. Yea, maybe she was trying to get you to react this way so that she can go off on you. Know what i do now? I try to be an observer to her comments. Not a participant. I then just acknowledge or if i feel that we are about to enter a war zone, i change topics with something interesting. In your case, you could have taken advantage of the nice mood she was in after the ball.

Quote:
And W exploded. All the same things we’ve gone over hundreds of times, but this was certainly the most she’s ever yelled…

Yup, that's how my W also used to bait me. Nowadays, If i am able to diffuse the situation, i bring it up with her and suggest that perhaps she is 'looping' these crazy scenarios in her mind. This is not something that should be left alone. Your wife needs to handle it at some point. Once she sees and recognizes how her resentment is destroying a potentially great R with you.

Quote:
Eventually she got up to go to the bathroom. I just sat there on the floor for awhile. She came back out and had calmed down a bit. I told her: “I don’t want you to be miserable. And I don’t want to be miserable. I’m not forcing you to do anything here. I am doing everything I can to make your life better, yet it seems that I am also the reason you are miserable. I don’t understand why and I don’t know what to do about it. I don’t want to give up…but I also don’t want you to be miserable anymore.”
Could not have handled it better. I think that was good.

Quote:
D6 came down in the morning to play Wii. Shortly after, W came downstairs. I looked at W…and the first thing she said was “sorry about last night”. I said “I’m sorry too”.

I have no idea exactly what she was apologizing for.

Good that you guys said the apologies. I dont think she knows why she apologized either. Maybe she thought that by apologizing, it just make her feel better inside. See the problem here is that now she might end up adding the last evening's blowup onto her own resentment pile (not the one where you disappointed her, but where she is disappointing herself). This is what she needs to stop doing.

I think you guys can pull this off. You just need to become stronger.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/20/12 09:51 PM
if all she wants from you is childcare but to leave her alone

ask her to leave & give you the kids so you can have a real wife/marriage.

This is not a marriage and apparently she's not interested in giving a thing to it.

Does she realize her treatment of you is unfair? Really?

If she feared losing you, it might make a difference.


Other than that, all I can say is

you need to live your life now. No more "on hold". I wish we knew what she apologized for...

but no matter if she's still cold to you. Navy, there are good people out here in the Real world...

your w is stuck in her misery.

Only being away from you and still being miserable, is likely to show her the truth.


Take back your life my friend...

((( )))
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/21/12 04:42 AM
Ugh Navy. I SO relate to you and your situation. Your W seems to have so much anger built up inside of her just like mine does. I believe that they both have to get that out, heal, forgive, and ultimately begin to trust again, before any true reconciliation can happen. That may never happen for either of us.

I see obvious signs that my W gets that and is now trying, but for a very long time, I didn't see evidence of that at all. But something that I have learned over the past couple of months, is that even when I wasn't seeing outward evidence that my W was trying, she was. She has been trying throughout our entire S. I suspect that your W is too.

The anger that she displays is clearly a sign of a lot of hurt. Whether or not you agree with the reasons for that hurt, it is real to her. I did a lot of bad things in my M that clearly hurt my W. But it seems that I get blamed for a lot that I didn't do.

Why? IMO, it's because of the anger that they had to build up to use as fuel to leave us. Without that fuel, they would never have had the strength to leave the M in the first place.

The residual of their doing that though is that they convinced themselves that we were the sole cause of all that is bad in their world. Some of that's true, some of it isn't.

But it is true for them right now.

NOTHING that you can do is going to change that.

Only time will heal her Navy. Time and Navy being the best person that he can possibly be.

I have a couple of 2x4's for you, but take them with a grain of salt. You have been at this for nearly as long as I have. Or longer. I don't recall. Point is, is that you are an experienced DBer and hardly need to be told that your choices or actions are right or wrong. But they are my thoughts on what happened after the ball.

Originally Posted By: Navyguy
I was working on putting my foot down with regards to being blamed for my W’s misery and her treatment of me. I’ve had some successes and some setbacks as a result of this. I can’t say that the setbacks are really unexpected, but they still hurt. W still blames me for her lot in life, and anytime I don’t put up with that, she gets PO’d.


Quick note here Navy. I think that there is a difference between not putting up with something, and pointing out that you and W have covered particular ground, that you have taken responsibility for your actions, apologized, and have taken steps to correct.

Personally, I don't think that it's a good idea to shut your W down when she wants to talk. Even if that talk is redundant statements of how bad of a H you were in her eyes. You want her to talk to you. You want her to get her anger out.

But if you say, "W, I'm no longer listening to this", I personally think that you are minimizing her feelings by telling her to stop talking.

How about trying, "W, I feel that we've talked about how bad I was a lot. I feel like I've apologized and sought forgiveness from you. And I feel that I've done a lot of work on myself so that I don't repeat my mistakes with you or anyone else ever again. But, if you want to talk about this some more, I will listen. I just don't have any more to say about it myself." Something like that? And then, just listen.

I know that you have done A LOT of this over the last year+. Maybe you are at the end of your rope. I would definitely understand that because there have been numerous times that I have felt that way. Only you can answer that though.

Originally Posted By: Navyguy
Then W decides to say “you realize they’re going through the early stages of what we’ve been going through”. Ok fine…I understand that the other W is building resentment now, just like my W was when our D was born. But I see some huge differences between how other H and I. I don’t want to get into specifics since he is my friend, but some of the things I have heard he’s done and said really make me cringe.

So I respond to W: “I agree…but I don’t think that I ever treated you the way he treats his W. I was clueless and selfish at times, and at times was a far from perfect husband, but I don’t think I deserve to be lumped in with other H”.


Here is my main 2x4. You minimized the way that she feels. It may not be based in reality or fact Navy, but it is true for her right now. And frankly, she didn't even accuse you of being similar to other W's H. At least not the way that you described the conversation.

I think that you can validate the way that she feels without necessarily agreeing.

"Yeah W, I definitely wish that we would never have had to go through that." And/Or, "I wish that I had never hurt you the way that I did."

Originally Posted By: Navyguy
And W exploded. All the same things we’ve gone over hundreds of times, but this was certainly the most she’s ever yelled…she was really screaming at me. “You mistreated me for 6 years. You didn’t listen when I told you how unhappy I was. You weren’t there for me and D when she was born. You are such a selfish person. You don’t understand what I went through. You obviously still don’t get it. You’re pushing me, forcing me to share the bed with you, I only came back because you guilted me into it, Etc. etc.”


Sounds an awful lot like my W during the SB weekend. She spewed such venom that weekend. She told me later that it felt good to just let all of that out.

I think that you handled it well. Except for choosing to go sleep in a different room. IMO, from experience, that is never, ever a good idea.

Originally Posted By: Navyguy
I told W: “I understand you were unhappy, and I understand why. And as soon as I understood how unhappy you were (which I acknowledge was much later than it should have been) I did 4 things: figured out what I was doing wrong, stop doing it, own it and apologize for it, and learn how to start doing things right”.

W then told me I was changing my story and called me I liar. I told her I wasn’t and repeated the 4 things and that I know I have done them and will continue to learn how to be a better husband for the rest of my life.


Right here. You totally contradicted yourself. Earlier you were saying how you were not that bad. But here, you talk about how you were bad, what you've learned, and what you've done to fix it. I don't think that you are a liar, but you did contradict yourself.

Originally Posted By: Navyguy
Then W said she could never talk to me about anything and that is why she is so close to the BFFs. That every time they had a “girls night” it was so she could get away from being miserable with me.


That's how she feels. That's how my W has felt. Very recently, I've told my W that I want her to feel safe in telling me everything and anything. And I've focused on doing a painful amount of listening to my W. About anything and everything... not just how bad I was... although there is still plenty of that at times.

It's weird, my W has a lot of interesting things to say. And she's excited about life in general. It's actually made me really happy to see that side of my W.

Originally Posted By: Navyguy
We ended it there, and she went to get ready for bed. I went into our room and laid down for a second, then decided I didn’t want to sleep in the same bed as her. I went and slept (well, mostly just laid there awake) downstairs.


Again, IMO, never a good idea to leave the marital bed. I will never do it again.

Originally Posted By: Navyguy
D6 came down in the morning to play Wii. Shortly after, W came downstairs. I looked at W…and the first thing she said was “sorry about last night”. I said “I’m sorry too”.


I actually think that her apology is a very good thing. A sign that she still cares, and possibly a sign that she is trying in her own way.

I don't know Navy. I get that nothing seems to be progressing with your sitch. I do. I'm not sure if the answer is for you to tell her that you don't want her to be unhappy and offer her the chance to begin the D process, or if the answer is for you to just give her more space and time. Whatever wounds that she has that she puts on you took years to inflict, that is obvious. Maybe you just haven't given this enough time for those wounds to heal. THAT is definitely my situation, but that does not mean that they are the same.

Good luck my friend... with whatever you choose to do.

Denver
Posted By: bustorama Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/21/12 06:21 AM
NavyGuy,

Starting to read through your threads again.

I know you are getting tired from the (apparent) lack of progress, but stop trying to talk her out of her feelings/convince her that she should not resent you.

Let her resent you all she wants. The issue is whether or not you allow yourself to be subjected to acts of resentment. That's your choice.

If she is to stop resenting you and choose to get over her hurt (or come to you saying she wants to work with you on getting over her hurt), it will have to come from her. If you are getting tired of her resenting you, the solution is not to tell her to stop resenting you or that she should have stopped resenting you by now. Telling her what she should be feeling or doing "by now" is a sure way to get her to keep resenting you.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/21/12 08:27 AM
Denver/Navy

Just my quick uptake okay, so of course I could be way off...but in Navy's situation he's NOT done many bad things. Maybe I missed something in Navy's past, but if I recall it right,

We're talking Navy's "failures" as "too much computer" and 'Not enough help at home or w/the kids"..... which ended I think 3 YEARS ago... Denver, no offense buddy, but Navy doesn't have a lot of blemishes on his h record...

Since Navy's wife has gone inward, she decided Navy's to blame or SEEMS TO be, for "abuse" she got as a kid, or thinks she got. Every bad thing done by MEN TO HER, or as she sees it, is somehow combined in one pile and Navy is the scapegoat for it....as well as

anything else unfair in her life, which she says she hates.. b/c her life sukks" etc/

when I read comments like that, from a mother with healthy children, I know it's not Navy...it's her...


She Lumps it all in together placing Navy in a real SOB/jerk's position,

in the "all men are alike AND are abusive or exploitive" and it's patently unfair to him.

She's made NO progress toward forgiving or letting go.

She actively seeks out validation for her anger even now....So I fear that even if he totally changed, imo, she is not interested...


and Denver, she didn't say any of the positive loving things your w has said, when there was some positive movement in your sitch. Navy's wife has offered, at best, to co-parent under one roof

AND to be miserable while she's at it AND

to treat him like crap too...so i don't see how it's a decent deal even for the kids, let alone Navy...(or his wife for that matter.

She sounds terribly miserable, but is like someone circling the drain and taking those near her, down with her.)

Those are big differences between the situations to me.

But I know you both have been in limbo for a long time. And that does sukk. And you have both dug deep and made REAL changes in yourselves as men and partners. Someday a woman will find you, and feel blessed.

Originally Posted By: bustorama
NavyGuy,

Starting to read through your threads again.

I know you are getting tired from the (apparent) lack of progress, but stop trying to talk her out of her feelings/convince her that she should not resent you.

Let her resent you all she wants. The issue is whether or not you allow yourself to be subjected to acts of resentment. That's your choice.


DITTO to THIS^^^Navy


If she is to stop resenting you and choose to get over her hurt (or come to you saying she wants to work with you on getting over her hurt), it will have to come from her.

If you are getting tired of her resenting you, the solution is not to tell her to stop resenting you or that she should have stopped resenting you by now. Telling her what she should be feeling or doing "by now" is a sure way to get her to keep resenting you.



I've been on Navy's thread a long time. This is an extreme case. I have seen no movement from her towards him in a real way.

All I recall is that she's blaming him for ALL her own issues and making no effort to work on them so she is voluntarily stuck and wants no one else to move forward either, I guess...

So they've been in limbo for YEARS now.. is it 3 years now? And Navy's pulling all his weight at work and at home and getting nothing back...

and the longer they are married the more benefits she accrues along with a higher % of his pension...not that it's the reason she's still there b/c she also has nowhere else to go...but I think she's biding her time.

And I think he's wasting his, albeit in an honorable effort for his kids.

Navy, what do you think your children see, when they see your m?


Would it be the worst thing in the world for them to see change? You making a choice to be happy anyway you can and that means without her, PROBABLY...

What if you found someone down the road, who loved & respected you and treated your kids like her own? And loved you well - so they could see that?

Those women exist Navy...

for the past 3 years your w has not been one of them.

Honestly Navy, with things as they have been for years now, I don't see your marriage substantively improving, do you?

What will it take for you to change this? Since she is fine being stuck in misery

she won't make a move to improve things. She would have by now and she hasn't.

I can only hope/pray that she might move towards you IF she feared losing you
, maybe to some OW who would see you AND your kids in a loving way, and replace your w as the source of nurturing in the family...

b/c for awhile now, your w has been pretty self centered, and miserable oftenat least when you describe her...

So maybe that's what it would take for her to get off her butt and be in charge of her own life/happiness

and END the longest marital BLAME GAME I've seen in a long time...fearing the loss of you to OW....

IF you have one more round in you for DBing, that's all I can offer you. Fake Date or something...

if she confronts about it, you can "hypothecate" that in the event you were to date,

you want to reassure her that you'd "never have the kids meet OW... unless it was serious"


You are empowered in this, as much as you choose to be. Seriously.
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/21/12 10:32 AM
No offense 25. I know. I also agree with everything that you just said. Navy's in a very tough spot right now.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

I can only hope/pray that she might move towards you IF she feared losing you[/b], maybe to some OW who would see you AND your kids in a loving way, and replace your w as the source of nurturing in the family...

b/c for awhile now, your w has been pretty self centered, and miserable oftenat least when you describe her...

So maybe that's what it would take for her to get off her butt and be in charge of her own life/happiness

and END the longest marital BLAME GAME I've seen in a long time...fearing the loss of you to OW....

IF you have one more round in you for DBing, that's all I can offer you. Fake Date or something...

if she confronts about it, you can "hypothecate" that in the event you were to date,

you want to reassure her that you'd "never have the kids meet OW... unless it was serious"


That's where my money would be. Be ready for A LOT more yelling from you W though Navy. Mine blew me up in August for this! wink But it wasn't more than a month afterwards before she was telling me that she hadn't given up on our M. So I actually think that what I did had a huge positive effect even if it was a bit misguided.
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/21/12 02:18 PM
All
Let's not forget that Navy is active duty, and a flag officers aid. Any suggestion of an OW would definitely hurt his career. His boss may relieve him of his duty as soon as any hint of impropriety arises.

