Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: PrinceChristian Divorce & Depression - 03/15/12 06:03 PM
Hi Everyone,

I have been browsing the forum for several weeks now and have found lots of good advice to help me, especially the 180 info. So I joined and am now a member. Thanks to all for sharing.

To be brief, my situation is as follows: 28yo male, 24yo wife, 5yr relationship, 3yo son, 3yrs living together, married only 5 months, she is a part-time server, I work full-time with day job in marketing, also managing partner of startup company with mostly out of town weekend work, although only twice a month for me.

Separation #1(days) was early Feb 2011, her choice, citing increased lack of affection/love and the seemingly non-interest in marriage. Odd thing was that I already had the ring and was waiting on Valentine's Day, which was several days later, to pop the question. So I did and we planned for a summer wedding.

Separation #2(weeks) was late Apr 2011, her choice, citing the same stagnant lack of affection/love. We opted for counseling and strengthening our faith. Reconciled weeks later. Things improved a lot.

We joined a church, started going more often, and eventually got married in courthouse Oct 2011. Things were going very well. Love and affection, although weren't perfect, greatly improved. Also I reduced my out of town work to once a month, even taking the family with me then.

Fast forward, two months of no out of town work later, to mid/late Jan 2012, we were planning a big wedding ceremony for the summer, I was continually affectionate more than I use to be. Everything seemed OK! Or so I thought...

A week later, first week of Feb, she wrote me a letter stated that she was not feeling loved by me and that she was not pleased intimately! Wow, I thought all was well. I admit that the following week was crucial, but I didn't value her feelings and chose not to do anything different to help resolve her feeling this way intimately. Big mistake, weekend before Valentine's day she seemed upset but said all was OK.

Then on valentine's day she got me a gift, then I gave her one and she was very dry in accepting it. I knew something was wrong, we talked she stated the same issues and that she no longer cared anymore but that she wasn't leaving. Few days later she came home, stated she was done, what plans should we make about our son, and that she wanted divorce without ANY emotions at all.

I begged and pleaded to no avail. We have been separated since then, Feb 18, 2012, although we still live together. I have asked her to reconsider and go to God about it. She stated she's not going to anyone and isn't changing her mind. She works most evenings, and a few nights a week she gets home, change clothes and goes to one of two of her only friends left. I immediately thought she was lying/had someone else and would check phone records and follow her at first but have stopped and left her in God's hands. Currently in a successful 180 mode for 2 weeks now.

Two weeks ago after going out she came home drunk, and hugged me while on couch and kept saying she's sorry. I took her to bed, attempted to be intimate to no avail. Again 1 week ago she came home drunk, layed with me and kept stating she hates me, and that I've screwed her up for life and that she will never love again and that she gets lonely. I took her to bed and we were intimate. Next day she apologized and said she doesn't want that to ever happen again.

Then a few days ago while on couch she text me stating she cries to sleep every night, and daily thinks about getting back together but don't think it will work and doesn't want to waste time. Also stated she is lonely and feels lost, then asked me to pray for her. I simply stated I know how she feels and that I always pray for her.

She stopped going to church after split, stopped talking to a couple friends, when parents found out, stopped talking to them as much, and has told me that all her friends have been telling her to reconcile. She seems to be in full rebellion mode and I simply ask all reading to pray for her as well.

I learned that I have been angry with her and haven't communicated it, instead allowing my anger to subconsciously affect my affection and love towards her. I didn't like when she went out to party, her smoking, or her disrespectful behavior towards me(texting/facebook/twitter all the time while we are talking and even in bed!) so when she would try to be intimate I would not be into it mentally and at times would even push her away. I knew I was attracted to her looks still but could not figure out why I was so uninterested in being more affectionate and intimate with her until she broke up last time and God revealed it in a dream I had.

To the subject topic...

Her past: One instance of sexual abuse as child, 5 younger siblings with more privileged upbringing, pregnancy at 16(baby born dead), physical abuse by father of child that died, high school dropout, attempted rape as adult, many friends over years of gay/bi/lesbian lifestyles, one arrest for shoplifting as teenager.

Her present: Diagnosed with anger-management 2 years ago citing past abuse physical and sexual, and depression 2 years ago citing death of child, and resentment of parents for siblings better upbringing.

My question, depression and divorce? Any thoughts, comments, or opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for reading and sorry so long.
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/16/12 12:53 PM
Also, if anyone could give me any advice on how to continue being successful at a 180? Because it gets hard at times... Thanks...
Posted By: cdavis Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/16/12 06:43 PM
I am dealing with a depressed wife that is asking for a divorce also but my situation is a lot different. It sounds like have had a VERY rocky relationship that is going to be very difficult to work through.
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/16/12 08:19 PM
Welcome to the board and sorry that you find yourself here. Post often as you will be in moderation. It is important that you read the divorce remedy ASAP. I will post Sandis 37 rules to start. I would stop being intimate until things are better.


1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.

21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).

27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.

30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.

33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
Posted By: MrBond Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/16/12 09:34 PM
Has she seen a C for her past abuse issues? Have you looked into it? Have you flat out ever asked her how she wants to be loved? Check out the 5 Love Languages. That's a good starting point.
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/17/12 10:20 PM
Thanks guys for responding. Will definitely stay clear of being intimate. What reasons should I not be intimate with her, if she initiates it? She wants a divorce because of lack of intimacy. A 180 would be being very intimate, at her request wouldn't it?

Yes we saw counselor. That's how she got the diagnosis. But we only went a few times. She felt better and we stopped. BIG mistake I know now because all the issues of her wanting to leave, the easy way out, seem to be a direct result of a reoccurred depression. I looked into it all after she called it quits. A bit too late I realize. Just took her feelings for granted unfortunately. Now she isn't willingto seek counseling or speak to anyone so I'm simply being patient. We read the love languages together. I knew her language. Just didn't care enough to show her. And as stated early, I was subconsciously angry at her and it affected my affection and the way I loved her.
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/18/12 04:48 AM
What do you mean by very rocky relationship? And why is yours different?

Thanks
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/18/12 07:40 AM
Never leave the bed. I think you should work back towards that. If your wife does not want to sleep with you, she can pick a different spot. You need your strength and sleep to work on saving your marriage.

It has been asked if you know your wife's love languages.

Do you?

Does she know yours?

I ask this because you stated that you blocked yourself.

She has had a very tough life. Very tough.

Have you read any guy books ? Like Hold on to your nuts ?

When times were good in your mind. What did she mention?

What did you feel ?

No matter what. Always offer a safe haven. With respect and boundaries. Do not be afraid to call out bad behavior. Do not be afraid to get up and walk away when you feel uncomfortable. But always be respectful.

You mentioned that a 180 would be intimate.

But what is intimate to you?

What is intimate to your wife ?

You state your subconsciously angry at her?

That is a paradox.

Why?

You have hinted at lack of respect when being alone.

Does your wife know that you want to spend that time together alone?
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/26/12 08:31 PM
She is still in full rebellion mode guys. Odd thing is that I'm worried about things because of her depressive history. I KNOW she is still in a depressive state but realize its nothing I can do to help. Since Feb 18 when she called it quits, she has washed dishes not once, or cleaned up the house at all, I've been doing it everyday since. She never cleans up behind herself or our son and when I get home everyday from work the house is generally messed up. She stays up late till 2-3am and gets up late with our son late(11-12noon) everyday, so when I get home he's tired and ready to take a nap at 5pm when he should have at 12noon when she finally gets up with him. Also 3 nights a week she goes out leaving him with me, mostly Fri and Sat when she goes out dancing till 6am. He wakes up crying for mommy everytime and it kills me. She works in evening so as soon as I get home, she goes to work so we don't see each other hardly at all except when she's passing by the living room to go to the kitchen most nights.

I've been doing very well continually spending loads of time with son, becoming very active in church, and growing spiritually and personally. She even thanked me last week for the things I've been doing so she has definitely taken notice. I haven't cried in over a week. But last evening I overheard her talking to a female friend saying that she feels great and that she is almost over me and that she feels good inside and out. The audacity of her saying these things while in the next room kinda got to me and made me feel very sad, so I left the house to grab a movie, just to get away. And cried. I've still been doing the 180 stuff well and will continue to do so.

