I have been reading the forum and have read DR but this is my first post. I really admire all of you and how caring and supportive you are of each other.
My wife and I became domestic partners in 2004 and married in 2008. We were best friends before we started dating. At the end of July 2011, she told me that she was unhappy and did not know if she wanted to work on things or not. I was totally shocked as I thought that we both felt that we were the luckiest people ever to have found each other.
She would not talk about anything for weeks and then started her own therapy which she quit pretty quickly. She was angry and critical of me and found something wrong with everything I did. I made many mistakes along the way, pursued, cried and begged too much, even at times after finding DR. She moved out at the end of October for some time apart, moved back in at the end of November to "work on things" but moved out again a week later and said that she wanted a divorce.
We saw each other a few times to talk about the divorce in January and she was always teary eyed and held onto me and kissed me on the neck once. She decided that she wanted to work on things again and we went out a few times over the space of 3 weeks and we went to therapy twice before she bailed again. Now she is moving halfway across the country in April (to where family and old friends are) and quit her job. She has been really impulsive and I am not sure if that is a sign of a mid-life crisis or more of a WAS trait?
I am doing my best to GAL (going to therapy, making new friends, new hobbies) but this is really really hard. I miss her so much and am so confused as to what happened. The only thing I noticed is that she seemed more critical of me this past year, but she also seemed more critical of everyone. In hindsight, I know there are things I could do to be a better spouse and am working hard in therapy but am so sad that she did not tell me something was wrong until it seemed way too late.
We are still trying to settle parts of the financial side of the divorce (she has not filed yet) and I am wondering how to DB in the midst of what can be such a contentious time. She is asking for $ and things which I feel are unfair and I am having trouble not getting upset at her attitude. I am trying to tell myself that she is just scared about making it on her own (I have always handled the finances.) Anyone else have suggestions on how to DB during this phase??
Thank you so much and all the best to you all.
Me: 51 W: 41
T: 10 M: 7
ILYBINILWY: 7/11
Moved out: 10/11
Moved back in: 11/11 moved out again and asked for divorce 7 days later
Wants to work on things: 1/12
Decision to move across country: 2/12
Welcome to the board.
She is asking for SPACE, give it to her.
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Wow, Cadet, I was just finished reading an old thread you were on about detachment and withdrawal in the MLC forum when your post showed up. It was such a great thread and even had an MLCer (Wonka) on it talking about his own experience. What a blessing that thread was to me today, thank you.
I will take your words to heart today and reread them often this week. Thank you for posting. I so wish my wife and I did not have to talk finances now because it can be so adversarial but she is pushing to get it done ASAP. Any hints to handle the talk of splitting things/$ wisely? I find myself feeling sorry for her and wanting to give her more, so I have not been making decisions while she is here, telling her I will think about things and get back to her. I really want to do this fairly and with integrity but am finding that our idea of fair is not similar. I have also bounced things off of some good financial minds to check myself. Any other ideas? Thank you for the help!
Me: 51 W: 41
T: 10 M: 7
ILYBINILWY: 7/11
Moved out: 10/11
Moved back in: 11/11 moved out again and asked for divorce 7 days later
Wants to work on things: 1/12
Decision to move across country: 2/12
DB it with a lawyer. Ignore all requests that are not reasonable. You do not have to reply to any request. Unless it is required by the courts.
It was such a great thread and even had an MLCer (Wonka) on it talking about his own experience.
Wonka is a woman!
I so wish my wife and I did not have to talk finances now because it can be so adversarial but she is pushing to get it done ASAP. Any hints to handle the talk of splitting things/$ wisely? I find myself feeling sorry for her and wanting to give her more, so I have not been making decisions while she is here, telling her I will think about things and get back to her. I really want to do this fairly and with integrity but am finding that our idea of fair is not similar. I have also bounced things off of some good financial minds to check myself.
Stand up for yourself and don't let her push you around.
If you found my threads on MLC then be sure to do all the homework on the one that I posted this morning.
That should keep you busy while your waiting for modration to end.
Too funny about my confusion about Wonka. Thanks, Cadet and Chatterbug for the kind advice. I appreciate it and will read your post from this morning, Cadet.
As part of my GALing adventures, I just bought a turntable and am collecting old albums. It is great fun to find them (like a treasure hunt) and listening to them brings back such memories, even the sound of the needle hitting the vinyl. I had Tina Turner live on the other day! She is amazing and I don't think she would be pushed around by any MLCer!!
Me: 51 W: 41
T: 10 M: 7
ILYBINILWY: 7/11
Moved out: 10/11
Moved back in: 11/11 moved out again and asked for divorce 7 days later
Wants to work on things: 1/12
Decision to move across country: 2/12
I see you found the thread there and my post.
Just curious are your posts showing up right away, if so then I guess you are not on moderation.
Keep posting.
Thanks, Cadet. Yes, today my posts starting showing up quickly.
On Sunday, my W is coming home to pack up some things as she moves out of state on April 12. I am confused as to if I should be here or leave. Any thoughts? Thank you!
Me: 51 W: 41
T: 10 M: 7
ILYBINILWY: 7/11
Moved out: 10/11
Moved back in: 11/11 moved out again and asked for divorce 7 days later
Wants to work on things: 1/12
Decision to move across country: 2/12
I agree. Let the L handle the amount. As for her complaints, what were they? And I'm not talking about the nonsense spew, but what were her problems with you?
And of course I have to ask, are you sure there isn't another man?
Hi Mr. Bond,
Thank you for your note. We are both women, so I don't think there is another man.
There may be another woman, I am not sure. In February, when she wanted to work on our M and go to MC, she stopped after a few weeks because she had gone out to dinner with a friend and had some feelings for her.
I am writing here tonight instead of sending her an angry, hurt note. I got an email today with a list of statues and art pieces she wants to take with her. Perhaps it is unfair of me, but it feels like I have already been stripped of so much in this process (our marriage, the dreams of our future, the love of my life) that I feel so hurt when I get these requests for things... I know they are just things and I am not even sure why it hurts so badly. Maybe because those things are important enough to go with her while I am just left behind..
I guess I am in the LRT stage and I know that I should not let her see how much this all hurts. Thank you DBers for letting me vent here.
As far as your other question, Mr Bond, (James?), there have been a long list along the way. I think the primary was that I was distant recently. I am self-employed and was trying to build up my business by working for three contractors for awhile. I thought I was doing the right thing for our future. She was busy too after a promotion but I guess she felt like I was too distant. Also, I know I would tend to shut down when we would argue. I have been working on myself since this started and wish I had the chance to do things differently but she says that she has no feelings for me and is not willing to work on trying to get them back.
Me: 51 W: 41
T: 10 M: 7
ILYBINILWY: 7/11
Moved out: 10/11
Moved back in: 11/11 moved out again and asked for divorce 7 days later
Wants to work on things: 1/12
She decides to move across country: 2/12
Move date scheduled for April 12.
Dear NG,
I'm sorry you are here, but you are in the best place for a lousy reason.
You can learn a lot about yourself here...it's the one upside to this situation...becoming the best YOU that you can be.
BTW, I'm very direct and short of time atm. So I'll cut to the chase...
Hi Mr. Bond,
Thank you for your note. We are both women, so I don't think there is another man.
There may be another woman, I am not sure. In February, when she wanted to work on our M and go to MC, she stopped after a few weeks because she had gone out to dinner with a friend and had some feelings for her.
that ^^ is significant to me. Flesh that out please. Really.... what's the story?
I am writing here tonight instead of sending her an angry, hurt note.
smart! I got an email today with a list of statues and art pieces she wants to take with her. Perhaps it is unfair of me, but it feels like I have already been stripped of so much in this process (our marriage, the dreams of our future, the love of my life) that I feel so hurt when I get these requests for things... I know they are just things and I am not even sure why it hurts so badly. Maybe because those things are important enough to go with her while I am just left behind..
the two issues ( the marriage and the things) are separate. She certainly sees them as separate and you probably should too, b/c I fear you are taking this too lightly b/c you are afraid of upsetting her more.
What will she do if you upset her, leave? OH wait, she already is leaving.
Maybe standing up for yourself will be attractive to her, (at least it would be new behavior, right?) But if it's not, you are not hurting yourself...
And you need to be less predictable with her now.
I think you'd be wise to protect yourself. What does your lawyer say? If you have not talked to one or hired one, do so asap...I guess I am in the LRT stage and I know that I should not let her see how much this all hurts. Thank you DBers for letting me vent here.