On the other hand....

I think navy needs to cultivate the skills and looks to be able to pull other women. Dress better, work more on specific muscle groups, be more charming and comfortably talk to other women by yourself and around W. Make her aware that you have the skills to snag an OW, but don't let her have an inch to stand on with allegations.

In my case it took buckling down and completely opening the door for my W to come around. W almost walked out a couple of times too. Each time I let her, it was gut wrenching, but W needed to feel she was with me out of choice not because I somehow co-opted her into it.

I recommend a mature game of tit for tat. If she's nice, be nice if she's cruel, then call her out and create distance. Notice I call it mature since you shouldn't do childish things like screaming or playing silly accusation games. Just tell her you disagree and walk away.

I really think you only stand to gain from playing hard ball with her. At worse she'll walk (which I think some of us here think that's not necessarily bad). At best she'll maybe snap out of it. Call her bluff. Really do it.

It's leadership 101 people hate to be forced into anything, so don't force her to stay.
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/21/12 02:26 PM
After reading DB for emergency care in my marriage this article is probably the second most helpful thing I read. I think it may help out.

http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/10/why-and-how-nice-guys-strategize-to.html?m=0
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/22/12 02:10 AM
I read that article GB...

it's sad to me if this is how it is with other couples,

b/c when my h plays the "nice card" I give you my word

I feel more loving to him and i get on board with it.

It's his temper that worsens things when I'm not up to my game. But when I am, and when I DB in the face of his temper, it usually ends up lowering the temperature in him too.

So the love is met with love, not taking advantage of. THis article seems like a lot of measuring would happen and that's not so cool to me.

Also my gut says somehow in the article, "nice" reads as weak. Am I off there?

JMO.

also, I seriously doubt the idea of Navy dating would hurt his career at all. I told him a remark he could make to his wife...there are subtle ways he can get the point across without risking a charge of adultery.


if his w freaked and called his boss to report supposed affairs, she would not be the first crazy w to call a boss with that complaint.

The commanders I dealt with tended to take their soldier's side of things unless violence was in the home. And most wives don't like hearing this but adultery is a very rare charge. There are almost always aggravating circumstances such as "in exchange for an honorable discharge", which was the only time I had an adultery client out of 300...fwiw.


Navy, the consistent theme here is what matters. She has to fear losing you, so whatever that means...figure it out.

YOu Realize she may say "fine, go!" AND if she does, then nothing you do will get her to come around, so you may as well learn that now...

to just get to the other side of this, that much faster and stop wasting time.

OTOH, you may have a reaction like Denver had...in time. To consider GB's remarks, sure, be discreet.

but you have to DO something NEW and DIFFERENT...in a big way

Sorry you are in this situation...
((( )))
Posted By: punchy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/22/12 03:31 AM
Hey Navy,

Thx for your recent update. I check in on the Board every couple of months to see what is going on. I am going on 2.5 years in my situation. My wife is not as angry as yours but does have the same lack of engagement. There is also OM lurking in the background.

25's advice is very interesting and is similar to what my friends are telling me. We deserve better, our kids deserve more and there is a better option out there. Like you, for some reason I just can't throw in the towel. Not sure if it is the fear of leaving her or the fear of what my kids future will be.

I would almost be glad if my wife came forth and asked for a divorce. It appears that neither one of us has the where with all to make this happen. She continues to have contact with OM and I have told her that if she wants to be with him, then go. Our last discussion on this was 3 months ago and she is still here.

Good luck with your situation. At some point both you and I need to take back control of our future and start putting what's left of our lives back together.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/22/12 09:30 AM
Punchy

what do you think it would take for you to make the move?

If she still has contact w/OM, along with NO work on the marriage,

I have to wonder how much worse it would have to get before you'd act.

I don't mean to push you at ALL...but am hoping to help you clarify and maybe improve your situation...

If it were going to get better by "leaving it alone" and "not discussing it" then by now it would have resolved.

I find few, if any, conflicts like this just fade away...you have to resolve it Or it worsens.

If standing now means that your kids see you treated this way for that much longer and the end result is the same (she goes)
then
all you've done is hurt your legal case (probably owe her more for a longer marriage)

and exposed your kids to a lousy marital situation.

Do you have daughters seeing how your w treats a man? What are they learning about men? What would you tell them if they treated their h's the way your w is treating you?

Do you have sons who see the situation?

What would you tell your SON to do, & for how long, if he came to you with this very problem?
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/22/12 12:41 PM
25
Youre probably right about the charges not being common, they're usually involved when someone screams out rape, or if he dates a subordinate. I'm just saying Navy is a flag officers aide, he could go far, he shouldn't risk it IMHO.
YES believe me I do know a thing or two about crazy spouse calls. On the other hand I have seen commands fully support dating in cases where there is a legal separation in play. Most commands take into account how some states demand ridiculous long separation before divorce time, so will grant some leeway if the Soldier discloses this.

Personally I support walking away. The article does refer to nice as weak. Or rather guys who are soo nice that they walked all over. Sometimes you have to push back, otherwise you'll always get picked on. I think Navy needs to push back, of course in a mature adult way.

In my case standing strong on my boundaries and doing what he calls tit for tat in the article made my W respect me more, then respect led to affection, and we are better now than we were before. A couple of times when I held on she threatened to leave. I held steady and I believe it led to more respect on her part. (which if you remember she had none for me).

I certainly do agree he has nothing to lose and tons to win.
Posted By: punchy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/22/12 06:06 PM
re 25

For me to make the move, I just need to acknowledge and accept that it is over and there is no hope for a new relationship. Part of me is hoping that things will change based on the changes that I have made. She sees the OM at work as they have the same employer. He was putting pressure on her early in the New Year to make a decision and the fact that she still hasn't decided gives me some optimism that she sees value in staying where she is.

In terms of accepting that there is no chance for a new relationship with my wife, I am working towards giving myself a deadline of June 30. At that point, unless there is any improvement I will need to accept reality and move on. We can then use the summer to address things with the kids and allow my wife to find another place to live in advance of the new school year in the fall.
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/22/12 07:20 PM
Wow...thanks everyone. Lots for me to digest here (that is a good thing).

A couple quick things:

W is on her way to visit BFF in Ohio right now. She won't be back until Sunday, so I have 4 days to get a clear mind.

___________________

Kaffe & Karma - I agree that the liquid courage had a lot to do with her blow up and that she was setting me up with her comment about me and other H.

___________________

Denver - You are right...there is a lot of hurt there, whether it is all my fault or not. When I say I am not putting up with W, I mean that I point out that W and I have covered particular ground, that I have taken responsibility for your actions, apologized, and have taken steps to correct. I definitely know better than to invalidate her at this point...even if she is wrong, it's not going to do me any good to tell her that. The problem here is that I've been feeding into her victim mentality. By saying I wasn't as bad as other H, I was trying to draw a boundary on what I would and wouldn't be blamed for. You are correct that she probably took it as invalidation though.

That was the first time I've ever been the one to leave the bed. I honestly think that in this case it had the exact effect that everyone is telling me I need to create here. It made her fear that she had finally gone too far with me...and that is why she apologized the next morning. She has never apologized for getting upset with me in the past.

Awesome to hear you and W are making some real progress. I think we have both been at this about the same length of time...seems like we keep going back and forth as far as who has made the most progress. Must be that whole roller coaster thing at work.

______________

25 - thanks again for your posts and helping me and everyone else here. You rule. I think my biggest "crime", in my wife's eyes, was that I didn't listen to her when she was trying to tell me she was unhappy for quite a long time (as a result of the computer games and being out golfing/biking) She swears that she did...I think she definitely could have done a better job being clear with me...but it is what it is. I didn't catch on until she had a foot out the door. Typical WAW story from DB.

I know I'm not the problem at this point. I have had numerous friends of W and I ask (unsolicited) how things are going because they've heard things from other friends. I just say I'm hanging in there. Then they tell me what a great thing I'm doing and what a great guy I am.

______________

GB - the flag aide thing was only a temp gig for January. I'm back to my normal job now. I agree that I need to start pointing out when she's treating me like crap more often. The reason I don't is because when I have in the past, she gets upset and tells me she's tired of me making her feel like a jerk. Pretty sure she's beating herself up internally but doesn't want to admit it. Same thing for when she feels "judged". She's constantly judging herself and won't admit that to herself, so she blames me for her feeling judged.

I'm not sure about the whole Nice Guy philosophy. I've read that a couple times and while a lot of it definitely speaks to me, I'm not sure it would help me get what I want in my case.

______________

Anyways, I think I will give the fake date thing a shot. Tell W I'm going to grab a drink or something after work a few times over the next few weeks and see what happens. Can't hurt anything to try it.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/22/12 07:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Navyguy
Wow...thanks everyone. Lots for me to digest here (that is a good thing).

A couple quick things:


Kaffe & Karma - I agree that the liquid courage had a lot to do with her blow up and that she was setting me up with her comment about me and other H.

___________________

Denver - You are right...there is a lot of hurt there, whether it is all my fault or not. When I say I am not putting up with W, I mean that I point out that W and I have covered particular ground, that I have taken responsibility for your actions, apologized, and have taken steps to correct. I definitely know better than to invalidate her at this point...even if she is wrong, it's not going to do me any good to tell her that. The problem here is that I've been feeding into her victim mentality. By saying I wasn't as bad as other H, I was trying to draw a boundary on what I would and wouldn't be blamed for. You are correct that she probably took it as invalidation though.


regardless of feeling invalidated, her beliefs are harmful and inaccurate.

Deny being like the other h, period.

"I'm not him and never was. I refuse to be blamed for how that marriage affected you. It's over. We are in this marriage now and you are the one dragging it down.

I've tried to help & be patient, but this really is your work to do. I want & deserve to be much better treated."

Do not play into her victim mentality b/c that makes YOU the victimizer.



That was the first time I've ever been the one to leave the bed. I honestly think that in this case it had the exact effect that everyone is telling me I need to create here. It made her fear that she had finally gone too far with me...and that is why she apologized the next morning. She has never apologized for getting upset with me in the past.

interesting


______________

25 - thanks again for your posts and helping me and everyone else here. You rule. I think my biggest "crime", in my wife's eyes, was that I didn't listen to her when she was trying to tell me she was unhappy for quite a long time (as a result of the computer games and being out golfing/biking) She swears that she did...I think she definitely could have done a better job being clear with me...but it is what it is. I didn't catch on until she had a foot out the door. Typical WAW story from DB.


blah blah blah...She's NOT a Typical WAW here... 95% if WAWs around here have real crap h tales to tell. Your wife doesn't.

If she went to Retrovaille and heard the marriage problems being worked out THERE, she'd be mortified to have complained, let alone to have damaged your family by over reacting to your flaws as a human. She's painting a picture that is not real. And she's the one with the problem.

If that "neglect" is all you did for real, STFU and drop it. I'm sorry b/c I'm in a hurry now and sound abrupt, but I'd have to say ENOUGH!!

My h is getting deployed, which sukks financially/emotioinally and parentally. His pay will be cut in half, and before that we had his terminally ill mother here, who I DID the bulk of the care for, almost 24/7, b/c his salary was higher and his hours were long and it stressed me out big time. She passed away and it really took a toll.

H was also gone A LOT for work and I was alone with her AND the kids at night...H could have been much more appreciative in my opinion but hey, HIS mother was the one dying. He was hurting more than me.

My point is, all that happened POST DBing and I didn't whine about it or withdraw. I sukked it up. We're adults. Your "crimes" are misdemeanors at worst.


I know I'm not the problem at this point.

thank God for that^^^


I have had numerous friends of W and I ask (unsolicited) how things are going because they've heard things from other friends. I just say I'm hanging in there. Then they tell me what a great thing I'm doing and what a great guy I am.

______________

GB - the flag aide thing was only a temp gig for January. I'm back to my normal job now. I agree that I need to start pointing out when she's treating me like crap more often.
The reason I don't is because when I have in the past, she gets upset and tells me she's tired of me making her feel like a jerk.

so she sees no connection between her behavior and your reaction? Convenient.

Pretty sure she's beating herself up internally but doesn't want to admit it.

hmmm, maybe you should not assume this^^^..(I wouldn't).


Same thing for when she feels "judged". She's constantly judging herself and won't admit that to herself, so she blames me for her feeling judged.


You are mind reading here. And besides, you can judge the BEHAVIOR without judging the person.

If she steals, identfy the act as a theft. You are not judging HER but you are able to say "that is stealing and it's wrong"...

the idea that you stating the truth upsets her - and so it stops you from doing that, is...pretty wacky. How has it been working so far?

I'm not sure about the whole Nice Guy philosophy. I've read that a couple times and while a lot of it definitely speaks to me, I'm not sure it would help me get what I want in my case.

GB is a big proponent of it, says it helped him and I know some other guys here say that too.

But what I read turned me off b/c it felt retaliatory and immature. But my m is perhaps just different. (And maybe I misunderstood it?)

But all these ideas are things for you to consider, separate the chaff from the wheat and use what you believe will work for YOU. So far, we know what has not worked.


Anyways, I think I will give the fake date thing a shot. Tell W I'm going to grab a drink or something after work a few times over the next few weeks and see what happens. Can't hurt anything to try it.


If you are smart about it, I don't see any downside. (Don't get drunk, of course. She'd love that).

But be happy, for real. You deserve it. Plus, who knows? You might get a reaction like Denver's wife gave him...IN TIME....
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/23/12 01:27 AM
I agree with the drink, go out have fun, don't get a DUI (safety brief of course!), and don't get drunk or come home too late.

As for the article it's no biggie if it all didnt click with you, my point in bringing it up though is that you have been nothing but nice, so she has a green light to treat you like crap because she knows you'll just keep being nice.

If your W apologized when she usually doesn't, that is huge in my opinion. Like it was said before you not sleeping in the same bed may have pushed the message across. Now don't run for the couch every time you guys fight, since things done repeatedly lose their effectiveness. I'd recommend coming up with a small list of ways of showing increasing detachment, and change them up whenever she blows up.

How does the saying go... You don't value something until its gone...
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/23/12 08:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Navyguy

Awesome to hear you and W are making some real progress. I think we have both been at this about the same length of time...seems like we keep going back and forth as far as who has made the most progress. Must be that whole roller coaster thing at work.


Roller coaster?! LOL... Yeah... definitely been a roller coaster ... from HELL! LOL

Sometimes, I don't know if it is an advantage or disadvantage that you have your W in the home with you. Personally, I have grown to appreciate my W not living in our home with things the way that they are. I have had to practice a tremendous amount of patience with dealing with the things that have happened, but I'm not sure I could do it if she were living in the home. I applaud you for your patience Navy. I think that you have done about everything that you can to save your marriage. You should be proud of that.

Denver
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/24/12 12:05 AM
ditto that^^^ Navy...

you can hold your head high, no matter what comes next.