Just super worried about her feeling 'great' and not even realizing that she is depressed. *Exhales*

Thanks for reading guys. Guess I needed to vent.

Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with a depressive spouse that would require any changes to doing the typical 180 stuff? Also are there any ladies that can offer ANY advice???


Thanks a lot.
Posted By: lifeisart Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/26/12 08:58 PM
She bipolar?
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/27/12 06:04 AM
Originally Posted By: chatterbug
Never leave the bed. I think you should work back towards that. If your wife does not want to sleep with you, she can pick a different spot. You need your strength and sleep to work on saving your marriage.



^^^ I agree with that. I also think that it is just generally bad to leave the marital bed for any reason.

The 37 rules posted by Rick... read them over and over. It is a good set of guidelines to follow as you learn to DB.

Buy and read Divorce Remedy. I'd suggest the chapter on the Last Resort Technique to start.

Sorry that I am cutting straight to my points here PC. Short on time. I am very sorry for what you are going through though. I have been doing this for 16 months now. I understand all too well the pain that you are feeling.

To answer your question as to whether or not any of us have dealt with a depressed spouse... well, in one degree or another, I believe that everyone here has. That's why they become WAS's.

I do see that your W has some very specific issues though. Unfortunately, I don't believe that you can help her right now. She is going to have to work through this herself. You are probably right, she is in rebellion. Anything that you do to try and help her is going to be perceived you trying to control her.

The best thing that you can do is lovingly detach yourself from her, and let her go down the path that she is on. Hopefully, she will come to a point where she realizes that she needs help. If you are still there, maybe she will look to you to help her. But this is going to have to come from her. You cannot force this, nor can you control her thoughts, her feelings, or her choices.

Something that I read here on this board that helped me understand what I wanted to do with my situation, how I wanted to deal with things, and how I wanted to love my W, was the story of the lighthouse. I am reposting it here for you. Maybe it will calm and center you as you embark on this journey.

"The Lighthouse

Your spouse is in huge conflict. The good news is; and the truth is, that they are totally incapable of a healthy relationship with anyone right now. The competition that we believe exists with the Other Person is a shallow, empty reflection of God's light in this world. It is empty and lonely no matter how good the rush.

Their actions are actions that they themselves do not like in themselves right now. Though the need to go back again and again and attempt to prove themselves wrong or right is strong, they do not like what they are doing.

Their actions toward you, the children, the Other Person, and themselves, as well as God, keep them from engaging in any type of real interaction with any real depth and truth.

All they offer are misguided attempts to fill the void that has appeared in their life. Yet the filling is way too fleeting to sustain them and the truth is with them each night he or she lies down, regardless of whom is next to them.

They are the living cliche of 'no matter where you go, there you are.'

They are lost to themselves.

And you stand at that point of being the lighthouse home, even though they create the waves that block their vision from seeing the beacon.

You become the lighthouse. You fill your home with light, calmness and sanctuary.

Just visualize yourself as a lighthouse.

You offer them glimpses into that sanctuary at every chance you get. You invite them toward it. Let them know it is there as much as you can in a most subtle way.

You cannot trust them right now, but you know that, so they can't hurt you right now. They will spend great energy to convince others differently...but you know better.

You show the path by also protecting the children from their painful actions. You fill the children's lives with stability. They deserve it and need it more than anything else.

Do not discuss or powerstruggle with them on irrational movements. Seek out and validate the rational ones with lots of praise for when he or she chooses correctly.

Your spouse is very lonely and sad right now, but that is ok. No one can stay very long in that chaos. Remove yourself from any aspect of participating or adding to the chaos, and eventually they will see that you are the only one who stood with clarity and reason when they needed it most.

Be the lighthouse."

Hmmm... glad that I actually reread that myself. Good luck PC. Be patient and strong.

Denver
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/27/12 09:49 AM
Yes she is. I forgot what stage of depression hers is called but it includes being bipolar among other things. The 3 times total that she has broken up with me have all been similar. Day before, "love you, have a good day at work!" Next day, "this isn't working, I'm not happy, I don't want to be with you anymore, im moving out, what are we going to do about our son." First two times, never moved out, was separated for a week, and a few weeks respectively. First time she got back with me on her own. Second time she listened to her spiritual godmother about working things out. This time, still hasn't moved out, and have been separated for a month and 9 days. And isn't listening to anyone. I simply don't know how to deal with a depressed spouse concerning busting a divorce. With her volatile emotions I guess that it'll just take more time so I will continue to be patient.

Again any ladies feel free to chime in!???
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/27/12 10:10 AM
OK. I almost missed this part. Why shouldn't I leave the bed??? Its hers. Lol. She bought it. And wouldn't that create conflict? Please someone quickly explain this to me in depth. Including potential consequences such as her pushing more towards leaving by not getting her way.
Thanks a lot Denver!

Also. I meant has anyone dealt with a diagnosed depressed spouse, with prescribed pills, etc..?

@chatterbug, thought I mentioned why I was subconsciously angry. I kept things to myself that bothered me about her. Then would 'get back' at her later through lack of affection and denial of intimacy(sex). While doing these things I did not realize I was angry or being bitter.
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/27/12 05:32 PM
Originally Posted By: PrinceChristian
OK. I almost missed this part. Why shouldn't I leave the bed??? Its hers. Lol. She bought it. And wouldn't that create conflict? Please someone quickly explain this to me in depth. Including potential consequences such as her pushing more towards leaving by not getting her way.
Thanks a lot Denver!


In a M, items such as beds are jointly owned regardless of who actually purchased them. Who does your house belong to? You kitchen table? I don't know, I'd strongly consider staying in your bed, in your bedroom, and ultimately, your house if there ends up being a physical S.

You have to stand your ground on some things PC. This does not mean that you have to become upset or raise your voice. You just explain to her calmly what you are going to do. She may become upset, but that is her choice and there is nothing that you can do to control that.

She has to see that there are consequences for the choices that she is making.

Denver
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/27/12 08:12 PM
You do not leave the bed because it is the marriage bed. Are you leaving the marriage ? No. So go back into it. Plus it is a place where you can get a good night sleep. Or a good night staring at the ceiling.

You are not creating conflict here. You are making a choice. Declaring an action and acting on it. If she decides to fight you on it. Then she is making a choice for conflict. You say what your going to do and act. Or you act. But you are going to reclaim some pride in yourself.

Now another problem your having is that you are avoiding anything with her and being all mickey mouse like. Your bending over backwards and showing you have no spine.

Bad behavior is bad behavior. You need to call your wife out on it. If she is not pulling her weight do not cover for her. It is unreasonable for one person to pull all the weight. So communicate that. She is an adult. She lives in the house as well. She needs to do her part.

You need to be a man here and explain this. Go read hold onto your nuts or any other self help books for men. No more Mr. Nice Guy etc...

She is showing you that she has no respect for you. And you are showing her you have no respect for yourself.

Do not argue over it. Explain it. And then only act. As she will test you.

With ladybug I called her out on it. And she said she would help out. She did not. So informed her to sleep in another room and use the adjourning bathroom. I did not clean it. I did not clean up after her. I cleaned the areas I used. And just verified that her areas did not have anything that would attract bugs etc...

See your being a nice guy who uses passive aggressive behaviors. One of your main growths should be how to overcome this and never do it again. It poisons all relationships.

Do not reward bad behavior. Stop being her friend. Being a lighthouse means being a husband not a wimpy man.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/27/12 08:33 PM
Now the next part.

This is something you really need to figure out.

Your wife is bi-polar and has depression issues. You really need to determine if you can deal with this for the rest of your life. If you feel that this is a safe environment for your child.

For if it is not then you need to take the steps to protect your child. You are the adult here.

You need to learn everything about her mental issues. Every word every name, Find support sites that talk about it.

If you have doctors who are treating her then you need to contact them and let them know what is going on.

If she was on medication and is off it. You need to ask her to go back on it.

For if you want this to work out. You need to learn this and own it. For it will be a life long struggle. And it will break you if you stay the same person you are. If you think staying in this unhealthy relationship because of your son is good for him. It is not. He will grow up and learn the lessons you have taught him.