As far as your other question, Mr Bond, (James?),
there have been a long list along the way. I think the primary was that I was distant recently.
this^^^ is too vague for me to wrap my brain around or to advise as to how to correct...can't say how to do a 180 b/c I don't know what you mean. Be specific please.
I am self-employed and was trying to build up my business by working for three contractors for awhile. I thought I was doing the right thing for our future. She was busy too after a promotion but I guess she felt like I was too distant.
you seem to be explaining yourself here...did you neglect or ignore her or not? DIG DEEPER. It's okay to have screwed up. Most of us have.
What do you think her "love language" is and what is yours?
Also, I know I would tend to
shut down when we would argue.
meaning what? You'd walk away? Ignore her? Be silent? What? How did you resolve conflicts? How were her feelings handled by you?
I have been working on myself since this started and wish I had the chance to do things differently but she says that she has no feelings for me and is not willing to work on trying to get them back.
what do you mean by "working on" yourself? You said her list of complaints was long...
but all I see are two vague ones that you sort of immediately explain/defend, so...do you think they were flaws or traits you want to work on or not?
Were you "right" to be the way you are? Is that what matters to you most now?
IOW, do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? Do YOU want to change YOU?
You are the only one posting here so you are the only one we can help.
We/You have no control over her. But you CAN control you and that can change a marriage.
When one person changes in a 2 person r, the r itself does change.
also, why'd you two move to where you are now anyhow? Did she like her job? And do you like yours? You sound really busy...are you happy with it?
Any drinking, kids, prior m's, substance abuse or tempers flaring? Any repeated complaints about anything?
What were her most consistent complaints? Do you think there is ANY validity to them?
If so, let's get to work. You want to change you so you can become a woman only a fool would leave.
If she still leaves, then maybe she's a fool. But you'll still be better off. So don't keep asking yourself if you should bother changing or working on yourself
b/c she might still go. That means the changes are just 'tactics" to get her back, as opposed to genuine self improvement.
Don't blow this chance to become the best you possible. It makes the pain of this ordeal, sorta worth it.
And if you miss out on the chance for change/growth, then you miss out on so much of life.
This is your future so dig deep...
And keep posting.
Me: 51 W: 41
T: 10 M: 7
ILYBINILWY: 7/11
Moved out: 10/11
Moved back in: 11/11 moved out again and asked for divorce 7 days later
Wants to work on things: 1/12
She decides to move across country: 2/12
Move date scheduled for April 12.
Thank you, 25yearrsmlc. I like your directness and I want to use this insane amount of pain for something positive.
Let's see.. is there another woman? about 2 weeks after W came over and stated that she wanted to go to MC with me and that she was "confident" that we could work things out, she went to dinner with a mutual friend. She told me later that week that she was surprised that she started having feelings that night for the friend, that this proved that she could not get her feelings back for me and that she "did not have any more left" to work on things with me. I do not know if she has pursued that relationship since then.
I have a lawyer and since I had the house prior to the M, the market decline and remodel loans there is not much there for her. She had agreed to settlement verbally last week and then started changing her mind.
I'll be honest, I am still confused as to what I did or didn't do based on her complaints: I was too distant, needy, controlling, needed botox, did not take care of myself, anxious, jealous, rejecting... Sometimes I agree with all of them, at least to a degree. I think a big factor was the jealousy thing. I had several times in our relationship asked her (she felt accused) about having feelings for other women.
I had not done this for a few years, but then last spring, I asked her about an ex of hers from Texas (where she is moving.) We had been friends with the ex and her partner of 12 years. The ex started talking to my W about how unhappy she was in her relationship. That seemed to cross boundaries to me and and combined with other things (the ex was coming here on business a lot and started emailing my W instead of both of us about getting together) I got suspicious. I asked my W last spring if she had feelings for the ex and she got very angry with me for asking. To be honest, all the previous times I asked were very far fetched and my W felt like I did not trust her.
Honestly, we did not argue much at all and I think now that was one of the problems. I was very avoidant of conflict and I can see now how I need to work on that. When I was little, my mom would get very irrational and angry and I never liked it. With my W, I would get flooded and shut down or give in. I was not good at hearing her feelings.
I was also jealous of the time she spent at work because she was working 60 - 70 hours a week and I did not listen well to her when she would talk about work. I wanted to talk about other things and should have been more caring.
i have been going through menopause and am not sure if I did not realize too how it was affecting me and us.
I tend to shut down when I am stressed too so I know I was not communicative and can understand how she felt disconnected. I felt her get critical a few moths before the bomb but she seemed critical of everyone, not just me so I did not think it was about us.
I so wish I could do so many things over but I can't. I have apologized and taken responsibility but she was already so angry.
I have not read love languages but will do so....
thank you, 25yearsmlc, I want to dig deep.
Me: 51 W: 41
T: 10 M: 7
ILYBINILWY: 7/11
Moved out: 10/11
Moved back in: 11/11 moved out again and asked for divorce 7 days later
Wants to work on things: 1/12
She decides to move across country: 2/12
Move date scheduled for April 12.
I feel horrible. I totally threw all my good DBing out the door.
I got upset via email and then she wanted me to call her and I did.
She moves on April 12th and I think it is just starting to sink in that she is really going. I cried almost all day yesterday.
I told her that I was hurt that she could discard me so easily and yet worry and send me an email about wanting a $10 buddha head. I told her that a 10 year relationship deserved more than 2 therapy sessions and that she was running. I told her that we never even talked after she said she was unhappy...that she kept leaving and having "boundaries". I told her that on the day she said she was unhappy that I still thought that we both felt that we were the luckiest people in the world to have found each other. I told her that any of our friends that are having problems spend time working on it.
I know she is running and I know my words are pushing, not helping.
In reply she basically said that this is hard for her too, that she feels as if she did work on it but that she just can't work on it the way I want. (therapy, time) I said that two therapy sessions and a few dates is not working on it, that of course, after so much time apart that it would take time to get past the fear. I told her that it was really unfair that she would tell me that she wanted to work on things and then bail so quickly.
I know that I messed up by saying all that and pushed her further away.
What do I do now? I don't know how all of you control all of these feelings and DB in the midst of it.
I am so so sad that she is moving in a few weeks. I can not believe it, it feels like a bad dream.
I am so sorry...and I don't have time for a more thoughtful reply at the moment.
I'll include the "37" rules based on the DB approach. Sandi assembled them and I made a modification or two...or 4?
So see if these help and they DO make sense and they are DB principles in practice.
Let her believe you have had an awakening. She cannot count on you being there...that may be helpful now and I'm not sure it'll hurt. It sounds as if she knows you want things to work,
so let's be LESS predictable.
These are "Rules" for newcomers assembled/organized by Sandi, consisting of principles based on MWD's Div Busting approach, (& editied SLIGHTLY by yours truly). I recommend you copy and paste & print it out. Carry it in your pocket if you have to. I know I did.
FOR WHEN YOU GET "THE BOMB"….
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then, don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.) In short, No Snooping.
11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne/perfume, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15. When at home with your spouse, do 180s… (so if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her to initiate), then be rather scarce or minimal with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short & simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! (No matter what time he/she comes home.) You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy YOUR life and time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life too.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it. The supposed changes will look like "tactics" to get them back & then they won't believe the changes are lasting.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive & fun to be with. (As hard as this is, remember that angry, sad, pouting people do NOT ATTRACT others to them). The FUN somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a long while) so this takes patience on your behalf.
21. Never lose your cool! Never lose your temper! (That reinforces their choice to leave). Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill or be over the top in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel! And besides, feelings can and often do CHANGE.
24. Be patient……VERY, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25. **Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do NOT interrupt them when they are speaking, OR correct them, and stop what you may be working on or doing, to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying. (Listening better never hurts.)
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell). Silence can be the loving thing to "not say."
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Calmness is soothing to the calm person AND their "audience". Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only, NOT your spouse. The more you tell them what you are doing (or trying to show them) the more your actions will seem manipulative & insincere.
29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write or a single dramatic gesture. (Not saying not to do/say those too, but focus on consistent changes, over time. That earns the spouse's belief in the changes).
30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever, & even when you truly feel desperate & needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse. Very important that you get this concept.
31. When you communicate with your spouse, do not focus on yourself; instead, focus on them. If in person, make eye contact.
32. Do not believe any of what THEY SAY and less than 50% of what THEY DO. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared, AND OR, b/c they want to justify their leaving.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes! Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day, unless absolutely necessary. (That means only in urgent matters.)