You really have been valiant in your efforts.
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/27/12 08:20 PM
Hey everyone. Well, W is back from Ohio. She got home Sunday night really late. Apparently Ohio bff's son got back from her ex's on Sunday and wanted to hang out with W. So I got to explain to Our S and D that they weren't going to see mommy until Monday. I was asleep when W got home.

I went to work Monday morning. When I got home, W was on the phone with Hawaii BFF. She spent most of the next 4 hours in the phone with the 2 Bff's and her brother, while I cleaned and got the kids ready for and into bed.

Once I had the kids in bed, I was sitting and watching tv. W was still on the phone. W usually goes outside to talk on the phone, but for some reason sat in the kitchen while talking to Ohio BFF. W started talking about how she is friends with guys on FB and that it wasn't a big deal. I don't know what was going on...but it sounded like BFF had told this guy not to friend W but he did anyways. Weird. Even weirder that W had this convo with me in earshot...unless she was trying to bait me. Later I went on FB and found that W has hidden her friends list from everyone.

The fun continues. Blah.
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/27/12 08:29 PM
Originally Posted By: Navyguy
Hey everyone. Well, W is back from Ohio. She got home Sunday night really late. Apparently Ohio bff's son got back from her ex's on Sunday and wanted to hang out with W. So I got to explain to Our S and D that they weren't going to see mommy until Monday. I was asleep when W got home.

I went to work Monday morning. When I got home, W was on the phone with Hawaii BFF. She spent most of the next 4 hours in the phone with the 2 Bff's and her brother, while I cleaned and got the kids ready for and into bed.

Once I had the kids in bed, I was sitting and watching tv. W was still on the phone. W usually goes outside to talk on the phone, but for some reason sat in the kitchen while talking to Ohio BFF. W started talking about how she is friends with guys on FB and that it wasn't a big deal. I don't know what was going on...but it sounded like BFF had told this guy not to friend W but he did anyways. Weird. Even weirder that W had this convo with me in earshot...unless she was trying to bait me. Later I went on FB and found that W has hidden her friends list from everyone.

The fun continues. Blah.


I would calmly confront her about this. I'd let her know that, under the circumstances, it seems rather shady that she would hide her friends list from you.

I'm sure that she this will cause another blow up from her Navy. My W blew up every time I had to confront her about something I found that was shady. It's their own guilt that causes it. All you can do is remain calm in the face of it. Easier said than done. But possible if you are prepared.

Denver
Posted By: Redo Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/27/12 09:10 PM
Quote:
Even weirder that W had this convo with me in earshot...unless she was trying to bait me


sounds like bait to me. I know I am going against Denver here, but i would not even bother to talk about it. She never told you directly, so act like you do not care. Remember? you have better things in life to do and be happy than get involved in her drama.

I think the only way people in misery can feel better is when they make other people also miserable. So don't give her that pleasure.

Just my 2 cents. I could be wrong.
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/27/12 09:15 PM
It's a tough call Karma. I see your point. However, for me, I felt like I needed to know if there was an OM involved.

Unfortunately for Navy, this screams of something inappropriate going on. IMO, he needs to know so that he can make future decisions with full knowledge of what is going on.

Plus, at some point, he needs to draw a line in the sand and say "I will not be a part of a M where I am treated with zero respect."
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/28/12 01:39 AM
I agree with Denver

It's bait alright, and I can think of 3 reasons why she's doing it:

1. She wants Navy to overreact so she can get mad at him and justify her infatuation with a possible OM.

2. She's actively testing the boundaries of the relationship to see how much she can get away with. Expect her to demand her "privacy" while she starts to actively chat up this new guy.

3. She might actually be warming up to Navy again but is too stubborn so she is baiting him so she can be the victim again.

Most importantly I think his W is trying to have it both ways. She wants the financial, logistical, and emotional support Navy provides, but has no interest in having a real marriage. We've gone over this before.

The appearance of a new guy though is very concerning. Another male with which she can bond with (even of only at a friendly level) automatically puts Navy at a disadvantage. Call GB crazy but I believe that from this point every interaction, every conversation, and every action will be compared to this guy and any other "friends" she may have.

"why is it that I have so much fun with these men, but I can't even stand my husband"

As to how to handle it, my recommendation is to bring up that you overheard her conversation, and also noticed she is hiding her friends list. Tell her you are not accusing her of anything, but that her actions could give the wrong impression. Tell her you want to trust her, but it's hard when she looks like she has something to hide.

At this point expect her to fly off the handle. My guess is she'll say something hurtful or threaten to leave in order to get you to back off. She'll act outraged and say you are violating her privacy. It's a smokescreen dont get baited into apologizing for violating her privacy. Let her know that a condition for being married to you is a certain level of transparancy. That being said I think it may be a good idea to make a list of your non-negotiables.

Expect her to rebel and threaten a walk out. Hold strong and weather the storm. I think you should call her bluff.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/28/12 02:24 AM
Originally Posted By: greenblue90
That being said I think it may be a good idea to make a list of your non-negotiables.



Long, long, LONG overdue, I should say.



Starsky
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 03/28/12 02:33 AM
Originally Posted By: greenblue90
I agree with Denver

It's bait alright, and I can think of 3 reasons why she's doing it:

1. She wants Navy to overreact so she can get mad at him and justify her infatuation with a possible OM.

2. She's actively testing the boundaries of the relationship to see how much she can get away with. Expect her to demand her "privacy" while she starts to actively chat up this new guy.

3. She might actually be warming up to Navy again but is too stubborn so she is baiting him so she can be the victim again.

Most importantly I think his W is trying to have it both ways. She wants the financial, logistical, and emotional support Navy provides, but has no interest in having a real marriage. We've gone over this before.

The appearance of a new guy though is very concerning. Another male with which she can bond with (even of only at a friendly level) automatically puts Navy at a disadvantage. Call GB crazy but I believe that from this point every interaction, every conversation, and every action will be compared to this guy and any other "friends" she may have.

"why is it that I have so much fun with these men, but I can't even stand my husband"

As to how to handle it, my recommendation is to bring up that you overheard her conversation, and also noticed she is hiding her friends list. Tell her you are not accusing her of anything, but that her actions could give the wrong impression. Tell her you want to trust her, but it's hard when she looks like she has something to hide.

At this point expect her to fly off the handle. My guess is she'll say something hurtful or threaten to leave in order to get you to back off. She'll act outraged and say you are violating her privacy. It's a smokescreen dont get baited into apologizing for violating her privacy. Let her know that a condition for being married to you is a certain level of transparancy. That being said I think it may be a good idea to make a list of your non-negotiables.

Expect her to rebel and threaten a walk out. Hold strong and weather the storm. I think you should call her bluff.


Agree with GB on every word.
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/01/12 03:06 AM
Hi everyone. Still chugging along here. W continues to treat me like crap. U am continuing to gradually get to where I will not put up with it.

Back to the phone call i heard the other day. I don't think there is a OM...it appears it was an issue that the Ohio BFF was having with her BF. but, W's FB friends is still hidden. At this point, i don't know if I even care. Came home from work Friday and W was pretty drunk. Apparently she polished off a handle of rum in a week....again.

I deserve better, and my kids deserve better.

I will continue to pull away and see if it gets any reaction out of W sometime soon. I'm not overly optimistic though.

To end on a better note...today D6 rode a bike for the first time. And yesterday she earned her green belt at tae kwon do. What an amazing little girl she is. smile
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/01/12 12:43 PM
Originally Posted By: Navyguy


I will continue to pull away and see if it gets any reaction out of W sometime soon. I'm not overly optimistic though.


Navy,

You are still -- nearly 3 years into this -- doing things for the WRONG REASON.

You don't pull away to get a reaction out of your wife. You pull away to get on with YOUR life, and to emotionally protect yourself while you do.

As for this:

Quote:
W continues to treat me like crap. I am continuing to gradually get to where I will not put up with it.


, I'm just shaking my head. Crap behavior is crap behavior, and one doesn't "gradually get to the point where they don't put up with it." These boundaries should be laid out IMMEDIATELY when someone is giving you the CB.


Starsky
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/01/12 12:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Navyguy

I deserve better, and my kids deserve better.



I agree.


Starsky
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/01/12 02:04 PM
Navy
I thought folks were calling me hard headed. You seriously need to demand she respect you like Starsky said its not something you can gradually ease into. It starts now.

If you must pick one or two things each week she does and put a stop to them. Better yet, next time she flies off the handle put a stop to it.

IMHO the day you make your breakthrough is the day when she goes off on a rage, and you open the door for her to walk out on. It will be an ugly, sad day.

I still remember when that day came for me. It was like the bomb all over again, but this time I pulled the trigger. We were both emotionally drained by the time it was over. I seriously thought for 3 days she really was going to leave.

Come to think of it, those days were worse than the bomb. At least I had some hope after the bomb.

The point of this is to completely free your W of the bonds she perceives you have on her. So that if she does stay then it's totally by choice.

It really is the only way.

This is how I think it should go:

*w unfairly snaps at you

Navy: I don't like what you just did, please don't do that again.

Mrs Navy: I'll do what I want/you can't tell me what to do/you're a jerk

Navy: a married couple should not treat each other like this

Mrs Navy: then I don't want to stay married/I'm leaving

Navy: I care about you, but if you'd rather leave than have a good marriage it's your choice.

*Mrs Navy becomes increasingly belligerent

*Navy: sticks to his guns, maybe creates some space between the two.

*Mrs Navy stomps out the door, or finds some space away from navy to think

*navy suffers because of uncertainty (sorry bud it's just how it goes)

*mrs navy finally makes her decision

*both move on either together or apart

OR

You could just keep walking on eggshells for the rest of your life.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/02/12 01:26 AM
Originally Posted By: greenblue90
Navy
I thought folks were calling me hard headed. You seriously need to demand she respect you like Starsky said its not something you can gradually ease into. It starts now.

If you must pick one or two things each week she does and put a stop to them. Better yet, next time she flies off the handle put a stop to it.

IMHO the day you make your breakthrough is the day when she goes off on a rage, and you open the door for her to walk out on. It will be an ugly, sad day.

I still remember when that day came for me. It was like the bomb all over again, but this time I pulled the trigger. We were both emotionally drained by the time it was over. I seriously thought for 3 days she really was going to leave.

Come to think of it, those days were worse than the bomb. At least I had some hope after the bomb.

The point of this is to completely free your W of the bonds she perceives you have on her. So that if she does stay then it's totally by choice.

It really is the only way.

This is how I think it should go:

*w unfairly snaps at you

Navy: I don't like what you just did, please don't do that again.

Mrs Navy: I'll do what I want/you can't tell me what to do/you're a jerk

Navy: a married couple should not treat each other like this

Mrs Navy: then I don't want to stay married/I'm leaving

Navy: I care about you, but if you'd rather leave than have a good marriage it's your choice.

*Mrs Navy becomes increasingly belligerent

*Navy: sticks to his guns, maybe creates some space between the two.

*Mrs Navy stomps out the door, or finds some space away from navy to think

*navy suffers because of uncertainty (sorry bud it's just how it goes)

*mrs navy finally makes her decision

*both move on either together or apart

OR

You could just keep walking on eggshells for the rest of your life.



Hire this man! ^^^ whistle
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/23/12 04:01 PM
Happy 8th Anniversary W.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/23/12 04:06 PM
Take care of yourself today, Navy...
Posted By: AprilT Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/23/12 04:09 PM
Ouch....sorry Navy. Love and light coming your way.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/23/12 04:11 PM
Navy, how's it been going for you? Have you tried implementing any of greenblue's suggestions?


Starsky
Posted By: alamo76 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/23/12 04:15 PM
Hang in there, Navy....sending prayers your way, buddy.
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/24/12 01:32 PM
Starsky/GB:

I have tried implementing your suggestions, but am having a tough time doing so - mostly because there really isn't any opportunities to do so. W doesn't "go into a rage" very often - seems to be only when I initiate a R discussion. As 25 said before, this really seems to be more of a "cold war". I have tried going out for a bit after work a couple times, but that hasn't seem to have had any effect.

Anyways, here's what's happened lately:

W seems to be going deeper into her depression (and probably pulling me down with her). I am hanging in there, but things are definitely getting harder...not easier.

W has told me that she hates school and needs a break from it, so she plans to take the summer off from school. I found this interesting because a year ago she was miserable because she "didn't have anything to focus on" - now the pendulum has swung the other way.

W's drinking seems to be increasing. I have noticed quite regularly (3-4 days/week) that she smells like booze when I get home from work lately. She has been buying handles of Rum and going through them herself in about 1 week. I am getting really concerned about this and it has made me reconsider what happened the night of the "wine bottle incident" a couple months ago. I almost think that W did want me to tell her she has a problem. I dunno. Anyways, I'm starting to get very concerned about her drinking - it is becoming daily binge drinking - aka alcoholism.

As I posted, yesterday was our 8th anniversary. I went back and forth numerous times about whether to do anything or not or to even acknowledge it or not. I decided I'd give W a gift.

I know the following goes against the DB principles, but I think I'm to the point where I had to try something different. For the newbies out there - the below is not a good example of what to do when dealing with a WAS - but my situation is pretty extreme at this point.

A couple months ago, when I thought things were on the right track I booked us a family vacation to the Carribean for October, with the intent of "giving" it to W on our anniversary. I really debated doing so, but at the last minute (about 5 pm yesterday) I decided to go ahead and do it. On the way home I picked up a white cotton beach cover-up for W (8th anniversary gift is linen) and a card and I put a brochure for the place in the Carribean in the card.

When I got home, W had again already had something to drink. D6 stayed home sick yesterday and W had spent about 3 hours at the doctor's office with her. Things were pretty "normal" but there was definitely a tension in the air - like we both knew it was our anniversary but neither of us wanted to say anything. I waited until after the kids went to bed to give W her gift.

I handed her the box and said "Happy Anniversary", she replied "thanks". Then she opened it. She looked at the cover-up and again just said "thanks". Then she opened the card and read it and saw the vacation - I could tell she was getting upset, but I didn't say anything. She also didn't say anything. She went outside to smoke and when she came back in it was obvious she had been crying. Again, I said nothing...I was not going to be baited into a fight on my anniversary. After a bit I was convinced that she wasn't going to talk to me, so I told her I was going to bed, and I did.

She stayed up for quite awhile - I ended up sending her a text: "I hope you are ok. I didn't want to upset you...I didn't know what to do about today...I just couldn't bring myself to ignore it. I don't know. Anyways, good night, and if you want to talk I'm here to listen".

W did not respond, nor did I talk to her before leaving for work this morning.

I am afraid that I am getting to the point where I am really questioning why I am doing this and why (if?) I still love her.

I think she has shown me how she feels over and over and over - and that she's not open to changing her feelings.

We'll see how things go the next couple days. I am going to Chicago this weekend to see my cousin graduate from boot camp.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/24/12 01:46 PM
Whoo boy. Where's that "face palm" emoticon, anyway???