One other thing. Why do you tolerate her going out dancing to 6 am? This is another place where you need to set a boundary. Do not cover for her here. Do not tip toe around the house cause she was out drinking. Do not make her tea or food. Do not do anything for her. Do not reward bad behavior. Start GALING and get a life on the weekends. Leave the house. She will have to choose between taking care of her son or out drinking all night. You need to let her know that this is unacceptable behavior. Do not leave the light on over night. Turn it off. Let her know with words and actions that you will no longer tolerate this behavior.

If she messes up and does not take care of your son. Call her out on it.

I do hope you are writing all this down. If not. Start. And go back as well.

Cause you may end up needing the written proof. And guard this as close as possible.

And Lock down your finances. Do not let her piss away the money. If she is not paying half towards the bills. Then she needs to start.

Do not support her harmful habits.

IMHO I think you are better off going for full custody of your son and moving on. As she is really messed up.

But I will help you either way. As I understand bi-polar and being Mr. Nice guy.
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/27/12 09:08 PM
Chatterbug is making some good points. However, I cannot agree with advice telling someone that they are or are not better off moving on.

PC obviously loves his W and wants to figure out how to help her though this and save his marriage. That is why he is here.

I'm sure that when PC said his wedding vows, that 'in good times and in bad' were included.

We don't give up on our spouses just because they go through a rough time or because they have issues. We ALL have issues. Would we give up on our children, or our parents, if they had mental health issues. This is no different. In fact, even more important when talking about our spouses. They SHOULD be the most important person in our lives.

This is what unconditional love is all about. And THIS is something that we learn by going through hard times.

PC - You do need to stand up to your W on some things. But you can do this in a loving way. Don't play tit for tat by staking out part of the house that you will keep clean, or by making similar choices that your W is making.

Your W is in pain right now PC. I realize that the words that you hear her speak do not reflect that right now. But remember, we believe zero of what we hear, and only 50% of what we see, in these times.

Being the lighthouse means that you are a rock. That you remain calm and dependable in the face of tremendous adversity. Being the lighthouse means that you remain a safe haven for you W.

You need to decide if you want to exercise the patience necessary to become that lighthouse PC. What are you willing to do and go through for you W? Are you willing to walk through the gates of hell for you W... while not knowing if you can save her or your M?

"There once was a man who was sentenced to 25
years of backbreaking labor. His wrists were tied
to the handle of a huge wheel that was inlaid in
the wall. His job was to turn the wheel 10 hours
 a day.

For years, day in and day out, the prisoner would
 wonder what he was doing with this wheel. What
was the meaning of his work? What was on the
other side of this wall? Was he grinding grain?
 Pulling up water? Moving some sort of conveyor
belt?

For 25 years he contemplated the meaning of his
work, and for 25 years he spun that wheel. It was
 grueling, but he survived.

When his sentence was complete he was released
 from prison. The first thing he did was run to
the other side of the wall to see what he had
been doing all this time.

What did he see?

Nothing!

There was nothing attached to the wheel. For 25
years, 10 hours a day, he was spinning a wheel
for absolutely no purpose.

When the man realized
his true sentence, he collapsed and died.

The prisoner was able to survive 25 years of 
backbreaking labor, but when he realized that it 
was all for nothing, he couldn't survive for 
another moment.

So what's the difference between pain and
 suffering?

Pain has a purpose.

Suffering is true torture because it has no 
meaning.

Pain is bearable. Suffering for no reason is
 devastating."

Denver 
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/27/12 10:49 PM
Denver , Mrs. PC is not in pain right now. Mrs. PC sounds like she has a full on Hypomania. This is dangerous. For all involved. This makes affairs and walk-aways look a walk in the park. Professional help is needed.

Hypomania have a tendancy to drain bank accounts, do dangerous actions that can affect their familys. Lose their jobs and even go to jail over their actions. There can be hypersexuality. There is no checks and balances in risk taking.

There is no purpose to suffering this pain. It creates bitterness.

Until she gets the proper medical and mental attention she will boomerang back and forth between depression and mania until those who love her snap and cannot take it any longer or she just leaves.

As you can see he has been the rock for his wife throughout their marriage. But it keeps leading him down a cheese-less tunnel. Something needs to change.

I do not know your back story sorry about that. As you do not know mine.

But I will state that I did not tit for tat. Adults look after their property. Since she was not capable of that basic function. I called her out on it. I set a boundary with consequences. Her actions were to test me. So I removed her and all her stuff to the guest bedroom. She had the choice to respect the property and the chores. Her choice was to not help out.
Posted By: ShockingStory Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/27/12 11:23 PM
It sounds to me like your wife seriously needs to see a counselor/therapist, and stick with it. My ex was abused when young, had depression and bi-polar issues. When on meds, things were usually good, but unfortunately would think "hey, I'm doing fine" and get off them. Thats when things always went to [censored].
Posted By: labug Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 12:06 AM
Are you a psychologist or psychiatrist?
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 12:28 AM
Originally Posted By: chatterbug
Denver , Mrs. PC is not in pain right now. Mrs. PC sounds like she has a full on Hypomania. This is dangerous. For all involved. This makes affairs and walk-aways look a walk in the park. Professional help is needed.

Hypomania have a tendancy to drain bank accounts, do dangerous actions that can affect their familys. Lose their jobs and even go to jail over their actions. There can be hypersexuality. There is no checks and balances in risk taking.

There is no purpose to suffering this pain. It creates bitterness.

Until she gets the proper medical and mental attention she will boomerang back and forth between depression and mania until those who love her snap and cannot take it any longer or she just leaves.

As you can see he has been the rock for his wife throughout their marriage. But it keeps leading him down a cheese-less tunnel. Something needs to change.

I do not know your back story sorry about that. As you do not know mine.

But I will state that I did not tit for tat. Adults look after their property. Since she was not capable of that basic function. I called her out on it. I set a boundary with consequences. Her actions were to test me. So I removed her and all her stuff to the guest bedroom. She had the choice to respect the property and the chores. Her choice was to not help out.


I'm not a psychologist, so I am very careful about throwing out any kind of diagnosis. IMO, this behavior seems very much in line with typical, selfish, WAS behavior.

I do agree that PC needs to protect himself. I just don't think that I agree as to how he needs to proceed here.

And I also disagree that PC has been the perfect H here. He's clearly stated, and correct me if I am wrong PC, that he has ignored his W's feelings at times, that he has denied her intimacy, and has been subconsciously angry with her. He stated that his W says that she feels lonely. While I have no doubt that her issues are a huge cause here, but one of our goals is to do some self reflection so that we can learn and grow as a result of this tragedy.

So PC - Let's maybe not focus on your W right this second. I'd like to hear more about that stuff. What is your role in this? What could you have done differently or better, if anything?

Denver
Posted By: labug Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 12:30 AM
I was asking chatterbug, sorry for the confusion.
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 12:33 AM
Oh I know Labug. Kind of had the same question.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 12:38 AM
I agree with Denver. Her behavior reflects many WAS's. I understand her past psychological issues, and it seems like she wants to get away from everything rather than dealing with conflict. It seems like whenever she would get into strife in her life, it would bite her in the @$$. So she tries to avoid it.

While it's always good to protect yourself first from what a WAS might do, it's not always as a result of a psychological disorder.

As much as we would often like to think it is.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 05:30 AM
Labug Mrbond, and Denver. If you go back and reread you will see where PC states what his wife has been diagnosed with. It looks like you missed it.

I am neither a psychologist or psychiatrist. If I was I would not be posting on this site.

My background is behavioral neuroscience and electrical engineering. I know a strange combination. 7 years of schooling.

My main worries right now for PC is that he is enabling her hypomania or mania.

I think PC needs to seek out IC help to deal with being a spouse of a person diagnosed with bi-polar disorder.

I also think that he fully does not understand the ramifications of her illness and needs to learn this so he can make the right choice for his life and for his sons life.

Knowledge is strength. And it will help improve his physical and mental health. He cannot be a lighthouse when he does not have enough juice to power the lamp.

But dealing with a bi-polar person. That person has to want to get help. And the spouse needs to truly learn boundaries and have the willpower and strength to enforce them for their well-being.

And Denver. I do not think you fully grasp unconditional love. It is something that is freely given away. Expect nothing in return. It is not dependent upon any other person other than one's own self. It is not dependent upon hard times. It is just love. Plain and simple. I believe that you speak of unconditional dedication. It is something that is confusing to many BS's. Personally I blame it on the BS's own fog that they go through. It is similar to how someone deals with a death. History is rewritten to make the WS a better person than they were. Kind of like an ever repeating bargaining stage within the grief cycle.