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.
Hang in There NG...you will make it through this. You will survive. And if you really "get" DBing...
you will THRIVE
During this period, you're going to have to weed out the nuggets of what's bothering her from the rubbish. She's in the angry phase. It'll soon pass as long as you practice being consistent and calm.
Thank you for your kind replies. I had read the 37 rules before but need to read them daily. They are so helpful.
I had a better weekend DBing and this led to a conversation Monday where W brought up feelings she had from our attempt for her to get pregnant via artificial insemination a few years back. At first she was angry and accusatory but I remained calm and we were able to actually have a positive conversation about how we both felt.
I have felt like we have not talked since this started at the end of July, that she was always angry, unable and/or unavailable to talk. She moves in 2 weeks, and I know that she may very well distort our conversation to continue to reinforce her decision but I know that there is nothing I can do about that.
She wrote and thanked me for talking about it, that it was hard but good. In the past I would have used that as an example to push for more conversation, but now I am 180ing by not asking.
She had been having abdominal pain and she told me that they had found gallstones. She has to go to a specialist and may require surgery. Of course, I searched online to see if that can cause depression and anger. One doctor believes it can but there is not much other support for that notion. Guess I need to stop looking for an easy solution.
We agreed to a settlement this week and I am nervous and scared about receiving divorce papers sometime soon. I know it is coming but it will hurt as it is one more step.
I heard that her friends are throwing a going away party which makes me sad.
I am feeling okay though. I have a great IC that allows me to accept the part of me that cries and acts like a baby and to see that it is just a part of me and not all of me. i had been beating myself up about it. I also have family coming in town next week and have been excited to get my house ready for the guests. I have great friends and much to be grateful for. Including all of you on this forum. I take great comfort and am inspired by your series and support. Thank you.
I searched online to see if that can cause depression and anger.
I think you have it backwards.
The depression and stress might be causing the stomach problems.
Not the other way around.
You are correct that their are no easy solutions or magic pills that will make this better.
Let her deal with it and stop trying to FIX it for her.
That is not going to work.
Yes, I believe too that the depression and stress is creating the physical symptoms.
I am a "fixer." Do you think my conversation w/ her sounds like "fixing" Mr Bond? Thanks you for your help.
oops I meant Cadet, not Mr. Bond. Sorry!
Hi,
I must admit that I keep obsessing about my situation. I feel as if I need to get better about detaching. I read the live strong article and i understand the importance of GAL, but I was wondering if anyone had other ideas that worked for them to help with detaching? Thank you.
here is a short piece on Detachment. There are other pieces on this site. It is not specific,
but if you GAL and bear these principles in mind it may help..
here it is.
"This was originally posted by Peanut.
============
II. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done. Our ego gets wounded and we say or do things that undermine our goals.
We can NOT control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.
If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal.
It is not the mind saying, "I am not getting what I want so I must pull back." It is the natural acceptance of the reality that "I am alone responsible for how I act.
I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."
good luck!
Thank you 25. I am using some of the words above as a mantra today, "I am responsible for my own happiness. I can not control anyone else, I can only control how I respond to them."
Dark as these days have been, they have also been a time of growth (funny how that goes together.)
I have been reading a great deal of Buddhist philosophy. One of my favorites in Pema Chodron and this is a quote of hers that I cherish now,
“…feelings like disappointment, embarrassment, irritation, resentment, anger, jealousy, and fear, instead of being bad news, are actually very clear moments that teach us where it is that we’re holding back. They teach us to perk up and lean in when we feel we’d rather collapse and back away. They’re like messengers that show us, with terrifying clarity, exactly where we’re stuck. This very moment is the perfect teacher, and, lucky for us, it’s with us wherever we are.”
― Pema Chödrön
I went through some loss in my 20's (both parents died within a year of each other) and after that I moved cross country and isolated myself by throwing myself into my career as a way to avoid caring for anyone and taking the risk of more loss. This situation has awakened that fear and I am starting to realize how it still holds me back from loving myself, others and my life more fully.
What a strange journey this is.
Thanks again for your support 25 and for helping me grow.
Hi ng, your situation is so similar to mine. The list of 37 is a so right on and helps every time I read it. Keep it handy in multiple places.
Backslides. It happens to us all. Forgive yourself, recognize the mistake and look forward.
Fixing. I too am a fixer. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. It was a horrible eye-opening, fetal-position, full on crying moment when it all came crashing on me. Then once I knew, I was so fearful I'd never have an opportunity to correct the action. It happens almost daily, so no fears any more there. I recognize now immediately when i'm about to do it, and am able to let people be who they are. It's a good feeling, and a few weeks after acknowledging and consciously doing something about it my W even remarked about changes in me. Another thing to forgive yourself for and move ahead.
As you focus on yourself, she'll notice the changes. The roller coaster is extremely difficult, but having someplace to lean on is the best for dealing with it.
Good luck, and here's to feeling stronger, even just a tiny bit, everyday.
Fixing. I too am a fixer.
Just to be perfectly clear, most LBS are FIXERS so join the club.
If you took a poll on these forums you would NOT find too many people who are not FIXERS.
Now that we are clear on that, most all of us need to 180 that behavior.
Hope that helps.
Hi sh, I read your posts (so similar!) and am wishing the best for you in your situation too. how are you doing?? thank you for your support, it really helps to not feel so alone in this and to learn from all the wise people here. i will remember your words about letting people be who they are..
i have not heard from my W in a few days and it feels as if she is just running away without a backwards glance... i am not contacting her and trying to trust the process. i had a nightmare last night that she was dating someone else..ouch.
i have a lot of growing to do, i realize now how i lost myself in the relationship and my ability to make myself happy. i am sure that was not attractive to my W either. i think she lost herself too and thinks that she can't be together and be herself.
i am getting stronger though, i did not think i could make it through this and i am doing it, surviving...and hopefully, on my way to thriving.
please let me know how you are, sh, and i am still hoping with you, for you!
Thank you 25. I am using some of the words above as a mantra today, "I am responsible for my own happiness. I can not control anyone else, I can only control how I respond to them."
Dark as these days have been, they have also been a time of growth (funny how that goes together.)
Boy I hear you there. I wish we could "learn life lessons" from winning the lottery...
alas it seems the way to real growth or meaningful lasting change, is usually accompanied by a lousy event.
I have been reading a great deal of Buddhist philosophy. One of my favorites in Pema Chodron and this is a quote of hers that I cherish now,
“…feelings like disappointment, embarrassment, irritation, resentment, anger, jealousy, and fear, instead of being bad news, are actually very clear moments that teach us where it is that we’re holding back. They teach us to perk up and lean in when we feel we’d rather collapse and back away. They’re like messengers that show us, with terrifying clarity, exactly where we’re stuck. This very moment is the perfect teacher, and, lucky for us, it’s with us wherever we are.”
― Pema Chödrön
I like that^^ too. You might also like "The Power of Now". I actually preferred the audio version which is weird. But his voice is so soothing...then again, don't listen to it while driving b/c you could nod off.
I went through some loss in my 20's (both parents died within a year of each other) and after that I moved cross country and isolated myself by throwing myself into my career as a way to avoid caring for anyone and taking the risk of more loss. This situation has awakened that fear and I am starting to realize how it still holds me back from loving myself, others and my life more fully.
wow that is a big amount of loss. Do you have siblings? Are you seeing a T to deal with this^^? And while I can see the connection between moving away (geographic cure and "starting fresh")
I'm not clear on the avoidance of love/connection to their deaths or your move. So You do love your spouse...or what?
Are you saying you withheld from fully loving, as a means of protecting yourself from being hurt,
but now find you are bringing about the very thing you feared (i.e., abandonment)?
You might be surprised at how often this happens.
What a strange journey this is.
Thanks again for your support 25 and for helping me grow.
you are very welcome.
The "upside" to really digging in and working this DB program, regardless of martial outcome, is the growth in communication, boundaries, and an inner sense of peace that can come only from an inward journey.
Keep posting!
Wow.. tough night.
I was trying to GAL and met a good friend for drinks at a local wine bar and we were sitting at a front table. I live in a decent size city so this was a shocker.... my W walks by outside with two other women, one of which is the woman she told me she started having feelings for when she pulled the plug on trying to work things out with me recently.
She saw us there.
This hurts...
Get back to detachment.
Yes of course that would hurt.
I suggest you re-read the going dark articles and anything else about detachment that you can find.