Navy, you are what, THREE YEARS into this now? And you're still operating based on your EMOTIONS and FEELINGS, instead of what you intellectually KNOW (and have learned) are the things to do (and not do).


Quote:
I know the following goes against the DB principles, but I think I'm to the point where I had to try something different.



Honestly, I don't see anything "different" about what you did. Can you HONESTLY say that this was part of something you THOUGHT OUT, maybe got some wise outside counsel on, and then decided to do it as part of your overall plan? Or did you do it because you FELT like it, out of maybe some combination of wanting to make her feel guilty about what she was doing and maybe come running back to you?


C'mon, man . . . I call bullchit on this one. cool


Starsky
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/24/12 01:49 PM
I'll put it another way:

Line up ten of the wisest posters you know on this forum, of all stripes -- male, female, "hard", "soft," former WAW former BH, etc. Imagine you polled them about whether or not you should give your wife such a gift.

What do you suppose the "vote" would have been?

I'm not saying there's not a time for you to carefully weigh everyone's advise, and then do what YOU feel you need to do, based on your own morals, ethics and knowledge of the situation. That's certainly appropriate. But I don't think that's what this was, do you?


Starsky
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/24/12 01:59 PM
yeah, I'd be concerned about 10oz/day avg. alcohol consumption.

She's certainly "at risk"... hopefully this is just a momentary point of "self medicating" for her... hopefully she will seek help for what is certainly depression that is showing up with the alcohol consumption...

You can mention it to her or others if you are concerned... but I think you know... there's nothing you can do about it...

Wishing you and your kids the best through this...
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/24/12 07:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Whoo boy. Where's that "face palm" emoticon, anyway???

Navy, you are what, THREE YEARS into this now? And you're still operating based on your EMOTIONS and FEELINGS, instead of what you intellectually KNOW (and have learned) are the things to do (and not do).


Quote:
I know the following goes against the DB principles, but I think I'm to the point where I had to try something different.



Honestly, I don't see anything "different" about what you did. Can you HONESTLY say that this was part of something you THOUGHT OUT, maybe got some wise outside counsel on, and then decided to do it as part of your overall plan? Or did you do it because you FELT like it, out of maybe some combination of wanting to make her feel guilty about what she was doing and maybe come running back to you?


C'mon, man . . . I call bullchit on this one. cool


Starsky


Well, I had a feeling this was coming, and I am glad it did.

I honestly don't know what I'm operating on right now. What I know to be the right and wrong things to do and doing/not doing them hasn't seemed to help my sitch.

Did I get unbiased counsel on the gift? No, I didn't. I talked with a few friends (not familiar with DB principles) that thought it was a wonderful idea. I think 10 out of the 10 old-timers would have told me not to give the gift. I probably do deserve to be smacked for that.

But I will say I didn't do it to try to make her feel guilty (which I think is why she was crying) or come running back (which she certainly didn't).

I did it for 2 reasons (both of which I admit were probably driven by feelings more than thought, but also were about me taking charge of my life):

1) It has been 5 years since W and I actually celebrated an anniversary. For our 4th and 5th anniversaries I was deployed, 6th we went out but W drank a lot and got sick, 7th was right after W came back last year and we didn't do anything, and now the 8th. I am tired of not being able to celebrate my anniversary with my W and having to worry about exactly how she's going to react to whatever things I do or gifts I give her. I know someone could call me selfish for thinking this - I put my feelings before hers - I understood that and I consciously made that decision, because I am tired of constraining my love. It has gotten me nowhere. This trip is something I wanted to do for my family (the trip is for all 4 of us), and is long overdue. I am sick of having to hold back, and I am sick of walking on eggshells, and I am sick of this facade we call a family.

2) My M has been stuck in this rut and it only seems to be getting deeper. No secret there. Whichever direction this thing goes, I know I will end up ok, and I will make sure my kids end up ok. But it's gotta start moving...we're not doing anyone any favors by living like this. Maybe this will lead to me having the opportunity to "let W free" like GB talks about...I'm certainly not getting the opportunity in the limited routine interactions we've had lately.

That is my no-BS response. If it's crap, I'm more than willing to be slapped again.
Posted By: MrBond Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/24/12 07:57 PM
I'm going to go against the grain and say that there was nothing wrong with the present. With your W drinking there is something going on and it ain't the marriage. Your text to her was perfect. You didn't intrude, you left the door open if she wanted to talk, and most importantly, you gave her the choice.

Sure you were disappointed, but the fact that you were able to do that shows how much you've grown.

Withholding the R talks is good. Don't push them.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/24/12 08:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Navyguy
I know someone could call me selfish for thinking this - I put my feelings before hers - I understood that and I consciously made that decision, because I am tired of constraining my love. It has gotten me nowhere. This trip is something I wanted to do for my family (the trip is for all 4 of us), and is long overdue. I am sick of having to hold back, and I am sick of walking on eggshells, and I am sick of this facade we call a family.

2) My M has been stuck in this rut and it only seems to be getting deeper. No secret there. Whichever direction this thing goes, I know I will end up ok, and I will make sure my kids end up ok. But it's gotta start moving...we're not doing anyone any favors by living like this. Maybe this will lead to me having the opportunity to "let W free" like GB talks about...I'm certainly not getting the opportunity in the limited routine interactions we've had lately.

That is my no-BS response. If it's crap, I'm more than willing to be slapped again.



Actually? I liked your answer. It's GENUINE, and it's DECISIVE.

No 2x4s from me. Still not sure I would have done it, but I do see what your rationale for it is, and I respect your defense of your decision.


Starsky
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/24/12 10:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
I'll put it another way:

Line up ten of the wisest posters you know on this forum, of all stripes -- male, female, "hard", "soft," former WAW former BH, etc. Imagine you polled them about whether or not you should give your wife such a gift.

What do you suppose the "vote" would have been?


A gift...of LUGGAGE to pack and leave with....

more later... Sorry Navy I'll post more later but it's a rare day when I think Starsky and GB are being TOO laid back....But that's today! Enough already.


. mad




Starsky
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/24/12 10:17 PM
okay I calmed down a bit....

your text was perfect. Can you still go on the cruise but without her? I'm serious. Not to punish but to show your kids you can have fun without her. You have a sibling?

Your w is doing a good job of losing custody w/the booze, but if you know she's drinking while she's with the kids

and you leave them with her for long, then you can't suddenly raise the issue when it's time to talk custody. Either she's fit or she's not.

I would, and i mean this NOT punitively but to improve your life and move forward

at least consider


leaving her & taking the kids...you're already doing the childcare and housework and paying the bills.

Why let her mismanage the child support or worse,hurt the kids with her self medicated approach to long standing depression?

I'm NOT saying she's going to hurt them. But she is a lot like the women who do...sorry Navy. Truly...

The drinking would be my last straw...
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/25/12 04:06 PM
Hey everyone, thanks again for the support and your comments.

25: I have considered taking the vacation w/o her...and I may do so. I'm not really sure what me "leaving her and taking the kids" would look like - does that mean getting an apartment and leaving? Or are you referring to starting the D process and going for full custody?

When I got home last night W was obviously still upset and tired since she didn't sleep much the night before. I think she spent most of the day in bed. I went about my business. As I was making dinner for the kids, she came into the kitchen. I wasn't sure if she totally understood the vacation - so I asked her if she knew it was for all 4 of us. She said yes.

So I asked her why it upset her so much. She said it was because she was hoping to make it through the day without acknowledging our anniversary. I just nodded.

And that was pretty much the extent of our interaction yesterday.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/25/12 04:59 PM
what a lovely thing for her to say...

Christ that woman has a mean streak in her or a seriously clueless one.

Navy I am So very sorry. It's men like you who inspire me to remember the goodness in so many other men,

and it's women like your w who make me cringe at times, on behalf of my gender, if that makes sense.

So, what are you thinking of DOING to change things?

It's NOT "anti-DBing" to change things up.

It IS DBing to try something new when what you are doing is not working.


((( )))
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/25/12 05:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Navyguy

So I asked her why it upset her so much. She said it was because she was hoping to make it through the day without acknowledging our anniversary. I just nodded.





That was one of those times when you should just stop what you're doing, stare at them in disbelief, shake your head, and say "Wow."

mad


Unbelievable.


Starsky
Posted By: JustStunned Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/26/12 02:24 AM
Navy, there are times I disagree with Starsky’s approach. This is not one of them.

If the approach GB and Starsky have put forth doesn’t fit then modify it to fit.

If she is consuming as much alcohol as it seems she is then the children are at a greater risk for any number of negatives. If this is ignored then IMO you are complicit.

She is not teaching them positive coping mechanisms by numbing herself nor is she helping herself to heal. At a minimum setting some boundaries when the children are around is in order.

You are a field grade officer. A few of the hall marks that come with the rank are integrity, judgment, and decisiveness. What does your gut tell you to do?
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/26/12 06:14 AM
Navy
My anniversary was this last Saturday, so here is some perspective.

I'll start off with a tangent:

Ashleymadison the website for affairs reported that their highest number of registrations from women happen the day after valentines day, and the day after mothers day. The theory is that these women are reminded on those days how unhappy they are, and any attempts by their spouses to make those things special look like too little too late.

I think anniversaries fall under the same category, it's just a little harder for a website that caters to infidelity to catch that trend since everyone has different days. Nonetheless the notion that days meant to "celebrate love" only make things worse is clear.

So me and W have come to the agreement that it's not something we are going to do. There's huge pressure to make the day memorable, which means a bigger chance for disappointment. Let's face it whatever you did your W would just spin negatively either way so she's doing you a favor.

Anniversaries and valentines day to a WAW are just ugly reminders of how bad things are, when they "should" be right.

Don't get me wrong you W is still wrong for trying to pretend its not there, but what you did was only counterproductive IMHO.

I think it would have sent a stronger message had you ignored it.

Next time you find yourself debating whether you should celebrate one of these events ask yourself: does she deserve it?

Does she deserve to be celebrated for being your partner? Has she been a partner worthy of jewelry a nice card and a fancy dinner?

I believe you're supposed to be showing her that she's about to lose a good thing. Booking a trip just showed her that her reward for treating you like crap for 3 years is a vacation.
Posted By: scaredsilly Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/26/12 09:49 AM
wow! gb90, i agree! thanks for making sense of this issue most of us have to deal with!
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/28/12 07:19 AM
Though I'm not a big fan of measuring and questioning whether our spouses "deserve" our love, or when or how much (b/c I think scorecards damage marriages)...BUT

in your case I'd make an exception...seriously,

Your w already gets a lot from you while giving nothing but pain back.

She gets free baby sitting, tuition, room and board AND a scapegoat to blame all her problems, past present and future, on...

Bottom line, the reactions she gets from you are the same whether she's kind and loving to you, or treats you like crap.


That can't be right,

and it's sure not working. And your kids see it every day, 7 days a week...

Any chance you can go on the trip with your kids and a friend or sibling?

As in, without her?


I think it would be very healthy for you.

I took my kids (not h) to Italy for our 25th anniversary, a trip I'd hoped for and planned to go on with h...but when it became apparent that i'd be strung along til the last minute as to

whether h would come at all or for part of it (bc after all, WORK might call him and that would mean cutting back on a frivolous trip celebrating 25 years of marriage...) OR whether we were really married or working on it or getting divorced...the limbo annoyed me too much and the trip to Italy was something I'd dreamed of and saved for...

so I stopped assuming h would come.


Instead, I took time to plan it with my d's and we had a ball planning it ---it was half the fun...AND then going on it.

Best trip I'd ever had and there was so much LESS stress without h there! Who knew?

I can't speak for h but I am pretty darn sure it bugged him that he wasn't with us,
but even in his fog, he must have known at some level that HE created a situation in which I'd go with our children and without him - and have fun...

so who was losing out more, me or him? I mean it's not a contest but I CHOSE to be happy.

That meant I was going to be happy without him if that's what life brought me.

you need to get to that place Navy, and soon.

Is it pro- m? YES b/c I think it's the only way to turn things around

but if it doesn't,

at least you'll be happier and progressing foward,

that much faster...


You are a good man Navy. At some level you've stopped believing that.

Don't stop believing that.

Don't let her teach you to take this, or convince you thatyou are not a good man or that this is the best you can get... b/c that's a lie. You deserve better.
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/28/12 10:25 AM
Agree with 25

Just need to clarify something. I also think score carding is bad. For years W kept a score card while I was too afraid to keep one for myself. So W wouldn't allow herself to be nice too me until the score card was clear. That usually took tons of groveling

Instead what I'm saying is to throw away the card and force her to throw away her card. Instead of keeping score just follow this simple mantra.

"if you're nice to me, I'm nice to you. If you're mean to me then I am under no obligation to be nice to you."

You don't have to be mean, just ignore her, and avoid her. If she asks why say its because she is being mean. If she escalates it further and says that she'll leave tell her that's fine, that you don't want someone who will be mean to you.

As soon as she is nice again, then you are proportionally nice. It's that simple. You don't hold it against her. If she continues to be mean because she refuses to wipe the offense from the score card then you continue to withhold the niceness.

The difference is that score keeping often turns into grudge keeping. What I advocate is to wipe the slate once she behaves.

Your goal is to slowly start creating a dynamic where your W gets less and less benefit from being mean, and more and more benefits from being nice.

Afterall Navy you have nothing to lose. What's she gonna do divorce you? Oh right she already threatens that. She may not outright say it every time, but she knows she can use it as a nuclear deterrent on you.

Which reminds me of one more thing if she is using the divorce card to win fights, you seriously need to call her bluff.

If she does it again immediately walk away. Refuse to talk to her until she comes down, and pretty much stay away until she either reaches out to you or demands to know why you are shunning her.

Then tell her this:

"you threatening me with a divorce is the worst thing you could do to me, it is quite gut wrenching emotionally, if this keeps going on things will not work out for us, and we'll never find peace. So I need some space to think"

Just be careful you don't say this midfight or you will really be adding fuel to the fire, because she'll probably think you're racing her to the divorce and will seek to beat you for maximum pain on you.

Disclaimer: these types of techniques are not your typical DB if your WAW is in the beginning stages this will just utterly repel them. This applies more in situations like Navy's where the WAW refuses to leave, yet refuses to work on the marriage. Which is a variation of cake eating.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/28/12 12:15 PM
Originally Posted By: greenblue90


Which reminds me of one more thing if she is using the divorce card to win fights, you seriously need to call her bluff.

If she does it again immediately walk away. Refuse to talk to her until she comes down, and pretty much stay away until she either reaches out to you or demands to know why you are shunning her.