I also believe that the self is the most important person in one's life. To be a strong husband or father one must be strong personally first. Put their mental and physical health first. So they can weather the storms because they have built such a strong foundation. And they know deep down inside that they will be OK. This allows them to make difficult choices and not wallow in limbo.

Sorry for the thread take over JC...
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 06:38 AM
Originally Posted By: chatterbug
Labug Mrbond, and Denver. If you go back and reread you will see where PC states what his wife has been diagnosed with. It looks like you missed it.

And Denver. I do not think you fully grasp unconditional love. It is something that is freely given away. Expect nothing in return. It is not dependent upon any other person other than one's own self. It is not dependent upon hard times. It is just love. Plain and simple. I believe that you speak of unconditional dedication. It is something that is confusing to many BS's. Personally I blame it on the BS's own fog that they go through. It is similar to how someone deals with a death. History is rewritten to make the WS a better person than they were. Kind of like an ever repeating bargaining stage within the grief cycle.



I don't think that we missed that she has been diagnosed with depression and bi-polar disorder. But I do not recall anything about hypomania being mentioned other than by you. Many, many WAS's and MLC WAWs suffer from depression and/or bi-polar disorder. These forums are littered with examples. So I'm not sure yet whether or not there is anything all that out of the ordinary going on with PC's W. She is clearly demonstrating typical, selfish, WAW behavior. So I'm not sure that this situation should be treated any differently than others.

I completely disagree with your take on unconditional love... not your definition; I agree that it is love freely given with out expectation or condition of something in return. So we don't stop loving someone, or give up on them, just because they are not giving us what we want, just because they are making choices that may be hurting us. Loving someone unconditionally means that we are will to stick by them, maybe from afar for a bit, and allow them to learn and grow on the path that they are choosing. Unconditional love means that we are still there once they have done that.

Does this sometimes lead to an LBS wallowing in limbo for a period of time... of course it does. Someone who chooses to love another person, whether it be a spouse, child, or even friend, is willing to do that for the very reason of unconditional love. It is they type of love that all of would love to have in our lives. Knowing that someone is going to love us and be by our side no matter what happens to us, or what internal strife that we might go through during our life.

Unconditional dedication may be a bi-product of unconditional love if one chooses. IMO, they go hand in hand. It has nothing to with an LBS fog or the LBS rewriting history. In fact, I'd argue that unconditional dedication to our spouse is what we all signed up for when we took our marriage vows. I don't recall my M vows saying "I vow to love you through sickness and health, through good times and bad, till death do us part... UNLESS you make a choice that hurts me.'

I would never argue that anyone should wallow in limbo beyond their personal capacity or at the detriment of their own long term happiness. But I see very, very few people even on this board that are at that point. And certainly, PC is not at that point. He's had a WAS for, what, a month?

I just believe that we are here on this forum to encourage people to work towards learning about such concepts as unconditional love, towards learning about their own shortcomings as a spouse, and to learn strategies that MAY help them save their marriages. We are not here to say, "your W is messed up, so you should move on." THAT is a VERY personal decision that only the LBS spouse themselves can and should make.

It seems to me that had you familiarized yourself with my own sitch 16 months ago, that you would have been encouraging me to walk away from it and to move on. Had that happened, and had I listened, I would not be where I am today. And that would have been a much worse tragedy than me having to go through some pain, and wallow in limbo, for a few months of my life.

Denver

Denver
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 06:47 AM
and yeah PC, sorry if this seems like a thread jack. It happens sometimes when posters find themselves disagree with one another. I experienced a lot of quibbling amongst posters at various times in my sitch.

My best advice on how to deal with it is to read it all, take what you believe to be good advice that is applicable to our situation... and throw out the rest.

And some of these concepts, such as "unconditional love", are going to have different definitions from different people. They are concepts that we each define by our own personal beliefs and experiences. You have to define them for yourself if they are ideas that you endeavor to learn about. There are no real right or wrong answers. IMO anyway.

Denver
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 11:22 AM
Thanks guys for all the help! Denver you seem to be hitting the nail on the head. For better of worse means that I will be here regardless. I believe I have stated all my faults in the marriage already. Subconscious/imploding anger. Almost all of my faults were a direct subconscious reflection of her actions. Aside from being super affectionate such as holding hands, etc. But according to her it ALL boiled down to intimacy(sex, cuddling). First 4 years sex and intimacy was great. She never was a faker type. She is vocal in expressing her pleasure or lack thereof. Nothing seemingly changed with her. It was me that apparently started getting fed up with her actions(going out dancing once a week, staying out((6am)) late when she does go, her constant need to be socially connected via facebook/twitter/texting updates hourly at least, her occasional smoking and heavy drinking when she did go out) about a year and half ago. I guess i couldnt take it anymore but instead of continuing to complain about those things to her, i chose to harbour my feelings inside, big mistake because it turned into anger without my knowledge. So when she first revealed she was starting to feel unhappy Jan 2011, i understood then. But every attempt to heal her deep wound was bandages on a wound that needed stitches. And apparently finding stitches was not a priority for me because i thought bandages(becoming more affectionate, having more sex) would be fine. But the growth in my affection and intimacy from Jan 2011-Jan 2012 was not sustained because stitches(the root of my affection/intimacy issues) were not in place, hence the two subsequential breakups. And also the last one. But God made me understand the root of my issues, something I didn't know before she separated. My imploding anger actually exploded into my love and affection towards my wife. But when things are reconciled I definitely wont be the same man as before. Which in return will help our marriage all together. Also will go back to counselor the day after we reconcile! And will NOT stop as her treatment for depression is vital for any growth in our marriage.

We don't have a joint bank acct. I handled all our finances. She has only worked the first six months of our relationship, 1 year after giving birth to our son, and the past year. 2 1/2 years total of our 5 years together. She gave mostly all of her money to me to contribute to the home.

But I'm still not fully understanding. Yes I know I need to stand my ground, etc but what about the 180 STUFF!? The old me was stubborn I never backed down, always mentioned and pointed out her flaws or when dishes weren't done or when the house was messy.

One thing I will say guys is that I am fully into my faith, although far from perfect. I have submitted myself first in loving my wife the Godly way, and will draw info, advice, on doing this from many places including here. But I will not follow a DB technique that doesn't line up with where God would lead me. Most of the 180s seem fine though. But I've expressed to her about dishes and cleaning already. If she doesn't want to do these things then I will. Happily. Don't see any good at patronizing her at this point. Will definitely attempt to reclaim the bed even though I don't mind sleeping on couch. We are both on our lease. Our son sleeps in our bedroom though and if she resolves to sleeping elsewhere he will definitely follow. Why should he suffer though? He loves his mom very much as well and cries for her when she is gone at night. I just figured it was in HIS best interest that she was in bed where HE would be comfortable. What helps me do the 180 stuff well is my faith in God. God hates divorce. God blesses marriage. And Gods word says that if you abide in him and he in you then ask for what you want and you shall receive. His word also states Agape love. Loving your wife without expecting anything in return. And if she is not submitting to you or following him then let YOUR actions show God and he will work on her. The 180 stuff is good and inline with this. But anyway..

I appreciate the advice from all, will filter it through God and apply accordingly.

I'm NOT giving up on my wife. Ever. I will keep God first. I will continue the 180s and anything I can within Gods grace to ensure I better myself, and continue to be strong and the guiding light for my son and my wife. Will keep them strong in prayer and through my Godly ordained actions and thoughts.
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 11:30 AM
Oh wow, I didn't see all the responses. Am on mobile. Well...

@chatter, I am fine now sir. My lighthouse is my lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The strongest source of power I know! I was awakened after that dream I had. And have been OK mentally since. Yes I get sad at times, and feel down, but it is very temporary and never shown to spouse or son...
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 11:52 AM
@Chatter, what do you think I do to enable her???