Thanks Cadet! I read the going dark section again and really liked this part by Sparky:
"One thing they knew for sure was that they did not want you in the picture. When people are depressed and confused about their identity like many people who request separations are, they become cognitively disorganized and impulsive in their choices. And when you are coming at them trying to make them stay with you, it just feels bad and like there's a pressure there to stay where they were.
And they don't want to stay where they were. They are wanting big changes. And if you stay the same as you always have been, and are unwilling to allow them to go on the journey that they need, or you are setting agendas about how they need to be, you just look like a controlling wench or [censored]. You become a representation of what they were trying to get away from.
As long as you keep pressuring them, you don't stand a chance. You will remain the embodiment of those bad feelings they are having. You will be something to avoid. You will make it very easy for them to continue to project or blame you for the bad feelings that reside inside of them.
If they are alone with those bad feelings still lingering inside, and you are nowhere in the vicinity, then perhaps they will begin to see that the pain they were feeling was really about something unhealed inside of them rather than something about you. You need to cut that link between bad feelings and you.
If you want there to ever be a future between you and your spouse, I believe you have to let your spouse take the journey that is rightfully theirs, even if they way they are communicating that to you [censored]. Even if it hurts like nothing else you've ever felt. If you love them, you have to let them go through that.
And you can't keep looking over to see if they are done yet. It's suffocating. Instead, this is your chance to learn new things. Walk around in your feelings and see what is unhealed in you that makes it so easy for you to feel crazy about this crappy situation in which you find yourself."
I did not end up feeling as badly as I expected last night. I felt better after I vented on here and I went to bed. I think that detachment is starting to sink in and I believe that going dark is the best choice for now.
Thanks again Cadet. I am so very grateful for you.
I'm sorry you are here NG. You're sitch is very new and there is no easy way to sugar coat it... it's gonna sukk for awhile.
I do not think it's impossible to DB whilst going through the divorce process.. it's definitely hard because the likelyhood of your w responding in a positive way most likely won't happen... until it's over....
... which is very draining when you are watching your life crumble in front of you.
However if you can stay focused on YOUR changes and how YOU want to act in the outcome.. you will come out the otherside.. better than before.
I promised that I would honor my vows until the very end. My w spewed venom and confusion, she has taken money, tried to kick me off of her insurance. She has cried, yelled, baited, guilted.. you name it.
But I refuse to retaliate. I refuse to take my pain and anger and express it.
Does my w see it? I don't know... I don't care. It's more about me. About who I want to be.
Who do you want to be in this process. When it's over - who is woman staring back at you in the mirror?
Will it be a woman you can be proud of?
Will it be someone who "loved" to the best of her ability?
Will it be a woman only a fool would leave?
Thank you Valeska19, your post really makes sense to me. I agree totally and will reread your words when I feel hurt and am tempted to not be the best me. Thank you.
A friend told me that maybe it was a good thing that I saw W out last night, and now I think it was. It made everything more real and cut through any illusions I might have as to what is going on with her while we are not having much contact.
Also, I am so so happy (and SHOCKED to be honest) that I have not been tempted to text or call her. Finally, I feel as if I am starting to get my feet back under me and am able to focus on my life. I went bicycling on the beach today, loving Southern California.
I wish I had posted much earlier on this journey. I lurked for awhile, read many posts and thought that was good enough. I was wrong, there is definitely much more to be learned by posting your own story and getting feedback. I encourage all to do so.
Thanks again Valeska. How is your situation going? I wish you all the best.
Today my mind is going over the past week and how I handled things with my W.
Last Sunday, my W came over to clean out a closet. (I was not here.)
On Monday, we had a conversation about things she was taking on her move. (She moves out of state on April12.) She asked me if I was getting a roommate because I had cleared my desk out of one of the bedrooms. I told her I was thinking about it and was honest that I had moved the desk out to make space for a bed for my family's visit next week. (Is that too much information to give?)
She also voiced concerns for the second time about my friendships. She said she was concerned that I was being "guided" by a friend who is 16 years younger than I am. (In a weird twist of fate, she is also one of my W's exes. Lesbians are like that
. We have become good friends through bicycling together.)
I explained that this friend has been really kind and caring to me and made a joke with a smiley face that since I am "controlling" how could she guide me. (I know... passive aggressive, huh?) W came back to say that it was none of her business and that she was glad that this friend was there for me.
Any thoughts on how I handled that exchange?
It is alternately easy and difficult to not text or call. I guess the ups and downs are normal. When it is hard, I remind myself of the times it has been easy and also remind myself of the reasons I am not in contact now, to give her space and to allow myself to detach and grow. I guess I am giving us both space. Right now is a hard time though.
This morning, I found that the bird nest in the backyard had been disturbed and all the eggs were smashed on the ground. That made me sad and for some reason made me miss my W more.
I was tempted to email and ask her if she wanted to watch our dog while I am away this week. W is moving on April 12th. I know though that when I look at it honestly, I am attempting to manipulate and remind her of what she is leaving behind. So I will find someone else.
I miss her so much sometimes, it just hurts.
I have been GALing and had a good weekend but just felt like sharing my sadness this morning with those who understand it better than anyone. thank you.
It is alternately easy and difficult to not text or call. I guess the ups and downs are normal.
YES we all cycle, continue to not call or text.
I am attempting to manipulate and remind her of what she is leaving behind. So I will find someone else.
Good Idea
I miss her so much sometimes, it just hurts.
Perfectly Normal
I have been GALing and had a good weekend but just felt like sharing my sadness this morning with those who understand it better than anyone. thank you.
No problem! Keep posting, you seem to be on the right path for now.
This is hard stuff.
You need to be there when ever she is at the place. You need to make sure that she only takes what you agreed upon. Nothing more, nothing less.
That is truly a great quote!
Feeling hopeless tonight.
My W was here to pack up stuff and was angry and cold. I don't think I will see her again before she moves out of state and that makes me so very sad.
And I fell off the db wagon and asked her not to tell people that she was moving to "give me space." It made me angry that she is acting so altruistic when the truth is that she wanted to move there for her own reasons. It felt like she won't take responsibility for any of the chaos she has created.... But I should not have cared...DBing is so so hard. Is it easier for others out there? I wonder why.
It is so bizarre, it feels like she is an entirely different person, as if the person I knew has been taken over by an alien
I hate that none of this makes sense. I hate that she seems to have no recall of all of the love and good things we shared. I need to work on letting go of the need to make sense of things.
My therapist today said that my W was not able to work through things that are difficult without running away. If that is true and she does not come back, maybe it is better to learn that now instead of at a real crisis point.
When does this get easier?
DBing is difficult at first because you are so scared. Your life gets turned upside down and you FEEL like you have lost all control of your life...
... so when DB says let them go, don't pursue... it's counter-intuitive to all the feelings you have.
Because you hope that if you hold on tighter.. they may change their mind.
But the fact is.. you have already lost them.
and understanding and accepting that you have already lost them.. is an extremely hard thing to come to terms with.
It's hard in the beginning to hold back our hope or to do things w/o expecting our spouses to notice or come back...
... this does not makes us bad people... it makes us people who are scared.
Whether we are scared about what life will look without our spouse or with our spouse. Scared that we will NEVER heal, never be happy, never smile or laugh again...
whatever it is... we are just scared of the unknown.
And it isn't until we look that fear and tell it to fvck off that we truly grasp DBing.. That's when it becomes easier.
That's when we are no longer afraid to let go or make the changes. That's when are no longer afraid to love our spouse w/o fear of the outcome.
It is my belief that DBing brings out the best in all of us.. and if our spouses can't see it... well we've done everything we can.....
.... and we can move on knowing our next R will be so much better, because we took the time and put in the work to become better.
Hang in there!
((( )))
Great post, Val, cuts right to the heart of the matter.
"And it isn't until we look that fear and tell it to fvck off that we truly grasp DBing.. That's when it becomes easier.
That's when we are no longer afraid to let go or make the changes. That's when are no longer afraid to love our spouse w/o fear of the outcome."
Love this, Val, thank you. And thank you for your empathy and words of encouragement.
I got a note from my W saying that she is going to move next week out of state to spend time with her mom so that she can "take her time with making any concrete decisions." i don't know what that means and she did not explain any further.
i don't know if this is about a possible new relationship (the woman she admitted having some feelings for who i saw her with again last week) and/or if she is re-thinking filing the D papers.
I have decided not to ask. What does everyone think about this choice? I decided that I need to learn to be okay no matter what she does and thought that i should start now with this, not needing to know.... I figured if she wanted to say more to me, she would.