Then tell her this:

"you threatening me with a divorce is the worst thing you could do to me, it is quite gut wrenching emotionally, if this keeps going on things will not work out for us, and we'll never find peace. So I need some space to think"


GB, I've agreed with just about everything else you've advised to Navy, but have to agree with this part ^^^. I think the way you've phrased this conveys emotional WEAKNESS, and would only PERPETUATE his wife knowing that she can use the threat of divorce as a weapon against Navy. I think he'd be far better off saying something like:

"Look, this is now something like the tenth time you've threatened divorce, and you know what? Knock yourself out, because I've done a lot of thinking and I've decided that this isn't working for me either. If you're going to do it, then DO it, or I will, but this is the last time I'm going to simply TALK about it."

And then walk away.


Starsky
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/28/12 12:16 PM
Sorry, meant to say "have to DIS-agree with this part ^^^."

Still don't understand why this is the only message forum on the internet where you can't edit your own posts. Grrr.... mad
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/28/12 01:57 PM
Yes it is purposely soft because it's meant to keep the situation from escalating. What is more important is for Navy to show to her that she can't use the threat of divorce as a means to get things her way, by the way he acts.

His w seems like the type that would do some pretty Evil things in order to win a game of emotional chicken. She fights dirty, being too rough will just be encouragement to be even more dirty.
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/28/12 01:59 PM
Just to clarify he has to be tougher with her, I don't think me and Starsky disagree on that.

I just think there's a very important distinction between tough and rough.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/28/12 04:29 PM
Originally Posted By: greenblue90
Just to clarify he has to be tougher with her, I don't think me and Starsky disagree on that.

I just think there's a very important distinction between tough and rough.


I'm failing to see it, and that wasn't even the point I was trying to make. I'm trying to get him to not project NEEDINESS, and to do the ol' emotional jui-jitsu on her and take away her ability to use the threat of divorce as leverage on him all the time. "I agree with you, this isn't working for me either" is almost always a great play. It validates HER feelings, while letting her know he's not willing to just sit there and be "Plan B" anymore.


Starsky
Posted By: dbmod Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/28/12 05:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Originally Posted By: greenblue90


Which reminds me of one more thing if she is using the divorce card to win fights, you seriously need to call her bluff.

If she does it again immediately walk away. Refuse to talk to her until she comes down, and pretty much stay away until she either reaches out to you or demands to know why you are shunning her.

Then tell her this:

"you threatening me with a divorce is the worst thing you could do to me, it is quite gut wrenching emotionally, if this keeps going on things will not work out for us, and we'll never find peace. So I need some space to think"


GB, I've agreed with just about everything else you've advised to Navy, but have to agree with this part ^^^. I think the way you've phrased this conveys emotional WEAKNESS, and would only PERPETUATE his wife knowing that she can use the threat of divorce as a weapon against Navy. I think he'd be far better off saying something like:

"Look, this is now something like the tenth time you've threatened divorce, and you know what? Knock yourself out, because I've done a lot of thinking and I've decided that this isn't working for me either. If you're going to do it, then DO it, or I will, but this is the last time I'm going to simply TALK about it."

And then walk away.


Starsky



you guys are on the right track.


My input:

Quote:
Look, this is now something like the tenth time you've threatened divorce, and you know what? Knock yourself out, because I've done a lot of thinking and I've decided that this isn't working for me either.


Then DO the second half of what Starsky said without the words.

This is 'shock and awe'. This is doing something different. This is AFTER THE LAST RESORT technique. This is something for which you have to be prepared for the consequences.


If you want to save your marriage....


You go dark here, dark enough not to initiate a damn thing. And you center. You figure out WHAT IT IS that you must change....because something MUST STILL CHANGE if you want to save your marriage. It isn't just her.

And then you do that (you judge your results by her actions).

And then, if she's responding.....you take her back very very slowly, so you get the changes YOU want. So your relationship grows.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/29/12 12:32 AM
Fair enough Dbmod but I think Starsky's point is that

in this situation, with the history behind it, there is a difference....Navy has gone 3 YEARS with barely a kind word or touch...

HE HAS given and changed A LOT...and she has worsened!

All this change for him, for "crimes" he committed years ago that are soooo minor that it never warranted this type of reaction from his wife. (We're talking "he neglected her and didn't help around the house enough and paid too much attention to his computer..." So in sum, he was on the selfish side. NO gambling or subtsance abuse or OW or temper stuff...in the grand scheme of things,

his offenses were in the "normal" range AND that's probably why his changes were not impossible to make. Fundamentally he's a fine man.

She has some bad childhood issues

(Navy I don't know if you realize this but her childhood crap isn't that unusual. MY dad was abusive and violent and we had a wacky childhood...I went to therapy and a workshop and I got better. I CONFESS to being sensitive to some feminist stuff b/c my brothers were better treated, e.g., they had no curfews whereas my sisters and I did...but none of that affected my MARRIAGE...good grief)

IMO, Navy's wife is a female abuser. She rejects him physically about 360 days a year if my understanding is accurate, she reams him a new one for nothing, she compares him to every other lousy male example, She is a depressed morose woman to be around, and she STILL blames him for HER misery...

HE does all the work in the marriage and in the home...she does none in either.

So the only way I can see for HIM to change NOW

is to make it super clear to her that HIS days with HER are numbered...

UNLESS something in the way SHE treats HIM, changes.

NAVY---What do YOU think it'll take for HER to get that message?

AND, once she does get the message that you are out of there without some real effort on her part

is it your fear that she'll simply not care to do a darn thing?

IF so, so what? The real question is

What's different about that, than what is going on now?


--I'll tell you what could be different-- SHE would not be holding all the cards and YOU would NOT be stuck in a hellish limbo forever...teaching your kids that m stinks...and

you decide to get off this crazy loop & take the exit ramp to a new life-

OR she changes.


This is not easy, but you know what? It's really not all that complicated now.

Don't forget who you are and that you deserve much better.

Someday, you'll receive much better, and it'll be so wonderful to give yourself fully to someone who happily receives it, and happily reciprocates.

Take the exit ramp Navy...you never know, maybe SHE'LL follow...but if not, you'll be a new place that's better than where you are now.

(((( ))))
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/29/12 04:57 AM
Me and my W have a lot to work on, but the D card is for all intents and purposes put away.

We still occassionally fight, and we're having a hell of a time in our sex life. Yet we are miles ahead than where we were at this time last year.

To get there it took some pretty serious fights and arguments. Those were some pretty terrible nights in which W threatened to walk and I opened the door.

Or in which I would stand up for myself and end up escalating the situation. Trust me Navy it's worth it.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/29/12 10:39 AM
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Originally Posted By: greenblue90
Just to clarify he has to be tougher with her, I don't think me and Starsky disagree on that.

I just think there's a very important distinction between tough and rough.


I'm failing to see it, and that wasn't even the point I was trying to make. I'm trying to get him to not project NEEDINESS, and to do the ol' emotional jui-jitsu on her and take away her ability to use the threat of divorce as leverage on him all the time. "I agree with you, this isn't working for me either" is almost always a great play. It validates HER feelings, while letting her know he's not willing to just sit there and be "Plan B" anymore.


Starsky


I fully agree with Starsky;s post here^^^. GB, hey, this might just be semantics you are insisting upon- but the distinction between "rough and tough" is quite lost on me in this context. ALSO

I don't know if what You and your w have, is what Navy wants in his m b/c, for one thing He and she have kids, so some of your life style would be more difficult logistically, AND perhaps morally ** as a parent, not judging you as fellow adults--(but I do maintain you play w/fire, and will get burned more than you already have), but that aspect of OPs in the marriage of yours is not a topic for this place and if I recall right, you are NOT open to changing that anyhow...)

Back to this situation--GB, You know there are those other dynamics to your m that would not fit theirs or what he's said HE wants...

so, we all have to be mindful of over projecting our lives/visions into others'...and don't think I haven't done it too...I have too.

I guess what there IS agreement on, is that Navy must be stronger with her and in that regard,


I specifically mean for you Navy, to show her that you will be fine with or without her. Plan on nights out, then go on them...without inviting her...

DB says you can offer/invite with no expectations - but at this point I would not mention her coming UNLESS she asked, and then seem perplexed...


Let's get real...
You've wanted to show her your changes, and your deep abiding love for her, the past 3 years. I get that. I think you've done that. I commend you for it.

Sure, You can remind her of it if you feel it still bears repeating-but make sure you remind her of your efforts and that you HAVE PROVED it (and any open hearted woman or reasonable person would know this by now).

But to me, the main thing she has to realize, which she does NOT yet know,

is that you are a fine, lovable/loving man who deserves better treatment--

AND that you WILL GET BETTER TREATMENT

whether from her or someone else, b/c Navy, there are women out there who want to love and be loved.

I'm so sorry to say this but,

Evidently, Your w is NOT one of them, (when it comes to YOU), at least for now...and what's worse, is that she shows no signs of wanting to love or be loved by you.



Maybe you won't find someone OR recon with her...That's fine too, b/c the

one thing for sure that is worse than being alone....is wishing you were.


Seems to me the removal of an actively negative woman from your life, would be an improvement and you'd be happier. And that's the realistic worst case scenario for you.

Your "loss" would be that of hope. And I know that hurts but seems to me you really do overlook the possibility of having MORE HOPE W/HER.... by

dropping the rope,

than by still banging your head against the wall "trying" to please the unpleasable.

ISn't it clear by now she does NOT WANT to be happy AND OR does not know how?

And that's NOT your fault - but she wants it to be...(God I hope you attend that EE workshop...I cannot exaggerate it's influence on me and my life. My senior rater had a blast asking me about it...long story but a fun happy one...)

But then you can open your eyes to the wonderful person you are and the life you COULD create, possibly with HER...

I attended it decades ago, to address the issues I had from my screwy childhood and not wanting it to affect my marriage or my work (mostly career issues at the time, but I can see how it might spill over or block my happiness and THAT stinks for everyone )

ANYHOW, when I returned, h picked me up at the airport& he said he noticed an INSTANT change in my demeanor. That I looked "so serene" to him...weeks later, I had maintained the growth and processed it more and it deepened as I finally let some important lessons sink in....

h is NOT the workshop type of guy but dang it, HE went 3 months after me. He wanted "in" on it. When he returned from it (Which he attended without me, btw)...he said I'd given him the "Best gift [he'd] ever gotten"...and later on, we went together. It bonded us more deeply than anything else, except having children. It was THAT profound...but she stay stuck forever. POint is at least you won't be and you can get some clarity about your life path.

You're not here on Earth to suffer or pay for someone elses debts. Life is a gift. Enjoy it my friend.

In sum, Navy, I believe with all my heart that

Your w won't change without a dramatic intervention of some sort, (or an affair on either side) or something substantially big on your end.


So, if that's true, What are YOU going to do?

OR will you keep waiting for "it" to happen?

Remember, she's content (well, she's NOT "content" but I mean she's willing)

to live like this til the kids leave the house OR longer...OR til you get so fed up that you leave OR

until you have an affair she caused but she can then validate her long suffering beliefs that SHE is the victim and YOU are the victimizer...


Navy, do you believe, down deep, that you are a man another woman could love?


Did you date much before w?

I know you are in good shape, and I uniforms flatter all men...but are you --attractive? You clearly are smart and into being a dad. Those are very attractive traits...so
So, what is up with this insecurity of yours that I sense? Is it just fear of the unknown of bad past experiences? IF it's the latter, maybe you dated other high maintenance or nasty or unhealthy women..

in which case you can learn Not to do that again...

She's not the only one affected by childhood events for God's sake. Well I'm rambling now but I hope you

Keep us posted buddy. And hang in there, things WILL get better for you.

How are those children of yours?
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 04/29/12 10:21 PM
25
Not to derail too much, but that phase has been over for months. I guess that's what I get for not updating. :p As I became more confident and stronger I realized that the terms of the arrangement did not work for me at all. I was too angry and hurt, but too scared to admit it.

As I got more strength and became more assertive I finally stopped kidding myself and realized its not what I wanted. It's currently off the table. Only to be reconsidered if our marriage is absolutely stable, and we still want to try. Although I can tell that the more stable it gets, the less either of us is inclined to head that route.

IT IS playing with fire.
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/02/12 12:46 AM
Thanks for the posts everyone. I really appreciate everyone's comments. I will try to write more tomorrow, but wanted to let you all know I'm here and reading and re-reading your posts.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/12/12 12:29 AM
Navy

try to have a good weekend, (without expectations). If you encourage the kids to do right by their mom on Mother's Day and you thank her for your wonderful kids...

that's really enough, don't you think? I mean, a small gift or something made by the kids is about all I can imagine in your sitch but I don't know your past on this type of thing.

I just hope you are alright.
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/26/12 03:16 AM
Still here. Sorry I haven't posted, things have been really busy at work and things with W have been pretty bad.. Things have been getting worse. I am 99% sure that W is an alcoholic now. She told me tonight that she hasn't been able to keep any food down lately, then told me that alcohol helps her feel better. Every night w sits outside on the deck and drinks and smokes alone. I am so sick of her and her nonsense. I don't deserve this and I will not be treated like this anymore.

W's parents will be here this week. After they leave, I plan to tell W that I am not willing to continue like this. I'm not sure I would even accept her being willing to work on things at this point. I know this is going to be extremely difficult, and i plan to spend next week getting ready for it and contacting a lawyer.

Sorry I don't have better news...although some of you may see this as exactly that. smile. I actually feel like there is a light at the end of the tunnel now.

Between W and the girl i chased for most of college before meeting W, I have spent the better part of 14 years being abused...giving love and not getting it back. It's time for me to find happiness and a woman that loves me as much as I love her.

I will try to post more about the specifics of the past few weeks soon. It just makes me so angry when I talk or write about it...I feel foolish.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/27/12 01:07 AM
Don't feel foolish. Feel resolute.

We are all pulling for you, Navy.

Truly There really are good women out there, who are ready to risk their hearts and put it on the line for a good loving man. Healthy women, oh sure, they will come with flaws like we all do...

but fundamentally healthy women are willing to work on the flaws and are mainly just

HAPPY TO LOVE, AND BE LOVED...
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/27/12 01:08 AM
PS

Navy, if you have been in r's with women that pretty much both sukked -

may I suggest you talk about it with a good c?

God knows you don't want to find yourself here again.

Keep us posted please.
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/28/12 01:45 AM
Navy
We are happy for you really, you two will finally have the reasons you need to truly change. Your W is effectively killing the goose the lays the golden eggs, she seriously needs to learn that lesson. If she doesn't well she never would have been a good W then and good riddance.

I think for you it's important to learn that you can give 1000% and still not get even 1% of what you gave.

Here's a little game theory example that worked wonders for me.

Ok so you have 2 prisoners, if neither confesses most likely both will get set free since there won't be enough evidence. If one confesses then he gets a light sentence and the other goes away for life, and vice versa. If both confess they both get medium sentences.

In this scenario it seems that it is in the best interest of both to tell on each other, if you try to play nice and keep your mouth shut you'll most likely lose out, because the other will most likely take the plea deal.

Ok so what does this have to do with marriage?