Also, I am in counseling myself already to better myself and understand how to deal with her better. I think you missed a few things chatter. I HAVE been educating myself on her condition even before the last breakup. The problem I had was that I didn't care that much if she changed or got better before. I knew of her behavior and her issues! And about things I could be doing to help her. My anger with her simply didn't allow me to care enough to help her get better. I completely understand your concern with her depression and am very grateful for your care. I know you understand the worst case scenario with depression and are concerned with me, and our son but as far as I know, her case is more mild. I do not believe setting excessive boundaries etc is helpful at this point. Already tried that. Again, I am doing well. Of course I get in sad moods from time to time but I am already strengthened through Christ mentally and physically. I understand the focus on self but right now I am OK and will continue to be. All the great advice has been helpful.
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 11:57 AM
Also again, women feel free to join in! Am very curious as to a woman's opinion concerning my situation...
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 03:32 PM
@Denver. The Words were

IMHO I think you are better off going for full custody of your son and moving on. As she is really messed up.

But I will help you either way. As I understand bi-polar and being Mr. Nice guy.

IMHO I think

No where did I say. You should. So you are mistaken there. Do not add thoughts or words to what I wrote.

Your words of

Originally Posted By: Denver_2010

It seems to me that had you familiarized yourself with my own sitch 16 months ago, that you would have been encouraging me to walk away from it and to move on. Had that happened, and had I listened, I would not be where I am today. And that would have been a much worse tragedy than me having to go through some pain, and wallow in limbo, for a few months of my life.


You do not know me. So do not use conjecture to paint a broad stroke of who you think I am. It's insulting, degrading and serves no purpose in this conversation. The only purpose it severs is to back up your fallacy of what I wrote earlier and to dismiss my communication with PC with an irrelevant conclusion.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 03:32 PM
@PC I saw a red flag when you just mentioned the bi-polar in a passing conversation. To me I wanted to clarify that you understood the illness , its symptoms and its ramifications. I was also looking for clarification on that you were getting IC and support to learn to deal with this illness.

I think you enable Mrs. PC because you do not set boundaries on behavior that is unacceptable to you. Mrs. PC has decided to check out of the shared responsibilities of maintaining a home and taking care of her son.

180's are not doing everything for a short period of time.
Are you going to do every single dish from here on out if Mrs. PC decides to never do one again?

A 180 here would be to realize that you are not pulling your share of the responsibilities around the house and start to help out. She cooks , you clean. She washes , you dry. She puts in the dishwasher, you put them away. She cleans the bathroom on a Tuesday. You do it on a Thursday.

Another part of that 180 would be to admit that in the past you did not help carry the load on household chores but now you are working towards carrying an equal load.

That is a 180.

You have acknowledged Mrs. PC's communication to you that she wants you to step up here. You did not counter with complaints or criticisms.

That is a 180.

Which I believe you are doing.

But this is a two way street. Doing it all breaks rule 4, 8. Pointing out that you are doing it all breaks rule 34. And since it is not feasible to do this for the remainder of your marriage you will break rule 37.

Another 180 you are doing is working on your flaws. And here is another opportunity for a 180, fix these flaws for yourself. Become a better man so you can become a better husband and a better father. Learn more about passive aggressive behaviors and work on correcting them.

Learn more about boundaries. For boundaries are not to control others. They are for you and you alone. They communicate to others what you find acceptable and unacceptable. They also relay what actions you will follow when a boundary is broken.

A good resource to learn about boundaries is the story of Coach and Greek on this site. Go back and read that story. Also go read the many previous topics on boundaries.

I highly recommend that you continue with your research and knowledge on Mrs. PC's illness. Continue to learn about 180's and boundaries.

Its a beautiful day. So go enjoy it.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 06:25 PM
"I forgot what stage of depression hers is called but it includes being bipolar among other things."

This is the only place where he mentions his W being bipolar. It does not specifically say that she was diagnosed with being bipolar. Big difference.

In terms of you bringing up the fact that it's a sickness when you aren't a medical professional and really don't have any data from the W's side, doesn't make your "diagnoses" correct.

PC, your W is exhibiting many of the tendencies WASs do. I'm not saying that there isn't an underlying psychosis or whatever, but it's important for you to understand that it's not unique and can be overcome.

To put it another way, if you really believe that it's some kind of mental illness, then you might as well sign the papers now because there is nothing you can do about it.

So if you want to save your M, start looking at the situations. There are ways to get through this.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 07:08 PM
Her present: Diagnosed with anger-management 2 years ago citing past abuse physical and sexual, and depression 2 years ago citing death of child, and resentment of parents for siblings better upbringing.

I forgot what stage of depression hers is called but it includes being bipolar among other things.


I know I am not a medical professional nor are you.
But why take it as script?
Certain words should not be tossed around lightly. Bi-polar is one of them.
Posted By: labug Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 09:24 PM
PC, re., W's diagnosis. If you're concerned seek advice from someone knowledgeable about the diagnosis. You can't make her do anything she doesn't want to do no matter the diagnosis, and it's really not your role. We all have self-determination unless deemed incompetent.

This is a board for support of people who are attempting to DB according to the priciples set forth in the MWD books. Medical and psych advice should come from your health care provider.

For all you know we're a bunch of pimply-faced 16yr olds sitting in our parent's basements.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 09:46 PM
"I know I am not a medical professional nor are you."

Never said I was and don't even bother playing that card. You were the one who mentioned you studied behavioral neuroscience. It implied that you knew what you were talking about.

"But why take it as script?"

No one said that he had to take it as "script" it's another option.

"Certain words should not be tossed around lightly. Bi-polar is one of them."

Have you read alot of the threads? Almost every LBS has accused their WAS of being "bi-polar" due to the mood swings, violent and destructive tendencies that seem "out of character".

PC, bottom line is that you see how your sitch currently stands based off the current and past circumstances and come up with a strategy or action that will produce positive steps.

Remember, baby steps. They may take awhile, but they will come. You just have to watch out for them.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/28/12 10:20 PM
I have read a ton of stitches Mrbond. When I was active on here before, I knew you as Stuck808, I remember when you switched the name.
Posted By: labug Re: Divorce & Depression - 03/29/12 04:13 AM
Well Prince, you've stated what you want and what you are willing to do. It will be a long haul as it seems she's medicating her problems with friends and drinking. She married and had a child very young. Maybe she feels like she missed something. She also has a lot of past trauma she seems unwilling to work on right now, which is not uncommon. Have you read much about the fallout from child sexual abuse?

The best you can do is work on yourself take care of your S as best you can. Are you familiar with Henry Cloud and John Townsend? Google them. They have a great book entitled Boundaries that you might find helpful. Some churches offer a class based on their work, you might see if it's offered in your area.

Best of luck.
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 04/06/12 06:27 PM
Thanks labug! Situation still the same, but I'm doing okay still. Will pick up those books.
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 04/06/12 06:30 PM
Thanks MrBond as well. Very simple and direct!
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 04/06/12 06:48 PM
@ chatter

Thanks for all the advice especially concerning researching her illness. In response to your opinion concerning me enabling her. I'm still not understanding what you are trying to say. How can I set boundaries when she is in complete rebellion mode? Yes I will continue to do dishes everytime until she decides to help or even if she doesn't. Btw, there is no cooking, cleaning, etc, or anything that we do together anymore. As I mentioned before, I work from 8-5pm, daily. She works from 5pm-10pm every evening. We hardly even see each other let alone doing anything. She hardly ever cooks anymore anyway even for herself, just fast food. How can I admit to not carrying an equal load and strive to do better? Remember, she doesn't want to be with me anymore.
Another part of that 180 would be to admit that in the past you did not help carry the load on household chores but now you are working towards carrying an equal load. I understand the 180s but with our scare time together the only options I have are to clean the house(which I didn't do a lot before) and taking care of myself even more.

(Doing it all breaks rule 4, 8.) I never do this.
Pointing out that you are doing it all breaks rule 34.) Or this..

(Learn more about boundaries.) Well I'm here to do that. Lol.

Again thanks a bunch buddy.
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 04/06/12 07:25 PM
Update:

Hello All,

My wife and I are still separated. And still living together. Nothing much has changed on the surface, but I've been doing well. Hanging with son more, becoming more involved in church, and spending time/fellowship with my family and close friends.