Val, that was great, just pasted into my db doc!
Dear veteran DBers:
I posted the following last week and would love some feedback about how i am handling this:
I got a note from my W saying that after her move on April 12th out of state, she will be spending time with her mom so that she can "take her time with making any concrete decisions." i don't know what that means and she did not explain any further.
i don't know if this is about a possible new relationship (the woman she admitted having some feelings for who i saw her with again last week) and/or if she is re-thinking filing the D papers.
I have decided not to ask. What does everyone think about this choice? I decided that I need to learn to be okay no matter what she does and thought that i should start now with this, not needing to know.... I figured if she wanted to say more to me, she would.
This is a 180 for me as well.
Thank you for the feedback.
Have no expectations would be my advice. Sounds simple but not so easy to put into practice. However if you can have no expectations about what she may or may not do, it will make your whole life better.
I have decided not to ask. What does everyone think about this choice? I decided that I need to learn to be okay no matter what she does and thought that i should start now with this, not needing to know.... I figured if she wanted to say more to me, she would.
Sounds like a good PLAN,
Trying to figure out what is in her head is just MINDREADING.
Unlikely to be able to figure it out.
You 180 sounds like good first steps down a path.
Stay on it.
Thank you labug and Cadet. I so appreciate your support and good advice. I am working on staying focused on me and my life. I have family in town and they have been so wonderful. I was worried that I might not be able to enjoy them with everything going on right now, but it has turned out to be such a blessing to be so busy and I have had a lot of fun taking them all over southern california (wine tasting in Santa Barbara, boating through the canals in Long Beach, Rose Bowl flea market, Huntington Gardens and of course eating all the yummy LA food!)
Of course, there have been some sad moments. My W moves out of state on Thursday and I still miss her, especially during the fun times, I wish she were there to enjoy them too. I have not contacted her and am planning not to see her on Thursday. I think that is best for me.
I read an article today about how women can tend to lose themselves in their relationships and then divorce feels like freedom. I feel like this is what happened to the two of us, only I wish we could find ourselves as individuals while still married. But that is not where my W is at, so I can only work on finding me. I feel as if I have been doing that fairly well, and am beginning to enjoy activities more.
But I must admit that I am scared about getting through Thursday and the days after. I still feel as if I am in a bad dream and am waiting to wake up. Thank you for all your help DBers. What a wonderful community.
I read an article today about how women can tend to lose themselves in their relationships and then divorce feels like freedom.
Yeah, you know, I think this is the case with many relationships. I'm still trying to figure out how to be in an R and still feel a sense of freedom, whilst being exclusive.
My coach once said, "All couples form a symbiosis of some sort."
Yes, yankeecandle, I agree that it is difficult to feel a sense of freedom in a relationship.
I was reading Kahlil Gibran's writings on marriage and love this quote: “But let there be spaces in your togetherness and let the winds of the heavens dance between you. Love one another but make not a bond of love: let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.”
Hoping I can learn how!
...I got a note from my W saying that after her move on April 12th out of state, she will be spending time with her mom so that she can "take her time with making any concrete decisions." i don't know what that means and she did not explain any further.
i don't know if this is about a possible new relationship (the woman she admitted having some feelings for who i saw her with again last week) and/or if she is re-thinking filing the D papers.
I have decided not to ask. What does everyone think about this choice? I decided that I need to learn to be okay no matter what she does and thought that i should start now with this, not needing to know.... I figured if she wanted to say more to me, she would.
This is a 180 for me as well.
Thank you for the feedback.
I think you answered your own question within the quote block above. You don't need to know and therefore don't need to expend any energy thinking about it. Keep your focus where it will do you the most good, namely on yourself!
I have had a lot of fun taking them all over southern california (wine tasting in Santa Barbara, boating through the canals in Long Beach, Rose Bowl flea market, Huntington Gardens and of course eating all the yummy LA food!)
You are making me homesick!
Thank you, 2tp, for confirming my thought. Sorry for making you homesick!
Well, my family left today and tomorrow my W is moving out of state. I am feeling sad and a little numb. I guess that the numbness is my mind's way of protecting me right now. I am feeling unsure of myself, how I will get through this. I feel so much pain about her leaving, it feels so final.
I need some advice from you vets: I am planning on not seeing her tomorrow when she picks up stuff from the garage. I think the DB way would be to say goodbye and have a good interaction to let her know what she will be missing, but I don't know if I can do that. We have not been in contact much at all in recent weeks. What do you vets think? Should I summon all my strength and toughen up to say goodbye or is it okay to not see her?
Thank you.
Should I summon all my strength and toughen up to say goodbye or is it okay to not see her?
The question ISN'T ... should you?
The question IS... can you?
it's okay to not see her. In fact, I would arrange all of her things in one pile and in the places where her things were previously, have new things to replace it.
Show her that YOU've decided to move on and make yourself happy. Freshen up the home with flowers and fresh scents. Make it seem like you're perfectly fine right now.
Find something enjoyable to do for the period she was planning to come by.
You can do it.
Thank you for the feedback.
Val, I truly don't know if I can. I think it is best for me if I stay away.
Mr. Bond, I like your idea of making the place look like I am happy and content and moving on with my life. I have bought a cool new piece of furniture that I will display proudly and some beautiful new chairs to replace some she is taking. I will set them up tonight and make everything look bright and happy. This will be a wonderful 180 as I had been not wanting to change things with her gone and she knew it.
Thank you so so much for helping me through this.
So today was the big day. My W moved out of state. I just got home and it is strange and sad to see half the furniture gone, to feel the emptiness.
But my mind turns to things the vets on this board have said along the way: to give her space, that the old R is gone, that no matter what happens I can choose to learn and grow and be happy, that I have been given the gift of time.. and I realize that I am learning to detach and to GAL and that these things are truly helping me get through this. thank you.
I have not received any D papers and I guess the thing to do is not to ask, but to realize that they do not matter, that D papers or not the old R is gone, so I am not living in limbo, I am just living. I all grieve but I will survive. An old me is gone too, replaced by someone who is surviving what she thought she couldn't get through.
NG,
I'm glad you decided to stay away. Avoiding the emotional rollercoaster won't be possible for a little bit. Ride it as best you can.
But my mind turns to things the vets on this board have said along the way: to give her space, that the old R is gone, that no matter what happens I can choose to learn and grow and be happy, that I have been given the gift of time.. and I realize that I am learning to detach and to GAL and that these things are truly helping me get through this. thank you.
I have not received any D papers and I guess the thing to do is not to ask, but to realize that they do not matter, that D papers or not the old R is gone, so I am not living in limbo, I am just living. I all grieve but I will survive. An old me is gone too, replaced by someone who is surviving what she thought she couldn't get through.
This is a good perspective. Keep these thoughts in the forefront of your mind.
Make YOUR life YOUR own.. there is no better time than NOW.
((( )))
I have not received any D papers and I guess the thing to do is not to ask, but to realize that they do not matter, that D papers or not the old R is gone,
This is part of the script, she is keeping her foot in the door and you are a backup plan in case things don't work out.
Stay dark and let her control the contact.
She must live her new life to see if it is what will bring her happiness.
My guess is no, but only TIME will tell.
Now use the TIME you have as wisely as possible.
Thank you, Val and Cadet, for your support and advice.
Val, it is true that the roller coaster continues. I feel worse today. The reality is setting in... This is definitely a marathon, not a sprint. I think it is normal though, I am grieving the loss. I am blessed in so many ways and will get through this, but I am allowing myself to be sad now.
Cadet, I think you are right. The vague note she left said : "I will be in touch about things once I am settled." What in the world does that mean??? Why is it so hard for her to be clear and tell me what is going on with the D? or if she is already in another R? I don't understand and wonder too how I should feel about being a backup plan?
I am allowing myself to grieve tonight and tomorrow I will get up and GAL. I will continue to work on me and to work on detaching. A friend told me to stop waiting and hoping for W to change and come back. I don't really know how to do that, stop hoping... I am working on GALing but in the back of my mind, in my heart, I have not given up hope. I don't even know how to...
Thank you for sharing. I am new here and I appreciate that you are sharing your story with us. Please know there are people like myself sending you positive energy. Have the strength to be happy.
The reality is hard. I spent my first 3 months just GALing the sh!t out of my life. Any thing I was invited to... I went to. I exercised a bunch.
I also created a bucket list. I gained so much confidence and empowerment just crossing stuff off that list.
In the beginning you are using GAL to fill a recent hole or to lessen the blow of your life turning upside down...