You can be nice to each other, or you can be jerks.

You can both be nice, and you get marital bliss.

Or you can both be jerks and hate your lives but most likely divorce.

Or (as is your situation) one can be nice, and the other a jerk. In this case the jerk wins because they get love and affection in exchange for nothing.

Ok now imagine this game is played millions of times in a marriage. Its called adding repetition. Navy, you've been losing out big time.

Ok so we know there will be repetition, and in the last game you were nice and your W was mean. She took advantage of you.

It is in your interest for the next time you "play" to NOT be nice. So if she is mean you in turn be mean (within boundaries of course). Let her know that when she plays nice you will be nice.

See in the past whenever she was mean she'd get nice so she had no incentive to change, so if you are "not nice" her mean will not get rewarded but rather punished.

On the other hand if she is nice, then next you return with nice, so she is rewarded and encouraged.

She now has an incentive to be nice because mean got her nothing, and nice got her everything.

In a nutshell nice guys get taken advantage of.

Now I realize it may be to late for your W, but hearing that your ex was also terrible shows that the common denominator is YOU. Consider changing it up in your future dealings with your W and other women.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/28/12 12:46 PM
Navy,

I'm as pro-marrige as anyone, but "good riddance," I say. You've given this your best shot -- hell, to a fault at times, if you'd listened to hardasses like me sometimes smirk -- and your wife has shown no change in her destructive behavior, and in fact has gotten worse.

"Hitting bottom" is the ONLY chance she has of saving herself, in my opinion. There comes a time when you have to save yourself, first, and I believe this is now one of those times.

Starsky
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/29/12 12:18 AM
Navy,

I'm with Starsky on this.

IF she wakes up, it's ONLY going to be b/c you moved on. And even then, I doubt it would happen very quickly, based on her history.

But it might happen - and if it does, we can all support the restoration of your marriage if that's what YOU want.

And if it doesn't, then you'll know you've given this your real true most patient best. Your choices are few. And please, please

think about this-


Sometimes, "trying again" and "staying on..."

is a form of giving up.
It's giving up on yourself and a happier future b/c at some level you are more comfortable with a miserable present day life

then a future of the unknown.

I believe with all my heart that a man like you on his own, will heal and then will look for love in a healthy woman, &

will be a lot happier eventually, than a man in your shoes now, just taking it, day after day - w/no change likely EVER.

And your kids matter too.

What are they learning by witnessing this nasty loveless marriage?


What else could you teach them instead?

Just Think about it.

((( )))
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/29/12 04:32 AM
Navy
25 and Starsky gave me the same advice less than a year ago. It's good advice it really is. That being said I didn't take it. At least not 100%

Here's what I did:

I opened all the doors, let her know she was free to leave, that I wasn't going to chase her once she did.

I slowly and systematically let her know what my unnegotiables are, held fast to them.

In essence I slowly and consistently held her to task, and let her know she was free to walk if she disagreed.

So far the results have been encouraging.

The path has been hell. Lots of sleepless nights, when you think you finally pushed too hard and she will leave tomorrow.

But the point is you have to push, and every time you push it'll feel like she will leave, heck she may even do it, and that's not bad. What type of woman is she if she leaves for you demanding respect?

The saying it's always darkest before dawn holds true here. It may get real ugly she may say and do some pretty mean things. If you hold on to yourself she'll realize she can't stay and treat you like she does.
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/29/12 04:42 AM
For the record I agree with 25 and Starsky.

It's time for you to open the door out for her, we differ in the pace of how fast. That's not to say they are wrong and I am right.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/29/12 07:36 AM
Originally Posted By: greenblue90
Navy
25 and Starsky gave me the same advice less than a year ago. It's good advice it really is. That being said I didn't take it. At least not 100%

GB, you know, this ^^^ rendition of factss varies so much from mine BUT truly it does not bother me, and I'm NOT angry, okay GB? It's a little funny b/c it's soooo NOT how I recall that exchange.

I know I never told you to give up or to leave your wife.


I thought your "rules of engagement" (my choice of words, hope they don't offend) were structured for failure to start with.

I never bought into your open marriage concept and did not think it could work
I have heard and seen ONE marriage do it and lasted quite a few years, but there were kids to bond them. They were both very secure in their relationship and their sexuality and they got along well in all other areas.

Still, eventually, one of them "Fell in love" with a lover and left the spouse. It was the wife who left. Only on TV have I "seen" it work.

I never believed an open marriage would work or last w/you or your wife.

WAY too many sexual issues existed within your marriage to invite others into it, or so I felt then. Plus her anger and her quasi medical reasons/conditions or excuses (I don't know which, honestly) for no contact...

I recall you saying She's cut you off for "any reason or for no reason" and,

off the top of my head, I don't know if I ever heard of that much sexual manipulation, or using it as a weapon to the extent your w did. Plus she was just mean to you at times.

If I recall correctly, she flat out told you she wasn't attracted to you. I have to hand it to you, Those are harsh words to ever hear in a marriage. (and I think they're off limits. NO ONE ever needs to say that).

Despite the hardships we have faced - that's one of those "too deep for me to heal from" wounds, so I'd have not been able to hang in there. That's JUST ME and my stuff, but hey, more power to you if you can work thru that.

& I Don't know about how things are now...

ANYHOW I never saw that specific issue as being similar in this marriage of Navy's (though his m too, lacks intimacy).

What hits me as most similar is the abuse both women give/gave to their spouses and


from the way you two describe your own behavior, which is probably biased-you're human-

but you both sound reasonably objective when you post here,

so the abuse was just NOT understandable or okay or acceptable then or now.
Or ever. Both wives seemed to believe you h's had unlimited patience and that in a way, since THEY were in pain, you were acceptable scapegoats.

I don't know where or how they learned that, but there's no chance of them UNlearning it by you still accepting it.

How to make it stop? since you only control YOU, that means YOU cannot change THEM

so you may not be able to make them stop, so THEN,

you have to go. They need to KNOW you will leave, for good

if they don't shape up. For some, ONLY ACTUALLY LEAVING or inviting THEM TO GO (Navy I hope that's the choice you make b/c your wife is too depressed and alcoholic to get custody...you need to get it)

Or you can live with an unacceptable level of anger, & ugly behavior directed towards you the rest of your life...

Here's what I did:

I opened all the doors, let her know she was free to leave, that I wasn't going to chase her once she did.


GB, How is this ^^ different from our advice? (He has children, bear in mind). Seems like what Starsky and I are saying.

Except I believe she'll bolt and stay gone for awhile whereas your w has no legit means of support outside of you. But if Navy's wife leaves him for now, so be it.


I slowly and systematically let her know what my unnegotiables are, held fast to them.

How did you "hold fast to them"?

Did you leave when she did them?

OR somehow did she never ever break any of your non negotiables again?

This is the meat of it.


In essence I slowly and consistently held her to task, and let her know she was free to walk if she disagreed.

So far the results have been encouraging.

The path has been hell. Lots of sleepless nights, when you think you finally pushed too hard and she will leave tomorrow.

But the point is you have to push, and every time you push it'll feel like she will leave, heck she may even do it, and that's not bad. What type of woman is she if she leaves for you demanding respect?

good question



The saying it's always darkest before dawn holds true here. It may get real ugly she may say and do some pretty mean things. If you hold on to yourself she'll realize she can't stay and treat you like she does.



I don't know what "she'll realize" but the fact MUST be, that "she can't stay AND treat you like she does."

Are you ready to demonstrate that Navy?
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/29/12 01:38 PM
Originally Posted By: greenblue90
Navy
25 and Starsky gave me the same advice less than a year ago. It's good advice it really is. That being said I didn't take it. At least not 100%

Here's what I did:

I opened all the doors, let her know she was free to leave, that I wasn't going to chase her once she did.

I slowly and systematically let her know what my unnegotiables are, held fast to them.

In essence I slowly and consistently held her to task, and let her know she was free to walk if she disagreed.

So far the results have been encouraging.

The path has been hell. Lots of sleepless nights, when you think you finally pushed too hard and she will leave tomorrow.

But the point is you have to push, and every time you push it'll feel like she will leave, heck she may even do it, and that's not bad. What type of woman is she if she leaves for you demanding respect?



What type of woman is she if you have to do all of that, to get her to stay? confused

"Never treat someone as a priority, who makes you an option."


Starsky
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/29/12 02:27 PM
Hey 25
Not sure if you saw it but I put in a quick update of the sitch on page 7 of this thread. One of my non-negotiables was that the whole open thing had to stop. Also sex been used as a weapon had to stop too. I made it very clear that she was not going to treat me that way and if she didn't like it the door was open. She almost walked through it a few times. Those were pretty painful times.

Respect is now my #1 thing, and she knows it. It's also been the foundation for all the positive things in our relationship.
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/29/12 02:34 PM
I guess my approach was the boiled frog approach.

"you can drop a live frog in a hot pot of water and it'll instantly jump out, or you can put it in cold pot of water and slowly raise the heat until it slowly boils to death"

Based on her state if you demand a lot she'll most likely leave, I pieced out my non-negotiables over time. It makes them seem less overwhelming, and you can build upon your successes.
Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/29/12 05:03 PM
Navy,

Lots of people telling you what to do.

Ultimately; what do you want in regard to your relationship with your wife?
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/29/12 06:07 PM
just to be clear,

When I advise Navy to "move on", it's with the sincere desire that it wakes his wife up.

I want things to work out for them, but they have not. He's pulled his weight and hers, for a long time now. Nothing has improved, and a certain deterioration has evolved. Now she also drinks too much, and the kids get to see that, too. I assume she'll blame Navy for "the stress of marriage to him" what with him being kind to her, doing the bulk of the housework and childcare and paying the bills...how difficult for her.

( hey, I AM the wife of a man who's going off to the middle east soon, and as tough as it will be on me and the kids, trust me when I say, I do NOT complain to him or hold it against him...though I do like hearing the words "thank you" a lot lately.)

If his moving on (in whatever form it takes) does wake her up, we'll all jump on board to help him in Piecing.

But my gut says it'd take her a long LONG time to tell Navy she'd blown it, due to the fact that she's convinced herself that Navy is responsible for her self induced misery AND b/c of her stubborn pride.


So if she doesn't wake up after he moves on, it's my opinion that she never would have anyhow. ---So---

The sooner he is in a healthier life situation, the better for him and his kids.

In sum, yes I see that it's pretty much like an ultimatum, yes. AND If Navy's ready for it, I say okay. Honestly, how can it make things worse? What is she going to do? Say mean things to him? She already does. File for divorce? She already says she wants to and will eventually, except for the kids - which I no longer buy as her excuse for not leaving--

b/c 1) I think she wants HIM to file or leave so she isn't the responsible party b/c she's GREAT at avoiding any and all accountability

and 2)

she's not exactly mom of the year lately. So I'm cynically suggesting she's in the marriage for the money, a roof over her head and tuition bills being paid, and she's biding her time before leaving, at HER convenience.

Even if Navy still wants the m, and I think part of you does, Navy,

I see this as the only thing you have not really tried. Am I missing something?


Navy - as Jack3 says, you need to do what YOU want to do. Choosing the course of action is the tough part-I know,

but Your options APPEAR to be dwindling...

And we all must play the cards we are dealt.

I'll respect your choices and support them as best I can. I think we all would.

((( )))
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/29/12 06:16 PM
Yep.
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/30/12 04:27 PM
Hey everyone. Here’s my long overdue update.

As I said before, W’s parents are in town this week, and after they leave I plan to clearly state to W that I am not willing to live like this anymore. I will give her the choice of actively working on our marriage (going to counseling for herself and us), or ending it. Limbo time is over.

I owe you all a lot of answers to questions you’ve asked recently, so I’m going to group them all by person.

Starting w/ 25:

You asked What do YOU think it'll take for HER to get the message that my days with her are numbered?
Over the past month, I have been very distant from W, and she has noticed that. Her actions continue to show me that I am about the lowest possible priority of all people and things in her life. I have not been nice to her and have told her 3 times in the last month that I am tired of living this way and that this is no way for anyone to live. She continues to interpret that as an attack on her – me telling her that she is a bad person for not loving me. Basically, she is not listening to me at all, and jumping to conclusions before I even speak. Anyways, she is now fully aware of my discontent and unwillingness to continue this way, and I am fairly sure she is expecting me to tell her I am done with her. Once I tell her next week of her choice she has to make, she will have the message crystal clear. I will not let her give me lip service and tell me she wants to work on this and then do nothing. She will have to take visible action and show visible progress. I will not put up with the bones I have been thrown for the past year and a half anymore. You mentioned an EE workshop. What is that?

You said that the main thing she has to realize, which she does NOT yet know, is that you are a fine, lovable/loving man who deserves better treatment--AND that you WILL GET BETTER TREATMENT whether from her or someone else, b/c Navy, there are women out there who want to love and be loved.

I'm so sorry to say this but, Evidently, Your w is NOT one of them, (when it comes to YOU), at least for now...and what's worse, is that she shows no signs of wanting to love or be loved by you.


I couldn’t agree more. It’s funny. One of the things she ALWAYS brings up when we get into our “talks” is that I once called her a martyr. Maybe it was something I said in the heat of battle…but boy, was I ever right. (Not that I’ll ever point that out to her again though)  I am sick of living this miserable life and I just want to be happy. I want W to be happy too, but that’s going to be up to her.

You asked: Navy, do you believe, down deep, that you are a man another woman could love?

Did you date much before w?

I know you are in good shape, and I uniforms flatter all men...but are you --attractive? You clearly are smart and into being a dad. Those are very attractive traits...so, what is up with this insecurity of yours that I sense? Is it just fear of the unknown of bad past experiences? IF it's the latter, maybe you dated other high maintenance or nasty or unhealthy women..

in which case you can learn Not to do that again...


I know that I am a man another woman could love. And I strongly believe that I will be a great husband to her. And I think that a lot of the reason I think that is because of my sitch and my DB experience. I have learned so much. I know I had some flaws, and I probably still do – but that is ok. Someone that truly loves me will be willing to work through those with me, instead of letting them fester until they are “done”. I did not date much before W. A couple very short (< 1 month) relationships was it. The girl I chased for years in college and I were never officially together. There are a lot of parallels between that R and my M (mostly that I was being used and taken advantage of, and giving 1000x more love than I got back). I think the college R did scar me a bit (i.e. insecurity), and I jumped in feet first with the first woman that I met afterwards. I had found someone that liked me, and I was scared to death that I would lose her…fear controlled my actions. I don’t think that W was a mistake, but I do think I chose to ignore some major red flags early in our R/M as a result of my fear of not being able to find anyone else. I think I am in a good place in order to avoid repeating this sitch – but if things do end with W, I will definitely be doing some more IC and that will be near the top of my list on things to discuss (probably right below taking care of my kids and making sure I am staying mentally healthy).