She has still been partying every Friday-Saturday, and has still been leaving the house after getting off work twice during the week. She still only have the same two friends that she mostly talks to daily. She still seem to ignore our son more than I think she should.(i.e. When she gets home after work and he is still up, she is on the phone when she walks in and continues that conversation over an hour at times, while on facebook on the computer. He leaves me to go to her, only to get ignored.) Also she has started picking up extra shifts in the day twice a week to make extra money, while leaving our son at her mothers. 49 or so days and counting and still not ONE dish washed by her! Although there aren't many, but still I end up washing the few she leaves. And I am still the only one that cleans up, after her and our son, in bathroom and common areas. I have mentioned already to her that she needs to clean after herself to no avail.

Although I don't mind taking the 10mins total to clean, how can I politely mention yet again the following:

That she needs to clean up more???

That our son is being affected by her ignoring him?

That leaving him late at night is probably not a great idea?

Or should I not mention any of the above?

Should I start to not be around, at night, as to not enable her leaving him?


Thanks!
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 04/06/12 07:29 PM
Btw, she has not mentioned anything about divorce or moving out anymore since 1 month ago. She seems to be comfortable being separated, irresponsible, and to not have to answer to anyone.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Divorce & Depression - 04/09/12 09:53 PM
The cleaning is a symptom of the greater issue. Her being absent.

Do you get along with the mother-in-law ?

This is what I am talking about with the enable.

She right now gets to do what she wants. When she wants. She can make choices that affect you and your son. Without communication and agreement with you. She uses you and your mother-in-law. So she can party. Do what ever then come home and she knows that you will pick up her load for her. And if you cannot then she dumps the boy on her mom.

If you get along with the mother. Then you need to nip this babysitting in the bud. You also need to call her out on her responsibilities as a mother.

And yes I would dump your son on her when you know she is hung over. When she is tired. When she plans on going out.

As the concern of OM does not affect your thoughts either way.

When you get to the point that you can no longer take this crap behavior from her towards you and your son.

Sit her down.

And very calmly explain to her that you no longer have faith in her as a wife and as a mother. Based on her not being consistent in her actions.

Tell her your moving in this direction. You are done with carrying the full load of being a father, husband and attempting to heal the marriage. You are done with pressuring her to be a wife and a mother. You are done with being with someone who does not want to be with you.

That your doing well because you are being honest with yourself. That you and your son will be fine. As your are done waiting and do not plan on waiting forever. She is free to go off and do what ever she wants. But she is no long allowed to do these actions under this roof.

Then get up and walk away.

I see you heading here.

How long it takes.

Thats up to you to decide.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Divorce & Depression - 04/09/12 09:57 PM
This free's you to fully commit to yourself and your son.

And to heal.

This also free's her to decide what she wants to do with her life.

For if she wants to be with you. She will work hard at getting back with you.

See you have one goal.

Stop this repeating crappy relationship. With break-ups every few months. IT is not stable for everyone involved.

But to get there you need to nip this breakup.

Then you need to work on figuring out why it always happens.

She also needs to do this.

Then you both need to be honest with each other if you want to heal and fully commit.

Then learn the skills to fulfill this commitment.

That is the end goal.

But some times you need to take a tough path to get there.
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 04/10/12 03:35 PM
I do not believe in giving up on a marriage chatter. I'm a man of faith and there's only one excuse for giving up and until I find out that I will never give up. Will continue to endure in prayer and allow God to lead me, strengthen me and keep me strong. But I understand what you're saying which leads me to...

Update #3

I started not being available last week for her not to come home after work then leave me with our son again. Sooo Friday evening after work she didn't come home at all! And didn't come home im morning either. Called me about 11am asking all casual what we were doing? I kept the convo brief. Then of course after work Saturday evening she went out yet again leaving our son with her mom. This time I went out to eat and bowling with my brother, got home early(midnight) but left son at her mothers. I was tired and slept in bed this night. Much to my surprise when she gets home at the usual time of 6am. She asks me to get out the bed. I refused. She asked several more times. I refused. She stated its her bed she bought and its her room and that she doesn't want me in there without our son. I simply left. But first told her I didn't appreciate that and that I'm not walking around telling her not to use the couch, office computer, kitchen appliances, etc. Also mentioned to her again that I need help with bills, which she hasn't paid one dime towards since Feb 18. She stated that she cant cause now she pays her mom $40 a week to keep our son cause she's now working EVERY morning in addition to her evening shifts. I also told her of my displeasure with her ignoring and leaving our son. She told me I don't need to be worried about anything concerning her. I told her YES I do when it concerns our son. Then she said that she's moving out Monday or better yet later today! I said fine then went back to bed before church. Also texted her stated I'm simply concerned about her and most importantly our son.

After church I went to get son from her moms cause she work every Sunday morning too. They had an Easter egg hunt so I stayed for awhile. Later in evening she got there and was just acting normal. Then she left with son to go home while I stayed to talk with her dad for 3 hrs! He revealed that he hope she changes her mind before its too late, I agreed. Then he mentioned something shocking. That his wife, her mother, and him has had issues intimately last year because of the following: Last year my wife was working in the morning like she is now but we decided it wan't worth the money or time so she stopped but while she did work her mom kept our son. In addition to her other two grandkids. Her dad told me that she would be so tired that after he gets off and want to be intimate that she would say shes tired from keeping the kids and go to sleep. And that he almost cheated on her because of it! And that things got better when we decided she wouldn't work in day. Fast forward to now. He is concerned yet again because of same thing.

Then yesterday after work I went home, she mentioned we need to talk later. About two things. Later came and she stated that our son might need counseling because he has started back peeing after he was completely potty trained already. He even, I hate to say it, pooped outside at her moms twice in past week! Something he has never done. I told her this is all a direct result of whats going on with us and that he needs more attention! She boldly stated she needs money and will NOT stop working in the mornings. I said at the cost of our son being hurt by it? She again stated she needs money and will not stop.

Also she stated her plans to help with bills for a few months while attempting to save enough money to move out in June/July, get her own cell phone line next month, and get money for divorce lawyer after she moves out. Then politely asked if I would be fighting for custody of our son. I simply stated we will cross that bridge when we get there. She obviously took it as a yes. And also said she doesn't want me talking to her parents which I thought was amusing. And stated that's all she wanted to talk about.

As stated early I am open to all advice but definitely won't follow advice that conflicts with my faith. And abandoning a spouse in a tough time in not something I will do. Also won't force her to stay. So from here on my sole focus will be on God, Being there for my son, and continued self improvement.

I get along very well with ALL her family. They LOVE me. And the few I have talked to since have all stated that they feel bad and don't think she is right or making good decisions.

I will point out that almost none of her friends know why the break up as she's told them all that WE broke up and that it just didn't work out. Odd cause I had no say so and am completely against separating. But I believe that she can avoid judgmental opinions and chastising by her friends if they all believe it is mutual.

Her dad and mom love me though and are also completely against their daughters decision. I do agree that they are enabling her though. By keeping our son at the drop of a dime for her. Don't know if its my place to tell her mom not to do it though. Cause her 20 yr old sister who has 2 kids is the one who actually agrees to keep him on the weekends while she goes out although her mom ends up looking after him for obvious reasons.

Thanks for reading. Again I appreciate all the advice, it has been very helpful to fellowship with like-minded people. Am also still looking for more women to chime in.
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 04/10/12 03:59 PM
@ Chatter

I understand what you mean though about me enabling but I have no other choice. My faith doesn't teach me to abandon my spouse even if she abandons me, it doesn't teach me to react to her based on how she treats me, instead teaches me to respond to hate with love, to anger with temperance, to bitterness with forgiveness, to irresponsibility with responsibility, to ignorance with silence, to chaos with peace, to fear with bravery, to doubt with assurance, and to hopelessness with FAITH. Yes I know our situation seems hopeless but anything is possible with God.

I am not to take her behavior as personal. She has to answer for her own sins and me for mine. I can only control me and how I respond to her. So if she wants to separate and will not submit to me as her husband, I will continue to love her the Godly way even at the expense of my own happiness because when I replace my happiness with Gods will, I then receive JOY through my proven faith in God. And joy is not a feeling that changes with circumstances but happiness does. Yes I am unhappy with her plans to leave our marriage, yes I am unhappy with her selfishness and irresponsible behavior, yes I am unhappy with her choice to not love me anymore, yes I am unhappy with her depression, but I know that I receive joy from giving up my own happiness. And joy lasts forever.