.... but it won't always serve this purpose.
As for hope.. well we all have it. Thus why we are here. They say that you can still have hope whilst accepting what is the now.
You can hope whist moving on.
I wasn't very good at that. It wasn't until I gave up hope that I was able to move on.
But I did that at my own time... in my own way.
You will figure out how to do these things as well. Don't bottle up what you feel.. but don't dwell in it either.
And it will get easier every day.
((( )))
Thanks Val and LF.
Five days since my W moved out of state. Not a word from her. I have not contacted her either and was not really been tempted to all weekend (what a change from the first few months of this situation)
I GAL'd this weekend and enjoyed biking along the beach, cleaning out the garage for a fresh start and looking for new furniture. I did all of those with a friend and enjoyed myself. It is when I am home alone, just me and my cute dog, that I tend to obsess.... I have had some success turning my mind away from the obsessive thinking to a new project of forming a vision board of what I want in my life, where I want to go and who i want to be... I was feeling happy ad hopeful..
Then today came...uh oh..
I pulled myself off Facebook a few months ago to help detach. A friend asked me today if i wanted to know what W posted. i initially said no and then she said that it was good news and i mistakenly acquiesced. W posted on the day of her move that "it was finally sinking in" and a sad face. Honestly, I do not read anything into that about us, it seemed to be just about moving.
My friend then told me that W posted that she was moving back here in 6 months like it was definite. That sent me reeling...I started thinking that she was already talking about moving back because she had started a new R already (the girl she had told me she was interested in last month) and how difficult it will all be if she moves back to this small community and I just got so anxious and sad tonight.
Of course, I wanted to call her, wanted an answer about the D papers and if there is a new R to end this anxiety....but thankfully I didn't call or text her. (That is a big 180 for me to manage my anxiety!)
i have been reading a great deal on the boards about MLC and think that is what she is having, but also think that she is naturally a runner and may never stop running. i need to refocus tomorrow on me and my own growth and happiness.
it is so humbling, this journey, every time i think i have a handle on it, i get knocked down again. i wish i could detach easier....i was imagining how 25 would handle it today.... probably with the confidence to know that even if W started a new R, she would quickly realize that i am the type of woman that can not be easily replaced!!
journal:
I have been thinking a great deal about why the very vague bits of news from yesterday put me in such a tailspin emotionally and has been hard to let go of..
I think that I fear rejection/replacement so much bc in the back of my mind, I believe that she is right, that I am all the things she said... and that I have always believed that I am not enough.
During the R, I would have nightmares sometimes that she was leaving me and wake up crying.
One of the things which made her so angry during out R...is that several times I asked her (she would say accused) if she was interested in someone else... I know that hurt her and made her feel like I did not trust her.
I tried to work on it...and did well for several years up to a few months before the ILBINILWY speech when she was paying a lot of attention to an ex, the ex had crossed some boundaries in talking about her unhappiness in her longterm relationship and I asked my W again..
I also tried to explain to her that it was not her that I did not trust but me... I did not trust that I was enough.
I know, terribly unattractive, wish I had known 25 back then.
I want to change this, believe in myself. i have had wonderful success in two careers, survived great loss, have great friends, but still can not seem to get past this inner inferiority...
there are so many pieces to it... i knew i was gay at a very early age, went to a Christian school and college and prayed/cried/felt incredible guilt for years to try and change my sexual orientation... my brother died from cancer when i was 4 creating so much sadness/guilt in my home.. and on and on
i know the pieces but still struggle
i am going to therapy but would appreciate any other guidance from you all.
You can go through your post and take each part that is YOURS and look at what is your portion, things that YOU can CONTROL.
Those are things that YOU need to work on.
Anything to do with your W, is not in YOUR control.
Her feelings, her actions.
But YOUR feeling and actions are within your control.
Your FOO(family of origin) are things to look at and work through.
Of course you can not change the past only what YOU do in the present or future.
Accept the past and then work towards making a better FUTURE, for YOU.
That is the BEST you can DO.
And do it one little step at a time.
Thank you for your support, Cadet. You are right about my need to do the work on me and about doing it one small step at a time. I get frustrated that this path to detachment is much longer than I expected.. I wish there were some shortcuts
but I guess if there were, I would not have done the work which needs to be done...
I am hoping for a better day tomorrow...
for all of us here.
Well, you sure are getting some good advice here. The piece that rings particularly true for me is that we have been given the gift of time and we must use it wisely.
Thanks for stopping in SD. I reread my thread today and made a document of many of the quotes and advice that have been so helpful.
I realized the other day that I have been in relationships for most of the past 20 years without a break. I have decided to spend the next year single and focused on my own growth. I am keeping a daily journal and seeking some form of inspiration/insight daily.
I continue to GAL and it is getting easier.
I have not heard from my W (it has been one week since her move) and I must say that it is a relief to not be getting emails about things she wants to take.. I am having some success at "changing the channel" when I start to obsess.
And I am so very excited that I am going to see the Dalai Lama speak tomorrow.
This board has been such a blessing and lifeline.
I wish you the best, SD.
ok. i know the truth.
received an email from W on friday stating that she was starting the papers this week. she called them "legal separation" papers which was confusing and added to the confusion i had about her statement that she was not making any "concrete decisions" for a few months after her move.
i decided that living in the ambiguity was no longer okay and i texted her asking her about it on Friday.
i finally get a text back today stating that she is sorry for the confusion but that she knows she wants the divorce. and that she might be moving back here (she just moved out of state on 4/12? wth??)
i ask her if she has a new relationship by text and she says yes that she is seeing a friend of ours. ( i suspected this but it still hurts.... bad)
at this point my dbing fell further apart. i texted my shock that this "friend" would get involved in this at the same time when the "friend" knew we had just been trying to work things out (that is when it started)..and my disappointment in how my W had ended our M without trying thx and how it was all consistent w/ classic mlc.
how do i recover from this? i fell off the db wagon hard..
hugs, feel bad for you, I'm pretty much in same boat. But who knows what will be in future. That can keep you going right now.
i'm no expert here, but from what i've read on this forum, there's a lifespan for these OP relationships and it may have to run its course. the vets point to using this time to work on ourselves and GAL. they also say to get back on the "wagon" when you fall off.
(((hugs)))
Thank you hopeless in wa. Hugs to you too!
Thanks also scaredsilly. I do want back on the wagon but am not sure how.
Do I say anything different about it all to her now?
Me (f): 51
W: 41
M: 7 T: 10
ILYBIMILWY: 7/31/11
Move out and back in and out again: 10/11, 11/11
"I want to work on things and feel pretty certain we can work things out" 2/12
"I can't do this anymore and I have feelings for our friend" 3 wks later
Move out of state 4/12/12
Confirmed OW and I am filing this week 4/23/12
I did not make it very clear...
she is filing this week, not me.
Should I say anything to get back on the DB wagon? Thanks!
Me (f): 51
W: 41
M: 7 T: 10
ILYBIMILWY: 7/31/11
Move out and back in and out again: 10/11, 11/11
"I want to work on things and feel pretty certain we can work things out" 2/12
"I can't do this anymore and I have feelings for our friend" 3 wks later
Move out of state 4/12/12
Confirmed OW and "I am filing this week" 4/23/12
i need to vent and don't want to vent to her or wear out my dear sweet friends.
i am just so very sad today. i keep leaving her alone and she just keeps going further and further away.... first the move, now an OW...
i am allowing myself to be frustrated by how she has recreated the past. she says that we tried to talk, that I knew we had problems, that she tried to work things out. .. all i see is her running, from the first day she said anything, and getting scared anytime she would take a moment to try and look back....
i am so sad that she is moving towards filing this week.
Should I say anything to get back on the DB wagon? week"
No just close your mouth, speak with actions not words.
Do not help her with the divorce, let her do the work.
Go completely dark.
If you fall down, pick your self up, dust your self off and get back to doing what worked.
i am allowing myself to be frustrated by how she has recreated the past.
Yes they tend to rewrite history.
all i see is her running, from the first day she said anything, and getting scared anytime she would take a moment to try and look back....
Yes, you need to understand that YOU did nothing wrong, other than be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
This would have happened even if you had won the lottery.
Foregive yourself for anything that did go wrong and foregive her because an alien now inhabits her body.
Let go, detach and let her live her reality.
If something is meant to be then it will happen in the future.
Not right now.
Thank you, Cadet.