For Mother’s Day, I got W a card from each of the kids and a little “mom’s coupon book” that has stuff the kids and I can do for her. So far she hasn’t redeemed a single ticket.

You said “you are more comfortable with a miserable present day life then a future of the unknown”.

Bingo. Paralyzed by fear of the (mostly) unknown. The reason I put “mostly” in there is that I know the negative effects a D will have on our kids. While there may be some positives down the road (them seeing a healthy M), there will certainly be some pain (mostly short-term, some long-term) for them associated with a D.

You said “she can't stay AND treat you like she does."

Couldn’t agree more. And when I talk to her about ending our M, I will be inviting her to leave. I absolutely will not allow her to take the kids and go back to Colorado. If she wants to go there alone, that is fine. And if she won’t leave (a very real possibility, as she won’t want to get her own place in Virginia and won’t want to be that far away from the kids) I am probably stuck with her for at least another year (1-year wait for D in Virginia) before we have any kind of resolution.

In sum, yes I see that it's pretty much like an ultimatum, yes. AND If Navy's ready for it, I say okay. Honestly, how can it make things worse? What is she going to do? Say mean things to him? She already does. File for divorce? She already says she wants to and will eventually, except for the kids - which I no longer buy as her excuse for not leaving--

b/c 1) I think she wants HIM to file or leave so she isn't the responsible party b/c she's GREAT at avoiding any and all accountability

and 2) she's not exactly mom of the year lately. So I'm cynically suggesting she's in the marriage for the money, a roof over her head and tuition bills being paid, and she's biding her time before leaving, at HER convenience.

Even if Navy still wants the m, and I think part of you does, Navy,

I see this as the only thing you have not really tried. Am I missing something?


You are not missing a single thing. I have been worried that I am going to give her an ultimatum – but nothing else has worked. She keeps telling me she needs time. She’s had time, and she has done NOTHING to work on our M, except get horrible advice from her recently D’d friend. More on that in a second. She still says she is here just for the kids – I think that she honestly believes that, and thinks that is fair for all of us. Well, she’s wrong. I also think you are dead-on with your comment about her wanting me to be the “bad guy”. She doesn’t want to have to tell her friends and family that she left me – BECAUSE SHE DOESN”T HAVE A GOOD REASON FOR IT!!!!!

Well I have to run to a meeting here and I will get to everyone else’s posts tomorrow. I’m going to see the USA vs. Brazil soccer game tonight – really looking forward to that. Before I go, I wanted to run this by everyone. It’s a text message exchange between W and her recently D’d friend. Yes, I was looking at W’s phone. Oops, sorry. This exchange has happened in spurts over the last month, but started right before W went up to Ohio to attend friend’s dad’s funeral (who W had never met, it was just an excuse to go up there.) Here it goes:

W: Hey, thanks for all your advice and the paper work (D paperwork????). H has been really distant since our talk on my birthday. Maybe he understands now.

Friend: It’s gonna get scary and uncertain. Hang in there! Ur Welcome. I’m here when ya need me!

W: I try myself trying to bring him out of it, but I know I shouldn’t. It this is how he needs to be let go, then I shouldn’t try to change it. Thanks for being there for me.

Friend: Well u can tell him if needs to talk to seek an outsider that right now a part of you wants to be there as a friend because it’s who you are. In the future because he is the father of your children you’ll be able to vent and talk but it would be healthier for him to seek out someone else right now.

W: That is true and I keep telling myself to give him space, but I feel horrible doing that. Thanks, that’s great advice.

Friend: You’re gonna find it hard to find that balance and living your new “roles”. I still struggle. It’s normal and ok don’t feel horrible.


This “friend” has told me multiple times that she’s trying to help save our M. What a 2-faced (insert 4 or 5 letter word of your choosing here). I don’t think it’s a coincidence that our real M problems started about the same time she met this “friend. Here’s one more little convo between them:

W: So Tuesday I woke up feeling terrible and I went to the dr office with S3. Then some creepy guy tries to grab me while I’m getting lunch w/ S3. Then that night, H spent what felt like about 2 hours telling me what a disappointment I am and he can’t understand why I came back to make myself miserable. I didn’t say anything while he nicely put me down and told me how miserable he is.

Friend: Breathe!!! Pick one happy moment in your day or the past week and focus on only that! It will carry you through all these feelings you are experiencing. I’m so sorry sweetie. I COMPLETELY understand. FYI. You are NOT horrible. You are the bestest friend and person I know! Love you.


What absolute crap. Apparently “friend” thinks she knows our sitch inside and out. She is taking what she has been through (getting left for another woman by her repeat-offender cheating husband) and telling my W she’s going through the same thing!!! And I’m sure thinking about a rainbow whenever you’re feeling bad really helps fix your problems. She has been feeding my W this crap for the past 5 years. Not sure that there’s much I can do about it at this point…but what a horrible horrible person.

Well, off to my meeting. More to follow.
Posted By: MrBond Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/30/12 04:41 PM
Have you thought of telling your in laws about your W's drinking problem? Maybe they can arrange an intervention without you.

In the case of your W, the ultimatum won't work. Especially due to the controlled substance abuse she's going through.
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/30/12 08:46 PM
Bond - what do you mean by "won't work"?
Posted By: MrBond Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/30/12 08:51 PM
Your ultimatum.

It really sounds like your W is one of those WASs who has to hit absolute rock bottom before she can turn her life around. It's fairly obvious from her drinking problem that the problem isn't you or the M. There's something eating away at her and when you try to engage, that's when she pushes you away.

Have you looked into AA? Try looking up the traits of an alcoholic or read some of the posts from the people here who were alcoholic. They all said they pretty much treated people and their spouses like your W is. However, once the spouse said they had enough and just left (no ultimatum), that's when they started waking up.

Don't offer her a choice. She will just go against it anyway based on history. When she starts calling you names, etc., just tell her straight up that you're not interested in listening to a drunk. Give her a dose of reality and at the same time establish your independence.
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/31/12 06:33 PM
Bond - I have read up on alcoholism and depression, and the traits match. But...I don't think she's totally out of control. She's definitely cut way back while her parents have been here. I don't think they'd be very helpful in an intervention scenario. W would deny it and they'd take her side.

I see your point with the ultimatum - but I don't want to be the one that leaves, and I don't think I can "kick her out" - how else could I make it work?
Posted By: MrBond Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 05/31/12 06:59 PM
"I have read up on alcoholism and depression,"

Rather than reading about it, talk to someone about it. That will give you better insight. Your W hiding it when your in-laws are there is typical. And besides, cutting back doesn't mean that she's cured.

You don't have to be the one that leaves. Just tell her what you are planning to do. What is your plan?
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/01/12 12:58 AM
Navy
My W has some serious depression issues too; I too struggle with "kicking her to the curb"

All I have to say is that there is a different path, but it's long, even more painful for you. It also is not guaranteed.

Like I said before. Pick something she does you don't like it and put a stop to it, let her know you will not tolerate it. (I'd start with the way she talks to you, especially in front of the kids). Then incrementally up the ante.

Just like me I bet you're scared that if you dump your entire list of grievances she'll run. She probabably will.

Instead have her think "am I willing to leave over this little thing?"
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/05/12 06:35 AM
Originally Posted By: greenblue90
Navy
My W has some serious depression issues too; I too struggle with "kicking her to the curb"

All I have to say is that there is a different path, but it's long, even more painful for you. It also is not guaranteed.

I still don't get this ^^ GB...Navy wants out- (or if a miracle happens, then for his wife to wake up.)

HE does not expect her to wake up. I don't think anything he does IN the marriage has made a difference and won't now, imo.

He wants to be happy, he's ready to move on to make that happen. What else is he supposed to endure, and for what?

And your advice about upping the ante and "showing her" means what? I'm sorry I don't get it. What, specifically do you think HE is supposed to DO to wake her up? IF suggesting that one of them leave is your advice to him, isn't that the same thing we are telling him?


Why should he be "upping the ante" now, when he's already at the end of the rope? HE's been here for YEARS not months...


Like I said before. Pick something she does you don't like it and put a stop to it, let her know you will not tolerate it. (I'd start with the way she talks to you, especially in front of the kids). Then incrementally up the ante.

No offense but this^^^ just utterly vague. And what do you think Navy has been doing the past 3 YEARS? Not months...years.

Sure, he tried the patient approach and giving her space. Didn't work. We assumed she'd get treated for her depression but she's a miserable person who lets someone else project THEIR situation onto her and she buys into the whole "She is a victim" mindset that prevents her from having real insight and any change.

Then some time ago Navy began telling her not to talk to him like that and began to assert himself but she's not changing her tune.
So telling him to "let her know you will not tolerate it" - uh, Means WHAT?

and "incrementally up the ante" also, means WHAT at this point? Specifically, please...

I see Navy as making real progress and you are advising him as if something novel is being suggested but it's vague and not all that different than what he was told months ago.

To me, this advice isn't new, but it could derail him just as he is making some real decisions about forward movement.


Just like me I bet you're scared that if you dump your entire list of grievances she'll run. She probabably will.


I don't think Navy is in that^^ situation GB, I think he's no longer afraid of her running as much as he fears staying in an untenable situation.

As for a grievance list...well, imo, there are few non negotiables in a marriage but his wife has pretty much hit nearly all of them (minus OM).

In any event, I don't see a role for a grievance list in a happy marriage. Having one at all is usually a deathknell for marriage. But since It's a tangent, I'll move on.



Instead have her think "am I willing to leave over this little thing?"


Navy, the other comment I was going to address was Bond's. If I understand Bond's advice, maybe attending an al anon meeting could help.
IT is a lot more helpful than reading about the topic.

However-
I don't see her drinking as "the straw that broke" your back maritally speaking, so much as

being the reason you no longer see "Staying for the kids" as holding much appeal anymore. I mean, IF she's going to drink a lot, how is sticking it out good FOR the kids? It's not.

If you were to decide to "stick it out" some more, the drinking around the kids would be the minimum requirement you set, but even as I write that I know that

"getting her to stop" drinking...is a lot like saying you may as well "get her to be nice" to you.

In other words, you don't have any control over that.

All you get do control is you and your reaction. But you knew that already.

So, Is this accurate?

I think you're onto something about the friend - but the friend MAY think she's trying to ease the blow and that's her way of helping.

As for the discussions you have w/w, I'd be VERY brief with your w. Keep it all about the kids

b/c from what her friend said,

your w believes you two have had LONG conversations about the R and she thinks YOU were complaining to her about your misery, (per the friend's take on it)

it does mean you are taking too long in the discussions. Be the one to end them too.

Be a lot briefer. Brevity in speech, the economy of words, often makes them more powerful.

Good luck.
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/06/12 10:35 PM
I think it's up to navy to tell us, but I the impression he is still very afraid. I don't blame him either it is very hard to walk away. Furthermore it has been my experience from this boards and from myself that whenever there is a respect problem incrementally standing up for yourself can change a dynamic over time.

As for specific examples I can't say since I'm not Navy, but I can relate my own.

My W used to explode over the littlest things. I made it clear that doing that not only would not work in getting me to do things, but it bothered ME and I would not tolerate it.

I promised her I'd do my best to do things like turn off lights, but if I slipped she had no right to lose her temper to the intensity that she did.

Whenever I'd slip up and she'd lose her temper I'd just calmly look at her and say "if you're going to talk to me like this, I'm not going to do it"

On the other hand if she went about things nicely I'd make sure to go out of my way to do things well for her.

When she blamed me for things I would tell her that I was sorry she felt that way, but if she was so unhappy the door was open.

If she stayed, but remained angry with me, I would in the gentlest way possible tell her I care about her and want her to stay, but it she is so miserable, maybe she should leave.

I think for my W she felt trapped by me and the marriage. I have worked hard to make it clear to her that she indeed does have a choice, but if she chooses me she can't blame me for everything.
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/10/12 03:17 AM
Ugh....still really struggling with how I am going to tell W I'm done living like this....and she just keeps going downhill. This is just so miserable. She went through a box (3L) of wine in the last 2 days. Started drinking at 3pm both days. I know this has to stop...but I also think she's just acting this way until I break and become the bad guy. How do I end this and have her understand that it's her unwillingness to move forward that has brought us to this point??
Posted By: StubbornDyke Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/10/12 12:01 PM
Conscious or not, the "inability to understand" what the other person is saying is a killer controlling maneuver. Think about it. If you're unwilling to do X unless she understands why, then all she has to do to prevent it is not understand.

Your W may be beyond the point where she can will herself to change her drinking behavior. It may be that the best thing you can do for her is to allow her to hit bottom (i.e. allow her to get into enough pain that she breaks out of denial and sees the harmful consequences of her behavior). You can't make any of that happen, you can only let go of trying to prevent it.

At some point along the way, I learned that it is pointless to try to talk with someone who is drinking (or using, or whatever). They are under the influence and they are not "present" for any conversation, so don't waste your breath.

Hang in there.(())
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/10/12 01:52 PM
Navy
Part of what allows an addict to justify their choices is being able to blame someone else. She will never "understand". Not until you are out of the picture for her to blame, and even then she may still never get it.

My concern is why are you so afraid of being seen as the "bad guy"? It's not like she doesn't already blame you for all her misfortune. Just look at her in the eyes and tell her. I can tell you are not happy so I'm going to give you the best presen I can give you: your Freedom.

More importantly why are YOU so afraid of being the bad guy. You know over in Afghanistan the Taliban calls us the bad guys. By your logic we need to stop combat operations, until they realize THEY are the bad guys we're not. Until then we are to just take it up the chin.

Come on man, you know better than this. Think of it as giving out well deserved UCMJ, you're not going to hold back because the guy refuses to admit he's wrong.

Most importantly just ask yourself why are YOU so afraid of being the bad guy.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/10/12 01:54 PM
Originally Posted By: greenblue90
Navy
Part of what allows an addict to justify their choices is being able to blame someone else. She will never "understand". Not until you are out of the picture for her to blame, and even then she may still never get it.

My concern is why are you so afraid of being seen as the "bad guy"? It's not like she doesn't already blame you for all her misfortune. Just look at her in the eyes and tell her. I can tell you are not happy so I'm going to give you the best presen I can give you: your Freedom.

More importantly why are YOU so afraid of being the bad guy. You know over in Afghanistan the Taliban calls us the bad guys. By your logic we need to stop combat operations, until they realize THEY are the bad guys we're not. Until then we are to just take it up the chin.

Come on man, you know better than this. Think of it as giving out well deserved UCMJ, you're not going to hold back because the guy refuses to admit he's wrong.

Most importantly just ask yourself why are YOU so afraid of being the bad guy.



whistle whistle whistle whistle


Starsky
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/11/12 04:03 AM
Well everyone...thanks for the support and advice. I just laid things out for W...I picked pieces from all the posts here and I think it went about as well as it possibly could have (well, short of her telling me that she loves me and wants to work on building a wonderful marriage).