So as mentioned earlier, I will continue my focus on God, and allow him to lead and order my steps in life. I know he will take care of me through these difficult times. And I will come out of this better than before.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Divorce & Depression - 04/10/12 04:30 PM
I did not say give up.

Reread what I wrote.

You will see it is the opposite.

Since you think every thing I write is pushing that, I will stop posting advice to you.

But I will give you this advice once again.

Do not let your son leave the house. And cut out the babysitting.

" You are free to leave. But I have decided that our son will stay in his home" Do not set up the environment where her parents raise your child. Man up and get you boy home. And he does not leave the house without your approval. The house is his safe environment. No where else.

And the next time she crawls home at 6AM. Do not leave the bed. Tell her it is unacceptable behavior. And she can go sleep where ever. Do not move.

A wise man from here once said

How I handle these tough times will teach my kids how to deal with adversity -- with persistence and character.

My family needs a leader right now, and it AIN'T gonna be my wife. Yes, shame on her for what she's doing, but SHAME ON ME if I let it affect me so much that I don't lead my family thru this. I can handle it. STRENGTH and HONOR.
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 04/11/12 03:39 PM
@Chatter, I don't think that about all you're writing buddy. Have agreed with most of what you've wrote actually. And no I will not be allowing her to take our son. And yes I an contemplating talking to her dad about this babysitting.

When you get to the point that you can no longer take this crap behavior from her towards you and your son.(I will never get to this point God willing)

Sit her down.

And very calmly explain to her that you no longer have faith in her as a wife and as a mother. Based on her not being consistent in her actions.(Faith is exactly the opposite, believing in something even when it looks BAD!)

Tell her your moving in this direction. You are done with carrying the full load of being a father, husband and attempting to heal the marriage. You are done with pressuring her to be a wife and a mother. You are done with being with someone who does not want to be with you.(Already had this convo.)

That your doing well because you are being honest with yourself. That you and your son will be fine. As your are done waiting and do not plan on waiting forever. She is free to go off and do what ever she wants. But she is no long allowed to do these actions under this roof.(Already told her she's free to do whatever, but I will wait forever God willing, or at least 6mth-1yr after finalized divorce, will not be giving my wife who Christ expects me to love as he loves the church, an ultimatum.)

And the next time she crawls home at 6AM. Do not leave the bed. Tell her it is unacceptable behavior. And she can go sleep where ever. Do not move.(Well if my son is in bed then I am not going to allow a fight to start, waking him up just because I want to stay in bed.)

My family needs a leader right now, and it AIN'T gonna be my wife. Yes, shame on her for what she's doing, but SHAME ON ME if I let it affect me so much that I don't lead my family thru this. I can handle it. STRENGTH and HONOR.(Good advice, but it is not affecting me that much now, I will lead my family through this through God who strengthens me and if he's not leading me somewhere then I will stay put.)

I didn't mean you were instructing me to give up either. Was simply stated that I won't. And will do whatever within God's guidance to keep my family together.

This was from another thread and it brought me to tears...

"The real pain will come when I have to look into S's eyes and see his sadness, hurt, and abandonment. Poor guy. He's tough, but very sensitive. I will be there for him as best I can. I can't take away that pain though. He will have to deal with that himself... Making me cry."
Posted By: Crazyville Re: Divorce & Depression - 04/15/12 12:30 AM
PC, I've been reading your posts. I can relate to your sitch (or perhaps your wife's sitch moreso.) I can also relate to your Christian beliefs.

You wanted some more women to chime in. You might regret asking that, in my case. smile But your W's not asking for advice, so we only have YOU to work on. One of the principles of DB is making yourself into a man that only a fool would leave. Are you that man? REALLY? Have you gotten the plank out of your own eyes so that you can see clearly the speck in hers?

My sitch: My H claims to be a devout Christian. He goes to church every Sunday, sometimes two services/two churches; sometimes also on Saturday night; Bible study once a week besides; men's fraternity; etc. He could talk just as good of a game as you do. And then there's his REAL life. I've witnessed his pornography, his lying, his annihilation of my character to his family behind my back, his email exchanges with his college sweetheart, his valuing his siblings and kids (my steps) over me, defending them and attacking me, his irresponsibility with finances, etc. He beats his chest about being God's ordained "leader of the family," then runs away with his tail between his legs whenever an issue arises, leaving me to carry it on my own.

I've read your beginning post again, after reading your most recent. What I pulled from it was: you lived together and had sex before marriage; you had a child before marriage; you got married in the courthouse rather than a church; she confronted you about her feelings but you chose not to do anything different; you pushed her away at times when she attempted to be intimate because you were angry with her; you find it difficult to do your 180's.

I appreciate your honesty in your first post, and I'm not trying to wring you out to dry for your known sins. But from my perspective, it all sounds very hypocritical. You speak so strongly of being a devoted Godly man, but I'm not seeing that played out in your day-to-day life. Even the "effort" you're putting into cleaning the house and taking care of your son comes off as being a real chore. You have an issue with doing the cleaning, and you've mentioned your resentment. This is not a Godly response (re: prodigal son.) This is also an issue I have with my H -- my position is that if it's something you'd still have to do if your W wasn't in the picture at all, then I don't feel like it's something that you get kudos for doing now.

From my experience with my H, "talking" about being a Godly man when you're not living a Godly life is a real turn-off, to both the relationship and a spiritual life.

Granted, your W is being very immature and irresponsible. She is not leading what anyone would describe as a Christian life. Though I doubt she's even making that claim herself. I'm wondering if you helped create that sitch? Your W was asking for affection and you were denying it because of her going out, then you simply re-enforced her desire to go out where people were attentive and kind to her. So she did that more. So you got more angry. So she did it more. Etc., etc.

So, some specifics...

If you don't want your S going to MIL's, then set him up for scheduled daycare, either commercial or other arrangements. You can't fix FIL/MIL's problems.

Stay in the master bed. If she doesn't like it she can sleep somewhere else. If S is in the bed, too, (maybe he shouldn't be? That's an intimacy killer.) then gently pick him up and put him in his own bed/bedroom, then return to the master bed yourself. She can sleep somewhere else if she wants.

As for chores, if I had been carrying the majority of the load for most of our relationship, and H started doing "his share," I could really care less. All that would do is keep us at status quo and not make things worse. But when you're already at the bottom, what difference does that make? Are you familiar with the concept of love banks, with emotional deposits and withdrawals? You are highly overdrawn, and simply making the minimum payment is not going to help your sitch.

Bottomline, I feel like you're spending too much time focusing on your W's behavior and wrong-doings, and not focused enough on your own. What is your REAL motivation for getting her back? What are your 180's? Other than doing chores, how is "focusing on God" playing itself out in your day-to-day life?
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 04/26/12 06:22 PM
Thank you!!!! I do not regret your honesty! I need it.

I hope I don't miss responding to all your valuable info but I thought that I already laid out my imperfections. And what I've learned about the things I was not doing as a Godly husband. I admit, complete failure in the most important aspect of simply loving my wife. From what you've mentioned, I am not the same as your husband. Far from him. What I have not done as a husband, LOVE my wife. What I did do, was everything else, granted it doesn't matter much if they aren't receiving what they want. But I have handled mostly everything in 5yrs of our relationship as far as the decision making is concerned. ALL the finances, ALL the household decisions, ALL the financial planning, ALL the choices in purchases, heck, I even decorated our home. Lol. I always pleaded with her to take some of the mental load off of me by paying some bills or deciding on some things, etc. She never did mostly, always leaving things up to me.

My faith was not so strong until one year ago. Before then I simply lived life as most. No church or anything. But during my spiritual growth I have never judged or criticized her or forced any belief on her. Going to church does not guarantee a place in heaven for anyone. And getting married in a church does not guarantee it either. We were married by our Pastor. Doesn't matter where because the Church is not a building, it is a body of people. I've been focusing of her through this board in an attempt to get advice about how to deal with her. And have gradually been learning thanks to you all that its not about her, its all about me! Deal with me and all else will follow.