Is this MLC and if so do I need to do anything differently:
1. she has been really impulsive (quit job/moved)
2. initial bomb was out of the blue (2 months earlier i was "her heart", we were the luckiest people ever, etc....)
3. would make choice to work on things and then run away again quickly
4. new friends/hair/increased partying
5. angry with me/became very critical
6. OW so quickly
7. seems to recreate the past (she was never happy...)
8. started/stopped her own therapy and marriage therapy quickly and abruptly (2 sessions for MC)
do i do anything different if it were mlc?
sometimes i wonder if i am just being a big baby, not being able to get over this easier. Any feedback? I want to grow.
Do you still keep in contact with this "friend"? How did it all start?
Thanks Mr. Bond.
We were friends with her and her ex. Not close friends but would hang out at parties together and went to their house a few times. I guess her ex moved out around the same time my W said she was unhappy. W started hanging out more with the group that OW is part of socially and less with our close friends.
In late January, W decided that she wanted to work on the M, start spending time together and going to MC. After two weeks, she went out to dinner w/ OW as friends and told me that she told OW that her and I were working on our M. That next weekend, she told me she was going to see her again and, when I asked, admitted that she started having feelings for her. She decided that, bc she had these feelings, that the only answer was to stop working on our M and get a D. She also decided to move out of state.
I wondered about the OW as W is talking about moving back in a few months and I asked W yesterday and she admitted that they are seeing each other. I don't know anything else.
Oh, and no, I have not been in contact with the OW since this started. We used to exchange notes on fb before this but I have been off of there for awhile.
I think so. Has anyone died or become sick recently, that might be a trigger?
if so do I need to do anything differently:
NO
The advice is the same.
You can read one of my initial posts over on the MLC board which will give you lots of homework, but if I am remembering correctly you may have already done that.
Keep working on yourself and get on with your life, detach!
Thanks Cadet. I will reread the MLC homework. I think I need a review.
Possible triggers: she was promoted at work and had a lot more responsibility, stress and was working crazy hours. Also, her mom moved to Germany about a year ago to stay for an undefined period and I think that was hard on her. And we had tried for her to get pregnant a few years back without success. I also think Facebook may be a trigger, she was the queen of it, looking at everyone's posting/photos and since everyone posts like they are the happiest people ever generally, I think she may have bought into it.
hi,
i am confused as to why i am struggling so much since finding out about the OW and that my W is preparing the D papers this week. i feel so anxious and emotional, much like i felt right after my situation started. why is that?
my friend got frustrated with me yesterday and felt like this has been a long time, that i should have been prepared for this, that i actually had suspected it so i should not be reacting so strongly. (she has been wonderful and i know i need to stop talking about it/give her a break, i think i have done well at that recently, till this latest news.)
is what i am experiencing the norm or not? i did not want to get out of bed today. i did though. i am functioning, going to work, etc. but feel numb/surreal choking back the tears most of the time, wanting to be home instead. i am taking an AD.
i just wonder if it is normal that this is hitting me so hard? has anyone else experienced it? it makes me doubt my growth in this process.. like i have been kidding myself that i am making progress with detaching. instead i am still wrapped up emotionally in every move my W makes.
did i mention that the OW is 13 years younger than I? ouch.
thank you.
hi ng, i can only speak for myself but i've seen our sitch's described as rollercoaster rides so i feel pretty sure it's normal for the up and down action of our emotions.
i was in the gutter when he told me he wanted to divorce. that was in dec. '11. we then spent time together for 5 weeks. it was cold and distant. after i came back home, i went back down. i did not see him daily and my imagination went crazy. i was in panic mode.
then, back up in march until he, again, started talking about divorce. that was the beginning of april.
finally, i decided i would be able to make it without him. it took effort but i went out and GAL, read inspirational quotes every morning, got emails sent to me from religious sites and divorce support groups, etc. all this has helped me to get a positive mindset. now, he is interested in me again. i am NEVER angry with him or in a bad mood. i'm upbeat about my life and myself.
i may be down again but i don't believe it will be as bad if i am.
so, i guess what i'm trying to say is, what you're going through seems normal to me and if your course is anything like mine, you'll be back up but you will have to put some effort into it.
hope this helps.
Thanks so much SS. Your post gave me hope. I am excited that your H is interested again and I admire your strength. I will check out your sitch tonight to learn from you.
I am trying to GAL but today has been tough and I sure don't feel like it. But I need to remember that I have had these days before and they don't last...tomorrow is a new day and I will feel better.
I am having a tougher time with the 180's. I have been able to not call or contact her which is positive.... but I have a struggle not responding to her contacts with me with anger and hurt. I need to stop that and I commit myself to that anew today.
I even tried tapping (EFT) therapy today, followed a video. It actually helped for few moments but I am not sure if it is the power of suggestion. Any one else use it?
Yes what you are going through is normal.
Read this post on
Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1you will find it is similar to the stages of grief.
Be gentle with yourself.
Go back and start the process again.
Breathe, eat, sleep, execrcise, GAL.
It will start to get better I promise.
NG
I found looking at the stages was helpful when I looked back on them.
You never are aware you are going through a stage when you are doing it.
Only when you have been through it can you see
AHA!
That was denial! That stage sVcked I can't deny.
I always paid very close attention to my pain.
Whatever was causing it I killed it.
Thoughts about W? Just stopped it.
What caused that? Talking to her. Learning about what she was doing...
Cure? Detachment. Didn't want to know what or where she was. Stopped snooping. Stopped wacthing FB I actually deleted my FB account.
Then came the pain of seeing a man in the mirror that I didn't like. A man I didn't respect.
I found what I didn't like and killed it.
I changed.
I changed because I recognized there was no one but me responsible for my pain.
I placed boundaries for my W so her choices would not make me feel pain or reflect on my own self worth.
So
What can you do to set yourself on that path?
Thank you, Truegritter and Cadet.
I am working on
1) thought stopping - my tendency to obsess now over the future (the horrible what ifs.......) and also what she is doing now (especially with OW in the picture now and her desire to move forward w/ D papers. I had been doing pretty well at giving her time/space before then.) I am having trouble with this one. My thoughts turn to her almost without a pre-thought. I am having some success at turning my mind to other things, but I need to GAL more so I have more to occupy my mindspace.
2) meditation and reading Buddhist philosophy to help me with my anxiety and w/ letting go.
3) i need to stop talking about her so much. at this point i think it just prolongs the obsession and pain.
4) i need to GAL more.... beyond my comfort zone and meet new people. i have a core group of friends but i have not gone beyond them much. Last night, I did, I went out with someone I know a little through work and her friend.
5) i am off of fb which is good for not trying to know what she is doing. but i also need to stop checking my email as much.
6) i have looked in the mirror but i realized after reading your note, TG, that i have not done much about the things i want to change. the top of the list is to be more confident socially and meet more people. i am putting that here so i feel more accountable, to make it harder to put off and off and off
7) i started a vision board of who i want to be and what i want in my life. i need to continue to add to it.
she sent me an email with some questions she needed answered for the D papers...questions about our property, etc. i assume that i answer them? i know. cadet, that you suggested that i don't help her with the D, but i am not sure what you meant by that. won't she just get angry if i don't provide what she needs?
thanks also for the stages information, i feel as if i bounce around between anger, denial and depression.... i know that i need to learn how to detach more to get to acceptance.
i imagine myself with 25mlc's confidence, saying that my W is a fool to leave me and to think that someone else can match up to me.. and even if she never realizes it, i know it.
she sent me an email with some questions she needed answered for the D papers...questions about our property, etc. i assume that i answer them? i know. cadet, that you suggested that i don't help her with the D, but i am not sure what you meant by that. won't she just get angry if i don't provide what she needs?
YUP she might get angry.
What is she going to DO.
DIVORCE YOU?
Mirror work - why do you feel compelled to do whatever she asks?
Are you scared she will get ANGRY?
That she will divorce YOU?
That you will be abandoned?
In a controlling relationship it takes two.
The controller and the enabler.
Which one are you?
180's - start with not providing what she NEEDS.
She needs to grow up on her own.
Not you helping her to do it.
After your divorce are you going to provide her with any NEEDS?
Maybe you can run over to her house and cut her lawn, do her laundry, clean her house.
Do I make my point?
Are these questions only you can answer or is it information that's readily available to her and it's just easier to ask you?
Hi Cadet and labug, Thanks for the posts.
I am the only one who has access to the information she needs for the forms. I am not worried about making her angry, I made her plenty angry during the negotiation of the settlement.