This thread has now come full circle...I have been given crown and miter over myself - thanks to you all. I will post details on tonight's events sometime soon...I need to get some sleep now.
Posted By: Redo Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/11/12 04:48 PM
Hi Navy:

I hope everything goes okay for you. You been on this miserable road for too long. Just remember couple of things.

1: Be true to yourself. If you find yourself doing something against your element, then question it and dont be afraid to stand up for what you believe in.

2: Remember that freedom begins by saying 'No'
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/12/12 05:14 AM
The first steps are always the hardest. It gets easier I promise.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/12/12 09:04 AM
we're here for you and we believe in you.

I think we know you. You're not the bad guy. You never will be.

That comment^^^ Doesn't mean a thing about your wife, good or bad. She's not "our" issue or focus. You are.

This is about you, your growth, purpose and YOUR Journey.

You are one of the very good ones.

Stay strong, be brave, & act w/honor. Then leave the results up to God.


No one can ask for or expect more. (So Don't let them).

((( )))
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/12/12 02:06 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
we're here for you and we believe in you.

I think we know you. You're not the bad guy. You never will be.

That comment^^^ Doesn't mean a thing about your wife, good or bad. She's not "our" issue or focus. You are.

This is about you, your growth, purpose and YOUR Journey.

You are one of the very good ones.

Stay strong, be brave, & act w/honor. Then leave the results up to God.


No one can ask for or expect more. (So Don't let them).

((( )))



whistle whistle whistle whistle


Starsky
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/12/12 08:50 PM
Hey everyone. Pretty busy at work today but wanted to get a semi-quick summary of what happened Sunday night posted up here.

W was again sitting by herself outside on the deck, smoking and drinking wine. I went outside and told her I needed to talk to her. I told her that I am concerned about her drinking, for her, for me, and for our kids.

I then told her that it feels like she is drinking so she can "put up with being around me". She concurred.

I told her that I will not live with someone that has to drink just to be around me and that I never in a million years imagined that someone would need to do so. I then used an analogy of me being someone's boss and them feeling like they had to drink so they could come to work. I think that helped her see that maybe I'm not the problem here. I dunno.

She responded with telling me she feels like I expect so much of her and that she feels judged. I told her that I think my expectations of her are next to nothing, and defintiely far less than a typical marriage. I also pointed out that I hadn't said a single thing about her in this convo, I was only telling her how I feel and what I am no longer willing to tolerate.

Then I told her I am "in the place" (using her favorite term) where I will not live like this anymore. If I am that bad of a person that she needs to be drunk and put on an act of pseudo-happiness just to be around me, I don't want to be with her. She is free to leave.

Then she tried going down the road of our past and all the horrible things I did to her. I stopped her before she got very far and said I have owned and fixed those things, and I can't do anything more about that than I already have. I then went back to telling her I am not willing to accept her current behavior.

Then she said she didn't know what it would "look like" if we split up and how we could make it work. I told her I hadn't really thought about it much, because I have always believed our marriage could be saved.

Then I speculated a bit on what it would be - we would have to have separate places to live (probably crummy apartments for awhile), she would have to get a job, and we would have to figure out some sort of custody arrangement with the kids. And I said it without fear. I acknowledged that it would be hard and painful, but that I think it would better than our current life.

I told her that I don't want to go down that road, but right now it is more appealing to me than continuing like this. I don't want to be a part-time dad, but I am not willing to subject myself and my kids to this life anymore.

The convo went on for awhile longer, but I stuck to my guns regarding her behavior and letting her know that I am no longer afraid of divorce.

I told her I don't need or expect a response right now, but just wanted to let her know where I am at. I ended the convo there, and went to bed.

I know this fell short of me telling her that I'm completely "done", but I think she got the message and knows that the clock's ticking...
Posted By: MrBond Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/12/12 09:21 PM
Overall that was a good conversation, although I don't know why you pinpointed you as being the reason for her drinking. YOU don't make her drink and it's definitely not just your R that is causing her to drink.

However when you said that, it gave her a reason to blame you for her unhappiness when in the end it really isn't you.
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/12/12 10:22 PM
Navy
I think you did great. From here give her lots of space and and time. She must be an emotional wreck right now, so don't expect a proper response. You don't want her making large decisions on anger, or depression. That being said here is what I expect.

Expect her to stall, I still don't think she wants to leave the m. She needs to be able to escapegoat you, so she can avoid facing her own demons. So expect her to stall. If she was being resentful, expect outright belligerence. This because she wants to make you the bad guy, again to avoid personal responsibility. She could also try to call your bluff by making a lot of noise about divorce but not actually following through. I recommend you talk to JAG, maybe even get a "divorce packet".

The key I think will be to be as civil as possible and remind her that her actions have pushed you to this. Here is your mantra.

"I'm not pursuing this because I hate you, I actually want to work things out. I'm just don't think I can make you happy, so I'm giving you your freedom. "

If she gets angry just calmly tell her: "see I bring out the worst in you, I don't want to live with someone that dislikes me this much".

It's important that you yourself do not get emotionally embroiled, although she'll try do drag you down. As I was told don't jump in the pit with her. If she decides to throw herself in let her, and don't go after her. Also do not offer unsolicited help to get her out. Let her learn how to get herself out of the pit (handle her own emotions).

Don't press her for an answer, but be available to talk. If after about 2 weeks you don't hear from her, hand her the divorce packet. Prefill your stuff. It's important she realizes you are not going to play indecisive WAS games indefinitely like her.

If you are lucky somewhere along the way (preferably before the D) she'll snap out and say "what the heck am I doing?! I'm about to completely ruin this" and turn around. If not keep going forward, it's for the best.
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/12/12 10:25 PM
Oh btw kudos on how you handled her attempts to use the past to demonize you. That's the narrative you should stick to:

"I may have been wrong, and I'm sorry, but I've done everything I can to make it up to you. If this isn't enough than maybe it will never be, so you should just go now."
Posted By: vera be fierce Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/12/12 11:06 PM
Navy I think you did a great job handling that conversation, I'm sure it wasn't easy getting yourself up to do it or in the moment.
Posted By: LostIn407 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/12/12 11:44 PM
"I'm not pursuing this because I hate you, I actually want to work things out. I'm just don't think I can make you happy, so I'm giving you your freedom. "

I really like that. I think I am going to steal it when/if I have to tell my W I am done and filing. I never knew what I would say, now I do. Thanks.
Posted By: greenblue90 Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/13/12 12:38 AM
Lost
No need to thank me, the phrase has served me well. Often WAW's need to demonize their spouse to justify their actions. It's important to hold on to yourself. I mean she will still dig deep to make you the bad guy, but it shouldn't be cause you caused it.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/13/12 09:16 AM
Originally Posted By: Navyguy
Hey everyone. Pretty busy at work today but wanted to get a semi-quick summary of what happened Sunday night posted up here.

W was again sitting by herself outside on the deck, smoking and drinking wine. I went outside and told her I needed to talk to her. I told her that I am concerned about her drinking, for her, for me, and for our kids.

I then told her that it feels like she is drinking so she can "put up with being around me". She concurred.

GEE, too bad she can't possibly learn a new coping skill (other than booze) for the PAIN of being around a decent man who, by his nature, highlights HER shortcomings...good grief...


I told her that I will not live with someone that has to drink just to be around me and that I never in a million years imagined that someone would need to do so. I then used an analogy of me being someone's boss and them feeling like they had to drink so they could come to work. I think that helped her see that maybe I'm not the problem here. I dunno.

She responded with telling me she feels like I expect so much of her and that she feels judged. I told her that I think my expectations of her are next to nothing, and defintiely far less than a typical marriage. I also pointed out that I hadn't said a single thing about her in this convo, I was only telling her how I feel and what I am no longer willing to tolerate.

Then I told her I am "in the place" (using her favorite term) where I will not live like this anymore. If I am that bad of a person that she needs to be drunk and put on an act of pseudo-happiness just to be around me, I don't want to be with her. She is free to leave.

Then she tried going down the road of our past and all the horrible things I did to her. I stopped her before she got very far


BLESS YOU for doing that!^^^ It serves you and HER well! THIS IS HUGE!!



and said I have owned and fixed those things, and I can't do anything more about that than I already have.

CRUCIAL TO POINT OUT, REPEATEDLY...she does NOT get it. If you are already working on your issues and problems then they are no longer real problems...b/c they are being worked on!

Sounds simple but it's true!

If you identify a problem & are working to solve it, then move on to the NEXT issue b/c the first problem is already identified and being worked on...but some folks, well, they like staying stuck on the problem you USED to have...

Way to go Navy, way to go....

I then went back to telling her I am not willing to accept her current behavior.

Then she said she didn't know what it would "look like" if we split up and how we could make it work. I told her I hadn't really thought about it much, because I have always believed our marriage could be saved.

Ideally - you'd stress that YOU had given thought to how much BETTER life would be, without HER nasty carping and constant belittling...but hey, we aren't in an ideal world...

my point is, so, she wants YOU to show HER how to treat you? B/c she does not know how to be kind????

I'm not sure you can. But maybe??

So, how do you teach an angry "victim" wife, how to be decent to her partner and co=parent husband?

Personally, and hey, I could be way wrong,

but I think she needs a workshop or counselling that goes beyond a weekly session of how or why she got here,

and more about how her PAST affects HER & YOU today...enough already about the past!

She needs a major shift in her paradigm or she'll keep mistreating you...

and that shift won't happen without a dramatic form of intervention or a life changing event,

which is why I suggested the weekend workshop. (Check out "Essential Experience" on the east coast for a great example of DBing in real life)

Enough about what happened TO HER in the past, and time to start focussing on what SHE IS DOING NOW...


Then I speculated a bit on what it would be - we would have to have separate places to live (probably crummy apartments for awhile), she would have to get a job, and we would have to figure out some sort of custody arrangement with the kids. And I said it without fear. I acknowledged that it would be hard and painful, but that I think it would better than our current life.


it would be better!!! How can it not be?

I told her that I don't want to go down that road, but right now it is more appealing to me than continuing like this. I don't want to be a part-time dad, but I am not willing to subject myself and my kids to this life anymore.

The convo went on for awhile longer, but I stuck to my guns regarding her behavior and letting her know that I am no longer afraid of divorce.

I told her I don't need or expect a response right now, but just wanted to let her know where I am at. I ended the convo there, and went to bed.

I know this fell short of me telling her that I'm completely "done", but I think she got the message and knows that the clock's ticking...


yeah we know, maybe you coulda said this or that, and no one is perfect.

But I think you did frickn' GREAT!!!!!


((((( )))))
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/13/12 05:28 PM
Bond, I was saying what a bad person I am in something of a facetious manner - maybe it didn't come across that way, I dunno.

So today there's more fun:

Ohio BFF is taking a vacation in North Carolina and decided she'd stop in DC for the night and stay at a friends' house and invited W to hang out with them.

This friend happens to be a guy who I don't know and I think W has only met once before a long time ago.

BFF first stopped at our house, so I saw her and her son. It was a bit awkward but I handled it pretty well. Then her and W left to go hang out at this guy's house. I figured W would be out late.

At midnight I get a text:

"Hey, I'm staying with BFF tonight. I'll be home before you have to leave from work."

I replied: Ok, is everything all right?

Her reply: Yeah, BFF wanted to hang out longer and I had a few glasses of wine and probably shouldn't drive. There is a futon in the basement I can use, so I'll have a sleepover with BFF and her son and come home in the morning.

I went to sleep.

W got home around 6 AM.

Ok, no big deal.

Then around 10:30 today, this guy posts on W's FB page:

"What's up? We are out to breakfast"

W replies: "wish I could have hung around for breakfast, sounds delightful! You guys have fun! I am watching cartoons and drawing some pictures."

Now W is obviously not trying to hide anything here...she knows I can see her FB page. I'd probably be more concerned if he had posted and she had quickly deleted it. But this seems pretty out of line to me...

I'm pretty sure W wouldn't appreciate me going out with a friend, spending the night at some random woman's house, and then her posting on my FB page the next morning and me replying in a very friendly/almost flirtacious manner.

So...do I talk to her about this? Tell her how this makes me feel? Or just wait and see if anything else happens? Or just tell myself F it and that I don't even care?
Posted By: MrBond Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/13/12 07:08 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb here.

Rather than being p@ssed off at her about it, how about being nice to her about it?

I'm not exactly sure where you feel insulted by what she did. She told you she was staying over with the friend and son and she told you when she'd be back. It's not like she stayed at the guy's house alone.

I think you're letting all the stress of the talk get to you. Right now she's looking at doing things that take her mind off of your sitch. Whether its drinking or hanging out with someone, it's what she's going to do. Confronting her about it isn't going to do any good.
Posted By: scaredsilly Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/13/12 08:34 PM
Just my opinion Navy but her reply didn't strike me as flirtatious. I know it's hard to read about her GAL but mr. Bond's advice seems right on.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/13/12 09:17 PM
yep both SS and Bond are spot on. Navy, I'm the last person who'll defend your w

but I didn't get any weirdness from her FB posts at all. Didn't sound flirtatious at all.

Watching cartoons/drawing pictures is NOT a sexual declaration, it's a mommy thing...if anything, she sounds domesticated in that post. I was a bit pleasantly surprised.

Plus, the guy (not the son, right?) posting on her page doesn't sound as if he had "been with" your wife physically. If he had been, there'd have been no curiousity about where she was or why she wasn't having breakfast with them, etc.

The whole issue of the sleep over might be a valid concern but you did say yes, and then
she covered it with the no drinking/driving story so that's not something you can really argue about if this is a once a year deal. (When I say "Covered it" I mean she covered her bases. From what you've said about her drinking, it's probably true that she had too much).

In sum, your wife has plenty of behaviors for you to object to, but Pick your battles wisely!
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/13/12 09:28 PM
Yeah, that is what I was leaning toward and wanted to check sure here before I did anything stupid. smile
Posted By: kolja Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/13/12 09:39 PM
Probably a good call - I certainly know it's hard to separate things like this from the broader context of what's going on your in your marriage; I definitely had the same problem back in October when things were certainly not great in ours and my wife was in Las Vegas with a few girlfriends of hers. With the way things were it was hard not to feel like it was more salt in the wound and I definitely reacted poorly - and publicly, and now rather wish I hadn't; it certainly gave her more things not to like when she made the decision she did. Certainly doesn't seem like a 'hill to die on' for me, and a good instance for 'studied underreaction' wink
Posted By: Navyguy Re: The Climb - Thread #6 - 06/13/12 10:13 PM
Lol 25 smile I wasn't worried about the cartoons and pictures...our entire house is covered with our kids' artwork. It was more that the guy who she just met felt the need to ask her "what's up". Just seems strange...but not her fault either.

And no, it's not the son...he's 9.

While I have drawn the line with the drinking, and it is very hard to understand why she seems to want to "end" our family, I do think that overall W is a good mother...and our kids love her very very much.
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