Yes I do talk a good game I've been told. Lol. But I know I am imperfect and am very quick to admit my mistakes so that I can strive harder to make better. Even preachers, pastors, priests, are very imperfect so will you tell them to get the plank out of their own eyes? No one is perfect. Its how you deal with things. None of the things you mentioned correctly explains what a devout Christian is. Which is why we have so many people choosing to not go to church because of the people they see who are supposedly Godly people. Plain and simple a devout Christian always reflect the fruits of the spirit: Love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. You might not see them all but most of them. Especially LOVE, for God is Love and if someone claims to be Godly they have no choice but to love. Don't have to like people but are required to love if Christ is in you. Even those who hate you, use you abuse you, whatever, God is still Love, and when hate dwells within you for any reason it is directly opposite of God.

I felt like she would be a fool to leave me before, part of the reason why I didnt think she would leave which also was part of the reason why I didnt try as hard to keep her. But since the split and the dream i had, I realize the only thing i was completely doing wrong was not loving her. I've been dealing with my anger and not holding anything in so I've felt better about things. Of course there's other small things but they never caused any issues and were quickly resolved.

With all the issues I mentioned about her and some that I've even not mentioned, I have been by her side always! Never left, never turned my back on her, was with her through countless nights of crying, and feeling depressed, and worrying about her parents, and nightmares from past memories, and not to mention the ATTITUDE that she has, VERY fiesty and snappy. No patience with me or our son, and this was shown several times daily. I might not have had all the answers but I definitely never ran away. Just simply felt like I was there with her through all the issues she had but with the ONE issue I had she abandoned me. As mentioned before I knew I was being as affectionate as she wanted. Didn't know why but I knew. Even asked her many times to be patient with me and help me, to no avail. If she wanted to be intimate it was either her way or NO way. And this actually applied to other things as well.

Use to find it difficult at first but not anymore with the 180s thanks to many of you. I do love your honest wording on the things I've written. The chores, yes, only come off as sounding as such. I do not do them in vain or with her in mind, but because they need to be done simply. It is very effortless for me to do chores. It only takes all of 5mins to do those dishes and 10-15mins to clean other areas. So forgive me if it came off sounding like a burden for me but it is far from that. I have lived on my own for over 10 yrs, and grew up with 5 sisters, so I'm accustomed to taking care of myself without effort. I only mentioned the dishes with hopes of someone explaining more about "her" actions. Again, I eventually realized its not about her. Lol.

Also with taking care of son, again very effortless for me! I'm just fine with him. Only mentioned these things with hopes of someone explaining why "she" doesn't feel inclined to be more responsible. Again, its not about her but me. Just get frustrated with seeing him have a strong desire for love and attention and affection and her refusing to give it to him. Sounds a lot like me I realize. So I definitely understand her pain.

What I mentioned about resentment was that I subconsciously resented her. Keep in mind, I had NO CLUE that I didn't have enough self control to not allow my anger to affect how I treat her or anyone else for that matter. Anger seeps into cracks though like a gas or liquid. I thought I was 'tough enough' to handle my disappointments with her. I was WRONG. So yes even my subconscious anger/resentment was ungodly. I know that. But as I mentioned before, we are not expected by God to be perfect Christians, hence Jesus Christ. The entire reason he died was to pay the price for the sins God already knew we would be committing.

I dont believe I requested any kudos for the actions I've exhibited over the past few months. But self improve is self improvement. Regardless of if it was something that would need to be done anyway. Fact still remains that she usually did the dishes, I eventually became complacent with that which caused me to not have a strong desire to do them anymore. And breaking out of that 'funk' is self improvement. And not easy to do after 5yrs of habitually not doing something. Kudos or high regard is taken out of context anyway these days, just like LOVE. Kudos nowadays are given to someone's facebook update about eating fish for dinner! Lol, they get tons of likes, etc for that but it isn't ok to be proud of breaking a bad habit?

Living a Godly life lies in the eyes of the beholder. As far as I'm concerned believing in Jesus, the son of God, and that he died for our sins and rose again, then being sure to repent of your sins and trangressions both know and unknown, then studying the word of God, fasting, going to church as often as possible to fellowship with fellow believers, and prayer, then applying what God says to every situation in your life as much as you can, so much so that when people see or think about you the following descriptions about you come to mind: Love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. THIS is what I believe to be a devout Christian and living a Godly life. Being perfect, not making mistakes, not losing focus, not falling down, being flawless, none of these things are required to be living a Godly life. Living a Godly life is about being made whole by balancing life's obstacles with the word of God.

You are correct my wife is not making that claim anymore, has stoppped going to church as mentioned earlier, and is in full rebellion mode against God, myself, and anyone else who conflicts with her decision.

And YES of course I helped to create our separation. Never said otherwise. But at the end of the day everyone has to answer to God ALONE. I cannot tell God that my wife forced me to rebel against him. Same with her, I am not ultimately responsible for any of her actions and the way she responds. She is just as I. Her going out and all the other displeasing actions all fall under my feeling of being disrespected by her. Understand after separation that her disrespecting me is ultimately disrespecting God who commands a wife to revere(respect) her husband and my refusal to LOVE her was ultimately my refusal to LOVE God since God is LOVE. So I have learned a lot from this ordeal and actually thank God for allowing our separation so I can become the man he meant for me to be. Would not have otherwise.

I don't mind him going to her moms. She takes good care of him. Just 'wanted' him to have more time with his mom but if she is refusing to them again, thats on her. I do not believe I am making minimum payments as you said. Most of my self improvements are things my wife will never see because as I mentioned before we hardly EVER see each other. My day starts with gym, food, then work at 7:30am, get off at 4:30pm, go get son from her moms, she is already back at work by the time I get to her moms. Go home with son, or to park, or to my moms, or back to gym, or to church, then go home if out, eat, put him to sleep between 8-10pm, then I fall alseep between 9-10:30pm Mon-Fri. And she gets home after 10pm nightly if she comes home at all. On Sats she sleep till afternoon, I usually get up and go somewhere with son, go home a couple hours later where i usually see her shortly, and same on Sunday. So all the things I'm doing to better myself and strengthen my faith she never sees, and I don't care if she does anymore.

Yes I use to consume myself with all her behavior but that ended long ago. Yes I'm very observant so I still notice/keep up with her behavior but for one main purpose though. To document for custody purposes.

Focusing on God helps me a lot!!! It helped me to be friendly last Saturday when I ran into her at the mall with our son and 3 guys that I didn't know, it helps me to not cry when my son wakes up at night asking for mom, it helps me to not cry when she ignores him to talk on the phone and get on facebook, God helps me when sometimes I'm just waking up at 5am to go to gym and she's just getting home even during the week when I thought she was sleep with our son. Its helps me to remain calm when she tells me that I'm a piece of crap, and that's why my dad was killed because he and his son is worthless. It helps to remain faithful to her even now, after 5yrs. He helps me to remain calm when she talks about me on the phone in our home to her friends. Focusing on God is my only option my friend. I couldn't make it without him. I would have gone crazy long ago. My 180s mostly included nothing but continuing to allow God to lead my life, improving myself in all aspects, and being there for my son even more so now. Training him up to be a Godly man of Love, Respect, and Honesty, among other things. There's a saying that if you do not know any better then you cannot do any better. Knowledge is something I've been on a daily quest for and has been crucial to my self improvement. And constant prayer for wisdom.

I understand emotional deposits. I am not highly overdrawn though. I understood her, kept commitments, was very clear on what I expected, as was she, showed integrity, and as mentioned earlier always corrected my mishaps when known. Attention to the little things was not so superb though as you know...

But I so much appreciate your response. One of the big reasons I wanted more women to chime in.. I will be praying for you as well.

p.s. Still processing this not leaving the bed stuff. Have yet been able to line up this idea with the word of God. So bear with me on that. Lol.

Thanks again.
Posted By: PrinceChristian Re: Divorce & Depression - 04/26/12 07:49 PM
Also, @Chatter and others. A big reason I originally started focusing so much on her after the separation was because of her depression history. Which I have finally determined that she is very likely as Chatter mentioned, Bipolar, and in the mania stage for almost two months, have been praying much that her depression stage doesn't shake things up too much when it hits. The problem I have is that obviously me or anyone else cannot convince, or suggest to her to get counseling or seek help. She has not taken any of her anxiety/depression pills since Feb. And does not believe anything is wrong with her. Prayers please.

Thanks
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