I feel it looks as if I am desperate/clinging (which I have been many times during this process) and controlling (which she has said I was during the relationship.) I think if I am not cooperative, her anger will make filing easier for her emotionally.
I feel that being cooperative shows that I know I will be okay no matter what and that I am respecting her right to live her own life and make her own choices.
Your thoughts? I guess I am confused Cadet as to what I would be accomplishing by not being cooperative.
I think if I am not cooperative, her anger will make filing easier for her emotionally.
That's exactly where I'm at with my h.
Thanks for dropping in HIW. How are you deciding to handle it? ((( ))))
Your thoughts? I guess I am confused Cadet as to what I would be accomplishing by not being cooperative.
There is a difference between being cooperative and doing HER work.
Forgive me NG, but I can't remember if you are legally married.
IF SO, then SHE can get all the answers to anything she needs.
Maybe she should have thought about getting her ducks a little more in a row BEFORE SHE LEFT.
I know it seems cold, but Cadet is right... she needs to grow up on her own. She needs to do this alone.
She wants you to help her as her spouse....
.... but she chose to leave.
I don't think there has been a single case of a WAS NOT cake-eating slightly.
You need to stop that.
... And as hard as it may feel... allowing her to feel what it is to TRULY be on her own (both good and bad) is the loving thing to do..
..for both of you.
((( )))
Thank you, Val.
As always, you give me a lot to think about. We are legally married, which is sad, because if we D and things change later, we can not currently get married again in California. (although, to be honest, this brutal D and settlement process has made me wonder about marrying ever again.. )
From the questions W asked, I think she is trying to file in the state she is in now, which has a 6 months residency requirement to file (she has only lived there 2 weeks!) and at present, I don't think it allows gay and lesbian couples married in other states to D. I'm assuming that I let her figure that out on her own?
Any advice on how I tell her that I am not helping?
Well there are lots of ways to go about it.
One - you can ignore her.
Two - You can email her and say that you are really busy so if she needs to get the info, she needs to find another way.
Three - This seems to be a popular response on the board.
"W - I accept that you want this D. I do not. I will not stop you in filing, but I will not aide you in anyway during this process".
Yes - You're wife will most likely get angry and ANY of those responses.
Get used to it. She is all about her... anything that is not about her will upset her.
Also - Give yourself time to process everything. Start initiating the 48 hr rule to all responses.
((( )))
Thank you Val and Cadet.
You make a lot of sense. Thank you for helping me get it.
I need to let her feel what it is like to be on her own.
I will use #3.
btw, I just picked up a book on codependency at the library.. thanks for the lesson today
Yes I agree with Val, she did a better job of explaining it to you.
NG this is hard stuff, it makes no sense.
That is why DB works.
It is counterintuitive and not what most people would choose to do in most normal relationships.
You are no longer in a normal relationship.
So you can no longer think that way.
Sorry, but she is now the enenmy.
That is why you need to detach.
It is hard to think of someone you love so much as being the enenmy, but it can be done.
You take your love, pack it up and put it away.
Then maybe in the future you can take it out and look at it again.
Not right now.
Oh library is a great place!
Find out about interlibrary loans.
You can get every book you need to read for free.
I can also suggest Susan B Anderson, A Journey from abandonment to healing. There is also a link for a website for this book for inner child test, but you will need to find it yourself. Try google.
Thanks again Cadet and Val for all your wisdom and support.
The other concern I thought of last night was the financial settlement, which we agreed to via email (nothing signed.)
If W gets angry with me about not providing her with the information (my drivers license, my place of birth, and mortgage info) do I take the risk of her reopening the settlement and asking for more?
(I am in a much better financial position than she is due to investments, etc which I had pre-marriage, which should be separate property, but I would rather not re-open that conversation)
Thank you.
Hi Grace!
Thanks for posting on my thread! Im glad to know that some things that I've posted has helped you. It helps to read others posts. I know it does me.
So I've just read through yours, and it's helped me. Your WAW sounds like my WAH. And yes we LBS go through a PTSD of sorts. It's horrible, and I feel for you! I know, I really know how it is.
I agree with Val and Cadet. Time to set boundaries and stick to them. Warning: This is when they get really pissy! Especially if you've been rather accomodating through the relationship... like I always was. This is a good 180 because you need to stand firm and not allow the cake eating. Now that a year has passed for me post bomb, I can look back at my boundary setting and find it comical. I wanted to choke XH at the time, but Im telling you it's funny.
Remember this, which is the hardest part. THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU... IT'S ALL ABOUT HER RIGHT NOW. It's so hard to remember this as they point the finger at you and all your faults, at the same time take up with another person. Dealing with the rejection is so hard.
Thank you, Kimmerz, for stopping in and for looking into my sitch. I appreciate your input and am planning on letting my W know that I will not help her with the D.
I expect that my W will get mad but I also know that it is a boundary that I need to set for me.
She has made all the decisions the last few months... to not go to therapy, to separate, to not talk about things, to start a new relationship, to move out of state, to file... with no concern about how I might feel or how any of it impacts me.
and yet, I was willing to go against that which I believe in, our M, to not upset her.
yes, you all are right, i need to 180.
it gets confusing though, when to act "as if" I am fine no matter what and when to stand up for the M.
recently, she told me that she advised a friend to go to therapy with her husband...
wth...why did she not go to therapy for our M then?!?!?!
she admits that we both reacted too much once the sitch started... and that pushed things further and further along...and yet she won't even slow it down...to stop and think for a minute.
she barrels ahead with the OW and D.
why the apparent CONTRADICTIONS? is that MLC?
WAS contradict themselves. They are on the own emotional rollercoaster as well.
It's always easier to give advice then to take it.
And best not to mind read either. Trust me.. it will drive you crazy.
When it comes to acting as if.. vs.. standing up for your marriage. It is not a "one of the other" deal.
You can totally do both.
Standing up for your marriage shows strength.
Not allowing this pain to paralyze your growth and happiness is showing strength.
And being a strong, confident woman is very attractive.
Thank you, Val. I needed to read this post again today. I haven't felt very strong, attractive or confident the last few days. I have allowed finding out about the OW and that W is moving forward quickly w/ D filing to really knock me off course. I have felt panicked and depressed the last few days.
But I am working hard at getting back on course. I am forcing myself to GAL. I am exercising more and am being more consistent with meditation and reading.
I tried an Episcopalian gay friendly church on Sunday and thought it was nice but formal.
I sent my W the note as suggested (#3) After talking w/ my C, I answered some leftover questions on the financial settlement issues, but used #3 to respond to requests for info she already had, if she would look/research.
I am fighting a temptation to call her today. When does this get easier? Is it normal that I should feel so badly this far along in the process?
I am fighting a temptation to call her today.
When does this get easier?
Is it normal that I should feel so badly this far along in the process?
Don't call, post or read here instead.
It gets easier as TIME goes along but this is VERY hard stuff.
Yes it is NORMAL what you are feeling and you are not very far along in the process at all.
Be gentle with yourself and lower your expectations for FIXING yourself too.
It will happen, but you have to go back to my first post and remember that you have this AWESOME gift of TIME that I keep telling everyone about.
Of course most people want to return the GIFT but unfortunatley there is a policy against that.
You are doing fine NG, good job on the excercising and working on your self.
It will start to get better, I promise.
Thank you, Cadet. I have stopped myself from calling/writing/texting.
I think I have been working too hard on myself and that is adding to my depression. My C said that I am a classic high achiever and when I set a goal I go after it hard.
Looking at all the things I want to change begins a cycle of blaming myself and getting stuck in "should ofs" instead of looking for ways to move forward.
I need more fun, less seriousness right now. But I sure do wish the time gift had a better return policy.
Thanks again, Cadet, for caring. It means a lot.
NG,
It's pretty typical for LBSers to over-analyze and work really hard at changing ourselves...
... we are the only ones we CAN change.
But the mindset needs to be "This is what I realized I don't like about myself".
My w told me early on that I was too negative and selfish.
She was spot on with my negativity and although she contributed to it greatly.. it was still my choice to change me...
... and at first I did it so she would see, but then I started doing it because it was who I wanted to be.
I wanted to positive and loving with or without her.
The challenge becomes when the WAS is just spewing BS vs. truth. Overtime I learned that although my w was right about me being negative.. she was full of crap about me being selfish.
I guess my point being is that it's hard to see all of this when you are deeply hurting and feel desperate to get your w back.
But take your w out of the equation for one second. Envision who you would like NG to be... as a person, as a partner..
... now tell us.. who is that person??